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An Unfiltered Conversation with Mr Lithium — Transcript

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0:01Well, the the capability really came
0:03from the west. Truth be told, we quit
0:05doing it and they have a huge cost
0:10advantage. You know, when they were
0:12talking about technologies that they
0:14were going to might limit the export of
0:16and one of the things they talked about
0:17was hard rock conversion and it was like
0:20really
0:22um we actually started
0:24that. Right, buddy. Mers, lithium
0:27spectacular coming your way. Boys, you
0:30know the best place to charge a lithium
0:32battery. Tell me, Matthew, in a charging
0:35station, probably in a grounded camp.
0:37They can put them in and cuz you know
0:39what? Cuz they don't build on the plan.
0:41They design the plan. Unbelievable. And
0:43then they build they design, concept,
0:46construct, mate. Absolute experts, mate.
0:48You can have a look at this joint. This
0:51is Subako on a mine site. And you see
0:54grounded zone Katie door walking around
0:56here. I swear that is the animated
0:58version of Katie Door. It's been modeled
1:00off. But you can mate unbelievable
1:04quality. That is what you will see in
1:07real life once the grounded team unleash
1:10their expertise on you. Camp is the
1:12wrong word. We need we need we need a
1:14new word for what these are because this
1:15is revolutionized accommodation on a
1:17mindsite. Resort. Resort. Resort.
1:21Village. Um, yeah. It's uh it's got it's
1:24got to make working there happy. City
1:25dwellings in the bush. Love it.
1:27Designed, concept, and constructed by
1:30the Grounded Group. Go Grounded, mate.
1:32Did they build their own building? They
1:34probably did down West Perth. I think
1:35they did. Yeah, definitely owned it.
1:39Love to know that. Anyway, back to
1:40Lithium. Mr. Joe Lowry, Mr. Lithium. Uh,
1:45come back. Bloody sorry I couldn't join
1:47us on this one. I hope you gave him more
1:48regards. Great fella. And uh what's
1:52what's the vibe? What is the vibe? The
1:55vibe is that we want to be
1:56counteryclical, Matthew. And as we sort
1:59of discuss in the show, lithium is very
2:01beaten up. No surprise to anyone. And
2:03why not have a chat about it with none
2:05other than Mr. Lithium. He covered
2:07everything under the sun in lithium
2:10world from the M&A that we've seen in
2:12recent times, the supply demand dynamic
2:15and the conversation really came off the
2:16back of his awesome write up on how the
2:19Chinese have dominated the lithium space
2:21in the battery metal battery metals and
2:23battery making arena for the last 5 10
2:27years. So I think that's all you kind of
2:29need to know for this one. So
2:30counteryclical you're saying find
2:32something that's gone down shitloads and
2:34hope it goes back up.
2:36Yeah, exactly in a nutshell. Right now,
2:39let's get into M Mr. Lithium. Mr.
2:42Lithium, we are very excited to to have
2:45you back on the show. It's been well
2:46over a year now and with where where
2:49lithium markets have been and the kind
2:51of general sentiment around the space.
2:53We thought it'd be a great time to get
2:55you back on the show. And then you
2:57actually published a a little piece on
3:00LinkedIn, the lithium art of war. And
3:03yeah, I never thought I'd lead in the
3:05podcast with a bit of Sunsu, but I think
3:07it's quite fitting
3:10given given your paper. So there was
3:12some fascinating sort of points and it
3:14sort of puts into perspective the uh the
3:17rise and rise of of China and the and
3:19the kind of falling off of the west. But
3:22yeah, keen keen to start the podcast to
3:24understand what was the the inspiration
3:26to to put into words what has happened
3:28over the past 15 20 years in the lithium
3:32arena.
3:34Well, as a proud
3:37American,
3:39I bewail our falling off a cliff,
3:43falling off the lithium cliff. Uh, over
3:46the years, over the, you know, when I
3:49started, everything that went to the
3:51battery industry was from the US, mined
3:54in the US, processed in the US, and and
3:56that was it was shortlived. It was only
3:59three or four years because we did not
4:01have the capacity at the time. and had
4:04to make a transition from hard rock to
4:07brine. But
4:08I really tire of the whining on the US.
4:14Well, I won't even limit it to the US.
4:16Europe too and in uh frame it more
4:20broadly, North America uh in Europe
4:23about China's unfair competition and how
4:28they've
4:29dominated. They were terrible at all
4:32this.
4:33for the better part of 15
4:36years, but they stuck with their
4:39program. You know, I can go back
4:42as recently
4:44as 2009, 2010. Nobody would buy Chinese
4:48material unless it was low-end stuff.
4:51The European Greece guys uh would buy
4:53their
4:54hydroxide. Uh but the Koreans and the
4:57Japanese who at that time still were
4:58dominant in the battery supply chain,
5:01they wouldn't touch um Chinese material.
5:04Gangfen didn't even start making
5:07carbonate and hydroxide until the last
5:1015 years. So they existed for over a
5:13decade before they even uh were in a
5:16financial position uh
5:17[Music]
5:19to put the capital and to convert.
