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Anne Driscoll Hosts Public Conversation with Sunny Jacobs and Peter Pringle — Transcript

by Irish Innocence Project at Griffith College · 12,205 words · 1,745 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:07hi everyone I'd like to welcome everyone
0:09to this very special event and I'd also
0:12like to extend my thanks to the law
0:15faculty for helping to make this program
0:17happen and especially to Sunny Jacobs
0:20and Peter Pringle for agreeing to come
0:23here and visit us here at Griffith
0:25College we at the Irish Innocence
0:28Project at Griffith College are so
0:30grateful for them agreeing to spend some
0:33time with us and share the story of
0:35their lives uh I first heard of sunny
0:40and Peter back in November of
0:422011 when I read a story about their
0:45wedding in The New York
0:47Times now every love story is special
0:51right but their love story is
0:55extraordinary uh it's not everyone that
0:58has Brook Shields Maro Thomas and Amy
1:01Irving as
1:03Witnesses but that's not really what
1:05made their marriage stand out it's the
1:07story of their lives and the
1:09circumstances under which they met they
1:12are from two different countries on two
1:14different continents but the paths of
1:17their lives have been eerily
1:19similar Sunny is an American who was
1:24wrongfully convicted of killing two cops
1:26in Florida and sentenced to death row in
1:2919 1976 serving 177 years before she was
1:34freed Peter is an Irishman who was
1:38wrongfully convicted of killing two
1:40cops in n and uh was sentenced to death
1:44row in 1980 and served 15 years before
1:48he was
1:48freed they met at an AM Amnesty
1:52International program on the death
1:54penalty in gallway they married four and
1:58a half years ago and they have opened up
2:01their home in gallway as the world's
2:03first Sanctuary for exonorees
2:06they are two of the most exemplary Souls
2:10I know and I'm privileged to consider
2:13them
2:14friends welcome thank you thank you an
2:17now yesterday we had a meeting of the
2:19Irish Innocence Project at Griffith
2:21college and I invited everybody to
2:24submit questions for sunny and Peter and
2:27uh I have those I'm going to share them
2:30but before I do I get to ask the first
2:33question because I'm the boss
2:36here so uh as the project manager of the
2:40Irish Innocence Project at Griffith
2:42College which is one of two out of 68
2:46similar organizations worldwide that are
2:49recognized by the Innocence Network that
2:52has both law and journalism students
2:55working cooperatively on cases and I'm
2:58particularly interested in promoting the
3:01respective roles of Lauren journalism
3:03because I'm a journalist not a lawyer
3:06thank you
3:07Jackie there we
3:10go so I'm really interested in the
3:12respective roles of Laur and journalism
3:15in uh in how they might hold the
3:20criminal justice system accountable so
3:23uh I know Sunny for you uh in your case
3:27was taken up not only by lawyers Pro
3:28Bona lawyers
3:30but a childhood friend right who uh
3:33happened to be a documentary filmmaker
3:36so I'm I'm interested in what you both
3:38have to say about what the role should
3:42be or could be of both LA and journalism
3:45and how that might um play
3:48out okay um well for me um I think
3:53journalism and documentary film making
3:56is in my mind is comes under the larger
3:58umbrella of Med media and I think media
4:01plays an extremely important role
4:03because it's the interface between the
4:07legal system and the public people don't
4:10know what's going on in the courts
4:12except for what they read or see from
4:15the media so it's extremely important um
4:19they find that in cases where uh the
4:23public uh actually participates in a
4:26trial that the trial is more likely to
4:29be
4:30more
4:31balanced when the the judge and the jury
4:34see that people are interested in this
4:37person and that can only happen through
4:39the media otherwise people don't know
4:42about it and then there's social media
4:44as well which is kind of a different
4:46thing but but in this under the same
4:48umbrella so I think that um it's a
4:51marriage like of necessity really
4:54between between the two
4:56Peter yes um with as you're speaking I
5:00was just thinking
5:04that sometimes the
5:06media do a kind of Witch Hunt on the
5:10accused and that can have a detrimental
5:13effect on the outcome of a trial so that
5:17the person is not seen as a human being
5:18at all but rather as some sort of
5:20monster who has committed some sort of
5:22terrible crime and in that instance I
5:24think judge and jury can
5:26swing the wrong way right so the
5:29balanced media is really what's
5:31important and the investigative
5:33journalist is what's important and that
5:35takes huge courage to be that because it
5:37goes against you see when when there's a
5:40particularly high-profile crimes
5:42committed and
5:45um an investigative team of police
5:47officers are assigned to investigate the
5:50crime they're put under huge pressure to
5:52get
5:53results and they put under pressure from
5:55their superiors and from the political
5:58establishment and also from the media um
6:03now they're not put under pressure to
6:04get Justice they put under pressure to
6:07get
6:08results and that's what they have to do
6:11and
6:12um sometimes human nature being what
6:15it's what the way it is and it is about
6:17human nature always because every system
6:20that we have that's been either designed
6:22by or is run by human beings is going to
6:24have all the failings of other human
6:26beings and that of human nature and so
6:29if it a situation where a particular
6:31police officer or
6:33more maybe genuinely think that the
6:36person that that they're considering is
6:39actually guilty but they don't have
6:41proof and there's a Temptation there to
6:43you know to juggle the evidence a little
6:45bit maybe hide this particular document
6:48and or twist that little statement a
6:51little bit to get a conviction because
6:54they believe that's the right thing and
6:56then even though it's the wrong thing
6:57once they get the conviction they're
6:59praised for it and they get
7:02promotion which of course convinces them
7:05that this is the way to go and they keep
7:06doing that and that's just the reality
7:09of human
7:11nature an investigative journalist has
7:13the
7:14capacity
7:16to lay out a case in the correct way and
7:21this has the possibility of
7:25influencing um courts and juries and
7:28public into the objective way of looking
7:31at a case rather than the subjective way
7:34and it has the possibility of
7:35influencing towards Justice rather than
7:38Injustice it's an interesting thing in
7:40my own case that the police officers who
7:43lied in court were all
7:45promoted and the police officers who
7:47refuse to lie in court never received a
7:50promotion because they didn't get the
7:52results you
7:54see yeah and it's I think you've hit on
7:58something that um you know there's a
8:02tendency to want to you know it's human
8:05nature to want to achieve to further
8:10your career and so it all becomes part
8:12of that big ball of wax about well we'll
8:15just shave this and we'll you know twist
8:18this and uh for that result you know and
8:23and uh and know by the way I'll I'll
8:25benefit too because I'll make that next
8:27career move that's right yeah sometimes
8:29that's not even illegal like in the case
8:31of making a murderer um the the um uh
8:36interrogation techniques that they used
8:38are cons that they teach them in school
8:40that's right that's considered okay yeah
8:43when we could all see that it wasn't
8:44okay at all you know but but that's been
8:47the accepted practice and Peter always
8:49makes this point that the accepted
8:51practice sometimes isn't right that's
8:53right so we have to reexamine the way
8:57things are done because more and more
8:59and more cases of wrongful convictions
9:01are coming out and um that's not only
9:04due to innocence projects uh lawyers
9:06it's also due to in investigative
9:09journalists and um so we're starting to
9:13see that we need to re-evaluate the
9:16entire system and not just in America
9:18but everywhere here and speaking this
9:20afternoon we're speaking with some
9:23um secondary school kids and one of them
9:27made a point about about corruption you
9:29see
9:31and I believe myself that of
9:35course the system is corrupt it's the
9:38nature of human being systems but it's
9:40not necessarily corrupt in the sense of
9:43fraud or of crime being committed but
9:46rather the ethics that should underline
9:51the criminal justice system become
9:53corrupted by
9:55malpractice and once the malpractice is
9:58accepted
9:59it becomes the
10:01norm and and then what actually seems to
10:05happen is and I know this for a fact
10:07that over time law students are then
