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Andrew Huberman: My Exact Routine To Optimize Brain & Body, I Do All Of These Every Day! — Transcript

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0:00Here's the diabolical thing. The risk of
0:02dying early if you have bright nights
0:04goes up immensely. There have been a lot
0:06of studies on people after 6 p.m. on
0:08devices getting artificial LED exposure.
0:11They live shorter lives. Cancer rates go
0:13[music] up. They're metabolically
0:14unhealthy. But here's the really scary
0:16thing. We have a generation of kids that
0:18are metabolically sick. [music] They
0:20cling to their iPads. They're on
0:21devices. But the problem is most things
0:23are designed to make people do [music]
0:25less of what's good for them. And we
0:26don't talk about this enough. And
0:28Andrew, you're one of the most trusted
0:29voices in health today. And we've waited
0:32many, many years for this protocols, an
0:34operating manual for the human body.
0:36These 10 protocols are well established.
0:38They're the ones that are going to move
0:40the needle the most in terms of one's
0:41mental health, physical health, and
0:43performance. Okay, so let's get into it.
0:45So protocol number one, you want [music]
0:46to get sunlight because exposure each
0:48day to the skin, increases testosterone
0:50and estrogen in both women and men, and
0:52is important for libido. [music]
0:53And then the second, and this is really
0:55key, is to reduce stress fast. And I'll
0:56explain how to do that in a moment. And
0:58then number three, working out with
0:59weights for 45 minutes, taking your sets
1:01near to failure. It will triple or
1:03quadruple your cortisol levels. But a
1:04lot of people have been told, don't
1:05spike your cortisol. It's the stress
1:07hormone, but it's a preparation hormone.
1:09You're preparing for adversity, but also
1:11great things. The next thing, and this
1:12is one of the most valuable skills. If
1:14you do it for 5 minutes per day, you
1:16will experience a significant
1:17improvement in mental and physical
1:18health. And then sleeping on your side,
1:20very important for [music] offsetting
1:21dementia, getting rid of bags under your
1:23eyes. But Stephen, the number one thing
1:25that you need to know about is the
1:27moment I started, my life got so much
1:29better [music] and I really started to
1:31see what I could only describe as
1:32miracles. Andrew, I have this
1:34outstanding question that I have to ask
1:35you. You don't really talk in depth
1:36about supplements. I Oh, I do. I go ham.
1:39>> So, you can only do five for the rest
1:40[music] of your life.
1:40>> Oh gosh. I highly recommend getting a
1:47>> This is super interesting to me. My team
1:49given me this report to show me how many
1:50of you that watch this show subscribe.
1:52And some of you have told us according
1:53to this that you are unsubscribed from
1:55the channel randomly. So favor to ask
1:57all of you, please could you check right
1:59now if you've hit the subscribe button
2:00if you are a regular viewer of the show
2:02and you like what we do here. We're
2:03approaching quite a significant landmark
2:05on this show in terms of a subscriber
2:06number. So if there was one simple free
2:09thing that you could do to help us, my
2:11team, everyone here to keep this show
2:13free, to keep it improving year over
2:15year and week over week, it is just to
2:16hit that subscribe button and to double
2:18check if you've hit it. Only thing I'll
2:19ever ask of you, do we have a deal? If
2:21you do it, I'll tell you what I'll do.
2:23I'll make sure every single week, every
2:25single month, we fight harder and harder
2:27and harder and harder to bring you the
2:28guests and conversations that you want
2:29to hear. I've stayed true to that
2:31promise since the very beginning of the
2:32Dio, and I will not let you down. Please
2:35help us. Really appreciate it. Let's get
2:37on with the show.
2:39[music]
2:41Andrew Huberman, um, we've waited many,
2:44many years for this and now it has
2:47arrived. This is your long-awaited book
2:49called Protocols, an operating manual
2:51for the human body. And inside this
2:53book, I counted roughly 50 different
2:56protocols split across seven different
2:59areas. Um, sleep, exercise, stress
3:01control, nutrition, light, focus,
3:03motivation, and learning, and personal
3:05growth. You've written 10 of the
3:07protocols you want to focus on sharing
3:08today. Can I ask why did you choose
3:10those 10?
3:12They're the ones that are going to move
3:13the needle the most in terms of one's
3:16mental health, physical health, and
3:18quote unquote performance. Your life
3:20will be so much better if you do them.
3:22>> And do they cost a lot of money to do
3:23the 10 that you've picked?
3:25>> No, they could be done either at
3:26completely zero cost or on a existing
3:29budget.
3:29>> And do you do these 10 things
3:31>> every day?
3:32>> Every day.
3:32>> There's one on there that I don't do
3:34every single day. I take off one day per
3:36week, but every single day without fail.
3:38And when you wrote them, did you write
3:40them in order of sequencing?
3:42>> Yeah. Throughout the day, from from
3:43start to finish throughout because this
3:45is the other thing. Protocols synergize.
3:48They ratchet together. How well you
3:49slept last night is dictating how well
3:51you feel now.
3:52>> These are gears in a larger system. One
3:54moves, the other ones move. And while
3:57there is a place for pharmarmacology and
3:59supplements and things that you take,
4:01>> ultimately these gears fit together
4:03based on what you do.
4:04>> Okay. So, let's get into it. What was
4:05the first uh thing that you drew? cuz I
4:07saw there was a picture there.
4:08>> Okay, so in my unelegant drawing, but I
4:11I am a you know biologist, so we're
4:13allowed to do this. I mean, this is
4:14essentially a plot of where you wake up
4:16in the morning and then where you go to
4:17sleep at night, you know, and these are
4:19not hours of the day. These are the
4:21different protocols. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
4:2410. Okay, so um this line represents the
4:28healthy cortisol curve. Most people
4:30don't realize that, but you wake up
4:32because of a rise in cortisol. It's
4:33literally called the cortisol awakening
4:35response. If you've ever woken up 1
4:37minute before your alarm clock, it's
4:38because the cortisol awakening response
4:40is heavily entrainable, meaning it can
4:42be matched to external stimulant. You
4:45want this peak in cortisol as high as
4:47possible in the first 60 minutes of your
4:49day.
4:51Everyone thinks you want low cortisol,
4:53but here's the deal. High cortisol in
4:55the early part of your day is what
4:56provides for elevated mood, focus,
4:59attention, your ability to learn. It's
5:01also what establishes low cortisol in
5:04the afternoon and at night which is a
5:06requirement for falling and staying
5:08asleep.
5:09>> So this peak sets up this trough. So you
5:13want high morning cortisol, low
5:16nighttime cortisol. These represent
5:19melatonin, the hormone of sleepiness. As
5:21we know, if you slept the night before,
5:23then melatonin essentially is low at
5:25morning. And the dash line is adenosine,
5:27which is a downstream product of of the
5:29use of ATP in your cells. The more
5:31you're awake, the more activities you
5:32do, the more you think, adenosine builds
5:34up. That's why you get sleepy.
5:36[clears throat]
5:36>> So, what's very interesting is that when
5:38you spike your morning cortisol, and
5:40I'll explain how to do that in a moment.
5:42And you do that within the first hours
5:43of your day, you also establish a case
5:46where these little blips are stress,
5:49stressful text, stressful event, but
5:50they're brief. We always hear that
5:52cortisol is bad, but our ability to have
5:54big inflections in cortisol, stress out,
5:56and then they come back down to normal
5:58is very very good. If this peak was
6:01high, if this peak is not as high, and
6:04this is kind of a like a medium or or
6:06flat what they call a flattening of the
6:07cortisol curve, you see shorter
6:10lifespan, less recovery from every kind
6:12of illness, and and these stress bouts
6:14last a very long time because they're
6:16riding on a higher baseline. So if your
6:18morning cortisol level is lower or flat,
6:21>> right,
6:22>> then if I get that stressful text during
6:24the day, it will be a longer cortisol
6:27spike. More stress,
6:28>> bigger and longer.
6:29>> Oh wow.
6:30>> And not only that, but there's an
6:32indirect but very important interaction
6:34between cortisol and melatonin. Your
6:35sleepiness hormone doesn't come on and
6:37function as well.
6:39>> And so sleep gets very disrupted. So a
6:41lot of people think, "Oh, I don't want
6:42my morning cortisol high." And a lot of
6:44women in particular have been told,
6:45"Don't spike your cortisol. that's going
6:46to lead to excess visceral fat, moon
6:48face, etc. There's this a condition
6:50called Cushing syndrome, which is a
6:51massive overp production of cortisol.
6:54Very rare condition. I mean, it happens,
6:55but most people are not dealing with
6:57that, right? Most people's morning
6:59cortisol is too low and their afternoon
7:01and nighttime cortisol is too high.
7:02>> How do they know this stuff? Like, how
7:04do they test this?
7:05>> This healthy curve, as it's called, um,
7:07was measured through just consistent
7:09blood draws around the 24-hour cycle.
7:10And then it's been looked at in response
7:12to everything from caffeine to cold
7:14plunges to exercise to sunlight. And
7:17there's this very So protocol number one
7:20is hydrate. Your mind is exceedingly
7:23more sharp when you're well hydrated.
7:25And it actually helps boost your morning
7:27cortisol. There's a very interesting
7:29interaction between when the bladder
7:31being emptied as usually after people
7:33wake up, they use the the restroom, they
7:34urinate, and then hydrating. And there's
7:36an I'll talk about this a few times, but
7:38there's an ascending pathway along the
7:41vagus nerve that serves to wake up the
7:43brain. And part of that has to do with
7:44hydration first thing in the morning.
7:46You awake from bed to urinate in the
7:48middle of the night because of an
7:49arousal phenomenon of hydration and the
7:51bladder being full.
7:52>> When you say hydrate, do you mean
7:54electrolytes or just water?
7:55>> 16 to 32 ounces of good clean water is
7:57fine. If you want to add electrolytes,
7:59great.
7:59>> How much is that? Is that a cup or is
8:01that?
8:01>> Um, this is 16 ounces. Maybe 18 ounces.
8:04>> Okay. So, like a big a big mug. You want
8:06to consume about 80 ounces of water
8:08throughout your day. It's a lot, but you
8:09don't want to cons basically everything
8:11you want to do in the early part of the
8:12day, you want to do less in the evening
8:14part of your day. The next thing, and
8:16this is really key, it could have gone
8:17first, but you want to view sunlight or
8:1910,000 lux artificial light. I could
8:22spend 3 hours talking about this, but
8:23I'll keep it really brief. When you view
8:25sunlight, there's this beautiful
8:27phenomenon. It activates these
8:29melanopsin intrinsically photosensitive
8:30ganglen cells. You know, the major focus
8:33of my work for many, many years. So I'll
8:35resist saying more. They literally
8:37extend physical wires that we call axons
8:39into your hypothalamus. Your master
8:41circadian clock resides there. We call
8:42that your super chaismatic nucleus. And
8:45when you view low solar angle sunlight,
8:48sun low in the sky, there's an abundance
8:50of yes UV, but it's lower when it's low
8:53in the sky. You actually can look at the
8:54morning sun more easily than you can the
8:55overhead sun. Why? The morning sun looks
8:58more yellow, orange, or even some red
8:59tones
9:00>> compared to the overhead sky. Well, the
9:02light coming from the sky is the same,
9:04right? But the specific wavelengths of
9:07light, as we call them, that are coming
9:08from the sun when it's low in the sky
9:10are the optimal stimulus for these
9:12melanops and intrinsically
9:13photosensitive cells that tell your
9:15central clock it's time to wake up. The
9:17day is beginning. Okay. There's also
9:20something incredible that happens if you
9:22get bright light in your eyes in that
9:23first ideally 30 minutes but even 60
9:26minutes of your day which it there are
9:28two pathways by which your brain
9:30circadian clock wakes you up. One is it
9:33sends signals through peptides it
9:35releases and neural signals but it's
9:37able to activate what we call the HPA
9:39axis hypothalamus pituitary gland which
9:41is sort of hangs outside the brain and
9:43then adrenals you release adrenaline
9:46there's a unique window that passes
9:48after about an hour following waking
9:51where your supercismatic clock can
9:53trigger an alternate pathway that
9:55literally goes down your spinal column
9:57and triggers your adrenals to release
10:00additional cortisol. In fact, viewing
10:02sunlight in the first hour of your day
10:04takes this peak. Here's what it would
10:05look like if you didn't view bright
10:07light in the first hour of your day. It
10:10would be here, which is bad. And your
10:12stress responses then would be bigger
10:14and longer.
10:16This
10:17increase in cortisol is driven by
10:19viewing sunlight. Now, when I say
10:22sunlight, people say, especially in the
10:23UK, they'll say there's no sun where I
10:24live. Okay, this could easily see say
10:27daylight. Why? Because there's always
10:30daylight out. If you look at how bright
10:33it is on an overcast day in the middle
10:35of December, even in the UK at 8:00 a.m.
10:38versus midnight the night before, it's
10:41different.
10:42>> Mhm.
10:42>> You know, it's obvious when there's
10:44overcast skies, less of the long
10:46wavelength light, the oranges and reds
10:47are coming through. But you want
10:50daylight in your eyes in the first hours
10:51of your day. Go out on your balcony if
10:53that's all you can do. If you're in a
10:54car, roll down the window. It's not good
10:56to try and do this through a window or
10:57windshield. There's so much data showing
11:00that spiking your morning cortisol this
11:02way establishes low cortisol and high
11:05sleepiness hormones let's call them at
11:07night which is great buffers stress and
11:10moreover kickstarts your immune system
11:12to protect you against bacteria and
11:14viruses you can encounter during the day
11:16it is great for your metabolism mood
11:18ability to learn and on and on and in
11:20the book I explain a number of different
11:21ways how this peak relates to this
11:23trough if people are interested but if
11:26you don't have access to sunlight or
11:28daylight light. Having a using a 10,000
11:30lux artificial light can be very
11:31beneficial. These 10,000 lux lights have
11:34been shown to significantly
11:37offset the symptoms of seasonal
11:39effective disorder, etc. But what we're
11:41finding from this huge study from the UK
11:43bio bank is that you want bright days
11:46and you want dark nights and they're
11:49additive. So having bright days is great
11:51for your mental health and physical
11:52health along a huge number of
11:54parameters. Significantly improves them.
11:56But having dark, even if you were in dim
11:58light all day, making it dark at night,
12:01people are healthier. The risk of dying
12:03early, if you have bright nights, goes
12:05up immensely. And we don't talk about
12:07this enough. If you don't have access to
12:09enough daylight, like you wake up before
12:11the sun comes out and you're up for 2
12:12hours, let's say before the sun comes
12:14out. I highly recommend getting a 10,000
12:16lux artificial light.
12:17>> And last time we spoke, you took me
12:18outside after the conversation and you
12:20had an app on your phone,
12:21>> right? Light meter. I have no relation
12:23to the app, but I use it. And that is
12:25able to tell you how much lux of light
12:27you're getting at the moment.
12:28>> But it's additive. So one thing that's
12:29important to note is let's say you miss
12:31a day, right? The next day get outside
12:33for twice as long. How long should you
12:35do it on a very clear morning with the
12:37sun rising? And by the way, you don't
12:38need to see the sun cross the horizon.
12:40You can just wait till it's elevated but
12:42it's low in the sky. People who are
12:45concerned about UV damage should know
12:47that when the sun is low in the sky, the
12:48UV index is much lower. And there's a
12:51reason for that. It's a phenomenon
12:52called relay scattering. Sunrises and
12:55sunsets are very beautiful and colorful.
12:56When the sun's overhead, it's hard to
12:57look at. It's this big ball of light.
12:59It's so bright because you're getting
13:01all the wavelengths, the UV all the way
13:03out to the infrared coming at you in
13:05more or less equal intensities. When the
13:07sun is low in the sky, the UV is it's
13:10not completely scattered, but not as
13:13much of that is is reaching your eyes.
13:14Much lower risk of sunburn, much lower
13:16risk of eye damage, and so on. So,
13:18here's the diabolical thing. Your
13:20screens are not nearly bright enough to
13:23kickstart this increase in cortisol in
13:25the morning, but they are very capable
13:28of increasing your cortisol levels at
13:30night because the this low level of
13:32cortisol makes you vulnerable to big
13:35increases in cortisol. It's a little bit
13:36of a detail that I explain in the book,
13:38but
13:39>> I was going to say on this point, is it
13:40just exposing my eyes to the light or
13:42does my body need to be exposed to it?
13:44>> Great point. And one of the protocols in
13:46there, it's not one of the 10 I listed,
13:47is about the importance of getting
13:49sunlight on as much of your skin as
13:50possible as is socially appropriate. Uh,
13:53beautiful work from Glen Jeffy's lab at
13:55University College London. You know, I
13:56can believe this. They do a glucose
13:58tolerance test. So they fast people,
13:59they have them drink a glucose drink.
14:00They measure how fast a blood sugar
14:02rises. And if they shine red light, so
14:06long wavelength is red is long
14:08wavelength light
14:09>> like that. Like that.
14:10>> Yeah. Like this would be medium
14:11wavelength because it's yellow. A red
14:13would be um so this is probably I'm
14:15guessing somewhere between 500 and 600
14:18nanometers of light and red would be
14:20probably somewhere between 580 and 700
14:23and then infrared goes out further you
14:25know into the 800s and thousand. The sun
14:27emits all of those. Okay, so this is
14:29long wavelength light. Okay. So, they
14:31shine a long wavelength light on
14:33people's backs and they do the glucose
14:34tolerance test and and they observe a
14:37more than 25% reduction in the peak and
14:41they also look at the rate of rise of
14:42blood glucose. It's buffering blood
14:44glucose rise which we know is a good
14:45thing.
14:46>> Just to summarize, they shine red light
14:48on someone's back while they have a
14:49glucose shot and their glucose spike is
14:51lower.
14:52>> That's right. And you can do this onto
14:53bare skin or you can do it through a
14:54t-shirt. Turns out that these people's
14:56metabolism rose significantly. Why? How?
15:00Well, long wavelength light can actually
15:03go into and through your body. It can it
15:06gets absorbed and it can go about 8
15:08centimeters into the body. Red light
15:11wavelength light of infrared can pass
15:12all the way through the body. They show
15:14that beautifully in this study. So
15:16that's not good. No, it's fantastic
15:18because along the way it makes
15:20confirmational changes in the way that
15:22your mitochondria handle the electrons.
15:25Basically this long wavelength infrared
15:27light that comes from the sun. It's the
15:29heat that you feel from the sun or from
15:30a long wavelength light device allows is
15:34so amazing. It actually allows your
15:36mitochondria to to function more
15:39effectively, more efficiently. Now, it's
15:41not to say that short wavelength light,
15:43blues and greens and ultraviolet light
15:45are bad. We need ultraviolet light. We
15:47need it on our skin to make vitamin D.
15:49What you want is full spectrum balanced
15:51light, but not so much UV that you get a
15:54sunburn. And you don't want a lot of
15:56shortwavelength light in the absence of
15:58long wavelength light. Best way to do
16:00that, sunlight in the early and later
16:01part of the day because the UV index is
16:03low. You're getting the full spectrum.
16:06Indoor LED lights like this, which we
16:07all spend a lot of time under. There's
16:09now evidence from from Glen Jeffy's lab
16:11and others that it actually may damage
16:13the mitochondria. We talked about
16:15melatonin coming coming from the pineal
16:17gland that makes you sleepy at night.
16:18You also have melatonin in most all of
16:20the cells of your body. And there it
16:22doesn't make you sleepy. serves as an
16:24antioxidant but it's sort of captured
16:26and the way to liberate it is through
16:29long wavelength light. So you have a
16:30protective mechanism that's kicked on
16:32with long wavelength light that protects
16:34you protects you against the oxidative
16:36stress and damage to cells
16:38>> and this has many many positive effects.
