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Andrew Huberman: The Real Reason You Can't Get Deep Sleep & Wake Up Exhausted — Transcript

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0:00Here's the diabolical thing. The risk of
0:01dying early if you have bright nights
0:04goes up immensely. There've been a lot
0:06of studies done people after 6:00 p.m.
0:08on devices getting artificial LED
0:10exposure. They live shorter lives,
0:12cancer rates go up, [music] they're
0:13metabolically unhealthy. But here's the
0:15really scary thing. We have a generation
0:17of kids that are metabolically sick.
0:19[music] They cling to their iPads,
0:21they're on devices. But the problem is
0:22the most things are designed to make
0:24people do [music] less of what's good
0:25for them. And we don't talk about this
0:27enough.
0:28>> And Andrew, you're one of the most
0:29trusted voices in health today. And
0:31we've waited many, many years for this.
0:33Protocols, an operating manual for the
0:35human body.
0:36>> Yeah. These 10 protocols are well
0:37established. They're the ones that are
0:39going to move the needle the most in
0:40terms of one's mental health, physical
0:42health, and performance.
0:44>> Okay, so let's get into it.
0:45>> So protocol number one, you want to
0:46[music] get sunlight. Cuz exposure each
0:48day to the skin increases testosterone
0:50and estrogen in both women and men and
0:52is important for libido. [music] And
0:53then the second, and this is really key,
0:55is to reduce stress fast. I'll explain
0:57how to do that in a moment. And then
0:58number three, working out with weights
0:59for 45 minutes, taking your sets near to
1:01failure. It will triple or quadruple
1:03your cortisol levels. But a lot of
1:04people have been told don't spike your
1:06cortisol, it's the stress hormone. But
1:07it's a preparation hormone. You're
1:09preparing for adversity, but also great
1:11things. The next thing, and this is one
1:12of the most valuable skills if you do it
1:14for 5 minutes per day, you will
1:15experience a significant improvement in
1:17mental and physical health. And then
1:19sleeping on your side, very important
1:21for [music] offsetting dementia, getting
1:22rid of bags under your eyes. But Steven,
1:24the number one thing that you need to
1:26know about is the moment I started my
1:28life got so much better.
1:29>> [music]
1:30>> And I really started to see what I could
1:31only describe as miracles.
1:33>> Andrew, I have this outstanding question
1:34that I have to ask you. You don't really
1:36talk in depth about supplements.
1:37>> I Oh, I do. I go ham.
1:39>> So if you can only do five for the rest
1:40of your [music] life.
1:40>> Oh gosh. I highly recommend getting a
1:47>> This is super interesting to me. My team
1:49gave me this report to show me how many
1:50of you that watch this show subscribe.
1:52And some of you have told us, according
1:53to this, that you are unsubscribed from
1:55the channel randomly. So favor to ask
1:57all of you, please could you check right
1:59now if you've hit the subscribe button.
2:00If you are a regular viewer of the show
2:02and you like what we do here, we're
2:03approaching quite a significant landmark
2:05on this show in terms of a subscriber
2:06number. So, if there was one simple free
2:09thing that you could do to help us, my
2:10team, everyone here to keep this show
2:12free, to keep it improving year over
2:15year and week over week, it is just to
2:16hit that subscribe button and to
2:17double-check if you've hit it. Only
2:19thing I'll ever ask of you.
2:20Do we have a deal?
2:21If you do it, I'll tell you what I'll
2:22do. I'll make sure
2:24every single week, every single month we
2:26fight harder and harder and harder and
2:27harder to bring you the guests and
2:28conversations that you want to hear.
2:30I've stayed true to that promise since
2:31the very beginning of the Diary of a
2:32CEO, and I will not let you down. Please
2:35help us. Really appreciate it. Let's get
2:37on with the show.
2:39>> [music]
2:41>> Andrew Huberman, um we've waited many,
2:44many years for this.
2:46And now it has arrived. This is your
2:49long-awaited book called Protocols, an
2:50operating manual for the human body. And
2:52inside this book, I counted roughly 50
2:56different protocols split across seven
2:58different areas.
3:00Um sleep, exercise, stress control,
3:02nutrition, light, focus, motivation, and
3:03learning, and personal growth. You've
3:06written 10 of the protocols you want to
3:08focus on sharing today. Can I ask, why
3:09did you choose those 10?
3:12>> They're the ones that are going to move
3:13the needle the most in terms of one's
3:15mental health, physical health,
3:18and {quote} {unquote} performance. Your
3:20life will be so much better if you do
3:21them.
3:22>> And do they cost a lot of money to do
3:23the 10 that you've picked?
3:25>> No. They could be done either at
3:26completely zero cost or on an existing
3:29budget.
3:29>> And do you do these 10 things?
3:31>> Every day.
3:32>> Every day.
3:32>> There's one on there that I don't do
3:34every single day. I take off one day per
3:36week. But every single day without fail.
3:38>> And when you wrote them, did you write
3:40them in order of sequencing?
3:41>> Yeah, throughout the day. From From
3:43start to finish throughout the Because
3:44this is the other thing. Protocols
3:46synergize. They ratchet together. How
3:49well you slept last night is dictating
3:50how well you feel now.
3:52These are gears in a larger system. One
3:54moves
3:56the other ones move. And while there is
3:57a place for pharmacology and supplements
3:59and things that you take,
4:01ultimately these gears fit together
4:03based on what you do.
4:04>> Okay, so let's get into it. What was the
4:05first thing that you drew? Cuz I saw
4:07there was a picture there.
4:08>> Okay. So, in my
4:09un-elegant drawing, but I I am a you
4:12know, biologist, so we're allowed to do
4:13this. I mean, this is essentially a plot
4:15of where you wake up in the morning and
4:17then where you go to sleep at night. You
4:18know, and these are not hours of the
4:19day.
4:20These are the different protocols. 1 2 3
4:224 5 6 7 8 9 10. Okay? So,
4:25um
4:26this line
4:28represents the healthy cortisol curve.
4:30Most people don't realize that, but you
4:31wake up because of a rise in cortisol.
4:33It's literally called the cortisol
4:34awakening response.
4:36If you've ever woken up 1 minute before
4:37your alarm clock, it's because the
4:39cortisol awakening response is heavily
4:41entrainable, meaning it can be matched
4:43to external stimuli.
4:45You want this peak in cortisol as high
4:47as possible in the first 60 minutes of
4:49your day.
4:51Everyone thinks you want low cortisol,
4:53but here's the deal. High cortisol in
4:55the early part of your day is what
4:56provides for elevated mood, focus,
4:59attention, your ability to learn. It's
5:01also what establishes low cortisol in
5:04the afternoon and at night, which is a
5:05requirement for falling and staying
5:08asleep.
5:09So, this peak sets up this trough.
5:13So, you want high morning cortisol,
5:15low
5:16nighttime cortisol. These represent
5:19melatonin, the hormone of sleepiness, as
5:21we know. If you slept the night before,
5:23then melatonin essentially is low at
5:24morning. And the dash line is adenosine,
5:27which is a downstream product of of the
5:29use of ATP in your cells. The more
5:31you're awake, the more activities you
5:32do, the more you think, adenosine builds
5:34up. That's why you get sleepy.
5:35>> Mhm.
5:36>> [clears throat]
5:36>> So, what's very interesting is that when
5:38you spike your morning cortisol, and
5:40I'll explain how to do that in a moment,
5:42and you do that within the first hours
5:43of your day,
5:45you also establish a case where these
5:46little blips are stress. Stressful text,
5:49stressful event, but they're brief. We
5:51always hear that cortisol is bad, but
5:53our ability to have big inflections in
5:55cortisol, stress out, and then they come
5:56back down to normal is very, very good.
6:00If this peak was high. If this peak is
6:03not as high and this is kind of a like a
6:04medium or or flat, what they call a
6:06flattening of the cortisol curve, you
6:08see shorter lifespan, less recovery from
6:12every kind of illness and and these
6:13stress belts last a very long time
6:15because they're riding on a higher
6:17baseline.
6:18>> So, if your morning cortisol level is
6:19lower or flat,
6:21>> Right.
6:21>> then if I get that stressful text during
6:24the day, it will be a longer cortisol
6:27spike, more stress.
6:28>> Bigger and longer.
6:29>> Oh, wow.
6:30>> And not only that, but there's an
6:32indirect, but very important interaction
6:34between cortisol and melatonin. Your
6:35sleepiness hormone doesn't come on and
6:37function as well, and so sleep gets very
6:39disrupted. So, a lot of people think,
6:42"Oh, I don't want my morning cortisol
6:43high." And a lot of women in particular
6:44been told, "Don't spike your cortisol,
6:46it's going to lead to excess visceral
6:47fat, moon face, etc." There's this a
6:50condition called Cushing's syndrome,
6:51which is a massive overproduction of
6:52cortisol.
6:54Very rare condition. I mean, it happens,
6:55but most people are not dealing with
6:57that, right? Most people's morning
6:59cortisol is too low and their afternoon
7:01and nighttime cortisol is too high.
7:02>> How do they know this stuff? Like, how
7:04do they test this?
7:05>> This healthy curve, as it's called, was
7:07measured through just consistent blood
7:09draws around the 24-hour cycle, and then
7:11it's been looked at in response to
7:12everything from caffeine to cold
7:14plunges, to exercise, to sunlight. And
7:17there's this very So, protocol number
7:19one
7:19is hydrate.
7:21>> Okay.
7:21>> Your mind is exceedingly more sharp when
7:24you're well hydrated, and it actually
7:26helps boost your morning cortisol.
7:28There's a very interesting interaction
7:29between when the bladder being emptied
7:32as usually after people wake up, they
7:33use the the restroom, they urinate, and
7:35then hydrating. And there's an I'll talk
7:37about this a few times, but there's an
7:38ascending pathway along the vagus nerve
7:41that serves to wake up the brain and
7:43part of that has to do with hydration
7:45first thing in the morning. You awake
7:47from bed through urinate in the middle
7:48of the night because of an arousal
7:50phenomenon of hydration in the bladder
7:51being full. When you say hydrate, do you
7:53mean electrolytes or just water?
7:55>> 16 to 32 oz of good clean water is fine.
7:58If you want to add electrolytes, great.
7:59>> How much is that? Is that a cup or is
8:01that
8:01>> Um, this is 16 oz, maybe 18 oz.
8:04>> Okay, so like a big a big mug.
8:05>> You want to consume about 80 oz of water
8:08throughout your day. It's a lot, but you
8:09don't want to Basically, everything you
8:11want to do in the early part of the day
8:12you want to do less in the evening part
8:14of your day.
8:15The next thing and this is really key.
8:16It could have gone first, but you want
8:18to view sunlight or a 10,000 lux
8:20artificial light.
8:21I could spend 3 hours talking about
8:23this, but I'll keep it really brief.
8:25When you view sunlight, there's this
8:26beautiful phenomenon that activates
8:28these melanopsin intrinsically
8:30photosensitive ganglion cells, you know,
8:32the major focus of my work for many,
8:34many years, so I'll resist saying more.
8:36They literally extend physical wires
8:38that we call axons into your
8:39hypothalamus. Your master circadian
8:41clock resides there. We call that your
8:43superchiasmatic nucleus.
8:45And when you view low solar angle
8:47sunlight, sun low in the sky, there is
8:49an abundance of yes UV, but it's lower
8:52when it's low in the sky. You actually
8:53can look at the morning sun more easily
8:55than you can the overhead sun. Why? The
8:57morning sun looks more yellow, orange,
8:58or even some red tones
9:00>> Mhm.
9:00>> compared to the overhead sky. Well, the
9:02light coming from the sky is the same,
9:03right? But the specific wavelengths of
9:07light as we call them that are coming
9:08from the sun when it's low in the sky
9:10are the optimal stimulus for these
9:12melanopsin intrinsically photosensitive
9:14cells that tell your central clock it's
9:16time to wake up. The day is beginning.
9:18Okay.
9:20There's also something incredible that
9:21happens if you get bright light in your
9:22eyes in that first, ideally, 30 minutes,
9:25but even 60 minutes of your day. Which
9:27There are two pathways by which your
9:29brain's circadian clock wakes you up.
9:32One is it sends signals
9:34through peptides that releases and
9:35neural signals, but it's able to
9:37activate what we call the HPA axis,
9:39hypothalamus, pituitary gland, which is
9:41sort of hangs outside the brain, and
9:43then adrenals. You release adrenaline.
9:46There's a unique window that passes
9:48after about an hour
9:49following waking, where your
9:51suprachiasmatic clock can trigger an
9:53alternate pathway that literally goes
9:55down your spinal column and triggers
9:58your adrenals to release additional
10:00cortisol. In fact, viewing sunlight in
10:02the first hour of your day takes this
10:04peak. Here's what it would look like if
10:06you didn't view bright light in the
10:07first hour of your day.
10:09It would be here,
10:11which is bad, and your stress responses
10:13then would be bigger and longer.
10:16This
10:17increase in cortisol is driven by
10:19viewing sunlight.
10:20Now, when I say sunlight, people say,
10:22especially in the UK, they'll say,
10:23"There's no sun where I live." Okay,
10:25this could easily see it say daylight.
10:28Why?
10:29Because there's always daylight out.
10:32If you look at how bright it is on an
10:33overcast day in the middle of December,
10:36even in the UK, at 8:00 a.m. versus
10:39midnight the night before,
10:41it's different.
10:42You know, it's obvious when there's
10:43overcast skies, less of the
10:45long-wavelength lights, the oranges and
10:47reds are coming through.
10:48But,
10:49you want daylight in your eyes in the
10:50first hours of your day. Go out on your
10:52balcony if that's all you can do. If
10:54you're in a car, roll down the window.
10:55It's not good to try and do this through
10:57a window or windshield.
10:59There's so much data showing that
11:00spiking your morning cortisol this way
11:03establishes low cortisol and high
11:05sleepiness hormones, let's call them, at
11:07night, which is great, buffers stress,
11:10and moreover, kick-starts your immune
11:12system to protect you against bacteria
11:14and viruses you can encounter during the
11:15day.
11:16It is great for your metabolism, mood,
11:18ability to learn, and on and on. And in
11:20the book, I explain a number of
11:21different ways how this peak relates to
11:23this trough, if people are interested,
11:24but
11:25if you don't have access to sunlight or
11:27daylight,
11:29having it using a 10,000 lux artificial
11:31light can be very beneficial. These
11:3310,000 lux lights have been shown to
11:35significantly
11:37offset the symptoms of seasonal
11:39affective disorder, etc.
11:41But what we're finding from this huge
11:42study from the UK Biobank is that you
11:45want bright days and you want dark
11:47nights. And they're additive. So having
11:49bright days is great for your mental
11:51health and physical health along a huge
11:53number of parameters. Significantly
11:55improves them.
11:56But having dark even if you were in dim
11:58light all day, making it dark at night,
12:01people are healthier. The risk of dying
12:03early if you have bright nights goes up
12:05immensely. And we don't talk about this
12:07enough. If you don't have access to
12:09enough daylight, like you wake up before
12:11the sun comes out and you're up for 2
12:12hours, let's say before the sun comes
12:13out, I highly recommend getting a 10,000
12:16lux artificial light.
12:17>> And when we last time we spoke you took
12:18me outside after the conversation and
12:19you had an app on your phone.
12:21>> Right. Light meter. Now I have no
12:23relationship to the app, but I use it.
12:24>> And that is able to tell you how much
12:26lux of light you're getting at the
12:27moment.
12:28>> But it's additive. So one thing that's
12:29important to note is let's say you miss
12:30a day, right? The next day get outside
12:33for twice as long. How long should you
12:35do it on a very clear morning with the
12:36sun rising? And by the way, you don't
12:38need to see the sun cross the horizon.
12:40You can just wait till it's elevated,
12:42but it's low in the sky. People who are
12:44are concerned about UV damage should
12:46know that when the sun is low in the
12:48sky, the UV index is much lower. And
12:50there's a reason for that. It's a
12:52phenomenon called Rayleigh scattering.
12:54Sunrises and sunsets are very beautiful
12:56and colorful. When the sun's overhead,
12:57it's hard to look at. It's this big ball
12:58of light. It's so bright because you're
13:00getting all the wavelengths, the UV all
13:02the way out to the infrared coming at
13:04you in more or less equal
13:06intensities. When the sun is low in the
13:08sky, the UV is it's not completely
13:11scattered, but not as much of that is is
13:13reaching your eyes. Much lower risk of
13:15sunburn, much lower risk of eye damage,
13:17and so on. So here's the diabolical
13:19thing. Your screens
13:21are not nearly bright enough to
13:23kickstart this increase in cortisol in
13:25the morning, but they are very capable
13:28of increasing your cortisol levels at
13:30night because that this low level of
13:32cortisol makes you vulnerable to big
13:35increases in cortisol. It's a little bit
13:36of a detail that I explained in the
13:38book, but
13:39>> I was going to say on this point, is it
13:40just exposing my eyes to the light or
13:42does my body needs to be exposed to it?
13:44>> Great point. And one of the protocols in
13:46there, it's not one of the 10 I listed,
13:47is about the importance of getting
13:48sunlight on as much of your skin as
13:50possible as is socially appropriate. Uh
13:53beautiful work from Glenn Jeffries lab
13:55at University College London. You know,
13:56I can believe this. They do a glucose
13:57tolerance test. So, they fast people,
13:59they have them drink a glucose drink,
14:00they measure how fast a blood sugar
14:02rises.
14:03And
14:04if they shine red light so long
14:06wavelength is red is long wavelength
14:08light.
14:09>> Like that like that.
14:10>> Yeah, like this would be medium
14:11wavelength cuz it's yellow. A red would
14:13be um so, this is probably I'm guessing
14:15somewhere between 500 and 600 nanometers
14:18of light and red would be probably
14:20somewhere between 580 and 700 and then
14:23infrared goes out further, you know,
14:25into the 800s and thousands. The sun
14:27emits all of those.
14:28>> Okay, so this is long wavelength light.
14:30>> Okay.
14:31>> So, they shine a long wavelength light
14:33on people's backs and they do the
14:34glucose tolerance test and and they
14:35observe a more than 25% reduction in the
14:40peak and they also look at the rate of
14:42rise of blood glucose. It's buffering
14:43blood glucose rise, which we know is a
14:45good thing.
14:46>> Just to summarize, they shine red light
14:48on someone's back while they have a
14:49glucose shot and their glucose spike is
14:51lower.
14:51>> That's right. And you can do this onto
14:53bare skin or you can do it through a
14:54t-shirt. Turns out that these people's
14:56metabolism rose significantly.
14:58Why? How? Well, long wavelength light
15:02can actually go into and through your
15:04body.
15:06It can it gets absorbed and it can go
15:07about 8 cm into the body, red light.
15:10Long wavelength light of infrared can
15:12pass all the way through the body. They
15:13show that beautifully in this study.
15:15So, that's not good. No, it's fantastic
15:17because along the way
15:19it
15:20makes conformational changes in the way
15:22that your mitochondria handle the
15:24electrons, basically. This
15:26long-wavelength infrared light that
15:28comes from the sun, it's the heat that
15:29you feel from the sun or from a
15:30long-wavelength light device,
15:32allows
15:34This is so amazing. It actually allows
15:36your mitochondria to to function more
15:39effectively, more efficiently. Now, it's
15:41not to say that short-wavelength light,
15:42blues and greens and ultraviolet light
15:45are bad. We need ultraviolet light. We
15:47need it on our skin to make vitamin D.
15:49What you want is full-spectrum balanced
15:51light, but not so much UV that you get a
15:54sunburn. And you don't want a lot of
15:55short-wavelength light in the absence of
15:57long-wavelength light. Best way to do
15:59that, sunlight in the early and later
16:01part of the day, cuz the UV index is
16:03low, you're getting the full spectrum.
16:05Indoor LED lights like this, which we
16:07all spend a lot of time under, there's
16:09now evidence from from Glenn Jeffrey's
16:11lab and others that it actually may
16:12damage the mitochondria.
16:14We talked about melatonin coming from
16:16coming from the pineal gland that makes
16:17you sleepy at night. You also have
16:19melatonin in most all of the cells of
16:21your body, and there it doesn't make you
16:22sleepy, it serves as an antioxidant. But
16:25it's sort of captured, and the way to
16:27liberate it
16:28is through long-wavelength light. So,
16:30you have a protective mechanism that's
16:31kicked on with long-wavelength light
16:33that protects you protects you against
16:35the oxidative stress and damage to
16:37cells.
16:38And
16:39this has many, many positive effects.
16:41So, Glenn's lab has done experiments
16:42where they literally take out a light
16:43like this, and they have people look at
16:45it like this for 1 to 3 minutes a couple
16:48times a week.
16:49They look at people different ages,
16:51different eye conditions. He's a serious
16:52vision scientist, right? He's not He's
16:54not a biohacker, he's not he's has no
16:56interest in commercial products,
16:57actually.
16:59Although sometimes I wish he did.
17:01People over 40 who experience
17:03age-related vision loss, we all do a
17:04little bit,
17:06experience improvements in vision when
17:08they do this simple thing. And why would
17:10that be? Well, it turns out that your
17:11photoreceptors, which absorb light and
17:13convert it into electrical signals that
17:15allow you to see, are the most
17:17mitochondrial rich and metabolically
17:19active cells in your entire body. Now,
17:21biologists love to play this game where
17:23they go, "Your tongue is the most
17:25metabolically active." Then they go,
17:26"No, your Everyone makes a claim on
17:28this." The photoreceptors, my friends,
17:31are the most metabolically active cells
17:32in your entire body. So, they have a ton
17:34of mitochondria, and they need to
17:36protect themselves against the oxidative
17:38damage that comes with generating a
17:39bunch of downstream products from ATP.
