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Andrew Huberman: Become Mentally Dangerous With These Daily Habits | FO556 Raj Shamani — Transcript

by Raj Shamani · 32,653 words · 4,680 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00the person that can turn their mind off
0:02in the final hour of their day and get
0:04the better, deeper sleep, I'm going to
0:05put all my money on that person.
0:07>> How turn off.
0:08>> The next time you have trouble asleep or
0:10getting back to sleep, keeping your eyes
0:12closed, slowly move your eyes to one
0:13side, then to the other side. Then
0:15you're going to move your eyes
0:16counterclockwise, then clockwise. Then
0:18kind of look towards the tip of your
0:19nose. You're not crossing your eyes, and
0:21then exhale. Now, when you do that, you
0:23disrupt the propriceptive circuits.
0:26Propriception is the knowledge of where
0:28your limbs are in space. To fall asleep,
0:30you need to forget your body position.
0:32This is the first critical step in
0:34falling asleep that nobody talks about.
0:36>> That really works.
0:37>> It really works. Andrew Huberman,
0:40professor and neuroscientists at
0:41Stanford and host of Hubberman Lab, one
0:44of the biggest and most influential
0:46science podcasts in the world. This is a
0:48masterclass in training your brain to
0:50become sharper, stronger, and harder to
0:53stop. If I give you a 25year-old
0:56someone, how can they have this
0:58unbreakable, unshakable mindset, like an
1:01elite performer mindset that they will
1:02never collapse under pressure?
1:04>> I've never really discussed this on the
1:05podcast. If I only had 5 minutes to talk
1:08to somebody, [music] I would say, look,
1:10this is the best thing you can do for
1:11your health and wellbeing and
1:12performance. High morning cortisol, low
1:15nighttime cortisol. Cortisol's main job
1:17is to deploy glucose and lipids from
1:20areas in your body that give you energy.
1:22It's an energy deploying hormone.
1:23[music] So, how do we do this? The best
1:25way to spike that morning cortisol is to
1:27get bright light in your eyes within the
1:29first 30 to 60 minutes of your day.
1:30Let's keep in mind, you can drink some
1:32water during this [music] time. You can
1:33drink your morning tea or coffee if you
1:35like. If you can exercise in that first
1:37hour, [music] great. But this simple
1:39behavior is going to boost your morning
1:40cortisol levels. This is the key to
1:43long-term resilience and becoming, as
1:45you call it, dangerous. If there are two
1:47people, one sees that risk and jumps.
1:50The another thinks about it but then
1:51freezes. What happens in the brain of
1:54that person who's freezing and not
1:55taking the risk? They're imagining how
1:57great it could go. We think they're
1:59imagining how terrible it could go. But
2:01what causes us to choke is so much is at
2:04stake. If I can't do this, I can't do
2:05anything.
2:06>> Can you build courage?
2:08>> Absolutely. [music] Absolutely.
2:09Incremental. You get people to their
2:11edge of agitation and you let them just
2:13live there.
2:15>> When have you felt the most powerless in
2:17your life?
2:18Well, that's a great question. You ask
2:20hard questions, my friend. Um,
2:26>> I have a small favor to ask you. I need
2:28you to subscribe to our channel. The
2:31more subscribers we have, the better and
2:33bigger guests we can bring and provide
2:35you more value through these
2:37conversations. And also, the full audio
2:40experience of the show is available on
2:42Spotify where you can follow us and
2:44stream and listen to all our episodes.
2:51Welcome on our show, Andrew Hooperman.
2:54>> Thank you for having me.
2:55>> Thank you. It's it's an honor to have
2:57you here.
2:58>> Oh, wow. Thank you. Well, delighted to
2:59be here.
3:00>> So, tell me further, if someone's
3:03watching you for the first time and they
3:05have never heard or seen you or they
3:09have no clue who you are, how would you
3:11explain them what you do and why they
3:13should watch this podcast?
3:14>> Okay. Uh, two sentences of history. Uh
3:17just to orient people, I'm 50 year old
3:1950 years old. Um I spent nearly three
3:23decades as a neuroscientist. Um I'm
3:26still a tenure professor at Stanford
3:27School of Medicine. I now teach uh
3:30neuroscience um to medical students and
3:33um do some other teaching as well. Until
3:35very recently, I ran a research
3:36laboratory. So that was really my life
3:39from about age 19 until fairly recently.
3:42Um, so studying how the brain wires up
3:46during development, how it can change
3:48so-called neuroplasticity and learning,
3:50also some interest in neural
3:51regeneration and diseases of the eye and
3:54of the nervous system. Um, so that's my
3:56my academic grounding and my hands-on
4:00experience.
4:01>> Um, I've had a long-standing interest in
4:04health and fitness. um both running,
4:07resistance training, bit of martial
4:09arts, a number of different things um
4:11that I've been very consistent with for
4:13the last 35 years. So, while I'm not a
4:16certified expert trainer or anything of
4:19that sort, I've I like to think I've
4:20tried many of the things that do and
4:22don't work. And um I have thoughts both
4:26about the science around those and what
4:28I've found works best for me and that I
4:30think could be of value to people. In
4:332021, I decided to start a podcast
4:35called Huberman Lab. Turns out I also
4:37had Huberman Lab at Stanford School of
4:39Medicine, but Huberman Lab podcast,
4:41which is myself and a few other guys um
4:44who uh put cameras in front of me and I
4:48started talking about how the brain
4:51wires up, how you can change it, how
4:53sleep works, how you can optimize it. um
4:56mental health uh modern treatments for
4:59mental health issues, everything from
5:00depression to OCD to uh anorexia,
5:03covering the scientific literature and
5:05offering what I call protocols um which
5:08are um scripted ways to improve
5:12something or optimize something or
5:13reduce a pain point. Um using behavioral
5:17tools, some things you do, behavioral
5:20tools, some things you avoid. Um, we do
5:22talk about nutrition, supplementation,
5:24and prescription drugs as well. So, I
5:26cover all of it. So, I'm happy to talk
5:28about peptides, both of the conventional
5:30and unconventional kind. I'm happy to
5:32talk about hormone therapies. I'm happy
5:33to talk about behavioral tools. So, the
5:35podcast encompasses all of that. And
5:38I've largely done solos where I talk
5:40about these things sort of university
5:42lecture style. Um, but I also host
5:44expert guests in these areas because my
5:46network of science and um medical doctor
5:50scientists, excuse me, and medical
5:52doctors is pretty vast and I know some
5:54of the the best in the world. I don't
5:55know all of them, but I I'm very blessed
5:57to know uh many of them and they have
5:59incredible knowledge that I feel the the
6:01world should have. So, I think that's
6:03probably how you found me. That's why
6:05I'm here. And and my real love in life
6:07is learning and teaching
6:09>> things that I believe can be useful to
6:11people.
6:12>> Perfect. That makes two of us.
6:14[laughter]
6:14>> Yeah, we share a kinship in that.
6:16Absolutely.
6:16>> So based on everything that you've
6:19learned, experimented, watch it fail, uh
6:22you know, acquired knowledge from other
6:25people on and your own experiments and
6:28everything, right? I I want to know if I
6:31give you a 25 year old someone, okay,
6:34right now today, and your only job is to
6:37make them mentally dangerous in next 10
6:41years. mentally dangerous.
6:42>> Dangerous. Like
6:43>> could you define dangerous?
6:45>> Like how do you how can they have this
6:47unbreakable, unshakable mindset like an
6:50elite performer mindset that they can
6:52they will never collapse under pressure
6:54like someone who can handle everything
6:56in their life and they can choose and
6:58pinpoint what to do and then be able to
7:01do that. Because here's the problem.
7:04What I feel
7:07a lot of young people like me, we watch
7:10uh people like you, we understand and
7:11learn everything from you. And then half
7:13of the things we are like Monday we're
7:15excited when we watch you and then by
7:17Thursday we're done. Like nothing works
7:19out. We don't change our lives very
7:21easily, right? A lot of people don't do
7:22that. So if I give you someone like this
7:2520-year-old right now and your job is to
7:29make them me mentally extraordinary or
7:31mentally dangerous in next 10 years
7:33where would you begin?
7:34>> It's a great question. Um so my answer
7:38is at first going to sound a little um
7:41basic
7:42>> but I think it's very important to
7:43understand the principles behind what
7:45I'm going to say as opposed to just the
7:47specifics. In fact, this is a broader
7:49theme I believe people should take to
7:52any discussion about health or
7:54performance, which is there going to be
7:56many many protocols. Do this, do it this
7:59way, do it then, don't do it that way,
8:01don't do it then. But the real question
8:03is what are the principles that are
8:05anchoring those statements? Why do I say
8:08this? Well, because ultimately new
8:10protocols will come along, new peptides
8:12will come along, new podcasters will
8:13come along. And the most important
8:16thing, the most important thing is to be
8:18able to place what you hear into a
8:20framework of, okay, that makes sense.
8:23There's a mechanism to support that or
8:25look, we don't have any knowledge of how
8:26that would work, but I'll try it and see
8:28if it works, provided it's safe, and so
8:30on.
8:32The most important thing for this
8:3525-year-old hypothetical person to do is
8:37to understand that there are a few
8:39non-negotiables in their physiology and
8:42psychology that are directly linked that
8:44they have to obey as often as possible.
8:47Notice I didn't say every single day,
8:48but as often as possible in order to get
8:51the most out of their life.
8:54>> What What are those? Well, as weird as
8:57it may sound, the most important thing
8:59to do is to ensure, and there are ways
9:03to do that we can talk about in a
9:05moment, to ensure that you have high
9:07morning cortisol levels,
9:09>> the so-called stress hormone, which is
9:10not a stress hormone. We'll talk about
9:12why it's involved in stress, but
9:14cortisol is involved in much, much more.
9:16You want to take steps, simple steps
9:18that I'll describe to amplify your
9:21morning cortisol in the first hour or
9:23two of your day. and to make sure that
9:26in the last hour or so of your day, most
9:29days, your cortisol is low. Now, why?
9:33What? What? What in the world? Like,
9:34okay, but if you were going to build a
9:35human machine, okay, and I'm not talking
9:37about psychology now, but you wanted to
9:39build a human machine. And actually,
9:40let's make it a happy
9:42>> quote unquote dangerous machine, you
9:44would say, get that morning cortisol
9:46peak as as high as you can. Get your
9:48nighttime, last hour before sleep
9:50cortisol level as low as you can. Why?
9:53When you do that, it sets this person up
9:57to have vastly higher levels of daytime
10:01energy, focus, ability to learn,
10:05resilience to stress when stress comes
10:07along,
10:08and
10:10ease in falling to sleep, deep sleep,
10:13rapid eye movement sleep. These are the
10:14things of repair of the body, repair of
10:16the mind, consolidating learning,
10:19removing the emotional load of previous
10:22day experiences that might have been,
10:24you know, difficult or stressful, taking
10:26off the emotional load so they can go
10:28into the next day and they can continue
10:29to show up for their family, their work,
10:32their health, and so on and so forth. It
10:34also turns out this pattern of high
10:36morning cortisol, low nighttime cortisol
10:39is the pattern that men, women, people
10:42of all ages should have to optimize
10:45their immune system function. So, we're
10:47talking about getting sick less and on
10:48and on and on. In fact, I've never
10:51really discussed this on the podcast,
10:53but if I only had 5 minutes to talk to
10:57somebody, I would say, "Look, this is
10:59the best thing you can do for your
11:00health and well-being and performance."
11:02high morning cortisol, low nighttime
11:05cortisol. So, how how did we do this?
11:08People are probably immediately
11:09wondering. Um, before I answer, I'll
11:11just add one additional fact. Most
11:12people have heard of melatonin, this
11:14hormone that we secrete at night in
11:16darkness that light suppresses. It helps
11:18us fall and stay asleep.
11:21Most people don't realize that in order
11:23to get sufficient melatonin release, you
11:25need limited light exposure to your
11:28eyes. So, that's why it's good to dim
11:29dim dim the lights. You also want your
11:30body temperature cooling. Your core body
11:32temperature going down is what brings
11:34melatonin up. Cortisol and melatonin are
11:37on opposite cycles.
11:39>> High cortisol inhibits melatonin
11:42indirectly, but it does it. So, if your
11:44morning cortisol is high, your morning
11:46melatonin from the night before will be
11:49lower, more alertness. If your nighttime
11:52cortisol is low, your melatonin peak can
11:54go higher. many issues related to
11:57falling and staying asleep become
11:58trivial under those conditions. They
12:00just kind of disappear. So, we should
12:03ask ourselves, what are the things to do
12:05to boost our morning cortisol levels?
12:07And notice I'm saying morning, I'm not
12:08saying 6:00 a.m. because one thing that
12:11is very important is given the
12:14flexibility, some people really do best
12:16waking up between 8 and 10:00 a.m. and
12:19going to sleep later. Some people do
12:21best waking up between 5 and 7 a.m. and
12:23going to bed earlier. And some people
12:25are kind of someplace in the middle.
12:26Like for you for instance, what is your
12:28if you could control everything about
12:30your sleepwake schedule, what time would
12:31you go to sleep?
12:33>> Like two,
12:34>> right? Yeah.
12:35>> Like 1 or 2.
12:36>> And what time would you wake up?
12:38>> 9 10.
12:40>> Great. So let's call 10. 10 a.m. is your
12:42morning. 6:30 a.m. is my morning. That
12:44doesn't make me a better or worse
12:45person. Doesn't make you a better or
12:46worse person. We're just different. But
12:48when I say morning, I'm not giving a
12:49clock time. I'm giving a within the
12:51first hour or two of waking. Okay. All
12:54right. How do you boost your morning
12:56cortisol? We're building this ultra
12:58dangerous person.
12:59>> Okay.
12:59>> Great.
13:00>> But be before we actually build this,
13:02why did you start with morning and not
13:04the night before?
13:06>> It's a good question, but the answer is
13:08that this peak in cortisol cause because
13:12it's on a what's called a negative
13:13feedback loop. it actually inhibits
13:16itself so that once you create that
13:18peak, it ensures that the afternoon and
13:21evening cortisol is low. And I'll
13:23explain why that is in in a few minutes
13:25if that's okay. Um, so getting that
13:28morning peak going, it's like a
13:29wavefront that starts the 24-hour cycle.
13:32>> Okay. Okay. So, let's assume you go to
13:35sleep anywhere from 6 to 8 hours the
13:37night before.
13:38>> Okay. Um when you are in your deep deep
13:42sleep, so two or three hours into your
13:44sleep, your cortisol is at its very
13:47lowest just naturally. Okay,
13:50your cortisol intrinsically with no
13:54input from the world starts to climb in
13:56the hours afterwards slowly slowly and
13:58then faster and faster and faster. So
14:00that in the third uh phase of your
14:03sleep, if we just divide your sleep into
14:05three blocks, in that last third, your
14:08cortisol is rising very fast and so is
14:11your body temperature and then at some
14:13point you wake up. Now it could be
14:15because of an alarm clock. It could be
14:16because you wake up naturally. That is
14:18literally called the cortisol awakening
14:20response and it is the reason you wake
14:23up. So when people say cortisol is a
14:25stress hormone, you don't want your
14:26cortisol too high. That's true for the
14:28evening and night time. It's not true
14:30for your morning. You want your cortisol
14:34basically spiking first thing in the
14:36morning. So you get up, cortisol is now
14:38elevated. Cortisol's main job is not to
14:43deal with stress. That's just one of its
14:45jobs. Its main job is to deploy glucose
14:47and lipids from areas in your body that
14:50give you energy. It's an energy
14:52deploying hormone.
14:53>> Okay.
14:54>> Okay. So that cortisol peak is rising
14:56very very fast. The best way to spike
15:00that morning cortisol is to get bright
15:01light in your eyes within the first 30
15:03to 60 minutes of your day. In fact, you
15:05have a unique opportunity at that time
15:07to spike your cortisol up to 50% 50.
15:10Now, there's two ways to do it. The best
15:12way to do it is to go outside, take off
15:15any brimmed hat you might have or
15:17sunglasses.
15:18Eyeglasses and contacts are fine. Look
15:20in the direction of the sun. Now, you
15:22wake up later than I do. So, when I wake
15:25up, the sun is just coming across the
15:26horizon. That's great. If it's higher in
15:29the sky, that's fine, too. Never look at
15:31the sun um in any way that that makes it
15:35too bright to look out. You blink, in
15:37other words, to protect your eyes. But
15:38you can squint. You can look a little
15:40bit off and away from the sun. But that
15:41bright light from the sun is full
15:42spectrum. It includes the short
15:44wavelength, medium wavelengths, and long
15:46wavelengths that are optimal for getting
15:48this cortisol peak.
15:50In fact, if you do that, you'll get a
15:52big peak in cortisol within 5 to 10
15:54minutes. On cloudy days, on overcast
15:56days, it's especially important to do
15:58that because you're going to likely be
16:00spending more time indoors on overcast
16:01days. Okay? Ideally, 5 minutes or 10
16:04minutes. Keep in mind, you can drink
16:06some water during this time. You can
16:08drink your morning tea or coffee if you
16:09like. You can do other things that,
16:11believe it or not, hydration boosts
16:12cortisol. Caffeine further boosts
16:15cortisol. If you can exercise in that
16:17first hour, great. Most people don't
16:19jump right into exercise, but this
16:22simple behavior is going to boost your
16:24morning cortisol levels.
16:26That essentially establishes the the
16:29relationship between cortisol,
16:31melatonin, and your circadian clock. So
16:33the next day, your morning cortisol will
16:35start to rise in anticipation of this
16:38peak. It's becomes what we call
16:39entrained. So I'm listing off some
16:41protocols. Morning sunlight, but it
16:42takes 5 10 minutes. and you hydrate and
16:44you drink some caffeine, maybe you move
16:45your body a little bit, take a walk,
16:47some jumping jacks or something light
16:49like that. You can bring uh your spouse
16:51or your kids or whatever and you can
16:53just enjoy that time. Try not to look at
16:56your phone during this time. Do not stay
16:58in bed and look at your phone. Okay,
16:59this has also a forcing function on not
17:02doing certain things.
17:04Now, if you are able to get some
17:06physical exercise in this hypothetical
17:08situation, I'd take this 25-year-old and
17:10I'd say, "Listen, I know you don't like
17:12to work out first thing in the morning,
17:14but you're going to either do some
17:15cardiovascular training or some
17:17resistance training, [snorts] one or the
17:20other for six days a week. One day a
17:22week, you can get complete rest. Okay?
17:24And I can explain later what the optimal
17:25protocol for uh for excuse me for
17:28exercise I believe is for the typical
17:30person wanting to be strong and have
17:31endurance and and build resilience as
17:34well brain plasticity and so on. Okay.
17:37The long and short of this is if
17:39somebody were to do that in the first
17:42hour to two hours of the day
17:46the cortisol then starts to drop
17:48gradually around let's say about four or
17:51five hours after they've been awake.
17:53drops drop just naturally it just drops.
17:54Now let's say you get a disturbing text
17:56a you've got a deadline you're stressed
17:58cortisol will get deployed but the peak
18:00in cortisol will be very brief. Okay.
18:04Now, as that person heads into the
18:06evening, probably still working. We'll
18:08talk about this. Maybe some bright
18:10lights. You can't control the
18:11environment. You you are now buffered
18:13against some of that. You're protected.
18:15And then at night, in the final hour
18:17before sleep, it's dim the lights.
18:19Obviously, avoid caffeine in the final 8
18:21hours before sleep. Most days, I'm
18:22drinking a little caffeine now cuz I got
18:24up very early today and it's late in the
18:26day now, but I can have a little bit.
18:29That's me. Some people might not be able
18:30to. You want to really emphasize
18:32lowering your cortisol. Long exhale
18:34breathing is great if you find yourself
18:36too stressed and you're kind of getting
18:37ready for bed. Why long exhale
18:40breathing? There's so much has been made
18:42of breath work and meditation. But just
18:44to encapsulate all of breath work which
18:47you know I long before it came to the
18:50United States in scientific form people
18:52in India have been doing breath work of
18:53various forms. So I want to acknowledge
18:55that. But there's something called
18:57respiratory sinus arrhythmia, which is
18:59just a fancy term for when you inhale
19:02with vigor and you extend your inhales,
19:05it speeds your heart rate up. Why?
19:07Because the diaphragm moves down, the
19:09heart gets a little bit bigger in
19:10volume. Blood within the heart moves a
19:12little more slowly and the nervous
19:14system sends a signal to speed the heart
19:16rate up every inhale. When you exhale,
19:22especially if you deliberately extend
19:24the exhale, because the diaphragm moves
19:26up, the heart gets a little bit more
19:28compact or smaller in volume. Blood in
19:30there moves more quickly in that smaller
19:32volume. And the vagus nerve, which
19:34connects the body and brain in both
19:36direction, sends a signal to the heart
19:38to slow your heart rate down. This is
19:40the basis of so-called HRV, heart rate
19:42variability. for people wearing an Aura
19:44or a Whoop or using an eightlee or any
19:46other device and you say high HRV is
19:49good, right? What is high HRV? High HRV
19:53is your parasympathetic nervous system,
19:55this relaxing arm of the of your
19:57autonomic nervous system hitting the
19:59brakes on your heart rate. [sighs]
20:02If you want a higher HRV, you can
20:04exercise. You know, another great way to
20:06increase your HRV, do five extended
20:08exhales during your day. Just anytime
20:11you just
20:13You're slowing your heart rate down in
20:15your sleep. Your heart rate, your HIV
20:17will be HRV will be higher. Most people
20:20don't realize it. Significantly higher.
20:22You're teaching your nervous system to
20:24slow your heart rate down just by five
20:26exhales in a day
20:28>> or three or one long one before sleep.
20:32[sighs]
20:33When you do an extended deliberate
20:35exhale, you slow your heart rate down.
20:37You lower your cortisol levels. Takes a
20:40few minutes to lower your cortisol
20:41levels. and you calm yourself down. When
20:43you hold your breath or you move about
20:45your day and you're inhaling [snorts] a
20:47lot and you're on average you're
20:49inhaling more vigorously than your
20:50exhales, your heart rate's going to be
20:52climbing up. So throughout the day your
20:53heart rate's doing this, it's doing
20:55this. HRV, if you think, well, that's
20:57weird. Why would we want our heart rate
20:59variable? Shouldn't we want it nice and
21:00even? No, no, no, no. Because the HRV
21:03reflects the pumping of the brake on
21:04your on your stress system. Okay? So in
21:08that final hour, you are ideally you're
21:11not drinking too many fluids cuz you'll
21:13wake up. But if you're a little thirsty,
21:14drink some fluids. No big deal. You're
21:16avoiding caffeine. You're dimming the
21:17lights. Why dimming the lights? Because
21:19light hits a specialized set of neurons
21:22in the eye called the intrinsically
21:23photosensitive melanops and retinal
21:25ganglion cells. Okay? Those cells
21:27connect directly to a little region over
21:29your hypothalamus which is your
21:30circadian clock which then connects to
21:33another nucleus in your hypo
21:34hypothalamus and so on and so forth and
21:36then inhibits the release of melatonin
21:38from your pineal gland. All this can be
21:40made very simple viewing bright light
21:42ideally from sunlight in the first hour
21:44of the day spikes your cortisol through
21:46a similar mechanis circuit with a little
21:49twist and in the evening bright light
21:52will inhibit melatonin.