16:41So Glenn's lab has done experiments
16:43where they literally take in a light
16:44like this and they have people look at
16:45it like this for one to three minutes a
16:48couple times a week. They look at people
16:50different ages, different eye
16:51conditions. He's a serious vision
16:53scientist, right? He's not he's not a
16:54biohacker. He's not he's has no interest
16:56in commercial products actually,
16:59although sometimes I wish he did. People
17:02over 40 who experience age related
17:04vision loss, we all do a little bit,
17:06experience improvements in vision when
17:08they do this simple thing. And why would
17:10that be? Well, it turns out that your
17:12photo receptors, which absorb light and
17:14convert it into electrical signals that
17:15allow you to see, are the most
17:17mitochondrial rich and metabolically
17:19active cells in your entire body. Now,
17:21biologists love to play this game where
17:23they go, "Your tongue is the most
17:25metabolically active." Then they go,
17:27"No, you're you." Everyone makes a claim
17:28on this. The photo receptors, my
17:30friends, are the most metabolically
17:32active cells in your entire body. So,
17:33they have a ton of mitochondria, and
17:36they need to protect themselves against
17:37the oxidative damage that comes with
17:39generating a bunch of downstream
17:41products from ATP. So, long wavelength
17:44light is what protects us in this. So
17:46you can see significant improvements in
17:47vision for people that view long
17:49wavelength light couple times a week.
17:51But only in people older than 40. And
17:53get this, only in people that do that in
17:56the first 3 hours of their day.
17:58>> What?
17:59>> Yes. Your eyes and your body and brain
18:01are not the same at this first third of
18:04your day versus this middle third of
18:05your day versus the last third of your
18:07day and at night. They're not. Your
18:10sensitivity to bright light causing bad
18:13effects on you after sundown increases.
18:16Not immediately, but it increases
18:18gradually. Your need for bright light in
18:20your eyes in the early part of the of
18:22the day is immense. You need this. You
18:26you want this. And if you miss a day,
18:27get out the next day and view some more
18:29light. You asked, will light to other
18:30parts of the body work? Not for setting
18:33this system in motion, but it's a great
18:35idea to get out two to three times per
18:37week when the UV index is low. you can
18:38just look on your phone what's the UV
18:40index and in general be the early or the
18:42or the later half of your day when the
18:44UV index is lower and to get out and get
18:46some light onto your skin. You don't
18:48have to be naked or in a swimsuit. Great
18:50if you are and that's appropriate, but
18:52you can also just wear a t-shirt because
18:53the long wavelength light will go all
18:55the way through. So Glenn Jeffrey and
18:56Robert Roger Schwelt, he's a physician
18:59who talks about the immense benefits of
19:01getting sunlight onto the skin for
19:05getting over disease for state for
19:07enhancing immune system function and on
19:09and on.
19:10>> Can you because there's going to be a
19:11lot of people right now that are going
19:12to go buy a red light lamp.
19:13>> Not necessary.
19:14>> Not necessary.
19:15>> No. Sunlight. Pink Floyd. Pink Floyd
19:17album.
19:18>> Pass sunlight through a prism. It bends
19:21the light and you see the rainbow. Red,
19:23orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo,
19:24violet. But also in that sunlight is
19:27ultraviolet light, some UVB exposure
19:29each day to the skin, increases
19:31testosterone and estrogen in both women
19:33and men and is important for libido. It
19:36actually reinforces romantic
19:38relationships for reasons other than uh
19:40sexual interactions, um attractiveness,
19:43etc. Strong effects. So sunlight has it
19:45all. What you don't want is to go
19:47outside when there's so much UV that you
19:48get a sunburn. And you don't want to
19:52think that, you know, red light's the
19:54only light you need. You want that
19:55warmth from from the sun. And it gets
19:57better because and notice I'm I'm sort
19:58of like it gets better like a salesman.
20:00I'm selling nature. Okay, I'm telling
20:02you when you go outside and there's a
20:04lot of greenery. Greenery reflects long
20:08wavelength red and infrared light. Throw
20:10on some infrared goggles and you're not
20:12going to do this, but you look and they
20:13all that stuff would be glowing white in
20:15those goggles. Greenery reflects down
20:19infrared light. How do you know it
20:20reflects light? I'm stealing Roger's
20:23words as I say this, but where's the
20:24coolest place to be on a hot day? Under
20:26a tree. Why is that? Because it's
20:28reflecting the heat, the infrared light.
20:30But when you're out in greenery, you're
20:32getting all that long wavelength light,
20:34and it bounces around and it goes
20:36through you. So, get out into nature,
20:37walk outside. If you work and live in a
20:40city, get outside, take off a brimmed
20:42hat because you do want the the sun
20:43getting down onto your onto your face.
20:45People are so terrified about
20:47accelerating aging based on UV, but
20:49we're not talking about baking yourself
20:50in UV light all day. The the health
20:53benefits of this are immense. There's a
20:55Swedish study that actually showed that
20:56the more sunlight people got, the longer
20:58they lived, in fact, smokers who got a
21:01lot of sunlight, this isn't my favorite
21:03study, but um but we have to admit it's
21:05there, lived longers than non-smokers
21:08who didn't get enough sunlight. There
21:09and there are other things too like
21:11exercise, etc., but don't smoke, but get
21:13sunlight. There'll be a lot of night
21:14shift workers listening.
21:16>> I have a section specifically for night
21:17shift workers because
21:20here are the two scariest things. Night
21:23shift workers
21:24live shorter lives. Cancer rates go up.
21:27They're metabolically unhealthy. And
21:30it's very hard to mitigate. But I
21:32provide some tools specifically for
21:33night shift workers and for jet lag, by
21:35the way, because people travel. Here's
21:38the really scary thing. you and I
21:41qualify as night shift workers because
21:43the studies on night shift work, barring
21:45some of the more extreme ones, was most
21:47of them were on how many people after
21:506:00 p.m., right, are on devices getting
21:54artificial LED exposure or doing
21:56activities besides eating and
21:58socializing with their family or in bed.
22:00If you work at night at home, you're
22:02still a night shift worker. You don't
22:03have to work all night to be a night
22:05shift worker. So, we have a generation
22:07of kids that are metabolically sick. And
22:10I don't like to be one of these like
22:11fearmonger people, but here's the cool
22:14thing. I'm going to skip because we're
22:15on to this. I'm going to skip to number
22:17six.
22:18>> Okay.
22:18>> Okay. As the sun is going down, you
22:21don't have to watch the sunset. That
22:23would be cool to watch the sun. Everyone
22:24loves sunsets.
22:25>> But try and get some daylight in your
22:27eyes in the late afternoon or evening.
22:29If you're going to be working indoors
22:31from like after lunch until nightfall,
22:33try and get near a window. Do your best.
22:34Go out on a balcony, take a quick walk
22:36around the building, do what you can to
22:37get some sunlight in your eyes without
22:39sunglasses. When you get some sunlight
22:41in your eyes in the late part of your
22:43day, let's just say in the last third of
22:45your day, and the clock times don't
22:47matter here cuz we all get up and go to
22:48sleep at different times. You buffer
22:51those cells in your eye against the
22:54negative effects of artificial light at
22:56night. This is your Netflix o
22:58inoculation, as I call it. Like you can
23:01be on your computer at 9 or 10 at night
23:03without it damaging your melatonin
23:05levels quite as much, without it
23:06disrupting your blood glucose levels and
23:08your sleep if you get some bright light
23:10in your eyes in the later part of your
23:12day. But there's one population of
23:14people for whom this doesn't work and it
23:16seems to be adolescence. You can't
23:18buffer them against the negative effects
23:20of screen light at night. What happens
23:21if you use screen light at night? You
23:23get big bumps in cortisol and people
23:25say, "Well, I can fall asleep just fine
23:27after being on my iPad or screen." True,
23:30some people don't have as much of a
23:31negative effect from blue light at
23:33night, but the blood glucose effects and
23:36the next morning cortisol effects are
23:39the problem. Remember I said high
23:40cortisol sets you up for low cortisol.
23:42>> Yeah.
23:43>> Low cortisol sets you up for high
23:44cortisol. So you've got a population of
23:47people, kids who have their cortisol is
23:49slightly but significantly higher in the
23:50evening and at night because they're on
23:52devices and the next morning their
23:54cortisol levels are struggling to get
23:56up. M
23:58>> you know this is a tough one because
24:00teens socialize that way and you don't
24:02want to take their phones away and they
24:03cling to their iPads like you know like
24:05my new bulldog strummer clings to a chew
24:08toy you know it's like you can take it
24:10away from them but like they hate you
24:11for it. So I said view daylight cuz you
24:13can't always see the sun but even if
24:15it's overcast just get out for a few
24:16minutes and take a walk your sleep will
24:18be better.
24:18>> I feel like I'm [clears throat] giving a
24:19lecture in class.
24:20>> That's amazing. That's what I want.
24:21>> So we said hydrate sunlight. And then
24:23number three, I know everyone's heard
24:25it, but if you can exercise in the first
24:283 to four hours of your day, you could
24:30do it in the afternoon without problem,
24:32but there's a huge advantage to doing
24:34cardiovascular resistance training in
24:35the first 3 hours of your day.
24:37>> Cardiovascular or resistance training.
24:39>> Yeah. And in the book, I devote an
24:41entire chapter, chapter 2, to exercise.
24:43And I explain what I think personally is
24:45the best way to structure an exercise
24:46program for somebody who doesn't want to
24:48be the most jacked, but wants muscle and
24:50definition and strength. somebody that
24:53doesn't need to run a marathon for a
24:54record time, but wants endurance.
24:56Somebody who wants to be able to sprint
24:58reasonably fast and has middle distance
25:00ability, too. And it's basically
25:02structured. You either lift or do cardio
25:04on alternating days, three days total of
25:06lifting. Warm up reasonably low volume
25:09of work sets, two to three work sets per
25:11exercise, emphasizing compound
25:14movements. So, not a like a preacher
25:16curl or a tricep kickback. Those are
25:18fine, but you're going to get a lot more
25:20bang for your buck if you're doing
25:22pull-ups, rows, dips,
25:24>> multiple muscles at once,
25:25>> multiple joints moving at once as
25:27compound. Um, some hip hinge movement.
25:29So, could be squat, hack squat, some
25:31deadlifts, and I talk about how to get
25:33specific aesthetic effects in there,
25:35too. I mean, I'm by no means an exercise
25:37physiologist, but I've been resistance
25:38training since I was 16. I'm I'm now 50.
25:40I'll be 51 in a month, so I feel great.
25:43cardio at the start if you're doing
25:44resistance training or not at all.
25:46>> I warm up for 5 minutes of cardio and
25:47then resistance train, but I do the
25:49cardio on alternate days. Three days
25:51total of cardio. One day of cardio is
25:53long and slow for about an hour. One is
25:54about 30 minutes at moderate intensity.
25:56One is a short one like I did this
25:58morning. Jumped on the air bike, pedal
26:01easy for a minute, then go all out for
26:0230 seconds, easy for 10, 30, 10, 30, 10,
26:0630, 10, and then you're off the bike.
26:07Basically max heart rate training. Yeah.
26:09>> And the day after leg day, if you do
26:11your legs right, take a rest day.
26:13>> Yeah. But the here's the interesting
26:15thing about exercise. You notice I
26:17didn't say deliberate cold exposure.
26:20>> You [clears throat] want to blow some
26:21minds? I will go toe-to-toe with anybody
26:24on the internet or off the internet.
26:26Deliberate cold exposure does not raise
26:28cortisol.
26:30This much. It's amazing to me that the
26:33same people that are suggesting moderate
26:34to high-intensity exercise are saying
26:36that deliberate cold exposure raises
26:38cortisol. is simply not true. Not true
26:40for women cuz a lot of people said, "Is
26:42your book going to be for women and
26:43men?" I distinguish between data when
26:45there are data showing that it's
26:46different for women and men. I
26:47acknowledge when there's no data in
26:48women and the data are very clear in
26:51women and men, trivial increases in
26:53cortisol, magnificent huge increases in
26:56adrenaline, norepinephrine, and dopamine
26:58from deliberate cold exposure. And that
27:01those so so-called catakolamines are
27:03great to have rolling into your day.
27:04They're the things of alertness and
27:05focus. The appropriate stressor for
27:07cortisol, appropriate meaning the one
27:09that you want, is a psychological
27:10stressor. We know that.
27:12>> Working out with weights for 45 minutes,
27:14taking your sets near to failure, going
27:16for a run for 30 minutes. So, the point
27:19being, if you do this exercise in the
27:22first three hours of your day, you're
27:24getting a big inflection in cortisol.
27:26Again, this is what you want. Now, some
27:29people can't exercise first thing in the
27:30day. They either don't want to or they
27:33can't by way of schedule. And if you go
27:35into exercise in the later part of your
27:37day, that's fine. Your cortisol will
27:38come back down. You can do some long
27:39exhale breathing to slow your heart
27:41rate. Andy Galpin talks about that. Take
27:43a hot shower, which paradoxically lowers
27:46your core body temperature. And then
27:47helps you sleep. When you heat up the
27:49surface of your body,
27:50>> you have a thermostat in your brain
27:51called the medial preoptic area, and it
27:53goes, "Oh, the surface of my body is
27:56warm. I should probably cool my core
27:57body temperature down." And you fall
27:58asleep better. You know, this is like
28:00the the putting socks on effect or the
28:02hot bath effect, right? I assume a
28:04massage or something like that also.
28:05>> Great. You have access to that in the
28:07last hour of your day. Like uh we need
28:09to learn more about your life.
28:10[laughter]
28:11>> My fiance used to be a masseuse for many
28:13years. So she
28:14>> awesome.
28:15>> So when you exercise for a few days
28:18early in the first three hours of your
28:20day, let's say you do that two times.
28:22The next morning you wake up feeling a
28:25little bit more willing to exercise. Did
28:26your willpower change? Well, in some
28:28sense, yes. But what happened was your
28:30cortisol entrainment mechanisms changed.
28:32Your superc kaismatic nucleus all day is
28:35clocking what you're doing. Let's say
28:36you eat like 9, 12, snack at 3 and 6:30.
28:40You have a food anticipatory signal. You
28:42have ghrein is secreted makes you
28:44hungry. We are clocks and the
28:46synchronization of those clocks is very
28:48very important. When you exercise at
28:49roughly the same time of day, early in
28:51the day, you will have more energy to
28:53exercise in the first 15 minutes before
28:55that. You'll notice you kind of start
28:57stirring around. Yes, part of it is
28:58cognitive, but a lot of it actually is
29:01your brain is anticipating
29:04exercises coming. Oh, cool. That's why I
29:06I teach neuro anatomy, so this is fun.
29:09>> I have a a brain here in front of me. It
29:11does open up in case you want to open it
29:12up. But you just reminded me of
29:14something.
29:15>> You reminded me of something that I saw
29:16you talk about, which was the anterior
29:18mid-sulate cortex.
29:20>> And I think you described this as being
29:22one of the most interesting
29:24>> discoveries of neuroscience. So
29:26singulate cortex I mean it's not
29:28directly exposed here but the anterior
29:31mids singulate cortex would sit
29:32somewhere like there this is an amazing
29:36structure right I mean just to remind
29:39people like when we feel some sort of
29:42pressure social pressure physical
29:44pressure that we hate and we decide I'm
29:49going to lean into this like I'm going
29:50to compete or I'm going to push through
29:52this internal or external resistance
29:55neurons in the anterior midsulate cortex
29:57are just firing away and if that area is
29:59stimulated my colleague Joe Parvevesy at
30:02Stanford showed this he's a neurosurgeon
30:04people say I feel like a challenge is
30:06coming on and I'm going to lean into it
30:08this is the brain area of tenacity
30:11and the amazing thing is it has
30:13connections all over the brain with
30:15reward systems etc so it's collecting
30:17information about when it gets activated
30:20what's going on in the world that makes
30:22you feel pressure when you feel like
30:23pushing back when you don't but the Best
30:25part is it is highly subject to
30:27plasticity. People who diet successfully
30:31their anterior mids singulate cortex
30:33gets bigger and more active. People who
30:36embark on a new exercise program adding
30:39some component of exercise. For me it's
30:40mobility work because I've got a little
30:42stiff over the years. I know. So when
30:44you do something that you don't want to
30:47do, that you don't reflexively do, your
30:49anterior midsulate cortex gets bigger
30:51and more willing to engage in
30:53challenging things going forward.
30:54>> Yeah. So that's the key point, which is
30:56that sets you up to be able to do more
30:58challenging things in the future.
31:00>> That's right. Why would you do
31:02deliberate cold exposure? I'll tell you
31:04why. Because your ability to sit calmly
31:08or even not so calmly when your system
31:10is flooded with adrenaline and
31:11norepinephrine and to be able to trigger
31:13that with cold water safely like cold
31:15shower, getting into a cold ice bath,
31:17it's safe as long as it's not so cold.
31:18As long as you're not hyperventilating
31:19beforehand on purpose, that carries over
31:22to your ability to keep your head
31:24straight when other things trigger
31:26adrenaline. You don't get 10 stress
31:28systems, you get one. And stress looks
31:30like your adrenaline goes and it comes
31:33down slowly. This is a hallmark of
31:34stress. Cortisol goes up goes down.
31:37Right? So the Oh, you are prepared, my
31:39friend. My goodness, you should be a
31:41university professor. You want to teach
31:43with me at Stanford? So I came up with a
31:45model for arousal, right? People hear
31:47arousal and they think, "Oh, it's got to
31:48be romantic arousal." It can be, but
31:50arousal is really just how alert or
31:52sleepy you are. So you can be really
31:54sleepy, like in a coma, or you can be in
31:56full-blown panic. Nobody wants that. But
31:58a seesaw is the right analogy here
32:00because we have this thing called the
32:01autonomic nervous system. And the
32:03autonomic nervous system is made up of
32:06two parts, parasympathetic and the
32:09sympathetic nervous system. They're in
32:11different parts of the body. They both
32:13connect to most every organ. But in
32:15general, when you are relaxed, that's
32:18what we call the reflection of
32:20parasympathetic tone going up. When
32:22you're stressed, it's the reflection of
32:24sympathetic tone going up. But as you
32:26get sleepy, your parasympathetic nervous
32:29system starts to dominate a bit. And as
32:31you get really sleepy, it dominates more
32:34when you wake up in the morning. And
32:35then if you do the right things like
32:37hydrate, get sunlight and some exercise,
32:39well then your cortisol goes up and
32:41you're going to be more alert. The
32:43ability to navigate stress of all kinds
32:48depends on your ability to do what I
32:49call is control the tightness of this
32:52hinge. When you train your ability to
32:56think, breathe, stay calm, when your
32:59system is flooded with adrenaline and
33:01that happens later in a way that was
33:03nonvoluntary, something happened that
33:05you didn't want to happen, your brain
33:07immediately flits to the understanding
33:09of that place and you are able to
33:11maintain thoughtfulness. You can know to
33:14not speak. That's often the best thing
33:15you can do. You know to react or not
33:17react. In fact, when you get into a cold
33:20plunge, one of the beautiful things
33:21about cold is that your prefrontal
33:23cortex that's involved in strategy
33:25setting and making meaning out of what's
33:27going on, its activity is greatly
33:30suppressed for the first 20 to 30
33:32seconds. Know this about every stressful
33:35circumstance. In the first 20 to 30
33:37seconds, you are brain damaged. You are
33:40brain damaged. You're you are in that
33:42mode of like you could react physically.
33:44Sometimes that can save your life, but
33:46most times you just don't want to do
33:48anything. Step out of the way of the
33:50car, get away from the aggressor,
33:51whatever. But most times you're best off
33:53not saying a darn thing. And then your
33:56prefrontal cortex slowly starts coming
33:57back online. And then you're back again
33:59cuz you're ruminating, you know? And
34:00>> this is good relationship advice.
34:02>> Very good relationship advice.
34:02[laughter] I wish I had learned it long
34:04ago. Right. Actually, last night I
34:06looked on Twitter and I saw something
34:07that was both perplexing and a little
34:08bit upsetting to me. And I went to sleep
34:10like, I know how to deal with this. Some
34:12long exhale breathing, which will slow
34:13your heart rate. and we'll talk about
34:14that. But I woke up this morning, turns
34:16out it was a complete misunderstanding
34:19and everything was reversed. But last
34:20night I thought about sending a text,
34:23but I thought later at night the
34:25prefrontal cortex is already diminished.
34:27This is why stress feels so much harder
34:29to deal with at night
34:30>> and prefrontal cortex. We should
34:32describe that logic and stuff.
34:34>> So um frontal cortex, so here it's
34:36logical. You have the frontal and motor
34:39areas here. And your prefrontal cortex
34:41is basically a big patch of real estate
34:43behind your forehead that in humans is
34:45greatly expanded compared to in other
34:49mammals. I don't like calling them
34:50lower, but they have less prefrontal
34:52cortex. So, they're more driven by their
34:53impulses. One of the most incredible
34:55things that every child and adult needs
34:58to develop is what's called top- down
34:59inhibition. You feel an impulse, but you
35:03resist the impulse. M
35:05>> in fact the way I've mostly trained my
35:07dog strummer because it works is I
35:10taught him at 9 weeks of age put down a
35:12piece of food of course he goes for it
35:14he loves food and you teach him wait and
35:16he sits there and you teach him to look
35:18at you and then now he I can have him
35:20moving toward a piece of food and I say
35:22wait and his nose can be this far and
35:24he'll just stop. He has great top- down
35:26inhibition. Is it about food? No. Am I
35:28trying to torture him? Of course not.