17:43So, long-wavelength light is what
17:44protects us in this. So, you can see
17:46significant improvements in vision for
17:48people that view long-wavelength light a
17:50couple times a week, but only in people
17:52older than 40. And get this, only in
17:54people that do that
17:56in the first 3 hours of their day. What?
17:58Yes. Your eyes and your body and brain
18:01are not the same at this first third of
18:04your day versus this middle third of
18:05your day versus the last third of your
18:07day and at night. They're not. Your
18:10sensitivity to bright light causing bad
18:12effects on you after sundown
18:15increases. Not immediately, but it
18:17increases gradually. Your need for
18:19bright light in your eyes in the early
18:21part of the of the day is
18:24immense. You need this. You you want
18:26this. And if you miss a day, get out the
18:28next day and view some more light. You
18:29asked, "Will light to other parts of the
18:31body work?" Not for setting this system
18:33in motion, but it's a great idea to get
18:35out two to three times per week when the
18:37UV index is low. You can just look on
18:39your phone, "What's the UV index?" And
18:41it In general, it'll be the earlier that
18:42or the later half of your day when the
18:44UV index is lower.
18:46And to get out and get some light onto
18:47your skin. You don't have to be naked or
18:48in a swimsuit. Great if you are and
18:51that's appropriate, but you can also
18:52just wear a t-shirt because the
18:53long-wavelength light will go all the
18:55way through. So, Glenn Jeffery and
18:56Robert uh Roger Swartz, he's a physician
18:59who talks about the immense benefits of
19:01getting sunlight onto the skin for
19:05getting over disease, for for enhancing
19:07immune system function, and on and on.
19:09Can you Cuz there's going to be little
19:11lot of people right now that are going
19:12to go buy a red light lamp?
19:13>> Not necessary.
19:14>> Not necessary?
19:15>> No, sunlight. Pink Floyd, Pink Floyd
19:17album. Pass sunlight through a prism, it
19:21bends the light and you see the rainbow.
19:23>> Red, orange, yellow, green, blue,
19:24indigo, violet.
19:25>> But also in that sunlight is ultraviolet
19:27light. Some UV B exposure each day to
19:30the skin increases testosterone and
19:32estrogen in both women and men
19:34and is important for libido. It actually
19:36reinforces romantic relationships for
19:38reasons other than uh sexual
19:40interactions, um attractiveness, etc.
19:43Strong effects. So, sunlight has it all.
19:46What you don't want is to go outside
19:47when there's so much UV that you get a
19:48sunburn.
19:50And you don't want to
19:52think that, you know, red light's the
19:53only light you need. You want that
19:55warmth from from the sun. And it gets
19:56better because And notice I'm I'm sort
19:58of like it gets better like a salesman.
20:00I'm selling nature.
20:01Okay, I'm telling you when you go
20:02outside and there's a lot of greenery,
20:05greenery reflects
20:07long wavelength red and infrared light.
20:10Throw on some infrared goggles and
20:11you're not going to do this, but you
20:12look and they all that stuff would be
20:13glowing white
20:15in those goggles.
20:17Greenery reflects down infrared light.
20:20How do you know it reflects light? I'm
20:21stealing Rod Roger's words as I say
20:23this, but where's the coolest place to
20:25be on a hot day? Under a tree. Why is
20:27that? Because it's reflecting the heat,
20:29the infrared light. But when you're out
20:31in greenery, you're getting all that
20:33long wavelength light and it bounces
20:34around and it goes through you. So, get
20:36out into nature. Walk outside. If you
20:38work in a work and live in a city, get
20:40outside. Take off a brimmed hat because
20:42you do want the the sun getting down
20:43onto your onto your face. People are so
20:46terrified about accelerating aging based
20:48on UV, but we're not talking about
20:49baking yourself in UV light all day.
20:52The the health benefits of this are
20:54immense. There's a Swedish study that
20:55actually showed that the more sunlight
20:57people got, the longer they lived. In
20:59fact, smokers who got a lot of sunlight,
21:02this isn't my favorite study, but um but
21:04we have have admit it's there, lived
21:06longer than non-smokers who didn't get
21:08enough sunlight. There and there are
21:09other things, too, like exercise, etc.
21:11But don't smoke, but get sunlight.
21:14>> There'll be a lot of night shift workers
21:15listening.
21:16>> I have a section specifically for night
21:17shift workers because
21:20here are the two scariest things. Night
21:22shift workers
21:24live shorter lives, cancer rates go up,
21:27they're metabolically unhealthy, and
21:30it's very hard to mitigate. But I
21:32provide some tools specifically for
21:33night shift workers and for jet lag, by
21:35the way, because people travel.
21:38Here's the really scary thing.
21:40You and I qualify as night shift workers
21:42because the studies on night shift work,
21:45barring some of the more extreme ones,
21:46was most of them were on how many people
21:50after 6:00 p.m.,
21:51right, are on devices,
21:54getting artificial LED exposure, or
21:56doing activities besides eating and
21:58socializing with their family or in bed.
22:00If you work at night at home, you're
22:02still a night shift worker. You don't
22:03have to work all night to be a night
22:05shift worker. So, we have a generation
22:07of kids that are metabolically sick. And
22:10I don't like to be one of these like
22:11fearmonger people,
22:13but here's the cool thing. I'm going to
22:14skip cuz we're on to this, I'm going to
22:16skip to number six.
22:18>> Okay.
22:18>> Okay?
22:19As the sun is going down, you don't have
22:21to watch the sunset. That would be cool
22:23to watch the sun Everyone loves sunsets.
22:25But try and get some daylight in your
22:27eyes in the late afternoon or evening.
22:29If you're going to be working indoors
22:30from like after lunch until nightfall,
22:33try and get near a window, do your best,
22:34go out on a balcony, take a quick walk
22:36around the building, do what you can to
22:37get some sunlight in your eyes without
22:39sunglasses. When you get some sunlight
22:41in your eyes in the late part of your
22:43day, let's just say in the last third of
22:45your day, and the clock times don't
22:47matter here cuz we all get up and go to
22:48sleep at different times,
22:50you buffer you those cells in your eye
22:53against the negative effects of
22:55artificial light at night. This is your
22:57Netflix inoculation, as I call it. Like
23:00you can be on your computer at 9:00 or
23:0210:00 at night without it damaging your
23:04melatonin levels quite as much, without
23:06it disrupting your blood glucose levels
23:08and your sleep, if you get some bright
23:10light in your eyes
23:11in the later part of your day. But,
23:13there's one population of people for
23:14whom this doesn't work. And it seems to
23:16be adolescents. You can't buffer them
23:18against the negative effects of screen
23:20light at night. What happens if you view
23:22screen light at night? You get big bumps
23:24in cortisol. And people say, "Well, I
23:26can fall asleep just fine after being on
23:27my iPad or screen."
23:30True, some people don't have as much of
23:31a negative effect from blue light at
23:33night.
23:34But, the blood glucose effects and the
23:36next morning cortisol effects are the
23:39problem. Remember I said high cortisol
23:40sets you up for low cortisol?
23:42>> Yeah.
23:43>> Low cortisol sets you up for high
23:44cortisol. So, you've got a population of
23:46people, kids, who have their cortisol is
23:48slightly but significantly higher in the
23:50evening and at night because they're on
23:52devices. And the next morning, their
23:54cortisol levels are struggling to get
23:56up.
23:57>> Mhm.
23:57>> You know, this is a tough one because
24:00teens socialize that way and you you
24:01don't want to take their phones away.
24:02And they cling to their iPads like, you
24:04know, like my new bulldog, Strummer,
24:07clings to a chew toy, you know? It's
24:09like, you take it away from them, but
24:10like they hate you for it. So, I said
24:12view daylight cuz you can't always see
24:14the sun, but even if it's overcast, just
24:15get out for a few minutes and take a
24:16walk. Your sleep will be better. I feel
24:19like I'm giving [clears throat] a
24:19lecture in class.
24:20>> That's amazing. That's what I want.
24:21>> we said hydrate, sunlight. And then
24:23number three, I know everyone's heard
24:25it, but if you can exercise in the first
24:28three to four hours of your day, you
24:30could do it in the afternoon without
24:31problem, but there's a huge advantage to
24:33doing cardiovascular resistance training
24:35in the first three hours of your day.
24:37>> Cardiovascular or resistance training?
24:39>> Yeah. And in the book, I devoted an
24:40entire chapter, chapter two, to
24:42exercise. And I explain what I think
24:44personally is the best way to structure
24:46an exercise program for somebody who
24:48doesn't want to be the most jacked, but
24:49wants muscle and definition and
24:51strength. Somebody that doesn't need to
24:53run a marathon for a record time, but
24:55wants endurance. Somebody who wants to
24:57be able to sprint reasonably fast and
24:59has middle-distance ability, too. And
25:02it's basically structured you either
25:03lift or do cardio on alternating days.
25:05Three days total of lifting, warm-up,
25:08reasonably low volume of work sets, two
25:10to three work sets per exercise,
25:13emphasizing compound movements. So, not
25:15a like a preacher curl or a tricep
25:18kickback. Those are fine, but you're
25:19going to get a lot more bang for your
25:20buck if you're doing pull-ups, rows,
25:23dips.
25:24>> Multiple muscles at once.
25:25>> Multiple joints moving at once is
25:27compound Um some hip hinge movement. So,
25:30could be squat, hack squat, some
25:31deadlifts. And I talk about how to get
25:33specific aesthetic effects in there,
25:34too. I mean, I'm by no means an exercise
25:36physiologist, but I've been resistance
25:38training since I was 16. I'm I'm now 50.
25:40I'll be 51 in a month. So, I feel great.
25:43>> Cardio at the start if you're doing
25:44resistance training or not at all?
25:46>> I warm up for 5 minutes of cardio and
25:47then resistance train, but I do the
25:49cardio on alternate days. Three days
25:50total of cardio. One day of cardio is
25:52long and slow for about an hour. One is
25:54about 30 minutes at moderate intensity.
25:56One is a short one like I did this
25:58morning I'm on the Airdyne bike. Pedal
26:01easy for a minute, then go all out for
26:0230 seconds, easy for 10, 30, 10, 30, 10,
26:0630, 10, and then you're off the bike.
26:07Basically, max heart rate training.
26:08>> Mhm.
26:09>> And the day after leg day,
26:11if you do your legs right, take a rest
26:13day.
26:13>> Yeah.
26:13>> Yeah. But the here's what the
26:15interesting thing about exercise. You
26:17notice I didn't say deliberate cold
26:18exposure.
26:20You want [clears throat] to blow some
26:21minds?
26:22I will go toe-to-toe with anybody on the
26:24internet or off the internet. Deliberate
26:27cold exposure does not raise cortisol.
26:30>> This much.
26:31>> It's amazing to me that the same people
26:33that are suggesting moderate to
26:35high-intensity exercise are saying that
26:36deliberate cold exposure raises
26:38cortisol. It's simply not true. Not true
26:40for women cuz a lot of people said, "Is
26:42your book going to be for women and
26:42men?" I distinguish between data when
26:45there are data showing that it's
26:46different for women and men. I
26:47acknowledge when there's no data in
26:48women.
26:49And the The are very clear in women and
26:51men. Trivial increases in cortisol.
26:54Magnificent, huge increases in
26:56adrenaline, norepinephrine, and dopamine
26:58from
26:59deliberate cold exposure. And that those
27:01so-called catecholamines are great to
27:03have rolling into your day. They're the
27:04things of alertness and focus. The
27:06appropriate stressor for cortisol,
27:08appropriate meaning the one that you
27:09want, is a psychological stressor. We
27:11know that.
27:12>> Mhm.
27:12>> Working out with weights for 45 minutes,
27:14taking your sets near to failure, going
27:16for a run for 30 minutes. So,
27:19the point being, if you do this exercise
27:22in the first 3 hours of your day, you're
27:24getting a big inflection in cortisol.
27:26Again, this is what you want.
27:28Now, some people can't exercise first
27:30thing in the day. They either don't want
27:31to or they can't by way of schedule. And
27:34if you're going to exercise in the later
27:36part of your day, that's fine. Your
27:37cortisol will come back down. You can do
27:39some long exhale breathing to slow your
27:41heart rate. Andy Galpin talks about
27:42that. Take a hot shower, which
27:45paradoxically lowers your core body
27:47temperature and then helps you sleep.
27:48When you heat up the surface of your
27:49body,
27:50>> Mhm.
27:50>> you have a thermostat in your brain
27:51called the medial preoptic area, and it
27:53goes, "Oh, the surface of my body is
27:55warm. I should probably cool my core
27:57body temperature down." And you fall
27:58asleep better.
28:00Yeah, this is like the the putting socks
28:01on effect or the hot bath effect, right?
28:03>> I assume a massage or something like
28:04that also.
28:05>> Great. Really? You have access to that
28:07in the last hour of your day? Like, uh
28:09we need to learn more about your life.
28:10>> [laughter]
28:11>> My fiance used to be a masseuse for many
28:13years, so she
28:14>> Awesome. So, when you exercise for a few
28:17days
28:18early in the first 3 hours of your day.
28:20Let's say you do that two times.
28:22The next morning you wake up feeling a
28:24little bit more willing to exercise. Did
28:26your willpower change? Well, in some
28:28sense, yes, but what happened was your
28:30cortisol entrainment mechanisms change.
28:32Your suprachiasmatic nucleus all day is
28:35clocking what you're doing. Let's say
28:36you eat like 9, 12, snack at 3, and
28:396:30. You have a food anticipatory
28:41signal. Yep.
28:43Ghrelin is secreted, makes you hungry.
28:45We are clocks, and the synchronization
28:47of those clocks is very very important.
28:48When you exercise at roughly the same
28:50time of day, early in the day, you will
28:52have more energy to exercise in the
28:54first 15 minutes before that. You'll
28:56notice you kind of start stirring
28:57around. Yes, part of it is cognitive,
28:59but a lot of it actually is your brain
29:02is anticipating
29:03exercise is coming. Oh, cool.
29:06That's I teach neuroanatomy, so this is
29:08fun.
29:09>> I have a a brain here in front of me. It
29:11does open up in case you want to open it
29:12up, but you just reminded me of
29:14something. You reminded me of something
29:16that I saw you talk about, which was the
29:17anterior mid-cingulate cortex.
29:20And I think you described this as being
29:22one of the most interesting Yeah, yeah.
29:24discoveries of neuroscience.
29:26>> So, cingulate cortex, I mean, it's not
29:28directly exposed here, but the anterior
29:30mid-cingulate cortex would sit somewhere
29:32like there. This is an amazing
29:36structure. Right? I mean, just to remind
29:39people, like when we feel some sort of
29:42pressure, social pressure, physical
29:44pressure,
29:45traffic that we hate,
29:47and we decide I'm going to lean into
29:49this, like I'm going to compete or I'm
29:51going to push through this internal or
29:53external resistance, neurons in the
29:55anterior mid-cingulate cortex are just
29:57firing away. And if that area is
29:59stimulated, my colleague Joe Parvizi at
30:01Stanford showed this, he's a
30:03neurosurgeon, people say, "I feel like a
30:05challenge is coming on and I'm going to
30:06lean into it." This is the brain area of
30:09tenacity.
30:11And the amazing thing is it has
30:13connections all over the brain with
30:15reward systems, etc. So, it's collecting
30:17information about when it gets
30:19activated, what's going on in the world
30:21that makes you feel pressure, when you
30:23feel like pushing back, when you don't.
30:24But, the best part is it is highly
30:26subject to plasticity. People who diet
30:29successfully,
30:31their anterior mid-cingulate cortex gets
30:33bigger and more active.
30:35People who embark on a new exercise
30:37program, adding some component of
30:39exercise, for me it's mobility work, cuz
30:41I've got a little stiff over the years.
30:43I know. So, when you do something that
30:45you don't want to do, that you don't
30:47reflexively do,
30:49your anterior midcingulate cortex gets
30:51bigger and more willing to engage in
30:53challenging things going forward.
30:54>> Yeah, so that's the key point, which is
30:56that sets you up to be able to do more
30:58challenging things in the future.
31:00>> That's right.
31:01Why would you do deliberate cold
31:03exposure? I'll tell you why. Because
31:05your ability to sit calmly,
31:08or even not so calmly, when your system
31:09is flooded with adrenaline and
31:11norepinephrine, and to be able to
31:12trigger that with cold water safely,
31:15like cold shower, getting into a cold
31:16ice bath, it's safe as long as you're
31:17not so cold, as long as you're not
31:19hyperventilating beforehand on purpose,
31:21that carries over to your ability to
31:23keep your head straight when other
31:25things trigger adrenaline. You don't get
31:2710 stress systems. You get one, and
31:30stress looks like your adrenaline goes
31:32and it comes down slowly. It's a
31:34hallmark of stress. Cortisol goes up, go
31:36goes down. Right, so the
31:38Uh you are prepared, my friend. My
31:40goodness. You should be a university
31:41professor. You want to teach with me at
31:43Stanford? So, I came up with a model for
31:45arousal, right? When people hear
31:47arousal, and they think, "Oh, it's got
31:48to be romantic arousal." It can be, but
31:50arousal is really just how alert or
31:52sleepy you are. So,
31:53you can be really sleepy, like in a
31:55coma, or you can be in full-blown panic.
31:57Nobody wants that. But a seesaw is the
31:59right analogy here, because we have this
32:00thing called the autonomic nervous
32:02system.
32:03And the autonomic nervous system
32:05is made up of two parts, parasympathetic
32:09and the sympathetic nervous system.
32:10They're in different parts of the body.
32:12They both
32:13connect to most every organ, but in
32:15general,
32:16when you are relaxed, that's what we
32:18call
32:19the reflection of parasympathetic tone
32:22going up. When you're stressed, it's the
32:23reflection of sympathetic tone going up.
32:26But as you get sleepy, your
32:27parasympathetic nervous system starts to
32:30dominate a bit. And as you get really
32:32sleepy, it dominates more. When you wake
32:34up in the morning, and then if you do
32:36the right things like hydrate, get
32:37sunlight, and some exercise, well, then
32:39your cortisol goes up and you're going
32:41to be more alert.
32:43The ability to navigate stress of all
32:46kinds
32:47depends on your ability to do what I
32:49call is control the tightness of this
32:51hinge. When you train your ability to
32:55think,
32:57breathe, stay calm when your system is
32:59flooded with adrenaline, and that
33:01happens later
33:03in a way that was non-voluntary,
33:04something happened that you didn't want
33:06to happen, your brain immediately flips
33:08to the understanding of that place
33:10and you are able to maintain
33:13thoughtfulness. You can know to not
33:14speak. That's often the best thing you
33:15can do. You know to react or not react.
33:18In fact, when you get into a cold
33:20plunge, one of the beautiful things
33:21about cold is that your prefrontal
33:23cortex that's involved in strategy
33:25setting and making meaning out of what's
33:27going on,
33:28its activity is greatly suppressed for
33:31the first 20 to 30 seconds. Know this
33:34about every stressful circumstance. In
33:36the first 20 or 30 seconds, you are
33:38brain damaged.
33:39You are brain damaged. You're You are in
33:42that mode of like you could react
33:43physically. Sometimes that can save your
33:45life, but most times you just don't want
33:48to do anything. Step out of the way of
33:49the car, get away from the aggressor,
33:51whatever, but most times you're best off
33:53not saying a darn thing and then your
33:56prefrontal cortex slowly starts coming
33:57back online. And then you're back again
33:59cuz you ruminate, you know, it
34:00>> This is good relationship advice.
34:01>> Very good relationship advice.
34:02[laughter] I wish I had learned it long
34:04ago, right? Actually, last night I
34:05looked on Twitter and I saw something
34:07that was both perplexing and a little
34:08bit upsetting to me and I went to sleep
34:10like I know how to deal with this I'm
34:12long exhale breathing, which will slow
34:13your heart rate and we'll talk about
34:14that.
34:15But I woke up this morning, turns out it
34:17was a complete misunderstanding and
34:19everything was reversed. But last night
34:21I thought about sending a text.
34:23But I thought
34:25later at night the prefrontal cortex is
34:26already diminished. This is why stress
34:28feels so much harder to deal with at
34:30night.
34:30>> And prefrontal cortex, we should
34:31describe that as being logic
34:33>> and stuff.
34:34>> So, um frontal cortex, so here it's
34:36logical. You have the frontal and motor
34:39areas here, and your prefrontal cortex
34:41is basically a big patch of real estate
34:43behind your forehead that in humans is
34:45greatly expanded compared to in other
34:48mammals. I don't like calling them
34:50lower, but they have less prefrontal
34:51cortex, so they're more driven by their
34:53impulses. One of the most incredible
34:55things that every child and adult needs
34:58to develop is what's called top-down
34:59inhibition.
35:01You feel an impulse, but you resist the
35:03impulse.
35:04>> Mhm.