21:54So, bright mornings and days, dim nights
21:59or dark nights, that's the ideal
22:01situation. And we can really flush this
22:03out even more. But I should say if you
22:05don't have access to sunlight for some
22:08reason, you would do well to um most
22:11people do well to purchase a 10,000 lux
22:14artificial light. I have one when I
22:16travel that's about the size of a
22:17tablet. Um it looks a bit like the
22:19lights in this room. That very bright
22:21light is sufficient to boost your
22:23morning cortisol. Sunlight is better
22:25because it's full spectrum, but
22:26sometimes I don't have access to one.
22:28But I'm the guy on the plane looking at
22:30that light for a few minutes each
22:32morning. I have one in my home even
22:33though I do go outside. So when I wake
22:35up and use the bathroom, I have one in
22:36my bathroom. I have one in the kitchen.
22:38So I'm making my morning coffee or tea.
22:40I have it there. And so I'm getting
22:41blasted with bright light early in the
22:43day. And then at night, I'm either in
22:46dim light or I generally don't use
22:49candle light because I worry about
22:50burning things down, you know, if I fall
22:52asleep with a candles down. But I
22:54everything's dimmed way way down. Okay,
22:57now this sounds extreme,
23:01>> but we're really talking about 5 to 10
23:03minutes in the morning, things you would
23:05do anyway,
23:06>> right? Hydrate, caffeine, most likely,
23:09>> exercise, ideally that takes a bit
23:10longer. And then at night, things that
23:12you need to turn off the lights at some
23:13point.
23:14>> You need to bring your level of
23:15activation down. Learning to turn your
23:18mind off. This is the key to long-term
23:21resilience and becoming, as you call it,
23:24dangerous. If you are somebody who can
23:27push, push push on the gas pedal, but
23:28you don't know how to turn your mind
23:30off.
23:32Let's make it competitive. This will get
23:34people going. Give me two people.
23:36>> Both can work very very hard, vote, both
23:39extremely committed to their goals and
23:43both have perfect circumstances in terms
23:45of access to to food and exercise and
23:47all the things. The person that can turn
23:50their mind off in the final hour of
23:52their day and get the better, deeper
23:55sleep, I'm gonna put all my money on
23:56that person within 5 to 10 years, far
24:00surpassing the other. How to turn off if
24:03someone super competitive is already
24:06feeling like they've lost in some way
24:08because the internet has made them
24:10believe that they've lost it already,
24:12right? So, they're in the hyper
24:13competitive mode. They just don't know
24:15how to turn off. M
24:17>> how can somebody turn off and be
24:20>> and feel less restless?
24:21>> Yeah, this is a great question and and
24:23it's going to take us a little bit in
24:24the in the uh direction of psychology.
24:28>> Um so I just want to make sure before we
24:31move on that I've closed the hatch on
24:33boost your morning cortisol by sunlight
24:34or 10,000 lux artificial light.
24:37>> Hydrate. Listen, do this every morning.
24:39But if you wake up on a plane and you
24:40don't happen to have this 10,000 lux
24:42light, open the window. If you can't do
24:43that, you're you're going to be fine.
24:44You'll you'll live a day, you know.
24:46You'll live a day. You'll, you know, so
24:47do the other things. Hydrate, drink some
24:49caffeine. Like I don't you don't want to
24:51burn extra energy on the neuroticism of
24:55trying to get everything right.
24:56>> That's making you weak, right? You need
24:59and I look at every opportunity
25:02to build resilience. This like like I we
25:04were saying before we started recording,
25:06I you know, yesterday I had far less
25:08sleep than I normally get. I feel great
25:10today. I have a practice for that which
25:11I can talk about recovering mental and
25:13physical vigor. But I really wanted to
25:16see my best childhood friend who's a
25:18neurosurgeon and neuroscientist do a
25:19neurosurgery and be there and also
25:22recorded yesterday and I very much
25:23wanted to be here and it meant flying
25:26yesterday and the flight was delayed. So
25:27instead of getting angry about the
25:29flight being delayed, I always ask
25:31myself one of two questions. Do I
25:33completely relax or do I continue to
25:35work? What I don't do is any in between.
25:38I am perfectly fine just sitting there
25:40completely relaxing. Yes, let yourself
25:42scroll social media for a short period
25:44of time. Let yourself watch a movie,
25:46socialize, text with friends, call your
25:49mother. You know, I'm on my mother, so
25:50call me more. So, but don't do a hybrid
25:53of the two or really focus in and get
25:57some work done. At the airport
25:58yesterday, I decided I'd had a long day.
26:00I knew that today was going to be a long
26:02but exciting one. Decided to just get
26:05complete rest. on the flight into San
26:06Francisco. I took a brief nap, got to my
26:09hotel, got things settled, and I could
26:11feel my my mind going towards h I'm
26:14going to be tomorrow is going to what
26:16good does that do? And you always should
26:18be asking the question,
26:21is this in the left column or the right
26:23column? And I'll explain what that
26:24means. A guy named Andy Stump, he's a a
26:27former what we call tier one SEAL team
26:29operator. He has a podcast called
26:31Clearing Hot. Um he's super impressive
26:34guy from his work in the SEAL teams and
26:35he went on to break two world records
26:37doing other difficult dangerous things
26:39but he has this exercise that he shared
26:41with me which I do which is you take out
26:43a sheet of paper you do this about once
26:44a month and you write down in the left
26:47column all the things that concern you
26:49what people think of me the what I see
26:51I'm worries everything you put all that
26:53in the left column in the right column
26:54you put all the things that you can
26:58actually control what can you do
27:01exercise, hydrate, sleep, practice
27:04turning your brain off, call your
27:06mother, you know, all the things that
27:09and what you realize is that you really
27:11don't have any control over the things
27:12in the left column. And we all know
27:14this, but this exercise,
27:16it's so valuable. I'm so glad Andy
27:18taught it to me. He I read it about it
27:21first in his book Drown, which is an
27:22excellent book, but then he described it
27:24to me directly
27:26for the month afterwards. You notice
27:29when things are in the left column or
27:30the right column. So last night I was
27:31thinking, oh god, like if I even thought
27:34because this is the way the mind goes. H
27:36someone sets off a fire alarm or
27:38someone's loud in the hotel, I'm going
27:39to get even le. I'm like, can I control
27:42that? No, I can't control it. You notice
27:44how crazy the mind is with all these
27:47concerns and how few of those concerns
27:48you can actually impact. So that's the
27:52main way you do it. And every
27:55opportunity to stress is an opportunity
27:57to practice stress resilience. Every
27:59opportunity uh to stress is an
28:02opportunity to let go of some component.
28:05These opportunities come all day long.
28:07You know, you don't have to be David
28:08Gogggins to be in the pressure test all
28:11day long. We are all in the pressure
28:12test. And even just keeping your mind in
28:16that right column. So I actually around
28:18our podcast studio and with my friends
28:20we we're sort of have this saying now
28:22like that's a left column issue like
28:24don't like and and so it becomes this
28:26question I think it varies culturally do
28:28you talk about it or does that build it
28:31>> maybe talking about things allows you to
28:32expune it to delete it I think it builds
28:35it stay in the right column and when
28:37your mind starts drifting into the left
28:39column great that's a great opportunity
28:42to practice getting your mind back over
28:44into the right hand column how do you do
28:46that you Think about literal actions.
28:49You get extremely present. I can take a
28:51sip of water. Might sound trivial. I can
28:53smell what the air is like in here.
28:55Feels good. It's so quiet in here. I
28:57really like the background quiet of this
28:58place. I've enjoyed meeting you. I
29:01learned about some new neuroch already
29:02based on the the devices on your temple.
29:05Like you can really get present and
29:06suddenly because of this is comes from
29:08my training as a neuroscientist. The
29:10brain works in what are called dynamic
29:12attractor states which I is not a way of
29:14trying to sound academic or fancy. Think
29:16of your thoughts and your emotions as a
29:19ball bearing on a flat surface. But as
29:21you think more about something, that
29:23surface starts to become concave. And as
29:26you learn more about it and you go into
29:27it and you think about it, it becomes a
29:29trench. And now that ball bearing is
29:30locked in that trench. And typically it
29:32takes something very robust like
29:36calling a friend and them saying, "What
29:38are you doing?" or getting a good
29:40night's sleep or exercise or some great
29:43event to knock that ball bearing back
29:45onto its flat surface again. But you are
29:48in charge of your mind. And you know, at
29:5050 years old, I finally realized that
29:53it's possible to control one's thoughts.
29:56It it really is. You can you can learn
29:58to steer your thoughts. You can't
30:00eliminate thoughts, but you can take
30:02your mind to where it needs to go. And
30:04there opportunities all day long to
30:06practice this. Right before I came in
30:08here, I went in the bathroom. Yes, I use
30:10the bathroom. And I have a practice of
30:12prayer. Right before I do or go on any
30:15podcast, I ask for clarity. I ask for
30:20the opportunity to share knowledge that
30:21I hope will be useful to people. I offer
30:24up the opportunity for new unexpected
30:27things to come through. I did I did
30:29that. I do it every single time because
30:32I take you and I take this very
30:33seriously, right? People are giving us
30:35their time. I'm not a person who
30:39neurotically, you know, controls every
30:41aspect of of my life, but I take every
30:43opportunity I can to make my life better
30:46because in this case, I like to think
30:48that us having a a richer conversation
30:51will benefit people more. So, learn to
30:54turn it off. But that comes from
30:56practice and you're getting micro reps
30:58all day long. The more stress, the more
31:00opportunity. The more stress, the more
31:01opportunity. Now, in order to learn to
31:03fall asleep at night, high morning
31:05cortisol. Don't drink caffeine too late
31:07in the day. Get exercise at some point,
31:09ideally in the first half of your day,
31:11but if you have to do it in the evening,
31:12do it in the evening. But I am a huge
31:16huge believer, practitioner and fan of a
31:19practice that originated in India, which
31:22is called yoga nidra. This, in addition
31:25to the morning high and nighttime low
31:28cortisol, is in my mind the most
31:30powerful tool that we can cultivate
31:32because it teaches you to turn off
31:35thinking and planning and allows you to
31:38learn how to get into pure sensation. It
31:41sounds so squishy, but I'll tell you, no
31:44drug will do this, at least not in a
31:45healthy way. Any drug that takes you out
31:47of thinking and planning and just into
31:49pure sensation, that drug is going to
31:51rebound you into a rough place when you
31:53come out of it. Yoga nidra and in
31:56fairness I you know I a few years back I
31:58started calling it non-sleep deep rest
32:00that was not this is a great opportunity
32:03to talk to your audience uh who may know
32:06that you know some people were critical
32:07of that decision. The reason for that is
32:10I wanted people to understand the real
32:11value of this practice and I always make
32:14the effort to credit yoga nidra as the
32:16the origin of it. I take no credit for
32:19this practice but in quote unquote the
32:22west such a silly term right but in the
32:25west there's there's this assumption
32:27people hear yoga and they think movement
32:29and then a lot of people who they think
32:31I don't want to do yoga I don't which is
32:34just their own limitation but yoga nidra
32:36involves what it involves lying or
32:38sitting down you know this I'm sure long
32:41exhale breathing slowing the heart rate
32:43down deliberately
32:46noticing My mind is in a mode of
32:48thinking and doing and planning. I'm
32:51going to move it into pure sensation.
32:53Just focus on what I hear, what I feel.
32:56This is so critical. This is the first
32:59and most basic step in what I call
33:01turning your mind off. It's turning off
33:03planning and thinking and doing. And
33:05it's a skill. You do this for 10, 20, or
33:0830 minutes one, three, or seven days a
33:11week. And across a couple of years, you
33:13get very good at it. So, I started it in
33:152017 and I thought to myself, this is
33:18remarkable. I can fall asleep more
33:19easily if I wake up in the middle of the
33:21night. I know how to turn my mind off.
33:24>> Do that again.
33:25>> I do it again for 10 minutes. There's
33:27also an eye movement trick that you can
33:28do. You want to hear something really
33:30wacky? So, there's a paper published a
33:32few years ago where they developed this
33:34giant bed that rocks back and forth and
33:36people fall asleep very quickly. Hm.
33:39Okay. Well, I don't have a rocking bed.
33:41You don't have a rocking bed. it's not
33:43very practical. There's also a paper
33:45published in um a really fine journal
33:47showing that there's a particular rate
33:49of walking and swaying that parents
33:51naturally find that puts their baby to
33:53sleep and it matches the same rocking
33:55speed, right? It's a very slow back and
33:57forth rocking. Say, okay, this is
33:58age-old wisdom, but what does this do?
34:02You would think it was the physical
34:03sensation and in some sense it is but
34:07turns out and this is the basis of some
34:08new technologies that I'm not a part of
34:11but I've had the opportunity to try of
34:12eye masks that can induce sleep. The
34:15next time you have trouble falling
34:16asleep or getting back to sleep. Keeping
34:18your eyes closed slowly move your eyes
34:20to one side then to the other side.
34:24Then you're going to move your eyes
34:25counterclockwise. I told you it would be
34:27kind of crazy. Then clockwise. Then kind
34:29of look towards the tip of your nose.
34:30You're not crossing your eyes. and then
34:32exhale. Now when you do that because
34:35there is a relationship between the eyes
34:37and your cerebellum this area of your
34:39brain that is primitive area of your
34:42brain that controls balance
34:45you disrupt the what we call
34:47proprioceptive circuits. Proprioception
34:50is the knowledge of where your limbs are
34:52in space. To fall asleep you need to
34:54forget your body position. This is the
34:57first critical step in falling asleep
34:59that nobody talks about. And so now
35:01there's some really interesting
35:02technology stimulating and inhibiting
35:04certain brain areas that control
35:06propriception and it makes people sleepy
35:09and they fall asleep. So as crazy as
35:12this sounds,
35:13>> this really works.
35:14>> It really works. It really works. Now if
35:16you're if you drink four cups of coffee
35:18and you're ruminating over something,
35:20it's not going to override that. But if
35:22you wake up in the middle of the night,
35:24you go to the restroom, for instance,
35:25you I woke up, I go back, maybe it's
35:27noisy, someone made a noise. Close your
35:29eyes and with your eyes closed you're
35:31gonna move your eyes to doesn't matter
35:33to the left or right first you go one
35:35side then the other side maybe do it
35:37again if you want then counterclockwise
35:39clockwise then you kind of point your
35:41eyes toward your midline or your your
35:43nose and then you exhale and you forget
35:47body position many many people who I've
35:50taught this to write to me and say I
35:52can't believe it but I then wake up the
35:53next morning it's wild I did it on the
35:55plane ride here I was out also these
35:58circuits that we access in yoga nidra of
36:02self-directed relaxation or of turning
36:05off propriception, our knowledge of our
36:07body position. They are amendable to
36:11plasticity, which is simply to say that
36:12they get stronger in response to these
36:15behaviors over time. The plasticity of
36:18these behaviors is really critical. You
36:20get better at it. The same way that I'm
36:22sure you know, you sit down and you're
36:24really excited about something, you're
36:26in immediate focus. But I'm guessing at
36:28some point in your school career, your
36:29career career, you have something you're
36:32like, I don't want to do this. But you
36:33know how to get in gear. You think,
36:35okay, what do I have to do? Maybe you
36:36watch a YouTube video. Maybe you don't.
36:38You turn on some music. You tell
36:40yourself, what's wrong with me? Like,
36:41all right, let's get this. You call
36:43someone. Let's do it. And you're in.
36:44>> Yeah,
36:45>> you know how to ramp up, but do you know
36:47how to turn it off? Do you know how to
36:49ramp down? And you know, the best
36:51athletes know how to do this. That's a
36:54skill you learn. you and so this
36:5625-year-old person I would say great you
36:58are in the peak of the opportunity to
37:01still rewire your brain in the right
37:02ways that includes get after it culture
37:06but how are you going to turn off your
37:08brain to restore reset dump the data
37:12that's not significant from the day
37:13before the the conflict you had some the
37:16thing you saw online is an attempt to
37:18steal your focus and energy and sleep
37:20>> when I go on X I'm literally it's
37:23warfare I'm I'm a benevolent player
37:26there, but you're not going to take my
37:28energy. I think about this. You're I
37:30have I have a shield up. You're not
37:31going to take my Somebody says something
37:33about me. You're I know what they're
37:35trying to do. They're losing energy by
37:37But I'm not going to let them take It's
37:39It's a video game. And you win by taking
37:43as many of those attentional resources
37:45and putting them into your health, your
37:48well-being. This includes how you treat
37:50other people. You think you're a high,
37:52can you be a like a high focus driven
37:56person and switch it off?
37:58>> That's a mental, career, financial,
38:02whatever you want to call it, physical
38:04athlete. That that's the that's the
38:07dangerous person. I don't worry about
38:09the person who can just get after it and
38:10drink 12 cups of coffee, pop an
38:12Adderall, and and just outwork
38:15everybody. So the next morning they're
38:16they're outworking everybody. Okay, see
38:19you on Thursday. I'm going to I'm going
38:21to blast past you. And I actually
38:22learned this when I was first starting
38:24off in neuroscience. I would go to
38:25meetings. I never liked drinking
38:27alcohol. First of all, I don't like the
38:29way people act when they drink alcohol.
38:31I never felt like I There might have
38:32been a few weddings or parties in my my
38:34life where like I'm with friends I
38:35really know and we have a few drinks and
38:37like there's that bonding feeling. It
38:38was great. Let's be honest, it was
38:40great. But most of the time at
38:41scientific meetings, I just noticed
38:43people being sloppy and stupid, saying
38:45dumb things, getting themselves in
38:46trouble. Also, I was there to build my
38:49career. So I thought, well, maybe in 20
38:51years when I'm a tenure professor, I'll
38:53do that. But now I'm going to bed early
38:55on night one. And on night two, those
38:58guys who are really established, like
39:00they're kind of dragging. By day three,
39:02they're falling asleep and like they're
39:04with their mouth open and drooling in
39:06the in the meetings and a bunch of
39:07students do too. These were athletes
39:09that'd be like, "This is too easy. I'm
39:11still there front row taking notes,
39:13getting my workouts in, and on the last
39:16night I might have a good time."
39:18So, it's not that I don't have a good
39:19time, but I from day one, I I'm going to
39:23pass you, not you, but you get the idea.
39:26I'm going to pass up the next person by
39:28what I don't do as much as what I do.
39:31>> And we don't hear about this cuz it's a
39:33little bit hard to put all this into a
39:3590-cond clip on social media. So, a lot
39:37of get after itself. Take this peptide,
39:39take this stimulant. And listen, I love
39:41caffeine and I think there's a place for
39:43these tools, but it's much easier to get
39:45in gear. How do you do that day in day
39:47out consistently? Have a reset day. One
39:50day per week I don't exercise. I try and
39:53spend as much time in fresh air,
39:55sunshine, and relaxation as I can, but
39:57if I can't, I might just veg all day.
40:00>> Like do nothing half a day, watch a
40:03movie with my girlfriend, relax, just
40:05kick back, hang out, be I call it I I
40:07sort of joke it's it's our zero cortisol
40:09day. No such thing as a zero c. I still
40:10get the sunlight in the morning at that
40:12cortisol peak. You know, I didn't
40:13emphasize this enough before, but I'll
40:15just return to the if you have a high
40:16morning cortisol peak. Any stress that
40:19comes, you'll be able to deal with it.
40:21There's actually really good data on
40:22this. I I'm not here to plug my book,
40:24but I have this book, Protocols, which
40:25discusses this, that the return to
40:28baseline of of cortisol after a stressor
40:31is much faster if you had high morning
40:32cortisol. The worst situation is a
40:35what's called flattening of the morning
40:36of the cortisol curve across the day
40:38where it's not a big peak in the
40:39morning. It's kind of high midish
40:41baseline into the evening. Any stress
40:43that comes is riding on an higher
40:45baseline. Now it's carrying into the
40:47evening. It disrupt it's shown to
40:49disrupt all sorts of things. Blood
40:50glucose regulation, all the negative
40:52effects of cortisol, so-called chronic
40:54stress are really about afternoon and
40:56nighttime high cortisol. We're never
40:58told this. Also, if you're somebody who
41:00uses, for instance, ashwagandha to
41:02suppress cortisol, that should
41:04definitely be done in the final hours of
41:05the day, not in the morning. Small
41:07amounts in the early part of the day,
41:08fine. later in the day not so good. I
41:11don't recommend people take ashwagandha
41:13for long periods of time maybe for
41:15>> two for well
41:18it potently reduces cortisol you know by
41:20one study depending on the amount but
41:22600 milligrams you know twice you know
41:25or so um can reduce cortisol
41:28significantly by about 30%. You want
41:30high morning cortisol. So you want in
41:31the afternoon. I would say if you're
41:33going to reduce cortisol using
41:34ashwagandha at high doses, you want to
41:37limit that to about two weeks without
41:39taking and then take two weeks off. In
41:41moderate doses, you know, 300 up to 600
41:43milligrams is probably fine to take
41:45consistently, but in the second half of
41:47the day, um, some people take things to
41:49fall asleep. I I I think things like
41:51magnesium, theine, apagenine, which is
41:53chamomile tea, or things like
41:55ashwagandha, can help. But if you're not
41:57doing all the right behaviors, it's
42:00going to make a trivial impact. And I
42:02have been somewhat um you know bullish
42:05on experimenting with things like
42:06pinealon which is a peptide that can
42:08help increase REM sleep, but only every
42:10once in a while. I don't think it's good
42:12to rely on pharmarmacology to induce
42:14sleep too often. Also because you're
42:16shortcircuiting your ability to turn
42:18your mind on
42:19>> but I do like stimulants early in the
42:21day. In particular, caffeine. That's the
42:24my main stimulant. Alpha GPC and things
42:26of that sort. Energy drinks. Do you use
42:29nicotine? It seems like everyone uses
42:31nicotine now. Go. Good for you. You
42:32might be the one male under 40 I've met
42:35that doesn't take nicotine. You know,
42:36nicotine creates an alert but calm
42:38state, which is a very coveted state.
42:40It's hard to get that state, but it does
42:42increase blood pressure and it's very,
42:44very habit forming. I mean, you see
42:45these guys who they start with one 3
42:47milligram pouch and a six milligram
42:49pouch. Pretty soon it's five pouches a
42:51day. I love competing with those guys
42:54because in a few years they're going to
42:56have other issues.
42:57>> So like I'm my dad who's a scientist
43:01taught taught me this long ago. He said,
43:03"Listen, you got to learn to be a
43:05long-distance runner. This is a long
43:07game. [snorts] You want to win the long
43:09game. You want to win the short and the
43:10medium game, too, but you want to win
43:11the long game." And anyone can push hard
43:15in the short term, but they're just and
43:17you're going to see you're just going to
43:18see people start dropping out. So take
43:21care of those final hours of the day.
43:22Learn to turn it off. You can also
43:24practice yoga nidra with a 10, 20 or 30
43:27minute script. They're all there, you
43:28know, tons of them on YouTube. We have
43:30some on our web page. They're all zero
43:32cost. They're all it just depends on
43:34what you like. You could do the practice
43:35that in the day. If you don't get enough
43:37sleep, for instance, I highly recommend
43:40doing it first thing when you wake up in
43:41the morning to recover the sleep you
43:42didn't get. It's very potent at
43:45recovering mental and physical vigor. If
43:48you can't do it, then in the afternoon,
43:49I always have a little bit of a dip
43:50around 2 PM. If I didn't sleep enough
43:52the night before, I religiously do a a
43:56yoga nidra between 2 and 3 p.m., maybe
43:58even 10 minutes, ideally 20 or 30. Come
44:01out of that, hydrate, maybe a little bit
44:03of caffeine. Boom, you're right back.
