YT YouTube2Text

YouTube2Text → Transcripts → Author Program: Phoebe Zerwick, "Beyond Innocence: The Life Sentence of Darryl Hunt"

Author Program: Phoebe Zerwick, "Beyond Innocence: The Life Sentence of Darryl Hunt" — Transcript

by Jimmy Carter Presidential Library · 6,527 words · 1,096 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

Open in transcriber Summarize with AI Download SRT/VTT

Full transcript

0:00wrote an award-winning series of
0:02articles for the Winston-Salem Journal
0:06that and along with the work of Hunt's
0:08attorney led to DNA evidence that
0:11exonerated Hunt. But, that's not the end
0:14of the story as as Phoebe tells it in
0:17her new book Beyond Innocence.
0:20It's It is the story of his life. You
0:23learn about Darryl Hunt. Phoebe's an
0:26investigative journalist, narrative
0:28writer, and college professor. Her work
0:31has been highlighted by organizations
0:33such as the Nieman Foundation for
0:36journalism at Harvard, the Investigative
0:38Reporters and Editors Society, the
0:41Society of Professional Journalists, the
0:44Columbia Journalism Review, the North
0:46Carolina Press Association, and featured
0:49in the HBO documentary The Trials of
0:53Darryl Hunt.
0:54She is the director of journalism
0:56program at Wake Forest University.
1:00Joining Phoebe tonight is Tim Tyson. He
1:03is the senior research scholar at the
1:06Center for Documentary Studies at Duke
1:08University and an adjunct professor of
1:11American Studies at the University of
1:13North Carolina. He serves on the board
1:17of the NAACP in North Carolina and the
1:21UNC executive board for civil rights.
1:25His most recent book, The Blood of
1:27Emmett Till, won the 200 and uh 2018
1:32Robert F. Kennedy Book Award.
1:34If you have questions, we're going to
1:36take your questions a little bit later.
1:38There's a Q&A box at the bottom of the
1:41screen. Just type your questions in
1:43there. And at this point, Tim, I'll
1:46leave this to you and and
1:49Phoebe, and I'm going to sit back and
1:51listen.
1:51Well, thank you.
1:53Thank you. Yeah,
1:54Phoebe, it's so good to be with you this
1:56evening. And I just wanted to
1:59say that, you know, Beyond Innocence
2:01uh the life sentence of Darryl Hunt
2:04is one of the most compelling stories
2:06I've read in a long time.
2:08It's beautifully crafted. It's It It
2:11cuts deep. Once in a while
2:13a story, a single human story will just
2:16crack open the world that you think that
2:19you knew and make you rethink
2:22uh your assumptions about things.
2:25And I felt that reading this book, even
2:27though I've studied these matters for a
2:29long time.
2:31I I uh
2:33I wanted to ask you
2:35when did you
2:36come to believe for an absolute
2:38certainty
2:40that Darryl Hunt was not
2:43guilty of
2:44either of the murders with which he was
2:46charged?
2:48Oh, that's a really good question
2:49because when I was first looking into
2:52his his case back in 2003 when I was a
2:56reporter at the Winston-Salem Journal,
2:58you know, I had my um reporter hat on
3:01and uh what I was really interested in
3:05was um trying to understand the case and
3:08trying to understand what the evidence
3:11was and really looking at the facts and
3:13my impulse was to believe him. Um I met
3:17him in prison in in 2003 and I certainly
3:21liked him and wanted to believe him, but
3:25I didn't want to be guided by my
3:27feelings in this.
3:29I wanted those those stories I wrote to
3:31be guided by by the facts. And so
3:36I
3:37I I don't know that I can answer when I
3:39first really believed that he was
3:41innocent because I was so determined um
3:45to be more clinical about it. But, you
3:48know, I would say you know, pretty
3:50pretty early on in the reporting process
3:53of of that early work of
3:55I
3:56I certainly by the end was completely
3:59convinced convinced that the case
4:01against him didn't add up um as far as
4:05his innocence
4:08you know I would say probably about
4:09halfway into the reporting was when I
4:12really came to think that but I don't
4:14know that there was an exact turning
4:15point that I can think of.
4:18Yeah.
4:21How did you Who was Darryl Hunt?
4:24Yeah. So that is that's a really good
4:27question. So Darryl Hunt was
4:3019-year-old
4:32black man teenager you know really young
4:35person living in Winston-Salem.
4:37He
4:39back in 1984 when his life you know took
4:42this turn he was just a
4:46he he'd been orphaned he was
4:48kind of semi-homeless because he was
4:50unemployed and and really looking for
4:52work but he'd been raised by his
4:54grandfather who he really really
4:56admired. His grandfather had worked for
4:58the city streets department and what
5:00Darryl Hunt really wanted was to get it
5:04get on with the city streets department
5:06and get married and have children and he
5:10liked animals and he wanted you know
5:12some land where to put around on and I
5:15think that's who he really was and he
5:18didn't get the chance to to have that
5:20life when when he was first arrested and
5:23interviewed by his attorney Mark Rabel
5:26he talked about what what he really
5:28wanted was just to lead what he called a
5:30decent life.
