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Andrew Huberman: You Must Control Your Dopamine! The Shocking Truth Behind Cold Showers! — Transcript

by The Diary Of A CEO · 47,020 words · 7,321 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00I'll tear up if I talk about it, because
0:02things were going well in my life and
0:03then one day just crack,
0:06everything came crashing down.
0:09And um
0:13and I've learned that friendship is
0:14super powerful. I had people descending
0:17on my home to be with me. You know, one
0:19day I just like look up and Lex is in
0:21the room. And they sat with me, picked
0:23me up and they reminded me who I am
0:27and um
0:30you know, I I've just such immense
0:31gratitude for that.
0:37Dr. Andrew Huberman is a world-renowned
0:39neuroscientist, Stanford professor, and
0:41podcaster.
0:42Revolutionizing how we understand the
0:44brain
0:44and how we can adopt change, break bad
0:46habits, and achieve peak performance.
0:49Growing up, I was scared, depressed, and
0:51confused. My parents split up, I was
0:53getting in multiple fights, found myself
0:55locked up in this residential treatment
0:57program, and I realized that I need to
0:59take control of my life. I'm so
1:00intrigued by that because so many people
1:02feel stuck in their lives. So, how does
1:04someone even make those life-changing
1:05decisions? Well, there are so many
1:07zero-cost tools that can change your
1:09brain. We can go through all of them.
1:11So, I want to talk about dopamine and
1:13this graph.
1:14The dopamine is kind of like a wave
1:15pool. In every domain of life, whether
1:18or not it's food, exercise, for some
1:19people it's work or sex, if you push
1:22things to the max, you're going to feel
1:24depleted and understimulated afterwards
1:27and you need so much more energy to get
1:29the same output. And when you're in that
1:31dopamine-depleted state, typically what
1:32people do is they try and access things
1:35that are going to reactivate the
1:37dopamine circuitry and all it does is
1:38drive them further and further into that
1:41trough.
1:41So, how do you fix that? So, it's hard
1:43to exit, but start with
1:48This is a sentence I never thought I'd
1:50say in my life. Um we've just hit 7
1:52million subscribers on YouTube and I
1:53want to say a huge thank you to all of
1:55you that show up here every Monday and
1:57Thursday to watch our conversations. Um
2:00From the bottom of my heart, but also on
2:02behalf of my team, who you don't always
2:03get to meet. There's almost 50 people
2:05now behind The Diary of a CEO that work
2:07to put this together. So, from all of
2:09us, thank you so much. Um we did a
2:11raffle last month and we gave away
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2:14show up until 7 million subscribers and
2:16you guys loved that raffle so much that
2:18we're going to continue it. So, every
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2:22money-can't-buy prizes including
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2:25and 1,000 lb gift vouchers to anyone
2:28that subscribes to The Diary of a CEO.
2:30There's now more than 7 million of you.
2:31So, if you make the decision to
2:32subscribe today, you can be one of those
2:34lucky people. Thank you from the bottom
2:35of my heart. Let's get to the
2:37conversation.
2:41Andrew, at the very heart of what you
2:43do, at the very, very high. If I If I
2:45look to all that you've produced and I
2:47had to encapsulate it into just
2:50one or two sentences that encapsulates
2:52your mission statement, what would that
2:54be?
2:55I want to share the beauty and utility
2:59biology. I want people to understand how
3:01incredible the human body and brain are
3:06and how even a small understanding of
3:09the underlying mechanisms about how we
3:12interact with light or temperature,
3:14exercise,
3:15thoughts, emotions, etc., how that can
3:18impact our health in really powerful
3:20ways. You have become a cultural
3:22phenomenon because of the
3:24information that you've shared.
3:27In your view, why and how is that
3:29happened? I I guess maybe most
3:30importantly, why has that happened? What
3:31is it that you've kind of catered to
3:33that was absent in people's
3:35understanding of themselves?
3:37Well, I think
3:39people are intensely curious about
3:42themselves, meaning our species, why we
3:45feel the way we feel, why other people
3:47feel and act the way they do, and I
3:49think most everybody, I like to think,
3:52is deeply interested in how to be the
3:54best version of themselves and I think
3:56what I've done is I've provided a lens
3:59into all of that through biology,
4:03through neuroscience in particular,
4:05but also I'm a practitioner. So, since I
4:09was pretty young, I've been actively
4:10involved in sports and psychology and
4:14interested in
4:16what one can do, in some cases take,
4:19things to avoid in order to be the best
4:22version of oneself. And so, um
4:26I'm an academic, right? I
4:28have a laboratory and I'm a tenured
4:30faculty member at Stanford. Although, I
4:32should mention that I've shrunk my
4:33laboratory considerably in the last year
4:35or so, but I've done experiments on
4:37animal models, on humans and human
4:40clinical trials. So, I have the
4:41understanding and expertise of a of a
4:43research scientist.
4:45And at the same time, I think very
4:48deeply about
4:49how to translate the information in
4:51these peer-reviewed papers, how to
4:53translate the information in the fields
4:56of science and medicine into actionable,
4:57what we call protocols. And my best to
5:01um distill things down into
5:03uh you know, actionable things,
5:06um
5:06but I'm not a big believer in dumbing
5:08things down. I decided to go the
5:10opposite way. Rather than give little
5:11snippets, um 90-second videos, we
5:13include those, but rather I decided to
5:16go for full one-to-three-hour, maybe
5:18even four-hour lectures on a topic
5:20because I believe, and I'm not the first
5:21to say it, that people have um near
5:24infinite ability to learn if they are
5:27told things in a way that's clear. So, I
5:29believe that people want to understand,
5:31they can understand, and it doesn't
5:33require decorating things in a lot of
5:36complicated language. Sometimes we need
5:37to include some complicated language
5:39just because that's the way science and
5:41medicine are, and that people are
5:43willing to learn that and carry that
5:45along and once they understand how they
5:47work a little bit better, you arm them
5:48with a little bit of knowledge, then
5:51really they're just off to the races and
5:52the the rest takes care of itself. I may
5:55a couple of times today just ask you to
5:57explain something to me in more simple
5:59terms because I don't have fundamental
6:01understanding of of science. So,
6:03um
6:04much of my objective is just to if if is
6:06just to be completely honest if I don't
6:08understand something because I'm sure
6:09there's a lot of people listening that
6:10also probably don't understand
6:11something. One of the things that was
6:13most surprising to me about you was
6:18your background.
6:19And I think
6:20the interesting thing about your
6:22background and where you came from and
6:24the the struggles you faced and
6:26in contrast to the man that sits in
6:28front of me today is it I think it
6:30speaks to one of the fundamental
6:32points of curiosity that I have about
6:34your work, which is it's all well and
6:36good knowing protocols,
6:38but
6:39there's something else required to be
6:41able to pursue them.
6:43Now, people say that this is discipline
6:45or motivation or whatever it might be,
6:47but when I looked at your background and
6:48where you've come from, it wasn't a
6:50straight line.
6:52There's no There's an element of
6:53transformation that's gone on there.
6:54There's There's almost
6:57the early Andrew Huberman, who I would
6:59never would have guessed would have been
7:00the man that is is almost unrecognizable
7:02from the man sitting in front of me
7:03today, and then there's the man sitting
7:05in front of me today.
7:06And the reason I'm so fascinated by that
7:08is because if I can understand how you
7:09went from
7:10that Andrew Huberman to this one, it
7:13gives me it liberates me from the
7:15excuses that I won't be able to pursue
7:16your protocols now.
7:18Yeah, well certainly there's been a lot
7:20of
7:21adventure and transformation, certainly
7:24some hardship. Listen, I I'll be the
7:25first to say, you know, my life has been
7:28easier than it has been for others and
7:30harder than it has been for others,
7:31right? So, I'm not trying to plant a
7:32flag as having had the hardest or the
7:34easiest life. I only know
7:36um
7:37what's my experience, right? So, all
7:39I've got is my experience, my knowledge,
7:41and my words uh to convey that. But
7:44yeah, it was not a linear path. I would
7:46say the kind of key milestones along the
7:49way and the the the relevant pieces are
7:53for as long as I can remember, I've
7:55always had an intense curiosity and an
7:57intense desire for adventure. Um so, I
8:00want to learn and I want to learn
8:01first-hand.
8:03I also suppose I've always had an
8:05intensity. Like I I've um been told
8:08since I was a young kid, you know, I I
8:09sort of like forward-leaning a little
8:11bit. Uh you know, forward center of
8:12mass, so to speak.
8:14Um But yeah, my childhood on the one
8:17hand was very conventional and and very
8:19sweet in the sense that, you know, I had
8:21two parents. My dad's actually a
8:22scientist. He's a theoretical physicist
8:24by training. He's Argentine, uh but then
8:26did his graduate training in the United
8:28States. My mother's uh a writer and she
8:30was a teacher. She didn't work a whole
8:31lot when we were kids. She was mostly
8:32focused on raising us. And my childhood,
8:35to my memory, was marked by, you know,
8:37dinners together at the table. I was
8:39very, very interested in all things
8:40biology, in particular fish. So, all
8:43things aquaria, birds, anything that,
8:45you know, tropical birds. I I would
8:47learn all about them, learn about fish.
8:49I would then lecture about these things
8:51in class on Monday as a way to try the
8:54teachers to try and get me to not talk
8:56to students around me because I'd be
8:57telling them about it otherwise. So,
8:59I've been giving little lectures since I
9:00was a kid. And
9:02and then I suppose
9:04as I matured, um so to speak, um
9:07you know, around adolescence, my parents
9:10split up. It was a very high-conflict
9:11divorce. Um and that sent me uh in the
9:15direction of more kind of a wilder
9:18foraging, and let's call it that. I was
9:19a bit feral.
9:20Um just the the circumstance led to a
9:24situation where I was seeking out sports
9:25and friends for which there wasn't any
9:28parental involvement. So, for me, the
9:30immediate attraction was to
9:31skateboarding and punk rock culture. And
9:33so, I was very fortunate that I was
9:35drawn into skateboarding and punk rock
9:37culture in the late '80s, early '90s.
9:39I'm 49 now, or almost 49. And at that
9:42time, that was a very nascent culture.
9:45There was no X Games, there were no
9:46major sponsors, that sort of thing. And
9:48so, there were all these not parentless,
9:50but rather feral kids. Some were
9:51parentless. And I got to be exposed to
9:54some I'm skateboarding. And I was not a
9:57particularly good skateboarder, but I
9:59certainly had the drive to try and do
10:01it. I kept hurting myself. So, that was
10:02actually an important event. I kept, you
10:05know, hurting my body trying to push
10:06myself to get really good. Friends of
10:08mine were getting sponsored. Close
10:09friend of mine got picked up as a pro
10:11while we were in high school. We were
10:13traveling, going to contest. What you
10:15probably might have noticed is there
10:16wasn't a lot of attending school. So, I
10:18don't recommend this to young people.
10:20Stay in school. At least at the early
10:21stage, get that basic education while
10:23your brain is still hyperplastic. But,
10:26you know, I was exposed to and
10:28fortunately did not partake in a lot of
10:30drugs and violence, but I saw that. I
10:32also saw a lot of incredible
10:33skateboarding. Some of these people went
10:34on to
10:36um start huge companies and do
10:38incredible things in the realm of action
10:40sports. So, like DC. Um I know the guys
10:43that started that. Danny Way, Colin
10:45McKay. You know, I like I knew at that
10:47time um I knew of, I wasn't close with,
10:50but you know, Tony Hawk, watched his
10:51ascent, right? He was a few years ahead
10:53of me. Um but I would attend contest
10:56skating contest. So, I was in this world
10:59where it was all DIY. It was all
11:00self-created. Now, at some point, I got
11:03a girlfriend and um got into other
11:05things um
11:07and kind of left skateboarding. Um
11:09thought I might be a firefighter for a
11:10little while. I was always very
11:11physical. What age is this?
11:13Um so, I was 16 when I got my first
11:16girlfriend and um
11:19I wasn't doing well in skateboarding. I
11:21kept breaking my foot. Um people were
11:23moving on without me. That's just the
11:25nature of it. I was in love with her,
11:27wanted to spend time with her, and so I
11:28thought, "Well, I'm not really doing
11:30well in school. I'm not really attending
11:32school. I know I'll need to work and
11:34take care of us." You know, I was really
11:35thinking kind of like an adult at that
11:36point in terms of what I would do. And
11:38so, I thought I'd get into the fire
11:39service. So, I started trying to
11:41strengthen my body. I started doing
11:43resistance training. Keep in mind back
11:45then, the only people that lifted
11:46weights were, you know, preseason
11:48American football players, people going
11:50to the military, and bodybuilders. And I
11:52wasn't interested in any of those three
11:54things. But, I started doing resis-
11:56resistance training
11:57um and realized, "Wow, like this is a
12:00really powerful tool. I can make my body
12:02stronger through work." I could I
12:04couldn't do a single pull-up when I
12:05started. I was always pretty skinny. I,
12:07you know, shot up uh a full foot in
12:10height, but was very, very skinny, you
12:12know, at that point. And um
12:15within, you know, a summer I could do
12:16pull-ups. I could do these things. I
12:17thought, "Wow, like there's this
12:19remarkable relationship between doing
12:21physical effort and kind of ability or
12:23outcome." And then I also started
12:25running a lot. For whatever reason, I
12:27ran cross country my senior year of high
12:29school.
12:30And also there I felt like there was a
12:32direct relationship between effort and
12:34outcome. If I ran further, then the next
12:36time I could run even further. If my
12:37lungs burned on a hill run, well, then
12:39the next time I could do that hill
12:40without my lungs burning. Whereas in
12:42skateboarding, no matter how hard I
12:43seemed to try, I just couldn't match the
12:46level of effort with the outcome. So, it
12:48was from that point forward that you
12:50know, 16 years old forward that I made
12:52running and resistance training just
12:54part of my regular weekly schedule. Um
12:57what ended up happening was she went off
12:59to college.
13:01I ended up just basically living in my
13:04car or her dorm room
13:06while she was off at college. She was a
13:08year ahead of me. And I realized I
13:10wanted to be near her. So, eventually I
13:11applied to college and somehow got in.
13:14By the end of my freshman year, I had
13:17been getting in multiple fights. So, I
13:19was still had that kind of wildness from
13:22the world I was previously in. I was
13:24getting into physical altercations. I
13:26was never into drugs or alcohol. That
13:28was fortunate. I don't have a propensity
13:31to be addicted to those things. But, my
13:33life really wasn't in order. And it was
13:35really it was actually nearly 30 years
13:37ago to the day. It was
13:39July 4th, 1994. I went to a barbecue. I
13:43got into an altercation with a bunch of
13:45people that were robbing the house that
13:48we were at.
13:49Um
13:50and and by the way, there's sort of a
13:51little tangent side story. One of my um
13:54friends in college, we weren't super
13:55close, but my girlfriend at the time had
13:58lived with the now wife of Jack Johnson,
14:01the musician. So, Jack recalls that
14:03party. Uh we have other friends from
14:05that party. That was a kind of a a
14:06meaningful day for me because I got into
14:09this altercation. Everything turned out
14:11okay
14:12um in the sense that, you know, we got
14:14our belongings back. No one was badly
14:16hurt. But, I remember going back to the
14:17place where I was staying at that time
14:18and thinking to myself, "Okay, this is
14:20bad." Right? Um you know, like 19 years
14:23old.
14:25Or I guess it was just shy of of of 18.
14:28I am
14:30not doing well in school. My freshman
14:33year was a disaster where I went to
14:35college. I don't think I flunked out,
14:37but I it just wasn't really attending
14:39class. I wasn't doing well. I'm getting
14:41in physical altercations. I'm working at
14:43this little bagel shop delivering
14:45bagels. And there's nothing wrong with
14:46that, but it's not much of a future in
14:48it for me. Um I didn't end up going to
14:51the fire service. I didn't end up a
14:52professional athlete. I thought like,
14:54"What am I going to do with like what am
14:55I going to do?" Right? Because the story
14:57of whatever happened to me prior to that
14:59was kind of meaningless unless I made
15:01something of myself. So, that day I
15:03actually wrote myself and my parents a
15:05letter saying that I was going to turn
15:07my life around. And I actually still
15:09have this letter. My mother still has
15:10this letter. And what I decided to do
15:12was to take a leave of absence from
15:14university. I didn't drop out. A leave
15:16of absence allows you the option to go
15:17back. I moved home and I worked. So, I
15:21was a busboy at a little restaurant in
15:23town where I grew up. And I still
15:26continued to run and do resistance
15:28training, you know, three times a week
15:29each or so. And I went to community
15:32college, which is um
15:34typically where kids who can't afford to
15:35go to university or kids that just stay
15:38back for whatever reason. It's a
15:40wonderful aspect of the the um
15:42educational system in California still.
15:45And I made learning and filling my mind
15:51with formal, rigorous coursework-based
15:53knowledge my absolute mission. Now, I
15:56didn't care if I liked it. I just It's
15:59like, "I'm going to trust my ability to
16:01learn." Because I could tell you a lot
16:02about tropical fish, skateboarding, punk
16:04rock music, a fair amount about physical
16:07training at that point. I sought out the
16:09right people. This has always been
16:10something I've been good at is seeking
16:12out the right people with knowledge. So,
16:13I got great knowledge from the late Mike
16:15Mentzer, who had trained Dorian Yates.
16:17Um I was reading every book I could on
16:20physical fitness and rehabilitation,
16:21trying to get my body strong. Um never
16:24wanted to be big. You know, I was always
16:26interested in being strong and being
16:27able to run far and fast. That was
16:29always a goal, like a capability. I I've
16:31not been one of the um
16:33people to like really care about like
16:35hypertrophy. That wasn't something that
16:37mattered to me. If some came along as a
16:39consequence of training, great. But, it
16:40was more about a a capability to do
16:42things. So, at that point, I just became
16:44a voracious learner. I took every bit of
16:47energy that I had applied to these other
16:48areas and put them into learning math,
16:54science, art history, English,
16:57literature, whatever, you know,
16:59coursework was thrown at me. And then
17:01after a year of that, went back to
17:02university, lived alone in a studio
17:05apartment, and
17:07basically for the remaining portion of
17:09university, all I did was
17:13study, work out, hang out with my
17:15girlfriend,
17:16run, listen to
17:19at that time, like early '90s punk rock
17:21music, which is still a wonderful genre.
17:23So, mainly like Rancid, Operation Ivy,
17:26Bob Dylan, always love Bob Dylan,
17:28classical music when I study,
17:30and that was it. I didn't do anything
17:33else. And at that point, I started
17:36getting straight A's. People didn't
17:37recognize me. They were like, "Aren't
17:39you the guy from freshman year that was
17:40getting in all these fights?" I will
17:42admit that I wasn't um completely devoid
17:44of of uh the typical college um
17:47phenotype. Once a month, I would allow
17:48myself to go out to a party and I'd
17:51party once a month. But, stayed away
17:53from drugs, was never never my thing.
17:56And um so, drank, which, you know,
17:58eventually I realized wasn't my thing
18:00either. But, I was just completely
18:03committed. So, I graduated university
18:06with honors. I went to graduate school,
18:08did a master's up at UC Berkeley.
18:11Um then did my PhD, did my postdoc at
18:13Stanford, and then eventually got a
18:14laboratory um
18:16first at UC San Diego, excellent
18:18neuroscience program. Eventually was
18:20recruited to Stanford uh with tenure.
18:23And all along maintaining physical
18:25fitness in the background, focusing very
18:27heavily on doing primary research,
18:29meaning making discoveries in
18:30neuroscience, and publishing papers. And
18:33then in 2019,
18:36I decided to start posting science on
18:38Instagram. Just really nerdy stuff. Um
18:42no protocols, just telling people about
18:43sunlight and the relationship to the
18:45eye, dopamine, and ex- I just
18:48enjoyed talking about it just like I did
18:49when I was a little kid, telling people
18:50about tropical fish.
18:52And in 2020, my plan was to release a
18:56book. So, I got a guy, a PR guy. His
19:00name is Rob Moore. He's now a close
19:02friend of mine. And we're talking about
19:04how we would, you know, I don't know,
19:06maybe go on podcasts or do something of
19:07that sort when the book came out. And
19:09then the pandemic hit. And I said, "You
19:11know what? Let's pause the book." And he
19:13said, "Why don't you just maybe go on
19:15podcast?" So, that year, 2020, I went
19:18on, I think, somewhere between 20 and 30
19:20podcasts.
19:21No book, no website, no nothing. Just
19:24like talking science and delighted in
19:26that. And then January 2021,
19:29I got a little place um
19:32in a little uh kind of canyon region of
19:35Los Angeles, a little sabbatical-like uh
19:38retreat and um set up some cameras.
19:41I had my bulldog Costello there. Rob
19:43Moore became my podcast producer. And on
19:45January 1st, more or less, we launched
19:49the Huberman Lab podcast, where now I
19:51still just blab about stuff that I find
19:55interesting and that I think can be
19:56useful to people. So, that's the kind of
19:59that's the arc. And as I tell all this,
20:01I also just want to make sure that
20:02people know that
20:04it sounds like this magnificent arc, but
20:07along the way there were
20:09absolutely times when I thought, "Oh my
20:11like what am I going to do?" Like this
20:12is working, but this isn't working. And
20:14my life at times became very lopsided. I
20:16focused mainly on work and research. Um
20:19you know, I'm 49 years old. Now I've had
20:21some wonderful relationships across my
20:23life, but I opted to
20:25delay on marriage and family as a way to
20:30uh well, it wasn't the intention, but as
20:31a way to really just continue to pour my
20:34energy into the things that I was most
20:36passionate about. So, there's always
20:38sacrifice. There were you know, sadly
20:40I've lost a lot of friends along the way
20:42to some to drugs and alcohol, suicide,
20:45depression, and so on. Um others to just
20:47unfortunate consequences or age. But the
20:51um I think the major themes have been
20:55I just simply can't pull myself off a
20:58desire to learn and adventure through a
21:00particular space. And then once I learn
21:02things and as I learn things, I can't
21:05seem to help but just tell everybody
21:07about it. And you know, provided there's
21:09somebody there to listen, then I'm eager
21:11to share what what I learn.
21:14It's funny in life how some of the most
21:16traumatic things that happened to us.
21:17And trauma is such a subjective thing.
21:19So, what's trauma for me is not for
21:21Francis Ngannou, who I've heard his
21:22story and you know, walking out of
21:24Africa and jumping over barbed wire and
21:26walking across the Sahara desert. His is
21:28an amazing
21:29I just can't you know, it's like
21:30I hear he's a very nice guy.
21:32He's exceptionally nice. He's a
21:33wonderful individual. But I'm I'm really
21:35interested in how our traumatic
21:36experiences end up um
21:39dragging us in whatever shape in life.
21:41Dragging us or making us driven. That
21:43it's almost two sides of the same coin
21:44sometimes. But I just wanted to zoom
21:46back in on when you were younger. Um cuz
21:48I was reading about at 14, 15 years old,
21:51you were put into a residential
21:53treatment program.
21:54I was.
21:55So, one day in school and by the way, I
21:58wasn't in school much and if I was
21:59there, I was the kid with the hoodie on
22:01with his head on the table, you know,
22:02just kind of like sleeping or drawing or
22:05um I was not tuned in to what I should
22:07have been tuned into. Um I was looking
22:10back, I think I was depressed. I was
22:12sad. I was confused by the fracture of
22:14my family. And listen, um
22:17divorce and family reorganization can
22:20take place without all that. It
22:22unfortunately this was a very
22:24complicated situation.
22:26Um
22:26and maybe it was also puberty combined
22:29with general confusion about life. Um
22:32those things um combined to you know,
22:35put me in a state that I think looking
22:36back I was I was scared, depressed,
22:39and confused like a lot of young people
22:42happen to be at that age. So,
22:45a number of things happened. Um I was
22:47getting into trouble.
22:48I wasn't attending school. I was truant
22:51a lot.
22:52Um and
22:54yeah, one day they came to like get me.
22:57They basically called me into the
22:58office. I was sitting there
23:00um talking to school counselor. It
23:02wasn't my first time doing that. And
23:04then some other people showed up there
23:05and I started to realize like uh-oh, I
23:07think I know what this is. Um which was
23:10they were going to take me away. Um now,
23:13the exact stimulus for all this, whether
23:15or not a friend, I think I know who it
23:16was, had been concerned about me and had
23:19intervened or whether or not it was
23:21purely from the parent side isn't clear
23:23to me still. I have my theories and they
23:24have theirs.
23:26Um but in any event, I soon after found
23:29myself in a residential treatment
23:31program. And um
23:33it was interesting because
23:35it was the first time that I had ever
23:37had my freedom taken away from me. You
23:39know, that was an experience like doors
23:41go locked and you're like, "Whoa, you
23:42know, like my freedom's taken away."
23:44Well, you're locked you're locked in a
23:46treatment program basically. You know,
23:48these were all kids that were delinquent
23:50or had problems of various sorts. So,
23:52you're on a hallway with a bunch of
23:54other kids.
23:55Um
23:56you know, you're staying there at night.
23:57You're not leaving. You're not free to
23:59walk to leave. And they make you do
24:01group therapy. You have to do one-on-one
24:02therapy. Um you you have an hour to
24:05exercise outside. You're not leaving the
24:08the grounds. Yeah, this is a like a
24:09combination of like if you were to just
24:11sort of merge in your mind like youth
24:13detention and hospital, right? That's
24:15kind of the the the the unity of these.
24:17Now, kids there and they and we were
24:19kids, right? Um and there was a there
24:21was a unit of much younger kids. And
24:24there was a unit of people much older
24:27than us. And I'll never forget what they
24:28said.
24:29One of the counselors there said to us,
24:31"Listen, the kids over there, the
24:33younger ones,
24:35and the adults over there,
24:38they're crazy. You guys, you're not
24:41crazy. You just have problems." And I'll
24:44never forget one of the kids that was in
24:45there with me goes, "Yeah, but that's
24:47exactly what they're telling the people
24:48in the other two in the other two
24:50units." So, pretty quickly I realized
24:52like this place is is problematic. And I
24:54was scared. I I won't forget like my my
24:57roommate, who turned out to be a very
24:58kind person, but he looked like Richard
25:01Ramirez, the Night Stalker. And he had a
25:03cutting problem.
25:05And he was like a scary looking guy, but
25:09as I got to know him,
25:10I realized that he um
25:12was just a a
25:14kid with a lot of problems. Different
25:15than mine, but a lot of problems.
25:17So, you're in there with kids with
25:20severe drug issues, with um
25:22some were suicidal, some weren't, some
25:24had aggression issues. Um it was a coed
25:27unit during the day. Obviously you're
25:29you're housed, you know, it was boys
25:30with boys, girls with girls. Um
25:33and after about 2 3 days, I realized,
25:37"Okay, the only way out of here is to do
25:39the work." So,
25:41I did the work. I sat down and I started
25:44for the first time really talking about
25:47what was going on for me
25:48and listening. You can learn a lot in
25:50those places by listening to what's
25:52going on for other people. And I
25:53realized that a lot of what was going on
25:55internally for me had to do with the
25:57fact that you know,
25:59you know, I mean what do we need? We we
26:00basically need safety and acceptance at
26:03some level. You know, from from parents
26:05we also need guardrails. And at that
26:08time I was lacking all three.
26:10Um
26:11and
26:12I think you know, my inherent intensity
26:15and I'm a pretty
26:17um
26:17I'm not an emotional person in the sense
26:19that I don't emote easily. Um but I'm a
26:23very feeling person. I feel a lot. I
26:25don't know how other people perceive me,
26:27but I feel a lot. And um I think what
26:30was happening in my family unit at that
26:31time felt devastating.
26:34And um I missed my sister. She was off
26:37off in college. She had gone off to
26:38college. I've always been really close
26:40with my sister. And and really because
26:42this was like late well, this was late
26:45'80s, early '90s.
26:47I also didn't know many people from
26:49homes without you know, a mom and dad,
26:51this kind of thing.
26:52And I had been exposed to a lot already.
26:55You know, one of the beautiful things
26:56about skateboarding, at least back then,
26:57it's different now, is that it was
26:59completely self-organized. So, whenever
27:01I could, I would get a ride with a
27:03friend or take the bus up to San
27:04Francisco. There was this now famous
27:07{slash} infamous scene, the Embarcadero
27:09Plaza, that's called EMB, was this kind
27:12of self-organized
27:14place. You have these in major cities
27:15elsewhere. There was Love Park in
27:16Philadelphia, you know, Washington
27:18Square Park in New York. And back then,
27:20I learned a lot from the older it was
27:22mostly guys then. Now there's more women
27:24in skateboarding, girls and women in
27:25skateboarding and they rip. They're so
27:27good. But um back then it was mostly
27:30guys and so I learned all sorts of
27:32things there, some of which you know, I
27:34was far too young to learn. I got
27:36basically a street education
27:39um from kids that weren't going to
27:41school and who were just like living
27:43this wild free life. And I do want to be
27:45clear that even though there were
27:48let's call them untoward elements, there
27:50was also a lot an incredible beauty. And
27:52like you know, my friend Jake Rosenberg
27:55started going up there as well. He had
27:57his own challenges that I only learned
27:59about later.
28:00Um and he brought a video camera, Hi8
28:03video. He started filming the now like
28:07just like truly iconic videos of Mike
28:10Carroll. These names will mean things to
28:11you. Henry Sanchez, like Marc Gonzales
28:13is like he so he just started filming
28:15all this and then he made the first Plan
28:17B videos and he made the Waiting for
28:19Lightning documentary about Danny Way,
28:21like jumping the Great Wall of China.
28:22And our friend Mike Blabac, who's the
28:25photographer for the Huberman Lab
28:26podcast of all things, who became one of
28:28the most iconic action sports portrait
28:30photographers, was a kid who basically
28:33drove out from Michigan.
28:34I don't even know if he graduated high
28:36school. Some he probably did. And then
28:38he slept in the clothing stacks at the
28:40Gap store, hung out in Embarcadero, and
28:43took photos. And those photos and those
28:45videos that Mike and Jacob and other
28:47people took are now iconic in
28:49skateboarding.
28:50And so,
28:51I was also exposed to this incredible
28:53world of DIY like like take your
28:55passion, take your circumstance, and
28:59pick a craft and just document stuff.
29:02And so, in many ways like what happened
29:04at Embarcadero and what happened in
29:05skateboarding and I always loved punk
29:07rock music and going to shows. I have no
29:08musical talent and I
29:10I didn't suck at skateboarding, but I
29:11wasn't going to go anywhere with it.
29:13But the what I saw was if you love
29:15something and you want to learn as much
29:17as possible about it and you love the
29:19culture around it,
29:20you do have to learn how to sort out the
29:22untoward elements. Don't get yourself
29:23into trouble.
29:25But
29:26you take that energy and I just took it
29:28to academics. I remember realizing when
29:31I got to graduate school, I found a
29:32wonderful lab to work in with a
29:33wonderful woman named Barbara Chapman.
29:35Unfortunately, she passed away.
29:37And at the time she said, "Listen, I'm
29:40going to have a couple kids, but we have
29:41grants. You can So, she said I'm going
29:43to have a couple kids, so I'm going to
29:44be very busy, but we have grants and
29:46here's the lab." She said, "Don't burn
29:47the lab down. Don't hurt yourself, but
29:49just do experiments. Have fun." And I
29:50realized, I was like, "This is the
29:52best." And I had so much energy, and I
29:54thought, "I never have to go home." So,
29:56I lived there a lot of the time. Brush
29:58my teeth in the sink there, work out at
29:59the gym, go and shower, come back. And I
30:02remember people saying, "You're going to
30:03burn out. What are you doing?" And I'm
30:05like, "What are you talking about?" And
30:06I would work 80, sometimes 100 hours a
30:08week. I was so happy.
30:10And I realized, like, this is the exact
30:12same feeling. I'm just taking my
30:13interest, and I'm just pouring myself
30:15into it. I did that when I was a
30:15graduate student. I did when I was a
30:17post-doc. And actually, when I was a
30:18post-doc, I started writing some music
30:22um articles for Thrasher magazine. I've
30:23always kept some little tie to the
30:25skateboarding industry that way, just to
30:27make some extra cash.
30:29And then, when I was a junior professor,
30:30I had to really pour myself just into
30:32the laboratory, but it still worked out.
30:35And
30:36I guess the point is that
30:37you know, earlier you and I were talking
30:39about if you have, and I'm borrowing in
30:41this phrase from one of my heroes,
30:42Martha Beck, um who's a wonderful person
30:45and teacher, has such wisdom, and she
30:47calls it a um interest-based attention
30:50system. Some people might call it ADHD,
30:53but have you ever noticed that even
30:54people And we know this from the
30:55scientific literature, people, kids,
30:58adults with ADHD, when they're in
31:00so-called ADHD,
31:03when they are doing something they
31:05really love, they're like a laser.
31:07They're not going to peel off that.
31:09Their attention is like level 11 out of
31:1010. So,
31:13I took
31:14that energy that I've always had in me
31:16for fish, for tropical birds,
31:18skateboarding, punk rock music,
31:20eventually it was biology, and I just
31:22went, "Okay, here are my chips.
31:24I'm all in. All in." But the goal has
31:28always been and remains to take what I
31:30learn
31:31and share it. Because the real joy in
31:34doing anything,
31:36for me, anyway, is the ability to share
31:38in that knowledge or in that experience.
31:41And so, um those early years were really
31:43choppy and really dangerous, you know,
31:46frankly. But then, when I started a
31:48laboratory and decided, "Yeah, I'm going
31:50to study human stress. Let's go get VR
31:53of stressful circumstances." And my
31:55friend Michael Muller, who's a very
31:57accomplished portrait photographer in
31:59Hollywood, and also takes photos of
32:03great white sharks out of cages, he said
32:06to me, "Oh, you know, your VR stimulus
32:07in your lab, um here's what he told me."
32:10He He's like, "It sucks." He said, "It
32:12sucks. It doesn't look real. It's all
32:13CGI. It's not scary at all.
32:15How about we, you know, go film some
32:18great white sharks down in Guadalupe
32:19Island, and we leave the cage?" And, you
32:21know, the the young Andrew was like,
32:25"Okay." So, got dive certified, went and
32:27did it one year, stayed in the cage,
32:29went the next year, exited the cage. I'm
32:31not recommending people live this way.
32:33I'm not, because I had an air failure at
32:34depth the second year while I was in the
32:36cage. I bailed out. I made it. I lived,
32:39but it was super scary. And it was not
32:42an experience I want to repeat. And I
32:44realized, you know, that's the line.
32:47Like, I you know, the great Oliver
32:49Sacks, another hero of mine,
32:51British-trained neurologist and and
32:52author, he wrote uh was basically what
32:55became the script for Awakenings and
32:56things like that. Um
32:59there's a quote about him that resonates
33:01a lot. And the quote, I think, is, I
33:03mean, you know, uh an early teacher of
33:05his said, "Oliver will go far, provided
33:08he does not go too far."
33:10And so, you know, you have to be
33:11careful, right? These adventures,
33:13leaving school, doing you you can't be
33:15haphazard about it. So,
33:18if you look at the broad arc, it's
33:20highly nonlinear, but there's a common
33:22thread through all of it, which is this
33:24desire to learn, curiosity,
33:27desire to share, intensity.
33:30And
33:31when I'm involved in any one thing, and
33:33I recommend that if people are involved
33:34in any one thing, if it's podcasting or
33:36sport or video games or math or AI or
33:40program, whatever it is, skateboarding,
33:42whatever it is, that you can't be
33:44haphazard in that world.
33:47Because
33:48forward progress, even if you change
33:50things over time, is the consequence of
33:51taking that inherent uniqueness that we
33:54each have, and whatever level of
33:56intensity we have, and making sure that
33:58you, you know, do take steps forward.