44:05There's now data showing that pockets of
44:07the of your sleep of your brain go into
44:09deep sleep and maybe even REM sleep
44:11while you do Nidra. So, it's very
44:12restorative. There is no pill that will
44:15do this. There's no pill that will do
44:17this.
44:18>> And you don't do that at night
44:19>> yoga nidra
44:20>> before sleeping.
44:21>> I generally don't because I don't have
44:23trouble falling asleep. The challenge
44:24I've had over the years is falling
44:25asleep and then waking up at 2 or 3 or 4
44:27in the morning and not being able to go
44:29back to sleep. The eye movement trick
44:30plus doing nijra during the daytime has
44:33I have the ability to turn my mind off
44:36and go back to sleep. Well, the real key
44:38to becoming what you call dangerous and
44:39ultra resilient or antifragile, whatever
44:41language you want to use, is you learn
44:44to recognize what state you're in. This
44:46is this is the piece actually that sits
44:49even deeper than all the rest. You know,
44:52the oracle said it first, but know
44:53thyself. You have to know where you're
44:55at. Am I in a good state? Am I in a
44:57vulnerable state? If I go on social
44:59media now and I see something that
45:01upsets me, am I just going to go down
45:02that rabbit hole? We all like to think
45:05we can just blaze through life, but
45:07knowing where you're at is like checking
45:09the checking the engine, checking the
45:11machine, is like the steering aligned.
45:13And I don't sleep as much as I need to
45:16or I have stressors in my life. My
45:18steering is not aligned. So, I have to
45:19do other things to keep myself in check.
45:22>> Um, you don't.
45:22>> Yeah. So, it's about building in a
45:24resilience that includes flexibility.
45:26>> And I think people hear like they think
45:28rigidity, but it's not that. You know,
45:31I'm working really hard on having a turn
45:32off button.
45:34>> That's the hard one, right?
45:35>> It's really, really hard. And there was
45:38about like 3 years ago, there was a
45:40phase of my life where I was just like
45:43pushing through, pushing through really
45:45like
45:45>> Yeah, I get the sense you're that kind
45:46of guy.
45:47>> 3 hours, 4 hours sleep. And that's when
45:49I discovered NSDR yoga nitra from you.
45:51And they were like audios 10 minutes, 20
45:53minutes. And I was doing like three
45:55podcasts a day, like you know, just 3
45:57three hours. And then what I started
46:00doing, my team started noticing like in
46:02middle of one guest would leave and then
46:05I would have like a 30 minute break
46:07before the next guest comes right and I
46:09would put in the NSDR audio by you
46:12>> and I would just lay down and I would
46:14fall asleep like like a baby and they
46:17were like where did Raj go? Awesome.
46:20>> Like where is he? And I'm like under the
46:22table sleeping and but those 10 minutes
46:2615 minutes gave me so much energy which
46:29probably even a coffee didn't give me
46:32>> right
46:32>> that was like so good like those 10 20
46:35minutes now
46:35>> your mind needs to turn off you need to
46:37go into this some people call default
46:39mode network which is associate people
46:41get confused because the the default
46:42mode network is associated with
46:44depression if it's too high but you need
46:46to go into idle you can't just push this
46:48engine that is your brain and nervous
46:50system all the time. I mean, you can do
46:52it. The problem is you can do it for a
46:53while, but what I love about what you
46:55just described is, and this is another
46:57piece, so I'd say know thyself.
47:00Learn how to turn your mind off, meaning
47:03learn how to turn off thinking and
47:05planning. I'm not saying turn thoughts
47:07off. You can still learn how to go into
47:08pure sensation and relax. Boost your
47:11morning cortisol, keep it low at night,
47:13which allow your melatonin to be high.
47:15So, these are we're sort of building out
47:16a framework here.
47:18And then the other one is take yourself
47:21seriously.
47:22And taking yourself seriously is both
47:25hitting the gas pedal and knowing how to
47:27do that and knowing how to come off the
47:29gas pedal so that you can come back and
47:30do it again. You gave a really great
47:32example. What I heard, what I thought as
47:34you told me that story is awesome.
47:37You're taking yourself seriously. You're
47:39you're the equivalent of a professional
47:41athlete or somebody who's studying for
47:43their boards for neurosurgery for
47:45medical school, whatever. somebody's
47:48doing
47:5015 years old, 20 years old, 25 years
47:52old. Take yourself seriously. Now,
47:54people hear that and they think, uh,
47:56more rigidity, no fun, no laughter. No,
47:59laughter is great. Having a great time
48:01with your team is great, but the people
48:03who become leaders, the people who win
48:05in their fields, the people that do it
48:07consistently over time and enjoy the
48:09process and have healthy lives
48:11internally and externally,
48:13they know how to switch it off and they
48:17take themselves seriously. And you know
48:19it was um I think it probably comes from
48:22my dad's side you know that I I would go
48:25to these scientific meetings and I was
48:27like how could these people be like so
48:30serious about their careers but then
48:32they sort of like are like partying
48:33through the meeting and I realized oh
48:35many of them are actually just really
48:38brilliant so they can do this. None of
48:40those people are around anymore. They're
48:42not in the field anymore. like natural
48:45proclivities and and genetic gifts,
48:47they'll carry you pretty far. But the
48:49people with genetic gifts and natural
48:51proclivities and circumstantial gifts
48:53[snorts] that take themselves really
48:55seriously, they we know they they excel.
48:59Okay, most of us have some opportunities
49:03and advantages afforded to us. Some
49:05people have none. The only way for all
49:08these people, all three categories of
49:10people to excel in the long term is you
49:12have to take yourself seriously. And
49:14people will hear this and they'll think
49:16uh like Huberman, he's just like take
49:18it. Yeah, take it. You've been gifted
49:20this life, right? It doesn't mean you
49:22don't smile, smile, experience joy, take
49:25a day and just completely relax. You you
49:27want to be present to people. But if you
49:29don't take these things seriously, what
49:30ends up happening is you default to the
49:34mean, the dominant culture that you're
49:36surrounded with. So if you're around
49:39people that like to work hard, play
49:41hard, okay, cool. But pretty soon you're
49:43playing as hard as you're working and
49:45that doesn't look so good over time.
49:47Okay? Or you're around people that have
49:49given up or they're getting depressed
49:50and now you're not the person that can
49:52be there to really support them. You're
49:54one of them.
49:56So, nobody is made of steel, right?
50:00We're not robots. But take yourself
50:02seriously. Take your life seriously. And
50:04I know your listeners do that. But I
50:06think that perhaps they've been taught
50:09or they've they've convinced themselves
50:10that to take oneself seriously is to
50:12never come off the gas pedal.
50:15>> You know, Formula 1 driver knows like
50:17that it's not just pit stops. The car
50:19needs care. It needs love. It needs
50:21rest. But when you rest and how you rest
50:24is absolutely key. And the other piece
50:26of it is, you know, that becomes tricky
50:29is, you know, which people belong in
50:31your life, which people don't. And
50:33that's a tough one because it starts to
50:34sound rigid. You know, when I hear about
50:36people's like, I eliminate all toxicity
50:38from my life. There's no such thing.
50:39Toxicity comes through the phone.
50:41There's no such thing. They're going to
50:42be people who have challenges and
50:43they're not handling them well. Are you
50:45going to be in a position where you can
50:46help lead them and guide them and uh and
50:49be the calm in their storm so that they
50:52can hopefully if you need it be the calm
50:54in your storm. That's how it works. So I
50:58love that you do nidra in between. And
51:00if listen if one day you decide you know
51:03every once in a while you just scroll
51:04Instagram instead cool if you reset.
51:06[snorts] What you don't want to do is
51:08scroll Instagram thinking I should be
51:09doing yoga nidra or I should be doing
51:10the other thing. When our mind is split
51:12between two places, that's the most
51:15taxing thing. When we're trying to
51:17focus, but we can't. When we're trying
51:19to sleep, but we can't. The mind thrives
51:22on kind of unitary states, but those are
51:26hard to get into. We need to train
51:27ourselves to get into them. And sadly,
51:30the mind defaults to unitary states like
51:33anger and frustration very easily. And
51:36most of the algorithmic stuff that not
51:39all of it but a lot of it is designed to
51:41get you into those states very quickly
51:42so you're not doing anything else.
51:44>> Yeah.
51:44>> So yeah,
51:46>> you know this used to be one of the
51:48biggest lies that I used to believe in
51:49that you don't need an off button. And
51:51I've I've been this hustle hustle hustle
51:54work work be obsessed. I' I've been like
51:56a kind of a poster boy for a lot of my
51:59life just like that in my family and
52:01friends and I've been there and I've
52:03realized in last couple of years like
52:06not not even couple of like very
52:08recently that you need to take a break
52:10you need to actually have an off button
52:12and now I'm very consciously practicing
52:14that trying to take an off right
52:17>> what has been what do you think like
52:19what's the biggest lie you know which is
52:23which we hear in the world about mental
52:26toughness or about elite performance.
52:28>> Yeah, great question. I think put
52:29simply, it's that the goal is to just
52:31build a bigger and bigger capacity.
52:34>> What we don't acknowledge and people
52:36need to understand is that the better
52:39you get at something, this is a it's a
52:41weird one. The better you get at
52:42something,
52:44the more of an inroad into your energy
52:47it creates. Now, this is weird, right?
52:49Because when you're first learning
52:50something, it takes a lot of energy.
52:52Then you get
52:53>> you get fluid with it. You can sit down
52:55and podcast. I can sit down and podcast
52:57under most any conditions, right? As
52:59long as there's enough oxygen in the
53:00room. And maybe even if there's not, you
53:02and I can have a great podcast. We just
53:04know how to do it. But to really drop
53:06into your craft and I don't care if it's
53:09podcasting or finance or sport or
53:11medicine,
53:13it creates an inroad into your energy
53:16and it is greater than when you're not
53:20very skilled at something because you're
53:21you're engaging more and more and more
53:23focus. So I think there's two things.
53:25The early part of any career, you have
53:28to find your edge. Okay, so this runs a
53:30little bit countercurrent to everything
53:31I've said, but you're trying to figure
53:32out, yeah, how how little sleep can I
53:35exist on? Okay, I break at two nights no
53:38sleep. Okay, I break. I can do one
53:40night. In fact, I did it last week.
53:4230-hour work stretch with my business
53:43partner. Haven't done that in a long
53:45time. We did it. It hurt. We did it. We
53:49carried each other. I was like, I could
53:50tell when my mind was getting wobbly. He
53:52would step in. We would do things. And
53:53we did it. We had to do it. Feels good.
53:55I don't really want to do that again for
53:57a long while. Um but I built that
53:59capacity over many years. Okay, you
54:01build that capacity by finding your
54:03edge. Now you don't want to die or
54:05injure yourself or become mentally sick
54:08but you get to that edge and then you
54:10stay away from that edge and then so I
54:13would say in the first year or two of
54:14doing something go for it. Just go all
54:17in.
54:19Reset only
54:21as needed to just keep coming back. Keep
54:23coming back. Keep coming back. But at
54:25some point you're going to hit a wall.
54:26You want that wall to be a non-lethal
54:28wall. Okay, you want that wall to be I'm
54:30exhausted. I need a week off. I can't
54:34afford a week off. Okay, I hit my wall.
54:36That's my limit. What can I do every day
54:38at this point consistently over time and
54:40work around that average? It's going to
54:42balance around that average plus or
54:43minus 2 hours or so. So, for me, I like
54:46you, I have a a pretty large capacity.
54:49If I do the right things in between, on
54:51the way here, I cleared my mind. On the
54:53flight in, I slept. I know how to clear
54:55my mind and reset, but I can probably do
54:59anywhere from
55:01depends on the work. Um, anywhere from
55:065 to 10 hours of real work per day, real
55:09work. Okay, that's not including the
55:11lunch break. It's not including the
55:12walk. So, like
55:14>> five is doable.
55:16>> 6 to 7 is doable. Hurts a bit more. 10
55:19hurts. The next day, I'm not doing 10.
55:22I'm borrowing from the next day where I
55:24can only do five, right? Okay. And you
55:26know this, but I had to find that. I had
55:28to establish that you build that up the
55:30same way you build up strength. You
55:32know, there's a beautiful parallel to
55:33resistance training. Everyone knows,
55:35okay, you you do your sets and reps, you
55:37take the reps to failure or close to
55:38failure, you allow some period of time,
55:40the muscle gets stronger, you come back.
55:42But an old principle from resistance
55:45training that's still very true is as
55:47you get better at it, you know how to
55:49really cramp the muscle hard. you know
55:51how to really push. You know when the
55:53when the harder reps are coming, you get
55:55better at inducing the stimulus, the
55:58stress stimulus that causes the the
56:00adaptation of growth and and strength
56:02increase.
56:04You need fewer sets after resistance
56:07training for 10, 15 years. People say,
56:08"Oh, no, no, you need to do more." No,
56:10you need to pour more into fewer sets.
56:13You have the ability to do that. Now,
56:15when somebody first starts resistance
56:16training, they can't generate that kind
56:18of focused intensity. So the more
56:20focused intensity you can bring to
56:21something, the more volume and focused
56:23intensity, the more rest you need to
56:25offset that. So what ends up happening
56:26is at your stage when you're, you know,
56:28I would say like the first year 1, two,
56:31and three, I think you can go on all gas
56:33pedal in anything. Just all gas pedal.
56:36Work, work, work, learn, learn, learn,
56:37learn, learn. Do it. Don't die. The goal
56:40is just don't die, but just go all in.
56:42Okay? Then in years four, five or so,
56:46you're learning how to create some
56:47balance and be more effective. You're
56:49trying to stay out of chronic illness.
56:51You're trying to stay out of autoimmune
56:53conditions. You're you know, this is
56:54typically if people don't do this is
56:56when their hair starts falling out. They
56:57start getting skin issues. The nervous
56:59system is
57:00>> is under stress. It's just you're that
57:02nighttime cortisol is too high. If we
57:04really want to break it down, that's
57:05what's happening. The rhythm is off. The
57:07nighttime cortisol is too high. you're
57:08not resetting the nervous system and
57:10therefore the endocrine system and
57:11therefore all the immune system and so
57:13on. And some people break at that point.
57:17>> Um, you know, I do think that there's
57:18variability. People who are very driven,
57:21who are kind of highwired. I'm of that
57:23sort. Um, you might be of that sort.
57:26They tend to have a certain physical
57:27stature. Um, they're kind of go go go.
57:29They're kind of electric and they know
57:31that electric ant feels really good,
57:32right? They tend to veer more towards
57:34towards autoimmune conditions because
57:36they can push push push push push and
57:38the the cortisol just keeps coming and
57:40they can keep going. Some people just go
57:42into like a chronic fatigue. Boom.
57:44[clears throat] They just crash. They
57:46just crash. My problem your problem is
57:48we don't crash. We keep going but we're
57:51our baseline is dropping.
57:53>> So the key is around years I would say
57:55four, five, six, you're learning to
57:57bring the balance in. Now by years 6 7
58:01there's some overlap there obviously 6 7
58:038 9 10 you're a pro. Now you're a pro.
58:08You know when you're stressed. You know
58:09when you're feeling extra good. You know
58:11when you need to nidra. You know when
58:13you need to get off your phone and go do
58:14this thing and you know what to go do.
58:16So it doesn't mean you need 10 years to
58:19get good at something. You can get real
58:21far real fast in three years. But you
58:23can't keep that pace up.
58:25>> You have to learn to dynamically
58:27regulate it. And the unit of of
58:29analysis, like the the unit of time to
58:31focus on is the day. What can I do
58:34today? This is another big part of
58:35shutting your brain off. I'm not
58:37thinking about tomorrow as its own
58:40thing. I know it's coming. I know I've
58:43got stuff to do, but what can I do today
58:46to get the most done, but know that I'm
58:48coming back tomorrow and I got to do it
58:50again. I want to do it again. So, years
58:521, 2, and three, go for it. years four,
58:56five, six, learn to dynamically regulate
58:58it. Beyond that, you're a pro
59:02>> and now you you really can start to
59:04integrate the principles of what you're
59:06and you'll and that's when you also can
59:07start guiding your team better. Hey,
59:09listen, that's a left column issue.
59:13>> Clip it.
59:14>> You know, here go do yoga. I don't want
59:17to do yoga like you're you're inhaling
59:20too much oxygen for this problem. Go
59:22turn it off. You know, I have a lock box
59:25for my phone that I still sometimes use,
59:26but I don't need it quite as much these
59:28days. But I needed that at some point
59:30because there was just too much
59:30incoming. And this is what you're really
59:34becoming a mental athlete, right? And
59:36then in terms of physical well-being, I
59:38do think that there's certain physical
59:39activities that can help reset the
59:41nervous system. People are different,
59:44but for me, once a week I need to go on
59:46a long jog or run or cycle or swim. So,
59:49it's an hour slow, really slow. I do
59:52that typically on Sundays. I like to do
59:53it out ofdoors. I might do it socially
59:56uh with someone else or other people,
59:58but it's a it's an endurance thing. I'll
1:00:01listen to podcasts or books and I'll
1:00:03just like, go, this last Sunday I just
1:00:04went for a slow jog, you know, out and
1:00:07back 45 minutes. The whole work of the
1:00:10thing is to not go any faster and just
1:00:13do it. That takes me into the week. I
1:00:16start my week with a hard leg workout.
1:00:17That's how I like to do it, but it's
1:00:19brief. It's only about an hour. Two a
1:00:22couple warm-up sets and a couple hard
1:00:24work sets for each muscle group. So that
1:00:27means some belt squats or some leg
1:00:29presses or some, you know, and some
1:00:30hamstring curls and taken to failure.
1:00:32Two or three sets. This is important.
1:00:34You want to keep the body strong,
1:00:35especially the lower body. You get that
1:00:37out of the way early in the week. But I
1:00:38don't push to exhaustion because it's
1:00:40Monday and I have a long week ahead.
1:00:42Next day, rest. I didn't do any exercise
1:00:45today. I try and walk in the morning. I
1:00:47get my sunlight. I do these things, but
1:00:49take that day off after the leg day. A
1:00:52day later, depending on how I feel, I
1:00:55might do some resistance training again,
1:00:57but typically I will do some sort of
1:01:00easier cardio, only about 30 minutes,
1:01:02just keep the cardiovascular system
1:01:04going, blood flow to the brain. These
1:01:05things really help improve brain
1:01:07function, blood flow, uh, improve sleep
1:01:09and so on, but nothing excessive. The
1:01:12next day, I'll do some sort of pushing
1:01:13and pulling. So, some pressing movements
1:01:16for the chest, some pressing movements
1:01:17overhead, some chin-up type movement,
1:01:19and some rowing type movement, some
1:01:21abdominals. So, it's just kind of like
1:01:22general torso stuff. Same principle, a
1:01:25couple warm-up sets, couple hard work
1:01:27sets to failure of each exercise. You're
1:01:29done in an hour. And then the next day,
1:01:31I do some sort of cardio, very brief, to
1:01:35get my heart rate way, way up. V2 max
1:01:37type training, just once a week. Get on
1:01:39the aerodine bike, warm up for a minute,
1:01:41and then pedal hard hard for 20, 30
1:01:43seconds. Rest 20 seconds, and then
1:01:45repeat hard, hard, hard, um, something
1:01:48like that for six rounds. By the end,
1:01:50your heart rate is maxed out. You feel
1:01:52like you want to die, but then the rest
1:01:54of the day is pretty easy.
1:01:55>> This rhythm works very well because
1:01:58you'll get strong, you'll have
1:02:01endurance, you'll have the ability to
1:02:03sprint and go fast. You're not going to
1:02:05be the fastest or the or the best
1:02:07runner. You're not going to be the
1:02:08strongest, but you're going to have
1:02:09all-around fitness. Your posture will be
1:02:11good. I'm 50 years old. I've been
1:02:13training this way for 35 years, and I
1:02:15can tell you, uh, anyone can do this.
1:02:18Male, female, whatever age or hormone
1:02:20status, you can do this. But you need to
1:02:23find your walls. You need to find your
1:02:25limits. And then you need to decide if
1:02:27if you're going to push past them. And
1:02:28and I think for me the the real joy is
1:02:31in trying to share tools with people
1:02:34like the morning cortisol stuff, the low
1:02:35nighttime cortisol stuff, and the many
1:02:37other protocols we cover in a so that
1:02:39they can set themselves up to be in the
1:02:41best position to succeed over time. Cuz
1:02:44if you don't get that right, you're not
1:02:45going to succeed over time.
1:02:47>> You know, there are many things you can
1:02:49take to give you energy. There are many
1:02:51books you can read for inspiration. I
1:02:54don't even think about inspiration
1:02:55anymore. what
1:02:57>> I just don't I I think um I try and look
1:03:00for themes in the world where I like to
1:03:05interact with people
1:03:07like you, like my friend Eddie that I
1:03:09saw do neurosurgery this morning who are
1:03:11like really in their element cuz there's
1:03:13a vibe that comes from that and and over
1:03:15time you just find that you're just
1:03:17surrounded by people like that.
1:03:18>> Agreed.
1:03:20>> Right. you just it's like it's like a
1:03:21it's like a bunch of tributaries come
1:03:22together and then like
1:03:24>> I'll encounter people during the day
1:03:26that are struggling and they'll say,
1:03:27"Hey, do you have any advice?" And of
1:03:29course, I'll stop and give them my time.
1:03:31But as you continue to do well and and
1:03:34take care of yourself, you just notice
1:03:36your whole world is made up of people
1:03:38that are like really positive and then
1:03:40you don't have to worry so much about
1:03:41all the like the the downer stuff. It's
1:03:44also important to keep in mind that when
1:03:45you go online, you're in the you're in
1:03:47the open waters of of everything from
1:03:51very healthy to really just like
1:03:53mentally ill. Like we have to remember
1:03:55that on the internet a lot of people are
1:03:58not well and they're stressed and
1:03:59they're tired and they're um and you can
1:04:03send them love, but do not let any of
1:04:06that erode your well-being. You cannot I
1:04:08mean, you're a public figure. Uh I I
1:04:11became a public figure at 45 and I'm 50
1:04:13now. Um I like what do you do? I mean
1:04:17that's it that takes a lot of strength
1:04:18of mind in order to not because I'm sure
1:04:20people say many many kind things but
1:04:22occasionally people try and puncture
1:04:24your balloon by just being unkind
1:04:26because they're they're
1:04:29>> they're kind of semi-broken people.
1:04:31>> So how do you deal with that? Like what
1:04:33is your what is your tool?
1:04:34>> I don't it doesn't affect me. I don't
1:04:36know why. Like it just
1:04:37>> Oh yeah. Healthy upbringing. Your
1:04:39parents must have done something well.
1:04:41>> I absolutely thank them. Yes.
1:04:43>> For sure. It it doesn't affect me at
1:04:45all.
1:04:45>> Uhhuh.
1:04:46>> Like things and I have a similar thing
1:04:49which
1:04:50>> and we're not just saying that for the
1:04:51cameras. It really does.
1:04:52>> Like you can ask my team or like they
1:04:54will tell you and I can tell you
1:04:55everything.
1:04:56>> I mean it's my show. I can cut the wrong
1:04:57stuff as to be honest with you.
1:04:59>> No, but I really I think it's it's
1:05:00interesting that um because I think a
1:05:02lot of public figures and non-public
1:05:04figures they struggle with that. Like I
1:05:06don't I've never
1:05:09>> I've never I don't doubt myself at all.