35:30It's so that if I say wait, he can
35:32suppress his arousal.
35:35>> This is one of the most valuable skills.
35:37And people with frontal damage show an
35:39inability to do that, which is why
35:40sometimes they're violent or they say
35:42inappropriate things. People who are
35:44tired, stressed, drunk, prefrontal
35:47cortex activity is suppressed. Get in a
35:50cold shower. First 20, 30 seconds, it's
35:52kind of fun. You're you're like, here I
35:54am with less of a brain than I had
35:57getting in. And then 30 seconds later
36:00you're like, I can do this.
36:01>> This explains why you do things tired.
36:03>> Don't do things tired. Don't say things
36:05tired. Impulse control is way worse.
36:08>> So when I heard you talk about the
36:09anterior mids singular cortex and that
36:10there was this part of the brain that
36:12was kind of like the willpower or you
36:14described it then as the tenacity
36:15muscle. It completely changed my
36:18relationship with hard things because it
36:20made me realize at some sort of like I
36:22guess some conceptual level that every
36:24hard thing I overcome is better
36:27equipping me like when I you know curl
36:29weights in the gym to do harder things
36:32tomorrow.
36:32>> Yes.
36:32>> When I heard other oh there's like a
36:34neurological I'm making a neurological
36:36investment in my future and then you
36:38talked there about doing voluntary
36:40difficult things like the cold plunge
36:42whatever
36:43>> or learning a new language. It can be
36:45cognitive in nature. It can be learning
36:47to dance if that's stressful for you.
36:49And it can be anything that creates some
36:52resistance for you, internal resistance,
36:55anything of that sort. This is a a
36:57beautiful structure because it's wired
36:58into cognitive capacities and our
37:01ability to build them and challenges
37:02with that to emotional challenges.
37:04>> We're kind of optimizing our lives
37:05towards comfort though, aren't we?
37:07That's like a winning formula is more
37:09comfortable things.
37:11>> I think Jack Dorsey said it best.
37:12There's this great video of him online.
37:14It was it was a small lecture that he
37:16was giving where he said anytime we
37:18exchange ourselves, our money, our time
37:20for convenience, we are almost always
37:22giving up something that's like
37:23fundamentally useful for us
37:25neurologically. And it's okay to do. I
37:28order food on Door Dash cuz there's
37:30great food and I don't have a lot of
37:32time to cook. I'd like to devote my time
37:33to other things. I'm trading for
37:35convenience. But if you're aware of the
37:37trade-off, you're much better off. And
37:40the real question is what you're going
37:42to do with that additional time. While
37:43I'm against, you know, overoptimization
37:46to the point that it pulls you out of
37:47life, like it diminishes life, I am all
37:49for striving and optimization quote
37:52unquote in ways that allow you to lean
37:54into the rest of your life with more
37:55vigor. I think Arthur Brooks says it
37:57best. You know I mean we are wired and
37:59meaning comes from striving and within
38:02striving is some struggle and within
38:04struggle is also the release from
38:06struggle and that's also very uh
38:09satisfying. Here's the overoptimization
38:12thing to me in a nutshell which is
38:15there are people for whom doing two of
38:18the things I described for 5 minutes
38:20each per day will experience a
38:22significant improvement in their mental
38:23and physical health. There are people
38:24for whom they're sort of like junkyard
38:26dogs. They can live on anything. They
38:28have a ton of vigor and they're going be
38:29like, "Yeah, I didn't feel that much
38:30from like drinking some water and
38:31getting sunlight." Cool. I got you.
38:33You're one of those people who can fall
38:34asleep in front of the screen, get up,
38:35and just keep going on a, you know,
38:37sugary muffin and something like great.
38:40>> But everyone can afford to take a look
38:42at what they're doing now and try and
38:44move the needle toward more vigor,
38:47well-being,
38:49happiness, peace by doing certain
38:51things.
38:51>> Do you become more sensitive to the
38:53thing when you stop doing the thing?
38:55>> Depends on the thing. So, for instance,
38:57if people like I talk about nutrition in
39:00there and all we it's one of the cards I
39:02actually cover everything from the all
39:03meat diet to vegan diets to I really go
39:06into the literature so people can choose
39:08but really if you look at what most
39:10people could benefit from doing and you
39:12could do this with vegan or vegetarian
39:14it's a little harder but the best diet
39:15is going to be the following right not
39:18too many calories not too few that's
39:20individual you can calculate that it's
39:22an easy thing to do but I provide a way
39:23to do that you need to get what's what
39:25are high complete protein to calorie
39:28ratio proteins. This is a concept I came
39:31up with because if you look at the
39:32literature, yes, we need the essential
39:33amino acids. So that's a complete
39:35protein, but you can get that from beans
39:38and rice, but to get 30 g of complete
39:43protein from beans and rice, you're
39:44going to consume about four to five
39:45times as many calories as is required if
39:48you get it from a chicken breast.
39:49>> So this is the the factor that's kind of
39:51obvious, but no one ever talks about. So
39:53you want to eat some high complete
39:54protein to calorie ratio protein. So you
39:57know eggs, lean meat, fish and then
39:59everyone knows you need fiber,
40:01>> right? So vegetables and fruits. But
40:03what I will say is that many people who
40:06remove us starches entirely.
40:08>> Mhm. [clears throat]
40:08>> Or remove vegetables entirely will find
40:10that they their autoimmune issues
40:12resolve and there are reasons for that
40:14and we have to acknowledge that. But
40:16most people should be eating some
40:18vegetables and fruit for micronutrients
40:20and fiber. Low sugar fermented food.
40:22very clear Justin Sonnenberg's work from
40:24Stanford very clear lowers the
40:26inflammatome in fact when they had
40:28people eat more fiber for many people
40:31inflammatory markers went up no one
40:33likes to talk about that especially not
40:35the vegans but too much fiber can be
40:38noxious for some people and
40:40pro-inflammatory so low sugar fermented
40:42foods like sauerkraut kimchi beet kvass
40:45is delicious problem is they tend to be
40:47expensive but you can make your own and
40:49there's recipes online to do these
40:50things I don't want to get into the seed
40:53oil debate. Just eat just use olive oil.
40:55It's delicious. It's relatively
40:57inexpensive nowadays to get real olive
40:59oil. Small amounts of butter. Okay. Like
41:02like why are we even debating seed oils?
41:04It's so dumb. It's like the the seed oil
41:06debate is like the fastest way to kill
41:07neurons that I'm aware of. You know,
41:09it's like so dumb. It's like because the
41:11studies are not well done. You're
41:13comparing a processed food diet that
41:15includes seed oils versus or you're
41:16talking clean seed oils versus a high
41:19meat diet with processed meat. It's a
41:20it's a mess. It's like as a scientist,
41:22you just look at this and you go like
41:23this field sucks.
41:25>> Like it someone wants to have a
41:27magnificent career in science. Go into
41:29the field of nutrition and do some
41:31really good studies because the studies
41:34are a little lousy. 90% of them like you
41:37can look at it. You don't even have to
41:38be trained in nutrition. You go there
41:39five different variables here and four
41:41over here. This is like what you would
41:42call a bad experiment.
41:44>> So olive oil the data are great. It's
41:47impressive. And then starches are great
41:50for fueling muscles and glycogen and
41:53brain, but you don't want to overdo
41:55them. And the way that people tend to
41:56overdo starches is by eating starches
41:59combined with a lot of fats. So
42:02sourdough bread is great. Sourdough
42:03bread with butter is even better if you
42:06ask me. Sourdough bread with equal
42:08amounts of butter and bread, you're
42:09starting to get into problems. It's very
42:11hard for people to go from like to
42:13overeat starches unless they have a lot
42:15of fats with them or sugar with them. on
42:17starches. Is there an impact? I think
42:19I've heard you talk about an impact on
42:20your sleep with what you eat late at
42:22night.
42:23>> Many people who don't eat enough
42:24starches find that they have sleep
42:26issues. And there are reasons for this
42:28because we talk about comfort foods.
42:31>> Typically, people think junk foods when
42:33they think comfort foods, but foods that
42:36increase glucose lower cortisol. H,
42:39that's weird. Starches lower cortisol.
42:42And you want your cortisol low at night.
42:44Helps you fall and stay asleep. Now, you
42:46don't want to eat too close to bedtime.
42:47You also don't want to have gnawing
42:49hunger at bedtime. We talked about that.
42:51But here's the interesting thing. What
42:52is cortisol? We I should have mentioned
42:54this earlier. What is cortisol? Is it a
42:56stress hormone? No. It's a hormone
42:58that's released during stress. But
43:01cortisol's job is not to deal with
43:05stress. Cortisol's job is to mobilize
43:07energy in the body. When cortisol goes
43:10up, glucose is mobilized and other
43:12fuels, too. So when you eat starches,
43:15you buffer cortisol.
43:17There's a very clear relationship here.
43:20So people who are not eating enough
43:22starches who then allow themselves that
43:24bowl of rice or a bowl of pasta in their
43:26final meal of the day or a little bit at
43:27lunch and at dinner, maybe even a bowl
43:29of oatmeal breakfast, they feel more
43:32even psychologically. They have more
43:34physical energy. Sometimes people with
43:36chronic stress issues notice they stop
43:38shaking. People with autoimmune issues
43:40sometimes resolve those because your
43:41cortisol is buffered. Mhm.
43:43>> Because your blood glucose is elevated
43:44and so your body isn't tapping into the
43:46survival system to try and mobilize
43:48glucose. So
43:50>> I have this outstanding question that I
43:51have to ask you. It goes back to the
43:52picture that you drew of the graph.
43:54Where is that one? You said high
43:55cortisol in the morning is a good thing.
43:58>> Yep.
43:58>> So what if I pick up my phone first
44:02thing in the morning and I look at my
44:03worst emails
44:04>> in some sense from the perspective of
44:06spiking your cortisol? Like it's a good
44:08thing. But can you do it outside while
44:10getting sunlight? I was wondering if it
44:12matters like how the cortisol comes
44:13because what if I stress myself out in
44:14the morning? I I really
44:16>> doesn't matter. The problem is the
44:17rumination that comes with stress,
44:19right? So, you know, the nice thing
44:21about physical stressors that we control
44:23like a workout or a cold plunge is that
44:27they have an onset and an offset. And
44:29yes, they start faster than they end,
44:31right? You have stress and it kind of
44:33carries over. You ruminate. But
44:34psychological stressors tend to bang
44:37around in our brain a lot and late at
44:39night and they tend to come back. I will
44:40say this, I think 2027 is going to be
44:43the year that we close the coffin on
44:46this cortisol is bad thing.
44:48>> So, how should I think about cort
44:49cortisol? Because right now, I think of
44:50it as the stress hormone.
44:52>> It's to mobilize energy,
44:53>> okay?
44:54>> So, you can use it,
44:55>> okay?
44:55>> And if you're going to sleep at night,
44:56you don't need to mobilize energy so you
44:58can use it. You need to rest and reset
44:59your body.
45:00>> Okay?
45:01>> Cortisol is an energyromoting
45:04hormone. So if I walk up on stage, my
45:06cortisol level, like before I go up on
45:07stage and there's a big audience,
45:08whatever, my cortisol level is going to
45:09go up then.
45:10>> Yeah. If you're stressed about it, maybe
45:12a little bit more, but it's it's it's a
45:13preparation hormone. You're preparing
45:15for adversity, but also great things.
45:17There are these beautiful studies from a
45:19guy named James McGaw and Larry Cahill,
45:21which showed do you know that if you
45:23want somebody to learn something, you
45:24know what you do? You spike their
45:25cortisol before, during, or after that
45:27thing should work. Why not? Trauma does
45:30that and you never forget. All you do is
45:33work on trying to remove the emotional
45:34load of that traumatic thing.
45:36>> Wait, so if does that mean that someone
45:38who's listening to this podcast right
45:39now in the gym
45:41>> is going to have better knowledge recall
45:42of what we talked about than someone
45:43who's listening in bed?
45:44>> Great question. So I have a a chapter
45:46that's all about learning motivation and
45:48plasticity. And we've all heard exercise
45:51makes your brain better. How? Why? Turns
45:55out it's very important to understand.
45:56There are two ways it does it or at
45:58least two. One is it raises your levels
46:00of arousal. Exercise doesn't make you
46:03smarter. Exercise makes you more alert
46:05coming out of the exercise so you can go
46:07learn things because it turns out you
46:08have to be alert to learn things. In
46:10particular, you need adrenaline and
46:12cortisol elevated to learn things. So
46:15when people say, you know, weightlifting
46:17makes is good for your brain. Cardio is
46:19good for your brain. Turns out long slow
46:21cardio, my endurance friends aren't
46:23going to like this. Not that great for
46:25your brain. It's not bad for your brain,
46:26but it's not that great for your brain.
46:28Turns out an intense weightlifting
46:30session or high-intensity interval
46:31training session in the 4 hours after
46:33that you are primed for learning. Why?
46:36You got a lot of stimulatory molecules
46:39in your body and you can focus better.
46:41>> What about if I'm a podcaster and I want
46:42to be able to ask good questions and use
46:44my mouth and my brain uh in that context
46:47not not necessarily just learning but
46:48performance of my sort of cognition.
46:50>> So the performance curve basically is
46:52inverted to you. If you're not alert
46:54enough, you can't do what you need to
46:55do. If you're too alert, you can't do
46:57what you need to do or learn. So, you
46:59want to be at the top of that inverted
47:00U. And a lot of what learning is about
47:03and a lot of what the intermedulate
47:05cortex is about is getting from I don't
47:07want to do it up to the top of that U.
47:10Then it's usually about not getting too
47:11stressed. Now, I learned the best trick
47:14for this, like the two best tricks. And
47:16in fact, that will take us to number
47:18five. You can use any time of of day,
47:20which is use physiological size to
47:22reduce stress fast. Okay. Okay. So, I
47:24have a a chapter on stress mitigation
47:25and it's got essentially two components.
47:27One is how to limit stress in the
47:29moment.
47:30>> Okay.
47:30>> Very very important to know how to limit
47:32stress in the moment. And here,
47:33>> why is it so important?
47:35>> Oh gosh. Because meditation, great
47:37night's sleep, massage,
47:40social relations, being wellfed,
47:42hydrated, all of that helps you buffer
47:44stress. But when something happens and
47:47your heart rate is too high or you're
47:49shaking and you can't organize your
47:50thoughts in the way you want, none of
47:52that helps. you've gone over the line.
47:55You're too far on the arousal spectrum
47:57towards alert.
47:59And it was about 2016 that I realized
48:03I'm going to take a significant portion
48:04of my lab and work on this problem. I
48:06want to find real time tools for
48:08mitigating stress. So I started hanging
48:09around with people from special
48:10operations who sit in ice baths and cold
48:12water. And they don't actually do ice
48:13baths by the way in the SEAL teams. They
48:15spend a lot of time in cold water during
48:16their training. And I started talking to
48:18people in performance fields in
48:19particular neurosurgeons, people who
48:21deal with life or death circumstances
48:23for many, many years and maintain
48:24immense calm. One of my closest
48:26childhood friends, he's you should have
48:28him on this podcast. It's his name is
48:30Dr. Eddie Chang and he's a neurosurgeon
48:32at UCSF. He's the chair of neurosurgery
48:34and he's brought people out of lockin
48:36syndrome to speak through AI. He's also
48:38a bioengineer. He's also been my friend
48:40since we were 7 years old. And we talk
48:42three times a week these days about
48:45science. And I actually visited his
48:46laboratory and got to see him take a
48:48golf ballized tumor out of a guy's
48:49forebrain while the guy was awake.
48:51>> Wow.
48:52>> Eddie is the calmst guy you'll ever
48:55meet. Why? Because a movement of less
48:57than a millimeter in the wrong direction
48:58for him could cost a patient's life.
49:01People have ways to calm down in real
49:03time. So I teamed up with a colleague,
49:05his name is David Spiegel. He's our uh
49:07at that time he was our associate chair
49:08of psychiatry and he studies hypnosis
49:11but clinical hypnosis for smoking
49:13sessation pain management and anxiety
49:15and I should say mainly Malise Yilz
49:19Balban in my lab did the study she built
49:21this stress lab with VR and stress and
49:25that's a whole other thing and then we
49:26did this study where about a hundred or
49:29so subjects were fixed with um trackers
49:31that measured heart rate and heart rate
49:33variability and sleep and people were in
49:36one of four groups. They either
49:38meditated for 5 minutes a day or they
49:40did box breathing. Inhale, hold, exhale,
49:42hold for 5 minutes. Okay?
49:44>> Like 4 seconds each or something.
49:45>> There's a way you can measure it, which
49:46is the carbon dioxide tolerance test.
49:48Like how well you can control an exhale
49:50will tell you a little bit about how
49:52stressed you are. When you're stressed,
49:53you tend to blow off carbon dioxide very
49:55quickly. And when you're less stressed,
49:56it tends to shift towards long exhales
49:58become easier. So one of the groups, and
50:01then I'll say what the mechanism is, did
50:03cyclic hyperventilation.
50:05Some people call this Wimhof breathing,
50:06tumo breathing, pranayyama breathing.
50:09It's big inhales,
50:11passive exhales. Repeat it for five
50:13minutes. [snorts]
50:15[sighs]
50:16Massively spikes adrenaline, which isn't
50:19a bad thing. You're controlling it
50:20anyway. Does not spike cortisol very
50:22much, incidentally.
50:24And when you do those exhales, you're
50:26blowing off a lot of carbon dioxide, so
50:28it shifts your internal state and tends
50:29to make people very alert. or they did
50:32there was a fourth condition where they
50:33did a double inhale long exhale repeat
50:37the so-called physiological sigh. So
50:39Jack Feldman at UCLA and some other
50:41folks in the 30 1930s had observed that
50:46animals and people when they're very
50:48relaxed would do this kind of strange
50:49pattern of breathing where they would go
50:52[sighs]
50:52[gasps]
50:54it's a double inhale long exhale.
50:57Jack's lab discovers there's a brain
50:59area called the parapacial nucleus which
51:01is specifically there to generate this
51:04double inhale exhale pattern in animals
51:06and in humans wild nature doesn't make
51:10mistakes like that okay turns out there
51:12are two breathing centers one is in
51:15called the pre-bot singer complex named
51:16after a bottle of wine [gasps]
51:20pattern of breathing where you inhale
51:21exhale what that you alternate this
51:24other structure the parapacial nucleus
51:26which we all have is involved in anytime
51:28you double up the inhales or exhales.
51:29And it's involved in breathing while you
51:31speak or sing or eat. And it generates
51:34these physiological size which it turns
51:36out get triggered in environments where
51:39there's not enough oxygen or when you
51:41get claustrophobic or when you get very
51:43stressed, carbon dioxide goes up. Your
51:46brain senses that and it triggers the
51:49gas reflex. That double inhale maximally
51:52inflates the millions, hundreds of
51:54millions of little sacks in the lungs.
51:56And then when you exhale, you offload
51:58the greatest amount of carbon dioxide.
52:00So if you just go,
52:02you're not offloading as much carbon
52:03dioxide. But if you [snorts]
52:07[sighs and gasps]
52:08second short inhale
52:10takes these little sacks in your lungs,
52:12which are like balloons at a kids party,
52:14and they're empty, but they're fluid
52:16lined on the so there's some surface
52:18tension inside them. they're sticking
52:20together. So, you go, it's the double
52:23inhale that opens those up and then you
52:25offload the carbon dioxide. Now, that's
52:28great. But the real magic of deliberate
52:30long exhales is that they slow your
52:33heart rate down through a process called
52:35respiratory sinus arrhythmia. This is
52:38like the most important thing for anyone
52:40exed stress, exercise, sleep, and
52:43wellness because the wild thing is we
52:46have this Vegas nerve. Everyone likes
52:48talk about the vagus nerve. It's a
52:50massive nerve bundle that collects
52:52sensory information and chemical
52:54information from the organs of the body
52:56and sends it up to the brain. Cool. And
52:58it's classified as parasympathetic
53:01calming. But you know what's funny?