34:00And there are What I've learned is
34:02as a child, as an adolescent, and as an
34:04adult, there are all these traps along
34:06the way. There are all these shoots down
34:09to failure and destruction, and you have
34:11to be very, very thoughtful. And so, you
34:14can't be reckless.
34:17I'm really compelled as well by the
34:18letter you sent to your parents.
34:21Yeah, they they must have been very
34:22surprised. That letter was written
34:25in a house on a little street in the
34:27little town called Isla Vista, um Pasado
34:30Street, where I'd essentially been
34:32squatting for the summer with my ferret.
34:34That was the I tell you that cuz that
34:36was the picture. I had a ferret, her
34:37name was Iris, that my first girlfriend
34:39who had left me by then, cuz she was
34:40smart, cuz I had nothing going on. Um
34:44We were me and Iris were living
34:46together. I didn't even have a bed in
34:47the place. I thought, "Well, why pay
34:48rent, you know? Like, no one in Like,
34:50where I grown up with all these like
34:52like riffraff kids." Now, the town To be
34:55clear, the town I grew up in, Palo Alto,
34:57now is known as like one of the
34:58wealthiest places. At that time, it was
34:59like kind of upper middle class, but
35:01when I say like riffraff kids, I mean,
35:03like the people that congregated around
35:05skateboarding in the late '80s, early
35:06'90s, were the kind of like parentless,
35:08feral types. So, I learned a lot. I
35:11learned I can sleep mummy style
35:12anywhere.
35:14In a car, in a van, in a corner. So,
35:16like, why pay rent? That summer, I'd
35:17have more money to keep and save if I
35:20just
35:21got a pillow and a couple blankets and a
35:22sleeping bag. And this little place, I
35:24was living there with my ferret.
35:26And I came back from that fight on July
35:284th,
35:29and I thought, "Okay, like, this is it."
35:32And I think it was by the end of the
35:33weekend I'd written out this letter that
35:35said, essentially,
35:37the following. It said, "Look, I don't
35:40know why
35:43you guys decided to just fracture
35:45everything.
35:46I understood why my parents didn't want
35:48to be together. They were incompatible.
35:50Um By the way, they're both happily
35:51married now to wonderful people for many
35:53years. So, there there's a happy ending
35:54there. But at the time, I was very
35:56confused. It wasn't that I needed them
35:58to be together, but the level of
36:01friction in their separation was just
36:03like it I felt like a lot of it fell on
36:05me.
36:06And And there are reasons for that.
36:08But
36:11I basically forgave them.
36:13I basically said, "Listen, I
36:15forgive you.
36:16Um
36:17I realized that I need to take control
36:19of my life. I was 18. So, I'm a fall
36:22baby, so it was like I was almost 19.
36:25Um
36:26you know, 18 years old, 19 years old.
36:29And I need to do something with my life.
36:32And
36:33the only way I'm going to do that is by
36:35getting super focused
36:36and super organized. So, I somehow had
36:39the the idea to externalize this.
36:42And then, I wrote essentially the same
36:44letter to myself.
36:45And then, I just
36:47as my girlfriend who eventually got back
36:49together with me. That was interesting.
36:50As soon as I started working hard in
36:52school, I'll never forget what she said.
36:53We're still friendly. She's married with
36:55her own family, and they have a
36:56beautiful family, but every once in a
36:58while I'll hear from her, and I will
36:59never forget what she said to me about a
37:01year later when I was just absolutely
37:03rabid about learning. She said, um
37:06"You know, you've become a monster." And
37:09I was like, "A monster?" And she's like,
37:11"Yeah, a monster of learning and class
37:13and getting up early, and you tuck your
37:15shirt in." Like, I got into this whole
37:17thing of like dressing
37:18the opposite of everyone else that lived
37:20in that little town. It's a little beach
37:21town. Everyone wore flip-flops, rode
37:23beach cruisers.
37:24Uh at that time, it was like baggy
37:25shorts, long T-shirts, and I started
37:27tucking in my shirt, a belt. I would get
37:29like all like, you know, like cleaned
37:31up, and I'd and I'd go to class, and
37:33people are like, "What is wrong with
37:34this guy?" I just wanted to go
37:35completely against the grain and just be
37:39as disciplined and organized as
37:40possible. And I basically was parenting
37:43myself.
37:44And I think that this is something that
37:45I learned how to do early on. I love my
37:47parents, but I learned how to mother and
37:48father myself. And that was powerful. It
37:51was like I was a young guy, um but let's
37:54face it, you know, at 19, you're young,
37:56but you're not that young in the sense
37:58that if you screw up,
38:00you know, if you
38:02you know, I don't know. I had friends
38:03who got into drunk driving stuff. A
38:05friend of ours was killed in a drunk
38:07driving accident. Um I wasn't real close
38:09with him, but I knew him real well. This
38:11guy, Phil Shaw, great skateboarder,
38:13was killed cuz someone drove drunk. He
38:15wasn't driving drunk. Dead. Bunch of
38:17people dead or in jail. So, you know,
38:18when you're 18 or older, like, the
38:20consequences go super superlinear, you
38:24know, shift, um
38:26where small mistakes can lead to really
38:29bad outcomes. So, yeah, I just kind of
38:31scruffed myself, and I was like, "Let's
38:33do this." And, you know, here I am. I'm
38:35so intrigued by that, because in that
38:37moment, you have, I think, a moment in
38:40which a lot of people are searching for
38:41in their lives, where where you have you
38:43have a decision to do it differently.
38:45And I've always wondered what it takes
38:46for someone to get there. And is it
38:47something that you can accelerate
38:50towards? Like, is there If I'm laying on
38:52the couch right now, and I'm feeling
38:53that, is there something I can do to get
38:55me there, or do I need more pain?
38:57Fear.
38:58Fear.
38:59I'll tell you.
39:01Super scary being
39:03like almost 19 years old, girlfriend
39:06left me.
39:07I'm not good at anything. I wasn't good
39:09at anything.
39:11Not skateboarding, couldn't play an
39:12instrument.
39:14Everyone in that town surfed.
39:16Um Family?
39:17Family, I mean, I didn't Yeah, I could
39:19have gone to the fire service, and
39:21that's a wonderful career path. Um
39:24Yeah, I didn't I didn't have any like
39:26marketable skills. I couldn't really do
39:29anything, except I knew my capacity to
39:31learn. I've always had a very good
39:33memory,
39:34and I've always enjoyed learning.
39:36So, I thought, "Okay, school seems like
39:38a good option. They tell you what you
39:40need to know." In fact, at one point, I
39:41realized, and I think it was Ryan
39:43Holiday that said that, you know, the
39:45people who should absolutely not drop
39:47out of college are the people who are
39:50not doing well, because the real world
39:52is a lot harder in many ways. It's a lot
39:55harder than college. In college they
39:56tell they tell you what to do. I
39:58remember taking a class in Greek
39:59mythology. You go there, if you sit near
40:01the front, you pay attention, you try
40:03not to pay attention to anyone else. You
40:05sit down, they tell you what you need to
40:06know. Now, sometimes it's complicated,
40:09you can't keep up, but then they have
40:10these things called office hours where
40:11you can ask, they have teaching
40:12assistants. I mean, the whole thing is
40:13set up so that you almost can't fail if
40:17you do the required steps. Whereas with
40:20skateboarding, it's like I was always
40:21getting broke off, as they say, you
40:23know, I was always rolling my left foot,
40:25snapped again, uh nothing, couldn't do
40:27it.
40:28Um
40:29there's so much uncertainty in other
40:31things. At least with a college
40:33education, for me, it was like, okay,
40:36I can I can learn this stuff. And then
40:39what I found is when there's a desire to
40:42learn, and then you learn, and then you
40:44do well, and I'd started doing very
40:46well. Um
40:48and but there's that one class that I
40:50got a B+ in that I'm still pissed off
40:52about, you know. My first year was a
40:54disaster, then it was all A's, and then
40:56there's this one class in neural
40:58development from Ben Reese,
41:00and I got a B+.
41:03And as a consequence, when I went to
41:05graduate school, I studied neural
41:07development. You know, it's the thing
41:09that you don't get, the the place where
41:10you make an error that you forever carry
41:12that signal, I need to get better at
41:14that. So, I think a lot of it is just
41:17having the
41:19the knowledge of self, right? What did
41:21the oracle say? Know thyself. The
41:22knowledge of self
41:24to really think, okay, like, what are my
41:26strengths? Do I like to learn if I'm
41:28interested in something? Do I have a
41:30voracious appetite? Maybe if you're a
41:32person with less energy, um maybe uh
41:36you're more reflective, or you like to
41:37journal, or you need more time to
41:38process. I think turning what often
41:41appear as weaknesses into strengths is
41:43really possible.
41:45And then I do think that we are all each
41:47endowed with some unique gift. I really
41:49believe in this. Um it's not mystical
41:51for me. I think that we all have some
41:54wiring of our brains that's very
41:55similar, and we all have some unique
41:57wiring based on our genetics and our
41:58experience.
42:00And I just thought,
42:02I'm going to
42:03keep paying attention to what fills my
42:05body with energy.
42:06One of the most inspiring, and I think
42:08liberating, things that I've heard in
42:10your work is this idea of
42:11neuroplasticity, because
42:13if your if the brain can physiologically
42:16change based on what I'm doing, then it
42:18means that who I am now, my identity,
42:20that 60 that 19-year-old who's sleeping
42:22in the mummy thing with the ferret,
42:24isn't who I always have to be. I can
42:25literally change.
42:27Um we've spoken a little bit around like
42:29what causes the motivation to actually
42:31change, but knowing that there's a my
42:32brain will actually change, those two
42:35things are really inspiring for me,
42:37because it means that whatever rut I'm
42:38stuck in isn't necessarily a permanent
42:40one. Now, you said that the motivation
42:42to change comes from fear. Well, in my
42:45case, it took a a fear circumstance,
42:48fear of becoming a
42:49permanent failure, Yeah. to motivate
42:52immense change. And um
42:54uh that was that circumstance. I I do
42:57believe, however, that the
42:59best work, our most creative and best
43:02work, comes from a a love of craft.
43:05But sometimes, in order to find what you
43:06truly love, you have to be scared into
43:09setting off on a path to find it. And um
43:13yeah. And And And that goes for
43:16relationships, too. Sometimes, to find
43:18the right relationship, um or
43:20relationships, it could be friendships,
43:22romantic relationships, etc., one has to
43:24be
43:26like deathly afraid of having to remain
43:28in the the relationship that you're in
43:29enough to leave.
43:30So, neuroplasticity
43:33is absolutely real. Um it actually
43:35worked out that my scientific
43:37great-grandparents, two guys,
43:40David Hubel and Torsten Wiesel, won the
43:42Nobel Prize for
43:44for neuroplasticity. Now, they weren't
43:46the people who discovered it. It had
43:48actually been described for centuries.
43:50People understood that young kids
43:52can learn more easily than adults can.
43:55But David and Torsten won the Nobel
43:57Prize for essentially formalizing the
44:01and discovering the principles of
44:02neuroplasticity, how it works. And then,
44:05some years later,
44:07mainly one guy by the name of Mike
44:09Merzenich, but there were others that
44:10worked with him,
44:12discovered that neuroplasticity is
44:14actually a feature of the nervous
44:15system, the brain, throughout our entire
44:18lifespan. The rules change a little bit
44:20in terms of how you rewire your brain.
44:22But if the question is, can
44:25a person change? Can you learn new
44:27thing? Can you unlearn certain patterns?
44:29Can you overcome traumas
44:31at any age? The answer is absolutely,
44:34categorically, yes.
44:37How? Well, it's very clear that as a
44:39child until about age 25, more or less,
44:43just passive experience will shape the
44:45brain, for better or worse.
44:47After about age 25, and again, these are
44:50not strict cutoffs,
44:52we can change our brain, but what's
44:54required is a marked shift in the
44:56neurochemical environment under which
44:59something happens. So, one of the
45:01reasons why any traumatic event will
45:03forever be remembered, although, by the
45:05way, you can remove some of the
45:07emotional load of that, trauma does not
45:08have to be traumatic forever,
45:12is because when we see or experience
45:14something very intense of a fearful
45:16nature,
45:18there is the release of certain what we
45:19call neuromodulators, things like
45:22epinephrine, adrenaline, and other
45:24neuromodulators that cause a state shift
45:27in our broad body and brain.
45:29And the nervous system recognizes this
45:32as unusual, and as a consequence, in the
45:34subsequent days, there's reordering of
45:36the connections,
45:38so that the brain can prepare for that
45:40event should it happen again.
45:42This is why we have what's called
45:43one-trial learning. You go to a certain
45:45location, something terrible happens
45:47there, you will forever associate that
45:49location with something terrible. But
45:52there are tools, therapy, and other
45:53tools
45:54that can allow the emotional load to be
45:57removed from that, so that you could go
45:58to that location and feel calm, no fear
46:01whatsoever.
46:02The good news is you can also learn
46:04anything you want to learn,
46:06provided there's a shift in this
46:07neurochemical environment. This is why
46:09when we are very interested and focused
46:11on something, two of the main
46:13requirements for neuroplasticity, we
46:15have to be alert and we have to be
46:16focused. We can't learn passively as
46:19adults. We can't just play, um
46:21you know,
46:22a lecture about AI and large language
46:25models or neuroscience in the room, and
46:27then it just the knowledge doesn't just
46:29sink in by osmosis.
46:31But if we pay attention and we're alert
46:33when we pay attention,
46:35there's a shift in the neurochemicals
46:37associated with that attention,
46:38what we call the catecholamines. It's
46:40three molecules, dopamine, epinephrine,
46:43and norepinephrine, all which cause an
46:45increase in alertness, all which cause
46:47an increase in focus, a tightening of
46:49our visual field and our auditory field,
46:51so like cones of attention is one way to
46:53think about it. And then, it sets in
46:55motion a bunch of biological processes
46:57such that if we get adequate sleep that
46:59night,
47:00maybe the next night as well, there's
47:02reordering of neural connections, so
47:04that that knowledge, that new
47:05experience,
47:07is consolidated in your brain. You are
47:09forever changed as a consequence of that
47:11experience. So, when we hear that the
47:14brain is constantly changing, everything
47:16that we encounter changes our brain,
47:18that's not true.
47:19Why would the brain change unless it
47:21needed to? Right? As a child, the brain
47:23is basically a template for change. It's
47:25it's trying to understand the
47:26environment and make predictions, and so
47:29that's true. Neuroplasticity is is
47:32a cardinal feature of of childhood and
47:34adolescence and the teen years. You just
47:36think about the music you listened to
47:37when you were a teen, no other music
47:39will ever have as much significance. And
47:41that's because as a teen, your body is
47:42flooded with hormones and
47:44neuromodulators that the amount of
47:45meaning that comes from
47:48now seemingly trivial events when you're
47:50a teenager or adolescent is immense.
47:52That song meant so much, and it's
47:54because of the neurochemical milieu it
47:56creates in you. But as an adult, it
47:58takes a stronger stimulus, as we say.
48:00And if you were to
48:03fall in love as an adult, or see
48:05something a painting that just strikes
48:08you as just so unbelievable, yes, then
48:11you are forever changed. But just going
48:13to see a bunch of paintings at the Met
48:14doesn't mean that every single one of
48:16those paintings is forever stamped into
48:17your brain. The The nervous system is
48:19very
48:20um efficient in that way. It doesn't
48:23change unless it has to.
48:25And it
48:26always changes if it needs to in order
48:28to keep you safe. This is why there's an
48:30asymmetric influence of fear as opposed
48:32to um just interest in terms of what
48:35will shift our brain.
48:37But
48:38it's nice to know that love and
48:41excitement and appreciation are very
48:44strong stimuli for changing the brain.
48:47And um you know, I can
48:49kind of draw to mind conversations I've
48:51had with my good friend Rick Rubin. I'll
48:53get accused of name-dropping, but I'm
48:54very fortunate to be close friends with
48:56Rick, and Rick always talks about,
48:59you know, how when you just see and
49:01experience something and you just have
49:02this love for it, it changes the brain.
49:05He's not a neuroscientist, but in many
49:06ways, he's a neuroscientist. So, in any
49:09case, you absolutely can change your
49:11brain, but you have to pay attention to
49:14the thing you want to incorporate into
49:16your brain. You have to be alert while
49:18you do that, and then you absolutely
49:20have to go get some rest, because it's
49:21during sleep and during meditative
49:24states and during rest that the actual
49:27rewiring of the brain occurs.
49:29There's a phrase that you can't teach an
49:30old dog new tricks. And I think as we
49:33get older and older, we become stubborn
49:34in part because we're very comfortable
49:37with the way things are in routine and
49:38whatever, but also I think we start to
49:40believe in this idea that we can't
49:43change. And that in and in and of itself
49:45makes it harder to change. Are you
49:47telling me that you can teach an old dog
49:49new tricks? Yeah, I'm so glad you
49:51brought this up.
49:52Um let's just
49:54destroy that myth now. You absolutely
49:57can teach an old dog or human new
49:59tricks.
50:00We know this. In fact, there's studies
50:03incredible studies that were done down
50:05at the Salk Institute in San Diego
50:07showing that even in people who are very
50:12old, right? These are people in their
50:1380s and 90s. You know, the human
50:15lifespan probably maximum human lifespan
50:17as we understand it is probably about
50:18120 years
50:21more or less, but most people don't make
50:22it to 100, but so 80 or 90 is pretty
50:24old.
50:24Mhm.
50:26There's still the addition of new
50:27neurons occurring. These people who were
50:30unfortunately dying of terminal cancer,
50:32I believe, but other causes agreed to
50:34take a a dye that actually gets
50:36incorporated into new neurons. And then
50:39after they died, their brains were um
50:41you know
50:43looked at under the microscope and there
50:45was the addition of new neurons even at
50:47late age. Now, I want to be very clear
50:49that most of learning is not the
50:51addition of new neurons, at least not in
50:53humans.
50:54But from everything we know about
50:55neuroscience, it's clear that doesn't
50:58matter if you're 90 years old, 70 years
51:01old, 50 years old, if you want to learn,
51:03you can learn. And that learning occurs
51:05through neuroplasticity, which is the
51:07reordering of neural connections,
51:08strengthening of certain connections,
51:10weakening of others, and in some rare
51:12cases the addition of new neurons, but
51:15brain change is absolutely real at every
51:18stage of life.
51:20I also wonder about habit formation. So,
51:23you said there that some of the more
51:24sort of startling stimuluses like fear
51:27are great ways and and obsessive sort of
51:29deep focus are great ways to start
51:32forming these new behavior patterns. But
51:33if I want to break a habit cuz there's
51:35habits I've got in my life that I've
51:36kind of just told myself are
51:38who I am.
51:40And
51:41accordingly, I've just kind of accepted
51:43them. Well, you've been very successful,
51:45so Yeah, but even with all there's all
51:47thing Thank you, but with there's many
51:48things I'd still I've just accepted it's
51:50part of who I am. Some of those come
51:52from my childhood. So, one of them is
51:53that I grew up in a very disorganized
51:55home where like the doors inside my
51:56house had holes in them and our house
51:58there was like some rooms that looked
51:59like a hoarder lived there. Just piles
52:01and piles of stuff to the roof. Um house
52:04demolished in many respects. Like the
52:06back of the garden was 6 ft high. It was
52:08it was a mess. So, I've grown up with
52:11mess and I'm therefore still pretty
52:14messy today. And it's something I've
52:15always wanted to defeat, but I just
52:17sometimes I tell myself, well, it you
52:18know, it was hardwired into me when I
52:20was a kid
52:21and it it is just who I am. And a lot of
52:24people go around saying that. They've
52:25just kind of
52:26identified with and accepted a certain
52:28bad habit as part of who they are.
52:31Well, I will say that some of the most
52:33brilliant people I know had terribly
52:35messy offices. And they were very
52:38internally organized people. It's kind
52:40of interesting. They were like a laser
52:42beam in their ability to kind of sort
52:44through mess. They didn't see the mess.
52:47In fact, my post-doc advisor, who also
52:49sadly passed away, but an incredible
52:51human by the name of Ben Barres. Used to
52:53walk into his office and there'd just be
52:55piles of stuff everywhere. And I'd say,
52:58"Ben, I I think we should clean your
52:59office." And he'd say, "Don't touch
53:00anything because if you move anything, I
53:02won't know where it is." And I said,
53:03"How could you possibly know where
53:04anything is right now?" And he said, "I
53:06know where everything is." And so, I
53:08think some people also by growing up in
53:11or being in that environment also
53:13maintain an uncanny ability to find
53:16things. Whereas, I'm the sort of person
53:18where I can't do any work until
53:19everything is cleared away.
53:21And so, um I see myself as on the weaker
53:25side of this ability. Um but to your
53:28question, I think
53:31stories are very powerful and very
53:33dangerous.
53:35Stories are the way that humans organize
53:38knowledge by and large, right? We don't
53:40tend to
53:41organize things into lists. We have
53:43these narratives that we call stories
53:44because from a young age
53:46we learn things not just by hearing them
53:50and seeing them, but they are
53:52compartmentalized into narratives that
53:55have a beginning, a middle, and an end.
53:56Sometimes they have a
53:58uh kind of a crescendo and then a
54:00relaxation. Just think about a childhood
54:01song of learning like the ABCs.
54:04They don't teach you the ABCs A B C D E
54:07F G H I J K, right? They don't do that.
54:10What do they do? They give you a song,
54:11which is a story. Musicians will
54:13understand this inherently. Again, I'm
54:15not one, but
54:16when I started researching neuroscience
54:18of music in the brain, came to
54:19understand so it's A B C D E F G, right?
54:24The change in the inflections
54:27as one does the alphabet as a young kid
54:29is the story of the alphabet. Now,
54:31people might say, "Okay, what what is he
54:33talking about?" What's happening here is
54:35you create variation in terms of
54:37batching of ideas
54:40so that something has a beginning, a
54:41middle, and an end. So, if you think,
54:43"Okay, I grew up in this house and it
54:45was really messy and now I have too much
54:47mess and in order to undo that, there's
54:49this kind of like hardwired right
54:51dangerous words hardwired neural
54:53circuitry in my brain that I would have
54:55to work really really hard to undo and
54:56I'd have to be scared into being a
54:58cleaner person or what you or what you
54:59know, I'm a tidier person, whatever it
55:01is."
55:02That's very dangerous because there's a
55:04beginning to that, a middle to that, and
55:06an end to that and it has immense
55:08meaning as a consequence.
55:10One of the most powerful things is to
55:12understand that neuroplasticity really
55:15involves taking an existing story and
55:18dismantling some component of it. What
55:20could the component be? Well, there's
55:22all this stuff like the Byron Katie work
55:24which says, you know, you you take
55:25something that you believe as true and
55:27you say, "Okay, like uh like I'm an
55:29untidy person." And then you counter it.
55:32How do I know that? Well, okay, I have
55:33this experience. Okay, that's the story.
55:35And then you start running counter
55:36narratives. You say, "I'm uh
55:39I'm
55:40uh actually a tidy person." And then
55:41people say, "Well, this is silly. You're
55:42just lying to yourself, right?" Or they
55:44say, "Is it always true that you're a
55:45messy person?" You start challenging the
55:47story from different sides. Now, I
55:49believe as because I'm a neuroscientist,
55:52I'm not um in I'm not a psychologist or
55:54in the self-help world
55:56that the brilliance, the kind of
55:58unconscious genius of that approach is
56:02actually that what one is doing is
56:04you're starting to create a new story.
56:06You're starting to kind of infuse
56:09different questions into the existing
56:11neural network. Now, the brain loves
56:12questions. Like that the brain since
56:14we're we're young kids, we're asking
56:16questions. And so, if you take an
56:17existing story and you start challenging
56:19it with questions, you're not saying lie
56:21to yourself. You're not suddenly going
56:22to say, "Okay, like I'm super tidy."
56:24You're not going to cuz you're not going
56:25to believe that. But if you start
56:26challenging
56:27why it's that way or, you know, you've
56:30been able to change so many other
56:31things, why you wouldn't you be able to
56:32change that. We say, "Well, it's just a
56:33habit. I can't do it." You say, "Well,
56:34what's a habit?" And you start poking
56:36and pushing and pushing. What you
56:38eventually arrive at is this kind of
56:40huh.
56:41Actually, there's nothing keeping me
56:43from being a tidy person except this
56:46kind of fluency of a particular story.
56:48And what you've done is you've
56:49interrupted the fluency of that story.
56:51So, then when you go to the behavior of,
56:52you know, do you set things down all
56:54over the place or do you put them in an
56:55orderly fashion, you start interrupting
56:58the habit, the fluency of your typical
57:00behavior. So, I raise this as a as a way
57:03um to kind of shine light on essentially
57:06what
57:06I do in my podcast career, which is, you
57:09know, we I I believe very strongly in
57:10the fields of psychology. I think
57:12self-help has some wonderful things to
57:13offer. We've got ancient wisdom that
57:15goes way back. And when you start to
57:17look at things through the lens of
57:18biology you start to see that all of
57:20these things actually have merit and
57:22they're just different paths to the same
57:24outcomes. So, if you wanted to become a
57:26tidy person, I would encourage you here
57:29would be one
57:30let's just say neuroscience supported
57:33approach would be to write out one page
57:35about what a tidy person you really are.
57:39You'll know that's a lie, right? And
57:42then
57:43to
57:44look at it and realize that in many ways
57:47if you just replace tidy with, you know,
57:49messy at any location, it'd probably be
57:51the exact same story. And so, what
57:53you're really talking about here is just
57:55a default that your nervous system is
57:57running.
57:58And if you were to just swap the words,
58:01would you feel differently or do
58:02differently? On the one hand, you'd say,
58:04"No, that's kind of trivial." But I bet
58:05you the practice of writing it out would
58:07forever interrupt your notion of like
58:09just going to set something down. You'd
58:10be like, "Ah." Now you have something to
58:12kind of disrupt the habit cuz so much of
58:14habit disruption that you'll look like
58:15some people say, "Oh, you you flick a
58:17uh you know, rubber band on your wrist
58:19or something like that." There's nothing
58:20special about the rubber band. There's
58:22nothing special about the pain on your
58:23wrist or the you put a sticky note. We
58:25know sticky notes work for about 1 day.
58:27Why don't sticky notes work? Why don't
58:29reminders on the mirror work? Because
58:31they you don't have enough salience.
58:32They're not new. They're not different.
58:34The nervous system only changes if
58:35something is new and different. So,
58:37anyway, we could talk a lot about habit
58:38formation, but fear works, but so does
58:41disrupting the story. How do you disrupt
58:42the story?
58:44You essentially
58:45give the opposite story. And you think,
58:48"Well, that's just lying to myself." But
58:49neurally, it makes sense because
58:52the nervous system again likes to be
58:54very economical, likes to do everything
58:56with the minimum amount of energetic
58:58expenditure.
58:59And to change anything requires
59:01attention and attention is expensive.
59:04Attention is expensive. And also, I
59:06would say, as I'm kind of rambling all
59:08this
59:10things are going very well for you. So,
59:11you actually don't have any reason to
59:14tidy your space.
59:16now and another PA and I have a cleaner.
59:17So, it's Do you know what I mean? The
59:18Yeah, you outsource it. Yeah.
59:20Great. Well, there is incentive for all
59:22the folks that feel like they're not um
59:24tidy enough. You have two choices. You
59:25can either start to be tidy now or you
59:28can be successful enough that you can
59:29hire some assistants. And I actually
59:31think and say this in in all
59:32seriousness, I think that one has to ask
59:35like where is my attention and neural
59:38real estate best devoted? I think about
59:40this every day. I mean, we are living in
59:42a war
59:44of attention. I wake up in the morning
59:45and I can be a consumer or a creator. If
59:48I reach for my phone,
59:50I'm a consumer.
59:52If I go to my journal, I'm a creator.
59:56My advice to anyone who wants to be
59:58successful in any domain
1:00:00is to do things away from where you
1:00:03broadcast and then take it to that
1:00:05broadcast. I mean, take your real life
1:00:08to Instagram
1:00:10and be very cautious about taking
1:00:12Instagram to your real life. Does that
1:00:14make sense? If you look at successful
1:00:15people, they're doing things away from
1:00:17the platforms and putting them on the
1:00:18platforms.
1:00:19Yeah. So, I have to be very careful.
1:00:21Then I go into the kitchen.
1:00:23Obviously, I
1:00:24talk to people in my home.
1:00:26Um
1:00:27but
1:00:28if I pick up the phone and I start
1:00:30making a phone call, it's like, is this
1:00:32call really about moving
1:00:35the needle forward or is this just kind
1:00:37of like passive use of of attention? We
1:00:39have to be so careful nowadays. So, so
1:00:41careful. It's really challenging. On
1:00:43that point of focus and attention and
1:00:46thinking back to when you were 19 years
1:00:47old, one of the things people ask me a
1:00:48lot and I guess it's a bit of a debate
1:00:50in the self-help world is from a
1:00:51neuroscience perspective, is
1:00:53manifestation
1:00:55and this idea of like visualization,
1:00:57visualizing who I want to become and you
1:00:59know, where I'm going, is there any
1:01:00neuroscience to support that that works?
1:01:03There is. Um
1:01:04and I'm not trying to be negative, but
1:01:06I'll start with the negative counter
1:01:08example for which there is evidence and
1:01:11it's less often discussed. So, there's a
1:01:14wonderful researcher at New York
1:01:15University by the name of Emily Balcetis
1:01:18who talks about how for
1:01:20goal
1:01:22setting and habit formation, fear
1:01:25setting is often one of the best tools.
1:01:27You spend some time, maybe 5 minutes or
1:01:30so thinking about all the terrible
1:01:31things that are going to happen if you
1:01:32don't actually accomplish your goals.
1:01:34Nobody likes to do this, but guess what?
1:01:36It turns out to be pretty darn
1:01:38effective.
1:01:38Really? I know. It's really frustrating
1:01:40that this is the case. But again,
1:01:43you know, that has a lot to do with the
1:01:44way that the human brain is is wired and
1:01:47and likes to rewire itself. Now, that
1:01:49said, it is important to envision goals.
1:01:53Visualizing goals in detail,
1:01:55um writing them out, in some cases
1:01:58talking about them, although we can
1:02:00discuss that,
1:02:01um why that might not be the best idea
1:02:03in every circumstance,
1:02:05um can be very beneficial because it's
1:02:07hard to conceive something that you
1:02:09can't imagine, but I think when people
1:02:11hear that visualizing goals or
1:02:13visualizing outcomes is critical, we
1:02:15sometimes forget that we don't always
1:02:16know what the end goal is. Sometimes we
1:02:18have to break this up into milestones.
1:02:20This is where I think uh Rick Rubin,
1:02:22even though he's not a
1:02:24formally trained scientist, um has drawn
1:02:27a lot of interest for his work on
1:02:28creativity, which is you know, Rick is
1:02:31about largely, you know, sensing the
1:02:34kind of energetic pull of an idea and
1:02:36being able to explore that without too
1:02:38much uh self-judgment or filtering or
1:02:40thinking about how it's going to be
1:02:41received. In other words, that the
1:02:43metamorphosis that leads to great music,
1:02:46great poetry, great scientific
1:02:47discovery, podcasts, finance, companies
1:02:51one is building, etc., is a series of
1:02:53iterations that occur on the time course
1:02:55of about a day.
1:02:57You know, and so we can't always imagine
1:02:59the end or the end product as the
1:03:01outcome. This is why I said university
1:03:03is easy compared to other goals because
1:03:04the end is a degree. Mhm. Right? And
1:03:07then you pick up your diploma. Like
1:03:09whereas in other areas, it's far more
1:03:11mysterious often.
1:03:13Now,
1:03:15visualization I think can be very
1:03:16powerful,
1:03:18but perhaps what's more powerful is to
1:03:20learn the brain and body state that best
1:03:25serves the work you're going to do. So,
1:03:27for instance, if I'm going to do some
1:03:29writing and right now I'm working on a
1:03:31book. It's largely done, but I'm writing
1:03:33some bonus chapters.
1:03:35Unless I'm hyper motivated to do that
1:03:37when I sit down and hyper focused, I'll
1:03:39spend
1:03:41two, three minutes just closing my eyes,
1:03:42focusing on my breathing.
1:03:45It's meditation of sorts, but what I
1:03:46tell myself is if I can't focus on my
1:03:48breathing for two or three minutes, how
1:03:50in the world am I going to focus on
1:03:51writing for two or three hours? That
1:03:54sort of thing.
1:03:55The other thing that I want to make sure
1:03:56I don't forget is
1:03:57I mentioned that telling people your
1:03:59goals often times can be useful if it
1:04:02stimulates a little bit of fear, like
1:04:03you have some accountability.
1:04:05But we also know that
1:04:08because of the affiliative nature of
1:04:11people, in particular people that
1:04:13support us,
1:04:15there is this danger.
1:04:17Uh a friend of mine who's a cardiologist
1:04:18at UCSF taught me this. He said, you
1:04:20know, be careful who you tell that
1:04:22you're going to start a podcast or write
1:04:24a book because often times the response
1:04:27will be, oh yeah, that's great. You
1:04:28absolutely should write a book or you
1:04:29should do a podcast. And people get a
1:04:31sort of reward from telling people about
1:04:33it and then they never actually go do
1:04:35it. Whereas I can cite numerous examples
1:04:38of where people were told, you're never
1:04:40going to be able to do that. You're
1:04:42never going to be able to be successful
1:04:44in that and
1:04:45my goodness, those people dig their
1:04:47heels and they show that they can do it.
1:04:50Now,
1:04:51I get into debates about this with Rick
1:04:53from time to time. It's a you know, it's
1:04:55unclear to me whether or not the energy
1:04:57around trying to prove oneself
1:04:59is detrimental to the outcome.
1:05:02And I sense it is, right? This kind of
1:05:04grinding against like, take that and
1:05:05take that as opposed to just doing
1:05:08things out of real love of craft. I
1:05:09think about the way I felt about aquaria
1:05:11and fish as a kid and it's just like
1:05:13pure delight. That's the word that comes
1:05:15to mind. Just delight. I want to learn
1:05:16more about it. I want to do it and tell
1:05:18people about it.
1:05:20That's the wonderful romantic picture of
1:05:23effort and progress and outcomes.
1:05:26But in reality, you probably need both.
1:05:28You need to be able to access some fear
1:05:30and sense of competition, but also
1:05:32delight in craft. You know, like Peter
1:05:35Thiel's book Zero to One, as I recall,
1:05:37defines competition as anti-creativity
1:05:40in many ways because you through
1:05:42competition, you are
1:05:45by definition changing what you're doing
1:05:47in order to outdo somebody else or
1:05:49something else. And so you're morphing
1:05:51your creation
1:05:53in order to kind of overcome something.
1:05:56Whereas if you're just purely thinking
1:05:58about something you want to grow and
1:06:00cultivate, there none of those barriers.
