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Anthony Ray Hinton - Part 1: | Oprah's Super Soul Podcast | Presented By Hyundai — Transcript

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0:00ANNOUNCER: In celebration of Black History Month,
0:02Hyundai is proud to support the O Network.
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0:30about the 2023 Hyundai Tucson.
0:32The 2023 Tucson plug-in hybrid is only
0:35sold in California, Colorado, Connecticut, Maine,
0:38Massachusetts, Maryland, New Jersey, New York, Oregon,
0:42Rhode Island, and Vermont.
0:44[THEME MUSIC]
0:45OPRAH WINFREY: I'm Oprah Winfrey.
0:46Welcome to "Super Soul Conversations," the podcast.
0:50I believe that one of the most valuable gifts
0:52you can give yourself is time--
0:56taking time to be more fully present.
0:59Your journey to become more inspired and connected
1:03to the deeper world around us starts right now.
1:08In 1985, 29-year-old Anthony Ray Hinton was arrested and charged
1:13with the brutal murders of two fast food restaurant
1:16workers in Birmingham, Alabama.
1:19Despite no eyewitnesses, no evidence against him,
1:23and a solid alibi, Anthony Hinton
1:26was tried by a white prosecutor, a white judge,
1:29and an all-white jury, found guilty, and sentenced to death.
1:34For 30 years, Anthony Hinton suffered in isolation
1:38and darkness on Death Row.
1:40During that time, he was forced to bear witness
1:43as 54 men and one woman walked right by his cell
1:47down the long hallway to their execution.
1:50But not even Death Row could dim the light
1:53inside Anthony Ray Hinton.
1:55For nearly three decades, he found a way
1:58to hang on to hope, stay positive,
2:00and even inspire his fellow inmates and the prison guards.
2:03And then, one fateful day, Anthony Hinton
2:06met criminal defense attorney Bryan Stevenson.
2:09Stevenson and the Equal Justice initiative
2:12spent 16 years working on Mr. Hinton's case.
2:15Finally, in 2014, the United States Supreme Court
2:19unanimously overturned Anthony Ray Hinton's conviction.
2:23On a spring morning in Alabama, after 30 years on Death Row,
2:28Anthony Hinton walked out of the Jefferson
2:31County Jail a free man.
2:33Now, his moving, awe-inspiring memoir, "The Sun Does Shine,"
2:38is my latest Book Club selection.
2:40It is a powerful lesson on faith, forgiveness,
2:44and redemption that I believe will not only inspire, but also
2:47will wake a lot of people up to unjust circumstances that
2:51are happening every day in our country.
2:55So welcome to our podcast here.
2:57ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Well, thank you for having me here.
2:58OPRAH WINFREY: I bet there was a time where you never thought
3:01you would be sitting here in my office,
3:03or even seeing the sunshine the way
3:06it is out here on this beautiful California day.
3:08ANTHONY RAY HINTON: No, I really didn't.
3:10When you've been convicted of capital murder,
3:12especially in the South, and you don't have the money
3:17to afford an attorney-- OPRAH WINFREY: Yeah
3:18ANTHONY RAY HINTON: --it's just, in your mind,
3:20just a matter of time.
3:21OPRAH WINFREY: Just a matter of time?
3:23Just a matter of time? ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes, ma'am.
3:25OPRAH WINFREY: So you spent--
3:26I want to just tell our audience here,
3:28I've been listening to people's stories for most of my career,
3:32since I was 19 years old, and this
3:33is one of the most incredible stories I've ever heard.
3:37You spent nearly 30 years on Death Row for crimes
3:40you did not commit.
3:44It's really, you know, when I was reading your story,
3:47I was trying to picture myself holding on to hope,
3:50holding on, keeping the faith.
3:52I don't know if I could have done it.
3:54I just don't know if I could have done it.
3:56But you survived.
3:57And it's really an incredible story of faith,
4:00and resilience, and triumph.
4:02I thought about Viktor Frankl, actually,
4:04and his book that he wrote when he was in the camps in Germany,
4:08in Auschwitz, called "Man's Search for Meaning."
4:11And I think you found a lot of meaning in those years.
4:14ANTHONY RAY HINTON: I did.
4:15The first three years I went into this dark hole.
4:21And not realizing at the time, but that dark hole is what
4:27saved me.
4:27OPRAH WINFREY: Saved you.
4:28I just wanted to tell people who aren't familiar
4:31with "The Sun Does Shine," I hope you will get the book
4:34and read it.
4:34It's the reason why I've chosen it as this summer's Book
4:39Club Selection, because I just think
4:40every person should read it.
4:43One of the reviews said, "In his intense memoir,
4:46Anthony Ray Hinton recounts his three-decade nightmare
4:49awaiting execution for crimes he didn't commit.
4:53Mr. Hinton here provides a convincing description
4:55of continued segregation and injustice in the Deep South
4:59that cages the underclass as effectively as prison walls.
5:03His depictions of prison life are wrenching.
5:05After 30 years, his dogged pursuit of Justice
5:08led civil rights attorney Bryan Stevenson to adopt his cause.
5:12Mr. Hinton was freed from prison in 2015
5:15and now works as a motivational speaker.
5:17His life is one of inspiration, which he wonderfully relays
5:21here in bitingly honest prose.
5:23It's a masterful, moving read.