53:03Neuroscientists when they want to wake
53:05up and a person during an experiment
53:07like a neurosurgery experiment, they
53:09stimulate the vagus. A treatment for for
53:12depression is to stimulate the Vegas.
53:15Guess what that does? makes people more
53:17alert. So, it's a mixed nerve. But the
53:20really cool part about the vagus is that
53:22it's not all ascending.
53:25The 85% of the information is going up
53:27from the body through the vagus. But
53:29there's another pathway too and it goes
53:31down and it goes down to your heart and
53:35it controls the slowing of the heart
53:38rate when you exhale. Heart rate
53:41variability is the slowing of your heart
53:44rate when you exhale.
53:47You want to increase your HRV, do a few
53:49deliberate exhales during the day.
53:52People go, "How do I get my HRV up?"
53:54Well, yeah, you do some V2 max training,
53:56right? Like, you know, obviously you do
53:57some max heart rate training, some HIT
53:59workouts, etc. You really want to
54:01increase your HRV in sleep and while
54:02waking, just do some deliberate exhales
54:04during the day because that's the
54:06parasympathetic, the calming arm of the
54:08Vegas pushing down
54:12on your heart rate. And all of the
54:14groups I described saw benefits, but it
54:16was the people who did these
54:17physiological size that benefited the
54:19most. So then I started exploring, well,
54:22how fast does heart rate slow down with
54:24physiological size? And it turns out you
54:26don't need to do it for 5 minutes. Do it
54:28once. You just go, "Okay, you're feeling
54:29stressed. You're going on stage. You're
54:31waiting for a diagnosis. You're you
54:33don't feel you feel too alert relative
54:35to how you want to feel for whatever
54:37reason, good or bad. You're about to get
54:39married, right? You whatever.
54:41>> You just
54:44[sighs]
54:44[gasps]
54:47until your lungs are empty and it's
54:49immediate."
54:51And I for me that was immensely
54:53gratifying. Yes. Because it's fun to
54:55publish papers. if we publish it and
54:56sell reports and Meliss gets let's the
54:58lion share the credit for that there
55:00were other people on the paper but she
55:01did so much hard work from that and
55:02analysis I was so gratified because I'm
55:05like ah finally like if I didn't sleep
55:07well or if I something stressful even
55:09though I slept well I can calm myself
55:11down like like that
55:13>> I thought real time tools for stress are
55:16what we all need the interesting thing
55:19is that you can also raise your stress
55:21threshold and a lot of the stress
55:23mitigation chapter is also about how to
55:24do that we need to train for discomfort
55:28so that the little things don't feel so
55:30big.
55:30>> Yeah,
55:31>> this is also important in survival
55:32situations, right? You need to be able
55:34to think very clearly about what order
55:37of operations to take, what direction to
55:39escape through. This is not about like
55:42setting yourself to tolerate more pain
55:44and abuse. This is about the exact
55:46opposite. So, this is about safety. This
55:48is about self-p protection. And this is
55:50about noticing when you're when we're
55:52alert but calm. We can notice the subtle
55:55ripples in people around us who needs
55:58[clears throat] our attention who we
55:59really don't like
56:01>> but we never really realized it. You can
56:03notice that stuff.
56:04>> A lot of people they wake up at like 2
56:053:00 a.m. in the morning.
56:06>> Yeah.
56:07>> In the middle of the night and they
56:08don't really know why. They don't know
56:09how to get back to bed. They start
56:10worrying and remuner remunerating.
56:12>> Very very common.
56:13>> Yeah. So what they can use this as a
56:15tool in that moment
56:16>> definitely 10 long long deliberate
56:18exhales. There's also this really crazy
56:20trick that I put in the book has
56:22indirect scientific support. You want it
56:24like best way to fall back asleep. You
56:25want to hear this crazy this is so nuts.
56:27To fall asleep or to fall back asleep,
56:29you need to stop thinking about your
56:31body position. H turns out there's a
56:35direct relationship through a few steps,
56:37but there's a dedicated circuit I should
56:39say between your eyes, their movements,
56:42and your cerebellum, which is involved
56:44in propriception and balance and a
56:46number of other things. We call we call
56:47the cerebellum the mini brain, but it's
56:49this this guy back here. We really get
56:52nerdy. These hyperfoliated loes back
56:54here. Foliators are just folds. It's
56:56just nerd speak for foldy bumpy. It's
56:58involved in balance. It's involved in
57:00learning. It's actually very important
57:02for generating and responding to the
57:04error signals between what you're trying
57:05to do and what you can do. That error
57:08signal turns out to be one of the most
57:10important things for generating learning
57:12to make errors through genuine attempts.
57:14And your cerebellum is critical for
57:15that. It's also involved in timing. So,
57:17you need to kind of turn off your
57:21recognition of your own limbs to fall
57:23asleep. How do you do that? You know
57:25what works with babies? Walk back and
57:27forth at a particular pace. And this was
57:29defined in this Japanese study. And have
57:31people swing the baby back and forth
57:33just gently as they do it. And the baby
57:35falls asleep. Guess what? Parents figure
57:37out the exact cadence with a very small
57:41margin of error through trial and error
57:43to figure out how to get their kid to
57:44sleep. It's like a natural experiment.
57:46It's been looked at in the lab.
57:48>> Turns out when you rock back and forth,
57:51your eyes move. This is a very, very
57:54ancient system that exists in all jawed
57:56animals, including us, that as we move
57:58through space, walking, running,
58:00swimming, whatever. The world is gliding
58:01by, what we call optic flow. You would
58:04see the world blurry. But you have a
58:07compensatory eye movement that
58:09unbeknownst to you because of a
58:11connection between your eyes and these
58:14brain stem areas whose names aren't
58:16important right now and your cerebellum
58:19creates a visual slip error and your
58:21eyes automatically offset that error. So
58:24when I go like this,
58:26the world seems stable. And it turns out
58:29there's a pattern of eye movement that
58:31can shut down the propriceptive circuits
58:33in the cerebellum make you forget your
58:36limb position and it greatly facilitates
58:40the speed at which you fall back asleep.
58:43>> Okay. You're going to close your eyes.
58:45Great. You're going to move your eyes
58:47slowly to one side underneath your
58:49eyelids, then to the other side.
58:51>> Mhm.
58:52>> Then up, then down. Now you're going to
58:55move them counterclockwise in a
58:57circleish
58:59and then clockwise in a circleish. And
59:00now still with your eyes closed, you're
59:02going to kind of point them towards your
59:04nostrils. You're not going to cross your
59:05eyes and you're going to do a long
59:06exhale.
59:09Great. That done two or three times
59:12generally has people waking up the next
59:13morning and like wild. What happens?
59:17What happened is your propriceptive
59:19circuits are shut down. Now, that's kind
59:21of fun to do and you'll see and it costs
59:23nothing and it generally works. Some
59:25people, if they're really, really
59:27stressed, it might not work, but this is
59:28what I do if I wake up in the middle of
59:29the night. I usually go to the bathroom,
59:32get back in bed, do long exhale
59:33breathing, and I do that and I wake up
59:34the next morning. It really works well.
59:37So well, in fact, that there's a company
59:39based on work done from two MIT
59:42scientists. They have a sleep mask that
59:45generates this pattern of eye movements
59:48through a little electrode behind the
59:50ear. It just like and it stimulates the
59:54extraocular muscles in just the right
59:55patterns. And I tried it and you fall
59:57right asleep.
59:58>> You're joking.
59:59>> No.
1:00:00>> And it monitors REM.
1:00:02>> No, you know, we monitor REM through
1:00:03like an eight sleep or a Whoop or some
1:00:05other device through changes in heart
1:00:07rate and breathing. This is direct
1:00:10monitoring of REM.
1:00:12It's wild. And it can control your eye
1:00:16movements to induce more REM if you want
1:00:18more REM. There will be a time very soon
1:00:20like within the next 12 to 14 months
1:00:22when because of devices like the one
1:00:24they and others are making when you're
1:00:26going to be able to say, you know what,
1:00:27I want 2 hours of deep sleep. I want 2
1:00:30hours of REM across a 6-hour night
1:00:33because I can't afford to sleep my
1:00:34ration of eight. And you will be
1:00:36generating those eye movements during
1:00:38sleep in order to facilitate, not force,
1:00:40but facilitate those patterns of sleep.
1:00:44I've spent the last decade building and
1:00:46investing in companies. And so often the
1:00:48conversation around marketing budgets
1:00:49follows the exact same pattern. The
1:00:51budget gets approved, but then the
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1:00:57is fine. The problem lies with the
1:00:59audience. Ads reach people who will
1:01:01never buy or refer, nor do they have the
1:01:04power to sign off anything at all. And
1:01:06this is why so much budget gets wasted.
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1:01:42Keep this to yourself. Terms and
1:01:44conditions apply. I want to speak to the
1:01:46business owners listening and watching
1:01:48right now. I know what it's like to be
1:01:49personally responsible for every
1:01:51decision. I founded my first company at
1:01:5221 years old and honestly the pressure
1:01:55can be immense. It's the kind of mental
1:01:57load that takes its toll below the
1:01:59surface. I recently did some tests
1:02:00through our sponsor function which got
1:02:02me thinking about that invisible impact.
1:02:04I found that I had low levels of
1:02:06omega-3s. I had deficient levels of
1:02:09vitamin D probably because I sit inside
1:02:12this dark room all day. And that has
1:02:14totally changed how I construct my day
1:02:16going forward. I get up in the morning
1:02:17and the first thing I now do is I go for
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1:02:44for a $25 credit. Did I hear you say
1:02:47that there's a peptide that can help
1:02:48your REM sleep? Yes, I have no
1:02:50affiliation to to it because um it's
1:02:52called pinealon. I I will tell you in
1:02:54the book I do not talk about hormone
1:02:57therapies, peptides or psychedelics.
1:02:59The book is about what I know for sure.
1:03:02Hormones, peptide therapies and
1:03:03psychedelics are at the front edge right
1:03:06now. I'm very much involved in
1:03:09looking at the research, talking to the
1:03:10people that are doing these things. And
1:03:11yes, I I dabble in these things, right?
1:03:13I'm very interested. I experiment on
1:03:15myself and I'm an adult. I can do that.
1:03:17So, pinealon is very interesting because
1:03:21I found that if I took an itty bitty bit
1:03:24every third night, I tried this
1:03:26experiment for about a month. I got
1:03:28massive amounts of REM sleep that night,
1:03:30but also on subsequent nights. I hosted
1:03:33a Dr. Abud Bakri on my podcast who's in
1:03:36my view is the most knowledgeable
1:03:39physician on the topic of peptides.
1:03:41>> Oh, I saw that episode. It's amazing.
1:03:43>> He's amazing. And I think you guys would
1:03:44have an even better conversation,
1:03:46frankly. But in any event, he tells me
1:03:49that pinealon is potentially involved.
1:03:52There are some data supporting its use
1:03:53for encouraging pinealy health. So the
1:03:57actual health of the pineal pineal
1:03:59gland.
1:03:59>> Yeah. The pineal gland which makes
1:04:00melatonin and it does other things too.
1:04:02So I think pinealon is a great tool to
1:04:04use sporadically. I don't use it
1:04:07regularly. You know as long as we're
1:04:08talking about peptides I do think that
1:04:09there's I mean I'm peptide curious is
1:04:12you know I'm from the Bay Area called
1:04:13peptide [laughter] curious. I have not
1:04:15tried any GLPS yet, but I'm getting
1:04:17curious about very very low dose
1:04:19tepatide or reatrite.
1:04:20>> I'm peptide curious, but I'm scared.
1:04:23>> Yeah,
1:04:23>> I'm scared because I don't You've got to
1:04:25inject most of them, right?
1:04:27>> It's a tiny little thing, you know. Um,
1:04:29>> what's your take on peptides as like a c
1:04:31It's a big category, isn't it? Bloody
1:04:33everything seems to be a peptide these
1:04:34days.
1:04:34>> Here's my opinion. It will be popular
1:04:36with some people, unpopular with others,
1:04:38but
1:04:41obviously as with hormone therapies or
1:04:43anything else or supplements like sleep,
1:04:45hydration, sunlight, exercises,
1:04:47nutrition, like you need all that stuff.
1:04:49The behavioral tools are the foundation.
1:04:51>> Great things can happen when you build
1:04:53on a foundation.
1:04:55Okay, things can happen when you build
1:04:57on non-foundation, but it doesn't last
1:04:58long. But the combination of the two can
1:05:00be pretty awesome, especially if
1:05:01somebody has the means and the interest.
1:05:03So the GLPS
1:05:06>> Mhm.
1:05:07>> which are the weight loss drugs.
1:05:08>> The weight loss drugs. I think Redat
1:05:09True Tide is amazing. It's not just a
1:05:11GLP. It also hits the glucagon and GIP
1:05:13pathway. This is the one that Lily
1:05:15invested. Eli Lily invested hundreds of
1:05:18millions of dollars if not more into
1:05:19researching and it's went through phase
1:05:21three. People lost onethird
1:05:23approximately of their body weight in
1:05:26about a year or so.
1:05:27>> Is that a is that a good thing for
1:05:29everybody?
1:05:29>> No. So what's happening is people are
1:05:32Okay. So the psychedelic
1:05:34community talked about micro doing
1:05:37>> that micro doing phrase has been now
1:05:40incorporated into GLPs and people
1:05:42realized they could bypass a lot of the
1:05:44side effects and the cost by micro doing
1:05:48GLPs. These are anecdotes so I want to
1:05:50be clear and I'm not pushing peptides or
1:05:52selling peptides. I say quite
1:05:54comfortably. I have a friend who's very
1:05:55very skeptical about anything that's not
1:05:57fully FDA approved. I don't want to hear
1:05:59about your biohacking nonsense. this
1:06:01kind of thing, but she has chronic
1:06:02fatigue syndrome. And she talked to me
1:06:04about like what can I do? She's seen all
1:06:06these physicians. Mind you, these are
1:06:07physicians at Stanford. These are
1:06:09physicians at UCSF. Like she's and she's
1:06:11a very smart, nuanced person, but she
1:06:14has a wall there.
1:06:16She's started taking a very low, very
1:06:20low dose of tratide once every 10 days.
1:06:22>> And trite is
1:06:23>> it's one of the GLP drugs. So we could
1:06:25talk about Mjarompic, but it's it's not
1:06:28>> it's not touching GIP or glucagon. It's
1:06:30mainly just increasing levels of of
1:06:33glucagon like peptide which is this
1:06:35thing that suppresses hunger and
1:06:36appetite but also seems to lower
1:06:38inflammation. Yes, there are concerns
1:06:40about vision loss in people who have
1:06:41certain structural abnormalities of the
1:06:43eye. Yes, there are concerns about
1:06:44apathy if people take too much of them.
1:06:46You know, it seems to reduce alcohol
1:06:48craving for people that like alcohol
1:06:50>> and sugar craving more generally. And it
1:06:52can reduce craving for everything if you
1:06:54take enough of it.
1:06:55>> Yeah. Keep in mind these drugs are
1:06:57ramping up levels of GLP a thousandfold
1:06:59or more. Thousandfold or more. The body
1:07:03has never seen this level of of glucagon
1:07:06like peptide in the history of humans.
1:07:08And remember this whole thing was
1:07:10discovered because a smart biologist was
1:07:11studying why helila monsters, these
1:07:14reptiles that I think are ugly, he
1:07:15probably thinks they're beautiful, only
1:07:17have to eat a couple times a year. It's
1:07:19because they make a peptide called
1:07:20extendin which turns out to be
1:07:21homologous to glucagon like peptide one
1:07:24in humans. The reason these reptiles
1:07:26don't have to eat very often is because
1:07:28they always feel satiated. Why? Because
1:07:29they have very high levels of glucagon
1:07:31like peptide circulating. We don't. And
1:07:34it works through two mechanisms. Tells
1:07:37the brain mechanisms for satiety to ramp
1:07:40up their activity. And so your brain is
1:07:41telling you, I don't really want food.
1:07:43And it also makes people feel full,
1:07:44which is the basis of some of the side
1:07:46effects of nausea and other things. So
1:07:48she will tell you, oh my god, my
1:07:50energy's back. My inflammation markers
1:07:52are way lower. I I'm not cured, but I
1:07:55feel so much better. Very, very hard to
1:07:58dispute that kind of experience if
1:08:00you're the patient. We could talk about
1:08:02safety and sourcing and, you know, etc.
1:08:04But anyway, so people are starting to
1:08:07realize they can micro dose stuff, but
1:08:09you won't see randomized control trials
1:08:11that are going to push this kind of
1:08:12notion. You can tell it's terrible for
1:08:14business, right?
1:08:16>> So then there are things like pinealon
1:08:18for sleep, epalon perhaps for DNA
1:08:20repair. I haven't dabbled with that one
1:08:22yet. And then there are the so-called
1:08:24growth hormone secrets. So we're talking
1:08:26about tessamellin, hypermearin, cjc1 uh
1:08:291295. These will promote more growth
1:08:32hormone release and sleep. They will
1:08:35have a negative feedback effect where
1:08:37they're going to shut down some of your
1:08:38own production and people get a bit
1:08:41leaner and they claim their deep sleep
1:08:42is better and it can increase insulin
1:08:45sensitivity. I'll tell you, I've tried
1:08:46serellin. I've tried a few of these
1:08:48other ones. They nuke my REM sleep. They
1:08:51give me a ton of deep sleep. I don't
1:08:53like them. I've tried pineal and I'll
1:08:54take it now and again. I don't do it
1:08:56right now. And BPC is the one that gets
1:08:58everybody talking because body
1:09:00protection compound 157 is made in the
1:09:02gut. People claim, and I do think their
1:09:05claims are accurate, that they feel,
1:09:08notice what I said right there, is they
1:09:09feel as if their recovery from injury
1:09:11was accelerated. And I believe them
1:09:14because I've spent a lot of time with
1:09:15the animal data whether it's an Achilles
1:09:17tendon transsection or nerve regrowth or
1:09:20or tendon or ligament regrowth and
1:09:22vascular. Yes, it does seem to
1:09:24accelerate healing across the board. But
1:09:25the concern is you could vascularize
1:09:27tumors. Now
1:09:29would I take it? No, I don't have an
1:09:30injury right now. I don't have any
1:09:32reason to take it. So I don't think
1:09:34people should say should I take
1:09:35peptides. You should ask what effect in
1:09:37your life are you trying to achieve?
1:09:39Right? And then maybe BPC makes sense.
1:09:42Maybe it doesn't. You're not going to
1:09:44find many clinical trials on it. It has
1:09:46a very very high maybe infinite, you
1:09:49know, LD50, meaning no one has really
1:09:51figured out how much can kill you. But
1:09:53that's not a good kind of way to run
1:09:55your life. And
1:09:57you know, it's somewhere between a drug
1:09:59and a supplement.
1:10:00>> I think this is one of the concerns or
1:10:01one of the conversations I often hear
1:10:03around JLPs at the moment is that
1:10:04they've just not been long around long
1:10:06enough for us to know the side effect
1:10:08profile over a long period of time. Is
1:10:09there any truth to that?
1:10:11Well, do you want to be in the
1:10:13experiment or out of the you want to be
1:10:14in the control group or you want to be
1:10:15in the experimental group? Well, for
1:10:16somebody who has like serious obesity
1:10:18issues, the tepatides and mjaros and
1:10:21ompics and reatride could potentially
1:10:24save their life. Okay. Vision loss is a
1:10:27serious consideration. Although, I'll go
1:10:29on record, you know, vision is my home
1:10:32and I'll just be direct. I don't tap
1:10:35dance at all and I'm not trying to start
1:10:36any battles and David and I can talk
1:10:38about it uh directly. David Sinclair
1:10:40recently went on Rogan and said, you
1:10:42know, the amount of of blindness caused
1:10:43by GLPs has doubled which scared
1:10:46everybody.
1:10:47>> I heard that.
1:10:48>> But there's a structural abnormality in
1:10:49the eye of a subset of people for whom
1:10:51that's true. And it's a great idea to
1:10:53get your eyes scanned. But yeah, so as
1:10:55the ah comes apart.
1:10:56>> Yeah.