1:05:12>> Like just
1:05:12>> great.
1:05:13>> Just say what you want to.
1:05:14>> Yeah.
1:05:15>> I I know what I'm
1:05:17>> what I'm going to do. I see every hate
1:05:19or every negative comment that I get.
1:05:22>> I see it either it's a constructive
1:05:24feedback which I probably have missed
1:05:26and it's a blind spot and I see it as
1:05:28>> perhaps perhaps not always. Yeah. No,
1:05:30not like like some of them I see it as a
1:05:32constructive feedback that oh maybe I
1:05:34missed this
1:05:35>> and some I'm like
1:05:37>> I don't care. That's your opinion. Like
1:05:39it doesn't even affect me. I just laugh
1:05:40it off.
1:05:41>> Yeah. I mean I think it's
1:05:44>> I mean it's interesting because I think
1:05:45it all starts with knowing that you're a
1:05:47fun that one talking about themselves is
1:05:50is a fundamentally good person. You
1:05:52know, I think good parenting starts with
1:05:55um children feeling loved and that they
1:05:57are, you know, born into and are of
1:06:00goodness, right? Because I think that
1:06:02people who don't feel that way um are
1:06:05very susceptible to to criticism, right?
1:06:08Because it gets at this question like,
1:06:09"Am I bad? Am I this?" Like, it gets to
1:06:11those things. If you if you know that
1:06:12fundamentally you have a you have a good
1:06:14heart, you you're human. You make
1:06:16mistakes, but you have a good heart,
1:06:18you're 90% of the way there, right? So
1:06:21keep that keeping that in mind. And then
1:06:23there's this peculiarity of of human
1:06:25nature that humans like I mean think
1:06:27about what it takes just think for a
1:06:29second of what it takes to go on the
1:06:32internet and take the time to send a or
1:06:36post a cruel comment about somebody.
1:06:38Just think of like how broken somebody
1:06:40has to be inside. And they're probably
1:06:42hearing this and thinking no you're the
1:06:44one that's you know but no like just
1:06:46think about that. And I I don't say this
1:06:48with any smuggness or pleasure. It's
1:06:50like, wow. Like, I wouldn't in a million
1:06:53years think to do that for amusement,
1:06:57for pleasure, for like it's net negative
1:07:00for everybody. You're down
1:07:02>> wired that way.
1:07:03>> What's that?
1:07:04>> You're not wired that way.
1:07:06>> I don't get it. I really don't get it.
1:07:07And and so if people are feeling um
1:07:11aggravated by content they see online
1:07:14about themselves or others, they should
1:07:16really keep in mind what it takes to um
1:07:19to to kind of like how how broken and
1:07:24sad somebody must be inside in order to
1:07:26do that. So I if I see something I like,
1:07:27I try and I send them love.
1:07:29>> I just try and send them love. Good
1:07:31luck. Good, you know, love like you
1:07:34know, but it's um it's great that you
1:07:35don't you don't suffer from that. Like I
1:07:37I think we don't talk about it often but
1:07:40my parents and my brother like my family
1:07:42in particular they did an incredible
1:07:45job. I grew up in a joint family
1:07:48>> and one thing which they gave what is
1:07:50joined family?
1:07:51>> Join it's like we were 10 people in one
1:07:53house.
1:07:54>> Okay.
1:07:54>> So join family is when you
1:07:56>> uh like your mom and dad, you your
1:07:58brother, my uncle, aunt, my grandma,
1:08:01grandfather, everybody lived in one
1:08:02house.
1:08:02>> Oh, how cool. Yeah.
1:08:04>> Yeah. We don't typically have that here.
1:08:05That's awesome.
1:08:06>> So we call it joint family and nuclear
1:08:08family. Nuclear is when the way you guys
1:08:10live here like mom, dad, kids.
1:08:12>> Yeah. Well, that's the best of
1:08:14circumstances. Typically nowadays
1:08:16there's I mean divorce is rampant here,
1:08:18right? My parents divorced. They both
1:08:20got remarried. I was very young. It was
1:08:22very disruptive. Very disruptive to my
1:08:24whole psychology. But um but it worked
1:08:26out and I loved them all and you know
1:08:28but we certainly didn't all live under
1:08:29one roof. So that's cool. So you would
1:08:32wake up in the morning, how many people
1:08:33would you see in your kitchen? 10 people
1:08:36just like [laughter]
1:08:36>> amazing
1:08:37>> and every weekend I would have like
1:08:40cousins over so we would be like 30
1:08:42people in one house.
1:08:44>> So I've I've born and brought up in that
1:08:46and I think one incredible thing it's
1:08:49like
1:08:51a they did a great job because they they
1:08:54gave me so much self-belief which I'm
1:08:57just grateful. I don't know why they did
1:08:58that and how they they did that but they
1:09:00did that very beautifully. Even today my
1:09:03brother, my cousins, my everybody just
1:09:05believes so much. So that's an
1:09:07incredible thing. The other is also when
1:09:09you're born with so many people all
1:09:12around. You get immune to criticism
1:09:16>> because you're since childhood, you've
1:09:18been constantly compared [laughter]
1:09:21>> like you're compared to your cousin,
1:09:22you're compared to your brother, you're
1:09:24compared to the five people in family
1:09:26>> and you've been like you've been shout
1:09:28at, you've been abused on like just
1:09:30verbally about certain things. So, you
1:09:33get so immune that by the time you're an
1:09:35adult, the outside world doesn't affect
1:09:37you at all.
1:09:38>> That's so interesting. Um,
1:09:40>> like it make you
1:09:41>> I didn't know this existed, by the way.
1:09:42And I think most Americans won't know
1:09:44this this uh joint family joint family
1:09:47structure. But I have to say, you know,
1:09:49early on in life, I um I joined some
1:09:52sports and some other things where I was
1:09:53in a just a big pack of young guys.
1:09:56>> And you take a lot of we call it here
1:09:59ribbing, right? You take a lot of like
1:10:00joking and hazing and I mean people are
1:10:03rough on each other verbally and you
1:10:04learn that it's an expression of love.
1:10:06>> Yeah.
1:10:07>> Sometimes it's an expression of real
1:10:08criticism but it makes you resilient.
1:10:11And when I went into science listen in
1:10:13science you are constantly being told
1:10:15that's not good enough change the paper.
1:10:17That's not good enough for I mean it's
1:10:18non-stop no not good enough. Finally
1:10:22okay do it again. So I've never
1:10:26um I assume crit criticism is part of
1:10:30the the process. So similarly so
1:10:32different it came from my friendship in
1:10:34my my work community but it was constant
1:10:37barrage of critique critique critique
1:10:40critique including some like you make
1:10:42some embarrassing mistakes and you have
1:10:43to live with that shame and recover from
1:10:45it and know that you're still loved or
1:10:47that you love yourself. So there are
1:10:48some parallels but I think the fact that
1:10:50you had that at home from such a young
1:10:53age and now when you go home how like
1:10:56when you visit is it it's a huge group.
1:10:58>> Oh yeah that's beautiful.
1:11:00>> Now they're very proud. Of course they
1:11:02don't criticize me anymore but
1:11:03>> but you're you're now you're becoming a
1:11:05leader of the family, right? An example.
1:11:08>> Yeah.
1:11:09>> Yeah.
1:11:09>> Yeah.
1:11:09>> Yeah.
1:11:10>> And you're and you're fine with that
1:11:11pressure. It sound I I get the sense
1:11:13that you feel calm in that pressure.
1:11:16>> That's great.
1:11:16>> Yeah. Yeah. I'm okay with that. Yeah,
1:11:18it's wonderful. No, I think it's
1:11:19wonderful. I'm learning from you. I
1:11:20think I I don't think you see that
1:11:23mindset in uh American households that
1:11:26much.
1:11:26>> But you know, in like
1:11:29my current state of reality has not
1:11:31changed their attitude towards me at
1:11:33all.
1:11:34>> Mhm.
1:11:35>> Like does it make sense?
1:11:36>> That helps. Yeah. Keeps you humble.
1:11:38>> They just
1:11:39>> they're the same people and they would
1:11:41>> put me to ground and they would leave no
1:11:44opportunity to thrash me whenever they
1:11:45get
1:11:46>> Well, that's that's good, too. Yeah. And
1:11:47it's a way of love.
1:11:48>> Yeah, absolutely. No, I think that's
1:11:50very very important. I mean, I am
1:11:53relieved to hear it because I I worry
1:11:56about people that become very successful
1:11:58very young. You know, I was reasonably
1:12:01well I was a very aspiring kid. Then I
1:12:03had some rough years. Then I would been
1:12:05you know the scientific the I my
1:12:07scientific career went very well. I had
1:12:08to work very very hard but it went very
1:12:10very well. Um but I was surrounded you
1:12:12know at Stanford School of Medicine. and
1:12:14you look to your left, you look to your
1:12:15right, everybody's doing awesome stuff.
1:12:19And some of them are doing I mean, I've
1:12:20got colleagues that will win Nobel
1:12:22prizes, have won Nobel prizes. That that
1:12:24wasn't me. I knew that like I it was a
1:12:27good scientist. I think I am a good
1:12:29scientist, but I also know knew my
1:12:31level, my place. Um I do feel I deserved
1:12:34and deserve to be there. But when you're
1:12:36surrounded by people that are like the
1:12:38Michael Jordans of their field, the
1:12:39LeBrons of their of you go like Eddie
1:12:42Chang, my I mean like he's on a whole
1:12:44other level, a whole other level. And
1:12:47he'll be like no no like yes, completely
1:12:50different as a clinician, as a
1:12:52scientist. So it raises you your
1:12:55standard is very high. But I think that
1:12:57one thing that's great is that I became
1:13:00public facing at a time when I was 45
1:13:02years old. So my personality and my, you
1:13:05know, for better or worse, was already
1:13:06crystallized. I was not going to change
1:13:08that much. Um,
1:13:10but my friends still treat me the same.
1:13:12And I think that the the encouragement I
1:13:16heard a good one. This was actually uh I
1:13:18think it was Jaco Willing that said
1:13:20this. He said, um, you know, your really
1:13:22good friends will, and this is very like
1:13:25maleoriented,
1:13:28really good male friends, they'll give
1:13:30you the hardest time to your face, but
1:13:32they will never talk badly about you
1:13:33behind your back.
1:13:34>> Bang on.
1:13:35>> Yeah. So, that's like that's the
1:13:37critical test. Like, they should be able
1:13:38to say anything and they will give you a
1:13:40really hard time to your face, but if
1:13:42you're out of the room, they're not
1:13:44getting into any kind of gossipy stuff
1:13:45about you when you're out of the room
1:13:47and you about them. That's kind of like,
1:13:49you know, 30% of like how to be a dude.
1:13:53[laughter] Know that rule. Know that
1:13:55rule. Take and give some some flak, you
1:13:58know, when when your friend is in the
1:14:00room, when you're in the room together,
1:14:01but when you're out of the room, like
1:14:02there's just no there's no bad talking
1:14:04when people are out of the room.
1:14:05>> I think that's it's like a family of
1:14:07sorts. So anyway, I I appreciate you
1:14:09sharing a bit because um I get a sense
1:14:11of that your confidence is is very is
1:14:14very real. Um, and that doesn't arrive
1:14:18on accident. So, yeah.
1:14:19>> You said it worries you when somebody
1:14:21young gets super successful. Yeah.
1:14:23>> Why?
1:14:24>> What worries you the most?
1:14:26>> I mean,
1:14:27>> what have you seen personally?
1:14:28>> Oh my goodness. So, I've known people
1:14:31who got very popular, famous,
1:14:35and rich from athletics who really
1:14:39soared in their business pursuits.
1:14:41everything from tech to people in the
1:14:44you know world of you know culinary and
1:14:47things like that and [snorts] so many
1:14:50crash and burn. I mean attention is a
1:14:52drug if [snorts] it's misused.
1:14:56Attention recycled into creative pursuit
1:15:00into intellectual pursuit and then
1:15:02giving back more. That's a beautiful
1:15:03thing. But you look at all these
1:15:05performing artists, you know, musicians
1:15:06and so forth that like they [snorts]
1:15:09they implode. Um, and I think it's
1:15:12because
1:15:14um, like empmphetamines, like opioids,
1:15:17um, but especially like empmphetamines
1:15:19that you know the the some people if
1:15:22they don't have that solid family
1:15:24grounding, that solid internal structure
1:15:26and psychology,
1:15:28hopefully they have the family too, but
1:15:29if they don't have that, they experience
1:15:32these peaks of attention and money where
1:15:34they're the focus. Most people don't go
1:15:36through life where like they're the
1:15:37focus and then they experience this
1:15:40traumatic dip afterwards and they need
1:15:41to get back and if they can't they start
1:15:44using substances or they start spending
1:15:46it money in ways that they think that's
1:15:48going to be the the um the quote unquote
1:15:52salvation you know I mean I think
1:15:54there's a reason why at least in the
1:15:55United States so many um famous people
1:15:58eventually turn to some notion of God
1:16:00right is because they realize that
1:16:02that's a a loving relationship that will
1:16:05never leave them if they don't leave it.
1:16:08And and and in principle, it never
1:16:09leaves them anyway. Because
1:16:12when people realize, oh, you know,
1:16:15people love them only because of the
1:16:17position they're in. That's that's a
1:16:19scary thing. There are certain things
1:16:20that are immune to this. But if you
1:16:22think about it, like um there's certain
1:16:24roles that like they're only when
1:16:26they're in when somebody's in the role,
1:16:29everyone [snorts] like treats them a
1:16:30certain way and does something the
1:16:31moment they're out like that like like
1:16:33no one cares about the the ex president,
1:16:35right? They kind of do, but they're no
1:16:38longer the person other people treat.
1:16:40Well, now it's complicated because it's
1:16:41so politically divided, but you get the
1:16:43idea. But I think we've come up with
1:16:45something today that I didn't intend to
1:16:47sort of arrive at, but I do strongly
1:16:48believe. Yours 1, two, and three. Gas
1:16:51pedal.
1:16:53>> Gas pedal. Just do it. Don't damage your
1:16:55health to the extreme. Like don't do any
1:16:57crazy dang anything crazy. Don't die,
1:17:00but like just gas pedal.
1:17:03Four, five, six. Learn to dynamically
1:17:05regulate it. 7 8 9 and forward. All
1:17:08right. Now you're Now the good stuff.
1:17:11Now you can really just fine-tune and
1:17:14really and savor it, you know, like
1:17:16savor it, like really sit back every
1:17:18once in a while and be like, you know,
1:17:20like in your case, you can be like, man,
1:17:21I did that. You built something real
1:17:23because you took the risk. And that's
1:17:25what we want. I know, I can tell even
1:17:26though we don't know each other very
1:17:28well, like that's what you want for your
1:17:30audience. That's what I want for people.
1:17:32I want people to realize, yes, you may
1:17:34have an autoimmune condition. You may be
1:17:36suffering from a mental health issue.
1:17:37You need to tend to those things in very
1:17:39direct ways but get these basic things
1:17:41right. You will be amazed how much
1:17:43better your life is.
1:17:44>> Are some people built different?
1:17:48>> In what sense?
1:17:49>> In any sense like you know when you look
1:17:50at somebody who's like just on a winning
1:17:53streak. You look at them and be like you
1:17:55know that beast is built different.
1:17:58Well, certainly um
1:18:01while there are exceptions of people who
1:18:03are very genetically disadvantaged,
1:18:05overcoming that and doing tremendously
1:18:07well in sport, the example that's always
1:18:09given is like Spud Webb won the slam
1:18:10dunk competition. He's not a tall guy
1:18:12kind of thing. Okay, but hang around
1:18:15some NBA players, you realize most of
1:18:17them are very very tall, right?
1:18:19>> That's a genetic thing. This amount of
1:18:21IGF-1 and growth hormone pumped out of
1:18:23their pituitary. So, you know, um
1:18:26largely inherited. So,
1:18:28>> but from a mindset perspective,
1:18:29>> from a mindset, this is a fascinating
1:18:31issue to me. I I do believe that some
1:18:36people have more energy and it's not
1:18:38necessarily physical or mental energy,
1:18:40although it often is. It's more a sense
1:18:44of self. Like some people report this,
1:18:47they believe when they're born that
1:18:48they're like faded to do something
1:18:50something. It's like they have this kind
1:18:53of vi like level of vibration in their
1:18:56nervous system that they need to like
1:18:57take it someplace and like do something
1:18:59with this. And when you give them
1:19:01something to bite down on and they just
1:19:02go and hopefully they bite down into
1:19:04something that's generative and healthy.
1:19:06>> You know, I I uh I humans are a unique
1:19:10animal, but I spend a lot of time
1:19:11thinking about the nervous systems of
1:19:13other animals too for reasons related to
1:19:15my scientific career. Some species of of
1:19:17animals have a lot of energy and others
1:19:19are very like loafed and then they
1:19:21occasionally do something right. People
1:19:23are kind of like that too. You know, I
1:19:24do think that some people are just more
1:19:26relaxed. They they not as driven. I
1:19:28think they are still fundamentally
1:19:30important to society. And I don't say
1:19:31that just to, you know, be politically
1:19:33correct. I think that they we need
1:19:34people who are just going to tend to
1:19:37certain things day in day out on a very
1:19:40um consistent level and they're not
1:19:42trying to break out of their current
1:19:44circumstances. They're not they don't
1:19:46feel this friction with their current
1:19:47circum they're not I do think that this
1:19:49is strongly related to the dopamine
1:19:51system. I think some people they feel
1:19:53the friction of where they're at. It's
1:19:56never enough which is tricky because you
1:19:58want people to savor what they have and
1:20:00continue to strive. You don't want
1:20:01people to be always dismayed. It's not
1:20:04enough. That's not good, right? And you
1:20:06see that when people start to think, oh,
1:20:08more cars, more money, more marriages,
1:20:12in some cases more children, you know,
1:20:13like it's interesting on X, you know, I
1:20:15I spend a fair amount of time on X.
1:20:18>> It's interesting. You can learn things
1:20:19there. But there seems to be this sort
1:20:20of like competitiveness that you can
1:20:22observe and certain people like about
1:20:23kids. Great. Children are wonderful.
1:20:25They're joyful. I I love kids, right?
1:20:28But
1:20:30when people are attached to any one
1:20:32thing as being the answer, it's very
1:20:34clear where that's headed. They're not
1:20:36they're headed for dismay. You know,
1:20:38they're headed for for trouble, whether
1:20:40it's money or it's fame or anything
1:20:42else. But I do think that having a
1:20:45little bit of internal friction and
1:20:48agitation or a lot. I mean, let's be
1:20:51fair, like
1:20:54many kind of disagreeable
1:20:57uh people go on to do great things
1:20:59because they look at the world and they
1:21:01say it can be so much better.
1:21:03>> We just have to build this, you know,
1:21:05trillion dollar company or it can be so
1:21:07much better. We just have to talk about
1:21:09all these things we know that nobody's
1:21:10willing to talk about. Like in my case,
1:21:12I really believe that there's deep value
1:21:14in people understanding some basic
1:21:16science of how they work and also some
1:21:19interesting things from health and
1:21:20wellness and things from ancient really
1:21:23ancient practices like yoga nidra that
1:21:26if we can just tell it to them in the
1:21:28form of physiology like maybe they'll
1:21:30get it like that most people just I
1:21:33would say a lot of people look at the
1:21:34world and they go h like I'm just trying
1:21:37to get by. Um are they lazy? No. Are
1:21:40they worse? No, it's just I do think
1:21:42that people who like to build things
1:21:46[sighs] have to build things.
1:21:48>> But when I was in high school and I was
1:21:49involved in certain things, I was
1:21:51talking to my friends about like, let's
1:21:52get a wholesale license and build this
1:21:53company. We probably should have done
1:21:54it. It would have done very well. We
1:21:56didn't. I listened too much and we
1:21:58didn't do it. But then I went in the
1:21:59direction of another thing. And then
1:22:00when I was running my lab, I'm tenured.
1:22:02I'm at Stanford. Everything's going
1:22:03great. We're publishing articles in
1:22:04Nature. It was a premier journal. I told
1:22:06my dad I'm going to start a podcast and
1:22:07he was like [sighs] to his credit he's
1:22:10great about it now he's been a guest on
1:22:12my podcast but he's like I don't know
1:22:13that Stanford is going to like that like
1:22:14how are you going to and I'm like I
1:22:16don't care I'm doing this it's like
1:22:18you're on a you have this feeling this
1:22:21landscape of health science wellness
1:22:24whatever it is it you just know it could
1:22:28be so much better for everybody I'm
1:22:31going
1:22:32>> and I think that's a unique trait and I
1:22:34think it involves a certain amount
1:22:35amount of of um no other option type
1:22:40feeling in your body. It's like you you
1:22:41feel pulled towards it. And I think the
1:22:43hard part for people who are in this
1:22:46category are when they feel these
1:22:50valleys of I'm not as driven or like
1:22:52things are not going as well. And I can
1:22:55tell you having been in a long
1:22:56scientific career now podcasting for you
1:22:59know six years or so. How long have you
1:23:01been podcasting?
1:23:02>> This is 50th.
1:23:02>> Great. So we're colleagues,
1:23:05peers and colleagues. You know, there's
1:23:07natural cycles. You know, the YouTube
1:23:09algorithm changes a little bit. The
1:23:11pause Bob I know has video like things
1:23:12change. Experts like and it goes and
1:23:15it's being a part of being a pro is
1:23:17being able to tolerate those dips in one
1:23:20area where other areas are going great
1:23:21and then all of a sudden you're on a
1:23:22rocket ship again.
1:23:23>> Yeah.
1:23:24>> And that just comes with maturity. Um
1:23:28but quitting was never an option. Never
1:23:31an option. But see, you don't get that
1:23:33quitting as an option because you're
1:23:35wired that way, right? Same as with me.
1:23:38But there are some people who quit.
1:23:41>> And I would ask them with kindness,
1:23:45do you really want it
1:23:48or is this or are you in the wrong
1:23:50domain? Maybe you want it, but you need
1:23:53to think about what it is
1:23:55>> like. And it's tough because in years
1:23:57that years one, two, and three, it does
1:24:00take an extreme output to see how far
1:24:03you can go. But until you've given
1:24:06something, you know, three years of
1:24:08really solid effort, like bordering on
1:24:11extreme effort, you don't know where it
1:24:13can go.
1:24:14>> True.
1:24:14>> You don't really know. Um, and it's
1:24:18tough because not everyone can do that.
1:24:20you know, suddenly they find themselves
1:24:21with a new child at home and then the
1:24:23certain although many people made it
1:24:25work anyway.
1:24:26>> Let me be specific and you explain me
1:24:28what's going on in the brain because you
1:24:29used a while ago you used the word
1:24:32risk-taking. Some people are like that
1:24:33they just go at it and then we were
1:24:36talking about another situation where a
1:24:38lot of people have dreams to do certain
1:24:40things, right? So let me be very
1:24:42specific that if there are two people
1:24:46and they want to do something risky in
1:24:48their life. Okay. One sees that risk and
1:24:51jumps and then goes and does it anyway.
1:24:54The another thinks about it, plans about
1:24:57it and just about to take a jump but
1:24:59then freezes and does not take the risk.
1:25:02What happens in the brain of that person
1:25:04who's freezing and not taking the risk?