5:25So congratulations--
5:27ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Thank you so much.
5:28OPRAH WINFREY: --on getting this book done.
5:29And I love that you call it "The Sun Does Shine."
5:32ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes, ma'am.
5:33OPRAH WINFREY: Because those were your words when you came
5:37outside for the first time after being
5:39held behind bars for 30 years.
5:41ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes, ma'am.
5:43OPRAH WINFREY: And everybody was expecting you to say something.
5:45ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes. OPRAH WINFREY: And you said?
5:46ANTHONY RAY HINTON: The sun does shine.
5:48I never will forget that morning that exactly,
5:50the judge had ordered me to be released at 9:30.
5:54And I had told Mr. Stevenson to bring me a suit.
5:57And he brought me the suit.
5:59We changed, and I kept looking at the watch.
6:01And finally, at 9:30, they ushered us through the door.
6:05And it seemed as though the sun was shining on no one but me.
6:09And I looked over at Mr. Stevenson,
6:11and here was the sun shining on him as well.
6:13And I couldn't see it.
6:15And then, as I walked through the fall,
6:17it was just as though the sun was following me.
6:21And I got up to the podium, and I said, the sun does shine.
6:25Because I had been in pure hell and darkness
6:30for all those years.
6:31And I don't think I can even put it in that book
6:34or tell you today what it's like to be on Death Row--
6:37OPRAH WINFREY: Yeah.
6:38ANTHONY RAY HINTON: --for something
6:38that you know you didn't do. OPRAH WINFREY: Yeah.
6:40ANTHONY RAY HINTON: And you put up with everything
6:42you have to put up with.
6:43OPRAH WINFREY: Well, you know, in every story,
6:46I think people try to imagine themselves in that story,
6:49or imagine themselves what would you do or have done.
6:52And I remember years ago, I was on trial in 1998
6:56for saying something bad about a burger.
6:58And I was on trial for six weeks in Texas.
7:00ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Wow.
7:01OPRAH WINFREY: And I remember thinking every day,
7:04what if the sentencing here was not just money or a fine--
7:09I was found not guilty, by the way.
7:11ANTHONY RAY HINTON: That's good. [LAUGHS]
7:12OPRAH WINFREY: But what if the sentencing was that I had
7:14would have to go to jail for something
7:17that I knew I didn't do?
7:19And I thought about--
7:20for the first time in a real way--
7:22all the people who were in jail for things they didn't do,
7:25and how horrible that must be--
7:28I mean, just how it just would eat you up inside
7:31to know that justice was not served,
7:33and now you're behind bars for it.
7:35So I want you to take us back, actually, to the day,
7:40you were mowing your mother's lawn,
7:43and you're out there cutting the grass for your mom
7:45because you were living at home with your mom.
7:47ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
7:47OPRAH WINFREY: You were 29 years old at the time.
7:49ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
7:50OPRAH WINFREY: And would you say you're a mama's boy?
7:52Because you sure did love your mama.
7:55ANTHONY RAY HINTON: I am, and I still love her.
7:57And although she's not here, she will always be in here.
8:00OPRAH WINFREY: Yeah, in your heart.
8:01ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Oh, yes, there's not a day that goes by,
8:04not a night that I don't take her photo
8:06and kiss her and say, goodnight, mom.
8:10One would have to understand where I come from.
8:13My father didn't abandon us; he lost his mind.
8:17And so my mom had to be my father and mother.
8:19OPRAH WINFREY: So your father became-- was mentally ill?
8:21ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes, ma'am.
8:22And so I cannot sit here and look you in the eye
8:25and tell you that I missed anything
8:28other than having a father.
8:29My mother was tougher than any man could ever be.
8:33And so I was somewhat afraid of her.
8:35And my mother was the type, if she said,
8:37I'm going to the store, and I mean for you to count
8:40your fingers until I get back.
8:42You better be counting when she pulls back up.
8:44OPRAH WINFREY: [LAUGHS]
8:45ANTHONY RAY HINTON: And so but it was a hot day in July.
8:50And I went inside to get some lemonade.
8:52And my mom asked me, was I going to revive?
8:55And I said, yes, ma'am.
8:57And so I got this lemonade, went on back outside, and drunk it.
9:00Brought the glass back, and my mother was there again,
9:03and she said, what time revival start?
9:06And I said, 7:00 o'clock, Mama.
9:08And she said, well, you got time to go out and cut that grass.
9:12And I tried to give her that baby look,
9:14but it wasn't working today for some reason.
9:16And I said, Mama, I promise you, tomorrow, I'll cut that grass.
9:19And my mom looked at me, and she said,
9:22I'm trying my best to see how get
9:26you'll cut the grass tomorrow out of me telling
9:29you to go cut the grass.
9:30And she looked at me, boy, you better get
9:32out there and cut that grass.
9:33And out the door I go.
9:35And about 20 to 25 minutes into cutting the grass,
9:38I happened to look up, and there stood two white gentlemen
9:41that I didn't know.
9:43I cut the lawn mower off, and I said, can I help you?
9:46And one of them replied, I'm looking for Anthony Ray Hinton.
9:50I said, that would be me.
9:51Again, how can I help you?
9:52Then they identified himself as two detectives.
9:55And I said, OK, how can I help you?
9:57They said, well, we have a warrant for your arrest.