1:06:03In the worlds that I've been in,
1:06:05science,
1:06:07to a lesser extent podcasting and that's
1:06:09a wonderful feature of podcasting, but
1:06:11certainly in science, it is hyper
1:06:12competitive, right? Two laboratories
1:06:15working on similar things, people are
1:06:17concerned that if one publishes first,
1:06:19the other will not be able to publish,
1:06:21certainly not in as high quality a
1:06:23journal and jobs are created through
1:06:25these journal publications. Podcasting
1:06:28is actually a wonderful field um because
1:06:31let's say you and I have the same guest
1:06:32on our podcast. All it does is raise it
1:06:34in the algorithm. It's not like, you
1:06:36know, and and it's such a and so I think
1:06:38there's a lot of um collegiality and
1:06:40camaraderie in the podcast field that um
1:06:43exists in little pockets in
1:06:45science, but um science is a brutally
1:06:48competitive field,
1:06:50which doesn't mean it's anti-creative,
1:06:52but in a dream world where there's
1:06:55infinite amount of money for scientific
1:06:58research because that would better
1:06:59humanity in my in my view. Um and people
1:07:02didn't have to be competitive about
1:07:04grant dollars or publication, I think we
1:07:06would make far more progress as a
1:07:08species. So, competition fosters
1:07:12outcomes. This is clear in markets. It's
1:07:14clear in a lot of domains, but
1:07:17pure love and delight of craft and
1:07:19creativity, that's definitely the way to
1:07:21go. But in most endeavors, you got to
1:07:22have both. If sitting next to someone in
1:07:24class and realizing, okay, cuz this was
1:07:26me back when I'm thinking, okay, I I
1:07:28love this topic, but gosh, I want that
1:07:31top mark. I want that top mark on the
1:07:32distribution. Like that's and and like
1:07:35she and he are really, really good and
1:07:37I'm going to we're going to study
1:07:38together, but my god, when it comes time
1:07:40for that exam, like I'm going for it. A
1:07:42little bit of competition can can bring
1:07:44out our our best, I think. Um certainly
1:07:46in sport. But when it comes to creative
1:07:48endeavors that are really about our own
1:07:51unique contribution, I mean, you could
1:07:52tell me more about this in business
1:07:53because you're you're I don't you know,
1:07:55I have a company, but I'm not a business
1:07:57person, but I I always feel like
1:07:59competition
1:08:01can bring out more energy,
1:08:03but not more creativity.
1:08:05Yeah, and I think a big point I was
1:08:07thinking as you were talking was just
1:08:08about how much you let that new energy
1:08:10that comes from competition distract
1:08:12you.
1:08:13And this is it's the distraction that
1:08:14can destroy you because if
1:08:16Apple are going this way and they're
1:08:18building this product without the
1:08:20keyboard and without the stylus and
1:08:22that's they've got their vision and they
1:08:24see Samsung doing over there something
1:08:25over there. And if they if they divert
1:08:27from their own mission and their own
1:08:29first principles towards what someone
1:08:30else is doing, then that's when it can
1:08:32become destructive. But if it means that
1:08:33they see Samsung doing something and
1:08:35they speed up and invest more in their
1:08:36vision, then it's okay. I think that's
1:08:38and it is this dichotomy between
1:08:40competition does drive better outcomes
1:08:42for everybody that's competing, but at
1:08:44the same time, um yeah, it can harm you
1:08:47if it distracts you in a fundamental
1:08:49way. It's kind of how I think about it.
1:08:50Even with podcasting like
1:08:52you know, um
1:08:54as you were saying, there's so many
1:08:55podcasters doing so many amazing things.
1:08:56Like
1:08:57I I look at your podcast and I learn
1:08:59from it, but I know in my current we all
1:09:01know, I'm never going to be Andrew
1:09:02Huberman. Well, and I'll never be you.
1:09:04And I'll never be a Joe Rogan. I'll
1:09:05never be a Lex.
1:09:06And I admire your podcast very much and
1:09:08Joe's and Lex's. I think it's we each
1:09:10have our own unique style that we bring
1:09:11to it. Chris Williamson, you know, um
1:09:15it's
1:09:16been a lot of fun to see the unique
1:09:19flavors of podcasts crop up Yeah. and
1:09:22how similar that is to the world I grew
1:09:24up in in skateboarding, the observations
1:09:26of from the music industry that I saw
1:09:29firsthand or that, you know, Rick has
1:09:30passed along. You know,
1:09:33in the end, I think
1:09:35any creative endeavor is really about
1:09:37and here I don't want to sound
1:09:38mysterious or woo, it's about the energy
1:09:40that we bring.
1:09:41It's about
1:09:43taking our life history and bringing it
1:09:45to that thing in whatever form. We don't
1:09:47even need to tell people our life
1:09:48history. Taking our unique wiring and
1:09:51bringing it to that thing. And we can
1:09:55again, look at things through the lens
1:09:56of biology and say, well, what are we
1:09:57talking talking about when we're talking
1:09:59about energy? What is this energy thing
1:10:01that people are talking about?
1:10:03Um
1:10:03and I think it largely boils down to
1:10:06these catecholamines, the dopamine,
1:10:08epinephrine, norepinephrine cocktail
1:10:10that is setting the brain into a mode of
1:10:12attention, of motivation. We now know
1:10:14dopamine is more about motivation to
1:10:16seek rewards as opposed to feeling of
1:10:19pleasure or reward. There's a lot to be
1:10:20said about that.
1:10:22And keep in mind that these three
1:10:23neurochemicals,
1:10:25dopamine, norepinephrine, and
1:10:27epinephrine,
1:10:28have been the neurochemical cocktail by
1:10:31which humans and other mammals have
1:10:34set and pursued goals for hundreds of
1:10:37thousands of years.
1:10:39So, we don't have like a unique system,
1:10:41a unique neurochemical system for
1:10:43seeking out of mates versus food versus
1:10:46creating shelter versus creating
1:10:48technology and whole societies.
1:10:51And it's not just these three
1:10:53neurochemicals. Certainly, there are
1:10:54other things involved. Acetylcholine
1:10:56and, you know, a bunch of other things,
1:10:58neuroplasticity for that matter. But,
1:11:00it's
1:11:01clearly the case that the currency that
1:11:03the brain has set around getting us into
1:11:06forward center of mass, as I say, to
1:11:08like envision something, explore. Nope,
1:11:11not down there. This way. Ah.
1:11:13There's a scent here. And trade out an
1:11:15actual scent
1:11:16for, you know, oh, there's something
1:11:18interesting here. There's someone
1:11:19interesting here. And like exploring
1:11:21that No, that's a dead path to
1:11:23cul-de-sac. Turn around. Go Oh, here.
1:11:25And then connecting these nodes of
1:11:26progress. What's progress? Ah, there's
1:11:29kind of another surge of these
1:11:30catecholamines, which sets us in forward
1:11:32center of mass.
1:11:34You know,
1:11:35I don't want to oversimplify the
1:11:36biology, but when we talk about energy,
1:11:39um for instance, taking
1:11:41time to rest at night,
1:11:43sleep, taking time to maybe meditate a
1:11:46few minutes or do this practice that I'm
1:11:48a huge fan of non-sleep deep rest, which
1:11:50is kind of a body scan deep relaxation,
1:11:52long exhales.
1:11:54It's a practice very similar to an
1:11:56ancient practice called yoga nidra,
1:11:58which has been practiced for thousands
1:11:59of years. It's a kind of pseudo sleep.
1:12:01And we know from a really nice study
1:12:03that
1:12:04NSDR, non-sleep deep rest, aka yoga
1:12:07nidra,
1:12:08can increase the baseline levels of
1:12:11dopamine in a brain area called the
1:12:13basal ganglia, which is for
1:12:16action generation and also withholding
1:12:18action by about 60% from baseline. Just
1:12:21a a short period of doing this practice
1:12:23can re kind of re-up dopamine levels to
1:12:26a considerable extent. So, a remarkable
1:12:27study and there are others like it. So,
1:12:30what does that mean? Well, it means that
1:12:32in rest, we build up this capacity to be
1:12:35forward center of mass when we
1:12:37emerge from rest. That's why I think we
1:12:39have to sleep every 24 hours. This is
1:12:42why practices where we deliberately calm
1:12:44ourselves and still ourselves
1:12:46allow us to be more forward center of
1:12:49mass mentally and physically afterwards.
1:12:51It's kind of a duh when we hear it, we
1:12:52kind of go, oh, duh, of course, rest,
1:12:54action, rest, action. But,
1:12:57there's a lot more to it. If you start
1:12:58exploring the layers, you start
1:13:00realizing that excitement for things, um
1:13:02versus burnout. What's burnout? It's
1:13:04just trying to be forward center of mass
1:13:06for too long. It's
1:13:09you know, misuse of our dopamine
1:13:11circuitry.
1:13:12It's, you know, ignoring the fact that
1:13:14these catecholamines and dopamine in
1:13:16particular,
1:13:17they are not infinite in their
1:13:20availability, right? There's a reservoir
1:13:22of them
1:13:23that can be depleted, but it can be
1:13:24replenished as well. And one of the best
1:13:26analogies for this, um was actually
1:13:29explained to me by a guy named Dr. Kyle
1:13:30Gillette. He does some online work as a
1:13:32as a um public-facing physician,
1:13:34endocrinology in particular. And he
1:13:35said, "But, dopamine is kind of like a
1:13:37wave pool. You have this reservoir that
1:13:39can allow you to pursue things or scroll
1:13:41the internet or build businesses,
1:13:42whatever it is.
1:13:44If you are really forward center of
1:13:46mass, very intensely, you start
1:13:47generating these waves.
1:13:49And if you get big waves of dopamine and
1:13:51they crash out of the pool, you start
1:13:53depleting the reservoir. So, when I
1:13:55think about drugs of abuse like cocaine,
1:13:57which leads to huge surges in dopamine,
1:14:00or um amphetamines, huge surges in
1:14:03dopamine. What do we know about huge
1:14:04surges in dopamine? Well, after those
1:14:06huge surges, you drop below your initial
1:14:09baseline
1:14:11to a state in which the same thing
1:14:13doesn't feel as good anymore. You need
1:14:15so much more energy to get the same
1:14:17output. That's what this is, right?
1:14:19That's what this is. So, I'll put this
1:14:20on the screen for anyone. Yeah, so my
1:14:22colleague at Stanford, Dr. Anna Lembke,
1:14:25who runs our dual diagnosis addiction
1:14:28clinic and wrote the wonderful book
1:14:29Dopamine Nation, described this best.
1:14:31You know, it's sort of like a seesaw,
1:14:33but what where by you get a big peak in
1:14:36dopamine, let's say from a drug of abuse
1:14:38like cocaine. People on cocaine, it's
1:14:41all about ideas and what's next. They're
1:14:43not like, hey, let's just kick back.
1:14:44It's all about what's They In fact, they
1:14:46have a million ideas per second. Most of
1:14:47them are terrible ideas. But, they're
1:14:49very forward center of mass motivated.
1:14:52And then when the drug wears off, they
1:14:54feel very low and very depressed. The
1:14:55dopamine is actually depleted below
1:14:57baseline.
1:14:59People that work excessively, right? We
1:15:01all have different abilities to work
1:15:03out, but people that work excessively
1:15:05and abuse stimulants in order to do
1:15:06that, achieve these peaks. Is that like
1:15:08So, what would be the an an everyday
1:15:11example of that, working excessively? Do
1:15:13you mean like a pre-workout or something
1:15:15or what do you mean?
1:15:15Yeah, I'm not anti-pre-workout. Listen,
1:15:17I love to be well-rested, hydrated, have
1:15:21a nice pre-workout drink,
1:15:23maybe even a little shot of espresso,
1:15:25listen to some music, and have an
1:15:27incredible leg day workout. It's an
1:15:29amazing feeling, right? But, if you do
1:15:31that every single time, you start
1:15:33stacking all these catecholamine
1:15:36release-inducing drugs, okay? So, you're
1:15:38getting adrenaline, you're getting
1:15:39epinephrine, which is adrenaline, excuse
1:15:41me. You're getting adrenaline, you're
1:15:42getting noradrenaline, also called
1:15:44norepinephrine. You're getting dopamine
1:15:46release. You're highly motivated. You're
1:15:48in that state that everyone is seeking.
1:15:51And you try and do that 7 days a week,
1:15:52you're not going to do it. And then you
1:15:54wonder why in the afternoon, you're just
1:15:55completely cooked and you can't do any
1:15:57cognitive work. Well, your dopamine and
1:15:59other things have crashed below
1:16:01baseline. So, I think it's important to
1:16:03understand that being as I'm calling it
1:16:06forward center of mass,
1:16:08like really kind of
1:16:09motivated and pursuing goals is great,
1:16:12but most of the time, we're probably
1:16:15best off just coming off the gas pedal
1:16:17just a little bit to maintain that
1:16:21ability to continue to be forward center
1:16:23of mass. The same thing is true for
1:16:24stress. We hear stress is bad. Well,
1:16:27stress is bad, but it also sharpens your
1:16:29ability to learn, it creates energy, it
1:16:31actually boosts your immune system in
1:16:32the short term. I say,
1:16:35tolerate as much stress as you can,
1:16:38provided you still behave like a kind
1:16:41person, right? Don't say or do things
1:16:43that are unkind.
1:16:44And make sure that you still get great
1:16:46sleep at night. Most people stress,
1:16:48stress, stress, stress, run around and
1:16:50then they can't sleep at night. And then
1:16:51the next day, they're depleted. But, a
1:16:53little bit of stress is healthy. Life is
1:16:55stress, things are stressful. But again,
1:16:57you're going to be in your best state of
1:16:59mind if you're calm and alert. Alert and
1:17:01calm is the is the magic recipe and the
1:17:04ability to sleep at night. If you want
1:17:06to take a bunch of pre-workout and you
1:17:09want to listen to some loud music and
1:17:10have a great crush-it workout, great.
1:17:13But, you should probably also be able to
1:17:14train without all of that.
1:17:17If you're somebody who loves new goals
1:17:19and you, you know, you're very excited
1:17:20about travel and this and that, great.
1:17:22But, do you have to layer in 50 things
1:17:24and then you're sitting around at home
1:17:26and you're wondering why you're so bored
1:17:27when you're back home and why life is so
1:17:29depressing and you need more travel,
1:17:30more stimulation. In every domain of
1:17:32life, we see whether or not it's food or
1:17:35exercise or stimulants or sex or
1:17:39media. If you push things to the max,
1:17:43you're going to feel depleted and
1:17:45understimulated afterwards. And this
1:17:47trough below baseline, as Anna Lembke
1:17:49taught us with Dopamine Nation,
1:17:52that trough
1:17:54is a state that can last a long time.
1:17:56And it's How long? It's proportional to
1:17:58how high that peak in dopamine was. Not
1:18:01how long, but how high that peak in
1:18:02dopamine was. And when you're in that
1:18:04trough, that dopamine-depleted state,
1:18:06typically, what people do is they try
1:18:08and go out or access things that are
1:18:11going to reactivate the dopamine
1:18:13circuitry and all it does is drive them
1:18:15further and further and longer and
1:18:17longer into that trough. What's needed
1:18:19is a period of waiting, of
1:18:21non-indulgence in any of these excesses
1:18:24that allows them to return to baseline.
1:18:26We know this from
1:18:28drugs of abuse. It takes more and more
1:18:30drug to try and get what turns out to be
1:18:32less and less of a high. Most all
1:18:34addiction, most all compulsive behavior
1:18:37can be cured, essentially,
1:18:39through a period of abstinence lasting
1:18:41somewhere between 30 and 60 days, which
1:18:44to somebody who's highly motivated to
1:18:45seek that thing or do that thing, sounds
1:18:47like a an absolute horror. But, that is
1:18:50highly effective. So, for some people,
1:18:52it's work and stimulants, you know, a
1:18:54number of people taking Adderall and
1:18:55work, work, work, work, work.
1:18:57I hear from these people all the time.
1:18:59Typically, they are from the tech and
1:19:00finance world. They're like, "Why am I
1:19:02burnt out?" Well, you've been blasting
1:19:05these catecholamine
1:19:06regulated circuits for years. You need
1:19:09to just accept you're going to feel a
1:19:11little low for a week, then you're going
1:19:13to feel a little less low, and you're
1:19:14going to come back to baseline.
1:19:16And then, and only then, can you really
1:19:18get back into like full forward center
1:19:21of mass. But, at that point, you can
1:19:23introduce, you know, I I do think there
1:19:25is a clinical use case for certain ADHD
1:19:28meds, which are amphetamine. There are
1:19:30certain people that need those meds.
1:19:32Other people have driven themselves into
1:19:34this dopamine trough, and so they're
1:19:36seeking out anything and everything to
1:19:38get them out of that trough, when really
1:19:39what they need to do is stay away from
1:19:41all that stuff and just wait. Just wait.
1:19:44or something. Go on holiday.
1:19:46Try and find reward in smaller things.
1:19:49Um, you know, this is why dogs are
1:19:50wonderful in simpler things. And if that
1:19:53sounds heavy and dull to you, chances
1:19:55are you're a bit in the dopamine
1:19:59uh
1:20:00loop. Um, I've been in these loops
1:20:03before. They're hard to exit, but once
1:20:04you exit them, you look back on them and
1:20:06you go, "What was I thinking?" Well, you
1:20:08were in a different state. You're kind
1:20:10of a different animal when you're in
1:20:11pursuit. I think this is so unbelievably
1:20:14important, because it really helps
1:20:15people to understand why they do what
1:20:17they do. And before you doing the
1:20:19research when you coming here today, and
1:20:21before understanding some of this stuff,
1:20:22I thought dopamine was
1:20:24I don't know, it was this thing that
1:20:25came in these hits maybe, and if I did
1:20:27something I got ahead of it, then I
1:20:28returned to baseline. If I did something
1:20:30again stimulating, I'd go ahead of it,
1:20:32then I returned to baseline. But what
1:20:33actually is happening is I'm doing
1:20:36something that's stimulating in some
1:20:37way. I'm getting this huge peak, then
1:20:39I'm crashing below baseline for a while.
1:20:42And when I'm below baseline, I'm
1:20:44That's when I'm most likely to want to
1:20:46do something that's going to give me a
1:20:47hit again. That's right.
1:20:48And when I saw that, it reminded me of
1:20:50the CGI monitor, the continuous glucose
1:20:53monitor that I wore. Because it was a
1:20:55very similar pattern. If I had a lot of
1:20:57sugar, I had a big peak, then I crashed
1:20:58below my baseline.
1:20:59Right. That's a great observation. It is
1:21:01the perfect analogy. Perfect analogy,
1:21:03because these regulatory systems are all
1:21:05about trying to reg maintain
1:21:07homeostasis. We all hear about we learn
1:21:08about homeostasis, like the desire for
1:21:11balance. The The The human body and
1:21:13human physiology is actually geared more
1:21:15towards something called allostasis,
1:21:16which involves kind of stress
1:21:17modulation. But without getting into too
1:21:19many details, you know, these are
1:21:21dynamic systems.
1:21:23Meaning brain systems that are designed
1:21:25to allow us to overcome challenges if
1:21:28need be, right? This is why I always
1:21:29push back on the idea that, you know,
1:21:30stress crashes your immune system. You
1:21:32know what crashes your immune system?
1:21:34Being very, very stressed, working a
1:21:35lot, a lot, caretaking for someone else,
1:21:38and then stopping. You always get sick
1:21:39when you stop.
1:21:40Why? Because actually stress activates
1:21:43the immune system. Makes sense that it
1:21:45would do that evolutionarily, right? And
1:21:47then when we rest,
1:21:49boom, our immune system kind of relaxes
1:21:51a little bit, and then we succumb to
1:21:52that that, you know, that bacteria or
1:21:54virus. So, what does it mean? It means
1:21:56that we should probably learn to
1:21:58modulate. It's like driving a car.
1:22:01Anytime we feel that we're headed toward
1:22:03or in a peak state, we should probably
1:22:05kind of like lean back off that state
1:22:07just a tiny bit. Just a tiny bit,
1:22:09especially if that peak state is coming
1:22:11by way of pharmacology or some extreme
1:22:13circumstance. Just back off a little
1:22:15bit, maybe a lot, okay?
1:22:17So, when we do that, we learn to master
1:22:20the transition states between these what
1:22:23I'm referring to as forward center of
1:22:24mass, flat-footed, or back on my heels.
1:22:26It's a term I learned from a former Navy
1:22:28SEAL operator. He said, "With anything
1:22:30in life, you can either be back on your
1:22:31heels, like really challenged,
1:22:33flat-footed, kind of like calm and
1:22:35forward, or forward center of mass, like
1:22:37full tilt." I think most people would do
1:22:39very well to learn to master the
1:22:40transition states between waking and
1:22:44going to sleep, right? Many people can't
1:22:45fall asleep.
1:22:47Many people just kind of like can't turn
1:22:49it off. You can learn how to do that by
1:22:51doing things like non-sleep deep rest,
1:22:53some long exhale breathing, simple
1:22:55self-directed zero-cost tools that help
1:22:58adjust your autonomic nervous system to
1:23:00be more what we call parasympathetic,
1:23:01more rest and digest. Just long exhales.
1:23:04Might not work the first time, but over
1:23:06time these become very effective tools
1:23:08to self-direct the shift from forward
1:23:10center of mass to flat-footed, just kind
1:23:12of laying back, back on your heels, and
1:23:14there you go, you're off to sleep. When
1:23:15you wake up in the morning, some people
1:23:17are just depleted. Maybe you didn't
1:23:18sleep enough, but learning to get
1:23:20forward center of mass shouldn't
1:23:22require, you know, excess caffeine and
1:23:25stimulants and super loud music and uh
1:23:29you know, a shocking text or email.
1:23:31Ideally, you can transition pretty
1:23:32quickly into being forward center of
1:23:34mass, but not full tilt forward center
1:23:36of mass. Why do I say this? I think for
1:23:38anyone who seeks to be successful in any
1:23:40domain, academics, business, creative
1:23:42endeavors, whatever,
1:23:44if you want to have a long arc life and
1:23:46a long arc career,
1:23:47you
1:23:49really strive to control these
1:23:51transition states. And when I say
1:23:53control, all it really takes is paying
1:23:55attention to them.
1:23:56And paying attention to the fact that
1:23:57yes, some people just have inherently
1:23:59more energy. They can do every single
1:24:01workout at max output, then shower,
1:24:03they're talking in the gym, then they're
1:24:04off to the Some people are like that.
1:24:05Some people,
1:24:06like myself, if I give 100% to something
1:24:09in the morning, by the afternoon, I'm a
1:24:10little bit depleted. So, I require a 10
1:24:14or 20-minute non-sleep deep rest or a
1:24:16nap or just some quiet long exhale
1:24:18breathing, maybe a little bit of
1:24:19caffeine, which I'm drinking now. I
1:24:20mean, there's nothing wrong with healthy
1:24:22stimulants, provided they're consumed in
1:24:24moderation. Maybe an energy drink, those
1:24:26can be great, too,
1:24:28for some people. And then,
1:24:30you know, really going like full tilt,
1:24:32focusing one's attention. And then
1:24:34afterwards, taking a few moments, just
1:24:36moments to downshift. I think we hear so
1:24:39much about the power of meditation or
1:24:40non-sleep deep rest or ice baths. What
1:24:42do What do cold plunges and cold showers
1:24:44do? They stimulate the release of what?
1:24:46The catecholamines, dopamine,
1:24:48epinephrine, norepinephrine, long
1:24:49duration release. That's why it's
1:24:51useful, in my opinion. For all the
1:24:53debate about deliberate cold exposure,
1:24:55does it increase metabolism? Does it
1:24:57not? The answer seems to be probably not
1:24:58much. But it's absolutely clear that it
1:25:02causes a huge increase in adrenaline,
1:25:05dopamine, and norepinephrine that are
1:25:08very long-lasting, and that makes you
1:25:11feel great, especially when you get out
1:25:12of the cold. And I think that's the
1:25:14value of it. It also saves you on your
1:25:15heating bill. Like you don't have to
1:25:17have a cold plunge, you take a cold
1:25:18shower. Nobody likes it, but the point
1:25:20is you get out and you feel different.
1:25:22It's a state shift. So, that's great,
1:25:25but you don't want to do it to excess,
1:25:27because then, you know, for instance,
1:25:29people always say, "How long should I go
1:25:30in the cold plunge or cold shower?" And
1:25:32I say, "Do it the minimum amount, so
1:25:34that you get the effect that you're
1:25:35seeking, which is to be more alert and
1:25:37motivated." I have a friend, he did 30
1:25:39minutes, for some reason, naked. He
1:25:41said, "I did 30 minutes naked in the
1:25:42cold plunge, and then I got sick, and
1:25:43I'm feeling really low." And I'm like,
1:25:44"Because you did 30 minutes." I mean, I
1:25:46don't know about the naked part, what
1:25:47that had to do with it. He had to throw
1:25:48that in there, he's kind of an extreme
1:25:50guy. And
1:25:52I said, "How about 1 minute? How about
1:25:5530 seconds? How about don't even pay
1:25:56attention to the time. Just get in and
1:25:59stay in as long as until you want to get
1:26:02out, and then push through that barrier,
1:26:04and then get out." That might be a
1:26:06minute, might be 3 minutes.
1:26:08You know, protect yourself, be safe, but
1:26:10just learn to overcome some challenge
1:26:13and then get out. You know, we have this
1:26:14fixation that more is better, and more
1:26:18is not better. You want the minimal
1:26:20effective dose, maybe a little bit more,
1:26:22because we don't know where minimal is.
1:26:23People say, "How many sets in the gym?"
1:26:25Is it, you know, now it's like all about
1:26:26the volume hypertrophy or like I've
1:26:28always fairly low recovery quotient. So,
1:26:31for me, I like to do couple warm-ups, a
1:26:33few hard sets, two or three hard sets,
1:26:35another exercise, two or three hard
1:26:36sets. That's it for that muscle group,
1:26:38move on. People always say, "Well,
1:26:40volume is where it's Okay, great, but
1:26:41when I do 16 to 20 sets per week per
1:26:44muscle group, I'll tell you, I I'm
1:26:46depleted. It doesn't work for me. And I
1:26:49sort of um
1:26:50Well, I'll just be honest, I kind of
1:26:51chuckle at the exercise scientists who
1:26:53say, "Well, this is the way it is in
1:26:54this study." Great. That's not how it
1:26:56works for me. And even though I'm a
1:26:58scientist and I trust data, I also trust
1:27:00my own experience. And no one's going to
1:27:02tell me that it's placebo, because it's
1:27:04what's worked for me. So, I think that
1:27:06you have to find what your capabilities
1:27:07are, and I do think if you look at dog
1:27:10breeds, of which I'm obsessed by,
1:27:12if you go to a dog show, which everyone
1:27:14should go to a dog show once, but don't
1:27:16watch the show, go behind the show where
1:27:19you see all the different dog breeds.
1:27:20What you'll see is what I saw the first
1:27:21time I did that.
1:27:23You have dogs where they're wagging
1:27:24their tail all the time. They're super
1:27:26excited, they're alert, you can see
1:27:27their eyes, right? They're just
1:27:29bright-eyed.
1:27:30You can see the Great Danes.
1:27:33They're super still. And then my
1:27:35favorite breed, and the reason I own
1:27:37them, is the bulldog. The s- essence of
1:27:41economy of effort. They don't even lift
1:27:43their head off the ground. You walk
1:27:45over, you can pet them, they'll like
1:27:46look up at you, they might wink. Very
1:27:48still animals. Very powerful, but very
1:27:50still animals. Now, I'm not wired like
1:27:52that, as you're probably getting the
1:27:53impression. I have a little bit more
1:27:54spontaneous movement, etc. So, I need a
1:27:56lot of mental and physical stimulation
1:27:58in order to be happy, in order to feel
1:28:00fulfilled. So, for me, there was a lot
1:28:03of work, and I still do a lot of work in
1:28:04order to learn how to downshift, take it
1:28:06down, become a good sleeper, become a
1:28:08good resetter, reset myself during the
1:28:10middle of the day with things like
1:28:11non-sleep deep rest, which for me has
1:28:13been one of the most powerful tools, or
1:28:15long exhale breathing, to just
1:28:17bring myself down. Other people, they
1:28:20tend to have a little bit less energy
1:28:21than life demands of them. So, they need
1:28:22to do a bit more cold shower, a little
1:28:25bit more caffeine, but then those people
1:28:27probably need a little bit more rest.
1:28:29They're like the bulldogs of life. I
1:28:31think even though we're all the same
1:28:32species, just like dogs, there's a lot
1:28:33of variation there. So, you have to know
1:28:36thyself, as the oracle said.
1:28:38Understanding a little bit about the
1:28:39catecholamines, understanding that
1:28:41certain things like exercise,
1:28:43deliberate cold exposure,
1:28:45stimulants like caffeine and
1:28:47prescription drugs like Adderall, etc.,
1:28:49s- powerfully cause the release of these
1:28:52catecholamines, dopamine, epinephrine,
1:28:54and norepinephrine, leading to big
1:28:55increases in energy and focus, but then
1:28:57always, always, always there's a cost, a
1:28:59trough that follows. Accept that. Relax
1:29:03through it.
1:29:04Then return to baseline and then go
1:29:06forward. Or avoid those things
1:29:09altogether. I'm not telling people what
1:29:10to do. Obviously, the prescription drug
1:29:12thing in particular can be, you know,
1:29:13problematic for some people, even and
1:29:16And certainly, I'm not a fan of drugs of
1:29:17abuse like cocaine amphetamine.
1:29:19Absolutely categorically never done
1:29:20them, never will.
1:29:23And then other people who tend to veer
1:29:25toward, you know, being hyper-activated.
1:29:28A lot of spontaneous movement. These
1:29:29people tend to be a little bit thinner,
1:29:31a little bit leaner, or just have a ton
1:29:32of natural energy.
1:29:34Um these people should really learn to
1:29:35incorporate more kind of
1:29:37what I would call calming and relaxing
1:29:39practices. Maybe a bit more sauna than
1:29:41cold plunge. Maybe don't crank the sauna
1:29:43to 2 20. You know, I find myself doing
1:29:46that. I'm like, just relax. Like enjoy
1:29:48the sauna. And so, I think the key to a
1:29:50good life and a productive life is again
1:29:52to learn to master the transition
1:29:54states, understand some of the biology,
1:29:56and to really
1:29:59know yourself not just your natural
1:30:02tendency more bulldog-like versus, you
1:30:04know, uh I don't know pitbulls always
1:30:05have their tail going the last
1:30:06spontaneous movement. Uh there are other
1:30:08breeds as well. But also know that on
1:30:10any given day you may be more or less
1:30:13rested. You might be more or less
1:30:14depleted from life experience. And kind
1:30:16of recognize where you're at and figure
1:30:18out what's optimal for that day.
1:30:21In fact, I forget who the guy is. He's
1:30:23on Instagram and and there are a lot of
1:30:24self-help account out at then there are
1:30:26a lot of self-help accounts out there,
1:30:28but one of the best things that um I've
1:30:30heard recently and I tried to
1:30:31incorporate it in uh into my life. In
1:30:33fact, it's in my notebook is when I wake
1:30:35up in the morning I sort of take stock
1:30:37of where I am in terms of how rested I
1:30:39am. I certainly take stock of what I
1:30:40need to do that day. And then I ask,
1:30:43what's something that I can do to make
1:30:45my life that day and the life of others
1:30:51better.
1:30:52Sometimes that means rest a little bit
1:30:53more. Sometimes that means push a little
1:30:55bit more. Sometimes that means call a
1:30:57relative that you haven't spoken to. But
1:30:59thinking about how to make things better
1:31:00on the time scale of a day
1:31:03for oneself and for others, I think is
1:31:05what's manageable. And it's what's
1:31:06realistic. And it takes this whole
1:31:08concept of protocols and biohacking and
1:31:10prescription drugs and supplements and
1:31:12workouts and it and it brings a
1:31:14real-world perspective to it.
1:31:16So, I think we're living in the um in
1:31:18the time of
1:31:19kind of um
1:31:21almost avatars of these different
1:31:23things. Like I think about David Goggins
1:31:24who I know well I've well at
1:31:27from the perspective of co-worker,
1:31:29right? Where I'm like I consider him a
1:31:30friend, but we've never hung out outside
1:31:32of the work context. But I first met
1:31:34David back in 2016. And I'll tell you
1:31:36he's always that way. At least when I've
1:31:38interacted with him.
1:31:39He's
1:31:41always been, you know,
1:31:42forward center of mass. He was late in
1:31:45the day on a work This was a thing in
1:31:47Silicon Valley. He was down in San Jose.
1:31:49Um Santa Clara San Jose area. In I
1:31:51believe it was 2016 and we had been
1:31:54working all day in this part of this
1:31:56consult for this company.
1:31:57And in the afternoon, you know, there
1:31:59was like, do we take a break? Should we
1:32:00push? He's like, oh, we push. We're
1:32:02going to do this. And I thought, wow,
1:32:03like this guy's intense. And he was
1:32:05changing cuz he was going to run to the
1:32:06airport, but not
1:32:08run to the airport in an Uber
1:32:10or drive to the airport. He meant run to
1:32:13the airport.
1:32:14And he did. So, you know, he's forward
1:32:16center of mass. He clearly has the
1:32:17energy or he's found the energy. Can you
1:32:20train that? Can you raise your sort of
1:32:22baseline dopamine level? Um Or are they
1:32:24two separate questions?
1:32:27It's a great question. I don't know that
1:32:28we have the answer. I think you can if
1:32:30you become more economical about
1:32:33whatever
1:32:35dopamine or other neurochemicals you
1:32:37happen to harbor inside. We know there's
1:32:39a lot of genetic and individual
1:32:41variation to these things.
1:32:42You know,
1:32:43there's a joke among parents, right?
1:32:45Like how they come out is how they stay.
1:32:47Like the the mellow kid, the mellow baby
1:32:48that didn't cry much. The happy baby
1:32:50remains the happy person. I you know,
1:32:52there are circumstances that can alter
1:32:53that. Versus the fussy baby that's
1:32:55always fussy as even as an adult. You
1:32:57know, parents talk this way, but parents
1:32:58say all sorts of things. Um but you
1:33:01know, I know people for instance like
1:33:02Rick Rubin for for instance who is
1:33:06very high energy, but very calm. It's
1:33:10part of Rick's magic. He knows how to
1:33:12regulate and control his energy. He has
1:33:14this uncanny capacity to get near things
1:33:17in particular um art, music, and to
1:33:21experience them, really feel them, but
1:33:24not get absorbed by it.
1:33:25Not feel
1:33:27at least to my my knowledge depleted by
1:33:29it. Some people get kind of absorbed by
1:33:31things and then depleted. Is it like the
1:33:33introvert extrovert conversation as
1:33:35well? Because two people can be in the
1:33:36same room and I I mean I'm I consider
1:33:38myself to be a bit of an extrovert
1:33:40sorry, introvert where if I stand in a
1:33:41room for 2 3 hours doing small talk, I I
1:33:45I the way I describe it is like my brain
1:33:47feels fried. Mhm. Whereas my assistant
1:33:49Sophie, it's like you've poured fuel
1:33:51into her. Yeah. Uh I'm similar to you
1:33:54and um I have an ex-girlfriend who loved
1:33:57parties. She would just get so much
1:33:59energy from parties. And I like certain
1:34:00parties, but I like the the small
1:34:02conversation I might have at a party is
1:34:04um
1:34:04so that resonates with me. I think we
1:34:07can shift
1:34:09well,
1:34:10to answer the introvert extrovert
1:34:11question,
1:34:13I do think that some people get energy
1:34:15from social interactions, other people
1:34:16less so. But I know people who are quite
1:34:18quiet who like social interactions.
1:34:21They're just more an observer in those
1:34:23interactions as opposed to a
1:34:24participant. The introvert extrovert
1:34:26thing also, at least my understanding of
1:34:28the science is that it depends a bit on
1:34:30how quickly you fill up
1:34:32with social engagement. Like I I like a
1:34:34good party, but after a couple hours I'm
1:34:37like done. You know, and other people
1:34:38they can just go go go go go go. They
1:34:40get more energy from it.
1:34:43I think,
1:34:44you know,
1:34:45we think of Goggins as kind of a an
1:34:47iconic example because he is of somebody
1:34:49who is capable of pushing himself
1:34:51regardless of what the internal
1:34:53narratives might be. That's my sense
1:34:55having spoken to him about it on my
1:34:56podcast and observed him on social media
1:34:58and other podcasts.