5:32Um but but all of that was taken away
5:35from him when when he was arrested and
5:38charged with this
5:40horrific crime the rape and murder of a
5:42young white woman
5:44and and when that happened
5:47you know he was a poor black kid in in
5:50Winston-Salem and to be charged with
5:52that crime
5:54um
5:55is
5:56once he was arrested, I think his
5:58conviction was all but inevitable and
6:01this thing that he really wanted was was
6:03taken away from him.
6:06I think maybe most uh
6:09white people walking down the street
6:11Mhm.
6:11uh have a hard time believing that's
6:15uh someone who's charged with a murder,
6:17let alone two,
6:18Yes.
6:19uh
6:20just absolutely had nothing whatsoever
6:24to do with that.
6:25And uh
6:28it seemed too that even after the DNA
6:30that some of uh
6:32there were some people in Winston-Salem
6:34who had a hard time
6:36giving up their
6:38sense that the safe case had been solved
6:41and that he was in fact
6:43guilty. How do you How do you explain
6:45that or do you can you?
6:46Uh
6:47So,
6:49you know, we're we're all raised to
6:50believe that in our court system and
6:53that you're
6:54innocent until proven guilty, right? And
6:57that that there are checks and balances
6:59and that um
7:01and that we built a system that
7:03everybody's entitled to a lawyer and
7:05there opportunities for appeal and
7:07there's cross-examination and I think
7:10certainly when I first started working
7:12on this almost 20 years ago,
7:15um in general, white people I
7:18encountered in Winston-Salem thought
7:20that he must be guilty because by 2003,
7:24he'd um had two trials, he'd been
7:26represented by some of the best
7:28attorneys in North Carolina, he had this
7:30defense committee that kept his case
7:32alive. It had been investigated
7:36twice by two different sets of police
7:38officers. It gone all the way through
7:42um the North Carolina Appellate Courts
7:44and all the way through the uh federal
7:46appellate court system. And people And
7:49there were a lot of witnesses who saw
7:51him at the scene. And so, people tended
7:54to think that
7:56you know, how could How could the system
7:58have missed a truly innocent man? And
8:02black people I met in Winston-Salem had
8:05a very different view. I mean, when I
8:08first started working on this and would
8:09go around black neighborhoods looking
8:11for witnesses and people who'd been
8:13involved in the case and just randomly
8:15run into people, um, people would say to
8:18me, "It's a good thing you're taking a
8:20fresh look at this. That guy was
8:22railroaded." And I think white people
8:25and black people in this country have a
8:27completely different experience of what
8:30the what our criminal legal system is
8:32all about. And
8:34the kind of
8:37bias or systemic racism that Hunt faced,
8:41um,
8:43is is very well understood to to black
8:46people. The One of my favorite lines in
8:49the book and from that original series
8:51that I wrote was, um,
8:53was from this woman named Estella
8:55McFadden who lived near where Hunt was
8:58staying. And she was one of the first
9:00two or three members of his defense
9:02committee. There was a city councilman
9:05in town named Larry Little who,
9:09um, was already in '84 a civil rights
9:13activist. And he's He believed that Hunt
9:16was innocent cuz he knew him. And so, he
9:19started recruiting people to this
9:22committee that he was forming. And one
9:24of the first people was this woman named
9:26Estella McFadden. And what she told me
9:28when I first interviewed her was, "Well,
9:30you know, um, we're black people and we
9:33know that when bad things happen,
9:35they'll just go and snatch just about
9:37anybody they can find.
9:39So,
9:40the idea that um that this young black
9:43man could be innocent um
9:46was something that
9:49that was was well understood by black
9:51people in Winston-Salem, but not by
9:53white people.
9:57In 1990,
9:59uh
10:01Hunt turned down an offer
10:03uh
10:04to plead guilty
10:05Yeah.
10:06to this murder and actually another one
10:09Yes.
10:09which he was also wrongly convicted
10:12and walk out the front door of that
10:14prison a free man on time already
10:17served.
10:18Mhm.