10:00And I said, for what?
10:01And they said, we'll tell you that later, but right now,
10:03we want you to put your hands behind your back.
10:06I complied, put my hands behind my back.
10:08They put the handcuffs on me, proceeded
10:11to put me in the squad car.
10:12But I said, at least allow me the opportunity to go in
10:16and tell my mother I'm being arrested for something.
10:18And one of the detectives said, no, we're not
10:20going to let you go back in.
10:21You can't go back in.
10:22And we argued for about two minutes,
10:24and finally, the other detective said, let him go in
10:26and tell this mother.
10:28And I goes in, and I just showed my mother the handcuffs.
10:31And like any good mother, she began to scream and holler,
10:34what are those handcuffs doing on my baby,
10:37and wanted to take-- said, take him
10:39out while I staying in there and talk to his mother.
10:42A few minutes later, he comes out,
10:44we go-- proceeded to go to jail.
10:47And I asked the detective at least 50 times,
10:51why am I being arrested?
10:53They would not respond, would not say a word.
10:57And that's the trouble to follow.
10:59They asked me.
11:00Again, I said, Detective, why am I being arrested?
11:02And he finally turned around-- the one that wasn't driving--
11:05and he said, you want to know why you're being arrested?
11:08I said, Yes.
11:09He said, we're charging you with first-degree robbery,
11:11first-degree kidnapping, first-degree attempted murder.
11:14I go, I ain't done none of that.
11:17And he kind of yelled at me.
11:19Let me tell you something right now!
11:21I don't care whether you did or didn't do it,
11:24but I'm gonna make sure you're found guilty of it.
11:26I said, for a crime I didn't commit?
11:28He said, you must have a hearing problem.
11:30Didn't I tell you I don't care whether you
11:32did or didn't do it?
11:35He said, but you remember this if you remember nothing else.
11:38I'm gonna make sure you're found guilty of it.
11:41And as we drove a little farther down the road,
11:44if that wasn't, I guess, insolent enough,
11:47he turned around.
11:48And he said, by the way, there's five things
11:51that are going to convict you.
11:52Would you like to know what they are?
11:55I said, Yes.
11:56He said, number one, you're Black.
11:58Number two, a white man is going to say you shot him
12:01whether you shot him or not.
12:02He said, believe me, I do not care.
12:08He said, number three, you're going
12:10to have a white prosecutor.
12:12Number four, you're going to have a white judge.
12:15And number five, more likely, you're going
12:18to have an all-white jury.
12:20He said, do you know what that spell?
12:22And he repeated the word-- conviction,
12:25conviction, conviction, conviction, conviction.
12:30And when we got to the police station,
12:32they put me in this holding cell for about 2 and 1/2 hours.
12:37And finally, he came in.
12:39And I said, Detective, if you don't mind,
12:41will you tell me what date and what
12:43time this crime took place?
12:46And he goes through his folder, and he's looking.
12:49He tells me the date and the time.
12:50And I said, phew!
12:52Thank you, Jesus!
12:54I said, I was at work at that particular date
12:56and that particular time.
12:58And I said, thank you, god!
13:00I said my supervisor happened to be white.
13:03Here's his phone number.
13:04Here's the address.
13:05And they takes off.
13:07They stay gone for about 4 and 1/2 hours.
13:09And he come back.
13:10OPRAH WINFREY: Because you thought,
13:11my supervisor is gonna clear all this up.
13:13ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
13:13OPRAH WINFREY: You got the wrong man.
13:14ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
13:15And he goes out there, and he comes back.
13:18And he said, well, I got good news, bad news.
13:22He said, the good news is we're no longer gonna charge you
13:25with first degree robbery, first degree kidnap,
13:27first degree attempted murder.
13:28Your alibi checks out.
13:30You was at work.
13:34He said, but now, the bad news--
13:36the bad news is we--
13:38I don't know who "we" is-- but we have decided that we're
13:41going to charge you with two counts
13:44of first-degree capital murder.
13:46I said, but I haven't killed anyone!
13:50He said, do you remember when I told you coming over here,
13:53I don't care whether you did it or didn't do it?
13:56He said, that whole fact for these new charges,
13:59I don't care whether you did it or didn't do it,
14:02but you remember this.
14:04I'm going to make sure you're found guilty of it.
14:07OPRAH WINFREY: This is the police officer?
14:08ANTHONY RAY HINTON: This is the police officer.
14:10OPRAH WINFREY: Wow.
14:12Were you terrified?
14:13Did you realize the magnitude of, the severity of what
14:18had just happened to you? Did you--
14:19ANTHONY RAY HINTON: I didn't because, you know--
14:21OPRAH WINFREY: Or are you still-- are
14:22you just still in disbelief?
14:24ANTHONY RAY HINTON: I'm in disbelief
14:25because, as I talked to the detective,
14:29the detective said something profound to me that--
14:33he looked at me, and he said, let me tell you something.
14:36He said, I really believe you didn't do it.
14:39He said, but since y'all is always
14:41taken up for one another--
14:43OPRAH WINFREY: "Y'all"
14:44ANTHONY RAY HINTON: "Y'all," he used the word.
14:46He said, take this for your homeboy.
14:49And with tears down my eyes, I said, detective,
14:54I don't have a homeboy in this world
14:57that I would take a rap like this for.
