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As Death Toll Rises in Flint, Dr. Mona Hanna-Attisha on Her Fight to Expose Lead Poisoning in City — Transcript

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0:00I'm Amy Goodman a new report by PBS
0:02Frontline has found the death toll from
0:04the water crisis in Flint may be higher
0:06than Michigan officials have
0:08acknowledged the state has admitted 12
0:10people died following outbreak of
0:12Legionnaires disease after Flint
0:14switched its water supply to the Flint
0:16River in an attempt to save money but
0:19according to PBS Frontline the city also
0:21saw a spike in pneumonia deaths during
0:23the water crisis some of these deaths
0:25may have actually been caused by
0:27Legionnaires between April 2014 through
0:30October 2015 a hundred 19 people died of
0:34pneumonia in Flint a jump of 46 percent
0:37from that same time period a year
0:39earlier more than a dozen state and city
0:42officials are facing criminal charges in
0:44part for failing to alert the public to
0:46the risk of Legionnaires disease during
0:48the Flint water crisis on Wednesday NIC
0:50Lyon the former head of the Michigan
0:53Department of Health and Human Services
0:54was in court for a hearing to determine
0:56whether he'll stand trial on
0:57manslaughter charges well we spend the
1:00rest of the hour with dr. mona
1:02hanna-attisha the flint pediatrician who
1:05helped expose the dangerous levels of
1:07lead in Flint Michigan's drinking water
1:09after she tested blood lead levels and
1:12children in 2016
1:14Time magazine named dr. mona one of the
1:16hundred most influential people in the
1:18world her new book is titled what the
1:20eyes don't see a story of crisis
1:22resistance and hope in an American city
1:24she recently came to our studios we sat
1:27down for an interview and I asked her to
1:29describe the situation in Flint today
1:31our water quality is definitely
1:33improving
1:35it is absolutely getting better shortly
1:38after we released our findings that
1:39children's lead levels were elevated we
1:42switch back to treated Great Lakes water
1:44however the 18 months that we were on
1:46that corrosive water ate up our pipes
1:49and ate up our lead pipes and they're
1:51being replaced and replacing pipes
1:53doesn't happen overnight we've replaced
1:55about 6,000 we have about 9,000 to go
1:58and until those pipes are all replaced
2:00people still need to be on filtered
2:02water or bottled water so let's go back
2:05to the beginning some people have heard
2:07about Flint water maybe others haven't
2:11but tell us the story of what actually
2:13took place
2:14so Michigan has a crazy law that if you
2:19are in a near bankruptcy state the state
2:22can swoop in and usurp democracy Flint
2:26has been in crisis really for decades
2:28financial crisis with disinvestment
2:30unemployment racism poverty and in 2011
2:34the governor appointed a state-appointed
2:36emergency manager to come in with one
2:39purpose and that purpose was austerity
2:41it was save money save money save money
2:44and really no matter what the cost and
2:46they decided that the water that we had
2:48been getting from Detroit which was
2:49fresh Great Lakes water for half a
2:51century was too expensive for this poor
2:53minority city that was near bankruptcy
2:55and that instead we would start drawing
2:57water from the local Flint River until a
2:59new pipeline to the Great Lakes was to
3:01be built but the critical error came
3:04where the water from the Flint River was
3:06not treated properly the Flint River
3:08water may have been ok but it was not
3:11treated with the necessary corrosion
3:13control and without that medicine I
3:16think of it that you put in the water
3:18treatment it prevents the lead that is
3:20in all of our plumbing to come out of
3:22the plumbing and go into our drinking
3:24water so it lead this corrosive water
3:26supply leached out the lead in the pipe
3:29absolutely so we were stubbornly slow as
3:31a nation to listen to science and to
3:34restrict lead in our plumbing the lead
3:35industry was and continues to be
3:37absolutely evil we still had regulations
3:40in place that could allow lead service
3:42lines until 1986 but not until 2014 did
3:47we restrict lead from our brass fixtures
3:49so we have led in all of our
3:52infrastructure New York City actually
3:53has the most lead lines in the country
3:55but if it's properly treated it
3:58minimizes the lead release doesn't
4:00prevent it but minimize it so the the
4:03corrosive water really just ate up the
4:06scale that was in those pipes and then
4:08released the lead that was already in
4:10that plumbing into the drinking water
4:11now it's not as if people weren't aware
4:14I mean we went to Flint we met with the
4:17people who were marching in the streets
4:19she said the modern the water smelled
4:21funny
4:22looked funny described the water and
4:25what it took and especially what you did
4:28so the heroes of the story are the
4:31people of Flint they were heroic and
4:34brave and loud incredible activism and
4:37resistance right when the water switched
4:39they said hey you know the water looks
4:41gross it tastes gross is brown it smells
4:43like sewage my kids are getting rashes
4:45we had bacteria in the water then they