35:05>> In fact, the way I mostly trained my
35:07dog, Drummer, cuz it works, is I taught
35:10him at 9 weeks of age, put down a piece
35:12of food, of course he goes for it, he
35:14loves food, and you teach him wait. And
35:16he sits there, and you teach him to look
35:18at you, and then now he I can have him
35:20moving toward a piece of food, and I say
35:22wait, and his nose can be this far, and
35:24he'll just stop. He has great top-down
35:26inhibition. Is it about food? No. Am I
35:28trying to torture him? Of course not.
35:30It's so that if I say wait, he can
35:32suppress his arousal.
35:34>> Mhm.
35:35>> This is one of the most valuable skills,
35:37and people with frontal damage show an
35:39inability to do that, which is why
35:40sometimes they're violent or they say
35:41inappropriate things.
35:43People who are tired, stressed, drunk,
35:47prefrontal cortex activity is
35:48suppressed. Get in a cold shower, first
35:5120, 30 seconds, it's kind of fun. You're
35:53you're like, here I am with less of a
35:55brain than I had getting in,
35:58and then 30 seconds later, you're like,
36:00I can do this.
36:01>> This explains why you shouldn't do
36:02things tired.
36:03>> Don't do things tired, don't say things
36:05tired.
36:06Impulse control is way worse.
36:08>> when I heard you talk about the anterior
36:09mid-cingulate cortex, and that there was
36:10this part of the brain that was kind of
36:12like the willpower, or you described it
36:14then as the tenacity muscle, yeah, it
36:17completely changed my relationship with
36:19hard things. Because it made me realize
36:21at some sort of like, I guess some
36:23conceptual level, that every hard thing
36:25I overcome is better equipping me, like
36:28when I you know curl weights in the gym
36:30to do harder things tomorrow.
36:32>> Yes.
36:32>> When I had Oh, there's like a
36:33neurological I'm making a neurological
36:35investment in my future. And then you
36:38talked there about doing voluntary
36:40difficult things like the cold plunge
36:42whatever to or learning a new language.
36:44>> It can be cognitive in nature.
36:46It can be learning to dance if that's
36:48stressful for you and it can be anything
36:50that creates some resistance for you
36:53internal resistance.
36:55Anything of that sort. A beautiful
36:57structure because it's wired into
36:59cognitive capacities and our ability to
37:01build them and challenges with that too.
37:03Emotional challenges.
37:04>> We're kind of optimizing our lives
37:05towards comfort though, aren't we?
37:06That's like a winning formula is more
37:09comfortable things.
37:11On most
37:11>> Dorsey said it best. There's this great
37:13video of him online. It was a it was a
37:15small lecture that he was giving where
37:16he said anytime we exchange ourselves,
37:19our money, our time for convenience, we
37:21are almost always giving up something
37:23that's like fundamentally useful for us
37:25neurologically. And it's okay to do. I
37:28order food on DoorDash cuz there's great
37:30food and I don't have a lot of time to
37:32cook. I'd like to devote my time to
37:33other things.
37:34I'm trading for convenience. But if
37:36you're aware of the trade-off,
37:38you're much better off.
37:40And the real question is what you're
37:41going to do with that additional time.
37:43While I'm against, you know, over
37:45optimization to the point that it pulls
37:47you out of life, like it diminishes
37:48life, I am all for striving and
37:50optimization, quote-unquote, in ways
37:53that allow you to lean into the rest of
37:54your life with more vigor. I think
37:56Arthur Brooks says it best, you know, I
37:57mean, we are wired and meaning comes
38:00from striving. And within striving is
38:03some struggle and within struggle is
38:05also the release from struggle.
38:07And that's also very satisfying. Here's
38:11the over optimization thing to me in a
38:12nutshell, which is
38:15there are people for whom doing
38:17two of the things I described for 5
38:20minutes each per day will experience a
38:21significant improvement in their mental
38:23and physical health. There are people
38:24for whom they're sort of like junkyard
38:26dogs, they can live on anything, they
38:27have a ton of vigor. And they're going
38:29to be like, "Yeah, I didn't feel that
38:30much from like drinking some water and
38:31getting sunlight." Cool. Like, got you.
38:33You're one of those people who can fall
38:34asleep in front of the screen, get up,
38:35and just keep going on uh
38:37you know, a sugary muffin and something
38:38like great.
38:40But everyone can afford to take a look
38:43at what they're doing now and try and
38:44move the needle toward more vigor,
38:47well-being,
38:49happiness, peace by doing certain
38:51things.
38:51>> Do you become more sensitive to the
38:53thing when you stop doing the thing?
38:55>> Depends on the thing. So, for instance,
38:57if people like I talk about nutrition in
39:00there and not we it's one of the cards.
39:01I actually cover everything from the all
39:03meat diet to vegan diets. So, I really
39:06go into the literature so people can
39:07choose. But really, if you look at what
39:10most people could benefit from doing,
39:12and you could do this with vegan or
39:13vegetarian, it's a little harder, but
39:15the best diet is going to be the
39:16following, right?
39:17Not too many calories, not too few.
39:20That's individual, you can calculate
39:21that. It's an easy thing to do, but I
39:22provide a way to do that. You need to
39:24get what's what are high complete
39:26protein to calorie ratio proteins. This
39:29is a concept I came up with because if
39:31you look at the literature, yes, we need
39:33the essential amino acids, so that's a
39:35complete protein, but
39:37you can get that from beans and rice,
39:39but to get 30 g of
39:42complete protein from beans and rice,
39:44you're going to consume about four to
39:45five times as many calories as is
39:47required if you get it from a chicken
39:48breast. So, this is the the factor
39:50that's kind of obvious, but no one ever
39:51talks about. So, you want to eat some
39:53high complete protein to calorie ratio
39:55proteins. So,
39:57you know, eggs, lean meat, fish, and
39:59then everyone knows you need fiber,
40:01>> Mhm.
40:01>> right? So, vegetables and fruits. But
40:03what I will say is that many people who
40:05remove us starches entirely
40:08>> Mhm.
40:08>> [clears throat]
40:08>> or remove vegetables entirely, will find
40:10that they their autoimmune issues
40:11resolve.
40:13And there are reasons for that, and we
40:14have to acknowledge that. But most
40:16people should be eating some vegetables
40:18and fruit for micronutrients and fiber.
40:21Low-sugar fermented foods it's very
40:22clear Justin Sonnenburg's work from
40:24Stanford
40:25very clear, lowers the inflammatome. In
40:27fact, when they had people eat more
40:29fiber,
40:30for many people inflammatory markers
40:32went up. No one likes to talk about
40:34that, especially not the vegans, but too
40:36much fiber can be noxious for some
40:38people
40:39and pro-inflammatory. So, low-sugar
40:41fermented foods like sauerkraut, kimchi,
40:44beet kvass is delicious. Problem is they
40:47tend to be expensive, but you can make
40:48your own and there's recipes online to
40:50do these things.
40:51I don't want to get into the seed oil
40:53debate. Just eat Just use olive oil.
40:55It's delicious. It's relatively
40:57inexpensive nowadays to get real olive
40:59oil. Small amounts of butter.
41:01Okay, like like why are we even debating
41:03seed oils? It's so dumb. It's like the
41:05the seed oil debate is like the fastest
41:07way to kill neurons that I'm aware of.
41:09You know, it's like so dumb. It's like
41:10because the studies are not well done.
41:12You're comparing a processed food diet
41:14that includes seed oils versus where
41:16you're talking clean seed oils versus a
41:18high-meat diet with processed meat. It's
41:20a It's a mess. It's like as a scientist
41:22you just look at this and you go like,
41:23this field sucks. Like it Someone wants
41:26to have a magnificent career in science,
41:28go into the field of nutrition and do
41:31some really good studies because the
41:33studies are lousy. 90% of them like you
41:37can look at it. You don't even have to
41:38be trained in nutrition and go there
41:39five different variables here and four
41:41over here. There's like what you would
41:42call a bad experiment.
41:43>> Mhm.
41:44>> So, olive oil the data are great.
41:47It's impressive. And then starches
41:49are great for fueling muscles and
41:52glycogen and brain,
41:54but you don't want to overdo them. And
41:55the way that people tend to overdo
41:57starches is by eating starches combined
42:00with a lot of fats.
42:01So, sourdough bread is great. Sourdough
42:03bread with butter
42:05is even better if you ask me. Sourdough
42:07bread with equal amounts of butter and
42:08bread, you're starting to get into
42:10problems. It's very hard for people to
42:11go from like to overeat starches unless
42:14they have a lot of fats with them or
42:16sugar with them.
42:17>> On starches, is there an impact I think
42:19I've heard you talk about an impact on
42:20your sleep with what you eat late at
42:22night?
42:22>> Many people who don't eat enough
42:24starches find that they have sleep
42:26issues. And there are reasons for this
42:28because we talk about comfort foods.
42:31Typically people think junk foods when
42:33they think comfort foods, but foods that
42:36increase glucose lower cortisol.
42:39>> Mhm.
42:39>> That's weird. Starches lower cortisol
42:42and you want your cortisol low at night.
42:44Helps you fall and stay asleep. Now, you
42:46don't want to eat too close to bedtime.
42:47You also don't want to have gnawing
42:49hunger at bedtime. We talked about that.
42:51But here's the interesting thing. What
42:52is cortisol?
42:54I should have mentioned this earlier.
42:55What is cortisol? Is it a stress
42:56hormone? No, it's a hormone that's
42:58released during stress.
42:59But cor- cortisol's job is not to deal
43:04with stress. Cortisol's job is to
43:06mobilize energy in the body.
43:09When cortisol goes up, glucose is
43:10mobilized and other fuels, too. So, when
43:13you eat starches, you buffer cortisol.
43:17There's a very clear relationship here.
43:19So, people who are not eating enough
43:21starches, who then allow themselves that
43:24bowl of rice or a bowl of pasta in their
43:26final meal of the day or a little bit at
43:27lunch and at dinner, maybe even a bowl
43:28of oatmeal
43:30breakfast, they feel more even
43:33psychologically, they have more physical
43:35energy. Sometimes people with chronic
43:37stress issues notice they stop shaking.
43:38People with autoimmune issues sometimes
43:40resolve those because your cortisol is
43:41buffered
43:42because your blood glucose is elevated.
43:44And so, your body isn't tapping into the
43:46survival system to try and mobilize
43:48glucose. So,
43:50>> I have this outstanding question that I
43:51have to ask you. It goes back to the
43:52picture that you drew of the graph.
43:54Where is that one?
43:54>> Yeah. You said high cortisol in the
43:56morning is a good thing.
43:58>> Yep.
43:58>> So,
43:59what if I
44:00pick up my phone first thing in the
44:02morning and I look at my worst emails?
44:04>> In some sense, from the perspective of
44:06spiking your cortisol, like it's a good
44:08thing. But can you do it outside while
44:09getting sunlight?
44:11>> I was wondering if it matters like how
44:12the cortisol comes, because what if I
44:13stress myself out in the morning?
44:15>> matter. I do I really
44:16>> It doesn't matter.
44:16>> Interesting.
44:17>> is the rumination that comes with
44:18stress. Right? So,
44:20you know, the nice thing about physical
44:21stressors that we control, like a
44:23workout or a cold plunge,
44:26is that they have an onset and an
44:28offset, and yes, they start faster than
44:30they end, right? You have a stress and
44:32it kind of carries over, you ruminate.
44:34But psychological stressors tend to
44:36bang around in our brain a lot and late
44:38at night, and they tend to come back. I
44:40will say this, I think 2027 is going to
44:43be the year that we close the coffin on
44:46this cortisol is bad thing.
44:47>> So, how should I think about cortisol,
44:49because right now I think of it as the
44:50stress hormone.
44:52>> It's to mobilize energy.
44:53>> Okay.
44:53>> So, you can use it.
44:55>> Okay.
44:55>> And if you're going to sleep at night,
44:56you don't need to mobilize energy so you
44:58can use it. You need to rest and reset
44:59your body.
45:00>> Okay.
45:01>> Cortisol is an energy-promoting
45:04hormone.
45:04>> So, if I walk up on stage, my cortisol
45:06level, like before I go up on stage and
45:07there's a big audience, whatever, my
45:08cortisol level's going to go up then.
45:10>> Yeah, if you're stressed about it, maybe
45:12a little bit more, but it's it's it's a
45:13preparation hormone. You're preparing
45:15for adversity, but also great things.
45:17There are these beautiful studies from a
45:18guy named James McGaugh and Larry
45:20Cahill, which showed, do you know that
45:22if you want somebody to learn something,
45:24you know what you do? You spike their
45:25cortisol before, during, or after that
45:27thing.
45:28Should work, why not? Trauma does that,
45:30and you never forget.
45:32All you do is work on trying to remove
45:34the emotional load of that traumatic
45:35thing.
45:36>> Wait, so if does that mean that someone
45:38who's listening to this podcast right
45:39now in the gym is going to have better
45:41knowledge recall of what we talked about
45:43than someone who's listening in bed?
45:44>> Great question. So, I have a a chapter
45:46that's all about learning, motivation,
45:48and plasticity. And
45:50we've all heard exercise makes your
45:51brain better.
45:53How? Why? Turns out it's very important
45:56to understand there are two ways it does
45:57it.
45:58Or at least two. One is it raises your
46:00levels of arousal.
46:02Exercise doesn't make you smarter.
46:03Exercise makes you more alert coming out
46:05of the exercise so you can go learn
46:07things cuz it turns out you have to be
46:09alert to learn things. In particular,
46:10you need adrenaline and cortisol
46:13elevated to learn things.
46:14So, when people say, you know,
46:16weightlifting makes is good for your
46:18brain, cardio is good for your brain,
46:20turns out long slow cardio, my endurance
46:23friends aren't going to like this, not
46:24that great for your brain.
46:25It's not bad for your brain, but it's
46:26not that great for your brain.
46:28Turns out an intense weightlifting
46:29session or high-intensity interval
46:31training session, in the 4 hours after
46:33that, you are primed for learning. Why?
46:36You got a lot of stimulatory molecules
46:39in your body and you can focus better.
46:40>> What about if I'm a podcaster and I want
46:42to be able to ask good questions and use
46:44my mouth and my brain in that context of
46:46it, not not necessarily just learning
46:48but performance of my sort of cognition.
46:50>> the performance curve basically is
46:52inverted U. If you're not alert enough,
46:54you can't do what you need to do. If
46:56you're too alert, you can't do what you
46:57need to do or learn. So, you want to be
46:59at the top of that inverted U. And a lot
47:01of what learning is about and a lot of
47:03what the anterior midcingulate cortex is
47:05about is getting from I don't want to do
47:07it
47:08up to the top of that U. Then it's
47:10usually about not getting too stressed.
47:12Now, I learned the best trick for this,
47:14like the two best tricks. And in fact,
47:16that will take us to number five, you
47:18can use any time of of day, which is use
47:21physiological sighs to reduce stress
47:23fast. Okay, so I have a a chapter on
47:24stress mitigation and it's got
47:26essentially two components. One is how
47:28to limit stress in the moment.
47:30>> Okay.
47:30>> Very, very important to know how to
47:32limit stress in the moment. And here
47:33>> Why is it so important?
47:34>> Oh, gosh, because meditation, great
47:37night's sleep, massage,
47:40social relations, being well-fed,
47:42hydrated, all of that helps you buffer
47:44stress.
47:45But when something happens and your
47:47heart rate is too high or you're shaking
47:49and you can't organize your thoughts in
47:51the way you want, none of that helps.
47:53You've gone over the line. You're too
47:55far on the arousal spectrum towards
47:57alert.
47:59And it was about 2016 that I realized
48:02I'm going to take a significant portion
48:04of my lab and work on this problem. I
48:06want to find real-time tools for
48:07mitigating stress. So, I started hanging
48:09around with people from special
48:10operations who sit nice baths and cold
48:12water and they don't actually do ice
48:13baths by the way in the SEAL teams. They
48:15spend a lot of time in cold water during
48:16their training and I started talking to
48:18people in performance fields and
48:19particular neurosurgeons, people who
48:21deal with life or death circumstances
48:23for many, many years and maintain
48:24immense calm. One of my closest
48:26childhood friends, he's you should have
48:28him on this podcast. It's His name is
48:30Dr. Eddie Chang and he's a neurosurgeon
48:32at UCSF. He's the chair of neurosurgery
48:34and he's brought people out of locked-in
48:36syndrome to speak through AI. He's also
48:38a bioengineer. He's also been my friend
48:40since we were 7 years old and we talk
48:42three times a week these days about
48:44science and I actually visited his
48:46laboratory and got to see him take a
48:48golf ball-sized tumor out of a guy's
48:49forebrain while the guy was awake.
48:51>> Wow.
48:52>> Eddie is the calmest guy you'll ever
48:54meet. Why? Because a movement of less
48:57than a millimeter in the wrong direction
48:58for him could cost a patient's life.
49:01People have ways to calm down in real
49:03time. So, I teamed up with a colleague,
49:05his name is David Spiegel. He's ours at
49:07that time he was our associate chair of
49:08psychiatry and he studies hypnosis, but
49:11clinical hypnosis for smoking cessation,
49:13pain management, and anxiety.
49:15And I should say mainly Melis Yilmaz
49:19Balaban in my lab did the study where
49:21she built this stress lab with VR and
49:24stress and that's a whole other thing.
49:26And then we did the study where about
49:28100 or so subjects were fixed with
49:31trackers that measured heart rate and
49:32heart rate variability and sleep and
49:35people were in a one of four groups.
49:37They either meditated for 5 minutes a
49:39day or they did box breathing, inhale,
49:41hold, exhale, hold for 5 minutes, okay?
49:44>> Like 4 seconds each was it?
49:45>> There's a way you can measure it which
49:46is the carbon dioxide tolerance test.
49:48Like how well you can control an exhale
49:50will tell you a little bit about how
49:51stressed you are. When you're stressed,
49:53you tend to blow off carbon dioxide very
49:55quickly. And when you're less stressed,
49:56it tends to shift towards long exhales
49:58become easier. So, one of the groups and
50:01then I'll say what the mechanism is, did
50:03cyclic hyperventilation.
50:05Some people call this Wim Hof breathing,
50:06Tummo breathing, Pranayama breathing.
50:08It's big inhales,
50:11passive exhales. Repeat it for 5
50:13minutes.
50:14>> [snorts]
50:15[sighs]
50:16>> Massively spikes adrenaline,
50:18which isn't a bad thing. You're
50:19controlling it anyway. Does not spike
50:21cortisol very much, incidentally.
50:24And when you do those exhales, you're
50:26blowing off a lot of carbon dioxide. So,
50:28it shifts your internal state and tends
50:29to make people very alert.
50:31Or they did There was a fourth condition
50:33where they did a double inhale, long
50:35exhale. Repeat, the so-called
50:37physiological sigh. So, Jack Feldman at
50:40UCLA and some other folks in the 30
50:421930s
50:44had
50:45observed that animals and people, when
50:47they're very relaxed, would do this kind
50:49of strange pattern of breathing where
50:50they would go
50:52>> [sighs]
50:52[gasps]
50:54>> It's a double inhale, long exhale.
50:57Jack's lab discovers there's a brain
50:59area called the parafacial nucleus,
51:01which is specifically
51:03there to generate this double inhale,
51:05exhale pattern in animals and in humans.
51:08Wild. Well, nature doesn't make mistakes
51:10like that. Okay, it turns out there are
51:12two breathing centers.
51:14One is in called the pre-Bötzinger
51:15complex, named after a bottle of wine.
51:18>> [gasps]
51:20>> Pattern of breathing where you inhale,
51:21exhale
51:22what that you alternate. This other
51:24structure, the parafacial nucleus, which
51:26we all have, is involved in anytime you
51:28double up the inhales or exhales. And
51:29it's involved in breathing while you
51:30speak or sing or eat. And it generates
51:34these physiological sighs, which it
51:36turns out get triggered in environments
51:38where there's not enough oxygen. Or when
51:40you get claustrophobic or when you get
51:42very stressed,
51:44carbon dioxide goes up, your brain
51:46senses that,
51:48and it triggers the gasp reflex. That
51:50double inhale maximally inflates the
51:53millions, hundreds of millions of little
51:54sacs in the lungs, and then when you
51:56exhale, you offload the greatest amount
51:58of carbon dioxide. So, if you just go
52:02you're not offloading as much carbon
52:03dioxide, but if you
52:05>> [snorts]
52:07[sighs and gasps]
52:08>> that second short inhale
52:10takes these little sacs in your lungs,
52:12which are like balloons at a kids party,
52:14and they're empty.
52:15But they're fluid-lined on the So,
52:17there's some surface tension inside
52:19them. They're sticking together. So, you
52:21go
52:22it's the double inhale that opens those
52:24up. And then you offload the carbon
52:26dioxide.
52:27Now, that's great, but the real magic of
52:30deliberate long exhales
52:32is that they slow your heart rate down
52:34through a process called respiratory
52:35sinus arrhythmia.
52:37This is like the most important thing
52:39for anyone to interested in stress,
52:41exercise, sleep, and wellness because
52:45the wild thing is, we have this vagus
52:47nerve. Everyone likes talk about the
52:48vagus nerve. It's a massive nerve bundle
52:51that collects sensory information and
52:53chemical information from the organs of
52:55the body and sends it up to the brain.
52:57Cool. And it's classified as
52:59parasympathetic. Calming.
53:02But you know what's funny?
53:03Neuroscientists, when they want to wake
53:05up and a person during an experiment,
53:07like a neurosurgery experiment, they
53:09stimulate the vagus.
53:11A treatment for for depression is to
53:13stimulate the vagus.