1:35:00Some people like Jocko Willink embody
1:35:02the
1:35:03don't even think about it. You do it
1:35:04because it's 4:30 in the morning and at
1:35:064:30 in the morning you work out. Like
1:35:08don't think, do.
1:35:09Um whereas when I think of David, I
1:35:11think of many things, but in particular
1:35:14about overcoming the voice in the mind
1:35:17that's trying to pull you down and
1:35:18defeating that. In fact, having multiple
1:35:20representations of self in the brain,
1:35:22which is a fascinating thing unto
1:35:23itself. And then when I think about
1:35:25Rick,
1:35:26I think, you know, Rick is I
1:35:28iconic in my mind for his sense of
1:35:31creativity, his ability to sense
1:35:33what is truly new and unique. He has
1:35:36incredible taste, right? To really be
1:35:39able to sense like this is new and
1:35:40different and exciting. And he seems to
1:35:42understand
1:35:44without trying to seek what people are
1:35:46going to like, what people inevitably
1:35:48love.
1:35:50So, that's his one of his many
1:35:52superpowers.
1:35:53And everyone has their superpower. Those
1:35:56are just so extremes. I think of Lex
1:35:58Friedman as
1:36:00somebody who
1:36:01is so thoughtful.
1:36:04And
1:36:04I mean, I don't think people really
1:36:05understand just how hard Lex thinks
1:36:08about the tragedies of the world, the
1:36:11darkness in the world, but also the love
1:36:13that's in the world. I mean, he really
1:36:16like hyper-affiliates
1:36:18with what's happening
1:36:19in his mind. And he's able to really
1:36:21like absorb himself in that. And you can
1:36:23feel like his his like he gets right up
1:36:26next to the fire, like right up next to
1:36:28these things.
1:36:29And
1:36:30I think he represents
1:36:32kind of iconic example of
1:36:35an explorer who will look anywhere even
1:36:37if people are going to
1:36:39give him a hard time for it. But I think
1:36:40mostly people celebrate him for it.
1:36:42You know, so I think you know, different
1:36:44people have different lenses on life and
1:36:46different capacities. I think if one
1:36:48wants to increase their baseline level
1:36:50of dopamine, I think it's important to
1:36:53regulate those peaks and troughs.
1:36:56I'm not
1:36:57a believer in like never having peaks in
1:36:59dopamine. A great wedding party. Like
1:37:01I've been to some weddings where you
1:37:02just like partied all night. Or great
1:37:05concerts. I'm actually a huge fan. It's
1:37:07kind of a
1:37:08uh
1:37:09genre of music I don't know much about,
1:37:10but I've always loved that band James.
1:37:12Do you know the band? We are James. Uh
1:37:14it's so good. Okay, I'm going to lose
1:37:15punk points for saying this, but
1:37:18best live shows ever. Just the best live
1:37:21shows I've ever seen. And I know there
1:37:23are and I and I know there are a lot of
1:37:24different ideas about best live shows
1:37:26based on genres of music. I just It's
1:37:28like the best party you've ever been to.
1:37:31Mhm. And
1:37:32I
1:37:33get a lift in energy that lasts 2 3 days
1:37:36from that. I don't consume any
1:37:37substances at those shows. They happen
1:37:41very seldom, but when I've gone for 2 or
1:37:423 days I feel like a changed person.
1:37:44It's a market shift in neurochemical
1:37:46state. And I don't feel a trough
1:37:48afterwards. So, I want to be very clear.
1:37:50There are certain things like
1:37:52celebrations, concerts, they seem to
1:37:55give us these big surges in
1:37:56neurochemicals, but they don't leave us
1:37:59depleted. And I'm very intrigued by
1:38:00these experiences.
1:38:02Because when I look to some examples, I
1:38:05have some friends who've been very
1:38:06successful in the tech sector and
1:38:07finance sector. They make a lot of
1:38:09money. And I always worry about them
1:38:11afterwards. Inevitably they end up
1:38:14depressed, not knowing what they want to
1:38:15do. So, I always encourage them to keep
1:38:17working. In fact, the happiest people in
1:38:20tech and finance are the ones that keep
1:38:21working even after they get rich.
1:38:24So, the people I see who are very happy
1:38:26are the people who
1:38:28take stock of their natural levels of
1:38:30energy, curiosity, motivation. You know,
1:38:32we could say dopamine, but that's kind
1:38:34of a surrogate for a bunch of other
1:38:36things. And it's incomplete, right?
1:38:38There are other chemicals involved. But
1:38:40for sake of conversation, we could say
1:38:41dopamine, catecholamines, epinephrine.
1:38:44And they sort of know what they're
1:38:45capable of on a consistent basis. I
1:38:48think one of the best pieces of advice
1:38:49that I ever got was from a neurologist
1:38:51by the name of Bob Knight when I was a
1:38:52graduate student. He said, figure out
1:38:54how much work you can
1:38:57over the course of the next 4 to 5 years
1:38:59on a consistent basis cuz it's going to
1:39:01change as you get older. Might not even
1:39:03go down.
1:39:05So, for instance, I know that I can work
1:39:07a good solid 12 hours a day.
1:39:10That's me. 12 hours a day.
1:39:12Five maybe six days a week, but I like
1:39:14one full day off per week. I I just like
1:39:17that. Typically, it's Sunday for me.
1:39:19I'll do some exercise and some other
1:39:21things, but if I try and go 15 hours a
1:39:24day or 12 hours a day 7 days a week,
1:39:27I'm going to run aground. For other
1:39:29people, they need to work less. And now
1:39:30some people will say, "Okay, but do you
1:39:32have kids and this and that?" I'm not
1:39:33saying what work means. It could be
1:39:35career, it could be family, or both, but
1:39:38I'm not somebody who has an infinite
1:39:39amount of energy, but I have a lot of
1:39:41energy. If you have less energy, you can
1:39:43do things like try and get great sleep,
1:39:45try and eat
1:39:47as well as you possibly can. You may
1:39:48have to do more to get more energy, but
1:39:50sort of have to accept your own
1:39:52um kind of baseline state.
1:39:55And I think
1:39:56I certainly know many people who are
1:39:57like mellower, calmer,
1:40:00have {quote} {unquote} less energy.
1:40:01They're just more efficient with that
1:40:03energy. They place it correctly.
1:40:05They're not wasting their energy. I know
1:40:08people that can scroll Instagram all the
1:40:09time, talk about what's going on on
1:40:10Twitter, watch three podcast, program,
1:40:13and do a million things, and like
1:40:15they're fine. So, I think we have to
1:40:16know where our groove is, and that we
1:40:19can deviate from that about 15 to 20%,
1:40:22but anything more extreme than that,
1:40:24we're going to end up in trouble. I
1:40:26think a lot of the reason why people are
1:40:27curious about dopamine is because for
1:40:29ultimately, they want to be more
1:40:31productive or effective at some goal
1:40:32they have in their life. So, it might be
1:40:34building a business, it could be some I
1:40:36could be a podcast, whatever. So, taking
1:40:37everything you know about dopamine and
1:40:39how it works, if you were giving me
1:40:41advice on how I could be a better
1:40:43entrepreneur, podcaster, whatever, um
1:40:47the first thing I got from you was
1:40:48really about this idea of transitioning
1:40:49between states, and also allowing time
1:40:51for my reserves to replenish after a
1:40:54high dopamine activity. Mhm. Um is there
1:40:57anything else that I should be thinking
1:40:58about? Yeah, so we could um
1:41:00operationalize this in a very clear way.
1:41:03Get enough sleep for you. For some
1:41:05people, it's 6 hours, for some people,
1:41:06it's 8 hours. I'd like to dispel the
1:41:08myth, even though my friend Matt Walker
1:41:09will probably get upset at me for saying
1:41:11this, not everyone needs 8 or 9 hours of
1:41:13sleep.
1:41:14Okay? I got 6 last night. Okay? I
1:41:16actually went to bed at midnight last
1:41:17night. Oh, excuse me, I got 6 hours and
1:41:1945 minutes last night. I went to bed at
1:41:21midnight, which is kind of late for me.
1:41:23Woke up at 6:45.
1:41:25But, get enough sleep. If you wake up in
1:41:27the morning and you can't get more sleep
1:41:29for whatever reason, can't fall back
1:41:31asleep, or you have to get out of bed,
1:41:33if you do not feel rested, I recommend
1:41:36doing a 10- or 20-minute non-sleep deep
1:41:38rest or yoga nidra protocol. They are
1:41:40available zero cost on YouTube. You
1:41:42could put NSDR my name if you want to
1:41:44listen to me do one. You could put NSDR
1:41:47Kelly Boys does wonderful yoga nidras.
1:41:49She has a very pleasant voice if you
1:41:51prefer a female voice.
1:41:52There's some wonderful yoga nidras by a
1:41:54woman named Kamini Desai. Anyway, these
1:41:57are all zero cost scripts that are
1:41:58available on YouTube.
1:41:59What is that? So, you um so, non-sleep
1:42:01deep rest
1:42:03Cuz you did one today. You did one
1:42:04today.
1:42:05I did one today on the way here. Yeah.
1:42:07Here's what we know it does. Replenishes
1:42:08baseline levels of dopamine in the basal
1:42:11ganglia. Prepares you for action, both
1:42:13mental and physical action.
1:42:15Can indeed help offset some of the sleep
1:42:18that maybe you didn't get, but you
1:42:20needed.
1:42:21We know that the brain goes into a kind
1:42:23of pseudo sleep in this state.
1:42:25And there's also some evidence that yoga
1:42:27nidra and similar practices can improve
1:42:30rates of learning. Okay, so that's sort
1:42:32of the the benefits.
1:42:34What is it? It involves what most people
1:42:36will call meditation, but it's different
1:42:38than meditation. You lie down. You could
1:42:40do it seated as well, but you lie down,
1:42:42eyes closed, and you do long exhale
1:42:44breathing.
1:42:46When we exhale, we actually slow our
1:42:48heart rate down. I could talk about how
1:42:49this is this is through respiratory
1:42:51sinus arrhythmia.
1:42:53This is a relationship between the vagus
1:42:54nerve and the beating of the heart, but
1:42:57in any case, when we inhale,
1:42:59our heart actually speeds up its beat
1:43:02slightly, and when we exhale, it slows
1:43:04down its beat slightly. So, it involves
1:43:06a lot of long exhale breathing.
1:43:08It involves a body scan where you
1:43:10deliberately relax different aspects of
1:43:13your body. So, your first your feet,
1:43:15then your legs, then your hands. It's
1:43:17sort of a body scan of sorts with long
1:43:18exhale breathing, and it takes you into
1:43:20a state that's pseudo sleep. You're
1:43:22somewhere between sleep and awake.
1:43:24Now, the beauty of NSDR and yoga nidra
1:43:27is that
1:43:28part of the instruction at the beginning
1:43:30is to stay awake. Now, if you fall
1:43:32asleep, it's okay. Just make sure you
1:43:34set an alarm if you have to go to work
1:43:35or do something else. But,
1:43:38by staying awake,
1:43:40while being very relaxed, it seems that
1:43:43the nervous system can continue to stay
1:43:45in a sleep-like state enough that you
1:43:47replenish some of these neurochemicals
1:43:49that prepare you for cognitive and
1:43:50physical action.
1:43:52Now, there are 10-minute NSDRs, there
1:43:54are 20-minute NSDRs, there are even
1:43:56hour-long yoga nidras and things of that
1:43:58sort. So, it depends on how much time
1:43:59you have before you need to get up. So,
1:44:01if you sleep well the night before, you
1:44:03wake up after 6-8 hours, and you're
1:44:04ready to go, boom, go.
1:44:06But, if you're not, I highly recommend
1:44:08doing a 10-, 20-, or 30-minute NSDR
1:44:11practice. You will find that you will be
1:44:13far more rested. You will feel far more
1:44:17mentally and physically vigorous when
1:44:18you emerge from that. It's remarkable.
1:44:20And Matt Walker's laboratory and I are
1:44:24gearing up to do some studies on this to
1:44:26figure out exactly what's happening. Is
1:44:27the brain really going into sleep, or is
1:44:29it something, you know, entirely
1:44:31different? We don't quite know yet.
1:44:32In any event,
1:44:34it most certainly works, and
1:44:37soon we'll know the exact mechanism in
1:44:38the brain, but this dopamine re- but
1:44:40this re-upping of dopamine is very, very
1:44:42clear from the existing studies.
1:44:45So, what are you doing there? You're
1:44:46essentially filling the reservoir for
1:44:48the day of activities. Okay?
1:44:50Then, I recommend hydration, which has a
1:44:53profound effect on energy levels. So, 16
1:44:56to 32 oz of water.
1:44:59People debate, drink out of plastic or
1:45:00don't drink out of plastic, do you have
1:45:02to purify your water, etc. You know,
1:45:03listen, it depends on budget and
1:45:05interest and level of paranoia. I drink
1:45:08a filtered water. I tend to drink out of
1:45:11ceramic or glass, but I am somebody who
1:45:14will occasionally drink out of a plastic
1:45:16water bottle. I'm I'm not neurotic about
1:45:18that sort of thing, but look, if you
1:45:19are, fine. And we could all do well to
1:45:21limit the amount of plastic waste in the
1:45:23oceans. So, there you go.
1:45:25Hydrate.
1:45:27Then, some people, like myself, do very
1:45:29well to get some exercise and sunlight,
1:45:33ideally simultaneously, but certainly
1:45:35get some sunlight
1:45:37and exercise prior to caffeine. Some
1:45:39people do, some people don't. Okay?
1:45:42I also understand and totally support
1:45:44people who just want their coffee or tea
1:45:46first thing in the morning. There's no
1:45:47rule that says that you can't do that.
1:45:49But, for me, what I would do is I'd get
1:45:51up, use the restroom if you need to,
1:45:53hydrate, and then get some bright light
1:45:56in your eyes, ideally from sunlight
1:45:57first thing in the morning. Why? Well,
1:46:00there's a whole story about circadian
1:46:01biology here that I could tell you, but
1:46:04I've done that many times before.
1:46:06Suffice to say that getting bright
1:46:08light, ideally from sunlight in your
1:46:10eyes, even through cloud cover. So, if
1:46:12you're in the UK, even through cloud
1:46:13cover,
1:46:14increases the amount of cortisol release
1:46:16in your brain and body markedly.
1:46:19That is a good, healthy increase in
1:46:21cortisol that is associated with the
1:46:23transition to waking up. So, we know
1:46:26that bright light in the morning,
1:46:27especially from sunlight, increases
1:46:28daytime mood, focus, and alertness, and
1:46:30it will improve your sleep later that
1:46:33night. Can I ask then, cuz I woke up in
1:46:35a hotel this morning, and because of
1:46:36you, I now think about sunlight a lot.
1:46:38So, I woke up, and I have a balcony in
1:46:40the hotel, but I can't see the sun, cuz
1:46:43the sun is on the other side of the
1:46:44hotel. Right. So, you're west-facing in
1:46:45the morning, and it's coming up in the
1:46:47east. So, here's the ideal circumstance.
1:46:48You go outside, you take your sunglasses
1:46:51off. Eyeglasses and contacts are fine,
1:46:53even if they have UV protection. You
1:46:55face east. It's a clear morning. The sun
1:46:58is there.
1:46:59Maybe it's even rising across the
1:47:01horizon, and you watch it for 5-10
1:47:03minutes, and then you go back inside and
1:47:04carry about your day. Here's the
1:47:06realistic situation. You wake up, you're
1:47:08in a hotel or an apartment, you've got
1:47:09things to do, your phone is on, etc.
1:47:12What do you do? Get out onto the
1:47:14balcony, get some natural light. The
1:47:15ambient light, as we say, is still far
1:47:17brighter outside, even on an overcast
1:47:19day, than it would be indoors with the
1:47:21brightest possible overhead lights. Now,
1:47:24there are seasonal affective disorder
1:47:26lights, so-called SAD lights, that are
1:47:28designed to generate 10,000 lux or more,
1:47:30and simulate sunlight. There's really no
1:47:32simulation for sunlight, but those
1:47:34special lights are a special
1:47:36circumstance.
1:47:37Here's what I know for sure, and
1:47:39everyone will agree, that it's much
1:47:40brighter outside, even on an overcast
1:47:42morning, than it is at night.
1:47:45Okay? You can see, even on an overcast
1:47:47day, typically without a flashlight.
1:47:50That tells you there's a lot of photons,
1:47:51a lot of light energy outside. So, the
1:47:54best thing to do is just get outside,
1:47:55especially on overcast days, and get
1:47:57some ambient light in your eyes. When I
1:48:00say view morning sunlight as soon as
1:48:02possible after waking up, two questions
1:48:04always emerge. First is, what happens if
1:48:05I wake up before the sun comes out?
1:48:07Well, listen, unless you have powers
1:48:08that I'm not aware of, you're going to
1:48:09have to wait for the sun to come out.
1:48:11Okay? I just don't have any way to make
1:48:12it rise any faster for you. So, and if
1:48:15you do, please like email me and let me
1:48:17know how that's done. But,
1:48:19the point here is that on an overcast
1:48:22day, or even if you're not looking in
1:48:24the direction that the sun happens to be
1:48:26rising,
1:48:27you're still getting sunlight. The
1:48:29photon energy is what arrives at your
1:48:31eyes, eventually triggers activation of
1:48:34cells in the neural retina, this
1:48:36pie-crust-like tissue that lines the
1:48:37back of your eyes, and signals to your
1:48:39brain it's time to wake up.
1:48:41So, when I say view morning sunlight, a
1:48:42lot of people think they need to see the
1:48:43sunrise across the sunset. I don't mean
1:48:46you need to see the sun as an object.
1:48:48You need to see the light emitting from
1:48:50the sun. And even on overcast days,
1:48:52that's there. Now, on densely overcast
1:48:54day in the thick of winter in the UK or
1:48:57Scandinavia, it can be quite dark, even
1:48:59in the morning and throughout the day.
1:49:01In that case, you'll really want to
1:49:03strive to get some bright artificial
1:49:04light exposure in the morning and
1:49:06throughout the day as well.
1:49:08But this business of getting some light,
1:49:10we can put light in capital letters, not
1:49:12necessarily seeing the sun as an object,
1:49:13but getting sunlight in your eyes early
1:49:15in the day increases that cortisol peak
1:49:17and its duration. This is
1:49:19great for your immune system. It's great
1:49:22for alertness. And when we hear
1:49:24cortisol, normally people think bad. Oh,
1:49:25cortisol is bad. No, cortisol is
1:49:27terrific. You need cortisol. Trust me,
1:49:28people who have deficits in cortisol
1:49:30production
1:49:31or regulation have all sorts of
1:49:32problems. We're talking about getting a
1:49:34healthy big cortisol early in the day
1:49:38that carries your energy until the
1:49:40evening and then the cortisol drops off.
1:49:42What about shift workers?
1:49:44Shift workers,
1:49:46God bless them. They're essential for so
1:49:48much of what we do and consume and need,
1:49:49so we have to be grateful to them.
1:49:52They unfortunately are in a very
1:49:54compromised health state. Often they
1:49:57have digestive issues, mood issues. It's
1:49:59a real problem and it's very dependent
1:50:01on the particular shift. The worst case
1:50:03scenario for them is the swing shift
1:50:05where they're working days, then they're
1:50:06working nights on the order of, you
1:50:08know, 3 days on, 3 days off, etc. It's
1:50:10terrible. We know that health outcomes
1:50:13for shift workers are so much worse. We
1:50:15know that a few things can help. For
1:50:16instance, regular meal and exercise
1:50:19times. Okay. We know that red light, and
1:50:22here I'm not talking about red light
1:50:23therapy, I'm talking about
1:50:25working under lights that are a bit more
1:50:28um red shifted, long wavelength shifted
1:50:30as we say, as opposed to bright
1:50:31fluorescent lights can help reduce some
1:50:34of the cortisol release associated with
1:50:36shift work that occurs at the wrong
1:50:38times. This is a pretty nuanced topic um
1:50:41that again depends on the shift. Um
1:50:43ideally one doesn't work shifts their
1:50:46entire life.
1:50:47If you absolutely have to do shift work,
1:50:50go to your boss, tell them I said this.
1:50:52Try and stay on the same schedule, even
1:50:54if it's a nocturnal schedule, which is
1:50:56the most unhealthy schedule. Try and
1:50:58stay on the same schedule for at least 2
1:50:59weeks before shifting back to another
1:51:01schedule.
1:51:03If you're somebody who's
1:51:05required to stay up until 3:00 in the
1:51:06morning and then sleep until 11:00 a.m.,
1:51:08does that mean that viewing morning
1:51:10sunlight, your morning at 11:30 a.m. is
1:51:12not useful? No, it's still useful. Try
1:51:15and keep things as regular as possible.
1:51:17That's my advice. But for people who are
1:51:19on a typical, what we call diurnal,
1:51:21daytime active, as opposed to nocturnal,
1:51:24nighttime active schedule,
1:51:26this business of hydration, sunlight,
1:51:28movement, even if it's skipping rope for
1:51:315 minutes or jogging in place or just
1:51:32swinging one's arms or getting a little
1:51:34walk in in the morning,
1:51:36immensely beneficial.
1:51:38If you can do a full workout first thing
1:51:40in the morning, great. If you don't have
1:51:41time for that until later in the day,
1:51:42I'll be the first to say exercise
1:51:45when you can do it consistently. So, if
1:51:47it, you know, don't think that if you
1:51:49don't work out in the morning that you
1:51:50shouldn't do it later. We know
1:51:51everybody, for sake of longevity and
1:51:54immediate, I guess what we call health
1:51:55span and lifespan,
1:51:57and well-being for that matter, should
1:51:59be doing at least 2 or 3 days per week
1:52:01of resistance training of some sort.
1:52:04This is true for men and women
1:52:06and cardiovascular training in order to
1:52:08ensure healthy neuromuscular
1:52:10connections, brain health, heart health.
1:52:13This is just very, very clear. If you do
1:52:15that early in the day, fine. If you do
1:52:17that on your lunch hour, fine. If you do
1:52:18that in the evening, fine. Just make
1:52:20sure whatever you do in order to get
1:52:22that workout, whatever caffeine or
1:52:23pre-workout that you're taking
1:52:25doesn't inhibit your ability to get a
1:52:27great night's sleep because sleep is the
1:52:29ultimate restorative. It's what really
1:52:32is the foundation of mental health and
1:52:33physical health. And I can say, if you
1:52:36want to be, because this question
1:52:37started off, what can you do to be, you
1:52:39know, have the best dopamine system, the
1:52:41best energy, the best creativity,
1:52:44as you move through your day, notice
1:52:46your energy levels.
1:52:48E
1:52:49Well, certainly I believe that people
1:52:51should eat
1:52:52mostly non-processed or minimally
1:52:54processed foods. That's very clear,
1:52:55regardless of whether or not you're
1:52:56vegan, vegetarian, omnivore, or
1:52:58carnivore.
1:52:59And eat amounts and foods that allow you
1:53:04to have sufficient mental energy. So,
1:53:05for me, that largely means
1:53:08high-quality protein and fibrous
1:53:10vegetables and fruit throughout the day.
1:53:13What's your vice?
1:53:14Any carbohydrate with melted Parmesan
1:53:18cheese. So, thin-crust pizza, pasta with
1:53:21with uh Parmesan cheese, especially if
1:53:23there's like a diet Coke nearby,
1:53:26or oh goodness, I can just consume,
1:53:28consume, consume. It is very hard for me
1:53:31to hit my threshold with those things.
1:53:32This is a slight tangent, but I will
1:53:33return to this dopamine conversation.
1:53:35It's it's it's related, but when you
1:53:37have that
1:53:38thin-crust pizza or that, whatever food
1:53:40that spikes your dopamine. For me, I've
1:53:42got a bit of a sweet tooth, so that's my
1:53:43advice. Carrot cake or something like
1:53:45that.
1:53:45carrot cake's good. Especially if the
1:53:47ratio of the Yeah, it's ratio.
1:53:49to the cake part is set right. If it's
1:53:51too much frosting or too much cake, it
1:53:54yeah, exactly.
1:53:55Um no go. But if it's just the right
1:53:57ratio, So, if I I had that carrot cake
1:53:59yesterday, which no one knows about, I
1:54:01kept it to myself, but does that mean
1:54:03that I'm more likely, with the
1:54:05understanding of dopamine, to want
1:54:06carrot cake again tomorrow, the day
1:54:08after, because I've got into a bit of a
1:54:10carrot cake cycle? Cuz I think
1:54:11everybody, when they think about their
1:54:12relationship with sugar, understands
1:54:14that if they just laid off sugar for
1:54:16like 3 or 4 weeks, the craving seemed to
1:54:18die down.
1:54:18Yeah.
1:54:19It's an interesting question. I don't
1:54:21think we have the exact answer. Some
1:54:22would argue that we should have more of
1:54:25a kind of balanced relationship with
1:54:27food whereby if we really crave
1:54:29something that we should allow ourselves
1:54:31it, provided it's not some addictive
1:54:32substance or something. You don't You
1:54:34addicts relapse.
1:54:35Um here we're talking about food. We're
1:54:37not talking about drugs of abuse, etc.
1:54:40But is food not addictive in the same
1:54:41way? Well, food can be very compulsive.
1:54:45I think some people are addicted to
1:54:47food.
1:54:48Um I You know, I define addiction as a
1:54:50progressive narrowing of the things that
1:54:52bring you pleasure. We could probably
1:54:54attach to that,
1:54:55you know, the classic
1:54:57definition of addiction is where
1:55:00continued consumption or um engagement
1:55:04in a given activity is actually
1:55:06maladaptive for your life, all right? I
1:55:07mean, if you have four pieces of carrot
1:55:09cake this week, I doubt, given you the
1:55:12shape that you're in, it's going to
1:55:13shorten your life. You might not feel
1:55:14great,
1:55:15but it's not going to shorten your life.
1:55:18You're certainly not going to like lose
1:55:20your income um like somebody who's a
1:55:22gambling addict would. Um this kind of
1:55:25thing. You're not going to throw your
1:55:25life away or go rob somebody in order to
1:55:27get that carrot cake, although But but
1:55:29is it doing that? That And I'm pointing
1:55:30now at the dopamine wave thing. Am Am I
1:55:32having a dopamine crash?
1:55:34You are. And Anna Lembke describes this
1:55:36best. Um and you can do this experiment.
1:55:37It's kind of a fun experiment for you
1:55:39chocolate lovers.
1:55:40Abstain from chocolate for say a week.
1:55:43And then pick your favorite chocolate
1:55:46and take a little piece of that
1:55:47chocolate and put it in your mouth and
1:55:49taste it. And of course it will taste
1:55:51delicious. It'll taste wonderful.
1:55:54But if you notice very quickly,
1:55:56your brain shifts to
1:55:59a sense of wanting more.
1:56:01Not so much savoring the chocolate that
1:56:03you're eating, but wanting more. And
1:56:05you're thinking about, well, how much am
1:56:06I going to take? I'm going to take this
1:56:07square. Oh, that other square next to it
1:56:08broke off a little bit. Guess I got to
1:56:09eat that one, too. So, that's the
1:56:11dopamine system in action.
1:56:13And then what happens is
1:56:15you eat half the chocolate thing and you
1:56:16go, "Oh, I don't feel that good about
1:56:18it, but I kind of want more anyway."
1:56:21Why? Well, you're in that dopamine
1:56:23trough. The same amount of something is
1:56:25giving you diminishing returns. What's
1:56:27the way to make that chocolate take
1:56:29taste absolutely fantastic again?
1:56:31Abstain.
1:56:33Now, there's also an interesting
1:56:34phenomenon, and this is why I said I
1:56:36can't be exactly sure how to answer your
1:56:38question
1:56:39accurately, that is.
1:56:41I have several friends, just by way of
1:56:43example, who
1:56:45reached their 40s quite overweight, 50s
1:56:47quite overweight, 30 to 60 lb
1:56:50overweight. And they'd come to me and
1:56:51they'd say, "I want to lose weight."
1:56:53Every single one of them has been highly
1:56:55successful in rapidly losing that weight
1:56:57and keeping it off the following way,
1:56:59and I'm not a nutritionist. I say, "You
1:57:01can eat meat,
1:57:03fish,
1:57:04eggs,
1:57:05chicken, fruit, and vegetables, and
1:57:07that's it. And drink water and caffeine.
1:57:10And don't consume calories in
1:57:11beverages."
1:57:12And every single one of them lost
1:57:1530, 60 lb and has kept it off. Now,
1:57:17Layne Norton and I, who are friends and
1:57:19colleagues in the health space,
1:57:21he'll say, "Well, they created a caloric
1:57:23deficit, and so they lost weight." I'd
1:57:25say, "Absolutely." I would also say, and
1:57:27I think Layne would probably agree,
1:57:28although there's no randomized control
1:57:30trial to prove this, that in eating that
1:57:32way, mostly whole, unprocessed, or
1:57:34minimally processed foods,
1:57:37they did several things as well. One is
1:57:40you start to learn the relationship
1:57:41between how something tastes, its
1:57:43caloric value, its
1:57:45micronutrient and macronutrient value.
1:57:47What do I mean? When you eat a steak,
1:57:49like let's say a 12-oz ribeye, if that's
1:57:50in your nutrition plan,
1:57:53meaning you allow yourself red meat.
1:57:55Let's say you eat that.
1:57:57You taste it. It's very savory.
1:57:59Hopefully it tastes really good. If it's
1:58:00cooked properly, it's a great cut.
1:58:02And your brain learns the relationship
1:58:05between steak and calories and nutrients
1:58:07and amino acids. There's this whole
1:58:09amino acid foraging hypothesis of
1:58:11nutrition. Then you eat fruit. You taste
1:58:13the fruit. You actually taste it. Now,
1:58:14this is far and away different than if
1:58:15you're consuming hoagie sandwiches and
1:58:17hamburgers and cheeseburgers. There's
1:58:19something about removing the bread.
1:58:21There's something about removing the
1:58:22pasta. There's something about removing
1:58:24those foods that I believe has nothing
1:58:26to do with those foods being bad. In
1:58:27fact, I love bread and pasta,
1:58:28high-quality bread and pasta, and I do
1:58:30consume those, but I'm not trying to
1:58:31lose weight,
1:58:32nor gain weight.
1:58:34When people eat that way, meat, fish,
1:58:37eggs, chicken, fruits and vegetables,
1:58:38and nothing else for a couple of months,
1:58:41what every single one of them says is,
1:58:43"Well, then we had this party,
1:58:45and, you know, the kids were having
1:58:47birthday cake, so I decided to allow
1:58:48myself a slice of cake." They ate it,
1:58:51and it tasted disgusting to them.
1:58:53Or they in some cases threw up, or they
1:58:56just felt like it was gross.
1:58:58Whatever positive association they had
1:59:00with it before, it no longer exists.
1:59:02And then they get right back on their
1:59:05let's call it diet and they continue
1:59:07along their way. And they're very
1:59:08relieved to learn that they actually
1:59:10enjoy healthy foods. I think that we can
1:59:12rewire, in fact we know that you can
1:59:14rewire your association between
1:59:15nutritive value, taste of food,
1:59:17calories, and micronutrients. And so
1:59:20when I hear about these highly
1:59:21restrictive elimination diets where
1:59:22people do only meat, which frankly does
1:59:24not seem healthy to me. I think some
1:59:26fiber from other sources is good,
1:59:28although I'm sure Paul Saladino will
1:59:29come after me, will probably with a
1:59:31drumstick or something. Jordan Peterson.
1:59:33Or Jordan
1:59:34Whatever Jordan's doing seems to be
1:59:36working for Jordan, so I'm not going to
1:59:37argue. People should do as they will,
1:59:38but you know, um
1:59:40I'm an omnivore and I enjoy that. But
1:59:42I think when people do elimination type
1:59:44diets
1:59:45the more important thing is that they're
1:59:47learning this association between taste
1:59:50and calories that seems to really work
1:59:51for them and the pleasure of eating
1:59:54certain foods and really dropping into
1:59:56the the
1:59:58quality and the taste of that food. When
2:00:00we crave a food and it's kind of an
2:00:02indulgence food, like chocolate or
2:00:04carrot cake or something it's more along
2:00:07this dopamine uh transition from peak to
2:00:10trough.
2:00:12Now, when I I love steak. My dad's
2:00:13Argentine, I'm half Argentine, so I love
2:00:15a great beef tenderloin or like a you
2:00:18know like I love red meat, but I don't
2:00:20eat two ribeyes. I eat one and I'm good.
2:00:23And so I think that there's something
2:00:24very satiating about high nutritive
2:00:26quality food that includes fruits and
2:00:27vegetables and the vegans have their
2:00:29choices and the vegetarians have their
2:00:31choices. And so so much of what we think
2:00:33about when we think about dopamine and
2:00:34food is yes, highly processed foods,
2:00:37candy, packaged goods, cookies, chips
2:00:40they drive this craving for more but
2:00:44people don't actually enjoy them that
2:00:45much. They just require them. Or at
2:00:48least they think they require them. So I
2:00:50encourage anyone who feels addicted to
2:00:52those foods to take a, you know, healthy
2:00:56approach when you consume enough
2:00:57calories, don't go on a crash diet, but
2:00:59try eating really high quality
2:01:01unprocessed or minimally processed foods
2:01:03for just a couple of weeks. At first
2:01:05it's murder. They just can't do it and
2:01:07then inevitably they call me and they
2:01:09say
2:01:10I feel so much better and I don't even
2:01:12want that stuff anymore. It's
2:01:13interesting how that then correlates
2:01:14with your own motivation. And I it's we
2:01:18fly out here to do this podcast and we
2:01:19come out sometimes for two weeks, three
2:01:21weeks, sometimes even four weeks and we
2:01:22all eat the same thing pretty much
2:01:25throughout the day for those four weeks.
2:01:27So it's almost a dietary intervention
2:01:29for me because when we finish recording,
2:01:31my food is going to be there and I know
2:01:32what it's going to be. It's going to be
2:01:33basically a salad with meat in it. So
2:01:36vegetables, etc. And so it becomes this
2:01:38like intervention. Going to LA is this
2:01:39dietary intervention. What happens is
2:01:42when I come here and have that salad
2:01:44every day with various different meats
2:01:46and various different vegetables every
2:01:47day is my motivation to go to the gym
2:01:49for some reason improves. Mhm. My sleep
2:01:51ends up improving and it's like my that
2:01:53one sort of dietary intervention has
2:01:55this really downstream impact on
2:01:56everything else. I get in the I get in
2:01:58the best shape of my life. I'm
2:01:59motivated. I feel good. I drive around
2:02:01It might also be the sunshine out here,
2:02:02but Mhm. And I just I I think people
2:02:04don't realize that even as you say a
2:02:06week or two having that dietary
2:02:08intervention, well intervention, cutting
2:02:10out the crap can have such a big
2:02:13reframing on your perception of food,
2:02:15how you experience it. And now I'm
2:02:17excited about the bloody salad. Yeah,
2:02:18it's wild how healthy foods become more
2:02:21attractive to us the more we consume
2:02:23them and the more we avoid unhealthy
2:02:25foods. I think also a lot of people
2:02:27don't know how great you can feel
2:02:28getting some morning sunlight, great
2:02:30sleep, eating nutritious food
2:02:33and once they do, once they experience
2:02:35that lift in energy and mood, it's
2:02:38kind of addictive in its own right. Mhm.
2:02:40Now, I also think it's important to not
2:02:41be too restrictive, right? You know,
2:02:43around the holidays or something I I
2:02:44mean I love a great slice of pie, like I
2:02:46do these things. I think if one gets
2:02:48enough movement then
2:02:50you're fine. Um you know
2:02:53if nothing else, this whole um kind of
2:02:55trend toward the use of these GLP-1
2:02:58glucagon-like peptide agonists like
2:03:00Ozempic and Mounjaro, if it's taught us
2:03:01anything, it's that people are obese
2:03:04because they
2:03:05consume too many calories. They just
2:03:07ingest too much relative to their
2:03:08activity levels. And here, in particular
2:03:10in the United States, people are walking
2:03:12and moving far less. Most people get no
2:03:14regular exercise and they consume about
2:03:163,500 calories per day on average, so
2:03:18they're just on a steady weight increase
2:03:20for most of their life.