14:59OPRAH WINFREY: Mm.
15:01ANTHONY RAY HINTON: And I always been brought up
15:03to believe that, that the police wanted to get the right person.
15:07OPRAH WINFREY: Yeah.
15:08ANTHONY RAY HINTON: But this day, for some reason,
15:12they just wanted to book a Black person.
15:13OPRAH WINFREY: Because your mother raised you to.
15:16She's one of those strong Black women, Southern women.
15:19ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
15:20OPRAH WINFREY: Believes in authority.
15:22ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
15:23OPRAH WINFREY: Believed if you worked hard, showed up,
15:26things would turn out all right for you?
15:28Just tell the truth, tell the truth,
15:29and everything will turn out all right?
15:31ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes. OPRAH WINFREY: Go to the police.
15:33The police will help you. ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
15:34OPRAH WINFREY: It's what she believed, that the police
15:35were the people to help you? ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
15:37OPRAH WINFREY: And they kept you, right?
15:38ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
15:38OPRAH WINFREY: You never-- based on what I read in the book,
15:41you never went back home.
15:43ANTHONY RAY HINTON: No.
15:44OPRAH WINFREY: So they held you for a year
15:47and a half, 14 months.
15:48ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
15:49OPRAH WINFREY: 14 months before you even went to trial?
15:52ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
15:53OPRAH WINFREY: And the trial was just a fiasco,
15:55because they had already decided?
15:56ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes, from the day
15:58the judge stood up and read the charges and asked me,
16:03could I afford an attorney, and I told him no.
16:06And he appointed me an attorney.
16:08And the attorney come up and didn't even ask me my name.
16:11He just said, I didn't go to law school to do pro bono work.
16:16And I looked at the attorney, and I said,
16:18would it make a difference to you
16:20if I told you I was innocent?
16:22OPRAH WINFREY: This is the guy who was assigned to defend you?
16:24ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
16:25And he looked at me, and he said, you know,
16:28the problem with that statement is,
16:31all of y'all is always doing something and then
16:36saying you didn't do it.
16:37OPRAH WINFREY: There goes "y'all" again.
16:39ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yeah, hey.
16:40OPRAH WINFREY: Yeah.
16:40ANTHONY RAY HINTON: And I go, and I sit-in jail.
16:43And I go to trial.
16:46I need a ballistics expert.
16:49He goes, I only can get a civil engineer
16:52that was blinded in one eye.
16:54And I said to myself--
16:55OPRAH WINFREY: So let me interrupt you here.
16:57So they go back to your mother's house, and they get a gun.
17:00ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
17:01OPRAH WINFREY: That's a 38-caliber pistol.
17:02ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
17:03OPRAH WINFREY: That hasn't been fired in 25 years.
17:05ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
17:06OPRAH WINFREY: And literally dust off that gun.
17:08ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
17:09OPRAH WINFREY: And claim that that the bullets they found
17:12matched the bullets in your mother's gun?
17:15ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am.
17:17OPRAH WINFREY: And wasn't there somebody
17:18who had said that that gun hadn't been fired in--
17:20ANTHONY RAY HINTON: The detective
17:22told-- actually, my mother, my neighbor was there.
17:25And she said, he asked him, Mama,
17:27why don't you clean this gun?
17:29Ain't nothing on this gun but dust.
17:30And she told him, she said, this gun haven't
17:32been used in over 25 years.
17:35And they get it to the police station,
17:39cleaned it up, and lied.
17:41OPRAH WINFREY: And just lied. ANTHONY RAY HINTON: That's--
17:43I don't know no other word to tell you.
17:44They lied.
17:45OPRAH WINFREY: Yeah.
17:46ANTHONY RAY HINTON: They really-- they actually lied.
17:48And--
17:49OPRAH WINFREY: So I want people to actually get the book.
17:51I hope you do.
17:52It reads like a novel.
17:53But when you recognize that every word of it's true,
17:56it's so startling.
17:58I want you to take us to the courtroom
18:02after a year and a half has passed,
18:04and you're sitting in the courtroom.
18:06And after the ballistics expert--
18:08who turns out to be blind in one eye and incompetent
18:12that your lawyer had hired messes up so
18:15terribly on the witness stand--
18:17you knew then that you were going to be sentenced.
18:19ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Absolutely.
18:21The prosecution crucified him.
18:24And when he asked him, did he know
18:26how to turn on the machine?
18:28He said, no, I had to ask for help.
18:30He said, and once they helped you, what did you see?
18:35He said, I didn't see anything but my fingers.
18:38He said, you never seen the bullets?
18:40He said, no, I finally seen them later on.
18:42But I seen just one.
18:43OPRAH WINFREY: Where did they get this this this
18:45guy who sounded like a buffoon?
18:47ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Off the street, I believe.
18:48But then, they asked him, said, you nothing no more than a--
18:56You come up here, and then you go to the ballistic
18:59with a pair of pliers.
19:01OPRAH WINFREY: Oh, so he was just a charlatan, right?
19:02ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes, he was just a charlatan.
19:03Yes, and you know, I never heard of it,
19:05but back in the Western days, they
19:07used to get up there and say whatever for $25 or $50.
19:10OPRAH WINFREY: So that's what your lawyer
19:12had found, somebody to do that? ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
19:14And he asked him, the DA asked him,
19:16sir, how much are you getting paid?