5:23So it it's been an interesting rise and
5:26you know highlighted Gangfan. I could
5:27have just as easily talked about Tiani
5:29although I don't think their story is
5:31quite as interesting as Gang Fans. But
5:33then BYD also I I met BYD before I met
5:37Gangfen. Uh I I met BYD 25 years ago and
5:42was supplying them carbonate and uh
5:45cathode materials which we made it a
5:47joint venture uh in Japan and I saw that
5:51rise because their beginnings were very
5:54very humble as well and CL before their
5:58doing EVs right oh yeah this this was
6:02all they went up into the hinterland and
6:05got a bunch of teenage girls to make uh
6:08crummy batteries by hand. And literally,
6:11I mean, they put their capital in the
6:13testing equipment because back then, and
6:15and this is really fascinating, the
6:18first time I went to their
6:22facility, they were bragging about
6:25how making things by hand was actually a
6:28strength because they could pivot faster
6:30than Sony could. But they also were
6:34honest enough to say that most of their
6:36batteries couldn't be sold to the
6:38international cell phone market, which
6:40back then was two names you guys
6:42probably don't you might be familiar
6:44with. Nokia and Motorola. They were the
6:47big cell phone guys back then. I mean,
6:48it kind This was after the Gordon Gecko
6:51shoecase. Um, we're not that young, Joe.
6:54We We remember those.
6:57We I reckon we both owned one of them.
7:01Definitely. The United States did not
7:03have I mean myself I at the when I lived
7:06in Asia I had three cell phones. I had a
7:08China cell because roaming wasn't really
7:10a thing early on. So I had a China cell
7:12phone for trips to China. I was living
7:14in Japan. I had a Japanese cell phone
7:16and I had a US cell phone. And my US
7:19cell phone had a nickel metal hydride
7:22battery back then. So it was pre-
7:25lithium.
7:27Yeah. And looking at the market caps of
7:29these companies, I think just to to
7:31state the numbers so people really
7:33appreciate it, like BYD is in Aussie
7:36dollar terms $215 billion. So 2/3 of
7:40that to get the US market cap and cattle
7:42is about the same. Like these companies
7:45are they're bigger than BHB now. It's
7:47it's remarkable the um the the rise and
7:51rise. I want I want to hone in on on
7:53cattle for a second, Joe, because the
7:57the really interesting part that's stuck
7:59out to me from your writing was on their
8:02appreciation of vertical integration and
8:04what they learned in the the latest wild
8:07ride that we saw in that 21 22 boom and
8:11they you know went on to to purchase
8:13these lipid operations. How do you kind
8:16of put that in in perspective and you
8:19know think about how they might utilize
8:22those operations and the learnings
8:23they've got from that going forward over
8:25the next sort of 10 20 years?
8:28I I think it's even broader than just
8:31what CL did. But to go with the
8:37question in the 2022
8:40runup they had to try to keep their
8:43share. had a a program where they were
8:46guaranteeing that the form the price
8:48lithium price in the formula would be
8:51basically the equivalent of 20,000
8:53pricing which they lost a lot of money
8:56on as the price continued to rise and
8:59these guys are very smart people and
9:02they move
9:03fast. They didn't like what was
9:05happening.
9:08They realized that if price was just
9:10going to keep going up
9:11that they could
9:14exploit what were very well-known
9:17resources. They just weren't economic in
9:20any other lithium
9:23cycle. And it goes way beyond that
9:26though that the lepitoolite came on and
9:30then all the African
9:33move
9:35and they figured out I think really
9:38quickly how they're going to manage the
9:40next cycle because there's layers of you
9:44know the cost curve. uh your last
9:47lithium guest talked about the uh you
9:50know the concept of the steepening cost
9:51curve and that is certainly true and now
9:55I think that is going to be the the
9:58buffer on significant price runs in the
10:01future because all the Chinese
10:04converters know where this stuff is
10:07whether it's DSO or 2.5 or whatever the
10:11grades are Africa's has such a diversity
10:14of they have decent lithium and they
10:16have a lot of garbage, but when the
10:18price runs up to 35,000, then 40,000 and
10:21then all the way up to 80, you can use
10:24any of that stuff. And I think that the
10:30last
10:32cycle taught all of
10:35China, all their lithium supply chain,
10:39uh, how they'll react next time. I mean,
10:42it seemed quick in 2022, 2023. It'll be
10:45quicker next time. But I also believe
10:48there will be a shortage and there will
10:50be a price spike. Because on the other
10:52hand of what CL's done and and I think
10:56there's fair consensus that there's a
10:59lot of misinformation out there. If you
11:01go back to 2022, they were CO was
11:04pumping the sodium ion battery and how
11:06great it was going to be and the share
11:07it was going to get and they they knew
11:10the limitations of that. But it it was
11:13rhetoric that scared the
11:16West and that's that's the game. They've
11:20they've done a great job of
11:23disincentivizing capital from chasing
11:28um what I would call mediocre projects.
11:31No mediocre projects for MMS. All class
11:35boys. Ask me anything about MMS and
11:39mining. Does open pit mining have a
11:42relationship with underground mining?
11:44Matthew interesting question. Well,
11:47let's consider that Blackat have just
11:51taken pretty much same myes going
11:53underground. Now, if we can link that
11:55back to MMS, their superior performance
11:59at my getting there quicker obviously
12:01leaving it in schmeo condition. All the
12:04bloody walls are just ready to punch
12:06portals in. I would say yes. MMS have
12:10pretty much Blackat have said, "Holy
12:12shit, we can go underground now. We
12:14weren't expecting to be here. Thank you,
12:16MMS. That is pretty much what's
12:18happening. So, answer to your question,
12:20JD. Yes, if you buy the open pit quick
12:24at a superior quality, yes, it makes
12:27your underground better and sooner. If I
12:29understand you right, Matthew, that
12:31means earlier cash flow for you, the
12:34mining company. Well, that you probably
12:36just start just getting double the cash
12:38flow cuz the pit's still going. You
12:39didn't sterilize your body. You looked
12:40after it. Twice as much cash flow, five
12:43times as quicker, and your share price
12:45goes up like black cat when MMS is your
12:48trusted mining partner. Seems like a
12:49no-brainer to me, mate. Isn't it? What?
12:52Let's get back in the boot. Joe,
12:56just to tease that out even more, Joe,
12:57like what's their what's the the
12:59economic incentive for them to do do so?