10:18What What does What does that say to you
10:21about who he might be and
10:23uh
10:23Well, but that kind of gets back to the
10:25first question, who was he and what does
10:28it mean to be
10:29a decent He wanted a decent life. I
10:32think he was a decent person. Um I mean
10:35more than that, but I mean that word
10:37feels important to me um because it was
10:39a word he used, but um what had happened
10:43um
10:43by 1990, so he was convicted in this
10:47horrific uh rape and murder in 1985
10:52and then appealed that conviction and um
10:56won that appeal. So, he was he was given
11:00a new trial, but also during this period
11:03um he was also wrongly accused of
11:07another earlier murder that had nothing
11:09to do with this rape and murder of the
11:12copy editor. It was
11:14a case that I later learned may in all
11:17likelihood wasn't even a homicide. It
11:19could have been an accidental death, but
11:21a older uh black man in Winston-Salem
11:24was found dead on the street outside an
11:27illegal liquor house and it was an
11:29unsolved crime dating back to 1983
11:33and the police department in the
11:35in around '86 decided to to try to solve
11:39some of these unsolved cases and people
11:42um claimed that they'd seen Darryl Hunt
11:45there and so Darryl Hunt was charged
11:47with that crime.
11:48And he was convicted in '87 and then
11:52appealed that and won a second trial.
11:55So, he was out on appeal waiting two new
11:59trials in 1990.
12:01Um by then he's 25 years old, still a
12:04very young person.
12:07And um they moved and the context is
12:11important. They moved both trials from
12:14Winston-Salem to Catawba County where
12:17Hickory, North Carolina is. It's a rural
12:20um a rural community
12:23um
12:24in the foothills of the Blue Ridge
12:26Mountains, a furniture-producing
12:27community.
12:29Um very few black people living there.
12:32He He was from a city
12:34uh that
12:35was about 30% black.
12:39And so they moved both trials there and
12:41he was they were in the middle of the
12:44second trial in this liquor house
12:47killing.
12:49And
12:51he was offered and and the Debra Sykes
12:53case wouldn't start for several more
12:56months.
12:57And the prosecutors offered him a plea
13:00deal. So,
13:03many many um
13:05felonies are settled by plea agreements,
13:07right?
13:08Yeah.
13:08But they offered him a plea deal that if
13:11he plead guilty to both of these
13:12murders, uh he could go free for time
13:15served, meaning the six years he'd
13:17already been in prison would be
13:19sufficient punishment for these two
13:21crimes.
13:22So, you asked what does it say about
13:24Darryl Hunt and I'll get to that in a
13:26second, but I also want to think about
13:28what it says about the prosecution, that
13:31they would
13:32um
13:34for the kind of murder, especially the
13:37rape and murder of this
13:40woman in downtown Winston-Salem, to
13:43offer somebody time served that they
13:45could be free after 6 years is unheard
13:49of, and it tells me that either they
13:52knew that their case against Hunt was
13:55weak, either they were really worried
13:56about it,
13:58um or they knew
14:00somewhere that that he was actually
14:03innocent. You would not offer somebody
14:05whose guilt you were persuaded of the
14:08chance to walk free, somebody who'd
14:09committed that horrific a crime.
14:12Um
14:13Two. Two.
14:14Two. Um
14:16A double murderer.
14:18Double murderer.
14:19a pattern of murder. You're going to put
14:20him on the street after 6 years. It's
14:22just nonsense.
14:23It was nonsense. And
14:27so at that time Darryl Hunt had, you
14:30know, lawyers, he had advisors.
14:34Um there were several ministers who were
14:36really active in his defense, and Larry
14:39Little was still really active in his
14:41defense.
14:42And everybody
14:44with the exception of a minister named
14:47John Mendez, Reverend John Mendez,
14:50wanted him to take this plea
14:52because they knew how horrific life in
14:55prison was, and they thought that this
14:58would give him a chance to start over
14:59again, and he would be safe. I mean,
15:02they didn't want him They felt very
15:04They loved him. They didn't want him to
15:05go back to prison.
15:07But, um
15:09Darryl Hunt would not do it. He He said
15:12that he could not He could not lie. He
15:14could not
15:16say he had done something that he hadn't
15:18done.
15:19And he turned it down.
15:22Um, knowing
15:24that in all likelihood that would mean
15:27that he would go back to prison.
15:29Um,
15:30so it tells me that he had a lot of
15:32integrity.
15:34And
15:35um,
15:38yeah, that he had a lot of integrity.
15:41What Now, what happened was, I mean, you
15:44could say, "Well, maybe he thought the
15:45case against him was weak." But he knew
15:48that wasn't the case. Now, he ended up
15:50being acquitted of
15:52the the death of um,
15:56the the black man outside the liquor
15:58house.
15:59And that that case was weak, but when
16:03that happened it didn't make Darryl Hunt
16:05think, "Oh, I've got a good chance in
16:07the Debra Sykes case." What he
16:08understood was that a white jury in
16:11Catawba County really didn't care all
16:13that much about the the black victim.
16:15And he knew that it would be almost
16:19impossible for him to win um,
16:23in the second case in the Sykes murder.
