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Ayaan Hirsi Ali: The Growing Threat of Radical Islam — Transcript

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0:00I think we're in a worse place today
0:03than we were in 2001 and so it is for me
0:07a bit of a nightmare that Europe is
0:10resembling the sorts of streets and
0:13places that I left when you have a
0:16scenario where violent radical white
0:20supremacists face off with radical
0:24islamist jihadis then it's not Europe
0:28anymore how do you deal with that
0:30without becoming the thing you don't
0:31want to
0:32become aan hery welcome back to the show
0:36so good to have you back uh I don't want
0:38to waste any time at all you uh someone
0:41who's been talking about one issue for a
0:43very long time uh which was the islamism
0:47and Islam and the other issue about
0:50which you're increasingly talking about
0:51is
0:52Christianity um and the role of faith
0:54and society as well I want to start with
0:56the first of those two because since the
1:00days after 9/11 which feels like it was
1:03a different world when it was a
1:06different world you've been trying to
1:08raise the alarm you you've risked your
1:10life friends of yours have been murdered
1:12because they were talking about the same
1:15thing where are we in relation to that
1:17issue in Western Europe United States
1:20the West more
1:21generally um well thank you very much
1:24for having me first it's lovely to be
1:25here uh again I think for the second
1:27time mhm um where are we on the threat
1:32of radical political Islam I think we're
1:35in a worse place today than we were in
1:392001 we've spent trillions of dollars
1:43and a lot of blood and I think we have
1:47come I'm coming to the
1:49conclusion uh what is wrong with our
1:53Western leaders do we have some kind of
1:55curse on us that prevents us from seeing
2:00um the
2:02determination of the radical political
2:05islamists who want to spread their
2:08message which ultimately is the
2:10establishment of an Islamic State based
2:13on Sharia law so initially with 2001 the
2:17news broke with those islamists who
2:21wanted to accomplish the objective of
2:24establishing an Islamic State through
2:26violence we took passenger planes they
2:29knocked out the Twin Towers they were on
2:31their way to knocking down the White
2:33House and they managed to knock a wing
2:36off the Pentagon and they didn't want to
2:37stop this they wanted to use Jihad as a
2:41means of shock and
2:43awe
2:45and we I think got trapped by if you
2:50remember it you're probably too young to
2:51remember that but it was quite
2:54spectacular and it was history
2:58changing and and the reaction from the
3:02United States and the rest of the West
3:03Was to meet them with
3:06Force because of the military supremacy
3:10of the United States of America the rest
3:12of the West it was relatively easy to
3:16subdue and eliminate the structures of
3:19al-Qaeda to bring down Osama Bin Laden
3:22as their leader and when out of that
3:25group a new group through Al sarawi the
3:28Islamic State Ed and hijacked territory
3:33captured territory in Iraq and Syria we
3:37did the same thing again we were
3:39confronted with this determination of
3:41these groups to use brutal force and
3:44they were met with military U deterant
3:49they would remov there is no structure
3:50called the Islamic State of Iraq and
3:52Syria anymore but what over the years we
3:55have failed to see is the other side The
3:58Da Side so not the jihadists but within
4:01the
4:02islamist um political groups um they
4:08is the in my view much stronger more
4:12Insidious more Sinister Group which
4:14tries to expand and reach that objective
4:18of establishing an Islamic
4:20State through da and da is basically the
4:24plan it is to uh bring Muslims the those
4:29people who identify as
4:31Muslim uh to transform them from just
4:37religious people people who identify
4:40with the faith but who are not political
4:42into Political tools for the objective
4:45and then take it one step further and
4:47convert non-muslims and on top of that
4:50to islamize institutions it's a longterm
4:53plan it's gradual there is a hybrid form
4:57there are some people within the
4:58islamist circles who say we should use
5:02the gradualist means and then when the
5:05opportunity is right we should use Force
5:08so all of these three flavors if you
5:11will of islamized society working
5:14towards this objective of a Sharia based
5:17society be it local Regional or Global
5:21they exist they're expanding and we are
5:24standing by and watching this happen in
5:29Trad traditionally non-muslim
5:31territories in traditionally Christian
5:35uh or judeo Christian
5:37societies um we've seen them make
5:40attempts like this in
5:41India again watch the push back there in
5:46China um the way the Chinese government
5:49is dealing with islamist sedition is
5:53absolutely abhorent and that is
5:55something we in the West can only
5:58condemn we do not want to take our
6:00Muslim communities and put them in camps
6:04and um you know enslave them torture
6:08them crepe them sterilize them uh these
6:11are against every principle we believe
6:15in
6:17um
6:19and looking at that extreme of what the
6:22Chinese Communist par is doing to the
6:25weers and then looking at the other side
6:28of you know when uh the islamists use
6:32violence we're going to go after those
6:35individuals who use violence and their
6:36organizations and put that down but do
6:40nothing else about the spread of the
6:42ideology I think we have opened
6:44ourselves up for um the
6:48establishment of a huge infrastructure
6:52of Da and so this it's like a cancer
6:57this uh the islamist message and the
7:00Agents of dawa the islamists who are
7:02pushing it are in our education system
7:04they have their own schools and Islamic
7:07centers and mosques and madrasas they've
7:09now infiltrated universities they are in
7:12political parties and so
7:15through perfectly peaceful and legal
7:17means they have established themselves
7:20and here we are sitting back and
7:22watching this and I think one of the
7:25most shocking things you see today in
7:272024 on our streets um um is this um
7:34chanting of genocidal slogans at Jewish
7:38communities in Europe in the United
7:41States in Britain in France in Germany
7:44for the Jewish Community today it feels
7:47like it's the
7:481930s and this is islamist driven
7:51anti-jewish
7:52propaganda and so I find uh when I first
7:57came in here I said oh goodness I'm
7:59miked up again to talk about the same
8:01things I was talking about what in 2001
8:05don't we ever learn you know my first