19:17He said, well, I might get $50.
19:19I may get $100.
19:20I don't know.
19:21I may not even get anything.
19:23I just come did the lawyer a favor.
19:26OPRAH WINFREY: Oh.
19:27ANTHONY RAY HINTON: And--
19:28then I swallowed. OPRAH WINFREY: You knew it.
19:29You knew.
19:29ANTHONY RAY HINTON: I said, they're
19:30going to find me guilty.
19:31Because my case revolved around nothing but ballistics.
19:34Either they match, or they don't match.
19:37No eyewitness, no fingerprint, no nothing.
19:40Just the State of Alabama was saying they matched.
19:42OPRAH WINFREY: So they have this fake guy who gets up that they
19:46paid whatever, the charlatan.
19:48ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
19:49OPRAH WINFREY: They even called him a charlatan.
19:50ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
19:50OPRAH WINFREY: They called him a charlatan.
19:52ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes. Yeah.
19:52OPRAH WINFREY: The prosecution called him a charlatan.
19:54ANTHONY RAY HINTON: And what gets
19:56me is how did the judge, my lawyer, the prosecutor
20:03was standing there, that this man was
20:06one of the best there is.
20:10The judge qualified him as Dean because he get magazines
20:14and he knows more than the average human being.
20:17OPRAH WINFREY: Well, I have to say,
20:19you know Bryan Stevenson, who wrote "Just Mercy,"
20:22writes about your story.
20:23It's one of the first stories in his book.
20:25And Bryan Stevenson, who's dedicated his life to trying
20:28to bring justice to people who have been unfairly
20:31convicted and left to die, is how I actually
20:35came to hear your story.
20:36I was visiting, doing a story on the Lynching Museum down there.
20:40And I saw your book on his desk.
20:43ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Oh my god.
20:44OPRAH WINFREY: Saw your book on his desk.
20:46So can you take us to the day you heard that the jury comes
20:52back in, and they say, guilty?
20:54Can you take us to that moment?
20:56ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Well, when they said, guilty, I really
20:59lost sight for a few seconds.
21:02My niece was behind me, and I turned
21:05back to say something to her, and I
21:07didn't recognize who she was.
21:09And when they said, guilty, I was just totally in shock.
21:19I wanted to know, what did they find me guilty on?
21:22And to me, it wasn't nothing but a high-class lynching.
21:27And I often tell people, two white men came and arrested
21:32me three white men prosecuted me, a white judge sentenced me,
21:38and a white jury found me guilty--
21:41nothing but a lynching!
21:43And everything that I ever believed in--
21:50OPRAH WINFREY: Take your time.
21:57ANTHONY RAY HINTON: --everything that I believed in and was
22:00taught as a child left me.
22:04I just somehow wanted to protect my mom.
22:09I didn't quite know whether she understood
22:13that I had been found guilty of capital murder
22:17and what that meant.
22:20Because in Alabama, you can be found guilty and they have what
22:23they call a sentencing date later, about a week
22:26or two weeks later.
22:27And I didn't know if she fully understand
22:31that, more than like this prosecutor
22:34was seeking the death penalty.
22:36And I kept saying, I need somehow to protect my mother.
22:42I kept asking Lester to somehow shield her from it.
22:45OPRAH WINFREY: Lester, your best friend,
22:46who we'll talk about later. ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
22:48OPRAH WINFREY: I think I have the best friend in the world.
22:50ANTHONY RAY HINTON: No!
22:51OPRAH WINFREY: Until I read about your best friend.
22:53I have to say, there is something you said around page
22:5765, but how could I be this--
22:59I wondered, who would I be when this was all over?
23:02Everything good was being taken away
23:04one small chunk at a time--
23:05belief, family, truth, faith, justice.
23:10I wondered who I would be when this was all over.
23:12How could I be the same person?
23:14Would there be anything left after this trial?
23:18And what if they actually found me guilty, what then?
23:21Nobody believed me, and some days, it
23:23felt like the whole world, except for Lester and my mom,
23:26was conspiring against me.
23:28ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
23:29You know, I had taken a polygraph test and passed.
23:32And--
23:33OPRAH WINFREY: And the polygraph test was not admitted?
23:35ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Not admissible.
23:36And I'm saying--
23:37OPRAH WINFREY: And then, the man who gave the polygraph test
23:39said, this guy is innocent? ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
23:41OPRAH WINFREY: This guy--
23:42ANTHONY RAY HINTON: FBI, retired FBI agent,
23:44I'll never forget, the Lieutenant asked him,
23:46how did he do?
23:48He said, if I could go by this polygraph test,
23:50I would take him out of this jail tonight.
23:53And as he said, he just don't act like a killer.
23:58And so he said, I've been here for 28 years.
24:00So he said, he minds his own business and everything.
24:02So after trying to prove my innocence.
24:06I begged for truth serum.
24:07I begged for hypnosis.
24:08I begged for anything that they was willing to give
24:11me to prove my innocence.
24:13And when I passed the polygraph test,
24:15and the prosecution reneged on his word
24:18saying we could use it if, if I passed and if I failed it,
24:21he could use it, it just sucked every ounce of energy,
24:26every ounce of belief, everything out of me.
24:30If you've been taught that justice will prevail
24:34and the truth will come to light,
24:35I didn't see being convicted--
24:38I thought it meant then, in the courtroom.