10:10instructed and
10:12Tau the malpractice as the correct
10:16practice and so what the reality then is
10:19distorted right down along the line so
10:21it's very important about ethics and
10:23this is again where an investigative
10:25journalist
10:27can lay out the ethical situation
10:30relating to any be given case and put it
10:33before the public so the public can see
10:35it in a different way than they do if
10:37they're reading the goto press but
10:39getting back to what you were saying
10:41about uh you know being uh ambitious and
10:46career-driven and in using cases to sort
10:49of further your career and being willing
10:51to shave
10:54ethics as much as you know I think
10:57investigative journalists can have a
10:59positive role you touched on the fact
11:01that you know Sensational coverage can
11:04also corrupt the process and uh so I I
11:08think it's important to to keep that in
11:11mind that uh there are cases for example
11:14uh you know when we were talking to the
11:16students earlier today we talked about
11:18the case of the West Memphis 3 uh it's a
11:21case in West Memphis Arkansas Damen
11:24Eckles uh and two other codefendants
11:27they were all arrested for for the
11:29murder of three 8-year-old boys whose
11:31naked bodies were found bound and in a
11:34water ditch and uh initially because of
11:38some of the wounds that were on the
11:40bodies uh it was seen that this was an
11:43example of a satanic killing and so the
11:46Press went crazy sensationalizing that
11:50crime and this was a small Southern
11:53conservative rural
11:55town and people were absolutely inflamed
11:59and demanding Justice and they wanted
12:00the culprits caught and they just the
12:03Press just ran away with this idea that
12:05this was a satanic killing and to a
12:09great extent it led to their false
12:14conviction and then what happened I
12:16think that this is so interesting
12:19because it illustrates so clearly what
12:22role both positive and negative the
12:24Press can have in these cases uh they uh
12:29HBO documentary film team came down and
12:32they came down thinking they were going
12:34to do a film about satanic killings and
12:37when they came and they did this they
12:40started doing the leg work and started
12:41doing the research it turns out that no
12:44they realized that this wasn't a satanic
12:47killing at all these guys were actually
12:49railroaded and so the first documentary
12:52that was followed up by another and
12:54another and then people started hearing
12:56about the case Johnny Depp got involved
12:59D Eddie veter from Pearl Jam got
13:01involved and the next thing you know the
13:03pendulum starts swinging in the other
13:05direction and there's great sympathy for
13:07these three guys and eventually enough
13:09pressure is put on the authorities that
13:12they're released but I I I think you
13:15know you're right that it's human nature
13:17and so there are some journalists that
13:20are very ambitious and and it's all
13:22about like selling selling stories and
13:25uh so I think it's just
13:27a really uh important thing to keep in
13:31mind both you know positive and negative
13:34right uh like I said earlier in my own
13:36case um
13:39the the Press gets their stories from
13:42the prosecution not from the defense the
13:45defenses usually be quiet about their
13:47case right but the prosecutor is the one
13:49they get their stories from that's right
13:50so naturally they want the prosecutor to
13:53call them first that's right so they
13:55want to please the prosecutor with the
13:57stores that they write and that
13:59immediately causes things to be
14:01unbalanced unbalanced it should be said
14:04that in this jurisdiction there's a PR
14:06constitutional law called real risk of
14:08an unfair trial real risk of an unfair
14:11trial based in pre-trial publicity
14:14that's right and so therefore if the
14:16sensationalist Press gets out of hand
14:18you can make that application to prevent
14:20trial going ahead of course it's only
14:22happened in one case Mr Charles J hun oh
14:26I see where is the application made by
14:29many others suceed but I think it's a
14:31very good Rule and they should adopt it
14:33in America as well so uh one of the
14:37questions that uh the Irish Innocence
14:39Project at Griffith College case workers
14:42submitted was do you have any faith in
14:45the criminal justice system
14:51today uh I think there's a movement now
14:54I think Consciousness has been raised
14:57sufficiently like a 100 monkeys you know
15:00are aware so now things are starting to
15:04uh I think there is a change happening
15:07um the best example I know of is in
15:09Norway where they have a commission to
15:12study wrongful
15:13convictions um and it's not run by the
15:16state it's a separate institution but
15:20actually if if your case is referred
15:22back to the courts by them you almost
15:24have 100% shorty that your case will be
15:27overturned um in America they have the
15:29Innocence projects now almost every
15:31state has one uh most universities are
15:34are are looking into having one and um
15:38that's helping tremendously and now that
15:41that movement is spreading worldwide so
15:43I do think there's a move I do think
15:45there's reason to to be hopeful how
15:48about you Peter
15:50Well I have reservations about it I have
15:52to admit I was uh released in
15:561995 and I opened a case against the
16:00state over what they did to me in
16:02October of
16:031995 and I'm still awaiting a hearing in
16:072016 so that's 21
16:10years um in I think it was 2002 I was
16:15notified that uh I was going to get my
16:17hearing I went up to the high court son
16:19he was with me and we went into the
16:21courtroom and the retunda there and
16:24everything was
16:25assembled and the president of the high
16:27court came out and he the case was
16:29called he said I'm very sorry we don't
16:30have a judge available today to hear the
16:34case and me in my naivity thought that's
16:37fine sure we'll be back tomorrow and
16:39when I went out into the retunda I said
16:40that to my lawyers and they said no I'm
16:42sorry Peter it doesn't work like that
16:44now you're off the you were on the top
16:45of the list and now you're off the top
16:47of the list so you go back to the bottom
16:48of the list and you have to work your
16:49way back up again so it's kind of like a
16:51legal game of snakes and ladds if they
16:54don't to hear the case they don't have a
16:55judge available and so they dump it back
16:57to the bottom and you have to wait
16:58against so I'm still waiting again H and
17:00that's the reality of the justice system
17:03in Ireland but at the same time let me
17:04tell you this uh I took sort of a
17:07certain amount of Solace out of the fact
17:09that you will remember the Larry Goodman
17:11situation of the the meat factories and
17:14all that sort of so Larry Goodman had a
17:15case in the high court it took 13 years
17:17for him to get a hearing so it's not
17:20specifically me but rather the system is
17:25so inadequate in in how it performed
17:28forms that it's slow and ponderous and
17:31you just have to take your time you have
17:32to wait your Tor you have to have
17:33eternal patience I think myself to just
17:35wait for me to die so they don't have to
17:39take because they don't want the truth
17:42to come
17:43out and the truth of the case that I was
17:47wrongly convicted about hasn't come out
17:50yet and they don't want it out but again
17:53I think that depends on the public if
17:55the public demands that they want want
17:59things to be done right they want the
18:01truth they don't just want people put
18:03away and then then the tendency is to to
18:07to change to and this is where the
18:10investigative journalist comes in it's
18:11education it's the interface again back
18:14that's right it is the interface and and
18:16good journalism can actually in a sense
18:20educate the public about what's actually
18:23going on and ask
18:25questions and and can ask questions um
18:29you see what happens in in Ireland is
18:30once once a person is Accused once a
18:33person is charged with an offense the
18:35Press can't speculate about the case and
18:38they can only report on it and that's
18:39because of this unfair trial idea you
18:42know that David's been talking about
18:44which is quite correct in America it's
18:46quite different but
18:50um I knew after I was arrested that had
18:53there had been a cover up an
18:55investigative journalist contacted me in
18:56the prison to tell me that there had
18:57been a cover up were open and that's why
18:58I was arrested because they needed to
19:00get closure to stop
19:02investigation it's incredible yeah so
19:05you guys just came back from the
19:07Innocence Network Conference it was in
19:08San Antonio Texas this year yes it's the
19:11annual Gathering of all the Innocence