4:48dumped a lot of chlorine in the water to
4:49kill the bacteria people felt that they
4:51were you know drinking a swimming pool
4:53that excess chlorine caused high levels
4:57of chlorine byproducts which are
4:58carcinogens that cause cancer and then
5:01just a few months into this water switch
5:03general motors which was born in Flint
5:05stopped using this water because it was
5:08corroding their engine parts so a full
5:11year before I meet my research this is
5:13an amazing story we went to the house of
5:16one of the union workers in Flint who
5:18worked at the engine giant yeah and they
5:22got a waiver because they were getting
5:25corrosion on their engine parts too
5:27saying we can't sell these engines so
5:29clearly the city and the state knew
5:32there was something wrong with the water
5:33and here where the Flint workers at the
5:36plant Singh wait if it's corroding our
5:38engines what's happening to our bodies
5:40it is mind-boggling and the state
5:42repeatedly just told people to relax
5:45they literally said if you have any
5:46concerns about lead in the water you can
5:49relax so I heard about the bacteria I
5:54heard about the high levels of chlorine
5:56but the state was reassuring everybody
5:58and I mean who doesn't believe that the
6:01water that comes out of your tap in the
6:0221st century it's okay and Michigan is
6:06is literally we are the mitten state we
6:07are literally in the middle of the Great
6:10Lakes here splain right there we are
6:11middle and the largest source of fresh
6:13water in the world 20% of the freshwater
6:15you're building up your hands and you're
6:17showing Flint is right below your
6:19pointer finger here's Detroit here's Ann
6:22Arbor here's their Rapids and here's
6:23Flynn literally in the middle of the
6:25largest source of fresh water in the
6:26world like who would believe that in a
6:2821st century in the middle of the Great
6:30Lakes that when you turn on your tap
6:32that your water is not fine so
6:34dr. Mona talk about what where you were
6:37working at the time sure so I'm a
6:39pediatrician and a medical educator at
6:41our public Children's Hospital and
6:44families would come in and see me and
6:46they would be worried about the water
6:47and I was reassuring families telling
6:49them it's okay don't waste your money on
6:51bottled water the state says everything
6:54is okay
6:54and I wasn't tipped off until a high
6:57school girlfriend came over who happens
7:00to be a water expert so at my home not
7:02at work with a glass of wine in my hand
7:05and this highschool girlfriend tells me
7:07hey Mona the water's not being treated
7:09properly I'm like what are you talking
7:11about it everybody says it's okay how
7:12could the water not be okay and she's
7:14like well there's no corrosion control
7:16and if you're missing that ingredient
7:18there's gonna be lead in the water she's
7:20from Flint she's not from Flint drinking
7:22water expert formerly with the EPA in
7:25Metro Detroit and that was the very
7:27first time with a glass of wine in my
7:29hand that I heard the possibility of
7:31lead in the water and when a
7:33pediatrician hears the word lead it's a
7:36call to action we know what lead does
7:39it's probably the most well-studied
7:40neurotoxins known to man
7:43it impacts cognition and behavior and
7:45alters a child's entire life course
7:47trajectory it's already a form of
7:50environmental racism our kids in Flint
7:52already had higher blood levels just
7:53like kids in Detroit and Chicago and
7:55Philadelphia it impacts them forever so
7:59when I heard that there was potentially
8:01that in the water that really started
8:03kind of my quest to see if that led in
8:05the water was getting into the bodies of
8:06our children so talk about what you do I
8:09tried to get the data from both the
8:11county in the state so let is something
8:13that there's surveillance programs for
8:15all the blood blood levels done at this
8:17anywhere in Michigan go to a
8:19surveillance system just like we have
8:21surveillance for flu and HIV I tried to
8:23get that surveillance data but was
8:25blocked and in every direction so then
8:28decided to do my own research in our
8:29Hospital which sees really the most
8:32Flint kids pulled up those labs as
8:35quickly as possible and the compared
8:37children's LED levels before the water
8:38switch to after the water switch and
8:41notice that contrary to really every
8:43trend that was happening at the national
8:45level the state level and even
8:47city level where lead levels have been
8:49going down for years because we got let
8:51out of paint in gasoline there was an
8:54increase even if it had stayed the same
8:56it would have been alarming and and this
8:58was all a massive underestimation of
9:00exposure so then talk about what
9:03happened as you gathered the information
9:05I mean you had people their hair was
9:07falling out they had rashes hair was
9:10falling out worried about their children
9:12all kinds of nondescript symptoms the
9:17hard thing with environmental health
9:18exposures especially lead is you can't
9:20really pinpoint it doesn't have one
9:22symptom like I wish it had like purple
9:24spots and that means you're supposed to
9:26lead but it's known as a silent
9:27pediatric epidemic you don't see the
9:30consequences of lead exposure for four