13:02Well, take BYD and CL
13:05together. They're almost half of global
13:07lithium demand.
13:09two companies. We never had that
13:12situation before. If you look
13:15at 1.2 2 terowatt hours total last year
13:20roughly and BYD and CL being half of
13:24that and I'm a little more conservative
13:27on my lithium intensity than your guest
13:30from Singapore but any way you calculate
13:33it they
13:36are far and away the dominant purchaser
13:39of lithium values in whatever form
13:41whether it's cells cathode
13:44whatever and they have every incentive
13:46in the world to run a mine or a couple
13:50of mines at a loss. If you're buying
13:54three or 400,000 tons of
13:57LCE and you take a beating on 40, 50,
14:0160,000 tons, but you keep your
14:04other
14:07purchases 89 $10 below what they would
14:11run up to if you weren't doing that.
14:14It's it's not rocket science.
14:19If we if we go back once more, Joe, to
14:23to really set set the foundation for for
14:25this rise of these these Chinese
14:27companies, one of the other points you
14:29you make and and others have sort of
14:30made and you see it across all all
14:33industries, but you know, you know, very
14:35obviously in in the EV and the battery
14:37sort of space is the the way in which
14:40government and industry kind of mesh and
14:43and work together and they kind of
14:45coordinate to to achieve these
14:48strategic
14:49goals. When you look at like BYD and and
14:52cattle now, do do you see them as
14:54um being able to kind of run their own
14:56race and the the government has kind of
14:58just tap them in line when when that
15:00needs to kind of happen, but they're
15:02they're free to sort of do so or how do
15:04you view the the government and
15:07enterprise sort of relationship today?
15:10I think you just phrased it very well.
15:14they let them run until they have
15:18something to say. And I I think you you
15:20saw that I I don't know if it was the
15:23March meeting two years ago or when Xi
15:28Jinping told Robin Zong that uh he ought
15:30to be careful about going to the US and
15:32you needed to be dealing with friendly
15:36entities.
15:37um that I I'd have to go back and and
15:40Google that article, but it was it was
15:42pretty clear. And uh I think everybody
15:46knows the Jack Ma story. That's not a
15:48that's not a lithium story, but you
15:50know, they turned jack into a verb. You
15:53know, you get jack. So, I I think
15:56there's been a bit bit of a change
15:58lately though, right? the uh the the
16:00attitude towards successful business
16:02people is uh I don't know it's kind of
16:05altered a a little bit and Jack Mahar
16:07has you know been the been the face of
16:09that you you've seen him in public again
16:11which you didn't see for a number of
16:13years I think that's
16:15optics I think it's all optics right uh
16:20yeah I I not to be completely cynical
16:24but having lived there having watched it
16:27uh knowing some of these people.
16:30Um, you don't want to be the richest guy
16:33in China. You want to be three or four.
16:36When I lived there, there was two or
16:38three years where the person named the
16:40richest person in China was in jail the
16:43next year. I I used to love that saying
16:45that the fastest way to to die in in
16:47China is to become a billionaire.
16:52Yeah. But I mean, probably offended an
16:54entire nation there, so maybe I retract
16:56that one.
17:00I admire what China's done. I mean, that
17:03is my bottom line from the what I put up
17:06on on LinkedIn is that I think that it's
17:10very arrogant of North America or Europe
17:14to think they can do in a short period
17:16of time. what it literally took China
17:20decades to do with all the support put
17:23in place
17:26with I hired a lot of people when I
17:29lived in China and I always said I would
17:32much
17:34rather have to pick from a pool of
17:36Chinese talent than a pool of American
17:38talent. It's a tremendously industrious
17:41uh nation, right? Everybody wanted to
17:43get ahead. Um there there are nuances to
17:46how you manage Chinese uh young people.
17:51uh they're they do
17:53um probably need a little more stroking
17:57in terms
17:59of having a lot of the I managed
18:02different age groups and the young
18:03people were a little more aggressive but
18:05uh the people that had mom and dad went
18:09through the cultural revolution they had
18:10a respect for authority that uh you
18:13didn't really see so much in in the US
18:15at the time but there the 50 years of
18:19communism I used to say when I was
18:22living there didn't beat the
18:23entrepreneurial spirit out of the
18:25Chinese people.
18:27That's that that point is is often a bit
18:30lost in the commentary around China is
18:31just the the relative competitiveness
18:33that does exist amongst um you know the
18:36centralized government.
18:39It was the old saw, especially in in the
18:43early days of cathode, was once a
18:46company started making decent
18:48cathode, then one of their lead guys
18:51would quit, go down the street and open
18:53up another cathode uh supplier. It was
18:57just people wanted to be their own
19:00boss. And
19:02I admired
19:06the really
19:09the hard work, the the work ethic was
19:13impressive and so I may not like
19:18um Mr. Shei much, but I admire the
19:23Chinese people and will continue to do
19:25so. The supreme art of war is to subdue
19:27the enemy without fighting. How does
19:30this relate to lithium, Joe?
19:33Well, it it really does. And not to hype
19:37my podcast, but if you go back and
19:38listen to the episode not lost in
19:40translation with Leel Bing and Wang
19:43Xiaoen, I mean they talked about the
19:44early days they had
19:48to deal with everybody. They were the
19:52supplicants.
