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Anthony Graves on Overcoming a Wrongful Conviction — Transcript

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0:04welcome to the State Bar of Texas
0:06podcasts your monthly source for
0:09conversations and curated content to
0:12improve your law practice with your host
0:14rocky dear hi and thank you for being
0:21here welcome to the State Bar of Texas
0:22podcast this is your host rocky deer if
0:25you're just tuning in we have an amazing
0:28episode for you today it's a very
0:31compelling story my guest today is
0:32Anthony graves now Anthony spent 18 and
0:36a half years wrongfully convicted behind
0:39bars
0:40he has emerged from that entire story as
0:43the published author of a book called
0:45infinite hope and Anthony's gonna tell
0:48us not only about his story and what
0:50transpired starting in 1992 up until his
0:53release in 2010 he's also going to tell
0:55us about the process of writing infinite
0:57hope it's an amazing story and as
1:00lawyers there's a lot we can learn from
1:02this so without any further ado let's
1:03get started Anthony are you there yes
1:06how are you I'm doing great it's an
1:08honor to have you on our show thank you
1:10for being here thank you for inviting me
1:12now Anthony I don't remember what I was
1:15doing on August 18 1992 I think at that
1:19time I was probably in the summer after
1:22my senior year of high school and I was
1:23waiting to go off to college that for
1:26you however was a very very big day yeah
1:29it's the day that I will no forget you
1:32know I had to think about that day for
1:35six thousand six hundred forty days of
1:38my life I was wrongfully convicted and
1:40incarcerated about what was I doing that
1:43night and why why have I ended up on
1:47death row behind I mean I was at home
1:49with my family and now I'm sitting on
1:52death row so I had to think about that
1:54night and relive that night over and
1:56over and over again because I just could
1:58not understand how with my actions that
2:02night being home with my family in the
2:07me up on death row for crime on you
2:09absolutely nothing about it just blows
2:11our mind as I pretend to think about
2:13today so let's go back to that night the
2:16night of August 18th 1992 when your life
2:19changed forever the ensuing 18 years you
2:22were incarcerated and then later
2:24exonerated 18 years of your life I mean
2:28that's basically if your incarceration
2:30were a person it would have grown to the
2:32legal age of majority by that point
2:35myths that is an entire lifetime for
2:37some people that's a very very long time
2:39so August 18 1992 there was a horrific
2:43horrific murder an arson that took place
2:47can you tell us a little bit about the
2:49crime for which you were eventually
2:51convicted and then exonerated what
2:54exactly happened yes that was the crime
2:56that took place in a small town some of
2:59your taxes an entire family had been
3:01murdered I was six people total
3:03that's four children under the age of 10
3:06that was a 16 year old daughter and a 45
3:10year old grandma they were shot stabbed
3:13Lundy to death I got the legal support
3:15all over their body and the house was
3:17burnt down and so imagine a crime of
3:21that magnitude in such a small County I
3:23was a lot of outrage and [ __ ] and so as
3:27a matter of fact the mayor of a County
3:29at the time came out and said that
3:32whoever had done the crime didn't even
3:34deserve a trial they should be caught
3:35and hanged and that saw the way they
3:37proceeded with the case because a week
3:39later they had a funeral and a young man
3:42showed up with bandages all over his
3:44body
3:44and the instant became a suspect this
3:47young man was the father of one of the
3:48children that had been murdered in the
3:50fire and so when the funeral is over in
3:54a Texas Ranger file at home that's they
3:57could talk to him took him to the DPS
3:59office to interrogate him over 40 no
4:01still serve everybody knows everything
4:03that he said but at the end they asked
4:05him to call her name was someone who
4:06could have done it with him they let him
4:08go he accorded to his story thought he
4:12had seen me and a jeep with some other
4:14guys on his way to the DPS office and
4:16when they asked him to call a name being
4:19that he thought he had just seen me
4:20previous he called my name that's gonna
4:23give us stories he gave several
4:24different stories and within
4:27that was a knock on my door I was taken
4:29to the police station charged with
4:31capital murder sat in jail for two and a
4:33half years awaiting trial and I was
4:35wrongfully convicted and sentenced to
4:37death just all my life now let's talk
4:40for a second about the man with the
4:42bandages who had named you to the Texas
4:44Rangers his name was Robert Carter right
4:47okay did you know Robert Carter during
4:51this time how were you guys acquainted
4:53I mean tell us about your relationship
4:54with him yeah it's so crazy because this
4:57young man has married a cousin of mine
5:00that I grew up with and we grew up close
5:02but you know just like with any family
5:04tree when you grow up you spread out and
5:06you know but that was still my cousin so
5:08I imagine just doing their time that
5:11they talked about their family tree so
5:13he knew my name through my clothes but
5:16we never had a personal relationship as
5:18I sit and talk to you now I talked to
5:22you more than I had a conversation with
5:23him
5:24it's just strange that he called my name
5:27with we had no connections other than my
5:30cousin Larry Manson and I end up on that
5:33girl he couldn't even tell you my
5:35nickname on the streets he couldn't tell
5:37you anything about me and yet they made
5:39him out to be my best friend and then
5:42that caused me to lose my freedom now
5:44you mentioned earlier that you were you
5:47sat in jail for about two years so you
5:49were convicted in 1994 and then
5:52sentenced to death row when when you
5:56were awaiting trial when the
5:57investigation was taking place there was
5:58a there was a district attorney named
6:00Charles uh beste and the lead Texas
6:03Ranger on the case ray Coffman well when
6:06you talk to them when they questioned
6:07you about this particular case or your
6:09involvement in it I'm assuming you told
6:12him you were innocent you were able to
6:13give him names of people that that could
6:16vouch for your whereabouts what happened
6:19with all that why would they pinpoint
6:20you listen I just described Who I am at
6:24that time I'm a young black man was not
6:27many resources okay another young like
6:30man just lied on me and said that I was
6:32involved in a crime that drives the
6:34highest emotion it's a recipe for
6:37success for a district attorney who
6:39wants to just seek a conviction
6:41all you have to do is get someone in
6:43there with no resources that looks like
6:45me thinking in the case on here that's
6:48exactly what happened with me because
6:50there was no reason for them to pursue
6:54me the way they did when they had all
6:56the evidence that suggested that I was
6:58indeed innocent as a matter of fact we
7:00found our ten years later that mr.