19:14organizations that are part of the
19:15Innocence Network
19:18um what do you think what would you
19:21point to as and this is one of the
19:24questions what needs to change in the
19:27criminal justice system
19:32okay
19:34um prosecutors need to be made
19:37accountable for their actions big number
19:39one without a shadow of doubt they need
19:42to the the system needs to be more
19:46transparent it needs to be
19:49um actually coming back to journalism it
19:51needs to be reported in Layman language
19:54that people understand rather than legal
19:56ease uh
19:59prosecutors and police need to be held
20:02accountable for what they
20:05do and until that happens you're not
20:07really going to get changed now
20:08interestingly enough in Texas recently a
20:12prosecutor was dismissed because of
20:14malpractice and actually he was charged
20:16and he was sentenced he was sentenced to
20:18five days in prison which was the first
20:20time it's ever happened the significance
20:23of it was that he was convicted and
20:24sentenced to prison no he was sentenced
20:26to 5 days and he was released
20:29immediately on a suspended sentence and
20:32and you know but it's the fact that of a
20:34sentence is what's important yes it's
20:37the first time a prosecutors fa criminal
20:40charges in in human nature and in our
20:42society like there are cycles that
20:44happened you know and the cycle is
20:46swinging more in favor of Justice than
20:49it did
20:51before sometimes when we're doing
20:54presentations somebody will ask uh but
20:57what about
20:58Justice and sunny often answers and she
21:01says uh there is no justice there's just
21:06us now she doesn't mean just us she
21:09means just all of
21:11us and if all of
21:14us are prepared
21:17to seek
21:20Justice then we would get justice but if
21:23we're prepared to allow the
21:24administration of justice to be handled
21:26by officials without any checks and
21:29balances without any accountability
21:32without any equality without any
21:34transparency we're going to get continue
21:36to get Injustice yeah nevertheless no
21:39matter how good the system is there will
21:41inevitably be Injustice at some stage
21:44because we're human but we can lessen
21:47that to a great degree if people look
21:50out for justice and learn to love
21:54Justice
21:56because one thing I tell you now the
21:59so-called evidence used to convict me
22:03and the so-called evidence used to
22:04convict Sunny
22:06Jacobs related to neither of
22:09us that same evidence could be applied
22:11to any two of you people here and you
22:14would have been also
22:16convicted it was all made up
22:19MH it wasn't
22:21factual it was due to malpractice it was
22:24due to prosecutorial
22:26misconduct and could be apply to
22:29anybody and that's true to our
22:33knowledge of all of the people we know
22:36who are exonorees and we met 155
22:39exonorees when we were in San Antonio in
22:42Texas and the 155 exies between us
22:47collectively served over 2,000 years in
22:52prison if you can even imagine that it's
22:54it's so gross 2351 20 years
22:59exactly to be precise but getting back
23:02to the the basic
23:04question aside from um prosecutorial
23:07misconduct there's um false
23:11confessions that are are like we saw on
23:15the documentary that they get a young
23:18person who's scared to death and they
23:21convince them if they will say that they
23:23did it things will go easier for them so
23:25they do because they figure I didn't do
23:28it so that you know it won't hurt to say
23:30I did now just to get this to stop and
23:33then you know right they'll find out I
23:36didn't really do it so they they confess
23:38and then that confession is it they
23:39don't need any evidence anymore uh a
23:42number of the men said that happened to
23:44them also there's um aside from false
23:48confessions and prosecutorial misconduct
23:50there's also um The Hiding of evidence
23:53that might have shown that the person
23:55didn't do it that's a big problem
23:59um and all then there's the uh the jail
24:02house snitch that they call it someone
24:04who is up on some charges thems and sees
24:08a way to perhaps gain some leniency and
24:12sometimes it's their idea and sometimes
24:13they're approached by the prosecution
24:15which is what happened in my case as
24:16well and so then you have somebody
24:19coming forward and saying um they told
24:22me she said she did it she enjoyed it
24:25she'd do it again that's what they said
24:26in my case you know and um so that's
24:31another uh problem we found that there
24:34are pretty much four basic
24:36things um that you'll find in every one
24:39of the wrongful conviction cases and
24:41those are the basic ones so given these
24:46and there's junk science that's coming
24:47out a l junk science confirmatory bias I
24:51think is cognitive and confirmatory bias
24:54I think is very important I think we
24:56need to explain what that is because I
24:58think that's the thing that troubles me
25:01most you mean like when they submit
25:03evidence to a crime lab and and they
25:05send the whole description along with it
25:08they you the person's done it and
25:10therefore the forensics or the non
25:12trying to to please and if you to please
25:15them if you take it independently to
25:17other people they say no no there's no
25:18match whatsoever it's extraordinary even
25:21if human nature even if they say even if
25:23they send something to a forensic
25:25science lab and say um this is the
25:29sample of the blood of the
25:32accused person detained accused suspect
25:36Mur horrendous thing uh and this is
25:38another samp can you see what you can
25:40match here they're in they're just going
25:43to try and please the police they're
25:45going to try and get a match because the
25:47idea that the person has been arrested
25:49and is suspected is nearly enough to
25:52convince them that maybe the person's
25:54guilty they want to help whereas if they
25:56send two samples and say here are two
25:59samples see what you can
26:02find without saying what it's for or who
26:04it's for what do you call that David
26:06then you're going to get an objetive
26:08first is called um a cognitive bias and
26:12bias is where it's a nonforensic context
26:16so the police for example tap up the
26:18social workers or something like that to
26:20get them to write a report that confirms
26:21that's right with their assessment of
26:23things and it's a major problem in our I
26:26think I think everywhere yes yep yep so
26:30given across the board given what we
26:32know about the way things can go
26:35wrong this is another question what
26:39specific recommendations or what changes
26:41would you like to see happen what do you
26:44think would
26:46help I mean we can't change human
26:49nature no we can't but we can take it
26:52into account mhm that's a factor that
26:55needs to be taken into account um
26:58it's sort of interesting um like I said
27:01before the checks and balances need to
27:03be established the accountability
27:06transparency and equality needs to be
27:09guiding principles in in any system of
27:11of of public law yes
27:20um people should not get promotion
27:23simply because they got
27:25results this is the this is a key
27:27element here because um and by getting
27:31results I mean because they get a
27:32conviction somehow or other once a
27:34conviction happens everybody says oh
27:36that's good that's over with yeah it is
27:39but it might be an innocent person
27:40that's in prison that's right and and
27:43let me tell you we're talking about
27:45death penalty cases and murder cases and
27:47everything else but there are innocent
27:49people in prison for very minor
27:52offenses I give you an example of
27:54something when I was in Porta prison at
27:56my time there a young man came to me
27:58terribly upset young kid from 22 years
28:02of age from inner city Dublin and he was
28:05upset because he had received 5 years
28:07for 203
28:09burglaries right he was upset because
28:12the guards had promised him two years if
28:15he would uh as they say take a bow now
28:19what has happened was this young man was
28:20an drug addict he was trying to score
28:22heroin on the street in Dublin uh the
28:25guards arrested him and his and the
28:26Dealer he was strung out on drugs he was
28:29needed a fix they took him into star
28:31Street police station and uh they told
28:34him they'd give him metadon if he would
28:36uh sign to 50
28:39burglaries yeah sure he signed to the 50
28:41burglaries and then they took him from
28:43there to F Gib Street police station and
28:45they got him to sign to another 50
28:47burglaries but they didn't give him the
28:49metadone and then they took him out
28:52clarf and this he signed to another
28:54bunch of burglaries until eventually
28:56like he had 203
28:58burglaries signed to confessed to and