53:15Guess what that does? Makes people more
53:16alert. So, it's a mixed nerve.
53:19But the really cool part about the vagus
53:22is that it's not all ascending.
53:24Oh, the 85% of the information is going
53:27up from the body through the vagus, but
53:29there's another pathway, too, and it
53:30goes down.
53:32And it goes down to your heart.
53:35And it controls the slowing of the heart
53:38rate when you exhale.
53:40Heart rate variability is the slowing of
53:44your heart rate when you exhale.
53:47You want to increase your HRV? Do a few
53:49deliberate exhales during the day.
53:52People go, "How do I get my HRV up?"
53:54Well, yeah, you do some VO2 max
53:55training, right? Like, you know,
53:56obviously you do some max heart rate
53:58training, some hit workouts, et cetera.
54:00You really want to increase your HRV in
54:02sleep and while waking? Just do some
54:03deliberate exhales during the day
54:05because that's the parasympathetic, the
54:07calming arm of the vagus, pushing down
54:11on your heart rate. And all of the
54:13groups I described
54:15saw benefits, but it was the people who
54:17did these physiological sighs that
54:18benefited the most.
54:20So, then I started exploring, well, how
54:23fast does heart rate slow down with
54:24physiological sighs? It turns out you
54:25don't need to do it for 5 minutes.
54:27Do it once. You just go, "Okay, you're
54:29feeling stressed. You're going on stage.
54:31You're waiting for a diagnosis. You're
54:32You don't feel You feel too alert
54:35relative to how you want to feel for
54:36whatever reason, good or bad. You're
54:38about to get married, right?" Whatever.
54:41You just
54:44>> [sighs]
54:44[gasps]
54:47>> until your lungs are empty.
54:49And it's immediate.
54:51And I For me, that was immensely
54:53gratifying. Yes, cuz it's fun to publish
54:55papers. We published it in cell reports,
54:56and Melis gets
54:58Let's the lion's share of the credit for
54:59that. There were other people on the
55:00paper, but she did so much hard work
55:02from that and analysis. I was so
55:04gratified because I'm like, "Oh,
55:05finally." Like, if I didn't sleep well
55:07or if I something stressful, even though
55:09I slept well, I could calm myself down
55:11like like that.
55:13I thought real-time tools for stress
55:16are what we all need. The interesting
55:18thing is that you can also raise your
55:21stress threshold. And a lot of the
55:22stress mitigation chapter is also about
55:24how to do that. We need to train for
55:27discomfort so that the little things
55:29don't feel so big.
55:30>> Yeah.
55:31>> This is also important in survival
55:32situations, right? You need to be able
55:34to think very clearly about what order
55:37of operations to take, what direction to
55:39escape through. This is not about like
55:42setting yourself to tolerate more pain
55:44and abuse. This is about the exact
55:46opposite. So, this is about safety. This
55:48is about self-protection. This is about
55:51noticing when you're when we're alert
55:52but calm, we can notice the subtle
55:55ripples in people around us, who needs
55:58our [clears throat] attention, who we
55:59really don't like,
56:01but we never really realized it. You can
56:03notice that stuff.
56:04>> A lot of people they wake up at like
56:052:00 3:00 a.m. in the morning.
56:06>> Yeah. In the middle of the night and
56:08they don't really know why, they don't
56:09know how to get back to bed, they start
56:10worrying and ruminating.
56:12>> Very, very common.
56:13>> Yeah, so what they can use this as a
56:15tool in that moment.
56:16>> Definitely. 10 long long deliberate
56:18exhales. There's also this really crazy
56:20trick that I put in the book has
56:21indirect scientific support. You want to
56:23like best way to fall back asleep, you
56:25want to hear this crazy This is so nuts.
56:27To fall asleep or to fall back asleep,
56:29you need to stop thinking about your
56:31body position.
56:33Turns out
56:34there's a direct relationship through a
56:36through a few steps, but there's a
56:37dedicated circuit, I should say, between
56:39your eyes, their movements,
56:42and your cerebellum, which is involved
56:44in proprioception and balance and a
56:45number of other things. We call We call
56:47the cerebellum the mini brain, but into
56:49this this guy back here.
56:51We really get nerdy at these
56:52hyperfoliated lobes back here. Foliates
56:55are just folds. It's just nerd speak for
56:56foldy bumpy. It's involved in balance.
56:59It's involved in
57:00learning.
57:01It's actually very important for
57:02generating and responding to the error
57:04signals between what you're trying to do
57:06and what you can do. That error signal
57:08turns out to be one of the most
57:10important things for generating
57:11learning.
57:12To make errors through genuine attempts,
57:14and your cerebellum is critical for
57:15that. It's also involved in timing. So,
57:17you need to kind of turn off your
57:21recognition of your own limbs to fall
57:22asleep.
57:24How do you do that? You know what works
57:26with babies? Walk back and forth at a
57:28particular pace, and this was defined in
57:30this Japanese study, and have people
57:32swing the baby back and forth just
57:33gently as they do it and the baby falls
57:35asleep. Guess what? Parents figure out
57:38the exact cadence with a very small
57:41margin of error through trial and error
57:43to figure out how to get their kid to
57:44sleep. It's like a natural experiment
57:46it's been looked at in the lab.
57:48Turns out when you rock back and forth,
57:51your eyes move.
57:53This is a very very ancient system that
57:55exists in all jawed animals including us
57:57that as we move through space walking,
57:59running, swimming, whatever, the world
58:00is gliding by what we call optic flow.
58:04You would see the world blurry.
58:06But you have a compensatory eye movement
58:09that unbeknownst to you because of a
58:11connection between your eyes and these
58:14brain stem areas whose names aren't
58:16important right now and your cerebellum
58:19creates a visual slip error and your
58:21eyes automatically offset that error. So
58:23when I go like this
58:26the world seems stable.
58:28And it turns out there's a pattern of
58:30eye movement that can shut down the
58:32proprioceptive circuits in the
58:33cerebellum. Make you forget your limb
58:36position.
58:37And it
58:39greatly facilitates the speed at which
58:41you fall back asleep.
58:43Okay, you're going to close your eyes.
58:45Great. You're going to move your eyes
58:47slowly to one side underneath your
58:49eyelids then to the other side.
58:51>> Uh-huh.
58:52>> Then up.
58:53Then down. Now you're going to move them
58:55counterclockwise in a circle-ish.
58:59And then clockwise in a circle-ish. And
59:00now still with your eyes closed, you're
59:02going to kind of point them towards your
59:03nostrils. You're not going to cross your
59:05eyes and you're going to do a long
59:06exhale.
59:09Great.
59:10That done two or three times generally
59:12has people waking up the next morning
59:14and like wild. What happened? What
59:17happened is your proprioceptive circuits
59:19are shut down. Now, that's kind of fun
59:21to do and you'll see and it costs
59:23nothing and it generally works. Some
59:25people if they're really really stressed
59:27it might not work, but this is what I do
59:28if I wake up in the middle of the night.
59:30I usually go to the bathroom, get back
59:32in bed, do long exhale breathing, and I
59:33do that, and I wake up the next morning.
59:35It really works well. So well, in fact,
59:38that there's a company based on
59:40work done from two MIT scientists,
59:43they have a sleep mask that generates
59:45this pattern of
59:47eye movements through a little electrode
59:50behind the ear. It just like
59:53and it stimulates the extraocular
59:54muscles in just the right patterns. And
59:56I tried it, and you fall right asleep.
59:58>> You're joking.
59:58>> No.
59:59And it monitors REM.
1:00:01>> Mhm.
1:00:02>> No, you know, we monitor REM through
1:00:03like an eight sleep or a Whoop or some
1:00:05other device
1:00:06through changes in heart rate and
1:00:08breathing. This is direct monitoring of
1:00:10REM.
1:00:12It's wild, and
1:00:14it can control your eye movements to
1:00:17induce more REM if you want more REM.
1:00:18There will be a time very soon, like
1:00:20within the next 12 to 14 months, when
1:00:22because of devices like the one they and
1:00:25others are making, when you're going to
1:00:26be able to say, "You know what? I want 2
1:00:28hours of deep sleep. I want 2 hours of
1:00:31REM across a 6-hour night cuz I can't
1:00:33afford to sleep my ration of eight, and
1:00:35you will be generating those eye
1:00:36movements during sleep in order to
1:00:39facilitate, not force, but facilitate
1:00:42those patterns of sleep."
1:00:44>> I've spent the last decade building and
1:00:46investing in companies, and so often the
1:00:48conversation around marketing budgets
1:00:49follows the exact same pattern. The
1:00:51budget gets approved, but then the
1:00:53results don't come back. And most of the
1:00:54time, the creative pitch and the offer
1:00:57is fine. The problem lies with the
1:00:59audience. Ads reach people who will
1:01:01never buy or refer, nor do they have the
1:01:04power to sign off anything at all. And
1:01:06this is why so much budget gets wasted.
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1:01:45I want to speak to the business owners
1:01:46listening and watching right now. I know
1:01:49what it's like to be personally
1:01:50responsible for every decision. I
1:01:51founded my first company at 21 years
1:01:53old, and honestly, the pressure can be
1:01:55immense. It's the kind of mental load
1:01:57that takes its toll below the surface. I
1:01:59recently did some tests through our
1:02:00sponsor, Function, which got me thinking
1:02:03about that invisible impact. I found
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1:02:13day. And that has totally changed how I
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1:02:46>> Did I hear you say that there's a
1:02:47peptide that can help your REM sleep?
1:02:49>> Yes, I have no affiliation to to it cuz
1:02:51um it's called pinealon. I I will tell
1:02:54you, in the book, I do not talk about
1:02:56hormone therapies, peptides, or
1:02:57psychedelics.
1:02:59The book is about what I know for sure.
1:03:02Hormones, peptide therapies, and
1:03:03psychedelics
1:03:04are at the front edge right now. I'm
1:03:06very much involved in
1:03:09looking at the research, talking to the
1:03:10people that are doing these things. And
1:03:11yes, I I dabble in these things, right?
1:03:13I'm very interested I experiment on
1:03:15myself, and I'm an adult, I can do that.
1:03:17So,
1:03:18pinealon is very interesting because
1:03:21I found that if I took a teeny bitty bit
1:03:24every third night, I tried this
1:03:26experiment for about a month,
1:03:27I got massive amounts of REM sleep that
1:03:29night, but also on subsequent nights. I
1:03:32hosted a Dr. Abid Bakri on my podcast,
1:03:35who's in my
1:03:37view is the most knowledgeable physician
1:03:40on the topic of peptides.
1:03:41>> Oh, I saw that episode. It's amazing.
1:03:43>> He's amazing. And I think you guys would
1:03:44have an even better conversation,
1:03:46frankly. But in any event,
1:03:48he tells me that pinealon is
1:03:51potentially involved. There are some
1:03:52data supporting its use for
1:03:54encouraging pinealocyte health, so the
1:03:56actual health of the pineal.
1:03:58>> Pineal gland.
1:03:59>> Yeah, the pineal gland, which makes
1:04:00melatonin and it does other things, too.
1:04:02So, I think pinealon is a great tool to
1:04:04use sporadically.
1:04:06I don't use it regularly. You know, as
1:04:08long as we're talking about peptides, I
1:04:09do think that there's I mean, I'm
1:04:11peptide curious. Is You know, I'm from
1:04:12the Bay Area. I'm peptide [laughter]
1:04:14curious. I've not tried any GLP-1s yet,
1:04:16but I'm getting curious about very, very
1:04:18low-dose tirzepatide or retatrutide.
1:04:20>> I'm peptide curious, but I'm scared.
1:04:23>> Yeah.
1:04:23>> I'm scared cuz I don't You've got to
1:04:25inject most of them, right?
1:04:27>> It's a tiny little thing, you know. Um
1:04:29>> What's your take on peptides as like a
1:04:31cat It's a big category, isn't it?
1:04:33Bloody everything seems to be a peptide
1:04:34these days.
1:04:34>> Here's my opinion. It will be popular
1:04:36with some people, unpopular with others,
1:04:38but
1:04:41obviously, as with hormone therapies or
1:04:43anything else or supplements, like
1:04:45sleep, hydration, sunlight, exercises,
1:04:47nutrition, like you need all that stuff.
1:04:49The behavioral tools are the foundation.
1:04:51Great things can happen when you build
1:04:53on a foundation.
1:04:55Okay things can happen when you build on
1:04:57non-foundation, but it doesn't last
1:04:58long. But the combination of the two can
1:05:00be pretty awesome, especially if
1:05:01somebody has the means and the interest.
1:05:03So,
1:05:04the GLP-1s
1:05:06>> Mhm.
1:05:07Which are the weight loss drugs?
1:05:07>> The weight loss drugs. I think
1:05:09retatrutide is amazing. It's not just a
1:05:11GLP-1, it also hits the glucagon and GIP
1:05:13pathway. This is the one that Lilly
1:05:15invested Eli Lilly invested hundreds of
1:05:17millions of dollars, if not more, into
1:05:19researching and it's
1:05:21went through phase three. People lost
1:05:221/3, approximately, of their body weight
1:05:25in about a year or so.
1:05:26>> Is that a Is that a good thing for
1:05:29everybody?
1:05:29>> No, so people what's happening is people
1:05:31are Okay, so the psychedelic
1:05:34community talked about microdosing.
1:05:37>> Mhm.
1:05:37>> That microdosing phrase has been now
1:05:40incorporated into GLPs and people
1:05:42realize they could bypass a lot of the
1:05:44side effects and the cost
1:05:47by microdosing GLPs. These are
1:05:49anecdotes, so I want to be clear and I'm
1:05:51not pushing peptides or selling
1:05:52peptides. I say quite comfortably, I
1:05:54have a friend who's very, very skeptical
1:05:56about anything that's not fully FDA
1:05:58approved. I don't want to hear about
1:05:59your biohacking nonsense, this kind of
1:06:01thing. But she has chronic fatigue
1:06:02syndrome.
1:06:03And she talked to me about like, what
1:06:05can I do? She's seen all these
1:06:06physicians. Mind you, these are
1:06:07physicians at Stanford, these are
1:06:08physicians at UCSF. Like, she's And
1:06:10she's a very smart, nuanced person.
1:06:14But she has a wall there.
1:06:16She started taking a very low very low
1:06:20dose of tirzepatide once every 10 days.
1:06:22>> And tirzepatide is
1:06:23>> It's one of the GLP drugs. So like, so
1:06:25we could talk about Mounjaro, Ozempic,
1:06:27but it's it's not
1:06:28it's not touching GIP or glucagon. It's
1:06:30mainly just
1:06:31increasing levels of of glucagon-like
1:06:33peptide,
1:06:35which is this thing that suppresses
1:06:36hunger and appetite, but also seems to
1:06:37lower inflammation. Yes, there are
1:06:39concerns about vision loss in people who
1:06:41have certain structural abnormalities of
1:06:43the eye. Yes, there are concerns about
1:06:44apathy if people take too much of them.
1:06:46You know, it seems to reduce alcohol
1:06:48craving for people that like alcohol and
1:06:50sugar craving more generally. And it can
1:06:52reduce craving for everything if you
1:06:54take enough of it.
1:06:55>> Yeah.
1:06:56>> Keep in mind these drugs are ramping up
1:06:57levels of GLP thousandfold or more.
1:07:01Thousandfold or more. The body has never
1:07:03seen this level of
1:07:05of glucagon-like peptide in the history
1:07:07of
1:07:08And remember this whole thing was
1:07:09discovered because a smart biologist was
1:07:11studying why Gila monsters, these
1:07:14reptiles that I think are ugly, he
1:07:15probably thinks they're beautiful, only
1:07:17have to eat a couple times a year. It's
1:07:18because they make a peptide called
1:07:20exendin, which turned out to be
1:07:21homologous to glucagon-like peptide 1 in
1:07:24humans.
1:07:25The reason these reptiles don't have to
1:07:26eat very often is cuz they always feel
1:07:28satiated. Why? Because they have very
1:07:30high levels of glucagon-like peptide
1:07:32circulating. We don't.
1:07:34And it works through two mechanisms.
1:07:36Tells the brain
1:07:38mechanisms for satiety to ramp up their
1:07:40activity, and so your brain is telling
1:07:41you, "I don't really want food." And it
1:07:43also makes people feel full, which is
1:07:45the basis of some of the side effects of
1:07:46nausea and other things. So, she will
1:07:49tell you, "Oh my god, my energy's back.
1:07:51My inflammation markers are way lower. I
1:07:54I'm not cured, but I feel so much
1:07:56better." Very, very hard to dispute that
1:07:58kind of experience if you're the
1:08:00patient. We can talk about safety and
1:08:02sourcing and you know, etc., but
1:08:05Anyway, so people are starting to
1:08:07realize they can microdose stuff, but
1:08:09you won't see randomized control trials
1:08:11that are going to push this kind of
1:08:12notion. You can tell it's terrible for
1:08:14business, right? So, then there are
1:08:16things like pinealon for sleep, epitalon
1:08:19perhaps for DNA repair. I haven't
1:08:21dabbled with that one yet. And then
1:08:23there are the so-called growth hormone
1:08:24secretagogues. So, we're talking about
1:08:26tesamorelin, ipamorelin, CJC-1295.
1:08:30These will promote more growth hormone
1:08:32release in sleep. They will have a
1:08:35negative feedback
1:08:37effect where they're going to shut down
1:08:38some of your own production.
1:08:40And people get a bit leaner, and they
1:08:41claim their deep sleep is better, and it
1:08:44can increase insulin sensitivity. I'll
1:08:46tell you, I've tried sermorelin, I've
1:08:47tried a few of these other ones. They
1:08:49nuke my REM sleep. They give me a ton of
1:08:51deep sleep. I don't like them. I've
1:08:53tried pinealon, I'll take it now and
1:08:55again. I don't do it right now.
1:08:57And BPC is the one that gets everybody
1:08:59talking because body protection compound
1:09:00157 is made in the gut.
1:09:03People claim, and I do think their
1:09:05claims are accurate, that they feel
1:09:08Notice what I said right there is they
1:09:09feel as if their recovery from injury
1:09:11was accelerated, and I believe them
1:09:14because I've spent a lot of time with
1:09:15the animal data.
1:09:16Whether it's an Achilles tendon
1:09:18transection or nerve regrowth or or
1:09:20tendon or ligament regrowth and vascular
1:09:23Yes, it does seem to accelerate healing
1:09:24across the board, but the concern is you
1:09:26could vascularize tumors. Now,
1:09:29would I take it? No, I don't have an
1:09:30injury right now. I don't have any
1:09:32reason to take it. So, I don't think
1:09:34people should say, "Should I take
1:09:35peptides?" You should ask, "What effect
1:09:37in your life are you trying to achieve?"
1:09:39Right? And then, maybe BPC makes sense,
1:09:42maybe it doesn't. You're not going to
1:09:44find many clinical trials on it. It has
1:09:46a very, very high, maybe infinite, you
1:09:48know, LD50, meaning no one has really
1:09:51figured out how much can kill you, but
1:09:53that's not a good kind of way to run
1:09:54your life. And
1:09:57you know, it's somewhere between a drug
1:09:59and a supplement.
1:10:00>> I think this is one of the concerns or
1:10:01one of the conversations I often hear
1:10:03around GLP-1s at the moment is that
1:10:04they've just not been long around long
1:10:06enough for us to know the side effect
1:10:07profile over a long period of time. Is
1:10:09there any truth to that?
1:10:11>> Well, do you want to be in the
1:10:12experiment or out of the You want to be
1:10:14in the control group or you want to be
1:10:15in the experimental group? Well, for
1:10:16somebody who has like serious obesity
1:10:18issues, the tirzepatides and monjaros
1:10:21and ozempics and retatrutide could
1:10:23potentially save their life, okay?
1:10:26Vision loss is a serious consideration.
1:10:28Although, I'll go on record
1:10:30You know,
1:10:31vision is my home, and
1:10:34I'll just be direct. I don't tap dance
1:10:35at all, and I'm not trying to start any
1:10:36battles, and David and I can talk about
1:10:38it uh directly. David Sinclair recently
1:10:40went on Rogan and said, you know, the
1:10:42amount of of blindness caused by GLP-1s
1:10:44has doubled, which scared everybody.
1:10:47>> I heard that.
1:10:47>> But, there's a structural abnormality in
1:10:49the eye of a subset of people for whom
1:10:51that's true. And it's a great idea to
1:10:53get your eye scanned, but yeah, so as
1:10:55the
1:10:55>> Ah, comes apart?
1:10:56>> Yeah. Oh, man, this is fun. It's a thing
1:10:58you only come on here every once in a
1:10:59while cuz I do this I'll do this all day
1:11:01every day. So, you know, light obviously
1:11:03comes in and you got that cornea on the
1:11:04outside of the eye and the lens focuses
1:11:07the the light onto your retina, which is
1:11:08this
1:11:10pie crust like structure that lines the
1:11:12back of your eyes. It's an amazing
1:11:14structure. You know, three cell layers
1:11:16thick.
1:11:17Catches light.
1:11:19Absorbs light. The photoreceptors turn
1:11:21that into electricity
1:11:23through phototransduction, amazing. Then
1:11:25that electricity is cast forward to a
1:11:28set of cells that line the inner part of
1:11:30the retina that we call retinal ganglion
1:11:31cells and then they send their wires,
1:11:33their so-called axons, out the optic
1:11:35nerve into your brain. They course along
1:11:37the bottom of the brain and they enter
1:11:38your brain
1:11:40including your
1:11:41circadian clock.