9:32really years after exposure and then
9:34often it's it's too late
9:36someone when we knew that we had this
9:38data when we knew that we saw this
9:40increase in children's lead levels and
9:42it was in the same geographic areas
9:44where the water lead levels were the
9:46highest we tried to alert local
9:49officials they were not interested in
9:51listening so I held a press conference
9:53and this is definitely not something
9:55doctors do it's actually kind of a form
9:58of academic disobedience you are
10:00supposed to release your research in
10:02journals and publications it's supposed
10:04to go through a peer-review process
10:06which takes time and our kids in Flint
10:08had no time describe to us what happened
10:12when you got your numbers back before
10:14the news conference what did you say yes
10:17where were you yeah so I was I was in my
10:20office at the hospital with one of my co
10:23researchers another young woman a young
10:25mom and we got the data back that showed
10:28this increase in blood lead levels and I
10:31tried every which way to prove that I
10:33was wrong I was trying to be a
10:34statistical devil's advocate I did not
10:37want to be right because to be right to
10:40have seen an increase in blood levels
10:42was was higher for our children that's
10:45not what these Flint kids need who are
10:47already struggling with every adversity
10:50to their development every obstacle to
10:52their success and so then you decided to
10:56hold this news conference i de de hold a
10:58news conference
10:59so literally like walked out of the
11:01clinic and into into this conference
11:03room at a press conference to share this
11:06data I want to go to a clip of that news
11:08conference the percentage of children
11:10with elevated blood levels has increased
11:13the most striking increase isn't a zip
11:16codes with the highest water level so
11:18that's dr. mona hanna-attisha at a news
11:21conference announcing the results of the
11:25study she had done based on the kids of
11:28Flint dr. mona hanna-attisha is a
11:30pediatrician in Flint Michigan talked
11:33about the response to this news
11:35conference yeah so I shouldn't have been
11:38surprised because everybody in the story
11:41who had raised the flag had been
11:43attacked the incredible mom the
11:46activists the pastors the journalists
11:48the water scientists everybody was
11:50dismissed denied and attacked so when I
11:53shared this evidence these facts this
11:56proof that there was a alarming increase
11:59in children's blood levels I was also
12:02attacked I was called an unfortunate
12:04researcher that I was causing near
12:06hysteria which is one of my favorites
12:08because I was also blatantly sexist and
12:11that I was slicing and dicing numbers
12:13and that the state's data was not
12:14consistent with my data so when the
12:17state attacks you you feel like crap and
12:20I doubted myself I second-guessed myself
12:22maybe I was wrong but I quickly realized
12:26that every single kid in my data every
12:30number every statistic was a child a
12:33child that I had probably cared for
12:35within the last year or so and they gave
12:38me the strength to fight back because
12:41this was not about numbers this was
12:42about kids and this is about the future
12:43of those kids so talk about your data
12:46versus the state's data right so if you
12:49weren't wrong they were wrong yeah so
12:52they were wrong so that they said that
12:54we know our numbers don't show this it's
12:56not consistent with with what your
12:59findings are and there was about a week
13:02two weeks of this back and forth you
13:04know comparing data fighting and in the
13:06media and then finally the state's chief
13:10medical doctor called me
13:12and she's like tell me tell me how you
13:14did your research like let's have a
13:15physician to physician conversation
13:17which means let's kind of cut the crap
13:18what did you do
13:20share your share your research and and
13:21and that really forced the state to go
13:24back and look at their data and when
13:26they did go back and look at their data
13:27they saw the same thing that that I had
13:30seen so you had the governor's office
13:32the governor of Michigan Rick Snyder
13:34attacking you and then the next thing we
13:38see is a news conference of Governor
13:41Snyder and you're standing at his side
13:44let's go to that news conference you had
13:47contaminated water coming from your tap
13:49at home should you have to pay for it
13:52again that's one of the questions that
13:54we'll be reviewing I know the perfect
13:55analogy the question is should you be
13:57paying for contaminated water you'll if
13:59you're if it came out of your tap we're
14:01addressing the immediate issue now which
14:02is making sure people have water Phil
14:04we're not answering my question sir I'm
14:06answering your questions you're
14:07answering so much question but not mine
14:08describe what happened then yeah so I
14:12will work with anybody who is willing to
14:15work for children that is the
14:18constituency that I respond to
14:20so the governor asked what it was his
14:22first visit in Flint with the new mayor
14:25who had just been elected and they were
14:28you know discussing the situation and
14:30what needed to be done that was dr.