1:25:06>> Yeah, it's a great question. Well, we
1:25:07can put science to it. Um
1:25:11there's a really nice paper about the
1:25:13neuroscience of choking, but not choking
1:25:16choking. Um meaning when the stakes get
1:25:20really high and you blow it. And it's a
1:25:24beautiful experiment and it shows that
1:25:27when
1:25:29you have the opportunity to do something
1:25:31and get a little reward, you rarely
1:25:34choke. When the rewards go up and up and
1:25:36up and you start thinking about what you
1:25:38stand to gain, not what you stand to
1:25:40lose, you over the brain overrecruits
1:25:43neurons in motor cortex and very skilled
1:25:47people miss.
1:25:49>> It's fascinating and this carries over
1:25:51to people in the world of finance and
1:25:52all sorts of things. So it's not that
1:25:54they're so at a neurological level,
1:25:57maybe even at a cognitive level.
1:26:00The freezing comes from thinking too
1:26:03much about how good it could go,
1:26:06[snorts] how well it could turn out, it
1:26:07becomes overwhelming. The stakes are so
1:26:10high.
1:26:11>> Yeah.
1:26:11>> So lower the stakes. Lower the stakes in
1:26:14your mind. This is why, you know, I
1:26:17love, you know, some of these phrases
1:26:19are just cliches, but there have been
1:26:20times in my career like I my podcast is
1:26:22doing very well, but then I had this
1:26:23book I needed to finish. It's a long
1:26:25book. It's almost 650 pages. It's like
1:26:27seven books collapsed into one.
1:26:30>> Yeah. So that people could read 100
1:26:32pages on sleep and have their sleep
1:26:33worked out or stress or exercise. They
1:26:35don't I don't expect anyone to read it
1:26:36all the way through, right? You'd fall
1:26:38asleep. So cure insomnia. But but doing
1:26:41that in parallel with the podcast was a
1:26:44lot. And so the mindset in my mind was
1:26:47chop wood, carry water, which is a
1:26:49phrase which just means some days you
1:26:51don't think about why. You just chop
1:26:53wood, carry water. This is how you keep
1:26:54a village going, right? Chop wood, carry
1:26:57water. And I said, I'm doing this simply
1:26:58because I said I would chop wood, carry
1:27:00water. Resentments would come up. Why' I
1:27:02do this?
1:27:04I can get out of this. Push that aside.
1:27:06Chop wood, carry water. Took time. Took
1:27:09much longer than I thought, but you get
1:27:11there. What was I doing? It was just
1:27:14lowering the stakes. Just do it today.
1:27:16Just today. One more day. One more day.
1:27:19I think when people get to that place
1:27:20where they could do something and they
1:27:22freeze, they're imagining how great it
1:27:25could go. We think they're imagining how
1:27:27terrible it could go. But what causes us
1:27:29to choke is, oh my goodness, like so
1:27:33much is at stake. If I can't do this, I
1:27:35can't do anything. So they're psyching
1:27:36themselves out. So lower the stakes.
1:27:39Give it go all in instead of for three
1:27:41years. Go all in for three days and then
1:27:44quit. Talk to me after three days. If
1:27:45you survive three days, you can survive
1:27:47three more days. You survive those three
1:27:49days, you can another three days. And
1:27:50just keep going. Lower the like bring
1:27:52the horizon in. Bring the time horizon
1:27:54in. That's the way to do it. Now, the
1:27:56person who just jumps, we love and
1:27:59admire those people. You did it. I did
1:28:01it. But the timing has to be right, too.
1:28:04You can't be reckless. You can't be
1:28:05halfhazard. We know this, right? That's
1:28:07how you get yourself killed in physical
1:28:09endeavors. And that's how you lose
1:28:11everything in financial endeavors,
1:28:13right? You know, um what is it? I think
1:28:16it's like the Warren Buffett saying
1:28:17like, you know, there, you know, three
1:28:18things kill men in in finance. Like it's
1:28:22like a liquor, you know. Um ladies, if
1:28:25they, you know, they're not faithful,
1:28:27they pick, you know, they have crazy,
1:28:29you know, dating life and this kind of
1:28:31thing. Um and leverage, they overlever
1:28:33like you, I mean, you can be take on too
1:28:35much risk and lose, right? and the other
1:28:38two the the first two there it's worth
1:28:40mentioning I've studied many stories of
1:28:43success in the creative arts in science
1:28:45in and and to some extent even in
1:28:47podcasting now the excesses that people
1:28:51bring about when they start to do really
1:28:53well are often what take them down
1:28:55overspending
1:28:57drugs you know I mean like we've watched
1:28:59this recent Conor McGregor thing this
1:29:02guy was at the pinnacle right and I
1:29:04don't know what his specific issues were
1:29:06but too much money, too many resources,
1:29:09not enough people around you to keep you
1:29:11in check and somebody can collapse. It's
1:29:14very easy to see and to recognize when
1:29:16somebody has a substance abuse issue or
1:29:18if they have a behavioral regulation
1:29:20issue and they're like getting in fights
1:29:22in bars or things like that, you know,
1:29:23which sadly um happened to a number of
1:29:27people who are like pro aletes.
1:29:30But the excesses are also excesses of
1:29:33ego where people think, "Oh, like I won
1:29:35the last I built 10 companies. I can
1:29:38build 10 more.
1:29:40>> How about one more better than all the
1:29:42other 10?" Right? This is where I do
1:29:44think like him or hate him, I think Elon
1:29:46is particularly impressive because he
1:29:48goes for big things, but he knows
1:29:50himself. He can manage all this stuff.
1:29:52>> You know, you you said about people who
1:29:55get it. It's about their ego and then
1:29:57power and then they kind of because they
1:29:59have all excessive things they start
1:30:02losing it right
1:30:02>> and attention
1:30:03>> and and attention so I was reading a
1:30:06research very recently
1:30:07>> and I'm quoting it it was about power
1:30:11like
1:30:12>> people who get so much power
1:30:15what power does to your brain is
1:30:17equivalent to somewhat of trauma like 20
1:30:21years of research they did I I can't
1:30:24remember the specifics But if you're
1:30:27given power, your brain literally
1:30:29changes as if it changes in trauma.
1:30:31>> Interesting.
1:30:32>> Like you get more impulsive. You start
1:30:34losing real sense of reality. All of
1:30:37these things starting to happen. Your
1:30:39decisions start getting worse and worse.
1:30:41And the the more and more powerful you
1:30:43get, all of these things start happening
1:30:44to you.
1:30:45>> Yeah. Well, the world uh enforces us. I
1:30:47it it makes me think, you know, when
1:30:49when kids are young and especially with
1:30:51adolescence, like many years ago, I was
1:30:53like a camp counselor and you see this
1:30:55thing with adolescence is they're
1:30:57constantly taking things to the they're
1:30:58like testing the edges, right? But deep
1:31:00down they want you and you need to keep
1:31:02them safe and small kids are like this.
1:31:05They'll sort of go to an edge of a thing
1:31:07and they'll look to their parents like,
1:31:08"Are you looking out for me?" Right? I
1:31:10mean as we get more power, more freedom,
1:31:14we sometimes like we test it. But yeah,
1:31:18life has its own way of of correcting
1:31:20these things. Um it's tricky because I
1:31:23don't want people to feel like as they
1:31:24gain success that they should, you know,
1:31:26just sit in their chair and keep
1:31:27working. For some people, the the reward
1:31:30is the work. And I think it is important
1:31:32to make the work a significant fraction
1:31:34of the reward. Otherwise, you can't keep
1:31:36it up. You can't just do something just
1:31:38for money. Unless you Listen, I know
1:31:40some investors. They will say it. They
1:31:42love money. Why do they Why do they love
1:31:44money? I don't know. Maybe they grew up
1:31:46poor. Maybe they just love money. They
1:31:48like investing. They like winning. But
1:31:49they like earning it. They don't like
1:31:52they like earning it more than they like
1:31:54spending it. It's so cool. It's like a
1:31:57game. It's like a video game for them.
1:31:58For me, I love learning and I love
1:32:00teaching. So for me, learning and
1:32:02teaching, learning and teaching, that's
1:32:03the process. and anything that comes of
1:32:05that whether or not it's recognition or
1:32:07any financial returns are just icing
1:32:11but people naturally start to focus on
1:32:14oh well if I do this thing that's a good
1:32:16business decision this will be good for
1:32:17me and my family I mean we can have m
1:32:19multiple incentives and motivations but
1:32:21as but we have to stay attached to the
1:32:23core thing
1:32:24>> the core thing like the the the work of
1:32:26it the essence the learning and the
1:32:28teaching for me like I'm constantly
1:32:30looking for new information I think
1:32:32could be of use this conversation is
1:32:33stimulating thought I mean I I am very
1:32:36intrigued by this family model. I think
1:32:39it's really beautiful but it has I'm
1:32:40going to think about that more what it
1:32:42means what what could be adopted for
1:32:44people who don't have the access to that
1:32:46what components might be useful or rep
1:32:48replicable um and other things you said
1:32:51like I I I think because for me learning
1:32:54and thinking and teaching is what it's
1:32:57about. I do think
1:33:00if somebody's doing really well, you
1:33:02would hate for them to think, "Oh, well,
1:33:04now it's all going to just, you know,
1:33:07like come crashing down." No, you can
1:33:08make really good decisions. And one of
1:33:10the best ways to do that is to have a
1:33:12committee of people. You should not be
1:33:14making all the decisions about your life
1:33:17in the confines of your skull. You need
1:33:19people that you respect, not for every
1:33:22decision, but certain people for certain
1:33:23decisions that you can bounce things off
1:33:25of. and you don't let them make the
1:33:27decisions, but you need to pressure test
1:33:29because we can delude ourselves, right?
1:33:32But there also comes a time when you
1:33:34just say, "I'm going to ignore
1:33:35everybody. I'm going to do this." And if
1:33:36it doesn't work out, you got your
1:33:38lesson. And if it does work out, which
1:33:40often it does, you go, okay, now you're
1:33:44what we call a leader. You're you have
1:33:46knowledge and experience that they don't
1:33:48have. And that's a great place to find
1:33:50yourself. And I as we I describe this,
1:33:52I'm thinking there's probably some
1:33:53people who are not even started to build
1:33:55their business or build their life.
1:33:57Everything we're talking about is
1:33:59accessible. It truly is accessible. You
1:34:02take care of your physical body and your
1:34:03biological rhythms. You if you can't get
1:34:06all the exercise every week, you get
1:34:08some. You you lean into some mission,
1:34:11some adventure that stands to have a
1:34:13payoff. You avoid the excesses. You
1:34:15don't get into extremes of work and
1:34:17partying. you don't get into extremes of
1:34:20anything except maybe in that first
1:34:21three years you go all in. I've never
1:34:23seen it fail and that's true across
1:34:26cultures. Now there are some areas of
1:34:28the world that are very like where
1:34:30people just cannot move because of like
1:34:32very oppressive regimes and things like
1:34:34that but that's not what we're talking
1:34:35about. Um
1:34:38and I think people should spend a bit of
1:34:40time thinking about what's really true
1:34:42for them and what they want to pursue.
1:34:43It's also just good to go after
1:34:45something in the short term. just get
1:34:48really good at something and then it
1:34:50allows you to pivot into the next thing
1:34:51because the process is the same.
1:34:53>> But do you think we have to try doing
1:34:56this constantly
1:34:58in order to achieve something like all
1:35:00these protocols trying to win, trying to
1:35:02do something? Because isn't our brain
1:35:05designed to just keep us alive, not make
1:35:08us thrive in life?
1:35:09>> I think humans are different. I think
1:35:11humans were afforded all the areas of
1:35:13the brain for survival. But we have this
1:35:17expanded prefrontal cortex that allows
1:35:19us to set strategy and build things,
1:35:21imagine technologies, take our
1:35:23experiences that are hard for people
1:35:25with traumas, build something beautiful
1:35:27out of that. Take our experiences that
1:35:29were loving and supportive and afforded
1:35:31us incredible opportunities. Build
1:35:33something beautiful out of it. I mean,
1:35:34this is the story of of human uh human
1:35:37history. We are different. We are not
1:35:40just about survival. The moment our
1:35:41basic needs are met, we have two
1:35:43options. We either can get anxious and
1:35:45dissolve into a puddle of our own
1:35:47anxious thoughts or we can take those
1:35:50anxieties [snorts] and funnel them into
1:35:51doing something which advances us. This
1:35:54is a binary choice. There is no in
1:35:56between. Most people bounce back and
1:35:58forth a little bit naturally at 2 or 3
1:36:00in the morning when they wake up.
1:36:01Everyone does it. But on average, you
1:36:03want to be veering into that right lane
1:36:06of doing something. The anxiety
1:36:08oftentimes,
1:36:10not always, but oftentimes, I would even
1:36:12say the majority of the time, is not
1:36:14because we have this impending thing
1:36:15that's bad that's going to happen. It's
1:36:17because we're fed, we're we're rested,
1:36:20we're watered, we uh we have enough
1:36:23social connection and now we need to do
1:36:25something with this additional energy.
1:36:27And so you we have to grab a hold of our
1:36:29mind, grab a hold of our bodies and take
1:36:31it someplace regimented. And it's hard.
1:36:34You know, yesterday I had a conversation
1:36:35with someone on the podcast. We were
1:36:37talking about flow states. Such a
1:36:38compelling thing. Go into flow. And he
1:36:40said, "No, no, no. In the world of of
1:36:42high performance, we now talk about
1:36:44clutch states." I'd never heard of this.
1:36:46I said, "What's clutch state? I'm a
1:36:48neuroscientist. I've heard of flow
1:36:49states."
1:36:50>> Yeah. to clutch states are the states of
1:36:54forcing oneself to do something at that
1:36:56kind of edge of friction and effort that
1:36:59most athletes, investors,
1:37:02high performers, business people live in
1:37:0490% of their waking hours. And I was
1:37:06like, finally, someone defi described my
1:37:09life right now. Right now in this, I'm
1:37:11enjoying this, but I, you know, I can
1:37:13tell a little bit the way that your mind
1:37:15works is like you're also trying to
1:37:17enforce certain things. is like we're
1:37:18not just like having a meandering
1:37:20conversation, right? This is not
1:37:22philosophy, okay? The the clutch state
1:37:26is where you have to take our energy and
1:37:27our anxiety and funnel ourselves into
1:37:30it. Um, and I think that it's such a
1:37:33beautiful concept because flow is like,
1:37:36okay, that comes every once in a while
1:37:38in years 7, 8, 9, and beyond when you
1:37:40already achieved mastery because you can
1:37:42be unskilled, skilled, mastery, and
1:37:44virtuosity. The virtuosity, everyone
1:37:46wants that. Everyone wants that, but
1:37:48it's built on years upon years of basics
1:37:51of clutch state, clutch state, clutch
1:37:53state. That's the state to get yourself
1:37:55into
1:37:56>> and then turn your mind off and relax
1:37:58and just keep going. So I don't think
1:38:00our the I do think the purpose of humans
1:38:04well there many but one of our major
1:38:07purposes is to take this extra mental
1:38:09real estate that we have the extra
1:38:11neural real estate which is our
1:38:13prefrontal cortex which can think and
1:38:15plan and come up with ideas and error
1:38:18correct and try things and listen to
1:38:20podcasts and books and then go and
1:38:21implement and um think about what we
1:38:25regret. take the lesson, move forward,
1:38:28try and cut with our losses, all of
1:38:30that. That's what brought us out of mud
1:38:32huts and you know, and where we were the
1:38:35prey and now we're the curators of the
1:38:38earth and we're building rocket ships to
1:38:40take us potentially to other planets and
1:38:42we've got AI and we've got podcasts and
1:38:45like I I think we're here for a lot more
1:38:47than than just to get by. And if
1:38:51[snorts] people just want to get by.
1:38:52Okay. Well, in certain societies, they
1:38:54can do that and you work, you handle
1:38:56your stuff, great. Like that's fine. But
1:38:58h humanity is all our species has always
1:39:02advanced on largely on the shoulders of
1:39:05I mean everyone's important. Clearly,
1:39:07everyone's of value, but has the big
1:39:09advancements have always come through
1:39:12people who are like, I've got a lot of
1:39:13internal agitation and I'm going to
1:39:15funnel it into something. And so now we
1:39:17have this concept of clutch states.
1:39:19Beautiful concept.
1:39:20>> True.
1:39:21>> Not relaxed. I love it.
1:39:22>> Yeah, I love it, too. When I heard it, I
1:39:24was like, "Thank you. You've given me a
1:39:25new phrase." So, you and I and this guy,
1:39:27his name is Tommy Wood. He's a MD PhD up
1:39:29at University of Washington. He studies
1:39:30high performance and neuroplasticity.
1:39:32Uh, we're probably the the among the
1:39:34like 10 people on the planet who've
1:39:36heard this term. So, now many more
1:39:38people will hear about it thanks to
1:39:40[laughter] thanks to your podcast. So,
1:39:42um, and and you know, no one owns that
1:39:44term. Send it far and wide like this. I
1:39:46don't own it. He doesn't own it. Send it
1:39:48far and wide. This is get yourself into
1:39:50a clutch state, folks, and and build
1:39:53something.
1:39:53>> And this one's so much better than flow
1:39:55state.
1:39:56>> Yeah. The the flow state thing is the
1:39:57expression of something that's all that
1:39:59you can already do. Has nothing to do
1:40:00with learning.
1:40:02>> Has nothing to do with learning.
1:40:04>> Learning is when you're making errors.
1:40:05You know, a fundamental principle of
1:40:07neuroplasticity
1:40:09>> is that if your nervous system can do
1:40:11something, there's no plasticity.
1:40:12There's no rewiring. It's the gap
1:40:14between your desired performance and
1:40:16your current performance that creates
1:40:18adrenaline. It creates in your body
1:40:20norepinephrine in your brain and some
1:40:22other neurochemicals that creates a a an
1:40:25internal chemical uh millu that allows
1:40:29neural circuits to rewire. But the
1:40:30errors are what drive that. Your nervous
1:40:33system goes, "Oh, I can't do it. I can't
1:40:34do it. I can't do it." You go to sleep.
1:40:36Few days later, you're doing it a bit
1:40:37more and then pretty soon you've got it.
1:40:40And by the way, the best way to
1:40:41reinforce anything that you've learned
1:40:43is to self- test. We know this from
1:40:45neuroscience and psychology experiments.
1:40:48Reading once you listen to a podcast,
1:40:50once you listen to a book, the best
1:40:51thing that you can do is to take a walk
1:40:53or just a few moments and just think,
1:40:55what did I learn? Okay, clutch. Do I
1:40:57know what that is? Just a few things
1:40:59here and there. And where you go, I
1:41:00don't remember. Great. Go look it up.
1:41:03You'll never forget it. The the learning
1:41:05process is about recognizing what you do
1:41:07and don't know. that it's those errors
1:41:10that are so key.
1:41:11>> True.
1:41:12>> Yeah. So, um, so I've never talked about
1:41:15those before because I just learned
1:41:16about them yesterday and I love the
1:41:17concept.
1:41:18>> Nice. I love it that we are learning
1:41:20something new now.
1:41:21>> Yeah, [laughter] definitely. Yeah,
1:41:22clutch states are new. I think that the
1:41:24and and this whole framework of like 0
1:41:27to 3 years, you know, four to six years,
1:41:29the seven and beyond. Um, because I
1:41:31don't think it's really been broken
1:41:32down. I think a lot of people like, "Oh,
1:41:34you get up and you run like David
1:41:35Gogggins and then you you do it at 4:30
1:41:37in the morning like Choco and then you
1:41:39you do, you know, 50,000 protocols, you
1:41:42know." No, no, no, no, no, no. That's
1:41:44not that's not how it works. You know,
1:41:46>> I love it. Like, you know, you because
1:41:48I've only heard few things from you and
1:41:50you always seemed like you're this
1:41:5250,000 protocol kind of guy or
1:41:54>> Well, my day is pretty regimented. I
1:41:56take my supplements. I get my sunlight.
1:41:57I do my hydration. I do my workouts. I
1:41:59do my yoga nidra. I dim the lights. I I
1:42:02do my journaling. I did my 10 breath
1:42:04meditation. I get my I I do I do them. I
1:42:07do the the big ones every single day,
1:42:10every single night, unless I can't in
1:42:13which case I do as many as I can. But I
1:42:16also have you I think sometimes people
1:42:18forget that I like them have large
1:42:20periods of my day where I have to be in
1:42:22laser focus to podcast. I have to prep
1:42:24prepare podcasts for guests and solo
1:42:27podcasts. You know, some of the solo
1:42:29podcasts are 100 hours or more of
1:42:30preparation. It's like doing like a
1:42:32master's thesis and that's it's tough
1:42:35and and I you know and I have to tend to
1:42:37the rest of my life too. So it's um
1:42:41>> I do the stuff I do all the stuff but
1:42:44I'm not a robot
1:42:46>> and none of this is a is a closed loop.
1:42:48I don't do the wellness stuff to just
1:42:51keep doing the wellness stuff. It's
1:42:53always been a way to support the rest of
1:42:55my life. I'm fortunate that I like
1:42:56exercise. I like yoga nudra. I like
1:42:58morning sunlight. But I do all those
1:43:00things to raise up the level that I can
1:43:03do all the other things
1:43:04>> nice
1:43:05>> and I integrate them. Um, you know, and
1:43:07I think this notion of health
1:43:08influencers has become a little bit of a
1:43:11a thing where that's all people do.
1:43:14Um, but that's not realistic for most
1:43:17people.
1:43:17>> Yeah.
1:43:17>> Yeah. Coming back to our previous
1:43:20discussion, I had this question. Can you
1:43:23build courage?
1:43:24>> Can you build courage? Absolutely.
1:43:27>> Absolutely. Yeah. Incremental. You get
1:43:29people to their to their edge of
1:43:30agitation and you let them just live
1:43:32their life.
1:43:32>> Like someone who's not courageous, can
1:43:34they do something today or maybe start
1:43:37doing something from today which will
1:43:39help them become courageous
1:43:41>> if they want to if they want to become
1:43:43courageous. I mean as cliche as it
1:43:45sounds the cold water thing is it builds
1:43:47mental resilience and the reason is that
1:43:49it is a very reliable and provided you
1:43:51don't make it too cold you just do cold
1:43:53shower it really does consistently
1:43:56reliably cause a fast release of
1:43:58adrenaline and all of anxiety and stress
1:44:02involves this like deployment of
1:44:03adrenaline in the body that makes us
1:44:05feel agitated our prefrontal cortex is
1:44:07lowered in activity for the first 20 or
1:44:0930 seconds it's harder to strategize we
1:44:12just want to go anywhere except where
1:44:13we're at. And the goal, the the
1:44:16resilience training is to learn to just
1:44:18ride out that first 20, 30 seconds. Then
1:44:21adrenaline starts to subside. But the
1:44:23way that I suggest people do deliberate
1:44:25cold exposure is different than most. I
1:44:27think people should pick a certain
1:44:29number of what I call walls. So maybe
1:44:31like five walls. And maybe the first
1:44:34wall to go over is just getting in the
1:44:36cold shower. Then it's you instead of
1:44:40counting or going for time, you sense
1:44:42when you really want to get out. That's
1:44:45another wall. You stay in just one more.
1:44:47Then you can kind of get comfortable.
1:44:49Then you wait until you really want to
1:44:50get out again. You go over that wall
1:44:52again. And what you'll notice is those
1:44:53are waves of adrenaline, which is much
1:44:56more realistic. It's much more like the
1:44:57real world where you're doing public
1:44:59speaking where you're not going for
1:45:00time. You're not trying to relax for 3
1:45:02minutes. You're trying to [snorts]
1:45:04deal with whatever comes your way. And
1:45:06so you can learn to be resilient to your
1:45:08own physiology.