24:41I didn't know that I was going to spend 30 years later
24:44before the truth come out.
24:46I didn't have--
24:47OPRAH WINFREY: Unbelievable.
24:49It's unfathomable.
24:50And so there were some dark nights of the soul.
24:53You went obediently onto Death Row.
24:55ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
24:56OPRAH WINFREY: And you stopped speaking, literally.
24:59ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes, three years.
25:01OPRAH WINFREY: You did not speak?
25:02ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Did not speak.
25:03Every time an officer would say, what is your name?
25:06What is your Social Security number?
25:08What is this?
25:09I just wrote it down and gave it to him.
25:11And for three years, they thought I couldn't talk.
25:14It was as though God had taken my vocal cords
25:17and I couldn't talk.
25:19I just went, from when I tell you,
25:20I didn't even realize that I could have so much
25:24anger inside of me because of what had been taken from me.
25:30OPRAH WINFREY: Yeah.
25:31ANTHONY RAY HINTON: And I went in this hellhole,
25:35and I just knew.
25:36OPRAH WINFREY: You had dreams for many nights
25:38killing MacGregor.
25:39ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes, ma'am.
25:41Yes, ma'am.
25:42OPRAH WINFREY: Was he the prosecutor?
25:43ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes, ma'am. OPRAH WINFREY: Or the judge?
25:43He was the judge? He was the prosecutor?
25:45ANTHONY RAY HINTON: The prosecutor, yeah.
25:46And he was so racist, he wrote a book,
25:49and he had the idea that Hitler was right.
25:53He think the world should be covered in white.
25:56And all I wanted to do--
25:59I didn't want to come back and escape to be on the run.
26:02I wanted to choke the life out of him.
26:05And I wanted my face to be the last face that he saw.
26:08And--
26:09OPRAH WINFREY: So you were consumed with that rage
26:11and anger for a long time?
26:12ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes, ma'am.
26:13And once I seen that I couldn't escape,
26:19four years later, I heard a grown man
26:22laugh for the first time.
26:23And that's who I've always been.
26:26I think laughter is good for the soul.
26:28And when I heard that laughter, it broke the ice.
26:31OPRAH WINFREY: But it wasn't the laughing at first.
26:34So three years where literally, you go outside,
26:38and I've been on Death Row.
26:40And I've seen, I mean, it's when you think 5 by 7 cell,
26:47and even when you go outside, you're going outside in a cage?
26:52ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
26:53OPRAH WINFREY: Yeah.
26:54ANTHONY RAY HINTON: And I could lay in my bed
26:57and touch the four walls--
26:59which, my arm is long, but 5 by 7 is not big at all.
27:03OPRAH WINFREY: Yeah.
27:04ANTHONY RAY HINTON: And when you've got the bed mounted
27:07to the wall and the toilet mounted to the wall,
27:09you have no room to do anything.
27:12And that's what I lived in for 30 years.
27:15And it's pure solitary confinement.
27:18OPRAH WINFREY: You can't even see the other guys on the Row?
27:20ANTHONY RAY HINTON: No.
27:20OPRAH WINFREY: So you don't have other human touching you?
27:22ANTHONY RAY HINTON: No, no.
27:23OPRAH WINFREY: Yeah, so for three years,
27:24you went into that.
27:25What did you tell yourself?
27:27And you know what, Mr. Hinton?
27:28I was trying to figure out, what does time become?
27:33Are you counting the days?
27:35Is there calendar time in your head?
27:39Do Tuesdays, or Wednesdays, and Thursdays, and Fridays matter?
27:42If it's May or if it's December, does it matter?
27:44ANTHONY RAY HINTON: No, time is nothing like it once were.
27:48In fact, time don't even exist because you're in a place
27:53where, when they time is at an end,
27:59they're gonna come get you. OPRAH WINFREY: Yeah.
28:01ANTHONY RAY HINTON: And they're gonna
28:01scrap you down in the chair, and they're gonna--
28:03OPRAH WINFREY: And as it turns out,
28:05your cell was just 30 feet from the death chamber.
28:10ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
28:11OPRAH WINFREY: Where men would have to take
28:14the walk down your hallway.
28:15ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
28:16OPRAH WINFREY: With, what, eight other cells.
28:19ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Eight.
28:19OPRAH WINFREY: Eight other cells.
28:20ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
28:21OPRAH WINFREY: Top and bottom, and walk to the death chamber.
28:24And when they were killed, you could
28:26smell their flesh burning.
28:27ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes, oh, yes.
28:28OPRAH WINFREY: And in your time there, you witnessed--
28:30ANTHONY RAY HINTON: 54.
28:31OPRAH WINFREY: 54?
28:32ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Men, and one woman.
28:34OPRAH WINFREY: And one woman.
28:35ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Being executed.
28:36OPRAH WINFREY: Executed.
28:37ANTHONY RAY HINTON: And of all the 54, I asked the guard,
28:42I said, officer, is there anything
28:44you can give me so I won't have to smell their fresh burning?
28:49OPRAH WINFREY: Flesh burning.
28:51ANTHONY RAY HINTON: And that officer looked at me.
28:54And he said, no, there's nothing I can give you.
28:56And if there's a consolation to it, he said ,
29:00you'll get used to it.
29:03And one day, somebody will smell your flesh burning.