2:03:22More activity, less food intake is
2:03:24fairly easy to accomplish if you do just
2:03:27a few subtle things. So there are these
2:03:29levers, these major levers like eating
2:03:30better. As you said, meat and salads. I
2:03:32mean it's one of the most satiating
2:03:34meals you can have. I also find that if
2:03:37I consume fewer carbohydrates during the
2:03:38day, this is just me, it runs
2:03:40countercurrent to most everything you'll
2:03:41read out there, but I like to fast
2:03:44essentially until about 11:00 or noon
2:03:45just cuz I'm not hungry. I like to
2:03:47exercise in the morning. But then I'll
2:03:49have a lunch that is some meat, some
2:03:50salad, maybe some starch like a bowl of
2:03:52oatmeal or rice, but not a whole lot.
2:03:54And then toward evening, my final meal
2:03:57you know, dinner, which is around 7:00
2:03:58or 8:00 p.m.
2:03:59generally includes a few more starches
2:04:01and a little less protein and I sleep
2:04:04best that way. Some people it's the
2:04:05opposite. They like a big bowl of
2:04:07oatmeal and just a couple of eggs in the
2:04:08morning and you know, and some nuts in
2:04:10the afternoon and then they'll they like
2:04:11a big steak for dinner. You know, I
2:04:13think everybody's slightly different.
2:04:15Some people are just naturally have more
2:04:17energy. I think about Jocko Willink. I
2:04:18mean the guy has so much energy.
2:04:22And I think it's not a coincidence that
2:04:25he works out at 4:30 in the morning. I
2:04:27think that if you work out early in the
2:04:29day, you often have more energy
2:04:31throughout the day. I find if I get my
2:04:33workout done before 9:00 a.m., I have
2:04:34more energy all day long. However, if I
2:04:37work out mid-morning, late morning
2:04:39pretty sleepy in the afternoon.
2:04:41Everybody's different. Is there like a
2:04:43physiological rationale for that?
2:04:45There probably is. You know, as our body
2:04:47temperature rises in the morning, we are
2:04:49waking up. So when we exercise, we
2:04:51accelerate that transition toward being
2:04:54more alert. Now in the afternoon when
2:04:56our body temperature typically peaks
2:04:58after that is usually when we get a bit
2:04:59sleepy. Typically after lunch, people
2:05:01get sleepy sometimes because of the
2:05:02volume of food they've they've eaten.
2:05:04Most often it's because they've hit that
2:05:06temperature peak in the early afternoon.
2:05:08And we know that as body temperature
2:05:11drops 1 to 3° in the evening and night
2:05:14time, that's when we fall asleep. In
2:05:16fact, in order to fall asleep, your body
2:05:18temperature actually has to drop by
2:05:19about 1 to 3°. This is why, you know,
2:05:22sticking a foot out of the, you know,
2:05:24the comforter or if you have a cooling
2:05:26mattress, which some people require
2:05:27because they run hot, or keeping the
2:05:29room cool facilitates falling asleep.
2:05:32Although it's not completely the case,
2:05:34so I should mention the best scenario
2:05:36would be cool room with warm blankets to
2:05:39fall asleep and then toward morning sort
2:05:41of a warmer environment. We actually get
2:05:43a little bit more rapid eye movement
2:05:44sleep, dream sleep
2:05:46elaborate dream sleep toward morning. So
2:05:49you can get really nuanced in this
2:05:50stuff. All the biohackers know this, but
2:05:52you know, basically if you work out
2:05:54early in the day, you know, before 8:00
2:05:57or 9:00 a.m., it's going to accelerate
2:05:59that increase in body temperature and
2:06:00you'll feel more alert. this beautiful
2:06:02phenomenon in circadian biology called
2:06:04entrainment whereby, let's say you're
2:06:06not a morning person, you hate mornings.
2:06:08If you force yourself to get up and
2:06:10exercise at say 6:00 a.m. for 3 days in
2:06:12a row by the fourth day, you'll
2:06:14naturally start waking up around that
2:06:16time. Because the circadian clock of the
2:06:18brain, we call the suprachiasmatic
2:06:20nucleus the main inputs that drive when
2:06:23you're alert and when you want to be
2:06:24asleep are sunlight exposure to the
2:06:26eyes. This is the whole basis for that
2:06:28morning sunlight exposure.
2:06:30Physical activity
2:06:31when you eat and social engagement. And
2:06:34there could be a whole discussion about
2:06:36this, but suffice to say that if you
2:06:37start getting some morning light, some
2:06:39exercise, maybe even before the sun
2:06:40comes out, some caffeine, hydration, and
2:06:43then a meal in the early part of the
2:06:44day, your body will start to anticipate
2:06:47all of those activities and even if
2:06:49you're a so-called night owl, you'll
2:06:51start to shift your clock toward being a
2:06:53early riser and lo and behold, around
2:06:5510:00 or 11:00 p.m., you'll start to
2:06:57notice you're getting sleepy. Then you
2:06:58just have to have the discipline to turn
2:06:59off the phone put it in the other room
2:07:01and go to sleep. I wonder that. I do
2:07:03wonder if I'm a night owl because of bad
2:07:05habits or because of some kind of
2:07:06biology.
2:07:08Typically people fall into one of three
2:07:10categories and it is genetically
2:07:12determined. Uh you can be a morning
2:07:14person. A more typical I would be
2:07:17somebody who goes to sleep somewhere
2:07:18between 10:30 and midnight wakes up
2:07:21between 6:00 and 8:00 a.m. and then the
2:07:23night owls who like to stay up till 1:00
2:07:24or 2:00 in the morning, wake up around
2:07:26you know, 10:00 or 11:00 a.m. It changes
2:07:28with age.
2:07:30I'm a bit of a weirdo in the sense that
2:07:31I like to do most of my mental and
2:07:34physical work between 6:00 a.m. and
2:07:36noon. Then I'm not super effective in
2:07:38the afternoon. My brain doesn't work so
2:07:40well. I can take care of some little
2:07:42things unless I offset that. And then
2:07:44between 6:00 p.m. and midnight, I'm
2:07:46alert again.
2:07:48Yeah, I don't know. Maybe it's my
2:07:49Argentine roots, who knows. So given
2:07:52it's the afternoon now and I knew that
2:07:53we were going to be podcasting, what I
2:07:55did is I did indeed get up at 6:45 a.m.
2:07:58I did a bunch of work this morning
2:08:00for the podcast, some other things. And
2:08:02then on the way here
2:08:03I did a non-sleep deep rest. I listened
2:08:06to that for about 10 minutes. I'm I kind
2:08:08of sensed I was somewhere in sleep. I
2:08:10don't quite recall. And then when we
2:08:12arrived, I'm a little bit groggy, a
2:08:14little bit of hydration, a little bit of
2:08:15caffeine and I feel completely alert. So
2:08:18you can learn to offset these troughs in
2:08:19energy. I think that at every stage of
2:08:21life meaning for every 5-year block of
2:08:24life, you can kind of predict what the
2:08:26best schedule for you would be. So when
2:08:28you're a baby, you slept all the time,
2:08:29that's your best schedule. When you were
2:08:30an adolescent, it was different. I have
2:08:32a niece, she's 17 and I went and stayed
2:08:34with my sister recently and it was
2:08:35unbelievable. She went to bed
2:08:37at 10:30 at night. Probably fell asleep
2:08:40at midnight cuz she was on her iPad with
2:08:42her friends.
2:08:43She would wake up the next day at noon.
2:08:46It's summertime.
2:08:48Get up, say hello, get a glass of water,
2:08:50go back to sleep and sleep for another
2:08:51hour and that's exactly what she should
2:08:53be doing. Why? Because she's growing,
2:08:55right? She's a she's youth in youth. In
2:08:57your 30s, it might be a different
2:08:58schedule, in your 40s, a different
2:08:59schedule. And then, of course, kids come
2:09:00along and they force the schedule. So, I
2:09:04would say whatever stage of life you're
2:09:06in, you probably know what the best
2:09:07schedule is for you, and you just have
2:09:10to work with the realities of life. But,
2:09:11if you can adhere to that, knowing,
2:09:13okay, you have a peak in energy and
2:09:15focus at this hour, a peak in energy and
2:09:17focus at that hour,
2:09:18by all means, do it. I mean, Rick Rubin
2:09:20shared, um, when he came on my podcast
2:09:22that his best day is to transition
2:09:24slowly into the day. Take a walk outside
2:09:27in the sun in the morning. Slowly into
2:09:29the day. And then, he does his work,
2:09:30really his main focus work in the
2:09:32afternoon and in the evening. Some
2:09:34people are more night shifted, some
2:09:36people are more morning shifted. I tend
2:09:38to get my best ideas, I think, right
2:09:40before I go to sleep, which is annoying,
2:09:42because there's this temptation to go to
2:09:44my laptop and begin writing and begin
2:09:46working.
2:09:46Do you write them down?
2:09:48Yes.
2:09:49Yeah. I write down little cues, and then
2:09:51my team will know because it's useful
2:09:53when I'm on this timeframe because my
2:09:54team in the UK are getting my my memos
2:09:57at 7:00 a.m. there. All right.
2:09:59don't know that I'm it's like midnight
2:10:01or 1:00 a.m. here. I'm so glad you
2:10:02mentioned this. I think for people who
2:10:04are interested in having a great life, a
2:10:05great career, it's very important to
2:10:07have a mode of capture.
2:10:09So, for me, um, it's this notebook, and
2:10:12it's not just blank pages in front of
2:10:13me, I promise. These are just like
2:10:14little little things that come to mind.
2:10:16Um, it doesn't matter what's here. Um,
2:10:20and I place them into the notebook, and
2:10:23then at the end of each week or so, or
2:10:24if I'm on a plane, I'll start to look
2:10:26back and see, you know, what are the
2:10:27ideas that feel sticky? Like, oh,
2:10:29there's something there. There's like a
2:10:30concept there. I'm actually thinking
2:10:31about doing a uh
2:10:32a
2:10:33drawing book to teach neuroscience at
2:10:36some point. I'm also very interested in
2:10:38animals, so I was listing out, this is
2:10:39very, um, embarrassing, but the
2:10:42different animals
2:10:43that I feel I embodied at different
2:10:46stages of my life and where I'm at now
2:10:48because of the different energies. And I
2:10:50know this is very personal, right? Like,
2:10:51in the sense that it's not going to mean
2:10:52much in the kind of classic neuroscience
2:10:54sense, but I think having a mode of
2:10:56capture for these thoughts that
2:10:59spontaneously arise out of our
2:11:01unconscious mind. I mean, that's what's
2:11:02happening when you're falling asleep.
2:11:04Your conscious mind, which is involved
2:11:06in thinking and planning and organizing
2:11:08knowledge, is starting to tire. Those
2:11:10prefrontal cortex circuits are starting
2:11:11to tire, and your unconscious mind,
2:11:13which is the main driver of all your
2:11:14ideas and so much of what you you are
2:11:17about as an individual, are starting to
2:11:19geyser to the surface. This is why in
2:11:21dreams,
2:11:22even though it occurs in symbols,
2:11:24we are playing with different ideas and
2:11:27ordering of different ideas. This is not
2:11:28Freudian, okay? This is not just Jungian
2:11:31psychology. We had an expert in this,
2:11:33you know, Dr. Paul Conti did a mental
2:11:34health series on our podcast, and he
2:11:36said, you know, the bulk of your brain
2:11:38activity, besides the stuff that's just
2:11:40regulating breathing and heart rate and
2:11:41digestion, et cetera,
2:11:43is really devoted to this unconscious
2:11:45processing. It's taking events from your
2:11:48childhood, plans that you have that you
2:11:50don't even
2:11:51know yet, that aren't aware of yet.
2:11:54Experiences that are happening today and
2:11:56and looking at those from different
2:11:58perspectives and offering those to you
2:11:59in in what? In dreams. What are dreams?
2:12:02In stories, in narratives that are
2:12:04really disrupted in space and time. A
2:12:05lot can happen in a short period of
2:12:07time, then you're in a different room.
2:12:08Dreams are very distorted in terms of
2:12:10their representation. But, when you're
2:12:12falling asleep, you're in that pseudo
2:12:15awake state, obviously, where your
2:12:19thinking, planning, and action parts of
2:12:21your brain, your logical mind is turned
2:12:23off, and these ideas are geysering to
2:12:25the surface. Mhm. And this is why
2:12:27sometimes people have their best ideas
2:12:29in the shower, while walking,
2:12:31when they're not trying to have ideas.
2:12:33And you can see this by writing down a
2:12:36few things before you go to sleep. You
2:12:38can think, you know, like, wondering
2:12:39what to do next year.
2:12:42Don't know. Okay, maybe it's that vague.
2:12:44Does that mean you'll have a dream that
2:12:45solves it that night? Maybe, probably
2:12:47not. But, chances are if you pay
2:12:49attention to, you know, during the day,
2:12:51you'll be walking along, or for some
2:12:52reason this always happens to me when
2:12:54I'm I'm
2:12:55uh
2:12:56urinating? I don't know why. I don't
2:12:58know why. Like, I go like, I don't know,
2:12:59maybe it's cuz I'm relaxed. Like, I go,
2:13:01especially if I'm in nature and I'm
2:13:02hiking, I'll go like, take a take a pee
2:13:04behind a tree, and I I'll be like, oh,
2:13:07I have an idea. It's I don't know why it
2:13:08is. I think it's because I'm not
2:13:10thinking about doing anything except,
2:13:12you know, I'm taking a leak behind a
2:13:13tree. I guess this is very forthcoming
2:13:15for me to admit this, but, you know,
2:13:16some people say in the shower, other
2:13:18people while they're running.
2:13:19One thing that I think is really useful
2:13:21for coming up with ideas,
2:13:23I seem to be mentioning Rick a lot
2:13:25today, but, um, one thing I observed
2:13:28when I spent time with Rick is he has a
2:13:31kind of a practice, although he's never
2:13:32said this formally, where he'll be very
2:13:34still with his eyes closed, and I
2:13:36thought, maybe he's meditating, maybe
2:13:38he's, um, sleeping. And it turns out he
2:13:42told me that his mind is very active in
2:13:44that time,
2:13:45even though his body is very still. Now,
2:13:48that sparked something in me because I
2:13:50have a guest, or had a guest on my
2:13:52podcast by the name of Karl Deisseroth.
2:13:53He's one of the luminaries in the field
2:13:55of neuroscience and one of the best
2:13:57bioengineers in the world. He's also a
2:13:58psychiatrist. A brilliant guy. And when
2:14:01he came on my podcast, he said that he
2:14:03has a practice every night after he puts
2:14:05his five kids to sleep. He's one of
2:14:07these hyper-productive people, where he
2:14:09sits down
2:14:10and he makes himself stay as completely
2:14:13still as possible
2:14:15and forces himself to think in complete
2:14:17sentences. And I thought, this is
2:14:19interesting because it was also reported
2:14:22or purported that Einstein would take
2:14:24walks and then occasionally just stop
2:14:28and let his mind continue in thinking
2:14:30while he stopped his body. And when you
2:14:32start looking back through history of
2:14:34science, history of music, et cetera,
2:14:36you'll find that there are these
2:14:37hyper-creative, hyper-productive people
2:14:39that have a practice of making their
2:14:40body completely still and their mind
2:14:42very active. Not meditation, where
2:14:45you're trying to just focus on your
2:14:46breathing, but they're actually actively
2:14:48thinking while keeping their body very
2:14:50still. Now, I find that fascinating. I
2:14:53also find it fascinating that some
2:14:54people,
2:14:55for instance, myself, if I take a long
2:14:58run, which I do every Sunday, I make it
2:14:59a point to run for 60 to 90 minutes
2:15:01every Sunday. Not fast, but I just go go
2:15:04go go go. Inevitably, during those runs,
2:15:07I come up with some of my best ideas.
2:15:09It's a It puts my brain into a state
2:15:11where I can things geyser up from my
2:15:13unconscious mind. And so, that state of
2:15:16mind is one in which the body is very
2:15:18active, and I'm not trying to think
2:15:20about anything. So, you have these two
2:15:21inverse states. One is body still, mind
2:15:24active. The other is body active, mind
2:15:27kind of free running, kind of just like
2:15:29spooling out. When I'm running, I'm not
2:15:31thinking about anything, and then ideas
2:15:33spring to the surface. In the
2:15:35neuroscience of creativity, we know that
2:15:37there's a meditation practice that's
2:15:38been studied called open monitoring
2:15:41meditation. Most typical meditation is
2:15:44you sit or lie down, close your eyes,
2:15:45maybe lotus position, maybe not, and you
2:15:47concentrate on your breathing. You bring
2:15:49your attention constantly back to your
2:15:51third eye center.
2:15:52Work from Wendy Suzuki's laboratory at
2:15:54NYU has shown just 10 to 13 minutes of
2:15:57that practice every day can improve
2:15:59memory, in particular, working memory,
2:16:01which is your ability to keep thoughts
2:16:03online,
2:16:04lower stress, and other benefits.
2:16:06There's a different form of meditation,
2:16:08which is open monitoring meditation,
2:16:10where you sit or lie down, close your
2:16:12eyes,
2:16:13and you actually are paying attention to
2:16:15everything around you. You focus your
2:16:17attention there in the room, there in
2:16:18the room, there in the room. Or, you
2:16:20just let it all just kind of sift over
2:16:22you. You're not actually focusing on
2:16:23your breathing. And that practice of
2:16:25open monitoring meditation
2:16:28is associated with improved creative
2:16:30capacity. Now, improved creative
2:16:32capacity, in air quotes, is something
2:16:34that's measured in a laboratory. So,
2:16:36synthesis of new ideas, creative
2:16:38solutions to a puzzle, et cetera.
2:16:40We're not talking about writing great
2:16:41works of music, but in a laboratory, you
2:16:44only have so many things that you can
2:16:46sample or measure, typically in
2:16:47undergraduate students. So, I'm kind of
2:16:50just, you know, tossing all of this out
2:16:51there as a means for people who are
2:16:54interested in improving their creativity
2:16:56or exploring creativity, to not just
2:16:58wait, not just wait. Have a mode of
2:17:01capture.
2:17:02Write things down, or maybe jot them
2:17:03into your phone or voice memos. Maybe do
2:17:05open monitoring meditation. Maybe sit
2:17:07and force yourself to think in complete
2:17:09sentences with your body still. Maybe go
2:17:11for a long run or walk where you're
2:17:13bored, you're not listening to anything,
2:17:15and see what comes up. I think everyone
2:17:16does this differently, but if you're
2:17:18able to access this state of mind, it
2:17:20can be immensely powerful because great
2:17:22ideas come to you.
2:17:24So, movement was the last one in the
2:17:26dopamine. We're doing this nice
2:17:27dopamine, like, tree of things. Sleep,
2:17:30we did the NSDR, non-sleep deep rest. We
2:17:33did the hydration, exercise, sunlight.
2:17:36If I'm trying to
2:17:38use what I understand now about dopamine
2:17:40to be productive in my relationships,
2:17:44but also in my professional life, is
2:17:45there anything else I need to be We also
2:17:47did food. And you can spike your
2:17:48dopamine and epinephrine and
2:17:50norepinephrine, the so-called
2:17:51catecholamines, with a cold shower or a
2:17:53cold plunge. It is a state-shifting
2:17:56tool. That's really what it is. I like
2:17:58to do sauna and cold at least once a
2:18:01week. Most people don't have access to a
2:18:03sauna. If you don't have access to a
2:18:05sauna, no big deal, you can take a hot
2:18:06bath, just don't scald yourself. And if
2:18:08you're a male,
2:18:08now because of the Someone told me that
2:18:10it might fry my sperm.
2:18:13Oh, yeah, let's have a very frank
2:18:14discussion about that. It It won't fry
2:18:16them, but it will definitely, um,
2:18:17deplete the number of viable sperm. So,
2:18:19if you are interested in conceiving,
2:18:22just understand that the cycle for
2:18:24genesis of sperm, spermatogenesis, takes
2:18:27place over the course of somewhere
2:18:29between 60 and 90 days, depending on
2:18:31exactly what part of the cycle you're
2:18:32referring to.
2:18:33Heat is not good for sperm. This is why
2:18:37testicles exist outside the body, why
2:18:39the scrotum can both contract and and
2:18:41sort of relax.
2:18:43And if you go into a sauna or a hot tub
2:18:47or a hot bath, you will lower the number
2:18:50of viable sperm that you produce in over
2:18:53the course of the next 60 to 90 days.
2:18:55So, if you're trying to conceive,
2:18:57you probably want to avoid those
2:18:58circumstances unless, of course, you go
2:19:01into a sauna and you take a cold pack
2:19:03with some insulation, please, and you
2:19:04put it in your groin. Um that's a
2:19:07straightforward way to maintain coolness
2:19:09of the testicles and maintain sperm
2:19:12while in the sauna. It's not going to
2:19:13permanently deplete your sperm, but it
2:19:15will dramatically lower sperm viable
2:19:18sperm count forward motile sperm.
2:19:20We know this also from people that sit
2:19:22too much or people that have larger
2:19:24legs. I mean, these studies have
2:19:25actually been done. If you look at the
2:19:26correlation between amount of time
2:19:28seated, especially driving or on a hot
2:19:30car seat,
2:19:32and sperm count and viability, there's
2:19:35kind of an inverse relationship there.
2:19:37Does that mean that you should actively
2:19:38cool your testicles? Well, there's a
2:19:40whole culture of this on the internet.
2:19:42There are products that people can buy.
2:19:43I think they're What are they called?
2:19:44Snowballs? It's like a um I think
2:19:47they're called um you know, which is
2:19:48like uh cold uh underwear or something.
2:19:50I think that's getting a little bit um
2:19:53excessive.
2:19:54Um
2:19:55however, there's a kind of
2:19:58basic understanding that heat isn't good
2:20:00excessive heat isn't good for sperm. And
2:20:02the whole rationale behind cold plunges
2:20:05for sake of testosterone and sperm
2:20:07probably can only be substantiated by
2:20:10the fact that if you get into a cold
2:20:12bath or cold shower
2:20:15and then you warm up, you vasoconstrict,
2:20:18so you reduce the blood flow to the
2:20:19area, and then you're going to allow
2:20:21much more blood flow into that area
2:20:23after they warm up again. But again,
2:20:24heat is bad for the testicles. So,
2:20:27if you're not trying to conceive, no big
2:20:29deal, or you could bring an ice pack in
2:20:30there. I will also say, and this is a
2:20:32very important public service
2:20:33announcement, don't think that you can
2:20:35use hot tub or hot bath or sauna as
2:20:39contraception.
2:20:40I don't know that it's that effective.
2:20:42And um I can assure you, without having
2:20:45looked at the data, that uh many uh
2:20:48child has been conceived despite the
2:20:50fact that people were in a hot tub or
2:20:52bath or sauna. Whether or not they were
2:20:54actually conceived in the bathtub, hot
2:20:56tub, or sauna is obviously none of my
2:20:58business.
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2:21:58The other thing that I I'm curious about
2:22:00as it relates to dopamine is
2:22:02pornography.
2:22:04I think pornography has become more
2:22:06readily available now than ever before.
2:22:07Certainly. I can go on any social media
2:22:09platform, especially X, and I scroll
2:22:11down for long enough, I will be exposed
2:22:13to pornography whether I chose to go and
2:22:15seek it out or not.
2:22:16Yeah, it'll find you. It'll find you. On
2:22:18pretty much every application. Um so, I
2:22:20especially concerning for young people
2:22:21who are in that those formative years.
2:22:23But what is your view on the on
2:22:25pornography, dopamine, and the overall
2:22:27social harm of pornography?
2:22:29Yeah, so this is a controversial topic
2:22:31because
2:22:32obviously people
2:22:35have different opinions on limiting
2:22:37personal freedom, right? Um both
2:22:39expression and consumption of of uh
2:22:42pornography, right? Um but moving that
2:22:44aside and just focusing on things
2:22:46through the lens of biology and the
2:22:48dopamine system,
2:22:49we know that
2:22:51the more stimulating, the more intense
2:22:54an experience, the greater the increase
2:22:56in dopamine. I mean, it's very clear
2:22:58based on neuroimaging studies that
2:23:01you know,
2:23:02more amphetamine causes bigger increases
2:23:04in dopamine than less amphetamine.
2:23:07More cocaine causes bigger increases in
2:23:09dopamine than less cocaine. Caffeine can
2:23:12cause an increase in dopamine, but it's
2:23:14not nearly the kind of increase, the
2:23:16peak that is, that you observe with
2:23:18amphetamine or cocaine, all right? So,
2:23:20we can't just say stimulants, and we
2:23:21can't just say sex. We can't just say
2:23:23pornography. We have to ask within the
2:23:25domain of pornography, because we know
2:23:27that sexual activity, and in particular
2:23:30anticipation of sexual activity, okay,
2:23:32this is important, anticipation of
2:23:34sexual activity raises dopamine levels,
2:23:37then the question is
2:23:38what is the range of things and the
2:23:41range of dopamine increase? Now, while
2:23:43there hasn't been
2:23:44a very systematic exploration of this,
2:23:46we know that
2:23:48you know, a lot of pornography
2:23:50is extreme, right? It involves more than
2:23:54two people. It can involve all sorts of
2:23:56dynamics that for some people are going
2:23:59to be hyperstimulatory, okay?
2:24:01So, this is very different than, I
2:24:03guess, what people would call soft
2:24:05pornography, quote unquote, right? And
2:24:07here these are subjective labels. So,
2:24:10let's just pick a hypothetical scenario.
2:24:12A person is
2:24:14viewing a lot of, let's say, high
2:24:17intensity, high dopamine for them
2:24:20releasing pornography. Okay? For some
2:24:23people, that might be pornography of
2:24:24genre A. For other people, it might be
2:24:26pornography of genre B. For somebody who
2:24:28never looks at pornography, maybe it's
2:24:30quite mild,
2:24:33but for them, it's actually quite
2:24:35intense in terms of the amount of
2:24:36dopamine it releases. Now, what do we
2:24:38know based on dopamine dynamics?
2:24:39Remember, dopamine is the universal
2:24:41currency of motivation-seeking and
2:24:43reward. It's not like there's dopamine
2:24:45unique to pornography versus dopamine
2:24:47unique to food. It's just a matter of
2:24:49levels and duration.
2:24:52If somebody is consuming, let's call it,
2:24:54very intense, aka high dopamine
2:24:57releasing pornography on a regular
2:25:00basis, what do we know? That peak in
2:25:02dopamine will start to lessen. It'll be
2:25:05lower and lower, and the trough
2:25:07in dopamine after they view that
2:25:09pornography will be
2:25:11deeper trough and longer trough, meaning
2:25:14they are very likely, we don't know for
2:25:15sure, but very likely to seek out more
2:25:17and more intense experiences to try and
2:25:19just get them back to baseline. Pretty
2:25:21soon, the pornography that at one time
2:25:24was very stimulating for them is no
2:25:26longer stimulating. Now, the concern
2:25:28here is that and let's just be frank,
2:25:30we're not just talking about viewing
2:25:32pornography. We also have to ask
2:25:33ourselves, what are people doing as they
2:25:35view this pornography?
2:25:36This is
2:25:37a conversation that should be had, but I
2:25:40have to do it in a way where I'm not
2:25:42imparting moral judgment on any of it.
2:25:44I'm not saying people should masturbate
2:25:45or not masturbate. That's none of my
2:25:46business, frankly. This is highly
2:25:48individual. It relates to all sorts of
2:25:49things in terms of values, et cetera.
2:25:53The point is, however, that we know that
2:25:58orgasm is a dopamine-related event, and
2:26:01post-orgasm, there's a
2:26:04increase in a molecule called prolactin
2:26:07in the brain. Prolactin actually in part
2:26:11sets the refractory period in which
2:26:14there can't be further erection in males
2:26:16and orgasm in males. Okay? And in
2:26:18females,
2:26:19it really depends. I mean, there's this
2:26:21whole world I mean, Dr. Rena Malik is um
2:26:24far more skilled to discuss this than I
2:26:25am about, you know, different types of
2:26:28orgasms in women, et cetera. The extent
2:26:30to which multiple orgasms can occur in
2:26:32some individuals, not others. I think
2:26:33the general belief is that it's possible
2:26:36in most anybody, um including males and
2:26:38females, right? But that it's more
2:26:40typical in females than in males, this
2:26:42sort of thing. Here's the point.
2:26:44Dopamine and prolactin generally are in
2:26:46a kind of a push-pull or seesaw
2:26:49relationship, whereby
2:26:51very stimulatory, high dopamine
2:26:53releasing activities and pornography and
2:26:55things like that increase dopamine, but
2:26:57repeated exposure to that, regardless of
2:26:59the activities occurring during that
2:27:01time, lead to big long troughs in
2:27:04dopamine, such that more stimulation is
2:27:06required just to get any sense of
2:27:08arousal.
2:27:09We also know that prolactin, when that
2:27:12is increased, tends to create a kind of
2:27:15um subdued lack of
2:27:17dopamine, I'm using these terms broadly,
2:27:20um
2:27:21kind of amotivated, non-motivated state.
2:27:24There are reasons for this biologically,
2:27:26right? After ejaculation, the idea is
2:27:28that animals won't then or humans won't
2:27:31then copulate again and again and again,
2:27:33at least not for some period of time.
2:27:34The duration of the refractory period is
2:27:36highly individual. It's determined by
2:27:38age, by species. There's the so-called
2:27:40Coolidge effect. Are you familiar with
2:27:41the Coolidge effect? I'm familiar with
2:27:43post-nut clarity. Okay. Um slightly
2:27:46different. There's an anecdote that um
2:27:48at least to my understanding is true, at
2:27:49least the Coolidge effect is a known
2:27:51thing in neuroendocrinology, whereby
2:27:54President Calvin Coolidge
2:27:56reportedly was visiting a chicken farm
2:28:00with his wife.
2:28:02They were touring the farm, and there
2:28:04were a lot of hens, and a lot of
2:28:06chickens generally, and the docent who
2:28:09was showing them around said, you know,
2:28:11this rooster here, pointing to a
2:28:13rooster,
2:28:14copulates more than 300 times per day.
2:28:18It's remarkable. And Mrs. Coolidge turns
2:28:21to President Coolidge and says,
2:28:23"You hear that? 300 times per day."
2:28:26She's obviously quite impressed and
2:28:27letting him know that. And Coolidge,
2:28:30that is, President Coolidge, says, "Ah,
2:28:32but let me ask you a question. Same hen
2:28:34or different hens?" And the docent says,
2:28:36"Different hens." Now, here's the
2:28:38phenomenon, the Coolidge effect. It
2:28:39exists in rodents. It exists in
2:28:41chickens. It exists in dogs.
2:28:45People can speculate whether or not it
2:28:46exists in humans, whereby
2:28:49if an animal copulates, then the male is
2:28:52in a refractory period lasting anywhere
2:28:54from minutes to hours to days, depending
2:28:56on age, species, etc.
2:28:59During that refractory period, they
2:29:00can't
2:29:02achieve erection and or ejaculate again.
2:29:05But if you replace the mate
2:29:07with a novel mate, the refractory period
2:29:10is shortened substantially.
2:29:12Why? The answer is very clear based on
2:29:15actual measurements of brain dopamine.
2:29:18Why? Because dopamine is also associated
2:29:20with novelty. Now, the refractory period
2:29:24probably serves an important
2:29:25evolutionary role, whereby it improves
2:29:28pair bonding so that post post
2:29:30ejaculation post orgasm, okay, here
2:29:32we're interchangeably talking about
2:29:33these for males and females.
2:29:35You know, anytime you hear ejaculation,
2:29:36then people think males, etc. Post
2:29:38orgasm, post coital bliss, pair bonding,
2:29:41the sharing of pheromones, the sharing
2:29:43of stories, you know, the sharing of
2:29:44affection, right? The sharing of a bed
2:29:46to sleep in. These things are intimately
2:29:49involved in pair bonding. So, I'm not
2:29:51saying that the refractory period is a
2:29:53bad thing. What I'm saying is that
2:29:55dopamine can overcome the refractory
2:29:57period, but the refractory period itself
2:29:58is largely due to an increase in
2:30:00prolactin that suppresses dopamine. So,
2:30:03let's go back all the way to this
2:30:05question about pornography.
2:30:06What's the typical scenario? While this
2:30:08is not something I choose to think about
2:30:10a lot, you're talking about some
2:30:12individual in their
2:30:14apartment or home watching intense
2:30:16dopamine stimulating pornography
2:30:19in which they
2:30:21presumably are aroused or not aroused.
2:30:24They do or don't do whatever they choose
2:30:26to do, but that over time has less and
2:30:28less and of an effect in getting them
2:30:30aroused. And keep in mind that none of
2:30:33this necessarily translates to real
2:30:34world human safe interactions between
2:30:39individuals, right? Pornography is very
2:30:42very different than real world sexual
2:30:44interactions. So, there is a phenomenon
2:30:47that is starting to surface on the
2:30:49internet. What do I mean by that? I
2:30:50mean, there are a lot of questions posed
2:30:53in podcast forums in meaning in the
2:30:55comment section on YouTube about is
2:30:58pornography dangerous? Is it bad, etc. I
2:31:00think the thing that we can say for sure
2:31:02is that
2:31:03any behavior, any substance that
2:31:06stimulates a lot of dopamine and that is
2:31:08easily accessed without effort is
2:31:11potentially problematic.
2:31:14Again, big increases in dopamine that
2:31:17are not preceded by effort are
2:31:19potentially problematic. Let's think
2:31:21about methamphetamine. Huge increase in
2:31:23dopamine. Was the brain designed to
2:31:25release dopamine in response to
2:31:27amphetamine? No. The brain was designed
2:31:29to dole out dopamine, give out dopamine
2:31:31at a level and duration that is
2:31:33commensurate with the pursuit of some
2:31:36evolutionarily adaptive goal.
2:31:39Methamphetamine bypasses that, gives you
2:31:41a huge surge in dopamine, which is why
2:31:42people feel miserable afterwards. They
2:31:44crave more just to get back to a lower
2:31:46level of dopamine. Same can be said of
2:31:48gambling in in particular in people that
2:31:50are very prone to gambling addiction.
2:31:53Certainly can be said for food for
2:31:54certain people that are very prone to
2:31:56food addiction. Certainly
2:31:58can be true for anything. But when it
2:32:01comes to pornography, because of the as
2:32:03you pointed out, the ready availability
2:32:05of pornography, in particular
2:32:08let's just call it intense pornography
2:32:11or that includes a lot of different
2:32:13other stimulatory elements, multiple
2:32:15people, high you know, a lot of
2:32:17scenarios that um
2:32:19can be accessed on the internet, right?
