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Anthony Ray Hinton - Part 2: | Oprah's Super Soul Podcast | Presented By Hyundai — Transcript

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0:00NARRATOR: In celebration of Black History Month,
0:02Hyundai is proud to support the OWN network.
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0:35sold in California, Colorado, Connecticut, Maine,
0:38Massachusetts, Maryland, New Jersey, New York, Oregon,
0:42Rhode Island, and Vermont.
0:44OPRAH WINFREY: I'm Oprah Winfrey.
0:46Welcome to "Super Soul Conversations," the podcast.
0:50I believe that one of the most valuable gifts you
0:52can give yourself is time, taking
0:56time to be more fully present.
0:59Your journey to become more inspired and connected
1:03to the deeper world around us starts right now.
1:08Welcome to part two of our conversation.
1:11So your case, those of you who are going to read "The Sun Does
1:15Shine," you'll see that you tried to appeal,
1:18appeal, appeal, appeal appeal.
1:21And it's like they had decided that no matter what, they were
1:24going to keep you behind bars. ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
1:26OPRAH WINFREY: Yeah.
1:27ANTHONY RAY HINTON: A lot of people
1:29don't understand the justice system.
1:31OPRAH WINFREY: Yes.
1:32ANTHONY RAY HINTON: In the appeal process,
1:33actually what take so long.
1:35And on death penalty cases, the Alabama
1:38Criminal Court appeal would rule every four years on your case.
1:43And once they rule either for you or against you,
1:46if they rule against you, they send it
1:47to the Alabama Supreme Court.
1:49It takes them approximately four to five years before they rule.
1:54OPRAH WINFREY: But at least is there some relief for as
1:56long as you are appealing, at least
1:59you know you can't be fried.
2:00ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes. OPRAH WINFREY: Yeah.
2:01ANTHONY RAY HINTON: That's--
2:02OPRAH WINFREY: At least you know that.
2:04ANTHONY RAY HINTON: That is the dessert of it.
2:06OPRAH WINFREY: Yeah.
2:06ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Because they cannot set you a date.
2:08They cannot give you a date--
2:10OPRAH WINFREY: As long as you're appealing.
2:11ANTHONY RAY HINTON: --as long as you're appealing.
2:12OPRAH WINFREY: Yeah.
2:12ANTHONY RAY HINTON: It is, once your appeal is completely
2:15exhausted, it's when the state of Alabama
2:17goes to the Alabama Supreme Court and--
2:20OPRAH WINFREY: How many-- how often were you thinking about--
2:23because I don't know how you survive every day thinking,
2:26I didn't do it. I didn't do it.
2:28I didn't do it.
2:29Is there a point where you have to let that go--
2:31ANTHONY RAY HINTON: I did.
2:33OPRAH WINFREY: --and resign yourself, just surrender
2:36to whatever is happening now?
2:37ANTHONY RAY HINTON: I did.
2:38You have to.
2:40First and foremost, you have to.
2:42The life that you used to, you have to let it go because you
2:47cannot live that life anymore.
2:49And so somehow, you got to get that out of your brain.
2:52And the fact that you have an appeal process,
2:55you have to learn to adjust and learn
2:58the lawyer talk with that.
3:00And so what I did was I started enjoying life.
3:04I started playing basketball.
3:06I played with the Knicks.
3:07They won a championship.
3:09I played Wimbleton in my mind.
3:11I won five time Wimbledon grand slam.
3:13OPRAH WINFREY: Had you ever played--
3:15you played basketball-- ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
3:16OPRAH WINFREY: --before when you were out.
3:17ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
3:17OPRAH WINFREY: Had you played tennis before--
3:19ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
3:19OPRAH WINFREY: --when you were out?
3:19So, all these things, so you went to Wimbledon in your mind.
3:22ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
3:23OPRAH WINFREY: You won Wimbledon.
3:24ANTHONY RAY HINTON: I won it five times.
3:27OPRAH WINFREY: No need to go if you're not going to win.
3:30ANTHONY RAY HINTON: That's right.
3:30OPRAH WINFREY: You won it five times in your mind.
3:32ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
3:33And you know, it wasn't until Mr. Brunson--
3:36OPRAH WINFREY: Yeah.
3:37ANTHONY RAY HINTON: --he had invited
3:38me over to his private island.
3:39And me and him played a game of tennis.
3:41And he said, Ray, you played tennis on death row?
3:45I said, yes, sir.
3:46I won Wimbledon five times on death row.
3:48And he looked at me.
3:49He said, you do have a sense of humor.
3:51But I did play tennis before I went.
3:53And in my mind, everything I did,
3:55I was pretty good in sports.
3:57And I just kept going.
3:58And--
3:59OPRAH WINFREY: And this would occupy you for hours.
4:01ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Hours. Oh, yes.
4:03OPRAH WINFREY: Hours, days, and days and hours.
4:05ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes, and during baseball season,
4:08the Yankees, we was tied.
4:09We needed a home run.
4:12Who was at the bat? I was.
4:14OPRAH WINFREY: And so in your imagination,
4:15you would just walk through the whole game.