7:03Carter who initially lied on me the same
7:06night told him that he lied and that I
7:08was innocent
7:09they never divulge that information to
7:11us they just went on and pursued the
7:13case and set me in jail like two and a
7:15half years trying to build a case on me
7:17out of thin air so it was just bad
7:20judgment I think it was very intentional
7:23because they didn't think anyone would
7:25question their integrity around such a
7:27high-profile case that's a big problem
7:30for our system there are not many checks
7:32and balances when it comes to district
7:34attorneys and our law enforcement and at
7:36least our citizens and our people one
7:38roll out here I was runnable to
7:40assistant out and it's decided that they
7:42wanted to convict me of crime I didn't
7:44commit
7:44now eventually when you went to trial in
7:471994 can you tell us a little bit about
7:50the type of case that the prosecution
7:52put on and the type of defense that you
7:55put up obviously there was a jury and
7:57there was it there was a jury verdict
7:59and I think most people tend to think
8:01that when a case goes to jury at that
8:03point whatever the jury decides must be
8:06the correct decision in your case that
8:08turned out not to be the case so can you
8:09walk us through what happened at the
8:11trial stage let me let me take you to
8:14the initial
8:15lorelei proceedings I think is very
8:17important this is when the jury is being
8:20questioned about the case this is when
8:22the jury is being questioned we'll see
8:24if they can qualify to say I can do a
8:26fair and impartial verdict okay sure
8:28well that's how it's supposed to be I
8:30but fortunately that's not always the
8:33case anyway so doing boy I got you know
8:37my attorneys in the state can question
8:40each potential juror come up there you
8:43guys know and they examine the Georgia
8:45state to qualify my attorney would ask
8:49each potential jury one course in at
8:53least six to seven
8:54tenem I remember would have the same
8:58response and that question was how do
9:01you feel about my client mr. gray
9:03sitting here today and a lot of response
9:06was he must have done something
9:08otherwise you wouldn't have of you they
9:11became the jury of my peers that's
9:14something really fundamentally wrong
9:16with that that someone can sit up that
9:18and prejudge you before the trial even
9:21starts and we still qualified to sit on
9:24the jury because we have this
9:26rehabilitation of the jury by asking
9:29them if he can follow the law that is so
9:34it's so wrong on so many levels
9:36because this men and these women
9:39initially said I had to have done
9:41something and yet they will qualify for
9:44sit on my jury that was a recipe for
9:47disaster from day one okay so so Anthony
9:51if I could if I could just and I don't
9:52mean to cut you off but you raised an
9:54interesting question that I think a lot
9:56of specifically lawyers in Texas would
9:58be interested to maybe dive a little bit
10:00more deeply into so it sounds like
10:03you're saying in some parts of the
10:05country they got four deer and here in
10:06Texas we call it voir dire that the voir
10:08dire process is flawed
10:11based on your experience how do you
10:13think we should change it since you went
10:15through this and you've had time to
10:16reflect on it what should have been done
10:17differently in your view what I think
10:21what should definitely change it's
10:23called the shuffle another judge I don't
10:25think that you should be allowed to
10:27examine certain people and then when
10:29those that come up front that don't look
10:31like you you could get a chance to shut
10:33Reese up with the jury and get the ones
10:35that look like you to come back up to
10:36the front I think that's just bad it's
10:39bad on so many levels I think it also
10:40goes up against the back promotion I
10:42also feel like in when it comes to the
10:45jury
10:46once we select the journey a journey has
10:49to be better informed with their role
10:51what role they do play in this thing
10:53cost them but more inform they can be
10:56the less likely go to get caught up in
10:58the emotions and render a verdict based
11:00on emotions it happens too many times
11:02because jurors are not they're the most
11:05important people in the room in the
11:07courtroom
11:08most other poll data walks off the
11:11streets as late they don't know any love
11:13and yet i watch the state as well as the
11:16fist try to keep things from try to
11:19manipulate the facts and all they have
11:21to go on is everything that you're
11:23throwing out at them and their so they
11:24do the incomplete picture and they come
11:25back and they really invert it that is
11:28wrong and I think that is that that's in
11:30part because we have failed to inform
11:32our jury on what they role really is
11:35about it how do you need to stick to the
11:36facts
11:37and how to assess the facts we don't
11:39educate our jury we just send them in
11:42and say make the best decision and then
11:44we have a court after that they want to
11:46uphold their decision knowing they don't
11:48know much about the law and how they
11:50were manipulated is to decide what the
11:52factual so I think that with the jury we
11:55break down our system when our jury
11:57system uninformed on a very important
12:00case that can cause a man in his life
12:01that system it doesn't work we need to
12:05have better informed jurors even if we
12:07have to go to jurors that have criminal
12:09justice backgrounds but we can't not
12:12continue to let people walk off the
12:14street and make these important
12:16decisions about the fate of a man or
12:17woman without being fluent in full it's
12:20a recipe that is that so Anthony you've
12:22raised two topics here that I wanted to
12:24explore for a second with you the first
12:26is how the jury is informed and knowing
12:30their role in other words I guess how
12:32the court should instruct them on the
12:34role that they play in the process
12:36the second issue you raised was about
12:38how informed the jury is about the
12:41background facts and according to what
12:44she just said yet both the prosecution
12:46and the defense trying to hide things
12:48from the jury so let's start with the
12:50first topic you know how would you have
12:54instructed the jury if you could go back
12:57and do it all over again
12:58how should judges and lawyers make sure
13:00that jurors are instructed on their role
13:01oh why is he picking here okay you don't
13:06go into trial in this thing once you
13:08keep dessert this one I think the state
13:10and the defense you come again and they
13:13get to a stain the room to the truth but
13:16there was really long the fact and I
13:19think on both sides this should be very
13:22honest with the jury about how to follow
13:25the facts educate the jury so that
13:28winner trial on the jury is informed
13:31they know how to follow a case
13:33it's not about prosecutor did not
13:35they're crying and then they all sudden
13:37remember vertically emotion we can't do