1:45:10And again, provided it's not an ice ice
1:45:12cold bath and you don't want to become
1:45:14hypothermic. Don't stay in longer than 3
1:45:16minutes. Cold shower is fine. But you
1:45:18can build in a lot of resilience.
1:45:20Earlier we were talking about workouts,
1:45:22but you could do this with anything.
1:45:23Like the other day I was doing a workout
1:45:25in my gym and it was it was warm. It was
1:45:27really warm and I was about to walk over
1:45:29and turn on the AC and I'm like, "No,
1:45:31let's make it hotter. Turn on the heat.
1:45:34Dude, two more sets. Best sets I had in
1:45:36ages. Little resilience training. Like,
1:45:39just make I'm not a massochist. Let's
1:45:40just make it Let's not always go for
1:45:42comfort. Let's just make it a little
1:45:44hot, harder, not easier. And then I
1:45:46showered. I swear the rest of my day was
1:45:48so much better. You know, some days it's
1:45:51the opposite. I just like I I need air
1:45:53conditioning. You know, some days, you
1:45:55know, it depends. I mean, I know it can
1:45:56get very hot and humid in certain parts
1:45:58of India. So, you know, so I don't
1:46:00always do that. Um, but occasionally
1:46:04during the workout, I'll warm up. I'll
1:46:06listen to music. I'm working out or
1:46:08listening to and then I go, you know
1:46:09what? Silence. I just want to focus as
1:46:12much as humanly possible on every
1:46:13repetition. But after three, four sets
1:46:15of that, I want to go back to listening
1:46:16to some music. And then I know the tail
1:46:19end of a workout is typically when
1:46:20people get hurt, uh, front end and tail
1:46:22end because you're kind of distracted.
1:46:24So, I turned off the music and I'm just
1:46:26going to go for just really focus. It's
1:46:28like great. That was like a There's an
1:46:30art of doing a a great workout. And some
1:46:33days you just drink your energy drink
1:46:35and just go go all out. But it was good.
1:46:38It was a It was a The same way, you
1:46:40know, I was in a difficult conversation
1:46:42the other day and I thought, I'm going
1:46:44to just resist the urge to say anything.
1:46:47I'm just going to like be the guy that
1:46:49just nods.
1:46:51It was so hard.
1:46:52>> Yeah.
1:46:53>> So hard because I I have a lot of
1:46:54thoughts and opinions, especially about
1:46:56what was being said. And I just got to
1:46:58the end. I was like, "Okay." And then I
1:47:01said what I need to say and I'm so glad
1:47:03I did it. Right. But it was it was work.
1:47:06>> Yeah.
1:47:06>> It was work. And it wasn't because I was
1:47:08being personally attacked. I just
1:47:10fighting that impulse. So I think
1:47:12learning to fight our impulsivity.
1:47:15Listen, this is this stuff of great
1:47:17leadership that I don't, you know, I'm
1:47:19not super skilled at, but I'm trying to
1:47:21build up, right? Because when you're the
1:47:23main guy, this is one thing that comes
1:47:24with success. when you're the main guy,
1:47:26most things fall in around you.
1:47:28>> Yeah.
1:47:28>> You, you know, like you're dialed
1:47:30everything, you know, it's about you
1:47:31being dialed in, you know, and it can
1:47:33make um us, it can make people in
1:47:36positions of leadership um we can become
1:47:39impatient. We're used to things
1:47:41happening on a certain pace, you know,
1:47:42it can make us impatient. So, you know,
1:47:45next time something's slow, it's like,
1:47:47all right, I'm going to like this is a
1:47:49good practice, but it's hard to stay
1:47:51there. you know, we're not no one's
1:47:53striving for perfection. I think pick a
1:47:56short time scale and try and get
1:47:58something better out of it, you know,
1:48:00and I have to be very very clear about
1:48:02that. Have some mindless ways to reset.
1:48:05I have them. I like watching
1:48:06documentaries. [snorts] Um I love
1:48:09hanging out with uh my girlfriend and
1:48:11the dog and we just like we you know, we
1:48:14call it uh you know like we cave to
1:48:16love. Like there's these moments where
1:48:17we're just like no more work, no more
1:48:19dishes, no more doing anything. We're
1:48:21just going to like the we're just going
1:48:22to relax the three of we're just going
1:48:23to completely relax and after 10 15
1:48:26minutes we move back into our time like
1:48:27learning how to just completely
1:48:30and I cover it. I'm like I'm exhausted
1:48:33and then you get back in business. Let's
1:48:35go.
1:48:36>> And I that and it's a very that's one of
1:48:38the most powerful things I think um to
1:48:41just give yourself permission to just in
1:48:44a healthy way be a child every once in a
1:48:46while and just go and then back in it.
1:48:49let's go posture up and like let's get
1:48:51serious again, you know, because
1:48:53otherwise if you're grinding the gears
1:48:56all the time,
1:48:57>> that's just no fun. Yeah. Also, there's
1:48:59a once you and you you're there now,
1:49:02right? But people can anticipate this
1:49:04soon if they're they're not and they're
1:49:06staying in this trajectory.
1:49:08the real
1:49:10the real top layer and I know this from
1:49:13observing people in other fields, tech
1:49:15and medicine and the arts and um and
1:49:19then in podcasting too and finances that
1:49:23the top top layer is the ultra
1:49:26discipline superfocused
1:49:29but an element of playfulness cuz ne cuz
1:49:32they're just so secure. they can now
1:49:34just like have that fun and they're not
1:49:37try they just cuz they they won they won
1:49:40the game and so now they can just have
1:49:42fun and that all this incredible stuff
1:49:44comes out of that and so that's that's
1:49:46the thing that like you know the that we
1:49:50should all aspire to that's the peace
1:49:52that's the peace the joy that comes with
1:49:54it and but don't expect that in in the
1:49:57first couple years no way no chance um
1:50:00wins you're going after wins and you're
1:50:02building your confidence That's how you
1:50:04do it. But uh it that's there for for
1:50:07you.
1:50:07>> You know, you you mentioned a couple of
1:50:09games right now like what you do with
1:50:11the turn on the heat and do certain
1:50:13things in order to build resilience like
1:50:16let's make it more
1:50:17>> uh something that people can follow
1:50:20immediately. Give me
1:50:21>> give me like top three mental games that
1:50:23people can play
1:50:25>> to build resilience.
1:50:26>> All right. I woke up this morning. I did
1:50:28not want to get out of bed. I was super
1:50:30tired and did not get enough sleep. And
1:50:33I do before I get out of bed, I do this
1:50:35every morning. I do 10 breath
1:50:37meditation. If I can't concentrate, I
1:50:39tell myself, if I can't concentrate for
1:50:4110 breaths, how in the world am I going
1:50:43to go about my day? [snorts] Sometimes I
1:50:45have to get to number six. You drift.
1:50:47You have to set an alarm because you can
1:50:49easily go back to sleep, especially with
1:50:50long exhales. 10 breath meditation
1:50:52before you let yourself get out of bed
1:50:53in the morning, especially on the
1:50:55mornings where you really have to get up
1:50:56and use the bathroom.
1:50:57>> Now, even harder. Okay,
1:51:00in your workouts, not in your warm-ups,
1:51:03but in your work sets, your goal is to
1:51:06make those as hard as possible, not as
1:51:08easy as possible. So,
1:51:12as focused as you can possibly be, when
1:51:14it really is tough, you're going to do
1:51:17everything you can to make it even
1:51:18harder. You're going to try and contract
1:51:19the muscle even harder using using that
1:51:22weight. That's another one. with respect
1:51:25to any challenging interaction whether
1:51:29it's with the internet or with someone
1:51:31else or it's like too many texts
1:51:34incoming you're feeling overwhelmed the
1:51:36whole business of it is to just it's
1:51:39this detach thing that is about taking
1:51:42your gaze and getting it extended into
1:51:45the entire room or space that you're in
1:51:47because we get very narrow focus there's
1:51:49a real neuroscience to this we get this
1:51:50tunnel vision and something feels
1:51:52overwhelming because it's almost like
1:51:53drinking from a fire hose Then you kind
1:51:54of like dial it out and you go and
1:51:57that's where you get the your autonomic
1:51:59nervous system adjusts and you're like I
1:52:01can do this and now you just start
1:52:02picking things off one by one. This is
1:52:04actually a tool that um Jaco Willink and
1:52:06I talked about him and from his military
1:52:08career that we arrived at independently
1:52:10but I'll occasionally do it while
1:52:12podcasting where I feel like we're
1:52:13really in the tunnel. We're there and I
1:52:15just to sort of like dial out and I just
1:52:17in my mind I think let's invite in some
1:52:19novelty here. I don't know what it is,
1:52:21but just kind of like let's make sure
1:52:22that we're not too far down some some
1:52:24road, right? So, that's a good one. But
1:52:26if you're feeling overwhelmed, this is
1:52:28very good. You just simply they you
1:52:30simply it's you wouldn't even detect it.
1:52:33You just start viewing the the ceiling
1:52:34and the floor and the things that you
1:52:36see ourselves in this context kind of
1:52:38takes you out of it. Gives you it
1:52:40releases some of the stress in your mind
1:52:42that allows you to come up with novel
1:52:43ways. New abilities come from that. I
1:52:46have a friend, he's a um a coach for
1:52:48professional basketball team. He's not
1:52:50the head coach, but he's a performance
1:52:51coach. And oftentimes when guys are
1:52:53moving down court, they're so focused
1:52:56that they don't see opportunities and
1:52:58they don't see defenders that can, you
1:53:00know, thwart their efforts. And so what
1:53:02they need to do is dilate their gaze and
1:53:04they start seeing things in new ways and
1:53:07you can see new opportunities. So it's
1:53:08the same thing the brain afford you
1:53:10afford resource more brain resources
1:53:13when you do that. Um, and then the the
1:53:16last one is I think there's a very
1:53:19useful way to use memory that normally
1:53:21people their memory of the past is about
1:53:24things that didn't work out. I think
1:53:26everyone should have some thing that
1:53:29worked out and you return to that. You
1:53:32survived the hard thing. You're still
1:53:34here. You're still breathing. Sometimes
1:53:36it's that basic or you know your case or
1:53:39someone else like you built that. You
1:53:41built that which simply means you can
1:53:43build another thing and build you can
1:53:45build on this. You can like you have
1:53:46that in you. It was you that did that
1:53:48and to really acknowledge your own
1:53:50agency in that you didn't do it alone
1:53:52but that you did that. You took it from
1:53:53nothing. Had you not decided and done
1:53:56the things had you not decided to and
1:53:58then done the things it would not exist.
1:54:00You need to internalize that because you
1:54:02really recognize your own capacity and
1:54:03you can bring that forward. But I admit
1:54:06that uh throughout the day there are
1:54:08many opportunities um that I try to take
1:54:12of like doing the slightly harder thing.
1:54:14This is something that Andy Stump also
1:54:15talks about the slightly harder thing.
1:54:17Like you see that little piece of thing
1:54:19on the ground. Do you pick it up or do
1:54:20you go like you do it? You do it because
1:54:23it's hard. I confess I'm not that good
1:54:25at that. I hate folding and putting away
1:54:27my clothes. I absolutely hate it. I was
1:54:30I would pay any amount of money to have
1:54:31somebody else do it, but occasionally I
1:54:33just like throw and I I don't know what
1:54:35it is. It's my it's like my vice. Sounds
1:54:37so trivial, right? Um so I let myself
1:54:40sometimes leave some clothes out. Like
1:54:42I'm human. I'm I'm like in the
1:54:44playfulness of that and and how
1:54:46hilarious it is that I for all the other
1:54:49things that I'm able to do that are hard
1:54:50can't seem to just fold a shirt properly
1:54:52and put it away.
1:54:56Okay. You know, like Okay. Like would it
1:55:00be better if I did it? Yeah. But and and
1:55:02also like so I that that again is that
1:55:05thing of pick your pick your masochism
1:55:08but have but but be thoughtful about it.
1:55:11I do think that if someone were to watch
1:55:14my podcast or to watch your podcast and
1:55:16watch Gogggins and all these people it
1:55:18could feel overwhelming like oh my
1:55:20goodness is my life supposed to be all
1:55:21right angles and no no we're human. Yeah
1:55:24I you know I like to think that we're
1:55:26both human. I I know I am. So
1:55:28>> I am way more human.
1:55:30>> Yeah. Well, but you also are are 29
1:55:33years old. I'm 50 years old. So you have
1:55:36more plasticity available.
1:55:38And I think the the mental trick that I
1:55:42think is the most important one is you
1:55:44have to see your life as as an
1:55:46adventure. You get to write your own
1:55:47story.
1:55:48>> True. I like I I really I I believe that
1:55:52um somebody's listening to this and that
1:55:55for them it's not about you or me. It's
1:55:59like it's about them and they're out
1:56:01there and they're thinking like could I
1:56:03do it? I don't know if I could do it. I
1:56:04will tell you right now I was that guy.
1:56:07I was in my lab listening to Tim Ferrris
1:56:10podcast and other podcasts. I'm thinking
1:56:12like reading books, hearing about people
1:56:14long before there were podcasts and like
1:56:15I was like I wanted to be like these
1:56:17people who built things and strived and
1:56:19did creative things and did things that
1:56:21were outside the box. And I actually had
1:56:23this dorky little list of names is so
1:56:25silly of some artists, some musicians,
1:56:28people that some I've met but many
1:56:29[clears throat] of whom I'll never meet
1:56:30cuz they've passed some scientists and
1:56:32some other people that I wanted to be
1:56:34like in certain ways. So dorky, right?
1:56:37But I still have that list. And I was
1:56:39like, and now I've actually met a few of
1:56:40the people and some of them were really
1:56:42cool. No disappointments there. And I'm
1:56:45like, "Oh, that's wild." Like it I for
1:56:49lack of a better word, I manifested
1:56:50that. But I didn't manifest it by just
1:56:52sitting in a chair and thinking about
1:56:53it. I went for it. [snorts] But I was
1:56:55the person going like, I don't know. I'm
1:56:57like a professor in a lab, but I have
1:56:59these other interests and, you know, but
1:57:01I can't seem to stop seeking out this
1:57:03knowledge and sharing it with people.
1:57:05and I had no concept of having a
1:57:08podcast. So if you're that person out
1:57:10there, like go for it because I was that
1:57:13person and you were that person.
1:57:15>> Absolutely that person.
1:57:16>> And don't let the amount of information
1:57:17out there overwhelm you. Just pick your
1:57:19stuff and go and don't try and do it
1:57:21all. just pick and you I guarantee I
1:57:24[snorts] look forward to the day that
1:57:27someone or or several people are sitting
1:57:30down saying we heard this conversation
1:57:32>> and we're like okay I can be part I can
1:57:36be colleagues with these guys or I can
1:57:38pass them who knows maybe they're going
1:57:39to come try and take what we've got but
1:57:40you have to work pretty hard if you're
1:57:42going to but I know you can do it or try
1:57:44um and [snorts] they're going to they're
1:57:47going to have their thing hopefully
1:57:48something different hopefully because I
1:57:50do think that the best work is is
1:57:52non-competitive. This is actually
1:57:54important point. My friend Rick Rubin
1:57:56points this out about the creative arts.
1:57:58I was watching this documentary recently
1:57:59about rock climbing and um I'm not a
1:58:02rock climber, but competition can
1:58:06motivate you from time to time, but it's
1:58:08not going to bring about your most
1:58:09creative work. You want a a an
1:58:13individual unique unique vision of
1:58:17something. And it can look a lot like a
1:58:19lot of other things. It might even look
1:58:20the same to other people, but that's
1:58:22your vision. And if you start comparing
1:58:24it to other people, sure you can borrow
1:58:25and trade things that you think are
1:58:26cool. Discard things you don't think are
1:58:29cool, but like build your your life
1:58:32story. I'm a neuroscientist turned
1:58:34podcaster, still neuroscience professor,
1:58:36whatever, whatever. You have your story.
1:58:39Everyone has a unique story, and that's
1:58:41that's what the world wants. They don't
1:58:43want another one of you or another one
1:58:44of me or another, you know, Steven
1:58:47Bartlett or Tim Ferris or Rogan or Lex
1:58:49Freeman. Like that there, those guys are
1:58:51those guys and we're us. And build out
1:58:53the new thing. It can look a lot like it
1:58:55can still be a podcast or whatever, but
1:58:58build your own beautiful painting of
1:59:01your of your vision. That's that would
1:59:03make me happier than anything if someday
1:59:05somebody wrote and was like, I heard
1:59:06that. I went for it. And every time
1:59:10someone says, "Well, yeah, but it's
1:59:12hard, but there's a lot of podcasts like
1:59:14like that should be your answer or and
1:59:18just keep going." I you know, you you're
1:59:20like this. You get excited. You get
1:59:22excited by looking at other people. You
1:59:24also get excited by challenges as much
1:59:26as I can hear,
1:59:27>> right? There are so many people,
1:59:31>> they're addicted to comfort. And then
1:59:34there are people like you who are
1:59:35addicted to challenge. why some people
1:59:38are addicted to comfort and why some
1:59:40people are addicted to challenge.
1:59:41>> Yeah, you know
1:59:44two answers. One is very kind of rigid
1:59:47and I don't know which one is true. Um
1:59:49one is maybe people have just different
1:59:51mental and physical pain thresholds.
1:59:54>> Um I I know when I stub my toe it hurts
1:59:57and then it stops hurting. [laughter] So
2:00:00um I don't seek out pain, physical pain.
2:00:04Um
2:00:05but
2:00:08I don't know. So m maybe you know maybe
2:00:10our human species is divided into
2:00:13builders and sustainers. I don't want to
2:00:15say like people who are just I don't
2:00:16like the builder taker thing. There's
2:00:18some takers in the world but most people
2:00:19I think are trying to be good people.
2:00:21most people um
2:00:24but maybe people have not ever
2:00:26conceptualized themselves in in the kind
2:00:29of life adventure builder
2:00:32frame framework. Um I think a big test
2:00:36of it is whether or not when they see
2:00:38some when somebody sees somebody else
2:00:39striving and doing well, does it make
2:00:41you feel good or does it make you feel
2:00:43overwhelmed? When I see somebody
2:00:44striving and doing well, I'm like,
2:00:46"Yeah, like I can take some of I don't
2:00:48want to take from them. I can feed off
2:00:50that energy. It feeds me. That's the
2:00:52right language. It feeds me. They're
2:00:53going. I'm getting I'm like, "Yes." I
2:00:56mean, it's so cool. Like, this thing I
2:00:58observed this morning and this
2:00:59conversation fundamentally change the
2:01:02way that I think about things going
2:01:03forward. Um, all of which is generative.
2:01:07What can I learn from you? And I've
2:01:08already learned from you. So, I'm
2:01:09grateful. Really, I'm not just saying
2:01:11that as a formality or to, you know, to
2:01:13be kind. It was It's just true. you it's
2:01:15clear especially for someone at 29 like
2:01:18you have a very um you have a big
2:01:20picture perspective that certainly I
2:01:23didn't have at 29 [laughter]
2:01:26and um and that uh and great leadership
2:01:29qualities to you know yeah really I mean
2:01:32you're the host but you have like sort
2:01:33of a there's a calm in you and a and a
2:01:36kindness but also a drive clearly that
2:01:40um that fosters uh
2:01:43real feelings of safety I can say that
2:01:45as your guest cuz I've been on a number
2:01:47of podcasts where you kind of feel like
2:01:49some someone's trying to pull something.
2:01:50I don't get any of that. So, appreciate
2:01:53that. Something I I work to cultivate on
2:01:55my own podcast and I don't know cuz I've
2:01:57only been the host, not the guest, but
2:01:58that I I I'm going to think about some
2:02:01of this more. Um certainly. And then my
2:02:04friend seeing him do this, you know,
2:02:07incredible act of medicine and science
2:02:10and um just like,
2:02:15you know, he's at the edge. He's at the
2:02:17frontier of science discovering new
2:02:21brain areas using the most modern
2:02:22technologies, AI. He's also a
2:02:24bioengineer because he's like a phenom.
2:02:26And I see that and I go, "Wow, like I'm
2:02:30inspired to do better." Um, and and
2:02:34maybe some people are like, and this is
2:02:36perfectly fine, will hear or see things
2:02:38like that and and and go, "Cool." Like,
2:02:41I just love watching a great soccer game
2:02:45as a spectator
2:02:47>> and I'm not inspired to go do anything
2:02:48with it. I just want to see my team win.
2:02:50And that's cool, too. That's not me, but
2:02:53that's cool. And uh, but I see Mezzi and
2:02:56I think like, [snorts] what's he doing?
2:02:58Like, how does he like what's he doing?
2:03:00And uh and how can I
2:03:04I don't think there's anything that
2:03:06special about any one person in history
2:03:09or currently. I just think some people
2:03:11are just have
2:03:13some have gifts. Sure. And
2:03:15opportunities, but I think they just
2:03:17channel their efforts and
2:03:19>> interesting.
2:03:19>> Yeah. I I I think we I really think we
2:03:22are, you know, it sounds cliche, but I
2:03:24think that we we all have the
2:03:26opportunity to build beautiful things in
2:03:28our lives at whatever scale and um and
2:03:31that's, you know, humans at their best.
2:03:34>> But, you know, this is this this has a
2:03:37lot to do with your identity, how you
2:03:39see yourself. And because you see you
2:03:42think this about yourself, you look at
2:03:44other people as well and you look at
2:03:46other human beings and you think they
2:03:47can do beautiful things as well, right?
2:03:49But someone out there is listening to
2:03:52you and is feeling like a loser right
2:03:54now.
2:03:55>> How can that person change his or her
2:03:58identity to start feeling like a winner
2:04:02or start feeling like they can do some
2:04:04of the beautiful things which you just
2:04:05described?