4:17ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes. OPRAH WINFREY: Every inning.
4:18ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Every inning.
4:20I would call timeout, and I would go up
4:22there and talk to the pitcher.
4:24And I was the coach.
4:25OPRAH WINFREY: That first night when there was somebody crying
4:28on death row, and then you ended up making a joke
4:31and recognizing that they lost their mom and had compassion,
4:35and then the men started speaking to each other
4:37for the first time-- ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
4:38OPRAH WINFREY: --right?
4:39And then you later found out that one of the people that you
4:42had been speaking to and had befriended
4:44was a man named Henry.
4:46ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
4:47OPRAH WINFREY: Can you tell me about Henry?
4:49ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Well, Henry was a Ku Klux Klansman's son.
4:52His daddy was a grand wizard in the Klan's organization.
4:56And I got to learn the story.
4:59Henry's father was upset that a Black man had got
5:02found not guilty in a murder trial,
5:05and he ordered him to go out and kill the first Black man
5:09that he came across.
5:10And they came across a 19-year-old.
5:12I think it was 19.
5:14And they befriended him, got him somehow tricked him in the car,
5:17and they hung him and cut his genitals off.
5:20And when he was--
5:22OPRAH WINFREY: This was in 1980-something, right?
5:24ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes. OPRAH WINFREY: Yeah.
5:26ANTHONY RAY HINTON: And so-- but when Henry came to death row--
5:28OPRAH WINFREY: He was the first white man convicted--
5:31ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes. OPRAH WINFREY: --of--
5:32ANTHONY RAY HINTON: --a lynching.
5:33OPRAH WINFREY: --a lynching in 85 years.
5:35ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes, yes.
5:36And as I got to know Henry and realized
5:40I didn't know who I was talk to.
5:42And--
5:43OPRAH WINFREY: So you all are just
5:44voices in the day and night.
5:45ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
5:46OPRAH WINFREY: Because nobody can see anybody on the row.
5:49ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Put you in a little cage and that's it.
5:50You got a wall between you and wall between you
5:53and got match in front of you, and that's it.
5:55But--
5:56OPRAH WINFREY: But after a while,
5:57you get to know that this voice coming from here,
6:00and you identify the names and the voice.
6:01ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
6:02And what I learned about Henry is that Henry had been
6:07taught to hate all his life.
6:09And myself along with some other Blacks,
6:13we didn't judge Henry because everybody was there
6:16for accused of killing someone.
6:19And so Henry and I became friends, and I kept wondering.
6:24OPRAH WINFREY: Was it difficult to become friends with a man
6:26who you knew had been accused and found guilty--
6:30not just accused, but is on death row for lynching--
6:33ANTHONY RAY HINTON: No.
6:33OPRAH WINFREY: --a young Black man?
6:34It was not. ANTHONY RAY HINTON: It was not.
6:35OPRAH WINFREY: Why was it not?
6:36ANTHONY RAY HINTON: It was not because I personally didn't
6:39know had Henry done that.
6:41I was there on death row for something I know I didn't do.
6:43So I couldn't just judge by him being guilty,
6:46and I never did asked him, did you do it.
6:48OPRAH WINFREY: You didn't.
6:49ANTHONY RAY HINTON: I never did ask him that.
6:51I just feel that wasn't my business.
6:53And if you did it, that's between you and your God.
6:56All I knew, I was there for something I didn't do.
6:58OPRAH WINFREY: Isn't it true that that's
7:00sort of the code of--
7:01ANTHONY RAY HINTON: It is.
7:02OPRAH WINFREY: --respect on the row that nobody asked anybody,
7:06did you really do it?
7:07ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Right, and not only that--
7:09what you have in so many prosecution that
7:12will come back and ask somebody to snitch and say
7:15they said something.
7:16It's best you don't say nothing.
7:17OPRAH WINFREY: Mm-hm.
7:18ANTHONY RAY HINTON: And so I didn't ask him did he did it.
7:22I really got to know Henry for Henry.
7:25And Henry--
7:27OPRAH WINFREY: Wasn't there a point where Henry
7:29said my ma and pa were wrong?
7:32They were wrong?
7:33ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes, on the night of the execution.
7:35We had told Henry about love and respect for one another.
7:38And let me say before I end this.
7:41Death row was the only place that I will be in where
7:43I didn't never witness racism.
7:46And I often thought about that.
7:48Why is it that I never witnessed racism here?
7:51It's because all of us had the same sentence--
7:54sentence to death.
7:55We went to bed with the death sentence over our head.
7:57We woke up with a death sentence over our head.
7:59We all wore the same clothes, the same tennis
8:02shoes, the same whatever.
8:03We all ate the same thing.
8:04So it was no different.
8:05It wasn't no need to be jealous.
8:08It wasn't no need to be racist.
8:10We all was there to die.
8:13And we all had to become, somehow become
8:16each other support system.
8:18And so--
8:19OPRAH WINFREY: So much so that you created a book club.
8:23ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
8:24OPRAH WINFREY: I'm very proud of my book club.
8:26ANTHONY RAY HINTON: I'm very proud of mine.