13:40that if we're talking about real reform
13:43we have to better inform the jury and I
13:46think that thing comes with and you sit
13:48him up and our two hours before trial
13:51even begins our three hours a half a day
13:53and educate them on their role what's
13:56the facts are
13:57that's when both sides not just one in a
14:00referee needs to be the dude this is
14:03educate these people in this case and
14:06how the father educational research and
14:08the best conclusion we don't do that
14:10what do you wish that the judge had told
14:13your jurors about their role was there
14:16something specific a sentence or a
14:18phrase that should have been used in
14:20your view to maybe have mitigated what
14:23happened in your case well I don't have
14:26one sentence that could really capture
14:31what I'm trying to explain it but this
14:33what I'm saying is is that when you
14:37suppress them in it that's very relevant
14:39that can shed light on the case and a
14:43good grant pet and a jury don't know
14:47about that but let me just give up
14:49example so Mikey alibi with who was that
14:53as testified for me had winners on the
14:55grand jury two and a half years prior to
14:57testify on my behalf
14:58never wavered about my innocence never
15:01was told that she would ever be invited
15:04on anything two and a half years later
15:06the day she was going to testify
15:08the prosecutor jumps up until the judge
15:12just I need to put some on record
15:14outside the presence of the jury the
15:17judge excuse the jury the prosecutor
15:20goes on to say that my alibi witness now
15:22has become a catch them become basically
15:26a perfect and that should she testify
15:29it's highly likely he's gonna seek an
15:32indictment of capital murder again but
15:33now she's 22 years old with our time
15:36on the changeling she has no attending
15:38my training goes and tell her exactly
15:40what the prosecutor said and she jumps
15:42up all the stairs but runs out the
15:44courtroom crying okay so when the jury
15:47comes back in during closing arguments
15:50the prosecutor jumps up to say well
15:53where's his witnesses that fit that he
15:55said he was with that night why is she
15:57here to testify there Tara did not know
16:00that he just threatened her with capital
16:02murder she knew testify
16:04why the jury wasn't made aware of it now
16:07the alibi witness you're referring to is
16:09Yolanda Mathis am i right right and I
16:13think she was was she your girlfriend at
16:15the time when you okay so Yolanda could
16:20have vouched for your whereabouts and
16:22where you were on the night of August
16:23the 18th 1992 when this horrific crime
16:26took place and right when your trial was
16:29taking place when Yolanda was about to
16:30take the stand was that the first time
16:33she had been informed that she was a
16:35suspect in this case or that she might
16:36be potentially yeah I did yes okay yes
16:40okay wouldn't you like so for all the
16:45listeners out there that might be
16:46wondering about some of the background
16:48facts and where you can learn about the
16:49cast of characters there's actually two
16:51articles that came out in 2010 in Texas
16:54Monthly Magazine and this particular
16:56article was very very important to
16:58Anthony's case and it actually helped
17:01bring to light some of the in justices
17:03that were taking place for those of you
17:05that are interested these articles were
17:07written by Pamela Koloff and the first
17:09one was called innocence lost and the
17:13second one was called innocence found
17:15and it is all about Anthony's story goes
17:17in to the characters it tells you about
17:19Yolanda it tells you about Charles
17:21sebastio all of the different people and
17:24the roles that they played in leading up
17:26to this so if anybody does want to know
17:27more please pick up those articles and
17:30of course if you really want to get the
17:31scoop pick up Anthony's book infinite
17:33hope and Anthony we're gonna talk about
17:35that here in a second but what you were
17:37alluding to earlier you said that the
17:39jury came back they never heard from
17:42Yolanda Mathis and then in closing
17:44arguments the prosecutor got up and
17:46effectively asked where is this alibi
17:49witness
17:49that mr. graves keeps referring to so
17:53yeah you were going back to how the
17:55prosecution and the defense kept things
17:57from the jury what do you think the
18:00defense could have done in that instance
18:03was there something that the defense
18:05should have done or could have done to
18:06maybe better inform this jury in your
18:08view yeah I think that my defense
18:11attorney number one had never tried a
18:13captain case I was the very first
18:15captain case that he had tried now yeah
18:17it's dead on the case where they plead
18:19and when they cleared guilty but he's
18:21never tried a capital case so he made a
18:23couple of errors that to no fault of his
18:26own he was just inexperienced but I
18:29think definitely that one of the things
18:31that he should have done was that score
18:33a hearing on that which should have
18:35stopped the trial and asked for a
18:36hearing on this year because this man
18:38just stood up there and said that my
18:39witness for the first time was going to
18:43be charged with capital murder she
18:44testified during the middle of trial he
18:47should have asked for a continuance he
18:48should have actually hearing on that and
18:50we should have heard what the evidence
18:52were then let them feel like my witness
18:55would not be a suspect so that was just
18:59based on inexperience I mean I've never
19:01bashed my defense attorney because I
19:03watched him cry when they wrongfully
19:04convicted me he really believed in my
19:06innocence
19:06he was just image theorists and he was
19:09dealing with a prosecutor who was con
19:11and conniving and speaking the
19:12conviction but he definitely could have
19:15asked to stop the trial and that's what
19:18hearing on that filed a motion for a
19:20hearing on that to find out who in fact
19:22was this credible or not because the
19:26prosecutor had been playing so many
19:27games with us but he didn't do that I
19:29think the judge should have notified the
19:32jury should have been that should have
19:34been something in place for the judge
19:35who is the referee the neutral party
19:38should have said to the jurors
19:40once mr. semester's made that statement
19:42let's correct the record mission matters
19:45were sure to testify
19:46those from years four semesters we
19:48decided to charge her should she come so
19:50we want the jury to understand that but
19:52she did not out for whatever reason
19:54maybe you don't have that right but if
19:56the judge would have taken control
19:58seeing that hearing that knowing that
20:01mr. Sebastian is lying
20:03you know you
20:03manipulated truth the jailer should have
20:06had the right to say no stop we need to
20:09correct the rest he didn't do this he
20:11allowed this injustice to take place he
20:14set up there in his robe and allowed mr.