14:32Karen Weaver the psychologist sort of
14:34almost ran on a single plank the way I'm
14:37going to deal with the water of Flint
14:39absolutely she's a pediatric
14:40psychologist so is well aware of the
14:43consequences of a water crisis and
14:45unloved crisis so I was standing at this
14:48press conference with with the new mayor
14:50with the governor with many of his
14:51cabinet members and they ignore at that
14:55point had acknowledged the crisis but
14:56we're continuing to downplay the crisis
14:58and although I was standing there and
15:00asked to be there with them I couldn't
15:04agree with what they were saying they
15:06were saying that only a few children
15:08were exposed they were saying that it
15:10was by and large you know the school's
15:11fault that there was high levels in the
15:12schools I wasn't that it was the
15:14corrosive untreated waters fault so I
15:16very visibly shook my head I'm like this
15:19is this is not right and in in
15:22opposition to what they were saying
15:23so they cherry-picks their data it's
15:26just not a matter of oh they happen to
15:28have different conclusions than you and
15:30then they call you up and they say oh we
15:31should do it another way this had been
15:33developing for a few years people had
15:36been raising many concerns so what did
15:42they leave out that you found yeah
15:44so actually in all these FOIA emails
15:47that eventually came out the state
15:49health department had actually looked at
15:52children's blood levels that that
15:54previous summer so in the summer of 2015
15:57they had actually analyzed but the
15:59levels from the summer of 2014 and
16:01actually saw a spike in children's blood
16:04levels but didn't share that information
16:07so that was another missed opportunity
16:10where this crisis could have been
16:13averted so explain what happened next
16:18Governor Rick Snyder is still the
16:21governor of Michigan but a number of his
16:24top aides have been indicted yeah
16:27there's been over 15 criminal charges in
16:30addition to a lead crisis we also had
16:33one of the out largest outbreaks of
16:34Legionnaires disease which causes
16:36pneumonia and and fatalities people died
16:38at least 12 people died from
16:40Legionnaires disease which was also due
16:42to this untreated water there was an
16:44overall uptick in pneumonia so there's
16:47some homicide charges because of that
16:49there's been charges against the water
16:51quality water treatment folks people at
16:54the Health Department the emergency
16:55managers city officials so there's been
16:57many many investigations and ongoing
17:00efforts at the accountability talked
17:05about the role of the EPA the
17:08Environmental Protection Agency which is
17:10to say the least extremely relevant
17:12today and the Trump administration the
17:14rollback of regulations but this was not
17:16during the Trump administration this was
17:19during the Obama administration the head
17:21of the EPA Region five which is where
17:24Michigan is Susan had been resigned
17:26because of this crisis the EPA actually
17:28did their own internal report with their
17:32Inspector General and noted that they
17:33should have acted 7 months sooner
17:36there were heroic and brave defiant
17:39folks at the EPA who are raising the
17:41alarm bells on what was happening in
17:43Flint but they were also silenced
17:46so there the there's a role of the EPA
17:48at fault and and it's concerning now
17:50because you know the EPA is further
17:53being emasculated with you know almost
17:56being permanently dismantled with cuts
17:58and regulations and cuts and senior
18:00staff so it's even more concerning that
18:02we will see many more Flint's to come
18:04there was an EPA whistleblower you have
18:07the head of the EPA stepping down but
18:09there was someone who is willing to
18:11share his data with residents of Flint
18:14so alarmed by what he saw there was a
18:17heroic EPA with the Lord his name is
18:19Miguel del toral and he came up to Flint
18:23after an amazing mom called him leanne
18:26walters called him and said hey i think
18:28there's something wrong with my water he
18:30drove up the Flint he offered to use his
18:31own money to do testing in Flint he
18:34inspected her whole house and he wrote a
18:37damning report a memo in July of 2015
18:41really early on with with alarm bells
18:44everywhere everywhere saying hey there
18:46is lead in Flint's water we need to look