8:08experience on camera was in the
8:10Netherlands it was a program called
8:12random team uh where there was two long
8:17benches full of you know members of the
8:19audience who speak and there were young
8:22Jihadi men snarling at me and uh back
8:26then my friend uh um Naima Tah uh who I
8:30I think is still in the Netherlands and
8:33she and I were educated in the
8:35Netherlands we were our backgrounds were
8:38Muslim and we had come to accept and
8:42admire the principles and the values of
8:46the country we lived in and we were
8:48there sitting and defending them and
8:49these guys were really snarling at us
8:52and I look back to that moment what she
8:54and I were talking about and over time
8:56many other ex-muslims and peaceful
8:58Muslims have joined us
9:00and it's the same thing and the problem
9:02is just getting bigger and bigger
9:06and just first of all can I just fact
9:08check you we're not too old to remember
9:11911 sadly but thank you for the
9:13compliment but thank you for the
9:15compliment I remember very well and I
9:17think it was clear that the world
9:18changed fundamentally at that moment I
9:21suppose you know we've seen in the UK
9:23only in recent days the election of uh
9:26clearly I mean people who uh stand for
9:29the green party a local counselor who on
9:32being elected give his first speech
9:34which he ends with the words Allah abbar
9:36free Palestine Etc nothing to do about
9:38the local Council that he's elected to
9:41represent this is a win for the people
9:43of H
9:47[Applause]
9:48who we will not be silent we will raise
9:52the voice of we will raise the voice
9:57of and I just think the there all sorts
10:00of other markers that people can see
10:03what you're talking about with their own
10:04eyes and from the people people are very
10:06afraid of talking about this issue
10:09but behind closed doors everybody knows
10:13what's going on to what extent has our
10:17have our policies on mass immigration
10:19contributed to where we are or is it
10:22more that when people do come we fail to
10:25integrate them assimilate like how are
10:27we here
10:29so in my experience again to go back to
10:32those for me early days when I started
10:35to participate in this debate and say
10:37look here's what the threat is and what
10:38it looks like um the first obstacle I
10:43think to a broader Insight were was the
10:47uh members of the
10:49elite uh politicians academics
10:52journalists uh who said you know oh you
10:55poor thing uh you
10:57traumatized little girl from Somalia you
11:00don't understand you know we this open
11:02societies we're going to approach this
11:06uh the way we've been doing things for a
11:08good long time we sophisticated a lot
11:11and and that was through consensus and
11:13the the prevailing philosophy at the
11:15time was multiculturalism mhm and so the
11:19idea was if we give a little they will
11:21give a little and together we will go
11:25through this where they adapt and we
11:27adapt and we establish this beautiful
11:29Multicultural um
11:32societies immigration was a part of that
11:35debate where as we were having those
11:38conversations all over
11:40Europe um it was well assuming that this
11:46multiculturalist consensus building
11:48bridge building sophisticated wonderful
11:51way would work would
11:53be just from a rational perspective just
11:56from a numbers perspective wouldn't it
11:58be
12:00practical
12:01to uh stop
12:05immigration integrate or assimilate the
12:08word assimilation wasn't used it was
12:10integrated assimilation was considered
12:11to be an insult to to the Muslims and to
12:15the immigrants it had to it had to come
12:17from both ways in any case why don't we
12:20take the lot who are already
12:22here get to that Utopia of
12:25multiculturalism and then slowly you
12:28could talk about having more immigrants
12:30come in but that's not what in the end
12:34happened what in the end happened
12:36was um those who had come and their
12:41children who had been
12:44radicalized in this da infrastructure
12:47the mosques and the madrasas and in
12:51Europe they will continue they continued
12:54to broaden their parallel Society I
12:58don't know how else to describe it they
13:00have sort of sharia light ghettos and
13:03those were allowed to thrive but at the
13:06same time the borders were also flung
13:08open uh through the Asylum and uh
13:11Refugee system so now you
13:14have um the opposite of what was the
13:18desired outcome which is a group of
13:22mainly imams and other radical islamist
13:26Elites who have captured the heart
13:29hearts and minds of Muslim immigrants
13:31and their children who are saying do not
13:34integrate do not assimilate reject the
13:37values of the host country and then
13:40everyone who comes in they're the ones
13:43in town they're the ones who bring them
13:44in bring them into the mosques and
13:46radicalize them so you have this Paradox
13:48where there are refugees from Syria Iraq
13:52Afghanistan Sudan Somalia were not at
13:55all islamist they're fleeing waron
13:58countries won because of sharia by the
14:01way and they come into the UK France
14:04Sweden Germany Etc and that is where
14:07they are taught to become through daah
14:10to become radical islamists aan and do
14:14you think part of the problem here is
14:17that
14:19islamism is so different from the way
14:22Western people see the world that we
14:25really can't understand it we really and
14:28as as a result of not being able to
14:30understand it we can't comprehend and
14:33intellectualize the dangers that it
14:35poses
14:37um the answer is um yes and no mhm I
14:43think we have an experience uh in
14:46Western Europe and in America with the
14:49intolerance or or the the uh the rise of
14:53intolerant ideas talking about national
14:55socialism for instance and the ideas in
14:58America that we used used to defend the
15:00institution of slavery and
15:02segregation we've come to see that those
15:04were absolutely horrible abhorent ideas
15:07and we've rejected them and part of uh
15:10showing that we we're atoning for the
15:13past is
15:16to uh the way we deal with a radical
15:20political Islam we recognize it for what
15:22it is there is plenty of scholarship now
15:25in every country to show that radical
15:28political Islam is totalitarian it is
15:31anti-human it's anti-freedom it's
15:33anti-woman it's anti-jewish
15:35um it's
15:37homophobic um and they show us over and
15:39over again you know when the Islamic
15:41State of Iraq and Syria was established
15:43they proceeded actually to carry out
15:45what it would be like to live in an
15:47Islamic State so we know that we know it