8:28OPRAH WINFREY: You had your own book club.
8:29ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
8:29OPRAH WINFREY: What gave you the idea for the book club?
8:32The fact that you were able to, in your own mind,
8:35go anywhere you wanted to, right?
8:37ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yeah.
8:38OPRAH WINFREY: And you wanted those men to be able to have
8:40the same experience--
8:41ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
8:42OPRAH WINFREY: --of traveling the world, expanding the way
8:45they see themselves in the world.
8:48And you could do it in your own mind.
8:49ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Absolutely.
8:50OPRAH WINFREY: But you thought books would help them do it.
8:52ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Absolutely.
8:53And not only that, I felt that society had let them down.
8:56I never forget.
8:57I used to ask, what grade that you drop out of school,
9:00if you don't mind me action?
9:01Everyone was the seventh and eighth grade.
9:03And I'm saying, how did y'all drop out at the seventh
9:06and eighth grade?
9:08If I missed a day, the teacher would find my mama and say,
9:12Anthony didn't come to school?
9:13Did you know it?
9:14And most of all, the answer was, man, didn't nobody really
9:18care about going to school.
9:20They didn't care whether we came or not.
9:22So I dropped out.
9:23So I felt the society had let them down in that regard.
9:27They didn't make them go to school.
9:28And so therefore, they didn't learn.
9:30And so I knew that books would open up your mind
9:34and make you be in places that you never thought you could be.
9:37And so I first had to ask the warden about a book club.
9:41And I goes up there, and I asked him about.
9:44He said, well, what's in it for you?
9:46I said, nothing in it for me.
9:47I said, warden, wouldn't you prefer these men
9:49to be reading a book and having their time spent on something
9:53else than to be thinking about and spitting
9:56out on your officers and throwing feces out on them?
10:00Wouldn't it be better if we could just read a book?
10:03And he said, let me think about it.
10:05He thought about it and sent me word that we could.
10:07And I chose James Baldwin.
10:09And I had read James Baldwin before.
10:12OPRAH WINFREY: So you have the white racist KKK people--
10:15ANTHONY RAY HINTON: I had two of them.
10:17OPRAH WINFREY: --on your book club reading James Baldwin.
10:18ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes, and--
10:20OPRAH WINFREY: I heard you all read James Baldwin.
10:22ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
10:22OPRAH WINFREY: "Go Tell It On the Mountain."
10:23ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
10:24I loved the James Baldwin, but I also
10:26read all the books like "Your Blues Ain't Like Mine."
10:29I read "To Kill a Mockingbird."
10:30OPRAH WINFREY: Yeah.
10:31ANTHONY RAY HINTON: And "To Kill a Mockingbird" was me.
10:35OPRAH WINFREY: Yes. ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Exactly.
10:36OPRAH WINFREY: You were Tom. ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Oh yes.
10:38OPRAH WINFREY: Yeah.
10:39ANTHONY RAY HINTON: And people say,
10:41well, how could you read it?
10:42I said, it gave me a better sight why I was there.
10:47I said, "To Kill a Mockingbird" is
10:49one of the south's most embraced book, but that book is true.
10:54I was Tommy.
10:56I really was Tommy if you read the book.
10:59And so what this particular book--
11:01I wanted Henry to read it and see what he would
11:04really think about his father.
11:08I really wanted him to think about how Black men and women
11:12in this country have paved way, and we are authors,
11:15and read about them some.
11:17And Henry had a profound respect for--
11:19OPRAH WINFREY: "To Kill a Mockingbird."
11:21ANTHONY RAY HINTON: --"To Kill a Mockingbird."
11:21OPRAH WINFREY: You wrote that we are all slowly dying
11:24from our own fear, our minds killing
11:27us quicker than the state of Alabama ever could.
11:29ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
11:30OPRAH WINFREY: That's why you wanted them to have the books.
11:31ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
11:31OPRAH WINFREY: Men would do all kinds of crazy things
11:34rather than spend another night with their own thoughts.
11:36Bring in the books, I thought.
11:39Let every man on the row have a week away
11:41inside the world of a book.
11:45I knew if the mind could open, the heart would follow.
11:48It had happened to Henry.
11:50Look at him, sitting here in a locker room with five Black men
11:54who had nothing to lose.
11:56He'd been taught to hate us and fear us so much that he had
12:00thought it was in his rights to go and find a teenage boy
12:03and beat and stab and lynch him just because of the color
12:07of his skin.
12:08I had no anger toward Henry.
12:10He had been taught to fear Blacks.
12:12He had been trained to hate.
12:14Death row had been good for Henry.
12:17Death row had saved his soul.
12:19Death row had taught him that his hate was wrong.
12:22ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
12:24And you know--
12:26OPRAH WINFREY: He died knowing that.
12:27ANTHONY RAY HINTON: He died.
12:28And what I loved--
12:30on the night of his execution, they ask you two things--
12:33what you want for your last meal and do you have anything
12:37you want to say.
12:39And I was told that Henry said all
12:42of my life, my father, my mother, my community
12:46taught me to hate.
12:49The very people that they taught me to hate
12:51are the very people that taught me how to love.