29:00they promised him he would only get two
29:02years and then eventually they gave him
29:03the his
29:05fix but when he went to court pleading
29:07guilty the court sentenced him to five
29:09years now the interesting thing to me
29:11was that was the only thing that annoyed
29:12him that the guards had lied to him you
29:15know so he asked me to look at the case
29:17and I said okay and I knew this kid had
29:20been in and out of jail before so I said
29:22to him look go out to the governor and
29:24ask him for copies of all your warrants
29:28and don't tell him I sent you so he went
29:31out to the Govern and bring me the
29:32wardens so he did that and when I got
29:34the wardens I discovered that he had
29:35actually been in
29:37prison while at the times when some of
29:40these burglaries had been
29:42committed he couldn't have committed
29:44them and we had to
29:46proof so I wrote him up a case and I
29:49said get your solicitor and go to appeal
29:52on this case you're going to win and and
29:54that's it so they released him two weeks
29:57later
29:59W so the case wouldn't go to appeal so
30:02nobody would know about it and the 203
30:04burglaries were wiped off the The Record
30:07Book you said something there that's
30:08very interesting which I think a lot of
30:10people who don't have interaction with
30:11the police really don't understand that
30:14they do lie all the
30:16time well I don't know whether they're
30:19all the time but they do lie
30:20consistently all right yes but this is
30:24not unusual this is again human nature
30:26if you think about it
30:28people will tell you know people say
30:30there's fibs and there's little lies and
30:31big lies and not people will lie to
30:34protect themselves people will lie to
30:38enhance themselves people will tell fibs
30:41to make themselves look better and
30:44police will tell lies if they're going
30:46to get the results that their superiors
30:48are demanding they should
30:49get so the answer is f focus focus I I I
30:55find myself using this word so often
30:58these days it's the focus the focus now
31:02is on
31:03punishment okay fear and punishment
31:06that's right and if the focus were
31:07turned
31:10to Healing
31:12Society making things
31:14better then you'd have a whole different
31:18system it would be about finding the
31:21truth making things better mhm okay
31:24they'd have to go to prison but it
31:26wouldn't be as much for punishment as it
31:28would be for rehabilitation right maybe
31:31this person can be better maybe when
31:34they get out in however many years you'd
31:37have a nice neighbor you know who'd help
31:40the other young kids in the neighborhood
31:42not to make the same mistake rather than
31:45a predator of some sort somebody who's
31:47been so messed up like even the guys who
31:50are exonerated they live in poverty now
31:54you I know you hear about the millions
31:56that some people get
31:58but it's a very small percentage that
32:01gets them you don't hear about the rest
32:03the rest most of them live in poverty
32:05for the rest of their life which is
32:07shortened tremendously by the stress
32:09that they've been through not only by
32:10being wrongly imprisoned but by getting
32:13out and having no way to start up their
32:15life again which is partly why we
32:18started the the work we do the sunny
32:21Center
32:23but there's no focus on making anything
32:26better
32:27and I think that's really the most
32:29important thing is to change the focus
32:32from um this idea about fear punishment
32:36to healing and making our society better
32:40really that simple that's so true in the
32:42United States that there's a the
32:44corrections Corporation of America is
32:46the private company that runs the
32:48prisms and they're complaining that not
32:51enough people are been sent to prison
32:52and they're losing
32:54money because company they have to the
32:59legalization the legalization of
33:01cannabis for example in some of the
33:02states in the United States means that
33:04that Des people are going to prison and
33:06they're losing money that's what it's
33:08about there okay now our prison
33:10population is quite high too smoke and a
33:13large percentage of our prison
33:14population are in prison because of
33:16non-payment of
33:18fines would you believe that that's true
33:21over 50% of the people in prison in
33:23Ireland are there because of non-payment
33:24of
33:25fines in Holland they've closed down
33:29onethird of their prisons because
33:31there's no CRI the crime has gone less
33:34and there there aren't people to put the
33:36prison and they're converting their
33:38prisons now into housing units and
33:41accommodation for
33:42refugees because there's less crime
33:45because they look at it in a different
33:47way and that's true of most of the
33:49Scandinavian countries of well in
33:50Denmark as well when a person is sent to
33:53prison in the United States that key is
33:55thrown away and they're there for the
33:56the rest of their lives if they can't
33:58when a person is sent to prison here
33:59they do their time and that's it they
34:01get one quarter remission when a person
34:03is sent to prison in
34:06Denmark the day after they go into the
34:08prison the social welfare officer in the
34:10prison hands them a booklet in which is
34:12laid out the programs that are available
34:14to them while they're in prison if they
34:16choose to work that means they work
34:18eight hours a day they get paid the same
34:21salary wage they would get if they were
34:22on the
34:23outside if they have dependence that
34:26money is the deducted so that they can
34:28maintain their wife and their family
34:30from their wages so much is deducted for
34:32the keep so much is deductive for
34:34savings for when they get out again and
34:36they serve far less time because the pro
34:40the process is not to put people away
34:42and lock them up for good but to put
34:45people away and help them to change well
34:48this leads to uh it's a nice segue into
34:51the next question which is what has the
34:55process of healing been like for you you
34:58guys sorry you said that again what is
35:00the pro what has the process for healing
35:03been like for you
35:05guys individually and together either
35:09however you want to answer it that's
35:10that's how that's what made it so nice
35:12for us is that
35:14um when we met both of us had
35:18individually and separately um decided
35:21that the best thing for us to do would
35:24be to focus on healing yeah
35:27so and it was really funny when we met
35:31um I didn't know anything about Peter
35:34and his situation and he came to hear me
35:37do a talk and he was devastated by that
35:41and hearing about what had happened to
35:42me because it brought back so many
35:45similarities of what happened to him and
35:49um then when I I finally got to ask to
35:53to I found out about his backstory and
35:55he said I said said so how did you get
35:58through your ordeal being sentenced to
36:00death in 15 years in prison he said oh I
36:03did yoga and meditation I was like oh my
36:05God because that's what I did I did yoga
36:08and meditation too and like how many
36:10guys do you know who say they did yoga
36:12and meditation to get through prison you
36:14know doesn't happen a lot so I was like
36:18oh my God this is amazing and um so that
36:22really was the basis of our original
36:25Bond not the fact that we both been
36:26wrongly convicted sentenced to death and
36:28all that that was kind of very
36:30interesting but it that it was that bond
36:33that we both had decided that healing
36:36was more important than being angry or
36:38looking for revenge or compensation or
36:41any of that that was that was it um and
36:44then we became part of each other's
36:46healing and that that's what's and one
36:50of the first subjects we discussed with
36:52each other uh was forgiveness that's
36:55right it's essential because that was so
36:57essential for both of us and it's so
37:00essential for everybody
37:02actually U be to be in the spirit of
37:05forgiveness is to cut a tie between
37:09oneself and whatever person one thinks
37:11has done one
37:13harm otherwise you're still connected
37:16yeah and by cutting that invisible tie
37:19that exists one gets freedom and
37:22forgiveness is not a for me anyway is
37:25not a generous Act towards the other
37:27person but rather it's a selfish act for
37:30myself because I know I need to forgive
37:32be able to forgive if I'm going to
37:34heal and I can't carry around
37:36resentments I can't carry around anger
37:39anger is perfectly normal emotion
37:42everybody experiences it but to hold
37:44onto it is very damaging and it can kill
37:47one and I know this and
37:50bitterness
37:52the death
37:54rate among Exon freze in the first
37:58couple of months after they released
38:00from prison is 12 times higher than it