1:10:56>> Oh man, this is fun. It's a good thing
1:10:58only come on here every once in a while
1:11:00because I do this I do this all day
1:11:01every day. So you know, light obviously
1:11:03comes in. You got that cornea on the
1:11:05outside of the eye and the lens focuses
1:11:07the the light onto your retina which is
1:11:09this
1:11:10pie crust like structure that lines the
1:11:12back of your eyes. It's an amazing
1:11:14structure you know three cell layers
1:11:16thick catches light absorbs light. The
1:11:20photo receptors turn that into
1:11:22electricity through photo transduction.
1:11:24Amazing. Then that electricity is cast
1:11:27forward to a set of cells that line the
1:11:29inner part of the retina that we call
1:11:31retinal ganglion cells. And then they
1:11:32send their wires, their so-called axons
1:11:34out the optic nerve into your brain.
1:11:36They course along the bottom of the
1:11:38brain and they enter your brain,
1:11:40including your circadian clock. You get
1:11:43vision, you get sleepwake rhythms, you
1:11:46get hormone regulation by light. You get
1:11:48it's just incredible. Well, where they
1:11:50exit the eye is called the optic nerve
1:11:52head. And if the optic nerve head is a
1:11:55nice nicely shaped and sized tube for
1:11:58them to exit, great. Too big, that's not
1:12:00good. But too tight's not good either
1:12:02because those wires get pinched off.
1:12:04This is part of what happens in the
1:12:06disease glaucoma which is the eye
1:12:08pressure goes up and those axons die
1:12:10away. These cells die away and people
1:12:12it's the second leading cause of
1:12:13blindness in the world. So in some
1:12:16people who have a structural
1:12:17abnormality, a structural feature of the
1:12:20optic nerve head here where these these
1:12:22wires leave the eye, it does seem that
1:12:25the GLPS put them at greater risk for
1:12:27causing some cinching off of those of
1:12:30those cells and and there have been
1:12:31cases of blindness. But the thing that
1:12:34wasn't really cool, David, is this. He
1:12:37is developing some very potentially
1:12:40impressive tools to rescue vision in
1:12:42glaucoma, etc. But meanwhile, GLPS are
1:12:45not making many people go blind. Okay?
1:12:48You know, that's about as true as
1:12:49masturbation is making people go blind.
1:12:52I'm not saying you should do either one.
1:12:54That's your personal choice. But the
1:12:56point here is that he scared the
1:12:59daylights out of people, pun intended,
1:13:03telling them that they can make you go
1:13:04blind. But everyone should get this area
1:13:06of their eye image. And it turns out
1:13:08it's very easy. You can go to your
1:13:09opthalmologist or optometrist, ask for
1:13:11an eye pressure test. Usually insurance
1:13:13covers it, but definitely worth paying
1:13:15for.
1:13:16>> That was number five.
1:13:17>> Number five,
1:13:18>> we got into peptides. Yeah.
1:13:19>> Yeah. We've done a question.
1:13:20>> Good thing we're not talking about
1:13:20psychedelics. We'll do that another
1:13:22time. We won't do them another time. Um
1:13:24I don't do psychedelics publicly.
1:13:26>> Listen, I'm open-minded. I did DM. I
1:13:28don't care.
1:13:28>> Not as openminded as you be if we do
1:13:30psychedelics. No.
1:13:31>> True.
1:13:31>> Uh you took you took DMT
1:13:33>> in a far away land where it was very
1:13:35legal cuz you know, I sit here and talk
1:13:37about these things and psychedelics. And
1:13:38I actually did work in a psychedelics
1:13:39company for about a year. But it was
1:13:40deeply deeply fascinating. And I the
1:13:42reason I was compelled by it is the
1:13:44efficacy as it relates to mental health
1:13:46and the studies being done out of London
1:13:48>> around things like, you know, psilocybin
1:13:50and ibeane and
1:13:52>> DMT treatments. And I just thought, wow,
1:13:54you know, it's unbelievable some of the
1:13:55clinical data. I'd love to learn more.
1:13:57So I did a psilocybin and then I did DMT
1:14:00and it was really just
1:14:02>> I've not done DMT.
1:14:03>> You've never done DMT?
1:14:04>> No. No. I've done um clinical um MDMA
1:14:08and psilocybin. I think I'm done with
1:14:10that. Not because I had a negative
1:14:11experience, but I got what I wanted out
1:14:13of it and um I found it to be immensely
1:14:15beneficial.
1:14:17>> The combination of therapy going in,
1:14:19therapy during and therapy coming out of
1:14:21of combination MDMAs psilocybin.
1:14:24>> Do you know what it it's one of the
1:14:25things that made me think a lot about
1:14:27religion?
1:14:28>> Mhm. [clears throat] was having a DMT
1:14:30experience where what I experienced felt
1:14:32indistinguishable from this reality in
1:14:33terms of the vividness and the the
1:14:35realness of it and me just pondering
1:14:37this this concept that a tiny little
1:14:39inhale of smoke could completely change
1:14:42my material reality. So therefore I
1:14:44concluded that my material reality is is
1:14:47literally but I mean tell me if my
1:14:49logic's wrong is a small amount of
1:14:51chemicals being uninterrupted. Does that
1:14:55make logical sense?
1:14:56>> Yeah. So I I think about this way too
1:14:58much. I guess we are going to talk about
1:14:59psychedelics, [laughter] reality and
1:15:00religion. Um couple short statements
1:15:02about this. You're I fascinated by this.
1:15:05I'd love to hear you talk more about it.
1:15:06But here are a couple ways that I think
1:15:08about it in a non um dismissive way.
1:15:12Most all of biology is just
1:15:15compartmentalized chemistry. So whether
1:15:17or not it's the flow of electricity
1:15:19along neural circuits to generate
1:15:21tenacity for instance or learning,
1:15:23you're just guiding chemistry in
1:15:25particular ways. Okay, that's not a way
1:15:26to trivialize it. It's kind of a way to
1:15:28think about it. There are two ways that
1:15:30you can change brain function, behavior,
1:15:33and chemistry. One is mechanical.
1:15:36I can breathe differently. I can get a
1:15:40massage, right? I could poke myself with
1:15:42a knife. Okay? So, there are mechanical
1:15:44forces that change our physiology. And
1:15:47then there are chemical forces,
1:15:48pharmarmacology, things we eat, and
1:15:50chemicals within us, serotonin, etc.
1:15:52That's really it. There's no other
1:15:54thing. In many ways, you're absolutely
1:15:57right. It's compartmentalized chemistry
1:15:59and mechanics and other chemicals are
1:16:01what control that chemistry. And
1:16:04I think organizing one's thoughts
1:16:07sometimes in that way can be helpful
1:16:09because you realize the stress response
1:16:11is really just a bunch of chemicals
1:16:12happening in certain places and so on. I
1:16:15personally am intrigued about the idea
1:16:18of things outside of our conscious
1:16:20understanding in biology that maybe
1:16:23things like DMT give us access to or
1:16:25maybe just prayer gives us access to or
1:16:27faith gives us access to. And it comes
1:16:29from my recognition both as a
1:16:32neuroscientist and just a human who's
1:16:33been alive for 50 years and some change
1:16:36that our biology and psychology, let's
1:16:40mold those together, are
1:16:44extraordinarily good at accomplishing
1:16:46certain things.
1:16:48But there are certain things that are
1:16:50outside the abilities of our psychology
1:16:54and biology. And if we are asking our
1:16:59psychology and biology to satisfy
1:17:02something that our psychology and
1:17:04biology simply cannot satisfy, we're
1:17:07going to miss out on a lot of potential
1:17:08meaning in life. And what I to be very
1:17:11direct about it like at the point where
1:17:12I decide to really embrace the idea of
1:17:15faith of a god, right? That there are
1:17:18powers outside of human understanding
1:17:21that can be very useful.
1:17:24everything got better. It It relieved me
1:17:27of the pressure to control everything
1:17:29internally and externally. And I find it
1:17:32not just intriguing, but absolutely
1:17:35captivating that
1:17:38a force outside of us, some people call
1:17:40it God, the universe, right? Some people
1:17:44might think it's Jesus. Some people
1:17:45might think it's something else might
1:17:48actually hold some power in how we could
1:17:53potentially behave, be better, be
1:17:55Wouldn't it be wonderful if there's this
1:17:56thing planted in us or some of us, which
1:17:59is a question about things outside of us
1:18:02that if we were to embrace
1:18:04could allow us to get to a better place
1:18:06as a species? Why would we think that a
1:18:09a technology like AI would do that? AI
1:18:11is wonderful, but why would we think
1:18:12that it would come from computers?
1:18:14That's of us, right? Why would we think
1:18:16it would come from anything that humans
1:18:18and only humans could do? To me, the
1:18:20embracing the notion of a God and having
1:18:22faith, which by the way is about having
1:18:25doubt, but still doing the the things,
1:18:27the practices, prayer is like to me one
1:18:30of the most liberating and educating
1:18:34thing not just about stuff of God in the
1:18:38universe, but about the human brain.
1:18:40Okay, I've got some questions.
1:18:41>> Yeah, I mean it's like we're not meant
1:18:43to solve this on our own.
1:18:45>> Do you believe in God?
1:18:46>> Absolutely.
1:18:47>> When did God come into your life?
1:18:50>> Very early, but I was very
1:18:54good at suppressing the notion that it
1:18:56was real. Like I would pray in private.
1:19:00I would hide it and um and not just in
1:19:03bad times. And then I think I lived
1:19:06enough and observed enough hardship.
1:19:08We've talked about some of this on a
1:19:09previous podcast. I talk a little bit
1:19:11about that in the book, but but I
1:19:12observed it out there, too, not just in
1:19:14my own life that I I started to realize,
1:19:17especially if you stick your hands in
1:19:19enough brains. And you see my good
1:19:22friend Eddie Chang record from the brain
1:19:24of a awake human and remove a tumor and
1:19:27save that person's life. And you also
1:19:29realize that brain areas are controlling
1:19:31things because when they're stimulated,
1:19:32that person feels and responds in a
1:19:34certain way. You realize that we're not
1:19:36all meat and potatoes in there. there's
1:19:38something
1:19:40else. But I'm not sure that it all comes
1:19:43from us. It's it's sort of hard to
1:19:44explain. The the best way I kind of
1:19:46wriggle out of this is that I I brought
1:19:49my dad on my podcast. My dad and I for
1:19:52many years had a choppy relationship. We
1:19:54have a great relationship now. He's 83
1:19:55years old. He's super vigorous. He loves
1:19:58ideas. He's into quantum, you know,
1:20:01quantum computing. And he he's a
1:20:04theoretical physicist, right? And I
1:20:07asked him to explain quantum mechanics.
1:20:08I go, "Okay, like tell my audience how
1:20:10relativity works." He worked on chaos
1:20:12theory. Okay, tell us how chaos works.
1:20:14And he said, "I'll do that, but you have
1:20:17to understand that one of the most
1:20:18important things about understanding
1:20:20quantum mechanics is that early on you
1:20:23are told and you learn that the human
1:20:26brain can't wrap its head around quantum
1:20:28mechanics with logic, with the with
1:20:30human understanding. You have to rely on
1:20:32the math." And he says anyone who talks
1:20:35about the quantum field who can't show
1:20:36you the math, can't show you the proofs,
1:20:38is lying. He loves it when people are
1:20:40like, "Oh, the quantum this and the
1:20:41quantum that is often is in like the
1:20:43meditative communities, but others too."
1:20:45And he goes, "People throw this word
1:20:46around because very few people actually
1:20:48understand quantum biology. There's gaps
1:20:50in there's some logic, but there's gaps
1:20:52in their logic that the math doesn't
1:20:53line up with.
1:20:54>> And the math doesn't lie." So what he
1:20:57was saying and we were having a
1:20:58discussion about God and he said yeah at
1:21:01some point if you're going to have faith
1:21:02in a higher power God you have to depart
1:21:06this notion that your logical brain can
1:21:08go from A to B to C and boom you're
1:21:10there but in quantum mechanics it's the
1:21:13same thing but on the basis of quantum
1:21:15mechanics you can build stuff you can
1:21:16engineer stuff in the real world like
1:21:18that red light or a rocket
1:21:21>> are you saying but you don't know all of
1:21:23this
1:21:23>> there's no math to prove this thing that
1:21:26I call my the existence of God. There's
1:21:29no math and it's not worth torturing
1:21:32yourself over. What I believe is worth
1:21:34torturing yourself over. And there's
1:21:37also great beauty in there is embracing
1:21:40the practice of prayer, embracing the
1:21:42questions and the like opening the
1:21:44aperture of your beliefs just for a
1:21:46moment going maybe I'm going to just
1:21:47believe in God for 10 seconds.
1:21:49>> See what that's like. And I started to
1:21:51experience beauty and experience um
1:21:54peace around not trying to control
1:21:57things that obviously were not under my
1:21:59control, not just within me, but in
1:22:00other people. And I really started to
1:22:02see what I could only describe as
1:22:04miracles. And by miracles, I mean I
1:22:08would pray for some indication of what
1:22:11the right path might be on something
1:22:13where it wasn't clear to me. And then
1:22:16two or three days later something would
1:22:18happen which would like seem almost
1:22:21completely unrelated and the answer
1:22:22would come in that thing. And then I
1:22:24just locked in. I'm like listen I'm a
1:22:26disciplined guy when I really want to
1:22:28be. I'm going to pray every night before
1:22:30I go to sleep. If I fall asleep I'll get
1:22:32out of bed and pray when I if I wake up
1:22:34in the middle of the night. I've not
1:22:35missed a night in nearly 3 years. I was
1:22:37recently invited up to Stanford to give
1:22:38a talk with Arthur Brooks who's a
1:22:40lifetime Catholic. He's in mass every
1:22:42morning. You know, he and I have very
1:22:43different experiences of God and
1:22:45religion. My family was mixed religion.
1:22:47I got to sit up there and just say,
1:22:48"Listen, I'm gonna tell you that I for
1:22:51sure am the person who's least
1:22:53knowledgeable, least versed in this
1:22:54room. But what I can tell you is my
1:22:56experience with prayer. What I can tell
1:22:58you is what I've observed in myself when
1:23:03I open the aperture for faith. The
1:23:06reason I did that talk is because our
1:23:08former director of neurosciences at
1:23:09Stanford um had written to me and said,
1:23:12'I think you should consider talking to
1:23:13this group. And he did some of the most
1:23:15important experiments in the history of
1:23:17neuroscience linking neuronal activity
1:23:19to perception. He really showed that if
1:23:21you stimulate certain brain areas,
1:23:22people perceive things a certain way
1:23:24regardless of what's happening out in
1:23:25the world. Mhm.
1:23:26>> Like there's a brain area I could
1:23:27trigger right now and I could show you a
1:23:29movie of a bunch of dots moving up and
1:23:32everyone here would be like, "They're
1:23:33moving up." And if I tickled the right
1:23:34neuron in your brain, you'd say,
1:23:36"They're going down." And like that's
1:23:38wild. Then I turn it off and you say,
1:23:39"Oh yeah, of course they're going up."
1:23:41Your understanding of the world is an
1:23:44abstraction
1:23:45that occurs inside your skull on the
1:23:47basis of photons that come in through
1:23:49your eyes, sound waves that hit your
1:23:51ears, mechanical forces that hit your
1:23:53skin, and chemicals that go in your
1:23:55nostrils and in your mouth. And then you
1:23:57create you abstract reality in here.
1:24:01Now, the laws of physics dictate how
1:24:04those things like photons have
1:24:06properties, sound waves have properties,
1:24:08and those are converted. they're
1:24:10transformed into signals. But then you
1:24:12abstract the world with enough
1:24:13accuracies that I can pick up this pen,
1:24:15>> okay, and not miss it, at least for now.
1:24:20So
1:24:21if you understand neuroscience that way,
1:24:24and then you go, we don't see infrared
1:24:26in this room because we don't have the
1:24:28sensors,
1:24:29>> but a pit viper does, does that mean
1:24:31that there's a god? No, not necessarily.
1:24:34That alone doesn't prove that. But what
1:24:37it does prove is that we only have
1:24:38access to the physical events in the
1:24:42world that we have the filters within us
1:24:45to extract which is a kind of
1:24:47mealymouthed way of saying you can't see
1:24:51it cuz you can't see it.
1:24:53>> You don't have the sensors. You can
1:24:54throw on infrared goggles and then you
1:24:56can see it. But that's a technology
1:24:58there. I don't think there will ever be
1:24:59the god goggles. The emotional goggles
1:25:02so to speak come from this thing that we
1:25:03call faith. Faith is the infrared
1:25:07goggles of of human understanding about
1:25:10why we're here. And the the challenge
1:25:12for people is I feel like people come in
1:25:14three categories. They they either at
1:25:16least three. They either would force
1:25:18religion in a bad way so they hate it.
1:25:21They never had access to it in a way
1:25:24that made them gently pulled toward it
1:25:26or you know they were like it was like
1:25:28people knocking on their door. It felt
1:25:30like a disturbance. And I, you know, I'm
1:25:31not against proilitizing if it's done
1:25:33kindly and with, you know, delicately.
1:25:36Or they are absolutely convinced that it
1:25:39can't be, which I look at as sort of a
1:25:41spiritual anorexia. You know, there are
1:25:43regions of the brain that when
1:25:44stimulated, people get a godlike exper
1:25:46the experience of God, not as
1:25:48themselves, but they feel it. You had
1:25:50this idea. And so people have said, "Oh,
1:25:52well then there's a God region of the
1:25:53brain, and it's just a brain region.
1:25:54It's just a brain region. That can't
1:25:56be." But we have brain regions. Arthur
1:26:00says this much more eloquently than I
1:26:01could. There are brain regions for
1:26:03thirst which in the philosophical
1:26:07way again this is coming from him not me
1:26:09would say well that proves the existence
1:26:11of water. The thirst proves the
1:26:14existence of water right. So I have a
1:26:17thirst circuit for gaining understanding
1:26:21of this thing that we call life and
1:26:24whatever comes after it. And in that
1:26:27thirst, I decided to open the aperture
1:26:30to the idea that it's that the thing,
1:26:33the stimulus, the water, the photons,
1:26:36I'm not able to extract that through
1:26:38thought, through my eyes, through my
1:26:41ears.
1:26:43Just like my dad couldn't come to
1:26:45understand quantum mechanics by thinking
1:26:46really hard about it, you have to do the
1:26:48math. And there are gaps in the in my
1:26:50reasoning here. Like it's not a perfect
1:26:52one to one, but also life's just so much
1:26:54better, man. I don't think anxiety
1:26:57sticks in us very long. If we we're
1:26:59feeling anxious, he pray God please like
1:27:01help me remove help me remove this. It's
1:27:03not do this for me. It's help me
1:27:06put energy in me to do the right things
1:27:08today. Put energy in me to serve people.
1:27:11I prayed before I came in here
1:27:13>> on get on my knees before every podcast
1:27:16guest or host and I prayed. I prayed for
1:27:18I just said please help me move my ego
1:27:21out of the room. We all have an ego.
1:27:24help me move my ego out of the room. I I
1:27:26would hope that people could learn
1:27:27useful information that might help them
1:27:28and that they would propagate that
1:27:30information. Please make sure that I
1:27:33maintain humility, maintain like help me
1:27:36help me strive for clarity and I also
1:27:40said and help Stephen and I do something
1:27:43that we're not predicting that would
1:27:44happen but you want us to happen that we
1:27:46don't understand. And maybe that's this
1:27:48part of the conversation, [laughter]
1:27:49right? Like you know, I don't know. And
1:27:52the point is not to know. It's also fun
1:27:54as a scientist who loves mechanisms and
1:27:55cells and circuits and neurom modulators
1:27:57and it's enriching to have a part of
1:27:59life that like I can just
1:28:02explore in like it's I like mysteries
1:28:06like science is about mysteries and it's
1:28:08about solving mysteries but it's also
1:28:09about being in awe of the the mystery
1:28:12and um I'm all in man. I mean I'm
1:28:15different allin than
1:28:18other people talk about being allin and
1:28:20I don't tell people what to do morally.
1:28:22I'm I'm really just trying to navigate
1:28:24my own my own path. But it is uh it's
1:28:28like one of the best things that ever
1:28:29happened to me. It's so liberating and
1:28:32life is still plenty hard. But I love
1:28:34it.
1:28:35>> It seems to be an antidote that a lot of
1:28:37people are reaching for now based on the
1:28:39way that we've kind of designed our
1:28:40lives over the last couple of decades.