12:53And tonight, as I leave this world,
12:57I leave this world knowing what love feels like.
13:05And I often say that if we can teach people to hate,
13:08we should be able to teach them to love.
13:11OPRAH WINFREY: Yeah.
13:12ANTHONY RAY HINTON: And I fought society.
13:14I fought this.
13:16It takes a village to raise a child,
13:18and I often ask where was this village when this young boy was
13:21being taught to hate.
13:23Where was this village when he needed them the most?
13:28And so that book club and the fact
13:31that we treated Henry no different,
13:35I really believe Henry left his world
13:38a better man than he came in.
13:41OPRAH WINFREY: So, you've been out now,
13:43what, two years, three years?
13:46Death row taught Henry to love.
13:48What did it teach you?
13:50ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Death row taught me that either you
13:52love or you hate.
13:53Death row taught me you either help or you harm.
13:56Death row taught me you never know the moment, the second,
14:00your life would change forever.
14:02And you can't see it coming.
14:05You don't know when it's coming.
14:06And so death row taught me no matter where we are,
14:11we still can love, and we still can help one another.
14:15And although all of us was there together,
14:18we didn't know each other, but we came together
14:21as a bunch of men that the world said that the world would
14:23be better if we wasn't in it.
14:25And I tried to bring to them that no matter where we,
14:29we can make this the home.
14:31It may not be where we want to be.
14:33It may not be where some of us should be.
14:35But let's love one another, and let's
14:40do what we can for one another.
14:41OPRAH WINFREY: What is remarkable in this story
14:44"The Sun Does Shine" is that your friend Lester,
14:49you all were friends who had been friends since you were,
14:52what--
14:53ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Four years old.
14:54OPRAH WINFREY: Four years old.
14:55ANTHONY RAY HINTON: He was four and I was six.
14:56OPRAH WINFREY: Four and six.
14:57That your friend Lester, he was in that courtroom the day
15:01you were sentenced to death, and he came to visit you in prison
15:08every single week without fail.
15:12ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Didn't ask for anything.
15:14He--
15:14OPRAH WINFREY: For 30 years.
15:17ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
15:19They don't make them like that anymore.
15:22They don't come like that anymore.
15:23OPRAH WINFREY: Where he'd have to drive for hours?
15:26ANTHONY RAY HINTON: It was--
15:28if I'm not mistaken, it's about 268 miles or better one way.
15:33OPRAH WINFREY: Oh my--
15:34ANTHONY RAY HINTON: And he was working 11:00 to 7:00.
15:39He would get off on a Friday and drive all the way.
15:43And I would tell him, listen.
15:45You done worked all night, don't come down here.
15:47But at 9:15, he was there, clockwork.
15:52They would roll my door and reveals, and I knew who it was.
15:56Lester made me-- if this makes any sense
16:03to anybody, all my life, I thought
16:05I knew what friendship meant.
16:07But Lester didn't show me what it meant.
16:11Lester didn't asked me how I was doing.
16:13He came to see how I was doing.
16:15Lester didn't say, write me.
16:17He always said, call me.
16:19And no matter what the prison would allow us to have,
16:22Lester didn't want me to ask anyone but him.
16:25And that way, he knew that I would get it.
16:29And so Lester just showed me what
16:31real friendship is all about.
16:33And he didn't come expecting anything because none of us
16:39could really say I would be here where I am today.
16:42So I knew he did it out of love and the friendship
16:45that we have always had for one another.
16:47Lester and I have had some close call walking from school
16:53and having to duck in the woods and all kind of--
16:55OPRAH WINFREY: White men would drive by,
16:57and you were young boys.
16:58You'd go jump in the ditch because--
17:01illegal just to be on the road--
17:03ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes, yes.
17:04OPRAH WINFREY: --or certainly not illegal but dangerous.
17:07ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Oh, very dangerous.
17:07OPRAH WINFREY: Dangerous to be two Black boys on a road.
17:10ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes. And--
17:11OPRAH WINFREY: Regardless of where you were going
17:13or where you'd come from.
17:14ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Absolutely.
17:15And Lester, you know, just was a godsend.
17:20He didn't want me to feel alone. OPRAH WINFREY: Yeah.
17:22ANTHONY RAY HINTON: And I can't even
17:23begin to express to people how important that is when you is
17:28confined and in a cell to know that you
17:33have someone that care about you that much to come see you.
17:37And not only that-- it keeps the guards
17:40from beating you and whooping you
17:42because they know you got somebody
17:43going to come and see you.
17:44And if something had been wrong with me,
17:46Lester was going to say, how'd Ray get those scratches
17:49and bruises on his face?
17:51And, well, I'm going to go and see a lawyer.
17:54And so Lester was just--
17:57oh, Lester's a godsend, and I often tell him.
18:00Even when we was in our mother's womb,
18:03God knew you would be my ram in the bush.
18:06And so he's just everything to me, and I love him as a friend.
18:11I love him as a brother.
18:12And I just wish the world, everybody, could
18:16have a friend like Lester. OPRAH WINFREY: Like Lester.