15:50not only through scholarship also what
15:51they readily show us when Hamas on
15:54October 7 went into uh Israel to attack
15:58the people that they hated the way they
16:00treated them part of that was defended
16:04with Islamic scripture or with the
16:06islamist ideology so it is no secret at
16:10all to any of our Western leaders
16:14regardless of where that lead moral
16:15leadership political leadership
16:17scholarship any kind it's absolutely
16:19clear to us what radical Islam entails
16:23but somehow we can't get ourselves
16:25disconnected from this idea of atoning
16:27for our past sin sins the sins of
16:31slavery of colonialism of causing the
16:34Holocaust and now here we are I remember
16:37a conversation I used to have openly
16:40with the mayor of Amsterdam where he
16:42plainly said we should not treat Muslim
16:45minorities in Holland the way the Jews
16:48were treated in the 1930s there's this
16:50constant reference and in my view
16:54absolutely wrong reference of the
16:58totality Aran terrible ideologies of
17:01Europe and
17:02America to say the only way to atone for
17:05it is
17:07to give a free pass to this new
17:11totalitarian ideology by the way
17:14islamism um is not it it's not
17:18like you know the Jews who are uh
17:23persecuted in the 30s uh there was never
17:25a Jewish Empire um Jews never held
17:29slaves
17:31um it there were Islamic Empires who
17:35held slaves and who segregated people
17:37and who continue to do that and yet
17:40somehow we we find
17:43ourselves uh inhibited um frigid when it
17:47comes to seeing this problem and dealing
17:50with it appropriately while we still
17:52have time and while there are still you
17:54know we have options that are open to us
17:57why do you think it is that we're so
17:58reticent about talking about this
18:00problem and then actually dealing with
18:03it and tackling it head on so what I can
18:06report to you I was a politician
18:08actually operating within a proper
18:11liberal democracy and a parliament
18:13within in in that context and if I give
18:17you an aggregation of all the arguments
18:19every person on on either side we don't
18:22have
18:22to one is with two sides in Holland we
18:27had several parties it's the
18:28proportional representation system so
18:30it's a bit more clouded uh but all of
18:34them were saying look we have a
18:36constitution and this constitution
18:38guarantees the following things it
18:40guarantees the freedom of religion the
18:42freedom of Association the freedom of
18:45speech um we have uh schools religious
18:49schools in the Netherlands paid for by
18:51the government and so if an islamist
18:54wants to open a school to indoctrinate
18:56we know he's going to program children
18:58with the totalitarian ideology of
19:00islamism he gets not only a license to
19:03open this school but he also gets money
19:06so we knew all of these things and this
19:08we can't stop it because our laws forbid
19:13us from doing anything other than if
19:15they cross over to the line of violence
19:18then we will go and pick those
19:19individuals up we'll surveil them uh if
19:23possible we'll bring them to court
19:25there's really not much else we can do
19:28in which which case these constitutions
19:30they sort of turn
19:32into you know what one American Scholar
19:35right after 911 called the Constitution
19:38is seen as a suicide
19:39pact and we're talking about
19:43indoctrination here and one of the most
19:46worrying things is it's not just
19:47refugees Who coming from war torn
19:49countries it's their
19:52indoctrinating our youth as well a
19:56perfect example of this is shamima beum
19:58a who left the UK at 15 to go and join
20:04Isis so the case of shamim ban is very
20:07very interesting and I think um I
20:10followed it a little bit in the UK and
20:12what I see again is a very legalistic
20:17conversation that is very much beside
20:19the point should this young woman come
20:21back to the UK should she should her
20:25citizenship be revoked it was revoked
20:28should she get her citizenship back nor
20:29she should not that's where the
20:33conversation is
20:36stuck when actually the conversation
20:38should be what on Earth was going on in
20:40Bethel
20:42green uh who is who are the grown-ups
20:46who programmed her and the other young
20:48women and the other young
20:50people and why are we not holding those
20:53grown-ups who programmed her accountable
20:57for for the fact that they did this uh I
21:00remember it was a few years ago watching
21:03her father give interviews where he was
21:06sort of throwing his hands up in the air
21:08and saying I don't know uh she ran away
21:12and I think the dads of the other young
21:14women were doing the same thing and I
21:16remember thinking that his story didn't
21:17add up he surely must have known what
21:20was going on with his daughter in his
21:22own household because really if you are
21:26if you are growing up as a female a girl
21:29in a Muslim household everybody knows
21:32what you're doing what your plans are
21:34and so my suspicion was all the
21:37grown-ups around these girls encouraged
21:40them and helped them and programmed them
21:43to go and join the Islamic State and now
21:45here she is she has gone through all of
21:47these Horrors and she's left sitting
21:50there holding
21:52the
21:53uh holding the ball yeah and all the GR
21:58s have gotten away with it and our
22:01society the British Society the American
22:03society and so on they're not going
22:06after the grown-ups they're not going
22:08after the people who are propagating the
22:11ideas and filling these young hearts and
22:13Minds with these ideas when I was in the
22:16Netherlands I was in Parliament I was
22:18threatened by I think he was 14 or 15
22:20year old student of a prop of some
22:22Islamic school he and his mates they
22:26sneaked away to Cheta to try and fight
22:31and and they came back saying it was too
22:32cold for them to fight which at the time
22:34everyone thought was hilarious but they
22:37continued on this trajectory of uh
22:40radicalism and the teenager was
22:43demonized the teenager was held
22:45responsible the teenager is the one who
22:47surveilled it's a teenager who was
22:49eventually I think sent to prison but
22:51not the grown-ups not the teachers um
22:55the parents the adults who had groomed
22:57this these young hearts and minds and
23:00that I think in the end is what is wrong
23:02with with our societies it is this
23:05hatred deep deep-seated hatred of who we
23:10are and and part of this atonement is
23:14pathological because it's really taking