38:02is in the normal
38:04population and that's
38:07because they have gone through such
38:09stress and train in the time they spent
38:12in prison which is Multiplied when they
38:16come out and find themselves an alien in
38:18the world outside with no help no inner
38:21help that they need and that creates its
38:24own stress and strain and that causes
38:27heart conditions and all sorts of
38:29conditions and they get ill and they die
38:31because part of that and the key element
38:33of that is the anger and bitterness they
38:35hold over what the system has done to
38:37them is not
38:39released and if it's not released it
38:41will kill us and there's nothing done to
38:43help them to release that there's no
38:45apology nobody apologizes to you for
38:48taking half your life away and and that
38:52it's such a a let down when you you're
38:55going to get out you're like just let me
38:57out of here that's all I need just let
38:58me out of here I'll take care of myself
39:00you know and then you get out and it's
39:03overwhelming and you find out that
39:06freedom isn't free like you know if you
39:09don't have money you can't even eat so
39:14and and you come out with no money
39:16nothing so and many of the uh guys are
39:20in so long that they don't have any
39:22family left anymore so there's there's
39:24there's nowhere to go there's no one to
39:26help help you and you end up struggling
39:29for your basic needs and it's so
39:32stressful and overwhelming that people
39:35they do they just they die and it's just
39:38it's terrible and there are now starting
39:40to be organizations that trying to help
39:43a person get a place to live and and
39:45maybe a car and of course you're
39:47basically unemployable because like you
39:50you know you don't learn any skills in
39:52there that that are marketable so you're
39:55living on this very B basic income and
39:57in the states what you get is far less
39:59than what you get here you really cannot
40:02live on it um so again it brings us back
40:06to the focus and the fact that you have
40:08always have a choice well you know I've
40:11heard you speak before and you talked
40:14about while you were in some of the
40:16healing had already started by doing
40:17yoga and that sort of thing but the
40:20other thing that I've heard you speak
40:22about maybe you could talk to the speak
40:24to this is uh how you sort of changed
40:27your mindset
40:29and can you talk about that yeah that's
40:31the choice first of all you have to
40:33realize that you have a choice okay I
40:36was sentenced to death I was put into
40:38this small cell six steps from the solid
40:41metal door to the toilet and I could
40:43reach out and my arms and touch both
40:45walls there was nothing in it but a a
40:48metal Shelf with a thin mattress a
40:50little pillow
40:53um that's all that's all it was was
40:56there I was allowed two books a Bible
40:59and a law book um I didn't get phone
41:02calls I didn't get in the beginning
41:04visits I didn't get I only got out of my
41:06cell two times a week for a brief shower
41:09and about 15 minutes outside in the
41:11courtyard with a guard who wouldn't
41:12speak to me taken back in and then it'
41:15be another three or four days till I got
41:16out again they would bring my food and
41:19slip it through a slot in the door
41:21without any communication with me
41:23whatsoever and that was that was it and
41:25I was supposed to just wait for them to
41:27decide when to take my life that was
41:30it until one day
41:33and to make this story very brief one
41:35day something I read in the Bible told
41:37me that they don't say when I die it's
41:39not up to
41:40them I wish I knew exactly what that was
41:44what I read but it I realized all of a
41:47sudden wait a minute you know like okay
41:50I can't leave the cell they can keep me
41:52here they can imprison my little body
41:54but they cannot imprison my my mind they
41:56cannot imprison my spirit they that the
41:59rest of me is still
42:01free and I have a choice in the time
42:04that's left to me be it long or be it
42:06short I can choose how I spend that time
42:09I do not have to spend the what might be
42:11the rest of my life in fear and misery
42:13and anger and confusion that's their
42:16story my story is that until they just
42:19realize that they made a mistake and
42:21send me home or for some reason of karma
42:24that I don't understand yet yet they do
42:27take my life until that point my life
42:30still belongs to me and I don't have to
42:32live it that way and in fact I realized
42:35that for the first time in my life I had
42:40servants didn't I didn't they cook for
42:43me bring me my food do my dishes do my
42:46laundry I had no bills to pay for
42:50electricity it was a perfect opportunity
42:53for me to do my spiritual work
42:56so that's what I decided and then they
42:59became my
43:00servants and instead of seeing them as
43:03the enemy was keeping me
43:06there it everything changed it was my
43:09perspective that changed that's all that
43:11changed but it changed the world so when
43:14they brought me my food I could say
43:16thank you very much because they were
43:18helping me and I would get my food and I
43:23would uh I I would think of all the
43:25beautiful things that I would serve my
43:27children when I got home and eat
43:28whatever it was and I would get up in
43:30the morning and do my yoga and my
43:32meditation and prayer because at that
43:34point in time I wasn't really sure there
43:36was God anymore because how could God
43:38let this happen to me and my whole
43:39family I had two small children when I
43:42was um convicted I had a 9-year-old son
43:44and a 10-month old
43:46daughter and so and my parents were were
43:50devastated by what happened um
43:53so I would do my yoga meditation ation
43:56and prayer because I also could choose
43:59whether or not there was God if there
44:00was no God my situation was just totally
44:03hopeless so I chose to Believe In Hope
44:05which meant God and I had a serious
44:07discussion and then I would do my
44:10prayers and um it it changed everything
44:14everything was changed um I no longer
44:17was angry I I could see them as Spirits
44:22here on their Journey as well and I
44:25actually did developed compassion for
44:27them because I wouldn't want to be spend
44:29every day keeping people locked up you
44:32know that would be a sad thing so it it
44:35just it became totally different um and
44:38I thought I had mastered forgiveness too
44:40but when I got out I realized I had a
44:42little more to go but we all do yeah
44:46yeah tell me what your vision was and is
44:50for the sunny Center oh and maybe you
44:53can explain to to the audience what that
44:56okay
44:59um before we met we each realized that
45:02something needed to be done to help
45:03people who come out of prison wrongly
45:05convicted because we had this it
45:07happened to both of us and then when we
45:09met and discussed it we decided we would
45:11uh host people and we were living in a
45:15little two-bedroom Cottage in conamar at
45:17the time and so we offered the we had
45:20exander G was one at a time stayed with
45:23us and that was it and then we were in
45:25New York and we met some people in New
45:27York some good people there and um over
45:29lunch one day the the host said to us uh
45:32tell tell these people what you do so we
45:34were telling them about this and someone
45:36said to us do you have a
45:38foundation no I didn't know what a
45:40foundation was because that's not a term
45:43you use in Ireland in Ireland you say a
45:45charity and I said what's the foundation
45:47and they told me I said no we don't oh
45:49we have you should have a foundation so
45:51they set it in motion and now we have a
45:54foundation which is registered in New
45:55York York 501c3 which is what they call
45:58it
45:59Foundation which means that any
46:01donations made to it can be tax
46:04deductible and so um and we have a board
46:07of
46:08directors and now we have a bigger house
46:11now we have a three-bedroom house on
46:12Suite all on suite and we can host two
46:15exies at a
46:17time um and that's what we do one or two
46:21as they come and sunny has a brilliant
46:23idea of establishing an air mes bank
46:27which so what we do there is you know
46:28business people and lawyers and do a lot
46:30of traveling in their time they don't
46:31worry about air mes they gather Air
46:33Miles all the time so we ask people to
46:36pledge their air miles to the sunny
46:38Center and they do and so when we need
46:41to bring in exy for example from the
46:42United States we contact one of these
46:45people we give them the details of the
46:47person and the flights we want and say
46:49will you book these flights for us
46:50please on your air M and they do and
46:52that's how we get them bring them over
46:53it's free and I meet them at the airport