19:54They
19:55never there was never a discouraging
19:58word said. Um, but they knew where they
20:02wanted to go. And that was one of the
20:04things that I always told people that
20:06were dealing with them cuz I I made a
20:09presentation at Panorama Monero event
20:12last
20:13October and I showed gang fence slides
20:17that they had presented to me in
20:192005 about wanting to
20:22become a
20:26strong domestic
20:28supplier. And then they wanted to become
20:31a regional player. And this is not
20:34incarbonating hydroxide. This was in the
20:36downstream because they they had enough
20:38capital to to have a metal plant and
20:40they had enough capital to try to
20:43dothium. Um but I think if you look at
20:47the three companies I highlight in that
20:49article,
20:51they all started off
20:55with technology from other people.
20:59I mean
21:00CL's technology was came from
21:04Japan and or ATL did and then CL was an
21:08offshoot of that and there was always
21:12the the Chinese concept of they would
21:15always say you know big brother I need
21:19help and uh it
21:22wasn't it wasn't until they got to
21:25the where they are today that they
21:29now publicly still show the humility,
21:33but those guys are very confident in who
21:36they are and where they're going and
21:37they're certainly not afraid of anybody
21:38outside of China.
21:41On on the conversion front, like just
21:43how how many like how many years ahead
21:46like realistically would they be if if
21:47the you know if the if the the West
21:49tried to replicate some of some of that
21:51capability?
21:54Well, the the capability really came
21:56from the
21:57west. Truth be told, they learned how to
22:01convert spamine from us. We didn't
22:03learn. Now, we quit doing it. and they
22:08have a huge cost
22:11advantage. But, you know, that's that's
22:14something that I always push back on is
22:17that, you know, when they were talking
22:19about technologies that they were going
22:22to might limit the export of and one of
22:24the things they talked about was hard
22:26rock conversion and it was like really
22:29um we actually started that. So
22:33um but I take the question
22:36seriously. I look at
22:39Tesla Corpus Christi. They announced
22:42that the the calsider was turning but
22:45they haven't uh I haven't I haven't seen
22:47a lot of announcements about the great
22:49quality product that they're producing
22:50because uh it's not happening. uh as far
22:53as I know. Uh I don't want to get into
22:55trouble if they have been
22:59sneaking product to cathode makers, but
23:02I think I would know. Uh I I do think
23:06we're more hamstrung on the permitting
23:10side, the financing
23:12side.
23:14Um and and I think it's
23:17probably I would say the gap in simply
23:21lithium
23:23uh we can't catch up and we shouldn't
23:27even try to catch
23:28up but we do need our own supply chain
23:32too and that's just
23:35because when I was there and
23:37watching early days when I was first
23:40making trips once a month between 2000
23:43and 2005 before I moved to China from
23:46Japan there were not that many
23:49converters and
23:51how I I don't I don't have a any idea
23:56how many dozen conversion facilities
23:58there are now, but uh you
24:02um you had easy money when they were
24:05trying to develop the West. Uh the the
24:09regional banks were propping up people
24:12that weren't making a dime for years.
24:15And we don't we don't have that kind of
24:18uh situation in America. So, I'd say
24:21that's as much the problem as just the
24:23pure
24:24technology because I can get on the
24:26phone and call a bunch of
24:28people that live
24:31within a few hours of where I'm sitting
24:35that could get a converter build if they
24:36had the money and and they could put it
24:38into operation relatively quickly if
24:41they could get it permitted.
24:43if uh all the things that you have to do
24:47besides just the engineering.
24:51So to your point on on us needing to
24:54have our own supply chain in in the west
24:56and and needing to compete, what what do
24:58you make of the the IRA and where that
25:01kind of stands now and what that kind of
25:04looks looks like and you know any other
25:07sort of similar government type package
25:10to to kind of chip away at China's
25:13dominance.
25:16Well, I am heartened that we are
25:20building Thecker
25:21Pass and all
25:24the issues that uh were in the way have
25:28been uh surmounted and that that that's
25:33being built and you know it's that was a
25:36huge loan. I mean 2.3 billions nothing
25:39to sneeze at and then it required some
25:42other uh additional financing and that's
25:44all in place. Uh I think it's being well
25:48supported by the local governments the
25:51the national governments but that's one
25:5540,000 ton plant that can expand to 80.
25:58It's it's a
26:01beginning. The real open question in
26:05North
26:07America is well there's there's more
26:10than one but how fast do the Exxons and
26:15Ecuadors
26:18move? Riotinto put real money into their
26:22lithium effort. I'm not saying that the
26:25oil companies have aren't willing to put
26:27real money in, but so far it's
26:30been kind of a slow roll as they they
26:34learn and they're not uh it isn't a
26:38Manhattan project speed scenario is
26:42probably the the kindest way to put it.
26:46I don't think a company like Rio is is
26:49capable of a a Manhattan type style or
26:52speed of operation in in all fairness to
26:54them. It's just not their their sort of
26:56MMO.
26:58Oh, and and I I was thrilled that Real
27:01put the capital in, but I've said on my
27:05podcast, I've said it in writing, I've
27:06said it on
27:08X, I don't think they speed this up.
27:13I think
27:15that they have the balance sheet to do
27:18all the projects that they own, but they
27:21don't have the skills yet. And I, you
27:26know,
27:27heard a recent guest um talk
27:31about all the skills that Arcadium had.
27:34Well, let's let's I'll just take it I'll
27:38just personalize it to my experience. I
27:40left FMC Lithium in
27:432012. 10 years later, they were
27:46producing the same amount of
27:48LCEEs as they were when I left. That's
27:51after announcing expansions. That's
27:53after a lot of
27:54rhetoric. And they didn't execute.
28:00Some of it could be laid on
28:03to financial
28:07issues, but that to me was more of an
28:10excuse. And I think Rio's already made a
28:12huge mistake in keeping that management
28:15intact. Um, they didn't get it done as
28:18live. They didn't get it done as
28:21separately as all chem and they didn't
28:24get it done as Arcadium.