23:16us to a place of collective suicide Ayan
23:20when we're going to talk about
23:22Christianity later but when you wrote
23:25your article uh you identified three key
23:28threats to the West which is something I
23:30I've been talking about as
23:32well great power
23:34authoritarianism islamism political
23:37radical Islam and woke ideology what
23:41you're talking about with the
23:42self-hatred is the woke ideology we've
23:44talked about Islam and the great power
23:45stuff is obvious you mentioned that
23:48we've got to do something while we still
23:50have time do we still have
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24:43show I think we have more time in
24:46America than we do in Europe and I say
24:50this because number one because of
24:52demographics you just mentioned a
24:54counselor someone who won an election
24:57mhm peacefully through the normal means
25:01and became the counselor and I think we
25:03are seeing this all over Europe because
25:06of the birth rate crisis because of the
25:09immigration crisis that uh if a Muslim
25:13party or Muslim parties were formed
25:15official ones not the green party and
25:17the labor party but real official ones
25:19that call themselves the Muslim party I
25:21mean U the there are these scenarios
25:24where they could easily win elections
25:27there are already stories in Germany of
25:29young people German white uh non-muslim
25:33uh kids thinking you know feeling left
25:36out and converting to Islam the effort
25:39the
25:40dawa to convert non-muslims into Islam
25:45and to islamize
25:46institutions is Relentless and it's
25:49strong and it's not met with a counter
25:52story or counter Force so I think that
25:55we have more time in America
25:58if we wake up now because of the crisis
26:00we're witnessing on universities and
26:03schools we're in New York now and today
26:06there is a d of a day of Rage the all
26:10Middle Eastern problems are transported
26:13here and so if Americans were to say
26:17Through The Ballot Box um we don't want
26:21this we understand what it is we don't
26:23want this we can turn this tide I think
26:26America could turn this tide I worry
26:28about Europe I worry about Europe also
26:32because of the rise of radical the very
26:35radical extreme right-wing parties and
26:39when you have a scenario where violent
26:44radical white supremacists face off with
26:48radical islamist
26:51jihadis then it's not Europe anymore and
26:55that this the scene you have there is a
26:57scene of chaos and violence and um add a
27:02splash of antifa and the radical
27:06organized communist uh
27:09organizations
27:11and legitimate authority of people in
27:16the center who are elected to keep these
27:19sorts of things at Bay fails to work and
27:22you get a balkanization you get a state
27:25of chaos and in a state of chaos if you
27:28look at other societies where this has
27:31happened somehow the radical islamists
27:33come on
27:34top uh hard to disagree with anything
27:38you said I suppose the question is uh
27:41one of the things that it's just
27:44incredible is um for example the UK
27:47recently banned hisb terer yeah um a
27:51group that was banned like in every
27:52Muslim country in the world the UAE had
27:55you know the foreign minister of the UAE
27:57he had this viral clip talking about
27:59warning Europe about terrorism and
28:01extremism whatever and it's it it very
28:05much goes to your point which is I
28:08suppose the question ultimately is
28:09you've identified this problem that we
28:11have but without going full
28:15authoritarian and saying well some
28:19religions are better than others and
28:21therefore not allowed or or or things
28:23along that line yeah how do you deal
28:26with the problem where as you say people
28:28may not be committing any Crimes by
28:31indoctrinating people into a worldview
28:33and then those young people end up
28:34committing crimes but but telling them
28:37you know believe on this or think this
28:38isn't a crime how do we if we were to
28:42try and deal with it how do you deal
28:43with it without becoming the thing you
28:45don't want to
28:46become and I think here is where time is
28:49so important the thing you don't want to
28:51become is either you fall into this
28:53chaos of cycle of violence where all
28:56these extreme groups um take over Main
28:59Street that's what you don't want you
29:01don't want them taking over um the
29:03levels of power um that's the kind of
29:06world where I come from um and why also
29:10I'm terrified of some of these
29:12developments because if you go to some
29:13of these ghettos where informal Sharia
29:15is applied that's what it looks like you
29:18have to visit these places um to see for
29:21yourselves some of the transformation
29:23that's going on on the streets and
29:25neighborhoods and tons of Europe
29:29so how do you sorry sorry am before you
29:31get into that what do you mean by the
29:32transformation of the towns and city of
29:35some of the towns and cities of Europe
29:37um you if you travel around Europe uh
29:40when I was doing this work this book pre
29:44um and this is back in 2020 I think
29:47matters are even more serious now uh you
29:50see things that you really don't see it
29:54you you can't just get it from reading
29:58about them or watching them in
30:00documentaries you've got to go to these
30:02places see the sites for yourself hear
30:05the sounds smell the smells and what you
30:08see is
30:11um yeah streets that look like they
30:14could be in Algeria or in Somalia or in
30:20laor in Pakistan um and not for instance
30:24one of the Salient things was not a
30:26woman in sight in part of Paris um and
30:31when uh I I obviously couldn't go and
30:34talk to some of these people but um the
30:37woman who was working with me would ask
30:39where are all the women they were chased
30:41out of the
30:43cafe and this chasing out of women out
30:46of a cafe is very anuran it is that's a
30:49transformation in my view because when I
30:51came in 1992 the opposite was true and
30:55so it is for me a bit of a nightmare
30:58that Europe is resembling the sorts of
31:01streets and places that I left and I was
31:03telling him I it was 1992 I was 22 I was
31:07covered up and when my Dutch friends
31:09asked me uh you know why are you
31:11frightened what's wrong with you I would
31:12say no you don't go out you know without
31:15some kind someone escorting you you
31:16don't go out without covering
31:18up and they would think I had I was an
31:21alien I had come from some other planet
31:23and in 1992 that was true I had come
31:26from a different planet but but now that