20:17Sylvester to play with the facts so
20:19loosely that it led to my room for
20:21conviction and at trial did robert
20:23carter ultimately testify against you
20:25even though even though I barely knew
20:28you and you guys really had no dealings
20:30on the night of August the 18th 1992 did
20:33he get up and ultimately testify against
20:35you he ultimately testified against me
20:37because what we didn't know is that they
20:41had brought mr. Carter back the night
20:43before trial they brought him for his
20:46testimony but his testimony mr. Carter
20:50was refusing to testify because he said
20:52mr. graves is innocent
20:55so they say they're gonna take a
20:56polygraph test of it they never asked
20:59any questions about mr. graves they're
21:01actually about his life and being they
21:03said well you know you fail the
21:04polygraph so you know there's no statute
21:07of limitation on capital murder growing
21:09up to your wife
21:10so that's when mr. Carter sigh I'll give
21:13y'all what y'all want
21:14we didn't know that mr. Carter was back
21:16there refusing to testify on the grounds
21:18that I was actually innocent we found
21:20this out 10 years later that was not
21:22disclosed to you or your attorneys that
21:25on the eve of his trial Robert Carter
21:28had effectively confessed to the
21:30prosecution that you had nothing to do
21:32with this case and that he was
21:33effectively wrongfully accusing you and
21:37come to find out that was about the
21:39umpteenth time he had confessed the
21:42night that he initially life throughout
21:44when it had him in jail and the night
21:47before and the morning that he was
21:50scheduled to testify during the trial he
21:52was refusing on the grounds that he said
21:55this man is innocent did you ever get a
21:58chance to talk to Robert face-to-face
22:00and ask him hey you know why are you
22:02fingering me for this crime did you ever
22:04do you ever get that answer from him do
22:06we know or it just seems odd for
22:09somebody to to point to somebody they
22:10hardly know well it might mean uh with
22:15when you ain't us
22:17and you being interrogated by law
22:20enforcement who has made up their mind
22:22that you do and they're not here nothing
22:25else it's very intimidating so I don't
22:29blame anyone for saying what they say in
22:32those moments because it's very
22:33intimidating but the fact of the matter
22:35is she did come back and correct the
22:37records the same night and that's the
22:40part they didn't want to hear now did I
22:42ever talk to him about I want to say ten
22:46years later we want that roadie job and
22:49they had put us on the same pot and
22:52their personal training rig group and my
22:55neighbor had told me hit on the walls -
22:58hey man I think they got that dude in
23:00the red group
23:01I swear dude we said I do they lied on
23:02you the next morning we went out to the
23:05red group they brought him out to the
23:07red group and what he was out there
23:10before me when I walked through the gate
23:12I walked right up to him and by time I
23:16got halfway to he said man I just want
23:18to apologize to you and your family for
23:19Lionel and I said to him I said man I
23:23don't even wanna know why you lie
23:24because whatever reason you lied I left
23:27rather for yourself either my attorneys
23:29or the press out of state all I'm gonna
23:33tell you is this you and I can't be in
23:34the same red group together and then I I
23:37forgive you but that's for me and that
23:41allows me to move a fall but we can't be
23:43in the same group do you understand that
23:46he said yeah I understand that man and I
23:49know how you feel I apologized and he
23:51won't go to the gauge neat old officer
23:53also I need to get out of this red goo
23:55because I live on that man and trial and
23:57I also miss doing that and get out and I
24:00never seen him again and how did you
24:02keep your composure I did when now this
24:05is something that's not necessarily in
24:06any of the Articles that we've read so
24:08this is something at least for me I'm
24:11learning first time talking to you which
24:13is very very interesting so you meet
24:15Robert Carter on death row ten years
24:18after you've been wrongfully convicted
24:20based on his testimony testimony that it
24:23sounds like was perjured testimony was
24:25untrue so you're meeting him in the rec
24:28yard how did you not just
24:31how'd you not deck him I mean most of us
24:32would have wanted to just take a huge
24:34wild swing at him and and beat him to
24:36within an inch of his life what what
24:39inside of you kept you calm well first
24:41of all let me just correct you say no it
24:44doesn't sound like surgery it was rumors
24:46about a special court of appeal in fact
24:48it was perjured testimony now how I kept
24:52my cool but at that time the whole case
24:55had become bigger than me this justice
24:58guessing that had become bigger than me
25:00it wasn't me anymore and I had already
25:02discovered that there lies the
25:04manipulation of the games that they play
25:06to make this man allow me wasn't really
25:09about you it was about a system that was
25:12broken and I wanted to stay focused on
25:15being able to advocate for that in terms
25:17of just being upset because they made a
25:18man lie on me that they knew was lying
25:20the system should not allow a man to
25:23just lie on you who don't know you and
25:25you lose your life in your freedom those
25:28biggest to me didn't just ride the car
25:30it was about a system that had failed to
25:32protect me when I was in now in the
25:35Texas Monthly article that Pamela Koloff
25:38wrote in the second installment
25:39innocents found there was a point where
25:42you were already free you're out of
25:43prison and Pamela had asked you whether
25:47you were feeling bitterness or anger and
25:49I think you said something to the effect
25:51of I won't be bitter and angry unless
25:54things don't change if things don't
25:57change then I'll be bitter and angry do
25:59you remember saying that yeah I mean I
26:02feel that every day this is why I get up
26:04if I share my story and I try to share
26:07my experiences so that we understand
26:08that me for this great reform and I
26:10think that's the only way the state of
26:12Texas in the United States and general
26:14can apologize to me and over 100 some
26:16other reasons walked up that little
26:17Street that you change the system you
26:19make the system more equal for all of
26:21them you know I understand we we make
26:24mistakes that's fine we'll bill to make
26:26mistakes is that when we don't own we
26:28don't admit to them and we start trying
26:31to cover things up is that when our
26:33system starts to fella when we make a
26:36mistake and we admit it we can learn
26:38from it and make our system better
26:40that's all part of it but we don't want
26:42to do that politics is so ingrained in
26:44our
26:45that we can't afford to be honest do we
26:47have to cover everything up and just
26:49leave the system as it is and as is
26:51getting the lives of people like me do
26:54you think maybe the country has become
26:56more aware of those are young fully
27:00convicted has there been any positive
27:01change do you think during during your
27:04experience social media has made people
27:07more aware about injustice and our
27:09criminal justice system than ever before
27:12particularly the dead tournament every
27:14morning I get up not the articles on
27:16Facebook about men who have been
27:18exonerated we're just now walking out of
27:20fear as a man just walked out of prison
27:21less than two weeks ago that is 45 years
27:24of his life in prison for crime he did
27:27not commit well he was 26 come out with
27:29me like 79 okay these stories are
27:32happening every day and people are
27:34becoming more aware of it so I do feel