18:49into this and and he was silenced the
18:51state called him a rogue employee Susan
18:54Hedman
18:55apologized for his behavior that he kind
18:57of stepped out of line so there were
18:59folks at the EPA who were trying to do
19:02good and the Michigan Department of
19:05Health and Human Services director Nick
19:06Lyons facing manslaughter charges this
19:10is because of the Legionnaires outbreak
19:12what should they have done at the time
19:15aside from not having switched the water
19:17supply yeah obviously I wish I could
19:19press rewind and never have switched to
19:21this water supply because it was all
19:22preventable this was all man-made but
19:25when we knew of the early signs of
19:28elevated lead levels when we we saw a
19:30few cases of Legionnaires disease people
19:32should have been alerted providers
19:34should have been alerted health advisory
19:37should have gone into effect when we
19:39knew this was corroding engine parts
19:40that should have been a red flag so
19:42there were so many missed opportunities
19:44that for 18 months people remained on
19:47this water source
19:49and suffer the consequences you had the
19:51unelected city managers as you talked
19:53about like Darnell early they also were
19:56indicted yes yes
19:57yep the emergency manager wasn't I did
20:00it you had the City Council of Flint
20:02voting overwhelmingly to return to the
20:06original water supply and the unelected
20:08manager saying how dare you do this
20:12because we can't afford it because poor
20:16people evidently are not good enough for
20:19clean water is this is this how our
20:21society is supposed to be shouldn't
20:23public welfare benefit all no matter
20:25your privilege so you have the crisis of
20:29Flint water and then you have the state
20:31of Michigan now approving a
20:34controversial permit to allow Nestle the
20:36largest water bottling company in the
20:38world to expand its operations in
20:40Michigan Michigan's Department of
20:42Environmental Quality has given the okay
20:44Nestle to withdraw 400 gallons a minute
20:48from the state's groundwater table
20:50despite receiving over 80,000 public
20:53comments against the project Nestle is
20:56not required to pay anything to extract
20:59this water besides a small permitting
21:01fee to the state and the cost of leases
21:03to private landowners according to one
21:05count Nestle's bottled water is seven
21:07thousand times more expensive than what
21:10Nestle is actually paying for it
21:12critics say Nestle shouldn't be allowed
21:14to profit from the state's natural
21:15resources at a time when Michigan cities
21:17like Flint are still facing a crisis
21:20over contaminated water when we went to
21:23Flint to talking to talk about the
21:26poisoning of American city
21:29also went to the source of Nestle's
21:31water because when we were in Flint we
21:34were being handed bottled water
21:35everywhere companies were giving
21:38truckloads of bottled water to people
21:41which was also great advertising for
21:42them but more importantly where was this
21:45water coming from the issue of this
21:49bottled water talk about it you mean
21:52this is unreal
21:53so the same week that the state granted
21:56Nestle this permit for $200 a year for
21:59unlimited access essentially to the
22:01Great Lakes was the same week that they
22:03cut bottled water for Flint there are
22:06people in Flint who still cannot afford
22:10but water they are to this day getting
22:13shut offs because they cannot pay their
22:15bills for water that that there still
22:18need to use a filter to drink from and
22:20we grant a corporation unlimited access
22:23to to the Great Lakes water it is mind
22:26boggling it is tone deaf it is unreal
22:29for this to happen Flint Michigan
22:32pediatrician dr. mona hanna-attisha her
22:35new book what the eyes don't see a story
22:38of crisis resistance and hope in an
22:40American city if you'd like to go back
22:43to the documentary we did in Flint when
22:46we were there during the height of the
22:48crisis you can go to Democracy Now org
22:51and put in to search thirsty for
22:54democracy the poisoning of an American
22:56city that does it for our show Democracy
22:58Now has a job opening for a broadcast
23:00engineer check our website at
23:02democracynow.org Democracy Now produced
23:04by Mike Burke Rene felts Carla wills
23:06Laura
23:07I'm al-kahf John Hamilton I'm Amy
23:09Goodman
23:18you

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