31:29planet that I had come to in Europe many
31:31neighborhoods resemble where I left and
31:34that just happened within three decades
31:37and so you can see when I talk about
31:39transformation that it doesn't take that
31:41long and so there were really some very
31:44serious Scholars one who comes to mind
31:46Walter lur uh Bernard Lewis um Nick Abad
31:51the American demographer they were all
31:54telling us um my husband Neil Ferguson
31:57back back in the day that if this
32:00demographic developments continue and we
32:02don't do anything about assimilation or
32:05there is going to be this flip um in
32:082040
32:102050 that's not too far away so Europe
32:14really has a lot of catching up to the
32:16situation in Europe is very alarming and
32:18it is totally possible to have Sharia
32:22law established it's now established
32:25soft Sharia in neighborhoods but
32:27established Through The Ballot Box so
32:29come back with me to how to preserve a
32:33liberal
32:34Society given this threat without
32:37resorting to illiberal illiberalism in
32:40response I think one of things we can do
32:43what's great about open societies open
32:45societies are always at risk of
32:48subversion all sorts of
32:50subversions but I think one of the
32:54strongest um characteristics of an open
32:58Society is its ability to learn from its
33:01mistakes and to learn from others and so
33:03part of what we need to do is really to
33:06go back to the philosophical table if
33:09you will
33:12and Define or figure out a way of
33:17defining um seditious
33:20ideologies radical political Islam is an
33:24ideology that says as loudly as it
33:27possibly can
33:28we want to completely abolish the
33:30existing order and we want to replace it
33:34with our own
33:37order that is a political Theory that's
33:40a political philosophy it's not a
33:42religion as defined in the American
33:44Constitution or any of the other
33:46European constitutions and how you deal
33:48with that
33:50definition that is I think where we
33:53ought to go now and this is not
33:56something uh we
33:58civilians can do it is the people we've
34:00elected to govern us to get together and
34:03do this and say is political Islam
34:07really a religion the way we Define
34:11Christianity or Judaism or Hinduism or
34:14Buddhism because these other religions
34:17are not organized and they're not loudly
34:19telling us that they're coming to
34:21replace us that's number one number two
34:23and I know this debate is ongoing in the
34:26UK um the
34:28Asylum it's International treaties in
34:31general International treaties
34:32especially asylum in
34:34Refugee um uh conventions the convention
34:38in 1951 and then European Council of
34:41Human Rights these International laws
34:44have to be reviewed and we have to adapt
34:48to the reality of today not the reality
34:50of 1951 or even in the 1960s it's today
34:55and the conclusion and if you ask me
34:57what is it that we should be doing that
34:59we're not doing is to review and remove
35:03repeal these International conventions
35:06or withdraw from them or come up with
35:08something else uh people were talking
35:10about uh a national human
35:13rights
35:15uh code or law um that goes back to the
35:19basics of Human Rights and that is
35:22individual based human rights so I think
35:26from of from the perspective of thinking
35:30about these things and the scholarship
35:32just the data Gathering we have all of
35:35these we need just to get out of this
35:38passive state that uh that we've adopted
35:41well I agree with you on that and you
35:43say it's the job of elected politicians
35:45sadly and this really is sad a lot of
35:47them watch this show and listen to
35:49people like you and they're actually
35:51looking for answers in places like this
35:53Believe It or Not which is not
35:54necessarily a good thing if you think
35:56about it but nonetheless and I still
35:59don't feel that we've got the answer
36:01because you say it's not a religion that
36:03we have worried about it's a political
36:05ideology but in a liberal Society we
36:08allow people to
36:09express uh political views I mean uh
36:13Americans until recently were very proud
36:15that they had Jews who tolerated Nazis
36:18marching through particular towns and
36:21this was considered an expression of
36:22freedom of assembly and freedom of
36:25speech so do we want to be a society
36:29that bans political views that we don't
36:32like that's the question right and I I
36:35don't disagree with your analysis I'm
36:37just trying to think how do we deal with
36:40the threat without allowing it to change
36:43who we are in in a way that means that
36:45we're no longer defending a liberal
36:46Society because we're not liberal
36:48anymore we're not liberal anymore no I
36:51think what we are seeing is a shrinking
36:52of the options we have so 20 years ago
36:55when we were saying 30 years ago 20
36:57years ago when we were saying look we
37:00are a liberal Society we have these laws
37:02we we should be able to our society
37:04should be able to withand these kinds of
37:08shocks that was one thing but the again
37:13rational thing to do was to say we're
37:16not going to change our laws and our
37:19structures and our attitudes but we are
37:21going to help them
37:24change uh and that hasn't happened and
37:26so now we've pushed push ourselves into
37:28a corner where we are either going to
37:32become we will have to get used to
37:35living under Sharia law um as many by
37:38the way uh people native people in
37:42Europe and and increasingly in America
37:45who haven't asked for it are forced to
37:47live with it because of the Reckless
37:49immigration policies of our the people
37:53we elected to govern us the majorities
37:56we elected to govern us
37:58and so the options we have are shrinking
38:01and I think we are now in a place where
38:02we have to
38:04say it's okay for people to hold
38:07whatever views they wish to
38:10hold but
38:13the
38:14licensing and we've talked about the
38:16license to open schools the license to
38:18open mosks the license and the charity
38:21statuses the money that these people get
38:24um who have is clearly s and now we we
38:28we understand we we know what we're
38:29talking about now I think that could be
38:31stopped I think we could
38:34Deport if they're not citizens we could
38:37dep we could pass laws to stop this uh I
38:42said the characteristic the strongest
38:44characteristic of an open Society is the
38:46ability to learn from our mistakes and
38:48from others there are other countries
38:50you mentioned the
38:52UAE uh you did not mention Saudi
38:56Arabia you know