27:36like things are changing I I not listen
27:38I take my head off the tensions but
27:40trying to get out in the front this
27:41change will make its try surround your
27:43own paper but it's on paper right now
27:45it's not in practice once we catch up to
27:48the paper and start putting in practice
27:49Texas would be miles ahead of everyone
27:52else on criminal justice reform
27:54so I do see changes hey when I was
27:56thinking young people taking to the
27:57street on gun laws I said man there's
27:58hope for a bright future in this country
28:00looking for young people to make they
28:03are not just sitting here madman
28:04politicians telling them what they
28:05should think in fear but they're
28:07actually taking action and that's what's
28:08needed to be across this country we
28:10should stand up to injustice just like
28:12we stand up to gun violence and when we
28:14do that I'd say you can't yeah
28:16the system has changed and I don't know
28:18fall to the future and seeing how these
28:20young kids wanna come up and make us all
28:22feel that we're all Americans and not
28:24just some of us one of the turning
28:27points and I keep going back to Pamela
28:29koloff's article from Texas Monthly
28:31because the first installment of that
28:33innocence lost was the name of it in the
28:37very first installment she was
28:38interviewing Charles subasta the DA who
28:41had prosecuted you the first time around
28:43and in it during the interview he had
28:46said something to her to the effect that
28:47on the night before his testimony Robert
28:51Carter had effectively admitted to him
28:54that he was having doubts about his
28:55testimony that he had wrongfully pointed
28:57you out and when Pamela
28:59Koloff had asked him that question did
29:00Robert Carter say this to you he said
29:02something to the effect of he did tell
29:04me that yes he did tell me something
29:06like that that quote from that article
29:10is effectively what the federal courts
29:13used to grant your writ of habeas corpus
29:15and say yes you were wrongfully
29:17convicted and overturn your conviction
29:19am I getting that correct yeah I mean he
29:22admitted to Geraldo Rivera because his
29:25was you know worldö Rivera witness
29:27interviewed him and I think about a lie
29:29is that if you don't remember to change
29:31them and talk the best let me remember
29:33the lies they told the convicted me so
29:35for the first time he was honest when
29:37someone asked him mr. Carter i'ma tell
29:39you that mr. Grady then he said yes he
29:41told me that he said why don't you
29:43pursue great you think it was my gut
29:45feeling and mr. green was involved he
29:47says the most fact you just your gut
29:49fixed they would only explain that how
29:51you call us them so yeah
29:54so I guess it sounds like maybe the
29:56Koloff article got to the attention of
29:59Geraldo Rivera he then interviewed
30:01Charles subasta and then Charles the
30:03beste on television had admitted that
30:07Robert Carter had made that admission to
30:09him the night before Robert Carter's
30:11testimony is that the winnings that well
30:13let me let me correct you because it was
30:16out of that came down in and really in
30:19two thousand thousand okay you know in
30:24other words people have known about this
30:25case for a long time is it that nobody
30:27would in turn Nicole came on board and
30:30when the call came on board that's when
30:32she took it to the next level she used
30:34the information that she gathered to
30:36make sure that everybody knew and that's
30:38how it got into my brief in front of the
30:41Fifth Circuit yeah I'll call we've not
30:44introduced Nicole yet let's tell
30:45everybody who Nicholas you're talking
30:47about Nicole
30:48Casarez ring the greatest attorney a lot
30:53no I hate that I don't make anybody feel
30:57bad but I am Telling You from breathing
30:59today the great attorney life tell us
31:02about how you came to know Nicole and
31:05how your relationship developed and what
31:07she did for you that's a it's a very
31:09interesting story and we haven't gone to
31:10that yet and so let's talk about
31:12now let's talk about Nicole and
31:14eventually we'll get to Kelly Sigler and
31:16that whole cast of characters that
31:18eventually walked you to where you were
31:21able to walk out of prison yes Nicole is
31:24my my big sister and my angel because I
31:29watched the woman fight for over eight
31:32years without any compensation because
31:35she believed in justice that's too old I
31:38thought that every prosecutor and any
31:41attorney
31:41I thought you out anyone cook that and
31:44took it seriously but I found out that
31:46Nicole really believed in those words
31:49the hope that she took now how did you
31:51meet Nicole let's start there let's talk
31:53about how you guys came to contact all
31:55men Nicole is that Nicole is a
31:57journalism professor at the University
31:59of st. Thomas she and her students were
32:02attending a wrongful conviction clinic
32:05in University Houston by special Bailey
32:08doc who started to test this innocent
32:10network and David was talking about my
32:12case because a freelance reporter had
32:16contacted him and said hey y'all really
32:18need to look into this case so they was
32:20talking about my patients out of my
32:22house on a fast track for an execution
32:24was a lot of Investigation needed to be
32:27done in it and then they just asked him
32:29who would like to look into it Nicole
32:31and her students they looked at each
32:34other my buddy else ready to end and she
32:36has raised her hand and they were
32:38excited but look into a case not because
32:40they thought I was innocent they just
32:42want to look into the Cape so Nicole and
32:45her students start looking into my case
32:47started going around reading about it
32:49and finding witness and talked to before
32:51they even came to me and after I think
32:54she told me she had been doing this
32:56research in my case for two years then
32:58finally came down the death Road visit
33:00me one day and when she came she said
33:04that and she asked me is there anything
33:06you want to tell me and I remember the
33:08first thing I told yes ma'am first thing
33:11I want you to know I'm not going to sit
33:13out here and try to prove to you that
33:14I'm in I'm just going to ask you if you
33:17were help me with this case because if
33:19you do your job you find evidence you'll
33:21find out that I am it but I didn't want
33:24to tell her that didn't want to try to
33:26that I was gentlemen because that is
33:28just notion is the stigma that everybody
33:30that goes to prison outside their
33:32influence and that is just so far from
33:34the truth but it works for politician I
33:36didn't feel that I could just say that
33:40and feel comfortable with it because I
33:41didn't want her to say Yeah right
33:42everybody say the innocent so I said do
33:45the work and she went up and she did to
33:48work and it took eight years that she
33:50went on and she found all the evidence
33:52that truly pointed to my actual
33:55innocence land and I I ended up walking
33:57out of prison because of that great one
34:00can you tell us what it was like walking
34:03out of incarceration into freedom for
34:05the first time what did that feel like
34:06wow man you know so let me tell you
34:11about that day so I woke up I'm behind
34:13bars and I'm writing I'm responding to
34:15some questions that Pamela Koloff had
34:18written to me and we got an article that
34:21she had been right and the reason why we
34:23have it is like that because the sheriff
34:25and the general understands that Pamela
34:27could not come back and visit me without
34:29being on the telephone so they can hear
34:30everything we're talking about so we
34:32were losing our recruitment as a media
34:35come on cleared it so we decided that we