18:17ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
18:18OPRAH WINFREY: The night that broke you that you thought
18:22for a moment you weren't going to recover from
18:24was when they came to tell you that your mother had died.
18:26And you know, I know for you and certainly
18:28as I read the book, one of the deepest sorrows
18:32is that your mother didn't get to see you free
18:34and that the last time she saw you
18:36and every time she heard your voice, she said,
18:38son, when are you coming home? ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
18:40OPRAH WINFREY: When are you coming home?
18:42ANTHONY RAY HINTON: She would ask me that,
18:44and I'd lied to her every time she asked me.
18:47OPRAH WINFREY: Mm-hm.
18:48ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Mama, they working on it.
18:50It's just going to take some time.
18:51And at some point, I didn't know what's my mother
18:55was trying to protect me.
18:56I knew I was trying to protect her and the truth.
18:59And I couldn't say Mama, next year or next month.
19:04And the night I found out that my mom had died,
19:09I really didn't give a damn will I
19:12live because I truly believe that my mom died
19:23of a broken heart.
19:24OPRAH WINFREY: Yeah.
19:26ANTHONY RAY HINTON: And I guess in some way, I feel like she--
19:31I often say she got tired of waiting.
19:33OPRAH WINFREY: Yeah.
19:35ANTHONY RAY HINTON: And she left this world.
19:38And that night, I had called Mr. Stevenson.
19:41And I told Mr. Stevenson.
19:44OPRAH WINFREY: Ah, yeah.
19:45ANTHONY RAY HINTON: I said, I don't
19:46give a damn about this case.
19:48And I said, my mom gone, and I don't see myself in this world
19:51without my mom.
19:52And without saying thank you, without saying I appreciate,
19:57I just hung up.
19:58And that night as I tried to sleep,
20:01it was as though my mom came in the cell
20:03and stayed in my ear all night long.
20:06And I could hear her saying, I did not
20:08bring you up to be a quitter.
20:10I did not bring you up to stop.
20:13I want you to fight.
20:14I taught you to fight when you have to fight.
20:17And it wasn't until my mom--
20:19I could hear my mom saying, I'm disappointed in you.
20:26Because every baseball game, everything I was in,
20:34my mom was my biggest cheerleader.
20:38And when I would strikeout, she was there to see,
20:41you hit it the next time.
20:44And my mom would always hug me and tell me how good
20:49and how proud she was of me.
20:52And that night, I could hear my mom telling me that she
20:58was disappointed in me.
21:00OPRAH WINFREY: Because you had been thinking
21:02about killing yourself.
21:03You were thinking about killing yourself--
21:04ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
21:05OPRAH WINFREY: --after finding out that she had died.
21:09ANTHONY RAY HINTON: And earlier that morning, I
21:12called Mr. Stevenson, and I said, Mr. Stevenson, I
21:16want to apologize for hanging up,
21:17but I had a moment of weakness.
21:22I want you to give the State of Alabama
21:25all the hell you can give them.
21:28OPRAH WINFREY: By that time, Bryan Stevenson
21:30had already been on your case-- ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
21:31OPRAH WINFREY: --for how many years?
21:33ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Oh, about five or six, I think.
21:37OPRAH WINFREY: The twists and turns and even Bryan Stevenson
21:41on the case trying, trying, pushing, pushing, and everybody
21:45can see that there's been a miscarriage of justice here.
21:50Still, the state of Alabama would not.
21:52ANTHONY RAY HINTON: No.
21:53Bryan Stevenson went out and got--
21:55OPRAH WINFREY: Ballistic-- the best experts
21:58who said those bullets could not possibly
22:00been fired from that gun.
22:02ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
22:03OPRAH WINFREY: And they still would not do anything.
22:05ANTHONY RAY HINTON: No.
22:06OPRAH WINFREY: Would not reopen the case.
22:07ANTHONY RAY HINTON: No.
22:09OPRAH WINFREY: At that point, though,
22:09were you ready to give up?
22:10Because once you've got the ballistics experts,
22:13you've got the new FBI--
22:14and it's almost, what, it's over 20 years later.
22:17ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
22:18OPRAH WINFREY: They find the gun.
22:19First, they lost the gun.
22:20Then they accuse Bryan Stevenson of stealing the gun.
22:22ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
22:23OPRAH WINFREY: They find the gun,
22:24and they realize beyond a shadow of a doubt those bullets could
22:29not have come from the gun-- ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
22:31OPRAH WINFREY: --and that the whole thing was a sham--
22:32ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
22:33OPRAH WINFREY: --they still refuse to reopen the case.
22:35ANTHONY RAY HINTON: And it took the United
22:39States Supreme Court--
22:40I never forget.
22:41He came down to the prison.
22:43He said, Ray, the judges in Alabama
22:46is not going to do the right thing.
22:48And he said, I'm going to have to take this case to the United
22:51States Supreme Court.
22:53But he said, I need to tell you something.
22:56And he said, if they rule against you,
23:01the state of Alabama will execute within two years.
23:05And believe it or not, hearing that was somewhat of a relief.
23:10OPRAH WINFREY: Mm-hm, because it could be over.