28:26So
28:28why do you want to keep the same
28:31management
28:32intact who didn't perform who just had a
28:35portfolio of really good
28:37assets? It and I and I actually said
28:40that to Rio's head of battery metals at
28:43Beimo. I had a meeting with him and
28:45said, "You guys have already made
28:46mistake number one." Didn't they make
28:48Paul Graves the head of CEO of lithium?
28:50He's the CEO of Yeah. Yeah. I I like
28:53Paul. Paul's a nice guy. Yeah. But let's
28:56go. Let's look at the you should judge
28:58people by the
29:00record and
29:03um and I yeah I made the statement when
29:06Arcadium was formed. I made the
29:07statement that it made sense to have
29:09Paul run it because he's a banker and
29:11he'll he'll he'll be able to sell
29:13it and he did that and they should have
29:17thanked him and moved on.
29:20What what did you make of the price tag
29:22at the like to to just speak to that the
29:24financial aspect of of that that deal?
29:31I think Paul's a banker and I think Paul
29:34got a good price. I don't think it
29:37was as bad as some of Riot's other deals
29:41maybe. Uh but I don't want to go too far
29:43down. That's a high bar to to beat.
29:46Well, that's hence the comment.
29:50I I do I I've got to I mean before we
29:53even kind of venture into some of the
29:55grounds of of of the deal landscape and
29:57everything like that. I feel like the
29:59maybe even the most topical um thing to
30:02to talk about is like the last few days
30:04we've just been watching the the lithium
30:06equities in particular here just
30:08absolutely crater. Um I mean to today as
30:11we wake up and we're recording it might
30:12be a bit of a bounce but um it it it
30:15almost seems like there's a really huge
30:16response to to tariffs as they relate to
30:19the lithium mining equities that we have
30:21like Pilgor PLS now they call themselves
30:24not P minerals PLS they're like a dollar
30:2620 20 odd but 26 yesterday at some point
30:29it's just um yeah amazing and mins is I
30:33mean at 31 and 34 cents so I'm I'm still
30:36I'm still hanging in so so is this is
30:39this like is this is this tariffs? Is
30:41this is that what this is? Like what are
30:43the like what's No, I think I think the
30:45the sentiment in lithium is worse in
30:482025 than it was in the dark days of
30:52less than $4,000 a ton that SQM and
30:56Oracle Cobra sold into China at during
30:592020. Um in some cases that wasn't their
31:02average price, but it got that low and
31:04you're still in the 10,000 range now.
31:07But the sentiment is still so
31:10negative. You know, two years ago at
31:14Beimo, every uranium company was talking
31:17about they might have lithium and gold
31:18guys were the same. Now it's the
31:20opposite. Every lithium guy is like,
31:22"Hey, maybe we'll go maybe we'll go for
31:25uranium."
31:26Um, I I don't think I think it's just
31:31the
31:32overall the market's
31:35down and it's easy to be negative
31:41on lithium used to
31:43track
31:45Tesla, you know, several years ago. And
31:48right now, I mean, people that drive
31:51Tesla are getting spit out, their cars
31:52getting spit on at stop lightss because
31:54everybody's mad at Elon. So,
31:57um, right now,
32:01America's, you know, going through a
32:03umoment interesting time. Well, some of
32:05it must like there must be kind of a
32:07part of it that is related to
32:08expectations of like in recessionary
32:10conditions, like where's the
32:11discretionary spend on lithium coming
32:12from? Plus combine it with how much of
32:14the you know the best um demand would it
32:16come from the US and all of a sudden the
32:18tariffs might make those you know
32:19individual projects or growth forecasts
32:21kind of uneconomic for the time being
32:23and then some short-term you know um so
32:26some of it must be a factor of what is a
32:28what is a response to the the tariffs
32:30and kind of recessionary kind of um
32:32conjecture but do you think that in the
32:34long run that kind of just gets washed
32:36out? I I think look what happened today.
32:39The market roared in America. Tariffs
32:42paused
32:43after Yeah. I mean Well, that's just my
32:48my entire my entire point is that
32:53give it 90 days
32:55to 6 months to see what Trump does next.
33:01Uh yeah, I think I don't think lithium's
33:06suffering more than the o other
33:09stocks. I mean, I I sold some Apple at
33:13236 several weeks ago and bought it back
33:17in
33:19180. So, I'm using this time to
33:26adjust my portfolio, shall we say.
33:30If we if we look at the supply side of
33:33the supply demand dynamic, h how do you
33:37currently sort of think about say over
33:40the next kind of three years your your
33:42kind of view versus consensus on on
33:45projects that can get up and running?
33:47Are you are you a bit more kind of
33:49bullish or do you think the consensus is
33:52is a bit lofty? Where do you see that at
33:53the moment, Joe? Well, tell me what you
33:56think consensus is. That that would be
33:58for point one. I think that um let's
34:02look at South
34:04America. Aaron met with great
34:07fanfare shipped 40
34:11tons. How many weeks ago? They're
34:15struggling. People don't like to talk
34:17about that,
34:19but it's hard bringing these projects
34:22on.
34:24and uh
34:27Aramat
34:29wasn't really sure
34:31of how to run their DLE at scale, I
34:34think, and they're they're learning on a
34:36job.
34:39Um people talk love to talk about Zigen
34:42and three Q's. How much have they
34:45produced?
34:47Um, I I think it's it's there's going to
34:50continue to be a struggle in 25 26 from
34:55some of the projects out there. And then
34:56you got the smaller projects that can't
34:59get
35:00financed. Um, I mean, if you go back to
35:02the art of war bit, um, that's another
35:05one of the benefits of misinformation
35:08and misdirection.