34:38would just resort to right and I was
34:42sitting there right and she was asking
34:43me I she asked me about Kelly see and I
34:46was right to her so yeah I've heard that
34:49she is the type of person that will
34:51throw anything on the wall and see if it
34:52speaks and mission ever a reputation I'm
34:55not afraid of it I'm innocent she can't
34:57change and right Xena they also came and
35:01knocked on my window because they still
35:03had me in solitary confine and he told
35:06me put my shirt on let's go walk down
35:08the hall you taking me somewhere I asked
35:10where he was taking me like just come on
35:12roll with me and we ended up walking
35:15down the hall and I got afraid because
35:16I've never been up front before and I
35:19thought maybe my turning was here but he
35:20didn't take me that way so I told him I
35:22said man I can't go nowhere with you
35:24officer without my turn it because by
35:25the end I learned by eating versus
35:27Wainwright and I wasn't going nowhere no
35:29I'll see what I return and so when I get
35:32up to the finally get to the front it
35:34just in my paranoia he opened up the
35:36door and I seen the cold air so Nicole
35:38she stood up
35:40and I could tell she was fighting tears
35:42and in my mind I was just thinking we're
35:44you know it's just a more bad news but
35:46they're gonna kill me are they gonna
35:48free me because I was refusing to take
35:50any type of a deal even just to walk out
35:52that day I told them you're gonna have
35:54to feed me in myself because you gonna
35:55kill me I'll freed me I'm not gonna
35:57compromise the truth
35:58and so this particular day she stood up
36:00and she told me she said hey Anthony
36:02remember when you told me that God would
36:04do and I said yes but in my mind I was
36:07wondering well food because I was hungry
36:09I didn't know what was about to help and
36:11she told me and she said well I just
36:13want to let you know that God is good
36:15because the state just dismissed all the
36:17charges against you and I was like what
36:19she said yes miss eagels dismiss all
36:21charges against you and she's not she's
36:22not dismissing them because evidence got
36:24lost or witnesses have bad she dismissed
36:28me because she believes in your
36:29innocence that she's gonna go on
36:30national television let the whole world
36:32know and all I could I do is I thought
36:34what do I do now you know I've been
36:38incarcerated for eighteen and a half
36:40years and I've been fight for this day
36:42but I'm still fight even though the day
36:44is arrived and I didn't know I put my
36:46shield its water down and so I asked him
36:48what do i do man and she said well you
36:49don't put your clothes on get out of
36:51here by that time the officer came to
36:53say you wanted to meet your proxy I said
36:56yeah but I didn't want no property I was
36:58just so discombobulated because I
36:59couldn't believe that's find me this day
37:01is this day that I dream so many dreams
37:03about and if there's not going to be
37:05real how am I gonna come back from this
37:07so I was so scared to even believe the
37:09information that she had just told me
37:11you know and that when I walked out in
37:13the hallway just started to dawn on me
37:15that came in it's over it's over you
37:20know and so when I got to the film and I
37:22asked me what did I want they're not
37:24making total mind or nothing I want to
37:26get the hell out of there before y'all
37:27change our mind so he said well you know
37:29you want your pictures and everything
37:30and yeah I took my pictures and my legal
37:32working just like that at 45 years old I
37:35went when I was 26 that's 45 years old
37:39I was walking out the side door with
37:42jail with everything I own in a little
37:45box from 18 had yielded from the
37:48convicted this is the fall of 2010 right
37:51when you walk down
37:53I walk that I took the 27 2002 now there
37:57was for the benefit of all the listeners
37:59who were wondering
38:00we've talked a bit about Kelly Sigler
38:01and Anthony if you don't mind I'm gonna
38:03try to summarize this just to make sure
38:05everybody knows Kelly Sigler she was
38:07appointed the special prosecutor over
38:09your case after your writ of habeas
38:12corpus was granted at the federal level
38:15so she was supposed to effectively
38:17reprosecution in the process of going
38:20over all of the boxes of information and
38:23going over witness reports talking to
38:25people she and she in another Texas
38:28Ranger had effectively spoken to 60
38:30people in the course of a 30 day period
38:31and at the end of this process she came
38:35to the conclusion just as Nicole Casarez
38:37had that you were completely innocent
38:40so Kelly hey yeah as the prosecutor had
38:43basically said I'm not gonna pursue this
38:46case is that a fair assessment yeah you
38:49know yeah it is because I spoken with
38:52her several times since I mean we're
38:54friends now but yeah she told me she
38:57that I came in and we prosecute you send
38:59me back to death row I went through 25
39:02boxes of evidence and I just see not one
39:04thing that connected you to this crime
39:05and then I started going over all the
39:07records of the DA and I'm started seeing
39:10all the things that the prosecutor was
39:12doing and I was like oh my god I just
39:13literally start saying this how this man
39:15was was really just breaking all the
39:17rules to convict someone in her and she
39:20said but not I didn't want to stop that
39:21so I went and I called in all my
39:23investigators one by one and I asked
39:26them what did they think about this case
39:27she said mr. Gray's each investigator
39:30said to me this man is innocent and she
39:32said that's when I went to the
39:34prosecutor and told him we have to
39:35dismiss this case because this manager
39:37they together went to the jury and they
39:39told the judge you have to release this
39:41man he needs time of dismissal daughter
39:44because he's innocent and she was
39:45refusing to do so so they basically had
39:47the village to go to the media and tell
39:50the media that she refused and let
39:51innocent man go if she didn't just try
39:53to dismiss a lot so reluctantly she
39:56signed the dismissal order and that's
39:58how I ended instantly walking about to
40:00do was life on the outside
40:03hard after eighteen and a half years was
40:05an adjustment or
40:07did you just come back out and pick up
40:09right where you left off no my man's a
40:11big adjustment man the whole world has
40:13changed on me technology has changed
40:14more houses didn't build and by seeing
40:17like things on top of each other
40:18politics was ingrained I mean it was
40:21just really crazy man and uh but he was
40:23excited because I had fought for my
40:25right to be free because that was my
40:27right I hadn't done nothing wrong
40:29for them to take it so it was exciting
40:31but it was scary I I went through a lot
40:34of emotions man I've met with a lot of
40:36things because uh it was just all man it
40:40was just one day where I lived outside
40:43my body because I could not believe what
40:46was happening even though I thought all
40:48this time I just feels outside my body
40:50and watch myself how I tried to I guess
40:54kind of put myself back out here and be
40:57part of a normal society
40:59it was very challenging so tell us this
41:01what was the very first thing you ate
41:03when he got out of prison very first
41:05thing I ate man I went home with my
41:08investigator
41:09Rico Hayden and his wife had made a pot
41:14roast cuz she flushes but she made a
41:17pyro and you know some pot roast
41:19that's prevents that sounds pretty
41:23interesting it's all you told me earlier
41:26you had a kolache for breakfast so
41:27you're having kolaches for breakfast and
41:29Russian pot roast for dinner this is
41:30great you know but I didn't really eat