23:12ANTHONY RAY HINTON: I was tired of sitting there.
23:14I'm tired of being in this cage.
23:16And I said, Mr. Stevenson, file my case.
23:18OPRAH WINFREY: Yeah.
23:19And at one point, there was a lawyer who had offered
23:22you the opportunity to take a--
23:24ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Life without parole.
23:26OPRAH WINFREY: Life without parole.
23:27ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
23:27OPRAH WINFREY: And you said, I don't want life without parole.
23:30ANTHONY RAY HINTON: I said, life without parole
23:32is for guilty people.
23:33I said, I'm going to tell you something
23:36that you may not understand.
23:39I said, 12 years old, I never will forget this.
23:43My mom told me.
23:44She said, if you man enough to bend down and pick up a rock
23:51and if you man enough to throw that rock,
23:53always be man enough to say I throw that rock.
23:58I said, this is one rock I didn't throw.
24:01Therefore, I could never stand up and say, I
24:03throw this rock when I didn't.
24:06And I said, and since you don't believe in me,
24:08I have no choice but to fire you.
24:11But he was trying to get me a life without parole,
24:14and I said life without parole is for guilty people.
24:16I'd rather die for something that the state of Alabama
24:19knew that I didn't do then to stay in prison
24:22for the rest of my life.
24:23That's not a life.
24:26And so I'd rather not be in this world.
24:29So be it.
24:29And that's what I do.
24:31OPRAH WINFREY: Finally, after Bryan Stevenson and the Equal
24:35Justice Initiative taking on this case, 16 years later
24:40after they took on the case, you finally are released after he
24:45goes to the Supreme Court.
24:47ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes, ma'am.
24:48OPRAH WINFREY: And he was just asking
24:50the Supreme Court to review it.
24:51ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
24:52OPRAH WINFREY: And in their review, they made a decision.
24:55ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
24:56OPRAH WINFREY: What did you feel like that day?
24:59ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Oh, we had came up for here,
25:01and he was in New York.
25:03And one of his lawyers had just left,
25:05and he came back right quick.
25:07He said, you need to call Bryan.
25:09And I called Mr. Stevenson, and Mr.
25:12Stevenson was telling me, Ray, you're
25:14not going to believe this.
25:16And I sit down.
25:19And he told me.
25:20He said, Ray, the United States Supreme Court have
25:23ruled 9 to 0 in your favor.
25:26Ray, you're going home.
25:31I said, Mr. Stevenson, this is April Fool.
25:34Then I thought about who Brayn Stevenson was.
25:36He's not like a jokester.
25:39And I took the phone away from him and I cried like a baby
25:42right there in front of all the other inmates
25:45that I didn't know.
25:46And I got back on the phone, and I said, when?
25:49He said, I'm headed back to Birmingham.
25:52And I can't tell you exactly, but I'm going to find out,
25:56and we'll know.
25:57And he said, I'm going to talk to the judge, and he did.
25:59And judge wanted to keep me in one day longer.
26:02He said, no.
26:03I want him out as soon as possible.
26:05And I got out on Good Friday and hadn't been to like
26:11a regular church in 30 years.
26:12And that Sunday, I was able to go to my first Easter service.
26:16And every Good Friday is my anniversary.
26:20And so had it not been for Bryan Stevenson,
26:23God sending me his best attorney,
26:26I wouldn't be sitting here. I wouldn't be in this world.
26:28OPRAH WINFREY: No.
26:28ANTHONY RAY HINTON: The state of Alabama
26:30knew that I was not the person.
26:32They knew that gun didn't match.
26:34And to this day, no one in the state of Alabama
26:37have had the decency to apologize to me.
26:40OPRAH WINFREY: Would it mean something if they did?
26:43ANTHONY RAY HINTON: It would for this reason.
26:46It matters to me that the victim family
26:48think that I'm still the person that killed their loved one.
26:52I think they deserve truth as well.
26:54And it would mean to mean that for a society that believes
26:59in the death penalty, we do send innocent men
27:02and women to death row.
27:03And just to hear the authority, the system,
27:06say we made a mistake would mean a lot to me.
27:10And it won't give me back what I lost,
27:13but it would mean a great deal to me for them to say,
27:16we're sorry.
27:18We made a mistake, and we promise
27:20that we will not do this again.
27:22OPRAH WINFREY: So, early on, you talked about when you'd
27:26been held for a year and a half before trial
27:30and thinking that you were going to get out after the trial
27:33that you just wanted to smell something other than the sweat
27:37and the musk and the mold and that you just wanted to be
27:41able to feel some rain on your face,
27:44and you wanted to be able to see the sunshine.
27:47What was it like once you finally
27:49were released 30 years later?
27:52ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Oh, it was--
27:53OPRAH WINFREY: And you felt rain on your face
27:55for the first time?
27:55ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Oh, it was wonderful.
27:57I mean, I could just--
27:59stayed in the rain that whole day if I could have.
28:03And everybody kept saying, get out of the rain.
28:05You'll get sick.
28:06I said, I haven't had rain on my body for 30 years.