2:04:06>> Yeah. Well, it's it's a verb action. So,
2:04:09and I want to be clear, I've had
2:04:10hardship. I mean, less than some, more
2:04:12than others, but you know, the the
2:04:14collapse of my family early on in life
2:04:16was very disruptive to me. and um in
2:04:20ways that
2:04:22I mean I've moved through, but it was
2:04:23it's just very like I hear about your
2:04:25family and I'll I'll be very honest and
2:04:27there's a bit of like a I I'm super
2:04:29happy for you. I I I'm delighted. Um but
2:04:33there's a little bit of like I I get a
2:04:35little bit of like man like
2:04:39that would have been awesome. Some small
2:04:41fraction of that now, but I had some of
2:04:43that in certain forms for a certain
2:04:44amount of time and then you just go and
2:04:46I was born into a healthy body. Let's
2:04:48go. We got we got work to do. Huberman,
2:04:50you know, so you can't you can't live
2:04:51there, right? But so I've had some
2:04:53hardships certainly lost for for someone
2:04:55who was not in the military or didn't
2:04:57grow up in the inner city. I've lost a
2:04:58all three of my scientific colleagues
2:05:00died young. My my mentors, suicide,
2:05:03cancer, cancer. I was very close with
2:05:05all of them. In particular, the second
2:05:06one had a lot of friends die. And you
2:05:09learn to just kind of keep going and
2:05:11take those at losses and keep cycling
2:05:13forward. In fact, there's a protocol for
2:05:15grief, you know, in my book to deal with
2:05:17grief because most people think it's
2:05:18just anger, acceptance, and then what is
2:05:21it like? There's anger, acceptance,
2:05:23denial, and then eventually you find
2:05:25peace or that's not how grief works at
2:05:27all. Grief is about
2:05:29the nervous system thinking there's an
2:05:32action to take around somebody and not
2:05:34being able to complete the call or see
2:05:36them. It's this like impulse to oh, like
2:05:39your nervous system thinks they're still
2:05:40there and they're not. And there's so
2:05:41it's an unfulfilled expectation. It's
2:05:44like reaching for food when you're very
2:05:46hungry and it's coming towards your
2:05:47mouth and it disappears. That's what
2:05:49grief is like. And so you have to go
2:05:51through certain science supported things
2:05:54in order to allow that that circuit to
2:05:57shift into a different framework where
2:06:00it's really about the past but your
2:06:01nervous system is still trying to do
2:06:03this. So you know I still deal with some
2:06:04of these things but the person who
2:06:08is like hears this and is like oh I feel
2:06:10like a loser. Well, you're comparing to
2:06:13the end state of having quote unquote
2:06:15won. I'm talking from my position now,
2:06:17but there were years where I was had
2:06:19very little money. You know, as an
2:06:21academic, I living in the Bay Area,
2:06:23okay, I wasn't in absolute poverty, but
2:06:25it was really a struggle. It was really
2:06:27a struggle at times. Um, all sorts of
2:06:30challenges of loss and things of that
2:06:32sort. So, there were some dark days in
2:06:34there for sure. I I think it boils down
2:06:36to
2:06:38something that I was told and I never
2:06:42articulated it myself, but this is what
2:06:44was going through my head for year after
2:06:46year after year for decades, which is
2:06:50losers
2:06:52take things that happened to them and
2:06:54indeed sometimes that is are things that
2:06:56happened to them that they could not
2:06:58control
2:07:01or missteps or errors or losses. is and
2:07:05they ruminate on it and they turn those
2:07:08thoughts and those emotions into things
2:07:11that harm themselves
2:07:14or others. Winners take the things that
2:07:18happen to them, good or bad, and
2:07:22they transmute that sometimes through
2:07:24very hard work that involves talking to
2:07:27oneself, reminding oneself, journaling
2:07:30things out, forcing oneself to make
2:07:32better decisions. and they take those
2:07:34hard things and they turn them into
2:07:37actions that are supportive and indeed
2:07:41generative for them and for others in
2:07:44the world. Period. End of story. Now
2:07:47those are just words. So the question is
2:07:50how? Well, the first thing is to
2:07:52acknowledge that both losers and winners
2:07:55have hard thoughts and emotions and
2:07:57feelings of despair. Okay. [gasps]
2:08:02The shift is not one of, oh, I'm just
2:08:06going to be a winner. I'm going to take
2:08:07all the hard stuff and just think good
2:08:09thoughts and do good things. No, you
2:08:12literally have to force that on yourself
2:08:15over and over and over. Sometimes
2:08:16multiple times per hour or every 5
2:08:20minutes. But you cannot let yourself
2:08:23attack, selfattack or attack others. You
2:08:25cannot do it. Whatever you So sometimes
2:08:28the best thing to do is nothing. You
2:08:30can't get into a generative state.
2:08:32You're focusing on something really
2:08:33hard. Okay? Just feel the feelings, but
2:08:36don't do anything. Don't get up out of
2:08:38your chair. But then eventually, you get
2:08:40up out of your chair and you do
2:08:42something.
2:08:43What you don't do is self harm or harm
2:08:46others. That could be with words. It
2:08:48could be physically. It could be by not
2:08:50going to work, not going to school,
2:08:53just, you know, smoking weed and playing
2:08:55video games, indulging in porn, saying,
2:08:58you know, horrible things to yourself,
2:09:00giving up on the world. That's the
2:09:03default for many people. So, you have to
2:09:05ratchet yourself over towards that other
2:09:07side. But once you do that, you realize,
2:09:09oh, all of the control is in my mind,
2:09:11and there's nothing outside of me that's
2:09:13actually going to teach me that process.
2:09:15I mean this is the one danger of
2:09:16anything inspirational is that it comes
2:09:18from the outside and it can be very
2:09:20useful. It can be like a rung on a
2:09:21ladder that we can pull ourselves
2:09:22forward on. But ultimately you pulled
2:09:25that yourself forward and that's the
2:09:28thing to focus on. It was your action
2:09:29that brought you forward. So then you
2:09:32learn how to do it when the rung isn't
2:09:33there. You set a mental rung. Okay, I'm
2:09:36going to do nothing for 5 minutes
2:09:37because everything I want to do is just
2:09:39destructive.
2:09:40I made it 5 minutes. I'm in the driver's
2:09:44seat at least a little bit and you just
2:09:46go. Now, this is especially hard to do
2:09:48between the hours of 1 and 5:00 a.m.
2:09:51when you're underslept. Very hard to do
2:09:53when you had alcohol in your system.
2:09:55Very hard to do when you um are going
2:09:58through a breakup or a loss and when you
2:10:00have multiple stressors. So, that's
2:10:01where the tools of
2:10:04learning to turn your mind off. Look in
2:10:06it costs nothing but time. That's where
2:10:08you try it the first time, you can't do
2:10:10it, try it again, keep doing it, you get
2:10:12better. It's a skill like lifting
2:10:14weights or running or writing or playing
2:10:15an instrument.
2:10:17That divergence of,
2:10:20you know, loser mentality, winner
2:10:23mentality. It's not calling people
2:10:25loser. It's a think verbs. What what am
2:10:27I doing that's promoting a this like
2:10:29loser mentality? What am I doing that's
2:10:31promoting winner mentality? And you got
2:10:33to dig yourself out of that hole and no
2:10:34one can do it for you. And help will
2:10:36come when you're headed in the right
2:10:38direction. And people say, "Well, when I
2:10:40did that, no one helped me." All right,
2:10:42maybe you need to go a little bit
2:10:43further. I, you know, I I I do empathize
2:10:47and and sympathize with people that feel
2:10:49like there's they're on their own and
2:10:51there's no one there to help them. But
2:10:54in that case, there's only one there's
2:10:56only one way out and that's out, you
2:10:58know. And um the M and just acknowledge
2:11:00that the mind is crazy. It goes crazy
2:11:02places and it and it wants to, you know,
2:11:05drag us down sometimes and you just
2:11:07don't don't throw more dirt on top of
2:11:10yourself by by like giving into that.
2:11:13Like I think we're talking about being a
2:11:15dreamer, being inspired, but like be a
2:11:17fighter, too. Like learn to be a
2:11:18fighter. Like learn to learn to fight
2:11:20yourself. That when they say like the
2:11:21the the hardest fight is in in your own
2:11:24mind. Absolutely. So start with the
2:11:26basic things. Learn to meditate for 10
2:11:28breaths. Fight the agitation. Learn to
2:11:30stay in a cold shower for three minutes.
2:11:33Learn to turn off your thoughts with
2:11:35yoga nidra. That's a lot harder than the
2:11:37other two things.
2:11:39>> True.
2:11:40>> So, this can all be done. I know with
2:11:44with certainty it can all be done
2:11:45because I did it. And people say, "Well,
2:11:47you had certain things available to
2:11:49you." Listen, I didn't they didn't hand
2:11:50me a PhD. I had to work for it. They
2:11:52didn't hand me a podcast. I had to work
2:11:54for it. And um yeah, like my life's been
2:11:57easier, way easier than it has been for
2:11:59others and way harder than it has been
2:12:01for others. It's all what you make of
2:12:02it. It's all what you make of it.
2:12:04>> True. You know, do you think at this
2:12:06time when somebody's feeling like this
2:12:09absolute they are low, there's no
2:12:11connection, there no people, there's no
2:12:13one to hold their hand and like, you
2:12:15know, hold their hand and get them out
2:12:16of the right? Do you think what we
2:12:19were talking about earlier that you
2:12:21should strip away everything? Do you
2:12:23think it's the right time to do it?
2:12:24Should people strip away everything when
2:12:26they are
2:12:27>> strip away everything meaning
2:12:28>> like you would
2:12:29>> just give up control you you were saying
2:12:31in the beginning that you know sometimes
2:12:33it's good to just strip away everything
2:12:35just have oxygen just a place to sleep
2:12:38and you were saying something and I we
2:12:40started to talk
2:12:40>> yeah break it down to to the the
2:12:42absolute basics. You're here. You're
2:12:44breathing. Awesome. You're doing better
2:12:46than a lot of people. Um it's not going
2:12:49to feel that good though. that that
2:12:51alone isn't going to be like, "Oh,
2:12:52great. I'm breathing." Okay. Some people
2:12:54will even think sadly that they wish
2:12:55they weren't. Okay. [snorts] Well,
2:12:57you're here. So, I would advise, and I
2:13:01realize this might sound a little bit
2:13:03loaded, but I would advise if you are
2:13:06really at the bottom of your pit,
2:13:08obviously that you need to seek help,
2:13:11but
2:13:13ask whatever you believe in. Okay? I
2:13:16believe in God. But whatever you believe
2:13:18in,
2:13:19just acknowledge out loud alone or in
2:13:23your head if you don't want anyone to
2:13:25hear you.
2:13:27I'm at my end. I can't do this on my own
2:13:31anymore. Just help me get through the
2:13:35next hour.
2:13:38Just go another hour. Just help me do
2:13:40that. Just help me. What? Ask if you
2:13:42want to ask God, do it. if you want to
2:13:43ask the universe, whatever it is, you
2:13:45know,
2:13:47and just stop trying to control every
2:13:50aspect in your mind. Now, I just got
2:13:51through saying that you have to like
2:13:52pull yourself back over to the right
2:13:54response,
2:13:56but if you truly can't do that, then
2:13:59it's time to
2:14:01give it over and just acknowledge, you
2:14:05know, have a good laugh out loud. It's
2:14:08hard to be human sometimes.
2:14:09>> It's beautiful. It's great, but it can
2:14:11be really hard to be human.
2:14:13>> Yeah,
2:14:13>> it can be really tough. We're a weird
2:14:15species. We got this amazing prefrontal
2:14:17cortex and we can do amazing things with
2:14:21it. But sometimes it loops back on us
2:14:23and it we just like we're it
2:14:25flagagillates us and we can't and we're
2:14:26like ah I can't break out of this.
2:14:29That's when it's time to say okay I
2:14:32can't. So, I'm going to give this
2:14:34process just like help me go another
2:14:36hour
2:14:38and I I guarantee you'll get there. And
2:14:41I have my thoughts about why that might
2:14:43work. None of them fall within the realm
2:14:44of science. So, it's not really worth me
2:14:46going into because it's not my
2:14:47expertise, but I've never seen this
2:14:48fail. But once you're back on slightly
2:14:51solid ground, now you got to get to work
2:14:53because the universe only, whatever,
2:14:55God, the universe, whatever you believe
2:14:56in, only rewards
2:15:00effort or the effort to engage in
2:15:03effort. You don't, we've been gifted
2:15:06life. We can relax. We can enjoy, but we
2:15:08don't get to uh we don't get to waste
2:15:12it.
2:15:13>> And we really we we're here. I mean,
2:15:15maybe that's what the acknowledging that
2:15:16we're alive and breathing piece is
2:15:18about. like like don't take it for
2:15:22granted. Like I I do think that we're
2:15:24rewarded for any amount of effort that
2:15:26we we put in. Any amount maybe not in
2:15:29getting the thing we thought we were
2:15:30going to get, but in the recognition
2:15:32that we can we can pursue things. So I I
2:15:36believe in this very strongly because
2:15:37I've been at the bottom of that pit and
2:15:39wondering what in the world. But the
2:15:40good news is if you hit the bottom of
2:15:42that pit and you get out a few times,
2:15:44the next time you hit it, you go, "I'll
2:15:46get out the next time."
2:15:47>> Yeah. And then you go, "Well, this feels
2:15:48a little longer than the last time or a
2:15:50lot longer." You will get out. You do.
2:15:53People have suffered incredible
2:15:56challenges.
2:15:57>> And they got out and created amazing
2:15:59things. And there's this weird law of
2:16:01the universe that I don't quite
2:16:03understand. Maybe it's a dopamineergic
2:16:05thing, but the depth of that pit oftent
2:16:08times is the mirror image of the height
2:16:10of the thing that you're going to
2:16:11accomplish. I don't know how that works,
2:16:14but you later you're going to find
2:16:17yourself at a peak and you should
2:16:19remember and go,
2:16:21"Yeah, got out, got out, went back in,
2:16:25went back in, got out. Now I'm here, and
2:16:28I'm going to savor it a little bit
2:16:30more." Because that's I think also us
2:16:32being tested. Are you going to savor it?
2:16:34You're going to appreciate it? You're
2:16:35going to share it? Because then we can
2:16:37build on it. But otherwise you might not
2:16:40end up in the pit but you kind of drop
2:16:41back down again. You know it's um but if
2:16:45you take good care you can stay at a
2:16:46high level for a long time.
2:16:48>> True.
2:16:48>> You know I have I want to change a gear
2:16:51a little bit and just talk about two
2:16:53three last things.
2:16:54>> Sure.
2:16:54>> Which is one is have you ever studied
2:16:57immigrants by any chance?
2:16:59>> Well my father is a first generation
2:17:01immigrant to the United States. So I
2:17:02haven't studied them specifically but um
2:17:05you know
2:17:06>> like immigrants consistently seem to
2:17:08outperform
2:17:10the you know native people in anywhere
2:17:13any part of the world right.
2:17:14>> Oh yeah especially their the children of
2:17:16native people.
2:17:17>> Exactly. Like and in America every day
2:17:21we hear about stories of immigrants who
2:17:24are just killing it everywhere you look
2:17:26at the top position they're just
2:17:27immigrants or the kids of immigrants
2:17:29right? Why and how?
2:17:32>> Great question. And I think it's because
2:17:33they look around and they see
2:17:35opportunity. Everywhere else somebody
2:17:37sees neutral or negative. I think it's
2:17:39this fighter mentality. It's a there's
2:17:42there's some there's something here that
2:17:47people who've been here a long time
2:17:48don't appreciate or they do, but there's
2:17:51stuff wide open. You know, my high
2:17:53school girlfriend, her father had a um
2:17:55like a I think he had like a seventh
2:17:57grade education. He'd been a taxi driver
2:17:59and a few things. He had worked from a
2:18:00young age cuz he was very poor. He moved
2:18:01to the Bay Area and he carried hundreds
2:18:05of keys on his key ring because he early
2:18:07on
2:18:09bought uh properties in the South Bay
2:18:12Bay Area when no one was interested in
2:18:14these areas and he did all the
2:18:16maintenance himself
2:18:18>> and they did very well for themselves
2:18:20because then this thing called Silicon
2:18:21Valley happened and then property became
2:18:23very useful and then next thing you know
2:18:24his his daughters had horses and you
2:18:26know all this stuff and but he was a
2:18:28hardworking guy and first generation
2:18:31immigrant. I think he saw opportunity.
2:18:33He was like, I could I think to his
2:18:35mind, why would he pay anyone to do the
2:18:37maintenance? First of all, I don't think
2:18:38he could afford it at first, but he had
2:18:40the skills. Next thing you know, he's
2:18:42the guy owning huge swaths of land and
2:18:45property in in the South Bay area,
2:18:46Silicon Valley, which is extremely
2:18:48lucrative. But he did it through sheer
2:18:50sweat.
2:18:52>> Sheer sweat. So, I think there's just a
2:18:54this idea like there's something here
2:18:56that there's resources that others
2:18:57aren't taking because they think it it's
2:18:59every day. It's like what what good is
2:19:01that place? What good is this school?
2:19:03What is like it's around you? We
2:19:05attenuate to things around us.
2:19:07>> And I think that and you also can see
2:19:11this isn't always true, but many times
2:19:13multigenerational
2:19:15families where there's a lot of wealth,
2:19:17you know, you have kids that don't do
2:19:19well or you kids that just, you know,
2:19:20too many resources can be tough, too.
2:19:22>> Yeah.
2:19:22>> It's a it's a tricky balance. So I think
2:19:25that the immigrant mentality is one of
2:19:27seeing opportunity and taking
2:19:29opportunity and it's on a backdrop of
2:19:32people who are not
2:19:35looking at that environment in the same
2:19:37way. They they attenuate. I mean this is
2:19:39a weird thing about the human brain is
2:19:40we we habituate to a certain level of
2:19:43caloric intake to a certain level of of
2:19:46freedom and ease and peace. So this is
2:19:48why self-imposed friction is very
2:19:49valuable, especially if you are come
2:19:52from a a family where there is not a lot
2:19:54of hardship. I mean it's impressive
2:19:56you've self-imposed hardship through a
2:19:59vision of yourself and what you can
2:20:00create for the world. Um many people
2:20:03can't do that that too. They feel ease,
2:20:06>> you know. I mean, look, everyone loves a
2:20:08good foot rub and a big meal and a the
2:20:10great night's sleep and all the rest,
2:20:12but um
2:20:16some of the most unhappy people I know
2:20:18are people that never strived for
2:20:20anything. In fact, the most unhappy
2:20:23people I know of my peer group were the
2:20:25ones whose parents gave them just enough
2:20:27money so that they never really had to
2:20:29push themselves.
2:20:31And they're the ones with a lot of
2:20:33depression, a lot of issues of
2:20:35self-worth, a lot of um yeah, you got
2:20:39you gota it's good to have your head
2:20:41held under water for a short while so
2:20:43you can appreciate oxygen when you come
2:20:44up, you [laughter] know, so to speak. So
2:20:47to speak, that's a that's a I'm I'm not
2:20:49being literal there. [laughter] Um yeah,
2:20:52you go.
2:20:52>> Do you think that
2:20:54>> Yeah.
2:20:55>> But do you think that changes your brain
2:20:57from the inside? Like does it wire
2:20:59something that does the the neurology or
2:21:03like the chemistry inside my brain
2:21:04changes if I go through certain
2:21:06hardships in my life?
2:21:07>> Absolutely. Because
2:21:10what's so important for people to
2:21:11understand about the brain is that it as
2:21:14much as it learns facts.
2:21:16It learns algorithms. It learns
2:21:19friction. I got out of friction
2:21:21>> or in some cases friction, it crushed
2:21:24me. So now you need to teach it a new a
2:21:26new contingency. You need to teach a new
2:21:28algorithm. So you need those. That's why
2:21:30I said like shorten the horizon. You
2:21:31need some small wins so we can learn, oh
2:21:33that's what a win looks like. I made it
2:21:35an hour. But people who have who are
2:21:37dealing with something are thinking like
2:21:38ah I can't get out of this mindset.
2:21:40Well, you got out of it long enough to
2:21:41say that sentence. If you shorten the
2:21:44horizon, then they can do it a little
2:21:45longer and a little longer and a little
2:21:46longer. This is why the cold water
2:21:48thing, the exercise thing, um
2:21:50constructing your days the way that
2:21:52we're talking about, you start doing
2:21:53those things and you realize that you
2:21:54are in more control than you think. But
2:21:57some people are very plagued by a very
2:22:00um punishing, destructive inner voice.
2:22:03And that it's a tough one. But you got
2:22:04to learn to turn that one off. Or
2:22:07you know the Gogggins approach. He
2:22:09listens to criticism of himself while he
2:22:11runs. He's learned to channel it into
2:22:13this kind of FU response. You know, I
2:22:16don't want to live there. But
2:22:18>> me neither.
2:22:19>> But I I known David a long time
2:22:21actually. I I I met him first time in
2:22:232016 before he had a book or anything
2:22:25else. He was always super driven. And
2:22:29knowing his story a bit, I think he had
2:22:33to figure out a way because the voice in
2:22:35his head was so destructive. He had to
2:22:38turn it into a different version of
2:22:39himself. Acknowledge that it came from
2:22:42the outside and create this whole new
2:22:43version of himself. He has multiple
2:22:45people in there. All him. He's very, you
2:22:48know, psychologically healthy. I do
2:22:49believe that. Um, but he has to do the
2:22:53like no, no, no to these certain voices
2:22:56and like the only voice I'm going to
2:22:58listen to is the one that's going to
2:22:59pull me forward. And that's a that's a
2:23:01battle I don't think any of us would
2:23:03want to live in. But, uh, David is
2:23:06special because of what he's done. But
2:23:09what he's trying to tell people, I do
2:23:11believe, is that they can do it too, but
2:23:14they have to change their frame. They
2:23:15can't expect those voices to turn off. I
2:23:18think you and I are pro if I I don't
2:23:20know. I've never been in your head. I
2:23:21don't I stay out of people's heads, but
2:23:23um speculating about David, but I I I
2:23:27don't live with that voice in my head.
2:23:29>> Me neither.
2:23:30>> I don't live with universal. You're
2:23:32perfect. You're loving. You're all this
2:23:33stuff. You're loved. I I
2:23:37but I don't live with a punishing voice
2:23:40in my head. And that's got to be very
2:23:42hard. So, I want to acknowledge that's
2:23:43got to be hard. But you got to turn the
2:23:45volume down on that one. or crank it up
2:23:47to 10 and fight it the whole way through
2:23:50and but you learn the algorithm of how
2:23:52to do it.
2:23:53>> You know all of these things which we
2:23:54talked about regulation in in terms in
2:23:57particular terms it's going to get
2:23:59harder because of technology.
2:24:00>> Yeah.
2:24:01>> Do you think so?
2:24:02>> Like you know every technology if I have
2:24:04to make it specific like how
2:24:08>> they made one part of our life more
2:24:10difficult. Yeah,
2:24:12>> let's say memory became more difficult
2:24:13since we had phones.
2:24:15>> Navigation became difficult since we had
2:24:18>> Google maps.
2:24:20>> And now maybe thinking is going to be
2:24:22difficult because of AI.
2:24:23>> We trade it. Yes, I agree that we trade
2:24:27um skills for convenience. You know, we
2:24:30don't cook cuz we can order Door Dash.
2:24:32Love Door Dash. like food like you know
2:24:35few years ago I didn't order food much
2:24:36but now it's clearly the much more
2:24:39efficient and even economical way to go
2:24:41um much of the time but I know how to
2:24:45cook if I need to [gasps]
2:24:47with thinking I think we need to be just
2:24:49be careful right I don't eat junk food
2:24:51door dash every day I also cook some
2:24:53meals right I think um like I use chat
2:24:56GPT to self- test myself on material
2:24:58generate a self- test about this it's a
2:25:01great way to self- past. Um, I think AI
2:25:04is going to really positively transform
2:25:06the world. I really do. But I born and
2:25:09raised in Silicon Valley and I've seen
2:25:11the way that people get fear of job
2:25:13replacement. It happens a bit. You know,
2:25:15few years ago was the learn to code
2:25:16thing and then now you don't really need
2:25:19to know how to code. I think there's
2:25:20still some value in knowing how to code,
2:25:22but you get the point. Um,
2:25:26I think all technologies do this. They
2:25:31point out our most vulnerable and our
2:25:33most generative sides and we just have
2:25:35to be very careful. I think with the
2:25:37phone,
2:25:39practice putting it into a lock box or
2:25:41if you don't need a lock box into a
2:25:42drawer for a few hours and doing some
2:25:44focused work per day and coming back to
2:25:45it. Just practice it. If you can't do
2:25:46that, you have a what's called a
2:25:48problem. Do it and you'll feel better.