38:58Singapore is another country there are a
39:00number of countries who are confronted
39:02this Saudi Arabia UAE Muslim countries
39:06who are confronted with this particular
39:10flavor of sedition mhm and they've been
39:13warning us for years and years
39:15saying you guys are committing suicide
39:18the way you deal with this problem is is
39:20wrong and I think it's time that we now
39:23start to heed what um what we've been
39:27told now that is on the elite level on
39:30the mass level I think you'll just have
39:33to go back to
39:37um you know what is the um uh what do we
39:43have that can
39:45inoculate young hearts and Minds against
39:48the message that the radical islamists
39:50are
39:52spreading we have a very beautiful old
39:56counterman message and it's called
39:59Christianity and the Christian message
40:02for those who are seeking spirituality
40:05were seeking a meaning and a purpose in
40:07life and who end up in the wrong hands
40:10and they end up in with the wrong Lots
40:12whether they are islamists or the
40:15woke um I think the churches uh the
40:18institutionalized established churches
40:22have a better uh more effective and more
40:26home
40:28made it's is very much in sync with
40:31their own
40:32identities um I think on on on that
40:35level there is um there's plenty um of
40:41Alternatives it's just that there's no
40:43one pushing it if you go go back to
40:45shamima
40:46beum um the only people who are trying
40:49to talk to shamima beam fill her head
40:54with and her identity and and and
40:57um you know answer maybe her questions
41:01what is it to be a good person how can I
41:03help Society is there something bigger
41:05than myself that I can sacrifice my life
41:07to the people who are giving these
41:09answers are the islamists it's the woke
41:12um it's just a wrong lot um what
41:17about you know good Aller boring
41:20Christianity if you want to put it that
41:22way love thy
41:25neighbor you know kind of the there is
41:28an existing story I know you've spoken
41:30to Jordan Peterson and others but the
41:33West has a lovely story to tell it's a
41:35story of life um it's a story that
41:38celebrates life it's a story that
41:40celebrates uh Merit that celebrates art
41:44that celebrates equality that celebrates
41:46and protects women it's a beautiful
41:48story to tell if we want to tell
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43:16now back to the
43:19show Ian do you think we're looking back
43:23because I was I think gtin was as well
43:25we love the whole new a aist Movement we
43:28don't need God we have logic science and
43:30rationality what do we need God for
43:33God's something that the peasants used
43:34to used to do in the early 20th and the
43:3619th century and all the other ones yeah
43:39you think looking back on it now that
43:40was a grave error of
43:42judgment I've come out to say it was a
43:45grave error of judgment and in fact I
43:47remember feeling um just massive rage
43:52when the American Association of
43:54atheists took away Richard Dawkin
43:58um they had honored him with a priz and
44:01and they took away the priz because he
44:03wasn't giving in to the woke um demands
44:07and so atheism went woke the American
44:11Association that is that is the adoption
44:13of a new uh nihilistic religion and um I
44:19know we talked a lot about humanism but
44:22again humanism number one is born out of
44:25Christianity it is Christianity saying I
44:28don't need to believe in God and I don't
44:30need to read the Bible because every
44:32kind of moral good that you've extracted
44:35out of those religious teachings I can
44:37now have it in a secular way um that's
44:41great but you haven't established
44:43anything close to um an institution that
44:49is competitive when it comes to what
44:53radical Islam and the other organized
44:57religions whether young or old um are
45:00doing and so I think right now the ball
45:02is on their Court the humanist Court to
45:04say well then get up and get going um
45:08but as they start going maybe we should
45:13use we should use the
45:16existing organizations that we have um I
45:19think we touched on Jonathan height MH
45:23um
45:25we I focus on radical Islam and its
45:28spread and and the threats that it poses
45:31but another big threat to our society is
45:34what is happening to the youth this
45:36explosion in anxiety depression um
45:40mental health illnesses addictions uh
45:43overdose and fental fenil and other
45:47drugs and uh I think Jonathan H made the
45:51remark that he sees this particularly
45:54and he was talking about young girls
45:57who are susceptible to uh suicidal
46:00ideation Etc and he said he sees this
46:05problem much stronger within liberal
46:08secular households and much less so in
46:12religious households I have seen this
46:15with the radical when you look at
46:18radical um individuals that are
46:21attracted to radical Islam the solid
46:24Muslim house if you grow in in in a
46:26Muslim house household and you the Quran
46:28is already familiar to you the teachings
46:30are already familiar to you already know
46:32the distinction between you know
46:34political and non-political Islam those
46:37ones do tend not to
46:39go um
46:42with with political Islam and so there
46:45is something in general about
46:50religion filling the spiritual needs and
46:54and the need for meaning in human life
46:56whether that religion is Judaism or
46:59Christianity or Islam or Buddhism or
47:01something else and so I think it was
47:04wrong
47:06of um the secular West to throw out
47:11Christianity uh as um quickly and as
47:16completely as we did it it's also as
47:19well you know you talk about you know of
47:21course spirituality is important and so
47:23on and so forth science isn't going to
47:25keep you warm at night and particularly
47:27when you're faced with you know things
47:30like failing Health you know failing
47:32health of loved ones etc etc but
47:35something else that religion gives you
47:37is a sense of community yes I don't I
47:40you know I don't find it a coincidence
47:42that you know Muslims call each other
47:44brother and sister and so much you know
47:46there's a real Comfort to that we need
47:49community and that's something the new
47:51atheists I don't think factored in
47:54really um
47:58I'll so the good depiction I think I
48:01would give of the new atheists was a
48:04whole number of new atheists I met who
48:07had read Infidel and would come to me
48:10and say I come from a household or I
48:12come from a community where I was
48:14subjected to religious intolerance
48:16almost as extreme or just as Extreme as