1:28:41the sort of individualism, the
1:28:43loneliness, the I don't know nihilism,
1:28:45the me me, the material success, the you
1:28:50could say like low-level narcissism of
1:28:51being on social media and trying to get
1:28:54as many followers as you can. And we've
1:28:57become islands. And I I've been thinking
1:28:59a lot about this idea of like God and
1:29:01meaning because it does appear to me
1:29:03that we are meant to be like anchored
1:29:06to, you know, ourselves and our family
1:29:09and then like, I don't know, our
1:29:10community and then maybe our city and
1:29:12then maybe our country and then maybe
1:29:14the planet and then something above.
1:29:16>> I mean, you're an ambitious guy. Go
1:29:18bigger, man. I'm not trying to push you
1:29:19like No, no, please.
1:29:20>> Bigger. The biggest thing is that the
1:29:22that is a nonhuman force in the universe
1:29:27that wants goodness
1:29:29and can exemplify perfection
1:29:32and you and I if I may by virtue of
1:29:35being human by virtue of having circuits
1:29:38that I mean the famous studies like
1:29:39people get to stimulate different areas
1:29:41of their brain you know the area that
1:29:42people like to stimulate a lot the area
1:29:44that generates frustration and anger
1:29:46that arousal I saw that result and I was
1:29:48like oh man that's disappointing why not
1:29:50beauty, giddiness or even feelings of
1:29:53being drunk. Though they found that too,
1:29:54but they were not as interested in that.
1:29:56You know, are we bad? No, we're not bad.
1:29:58We we are wired with an animal part of
1:30:01our brain and we are wired with a
1:30:02conscious thoughtful part of our brain.
1:30:05And it's a lot of work to ascend. I know
1:30:09that word is like it in the looks maxing
1:30:12thing now but like it's a to ascend as a
1:30:15human to a place where you're living in
1:30:18a controlled and thoughtful and peaceful
1:30:21way with yourself and with your pursuits
1:30:24and you're putting trying striving to
1:30:26put goodness in the world and take care
1:30:28of people and and to do that uh with a
1:30:32little less friction. I know from
1:30:34experience that comes from trying not to
1:30:37control every aspect of every process
1:30:39and somehow everything just goes much
1:30:41better. So, you know, people will be
1:30:45like, "Oh, he really drank the
1:30:46Kool-Aid." Like, I don't know. I I
1:30:48actually think that this was pumping in
1:30:50my veins from go. Yes, I worked on a lot
1:30:53of topics um stress, vision, etc. But I
1:30:55studied neural development for a long
1:30:57time and you know sperm meets egg and
1:31:02cells start dividing and you get a human
1:31:04and um yes we understand induction
1:31:08factors. I teach developmental robotics
1:31:09cell migration axon guidance you know
1:31:12misoderm ectoerm etc.
1:31:14Great. Like compartmentalized chemistry
1:31:18can give you a human, but there are gaps
1:31:22in our understanding and there's magic
1:31:25in that orchestration that goes beyond
1:31:29what the science can even begin to
1:31:30understand. And it's nothing short of
1:31:34spectacular. You just like also who
1:31:37doesn't want more awe in their life?
1:31:38It's like Dr. Kelner is like the the awe
1:31:41guy at Berkeley like he said. Yeah. Awe
1:31:43is when you go from small aperture to
1:31:46big aperture and from big aperture to
1:31:47small aperture. That transition induces
1:31:50awe and you can hear it in sound too.
1:31:52Like when you walk in off the street and
1:31:53you go into like Stanford has this
1:31:56incredible church. Memorial church is
1:31:58unbelievably beautiful with this giant
1:32:00organ and you walk in there and people
1:32:02change. Not just because it's a you like
1:32:05there's this high ceiling and you're
1:32:07like wow like this is incredible. Of
1:32:09course, I know humans made it. Like I'm
1:32:10not an idiot, but
1:32:13day aperture to
1:32:16holy aperture. The like these and you
1:32:19can get this other ways, right? I'm not
1:32:20saying you can't get this other ways,
1:32:22but I like the idea that if we dial out
1:32:24really far
1:32:26>> that there's something much greater than
1:32:28us. And and I don't know what it exactly
1:32:30what form it takes or exactly what shape
1:32:32it takes or exactly what ways that it um
1:32:36God would exert
1:32:38uh influence over our minds. But
1:32:42>> you don't need to
1:32:42>> you don't need to.
1:32:43>> This is the thing that I have to I think
1:32:45I have to come to terms with is I I go,
1:32:47okay, this is really interesting.
1:32:48There's lots of meaning and benefits to
1:32:50my life. You know, if we're just
1:32:51thinking about benefits, right? And then
1:32:53I go, okay, so which which Bible have I
1:32:55got to believe? And then I start looking
1:32:57at the Bibles and I'm like, "Okay,
1:32:58Noah's arc."
1:32:59>> Look at a bunch of them. I think one
1:33:00will call to you more than the others.
1:33:02Listen, it may end up being atheism for
1:33:04some people. But when I said um when I
1:33:06said spiritual anorexia earlier,
1:33:09anorexia is the most deadly of the
1:33:10psychiatric illnesses.
1:33:13It's like it's incredibly deadly. And
1:33:15it's a something happens to the neural
1:33:17circuits where people with true anorexia
1:33:21feel reward some sort of sense of quote
1:33:24unquote reinforcement is better than
1:33:26reward. Reinforcement from avoiding food
1:33:27as opposed to eating it. So that's very
1:33:29like runs against our evolution as a
1:33:32species, right? And our health. But the
1:33:36desire for food, as Arthur would say,
1:33:39proves the existence of food, right? The
1:33:40desire of thirst proves the existence of
1:33:42water. And there are atheists who are
1:33:45like, "Yeah, I don't need it. Not for
1:33:47me." And then there are atheists who are
1:33:48who have a kind of spiritual anorexia.
1:33:50It's almost like they get their
1:33:52spirituality is not believing in a god.
1:33:55And I look at them and I go, "Well,
1:33:56you're kind of on the like the same like
1:33:58extreme. It's almost like it wraps
1:34:00around so far that you you the the truly
1:34:02religious people and the atheists kind
1:34:03of meet right here. They both have the
1:34:05same sort of thing, but there's kind of
1:34:06an inversion of the circuit right there.
1:34:08And so I don't know someone will work
1:34:10out the neuroscience or not. I'm going
1:34:12to keep praying because my life is that
1:34:14much better.
1:34:15>> When you when I heard you talk about it,
1:34:16I started praying a little bit.
1:34:18>> Oh, right on.
1:34:18>> Not all the time, but there there's
1:34:20several moments where I thought, do you
1:34:22know what? Now would be a good time to
1:34:23just pray. And someone like you saying
1:34:26that you do it gives a lot of other
1:34:28people permission to try and to
1:34:31investigate for themselves because you
1:34:33know you like if I'm in the human camp
1:34:35maybe I'm someone that really cares
1:34:36about scientific rigor and precision and
1:34:38and then if you if that if you change
1:34:40that camp to also be open-minded to
1:34:42spirituality and religion and these sort
1:34:44of other pursuits I can still [laughter]
1:34:47be sort of ideologically who I believe I
1:34:49am while also investigating these other
1:34:51things. So when I it was really
1:34:53impactful for me to hear you talk about
1:34:54prayer because it impacted my
1:34:56>> it gave me permission I should say at
1:34:58some weird level to also investigate and
1:35:01yeah like I report the same findings as
1:35:03you that
1:35:04>> it helps. [laughter]
1:35:05>> Yeah it helps. My former chair and
1:35:08director of neurosciences at Stanford
1:35:09who encouraged me to do that talk at
1:35:11Veraritoss where I mostly talked about
1:35:12how ignorant and naive I am on these
1:35:15topics. He's a brilliant neuroscientist.
1:35:18He has faith
1:35:20>> and I respect him and I respect his
1:35:21mind. I also think there's maybe a kind
1:35:24of fun analogy here that just came to
1:35:25mind. You know, it happens in every
1:35:27dimension like audience and podcasters
1:35:29or but this happened during the pandemic
1:35:32with the with the health community and
1:35:33we're seeing the the long tale of that
1:35:35now. But you know, when you're a kid,
1:35:37you think your parents are everything.
1:35:39you think they can do no wrong and then
1:35:41there's this thing called being an
1:35:42adolescent teenager and you catch them
1:35:45doing like lying or saying things
1:35:47occasionally or doing things you go wait
1:35:49you said that and and it's like this and
1:35:51all of a sudden you're like you don't
1:35:53know anything
1:35:55>> then you gain some hopefully some agency
1:35:58and some philosophy in life and you get
1:36:00to this point where you think you know
1:36:02everything and you accept that they
1:36:03don't but you're really the one that
1:36:05understands
1:36:08I think that as adults, we eventually
1:36:11get to the place after that where we go,
1:36:13"Oh, wait. It's outside of me. I'm got
1:36:15to look outside of me." And then you go,
1:36:16"No, every like all these adults, we
1:36:18were all they went through it and we
1:36:20went through it." And the real like it's
1:36:22going, "Oh, wait. No, no. I'm looking at
1:36:24humans for something that doesn't isn't
1:36:26going to come from human beings. We're
1:36:27all flawed. We're all we're all
1:36:30imperfect." And so the the notion the
1:36:33belief that there's the perfection
1:36:35exists outside us and that we can strive
1:36:38for certain things through works through
1:36:40practices
1:36:42that's not just compelling that's just
1:36:44like downright fantastic to me because
1:36:47it you fully embrace the the woes and
1:36:51the the beauty of being human in
1:36:54embracing God. It's kind of a weird
1:36:56thing. So listen, more power to the
1:36:57atheists if they if they can pull it off
1:36:59without all that. Great. But you know,
1:37:00meanwhile, I'm going to keep at it.
1:37:02>> Amen.
1:37:04>> This is something that I've made for
1:37:06you. I realize that the DEO audience are
1:37:08striv
1:37:12goals that we want to accomplish. And
1:37:13one of the things I've learned is that
1:37:15when you aim at the big big goal, it can
1:37:18feel incredibly psychologically
1:37:21uncomfortable because it's kind of like
1:37:22being stood at the foot of Mount Everest
1:37:24and looking upwards. The way to
1:37:26accomplish your goals is by breaking
1:37:28them down into tiny small steps. And we
1:37:30call this in our team the 1%. And
1:37:32actually this philosophy is highly
1:37:34responsible for much of our success
1:37:36here. So what we've done so that you at
1:37:38home can accomplish any big goal that
1:37:40you have is we've made these 1% diaries
1:37:44and we released these last year and they
1:37:45all sold out. So I asked my team over
1:37:48and over again to bring the diaries back
1:37:49but also to introduce some new colors
1:37:51and to make some minor tweaks to the
1:37:52diary. Now, we have a better range for
1:37:57you. So, if you have a big goal in mind
1:37:59and you need a framework and a process
1:38:01and some motivation, then I highly
1:38:03recommend you get one of these diaries
1:38:05before they all sell out once again. And
1:38:07you can get yours at the diary.com.
1:38:10And if you want the link, the link is in
1:38:11the description below. There should be a
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1:38:30>> Okay, so we haven't done number seven
1:38:32and we And what's number eight then? We
1:38:34haven't done number eight.
1:38:34>> Yeah.
1:38:35>> And we haven't done
1:38:36>> Well, we sort of did this. So, at night
1:38:38once you're asleep, try and keep your
1:38:39sleeping environment as dark as
1:38:40possible. A good eye mask is useful.
1:38:42Some people like earplugs, too. If you
1:38:44wake up in the middle of the night, do
1:38:45some long exhale breathing or do the,
1:38:48you know, the this wacky eyes to the
1:38:50side, eyes up and then, you know,
1:38:52counterclockwise and clockwise. So, at
1:38:54night, dim the lights. Why? Bright
1:38:56lights stimulate cortisol release. You
1:38:58want your cortisol low at night.
1:38:59Everyone says, "Yeah, dim the lights to
1:39:01because it suppresses melatonin." That's
1:39:03true,
1:39:04>> but that's just half of the story. The
1:39:05other reason is it increases cortisol
1:39:07and you want your cortisol low at night.
1:39:09>> What about this whole conversation
1:39:10around phones at night?
1:39:11>> Yeah. And blue light. Okay.
1:39:13>> Dim dim your phone or or triple click
1:39:15program it to the go to the red screen.
1:39:17Oh yeah.
1:39:18>> Yeah. Just do that.
1:39:19>> I I think in the last let's be
1:39:22reasonable. The last 30 minutes before
1:39:24sleep. No screens. First 30 minutes
1:39:26after waking you should be looking at
1:39:28the sun and exercising, hydrating, and
1:39:30doing that kind of thing.
1:39:31>> And chuck the partner out of the bed.
1:39:32I've had I've had some
1:39:34>> really sleeping. They've been joking.
1:39:36>> I'm the opposite. I'm I'm a spooner.
1:39:38>> So am I. I read some studies.
1:39:40>> I sleep best as big spoon. Yeah, I have
1:39:42no choice. I don't get Yeah.
1:39:44>> Yeah. [laughter]
1:39:46No, but I I did hear a study that, you
1:39:48know, it does impact sleep, but who
1:39:50cares?
1:39:50>> I don't know. I mean, uh the the bed
1:39:53cooling thing is very helpful because I
1:39:54tend to run warm. So, having another
1:39:55person in there is like really warm.
1:39:57Like it it's like sleeping with a
1:39:59>> That's so funny.
1:40:00>> I don't want to diminish into a giant
1:40:02hot water bottle, but she runs really
1:40:03warm. So, having the cooling mattress
1:40:05helps. But, okay. You really want to do
1:40:08these two things. These actually go very
1:40:10well together.
1:40:11You need to do a bout of work of 90
1:40:13minutes to two hours. You like you got
1:40:14to strive and try and learn something.
1:40:16Do something hard every day mentally.
1:40:18This is critical for your ability to
1:40:20focus. And by the way, you you asked
1:40:22about phones. Awesome study came out.
1:40:25They had people with their phone off
1:40:27upside down on the table or in their bag
1:40:29underneath their chair or in the
1:40:30opposite room, a separate room. And what
1:40:32they found is people can focus just fine
1:40:34in all three conditions. But if the
1:40:37phone is anywhere in the room, the
1:40:40amount of cognitive flexibility they
1:40:42have with the material they're focusing
1:40:43on is diminished. In other words,
1:40:45requires more energy to focus. Even if
1:40:48they're not getting calls and
1:40:49notifications, there's a subscript
1:40:51running in the brain apparently that's
1:40:53anticipating that this thing is going to
1:40:55reach for me. It's going to call me. So,
1:40:57it's calling you even if it's not
1:40:59calling you, which is pretty cool. And
1:41:01so the way to increase focus and
1:41:03cognitive capacity is actually to just
1:41:05get the phone out of the room. That's a
1:41:06big part of it. And actually visual
1:41:08field matter matters a lot too. You know
1:41:11like the the kid in school with the
1:41:12hoodie who's not asleep like that
1:41:13actually is helpful. I talk about some
1:41:15of the the history of tools for focus
1:41:17pharmarmacology but also physical
1:41:18devices. You know they used to design
1:41:20helmets for kids to like try and focus
1:41:23the kids that had troubles f problem is
1:41:25now with the with the phone you've moved
1:41:27the whole world right in front of you.
1:41:29So focusing just here doesn't work but
1:41:32get the phone out of the room and do
1:41:34some effortful learning bout and it
1:41:36should feel like a fight. Keep in mind
1:41:37the friction you feel trying to learn
1:41:40something that's adrenaline. The
1:41:43remember how do we block learning? We
1:41:45block adrenaline and its downstream
1:41:47effects with propranolol.
1:41:49being alert but calm or a little
1:41:52stressed and making errors through
1:41:54deliberate attempts to do something, not
1:41:56just throwaway errors.
1:41:58That's how you learn. Why? If I can
1:42:00reach out and grab this pen, my brain
1:42:03doesn't change. One of the biggest lies
1:42:05in public education about neuroscience
1:42:07is that every experience changes your
1:42:08brain. By the time I'm done saying this,
1:42:10your brain will be different. No, that's
1:42:11absolutely not true. That's a bunch of
1:42:13hoie. I studied neuroplasticity. I teach
1:42:15neuroplasticity. I'll tell you, you know
1:42:16what induces neuroplasticity? being a
1:42:18baby who's trying to learn or being an
1:42:20adult who's forcing yourself to try and
1:42:22learn and you can't do the thing the
1:42:25error is what stimulates the plasticity.
1:42:28So if you and the the appropriate level
1:42:30of difficulty say the computational
1:42:33modeling is somewhere around 15% on
1:42:35average. Now what does that mean?
1:42:36There's two kinds of practice. One is
1:42:39practicing doing things I already know
1:42:40how to do. There you're aiming for 100%
1:42:43performance, right? You're reinforcing
1:42:44what you already know how to do. talk to
1:42:46a great dancer and they'll tell you they
1:42:47drill drill drill drill the things they
1:42:49already know how to do. But when you're
1:42:51trying to learn the new language, the
1:42:53new emotional skill, the new physical
1:42:55skill, the new cognitive emotional
1:42:56skill, you need to make genuine attempts
1:43:00and you need to fail some of the time.
1:43:02And those failure signals are relayed to
1:43:04your cerebellum and your cerebellum
1:43:07propagates through networks that say
1:43:09change.
1:43:10>> So there's a set of conditions in the
1:43:12chapter on plasticity that say you need
1:43:14to be alert. So I talk about all the
1:43:16ways you can get alert including
1:43:18pharmarmacology supplements and
1:43:20behavioral tools. Then you need to be
1:43:22focused. I talk about all the tools for
1:43:24focus which you can devote to anything
1:43:26not just learning. And then I talk about
1:43:28the conditions for plasticity and you
1:43:30need to get this friction and these
1:43:33errors and then you need to stop. You
1:43:36need to come back a day or two later do
1:43:38it again and then you need to make sure
1:43:40that you reinforce what you learned. The
1:43:42beet here's where AI is going to be a
1:43:43wonderful tool already is a wonderful
1:43:45tool. The best way to learn is to not
1:43:47forget meaning
1:43:50if you test yourself mentally or you
1:43:53could use any one of the LLMs but I'll
1:43:55go into chat GBT and I'll just say um
1:43:58generate a short test of a graduate
1:44:00student at Stanford level questions
1:44:02about neuroplasticity and I and I and I
1:44:05go and I remember this this is there's
1:44:06this one thing I don't remember. That's
1:44:08how you maintain and build knowledge
1:44:10over time. Self- testing. Self- testing.
1:44:13People hear the word test, they think of
1:44:14external tester. You're the test taker.
1:44:17Self- testing.
1:44:18>> That's a really interesting idea for
1:44:19this podcast episode, which we should
1:44:21definitely run. Team,
1:44:22>> should we generate a quiz?
1:44:24>> Yeah. So, we can take the transcript and
1:44:25we can turn it into a a test.
1:44:28>> Cool.
1:44:28>> Of the 10 protocols that you've talked
1:44:30through and we'll link it below if you
1:44:33want to take the test.
1:44:34>> Awesome.
1:44:35>> JBT is great at doing this. you can
1:44:38change the difficulty and you can
1:44:39actually say I'm a professor of
1:44:41neuroscience and I want a 15% error rate
1:44:44on average [laughter]
1:44:46and it so it's pretty cool you know the
1:44:49the study I love that really backs this
1:44:52up is that there have been a lot of
1:44:53studies of learning where they have
1:44:54students read the same passage one two
1:44:56three or four times and then they also
1:44:58have them highlight or take notes or
1:45:00they just have them read it once and
1:45:02self test and they look 6 months and two
1:45:04years later reading it once no notes
1:45:06notes, no highlighting and self-
1:45:08testing, you know, about a week later
1:45:12and looking up what you got couldn't
1:45:14remember or got wrong led to much more
1:45:16stable learning over time. Awesome. Now,
1:45:19this doesn't work so well for physical
1:45:20endeavors cuz there you have to like
1:45:22actually do the physical thing. You have
1:45:23to test yourself physically. But I love
1:45:26that set of experiments um because tells
1:45:29us everything we should be doing. So, I
1:45:31think in doing this for me, it could be
1:45:32a book. It could be. Lately, I've been
1:45:35podcasting and recording my audio book.
1:45:38Have you done a a book?
1:45:39>> Yes. And I did the audio book, which was
1:45:41horrific.
1:45:41>> Are you due for another one?