16:25And several months later he was in fact
16:28convicted again. So, this is a long way
16:31of saying when he turned down that plea
16:34offer, I don't think he had much
16:36expectation
16:37um, that he was going to be acquitted in
16:42in both of those murders.
16:46Yeah, I I I knew Darryl Hunt
16:49in the years after these cases
16:52were resolved. He was after he was
16:53exonerated.
16:55And he was the gentleman.
16:57Yes.
16:57A profoundly gentle person. And then
17:01for him to be unwilling to take that
17:03plea deal, when really he couldn't
17:06expect anything better than to spend the
17:08rest of his life in prison.
17:10That the Sykes murder was so brutal.
17:13And a a white victim at that.
17:15And and somebody who nobody outside of
17:18that black community there cared about
17:21and saw as a human being really.
17:22Mhm.
17:23You couldn't expect
17:25I don't think you could expect for him
17:27to go free and for both of those things
17:29to for him to be the way he was
17:32and to walk through the world the way he
17:33did and and then to have that kind of
17:35integrity. It's funny in all of this he
17:37comes out as this most sterling
17:39person and I'm not Pollyanna, you know,
17:42Rebecca of Sunnybrook Farm, I am not. I
17:44do not expect people who have been badly
17:47treated and had a rough
17:49time of things to be angels.
17:51But uh
17:53I'm just I was just struck by his
17:55character and I don't know
17:56how do you cut any
17:58deeper that than that but uh
18:01I want to ask you about the title.
18:03Mhm.
18:04Uh tell us about the title Beyond
18:05Innocence, the life sentence of Darryl
18:07Hunt. Can you sort of exegite that a
18:10little bit?
18:11Yeah. Yeah, so Beyond Innocence what um
18:15what that means to me is that um is it
18:20what I wanted it to evoke is this idea
18:22of what happens after somebody is
18:24exonerated.
18:26That we have this sense there now have
18:28been 3,000 proven cases of wrongful
18:32convictions. So we've seen a lot of
18:34these stories unfold. And
18:38you know, there's this the court
18:39hearing, there's it's
18:41there's this triumph, there's exultation
18:45and happiness and there's this feeling
18:47that okay, our system is flawed but it
18:50finally worked and justice was done and
18:52we've recognized the innocence and
18:55um and this person is going to go on to
18:58lead um to lead his life. And so what
19:02the book really explores is how how
19:05difficult that is, how the wrongful
19:07conviction is a soul-shattering
19:11experience and carries with it a
19:13tremendous amount of trauma and that
19:15prison carries with it a tremendous
19:17amount of trauma and then coming
19:20home after living
19:23for 19 years in prison is a transition
19:27that is is
19:30nearly impossible because so much has
19:31been taken from you.
19:33And in Darryl Hunt's case
19:37he went on to become the way you got to
19:40know him is he was
19:42advocate for social justice, right? And
19:44he was in a documentary about his case
19:47that really gave him a national even
19:49international platform. And so he did
19:53all of this work that led to to real
19:57change in North Carolina.
19:59Um I think you got to know him when he
20:01was working on advocating for the Racial
20:04Justice Act.
20:05That's right.
20:06Um and um
20:08and his story um was so powerful because
20:12it showed the racial bias that he faced
20:15when his case was a capital case and
20:17when they were going after the death
20:19penalty for him and the Racial Justice
20:21Act is a law in North Carolina that
20:23allows uh
20:24people with on death row to appeal not
20:28their conviction but their sentence if
20:29they can show that there's racial bias
20:32in the sentencing. And so
20:34Darryl Hunt traveled all over the state
20:36and told his story and
20:40in his case that work gave him meaning
20:43but it was also um I think it was
20:46re-traumatizing for him and people who
20:48were with him at during that time
20:51period, you know, could see that
20:52happening and so he could he was never
20:56really free to
20:58both heal from the experience and and
21:00and really move on.
21:02And he also worked with um
21:08people coming home from prison in
21:09Winston-Salem. So, he There was a lot of
21:12conflict in the kind of advocacy work
21:14that he did, you know, the people who
21:17who worked with him to get him
21:19exonerated really wanted him to work on
21:22policy, big policy issues like the
21:25Racial Justice Act and and um he also
21:29advocated for reform in criminal
21:31proceedings so that to prevent wrongful
21:34conviction. But, what he really wanted
21:37to work on
21:38was more straightforward kind of work.
21:41He really wanted to work on helping
21:43people coming home from prison, just
21:45like the people he'd been in prison
21:47with, um
21:48try to find their way back in the free
21:51world. And so, he did one-on-one work
21:55mentoring people, helping them get jobs,
21:58really kind of almost acting as a
22:01counselor. And um
22:05But, that also was really um
22:07painful for him because he knew what
22:09they were up against, cuz he understood
22:12um how our system of uh
22:15justice works.