28:10And my little niece was with me, and she pops a little umbrella,
28:14and she said, come on, Uncle Ray.
28:16Get up on the umbrella with me.
28:17And I said, no.
28:18I'm going to walk in the rain.
28:20And she said, Uncle Ray, it's not natural for anybody
28:23to walk in the rain the way you do.
28:26And I looked at it, and I said, you know, for 30 years,
28:30not a drop of rain was allowed to follow my body.
28:35I said, so let me enjoy this rain.
28:37And to this day, I still walk in the rain
28:41as though I just came out of it yesterday.
28:44I just loved the feel of it.
28:46Oh, I don't care about the clothes.
28:48I just love to feel.
28:49It's so cool and refreshing, and it's the only thing I know
28:53that haven't been contaminated.
28:55It comes from God.
28:57And so I just love it.
28:59OPRAH WINFREY: I can't imagine.
29:00I was trying to think about 1989.
29:03We didn't even have those--
29:04I think we just started those big brick cell phones, right?
29:07ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Oh, really?
29:08OPRAH WINFREY: The cell phones that look like bricks.
29:10ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Oh, OK.
29:11OPRAH WINFREY: Or were they still dialing--
29:12were they still dialing--
29:13your mama probably still had a dial phone.
29:15ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yeah, she did.
29:16OPRAH WINFREY: --on the wall. ANTHONY RAY HINTON: She did.
29:17OPRAH WINFREY: In the kitchen, phone
29:18on the wall in the kitchen. ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Absolutely.
29:19OPRAH WINFREY: So, when you come out, and it's cell phones,
29:22and it's social media--
29:24after all, it's Lester.
29:25ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
29:26OPRAH WINFREY: Your friend who's been there every single week--
29:28ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
29:28OPRAH WINFREY: --who picks you up in prison.
29:30And you come out, and you're in Lester's car--
29:33ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
29:34He asked me.
29:35He said, what's the first place you wanted to go?
29:37And I really believe Lester thought I was going to say,
29:40let's go get something to eat. OPRAH WINFREY: Yes.
29:41ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Because I always complain about the food.
29:44But I said, I want you to take me
29:46where they laid my mother body.
29:48I said, I know she's not there, but I want to just
29:50see where they laid her body.
29:52And he said, OK.
29:53And I put on the seat belt. He put on his,
29:57and he cranks the car up, and I'm seeing him
30:00messing with the radio dials.
30:02I'm thinking he's trying to find the radio station.
30:04He put it in drive, and we going down the road.
30:06And about a little distant, this white lady come on.
30:12She said, 1/10 of a mile, turn right.
30:15And I jumped.
30:16I said, what the hell?
30:18And he's laughing though because I'm thinking
30:21a white woman is in the back.
30:23And I know didn't but two of us get in this car.
30:26And I'm afraid to look back.
30:28And I'm saying, white lady back there.
30:32And he laughed.
30:33And so he--
30:34I said-- and he can't take it no longer.
30:38He pulls over to the side of the road, and he said,
30:42this is a GPS.
30:43I said, what is that?
30:45I said, you heard the white lady.
30:47He said, she's isn't here.
30:48I said, how'd she get in there?
30:53Oh, thank you.
30:55A real human being is one thing.
30:57They don't open up the passenger side,
30:59and somehow, she can lay in there or whatever and can tell.
31:04And he's explaining it to me going--
31:07OPRAH WINFREY: She's laying down under the seat
31:09telling you which way to go.
31:10ANTHONY RAY HINTON: And he said, all
31:12you have to do is punch in the address,
31:14and she'll tell you exactly how to go and where
31:16to turn and everything.
31:17And I said, you mean to tell me you
31:20don't have to stop at the filling station
31:22and get direction no more?
31:24OPRAH WINFREY: No more.
31:25ANTHONY RAY HINTON: And it made me realize I've
31:28been locked up a long time.
31:30OPRAH WINFREY: Yes.
31:31ANTHONY RAY HINTON: I don't say it.
31:32I realize I've been locked up a long time.
31:36The world have changed.
31:38And they had Walmart.
31:41And I'm saying, this is a one stop place?
31:44OPRAH WINFREY: Yeah. ANTHONY RAY HINTON: You know?
31:45And--
31:46OPRAH WINFREY: Walmart. ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
31:48OPRAH WINFREY: And Amazon Prime.
31:49ANTHONY RAY HINTON: It's amazing.
31:50OPRAH WINFREY: What have been the other
31:52incredible discoveries for you?
31:54ANTHONY RAY HINTON: The infrastructure--
31:55OPRAH WINFREY: Yeah.
31:56ANTHONY RAY HINTON: --where I used to live,
31:58it no longer exists.
31:59They done made an interstate through there.
32:02You can actually come from out of Atlanta
32:04all the way into Memphis, Tennessee without stopping.
32:07And it's-- to me, modern technology
32:10and the infrastructure have changed.
32:13And you don't see self-serve filling station anymore
32:17where people come out and pumped your gas,
32:19and all you have are these things now called credit cards.
32:23And everything is a swipe, and you're gone.
32:24OPRAH WINFREY: Yeah.