2:32:21Certainly not things I'm suggesting
2:32:22people go look at, but that is
2:32:25potentially problematic because it
2:32:27raises the threshold of the person
2:32:29that's viewing this as what is arousing
2:32:31to the point where pretty soon they need
2:32:33those hyper stimulatory environments or
2:32:37stimuli in the form of pornography in
2:32:39order to get aroused. And again, none of
2:32:41that translates into the ability to have
2:32:43conversation with partners or the
2:32:45ability to, you know, have discussion in
2:32:48real world circumstances. And of course,
2:32:50everything we're talking about could
2:32:51also be translated to real world
2:32:53circumstances, but the data really point
2:32:55to the fact that younger people in
2:32:56particular are consuming more
2:32:58pornography. So, we're talking about
2:32:59bigger dopamine increases with less When
2:33:02I say effort, what I mean is kind of the
2:33:04more traditional thing was, at least
2:33:06when I was growing up, was you'd go out
2:33:08on a date or you'd meet somebody and
2:33:10you'd you know, there's a a series of
2:33:11events that would happen prior to uh
2:33:13physical interactions, right? So,
2:33:16this is potentially serious and
2:33:18problematic. There's a lot of judgment
2:33:21and understandably so, because people
2:33:23arrive to this sort of discussion with a
2:33:25lot of different backgrounds in terms of
2:33:27religious backgrounds and what they
2:33:29think is okay or not okay. What I can
2:33:31tell you for sure is that I hear from a
2:33:33lot of young males about their
2:33:35challenges with porn addiction and they
2:33:38want to know how to get over porn
2:33:41addiction. And the answer there is
2:33:42difficult, but very simple, which is
2:33:44abstinence. It's abstinence. It's taking
2:33:47a period of abstinence from pornography.
2:33:49Maybe forever. Maybe reducing the
2:33:52amount. This is where it gets very
2:33:54tricky, very subjective, and it's almost
2:33:55impossible to kind of have the
2:33:57discussion without getting into some
2:33:59murky territory.
2:34:00Yeah. Um but it's a real issue. And I
2:34:03know it's a real issue because I hear
2:34:05from thousands over the last few years
2:34:07of the podcast, I've heard from
2:34:08thousands of males that are like
2:34:11they were addicted to porn. How do they
2:34:13feel?
2:34:14It sounds to me as if they feel very
2:34:17dejected. And some of them actually have
2:34:19said they felt very um kind of misled.
2:34:23Like almost like this thing this natural
2:34:25stimulus for them was
2:34:27dangled in front of them and they
2:34:29just gravitated towards it the same way
2:34:31that any biological organism would
2:34:33gravitate towards something that was
2:34:35triggering its dopamine system. And now
2:34:37they feel depleted and kind of stuck and
2:34:40they don't know what to do. And I don't
2:34:42necessarily think I'm the person to
2:34:44remedy all of this. I certainly am not,
2:34:46but I think there needs to be a
2:34:47conversation, much in the same way that
2:34:49Jonathan Haidt has done an amazing job
2:34:51with anxious generation of talking about
2:34:54some of the severe detriments to overuse
2:34:56of social media and social dynamics on
2:34:58social media, in particular in young
2:35:00girls, and how we're now finally
2:35:02realizing that we're in a mental health
2:35:03crisis, at least in part because of some
2:35:06of that, and we need to pay attention to
2:35:07it. I think there needs to be a
2:35:08discussion around pornography and some
2:35:10of the challenges it can potentially
2:35:13present, in particular for young males,
2:35:15which is not to say that girls and women
2:35:18aren't also looking at pornography,
2:35:20because we know they are. The data tell
2:35:21us that.
2:35:23But
2:35:24it does seem to be more of a problem
2:35:27that's being vocalized by young males.
2:35:29And this of course dovetails with the
2:35:30whole discussion about dating behavior
2:35:32and how that's changed in dating apps,
2:35:34and you know, how the ready availability
2:35:37of kind of the possibility or
2:35:39anticipation of a partner is there, but
2:35:41actual dating behavior and real world
2:35:43sexual behavior is reduced. I mean,
2:35:45there's a lot that needs to be discussed
2:35:47and you know, ideally we would have a
2:35:49psychiatrist, a psychologist, and um a
2:35:52kind of panel of experts to talk about
2:35:54this. And maybe we do this together, you
2:35:56know, as as a service to the world,
2:35:58because I hear about this a lot. Yeah,
2:36:00for instance, just by way of contrast,
2:36:02I'm not getting a ton of YouTube
2:36:03comments and emails from people saying,
2:36:05"Hey, you know, I really struggle with
2:36:07uh
2:36:07you know, with ribeye steak addiction or
2:36:09with coffee addiction or energy drink
2:36:11addiction." Maybe a little bit with
2:36:12energy drinks, but it's not crashing
2:36:14lives. It's not causing people to feel
2:36:16depressed, miserable about themselves.
2:36:18It's not causing people to have sexual
2:36:19dysfunction issues in real world
2:36:21interactions. I mean, this is also the
2:36:23concern, right? That young people are
2:36:25getting so attuned to certain dopamine
2:36:29dynamics related to pornography that
2:36:31they don't either get aroused or know
2:36:34how to handle real world intimate
2:36:36interactions.
2:36:37Erectile dysfunction, all those kinds of
2:36:38things.
2:36:39For instance. I do I have to be honest
2:36:41and I this is I just have to be honest
2:36:43cuz nothing else is useful, but I
2:36:45remember the first time I saw a
2:36:46pornographic image when I was young and
2:36:49it was just a picture of like someone
2:36:51with like a nipple out. And it was the
2:36:53most arousing
2:36:56thing in the world. And obviously as
2:36:58I've aged, I'm now 31, it would arouse I
2:37:01certainly wouldn't get aroused at seeing
2:37:02like the thing that aroused me when I
2:37:04was 16 or whatever that I found. For
2:37:06example, in it and that as you were
2:37:08saying, I was thinking, "Gosh, even my
2:37:09arousal cycle as I've gotten, you know,
2:37:11over the last 10 years has changed
2:37:13because of the availability of
2:37:14pornography, but also just sex as a it
2:37:18in real life is
2:37:20is become more extreme as it tries to
2:37:22keep up with the expectations that
2:37:24pornography sets. And then I thought
2:37:26about a lot what you said about people
2:37:27messaging you, thousands of them, about
2:37:29pornography and
2:37:30the unfortunate thing about the the
2:37:32abstinence advice is it leaves them with
2:37:35many of them with what alternative?
2:37:38I mean, one would hope um depending on,
2:37:41you know, the circumstances, that they
2:37:42would seek out healthy relationships.
2:37:45And then this goes to the social
2:37:46elements you described, which is it's
2:37:48really difficult. And when we I've had
2:37:50multiple people sit here saying to me
2:37:51that really the top 10% of men that are
2:37:53having most of the sex, and this bottom
2:37:55percent 50% of men haven't had sex for a
2:37:57year. I go, "So, you're you're going to
2:37:59we got to tell a 19-year-old horny young
2:38:02man that he's got to abstain from
2:38:05masturbation and pornography, and we
2:38:08might not be able to offer him an
2:38:09alternative for a year." Well, I'm not
2:38:11telling anyone what to
2:38:12know it's not you, but I'm Right. Or
2:38:13maybe um But you got to
2:38:15throttle back throttle back his behavior
2:38:17or think about ways in which things he
2:38:21could do could lead to healthy romantic
2:38:24and sexual interactions, you know,
2:38:26assuming that, you know, he's of an age
2:38:28and you know, the circumstances are are
2:38:31like for that. I think that
2:38:34it's you know, as you can tell, as I'm
2:38:35kind of stumbling here, I'm not trying
2:38:37to be careful. I'm trying to be as
2:38:38accurate as possible while also not
2:38:41stating things that I don't believe are
2:38:42true. Like, you know,
2:38:44can pornography be consumed by certain
2:38:46people in a healthy way? Well, probably
2:38:48yes. Um do a lot of people get carried
2:38:50away with it and it starts to become a
2:38:51detriment in their lives? Maybe even an
2:38:53addiction, maybe even
2:38:55impede other aspects of romantic and
2:38:58workplace behavior.
2:39:00Yes, we hear this all the time. Do you
2:39:02know where I am now? I am at I'm
2:39:03arriving at the position that I think
2:39:05pornography is bad.
2:39:08Because, you know, again, I get lots of
2:39:09DMs and messages and the more I've
2:39:11understood about the brain and the body
2:39:12and the and dopamine etc., I just can't
2:39:16find a
2:39:18net positive of pornography. I can't
2:39:20find one. Especially as it relates to my
2:39:22relationship with my partner. I've been
2:39:23with her for 5 years now. And I do I
2:39:25think that me watching pornography,
2:39:28especially if I'm watching it
2:39:29frequently, is going to help my
2:39:30performance in the bedroom? Absolutely
2:39:33not. Absolutely not. Yeah, it's sort of
2:39:35um
2:39:36what's that old saying? You want to get
2:39:37good at push-ups, do push-ups. You know,
2:39:40probably the best place to get um good
2:39:43at intimate conversation and behavior is
2:39:46in the context of, like you said, like a
2:39:48a great relationship
2:39:49Mhm. um with great communication, that
2:39:51sort of thing. I
2:39:53I do hear about this
2:39:55concern from people a lot. I think that
2:39:58it's hard to imagine more benefits than
2:40:02kind of concerns or risks when it comes
2:40:04to pornography, especially for young
2:40:07males. I too grew up in an era where,
2:40:09you know, someone would have knowledge
2:40:12of like a Playboy magazine or something.
2:40:14Typically, it was stashed someplace in
2:40:16town and then people would go visit it,
2:40:18you know? Um
2:40:19it was like a library or something. It
2:40:21was it was sort of a like an urban
2:40:22library type environment where, you
2:40:24know, people would know, oh yeah, behind
2:40:26the
2:40:26it was always like a
2:40:28dumpster or something terrible. It would
2:40:29be like behind the dumpster or behind
2:40:30this building, like there's a there's a
2:40:31stack of Playboys and like then people
2:40:33would go there, right? Um
2:40:35but it wasn't a big part of my
2:40:38childhood. It wasn't a big part of my
2:40:40life, you know? I never found any
2:40:43pornography in my home. Like, you know,
2:40:44some kids will stumble across their
2:40:45dad's magazines. I never had that
2:40:47experience. Um I think that
2:40:51a lot can be said about the requirements
2:40:53and importance of
2:40:55creating healthy dating behavior and
2:40:58that's a real-world experience kind of
2:41:00thing. And, you know, this is a bigger
2:41:02discussion that deserves a lot of time.
2:41:04Um I'm not sure we have time for it now,
2:41:06but you know, we're growing up in a
2:41:09world where
2:41:10so much of the input arrives through the
2:41:13internet. Again, a low-effort threshold,
2:41:16high-dopamine scenario, right? Somebody
2:41:19wants to find something on the internet,
2:41:21they just Google for it and they can
2:41:23find it.
2:41:24Um you know, I think you want particular
2:41:27food that's extremely tasty, you can
2:41:29order it to your door.
2:41:30Um this is
2:41:32not potentially problematic, this is
2:41:34problematic. What it requires
2:41:35ultimately, however,
2:41:37I believe, is self-regulatory
2:41:40mechanisms. There is no way that
2:41:43legislature is going to prevent us from
2:41:46having access to things. It's just not
2:41:49because people have always found a way.
2:41:52You know, I mean, you think about um
2:41:53prescription drugs that deliver dopamine
2:41:56without much effort. You know, even if
2:41:58people don't have a prescription, I
2:41:59think the data are something like 80% of
2:42:01college students have taken prescription
2:42:03stimulants without a prescription. I
2:42:05mean, when I went to college, nobody did
2:42:07that. Nobody. We drank coffee,
2:42:10occasionally someone would take a NoDoz,
2:42:11like a caffeine pill or something, and
2:42:13that was considered extreme and I still
2:42:14don't recommend it. Now, you know,
2:42:16there's all this consumption of
2:42:17pharmacology, there's consumption of
2:42:20porn, and I think that successful
2:42:22individuals will learn
2:42:24and understand this relationship about
2:42:26dopamine, especially their own, and they
2:42:28will learn to regulate, and they will be
2:42:30very careful about anything that spikes
2:42:32dopamine really high without much
2:42:34preceding effort and that has the
2:42:36capacity for addiction. So, I worry far
2:42:39less about the energy drink, the loud
2:42:41music, and the workout, far, far less,
2:42:44maybe not at all, than I do
2:42:46high-intensity pornography consumed on a
2:42:48regular basis, people taking
2:42:50prescription stimulants who don't need
2:42:52them. I mean, that's a recipe for
2:42:55burnout, depression,
2:42:57or worse.
2:42:58How does this kind of dovetail into
2:43:00having meaning in your life? Because I'm
2:43:02thinking now about those young men. And
2:43:04in that sort of stereotype, they're
2:43:06maybe sat in their bedroom alone,
2:43:08probably don't have a romantic partner,
2:43:10maybe don't have a lot to be aiming at
2:43:12in their lives, and
2:43:13the group of people that fall into those
2:43:15gambling addiction behaviors or that
2:43:16pornography behavior, often times, not
2:43:19always, but often, are also lacking in
2:43:22some kind of meaning. Is there a like a
2:43:23correlation between the two? Are they
2:43:25associated? Um and does one help the
2:43:28other? If I if I go out and start
2:43:30pursuing some great goal in my life,
2:43:31start a company, am I less likely to
2:43:33then be engaging in the
2:43:34dopamine-inducing pornography addiction?
2:43:37So, to answer the second question first,
2:43:40I absolutely believe that when we are in
2:43:42pursuit of healthy goals, meaning goals
2:43:44that are building our life forward, that
2:43:45are going to improve our
2:43:47social relationships, sure, your income,
2:43:50although, you know, it's risky to just
2:43:52be in pursuit of money, right? There
2:43:54there another great way to encapsulate
2:43:56the dopamine conversation is I think
2:43:58it's in that movie Wall Street where the
2:43:59guy says, "What's your number?" You
2:44:01know, how much money do you want? And he
2:44:02just says, "More." Well, that's
2:44:03dopamine. That's the essence of
2:44:04dopamine. He just wants more. It's not
2:44:06really about a number, it's about the
2:44:07pursuit and acquisition of money for
2:44:09him. It's the verb of acquisition. It's
2:44:12not having that money. And you see this
2:44:14in people that get a million dollars,
2:44:15they want 10. They get 10, they want
2:44:17100. They get 100, they want to be a
2:44:19billionaire, right? And I can tell you
2:44:20knowing many billionaires that some of
2:44:22them are happy and some of them are
2:44:24intensely unhappy people. It really
2:44:27depends on how well they've
2:44:29managed their relationship to dopamine.
2:44:32Because ultimately, it's not about
2:44:33money, right? Dopamine is just a
2:44:34currency. So, healthy relationships are
2:44:37absolutely fundamental. Here's what we
2:44:38know. Many, many people are struggling
2:44:40nowadays from what we hear of as the
2:44:43isolation crisis. But all it takes is
2:44:46one
2:44:47trusting,
2:44:49reliable relationship to start to shift
2:44:51that in the right direction.
2:44:52I
2:44:53you know, I am so
2:44:55adamant about this. One of the most
2:44:57powerful things that anyone can do,
2:44:59believe it or not, is to have someone
2:45:01each morning that they text good morning
2:45:04to. I know this is going to sound
2:45:06trivial, corny, and I'm happy to take
2:45:08the heat on this one.
2:45:10Find a friend. And in particular, men
2:45:13who lack friends completely because
2:45:15there's a greater percentage of those,
2:45:16although it's certainly the case that
2:45:18many young women and women are
2:45:20lonely as well.
2:45:22Find someone who you can communicate
2:45:24with each morning. Just a good morning
2:45:26text.
2:45:27Seriously, this is one of the most
2:45:29powerful things you can do, to check in
2:45:31with another member of your species each
2:45:33morning. You don't have to have
2:45:34conversation, you don't have to talk
2:45:35about what you're going to do each day.
2:45:37Knowing that someone else out there in
2:45:38the world cares about us each morning
2:45:41when we wake up makes us feel incredibly
2:45:45part of the tribe.
2:45:47I do this with, let's see,
2:45:49one, two,
2:45:50two friends religiously, one
2:45:53from time to time, and a few others kind
2:45:56of kind fall in and out of the mix. It's
2:45:58an extremely powerful thing to do.
2:46:00You're part of a community. Can I ask
2:46:02that? Are you Does it matter what you
2:46:04say? Cuz in my group chats, we we tend
2:46:05to tell each other to off and stuff
2:46:07and we we roast each other.
2:46:08That's fine, too. Even better if it's
2:46:09elaborated with, "How'd you sleep? What
2:46:11are you doing today? What's your plan
2:46:12for the day?" And you reach back. Is it
2:46:15about showing concern and care for them
2:46:17and having that reciprocated, or is it
2:46:19just about the communication itself?
2:46:21Someone cares enough to think about you
2:46:24first thing in the morning. You know,
2:46:25people are really isolated. We move away
2:46:27from our families now. And by the way,
2:46:28these could be family members that
2:46:30you're communicating with.
2:46:32But
2:46:33the idea that someone is thinking of us
2:46:35first thing in the morning, even if it's
2:46:36just like a operational thing, like,
2:46:38okay, here we go. Good morning.
2:46:40The idea that there's some regularity,
2:46:41some expectation and understanding of a
2:46:44social connection that's reliable is
2:46:46immensely powerful.
2:46:48You know, I we've heard a lot even from
2:46:49the US Surgeon General about the
2:46:50isolation crisis and the need for more
2:46:52connection and certainly that
2:46:54can and should be in the form of walks
2:46:57with people, coffee, meals, etc. Yes,
2:46:59yes, and yes. But a great starting place
2:47:02that's very low bar is just a good
2:47:05morning exchange, even by text. Phone
2:47:07would be better each morning.
2:47:09I do this as an adult with two friends.
2:47:12Good morning. Good morning. If I don't
2:47:13hear from either one of them by noon, I
2:47:15start to worry a little bit, not because
2:47:17they're in in any kind of trouble, but
2:47:19it's just become such a routine part of
2:47:21my day.
2:47:22It allows you to feel part of something
2:47:25bigger than yourself. We are not meant
2:47:28to live our lives in complete isolation,
2:47:31in complete relationship only with our
2:47:33goals.
2:47:34It has to be in relation to other people
2:47:36and our goals. This is the importance of
2:47:38going to the workplace. This is the
2:47:40importance of having a place where you
2:47:41work. If you don't have a place of work,
2:47:44going to a cafe or a library, seeing
2:47:46faces in the morning. Now, some people
2:47:48don't want to see any faces in the
2:47:49morning. They're not ready to quote
2:47:50unquote face the day. That's fine. But
2:47:52at some point, seeing other people for
2:47:54some period of time, even just briefly
2:47:56on the street, saying hello, vitally
2:47:58important. You know, we evolved we we
2:48:00are a primate species. We are old world
2:48:02primates. We evolved to look other
2:48:03people in the eye and for them to look
2:48:05back at us, even if just to say, "Hi."
2:48:07as they walk their dog. Now, some people
2:48:09don't have anyone. It's really sad, but
2:48:12some people don't have anyone to even
2:48:13exchange this basic text with.
2:48:16In that case, I highly recommend that
2:48:18you adopt an animal. A dog can
2:48:20accomplish a tremendous amount, not
2:48:21everything, but a tremendous amount in
2:48:23terms of making us feel connected. We
2:48:25are then a caretaker, they're taking
2:48:26care of us. There's empathy there.
2:48:29There's all sorts of wonderful things.
2:48:30If you can't have that, you can get a
2:48:32fish. Seriously, some being, a a
2:48:35some living being that we're responsible
2:48:38for and that relies on us,
2:48:39and to some extent that we rely on as
2:48:41well,
2:48:42is so crucial. We have huge amounts of
2:48:46neural real estate devoted to this,
2:48:48humans especially. You know, most of the
2:48:50brain is designed for visual processing,
2:48:52for movement, and then you start to look
2:48:54at okay, like what's kind of the third
2:48:55element? Well, it's language and social
2:48:57connection.
2:48:59So,
2:49:00find someone that you can exchange a
2:49:01morning text with on a consistent basis,
2:49:03ideally every day. Does this come
2:49:05naturally to you? Because you don't
2:49:06strike me as an individual that this
2:49:09comes naturally to. I'm not also. Okay,
2:49:11you mean I'm I'm a bit of a a loner, is
2:49:13that the sense you get?
2:49:14I'm a loner.
2:49:15I I would be perfectly okay. There was a
2:49:17year of my life where I feel like I
2:49:18didn't interact with anyone when I was
2:49:19building my first business in a small
2:49:21room in a rough area of the UK, but I'm
2:49:24someone who
2:49:25if left to my own devices, probably
2:49:28wouldn't interact with anybody.
2:49:30And but I you strike me as the same. I
2:49:31have my dog as well, but Yeah, a bit. I
2:49:33don't have a dog right now. I'm getting
2:49:34another one soon. I must say I can spend
2:49:37long periods of time alone, but I crave
2:49:39social connection and more so as I get
2:49:40older.
2:49:41You know, I think um
2:49:43most of the challenges in my life have
2:49:45been around trying to resolve
2:49:48the need to get work done that I'm
2:49:50really passionate about
2:49:53and the
2:49:54let's just call it what it is, the
2:49:55isolation required for that, the
2:49:57discipline, the organization that's
2:49:58required for that,
2:50:00and the desire to to be socially
2:50:02connected. Now, I've been very fortunate
2:50:05to have a lot of really close friends
2:50:07and I'm in communication with them on a
2:50:09regular basis and I've been
2:50:11closer to some than others. There's some
2:50:13that I'm really close with, I talk to
2:50:15all the time every day. I'm close with
2:50:17my sister.
2:50:18I talk to my parents a fair amount, you
2:50:19know, more than some, less than others,
2:50:21depends on the family structure. Um
2:50:24and a few friends are just absolutely
2:50:26central to my life and well-being. I
2:50:28think when you have a romantic partner
2:50:30that you live with or that you're in
2:50:31communication with,
2:50:32then becomes more frequent, but even
2:50:34there, you know, I think it's important
2:50:36to still maintain healthy friendships.
2:50:37And of course, people differ on this
2:50:39spectrum. I don't think you need a lot
2:50:40of friends. I think you need one really
2:50:42reliable good friend or more, depending
2:50:45on, you know, what your needs are. And I
2:50:47think that
2:50:49as I've gotten older, I realized that,
2:50:51you know, that the best things in life,
2:50:52success in particular, but also hard
2:50:55times are best shared with other people.
2:50:57And the best way to make friends,
2:50:59really, is
2:51:01twofold. You know, a friend of mine once
2:51:02said this, he said, you know, people
2:51:04with interests are interesting.
2:51:06So, people So, if you're interested in
2:51:07things, you know, going and interacting
2:51:10with those things, even if they're
2:51:11within books, etc., have interests,
2:51:13genuine interest, don't just learn
2:51:15things for learning's sake, but just
2:51:17have interests.
2:51:18And then the other
2:51:19is that
2:51:21if you are not the sort of person for
2:51:23whom like friendships are just pouring
2:51:25over you and people want your time,
2:51:27then
2:51:28be of service.
2:51:30You know, this notion of be the person
2:51:32who sends the good morning text. Now, if
2:51:33somebody never reciprocates, well then
2:51:35okay, maybe you look elsewhere and and
2:51:38send your your energy elsewhere. But be
2:51:40the person who checks up on somebody, on
2:51:43a family member or friend on a regular
2:51:45basis. Be the person of service and um
2:51:47you can volunteer, you can help people
2:51:49in any number of ways.
2:51:51I mean, the great thing about a dog or
2:51:52just taking walks is that you
2:51:55you'll find if you do it continually in
2:51:57the same neighborhood over and over, you
2:51:58start to run into the same people and it
2:52:00becomes a hello, maybe they become a
2:52:01friend, maybe it's just the familiarity,
2:52:03maybe it's the barista that you say
2:52:05hello to each morning. You know, these
2:52:06things are really what
2:52:08I think we evolved I In fact, I know we
2:52:10evolved to do and they trigger
2:52:12activation of these circuits that are so
2:52:13fundamental to our sense of of
2:52:15well-being and safety. It It largely has
2:52:18to do with our ability to predict the
2:52:19future. I mean, right now we're in a
2:52:21political landscape and a
2:52:23you know, just a world landscape that's
2:52:25so uncertain and so divisive, you know,
2:52:27just having some things that are just
2:52:29good
2:52:30let's just call it what it is, goodness,
2:52:32just good-natured humans
2:52:34being good-natured, you know, being kind
2:52:37to one another and not in any kind of a
2:52:40manipulative way, just really being kind
2:52:42to one another. And then
2:52:44upon that, one can layer, you know, a
2:52:46couple extra hours of work where you're
2:52:48highly motivated then getting back out.
2:52:49Take your
2:52:50you know, your lunch outside and maybe
2:52:52you don't see anybody. You know, people
2:52:53who are isolated probably have to do
2:52:55more work to interact with other people,
2:52:57but there are ways to do this.
2:52:59And
2:53:00you know, for people that struggle with
2:53:01addictions like the pornography
2:53:03addictions or alcohol, drug addictions
2:53:05and other like behavioral addictions,
2:53:08I mean, there are zero cost programs
2:53:10essentially in every city around the
2:53:12world that people can access some of the
2:53:14social connection and support for those
2:53:16that again are completely zero cost.
2:53:18For people that um are interested in
2:53:21exercise, you know, there's usually like
2:53:23running groups. There's usually a
2:53:24threshold one has to get over. I'm not
2:53:25one to join a running group or work out
2:53:27with other people. This is not my kind
2:53:29of thing, but I do require, I've found,
2:53:33um I need healthy social connection.
2:53:36When did you figure that out? Because
2:53:37there was a an age where I can tell
2:53:38exactly when I figured it out, so I know
2:53:40there must be one for you where you kind
2:53:41of figure it out.
2:53:42Yeah. I mean, I grew up in a big pack of
2:53:44boys at the end of my street growing up.
2:53:46Uh we all played together. Then
2:53:48skateboarding in that world, I was just
2:53:50really surrounded by people all the
2:53:52time. When I got serious about school
2:53:56and research, there were a lot of days
2:53:58and nights I was alone. And at that
2:54:00time, I'd listen to books or I'd listen
2:54:02to music. Um I still had friends, but I
2:54:05was less social. And I think it wasn't
2:54:07really until my mid-30s that it that I
2:54:09started to realize like, whoa, like
2:54:11okay, even though, you know, I had a
2:54:12girlfriend, I was I was lonely and I was
2:54:15starting to accumulate some unhealthy
2:54:16patterns of behavior where I was just
2:54:19seeking connection in unhealthy ways.
2:54:21And as I've built up my friendship
2:54:22group, and that also of course requires
2:54:24being a good friend. And I suppose there
2:54:26are a few people out there that probably
2:54:28say that I'm an unreliable friend, but I
2:54:30think if you were to pull my
2:54:3210 or 15 closest friends,
2:54:34they'll tell you I'm the guy that checks
2:54:35in. Now, I've probably upset a few
2:54:37people cuz I don't check in on
2:54:39everybody, but it's true. I've got a
2:54:40list Actually have a list, it's not in
2:54:41this notebook, of about 10 or 15 people.
2:54:44It's a list of 30 people total that
2:54:47those are my core people and I make it a
2:54:49point. It's not because I'm regimented
2:54:51or protocoling any of this. I make it a
2:54:53point to check in on that person. I
2:54:55haven't called that person in a little
2:54:56while. But then there's that core group
2:54:57of people that I make sure to check in
2:54:59with every day, at least every week,
2:55:02and that like without whom like I don't
2:55:04really want to live. It's not that I
2:55:06want to die, but life's just so much
2:55:08better with those people in my life.
2:55:10Yeah, how does someone make that list?
2:55:12That 15 names you have?
2:55:14It's all feel. It's the people that I
2:55:17accept and that accept me. You know, my
2:55:19patterns of communication are a little
2:55:21weird. It's gotten me into trouble in
2:55:22life for sure. I'll be, you know, a good
2:55:25friend of mine once said, you know, that
2:55:26I'm like the little um orbiting uh
2:55:29flying robot in Star Wars. I'm like
2:55:31there and then I'm gone.
2:55:34And people that know me, and by the way,
2:55:36he's a very close friend, know that I'm
2:55:38gone, but I but I'm back.
2:55:40And so, I tend to give things my full
2:55:42attention. I'm like 10 out of 10
2:55:44attention and then I need my space to
2:55:46reset. And that hasn't always
2:55:50been healthy, but I've done my best to
2:55:51try and get better at it over time. And
2:55:54people that make that list are either
2:55:56the same way, a few a few of them are
2:55:58definitely the same way where I'm like,
2:55:59hey, I haven't heard from them in a
2:56:00while, but then when I sit down with
2:56:01them or we have a phone call, it's like
2:56:03they're really there. In fact, some of
2:56:04these people will say, let's talk
2:56:05tomorrow, let's talk tomorrow and it
2:56:06never happens.
2:56:08And I know they're not flaky. I know
2:56:10that they're doing other things. And
2:56:11then when they're ready and we get on a
2:56:13call,
2:56:15man, it's the richest interaction I've
2:56:17ever had. It's so deep and so rich. I'm
2:56:19like, I get so much out of a 10-minute
2:56:21conversation. It's like, yes, or an
2:56:23hour-long conversation. And then there
2:56:25are friends that I'll hang out with for
2:56:26a week, I'll go visit, um go for a hike
2:56:29with,
2:56:30but it's the richness of the interaction
2:56:32that matters for me. Not the frequency.
2:56:34Not the frequency. That's right. And
2:56:36then for me, I think people who consider
2:56:39me a good friend or people who
2:56:41understand
2:56:43the intensity that I bring to things and
2:56:46you know, the love and care that I
2:56:47really have for them and that if they
2:56:49need me, I'm there. Like I will tell you
2:56:53I've hit some hard times, some recently,
2:56:56and it was amazing. I had people
2:56:57descending on my home to be with me. You
2:56:59know, I'll tear up if I talk about it.
2:57:01Some of them are names people are
2:57:03familiar with in the in the podcast
2:57:04space.
2:57:05And
2:57:07I was like, oh my goodness, like I
2:57:10like I've not had that.
2:57:12You know,
2:57:12I will get uh emotional.
2:57:15You know, they came to my home and they
2:57:17sat with me
2:57:18and
2:57:19yeah, they picked me up
2:57:22and they reminded me who I am.
2:57:24And um
2:57:27you know, I I've just such immense
2:57:28gratitude for that.
2:57:30Um you know, I'm a 49-year-old man. Um
2:57:34I've done some things correctly. I've
2:57:35done some things I regret.
2:57:38Um
2:57:39I've strived to be the best person I
2:57:42could be at the time, doing the best I
2:57:43had with what I had.
2:57:45And they know that. And I know they know
2:57:48that, not just because they told me, but
2:57:49like you can feel it.
2:57:51And I've been blessed enough not just to
2:57:53know these people, but also
2:57:56that
2:57:57when they've been in need that I've had
2:57:58the opportunity to go to them.
2:58:00You know, and I had to do that several
2:58:02times recently. Things that had nothing
2:58:04to do with me. You just
2:58:06sometimes people will outright ask for
2:58:08help.
2:58:09Sometimes they'll say they're in danger.
2:58:10Sometimes you just sense it. And it's
2:58:12like, that's it. I'm driving, you know,
2:58:15um getting in the car.
2:58:17And um
2:58:18and I've learned the best thing, the way
2:58:20you build that kind of friendship and
2:58:22network
2:58:23is by showing up when that
2:58:26hard stuff isn't happening.
2:58:28And you try and give your full
2:58:30attention.
2:58:31And sometimes that requires putting away
2:58:32the phone and sometimes it means you're
2:58:34both on your phones and you're just
2:58:35hanging out and you're watching a game
2:58:36or you know, it it doesn't mean being
2:58:38what forcing yourself to be somebody
2:58:40you're not, but it means paying
2:58:42attention.
2:58:43And um
2:58:46yeah, and giving giving a significant
2:58:47portion of ourselves to try and
2:58:49really like be there for people. Because
2:58:51ultimately I think
2:58:53that's what we want in social
2:58:54interactions.
2:58:55You know,
2:58:57we want listening, we want shared
2:58:58experience, we want all that stuff.
2:59:01And that stuff's great, but ultimately
2:59:03it's like
2:59:04when you ask who makes the list, it's
2:59:05like
2:59:06I'm thinking of these people now, it's
2:59:07like I feel like they're always with me.
2:59:10You know, and um
2:59:13I wouldn't trade any amount of money,
2:59:15any amount of anything for that.
2:59:17And I think that
2:59:19like a really good life
2:59:21includes some of that.
2:59:24So, you know, forgive me for being
2:59:26emotional um or don't. It doesn't really
2:59:29matter to me. I just feel
2:59:30like uh
2:59:32that's the real stuff that makes life
2:59:35really worth living. And it has nothing
2:59:38to do, you know,
2:59:40uh with dopamine or uh maybe it does or
2:59:44it doesn't matter what the mechanisms
2:59:46are.
2:59:46What matters is that we all have that
2:59:48capacity and it starts by just showing
2:59:51up on a regular basis, showing somebody
2:59:52that you can
2:59:54care about them enough to think about
2:59:55them each morning
2:59:57and and send them a quick good morning
2:59:58text. That's it. And if they don't
3:00:00reply, okay.
3:00:02And if they do, okay.
3:00:04And once the reciprocation starts and
3:00:06you start to feel kind of crewed up just
3:00:09a little bit.
3:00:10Like, oh wow, like there's something I
3:00:12can rely on in this crazy, dizzying,
3:00:15sometimes exhausting
3:00:17really hard life.
3:00:20And then when the good stuff happens,
3:00:21you got that many more people to
3:00:23celebrate with and that much more
3:00:25intensely. So,
3:00:28yeah.
3:00:29Appreciate you letting me share that.
3:00:30It's um
3:00:31it's something that uh
3:00:34at this stage of life, I'm like, okay.
3:00:36Like
3:00:38I know a few things, there's a lot I
3:00:39still have to learn, but
3:00:41that one's for sure.
3:00:43Yeah, friendship is
3:00:47it's vital.
3:00:51You went through a bit of a bit of a
3:00:52storm this year to say the least and
3:00:54I've been through many a storm in my
3:00:55life. I've been through many a media
3:00:56storm when the media came for me and
3:00:58wrote things about me and I've And I
3:01:00don't think anyone that's not been
3:01:01through that before understands how it
3:01:03feels because for me when it happens to
3:01:05me, there's this real sense of injustice
3:01:07and there's this desire for me to want
3:01:09to jump out and correct things and
3:01:10scream and shout and correct the world,
3:01:11but I also know that I can't. And I when
3:01:15I saw
3:01:16again, I didn't see anything, but I'm
3:01:17from afar looking at, you know, social
3:01:19media, when I saw you going through a
3:01:20similar thing my two things happened.
3:01:23The thing one was I wanted to understand
3:01:25the protocols of a man who writes about
3:01:28protocols, has a book coming out about
3:01:29protocols. I wanted to understand what
3:01:31he does in that situation and if he's
3:01:32any more immune than I am because I'm
3:01:33certainly fragile in that regard. But
3:01:35then also I saw this other wonderful
3:01:36thing which I think you've expressed
3:01:37there is I saw
3:01:40your friends show up.
3:01:42I I saw them speak out
3:01:45about your character and who you
3:01:46actually are. And I saw them literally
3:01:49show up at your location. I saw someone
3:01:51like Lex Friedman show up for you. Yeah,
3:01:53showed up at my home
3:01:54several times. He
3:01:56He was just there like literally one day
3:01:58I just like look up and Lex is in the
3:02:00room.
3:02:01And see how I like a dream, right? Like
3:02:03like like Lex Friedman with the suit and
3:02:05the whole thing and um
3:02:07he was just there to just be there, you
3:02:09know. Um
3:02:11yeah, that was a
3:02:12challenge. Um you know, as you pointed
3:02:14out the hardest thing about that and I
3:02:17I realize like most people who aren't
3:02:19public facing
3:02:20um won't experience this, but I think
3:02:22everybody experiences something similar
3:02:24at some point in their life, especially
3:02:26now with social media
3:02:28where things that are being said about
3:02:30you are just fundamentally not true.