22:16And um So, that's the first part of the
22:20title. I'm going on a little bit long
22:21here, but the second part of of the
22:24title really comes from from
22:28an interview actually that Darryl Hunt
22:30gave about the work he did with
22:33re-entry, with people coming home from
22:35prison. And
22:37he talked about the hurdles that they
22:39faced and how
22:41and the systemic barriers in place that
22:44made it so hard for people to start
22:46their life over again. And he talked
22:48about how any kind of sentence, whether
22:51it's 5 years, 10 years, 20 years, a life
22:54sentence like he had, that because you
22:57carry that record with you once you're
23:00released from prison, that
23:03um
23:04that any kind of criminal record
23:07acts as a life sentence. Um
23:11there's there's a lot of truth in in
23:13that in that observation.
23:16And so that's that's what the title is
23:19is meant to get at. That he his
23:22experience really served as a life
23:24sentence for him and the experience of
23:28the 2 million people we have in prison
23:31right now and the millions more who have
23:33a criminal record that that that
23:37that that is a burden that people carry
23:39with them for the rest of their lives.
23:43Phoebe, uh
23:46I've I'm just I was struck when I read
23:48this book
23:49Mhm.
23:49at the craft of it and also
23:52at the enormous amount of work that it
23:54went into it.
23:55You know, I sort of know from my own
23:58labors
23:59what that entails. And you know, it may
24:03not be a book like the Protestant
24:05Reformation or the Civil War.
24:07Right.
24:07some ways a small story like that that's
24:09complicated
24:11is almost more work.
24:13You really
24:15So I really respect that and I thank you
24:17for this book.
24:19I I wondered how did you become a writer
24:22in the
24:23in the beginnings of things?
24:24Oh my gosh, that's a great question. You
24:27know, I almost became a doctor. So
24:33So there was a lot of detouring going
24:36on. I teach at Wake Forest now and my my
24:38students, especially the seniors, are
24:40always in this kind of panic cuz they
24:42don't know what they're going to do with
24:43their life and and it took me most of my
24:4720s to find, you know, a path that that
24:50made sense to me. Um
24:55I I don't completely know the answer to
24:57that. I I I think I became a journalist
24:59because I really
25:01It's It's It's sounds very lame, but I
25:04didn't want a desk job. You know, I did
25:07that for a while and it was just It felt
25:09so stifling to be um
25:13to be you know, a part of a big
25:15bureaucracy and journalism seemed like a
25:19way to do something that was going to be
25:21meaningful, but but would take me out
25:24into the world and um
25:27Some days it accomplished that. Some
25:29days Some days it didn't. Um
25:31and I never really when I was a
25:34newspaper reporter, I I never really
25:36thought of my I would never have said
25:38that to anybody, "What do you do? Oh,
25:40I'm a writer." I was I said, "I'm a
25:42newspaper reporter."
25:44So, um
25:46I think it was
25:48I've never thought of it this way, but I
25:50think it was to some extent this story
25:53that led me
25:55to um into more long-form journalism and
26:00has eventually led me to to writing a
26:03book, but I'm really um
26:05in my head, I'm a reporter first and
26:09it's the it's the story and that that
26:13that path of discovery and the the the
26:17the facts that you uncover and by facts,
26:21I don't just mean hard facts, but the
26:23details that you uncover reporting that
26:26leads to the writing.
26:29What do your journalism students make of
26:31this? What do you think they've they
26:33learn from this book if
26:35if you if they've I don't know if I
26:37don't know that you assign it to them,
26:38but if I were you
26:39So, I don't I don't talk about it that
26:40much. I talk about it more with my
26:42writing students because I teach
26:44composition and we use the theme of um
26:50of wrongful conviction is kind of the
26:53the subject matter and I introduce them
26:55to Darryl Hunt's story early on in the
26:58semester and it's it's meant to be kind
27:02of a hook into the larger subjects
27:05because he was their age when he was
27:07arrested and it's a it's a pretty
27:10compelling story and
27:13so that it gives them
27:16the subject matter
27:18I
27:19it attracts young people and I it's I
27:23hope that it when they start writing
27:26their own
27:27um essays and summaries and all the
27:30basic kind of first year composition
27:32assignments
27:33um I it gives them something to really
27:37latch on a subject matter to really sink
27:39their teeth into so that they're writing
27:41about something that feels meaningful to
27:43them.