32:25ANTHONY RAY HINTON: And when I first got home, I stayed froze.
32:30Lester and I went to a restaurant,
32:31and I had some sweet tea in my hand.
32:35And I didn't see him hand the lady in any money.
32:38And I'm so thinking that I'm going back to jail.
32:41You didn't pay.
32:42I don't have any money.
32:44And he forgot, and he turned around,
32:46and he realized that he hadn't explained this to me.
32:50He said, come on.
32:51I said, I don't have any money to pay for my tea.
32:54He said, I paid for it already.
32:56I said, you didn't that lady no money.
32:58I'm watching you.
32:59And he said, I'm sorry.
33:00He said, this is a credit card.
33:02And I swiped it, and it's paid for.
33:04OPRAH WINFREY: Wow.
33:05ANTHONY RAY HINTON: So, life, all of that,
33:08you know what happened-- OPRAH WINFREY: Cell phones.
33:10ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes. OPRAH WINFREY: All of it.
33:11ANTHONY RAY HINTON: And to this day,
33:13I'm still not familiar with the cell phone.
33:15I can do certain things.
33:17I don't know how to download.
33:18I can email you back.
33:20I can text you back.
33:22I can take a picture, but that's it.
33:24OPRAH WINFREY: And you can talk.
33:25ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Oh, and I can talk.
33:26Yes. OPRAH WINFREY: That's good.
33:28You're good to go.
33:28ANTHONY RAY HINTON: But-- now, if you call me and say,
33:31Mr. Stevenson, one of you going to have to hang up
33:34because I don't know how to put you
33:35on hold and go back and get him.
33:38And so people keep trying, and I get it confused.
33:41And I said-- OPRAH WINFREY: That's OK.
33:43You're doing just fine.
33:44You really are doing just fine.
33:46ANTHONY RAY HINTON: I think.
33:47OPRAH WINFREY: Do you spend a lot of time thinking
33:48about what you lost?
33:49ANTHONY RAY HINTON: I do sometime.
33:51And the greatest of it all is the years
33:53that I lost with my mother.
33:55There's nothing in this world that I feel I lost
33:57more than those years with her.
34:00Again, you have to know where I come from and our life,
34:03but my mom have always been there for me,
34:06and I would just love to have been there
34:08to give her some cold water or make her some soup
34:12and feed it to her like she would do me if I was sick.
34:15And I didn't get the opportunity,
34:17but get me more than anything, I didn't get--
34:24I didn't get to say goodbye.
34:29So they took more than just 30 years for me,
34:33and I could never, ever get that out of my mind
34:40that I didn't say goodbye like my other brothers
34:43and sisters there.
34:45And I feel that I was cheated.
34:47But--
34:51OPRAH WINFREY: You said that there's not a day--
34:53or there's not a night now, even,
34:56that you don't pull out her picture
34:59and say, good night, Mama.
35:01Do you feel the presence of her with you now?
35:03ANTHONY RAY HINTON: I do sometimes.
35:04I really feel when I have got up and made
35:08a speech or something--
35:09OPRAH WINFREY: Yeah.
35:10ANTHONY RAY HINTON: --it's like, I can hear
35:12her saying I'm proud of you. OPRAH WINFREY: Mm-hm.
35:14ANTHONY RAY HINTON: You done good.
35:15OPRAH WINFREY: Mm-hm.
35:16ANTHONY RAY HINTON: And I think the thing that my mom always
35:20have supported me whenever I did something good, got an A
35:23or whatever, she would always cook me a nice peach
35:26cobbler or blackberry pie.
35:28And I don't have nobody to do that now.
35:31So I just miss my mom in the way that I had a great relationship
35:37with her, and I couldn't tell you anyone I respect
35:40more than I did my mother.
35:42It was always yes, ma'am, and no,
35:43ma'am, and whatever she said, I obeyed her
35:47because she gave me her all.
35:48OPRAH WINFREY: I feel like she's still giving it to you.
35:51ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yeah.
35:52OPRAH WINFREY: I feel like that she's guiding you in places
35:56that you never even imagined-- even you, who's been
36:00to see the Queen of England.
36:01ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
36:03Oh, yes, sir.
36:04OPRAH WINFREY: It's been my pleasure
36:06and my honor to speak to you.
36:07ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Thank you so much.
36:08OPRAH WINFREY: You're a good man.
36:09ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Thank you. Thank you.
36:10OPRAH WINFREY: Good man.
36:11Thank you.
36:12ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Thank you so much.
36:13OPRAH WINFREY: "The Sun Does Shine--
36:15How I Found Life and Freedom On"--
36:17ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Death row.
36:18OPRAH WINFREY: --"Death Row.
36:20Beautiful.
36:23I'm Oprah Winfrey, and you've been listening to "Super Soul
36:26Conversations," the podcast.
36:28You can follow "Super Soul" on Instagram,
36:31Twitter, and Facebook.
36:33If you haven't yet, go to Apple Podcasts and subscribe, rate,
36:37and review this podcast.
36:39Join me next week for another "Super Soul Conversation."
36:42Thank you for listening.

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