1:11:43You get vision. You get sleep-wake
1:11:45rhythms. You get hormone regulation by
1:11:47light. You get It's just incredible.
1:11:49Well, where they exit the eye is called
1:11:51the optic nerve head.
1:11:53And
1:11:53if the optic nerve head is a nice nicely
1:11:56shaped and sized tube for them to exit,
1:11:58great. Too big, that's not good.
1:12:01But too tight's not good either cuz
1:12:02those wires get pinched off.
1:12:04This is part of what happens in the
1:12:06disease glaucoma, which is the eye
1:12:08pressure goes up and those axons die
1:12:10away, these cells die away and people
1:12:12It's the second leading cause of
1:12:13blindness in the world. So, in some
1:12:15people who have a structural abnormality
1:12:18a structural feature of the optic nerve
1:12:21head here where these these wires leave
1:12:23the eye, it does seem that the GLP's put
1:12:26them at greater risk for causing some
1:12:28cinching off of those
1:12:30of those cells and and there have been
1:12:31cases of blindness. But the thing that
1:12:33wasn't really cool, David, is this. He
1:12:37is developing some very potentially
1:12:39impressive tools to rescue vision in
1:12:42glaucoma, etc.
1:12:44But meanwhile, GLP's are not making many
1:12:46people go blind, okay? You know, that's
1:12:48about as true as masturbation is making
1:12:50people go blind.
1:12:52I'm not saying you should do either one.
1:12:54That's your personal choice.
1:12:56But the point here is that he scared the
1:12:59daylights out of people.
1:13:00Pun intended.
1:13:03Telling them that they can make you go
1:13:04blind. But everyone should get this area
1:13:06of their eye image and it turns out it's
1:13:08very easy. You can go to your
1:13:09ophthalmologist or optometrist, ask for
1:13:11an eye pressure test. Usually insurance
1:13:13covers it, but definitely worth paying
1:13:15for.
1:13:16>> That was number five.
1:13:17>> Ha. Number six. We got into peptides,
1:13:19yeah.
1:13:19>> Yeah, we've done a couple
1:13:20>> I think we're not talking about
1:13:20psychedelics. We'll do that another
1:13:22time. We won't do them another time. Um
1:13:24I don't do psychedelics publicly.
1:13:26>> I'm open-minded. I did DMT. Look, I
1:13:28don't care.
1:13:28>> Not as open-minded as you and me if we
1:13:29do psychedelics. You know I'm kidding.
1:13:31Uh you you took DMT?
1:13:33>> In a far away land where it was very
1:13:35legal. Cuz you know, I sit here and talk
1:13:36about these things and psychedelics. And
1:13:38I actually did work in a psychedelics
1:13:39company for about a year. But it was
1:13:40deeply, deeply fascinating. And I The
1:13:42reason I was compelled by it is
1:13:44the efficacy as it relates to mental
1:13:46health. And the studies being done out
1:13:47of London
1:13:48around things like you know, psilocybin
1:13:50and ibogaine and DMT treatments. And I
1:13:53just thought, "Wow, you know, it's
1:13:54unbelievable some of the clinical data.
1:13:56I'd love to learn more." So I did a
1:13:57yeah, psilocybin and then I did a DMT.
1:14:00And it was really just
1:14:01>> I've not done DMT.
1:14:03>> You've never done DMT?
1:14:04>> No, no. I've I've done um clinical
1:14:07um MDMA and psilocybin. I think I'm done
1:14:10with that. Not because I had a negative
1:14:11experience, but I got what I wanted out
1:14:13of it. And um I found it to be immensely
1:14:15beneficial.
1:14:16>> Psilocybin or
1:14:17>> The combination of therapy going in,
1:14:19therapy during, and therapy coming out
1:14:21of of combination MDMA psilocybin.
1:14:23>> Uh Do you know what? It It's one of the
1:14:25things that made me think a lot about
1:14:27religion.
1:14:27>> Mhm.
1:14:28>> [clears throat]
1:14:28>> Was having a DMT experience where what I
1:14:31experienced felt indistinguishable from
1:14:32this reality in terms of the vividness
1:14:34and the the realness of it. And me just
1:14:36pondering this this concept that a tiny
1:14:39little inhale of smoke could completely
1:14:41change my material reality. So therefore
1:14:44I concluded that my material reality is
1:14:47is literally but I mean tell me if my
1:14:49logic's wrong is a small amount of
1:14:51chemicals
1:14:53being uninterrupted.
1:14:54Does that Does that make logical sense
1:14:55to
1:14:55>> Yeah, so
1:14:57I think about this way too much. I guess
1:14:58we are going to talk about psychedelics,
1:14:59reality, [laughter] and religion. Um
1:15:01couple short statements about this. Uh
1:15:03you I'm fascinated by this so I'd love
1:15:05to hear you talk more about it, but here
1:15:06are a couple ways that I think about it
1:15:09in a non um dismissive way.
1:15:12Most all of biology is just
1:15:15compartmentalized chemistry.
1:15:17So whether or not it's the flow of
1:15:19electricity along neural circuits to
1:15:20generate tenacity, for instance, or
1:15:22learning, you're just guiding chemistry
1:15:24in particular ways, okay? That's not a
1:15:26way to trivialize it. It's kind of way
1:15:27to think about it.
1:15:29There are two ways that you can change
1:15:31brain function, behavior, and chemistry.
1:15:34One is mechanical.
1:15:36I can breathe differently.
1:15:39I can get a massage, right? I could poke
1:15:41myself with a knife, okay? So there are
1:15:43mechanical forces that change our
1:15:46physiology. And then there are chemical
1:15:47forces. Pharmacology, things we eat, and
1:15:50chemicals within us, serotonin, etc.
1:15:52That's really it. There's no other
1:15:54thing.
1:15:55In many ways you're absolutely right.
1:15:57It's compartmentalized chemistry and
1:15:59mechanics and other chemicals are what
1:16:01control that chemistry.
1:16:03And
1:16:04I think organizing one's thoughts
1:16:07sometimes in that way can be helpful cuz
1:16:09you realize the stress response it is
1:16:11really just a bunch of chemicals
1:16:12happening in certain places and so on.
1:16:15I personally am intrigued about the idea
1:16:18of things outside of our
1:16:20conscious understanding in biology that
1:16:22maybe things like DMT give us access to
1:16:24or maybe just prayer gives us access to
1:16:27or faith gives us access to. And it
1:16:29comes from
1:16:30my recognition both as a neuroscientist
1:16:32and just a human who's been alive for 50
1:16:35years and some change that
1:16:37our biology and psychology, let's mold
1:16:41those together. Are
1:16:43extraordinarily good at accomplishing
1:16:46certain things.
1:16:48But there are certain things that are
1:16:50outside
1:16:52the abilities of our psychology and
1:16:55biology. And if we
1:16:57are asking our psychology and biology to
1:17:01satisfy something that our psychology
1:17:03and biology simply cannot satisfy,
1:17:06we're going to miss out on a lot of
1:17:08potential meaning in life. And what I To
1:17:11be very direct about it, like at the
1:17:12point where I decide to really embrace
1:17:14the idea of faith, of a God, right? That
1:17:17there are powers outside of human
1:17:19understanding
1:17:21that can be very useful.
1:17:24Everything got better.
1:17:26It it relieved me of the pressure to
1:17:28control everything internally and
1:17:30externally. And I find it not just
1:17:32intriguing, but absolutely
1:17:35captivating that
1:17:38a force outside of us,
1:17:40some people call it God, the universe,
1:17:42right? Some people
1:17:44might think it's Jesus, some people
1:17:45might think it's something else,
1:17:47might actually hold some
1:17:50power in how we could potentially
1:17:53behave, be better, be Wouldn't it be
1:17:55wonderful if there's this thing planted
1:17:57in us, or some of us, which is a
1:17:59question, about things outside of us
1:18:02that if we were to embrace,
1:18:04could allow us to get to a better place
1:18:06as a species. Why would we think that a
1:18:09technology like AI would do that? AI is
1:18:11wonderful, but why would we think that
1:18:12it would come from computers? That's of
1:18:14us, right? Why would we think it would
1:18:16come from anything that humans and only
1:18:18humans could do? To me, the embracing
1:18:21the notion of a God and having faith,
1:18:22which by the way is about having doubt,
1:18:25but still doing the the things, the
1:18:27practices, prayer,
1:18:29is like to me one of the most liberating
1:18:32and educating
1:18:34thing, not just about
1:18:36stuff of God and the universe, but about
1:18:39the human brain.
1:18:40>> Okay, I've got some questions.
1:18:41>> Yeah, I mean it's like we're not meant
1:18:43to solve this on our own.
1:18:45>> Do you believe in God?
1:18:46>> Absolutely.
1:18:47>> When did God come into your life?
1:18:50>> Very early, but I was very
1:18:54good at suppressing the notion that it
1:18:56was real.
1:18:58Like I would pray in private.
1:19:00I would hide it. And um and not just in
1:19:03bad times.
1:19:04And then
1:19:05I think I lived enough and observed
1:19:07enough hardship. We've talked about some
1:19:09of this on a previous podcast. I talked
1:19:10a little bit about that in the book, but
1:19:12but I observed it out there, too, not
1:19:14just in my own life.
1:19:16That I I started to realize, especially
1:19:18if you stick your hands in enough
1:19:19brains,
1:19:20and you see my good friend Eddie Chang
1:19:22record from the brain of a awake human
1:19:25and remove a tumor and save that
1:19:27person's life, and you also realize that
1:19:30brain areas are controlling things cuz
1:19:31when they're stimulated, that person
1:19:33feels and responds in a certain way, you
1:19:35realize that we're not all meat and
1:19:36potatoes in there. There's something
1:19:40else.
1:19:41But I'm not sure that it all comes from
1:19:43us. It's It's sort of hard to explain.
1:19:45The The best way I kind of wiggle out of
1:19:47this
1:19:48is that I I brought my dad on my
1:19:50podcast.
1:19:51My dad and I for many years had a choppy
1:19:53relationship. We have a great
1:19:54relationship now. He's 83 years old.
1:19:56He's super
1:19:57vigorous. He loves ideas. He's into
1:20:00quantum you know, quantum computing and
1:20:03he's
1:20:04theoretical physicist, right?
1:20:06And
1:20:07I asked him to explain quantum
1:20:08mechanics. I go, "Hey, like tell my
1:20:09audience how relativity works." He
1:20:11worked on chaos theory, okay? Tell us
1:20:13how chaos works. And he said,
1:20:15"I'll do that, but you have to
1:20:17understand that one of the most
1:20:18important things about understanding
1:20:20quantum mechanics
1:20:22is that early on you are told and you
1:20:24learn that
1:20:25the human brain can't wrap its head
1:20:27around quantum mechanics with logic,
1:20:30with the with human understanding. You
1:20:31have to rely on the math.
1:20:33And he says, "Anyone who talks about the
1:20:35quantum field, who can't show you the
1:20:37math, can't show you the proofs, is
1:20:38lying." He loves it when people are
1:20:40like, "Oh, the quantum this and the
1:20:41quantum that." It's often is in like the
1:20:43a meditative communities, but others,
1:20:44too. And he goes, "People throw this
1:20:46word around because very few people
1:20:47under actually understand quantum
1:20:48biology. There's gaps in There's a some
1:20:51logic, but there's gaps in their logic
1:20:52that the math doesn't line up with. And
1:20:54the math doesn't lie. So, what he was
1:20:57saying we're having a discussion about
1:20:59God, and he said, "Yeah, at some point,
1:21:01if you're going to have faith in a
1:21:03higher power, God, you have to depart
1:21:06this notion that your logical brain can
1:21:07go from A to B to C, and boom, you're
1:21:10there. But in quantum mechanics, it's
1:21:12the same thing. But on the basis of
1:21:14quantum mechanics, you can build stuff.
1:21:16You can engineer stuff in the real
1:21:18world, like that red light, or a rocket.
1:21:21>> Are you saying but you don't know all of
1:21:23this
1:21:23>> There's no math to prove this thing that
1:21:26I call my
1:21:28the existence of God. There's no math,
1:21:30and it's not worth torturing yourself
1:21:32over. What I believe is worth torturing
1:21:35yourself over,
1:21:36and there's also great beauty in there,
1:21:38is embracing the practice of prayer,
1:21:41embracing the questions, and the like
1:21:43opening the aperture of your beliefs
1:21:45just for a moment, going, "Maybe I'm
1:21:46going to just believe in God for 10
1:21:48seconds. See what that's like." And I
1:21:50started to experience beauty and
1:21:53experience
1:21:54um
1:21:54peace around not trying to control
1:21:57things that obviously were not under my
1:21:59control, not just within me, but in
1:22:00other people, and I really started to
1:22:02see what I could only describe as
1:22:04miracles. And by miracles, I mean
1:22:08I would pray for some indication of what
1:22:11the right path might be on something,
1:22:13where it wasn't clear to me. And then
1:22:16two or three days later, something would
1:22:18happen which would like
1:22:20seem almost completely unrelated, and
1:22:22the answer would come in that thing. And
1:22:24then I just locked in. I'm like,
1:22:25"Listen, I'm a disciplined guy when I
1:22:27really want to be. I'm going to pray
1:22:29every night before I go to sleep. If I
1:22:31fall asleep, I'll get out of bed and
1:22:32pray when I if I wake up in the middle
1:22:34of the night. I've not missed a night in
1:22:35nearly 3 years." I was recently invited
1:22:37up to Stanford to give a talk with
1:22:39Arthur Brooks, who's a lifetime
1:22:40Catholic. He's in mass every morning,
1:22:42you know, he and I have very different
1:22:44experiences of God and religion. My
1:22:45family was mixed religion. I got to sit
1:22:48up there and just say, "Listen, I'm
1:22:49going to tell you that I for sure am the
1:22:51person who's least knowledgeable, least
1:22:54versed in this room. But, what I can
1:22:56tell you is my experience with prayer.
1:22:58What I can tell you is
1:23:00what I've observed in myself when I open
1:23:04the aperture for faith.
1:23:06The reason I did that talk is because
1:23:07our former director of neurosciences at
1:23:09Stanford
1:23:10um had written to me and said, "I think
1:23:12you should consider talking to this
1:23:13group." And he did some of the most
1:23:15important experiments
1:23:16in the history of neuroscience linking
1:23:18neuronal activity to perception. He
1:23:20really showed that if you stimulate
1:23:22certain brain areas, people perceive
1:23:23things a certain way regardless of
1:23:24what's happening out in the world.
1:23:26>> Mhm.
1:23:26>> Like, there's a brain area I could
1:23:27trigger right now and I could show you a
1:23:29movie
1:23:30of a bunch of dots moving up and
1:23:31everyone here would be like, "They're
1:23:32moving up." And if I tickled the right
1:23:34neuron in your brain,
1:23:36you'd say, "They're going down."
1:23:37>> Mhm.
1:23:38>> And I'm like, "That's wild." I turn it
1:23:39off and you'd say, "Oh, yeah, of course
1:23:40they're going up." Your
1:23:42understanding of the world is an
1:23:43abstraction
1:23:45that occurs inside your skull on the
1:23:47basis of photons that come in through
1:23:48your eyes, sound waves that hit your
1:23:51ears, mechanical forces that hit your
1:23:52skin, and chemicals that go in your
1:23:54nostrils and in your mouth, and then you
1:23:56create
1:23:58you abstract reality in here.
1:24:01Now, the laws of physics dictate how
1:24:04those things, like photons have
1:24:06properties, sound waves have properties,
1:24:08and those are converted, they're
1:24:09transformed into signals, but then you
1:24:12abstract the world with enough accuracy
1:24:13so I can pick up this pen, okay,
1:24:16and not miss it.
1:24:18At least for now. So,
1:24:21if you understand neuroscience that way,
1:24:24and then you go, "We don't see infrared
1:24:26in this room because we don't have the
1:24:27sensors, but a pit viper does." Does
1:24:30that mean that there's a god?
1:24:32No, not necessarily. That alone doesn't
1:24:35prove that. But, what it does prove is
1:24:37that we only have access to the physical
1:24:41events in the world that we have the
1:24:43filters within us to extract, which is a
1:24:46kind of mealy-mouthed way of saying
1:24:49you can't
1:24:50see it cuz you can't see it. You don't
1:24:53have the sensors. You can throw on
1:24:54infrared goggles, and then you can see
1:24:56it, but that's a technology. There I
1:24:58don't think there will ever be the god
1:24:59goggles.
1:25:00The emotional goggles, so to speak, come
1:25:02from this thing that we call faith.
1:25:04Faith is the infrared
1:25:07goggles of of human understanding about
1:25:10why we're here. And the the challenge
1:25:12for people is I feel like people come in
1:25:14three categories. They they either, at
1:25:16least three, they either would force
1:25:18religion in a bad way, so they hate it.
1:25:21They never had access to it in a way
1:25:24that made them gently pulled toward it,
1:25:26or, you know, they were like it was like
1:25:28people knocking on their door, it felt
1:25:29like a disturbance. And I, you know, I'm
1:25:31not against proselytizing if it's done
1:25:33kindly and with, you know, delicately.
1:25:36Or they're absolutely convinced that it
1:25:39can't be, which I look at as sort of a
1:25:40spiritual anorexia. You know, there are
1:25:42regions of the brain that when
1:25:43stimulated, people get a god-like
1:25:45experience the experience of god, not as
1:25:48themselves, but they feel it. You have
1:25:51And so, people have said, "Oh, well,
1:25:52then there's a god region of the brain,
1:25:53and it's just a brain region. It's just
1:25:55a brain region. That can't be."
1:25:57But, we have brain regions
1:25:59Arthur says this much more eloquently
1:26:01than I could. There are brain regions
1:26:02for thirst,
1:26:04which, in the philosophical
1:26:07way, again, this is coming from him, not
1:26:09me, would say, "Well, that proves the
1:26:11existence of water."
1:26:13The thirst proves the existence of
1:26:15water, right? So, I have a thirst
1:26:18circuit for
1:26:20gaining understanding of this thing that
1:26:22we call life
1:26:24and whatever comes after it. And in that
1:26:27thirst,
1:26:28I decided to open the aperture to the
1:26:30idea that it's that the thing, the
1:26:33stimulus, the water,
1:26:35the photons, I'm not able to extract
1:26:37that through thought,
1:26:39through my eyes, through my ears.
1:26:43Just like my dad couldn't come to
1:26:45understand quantum mechanics by thinking
1:26:46really hard about it. You have to do the
1:26:48math. And there are gaps in the in my
1:26:50reasoning here. Like it's not a perfect
1:26:52one-to-one.
1:26:53But also, life's just so much better,
1:26:54man.
1:26:55I don't think anxiety sticks in us very
1:26:57long if we we're feeling anxious, you
1:26:59you pray, God, please, like, help me
1:27:01remove Help me remove this. It's not do
1:27:03this for me. It's help me
1:27:06put energy in me to do the right things
1:27:08today. Put energy in me to serve people.
1:27:10I prayed before I came in here.
1:27:12>> Really? On
1:27:13>> on my knees before every podcast,
1:27:16guest or host, I prayed. I prayed for
1:27:19I just said, please help me move my ego
1:27:21out of the room.
1:27:22We all have an ego.
1:27:24Help me move my ego out of the room. I I
1:27:25would hope that people could learn
1:27:27useful information that might help them
1:27:28and that they would propagate that
1:27:29information.
1:27:31Please make sure that I maintain
1:27:33humility, maintain like help me help me
1:27:36strive for clarity.
1:27:38And
1:27:39I also said, and help Stephen and I
1:27:42do something that we're not predicting
1:27:44that would happen, but you want us to
1:27:45happen that we don't understand. And
1:27:47maybe that's this part of the
1:27:48conversation, right? [laughter] Like,
1:27:50you know, I don't know. And the point is
1:27:52not to know. It's also fun as a
1:27:54scientist who loves mechanisms and cells
1:27:55and circuits and neuromodulators. And
1:27:57it's enriching to have a part of life
1:27:59that like
1:28:00I can just
1:28:02explore in. Like, it's I like mysteries.
1:28:06Like, science is about mysteries and
1:28:07it's about solving mysteries, but it's
1:28:09also about being in awe of the the
1:28:11mystery. And um
1:28:13I'm all in, man. I mean, I'm different
1:28:15all in than
1:28:18other people talk about being all in.
1:28:20And I don't tell people what to do
1:28:22morally. I'm I'm really just trying to
1:28:23navigate my own my own path. But it is a
1:28:27it it's like one of the best things that
1:28:29ever happened to me. It's so liberating,
1:28:31and life is still plenty hard.
1:28:33But I love it.
1:28:35>> It seems to be an answer that a lot of
1:28:37people are reaching for now based on the
1:28:39way that we've kind of designed our
1:28:40lives over the last couple of decades.
1:28:41This sort of individualism, the
1:28:43loneliness, the I don't know, nihilism,
1:28:45the me me me, the material success, the
1:28:49you could say like low-level narcissism
1:28:51of being on social media and
1:28:54trying to get as many followers as you
1:28:55can and we've become islands.
1:28:58And I I've been thinking a lot about
1:29:00this idea of like God and meaning
1:29:01because it does appear to me that we are
1:29:04meant to be like
1:29:06anchored to, you know, ourselves and our
1:29:09family and then like I don't know, our
1:29:11community and then maybe our city and
1:29:12then maybe our country and then maybe
1:29:14the planet and then something above.