27:44Um but that's actually kind of related
27:47to
27:48my hope for the book which is that
27:52he is
27:54it's a really compelling story and he is
27:59an interesting character and a
28:00charismatic person and all the people
28:03around him were really interesting
28:06people whose stories I think
28:09um
28:10will be interesting to people his lawyer
28:12Mark Rabel is a complex and sympathetic
28:16character and Larry Little
28:19is a civil rights figure and and
28:23and
28:25who was tortured by this case and and
28:27really by what happened to to Darryl
28:30Hunt and um
28:31and Darryl Hunt's
28:34wife who became his ex-wife is just a
28:36beautiful person and their love story
28:38was it it it it
28:41it failed ultimately but they really
28:43loved each other deeply
28:45and um
28:48I got to know two of his friends, um,
28:51who really helped me understand both
28:53life in prison and some of the pressures
28:56he was under after prison and and the,
29:00um, yeah, the pressure of being an
29:03activist and of being a celebrity and of
29:06high expectations that people had for
29:09him and
29:10so I think these two men really, um, you
29:14know, will will their stories are
29:16interesting to people and so I hope that
29:19the book is an opportunity for
29:22people to understand one man's story and
29:27through that story understand the
29:29themes that run through the book which
29:31have to do with our country's history
29:35with, uh,
29:36with racism and systemic racism and
29:40which have to do with the way our
29:42criminal justice system makes so many
29:45mistakes and
29:47so often denies justice to people.
29:50There's uh there's another character in
29:52the book who is compelling with which
29:55and it's a woman who was
29:57raped
29:59in downtown Winston-Salem, a white
30:01woman, six months after the original
30:04crime that led to Darryl Hunt's
30:06conviction and she fought off her
30:09attacker and survived this horrific
30:13attack and tried to get the police to
30:16see the similarities between the attack
30:19against her and the attack that Hunt was
30:23convicted in and she was silenced. And
30:26so and this was all this all happened in
30:291985 so it was way before the Me Too
30:32movement, way before as a country we
30:34started paying attention to
30:36uh the stories of victims of sexual
30:39assault and she was effectively silenced
30:42and she's she plays an important role in
30:45Darryl Hunt's story because ultimately
30:49um
30:50the case was solved because there was a
30:53match a DNA match with the man that she
30:56had identified
30:5720 years earlier.
30:59And
31:01then her story led to the revelation of
31:04the cover-up in Darryl Hunt's case, and
31:06we now know that police
31:09um
31:10saw some connection and um
31:14and intentionally silenced her because
31:17they didn't want to mess up the case
31:19against Darryl Hunt.
31:20And
31:22so that's another thread that runs
31:25through this book, and my hope is that
31:27because these are such compelling
31:30characters and such a compelling story
31:33that readers who might not necessarily
31:36be drawn to a book about um the criminal
31:39justice system or
31:42um
31:43a racial reckoning or racial
31:45reconciliation
31:47um might find their way to these subject
31:50matters through the story.
31:53What do you
31:55What do you think the role of the
31:56movement was? I you know, I know uh
31:59Larry Little, I knew Reverend Carlton
32:00Eversley, and I know John Mendez quite
32:03well.
32:04Um
32:05and Rob Stevens, and I I uh
32:09I'm sort of sort of familiar with the
32:11world in which they move in the social
32:13ad- advocacy and
32:14Mhm.
32:15um
32:16and I was just wondering what the
32:19how important do you think that work was
32:21to his act to his being exonerated in
32:24the end?
32:26Well, the work was
32:30I'm going to back up. Um I think the
32:32work was critical to um um,
32:35to his
32:37to the fact that he wasn't, um,
32:39sentenced to death because
32:41they were able to build support for him
32:44and raise money. Now, they were raising
32:47money mostly from poor black people, so
32:50they were raising money in little bits
32:52and pieces at church and at,
32:55you know, at small fundraisers.
32:57But, at the time, um, if you were a
33:00court-appointed attorney in a capital
33:02case, you didn't get a budget to hire
33:05experts or to get a private
33:07investigator. And so, Mark Rabel was
33:10able to use the money that, uh, Larry
33:12Little raised by through this defense
33:15committee to hire, um,
33:18investigators who turned up in enough
33:22information about the witnesses in the
33:24case,
33:25um, that it seeded enough doubt
33:28that that the defense was able to seed
33:30enough doubt so that the jury,
33:33um, didn't sentence Daryl Hunt to death.
33:36Now, that's not the way it's supposed to
33:38work. It's supposed to work that if you
33:40have doubt as a jury, you acquit, and
33:43then the sentencing phase is supposed to
33:45be considering a whole other set of
33:48factors having to do with the,
33:51um,
33:52the
33:53the severity of the crime and
33:56aspects about the the defendant's
33:58character. But, what happened in this
33:59case, and this happens in a lot of death
34:02penalty cases, was that the jury
34:04convicted, but then because they still
34:07had some doubt, they sentenced him to
34:09life. So, the movement was absolutely
34:12critical to to Daryl Hunt being spared
34:16the death penalty. And then, along the
34:18way, it kept, um,
34:21it kept his case alive. I I know it gave
34:24him tremendous hope and, um, uh, and a
34:28lot enabled him to to survive
34:31essentially in prison because he knew
34:33that people
34:34um cared about him and loved him. And it
34:40And yeah, it kept the case it kept the
34:43case alive. I I don't know
34:46I haven't thought about whether how it
34:48contributed to his ultimate exoneration.