46:56I bring them home and they stay with
46:58us um and in the time they're with us
47:01they're able to share their inner
47:04problems because they know we know where
47:07they're coming from they know we
47:09understand them because we've been there
47:11and they see us living H in a very um
47:15quiet loving caring environment where we
47:18have cats and dogs and hens and goats
47:21and inevitably what happens is one of
47:24the one one of them will
47:26find themselves attached to one of the
47:28animals and that's like their their
47:30their healing attachment and uh in time
47:35that they're with us they're able to dig
47:38into them Reach into themselves and
47:41bring healing to themselves we don't
47:42heal them they heal themselves and so
47:45when they go back to America they can go
47:47back not as an exonary or as an ex-
47:49prisoner but as somebody who's been on
47:51holidays in Ireland and um that's nice
47:54and they can live face their life in in
47:56a new way because you see they only see
47:58themselves when they come as being an
48:00next prisoner as an exonary and and they
48:02have no
48:03money it's difficult to understand the
48:06poverty that we've met I'll give you an
48:10example of two quick examples if I may
48:12one man that was with us uh we had to go
48:15to a wake and uh we said listen we have
48:18to go to a wake and he says what's awake
48:20and I explained it to him I said you're
48:22not no this he was from the inner city
48:24of Detroit I said do you not no but
48:27funerals there he said we don't have
48:29funerals I said what do you mean you
48:31don't have funerals what happens if one
48:32of your family dies oh we don't have
48:35money to bury people so we found the
48:37police we tell them somebody's died the
48:39police come to take away the body and
48:42they examine it and if it's a natural
48:44debt after about three weeks they write
48:46to the family and say the the remains of
48:49s so is now ready for
48:51burial but they can't afford to bury it
48:53so then the state bur cremates The
48:57Remains and that's it that's poverty
48:59even here in the time of the famine
49:01people were able to bury their
49:03dead but over there that's the way it is
49:06we have a man came only last year to us
49:09a lovely man 6'4 big tall black American
49:12man and uh he said to us
49:16um we ask everybody like is there any
49:19food you don't like to eat he said I'll
49:21eat anything he says I love vegetables I
49:22love my green vegetables so Sunny cooked
49:25a lovely meal and put it from him and he
49:26sat at the table and he picked that and
49:28what's wrong he's not eating it he says
49:30this is not the way I eat he
49:32said it transpired that he's on
49:36subsistence in America he gets food
49:39stamps so he goes to the cheapest store
49:41like Walmart and he buys the cheapest
49:43tins of food he can get and he lives out
49:46of tinned food and so if he sees tinned
49:50cabbage and it says contains vitamin B2
49:54or something like that he eatings that's
49:55healthy food and that's what he was
49:58living on and here I was giving him
50:00stuff from the G Fresh organic Fresh
50:05Living vegetables but he couldn't eat it
50:07because what he was used to was that
50:10poverty trap that he was stuck in he
50:13went away asking Sunny to give him her
50:15recipes and he was eating the best of
50:17food and also we discovered then he' no
50:20top teeth because he'd fallen off his
50:22bicycle and hit his head off the carb
50:24and brst all his teeth
50:26so we got him to a dentist it had been a
50:28year and that was a year previously he
50:30couldn't chew so we got him to the
50:32dentist we brought him in at half1 in
50:33the morning and the dent he walked out a
50:36top denture at 4:00 in the afternoon and
50:39the beautiful thing about that is when I
50:40went to pay the dentist said to me no
50:42Peter that's on me he says see I'd like
50:45that to be my contribution to the work
50:47you're doing that's really nice theion
50:49that we have for the center would really
50:52be that we would be able to to
50:57expand uh hopefully the fundraising
51:00would do a little better you know there
51:02are a number of um people that we met um
51:06through the play the exonerated which is
51:08another whole story but uh that have
51:11become friends of the center we're
51:13always looking for people to become
51:14friends of the center as volunteers or
51:17as donate donating air miles or um uh or
51:22as donors and um that we might be able
51:26to expand so that we could have Sunny
51:30centers all over the world you know like
51:34another one in America one he we have
51:36the one here um we've had um inquiries
51:40from India South Africa Italy and um ban
51:46so that um the exies that come to us
51:50might learn how what how to do what we
51:53do and then take the work further
51:58because we're sort of in the position of
52:00being mentors now we're older and that
52:05we know that there's only a limited time
52:06we can continue this work so we need
52:08other people to learn what we do and to
52:11be able to continue the work so we would
52:13hope that that's what would happen we're
52:16also trying to set up um like in in
52:19America there are there are clusters of
52:22exonar if I may use that term for
52:24example in different CI ities like me in
52:26D in Dallas and Texas there 35 exor in
52:30Dallas and Texas they've all organized
52:32themselves together but you're going to
52:33have a group of exies in Chicago and
52:36Boston and different places so we're
52:37trying to organize it so that we would
52:40arrange to have say weekend healing
52:44sessions that the exies would all come
52:47together with us and we would just work
52:50together that we can reach more people
52:53and um in order to do that we're setting
52:56it up so that we get speaking
52:58engagements in universities in those
53:00particular cities so that we get paid
53:02for do that and that would pay the
53:04expense of flying over to America and
53:06setting up this and doing this yeah
53:08isolation is a big problem huge
53:12H really bad problem uh poverty is
53:15another and uh in in many cases they're
53:18not able to get passports because either
53:22the process is overwhelming having to
53:24deal with with the authorities or
53:27there's something about their case
53:28that's not totally resolved and they're
53:30not able to get a passport yet um
53:33especially I think with the women um
53:36isolation is a a big problem uh when we
53:40were at the Innocence Project uh
53:43conference each year I've noticed that
53:47um the the women
53:49have even more particular difficulties
53:52than the men yeah yeah because often the
53:54cases involves the killing of a child
53:57and that stigma never goes away and
54:00that's another problem that all exies
54:02have to face is
54:04that at any time someone can always come
54:08up and say I don't believe you are
54:10really innocent yeah and that's that's
54:14just something you have to deal with I
54:16mean imagine the situation of um a young
54:20man 16 17 18 years of age who is wrongly
54:25accused of a rape and murder and locked
54:28up for maybe 20 to 25 30 years and then
54:32he's exonerated and he comes
54:34out no help whatsoever from the
54:36authorities no compensation pure
54:40poverty and we discovered this when he
54:42came to we've had this coming to
54:45us
54:46uh he's never had a relationship in his
54:50life he's now in his 50s we had one man
54:53who came and he had one relationship
54:55ship 54 years of age he had one
54:56relationship after he come out of
55:00prison he's
55:02scared he's terrified of trying to speak
55:06to a woman because what if he's accused
55:08again because what if he's wrongfully
55:10accused
55:12again it's already happened to him
55:14once to somebody that he didn't speak to
55:17I didn't even know so how does how do
55:20you talk with people how do you talk
55:22with a woman he doesn't know
55:26he's absolutely terrified so in that
55:30particular instance as it happened we
55:32take him with us we socialize we bring
55:34him socializing and and and he mixes we
55:36don't say this is so and so he's an exer
55:39we don't say this is so and so he spent
55:4030 years in prison we say this is our
55:42friend so who's visiting from America
55:45and he's accepted as that and then he
55:47begins to find himself having normal
55:50conversations with
55:52females and you see the way he's face
55:55changes and you see the way he's hold
55:56demeanor changes and he comes away like
55:59walking on air with hope that's what we
56:01do mostly we give hope he gets hope I'd
56:05say for the future what we do yeah yeah
56:08that it's possible and you see the thing
56:11is with the best will in the world their
56:14lawyers don't understand this their
56:17lawyers don't make any provision for
56:19this and they're left