35:10as asset prices are go lower, the
35:15Chinese can pick them up cheaper to the
35:17extent that they're allowed to do that
35:18if it doesn't get, you know, you you
35:20take the geopolitics
35:22uh which are are also a factor. But
35:26ultimately, CL is going to pay the price
35:28for for this because they're, you know,
35:31they can't as the market goes from
35:34850,000 when they started this whole
35:36thing with Litoolyte to 2 million, their
35:40ability to use a couple of Leitoolyte
35:44mines to control the narrative is is is
35:47going to be tougher. Although, as I said
35:49earlier, we they've also
35:53identified what projects are economic at
35:55what
35:56prices. And it's really instructive to
35:59see what capacity came off when price
36:01got to 40. What project came off when
36:04price got to 30. You're going to see the
36:07the reverse when if if price goes up.
36:09And I price never should have gotten to
36:1240,000 in my opinion, but um I price
36:17can't stay where it is. Look at the look
36:20at the financials of all the lithium
36:21companies and how many adjustments can
36:25you make to IBIDA to try to make the
36:27story look good.
36:31Depends how creative you are, John.
36:32Yeah, I know a few creative lithium
36:33companies.
36:38wouldn't be the uh the only sector that
36:40chucks in a few adjustments to to EB.
36:41But uh what did you make of the um the
36:44SQM comments? I think about a month ago.
36:47Now they they sort of forecast 25 to be
36:50flattish and that's not what some people
36:53wanted to hear and then they sort of
36:54spoke to a bit of a a pickup. How do you
36:57kind of wait what what those guys kind
37:00of say? What's your view on them?
37:04I don't think price is going to break
37:08out in 2025 either, but if you you look
37:11at the history of SQN, they've always
37:13been very conservative about how they
37:15talked about price and I think that that
37:20continues. Uh, so
37:22I I just I always take the price
37:28forecast
37:29rhetoric with a with a grain of salt,
37:31but I don't I don't disagree with them
37:33either in this this
37:37time. I think there's enough lithium
37:40values rolling around in China that
37:43price doesn't break out. I think it'll
37:46be higher at the end of the year than it
37:47was at the beginning of the year, but I
37:48don't think it I I think that's a small
37:50number. And I think you get your spike,
37:53and I've said this publicly several
37:55times so far this year. I think Q4
37:592026, you'll start to see a little bit
38:01of a
38:03run. Look at the gigawatt hours that are
38:06being
38:07made. Look at the Western rhetoric is
38:11all
38:13about EVs haven't grown as much as some
38:16people expected in the United States.
38:17The United States isn't that big of a
38:19deal right now. in in the EV world
38:23and China continues to go from strength
38:25to strength and their exports are are
38:28growing
38:28and and best
38:31is exceeding everybody's expectations.
38:34So it's it's it's all about the gigawatt
38:37hours or terowatt hours now.
38:42So, so in that kind of subdued
38:44environment, obviously you kind of
38:46mentioned there that the potential for
38:48Chinese given geopolitics to to scoop
38:51up, but we have seen a couple other
38:52deals which I'm keen to to get your take
38:55on. Pilro PLS, a company we know you're
38:59quite supportive of, went to went to
39:01Latin America, they went to Brazil and
39:03and scooped up Latin resources. What
39:07what was your kind of perspective on on
39:09that deal? Did you just go to I thought
39:11it was a good I I'll be there in two
39:13weeks. Two weeks. Gotcha. Yeah. Yeah.
39:15I'll be actually I'll be flying back two
39:17weeks from tonight. Um so
39:21I I like the Latin story. Um Sigma's
39:26done a a surprisingly good job. Uh and I
39:30only say surprisingly because people had
39:32low expectations on Brazil. I mean, if
39:35you look at
39:36the
39:38lithium, the lithium world tends
39:41to adopt change slowly, shall we say,
39:45and uh Brazil's really performed uh
39:49better. And you know, there's there's
39:51multiple projects down there. And I
39:53literally haven't been in Brazil since
39:551996. So, I go to South America a couple
39:59times a year, but the last time I was in
40:02Brazil was to try to uh get the nuclear
40:05ban lifted they had. And we used to have
40:08to get a license every time we sold into
40:10Brazil and it was a cumbersome process.
40:13So, I'm happy to be going back to
40:15Brazil. I think Dale made a really good
40:17decision. I Dale's a very methodical guy
40:20and uh I think some messages were also
40:23being sent there that hey this is it
40:26isn't just WA.
40:28Yeah. Well, that message was clearly
40:30sent when they removed their name from
40:31being Hilbert to PLS but that came
40:34later. But it is it's also a statement
40:36about the you know their isn't it PLS
40:38global? It I I can't remember you're
40:40probably right but um yeah the uh just
40:43emphasizes the point. It's also a
40:45statement about you know their their you
40:47know probable views on on you know
40:49capital intensity and and opex of the
40:51the relative jurisdictions too.
40:54Yes. I think uh the other Brazil is
40:57interesting too because they're likely
40:59to have the full-blown supply chain. You
41:03know, BYD
41:05is very active down there and we'll
41:09we'll see what happens whether whether
41:12they have a full-blown supply chain
41:14before America does. It could happen.