41:33that much because I could I was so
41:35excited so let's say I was presented
41:38with an opportunity to eat rose but I
41:40could so the next one is when I really
41:42ain't and I was barbecue we I had me
41:46with a lot of media in Houston I was in
41:48Austin so we had to drive lower back
41:50tasting and the guy with my
41:51investigating like you want to get some
41:53meat man it was mighty I'm gonna clap I
41:55was like yeah man let me get some
41:57barbecue I haven't had barbecue in 20
41:59years so we stopped barbecue for
42:01breakfast i back to the clock level of
42:05let's say 11 o'clock so yeah it's like a
42:07brunch so your barbeque brunch and it
42:09was good to cook by time I got to
42:11interview I had about you juice all over
42:14my shirt I had to go change my shirt for
42:16the media yeah so barbecue that I first
42:20time
42:21and it was really delicious now tell us
42:25a little bit about the book infinite
42:27hope what inspired you to write this and
42:30we hoping people take away from the book
42:33Wow what is five new directors you know
42:36since I've been out I have I've done a
42:39lot you know I really put my story out
42:42there I was the first one to take a very
42:45bumpy grievance to see where I just the
42:49prosecutor and had in this book I took
42:52advantage of the amendment of that love
42:54allowed me to do that I've been
42:56traveling all over the world educating
42:58people about our need for criminal
43:00justice reform and telling my story from
43:02here to wrong and in other places and
43:06you know it just got to the point where
43:08every time I will go and do something
43:10someone will come up to me and talk
43:12about how inspired they were with my
43:14life story and it just made me feel like
43:17you know I need to put this between the
43:19pages of the book so that so that many
43:22others can read and hear this story
43:24because it's a great story and it speaks
43:28to our need to be involved in our
43:30criminal justice system this we shall
43:32need to reform it and it just speaks to
43:34me having hope regardless of your
43:37circumstances in life so at that point I
43:40decide that you nama sit here and write
43:41this book because actually I started in
43:43Wilde
43:44death-rope but I put it up because I
43:46feel like it the journey had been
43:48completed I wanted to complete the
43:50journey by just born the prosecutor I'm
43:51just gonna be on and once I just brought
43:53the prosecutor I was like okay it's time
43:55to write the book because I wanted to
43:57show people how when you do good good
43:59can come back to you but when you do bad
44:01at some points to catch up with you now
44:03in your books you've got a poem here
44:05called surviving death row yes yeah at
44:08the very beginning of part three of your
44:10book if you have that available in front
44:13of you would you mind reading us that
44:16poem uh it's a powerful poem you wrote
44:19you would ask me that but I think it
44:22it's like yeah it's I also wrote a poem
44:29about a good
44:33judge well I was just thinking about how
44:36avaricious me to death
44:37get like he's gonna live forever you
44:39know we don't become immoral because we
44:42believe in the death penalty
44:43you know it's not that in a jumpsuit
44:45because you believe in the death penalty
44:46and so I was in and my [ __ ] one night
44:51just thinking it's like three something
44:52anymore so I just started right needs
44:55corn and actually I wrote the one year
44:58talking about about three o'clock that
45:00morning and then there's another one in
45:03your book on page 104 called the judge
45:05he wrote the judge in 2004 so you can
45:09pick you want to read the judge or do
45:10you want to read prison life let me read
45:13okay I'm a reprove like jazzy sing and
45:18surviving that road you want me to uh to
45:21read it uh yeah read it for us and says
45:25[ __ ] in this six by nine self living
45:29under conditions worse than hell blocks
45:32away from society simply because the man
45:35lied on everyone says stay positive but
45:40it's a struggle every day these
45:42conditions discouraged me that [ __ ]
45:44won't go away I'm not always the best of
45:47mood especially when I see the ball I'd
45:50rather be lying on the beach looking at
45:53the moon and the star convicted for a
45:55crime I didn't commit is this feeling I
45:57can't explain it's the kind of thing
46:00that drives a man insane you're a strong
46:03man is what I often hear the man I don't
46:06think people really understand my fear
46:09sitting in the cell 23 hours a day
46:11standing at the things that's making my
46:14body decay I just shake my head when I
46:17sit here and think how the hell did I
46:20end up here this place stinks
46:23somebody anybody get me out of this
46:26place
46:26I'm not an animal I'm part of the human
46:29race but I guess I lie down and try to
46:33sleep because I really haven't gotten in
46:35in a week
46:36don't forget to tell your friends about
46:38prison life
46:39this place isn't for me for me children
46:43are your wife so I pray that you never
46:46get to see this
46:47place it's not a pretty sight it doesn't
46:52have a face his prison life yeah I was
46:56just laying in the bed man and I was
46:58looking at the wall and I was thinking
46:59about my life and it's like I'm dying up
47:02here
47:02I mean emotional death row I mean
47:07haven't done nothing to nobody
47:10I'm a good person how the hell I end up
47:13on that float and then all of a sudden
47:15my opinion was in my hand and I started
47:18right and I've never written a poem
47:19before so these were my real emotions at
47:23that time so you went from being on
47:26death row
47:27at that time a convicted felon to now
47:29being a published author and a and a
47:31speaker on criminal justice reform you
47:33know Anthony out ladies gentleman the
47:35book is infinite hope you really should
47:36get your hands on it's a powerful piece
47:38and for lawyers in particular you know
47:40it's we need to remind ourselves that as
47:43much as the system went wrong it was a
47:45group of lawyers and journalists who all
47:48helped to set this ship right as well so
47:50you know let's get our hands on on this
47:52book let's read it and as lawyers let's
47:55make sure that we study what happened
47:56and try to do what Anthony has asked us
47:59to do and see how we can improve our
48:01system Anthony has been a pleasure to
48:03have you here your story is very
48:04powerful and I wish we had all day wish
48:07we had a whole week to talk to you about
48:09your thoughts and your experiences but
48:10you've really given us a lot to think
48:12about so thank you so much for being
48:14here
48:15well rocky I really really appreciate
48:18you guys inviting me on the show
48:20man it just tells me that God is always
48:22good because every day that I get to
48:24share my story is a good day it's a day
48:27that's gonna help move the meeting today
48:29this one also save a life so thank you
48:31guys for the platform this morning I
48:33really appreciate it
48:34well Anthony thank you again I hope you
48:37enjoyed what he had to say it was an
48:38amazingly powerful message and just a
48:41compelling story so what's there to
48:44learn from this what can you take away
48:46well we're gonna find out I want to be
48:48joined here in just a few minutes by
48:50Patricia mechanical and Lowell Brown
48:52with the State Bar of Texas so we're
48:54gonna take a quick break and Patricia
48:55and Lowell are gonna join us so it's
48:56stay tuned I'll be back in just a couple
48:58of seconds
48:59[Music]
49:07[Applause]
49:10and lazy tell me we are back this is
49:12rocky deer with Texas bar talk the
49:14official podcast for the State Bar of
49:16Texas and how appropriate that I have a
49:19couple of very very honored colleagues
49:20here with me both from the State Bar of