56:21alone and to our amazement we couldn't
56:24believe this until we were actually told
56:25is we're the only Center of its kind in
56:29the whole wide world yeah yeah so there
56:34you go any
56:37questions for the way you're able to
56:40forgive import be able to move on thank
56:44you yeah it's
56:45essential and it was also the Legacy I
56:47wanted to leave to my children who then
56:49who grew up without me um is that for
56:53because they had
56:55an they had issues as well and
56:58forgiveness was essential for their
57:00healing too and I think that you you
57:02haven't said this specifically but one
57:04of the things that I think is also
57:06remarkable about your vision for the
57:08sunny Center is that it's not just for
57:10exies that you welcome people's families
57:13as well because yes absolutely this
57:15isn't an issue that just impacts the
57:17person who's wrongfully convicted it
57:19impacts you know the children the
57:23siblings the friends I mean it impacts
57:27the damage is enormous yes we've
57:29actually indiv on separate occasions
57:32we've hosted two
57:33lawyers two human rights lawyers who
57:35were each individual were facing
57:38bornout from working with these cases
57:40from the working with the cases that
57:41were and were so emotionally disturbed
57:44they said can we
57:45come we said yeah sure they they need a
57:48little boost of Hope
57:50too you
57:52see people sometimes say was I don't
57:56know how you got through that I'd never
57:57be able to get through that you know
57:59which we we know is not so and the whole
58:02point here is is that every one of you
58:05here at some times in your life already
58:08has faced some desperate situation which
58:12you didn't think at the time you could
58:13manage or if you haven't you will do be
58:16sure of that before you pass away there
58:18will come a time in your life that
58:19you'll have to face something which at
58:21the time you'll think is not possible
58:23for you to deal with
58:25but if you can only realize that within
58:28yourself in here each individual has the
58:31capacity to deal with whatever is put in
58:33front of
58:34them and if you can reach into that
58:36depth within yourself you can deal with
58:38whatever it is you're faced
58:41with that's great and come out the
58:44better for yeah yeah any other questions
58:47there's a question if you were to meet
58:49somebody just as they being senten and
58:52knew they were innocent that's the say
58:55to them because I know both of you would
58:56have been in that position probably the
58:59one thing you would have likeed to
59:00somebody say to you you like
59:02to that's a good question if if you met
59:06someone who's just being sentenced and
59:08you knew that they were being wrongfully
59:11convicted what advice would you have for
59:13them what would you tell them to help
59:17them that's a tough
59:20one I would say I would say never give
59:23don't give up no that's that's that's a
59:25must you don't give up you have to be
59:28stubborn but to make sure that you
59:31nurture
59:33yourself don't let them destroy you you
59:36know and don't expect an in
59:39instant response get comfortable CU it's
59:43a
59:44long you might need some patience and
59:47says if you're going to get a lawyer get
59:49a young
59:51lawyer yeah because it could take so
59:53long you're lawyer pass away old age it
59:57happened to me too it happened to Sunny
59:59it did oh God yeah did somebody else
1:00:03have a question over there
1:00:08yeah I think would have crossed your
1:00:10mind does it do you ever have to think
1:00:13about what exactly did I do when your
1:00:17mind goes back do you get to think of is
1:00:19the way I thinking of the day
1:00:23before before
1:00:25like why why me kind of thing what did I
1:00:27do day before who did I speak to what
1:00:31them to decide person what did I do
1:00:34wrong how did you handle that yeah the
1:00:37question is like would you question
1:00:40yourself and say what did I do to to for
1:00:43this to for them to focus on me or for
1:00:45this to happen to me um I think
1:00:47everybody does that you're right
1:00:50everybody thinks why why did this happen
1:00:52to me you know and you there something
1:00:55particularly you did that made them to
1:00:58I'm just trying to think was it was
1:01:00there something you could actually point
1:01:02to think that maybe it's because I did
1:01:04it as I was well in the in the process
1:01:07of forgiveness I it was the most
1:01:09difficult one to forgive was myself
1:01:12because I felt that I made some very
1:01:14stupid foolish decisions you know that
1:01:17maybe put me in a position for this to
1:01:20occur uh and you blame yourself nothing
1:01:23that I did made this happen but you say
1:01:28well if I only had been smart or if I
1:01:30had only you know said this or done that
1:01:33or or gone somewhere else or or or or
1:01:36gone back to school or whatever you you
1:01:39do tend to blame yourself but but that's
1:01:42kind of a trap because in in all of
1:01:44these cases that I know of the person
1:01:46really it could have been
1:01:48anyone you know right so you do tend to
1:01:53fault yourself uh like the man who uh
1:01:56Peter was talking about was wrongly
1:01:58convicted of the rape and
1:02:00murder he thinks that if if if only
1:02:05maybe he had been more um aware of what
1:02:09was going on around him maybe he could
1:02:10have um prevented the woman from being
1:02:13killed he he he didn't he hardly knew
1:02:15her she was just an acquaintance but he
1:02:19he feels oh maybe if I had been more
1:02:21alert and more had together in my life
1:02:24maybe I would have been able to help
1:02:26this woman and she wouldn't have been in
1:02:27that position so now he tries to help
1:02:29every woman that that is uh having
1:02:32difficulty you know that because it's
1:02:34his mission in life now because but but
1:02:36it's not his fault at all he did nothing
1:02:39he did nothing wrong but it it it stays
1:02:42with you maybe if I had done something
1:02:44different but but the fact is that it it
1:02:47didn't depend on anything that we did it
1:02:50was all just a matter of circumstances
1:02:53that you were
1:02:55easy my situation was
1:02:58different um they picked on me because I
1:03:02had a political background because I had
1:03:04been a political activist from the time
1:03:06I was a
1:03:07teenager I had been interned in the Cor
1:03:10in from 1957 to 59 without charge or
1:03:12trial so uh they considered me a
1:03:15subversive the guy they were chasing got
1:03:17away from them and they needed
1:03:20closure so they picked me up and frame
1:03:22me that brought closure so the media
1:03:25couldn't there was an investigative
1:03:26journalist was beginning to uncover the
1:03:28fact that there was a cover up over what
1:03:31actually happened at the scene of the
1:03:33crimes and um they had to get closure to
1:03:38stop him and so they picked me up and he
1:03:41actually sent word to me in the prison
1:03:43about this before my trial and then
1:03:46recently this is very interesting too
1:03:48because like in the case of har gleon
1:03:50that you know uh in temporary way back
1:03:5372 whatever ever it was years ago um it
1:03:56was exactly 75 years ago today that
1:03:59Harry gleon was hanged so it's very
1:04:02appropriate that we have this and today
1:04:04is also the anniversary of the last
1:04:06hanging in Ireland what was that 42
1:04:09years ago yeah but anyway to come back
1:04:12to this uh and
1:04:14so recently I met somebody from the
1:04:17district where the Collision happened
1:04:19and the shooting happened and everything
1:04:21else and they told me that every every
1:04:24body in the area knew there was a cover
1:04:26up
1:04:27oh everybody locally knew there was a
1:04:30cover up and everybody locally knew that
1:04:34I wasn't one of
1:04:36them but you see Ordinary People in the
1:04:39streets so the speak are not listen to
1:04:41and they don't have the power unless
1:04:43they speak out and they were afraid to
1:04:45speak out because if they speak out
1:04:47maybe they'd pick on them
1:04:49yeah so that's the way it works with
1:04:52police power but you do wonder why me
1:04:56you know why if there's something I
1:04:58could have done differently that maybe
1:05:01it wouldn't have been
1:05:02me
1:05:04uh answer that question when I was
1:05:06taking my case on my own behalf because
1:05:08I had to make prepare my own case in the
1:05:10in the from the prison because I had no
1:05:12lawyers no money and I was up in the
1:05:14high court and I was being brought up to
1:05:15the cell and there was a police office
1:05:18the G inspector who was in charge of
1:05:20security he was walking along beside me
1:05:21and he says to me what are you looking
1:05:24for here what's going on here I said I'm
1:05:25look going to have my conviction