48:19the one that you went through and so in
48:22reacting against that it was out with
48:25religion and in with now this new
48:28community of atheists but as a new
48:31community of
48:33atheists I think we assumed quite a lot
48:36I think we assumed that simply by
48:38leaving behind religious
48:40intolerance um you will come out and you
48:43will shed Superstition you will
48:45appreciate reason and
48:48humanism and um and you you know you'll
48:51flourish there's really no need for um
48:56there's no need need for the
48:57establishment of a community or an
49:01institution or that it is all there you
49:03will know to find it because you're now
49:05Guided by reason and I think we failed
49:08to see that that's not how how things
49:11work and for a lot of those people who
49:13had left
49:15their intolerant religious backgrounds
49:19they fell into a void into loneliness
49:24into um yeah the lack of
49:28community and the people who are who
49:31came from um agnostic atheist or
49:35non-religious backgrounds are also
49:37finding themselves in modern times
49:39falling into the same you know lack of a
49:41sense of community lack of a sense of
49:44purpose and seeking and and getting lost
49:48and so I think that with
49:51my um friends who are still atheist and
49:54who still think that
49:58that atheism
50:02is reason reason uh can protect us from
50:06all of these
50:07threats I think we simply
50:11I
50:13underestimated
50:15uh and maybe even that's the wrong way
50:17of saying I simply didn't see it I just
50:19I only saw the
50:23negative um bad side of religion and I
50:27also made the mistake of going along
50:29with the Declaration that all religions
50:31are the same and in fact it is that's
50:35absolutely untrue it is all religions
50:37are not the same there are different
50:40religions that have gone through
50:41different developments and some
50:43religions are quite Superior to others a
50:46religion that tells you that it's all
50:48about death all you have to do is
50:50sacrifice yourself for the sake of Allah
50:53and in the end what awaits you is
50:55Paradise in its extreme form that
50:59religion is a cult of death mhm CU you
51:01just have to look forward to dying
51:03because the reward is going to come
51:04after you die that's a very very
51:06different religion that has in its
51:09foundations that the founder of the
51:11religion died so that you can live and
51:14that your sins are forgiven and so the
51:16story of rearth and the story of
51:18forgiveness and the story of love and
51:20Story of Love Thy Neighbor that's a very
51:22radically different story from from the
51:26story of Islam and so it is I think it
51:30was a bit juvenile um to promote the
51:34idea that you know all religions are bad
51:37all religions are stupid and also to
51:38negate perhaps the good side religion
51:41has some good
51:42things uh some good functions if you
51:45will uh and that's what we're now
51:49witnessing once in in the west more than
51:51anywhere else when you when you throw
51:54that out I just spent about 3 weeks on
51:57tour with Jordan Peterson as you
51:59mentioned uh hashing out some of these
52:02issues and one of the he brought me over
52:04to disagree with him and one of the
52:06things that I kept asking him and you
52:08know Jordan he answers in 20 minute
52:10paragraphs that don't necessarily
52:12address the central cor your question
52:13but one of one of the things I kept
52:15asking him in different ways at
52:17different points is do you believe in
52:18God and we had long back and forth about
52:20it reading your article about uh
52:23becoming a Christian I found it very
52:25interesting because you said many of the
52:27things you've said today uh I think your
52:29analysis is spot on in terms of a vacuum
52:33of belief creates alternative religions
52:36like wokeness but also creates the space
52:38for other
52:40more forceful religions that have a
52:43clear idea what they're about to come in
52:47what you didn't say in your article is
52:48that you believe in God do you I do
52:51believe in God yes and I said this to
52:53Richard Dawkins the other night when
52:57uh in the disent dialogues and I I I
53:00choose to believe in God I've been I
53:03found myself in that place of complete
53:06disconnection and despair and struggled
53:10with years and years of depression and
53:12tried to do it you know the way a good
53:15old atheist would do it by going to
53:17science and seeing psychiatrists and
53:19psychologists and I learned a lot from
53:21them I learned a lot about the human
53:23brain the human mind I learned a lot
53:25about addiction and all the rest of it
53:27but if you ask me now that I've come out
53:30of this depression what exactly
53:34happened I think it was when I
53:36surrendered to the idea that yes this is
53:39I am undergoing or going through a
53:42spiritual um as as one of the therapists
53:45put it spiritual bankruptcy and so I
53:47fell to my knees and prayed and it is
53:51only then I I felt this sense that
53:54something was lifting and something
53:56something was lifting because I was
53:57feeling connected to something much more
53:59powerful than myself and I don't know
54:01how to describe that and uh I followed
54:05that up with wanting
54:07more and um the choice
54:12of of becoming a Christian choosing
54:15Christianity course I grew up with Islam
54:18so I know what that holds and looking at
54:21the other you know Far Eastern religions
54:24I see some of the wisdoms there um
54:26perhaps too far away from me um but feel
54:31very much at home uh with Christianity
54:35and with the legacy of Christianity and
54:38so I I'm not ashamed or embarrassed
54:40about it but I do want to emphasize
54:43that's a
54:44personal and very intimate if you will
54:50uh decision and it's not something that
54:53I want to impose on others
54:56or um but I'll
54:59say if I if I see
55:03um let me rephrase it um in the past I
55:08would have discussions with people who
55:09would talk about the advantages of
55:11religion and I would just laugh at them
55:14and go along with people who are saying
55:16ah they're too weak too frightened in
55:18the dark too non that kind of thing and
55:20now I think from my experience I think
55:24there's a great deal of wisdom in there
55:25and that brings us us back to a sense of
55:27hum it brings me back to a sense of
55:29humility um but I am not standing on the
55:33streets uh with the Bible
55:37proclaiming the gospel but all goodness
55:41I think you would look great in one of
55:42those sandwich boards with with a
55:44megaphone and a
55:49bell
55:51yeah yeah yeah um and I think for public