34:51Um
34:52It it was but it was the efforts of his
34:56attorney, Mark Rabil, who There were
34:58other attorneys along the way, but Mark
35:00Rabil is the one who stayed with him
35:01till the end. And the the defense
35:05committee that kept the momentum going,
35:08um which led to his exoneration.
35:13Phoebe, I wanted to follow up on one of
35:15Tim's questions. And
35:18when you were interviewed by the the
35:20Nieman Foundation, you talked about the
35:23importance of the way the story is told.
35:28Yes.
35:28Uh about doing it
35:31it's not like going to a court hearing
35:34and saying this happened, this happened,
35:36this happened. Here Here this is what
35:37the the jury um
35:40heard. Uh it's important
35:43that they get context and flow. Can you
35:46explain that?
35:49A narrative sense.
35:50Yeah. Yes. So, this goes back to the
35:52question of writing, right? And um
35:55and
35:57and how this
35:58story is is taught taught me to be
36:01somebody who maybe I think of myself as
36:03a writer now. So, that really had to do
36:06with the way we presented um
36:09my work back in 2003 because I after
36:13this months of investigation, I really
36:15hadn't come up with anything brand new.
36:18But what we did come up with was a
36:21different way of telling the story that
36:23people in Winston-Salem and I would need
36:25to point out that that work was done
36:28that newspaper series was written for a
36:30newspaper audience that had been
36:32following this case for 19 years. So,
36:34most people knew all the ups and downs
36:38and the this and the that and and what
36:40all the witnesses had said and what the
36:42flaws were. But But when they were able
36:45to read it
36:46told as a story so that you could really
36:49see how the police investigation played
36:52out and how they really
36:56um zeroed in on Darryl Hunt and excluded
36:59everything else. Like people could see
37:01that in a way that they hadn't seen
37:02before or they could really see laid out
37:05in front of them how our appellate
37:07system works and how
37:09um what he was one justice away on the
37:12North Carolina Supreme Court from
37:14getting his conviction for getting a
37:17third trial.
37:18Um so that the the telling of the story
37:22um I think made all the difference in
37:23the way people in Winston-Salem saw it
37:27including
37:29um the judge who'd ordered this new
37:32round of DNA testing in 2003 that the
37:35state crime lab had chosen to ignore.
37:37So, there was an order to do testing and
37:40the they just said, "Oh, well, this case
37:42is closed. We're not going to you know,
37:44it's this is not something we're going
37:46to do." And the district attorney who
37:48was new to the case, but he'd been
37:51defending the conviction all along, he
37:54read this the the work that I'd done.
37:56So, it changed the way people were able
37:59to see facts that they kind of thought
38:02they already knew.
38:03Yeah.
38:04Um and and in terms of telling a
38:07narrative, I I suppose it gets back to
38:10what I was saying earlier about what I
38:12my hope for the for this book is that
38:14because it's a compelling story
38:18um
38:19I mean, it's all true, but in I was
38:21trying to make it read a little bit more
38:24like a John Grisham novel, you know,
38:26something something that would keep
38:28people reading with character and plot
38:31and
38:31you know, cliffhangers, all of those
38:34techniques that um I I just hope that
38:37that people who uh maybe new to the
38:40subject matter um will be drawn into
38:44understanding um
38:47the forces that Darrell Hunt faced that
38:49of course so many other people in his
38:51situation faced.
38:54In that same interview, it was pointed
38:57out that
38:58um one of the
39:00people that were asked some some
39:02questions had heard you and Mr. Hunt
39:05speak and she raised the question, why
39:09not just let him rest in peace?
39:12Oh, yeah, that's an excellent question.
39:16Um so, I really struggled with that. So,
39:19in between the newspaper series and this
39:21book, there was a long-form magazine
39:23article.
39:25Um and
39:27um I suppose when he died, that's what
39:29drew me back to telling this story and
39:33as I got into it, I realized that I was
39:36learning things about him that um
39:40he had tried really hard to keep secret.