1:45:42>> I am. I've I've actually written it
1:45:44already. I wrote it. I finished writing
1:45:45it last year, but I
1:45:46>> Oh, man. What's it about?
1:45:48>> It's called Just Do It. I asked
1:45:50the audience multiple times what I
1:45:51showed them multiple covers of books,
1:45:53hundreds of them, and asked them what
1:45:54they wanted,
1:45:55>> and that was the one that most of them
1:45:56tried to buy. And so, it's really just a
1:45:58it's really a breakdown of how to do the
1:46:00thing. And actually I referenced you in
1:46:01that in the chapter about the anterior
1:46:03mids singular cortex and what you said
1:46:04about it. And
1:46:06>> so
1:46:06>> well to be clear I didn't discover that
1:46:08structure but I'm happy to u to expound
1:46:11on all its incredible abilities.
1:46:13>> I just quote what I heard you say about
1:46:15it in your podcast but I'll show you
1:46:16what I what I wrote. Um
1:46:17>> cool. I'll get a copy. I'm late to the
1:46:19train obviously. [laughter]
1:46:20>> So I think it's it's it's enriching as a
1:46:23person. It's not about optimization
1:46:25per se. A it's it's about being a human
1:46:27being and learning and effort that's
1:46:29followed by learning and reward
1:46:30especially for things that you might
1:46:32well including things that may not
1:46:35immediately benefit you but just to
1:46:36enrich your mind is is cool like if
1:46:38you're interested in the history of
1:46:39medicine read a hard book the prince of
1:46:41medicine about Galen. If you're
1:46:43interested in light, there are a bunch
1:46:45of cool books about sunlight coming out
1:46:47now from people other than me about how
1:46:49cool sunlight is. And there's just like
1:46:51cool books out there.
1:46:52>> But this is this is linked to brain
1:46:53health and dementia, these kind of
1:46:55things. No,
1:46:56>> to some extent. Yeah. I mean, the data
1:46:58on dementia say that people who stay
1:47:00mentally and physically active and are
1:47:02socially enriched um do very do much
1:47:05better. In fact, Massud Hussein uh who
1:47:08is this brilliant neurologist from
1:47:10Oxford um has been talking about
1:47:12patients who it turns out live a very
1:47:15long time, have lots of plaques and
1:47:16tangles, the signature anatomical
1:47:18features of Alzheimer's dementia, but no
1:47:20dementia.
1:47:21>> Oh yeah.
1:47:22>> And these people are exercisers and they
1:47:24are people who stay very avidly engaged
1:47:27in learning. So there are a lot more
1:47:28people with quote unquote al with
1:47:30Alzheimer's walking around. they have
1:47:32all the diagnostic features of
1:47:33Alzheimer's except the memory loss and
1:47:35dementia. So this says that to some
1:47:37extent the physical
1:47:39ramifications of Alzheimer's and the
1:47:42consequence of those changes in neurons
1:47:45are somewhat somewhat separable. We want
1:47:48to be fair. I mean he also told me that
1:47:49there are patients who have Parkinson's
1:47:51who can't generate smooth movement but
1:47:53if they have to escape a burning
1:47:54building they can which is
1:47:58interesting a little frustrating as a
1:48:00message because it sort of sends could
1:48:02potentially send the wrong message like
1:48:03they're just not motivated enough but it
1:48:05points to the fact that if motivational
1:48:07systems are high enough that there may
1:48:10be alternate motivational systems in the
1:48:12same way that kids with very severe ADHD
1:48:15if you give them a video game they love
1:48:16they are locked and loaded.
1:48:18They're in they're in a focus tunnel
1:48:20like this for two hours which tells you
1:48:22they can focus but not on things they
1:48:24they're not really interested in. And a
1:48:26lot of life is about forcing yourself to
1:48:28be interested in things you don't really
1:48:29want to do.
1:48:30>> So that's number four. We got one left.
1:48:32Number 10 is it?
1:48:33>> Yeah. You said they were linked.
1:48:34>> Number 10 to frame this a little bit.
1:48:37The last chapter of my book is on
1:48:38personal development. I thought a lot
1:48:40like am I going to write a book the last
1:48:42chapter on like relationships? That
1:48:44seemed like a no. Not because I haven't
1:48:46had them or not because I haven't had
1:48:48some great ones. Um but because I think
1:48:50people who like work on that as their
1:48:53academics, you know, fundamentally
1:48:55should do that. Then again, I had a
1:48:56chapter on nutrition and exercise. But
1:48:58um in any event, I decided to write
1:49:00about relationship to self.
1:49:03And then I thought, no, personal
1:49:04development is something we're all
1:49:05trying to do. And here's the key
1:49:07question set up at the beginning. I talk
1:49:09about grief and what the science of
1:49:11grief is and and how to navigate grief.
1:49:13But early on in that the chapter on
1:49:15personal development, I sort of set it
1:49:16up the following way. I look out on the
1:49:18landscape of all the personal,
1:49:20psychological, and relationship
1:49:22development stuff out there online, in
1:49:24books, in papers, etc. And it looks like
1:49:26there's sort of a two bins. One is how
1:49:32to
1:49:33find what's important to you, do what's
1:49:35best for you, and be the person you're
1:49:38supposed to be for the world and maybe
1:49:42for you also. And then there's this
1:49:44other bin which is that we need to be
1:49:46very careful about pursuing things and
1:49:48fulfilling roles because we can get very
1:49:50far off track from our core like what
1:49:52Martha Beck would call our essential
1:49:54self. and I'm a huge fan of her work if
1:49:56in no small part because she talked
1:49:58about that in her books which were very
1:50:00very impactful for me. But she also has
1:50:03three degrees from Harvard. So this
1:50:04isn't somebody who like can't get stuff
1:50:06done and she's a mom and she's navigated
1:50:08complicated life landscapes.
1:50:11So I was like, "Okay, this is this kind
1:50:12of it." And then I I hosted um James
1:50:15Hollis, this 84 year old Yungian analyst
1:50:17on my podcast. And um he just wowed the
1:50:22heck out of all of us. And he basically
1:50:25said this, here's a really good life.
1:50:26Mind you, this guy's written books like
1:50:28the Eden Project on on relationships.
1:50:30He's written books like Under Saturn
1:50:32Shadow on the healing and trauma of men.
1:50:34He's a he's a brilliant thinker. And he
1:50:36said, "Look, there's three things you
1:50:39got to do every day." And he encourages
1:50:42his patients to write this on their
1:50:44refrigerator or carry it around with
1:50:45them. He says, "First, shut up." I'm
1:50:47like, "What? I thought it was gonna be
1:50:49like this like nice young analyst."
1:50:50Like, he goes, "Shut up." There's always
1:50:53somebody suffering more than you. You
1:50:55have to have gratitude. You have to have
1:50:57a gratitude practice. So, I spent some
1:50:59time talking about what that really
1:51:01looks like because there's a science of
1:51:02gratitude and then there's the common
1:51:04understanding about what that is. It's
1:51:05really about
1:51:07receiving gratitude or yes having a
1:51:10gratitude practice of all the things
1:51:12that are good in your life, but really
1:51:13it's about giving gratitude and
1:51:14receiving gratitude. And that's a I talk
1:51:17about that and how to accomplish that.
1:51:19The second thing he he said, so I go,
1:51:21okay, now he'll kind of soften up and he
1:51:22goes, he says, um, suit up. You're not
1:51:25going to be able to do well in anything
1:51:27in life unless you prepare. Get up in
1:51:29the morning, take care of your health,
1:51:31do what you need to to shower, brush
1:51:32your teeth, get organized. This sounds a
1:51:34little bit like Jordan Peterson's Clean
1:51:35Your Room, but it was even like edgier
1:51:38than that. It was like, how in the world
1:51:40could you perform well on an exam or in
1:51:42a relationship or in a sport or at work
1:51:45if you don't actually do your homework?
1:51:46I was like, oh man, this guy's like some
1:51:48like boomer knowledge right here. And
1:51:50then he says, "And show up." He said,
1:51:53"Happy people fulfill outward roles
1:51:57for the world. They fulfill roles.
1:51:59Father, mother, sister, brother. They
1:52:02look at themselves and this is not the
1:52:04totality of it but they look at
1:52:05themselves as somebody who needs to
1:52:07fulfill roles. Teacher,
1:52:10mechanic, whatever, engineer, podcaster,
1:52:14but you have to shut up, suit up and
1:52:16show up. You need to fulfill roles.
1:52:17There is no human being that doesn't get
1:52:21doesn't have to do stuff for the world.
1:52:23You can't freload. But then he said
1:52:25there's this other bin which is if you
1:52:28carry on like that for 10 20 30 years
1:52:31you can end up [clears throat] quite
1:52:32happy but most of the time if people
1:52:34just do those things they end up pretty
1:52:35miserable.
1:52:36>> And I was like oh man like and he said
1:52:39the other piece is once a day you need
1:52:42to get out of role fulfillment. You need
1:52:45to get out of preparation suit up and
1:52:48you need to get out of trying to be more
1:52:49grateful.
1:52:51You still need to do that, but you need
1:52:52to get out of that and you need to go
1:52:53into what he called exiting the stimulus
1:52:56response mode of being, which could be
1:52:59sitting quietly in meditation. It could
1:53:01be drawing, listening to music. You're
1:53:03not trying to accomplish anything. And
1:53:06you're just letting your unconscious
1:53:07mind feed you information about what he
1:53:10called your deepest heart's desires.
1:53:13And I was like, "Yes,
1:53:16this is why we go camping." He said,
1:53:18"Yes, you can take longer extended
1:53:20breaks. You can go backpacking. You can
1:53:21run. You can do that. You can allow this
1:53:23to happen in any number of ways. But
1:53:24once a day, take some space for yourself
1:53:28and just touch in with self. Now, if
1:53:30you're sitting there going, "Okay, what
1:53:31do I want to be when I grow up? It
1:53:32should happen." It's not the way it
1:53:33works. Your unconscious mind speaks to
1:53:35you in emotions, in analogies, and it
1:53:38sets you up to go back into life to be
1:53:40able to see connections and start
1:53:42navigating in new and interesting ways,
1:53:45ways that are unique to your heart's
1:53:47desires about what you like and what you
1:53:49don't like. and to know that those
1:53:51choices are in goodness and in keeping
1:53:53with who you are. I can't tell you what
1:53:55your deepest heart's desires are. Only
1:53:57you can come to that clarity, but you
1:53:59need to do it through a practice where
1:54:00you're not trying to be the football
1:54:02coach, the mom, the best this. You need
1:54:04to listen to yourself, but you also need
1:54:06to keep fulfilling those roles because
1:54:07he and I both agree, and I mentioned
1:54:09this several times because I get asked
1:54:10all the time, how do I find my calling?
1:54:13You find it while working your butt off
1:54:15doing something else. That's how you
1:54:17don't sit around going that's my
1:54:19calling.
1:54:20>> You work your butt off doing that
1:54:21something else and you hate it. So you
1:54:22do something that you hate a little less
1:54:24and you do something you hate a little
1:54:24less maybe and eventually you get pulled
1:54:26forward to this thing that is your key
1:54:29self
1:54:29>> and there's not necessarily a sing cuz
1:54:31people often when they talk about
1:54:32finding a find your passion passion is a
1:54:35word happens to be singular which can be
1:54:36somewhat
1:54:37>> distorting. Yeah. Because then you think
1:54:39almost like an Easter egg I have to go I
1:54:40have to go search for it and there's
1:54:42going to be one of them somewhere.
1:54:43>> I can handle fiveyear chunks. Maybe this
1:54:45just reflects my years and years of like
1:54:47getting degrees where it's like 3 to 5
1:54:49years for this then 3 to 5 years for
1:54:50that posttock, graduate school, etc. I'm
1:54:52navigating from 50 to 55 now. That's
1:54:55what I know. I know what I'm going to
1:54:56carry forward. Exercise, faith,
1:55:00hydration. I know what I'm going to
1:55:01carry forward, but I don't know what's
1:55:02coming next. I've never been 60 before.
1:55:05>> So, the end of the day, and there were
1:55:07two questions that I had for you here
1:55:08based on some of the research. Um, the
1:55:10first is I'll say it's a technical one,
1:55:12but sleeping on your side. I heard
1:55:15there's um there's different outcomes
1:55:17for your brain based on how you sleep at
1:55:19night.
1:55:20>> When you sleep, you have a wash out of
1:55:22waste products from the brain.
1:55:24>> Very important for offsetting dementia.
1:55:26Very important for feeling rested. And
1:55:27if that's not enough incentive, very
1:55:29important for for getting rid of bags
1:55:30under your eyes. You know, in the
1:55:32morning when you're Have you ever seen
1:55:33yourself after one night's shitty sleep?
1:55:35>> Oh my gosh.
1:55:36>> Right. Sleep two nights well. You see
1:55:37yourself?
1:55:38>> Yeah. Yeah. What the hell?
1:55:38>> Yeah. You're handsome self again,
1:55:40Stephen.
1:55:41>> You know, so what is that? That's
1:55:43accumulation of of lymph and other
1:55:45fluids and waste products here. This
1:55:47>> one flushed out.
1:55:48>> Yeah.
1:55:48>> Really?
1:55:49>> So during sleep, there's this lymphatic
1:55:51clearance. Um, and it does seem it can
1:55:54be slightly but significantly improved
1:55:57by sleeping on your side with your head
1:55:58slightly elevated. We used to think it
1:56:01was slightly inverted. Now we think it's
1:56:02slightly elevated. When you get up in
1:56:04the morning, I'm actually a big fan.
1:56:06I've got one of these inversion tables,
1:56:07but most people won't, you know, where
1:56:09you lie back and you go upside down. No,
1:56:10you hang upside down. This feels good on
1:56:12my back. But some people get the shaker.
1:56:14Some people do some jump rope. You can
1:56:16just kind of shake out and move because
1:56:17the lymphatic system is really
1:56:19incredible. It's one-way valves stacked
1:56:21up from your feet all the way up to your
1:56:23brain. The people think about the the
1:56:25role of lymph and lymph nodes in immune
1:56:27checkpoints and immune system. That's
1:56:29all true of course, but the lymph system
1:56:31is taking liquid and it's dumping it
1:56:34back into your blood circulation and it
1:56:37can accumulate when you're lying or when
1:56:39you're you know this is lympadeema is
1:56:41you know swelling of the lower limbs
1:56:42etc. you so you need to move when you
1:56:45move the you essentially squeezing the
1:56:47lymph in these one-way valves up to dump
1:56:50back into the general circulation. Your
1:56:51brain doesn't have that mechanism. So
1:56:54miraculously in sleep you get the
1:56:57aststerytes the gal cells actually
1:56:59create a bit of extra space in the brain
1:57:02between neural tissue that allows the
1:57:05waste products the glimp as we call it
1:57:07ga lymph glymph to flow up and out
1:57:10towards the surface of the brain and
1:57:12then it dumps out of the brain
1:57:15still in the body of course and down and
1:57:17out actually the puffiness of the eyes
1:57:20the anterior chamber of the eye some of
1:57:21the cloudiness of the eye these systems
1:57:23are shared and actually some of it
1:57:25actually comes out through the nose
1:57:27which is wild but get upright move
1:57:31around there's a a bunch of ways of like
1:57:34you know these like tapping shaking it
1:57:36looks silly it looks kind of crazy looks
1:57:38like you've been in California too long
1:57:39if you do these things but it can help
1:57:41move lymph out but sleeping does that
1:57:43clears glimp the other thing that's
1:57:45there's a recent study published in
1:57:46proceedings in the national academy of
1:57:48sciences that I do detail in the book
1:57:50which is a short meditation
1:57:53believe it or not, increases glimpy
1:57:55clearance in the daytime. Now, this is
1:57:57super interesting because folks like you
1:58:00and me always want to figure out how we
1:58:02can get by with less sleep and still
1:58:03feel awesome and not short circuit our
1:58:05health. Turns out that the regular
1:58:06meditators are probably able to shave an
1:58:10hour off their sleep, 20 minutes a day
1:58:12meditation, because they're getting the
1:58:14glimp clearance during their meditation.
1:58:17And so in sleep, the timing of sleep and
1:58:19how long you sleep has a lot to do with
1:58:21body temperature, but also there seems
1:58:23to be a drive for glimp clearance that
1:58:25says you need to sleep longer, which is
1:58:27why one of the reasons why when you're
1:58:29sick, you sleep a lot more. One of them.
1:58:31There are others as well. So short, I'm
1:58:33now back to meditating. And my
1:58:35meditation practice is pretty feeble
1:58:38compared to many. But here's what I do.
1:58:39I wake up in the morning and the first
1:58:41thing I do is 10 breaths of meditation.
1:58:44I tell myself if I can't concentrate for
1:58:4610 breaths without my mind going
1:58:48elsewhere, what kind of day am I going
1:58:49to have? And also, what kind of human am
1:58:51I if I can't organize myself for 10
1:58:53breaths? Then I get out of bed, I
1:58:55usually go straight to the bathroom,
1:58:57pee, then I go hydrate, then I get
1:59:00sunlight, then I try and get some
1:59:01movement. Although these days I because
1:59:03of the dog, I get a walk in, then I come
1:59:04back, drink some caffeine, exercise,
1:59:07>> and the 10 step starts and it starts all
1:59:10over again. We are this rhythm. No human
1:59:12being has ever escaped these circadian
1:59:14influences in cortisol and melatonin.
1:59:16>> Do you take uh you don't really talk in
1:59:18depth about supplements or recommend
1:59:20supplements?
1:59:20>> Oh, I do. I always get asked what should
1:59:22I take? I talk about alpha GPC,
1:59:24elyroine. I talk about theine. I talk
1:59:26about theine's use with lowdose caffeine
1:59:29for enhanced task switching, which is a
1:59:32very interesting literature. I talk
1:59:34about um ways to improve sleep.
1:59:37Everything from tart cherry to apagenine
1:59:40to queivic um which is one of the doras
1:59:42one of these uh orrexin drugs I talk I
1:59:45oh I
1:59:46>> but what do you take every day
1:59:47>> you got another three hours really is a
1:59:50lot
1:59:50>> n not really
1:59:51>> what are you like if you had to pick
1:59:52five if they said to you can only do
1:59:55five for the rest of your life
1:59:56>> what five supplements would it be
1:59:58>> well if somebody's sleeping terrifically
2:00:00well I'd say nothing for sleep if
2:00:01they're not sleeping terrifically well I
2:00:03would suggest they they try magnesium 3
2:00:05and8 or magnesium and bislycinate.
2:00:08They're interchangeable for sleep. Okay,
2:00:09that's one. I'm a big believer in
2:00:12getting at least one gram per day of EPA
2:00:15omega-3.
2:00:16>> Okay,
2:00:17>> I suggest getting it because it's now
2:00:18available generic and cheap, but
2:00:21prescription form, Lovaza,
2:00:22>> EPA, would
2:00:24>> that form of of omega-3 that's that you
2:00:27want for brain health, probably also for
2:00:29cardiovascular health and reduced
2:00:30inflammation.
2:00:31>> How do I know if that's the omega-3 that
2:00:32I have?
2:00:33>> You need a prescription. Oh, you need a
2:00:34prescription.
2:00:35>> But here's what's awesome about it. It's
2:00:36very high concentration EPA and it's
2:00:38cleared of all heavy metals.
2:00:40>> Okay?
2:00:41>> And it's very very inexpensive. So the
2:00:45challenge is getting a doctor to
2:00:46prescribe it for you. Just tell them you
2:00:47want Lavaza or else you're going to take
2:00:49a bunch of stuff over the counter. You
2:00:50might get mercury poisoning. There you
2:00:52go.
2:00:52>> Don't threaten your doctor, but you get
2:00:54the idea. So that's for mental health,
2:00:56physical health. Big believer in
2:00:58boosting omega-3s. Also, I don't eat
2:00:59fatty fish. I don't like salmon unless
2:01:02it's sushi and like I'm just not good at
2:01:03eating seafood. Um, so that's two
2:01:07vitamin D.
2:01:08>> Vitamin D.
2:01:08>> 5,000 to 10,000 IUs per day. People be
2:01:10like, "Oh, you don't know that. You need
2:01:12to blood test. You don't want to over
2:01:13Okay, don't take 25,000." But most
2:01:16people are underdosing vitamin D. And
2:01:19also, I'm not I know it pisses people
2:01:22off, but I'm not trying to like hit the
2:01:24RDA, okay? Just like I
2:01:26>> the recommended daily loss.