41:20That would be that'd be quite something
41:22to to behold. There there was one more
41:24um bit of bit of insight I wanted to get
41:27from you that was kind of company
41:29specific and it's it's in the um the
41:32sort of West Farmers
41:34SQM joint venture that we see here
41:36because we really struggle to get good
41:38info but we saw on the M&A front rumors
41:41that Indian groups were looking to to
41:44buy a sort of 20% stake off
41:47SQM's portion. What what's your sort of
41:51latest info that you've got on on Mount
41:53Holland and and the refinery that
41:55they're they're doing and any potential
41:57insight on on the deal? I can't really
42:00speak to
42:02um exactly what's going on at Mount
42:04Holland, but I can tell you from uh
42:07talking to some of the larger industrial
42:09companies in India that they have a real
42:12interest in when a company comes and
42:15says we're we're going to spend in the
42:18range of 5 to 15 billion dollars to try
42:21to go across the energy storage system
42:25supply chain. and we to do that to have
42:28confidence we want to
42:30be vertically integrated
42:33um and it's a credible it's a credible
42:35entity and I've talked to multiple
42:37entities in India um I can't speak to
42:41their specific interest in SQM because I
42:43actually told ought to go to Argentina
42:45but
42:47um we we'll see I I think it's
42:50completely plausible and I think SQM got
42:54outside of their knitting
42:56by going to
42:57WA and I think it's been a tough slog
43:02and
43:03um maybe when I'm in Western Australia
43:07in the not too distant future I will I
43:11will get better information but that's
43:15just been
43:16a a tough slog for both West Farmers and
43:20SQ totally totally I mean that it was it
43:24was such an interesting moved basem to
43:25come to to to WA in the hard rock and
43:28and in some ways kind of forced upon
43:29them by the dynamics of operating in in
43:31Chile. They could have gone to
43:32Argentina. They could have. Yeah. Yeah.
43:34Yeah. Yeah. That's a and done what they
43:36know how to do. Valid point for for
43:38sure. Um Yeah. It is funny to look at
43:42that. Although they had they had one
43:43excursion into Argentina that didn't
43:45work out too well and Gang Ven bought
43:46him out. Um, but they I think they would
43:50have had much greater
43:53success figuring out Argentina brine
43:56versus out of brine rather than going to
43:59Hard Rock. And I think uh Mr. Ramos
44:02drank a little bit of the Chris Ellison
44:05Kool-Aid. And um they'll pay the price
44:08for it.
44:12It's a big price to pay that one. was
44:16I didn't say this was a happy story.
44:20Uh
44:22there's not too many happy stories in
44:23the lithium land at the moment. You
44:25think? Um just Yeah, I know you guys
44:27like to pan lithium. It's it's been it's
44:29been tough. But
44:30[Music]
44:32um what
44:35other and I will I will pander to you
44:38Jonas and say commodity has grown
44:4110x in a decade? I I I take the other
44:45side Joe. I I think you know from from
44:48our perspective we're more excited than
44:51we have been in in a long time on on
44:55lithium because it's trading so hard in
44:56the cost curve. I think there's a the
44:58realization though that our assets in
45:01our backyard here in in WA perhaps don't
45:04sit on the cost curve where we
45:06previously might have thought they sit
45:09are uh um yeah is it it's a bit appeal
45:13to kind of swallow for a lot of folks
45:15down here but you know it throws up sort
45:17of opportunities and I guess another
45:19point I was curious to get your take on
45:20is like green bushes it's it's tied up
45:23in a in a gnarly kind of ownership
45:25structure But there comes a point in
45:28time where if you're looking at WA
45:30assets, the ones in our backyard here,
45:33that green bushes is is certainly one of
45:36the better ones there. So, how do you
45:38kind of view that and how do you view
45:39picking out assets that sit low in the
45:42cost curve in a in a uh a commodity or a
45:46specialty chemical as you as you kind of
45:48say when it's really beaten up? Well,
45:51I'm glad we're trying to speak each
45:53other's languages here.
45:55Um, well, Green Bushes is the best
45:58operating hard rock asset in the world.
46:01I mean, it's
46:03it's not what it once was, but it's
46:07still head and
46:10shoulders above the other from a cost
46:13perspective. The problem with green
46:16bushes from my perspective is the
46:17convoluted
46:19ownership and it would be better placed
46:22in one company's hands. That's not the
46:25case. Uh I I got to meet Ivan from IGGO
46:28in Florida in February. Likable guy. I
46:33am, you know, hoping that things turn
46:36around for them. And uh but it's it
46:41first of all having Abal
46:43Marl who hasn't is has zigged when they
46:46should have zagged and zagged when they
46:48should have zigged for the last seven or
46:50eight years. That's tough. Tanchi's got
46:54their own set of
46:57problems and
46:59layering on two failed hydroxide
47:01projects to the world's greatest hard
47:04rock asset just makes
47:07it all the more a sad story
47:11for the lithium industry.
47:17What What does the uh the future sort of
47:19hold for for Alamar? you've you've um
47:22you know been been vocal on on your
47:24thoughts on on a range of dynamics at
47:27play within within the company, but in a
47:30in a downturn in a company with with
47:33debt, the the challenges can be pretty
47:36pretty sort of pressing. How do you
47:37foresee the the next few years playing
47:39out if we sort of stay where we are and
47:42are sort of perhaps plus 20 plus 30%
47:45bound on on lithium prices?
47:48Yeah, I think if you got plus
47:5030% the world would be a lot better
47:53place for Abomar, but Abomar's just made
47:57so many missteps and
48:01they just doing a podcast with them
48:06was which I was surprised they actually
48:08did, but um it was easier to arrange.
48:12I've never had more
48:15meetings to arrange a
48:17podcast than I did with Apple Marl.
48:19Apple Marl's a
48:21is has all the
48:24bureaucracy of a huge oil
48:27company and it's it's a it's a
48:29relatively small company. They hired too
48:32many people. They had VPs like a a bank.
48:38And and I, you know, I I continue to
48:41harp on it because I continue to get
48:43calls from people that leave the
48:44organization that want to bear their
48:47souls and I like to listen to it.
48:54I don't think there's a I think they
48:56need to clean out the leadership and I
48:59think they need a new board and I don't
49:00think that's about to happen. So I it
49:02just you can't have a palywousey board.