39:42And sort of along the lines of what his
39:46good friend um
39:48kept telling me every time I went to
39:49talk to him about Darrell Hunt, he would
39:51say, "Well, you know, Hunt was no
39:54I mean, I ain't no choir boy and Hunt
39:55was no angel. So, the you know, we all
39:58have flaws, right? And and the work I
40:01was There's some things in this book
40:03about him that are not particularly
40:06flattering. And
40:09um
40:09I really wrestled with that, you know,
40:11is this a fair thing to do? Is this a do
40:15I is it my place? Um and I suppose I
40:20I ultimately decided that there was
40:23enough value in telling his story
40:26that it was a fair thing to do. And I
40:29also felt that part of what he Now, I
40:32don't know whether this is my place, but
40:34I felt that part of what he suffered
40:35from at the end of his life was being
40:38misunderstood that a lot of us kind of
40:42put him on a pedestal and had these
40:44expectations that he was always going to
40:46be this calm, soft-spoken
40:50gracious man when inside he he was
40:54suffering and he was angry and he was
40:56hurt and
40:58um
40:59but
41:00and
41:01and it wasn't what was going on inside
41:04of him wasn't all that pretty, but I
41:06felt that
41:08that maybe what the full story could do
41:11was to help us all understand what the
41:15justice system had done to him to to
41:18to cause this kind of suffering and
41:21pain.
41:22As you would bring him into your class
41:25and speak at other times, did you ever
41:28get a sense
41:29as his life was drawing near an end that
41:33he had such turmoil?
41:37Yeah, I mean, I think everybody around
41:40him had some sense that he was suffering
41:42and
41:43and um
41:47and
41:48I like other people, you know,
41:51either didn't really see it if if you
41:54One of the I went back, of course, and
41:56looked at all these interviews and
41:57thought about, you know, my encounters
41:59with him and talked to people who had
42:01thought about their encounters with him.
42:03And I think people missed um
42:07missed the depth of the anguish that he
42:10was going through. I mean, I certainly
42:12knew that he had some anxiety and some
42:16paranoia, and I'd heard him talk about
42:19that, but I just didn't realize how deep
42:21it was. And
42:24um I suppose that's partly the the
42:27the message of the book is that what we
42:30do to people when when when we deny them
42:34justice, when we wrongly convict them,
42:36we cause
42:37um
42:38unmeasurable harm.
42:42We We see them coming out of prison, and
42:44we see the excitement of being free, and
42:48we assume a happy ending.
42:51Yes.
42:52And
42:53I think some people
42:55I mean, it looked like Hunt had rebuilt
42:56his life. So, yes, people can rebuild
42:59their lives, but but I but to really
43:03heal, and
43:05so many people don't rebuild their
43:06lives, and so many people who
43:09who've been exonerated struggle
43:13in terrible ways afterwards. And um and
43:18it's because that that kind of
43:20injustice, it's not just that they've
43:22lost, in Hunt's case, 19 years of his
43:24life,
43:25but the rest of his life was shaped by
43:28that trauma that he suffered.
43:31And you sort of
43:32sometimes that you sit back and think,
43:34"Okay, what if that were me that had
43:37been put in that position?
43:39How would I have been able to deal with
43:41that?"
43:42Yeah. Well, I I don't know how to
43:45imagine that for myself. Um
43:48um
43:49um I mean, I don't know that I couldn't
43:51have survived the first night that he
43:53spent in jail with the guards
43:55threatening to to hang him. So,
43:58I
43:59I can't I can't imagine myself in
44:01You wouldn't wish it on anyone.
44:04And it's even after spending,
44:07you know
44:08four or five years now writing about his
44:12experience, I still can't really put
44:14myself in that in that place. I I don't
44:16know. I don't I'm pretty sure I would
44:19not turn down that plea deal that he
44:20turned down.
44:23The book is Beyond Innocence
44:27by Phoebe Zerwick, Tim Tyson. Thank you
44:30both very much. Acapella Books has
44:32copies of Phoebe's book with uh
44:35autographed book plate and what you've
44:38heard tonight is just a a sample of the
44:42the really
44:44heart-rending story that uh that she
44:47tells. Thank you both, Phoebe, Tim.
44:49Thank you and thank you for joining us.
44:52Good night.
44:53Good night.
44:54Good night. Thank you.

About this transcript

This page contains the full transcript of Author Program: Phoebe Zerwick, "Beyond Innocence: The Life Sentence of Darryl Hunt" by Jimmy Carter Presidential Library, generated from the public captions YouTube serves with the video. The transcript has 6,527 words across 1,096 segments, with the original timestamps preserved so you can click any line to jump to that moment in the embedded player.

What you can do with it

Use the transcript to take notes, quote the speaker, build a study guide, generate a summary with ChatGPT or Claude via the YouTube Summary tool, or export it as a timed subtitle file with YouTube to SRT. You can also re-open it in the transcriber to translate the transcript into 100+ languages.

Free YouTube transcript tool

YouTube2Text is a free YouTube transcript generator — no signup, no daily limit. Paste any YouTube link and get the full transcript instantly, with timestamps, click-to-jump, translation to 100+ languages, AI prompts for ChatGPT, Claude, and Gemini, and exports to TXT, SRT, VTT, or Markdown.