1:05:26question he says are you saying you're
1:05:28innocent I said yeah H so we're walking
1:05:31along and he said but why would they
1:05:32pick on you I said the only reason I
1:05:34know is that because I have a republican
1:05:37background I was in turn in the ' 50s oh
1:05:40yeah that's good enough reason he
1:05:42said he's an inspector in the
1:05:44police well like let's say a lot of the
1:05:47people who um uh become victims of this
1:05:53wrongful conviction thing were on drugs
1:05:56MH okay so you could say they could
1:05:58fault themselves and say if I wasn't on
1:06:00drugs maybe this wouldn't have happened
1:06:03to me and that might be true but that
1:06:05doesn't excuse what happened no you know
1:06:08it you
1:06:10somehow become a victim you know but it
1:06:13it's so easy it's so easy you know a
1:06:17mental illness can make you a victim uh
1:06:20drug addiction can make you a victim
1:06:22poverty can make you a victim victim and
1:06:25often it's just being marginalized in
1:06:27some way you know marginalization in
1:06:30some way yeah also and and things have
1:06:33slightly improved especially with the
1:06:35social media people are becoming more
1:06:37conscious because I was reading about
1:06:39Michael Manny and the last man that was
1:06:40executed in Ireland only reading about
1:06:42him today and um there was a history of
1:06:46uh mental illness in his family mhm but
1:06:50the judge didn't wouldn't allow this to
1:06:51be brought out in the court yeah yeah
1:06:53and he was
1:06:56executed a question over there that kind
1:06:59of like move forward with your firstand
1:07:02experience what would you for reform of
1:07:05the systems it seems like there's cracks
1:07:08in the systems with the
1:07:12prosecutor to move to move forward in
1:07:15the system and fix things well I would
1:07:18say uh first of all
1:07:20accountability is really important I
1:07:22would say second of all is um the public
1:07:26the public needs to let it be known what
1:07:29they want we want a justice system
1:07:32that's just not just results yeah right
1:07:35it's just us you want Justice that's
1:07:39that's it's us so you we have to make it
1:07:42known that we don't want just want
1:07:44results we want our society to be better
1:07:48we don't just want punishment we want uh
1:07:52a focus more on on Rehabilitation so
1:07:55that we can find the person and and also
1:07:58prevention I think there's not enough
1:08:01focus and money going into prevention um
1:08:04in in the in the in the elementary level
1:08:07of school everybody knows the kids that
1:08:10are going to get in trouble everybody
1:08:12knows the kids that are having a
1:08:14terrible home life or that are on drugs
1:08:17or that are having mental problems
1:08:19everybody knows and it's up to us to to
1:08:23to deal with that to put more effort
1:08:25into preventing these things from
1:08:27happening rather than using fear and
1:08:30Punishment and and making us think that
1:08:33that's going to make things better
1:08:34because it obviously hasn't so I think
1:08:38because you both SP such huge amount of
1:08:40time in prison was there ever like
1:08:42almost a Breaking Point you
1:08:44obviously was there ever a breaking
1:08:46point where you just have to sit down
1:08:47and say no one's ever going to find out
1:08:50to do this and if there was that's like
1:08:51a Breaking Point have you recover
1:08:54especially while you're
1:08:58still
1:09:00no well at the very beginning Peter when
1:09:03they said you your sentence uh at first
1:09:06um that was I think one of those at
1:09:08first um after my sentence was commuted
1:09:1140 years I was um without any
1:09:15possibility of remission or a parole and
1:09:18I was put back into the general prison
1:09:19population after a couple of days when
1:09:21that novelty wore off I kind of got into
1:09:24a bit of Despair and I said to myself oh
1:09:27s this you know so I just didn't get out
1:09:29of bed and I stay in my bed in the cell
1:09:32and I stayed in my bed in the cell for
1:09:34four days five
1:09:35days and nothing happened and then I
1:09:38realized that they just leave me there
1:09:40in the bed for 5 days nobody's going to
1:09:41do anything and if I was going to do
1:09:43anything I had to do it myself so I got
1:09:45up out of bed and I cleaned my cell and
1:09:46I washed got went to the laundry and
1:09:48washed all my clothes and decided I was
1:09:50going to prove my innocence and that was
1:09:51it you know but
1:09:58there were times I wasn't sure I was
1:09:59going to
1:10:01win but I was going to
1:10:04try because there's one thing about it
1:10:06like it's like Sonny says about the Deb
1:10:08penalty we may not succeed in abolishing
1:10:11the de penalty globally In Our Lifetime
1:10:15but it won't be for the want of trying
1:10:16that's
1:10:17right I had I I had a time like that
1:10:23because
1:10:25after my sentence after the first five
1:10:27years when I was sentenced to death my
1:10:29sentence was changed from Death to
1:10:31life and oh it was such a relief you can
1:10:35imagine my not for me but my parents you
1:10:39know and so they um decided they could
1:10:43finally feel comfortable to take a
1:10:45vacation that didn't include bringing
1:10:47the children to prison and
1:10:50they went on vacation but the plane
1:10:53crashed and they were
1:10:56killed and that definitely was the worst
1:10:59day of my
1:11:01life but it meant that there was no one
1:11:04outside anymore to help me to make sure
1:11:07that I had a lawyer or
1:11:10anything and that at that point I didn't
1:11:15know uh what would happen to me that was
1:11:17just it was starting to look
1:11:21bad but there was a a lawyer that lived
1:11:25in their town that helped me with their
1:11:27burial and with my children and you know
1:11:30because they had to be put into foster
1:11:32care and um he became a friend and he
1:11:36found me an appeals lawyer that would
1:11:40work for free and that's the one I was
1:11:43talking about where get a young lawyer
1:11:45this guy wasn't that old he was in his
1:11:47mid 40s but he ended up dying of a heart
1:11:50attack before my appeal was through and
1:11:53and he had two Young Apprentice lawyers
1:11:56working under him and they took up my
1:11:58case and that's the only reason that I'm
1:12:02I'm free there's that and and dear
1:12:05friends who wouldn't let go of me um so
1:12:09at that point I really wasn't
1:12:12sure if it would ever be resolved
1:12:15because there was no one to help me
1:12:17anymore
1:12:19but again I I realized that no matter
1:12:23where I am I have a
1:12:26choice and I decided I would make the
1:12:29best possible life that I could within
1:12:31the prison I taught
1:12:34um uh reading to people who were uh it's
1:12:40a special kind of illiteracy like
1:12:42dyslexic no it's like you can read like
1:12:44stop signs and stuff but you know they
1:12:47can't really read I so I taught reading
1:12:50I taught mathematics I taught yoga to
1:12:53people to help them with their stress um
1:12:56we lifers started a little group like a
1:12:59a chamber of commerce you know so we
1:13:03could you know we could try to improve
1:13:05conditions
1:13:07um and we did what we could we start we
1:13:10made little family units I kind of
1:13:12adopted some of the very young they were
1:13:14sentencing 14-year-old children to life
1:13:17and prison in Florida at the time so a
1:13:20couple of them became like my kids an
1:13:22older lady became like my mom you know
1:13:25and you make a life I mean so I I
1:13:29decided that whether I got out or I
1:13:31never got
1:13:32out I would be okay with myself and I
1:13:35would make the best like life I could
1:13:38and and so that's what I decided to do
1:13:40so it would have been okay for me either
1:13:42way of course I really hoped it would be
1:13:44this way but but if it wasn't then it
1:13:47would be okay and so that's how I
1:13:49managed it but that was my moment you
1:13:52know then
1:13:55well may I just say something about the
1:13:57question that lady was asking there
1:13:58earlier I wanted to come into it um the
1:14:02thing to remember about the justice
1:14:06system and the injustices within it is
1:14:09that it's all operated in your
1:14:13name they do it in our
1:14:17names and if the public are prepared to
1:14:20allow them do it the wrong way then so
1:14:22be it that's the it is but if the public
1:14:25are are prepared to speak up for
1:14:27justice to be heard for
1:14:30justice it can change and it will
1:14:36change well I think that's a great note
1:14:38to end this evening and I want to thank
1:14:41you guys it's been truly inspirational
1:14:45and insightful and thank you so much for
1:14:47joining us tonight thank you an for
1:14:49having
1:14:52us
1:15:00was a
1:15:01pleasure I put the comfortable
1:15:04[Laughter]
1:15:22chairs

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