3:02:34Fundamentally not true.
3:02:36And they're being cast in a way in a
3:02:38context that is just
3:02:40wrong.
3:02:42And you want to say, "No, that's not how
3:02:45it was." Or the context is completely
3:02:47wrong or there's a completely other side
3:02:49of the story that you'd love to tell.
3:02:51But either
3:02:53because of how that will land and how
3:02:56people misperceive or contort that
3:03:00or simply because
3:03:02you have the etiquette
3:03:05and the respect to not do that because
3:03:07there are sometimes many different
3:03:08parties involved.
3:03:10Um
3:03:13you refrain.
3:03:15And in our case, I decided to just
3:03:18mainly focus on the work at hand.
3:03:20Although I've talked a bit about this on
3:03:21Jocko Willink's podcast.
3:03:23I'll be talking about it here.
3:03:25The pain comes from being
3:03:28potentially misunderstood.
3:03:30And also from the understanding that we
3:03:32didn't always necessarily do everything
3:03:34right. In fact, we may have made some
3:03:36mistakes.
3:03:37And the understanding that
3:03:40the public forum is not the place to
3:03:41work out the details of that. That's not
3:03:43how healing comes. Despite what people
3:03:45might believe, that is not how healing
3:03:46comes. And I don't care if it's a
3:03:49high school situation or a podcaster or
3:03:52a celebrity or a politician, that is
3:03:54just not the way that humans
3:03:56effectively settle their differences.
3:03:59There are consequences, but it's not how
3:04:01things really get settled. And I think
3:04:02we have proof of that given the last few
3:04:04years.
3:04:05So,
3:04:07in that case
3:04:08and I'm not trying to be diplomatic or,
3:04:10you know, kind of um slalom through
3:04:12this. I think what I'm trying to do is
3:04:14make it effective and hopefully useful
3:04:16for everybody. What do you do when
3:04:19you're hearing and seeing things about
3:04:20you or others that you affiliate with
3:04:22that you just fundamentally disagree
3:04:24with?
3:04:25Well, you have three options. You can
3:04:26counter the narrative.
3:04:28You can say nothing. Right? Or you can
3:04:30agree. And herein I think lies the
3:04:33challenge in being an adult, a real
3:04:36adult in the realest sense of the word.
3:04:38A real adult knows when to say,
3:04:42"You know what?
3:04:43Some of the stuff they're saying,
3:04:46yeah.
3:04:47Wish I'd chosen differently."
3:04:50But a real adult also knows to say, "But
3:04:52some of the stuff they're saying, no.
3:04:55That is not what happened, that's not
3:04:57the context and this is categorically
3:04:59false." Now, those things often are
3:05:01interdigitated, okay? Now, at the
3:05:03extremes they're not interdigitated, but
3:05:05oftentimes they're interdigitated.
3:05:07And what people have to realize is that
3:05:09online in comments, in certain forms of
3:05:12media
3:05:13it's just highly skewed. You're getting
3:05:15just one perspective. In the context of
3:05:17science, we'd say this is like
3:05:19cherry-picking data, looking at one
3:05:20particular portion of the graph or
3:05:22throwing out a bunch of experiments
3:05:23because the data weren't what you
3:05:24wanted, which in science is like
3:05:27terrible.
3:05:29Only second in terms of terrible to
3:05:30actually making up data, right? Okay?
3:05:33So,
3:05:34I think the challenge is
3:05:37to the
3:05:38to So, I know that the challenge in
3:05:40those circumstances is to do what in the
3:05:42end I ended up doing, which was to sit
3:05:44down
3:05:45and realize that was the circumstance I
3:05:47was in.
3:05:48And then to try and make a really good
3:05:50decision about what to do.
3:05:53And that I do believe is best achieved
3:05:55through having
3:05:57really good friends, really good
3:05:58co-workers and family members
3:06:01who can
3:06:03be really clear optics for you when you
3:06:05don't always have the clearest optics.
3:06:06Meaning they can
3:06:08hear your ideas and you can spitball
3:06:11what might happen in case A, B or C, but
3:06:13it's not about being tactical. It's not
3:06:15about being strategic. It's about
3:06:17remaining true to yourself. And in my
3:06:18case,
3:06:21I just felt that I didn't want to get
3:06:23into the details.
3:06:25Um
3:06:26and at the same time I acknowledge
3:06:29there's always a learning in these
3:06:30things.
3:06:31You asked whether or not knowing
3:06:32protocols can help. Well, certainly
3:06:35sleep was important. I managed to sleep.
3:06:38There were some days I slept less than
3:06:39others.
3:06:40People had theories. He looks tired,
3:06:42this and that. Sometimes that was
3:06:42related to earlier recordings that I
3:06:44tended to just push too hard anyway. Um
3:06:46sometimes it related to, you know, being
3:06:48kind of troubled about the
3:06:49circumstances. So,
3:06:52I think that
3:06:54one can use physiological size, you can
3:06:56use non-sleep deep rest and I certainly
3:06:59relied on those tools and continue to.
3:07:02Friendship and social support, getting
3:07:05a
3:07:06pool of opinion from people that you
3:07:07really trust. You don't want to get too
3:07:09many opinions
3:07:11often. You want to get just enough and
3:07:13just a variety of them that you can make
3:07:15the best informed decision. I don't
3:07:16really believe in
3:07:18polling 100 people about a circumstance
3:07:21and then you know, taking a vote, pros
3:07:23and cons. That the mind doesn't work
3:07:24that way.
3:07:26So, in the end, you know, I I voted my
3:07:29conscience and I voted my heart um by
3:07:32continuing to just put out content so
3:07:34people could learn about science-based
3:07:37tools for mental health, physical health
3:07:38and performance. I think as time goes
3:07:40on, I may elaborate more on some of the
3:07:42circumstances.
3:07:43But
3:07:44I think in the end, you know, people
3:07:45listen to my podcast because they're
3:07:47interested in getting better sleep, in
3:07:49exercise protocols and hearing from the
3:07:51best scientists and clinicians
3:07:54so that they can better themselves in
3:07:55their own life.
3:07:56And people speculate all sorts of
3:07:58things. It's also interesting to see how
3:08:00we presume so much, not just about
3:08:02public facing people, but about other
3:08:05people in the comment section. You know,
3:08:07for instance, on my Instagram page
3:08:10I have rules. It's classroom rules. You
3:08:12can call me names if you want. You can
3:08:14say most things, but I sort of treat it
3:08:16like a classroom. What would I tolerate
3:08:18in the classroom? And if people start
3:08:19attacking each other,
3:08:21you're going to get a warning and if you
3:08:22keep going, I'm going to block you. Just
3:08:24just because
3:08:26first of all, it's my page, right? This
3:08:28whole notion that you're not allowed to
3:08:30block people is crazy, right? It's your
3:08:31webpage, it's your classroom.
3:08:33Yeah. You have every right. You can say
3:08:35what you can do whatever you want. I
3:08:37mean, where is the rule that says that
3:08:38you won't tolerate
3:08:40or that you need to tolerate whatever.
3:08:42You know, people swearing at each other
3:08:44very different to me than people
3:08:46swearing. So, people can swear, fine.
3:08:47Swear at each other? Well, then I'm
3:08:49going to say, "Hey, hey, hey, like stop
3:08:50this. Do it again, you're done." Least
3:08:52here, go elsewhere. And
3:08:54there's so much presumption. We think we
3:08:56know these people on the internet. And
3:08:59we really don't. Mhm. On the other hand,
3:09:00there's certain people like Lex, like
3:09:02you. I'm really delighted in this
3:09:04conversation. Like Rick. I like to think
3:09:06like me, like I am who I am. Now, you're
3:09:08not seeing every dimension of my life,
3:09:10but frankly, you're not supposed to.
3:09:13And I think there's this inherent desire
3:09:14to know everything about everybody Mhm.
3:09:17um that we see online and comment
3:09:20sections and on Instagram. And And
3:09:22frankly, it's inappropriate. I grew up
3:09:23in an era where
3:09:25that wasn't right. In fact, my my father
3:09:27um once told me he Again, he's from
3:09:29Argentina. And he said, "You know,
3:09:30there's this funny thing in the United
3:09:32States. You go into somebody's office
3:09:33and they've got all these pictures of
3:09:34their kids
3:09:36facing outward." He said, "You go into
3:09:37somebody's office
3:09:38in certain parts of Europe or in South
3:09:41America and the picture of their family
3:09:43is facing them."
3:09:45So, on my dad's desk in his office
3:09:47when I was a kid, he had a picture of me
3:09:48and my sister and my mom and it faced
3:09:50him. Mhm. Because those are for him. He
3:09:52wasn't like, "Here are my kids. Here's
3:09:54my Here's like my life." And I I love
3:09:56that. That's And that's kind of how I
3:09:57was raised. You know, you you keep
3:09:59certain things inward and certain things
3:10:00are outward. So, I don't know. I I
3:10:03That's the model I was raised with and I
3:10:05rather like that. This notion that we
3:10:06have to share every aspect of ourselves
3:10:08on social media is crazy and I think
3:10:11it's actually detrimental.
3:10:13If I was if I was a fly on the wall when
3:10:15you were going through that what would I
3:10:16have seen? And I what I cuz I'm what I'm
3:10:18trying to The reason I'm asking this
3:10:20question is super clear because if you
3:10:21were a fly on the wall when I was going
3:10:23through some of my hardest times you
3:10:25would have seen someone that was really
3:10:26struggling.
3:10:28Okay, so I'll say this.
3:10:31That was definitely not my hardest time.
3:10:34Um hardest times for me were
3:10:39the door's locked. I'm 14.
3:10:43I'm like behind locked doors.
3:10:45Mhm. I don't know if I'm going to get
3:10:46out, when I'm going to get out.
3:10:48You know, I
3:10:50called the one person I knew would pick
3:10:51up, guy named Steve Rougie, Shrugie. He
3:10:54was my team manager for Thunder and
3:10:55Spitfire Wheels. I called him, I said,
3:10:57"Shrugie, what am what am I going to do?
3:10:59I'm locked up in this place." And his
3:11:00response was "Bro, you're the most
3:11:02normal guy I know. What am I supposed to
3:11:04do?" You know, I thought, "Oh my
3:11:06goodness, what am I going to do?"
3:11:08Um
3:11:09Yeah, that was scary. That was like,
3:11:11"What do I do? I'm 14. I have no agency.
3:11:13I I don't I don't mean like marketing
3:11:15agency. I had no ability to like no
3:11:17money, no anything." Now, it worked out.
3:11:20Other hard times, that time I talked
3:11:22about July 4th after that fight, "What
3:11:24am I going to do with my life? I'm a
3:11:25complete loser." Other times
3:11:28you know, I've had this weird karma with
3:11:30mentors. I've had three amazing
3:11:32scientific mentors. And the relationship
3:11:34between mentors and science
3:11:36mentor and students in science used to
3:11:38be much closer. You'd get really close.
3:11:40My undergraduate advisor was an amazing
3:11:42person. My graduate advisor was like a
3:11:44mother to me and was a truly amazing
3:11:46individual. And my post-doc advisor,
3:11:48also incredible and I was incredibly
3:11:50close with all of them. And it was
3:11:51suicide, cancer and dead at 50, cancer
3:11:54and dead early 60s.
3:11:56Like three people I was super close
3:11:58with. And when Ben, the third guy, died,
3:12:00I thought, "Well, there's only one
3:12:01common denominator. That's me." I
3:12:02thought I was cursed.
3:12:04Really? Yeah. I'm like, "I work for you,
3:12:06you die."
3:12:07You know, and I was like
3:12:10"Shit, like what is going on here?" But
3:12:12then I
3:12:14did what I only
3:12:15know how to do, which is you transmute
3:12:17the
3:12:18pain into useful things. And I started
3:12:20thinking, "Okay, how do I want to spend
3:12:22the rest of my life? I want to be of
3:12:23service. I want to take what I know in
3:12:24science. I want to teach people things
3:12:26that help them." And I didn't know
3:12:27exactly how I was going to do that, but
3:12:29it birthed the podcast.
3:12:32I also had three dead mentors. I was a
3:12:34scientific orphan. In science, there's
3:12:36also a lot of trying to live up to the
3:12:38reputation that they expect of you.
3:12:39Well, mine are all dead. So, some people
3:12:41say, "What do your colleagues think of
3:12:42the podcast?" I would say about a third
3:12:44of them like it. They think it's cool.
3:12:46And they say that to me. About a third
3:12:48probably think it's great that people
3:12:49pay attention to science, but are like,
3:12:51"Some of it is more health-oriented."
3:12:52And the third probably hate it for
3:12:54whatever reason. Either jealousy or they
3:12:55don't like the way I present things. And
3:12:57I'm good with all of that cuz guess
3:12:58what? My advisors are dead. I'm a
3:13:00grown-up. You do you, I'll do me. We're
3:13:02all good.
3:13:03And frankly
3:13:05we'll see how it all works out.
3:13:06Meaning
3:13:08they're the ones who have to live with
3:13:10themselves. I'm the one who has to live
3:13:11with me. So, like I'm not
3:13:13responsible for other people's feelings
3:13:14and they're not responsible for me. So,
3:13:17cool. So, it's symbiotic.
3:13:20What I eventually discovered was
3:13:22huh, you can reach 40 and have a great
3:13:25career. I was tenured at Stanford and a
3:13:27bunch of things, but wow, like certain
3:13:29aspects of my life were still
3:13:30challenging. I had you know, those three
3:13:33deaths plus you know, um this was some
3:13:36years ago, unrelated to the recent
3:13:37events. I you know, I had a really
3:13:39important relationship end.
3:13:41Just like end after a lot of years of
3:13:43really slogging it out and trying to
3:13:44make it work and you know, failure is
3:13:47not something I'm used to. In fact, a
3:13:48friend of this woman um I was at a at a
3:13:51retreat and we were talking about it and
3:13:53I was really distraught about the end of
3:13:54the relationship. And she said, "You're
3:13:55not used to failing, are you?"
3:13:58And I
3:13:59almost said like, "Yeah." And I said,
3:14:00"You're right. You're right. I've I've
3:14:02been successful in career and and a
3:14:04relation a relationship that I we were
3:14:06both really invested in and we just
3:14:07didn't have the skills. I made my
3:14:09mistakes, she made hers, but we really
3:14:12really fought hard.
3:14:13And it didn't work out. And I was like,
3:14:16"Wow, like okay, I had a failure. Like a
3:14:18legitimate failure."
3:14:20And you could say, "Well, was it really
3:14:21a failure? You learned." But look, there
3:14:23were elements of failure. All right? We
3:14:25had invested a lot of years, a lot of
3:14:27energy and there was a lot of love, but
3:14:29Why Why does that make you emotional? I
3:14:31can see it in your face. It's Um well,
3:14:33this relates to a lot of these things
3:14:34that I um and I I suppose I I feel
3:14:37comfortable enough to open up about
3:14:38this. I think that
3:14:40you know,
3:14:41some people might have the perception
3:14:42that I'm like extremely self-interested.
3:14:44I've had
3:14:46things thrown at me like, "He's a
3:14:47narcissist." Or what Or worse, you know.
3:14:50Like I have had one I've had many, but I
3:14:53have one particular major challenge
3:14:56that I still strive to overcome.
3:14:59And people can roll their eyes and they
3:15:01can say it's but I know this
3:15:02to be absolutely true, which is that
3:15:05I have a very hard time letting go.
3:15:08A very hard time letting go. If somebody
3:15:09dies, like I can handle that.
3:15:12But
3:15:13like loss and letting go of people I
3:15:17care about
3:15:18is really hard. And it's also coupled
3:15:21with this kind of style that I have of
3:15:23I'm like very present and then I need to
3:15:24go take care of myself, right? Um in
3:15:27healthy ways.
3:15:28So, that can be confusing to people. I
3:15:30realize that, but there's this thing
3:15:32where
3:15:34like the idea of things ending is super
3:15:38hard. And as a consequence, I've stayed
3:15:40in relationships
3:15:41far too long.
3:15:43I mean, you know, I sometimes joke, but
3:15:45it's not funny. My breakup protocol
3:15:47sucks and it really needs work because
3:15:51everyone close to me who knows me really
3:15:52well and who I trust says
3:15:55"You stay in relationships way too long
3:15:57that were either fated to fail or that
3:16:00were clearly going to fail. At some
3:16:02point, you just kept slogging away."
3:16:04Now, sometimes I slogged away in the
3:16:06wrong ways and they did, too.
3:16:08But somehow I've um
3:16:10I've really struggled to move on from
3:16:12things. And as a consequence, I've
3:16:14stayed in things far too long that never
3:16:16had a chance, that were really
3:16:17unhealthy. And in particular, I've taken
3:16:20on things that were just
3:16:21far too difficult from the beginning.
3:16:23And so, that relationship was a
3:16:25beautiful relationship. I'm fortunate
3:16:27that I'm still friends with that person,
3:16:29although we have to keep a certain
3:16:30amount of distance just at healthy
3:16:32boundaries.
3:16:33And
3:16:35you know, I get emotional because like
3:16:38damn it, like we fought so hard. Like so
3:16:41hard. And it was all out of love.
3:16:44But I think it I know that it failed
3:16:48because
3:16:50we just didn't have the skills. The
3:16:52timing wasn't right.
3:16:54And I'm certainly not talking about this
3:16:56most recent relationship. You know, this
3:16:58year's hard stuff. This was some years
3:16:59back. But like we fought so hard. And
3:17:03like I would have done anything.
3:17:05And she would have done anything to make
3:17:07it work. And I'm just like I'm not a
3:17:09quitter.
3:17:10I'm far from perfect, believe me, but
3:17:12I'm not a quitter. And as a consequence,
3:17:14I think after that
3:17:17it for a while, it just really changed
3:17:19the way that I interacted with things. I
3:17:21I just didn't quite recover. And one
3:17:23could argue that the emotion that's
3:17:24coming up for me now means that I didn't
3:17:26recover.
3:17:27But I know I just
3:17:29I just
3:17:31refuse to call time of death.
3:17:33I just refuse to call time of death even
3:17:35when it's long since dead. And that's a
3:17:39mistake and it's something I'm really
3:17:41working on now because it hurt me. It
3:17:44it's not good for other people.
3:17:46And it dovetails with a bunch of other
3:17:48unhealthy ways of being.
3:17:50Um but what I know for sure is that
3:17:54it's not selfishness. It's not that I'm
3:17:56trying to avoid pain for myself. It's
3:17:59related to my failure to be able to
3:18:03just
3:18:05tolerate pain in other people and myself
3:18:07simultaneously. There's something about
3:18:09empathy gone wrong in those
3:18:10circumstances. Is that linked to your
3:18:11childhood? Parents Parents' separation
3:18:14and them
3:18:15Yeah, so people I pay a lot of money to
3:18:17tell me that it no doubt does. But
3:18:19what's weird is I never lament the
3:18:21separation of my parents. I don't sit
3:18:22back and go, "Oh, I wish they had stayed
3:18:23together." They were both wonderful
3:18:25people. They both have wonderful
3:18:26partners. Like I've had a magnificent
3:18:28life. I've had a great life. Like
3:18:30everything I've sought to do has
3:18:32happened. And there's still things I
3:18:34want. But I think that um
3:18:37I was talking to Martha Beck about this
3:18:39recently. There's this feeling with a
3:18:41dog
3:18:42where I love the dog
3:18:45and they love you back. Particularly my
3:18:46dog Costello, right? I loved him and he
3:18:48loves me back. And so it's like empathy,
3:18:51but then you it's returned. It's like a
3:18:52perfect circle. It's like the energy is
3:18:54like I the more I love, the more love I
3:18:55feel. The more love And I think with
3:18:57people it's not like that, right? You
3:18:58know, people are going to disappoint us,
3:18:59etc. But
3:19:01they can also delight us.
3:19:03But I think that there's been this
3:19:04problem where my empathy goes too far.
3:19:07And I'm sure as I'm saying this people
3:19:08are like, "Oh god, he's trying to mask
3:19:11this in empathy." No, I can
3:19:14wholeheartedly say didn't always lead to
3:19:15the best choices and I own those
3:19:17choices. But meaning I'll take
3:19:19responsibility for my part. I won't take
3:19:21responsibility for other people's part,
3:19:23right? It's always a two-way street. But
3:19:26when we
3:19:28have a sense of empathy and that
3:19:32other person isn't right for us and we
3:19:34continue to try and
3:19:36like feed the relationship
3:19:39it's not about trying to avoid getting
3:19:40them upset, but somehow we get into
3:19:42these unhealthy dynamics and then you
3:19:44know, it can really bring out
3:19:46the worst, but some really like
3:19:48unhealthy parts of people. You know, I
3:19:50think the probably the hardest thing in
3:19:51life is
3:19:53is romantic relationships. Some people
3:19:55might say it's work, but I think it's
3:19:57the hardest thing in life. And people
3:19:58say, "Well, when it's right, it's easy."
3:20:00I don't know. I think it depends on how
3:20:01complicated a person you are.
3:20:03You know?
3:20:04Um
3:20:05I think it depends on how complicated a
3:20:06person you are and the extent to which
3:20:08the other person is willing to do the
3:20:09work. I've really seen this. I've also
3:20:12had wonderful relationships
3:20:14whereby
3:20:16we're each willing to do the work on
3:20:18self-care
3:20:19and communication. You know, Paul Conty
3:20:22said this not on my podcast, but I think
3:20:23he was telling Whitney Cummings on a
3:20:25podcast, you know, if you were to list
3:20:27out the 100 most important things in
3:20:29romantic relationship, you would just
3:20:31say self-care and communication 50
3:20:33times.
3:20:34And I think that's absolutely true
3:20:36because we need safety. We need
3:20:38acceptance. Yes, those are foundational,
3:20:40non-negotiables, necessary, but not
3:20:42sufficient. But I think
3:20:44we need
3:20:45communication and self-care and
3:20:47those are hard. And you know, I'm still
3:20:49learning
3:20:50and trying to build those skills. I
3:20:52absolutely want a family, so this is
3:20:54super important to me. Um and I'm
3:20:57putting a ton of work and effort into
3:20:58it. So
3:20:59I didn't realize we were going to go
3:21:00into this territory, but I will say for
3:21:02people who are struggling with
3:21:03relationships just know that you know,
3:21:06you can have amazing friendships and
3:21:07still struggle with romantic
3:21:08relationships or vice versa. Like again,
3:21:10like
3:21:11friendships and I have male friends and
3:21:12female friends. Mostly male friends, but
3:21:14a few female friends
3:21:15um that I'm very close with like
3:21:18it's just
3:21:20been amazing. I have great relationship
3:21:22with my sister. I think I have a very
3:21:24good relationship with my parents, with
3:21:25my uncles and aunts. Like like
3:21:27with my co-workers, my ability to pick
3:21:30business partners and co-workers just I
3:21:33only hit bull's-eyes. Like I love my
3:21:34team and we get along great and little
3:21:37things get worked out quickly and
3:21:38um but I think everyone has one or two
3:21:40areas of life where it's a bit harder
3:21:42and
3:21:43just trying to learn the skills and I'm
3:21:44working on it like
3:21:46You and me both though, right? I I it
3:21:47didn't come naturally to me.
3:21:50separated, I was willing them to because
3:21:52I was They took They were just They hate
3:21:55Hate's a strong word. It appeared that
3:21:57they hated each other.
3:21:59For you know, watching my mother scream
3:22:00at my my father for 7 hours a day every
3:22:02My mother's Nigerian, my dad's English.
3:22:04Was It was a traumatic experience and
3:22:05the thing it left me with is this clear
3:22:08notion which I left the household with
3:22:09at 18. It was that a relationship is
3:22:12prison.
3:22:13And I was I was so hardwired into me
3:22:15because I thought my father was in
3:22:16prison. So every time someone was
3:22:18interested in me growing up, I would
3:22:19self-reject I would reject them. So I'd
3:22:21pursue them and then when they turned to
3:22:23me and said, "Okay, let's be in a
3:22:23relationship." I would
3:22:25persuade them out of it. I would tell
3:22:27them why this was a terrible idea
3:22:29because I was getting the feeling that I
3:22:30vicariously learned through my father. I
3:22:31was like, "I'm about to basically lock
3:22:33myself in a prison where this person's
3:22:35going to screw going to be able to
3:22:36control me and my freedom." So I
3:22:37rejected relationships up until about 27
3:22:40years old.
3:22:42So you know, and then even that
3:22:43relationship wasn't a straight line
3:22:44because 2 years in she turns around and
3:22:46says she doesn't like having sex with
3:22:47me. Turns out she's got her own traumas
3:22:49around sex. We have a year where she's
3:22:51on the other side of the planet. I
3:22:52didn't have the tools as you say to
3:22:54understand what how to navigate such a
3:22:56conversation. So for me I'm emasculated.
3:22:58I'm going,
3:22:59"Maybe there's something wrong with me."
3:23:02She doesn't want sex with me, dump her.
3:23:04And then but she was the right person.
3:23:06And what I the the TLDR of that story is
3:23:09a year later I end up flying to the
3:23:10other side of the world apologizing to
3:23:12this person for
3:23:14my lack of tools, my lack of
3:23:15communication skills because it was the
3:23:17right person at the wrong time.
3:23:19And we did the work.
3:23:21And that was long and it was hard and
3:23:23it's still hard, but it's in an amazing
3:23:25place at the moment.
3:23:26Oh, you're back together? Yeah, we live
3:23:28together. She's flown from back from
3:23:30Bali 2 years ago. We live together. The
3:23:32best the right person for me, but it's
3:23:35hard work. Good for you. You like hard
3:23:38work. I It's a wonderful story. I mean,
3:23:40it's a happy story regardless of
3:23:42ultimately how it turns out because one
3:23:46can sense like the real
3:23:48uh
3:23:48central chord of love there and um
3:23:52and the the desire to make it work. I
3:23:54mean, it's it's so interesting this
3:23:56notion of make it work. You know, we
3:23:57Again, just as being a functional adult
3:23:59means saying, "Yep, you're right about
3:24:02this, but no."
3:24:03Yeah. I'm going to stand my ground. In
3:24:05relationships people say relationships
3:24:07take work. Of course they do. And then
3:24:09the question is how much work relative
3:24:10to how much ease and it's highly
3:24:11individual and there's no handbook for
3:24:13this.
3:24:14There's no handbook for it and and so
3:24:17And the reward on offer cuz I was
3:24:18convinced that she was the most amazing
3:24:20person I'd ever met. It just so happened
3:24:21that she turns around to me one day and
3:24:23says she doesn't like having sex with
3:24:24me.
3:24:25Yeah, that's rough. That's rough, right?
3:24:27Especially for a young You have no
3:24:28concept of what that might be. You think
3:24:30maybe you're bad in bed or something.
3:24:32But as she did the work on herself and I
3:24:34did the work on myself, she unlocked a
3:24:35bunch of traumas around sex and how
3:24:37she'd been treated with sex as she grew
3:24:39up, which she she resolved and she's
3:24:41been very public about this. This why I
3:24:43can share it. And I did a bunch of work
3:24:44on myself and how to deal with how I
3:24:47communicate when someone says brings me
3:24:49such a thing. And after a year of her
3:24:51working on that and a year of me working
3:24:53on myself, we found ourselves in a place
3:24:55where it turns out she loves sex now.
3:24:57She's arguably more sexual than I am in
3:24:59many respects. Completely different
3:25:01individual, but it just require and I I
3:25:03have to give the ending there cuz people
3:25:05are going to be wondering.
3:25:06But it required a lot of work on me and
3:25:08myself and where I've come from in the
3:25:10situation of my my family and her and
3:25:13the experience she's been through. And
3:25:14we found ourselves together now in a
3:25:15great place.
3:25:17And that still requires work.
3:25:19But in a great place. So you know,
3:25:21everyone's everyone's struggling with
3:25:22some You know, my family's not
3:25:24great. We we're not that close. I'm not
3:25:25that close to certain
3:25:26members of my family. I've struggled
3:25:28with romantic relationships, made all
3:25:30the mistakes. I struggle with with
3:25:31platonic relationships with my friends.
3:25:34I'm not the guy that's able to check in.
3:25:35I like being alone.
3:25:37You know, it is what it is. We're all
3:25:40you know, uniquely challenged in some
3:25:42way. So I've got a great amount of
3:25:43empathy for what you shared and I I
3:25:45really appreciate you for sharing it cuz
3:25:47there's so many people that can relate
3:25:49in various ways. I'm one of them. Um and
3:25:51I think it's important cuz we don't talk
3:25:52about it enough.
3:25:54Well, thank you for sharing your
3:25:55experience and for giving me the
3:25:56opportunity to share a bit. Um
3:25:59you know, the conversation started
3:26:00around you know, hard circumstances and
3:26:03you know, it's about taking stock of
3:26:06where we trust ourselves um
3:26:09to make the right decisions, where we
3:26:11need work and
3:26:13yeah, relationships are hard, but I do
3:26:16think that well, certainly now I'm
3:26:18feeling um more ease, you know, more
3:26:20seamlessness with them. Certainly with
3:26:22friendships as I mentioned, you know, we
3:26:24all have these areas of proficiency
3:26:27where we are
3:26:28you know
3:26:29where we find that things are kind of
3:26:31easier or even easy for us. They just
3:26:33kind of happen with direct relationship
3:26:35between effort and outcome, right? And
3:26:36then these other areas where we feel
3:26:38like we're rolling a boulder uphill.
3:26:40It keeps coming back and crushing us and
3:26:41we keep doing it.
3:26:43And I think that
3:26:45you know, there's no simple or universal
3:26:47answer.
3:26:49But you know
3:26:51I think
3:26:52the rewards that come from a
3:26:55relationship where there's been a lot of
3:26:56hard work and things get resolved even
3:26:58in one little domain are so tremendous.
3:27:02You know, I think that's really um
3:27:03related to this sense that like
3:27:06when things end it's just so it feels so
3:27:08devastating. I I really believe that
3:27:11things can be talked through. I really
3:27:13do. I think that um
3:27:16you know, resent and anger
3:27:18um they don't serve anyone. They really
3:27:21don't. And people are probably hearing
3:27:24this and saying, "Well, that's a
3:27:24self-serving narrative." But really I
3:27:26I'm talking about it in in myself, too.
3:27:28I don't I don't carry any resent and any
3:27:30any anger. You know, I sometimes wish
3:27:32people had made different choices, but
3:27:34ultimately like we can't control what
3:27:36anyone else is going to do or say or
3:27:38think and that's terrifying, right?
3:27:40People can really hurt us, right? They
3:27:42can really hurt us.
3:27:43And we would love to create a world in
3:27:45which we're completely safe, but I think
3:27:46that
3:27:47a lot of the work I've been doing lately
3:27:49is really around
3:27:51um you know, kind of like touching back
3:27:53into maybe a
3:27:54younger version of myself that um wasn't
3:27:57so walled up.
3:27:58Wasn't um
3:28:01so
3:28:02focused on what's going to happen in two
3:28:04or three iterations of something. Just
3:28:06really being as present as possible.
3:28:08Really focusing as it's probably become
3:28:10clear today a few times on like the
3:28:13amazing gifts that I have in my life
3:28:14right now
3:28:16that pursuing goals is great and wanting
3:28:18things is great. Certainly, there are
3:28:19things I want and want to build, mostly
3:28:21in the domain of relationships and
3:28:22family, but
3:28:24but also just like really savoring like
3:28:27having one's health or having
3:28:29um the opportunity to sit down and have
3:28:30a conversation like this. Like Like what
3:28:32a What an extraordinary life
3:28:35we each have if we really pay attention
3:28:37to some of these gifts. I used to think
3:28:39that if we paid attention to those gifts
3:28:40and focused too much on gratitude that
3:28:42it would make us complacent. But all the
3:28:44data, of course, and my own experience
3:28:47as I do this more and more really
3:28:48emphasize how all it does is give us
3:28:50more energy, more anticipation of
3:28:54what's possible and the great things to
3:28:55come. And you know, it can all start to
3:28:58sound a little cliché like just be happy
3:29:00with what you got. There
3:29:01There's no just in that statement. I'm
3:29:03saying be happy with the things you've
3:29:06got.
3:29:07And from that state, new things emerge.
3:29:09More energy comes and you can start to
3:29:11really navigate forward, not just sit
3:29:14complacently and like stop there.
3:29:16Um I think it's our essence as
3:29:18biological beings and psychological
3:29:20beings and
3:29:22if you will, spiritual beings, if that's
3:29:23your your leaning too, to want um to
3:29:27want more. I think that's normal, but we
3:29:28have to savor what we have also. And I
3:29:30think once we savor what we have, we
3:29:32have more energy to want more and and
3:29:34that's That's the perfect circle that
3:29:37just is I guess it's more of an upward
3:29:38spiral. And here I'm sounding very
3:29:40abstract, but I could easily and, you
3:29:43know, exhaustively put everyone to sleep
3:29:46with long mechanistic descriptions of
3:29:48how research our motivation or dopamine
3:29:51or um any number of different neural
3:29:53systems or physiological systems support
3:29:55all of that. I think the most important
3:29:57thing is that people are honest with
3:29:58themselves about what they can
3:30:00reasonably work on right now, and to be
3:30:04you know,
3:30:05gentle with themselves enough to like
3:30:08coax themselves forward, but
3:30:09occasionally scruff yourself and be
3:30:10like, "It's time. You know, it's time."
3:30:13And um I don't know, it's certainly been
3:30:15life thus far. I'm still navigating, you
3:30:17know, and
3:30:19um
3:30:20I certainly don't have all the answers,
3:30:22but as I learn and I try and share what
3:30:23I do learn. What has helped you on that
3:30:25journey? That journey to really kind of
3:30:27Cuz the way I heard it is
3:30:29you're someone that's orientated towards
3:30:31pursuing your goals and you're very very
3:30:32driven in that regard, but you're you're
3:30:33kind of having to kind of Maybe this is
3:30:35not the right word, but kind of unlearn
3:30:38a natural disposition and shift more
3:30:40towards another state. You talked about
3:30:42therapy there. You're You um What has
3:30:45helped? Well, I think you know, I was
3:30:46forced into therapy as a way to get out
3:30:49of lockup. I had to To stay in high
3:30:51school, I had to go routinely, and so I
3:30:54did. Um I think it can be very helpful
3:30:57provided there's good rapport, support,
3:31:00and the person offers insight that lends
3:31:02itself to action, right? It's not just
3:31:04about finding someone to support and
3:31:06listen. Someone has to inspire action
3:31:08that makes you a better person, okay?
3:31:10That And that's really important. So
3:31:12we're not just talking about
3:31:14playing with your problems, you know, a
3:31:16story fondling as it's sometimes called.
3:31:18I think one has to understand that
3:31:20there's a relationship between
3:31:22physiology and emotion. So if I'm waking
3:31:23up and I don't feel well cuz I didn't
3:31:25sleep enough, yeah, I'll do NSDR, get
3:31:26some sunlight, and I'll go exercise, and
3:31:29generally I feel better. But I also have
3:31:31learned to not mask real feelings
3:31:33by simply trying to shift my physiology.
3:31:35Just as people are starting to learn,
3:31:36"Hey, yes, there are useful medications
3:31:38for dealing with mental health issues,
3:31:40but you still have to do the work. You
3:31:42still have to focus on building career,
3:31:43building relationships, doing the work."
3:31:46I think one of the most useful things
3:31:48that I've learned
3:31:49Again, I'm a big fan of Martha Beck.
3:31:51She's triple degreed from Harvard, but
3:31:52she also has this
3:31:54mystical, spiritual side that it really
3:31:56brings together a lot.