1:29:16>> I mean, you're an ambitious guy. Go
1:29:17bigger, man. I'm not trying to push you
1:29:19like
1:29:19>> No, no, please.
1:29:20>> Bigger the biggest thing is like the the
1:29:23is a non-human force in the universe
1:29:27that wants goodness
1:29:29and can exemplify perfection.
1:29:32And you and I, if I may, by virtue of
1:29:35being human, by virtue of having
1:29:36circuits that I mean, the famous studies
1:29:39like people get to stimulate different
1:29:41areas of the brain. You know the area
1:29:42that people like to stimulate a lot? The
1:29:44area that generates frustration and
1:29:45anger, that arousal. I saw that result
1:29:48and I was like, "Oh man, that's
1:29:49disappointing." Why not beauty,
1:29:51giddy-ness, or even feelings of being
1:29:53drunk? Though they found that, too, but
1:29:54they were not as interested in that. You
1:29:56go, "Are we bad?" No, we're not bad. We
1:29:58we are wired with an animal part of our
1:30:01brain and we are wired with a conscious
1:30:03thoughtful part of our brain. And it's a
1:30:05lot of work
1:30:07to ascend, I know that word is like it
1:30:10in the looks maxing thing now, but like
1:30:13it's a
1:30:13to ascend as a human to a place where
1:30:17you're living in a controlled and
1:30:19thoughtful and peaceful way with
1:30:22yourself and with your pursuits and
1:30:24you're putting trying striving to put
1:30:26goodness in the world and take care of
1:30:28people and
1:30:29and to do that uh
1:30:31with a little less friction. I know from
1:30:34experience that comes from
1:30:36trying not to control every aspect of
1:30:39every process. And somehow everything
1:30:40just goes much better. So,
1:30:43you know, I
1:30:44people will be like, "Oh, he really
1:30:45drank the Kool-Aid." Like,
1:30:47I don't know. I I actually think that
1:30:49this was pumping in my veins from go.
1:30:52Yes, I worked on a lot of topics. Um
1:30:54stress, vision, etc. But I studied
1:30:55neural development for a long time and
1:30:58you know, sperm meets egg and cells
1:31:02start dividing and you get a human.
1:31:04And um
1:31:06yes, we understand induction factors. I
1:31:08teach developmental neurobiology, cell
1:31:09migration, axon guidance, you know,
1:31:11mesoderm, ectoderm, etc.
1:31:14Great.
1:31:15Like,
1:31:17compartmentalized chemistry can give you
1:31:19a human.
1:31:20But there are gaps in our understanding
1:31:23and there's magic in that orchestration
1:31:27that goes beyond what the science can
1:31:29even begin to understand. And it's
1:31:33nothing short of spectacular. You just
1:31:35like
1:31:36Also, who doesn't want more awe in their
1:31:38life? It's like Dr. Keltner is like the
1:31:41the awe guy at Berkeley. Like, he said,
1:31:42"Yeah, awe is when you go from small
1:31:45aperture to big aperture and from big
1:31:47aperture to small aperture. That
1:31:48transition induces awe and you can hear
1:31:50it in sound, too. Like, when you walk in
1:31:52off the street and you go into
1:31:54like, Stanford has this incredible
1:31:56church. Memorial Church is
1:31:58unbelievably beautiful with this giant
1:32:00organ. And you walk in there and people
1:32:02change. Not just because it's a you like
1:32:05there's this the high ceiling and you're
1:32:06like, "Wow. Like, this is incredible."
1:32:09Of course I know humans made it. Like,
1:32:10I'm not an idiot, but
1:32:13day aperture to
1:32:16holy aperture. The like these and you
1:32:19can get this other ways, right? I'm not
1:32:20saying you can't get this other ways,
1:32:21but I like the idea that if we dial out
1:32:24really far
1:32:26that there's something much greater than
1:32:28us. And and I don't know what it exactly
1:32:30what form it takes or exactly what shape
1:32:32it takes or exactly what ways that it um
1:32:36God would exert
1:32:38uh influence over our minds, but
1:32:41>> You don't need to.
1:32:42>> You don't need to.
1:32:43>> This is the thing that I have to I think
1:32:44I have to come to terms with is I I go,
1:32:47"Okay, this is really interesting.
1:32:48There's lots of meaning and benefits to
1:32:50my life." You know, if we're just
1:32:51thinking about benefits, right? And then
1:32:53I go, "Okay, so which which which Bible
1:32:55have I got to believe?"
1:32:56And then I start looking at the Bibles
1:32:57and I'm like, "Okay, Noah's Ark."
1:32:59>> Look at a bunch of them. I think one
1:33:00will call to you more than the others.
1:33:02Listen, it may end up being atheism for
1:33:04some people, but when I said
1:33:06when I said spiritual anorexia earlier,
1:33:09anorexia is the most deadly of the
1:33:10psychiatric illnesses.
1:33:12It's like it's incredibly deadly and
1:33:15it's a
1:33:16something happens to the neural circuits
1:33:18where people with true anorexia
1:33:21feel reward some sort of sense of
1:33:23{quote} reinforcement is better than
1:33:25reward. Reinforcement from avoiding food
1:33:27as opposed to eating it. So, that's very
1:33:29like runs against our evolution
1:33:32as a species, right? And our health.
1:33:34But,
1:33:35the desire for food, as Arthur would
1:33:38say, proves the existence of food,
1:33:40right? Desire of thirst proves the
1:33:42existence of water. And
1:33:44there are atheists who are like, "Yeah,
1:33:46I don't need it. Not for me." And then
1:33:47there are atheists who are who have a
1:33:48kind of spiritual anorexia. It's almost
1:33:51like they get their spirituality is not
1:33:53believing in a God. And I look at them
1:33:55and I go, "Well, you're kind of on the
1:33:57like the same like extreme. It's almost
1:33:59like it wraps around so far that you you
1:34:01the the truly religious people and the
1:34:03atheist kind of meet right here. They
1:34:04both have the same sort of thing, but
1:34:05there's kind of an inversion of the
1:34:07circuit right there. And so, I don't
1:34:09know. Someone will work out the
1:34:10neuroscience or not. I'm going to keep
1:34:13praying because my life is that much
1:34:14better.
1:34:15>> When you when I heard you talk about it,
1:34:16I started praying a little bit.
1:34:18>> Oh, right on.
1:34:18>> Not all the time, but there there's
1:34:20several moments where I thought, do you
1:34:22know now would be a good time to just
1:34:23pray. Cuz I don't
1:34:25Someone like you saying that you do it
1:34:27gives a lot of other people permission
1:34:29to try. And to investigate for
1:34:31themselves because, you know,
1:34:34like if I'm in the Huberman camp, maybe
1:34:35I'm someone that really cares about
1:34:36scientific rigor and precision. And And
1:34:38then if you were if you that if you
1:34:39change that camp to also be open-minded
1:34:42to spirituality and religion and these
1:34:44sort of other pursuits,
1:34:45I can still
1:34:47>> [laughter]
1:34:47>> be sort of ideologically who I believe I
1:34:49am while also investigating these other
1:34:51things. So, when I it was really
1:34:53impactful for me to hear you talk about
1:34:54prayer because it impacted my
1:34:56it gave me permission, I should say, at
1:34:58some weird level to also investigate.
1:35:00And yeah, like I report the same
1:35:02findings as you that
1:35:04helps. [laughter]
1:35:05>> Yeah, it helped. My former chair and
1:35:07director of neurosciences at Stanford
1:35:09who encouraged me to do that talk at
1:35:10Veritas where I mostly talked about how
1:35:13ignorant and naive I am on these topics.
1:35:16He's a brilliant neuroscientist. He has
1:35:19faith.
1:35:20And I respect him and I respect his
1:35:21mind. I also think there's maybe a kind
1:35:24of fun analogy here that just came to
1:35:25mind. You know, it happens in every
1:35:27dimension like audience and podcasters
1:35:29or but this happened during the pandemic
1:35:32with the with the health community and
1:35:33we're seeing that the long tail of that
1:35:35now, but
1:35:36you know, when you're a kid, you think
1:35:37your parents are everything. You think
1:35:39they can do no wrong. And then there's
1:35:41this thing called being an adolescent
1:35:43teenager and you catch them doing like
1:35:45lying or saying things occasionally or
1:35:48doing things. You go, wait, you said
1:35:49that and And and like this and all of a
1:35:51sudden you're like
1:35:53you don't know anything.
1:35:55Then you gain some hopefully some agency
1:35:58and some velocity in life and you get to
1:36:00this point where you think you know
1:36:02everything and you accept that they
1:36:03don't but you're really the one that
1:36:05understands.
1:36:08I think that as adults we eventually get
1:36:11to the place after that where we go
1:36:13wait, it's outside of me. I'm going to
1:36:15look outside of me and then you go no,
1:36:17every like all these adults we were all
1:36:19they went through it and we went through
1:36:20it and the real like
1:36:22is going oh wait, no no no, I'm looking
1:36:24at humans for something that doesn't
1:36:25isn't going to come from human beings.
1:36:27We're all flawed. We're all all
1:36:30imperfect. And so that the notion, the
1:36:32belief that there's
1:36:34that perfection exists outside us and
1:36:37that we can strive for certain things
1:36:39through works, through practices.
1:36:42That's not just compelling, that's just
1:36:44like downright fantastic to me because
1:36:47it you would fully embrace the
1:36:50the woes and the the beauty of being
1:36:53human.
1:36:54In embracing God it's kind of a weird
1:36:56thing. So, listen more power to the
1:36:57atheist if they if they can pull it off
1:36:59without all that great but you know,
1:37:00meanwhile I'm going to keep at it. Amen.
1:37:04>> This is something that I've made for
1:37:06you. I realized that the Diary of a CEO
1:37:08audience are strivers, whether it's in
1:37:09business or health. We all have big
1:37:12goals that we want to accomplish and one
1:37:13of the things I've learnt is that when
1:37:15you aim at the big big big goal it can
1:37:18feel incredibly
1:37:20psychologically uncomfortable because
1:37:22it's kind of like being stood at the
1:37:23foot of Mount Everest and looking
1:37:24upwards. The way to accomplish your
1:37:26goals is by breaking them down into tiny
1:37:29small steps and we call this in our team
1:37:31the 1% and actually this philosophy is
1:37:33highly responsible for much of our
1:37:35success here. So, what we've done so
1:37:38that you at home can accomplish any big
1:37:40goal that you have is we've made these
1:37:421% diaries and we released these last
1:37:45year and they all sold out. So, I asked
1:37:47my team over and over again to bring the
1:37:49diaries back but also to introduce some
1:37:50new colors and to make some minor tweaks
1:37:52to the diary. So, now we have a better
1:37:55range for you. So, if you have a big
1:37:58goal in mind and you need a framework
1:38:00and a process and some motivation, then
1:38:02I highly recommend you get one of these
1:38:04diaries before they all sell out once
1:38:06again. And you can get yours at the
1:38:08diary.com.
1:38:10And if you want the link, the link is in
1:38:11the description below.
1:38:12>> There should be a button just down below
1:38:14here. And if it says subscribe, you're
1:38:16already subscribed. If it says subscribe
1:38:18bar, that means you're not yet. And if
1:38:20you're not subscribed, please could you
1:38:22do us a favor and hit that button. It
1:38:23helps the show more than you know. And
1:38:25according to the algorithm, you're
1:38:26someone that watches our show but you
1:38:28haven't yet hit that button. Thank you
1:38:29so much.
1:38:30>> Okay, so we haven't done number seven
1:38:32and we And what's number eight that we
1:38:33haven't done number eight?
1:38:34>> Yeah.
1:38:35>> And we haven't done
1:38:36>> Well, we sort of did this. So, at night,
1:38:38once you're asleep, try and keep your
1:38:39sleeping environment as dark as
1:38:40possible. A good eye mask is useful.
1:38:42Some people like earplugs, too. If you
1:38:44wake up in the middle of the night, do
1:38:45some long exhale breathing or do the,
1:38:47you know, the the wacky eyes to the
1:38:49side, eyes up and then, you know,
1:38:52counterclockwise and clockwise. So, at
1:38:54night, dim the lights. Why? Bright
1:38:56lights stimulate cortisol release. You
1:38:57want your cortisol low at night.
1:38:59Everyone says God, dim the lights to
1:39:01because it suppresses melatonin. That's
1:39:03true. But that's just half of the story.
1:39:05The other reason is it increases
1:39:07cortisol and you want your cortisol low
1:39:08at night.
1:39:09>> What about this whole conversation
1:39:10around phones at night?
1:39:11>> Yeah.
1:39:11>> And blue light?
1:39:13>> Dim dim your phone. Or or triple click,
1:39:15program it to the go to the red screen.
1:39:17>> Oh, yeah.
1:39:18>> Yeah. Just do that. I I think in the
1:39:20last Let's be reasonable. The last 30
1:39:23minutes before sleep, no screens. First
1:39:2630 minutes after waking, you should be
1:39:27looking at the sun and exercising and
1:39:29hydrating and doing that kind of thing.
1:39:31>> And chuck the partner out of the bed?
1:39:32I've had I've had
1:39:34>> Really?
1:39:34>> Baby, I'm joking. I'm sleeping Baby, I'm
1:39:35joking.
1:39:36>> I'm the opposite. I'm I'm a spooner.
1:39:38>> So am I. I've read some studies that
1:39:40>> sleep best as big spoon.
1:39:41>> Yeah. I've I've no
1:39:43>> I didn't get Yeah.
1:39:44>> Yeah, you got
1:39:45>> [laughter]
1:39:46>> I I did hear a study that, you know, it
1:39:48does impact sleep, but who cares?
1:39:50>> Oh, no. I mean, uh
1:39:52the the bed cooling thing is very
1:39:53helpful cuz I tend to run warm. So,
1:39:55having another person in there is like
1:39:56really warm like it it's like it's
1:39:58sleeping with a
1:39:59>> It's so funny.
1:39:59>> I don't want to diminish
1:40:01I don't want to do a giant hot water
1:40:02bottle, but she runs really warm. So,
1:40:04having the cooling mattress helps, but
1:40:06Okay, you really want to do these two
1:40:08things. These actually go very well
1:40:10together.
1:40:11You need to do a bout of work of 90
1:40:13minutes to 2 hours. You Like you got to
1:40:14strive and try and learn something. Do
1:40:16something hard every day mentally.
1:40:18This is critical for your ability to
1:40:20focus. And by the way, you you asked
1:40:22about phones, awesome study came out.
1:40:25They had people with their phone off,
1:40:27upside down on the table, or in their
1:40:28bag, underneath their chair, or in the
1:40:30opposite room.
1:40:31A separate room. What they found is
1:40:33people can focus just fine in all three
1:40:34conditions.
1:40:36But, if the phone is anywhere in the
1:40:38room,
1:40:39the amount of cognitive flexibility they
1:40:42have with the material they're focusing
1:40:43on is diminished. In other words,
1:40:45requires more energy to focus, even if
1:40:48they're not getting calls and
1:40:48notifications. There's a subscript
1:40:51running in the brain apparently that's
1:40:53anticipating that this thing is going to
1:40:55reach for me. It's going to call me. So,
1:40:57it's calling you even if it's not
1:40:59calling you.
1:41:00Which is pretty cool. And so, the way to
1:41:02increase focus and cognitive capacity is
1:41:04actually to just get the phone out of
1:41:06the room. That's a big part of it.
1:41:08And actually visual field model matters
1:41:09a lot, too. You know, like the the kid
1:41:11in school with the hoodie who's not
1:41:12asleep, like that actually is helpful. I
1:41:14talk about some of the the history of
1:41:16tools for focus, pharmacology, but also
1:41:18physical devices. You know, they used to
1:41:19design helmets
1:41:21for kids to like try and focus, the kids
1:41:23that had troubles fo- cho- Problem is
1:41:25now with the with the phone you've moved
1:41:27the whole world right in front of you.
1:41:29So, focusing just here doesn't work, but
1:41:32get the phone out of the room and do
1:41:34some effortful learning bout, and it
1:41:36should feel like a fight. Keep in mind
1:41:37the friction you feel
1:41:39trying to learn something,
1:41:41that's adrenaline. This Remember, how do
1:41:43we block learning? We block adrenaline
1:41:46and its downstream effects with
1:41:48propranolol.
1:41:49Being alert but calm or a little
1:41:52stressed and making errors through
1:41:54deliberate attempts to do something, not
1:41:56just throw away errors,
1:41:58that's how you learn. Why? If I can
1:42:00reach out and grab this pen, my brain
1:42:02doesn't change.
1:42:04One of the biggest lies in public
1:42:05education about neuroscience is that
1:42:07every experience changes your brain. By
1:42:09the time I'm done saying this, your
1:42:10brain will be different. No, that's
1:42:11absolutely not true. That's a bunch of
1:42:13hooey. I study neuroplasticity. I teach
1:42:15neuroplasticity. I'll tell you, you know
1:42:16what induces neuroplasticity? Being a
1:42:18baby who's trying to learn or being an
1:42:20adult who's forcing yourself to try and
1:42:22learn and you can't do the thing. The
1:42:24error is what stimulates the plasticity.
1:42:28So, if you and the the appropriate level
1:42:30of difficulty, say the computational
1:42:33modeling somewhere around 15% on
1:42:35average. Now, what does that mean?
1:42:36There's two kinds of practice.
1:42:38One is practicing doing things I already
1:42:40know how to do. There, you're aiming for
1:42:42100% performance, right? You're
1:42:43reinforcing what you already know how to
1:42:45do. Talk to a great dancer and they'll
1:42:47tell you they drill, drill, drill, drill
1:42:49the things they already know how to do.
1:42:50But when you're trying to learn
1:42:52the new language, the new emotional
1:42:54skill, the new physical skill, the new
1:42:55cognitive emotional skill,
1:42:57you need to make genuine at
1:43:00tempts and you need to fail some of the
1:43:01time and those failure signals are
1:43:03relayed to your cerebellum and your
1:43:05cerebellum
1:43:07propagates through networks that say
1:43:09change.
1:43:10So, there's a set of conditions in the
1:43:12chapter on plasticity that say you need
1:43:14to be
1:43:14alert. So, I talk about all the ways you
1:43:16can get alert, including pharmacology,
1:43:19supplements and behavioral tools.
1:43:21Then you need to be focused. I talk
1:43:22about all the tools for focus, which you
1:43:24can devote to anything, not just
1:43:26learning. And then I talk about the
1:43:28conditions for plasticity. And you need
1:43:30to
1:43:31get this friction and these errors and
1:43:34then you need to stop, you need to come
1:43:36back a day or two later, do it again and
1:43:39then you need to make sure that you
1:43:40reinforce what you learned. The Here's
1:43:42where AI is going to be a wonderful
1:43:43tool, already is a wonderful tool. The
1:43:45best way to learn is to not forget.
1:43:48Meaning
1:43:50if you test yourself mentally or you
1:43:53could use any one of the LLMs but I'll
1:43:55go into chat GPT and I'll just say um
1:43:58generate a short test of a graduate
1:44:00student at Stanford level questions
1:44:02about neuroplasticity. And I And I'll
1:44:03just And I go And I remember this this
1:44:06is And there's this one thing I don't
1:44:07remember. That's how you maintain and
1:44:09build knowledge over time, self-testing.
1:44:12Self-testing. People hear the word test,
1:44:14they think of external tester, you're
1:44:16the test taker, self-testing.
1:44:17>> That's a really interesting idea for
1:44:19this podcast episode which we should
1:44:21have definitely run, team. Should we
1:44:22generate a quiz? Yeah, so we can take
1:44:24the transcript and we can turn it into a
1:44:27a test
1:44:28>> Cool.
1:44:28>> of the 10 protocols that you've talked
1:44:30through and we'll link it below if you
1:44:33want to take the test.
1:44:34>> Awesome.
1:44:35>> Yeah.
1:44:35>> Chat GPT is great at doing this. You can
1:44:37change the difficulty and you can
1:44:39actually say I'm a professor of
1:44:41neuroscience and I want a 15% error rate
1:44:44on average. Hit me.
1:44:46>> [laughter]
1:44:46>> And you'll
1:44:47So, it's pretty cool. You know, that the
1:44:50study I love that really backs this up
1:44:52is that there've been a lot of studies
1:44:53of learning where they have students
1:44:55read the same passage one, two, three,
1:44:57or four times and then they also have
1:44:58them highlight or take notes or they
1:45:00just have them read it once and
1:45:01self-test and they look six months and
1:45:03two years later.
1:45:05Reading it once, no notes, no
1:45:07highlighting, and self-testing uh you
1:45:10know, about a week later
1:45:12and looking up what you got, couldn't
1:45:13remember or got wrong, led to much more
1:45:16stable learning over time. Awesome. Now,
1:45:19this doesn't work so well for physical
1:45:20endeavors cuz there you have to like
1:45:22actually do the physical thing. You have
1:45:23to test yourself physically. But I love
1:45:26that uh set of experiments um
1:45:28cuz tells us everything we should be
1:45:30doing. So, I think in doing this for me
1:45:32it could be a book, it could be
1:45:34Lately, I've been
1:45:35podcasting and recording my audio book.
1:45:38Have you done a a book?
1:45:39>> Yes, and I did the audio book which was
1:45:40horrific.