49:23Texas
49:23we've got Patricia mechanic oh she
49:25should be no stranger to any of you out
49:27there who read the Texas bar journal
49:28she's a managing editor for the Texas
49:30bar journal and Patricia do a fantastic
49:32job it's a great publication and we've
49:35got Lowell Brown Communications Division
49:37director for the State Bar of Texas
49:39they've actually been here in the studio
49:42this entire time when we were talking
49:44with Anthony and it was such a powerful
49:47story we had to take a few moments and
49:49talk Patricia you're actually the one
49:51who suggested bringing Anthony on how
49:54did you come to learn about him and what
49:57do you want Texas lawyers to learn from
49:58this whole experience well rocky I first
50:01learned about Anthony graves when I was
50:04actually working at Texas Monthly and
50:06one of my colleagues was Pamela Koloff
50:08who was working on this story so I have
50:12followed it for for many years and then
50:15when I learned that he had a new book
50:17out I thought that this would be a great
50:18opportunity for our listeners to hear
50:22his story if they had not already heard
50:24it before
50:24and as I was reading the book the one
50:27thing that really struck me at the very
50:29beginning of the book was the day that
50:31he was thrown in jail and he felt like
50:35he was innocent and he didn't do
50:36anything wrong and what really struck
50:37out at me was that he didn't really
50:40think that he needed a lawyer because he
50:42assumed that everyone knew that he was
50:44innocent because it seems so absurd to
50:46him that he was actually getting thrown
50:48in jail for a crime that he knew that he
50:50didn't commit and so to me that really
50:53rung home that you know even though you
50:56may be you think you're innocent you
50:58really don't realize the role that a
51:00lawyer can play in shaping what happens
51:03to you going through the legal process
51:05well it's funny because you know when we
51:07watch shows on TV these crime shows and
51:10and law shows the characters especially
51:13the the police officer characters on
51:15these shows they often kind of throw
51:18their arms up and roll their eyes the
51:19minute the person playing the suspect
51:22says I want a lawyer
51:23and they say well okay what do they need
51:25a lawyer for if they're innocent that
51:27seems to be portrayed in the popular
51:28media and so Patricia what you're saying
51:31is it's a hugely important issue that a
51:33lot of people don't realize because they
51:34watch TV and they think why would I need
51:35a lawyer if I'm actually innocent Lowell
51:38do you think media plays a role in this
51:40and how do we as lawyers maybe at least
51:43attempt to overcome that sure I think
51:46there is an incredible world that
51:48lawyers can play individually and
51:50through the State Bar of Texas and and
51:52that is through one of the issues of the
51:54State Bar of Texas is law related
51:56education and starting that initiative
51:58early in schools so our State Bar law
52:01related education department really does
52:03stress the role of lawyers in society
52:06and why they're so important and they
52:08actually develop curriculum that takes
52:09it into schools so I think the earlier
52:11we start it and the more we can spread
52:13the word through the media the more
52:15people will be aware of their rights
52:16it's a such a huge issue that I think a
52:19lot of us don't often often think about
52:21at least in our daily lives we get
52:23wrapped up in law practice we don't
52:24think about the bigger picture this book
52:28infinite hope that we heard Anthony
52:30talked a bit about do you think it's a
52:33real an Anthony's talk in general do you
52:35think it's a real indictment on our
52:37legal system or is there something maybe
52:39different at play I mean either one of
52:41you what do you guys think is really the
52:43takeaway from this well I think what are
52:45the reasons we wanted to bring it to our
52:46listeners is that although lawyers in
52:49the legal system were a part of what
52:51went wrong in Nathan's case ultimately
52:53it also shows how they're good lawyers
52:56who are working and committed to justice
52:59and seeing the justices done can also
53:00right wrongs and it's great to see in
53:04this story how there were dedicated
53:06lawyers and also journalism students and
53:09reporters who were pursuing the truth
53:11and how the truth did went out
53:13absolutely and now Patricia when Pamela
53:16Koloff was investigating this story and
53:19was about to write it did you get a
53:21chance to talk to her behind the scenes
53:22and what she was learning as she wrote
53:24it or did you did you come to know of it
53:26once it was published in Texas Monthly
53:28if I remember correctly I think she did
53:32talk about the story a little bit as she
53:34was writing about it but she didn't give
53:36away too much she
53:37is really focused and working on it and
53:40crafting her article she's a very
53:43in-depth reporter that really listens to
53:45all aspects of things that are going on
53:47and and then puts together a story that
53:51can really be powerful as we can see I
53:53do remember that once the story came out
53:57it was just one of those stories where
54:00we knew that it was important to be out
54:03there and that it was hopefully
54:05something would result from the article
54:07that once it came out do you think she
54:09was surprised that it played such a
54:12pivotal role and ultimately freeing
54:13Anthony Graves I can't speak for her but
54:16I can only think that knowing her and
54:20knowing that she likes to seek the truth
54:22that I'm sure that that she was happy
54:25that the truth did finally come out very
54:29interesting story about the interplay
54:30between the legal system and journalism
54:33and how the two kind of worked together
54:34to help right or wrong well Patricia and
54:37Lowell thank you again for being here I
54:39hope you've enjoyed listening to what
54:41Patricia and Lowell had to say and for
54:42the contributions that they made they
54:44both raised some very important points
54:45but more importantly you know these two
54:47are rock stars and if you have not yet
54:50you need to make sure that you come to
54:52this State Bar of Texas annual meeting
54:53every year happens in June and you don't
54:56want to miss it it's in a different
54:57Texas City every year it's a lot of fun
55:00and you meet a lot of folks and one of
55:01my favorite things is to hang out the
55:03State Bar staff so Patricia Lowell thank
55:05you again and thank you for listening to
55:08the State Bar of Texas podcast if you
55:11like what you heard today you know where
55:13to find us you can find us at legal talk
55:14Network com there's a lot of amazing
55:16content up there you don't want to miss
55:18it
55:18also remember to please rate us in Apple
55:21podcasts and or follow us on Twitter or
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55:24thank you again we'll see you next time
55:31if you'd like more information about
55:32today's show please visit legal talk
55:34network comm go to Texas bar comm slash
55:38podcasts subscribe via Apple podcast and
55:41RSS find both the State Bar of Texas and
55:44legal talk Network on Twitter Facebook
55:46and LinkedIn or download the free app
55:49from legal talk network in Google Play
55:51and iTunes the views expressed by the
55:55participants of this program are their
55:57own and do not represent the views of
55:59nor are they endorsed by the State Bar
56:02of Texas legal talk network or their
56:04respective officers directors employees
56:07agents representatives shareholders or
56:10subsidiaries none of the content should
56:13be considered legal advice as always
56:15consult a lawyer
56:16[Music]
56:19you

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