29:08And it was at that moment--
29:11that very moment-- that I escaped up here.
29:16I had to.
29:17And I often tell people, I can understand why about
29:2311 men took their own life.
29:26If you can't escape up here--
29:28OPRAH WINFREY: In your head.
29:29ANTHONY RAY HINTON: It's over.
29:31OPRAH WINFREY: You can't survive.
29:31ANTHONY RAY HINTON: No.
29:32OPRAH WINFREY: Yeah, if you just dealing with that every day.
29:34ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
29:35OPRAH WINFREY: The reality of being in this 5 by 7 cell.
29:38ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
29:39OPRAH WINFREY: So what broke it for you?
29:41ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Oh.
29:41OPRAH WINFREY: It was someone crying in the night, at first.
29:43Was it not?
29:43ANTHONY RAY HINTON: It was a man that had lost his mother.
29:45OPRAH WINFREY: Yeah. ANTHONY RAY HINTON: And--
29:47OPRAH WINFREY: He was wailing, wailing, wailing, wailing.
29:50ANTHONY RAY HINTON: And this is was man
29:51that I had lived by for three years
29:53and never asked him his name, where he was from, or anything.
29:57I wasn't there, really, to get to know anybody.
30:00I wasn't there to make friends.
30:03All I knew is I was there for something I didn't do.
30:05And when I heard this man crying, at an early age,
30:11my mom had taught me compassion.
30:14She said, no matter what one does in life,
30:17they still deserve compassion.
30:19And it was that compassion that I hollered through this brick
30:23wall, and I got up to the front of the door,
30:26and I yelled out with my voice.
30:29And I said, hey, is something wrong over there?
30:31Took him a while to reply.
30:33And he finally said, I just got word my mother passed.
30:37And I told him that I was sorry to hear that.
30:40Other men was listening.
30:42They hollered, hey, I'm sorry, as well.
30:44And I told him a corny joke.
30:46And we kind of laughed just a little bit to try to break it.
30:51And I laid back down.
30:52And then, next morning, I realized my voice was back
30:55as well as my sense of humor, and I ain't looked back since.
30:58OPRAH WINFREY: Mm.
31:00ANTHONY RAY HINTON: I used this up here
31:01to go wherever I wanted to go and made as many people
31:04as I could laugh.
31:05OPRAH WINFREY: And you say--
31:07in "The Sun Does Shine," you say,
31:10I wondered why it is that the cries of another human being,
31:14whether it's a baby, or a woman in grief, or a man in pain,
31:17can touch us in ways we don't expect.
31:20I wasn't expecting to have my heart break that night.
31:22I wasn't expecting to end three years of silence.
31:25It was a revelation to realize that I wasn't
31:28the only man on Death Row.
31:29ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
31:30OPRAH WINFREY: I was born with the same gift from God
31:33we are all born with--
31:34the impulse to reach out and lessen the suffering
31:37of another human being. ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Mm-hmm.
31:38OPRAH WINFREY: It was a gift, and we each
31:40had a choice whether to use this gift or not.
31:44What I knew, when you're hanging at the end of your rope,
31:47does it really matter what color the hand
31:49is that reaches up to help you?
31:51What I knew was that he loved his mother
31:53just like I love my mother. ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
31:54OPRAH WINFREY: And I could understand his pain.
31:56ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Absolutely, and the fact
31:58that mine was still alive made me appreciate her more
32:03and made me understand his loss even more.
32:05OPRAH WINFREY: And so somebody laughed.
32:07You told a joke. ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
32:08OPRAH WINFREY: Somebody laughed.
32:09You heard that laughter, and something about that laughter--
32:12ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Just clicked.
32:12OPRAH WINFREY: Cracked you open, yeah.
32:14ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes I've always
32:15been one that I love humor.
32:18I think that, as I said before, laughter is good for the soul.
32:23And I just try to make humor out of everything.
32:25OPRAH WINFREY: Yeah.
32:26ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Even the worst of the worst,
32:28I try to find some humor in it.
32:30OPRAH WINFREY: So you had this--
32:32first of all, I think one of the things that saved
32:34you was your vivid imagination.
32:36ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
32:37OPRAH WINFREY: Because when that officer said that to you,
32:40about one day, they will be smelling your own flesh,
32:44you learned, then, to go away in your own imagination.
32:47And you went to lots of places.
32:50To see the Queen of England. ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
32:51OPRAH WINFREY: In your head.
32:52ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
32:53And I also tell people, please, don't ask me
32:55why a 29-year-old Black male want to go see Queen Elizabeth,
32:59but I did.
33:00OPRAH WINFREY: [LAUGHS]
33:02ANTHONY RAY HINTON: But at the end of the day,
33:06I realized something-- she was in jail just as I was.
33:10OPRAH WINFREY: Yeah.
33:11ANTHONY RAY HINTON: She was in a 758-room--
33:15OPRAH WINFREY: Jail. ANTHONY RAY HINTON: --jail.
33:17OPRAH WINFREY: And you were in a 5 by 7.
33:19ANTHONY RAY HINTON: And I was in a 5 by 7.
33:21So we had something in common, and I just wanted to escape
33:24and see how she was doing.
33:26OPRAH WINFREY: That is so--
33:28OK, I won't say "crazy," but that sounds crazy to me.
33:31ANTHONY RAY HINTON: [LAUGHS] Well, here's the thing.