2:25:51You might be anxious when you are away
2:25:52from it, but learn to ride that out. And
2:25:55don't I I think part of it is that
2:25:58humans don't like to be controlled. Deep
2:26:01down we don't like to be controlled. So
2:26:03if you recognize you're being controlled
2:26:05now you stand a chance to fight back. I
2:26:07mean humans fighting back is the story
2:26:10of human evolution. Humans being too
2:26:12cold and fighting back against being
2:26:14cold is what allowed them to you know
2:26:18fire, electricity and so forth. Being
2:26:21too warm has allowed them to build air
2:26:22conditioning and ice and refrigerators.
2:26:24So, you know, wanting to get places more
2:26:27quickly to see like telephones that pick
2:26:30any example. The the friction point is
2:26:34where and this is a theme that seems to
2:26:36be coming up again and again today. You
2:26:38have to get right up to that friction
2:26:39point. Oh, you wasted 3 hours on social
2:26:43media doing nothing. I think you can
2:26:45learn on social media and you can be
2:26:46entertained, but 3 hours. Okay, now you
2:26:49really feel bad about yourself. That's a
2:26:51friction point. Great. Set a rule.
2:26:54You get an hour
2:26:56>> 20. I have social media on a separate
2:26:58phone. So I have an older phone has
2:27:00Instagram and X. That phone is either
2:27:04with me or if it's becoming a problem
2:27:06for me, it goes into a Supermax prison
2:27:08lock box. You can buy one for like 15
2:27:10bucks. Program it in. You cannot open
2:27:12it. You cannot open it. And just leave
2:27:15it in there for like when I go in for a
2:27:17workout, I know the hardest part is not
2:27:18hopping on my phone during the rest
2:27:20periods. So I lock it in there for two
2:27:21hours. I can't even get it out.
2:27:24>> You just have to enfor you you have to
2:27:25self- enforce. Now the good news for
2:27:27people who are striving is that now more
2:27:31than ever GoGan says this, it's easier
2:27:33to get ahead. You read a book, nobody
2:27:35does that. Do you read a book, it's
2:27:37still enriching. You listen to a book,
2:27:39you listen to a podcast start to finish,
2:27:40you uh you have good relationship to
2:27:43your phone and social media, you're like
2:27:46moving into the winner category just by
2:27:48virtue of what you're not doing. Yeah,
2:27:50>> it's still hard, but it never it's never
2:27:53been easier to move ahead. Now, to me,
2:27:56it doesn't feel good to move ahead
2:27:59because others are dropping behind. I'm
2:28:01not that guy, but I'm going to continue
2:28:05to go and your generation is going to
2:28:08continue to build things. I think the
2:28:11the opportunities are greater than ever
2:28:14uh for people to build businesses and
2:28:16lives. The I think a lot of it does have
2:28:19to do with not being purely consumer.
2:28:20And I think the simple question you
2:28:22should ask yourself, am I a consumer or
2:28:24a creator in this moment? Spend some
2:28:26time being a creator every day, you're
2:28:27going to be you're going to be okay. If
2:28:30you're purely a consumer every day, it's
2:28:32tough. I mean, if you put aside your
2:28:34entire life to watch World Cup, like I
2:28:36see people getting really excited, but I
2:28:38get it. You know, my dad's Argentine.
2:28:39he's not into soccer. Like if people
2:28:41love World Cup and they're not that into
2:28:42their jobs sometimes and they they you
2:28:45know, but if you're going to be purely a
2:28:48consumer, you're going to end up in a
2:28:51place where you are spent out. So you
2:28:54you have to you have to fight some of
2:28:56these internal reflexes to just be a
2:28:59consumer.
2:28:59>> Yeah. I I used to say this and I've been
2:29:02saying this I think six, seven years
2:29:04now. Become the producer of the thing
2:29:06that you consume the most. That's like
2:29:08the easiest way for you to start working
2:29:11on something.
2:29:12>> Yes. Yes. I love that. I I that perfect.
2:29:15Yes. As a scientist, I was like, I love
2:29:17these papers. I want to do research in
2:29:18this area. I'm going to do science and
2:29:20publish papers in that area. Podcast. I
2:29:22love these podcasts. I love these
2:29:23themes. I'm going to do my own version
2:29:24of something like that, but different
2:29:26and create it. And I'm probably on the
2:29:29second act of my career. I don't know
2:29:30what the third act will be, but I'm
2:29:31going to do something else. It'll be
2:29:33related to what I'm doing. I don't know
2:29:34what it is. I truly have no idea. Will
2:29:36you get into entrepreneurship, building
2:29:37something?
2:29:38>> Yeah. Yeah, I could see myself doing
2:29:40that. Um, I don't know. Or maybe
2:29:42something really in the creative arts or
2:29:44something like that, but I don't have
2:29:45any musical talent. I I can draw
2:29:47somewhat, but I don't know. It'll come
2:29:49to me. I've called it in like
2:29:51something's going to happen where I'll
2:29:53naturally veer that way. But for the
2:29:55time being,
2:29:55>> we're waiting for we're waiting for it.
2:29:57>> Yeah, it'll come. It'll come in in time.
2:30:00>> You know, you have you studied brain.
2:30:02You study brain. You have almost answers
2:30:04for like everything, right? you know at
2:30:06least everything about what goes on in
2:30:08the brain. But I was listening to one of
2:30:11your one of your podcast or one of the
2:30:14clips that I saw that you struggled with
2:30:16romantic relationship. Right.
2:30:18>> I have. [clears throat] Things are good
2:30:19now.
2:30:19>> Yeah. Now the answer are good but you
2:30:21>> it took some time. Yeah.
2:30:23>> Right. So you you struggle with it.
2:30:25What's about love
2:30:27>> that all the information in the world
2:30:30about neuroscience also cannot
2:30:32understand.
2:30:33>> Oh so much. My goodness. Um, I would say
2:30:36I know a to be fair, I I would say I
2:30:39know a lot because I've spent a lot of
2:30:41time studying it and researching it
2:30:42directly. Like there's nothing
2:30:43fundamentally
2:30:46[snorts] different from just like
2:30:47learning something in a textbook to like
2:30:49actually putting your hands in brains,
2:30:50cutting brains, staining brains,
2:30:51recording neurons electrically. And you,
2:30:54you know, spending a lot of time in that
2:30:56landscape. So I I wouldn't by no stretch
2:30:58do I think I understand everything
2:31:00that's known about the brain. I know a
2:31:02lot understand a lot of it. Um, and we
2:31:05certainly don't know everything as a
2:31:06field about the brain. There's still
2:31:07tons to discover. So, just to be clear,
2:31:09I mean, romantic love is one of those
2:31:11things where
2:31:13when I said I've struggled with
2:31:15relationships, um, I didn't struggle
2:31:17with the love part. [laughter]
2:31:19I struggled with the, um,
2:31:24not making [clears throat]
2:31:26always the best choices about romantic
2:31:28partners. um it's not putting the blame
2:31:30on them just and being caught up in the
2:31:33feelings and then being disappointed
2:31:36and the let down. And I think that what
2:31:39I've learned is um love is can be a bit
2:31:43of a drug. I don't want to take away
2:31:46from it because it's also a beautiful
2:31:48feature of life that is not drug-like,
2:31:50right? And it can be very sustaining,
2:31:52you know. Um it was odd for me to see
2:31:54that there were certain areas of my life
2:31:56like my romantic relationships where
2:31:59things did were not working out in the
2:32:01long run as well as I had hoped and
2:32:04whereas my friendships my career my
2:32:06relationship to my biological family my
2:32:08pets you know all that just flourishing
2:32:10and flourishing like what what's going
2:32:12on like you know and I think for me
2:32:17the real key this was just for me was to
2:32:19just slow down to really focus on the
2:32:23friendship component first and really
2:32:26take the time to get to know um to
2:32:31really take the time to get to know
2:32:33someone and to really build the
2:32:35friendship because I would remain
2:32:36friends with people that I had dated and
2:32:38we were on good terms but it's different
2:32:40I think that um
2:32:44for people that feel
2:32:46love in a big way it's so easy there's a
2:32:49whole script that comes from that okay
2:32:51so So you do that and then you move in
2:32:52together and then you or or maybe you
2:32:54don't. Do do they still do arranged
2:32:56marriages in India?
2:32:57>> Yeah. Is common?
2:32:58>> Yeah.
2:32:59>> Is it less common now?
2:33:00>> Is it's still very common but the
2:33:02numbers is significantly reducing but
2:33:04still very common
2:33:04>> and as I understand the outcomes in
2:33:06terms of long-term uh like I want to say
2:33:10prognosis sounds like a disease
2:33:12long-term um success is very high.
2:33:15Right. Yeah. So maybe we're just going
2:33:17about it all wrong in the west, you
2:33:19know, but I I found that I was like, ah,
2:33:23like I' I've fallen really in love with
2:33:26people and I still have wonderful
2:33:27feelings about them and not all of them.
2:33:29I've had some challenging relationships
2:33:30and some better ones, but I'm on great
2:33:32terms with with a lot of my exes and
2:33:35they're married and in some cases not
2:33:37and um still think about them and
2:33:39communicate from time to time, you know,
2:33:41uh with tremendous um kindness and and
2:33:45it's great. I think it's just a matter
2:33:47of slowing things down and building that
2:33:49real deep trust that this could because
2:33:53you are in some sense trusting this
2:33:55person with your life.
2:33:56>> Yeah.
2:33:57>> Right. I mean, it's a little bit of an
2:33:59extreme statement, but there's no other
2:34:02perhaps besides children um level of
2:34:06investment like that where you know this
2:34:08person can really hurt you
2:34:11by virtue of what they say, what they
2:34:13do. And so you're you're handing them a
2:34:15very powerful um I don't want to say a
2:34:18weapon because it sounds so cynical.
2:34:19You're giving them a lot of power.
2:34:21>> When have you felt the most powerless in
2:34:23your life?
2:34:24>> Well, that's a great question. You ask
2:34:26hard questions, my friend. Um,
2:34:32three times.
2:34:34The first time was when my parents split
2:34:38and my whole focus at that time was not
2:34:40on that. It was on wanting to make it in
2:34:43this like skateboarding career and I
2:34:44kept getting hurt and I wasn't very
2:34:45good. This is kind of like the not so
2:34:48secret secret. I I I talk a lot about
2:34:50that time and I'm always clear to point
2:34:51out like I was not going to be one of
2:34:54the like guys that turned pro. I had
2:34:56friends turning pro. I just I don't know
2:34:58my body wasn't mature enough yet. I
2:35:00didn't have the spring and the strength
2:35:02yet. You really need a lot of that and I
2:35:04didn't have that then. Later I got
2:35:05stronger but I moved on to other things.
2:35:08Um, I felt really alone like what's
2:35:11going to happen with my life because my
2:35:12home life was like blah and that was a
2:35:15mess and school and and then I just
2:35:18started spiraling and that's when things
2:35:19got really bad and got myself into all
2:35:21sorts of bad situations for a long time
2:35:24and then dug myself out. So that was one
2:35:26time. The second time was when my um
2:35:30graduate adviser died because we were so
2:35:33close and my undergraduate adviser had
2:35:36killed himself in a very dramatic
2:35:40way at a particular time that was really
2:35:43hard. Um and when my graduate adviser
2:35:46when she died, she was very much like a
2:35:48mother to me, very maternal. I know that
2:35:49sounds a little bit like, well, you were
2:35:51she was just your graduate adviser, but
2:35:53I really loved and trusted her. I knew
2:35:55her family. I know her daughter, one of
2:35:57them is a neuroscientist now. I I
2:35:59remember when she was pregnant with her
2:36:00daughters, I was friends with her
2:36:01husband. They were like family to me. I
2:36:03remember feeling like [snorts] like what
2:36:06is this? And then when my third adviser
2:36:07died, I thought like I'm cursed. Like
2:36:09what is this? Because in science, your
2:36:12scientific adviserss do a lot for you.
2:36:14They help you a lot, but they're also
2:36:15just a pillars of stability that you can
2:36:18call and talk to. So I thought you have
2:36:19this family history, biological family
2:36:21history, and now my academic parents.
2:36:22I'm like an academic orphan, literally.
2:36:25But then I realized
2:36:28I can do whatever I want. But this time,
2:36:30unlike when I was younger, I'm not going
2:36:32to take that I can do whatever I want
2:36:34because my parents are out of like back
2:36:36then they weren't dead, but out of the
2:36:38picture. I'm not going to be
2:36:39self-destructive. I'm going to start
2:36:40this podcast thing. And I don't have an
2:36:42adviser to tell me, "Hey, this isn't a
2:36:44good idea. I'm the adult now." Unlike
2:36:47when I was 14, I'm like, I'm the adult
2:36:50in my life. Now granted, I was in my
2:36:5340s, but I didn't in science, there's
2:36:56this long-term, decadesl long thing
2:36:59where advisers help their their
2:37:01underlings.
2:37:03It's a big thing. So I was like, I don't
2:37:06have anyone. This is not rebellion, but
2:37:09I'm totally free. Totally free. I'm
2:37:13going to look into my heart. What do I
2:37:14want to do? I'm going to build something
2:37:15that is about science, but also health
2:37:17and wellness. And I got a lot of
2:37:20support, but a lot of people probably
2:37:21thinking like, what is that thing? And a
2:37:23lot of people now, you know, some have
2:37:26come around, some haven't. Honestly, I
2:37:28don't care. Like, I just hope they're
2:37:30happy doing what they're doing. So, that
2:37:32was the second time, and I transmuted
2:37:34that into goodness. This was the first
2:37:37time I really my life got really choppy
2:37:39early on, really bad. And then the third
2:37:42time was, you know, I think a few years
2:37:46back I had uh I had poured my heart and
2:37:49soul into a relationship and it was the
2:37:52wrong relationship, but I really did
2:37:55pour my heart and soul into it. And then
2:37:56when I realized that there were se
2:37:58serious issues that I just couldn't
2:38:01resolve for them, I um I had to move on.
2:38:05And it was a very it was a messy messy
2:38:07thing. And I remember thinking, gosh,
2:38:09like
2:38:11being misunderstood about that is is
2:38:13really hard because look, I think they
2:38:15were doing the best they could. I was
2:38:16doing the best I could with what we had
2:38:18at that time. And I think that's the
2:38:21hardest part. You know, earlier we were
2:38:22talking about public life and criticism.
2:38:24I don't mind it either. It's being but
2:38:26being misunderstood is very challenging.
2:38:28>> Yeah. And I had to do some real
2:38:30soulsearching and I and then I realized
2:38:32that I was having all these challenging
2:38:35thoughts. But then all around me was
2:38:37this amazing thing. I've got this
2:38:39podcast. I've got an amazing podcast
2:38:40team. I'm a great relationship with my
2:38:42parents who are in their 80s and are
2:38:43healthy. Thank God. My sister who I
2:38:46love, my niece who I love, my friends. I
2:38:49have a, you know, a relationship came
2:38:52into my life and like amazing friends
2:38:54and opportunities and all of a sudden I
2:38:55realized I'm like I'm sitting in the
2:38:58promised land and I'm thinking about
2:39:01like this thing and how it relates to
2:39:03these old things that didn't work out
2:39:05and I thought
2:39:07and I'm just like that's it. It was the
2:39:08time it was I had to think about certain
2:39:10things but then it was also time to just
2:39:12like flick it off like a piece of lint.
2:39:14I'm done with all that. Let's go. And
2:39:17ever since then, everything's been
2:39:18healthy and great. And so, I do think
2:39:20there's sometimes when it's as easy as
2:39:22that where you just you shut the door.
2:39:24You know, the whole burn the boats
2:39:25mentality like I'm just not going to
2:39:27allow myself to to spiral.
2:39:32So, u and I hope that was the last one,
2:39:36but but I'm human, so it probably come
2:39:38again. Listen, I lately I think a lot. I
2:39:40mean, it sounds like you're close with
2:39:41your parents, too. I Yeah. I as
2:39:43challenging as it's been in the past, I
2:39:45I um I'm bracing myself
2:39:49for my parents passing, even though
2:39:52hopefully it's a long time from now. By
2:39:54all accounts, they seem healthy, but
2:39:56it's going to be hard to live like not
2:39:57be able to call them.
2:39:59>> Yeah.
2:39:59>> And my mom probably will say, "Well, you
2:40:01don't call enough as it is." But but I
2:40:03think about her a lot and uh and I we do
2:40:05talk and um but that's life and you
2:40:08can't live braced in fear of what's to
2:40:12come or what could happen that then
2:40:13you're like that person that we were
2:40:14trying to talk to earlier. You just got
2:40:16to [sighs]
2:40:18protect your heart but move forward and
2:40:20just and and live life. And and I do
2:40:23believe I do say this and I mean it. If
2:40:26God forbid I were to drop dead walking
2:40:28out of this podcast like I'm good. I'm
2:40:30good. I have my I've done my will. You
2:40:33know, that wasn't actually a very good
2:40:35exercise for me. It's a kind of strange,
2:40:37right, to think about mortality. We
2:40:38don't like to think about it to go I
2:40:40could die. What would I want to make
2:40:41sure happened for people? What do I want
2:40:44to make sure people knew about how I
2:40:47felt about them? This p every podcast I
2:40:49go on is opportunity to learn and to
2:40:51teach. Every time I can perhaps help
2:40:54somebody, like I don't want to die, but
2:40:57I'm I'm okay. I'm okay. Every time I hit
2:41:01turbulence, I go I'm I I've tried to
2:41:04take myself to the edge, but not off the
2:41:07edge my entire life. And it's a great
2:41:09place to live because whether or not I
2:41:12die at 50 or 90 or 110 or somewhere in
2:41:17there, like I'm I'm good. I really am. I
2:41:20I really I've made my peace with it. And
2:41:22so, um, in part because I get these
2:41:25amazing opportunities like to connect to
2:41:26your audience and and to you.
2:41:28>> Thank you. We glad you did this. Thank
2:41:31you so much. Here's the last oneline
2:41:33question that we ask every day.
2:41:36>> Yeah. It's
2:41:37>> what's the cost of being Andrew
2:41:39Huberman?
2:41:41>> The cost.
2:41:45>> Oh man, it's all love that it's all
2:41:47upside these days. Which is not to say I
2:41:50don't have difficulties.
2:41:52Um,
2:41:53okay. I'll actually answer your
2:41:55question.
2:42:00I experience emotions very intensely. I
2:42:03think I got that from my mother. And I'm
2:42:05also very ambitious. And I have a vision
2:42:09of the world that I want to help
2:42:11contribute to creating.
2:42:14And holding those two things
2:42:18inside can be
2:42:20challenging and sometimes can be
2:42:22downright agony because I want to help
2:42:26every single person. I want to drop into
2:42:30every single emotion, but I can't cuz
2:42:34I've got work to do. I've got to keep
2:42:36the bigger picture in mind. And the hard
2:42:39work is thankfully these days it's not
2:42:42about staying out of the deep trenches.
2:42:44I've moved past that. It's about
2:42:48trying to stay in a mode of action and
2:42:52striving but also peace. And so for me
2:42:56um that just comes from gratitude, a
2:42:59relationship to God and and prayer. And
2:43:04sometimes it's really hard. I'm like,
2:43:06everybody, I sometimes I feel like I'm
2:43:08trying to run fast with my shoelaces
2:43:10tied and uh
2:43:13but I'm gonna keep going. That's that's
2:43:15all I can do. It's all I've ever done.
2:43:16>> So, the cost is because you're so
2:43:18ambitious,
2:43:20you can't help every loved one around
2:43:23you, even though you feel very intensely
2:43:25about them.
2:43:26>> Yeah. You know, it's funny. My my
2:43:28girlfriend knows this about me. If I if
2:43:30someone stops me on the street, for
2:43:31instance, it's like, "Oh, like I like
2:43:33your podcast." Like I go, "What's your
2:43:35name?" like I actually want to know
2:43:36their name. What do you do? Like ah like
2:43:39they'll ask me a question like I I'm not
2:43:41playing a role when I do my podcast. I'm
2:43:44they just popped a microphone in front
2:43:46of me. I've always been that way
2:43:48[snorts] and um and yet I can't have the
2:43:50deep dive conversation with everybody.
2:43:52So that's why I podcast to get out to as
2:43:54many people as possible. So sometimes
2:43:56the pain is that um that I can't shake
2:44:00every hand and meet every person truly.
2:44:03I know it sounds like a some sort of PR
2:44:05line, but it's true. Um, I
2:44:08[clears throat] think everybody has a
2:44:11light inside and I can feel that when I
2:44:14meet them. I can like feel it. I don't
2:44:16think I'm looking for it. I just shows
2:44:18up. Sometimes it's different or brighter
2:44:20to different contour, but I can like
2:44:22feel and and I would I want to connect
2:44:25with people. So, as a public person
2:44:27behind a microphone or on a stage, you
2:44:29realize this that you're connecting kind
2:44:31of out like this and it's coming back
2:44:33and um I just have to appreciate that.
2:44:36And sometimes that's a bit of work, but
2:44:38I feel very very blessed, very very
2:44:40blessed to have this opportunity. You're
2:44:41a special individual. I I have to say I
2:44:43can I get a very good sense of people
2:44:46and um certain domains of life I wasn't
2:44:49so good at that. in the professional
2:44:51realm and certainly across the table in
2:44:53podcasting, I can like I'm sure I know
2:44:55you have this skill too. You can like
2:44:56feel somebody's genuine heart and their
2:44:59mind. Clearly, you have a a very sharp
2:45:01mind and you're very driven, but um
2:45:04you're like, you're not doing this for
2:45:06kicks and you're not doing this for
2:45:08money. You're doing this cuz you love it
2:45:11and uh your heart really comes through
2:45:13in it and your mind and you're throwing
2:45:14everything you've got into it. I love
2:45:16that. like you're all in and uh you've
2:45:19made me feel very comfortable as a guest
2:45:20in a way that um is not easy to do and
2:45:24and that I wasn't resisting but um
2:45:26really want to say thank you. You you've
2:45:28created a wonderful thing and I I feel
2:45:30very lucky to have this opportunity.
2:45:32>> Thank you so much. It means a lot that
2:45:34this is coming out of you like it means
2:45:37a lot. Thank you so much.
2:45:38>> Thank you.
2:45:38>> I appreciate your time and everything
2:45:40and I'm
2:45:41>> Thank you for doing this on a very busy
2:45:43day.
2:45:44>> Oh well, right back at you. uh we are
2:45:46colleagues and uh hopefully we'll become
2:45:48friends.
2:45:49>> Absolutely. Do many more conversations
2:45:52on podcast and off podcast.
2:45:54>> I'd also someday like to visit India.
2:45:55I'll I'll buy my own ticket there but I
2:45:57I I've always been intrigued.
2:45:59>> You tell me when. Let me host you.
2:46:01>> Okay.
2:46:02>> You we will
2:46:04>> you're going to lose your mind. I'm
2:46:05going to Okay, perfect. Done. You just
2:46:07you tell me what are your dates. Let me
2:46:10design everything for you and you'll
2:46:11love it.
2:46:11>> Okay.
2:46:12>> Let us do it.
2:46:13>> All right. You're on.
2:46:14>> Done. Okay,
2:46:15>> I'm excited. You should do it.
2:46:16>> Thank you so much for watching this
2:46:18episode till the end. We would love to
2:46:20know what you liked or disliked about
2:46:22this episode and which guest you would
2:46:25like to see again on this show or which
2:46:28are the new guests that you want to see.
2:46:30Let us know in the comments. Your
2:46:31feedback helps us improve and make every
2:46:34episode a little better. I'll see you
2:46:36the next time. Until then, keep figuring
2:46:39out.
2:46:40[music]
2:46:47[music]
2:46:53>> [music]

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