3:31:57I asked her recently, I said,
3:31:59"You know,
3:32:00what do you do when the thinking mind is
3:32:03like trying to analyze something,
3:32:04predict things, and then you also have
3:32:05all this feeling? Which one do you rely
3:32:07on?" She says, "Ah,
3:32:08the the way to do this is you imagine
3:32:12you have your feelings in one hand
3:32:14and your thoughts in the other, and
3:32:16they're kind of like in this battle.
3:32:17It's like, "Okay, what's going to happen
3:32:18next? What are they going to do this?
3:32:19How do they You go back and forth."
3:32:20Typically, people are texting and
3:32:21calling and looking and drinking and
3:32:23doing whatever it is to try and resolve
3:32:24this battle.
3:32:25The solution is to see that battle
3:32:28and to sit back into a this third
3:32:29position that
3:32:31she calls the compassionate observer.
3:32:34Where you're like, "Okay,
3:32:35this is
3:32:37both happening. These are both
3:32:39happening." And to sit in this third
3:32:40position where you realize trying to
3:32:42reconcile just with your thoughts or
3:32:44just with your emotions or settle down
3:32:45your emotions or settle down your
3:32:47thoughts is futile. To get in this third
3:32:49position where the acceptance of that
3:32:51suffering
3:32:52shows up, and you're able to just like
3:32:54sit with the suffering. And the moment
3:32:55she said, "Sit with the suffering," I
3:32:57was like, "No!" You know, I don't want
3:32:59that answer, but then she explained,
3:33:00"From that place of suffering,
3:33:03you start to drop into what are the
3:33:04thoughts that make you feel a little bit
3:33:06looser and more relaxed in your body?
3:33:09What are the thoughts that make you feel
3:33:10kind of more constricted?" And you just
3:33:12start to use that as a bit of a
3:33:14navigator.
3:33:15And
3:33:17start asking questions like, "You know,
3:33:19do I want to do this thing? Like do I
3:33:21want to drink this coffee or not? Am I
3:33:22just doing it compulsively? Do I want to
3:33:24exercise?" And it sounds very abstract,
3:33:26extremely woo, but the brilliance of
3:33:28what she does and the brilliance of that
3:33:30scenario is that it brings together all
3:33:33the neuroscience that we know. We have a
3:33:34thinking, analytic part of the brain
3:33:36that does what I call DPOs, duration,
3:33:38path, outcome analysis. We also have
3:33:40emotional states of the brain, the
3:33:41limbic system, it's sometimes called,
3:33:42but it's a bunch of other areas, too.
3:33:44And it doesn't know the clock or the
3:33:46calendar, as Paul Conti, brilliant
3:33:48psychiatrist, says.
3:33:49Feelings don't know that it's
3:33:52today in July 2024.
3:33:54It thinks you're 8 years old. That The
3:33:55limbic system, your emotions, they don't
3:33:58know the clock or the calendar. It
3:33:59doesn't know how old you are. It just
3:34:01knows you and circumstances and feeling.
3:34:03So being able to step back from all of
3:34:05that is really what
3:34:07being a healthy human being is about.
3:34:10And then realizing you're suffering.
3:34:12Like in that battle, you're suffering.
3:34:13And when you relax that a little bit and
3:34:15you go,
3:34:16"Okay, I'm not going to force myself to
3:34:18suffer as much. Now what feels right?
3:34:21What feels right right now for like the
3:34:22next 5 minutes?" Well, then you can
3:34:24navigate the next 5 minutes. Maybe it's
3:34:27take a nap, maybe it's have a meal,
3:34:28maybe it's do a little bit of work,
3:34:30maybe it's you don't know, and you just
3:34:31sit there. But then 5 minutes later,
3:34:33you're able to pick the next best choice
3:34:36and the next best choice, and pretty
3:34:37soon you're off and on your way. Because
3:34:39so often we get avalanched by our
3:34:42feelings or our thoughts or we can't
3:34:44sleep, and it's just like,
3:34:46And people are losing their minds and
3:34:48they're online looking for a solution,
3:34:49and they use distraction, alcohol,
3:34:52mindless scrolling. By the way, I love
3:34:53social media. I teach on social media
3:34:54and I learn on social media from your
3:34:56podcast and Joe's podcast and Lex's
3:34:58podcast and Tim's pod and on and on. So
3:35:02I'm not demonizing it, but mindless
3:35:04consumption, inebriation,
3:35:07numbing ourselves,
3:35:09or forcing ourselves to do things that
3:35:11are not in service to our well-being,
3:35:13none of that is good. What's good is
3:35:15being able to sit with it. And in doing
3:35:16that, I've started to realize that you
3:35:18get back to what she calls, and again,
3:35:20the language sounds woo, but who cares?
3:35:22She's the one with three degrees from
3:35:23Harvard, so call her whatever you want.
3:35:26You know,
3:35:28is the what she calls essential self,
3:35:30which I think refers to our own unique
3:35:32wiring. What really feels right to us.
3:35:34Trusting in our own goodness, trusting
3:35:36that
3:35:37if we just navigate forward from that
3:35:39compassionate observer place,
3:35:41that we are going to be In some cases,
3:35:44we need to be fierce, we need to be a
3:35:45warrior, in other cases, we need to be
3:35:47soft and compassionate, and then we can
3:35:49be all of those things depending on what
3:35:51the the situation calls for. And then we
3:35:53can just like sit back and move forward,
3:35:56and that
3:35:57we're going to be okay. In fact, we're
3:35:59going to be better than okay. And that
3:36:00when we bring that stance, that like
3:36:02calm, energetic stance to things and
3:36:05other people, we also have a ton to
3:36:06give. We can be in so much service. This
3:36:09is one of the reasons I think people
3:36:10love Rick.
3:36:12I think about Rick a lot. Rick Rubin's a
3:36:13close friend.
3:36:15And I'm very blessed. And it's not
3:36:17because he's Rick Rubin, the famous
3:36:18musician. In fact, I know zero minus one
3:36:20about hip-hop. Oh, yeah, I just don't It
3:36:21wasn't a genre I followed. I like some
3:36:23of it, but
3:36:24but one thing is that when Rick shows
3:36:26up, he's just like there. He's super
3:36:28present. He's not there to give you
3:36:31anything, but he gives.
3:36:33And he's not there to take anything. You
3:36:35He's just there.
3:36:36And I think that's why people love him.
3:36:39I think that's why people love him. Yes,
3:36:40he's been super successful in all these
3:36:42different domains. And when people try
3:36:43and poke at Rick, that's something that
3:36:45really pisses me off. You want to really
3:36:47get me worked up? Try and pick on one of
3:36:50my close friends. Like I That's a place
3:36:52where I am
3:36:54like, you know, come at me, attack me
3:36:57all day, and you people do. But if you
3:36:59try and attack people I know in their
3:37:01true goodness, Lex or Rick or any number
3:37:04of my different friends,
3:37:06famous or not, like that's when I'm
3:37:08going to you know, that's when a side of
3:37:10me comes out that frankly I
3:37:12I'm proud of.
3:37:13Like I'm going to hit you, and I'm going
3:37:16to hit you hard.
3:37:18I'm going to be fair, but like you can't
3:37:20do that because these are really good
3:37:21people trying to do the best they can in
3:37:23the world. And this is true
3:37:25me protecting my sister, you know? I'll
3:37:27also be the first if a friend is out of
3:37:29line to say something, but the people
3:37:30I'm referring to here, they show up with
3:37:32like all their goodness.
3:37:34Joe's the same way. And people talk
3:37:36about Joe, and I'm like, "Mm-mm." People
3:37:39have tried to get me to talk about
3:37:40him. Reporters have called me to try and
3:37:43set me up like a trap a snare trap to
3:37:46say things about him. No chance. He's
3:37:49done things
3:37:50that I've seen that had nothing to do
3:37:52with me in service to others that are
3:37:54completely quiet, that no one will ever
3:37:56hear about,
3:37:58that absolutely tell me that he is a
3:38:00huge-hearted person who cares about the
3:38:02world and takes care of people close to
3:38:04him and far away from him without the
3:38:06expectation of anything in return. And
3:38:08I'm not saying this so that he likes me
3:38:10more. I'm saying this cuz it's true. And
3:38:12I think that, you know,
3:38:16Martha Beck's another one or people that
3:38:18like
3:38:20they just want to give. And so when I
3:38:21see people attacking people and I can
3:38:23sense this about you, we're getting to
3:38:24know one another here.
3:38:26Like the fact that you're trying to
3:38:27attack someone whose
3:38:29fundamental goal is to try and serve the
3:38:31world, build things to serve. Like
3:38:33and there are a few things that get my
3:38:35adrenaline going like that, but that's
3:38:37not okay. It's not okay.
3:38:40And I think it's really important that
3:38:41we stand up for people who are not known
3:38:44either. We stand up for them and that we
3:38:46say that's not okay. You you can't take
3:38:48cheap shots like that.
3:38:50And so I think times are changing there.
3:38:52Times are changing, you know, the um
3:38:56I don't have anything against
3:38:57traditional media. I see the way they
3:38:58capitalize on things. They'll put
3:39:00different names and URLs and trying
3:39:02bring clicks and stuff. Look, they're
3:39:04just trying to make an income.
3:39:05Um and I think some of them presumably
3:39:08are good people just trying to do their
3:39:10thing. What I love about podcasters,
3:39:13what I love about the early, you know,
3:39:16the skateboarders I knew from the
3:39:17skateboard era, some of my still in
3:39:19touch with now,
3:39:20um punk rockers, the people in creative
3:39:24areas, artists and musicians and poets,
3:39:26it's like they didn't get into it
3:39:28because they thought people would like
3:39:29them or they'd make a lot of money.
3:39:31And a lot of times they take ridicule.
3:39:34They got into it because it's who they
3:39:36are. It's their essence. They're just
3:39:38being them.
3:39:39And I think we can really tell
3:39:41somebody's just being themselves. It's
3:39:42like their real essence just brought
3:39:44forward and they're taking
3:39:46fire and they're taking shrapnel and
3:39:48they're and they do it anyway. You know,
3:39:50I I'm I know he's very popular now,
3:39:53um even though he's dead, um but I've
3:39:56always loved Jean-Michel Basquiat's
3:39:58work. And if you watch that movie, I
3:40:00don't know if you've seen the movie
3:40:01Basquiat, not the the documentary, but
3:40:03amazing movie. It's got Dennis Hopper,
3:40:05uh Parker Posey, um David Bowie plays um
3:40:09Andy Warhol. It's an amazing cast,
3:40:11Willem Dafoe. It's just an amazing cast.
3:40:13And there's this incredible scene
3:40:15where Jean-Michel and Benicio Del Toro,
3:40:18who I believe was
3:40:20playing Jean-Michel's friend, who was
3:40:22Vincent Gallo. Jean-Michel says to him,
3:40:25he goes, "Hey Benny, how long do you
3:40:27think it takes to get famous?"
3:40:28And the answer that Benicio Del Toro
3:40:31gives him is amazing. He talks about how
3:40:34fame
3:40:36ultimately just brings a lot of attack.
3:40:38And how that can really collapse the
3:40:41artist. And it's it's a beautiful
3:40:432-minute riff on YouTube that everyone
3:40:44should go watch. And if anyone out there
3:40:46thinks they want to be famous, I'll tell
3:40:48you, you do not want to be famous.
3:40:50Famous takes away your freedom. People
3:40:52say they want to be famous. I you
3:40:53absolutely don't. What you want is you
3:40:55want a friend
3:40:57or friends that you love and that love
3:41:00you. You want to have enough resources
3:41:02plus a bit more so that you feel safe.
3:41:05Right? Anyone that says you only need
3:41:06$70,000 a year in order to be happy cuz
3:41:08some study said that,
3:41:10You need enough money so that
3:41:13you feel safe about your present and
3:41:15your future. That number differs for
3:41:17different people. Okay? So, that's a
3:41:19study. I don't care what the data say.
3:41:21Like look at the real world. And usually
3:41:24it's a rich person saying you only need
3:41:25that amount of money, by the way.
3:41:29You need some sense of passion or
3:41:31connection to the world.
3:41:33And
3:41:34you need a sense of freedom that you can
3:41:36be you.
3:41:37And that you won't get attacked for it.
3:41:40And we know this throughout history.
3:41:41This has been proven over and over
3:41:42again. So fame is Like fame
3:41:45takes away your freedom.
3:41:47The rest of it, social connection, some
3:41:50resources,
3:41:51a connection to some passionate
3:41:53exploration, curiosity, even if it's
3:41:55very private and no one ever sees it.
3:41:57Like those things are are really what
3:41:59make life rich. It really really
3:42:02does. And I have fantasies about just
3:42:04disappearing.
3:42:06Taking a small group off to some hidden
3:42:08village and we do our thing, but but I
3:42:09know myself too well. I'd want to
3:42:12um I'd want to connect with the world
3:42:14more. It's just in my nature to want to
3:42:15do that. So,
3:42:17I suppose I'm kind of hosed. And I
3:42:19suppose the world's kind of stuck with
3:42:20me until they aren't.
3:42:22But no, I I I have those fantasies as
3:42:24well and I I I arrive at the same
3:42:25conclusion that I'd eventually do
3:42:27something in the village which would
3:42:28bring me back to society and then bring
3:42:30me back to probably sitting in this
3:42:31chair. Well, and you know, I've thought
3:42:32about getting some people together and
3:42:34we should do this. We could get a
3:42:35property, put a bunch of houses, put a
3:42:36gym, a sauna, get up a podcast studio,
3:42:38but guess what? They'd call it a cult.
3:42:41They'd be like, they started a cult,
3:42:42right? They'd find something, be like,
3:42:44they started a cult. Because I think to
3:42:46people that are not passionate creators,
3:42:50and again, I'm not just talking about
3:42:51podcasters, but that aren't passionate
3:42:52creators,
3:42:54they don't understand. Like they don't
3:42:56understand that
3:42:58certain people just need to create.
3:43:00Yeah. And
3:43:02God bless them because we need somebody
3:43:04to write articles from a perspective
3:43:05that they don't understand to get other
3:43:07people to think things that aren't true.
3:43:09Because that's what they need to do.
3:43:10Like they serve an important role. Like
3:43:12in the aquarium of life, on the coral
3:43:14reef of life, you need the little like
3:43:16horseshoe crabs working there. When you
3:43:18say like, well, what's the purpose? It's
3:43:19part of an ecosystem. It's somehow
3:43:21indirectly serves the rest. Although
3:43:23sometimes it's kind of hard to tell. And
3:43:25as we head into this election, as as we
3:43:27head into like really uncertain times, I
3:43:29think we tend to go, "The media or the
3:43:31podcasters or the the" Look, everyone's
3:43:34doing the best they can with what
3:43:35they've got. Just some people are
3:43:37working a little bit harder to be kind
3:43:39and benevolent and giving
3:43:41and acknowledging we're all human.
3:43:43And others are like pointing fingers.
3:43:45So. Of all the protocols you've shared,
3:43:48it seems like maybe the most important
3:43:49is friendship.
3:43:51Send that morning text. Find somebody
3:43:53that you can communicate with
3:43:55that will communicate with you, that you
3:43:56trust. You don't have to share a ton. I
3:43:59don't want to give the impression that I
3:44:01sit there with my friends and like share
3:44:03all the inner workings of my mind and
3:44:05what's going on, you know? I mean,
3:44:06that's that's why I have this notebook.
3:44:07So I don't have to do that. It's like I
3:44:09got stuff in here I never want anyone to
3:44:11see.
3:44:12You know, but
3:44:14yeah, find a friend. Like friendship is
3:44:16huge. And and it's the start of all
3:44:19great things.
3:44:20Right? It it's the reflection of all
3:44:22great things inside of us.
3:44:24Right? It's
3:44:25not the complete picture. Romantic
3:44:27relationship for many, for most is
3:44:29really important. Get a dog, get a fish,
3:44:31get a plant, sure. But I think
3:44:32friendship really is like the most
3:44:34important thing that all of us can
3:44:36really focus on right now
3:44:38aside from
3:44:40partnership and children because of
3:44:42course children need us and
3:44:44they need our our attention and our
3:44:46support, but friendship is is super
3:44:48powerful.
3:44:50And rather than talk about the isolation
3:44:52crisis, the loneliness crisis, I'd
3:44:54rather talk about some solutions. And I
3:44:56think friendship,
3:44:57maybe even just a morning text back and
3:45:00forth. Good morning. Good morning. How'd
3:45:01you sleep? Pretty good. Not well. Okay.
3:45:04Bye.
3:45:06Next day, it's there. The being able to
3:45:08rely on that like clockwork, like the
3:45:10sun rising and setting each day, you can
3:45:12count on that.
3:45:14It's just brings a lot of peace. It'll
3:45:16make you a better version of yourself.
3:45:17Do your friends know what
3:45:20you mean to them?
3:45:21Having gone through those difficult
3:45:22moments, did did you were you were you
3:45:24able to articulate to them how much you
3:45:27appreciated them for that?
3:45:29Mm. I'll get emotional again. I I don't
3:45:32I don't think they could know.
3:45:34You know, it's it's like
3:45:36there's one friend in particular. Um
3:45:38there's a guy who's actually very
3:45:39prominent in the skateboarding
3:45:40community. He he's quiet in that
3:45:41community. I'll I'll say his name
3:45:43because he's so humble, you know. He'll
3:45:45never say it himself. His name is Jim
3:45:46Thiebaud. And when I was 14 years old,
3:45:49Jim,
3:45:51who now runs a big company called
3:45:52Deluxe, which is a bunch of companies
3:45:53and he he's kind of the the he's kind of
3:45:56the mayor of the whole sport. He's um
3:45:59back then, I remember I was 14. This was
3:46:02after I got out of this place.
3:46:05And um he rolled up to me in Embarcadero
3:46:08and he sat next to me. He just like sat
3:46:10next to me. Gave me a coffee
3:46:12and some stickers. And he was like,
3:46:15"What's up, man?" And he's probably
3:46:16about 10 years older than I am.
3:46:18And we started talking. And he gave me
3:46:21one of his books. Sorry, Jim. I'm going
3:46:23to embarrass him. He had these poetry
3:46:24books. Great book. I still have it. It's
3:46:26called Loose Change. And he had another
3:46:27one called Do the Distance.
3:46:29And he goes,
3:46:31"You should write."
3:46:33I'm like, "Okay." And I started writing.
3:46:34I started keeping a journal. And that
3:46:36one interaction carried me through so
3:46:38many hard times. Now, years later, I had
3:46:41a really hard circumstance. Things were
3:46:43going well in my life. I was making
3:46:44progress on a certain front that I'd
3:46:46been challenged with with for some time.
3:46:49And then one day just brack.
3:46:53Everything came crashing down.
3:46:56And like magic, Jim showed up. I'm not
3:47:00I'm not saying he got a call from the
3:47:02universe. Somebody called him and he
3:47:04showed up.
3:47:05And he just sat with me. Now, I'm an
3:47:07adult at this point.
3:47:08He just like sat with me.
3:47:11And um
3:47:14and I hear from him every morning, you
3:47:15know? And I still text him every
3:47:17morning. He texted me today. He's here
3:47:19in LA today. We won't see each other.
3:47:21So, he's busy. I'm busy. We got work.
3:47:24I would love to see him, but he's busy
3:47:25and I respect that he's busy and he
3:47:27respects that I'm busy.
3:47:29It's like, wow, you know, 14 and then 40
3:47:33some years and he's there again. And I
3:47:35like to think I've been there for him,
3:47:36too.
3:47:38You know? And
3:47:39you know,
3:47:40when I was that kid, at some point he
3:47:42knew, in some way he knew exactly what I
3:47:45needed. I needed those books. I needed
3:47:47something. And you know, even when I
3:47:48tell him now about that, he goes, "Oh,
3:47:50no, that poetry is so bad." You know,
3:47:51he's embarrassed about that. And I'm
3:47:52thinking, "No, man, you like saved my
3:47:54life with that stuff." And I kept them.
3:47:57I still have them. And so I think he
3:47:59must have like sensed that I was a
3:48:01really like feeling person and I was
3:48:04really in a trench. And we've seen a lot
3:48:07of our friends go dead or in jail and in
3:48:08trouble. We've seen a lot of people do
3:48:10extremely well. Jim's an amazing guy
3:48:12because he's the one who calls the
3:48:15decisions on a lot of things in the kind
3:48:17of social milieu of skateboarding. He's
3:48:19taken a lot of I don't want to get
3:48:20into the details, but he's helped evolve
3:48:22skateboarding in some ways that it was
3:48:23very resistant to evolving. You can
3:48:26largely credit the true diversity in
3:48:29that sport. You know, people talk about
3:48:31diversity, but look at that sport. Look
3:48:33at the number of different races. Look
3:48:35at the fact that you've got straight
3:48:37kids, gay kids, trans kids. You've got
3:48:40room for the kids who have parents and
3:48:42the parent involvement. You've got
3:48:44kids that don't have have any parents.
3:48:46You've got people trying to help each
3:48:47other get sober and stay sober. You've
3:48:49got people like
3:48:50Jim has taken so much
3:48:54publicly on the chin maintaining
3:48:58complete silence about his rationale
3:49:00except with one mission in mind, which
3:49:02is keep the sport going in the
3:49:04healthiest way possible that's most
3:49:05inclusive for the most number of people
3:49:07cuz he knows the importance of having a
3:49:09place where kids that don't fit in in
3:49:12other sports can come, but also the
3:49:13importance of having it be an Olympic
3:49:15sport, which skateboarders on, too.
3:49:18And so, this isn't about skateboarding.
3:49:20I want to make very clear.
3:49:21It's about Jim and the fact that he
3:49:24understands his sense of purpose, his
3:49:25sense of duty. He knew well enough that
3:49:27even though he was a professional
3:49:29skateboarder that he would better serve
3:49:30the community by doing something else,
3:49:32which is to be a leader. He leads
3:49:33quietly. Like I think about him all the
3:49:36time. So, do they know how much I
3:49:38appreciate them? There's no way. I could
3:49:40go on for hours about him, the things
3:49:42he's done for me. Anyone that knows that
3:49:44sport or knows Jim knows exactly what
3:49:46I'm talking about. He'll never have a
3:49:48podcast. He'll never go on a podcast.
3:49:50Maybe he'll
3:49:51bless us with coming on my podcast. But
3:49:53some people like him like I hope they
3:49:56but
3:49:58people like him in my life and I hope
3:50:00they know. But there's no card you can
3:50:02send that can capture all that. I think
3:50:05it's just like checking in on on him
3:50:07every morning and just, you know, giving
3:50:09him a big hug when I see him, you know,
3:50:12and um I saw a tweet recently. It was
3:50:13like normalizing or no, it was the dude
3:50:15with sign guy who was super funny. I
3:50:17think it said normalizing telling your
3:50:19friends you love them.
3:50:20I don't think that was for women.
3:50:21Hopefully they're doing that, too. I
3:50:23think it's for men. Like I'm not shy
3:50:25about that. I tell my friends, I love
3:50:27you. I've also
3:50:29had the experience of not doing that and
3:50:31then I never see that friend again. So,
3:50:34I'm not trying to be overly sentimental,
3:50:36right? It's really about just like
3:50:39like living your life with as much heart
3:50:42forward as is safe and appropriate,
3:50:45right? So, anyway, um that's one
3:50:48example. There's there's no way they
3:50:49could know. He just sat with me. I find
3:50:52those to be very interesting words
3:50:53because we think about the role of a
3:50:55friend in that situation of fixing
3:50:56things. Diving in there, figuring out
3:50:58the problem and presenting the solution,
3:51:00but you said he just sat with me.
3:51:02Oh, man. When Barbara Chapman, my
3:51:04graduate advisor, died, I was
3:51:06devastated. And she had two small girls
3:51:08and I knew her when she was pregnant
3:51:09with each one of them and I was close
3:51:10with her family and I went to the House
3:51:11of Flowers in San Francisco. And her
3:51:14daughters get up. Okay, one I think was
3:51:16probably about 12, the older one. The
3:51:17younger one,
3:51:18by the way, became a neuroscientist,
3:51:20that time was probably about nine. And
3:51:23these two girls that I've known since
3:51:24they were essentially in the womb are
3:51:26there talking about their dead mother.
3:51:29Now, I broke down. I during my eulogy,
3:51:31like I just lost it. I was crying in
3:51:33front of my colleagues.
3:51:35I was so embarrassed and at the same
3:51:36time like I just couldn't hold it back.
3:51:39These two young girls
3:51:42get up there to talk about their dead
3:51:44mom. And I'm thinking to myself, oh my
3:51:46god. Everyone's just bracing themselves.
3:51:49And they just said
3:51:51they're so strong. They said
3:51:53the best part about our mom is that she
3:51:56spent a lot of unstructured time with
3:51:59us.
3:52:00And that was it.
3:52:02And they sat down. And I remember
3:52:04thinking
3:52:05holy
3:52:07Like that was it. Of all the things they
3:52:09did, the baseball games they went to,
3:52:11the things they did. I'm sure they have
3:52:12so many memories. And the thing they
3:52:14remember as most important is the fact
3:52:15that their mom spent a lot of
3:52:17unstructured time with them. Just hung
3:52:19out with them.
3:52:20Mhm.
3:52:21Like just hung out with them. And I
3:52:23think at some level like yeah, we need
3:52:25people to show up when things are hard.
3:52:27We need people to support us, celebrate
3:52:29with us, but like
3:52:30some ways like a really good friend is
3:52:32just somebody who just kind of hangs out
3:52:33with us. Simon Sinek said that to me. He
3:52:35said what in those moments what you need
3:52:37is someone just to sit in the mud with
3:52:38you. You don't need them to do anything.
3:52:40They just need to be sat there in the
3:52:41mud with you.
3:52:42And that that in part is the medicinal
3:52:45effect, just knowing that there's
3:52:46someone else in the mud with you. Yeah.
3:52:48Um Yeah. You know, I I
3:52:51again, I don't want to focus on names
3:52:53people recognize because I don't want it
3:52:55to seem like it's unique to them, but I
3:52:58I mention names like specific names
3:53:00because they may resonate with your
3:53:01audience, you know. That's why I
3:53:02mentioned Rick or whatever or like a guy
3:53:04like Lane Norton I'm getting to know
3:53:06better. Like Lane on social media is a
3:53:08pretty, you know, serrated edge guy,
3:53:11right? But he's he's a sweetheart. He's
3:53:14a kind person and he's got a
3:53:16ferociousness to him, you know, which is
3:53:18something I can relate to. He, you know,
3:53:20and um
3:53:21and I see his loyalty to his kids and I
3:53:24see, you know, how he like his
3:53:25fingernails will be painted and people
3:53:27will tease him and but he does it cuz
3:53:29his daughter loves it and he also is the
3:53:30guy that's going to deadlift twice as
3:53:32much as anyone else. And he's and he's
3:53:33got this forward center of mass on
3:53:35things. And then I also just see like
3:53:37he's just such a loving person. He loves
3:53:39what he does. And and I hope people will
3:53:41start to look at people's personas,
3:53:44certainly online, but in real life and
3:53:46just start to like take them in a little
3:53:49bit. Like what are they trying to tell
3:53:50you when they're
3:53:52being a little bit annoying? Or what are
3:53:53they trying to tell you when they're
3:53:55frustrated by politics? Like like
3:53:57looking a layer deeper and trying to
3:53:59like see the person and feel the person
3:54:01as as an experience of them as like
3:54:03another way I think to be a really good
3:54:05friend. Because when people say like, I
3:54:06see you, I don't think they're like I
3:54:08see you. Like you need to do some eye
3:54:10gazing or something. I think what it is,
3:54:12I mean eye contact's important, of
3:54:13course, but I don't think it's
3:54:15it's related to like taking them in
3:54:17visually as much as just like really
3:54:19appreciating that
3:54:21they have all these different sides, all
3:54:22these different facets. You know,
3:54:24earlier you were talking about your
3:54:25relationship. I mean, what you described
3:54:27to me is like real intimacy.
3:54:29Like sure, things proceed along great.
3:54:31Then there's this challenge. It's a big
3:54:33one. There's some shame associated with
3:54:34it. There's confusion. And then people
3:54:36go into their different domains, do
3:54:37their work, come together and like share
3:54:41and then grow. I mean, that's intimacy.
3:54:43It takes risk. It takes a certain amount
3:54:46of healthy risk and um I think we can do
3:54:48this in all relationships. And um you
3:54:50know, I'm no psychologist and I'm still
3:54:52learning. And Lord knows I have a lot of
3:54:54work to do, but um I'll be damned if I'm
3:54:56going to quit. I'm going to keep trying.
3:54:58Andrew, we have a closing tradition on
3:55:00this podcast where the last guest leaves
3:55:01a question for the next guest not
3:55:02knowing who they're going to be leaving
3:55:03it for.
3:55:05And the question left here for you is
3:55:09what is the true meaning of your life?
3:55:14Why do you exist?
3:55:18Mhm.
3:55:19Goodness, that's a tough one. Meaning,
3:55:22it's hard to distill that down.
3:55:26But I'll pause for a second in an effort
3:55:28to keep it uncharacteristically brief.
3:55:36You know, as I mentioned earlier, all I
3:55:38have is my experience the knowledge that
3:55:42I gained from that experience and my
3:55:44words.
3:55:46And
3:55:49for me, the purpose of my life is to
3:55:53make the best possible choices that I'm
3:55:54capable of making at the time in terms
3:55:56of
3:55:57what to seek out what to learn
3:56:01and what to share. And I think the real
3:56:04meaning of my life is to try and provide
3:56:07useful information and tools so that
3:56:08people can be
3:56:10a better version of themselves for
3:56:12themselves and other people. And I know
3:56:14it sounds lofty and kind of empty and
3:56:16cliché on the one hand, but I mean it. I
3:56:18wake up in the morning and I think, what
3:56:21can I learn? What am I excited to learn?
3:56:24And then when I come across gems I just
3:56:27compulsively have to tell people about
3:56:28it. But not because
3:56:31I need to do it for me. It's because I
3:56:33feel like people need to know about
3:56:36this. This can really help. This can
3:56:38really help. This can potentially really
3:56:39really really really help.
3:56:41So, I think that's the meaning of life
3:56:43for me. Right now? Right now.
3:56:46And um at some point it may be
3:56:48just to provide care for
3:56:51little
3:56:53Hubermans.
3:56:55Um at some point it may be something
3:56:58entirely different. I've learned to not
3:57:00anticipate what the next steps will be
3:57:02for me um more than five years out.
3:57:06You know, I've seen some ridiculous
3:57:07speculation that I'm going to go into
3:57:09politics, probably related to the fact
3:57:11that I kind of alluded to it once or
3:57:12twice.
3:57:14I'm not going into politics. I'll tell
3:57:16you right now. There's no chance I'm
3:57:18going into politics.
3:57:20It runs countercurrent to my nature.
3:57:23And even if politics changed entirely
3:57:27it's not for me.
3:57:28Um what is for me is
3:57:31learning and adventure and sharing what
3:57:34I learn.
3:57:35And
3:57:36that's the only way I know how to be.
3:57:42Andrew, thank you. I didn't know you
3:57:44before today. I obviously knew of you
3:57:45because everyone knows you on on the
3:57:47internet for all the work that you've
3:57:48done and all the things that you've
3:57:49shared, but I didn't know the man and
3:57:52the hours we've spent together today
3:57:53have really illuminated the man that you
3:57:55are. And it's really most importantly
3:57:57illuminated your intentions, which are
3:57:58so incredibly pure and wonderful. And
3:58:02it's because of you that much of my
3:58:04podcast exists because I learn from your
3:58:06show. It inspires me and that calls me
3:58:09to bring guests on often times guests
3:58:11that you've had on your show that have
3:58:12changed my life in some way. So you've
3:58:14been a tremendous driver of both my
3:58:16development as an individual but also of
3:58:18this show inadvertently. And also that's
3:58:20the case with all of my team because the
3:58:2130 40 people that work with me here,
3:58:23they're all massive fans of yours but
3:58:24most importantly they've had their lives
3:58:26improved because you exist and because
3:58:28you've taken very complex things and
3:58:30distilled them down and shared them with
3:58:32all of us in a way that we wouldn't
3:58:33usually have access to. So that's such a
3:58:36tremendous gift that you've given and
3:58:37continue to give. So thank you on behalf
3:58:39of myself and all of my team and
3:58:40everybody else that was so excited all
3:58:42my friends that were so excited that I'd
3:58:43be speaking to you today.
3:58:45I'm tremendously excited about your
3:58:47book. I hear that there's a book coming
3:58:48out called Protocols
3:58:50an operation an operating manual for the
3:58:52human body
3:58:53which comes out next year in the 22nd of
3:58:55April 2025. If there was ever a book I
3:58:57don't get excited by many books but
3:59:00having been such a fan of your work it
3:59:01is a book that I'm
3:59:03I consider to be essential. We were
3:59:04talking about it yesterday. We see it as
3:59:06it was almost like waiting for the like
3:59:07the Bible on this subject matter matter.
3:59:09So I I'm going to link it below because
3:59:12I know it's currently available for
3:59:13pre-order or pre-sale and I highly
3:59:15recommend if people find what you do to
3:59:17be of any value then this is the book to
3:59:19read. Um I've been doing everything I
3:59:21can to just get snippets of it from
3:59:23people around you and the excitement and
3:59:25anticipation is palpable. So thank you
3:59:27for taking the time to write that book
3:59:28cuz you don't have to. You've got a big
3:59:30enough audience as it is. You don't have
3:59:31to sit down and really distill it down
3:59:32for people. Um and more than anything
3:59:34just thank you. I really really
3:59:35appreciate that you what you do and that
3:59:37the fact that you exist and all that
3:59:39you've done for me and and all my my
3:59:41friends and people that matter to me. So
3:59:42thank you on behalf of all of us. And I
3:59:44really really mean that from the bottom
3:59:45of my heart. So thank you. Thank you.
3:59:47I'll take that in and um I'm very
3:59:49grateful for the opportunity to sit down
3:59:51with you today. I'm a huge fan and an
3:59:52admirer of what you've done and what
3:59:54you're doing
3:59:55and uh right back at you in the sense
3:59:58that
3:59:59you have many many areas of success. You
4:00:01don't need to do a podcast um but the
4:00:04fact that you do bring so much benefit
4:00:05to the world. It's been just
4:00:08marvelous to see your ascent which is
4:00:10just like pointed at the sun. You just
4:00:12you guys are are doing such incredible
4:00:14work and continue to. And um you know I
4:00:17have to say I came here today expecting
4:00:19we were going to get into some science
4:00:21into some protocols and I knew we were
4:00:22going to cover a lot of areas um but I
4:00:25didn't anticipate uh the depth of the
4:00:28conversation that we were going to have
4:00:30and I can say it's entirely the
4:00:32consequence of of your realness and and
4:00:36the uh
4:00:37the you know the the genuine compassion
4:00:38that you bring to these kinds of
4:00:39conversations. That's felt. I also
4:00:41really appreciate the way you shared
4:00:43some of your own experience. I can tell
4:00:44you're somebody who really cares about
4:00:46people
4:00:47and that your success is you know in no
4:00:50small part the consequence of that. So
4:00:53thank you for having me here and to your
4:00:54team for having me here
4:00:56and um
4:00:57and for for doing what you do. It's
4:00:59clear you're all in in every endeavor
4:01:02and your nature is is an incredible one.
4:01:05The fact that you can take on so many
4:01:07things and that you've embraced your
4:01:08nature to not want to go the traditional
4:01:12path. I think that's an incredible and
4:01:13incredibly important example for people.
4:01:16So
4:01:17I can also say that I think that we're
4:01:19going to be friends. So you should pass
4:01:20me your number and we'll we'll check in
4:01:21in the morning and we should grab a meal
4:01:23or a workout or whatever. Maybe we just
4:01:25hang out. So I I'd like to think that
4:01:28we've sparked a friendship. We certainly
4:01:30have. Thank you Andrew. Thank you.

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