1:45:41>> due for another one?
1:45:42>> I am. I've I've actually written it
1:45:44already. I wrote it I finished writing
1:45:45it last year, but I
1:45:46>> Oh man, what's it about?
1:45:48>> It's called Just Do It. I I
1:45:49asked the audience multiple times what I
1:45:51showed them multiple covers of books,
1:45:53hundreds of them, and asked them what
1:45:54they wanted. And that was the one that
1:45:55most of them tried to buy. And so, it's
1:45:57really just a it's really a breakdown of
1:45:59how to do the thing. And actually, I
1:46:00reference you in there in the chapter
1:46:02about the anterior mid-cingulate cortex
1:46:04and what you said about it. And
1:46:06So,
1:46:06>> It Well, to be clear, I didn't discover
1:46:07that structure, but I'm happy to
1:46:10uh expound on all its incredible
1:46:12abilities.
1:46:13>> I just quote what I heard you say about
1:46:15it in your podcast, but I'll show you
1:46:16what I what I wrote.
1:46:17>> Cool, I'll get a copy. I'm late to the
1:46:19train, obviously.
1:46:20>> [laughter]
1:46:20>> So, I think it's it's it's enriching as
1:46:22a person. It's not about optimization
1:46:25per se. It's it's about being a human
1:46:27being and learning and effort that's
1:46:29followed by learning and reward,
1:46:30especially for things that you might
1:46:32Well, including things that may not
1:46:35immediately benefit you, but just to
1:46:36enrich your mind is is cool. Like, if
1:46:38you're interested in the history of
1:46:39medicine, read a hard book, The Prince
1:46:41of Medicine about Galen. If you're
1:46:43interested in light, there are a bunch
1:46:45of cool books about sunlight coming out
1:46:46now from people other than me about how
1:46:49cool sunlight is. And there's just like
1:46:51cool books out there.
1:46:52>> But, this is this is linked to brain
1:46:53health and dementia, these kind of
1:46:55things, no?
1:46:56>> To some extent, yeah. I mean, the data
1:46:58on dementia say that people who stay
1:47:00mentally and physically active and are
1:47:01socially enriched
1:47:03um
1:47:04do very do much better. In fact, Masud
1:47:06Husain,
1:47:08uh who's this brilliant neurologist from
1:47:09Oxford, um has been talking about
1:47:12patients who it turns out live a very
1:47:14long time, have lots of plaques and
1:47:16tangles, the signature anatomical
1:47:18features of Alzheimer's dementia, but no
1:47:20dementia.
1:47:21>> Oh, yeah.
1:47:22>> And these people are exercisers and they
1:47:24are people who stay very avidly engaged
1:47:27in learning. So, there are a lot more
1:47:28people with {quote} "Als" with
1:47:30Alzheimer's walking around. They have
1:47:32all the diagnostic features of
1:47:33Alzheimer's except the memory loss and
1:47:35dementia. So, this says that to some
1:47:37extent the physical
1:47:39ramifications of Alzheimer's and the
1:47:42consequence of those changes in neurons
1:47:45are
1:47:46somewhat somewhat separable. We want to
1:47:48be fair. I mean, he also told me that
1:47:49there are patients who have Parkinson's
1:47:51who can't generate smooth movement. But
1:47:53if they have to escape a burning
1:47:54building, they can. Which is
1:47:58interesting, a little frustrating as a
1:48:00message because it sort of sends could
1:48:02potentially send the wrong message, like
1:48:03they're just not motivated enough, but
1:48:04it points to the fact that if
1:48:06motivational systems are
1:48:09high enough, that there may be alternate
1:48:11motivational systems. In the same way
1:48:12that kids with very severe ADHD, if you
1:48:15give them a video game they love, they
1:48:16are locked and loaded.
1:48:18They're in a They're in a focus tunnel
1:48:20like this for 2 hours, which tells you
1:48:22they can focus, but not on things they
1:48:24they're not really interested in. And a
1:48:26lot of life is about forcing yourself to
1:48:28be interested in things you don't really
1:48:29want to do.
1:48:30>> So, that's number four. We've got one
1:48:31left. Number 10, is it?
1:48:32>> Yeah.
1:48:33>> You said they were linked.
1:48:34>> Number 10, to frame this a little bit.
1:48:37The last chapter of my book is on
1:48:38personal development. I thought a lot,
1:48:40like am I going to write a book a a last
1:48:41chapter on like relationships?
1:48:44That seemed like a no. But not because I
1:48:46haven't had them or not because I
1:48:47haven't had some great ones. Um but
1:48:49because I think people who like work on
1:48:51that
1:48:52as their academics, you know,
1:48:54fundamentally should do that. Then
1:48:55again, I had a chapter on nutrition and
1:48:56exercise, but um in any event, I decided
1:48:59to write about relationship to self.
1:49:03And then I thought, no, personal
1:49:04development is something we're all
1:49:05trying to do. And here's the key
1:49:07question set up at the beginning. I talk
1:49:09about grief and what the science of
1:49:10grief is and and how to navigate grief,
1:49:12but early on in that the chapter on
1:49:15personal development, I sort of set it
1:49:16up the following way.
1:49:17I look out on the landscape of all the
1:49:19personal, psychological, and
1:49:21relationship development stuff out
1:49:23there, online, in books, in papers, etc.
1:49:26And it looks like there's sort of
1:49:27a
1:49:28two bins. One is
1:49:31how to
1:49:33find what's important to you, do what's
1:49:35best for you, and be the person you're
1:49:38supposed to be
1:49:40for the world
1:49:41and maybe for you also. And then there's
1:49:43this other bin, which is
1:49:45that we need to be very careful about
1:49:47pursuing things and fulfilling roles
1:49:49because we can get very far off track
1:49:50from our core, like what Martha Beck
1:49:52would call our essential self.
1:49:54>> Mhm.
1:49:54>> And I'm a huge fan of her work, if in no
1:49:56small part because she talked about that
1:49:58in her books, which were very, very
1:50:00impactful for me.
1:50:02But she also has three degrees from
1:50:03Harvard. So this isn't somebody who like
1:50:05can't get stuff done. And she's a mom,
1:50:07and she's navigated complicated life
1:50:09landscapes.
1:50:11So I was like, okay, this is this kind
1:50:12of it. And then I I hosted um James
1:50:15Hollis, this 84-year-old Jungian analyst
1:50:17on my podcast, and um he just
1:50:21wowed the heck out of all of us. And he
1:50:24basically said this, here's a really
1:50:26good life. Mind you, this guy's written
1:50:27books like The Eden Project on on
1:50:29relationships. He's written books like
1:50:31Under Saturn's Shadow on the healing and
1:50:33trauma of men. He's a He's a brilliant
1:50:35thinker. And he said, "Look,
1:50:37there's
1:50:38three things you got to do every day."
1:50:41And he encourages his patients to write
1:50:43this on their refrigerator or carry it
1:50:44around with them. He says, "First, shut
1:50:46up."
1:50:47I'm like, "What? I thought he was going
1:50:48to be like this like nice Jungian
1:50:50analyst." Like He goes, "Shut up."
1:50:52He goes, "There's always somebody
1:50:53suffering more than you.
1:50:55You have to have gratitude. You have to
1:50:56have a gratitude practice." So I spent
1:50:58some time talking about
1:51:00what that really looks like. Cuz there's
1:51:01a science of gratitude, and then there's
1:51:03the common understanding about what that
1:51:04is. It's really about
1:51:07receiving gratitude.
1:51:09Or
1:51:10yes, having a gratitude practice of all
1:51:11the things that are good in your life,
1:51:13but really it's about giving gratitude
1:51:14and receiving gratitude. And that's a
1:51:17I talk about that and how to accomplish
1:51:19that. Second thing he he said, so I go,
1:51:21"Okay, now he'll kind of soften up." And
1:51:22he
1:51:23he says, "Suit up."
1:51:25You're not going to be able to do well
1:51:26in anything in life unless you prepare.
1:51:28Get up in the morning, take care of your
1:51:30health, do what you need to to shower,
1:51:32brush your teeth, get organized. This
1:51:33sounds a little bit like Jordan
1:51:35Peterson's clean your room, but it's
1:51:36even like edgier than that. It was like,
1:51:39how in the world could you perform well
1:51:41on an exam or in a relationship or in a
1:51:43sport or at work if you don't actually
1:51:45do your homework? I was like, "Oh man,
1:51:47this guy's like some some like boomer
1:51:49knowledge right here." And then he says,
1:51:51"And show up." He said, "Happy people
1:51:54fulfill outward roles
1:51:57for the world. They fulfill roles.
1:51:59Father, mother, sister, brother. They
1:52:01look at themselves and this is not the
1:52:03totality of it, but they look at
1:52:05themselves as somebody who needs to
1:52:07fulfill roles.
1:52:08Teacher,
1:52:10mechanic, whatever. Engineer, podcaster.
1:52:13But you have to shut up, suit up, and
1:52:15show up. You need to fulfill roles.
1:52:17There is no human being
1:52:19that doesn't get doesn't have to do
1:52:21stuff for the world. You can't freeload.
1:52:24But then he said there's this other bin,
1:52:27which is if you carry on like that for
1:52:2910, 20, or 30 years, you can end up
1:52:31quite [clears throat] happy, but most of
1:52:32the time if people just do those things,
1:52:35they end up pretty miserable.
1:52:36And I was like, "Oh man, like
1:52:39And he said the other piece is once a
1:52:40day
1:52:42you need to get out of role fulfillment.
1:52:44You need to get out of preparation, suit
1:52:47up, and you need to get out of trying to
1:52:49be more grateful.
1:52:51You still need to do that, but you need
1:52:52to get out of that and you need to go
1:52:53into what he called exiting the
1:52:55stimulus-response
1:52:57mode of being, which could be sitting
1:52:59quietly in meditation. It could be
1:53:01drawing, listening to music. You're not
1:53:03trying to accomplish anything.
1:53:06And you're just letting your unconscious
1:53:07mind feed you information about what he
1:53:10called your deepest heart's desires.
1:53:13And I was like,
1:53:15"Yes.
1:53:16This is why we go camping." He said,
1:53:18"Yes, you can take longer extended
1:53:20breaks. You can go backpacking. You can
1:53:21run. You can do that You can allow this
1:53:23to happen in any number of ways, but
1:53:24once a day,
1:53:26take some space for yourself and just
1:53:28touch in with self. Now, if you're
1:53:30sitting there going, 'Okay, what do I
1:53:31want to be when I grew up?' It should
1:53:32happen It's not the way it works. Your
1:53:33unconscious mind speaks to you in
1:53:35emotions, in analogies, and it sets you
1:53:38up to go back into life to be able to
1:53:41seek connections and start navigating in
1:53:43new and interesting ways. Ways that are
1:53:45unique to your heart's desires, about
1:53:47what you like and what you don't like.
1:53:49And to know that those choices are in
1:53:52goodness and in keeping with who you
1:53:53are. I can't tell you what your deepest
1:53:55heart's desires are. Only you can come
1:53:57to that clarity, but you need to do it
1:53:59through a practice where you're not
1:54:01trying to be the football coach, the
1:54:02mom, the best this. You need to listen
1:54:04to yourself. But you also need to keep
1:54:06fulfilling those roles because he and I
1:54:07both agree, and I mentioned this several
1:54:09times cuz I get asked all the time, "How
1:54:11do I find my calling?" You find it while
1:54:14working your butt off doing something
1:54:16else. That's how.
1:54:17You don't sit around going, "Well,
1:54:18what's my calling?" You work your butt
1:54:20off doing the something else and you
1:54:22hate it, so you do something that you
1:54:23hate a little less. Then you do
1:54:24something you hate a little less, maybe.
1:54:25And eventually you get pulled forward to
1:54:27this thing that is your key self.
1:54:29>> And there's not necessarily a cuz people
1:54:31often, when they talk about finding a
1:54:33find your passion, passion is a word
1:54:35that happens to be singular, which can
1:54:36be somewhat distorting. Yeah. Cuz then
1:54:39you think it's almost like an Easter
1:54:40egg. I have to go I have to go search
1:54:41for it and there's going to be one of
1:54:42them somewhere.
1:54:43>> I can handle 5-year chunks. Maybe this
1:54:45just reflects my years and years of like
1:54:47getting degrees where it's like 3 to 5
1:54:49years for this, then 3 to 5 years for
1:54:50that, post-doc, graduate school, etc.
1:54:52I'm navigating from 50 to 55 now. That's
1:54:55what I know. I know what I'm going to
1:54:56carry forward, exercise, faith,
1:55:00hydration. So, I know what I'm going to
1:55:01carry forward, but I don't know what's
1:55:02coming next. I've never been 60 before.
1:55:05>> So, at the end of the day, and there
1:55:07were two questions that I had for you
1:55:08here based on some of the research. Um
1:55:10the first is I'll say it's a technical
1:55:12one, but sleeping on your side, I heard
1:55:14there's
1:55:15there's different outcomes for your
1:55:17brain based on how you sleep at night.
1:55:20>> When you sleep, you have a washout of
1:55:22waste products from the brain. Very
1:55:24important for offsetting dementia, very
1:55:26important for feeling rested, and if
1:55:27that's not enough incentive, very
1:55:28important for for getting rid of bags
1:55:30under your eyes. You know in the morning
1:55:32when you're Have you ever seen yourself
1:55:33after one night's shitty sleep?
1:55:35>> Oh my gosh.
1:55:35>> Right. Sleep two nights well, you see
1:55:37yourself.
1:55:37>> Yeah, yeah. What the hell?
1:55:38>> Yeah, you're you're handsome self again,
1:55:40Steven. You know? So, what is that?
1:55:43That's accumulation of of lymph and
1:55:45other fluids and waste products here.
1:55:47The skin
1:55:47>> out?
1:55:48>> Yeah. So, during sleep there's this
1:55:50glymphatic clearance.
1:55:52Um and it does seem it can be slightly
1:55:55but significantly improved by sleeping
1:55:57on your side with your head slightly
1:55:59elevated. We used to think it was
1:56:01slightly inverted, now we think it's
1:56:02slightly elevated. When you get up in
1:56:03the morning,
1:56:05I'm actually a big fan. I got one of
1:56:06these inversion tables, but most people
1:56:08won't You know where you lie back and
1:56:09you go upside down? No, you just hang
1:56:11upside down. It feels good on my back.
1:56:13But, some people get the shaker or some
1:56:14people do some jump rope. You can just
1:56:15kind of shake out and move because the
1:56:17lymphatic system is really incredible.
1:56:19It's one-way valves stacked up from your
1:56:22feet all the way up to your brain. The
1:56:24people think about the the role of lymph
1:56:26and lymph nodes in immune checkpoints
1:56:28and immune system. That's all true, of
1:56:29course. But, the lymph system is taking
1:56:32liquid and it's dumping it back into
1:56:34your blood circulation, and it can
1:56:37accumulate when you're lying or when
1:56:39you're you know, this is
1:56:40lymphedema as you know, swelling of the
1:56:42lower limbs, etc. So, you need to move.
1:56:44When you move, the you're essentially
1:56:46squeezing the lymph in these one-way
1:56:48valves up to dump back into the general
1:56:50circulation. Your brain doesn't have
1:56:52that mechanism. So, miraculously in
1:56:55sleep, you get the astrocytes, the glial
1:56:58cells, actually create a bit of extra
1:57:01space in the brain between neural tissue
1:57:03that allows the waste products, the
1:57:06glymph as we call it, glia lymph,
1:57:08glymph, to flow up and out towards the
1:57:11surface of the brain, and then it dumps
1:57:13out of the brain
1:57:15still in the body, of course, and down
1:57:17and out. Actually, the puffiness of the
1:57:19eyes, the anterior chamber of the eyes,
1:57:21some of the cloudiness of the eye, these
1:57:23systems are shared, and actually some of
1:57:25it actually comes out through the nose,
1:57:27which is wild. But, get upright, move
1:57:31around,
1:57:32there's a a bunch of ways of like, you
1:57:35know, these like tapping, shaking. Looks
1:57:36silly, it looks kind of crazy. Looks
1:57:38like you've been in California too long
1:57:39if you do these things, but it can help
1:57:40move lymph out. But, sleeping does that
1:57:43clears lymph. The other thing that's
1:57:45There's a recent study published in
1:57:46Proceedings of the National Academy of
1:57:48Sciences that I do detail in the book,
1:57:50which is a short meditation.
1:57:53Believe it or not, increases glymphatic
1:57:55clearance in the daytime. Now, this is
1:57:57super interesting because
1:57:59folks like you and me always want to
1:58:01figure out how we can get by with less
1:58:02sleep and still feel awesome and not
1:58:04short circuit our health. Turns out that
1:58:06the regular meditators are probably able
1:58:08to shave an hour off their sleep,
1:58:1120 minutes a day meditation, because
1:58:13they're getting the glymph clearance
1:58:15during their meditation. And so, in
1:58:17sleep, the timing of sleep and how long
1:58:20you sleep has a lot to do with body
1:58:21temperature, but also there there seems
1:58:23to be a drive for glymph clearance that
1:58:25says you need to sleep longer, which is
1:58:27why one of the reasons why when you're
1:58:29sick, you sleep a lot more. One of them,
1:58:30there are others as well. So, short I'm
1:58:33now back to meditating,
1:58:35and my meditation practice is pretty
1:58:37feeble compared to many, but here's what
1:58:39I do. I wake up in the morning, and the
1:58:41first thing I do is 10 breaths of
1:58:43meditation. I tell myself if I can't
1:58:45concentrate for 10 breaths without my
1:58:47mind going elsewhere, what kind of day
1:58:49am I going to have? And also, what kind
1:58:50of human am I if I can't organize myself
1:58:53for 10 breaths? Then I get out of bed, I
1:58:55usually go straight to the bathroom,
1:58:57pee, then I go hydrate, then I get
1:59:00sunlight, then I try and get some
1:59:01movement, although these days I because
1:59:02of the dog, I get a walk in, then I come
1:59:04back, drink some caffeine, exercise.
1:59:07>> And the 10-step starts?
1:59:08>> Yeah, it starts all over again. We are
1:59:10this rhythm. No human being has ever
1:59:12escaped these circadian influences in
1:59:15cortisol and melatonin.
1:59:16>> Do you take
1:59:17You don't really talk in depth about
1:59:19supplements or recommend something?
1:59:20>> Oh, I do. I always get asked, "What
1:59:21should I take?" I talk about alpha GPC,
1:59:23L-tyrosine, I talk about theanine, I
1:59:26talk about theanine's use with low-dose
1:59:28caffeine for enhanced task switching,
1:59:31which is a very interesting literature.
1:59:33I talk about
1:59:35um
1:59:36ways to improve sleep, everything from
1:59:38tart cherry to apigenin to quivivec,
1:59:41um which is one of the doras, one of
1:59:42these uh orexin drugs. I talk I oh, I
1:59:46>> But what do you take every day?
1:59:47>> You got another 3 hours?
1:59:49>> Uh really? No, no, no, that's a lot.
1:59:50>> Nah, not really.
1:59:51>> like if you had to pick five if they
1:59:53said to you and you can only do five for
1:59:55the rest of your life,
1:59:56what five supplements would it be?
1:59:57>> Well, if somebody's sleeping
1:59:59terrifically well, I'd say nothing for
2:00:01sleep. If they're not sleeping
2:00:02terrifically well, I would suggest they
2:00:03they try magnesium threonine eight or
2:00:06magnesium bisglycinate. They're
2:00:08interchangeable for sleep. Okay, that's
2:00:10one.
2:00:10I'm a big believer in getting at least 1
2:00:13g per day of EPA
2:00:15omega-3.
2:00:16>> Okay.
2:00:17>> I suggest getting it because it's now
2:00:18available generic and cheap, but
2:00:21prescription form Lovaza.
2:00:22>> EPA, what's that?
2:00:23>> That form of omega-3 that's
2:00:26that you want for brain health,
2:00:28probably also for cardiovascular health
2:00:30and reduced inflammation.
2:00:31>> I know if that's the omega-3 that I
2:00:32have?
2:00:33>> You need a prescription.
2:00:34>> Oh, you need a prescription.
2:00:35>> But here's what's awesome about it. It's
2:00:36very high concentration EPA and it's
2:00:38cleared of all heavy metals.
2:00:39>> Okay.
2:00:41>> And
2:00:42it's very, very inexpensive. So, the
2:00:45challenge is getting a doctor to
2:00:46prescribe it for you. Just tell them you
2:00:47want lavazza or else you're going to
2:00:49take a bunch of stuff over the counter.
2:00:50You might get mercury poisoning. There
2:00:51you go.
2:00:52>> right.
2:00:52>> Don't threaten your doctor, but you get
2:00:53the idea. So, that's for mental health,
2:00:56physical health, big believer in
2:00:58boosting omega 3s. Also, I don't eat
2:00:59fatty fish. I don't like salmon
2:01:01unless it's sushi and like I'm just not
2:01:03good at eating seafood.
2:01:05Um so, that's two.
2:01:07Vitamin D.
2:01:08>> Vitamin D.
2:01:08>> 5,000 to 10,000 IU per day. People will
2:01:10be like, "Oh, you don't know that. You
2:01:11need to blood test. You don't want to
2:01:13over" Okay, don't take 25,000.
2:01:15But,
2:01:16most people are under dosing vitamin D
2:01:18and also, I'm not
2:01:21I know it pisses people off and I'm not
2:01:22trying to like hit the RDA.