55:55figur to come out and admit doubts and
56:00admit the things that they struggle
56:02with I think that's a form of moral
56:04leadership that uh we were perhaps some
56:08of us were too embarrassed to come out
56:11and and share and so there is there is
56:13something in
56:16um I
56:18didn't you know I didn't need any
56:20persuasion to say if you're a young
56:22person and you're struggling with the
56:24same things you feel it's it's all
56:27meaningless um it's okay for you to have
56:30these feelings and it's okay for you
56:32there is a way out there's there's a
56:34light somewhere there this is what
56:35worked for me I don't know if it will
56:37work for you but this is what worked for
56:39me I think that is again a very
56:41Western um civilization thing instead of
56:45punishing
56:46people um for their
56:50suffering uh because it's
56:52deviant um I think the compassionate
56:55thing to do is to say how can we uh what
56:58can we help what can we do together
57:00to uh to help you get better well one of
57:04the things that I'm really grateful for
57:05is I think in the uh one of the benefits
57:08of new technology is the ability to have
57:11discussions like this and I think older
57:14media like
57:16television was much more about sharing
57:19certainties you have two people 5
57:22minutes each or 3 minutes each or 20
57:24seconds each and you deliver your
57:26certainty about this you know there is
57:28no there is in these conversations we
57:31have the ability as you say to actually
57:33talk about what it is that you're
57:36thinking why you're thinking it where
57:38you're unsure what Journey you're on uh
57:41because that's actually I think where
57:43most people are I don't think most
57:44people live their lives through the
57:45prism of 20 second sound bites about
57:48their certainty about something most
57:50people are in the place of inquiry and
57:53openness to ideas I think um
57:56and so it's interesting to me I I
57:58suppose the the question is uh and again
58:01this is something I asked Jordan
58:02repeatedly is can you put the toothpaste
58:04back in the tube you know I call my
58:07generation the children of
58:09Dawkins how do you know but I also sense
58:13that a lot of people our age and and
58:15younger too are in the inquiry of of
58:18what is meaning what is purpose uh how
58:21do we connect to others and like you say
58:24it's unavoidably obvious and painfully
58:27obvious that a that vacuum that the new
58:31atheists were so looking forward to
58:33opens up the space for new things to
58:35come in that are not even going to be as
58:37good as what we had before I mean
58:38wokeness to me is an awful religion I
58:40mean one of the worst in many ways uh
58:43and then also in the geopolitical
58:45environment that we operate in and the
58:47global environment
58:49culturally we have challenges we have
58:52competitors and we have to ReDiscover a
58:55strength
58:56uh and confidence in our the values of
58:58our civilization or we will go the way
59:00of every civilization that has lost its
59:02way in the past yeah so I'll say if
59:05you're a young person and you want uh to
59:08know a great deal about biology read
59:11dokins and listen to Richard he has a
59:14great deal of um knowledge and wisdom uh
59:18to impart there if you want to
59:21understand um the roots of our
59:25civilization
59:26and how we got here and the meaning um
59:30you know putting the toothpaste back in
59:32the putting toothpast back in the tube
59:36um listen to Tom
59:39Holland um and
59:43see both men very much Western in fact
59:47both of them British
59:52um have this background in scholarship
59:56and taking their scholarships very very
59:58very
59:59seriously and these are the two
1:00:01individuals but I think they represent a
1:00:04whole um world
1:00:07of
1:00:09um a whole civilization that
1:00:13is that managed to uh dominate the world
1:00:18and and to um to lead the
1:00:23world because it's allows for that it
1:00:27allows for these different inquiries and
1:00:30perspectives and these these
1:00:32conversations and I think what you were
1:00:34talking on ear talking about earlier
1:00:36about the little bit of certainty you
1:00:39come in and you see your piece of
1:00:40certainty and then you turn it into a
1:00:42contest with winners and losers I think
1:00:45that
1:00:47um um created a sort of polarization of
1:00:51ideas if you are proor Dawkins you can't
1:00:53be poor Tom Holland which is of course
1:00:56nonsense um and so I think part of it is
1:01:00to bring young people back into the
1:01:03realm of for me actually the realm of
1:01:06reason and spirituality where they can
1:01:09coexist faith and reason where you say
1:01:11if you if you're
1:01:14seeking
1:01:15development uh and evolution and growth
1:01:18on this plane you go to this end of the
1:01:21library and if you're seeking it on this
1:01:23end you go that end of the library but
1:01:26the library is full of that Western
1:01:28library is full of all of this knowledge
1:01:30and wisdom and I think we've lost a bit
1:01:32of that aan thank you so much for coming
1:01:35on the show it's always a pleasure uh
1:01:37before we head over to our locals where
1:01:39our supporters get to ask their
1:01:41questions to you our final question is
1:01:43always the same what's the one thing
1:01:45we're not talking about as a society
1:01:47that we really should be
1:01:51restoration which is the title of your
1:01:53subag by the way so I'm glad you slipped
1:01:55that in more about what people can can
1:01:57find out that I think for for many years
1:02:00we've talked about what our problems are
1:02:02and it's good and we should continue to
1:02:04talk about what the problems are and
1:02:05diagnose them but perhaps now that we've
1:02:07come to understand most of them we
1:02:10should restore um our institutions we
1:02:14should restore um again the story the
1:02:17foundational stories these principles uh
1:02:20and celebrate them and uh yeah and I
1:02:23want to be a part of that restore the
1:02:26relationship between men and women
1:02:28restore the relationship between parents
1:02:30and children between the
1:02:33generations um there's a great deal of
1:02:35restoration work to be carried out I
1:02:37mean that is a great Mission and I think
1:02:39we're very lucky to have people of your
1:02:41caliber participating and we certainly
1:02:43aspire to to doing the same so thank you
1:02:45for coming on aan it's a great honor to
1:02:47have you back on the show and of course
1:02:49head on over to locals where we ask
1:02:50aayan your questions right now

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