33:34When people ask me, I said, think about it.
33:37I've had the privilege to walk down England
33:40and enjoy the sights, the buildings,
33:42everything England have to offer.
33:45She can't enjoy it the way I enjoy it.
33:47OPRAH WINFREY: Since you've been out?
33:48ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes.
33:49OPRAH WINFREY: You've been there.
33:49ANTHONY RAY HINTON: I can go in stores.
33:51I can go in stores and shop.
33:53They have to shut the stores down.
33:55OPRAH WINFREY: But you went in your Imagination.
33:57ANTHONY RAY HINTON: In my imagination, I went to see her,
33:59because she was in prison just as I was in prison.
34:03And I wanted to give her some type of consolation
34:06that it's OK, you're OK.
34:10You're going to be OK.
34:11And once I visited her, and I realized that I could travel
34:15in my mind, and there was nothing the warden or anyone
34:19in the State of Alabama could do about it,
34:21I just kept traveling.
34:22OPRAH WINFREY: Yes.
34:23ANTHONY RAY HINTON: And I traveled, and I ended up,
34:25you know, after reading the book,
34:26I married Halle Berry in my mind for 15 years.
34:29And when I--
34:30OPRAH WINFREY: You were married to Halle Berry?
34:32ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yes, for 15 long, beautiful years.
34:34OPRAH WINFREY: [LAUGHS]
34:36ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Halle Berry was
34:37one of the old, special wives.
34:39But if there's a scene that's perfect,
34:42she didn't say nothing but yes, dear, and OK, dear.
34:44And I said, well, I love the fact that she
34:47didn't spend any of the money.
34:48OPRAH WINFREY: [LAUGHS]
34:50ANTHONY RAY HINTON: And so what I did was,
34:52I didn't never use my mind for garbage.
34:56In the 15 years that I was married to Halle Berry,
34:59not one time did I think of her as sexual in any way.
35:02I used her to cope through some lonely days.
35:06OPRAH WINFREY: Oh.
35:07ANTHONY RAY HINTON: And I ended just
35:07sitting there talking to her.
35:09And I had seen a few of her movies,
35:11and, and I knew when she was married to David
35:14Justin for the Yankees.
35:16And the Yankees have always been my favorite team.
35:18And I just sit there, and she had
35:20been through some rough times.
35:22And when I married her, 15 years was the best 15 years
35:26of her life, as well as mine.
35:28And so I just used my mind, kept using my mind.
35:31OPRAH WINFREY: And then you let her go for Sandra Bullock.
35:33ANTHONY RAY HINTON: I did, when I seen--
35:35when I seen Sandra Bullock driving this bus,
35:38I'm thinking in my mind--
35:40OPRAH WINFREY: That was on "Speed," right?
35:41ANTHONY RAY HINTON: On "Speed," yes.
35:43If this woman can drive a bus like this,
35:45imagine what she could do with a real getaway car!
35:47OPRAH WINFREY: Yeah!
35:48ANTHONY RAY HINTON: And I'm not thinking,
35:49this is where I'm going to be the rest of my life.
35:52Now, I'm back, and I'm thinking about getting out of here.
35:55And I'm thinking, if I have to get out of here,
35:57somehow escape, Sandra Bullock could drive the getaway car.
36:01OPRAH WINFREY: These are the games you play with yourself?
36:03ANTHONY RAY HINTON: I'm playing--
36:03OPRAH WINFREY: --in your mind to get through the days.
36:06ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Oh, yes.
36:06OPRAH WINFREY: To get through the days.
36:07Because, obviously, if you saw her in "Speed,"
36:09there's TV on Death Row.
36:10ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Well, now there was,
36:12but they had showed us the movie when
36:14I first seen her in "Speed."
36:15OPRAH WINFREY: Yeah.
36:16ANTHONY RAY HINTON: And then, after that, they started
36:18allowing us to purchase a TV.
36:20OPRAH WINFREY: Uh-huh. ANTHONY RAY HINTON: And--
36:22OPRAH WINFREY: But in the first years, did you have a TV?
36:24ANTHONY RAY HINTON: No. OPRAH WINFREY: Did you have--
36:25ANTHONY RAY HINTON: No. OPRAH WINFREY: Nothing.
36:25ANTHONY RAY HINTON: No.
36:26OPRAH WINFREY: You're just in a room all day long with nothing?
36:28ANTHONY RAY HINTON: With nothing but a Bible.
36:30OPRAH WINFREY: A Bible.
36:31ANTHONY RAY HINTON: And when I got there, I took that Bible
36:33and throw it up on the bed.
36:34OPRAH WINFREY: Yeah, you didn't touch
36:35the Bible for three years?
36:36ANTHONY RAY HINTON: Yeah.
36:37OPRAH WINFREY: Our conversation will
36:39continue in the next episode.
36:40You can listen by downloading part 2.
36:42[THEME MUSIC]
36:44I'm Oprah Winfrey, and you've been listening to "Super Soul
36:47Conversations," the podcast.
36:49You can follow "Super Soul" on Instagram,
36:52Twitter, and Facebook.
36:53If you haven't yet, go to Apple Podcasts and subscribe, rate,
36:58and review this podcast.
37:00Join me next week for another "Super Soul Conversation."
37:03Thank you for listening.

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