2:01:25Okay? Just like I
2:01:26>> Recommended daily allowance.
2:01:28>> Yeah, I'm not just trying to hit the
2:01:29RDA. I'm also not trying to like blow a
2:01:31gasket by taking too much. Like, let's
2:01:32be rational here, right? I'm trying to
2:01:35get to a point where I can derive
2:01:38safety but additional benefits. And it's
2:01:40clear that dosing of 5,000 IU per day
2:01:43has some additional benefits that go way
2:01:45beyond conventional benefits of vitamin
2:01:48D that are discussed. For instance,
2:01:50hormone health. Like, I can see my
2:01:52blood's getting better when I take 5,000
2:01:55as opposed to 3,000 IU of vitamin D and
2:01:57I'm not changing anything else. So,
2:01:59vitamin D and I get sunlight.
2:02:01Maybe 10,000 was a little high, but I
2:02:03take five to 10.
2:02:04Um so, that's three. And then the other
2:02:06two would be
2:02:08if you're going to exercise or
2:02:10work intensely late in the day or if
2:02:13you're going to if you really want a
2:02:15stimulant to go with your caffeine. By
2:02:17the way, 90% of the world consumes
2:02:18caffeine every day. So, that's a
2:02:20foregone conclusion that they're already
2:02:21taking it.
2:02:23I am a big fan of alpha GPC. I am. 600
2:02:27mg or 900 mg of of it
2:02:29>> What's that?
2:02:29>> It increases choline, which increases
2:02:31acetylcholine.
2:02:32>> Oh, I think I have acetylcholine in the
2:02:33cupboard.
2:02:34>> Yeah, which can increase your ability to
2:02:36focus. I'm a big believer in this in
2:02:39not for everyone, but rather than going
2:02:41straight to a a prescription stimulant.
2:02:43And I'll tell you why. There are very,
2:02:45very few things that can increase focus
2:02:47and energy that
2:02:49don't damage your sleep. But even
2:02:50better, Alpha-GPC gives you more REM
2:02:52sleep.
2:02:54Nobody wants to hear this, but it's
2:02:55absolutely true. But the other thing,
2:02:57the important caveat, is that it can
2:02:59increase something called TMAO, which
2:03:01can increase cardiovascular risk. So, a
2:03:03simple way to mitigate that is you take
2:03:05600 mg of of a garlic capsule, and it
2:03:08doesn't smell like garlic. So, I can
2:03:10tuck that in with it. And you can take
2:03:11it anytime same day.
2:03:13>> Is that five?
2:03:14>> That's five cuz I threw garlic in there.
2:03:16No, cuz we said it was magnesium
2:03:18bisglycinate or 3 and 8. We said
2:03:20omega-3, we said vitamin D, and then we
2:03:23said Alpha-GPC would be my
2:03:26preferable thing to nicotine or
2:03:29prescription stimulants. And I'm But
2:03:31caffeine is great. Great data on
2:03:32caffeine. In fact, 200 to 400 mg of
2:03:36caffeine per day
2:03:38has been shown to offset dementia in
2:03:40meaningful ways.
2:03:41Meaningful ways. It's not causal, it's
2:03:43correlative, but those data are covered
2:03:45in there as well. So, I'm I'm going to
2:03:46continue drinking my yerba mate and my
2:03:48coffee.
2:03:49And then the So, I suppose the last one
2:03:53>> I have a
2:03:53>> that's kind of like you get
2:03:55creatine.
2:03:56>> Yeah.
2:03:56>> Yeah, so I was going to say dealer's
2:03:58choice, but creatine seems to work best
2:04:00for cognitive enhancement when you're a
2:04:01bit sleep deprived or stressed, this
2:04:03kind of thing.
2:04:04I don't know. I've been taking creatine
2:04:05since I was 17 or 18, somewhere in
2:04:07there. 5 to 10 g per day. I like it cuz
2:04:11it I mean, I'm trying to maintain or
2:04:13build strength, and it puts water in
2:04:15your muscles. It makes you stronger.
2:04:17And it feels good to be strong.
2:04:19And you got you got to train, but that's
2:04:21why I take it.
2:04:22>> Okay, the last thing I wanted to ask you
2:04:23about is I saw a clip, I think it was
2:04:24one of your most viral clips of all
2:04:26time, where you just talked about how
2:04:28going for a walk after you eat can have
2:04:31a really big impact on your body.
2:04:34>> Yes.
2:04:34>> That's most people don't realize.
2:04:36>> Most people don't realize there's a
2:04:37section I think walking is necessary but
2:04:39not sufficient for health.
2:04:42You know, I don't think you need to
2:04:43count 10,000 steps per day, but I I
2:04:45think 7,000 to 8,000 steps per day
2:04:47should be the goal. You can do it all
2:04:49pace while I'm on calls. I take every
2:04:52when I finish a podcast with my team, we
2:04:54take a walk. I I'm always trying to take
2:04:56stairs. When I travel, I take stairs not
2:04:59the escalator.
2:05:00You arrive a little sweatier to your
2:05:01plane, but you're also rocking your bags
2:05:04and this kind of thing. So, walking is
2:05:06is incredible because those low-level
2:05:08repeated muscle contractions really help
2:05:10buffer blood glucose, especially after a
2:05:12meal. But, there's this wild study where
2:05:16the soleus muscle the one that gives the
2:05:18calf width width, you know, when you do
2:05:20seated calf raises, right? You're it's
2:05:23this muscle underneath the
2:05:24gastrocnemius, right?
2:05:27That muscle is about 1% of your total
2:05:28musculature.
2:05:30But, it has an outsized and significant
2:05:32glucose utilization.
2:05:34Interesting. So, in this study, which is
2:05:36not practical, they had people do what
2:05:38they called soleus push-ups, which are
2:05:40basically non-weighted seated calf
2:05:42raises while sitting. And they had them
2:05:44do it repeatedly. And they looked at
2:05:46blood glucose regulation. And that
2:05:48powerfully
2:05:49regulated blood glucose increases. It
2:05:51buffered the peaks. And it turns out
2:05:53that this is related to walking. So, I'm
2:05:55not suggesting unless perhaps you're
2:05:57stuck on a plane or while while in an
2:05:58office that you, you know, if you're a
2:06:00knee balancer,
2:06:01rejoice. You know, you're doing yourself
2:06:03good. Um but, this movement
2:06:06really seems to help blood glucose
2:06:09management. Now, some people say, "Oh,
2:06:10yeah, this is all silly. They're trying
2:06:11about all day you're going to do this?"
2:06:13Yeah, some people probably accuse us of
2:06:14this. No, what I'm saying is walk.
2:06:15Because when you walk, you're getting
2:06:16that low-level repeated muscle
2:06:18contraction. It's a slow-twitch muscle.
2:06:20And it seems to be
2:06:21I don't want to call it a sync, but it
2:06:23seems to be an unsuspected um furnace
2:06:27for glucose utilization.
2:06:29>> And why does that matter?
2:06:30>> You don't want big peaks in glucose. You
2:06:32can manage them. I mean, you get more
2:06:34insulin will be secreted if you have a
2:06:36big peak in in glucose. That's why
2:06:37insulin's there to make sure that um
2:06:39glucose is managed. You don't want it
2:06:41too high. You don't want to be
2:06:42hyperglycemic. In fact, that can be
2:06:43deadly. You don't want to be
2:06:44hypoglycemic. But, when people eat, they
2:06:47experience an increase in blood glucose.
2:06:49And while the peaks are manageable, if
2:06:52you're buffering them, say you're you're
2:06:54you're sort of flattening out those
2:06:55peaks with, you know, 5 to 10 minutes of
2:06:56walking after a meal,
2:06:59you will have fewer energy crashes.
2:07:02In theory, over time, your metabolic
2:07:05health can be better, at least can not
2:07:07get worse. And you know, there's
2:07:10Dr. Rhonda Patrick has has pointed out
2:07:12there's a sort of a comparison study
2:07:14where people either walked after meals
2:07:16or for 30 minutes or or so on per day,
2:07:19or they did, you know, 10 air squats
2:07:21every 45 minutes or so. Just stand up
2:07:23and do air squats. And it looks like
2:07:24they were comparable. Maybe the air
2:07:25squats were better. I don't know about
2:07:27you, but I'm not going to stand up and
2:07:28do air squats in a restaurant or when I
2:07:31get out onto the street of New York, if
2:07:32I have the great, you know, experience
2:07:35of having dinner with you and James
2:07:36Sexton again. That was the last time we
2:07:38had a shared meal. I'm not going to do
2:07:39air squats. Um we're going to walk. So,
2:07:41I think I'm not being disparaging of of
2:07:43of Rhonda. I think she was pointing out
2:07:45a a mechanistic feature, not not a not a
2:07:48a protocol, but necessarily. But, if
2:07:51you're stuck on a plane you do some air
2:07:52squats, you could you could you know,
2:07:53bounce your knee. And you know,
2:07:54non-exercise um induced thermogenesis is
2:07:58a massive calorie burn. You know, people
2:08:00who move a lot tend to be rather thin.
2:08:03They tend to be lean.
2:08:04It The studies on those uh
2:08:06I go back to my undergraduate days when
2:08:08I worked on metabolism and physiology,
2:08:10like Rothwell and Stock and some other
2:08:12folks,
2:08:13these scientists who figured out that
2:08:14there were people who could eat a lot
2:08:16more than you would think they needed,
2:08:18but they always stayed lean. Turns out
2:08:20they're moving a lot during the day.
2:08:22Burning up to 1,800 calories a day.
2:08:25Now, that's extreme, but some people who
2:08:26just move a bit more on a thousand
2:08:29calories to per day. And there's this
2:08:31paper published in the journal Science,
2:08:32which is a great journal, not as great
2:08:34as Nature,
2:08:35but the Brits get the cake there, and
2:08:37people will argue, but it's true, that
2:08:40the decline in metabolism that we all
2:08:41associate with aging, like oh, your
2:08:43metabolism slows as you age, turns out
2:08:44that's not true. Turns out that if
2:08:47people maintain muscle mass, that
2:08:48doesn't happen. You say, okay, well,
2:08:49then aging is muscle mass loss is
2:08:52reduction in metabolism. Actually, no.
2:08:54People are moving less. And I've been as
2:08:57everyone else has been absorbed with
2:08:58this longevity thing, I look at older
2:09:01people,
2:09:02and and particularly people in their
2:09:0380s, and you know what I see a lot of?
2:09:06A lot less spontaneous movement and a
2:09:08lot of mouth breathing,
2:09:10>> [gasps]
2:09:11[panting and sighs]
2:09:11>> which at rest is not good. We know this.
2:09:14That deprives the brain of oxygen. It's
2:09:15not good. You can mouth breathe during
2:09:17exercise, physiological size, etc., but
2:09:19you don't want to be a mouth breather in
2:09:21sleep or in wakefulness. And then you
2:09:23host people like James Hollis or Twyla
2:09:25Tharp, whose I don't know her exact age,
2:09:28I think she's in her early 80s, but
2:09:30choreographer, world-class dancer,
2:09:32who deadlifts
2:09:34a lot and works out for two hours a day
2:09:37at 5:00 in the morning, who boxes, who
2:09:39choreographs. They're so mentally sharp.
2:09:42They're physically lean. There are other
2:09:44examples I could rattle off, and you go,
2:09:46what is happening? Mike Snyder, my
2:09:47colleague at Stanford, who's not that
2:09:49old, but he's in his 70s. You look at
2:09:50him, you go, what's going on? And
2:09:52they're moving all the time. They're
2:09:54moving, they're mentally active, they
2:09:55posture like you. They're exercising,
2:09:58sure, but they are moving, moving,
2:09:59moving. The spontaneous movement is
2:10:01burning calories. That's one piece, but
2:10:03it's also the glucose regulation. It's
2:10:05the fact that they're not sitting
2:10:07stagnant in their own
2:10:09It You know, there's
2:10:11Lane Norton has pointed out quite
2:10:13beautifully, actually, that what's the
2:10:15problem with caloric excess? Okay,
2:10:17there's the fat aesthetic piece, right?
2:10:18Body fat aesthetic piece, but that
2:10:20aside,
2:10:21it's that you have a toxicity of over of
2:10:25of energy. The world's expert in
2:10:27mitochondria came on my podcast
2:10:29recently, Jared Rutter. I mean, he's
2:10:31phenom in the the biochemistry and the
2:10:34the genetics of mitochondria, and he
2:10:36will tell you. He's like, "When you
2:10:38overload a system
2:10:40and therefore a cell with calories, the
2:10:42mitochondria that the whole system gets
2:10:44sick. The energy management system of a
2:10:46cell gets sick. And your metabolism,
2:10:48this thing that you call your
2:10:49metabolism, is the collective makeup of
2:10:52all these trillions of cells. So, you
2:10:54jam too much
2:10:55fuel in there, like they don't work as
2:10:58well. And
2:11:00caloric restriction at times might be
2:11:01beneficial, caloric maintenance maybe a
2:11:03little bit more at times, a little bit
2:11:04less. This is good. So, movement,
2:11:06movement, movement, because it's
2:11:08obviously calories in, calories out.
2:11:10>> You know this is, right?
2:11:11>> It You told me I need to stop.
2:11:13>> No, no, no, no, no. This is not a clock.
2:11:14This is a
2:11:16This is a This is a CO2 monitor.
2:11:18>> I thought it was a lux meter. Okay.
2:11:20Okay, how high Oh, we have a lot of CO2
2:11:22in here.
2:11:22>> Yeah. It's It's something that we always
2:11:24have in the studio because I I think I
2:11:25learned over time that the higher this
2:11:26got, the more sort of tired I felt. And
2:11:29obviously because there's not great
2:11:30ventilation in this studio here, we
2:11:31started at 600 and we're now at 1,700.
2:11:34>> And we're under short wavelength light,
2:11:35but before we came in here, what did we
2:11:37do? We went outside and we got a blast
2:11:39of full spectrum sunlight.
2:11:42>> Sunlight. Yeah, I always I Yeah, I think
2:11:44about this a lot now when I'm trying to
2:11:45do good cognitive work cuz I read some
2:11:46studies that if this gets above 1,000
2:11:48parts per million, cognitive performance
2:11:50starts to go down.
2:11:51>> your cognitive performance gets any
2:11:52better, we're all hosed cuz you're
2:11:55>> You're very kind.
2:11:56Andrew, thank you so much for so many
2:11:58reasons. It's such an honor to to get to
2:11:59learn from you, but I
2:12:01you know, there's
2:12:02I'll be honest, there's no books that
2:12:03I'm waiting for. There's no books that
2:12:05I've been waiting for. Is there any book
2:12:06in my life that I've been waiting for?
2:12:08No, there's not. This is the only book
2:12:10in my life that I've been waiting for
2:12:12for years now. And um
2:12:14I say that to say cuz I I I believe in
2:12:16your approach. I believe in your
2:12:18approach, your scientific rigor, the
2:12:19nuance you apply, the stories that you
2:12:21tell, the experiences you've had, the
2:12:23unbelievable, almost like mesmerizing
2:12:25ability you have to remember things.
2:12:27Remember that? You didn't reference one
2:12:29study without referencing like the
2:12:30author of the study, and I've like never
2:12:32seen I was like, "How the has he
2:12:33done that?" Like, how do you know all
2:12:34the names of all these people?
2:12:36>> Years of Years of training and advisors
2:12:38who
2:12:39drilled into me that attribution is
2:12:41important.
2:12:42>> It's remarkable. There's so much
2:12:44information out there around health and
2:12:46the all the things that we've graced
2:12:47today, but um I was waiting for your
2:12:49book, because I'm not very good at
2:12:51reading books, right?
2:12:52>> Well, there's an audio version, too, if
2:12:54you prefer.
2:12:54>> [laughter]
2:12:54>> Cuz it'll be a long run.
2:12:55>> No,
2:12:56no, I'm trying to build the anterior
2:12:57mid-cingulate cortex, I'm trying to. So,
2:12:58I'm going to I was I always said to
2:13:00myself, whenever he whenever he
2:13:01publishes that bloody book, I will read
2:13:03the whole thing from cover to cover, and
2:13:05uh this is the first book in the world,
2:13:07I believe, that's been printed.
2:13:08>> Yeah, can I This is an opportunity to
2:13:10say what I've been waiting this entire
2:13:12podcast to say. The copy you're holding
2:13:13in your hand is the first
2:13:15the very first and the only hard cover
2:13:18copy that I have or have touched or have
2:13:20seen, and I'm gifting it to you if And
2:13:22I'm gifting it to you. I want you to
2:13:23have the book. Seriously, I want you to
2:13:25have it. And um
2:13:27and I'll sign it if you want or not sign
2:13:29it if you don't, but um it would be an
2:13:31honor for me
2:13:33uh to be able to do that, because I've
2:13:35learned so much from you. You've been an
2:13:36amazing colleague and friend and and
2:13:39supporter, but also just
2:13:41really a
2:13:42You're an amazing human being. You're a
2:13:44truly good human being. And I'm I've
2:13:47spent time with you on and off mic, and
2:13:49you know the number one thing that you
2:13:51need to know about Steven is he is who
2:13:53he appears to be.
2:13:55He's a super kind, curious, loving
2:13:58person, flawed like the rest of us.
2:14:02Albeit less flawed than me, that's
2:14:04clear. Um
2:14:05but you really are a a great human
2:14:08being, and you're trying to do great
2:14:09things in the world for everyone around
2:14:11you and for the world. So,
2:14:13um
2:14:14it's a vastly lesser token of of my
2:14:17gratitude to you for all those things
2:14:18than than it could be or should be, but
2:14:21I'd like to gift it to you.
2:14:22>> No, it's such an honor. I was like
2:14:23thinking of ways to steal it, so I'm so
2:14:25[laughter] glad you
2:14:25>> Well, I'm gifting it to you. I'm gifting
2:14:27it to you and and um
2:14:29and I now I'm going to go read your book
2:14:31and I look forward to your next book.
2:14:32>> Yeah. Yeah, soon. Thank you so much.
2:14:34It's such a such a beautiful book and I
2:14:37I'm really glad that it netted out at
2:14:39the size that it did as well.
2:14:40It is I think the perfect size. And I
2:14:42think you've you've done a wonderful job
2:14:43throughout. As I was flicking through as
2:14:44you were speaking and jumping to
2:14:45different sections, I think you've done
2:14:47a wonderful job of making it really
2:14:48accessible.
2:14:50Because, you know, I'm not the smartest
2:14:51cookie as it relates to science, but I
2:14:53was able to understand everything and I
2:14:55think that's a really remarkable thing.
2:14:56It is also gorgeous.
2:14:58>> Mhm.
2:14:58>> Um I dare I say it, I'll probably get
2:15:00up for this, but I think
2:15:02sometimes the the British version of
2:15:04books is a is a good-looking and then
2:15:05the American versions are always wonder
2:15:07why they're a little bit uglier.
2:15:08>> The the aesthetics in Britain, you know,
2:15:10um like
2:15:12people dress really well in Britain.
2:15:14They take care they like pay attention
2:15:16to these little details like in their
2:15:17shoes and things. Like, what do you call
2:15:18it? Smart like they dress really smart,
2:15:20right? I'm a big fan of like Ben Sherman
2:15:22and Fred Perry clothes and things like
2:15:24that and I like the the the details are
2:15:26what make those look so cool.
2:15:28>> Well, this felt like a very sort of
2:15:30European designed beautiful book and
2:15:32and also your podcast is incredible. I
2:15:34you know, I have to say so many of the
2:15:36guests that I've had on here are because
2:15:37I listen to your show and I get
2:15:39mind-blown by the guests that you have
2:15:41on your show and then I'm like to my
2:15:43team, "But oh my god, this person is
2:15:44unbelievable. He said this one." And I'm
2:15:45sending your podcast all around.
2:15:46Whenever my someone in my life is really
2:15:48struggling with something, I go out and
2:15:50search
2:15:51usually on YouTube and then I stumble
2:15:52across your channel and find an episode
2:15:53that you've done about that particular
2:15:54thing and I'm always sending them
2:15:56around. So, I highly recommend anyone
2:15:57that subscribes to my channel to go and
2:15:59subscribe over on um your show as well.
2:16:01I'll link it below so everyone can get
2:16:02it.
2:16:03>> So, it turns out Huberman Lab is a sort
2:16:04of gateway drug to Diary of a CDO.
2:16:06[laughter]
2:16:07For science and health content
2:16:10>> legitimately. It's worth being honest
2:16:11about it. Um and you've got to get the
2:16:13book. It's finally here. Um
2:16:15comes out September, so this episode
2:16:17will will air in September, so it should
2:16:18be out now for pre-order or order.
2:16:20You've got to go get it. It's it's the
2:16:22for me the definitive book on this
2:16:24subject. Thank you so much, Andrew.
2:16:25>> Thank you, Stephen. I appreciate
2:16:26>> Love this conversation. I hope to have
2:16:28another conversation sometime soon.
2:16:29>> Yes.
2:16:29>> Thank you. YouTube have this new crazy
2:16:31algorithm where they know exactly what
2:16:33video you would like to watch next based
2:16:35on AI and all of your viewing behavior.
2:16:38And the algorithm says that this video
2:16:41is the perfect video for you. It's
2:16:42different for everybody looking right
2:16:44now. Check this video out and I bet you
2:16:46you might love it.

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