2:01:28>> Yeah. I'm not just trying to hit the
2:01:29RDA. I'm also not trying to like blow a
2:01:31gasket by taking too much. Like, let's
2:01:33be rational here, right? I'm trying to
2:01:35get to a point where I can derive
2:01:38safety but additional benefits. And it's
2:01:40clear that dosing of 5,000 IU per day
2:01:43has some additional benefits that go way
2:01:45beyond conventional benefits of vitamin
2:01:48D that are discussed. For instance,
2:01:50hormone health. Like I can see my bloods
2:01:53getting better when I take 5,000 as
2:01:55opposed to 3,000 IU of vitamin D. And
2:01:57I'm not changing anything else. So
2:01:59vitamin D and I get sunlight. Maybe
2:02:0210,000 was a little high, but I take
2:02:03five to 10. Um, so that's three. And
2:02:06then the other two would be if you're
2:02:08going to exercise or work intensely late
2:02:12in the day or if you're going to if you
2:02:14really want a stimulant to go with your
2:02:16caffeine. By the way, 90% of the world
2:02:18consumes caffeine every day. So that's a
2:02:20foregone conclusion that they're already
2:02:22taking it. I am a big fan of alpha GPC.
2:02:25I am 600 milligrams or 900 milligrams of
2:02:28of it. It increases choline which
2:02:31increases acetylcholine.
2:02:32>> Oh, I feel like acetylcholine in the
2:02:34cupboard.
2:02:34>> Yeah. Which can increase your ability to
2:02:36focus. I'm a big believer in this in not
2:02:39for everyone, but rather than going
2:02:41straight to a a prescription stimulant.
2:02:43And I'll tell you why. There are very
2:02:45very few things that can increase focus
2:02:47and energy that don't damage your sleep.
2:02:50But even better, alpha GPC gives you
2:02:52more REM sleep. Nobody wants to hear
2:02:55this, but it's absolutely true. But the
2:02:56other thing, the important caveat is
2:02:58that it can increase something called
2:03:00TMAO, which can increase cardiovascular
2:03:02risk. So, a simple way to mitigate that
2:03:04is you take 600 milligrams of of of a
2:03:08garlic capsule, and it doesn't smell
2:03:09like garlic. So, I kind of tuck that in
2:03:10with it. And you can take it anytime,
2:03:12same day.
2:03:13>> Is that five?
2:03:14>> That's five cuz I threw garlic in there.
2:03:16No, because we said it was um magnesium
2:03:18bislycinator 3 and 8. We said um
2:03:21omega-3. We said vitamin D and then we
2:03:23said alpha GPC would be my preferable
2:03:27thing to nicotine or prescription
2:03:30stimulants and I'm but caffeine is great
2:03:32great data on caffeine um in fact 200 to
2:03:35400 milligrams of caffeine per day has
2:03:38been shown to offset dementia in
2:03:40meaningful ways meaningful ways it's not
2:03:43causal it's correlative but those data
2:03:45are covered in there as well so I'm I'm
2:03:46going to continue drinking my yerba mate
2:03:48and my coffee and then the so I suppose
2:03:51the Last one
2:03:53>> I have,
2:03:53>> you know, that's kind of like you Oh,
2:03:56creatine.
2:03:56>> Yeah.
2:03:57>> Yeah. So, I was going to say dealer's
2:03:58choice, but creatine seems to work best
2:04:00for cognitive enhancement when you're a
2:04:01bit sleepd deprived or stressed. This
2:04:03kind of thing. I don't know. I've been
2:04:04taking creatine since I was 17 or 18,
2:04:07somewhere in there. 5 to 10 grams per
2:04:09day. I like it because it I mean, I'm
2:04:12trying to maintain or build strength and
2:04:14it puts water in your muscles. It makes
2:04:16you stronger and it feels good to be
2:04:18strong. and you got you got trained, but
2:04:21that's why I take it.
2:04:22>> Okay. The last thing I want to ask you
2:04:23about is um I saw a clip, I think it was
2:04:24one of your most viral clips um of all
2:04:26time where you just talked about how
2:04:28going for a walk after you eat can have
2:04:31a really big impact on your body.
2:04:34>> Yes.
2:04:34>> That most people don't realize.
2:04:36>> Most people don't realize. There's a
2:04:37section I think walking is necessary but
2:04:40not sufficient for health. You know, I
2:04:42don't think you need to count 10,000
2:04:44steps per day, but I I think 7,000 to
2:04:468,000 steps per day should be the goal.
2:04:48You can do it. I'll pace while I'm on
2:04:50calls. I take every when I finish a
2:04:53podcast with my team, we take a walk. I
2:04:55I'm always trying to take stairs. When I
2:04:57travel, I take stairs, not the
2:04:59escalator. You arrive a little sweatier
2:05:01to your plane, but you're also rucking
2:05:03your bags and this kind of thing. So
2:05:05walking is is incredible because those
2:05:08low-level repeated muscle contractions
2:05:10really help buffer blood glucose
2:05:12especially after a meal. But there's
2:05:14this wild study where the solius muscle
2:05:17the one that gives the calf width width
2:05:20you know when you do seated calf raises
2:05:22right you're it's this muscle underneath
2:05:24the gastro nemius right
2:05:26>> that muscle is about 1% of your total
2:05:29musculature
2:05:30>> but it has an outsized and significant
2:05:32glucose utilization interesting so in
2:05:35this study which is not practical they
2:05:38had people do what they called soius
2:05:39push-ups which are basically
2:05:41non-weighted seated calf raises while
2:05:43sitting and they had them do it
2:05:44repeatedly and they looked at blood
2:05:46glucose regulation and that powerfully
2:05:49regulated blood glucose increases. It
2:05:51buffered the peaks and it turns out that
2:05:54this is related to walking. So I'm not
2:05:55suggesting unless perhaps you're stuck
2:05:57on a plane or while while in the office
2:05:59that you you know if you're a knee
2:06:00bouncer rejoice. You know you're doing
2:06:03yourself good. Um but this movement
2:06:06really seems to help blood glucose
2:06:09management. Now some people say, "Oh
2:06:10yeah, this is so silly. They're talking
2:06:11about all day you're going to do this.
2:06:13Yeah, some people probably accuse us of
2:06:14this. No, what I'm saying is walk
2:06:15because when you walk, you're getting
2:06:17that low-level repeated muscle
2:06:18contraction. It's a slow twitch muscle
2:06:20and it seems to be I don't want to call
2:06:22it a sink, but it seems to be an
2:06:24unsuspected um furnace for glucose
2:06:28utilization.
2:06:29>> And why does that matter?
2:06:31>> You don't want big peaks in glucose. You
2:06:32can manage them. I mean, you get more
2:06:34insulin will be secreted if you have a
2:06:36big peak in in glucose. That's why
2:06:37insulin's there to make sure that um
2:06:39glucose is managed. You don't want it
2:06:41too high. You don't want to be
2:06:42hypoglycemic. In fact, that can be
2:06:43deadly. You don't want to be
2:06:44hypoglycemic. But when people eat, they
2:06:48experience an increase in blood glucose.
2:06:49And while the peaks are manageable, if
2:06:52you're buffering them, so you're you're
2:06:53you're sort of flattening out those
2:06:55peaks with, you know, 5 to 10 minutes of
2:06:56walking after a meal, you will have
2:07:00fewer energy crashes. In theory, over
2:07:03time, your metabolic health can be
2:07:06better or at least cannot get worse. And
2:07:09you know there's Dr. Rhonda Patrick has
2:07:11has pointed out there's a sort of a
2:07:13comparison study where people either
2:07:15walked after meals were for 30 minutes
2:07:17or or so on per day or they did you know
2:07:2010 air squats every 45 minutes or so
2:07:22just stand up and do air and it looks
2:07:24like they were comparable. Maybe the air
2:07:26squats were better. I don't know about
2:07:27you but I'm not going to stand up and do
2:07:29air squats in a restaurant or when I get
2:07:31out into the street of New York if I
2:07:33have the great, you know, experience of
2:07:35having dinner with you and James Ston
2:07:37again. the last time you shared a meal
2:07:38like I'm not going to do air squats. Oh,
2:07:40we're going to walk. So, I think I'm not
2:07:42being disparaging of of Rhonda. I think
2:07:44she was pointing out a a mechanistic
2:07:46feature, not not a not a a protocol, but
2:07:50necessarily, but if you're stuck on a
2:07:51plane, you could do some air squats. You
2:07:53could you could, you know, bounce your
2:07:54knee. And, you know, non exercise um
2:07:56induced thermogenesis is a massive
2:07:59calorie burn. You know, people who move
2:08:00a lot tend to be rather thin. They tend
2:08:03to be lean. it the studies on those like
2:08:06I go back to my undergraduate days when
2:08:08we worked on metabolism and physiology
2:08:10like Rothwell and Stock and some other
2:08:12folks these scientists who figured out
2:08:14that there were people who could eat a
2:08:16lot more than you would think they
2:08:18needed but they always stayed lean turns
2:08:20out they're moving a lot during the day
2:08:22burning up to 1,800 calories a day. Now,
2:08:25that's extreme, but some people who just
2:08:27move a bit more at a thousand calories
2:08:30per day. And there's this paper
2:08:31published in the journal Science, which
2:08:33is a great journal, not as great as
2:08:34nature, but the Brits get the cake
2:08:37there. And people will argue, but it's
2:08:38true. That the decline in metabolism
2:08:41that we all associate with aging, like,
2:08:43oh, metabolism slows as you age. Turns
2:08:44out that's not true. Turns out that if
2:08:47people maintain muscle mass, that
2:08:48doesn't happen. And you say, okay, well,
2:08:50then aging is muscle mass loss is
2:08:52reduction in metabolism. Actually, no.
2:08:54people are moving less and I've been as
2:08:57everyone else has been absorbed with
2:08:58this longevity thing. I look at older
2:09:01people and in particular people in their
2:09:0380s and you know what I see a lot of a
2:09:06lot less spontaneous movement and a lot
2:09:08of mouth breathing [gasps]
2:09:11[panting and sighs] which at rest is not
2:09:12good. We know this that deprivives the
2:09:15brain of oxygen. It's not good. You can
2:09:16mouth breathe during exercise,
2:09:18physiological size, etc. But you don't
2:09:20want to be a mouth breather in sleep or
2:09:21in wakefulness. And then you host people
2:09:23like James Hollis or Twyla Tharp who's I
2:09:28don't know her exact age. I think she's
2:09:29in her early 80s, but choreographer,
2:09:30world-class dancer who deadlifts a lot
2:09:35and works out for 2 hours a day at 5 in
2:09:37the morning, who boxes, who
2:09:39choreographs. They're so mentally sharp.
2:09:42They're physically lean. There are other
2:09:44examples I could rattle off and you go,
2:09:46"What is happening?" Mike Snyder, my
2:09:47colleague at Stanford, who's not that
2:09:49old, but he's in his 70s. You look at
2:09:50them, you go, "What's going on?" And
2:09:52they're moving all the time. They're
2:09:54moving. They're mentally active. They
2:09:56have posture like you. They're
2:09:57exercising, sure, but they are moving,
2:09:59moving, moving. The spontaneous movement
2:10:01is burning calories. That's one piece,
2:10:03but it's also the glucose regulation.
2:10:05It's the fact that they're not sitting
2:10:07stagnant in their own it, you know,
2:10:10there's Bla Norton has pointed out quite
2:10:13beautifully actually that what's the
2:10:15problem with caloric excess? Okay,
2:10:17there's the fat aesthetic piece, right?
2:10:18body fat aesthetic piece. But that
2:10:20aside, it's that you have a toxicity of
2:10:24over of of energy. The world's expert in
2:10:27mitochondria came on my podcast
2:10:29recently, Jared Ruer. I mean, he's
2:10:31phenom in the the biochemistry and the
2:10:34the genetics of mitochondria, and he
2:10:36will tell you, he's like, when you
2:10:38overload a system and therefore a cell
2:10:41with calories, the mitochondria, the
2:10:43whole system gets sick. the energy
2:10:45management system of a cell gets sick
2:10:47and your metabolism, this thing that you
2:10:49call your metabolism is the collective
2:10:51makeup of all these trillions of cells.
2:10:53So you jam too much fuel in there, like
2:10:57they don't work as well.
2:10:59>> And caloric restriction at times might
2:11:01be beneficial. Cloric maintenance maybe
2:11:03a little bit more, at times a little bit
2:11:04less. This is good. So movement,
2:11:06movement, movement because it's
2:11:08obviously calories in, calories out.
2:11:10>> You know what this is, right?
2:11:11>> You're telling me I need to stop.
2:11:13>> No, no, no, no, no. This is not a clock.
2:11:15This is a
2:11:16This is a This is a CO2 monitor.
2:11:19>> I thought it was a lux meter. Okay.
2:11:20Okay. How high Oh, we have a lot of CO2
2:11:22in here.
2:11:23>> Yeah. It's It's something that we always
2:11:24have in the studio because I I think I
2:11:25learned over time that the higher this
2:11:26got, the more sort of tired I felt.
2:11:28>> And obviously because there's not great
2:11:30ventilation in this studio here. We
2:11:31started at 600 and we're now at 1,700.
2:11:34>> And we're under short wavelength light.
2:11:36But before we came in here, what did we
2:11:37do? We went outside and we had a blast
2:11:39of full spectrum
2:11:41>> sunlight.
2:11:42>> Sunlight. Yeah. Yeah, I always I Yeah, I
2:11:44think about this a lot now when I'm
2:11:45trying to do good cognitive work. I read
2:11:46some studies that if this gets above a
2:11:48thousand parts per million, cognitive
2:11:50performance starts to go down. So,
2:11:51>> well, if your cognitive performance gets
2:11:52any better, we're all hosed cuz you're
2:11:55>> you're very kind, Andrew. Thank you so
2:11:57much for so many reasons. It's such an
2:11:59honor to get to learn from you. But I
2:12:01you know, there's I'll be honest,
2:12:03there's no books that I'm waiting for.
2:12:04There's no books that I've been waiting
2:12:06for. Is there any book in my life that
2:12:07I've been waiting for? No, there's not.
2:12:09This is the only book in my life that
2:12:11I've been waiting for for years now. And
2:12:14um I say that to say because I I I
2:12:16believe in your approach. I believe in
2:12:18your approach, your scientific rigor,
2:12:19the nuance you apply, the stories that
2:12:21you tell, the experiences you've had,
2:12:22the unbelievable almost like mesmerizing
2:12:25ability you have to remember things,
2:12:27remember name. You didn't reference one
2:12:29study without referencing like the
2:12:30author of the study. And I've like never
2:12:32seen I was thinking how the has he
2:12:33done that? Like how do you know all the
2:12:35names of all these people? years of
2:12:36years of training and advisers who
2:12:39drilled into me that attribution is
2:12:41important.
2:12:42>> It's remarkable. There's so much
2:12:44information out there around health and
2:12:46all the things that we've graced today.
2:12:48But um I was waiting for your book
2:12:50because I'm not very good at reading
2:12:51books, right?
2:12:52>> Well, there's an audio version too if
2:12:54you prefer. [laughter] It'll be a long
2:12:55run.
2:12:56>> No, I'm trying to build the anter and
2:12:57mids singular cortex, Andrew. I'm going
2:12:59to I was I I always said to myself
2:13:00whenever he whenever he publishes that
2:13:01bloody book, I will read the whole thing
2:13:04from cover to cover and uh this is the
2:13:06first book in the world I believe that's
2:13:08been printed.
2:13:08>> Yeah. Can this is an opportunity to say
2:13:11what I've been waiting this entire
2:13:12podcast to say the copy you're holding
2:13:13in your hand is the first the very first
2:13:16and the only hardcover copy that I have
2:13:19or have touched or have seen. And I'm
2:13:21gifting it to you if and I'm gifting it
2:13:23to you. I want you to have the book.
2:13:24Seriously, I want you to have it. and um
2:13:27and I'll sign it if you want or not sign
2:13:29it if you don't. But um it would be an
2:13:31honor for me uh to be able to do that
2:13:34because I've learned so much from you.
2:13:36You've been an amazing colleague and
2:13:38friend and and supporter, but also just
2:13:42really a you're an amazing human being.
2:13:44You're a truly good human being. And I'm
2:13:46I've spent time with you on and off Mike
2:13:49and you know the number one thing that
2:13:51you need to know about Stephen is he is
2:13:53who he appears to be. He's a super kind,
2:13:57curious, loving person. Flawed like the
2:14:00rest of us,
2:14:02>> albeit less flawed than me. That's
2:14:04clear. Um, but you really are a a great
2:14:08human being and you're trying to do
2:14:09great things in the world, for everyone
2:14:11around you and for the world. So, um,
2:14:14it's a vastly lesser token of of my
2:14:17gratitude to you for all those things
2:14:18than than it it could be or should be,
2:14:21but I'd like to give it to you.
2:14:22>> No, it's such an honor. I was like
2:14:23thinking of ways to steal it. So
2:14:25[laughter] so glad.
2:14:25>> Well, I'm gifting it to you. I'm gifting
2:14:27it to you and and um and now I'm gonna
2:14:30go read your book and I look forward to
2:14:32your next book.
2:14:32>> Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much. It's such
2:14:35a such a beautiful book and I I'm really
2:14:38glad that it netted out at the size that
2:14:39it did as well. It is I think the
2:14:41perfect size and I think you've you've
2:14:43done a wonderful job throughout as I was
2:14:44flicking through as you're speaking and
2:14:45jumping to different sections. I think
2:14:47you've done a wonderful job of making it
2:14:48really accessible because, you know, I'm
2:14:50not the smartest cookie as it relates to
2:14:52science, but I was able to understand
2:14:54everything and I think that's a really
2:14:56remarkable thing. It is also gorgeous.
2:14:58>> Um, I dare I say, and I'll probably get
2:15:01up for this, but I think uh
2:15:02sometimes the the British version of
2:15:04books is is good-looking and then the
2:15:06American versions, I always wonder why
2:15:07they're a little bit uglier.
2:15:08>> The the aesthetics in Britain, you know,
2:15:10um like
2:15:12>> people dress really well in Britain.
2:15:14They take care. They like pay attention
2:15:16to these little details like in their
2:15:17shoes and things like what do you call
2:15:18it? Smart. Like they dress really smart,
2:15:20right? I'm a big fan of like Ben Sherman
2:15:22and Fred Perry clothes and things like
2:15:24that and like the the details are what
2:15:26make those look so cool.
2:15:28>> Well, this felt like a very sort of
2:15:30European designed beautiful book and uh
2:15:32and also your podcast is incredible. I,
2:15:34you know, I have to say so many of the
2:15:36guests that I've had on here are because
2:15:37I listen to your show and I get mind
2:15:39blown by the guests that you have on
2:15:41your show and then I'm like to my team,
2:15:43"Oh my god, this person is unbelievable.
2:15:44He said this one." And I'm sending your
2:15:46podcast all around whenever my someone
2:15:47in my life is really struggling with
2:15:48something. I go out and search usually
2:15:51on YouTube and then I stumble across
2:15:52your channel and find an episode that
2:15:54you've done about that particular thing
2:15:55and I'm always sending them around. So I
2:15:56highly recommend anyone that subscribes
2:15:58to my channel to go and subscribe over
2:15:59on um your show as well. I'll link it
2:16:01below so everyone can get it. So, it
2:16:03turns out Huberman Lab is the sort of
2:16:05gateway drug to Diary of the [laughter]
2:16:06CEO for science and health content.
2:16:09>> Literally, legally, it's worth being
2:16:11honest about it. Um, and you've got to
2:16:12get the book. It's finally here. Um,
2:16:15comes out September. So, this episode
2:16:17will will air in September. So, it
2:16:18should be out now for pre-order or
2:16:20order. You've got to go get it. It's
2:16:22it's the for me the definitive book on
2:16:24this subject. Thank you so much, Andrew.
2:16:25>> Thank you, Stephen.
2:16:26>> Love this conversation. I hope to have
2:16:28another conversation sometime soon.
2:16:29>> Yes.
2:16:29>> Thank you. YouTube have this new crazy
2:16:31algorithm where they know exactly what
2:16:33video you would like to watch next based
2:16:35on AI and all of your viewing behavior.
2:16:38And the algorithm says that this video
2:16:41is the perfect video for you. It's
2:16:43different for everybody looking right
2:16:44now. Check this video out and I bet you
2:16:46you might love it.

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