49:05You can't pay a guy that performed like
49:07Ken has the kind of money they've been
49:09paying him. It's just it's a travesty as
49:11far as I'm concerned.
49:16But I don't really have feelings about
49:17it.
49:20Yeah. It's it's hard hardressed to to
49:23argue with a lot of those those
49:24perspectives.
49:26No, they have the two two of the best
49:28assets out there.
49:30How can they be where they
49:33are? Lack of good strategy, lack of good
49:39tactics, and lack of good
49:42leadership culminates in pretty pretty
49:45questionable capital allocation. I mean,
49:46how many of their how many of their
49:48growth projects or or everything have
49:50just been like zero revenue generating
49:53decisions?
49:55I felt like I was reading Mad Magazine,
49:59which I'm sure you guys don't know what
50:00that is, but it it was a kind of a Yeah.
50:03Yeah. Mad Magazine kind of says it all.
50:08I when they were going to when they made
50:12the offer for Liontown, I thought this
50:14is straight out of Mad Magazine. I I
50:16don't get it. And that's no projorative
50:19on Liontown. I love the guys at Lion
50:21Town. Um, you know, it's it's tough
50:25times with the way the market is, but um
50:28I'm just saying that
50:31uh Gina Gina benevolently saved Apple
50:35Marl. That's that's probably the biggest
50:38irony of this decade in
50:45lithium. Who would have thought it would
50:47be like that? Well, yeah. Yeah, I mean
50:48this it's been wicked to um for us to
50:50ask you the questions that that we have
50:53about the space at the moment. Joe, go
50:56ahead. Punish me. I It's fine. Right. I
51:00mean, I I echo what Joda says, like, you
51:02know, we're we're we're of the yolk of
51:05certainly being more interested in
51:06commodities that are that are beaten up
51:07than than they are um when they're when
51:10they're flying kind of, you know,
51:12obviously the the interest is far far
51:15less um from from an audience
51:17perspective when commodities are beating
51:18up than when they're flying. But for us
51:20individuals who who look counterylically
51:22then yeah
51:24I am seeing in in what I do I I'm seeing
51:26there's there's a lot more interest now
51:29and I would just you asked a question
51:32about India potentially investing I
51:36think that's happening I think what
51:39Exxon and Ecuador are doing they're not
51:41worried about the vagaries of lithium
51:43price in the next three or four years it
51:44doesn't matter to them
51:47they they can do what they want to do
51:49and and that's the that's the positive
51:51side of the lithium
51:53story. But to be a junior lithium player
51:56right now
51:59is kind of like perpetual
52:05purgatory. The the the saving grace is
52:08that the the juniors flock with a sort
52:10of rear view type mirror, not a not a
52:13forward-looking type outlook. So yeah,
52:17put whatever sort of weight into that as
52:19you will. I' I'd be curious to to hear,
52:22Joe, one thing that we notice given
52:24we're we're both in the podcast uh to,
52:27you know, sort of game to an extent. Um
52:29we we definitely noticed the the
52:31interest in in lithium since we sort of
52:33started two years
52:34ago. Eb and flow, you know, it sort of
52:37was very high 2023 and it sort of trails
52:41off. Is is that a kind of sentiment
52:44gauge the the viewership that you get in
52:46your your podcast? Do you notice that
52:48sort of change substantially over, you
52:52know, because you've done it a lot
52:53longer than we have? Well, I I spare my
52:55audience the need to view me. It's just
52:58my voice. Um, but no, I the it's it's
53:03really funny. I mean, there's only one
53:05country on earth where I don't have a
53:07download, and that's
53:08Bhutan, and that's Spotify stats. 196
53:12countries. Um, I can predict the first
53:1748 hours the podcast is up. Doesn't
53:19matter who I have on, I'm going to hit
53:22this number, this hour, and and all the
53:26way through. Um, I really haven't
53:29noticed
53:31um much of a difference in
53:36um listenership.
53:39Interesting. Yeah, it is. I I have a I
53:44have a loyal following that they just
53:46like to punish themselves every couple
53:48of weeks. I don't know.
53:51There was there was a couple other um
53:53assets and and companies I wanted to get
53:55your your quick takes on. So, we spoke
53:58uh earlier in the week or maybe last
53:59week about um Galan. They uh subtly
54:03announced that they they bounced back an
54:06offer and then latest rumors they're
54:08coming out for a a capital raise. What's
54:10your what's your take on on the asset
54:13and on the uh the kind of strategy?
54:18They have been hamstrung by the market
54:22conditions and I know they have a lot of
54:26disgruntled
54:27shareholders. I understand
54:30um a lot of people bought at at the top
54:35and you are unhappy. But it if you look
54:38at what they're trying to do, it's it's
54:39a tough it's a tough market.
54:43Um I I don't I have a little money in
54:46Galan. I I I'm a little underwater. Not
54:50much because I you know didn't I I
54:54bought it very late. Um but I like I
54:59like JP. You know, I'm very close to
55:01Daniel Jimenez. Uh, I think it's a good
55:04asset and if I was going to sell it, I
55:06certainly wouldn't take the offer they
55:09got, but yeah, moving it
55:14forward is still a challenge.
55:20Yeah. Yeah, for sure. What one of the
55:22other assets was Gulamina and you spoke
55:25in a in a recent podcast about this sort
55:30of not not being the kind of focus in a
55:32sense that that Gangfang is prioritizing
55:35Brian's but this is obviously a
55:38substantial project and we we hear about
55:41it a lot less since the uh you know the
55:46the the since it's not Leo Lithium
55:49anymore. Yeah. In a nutshell,
55:52yeah, I think Gang
55:55Fan as well as they've done has a lot of
55:58challenges because they have
56:02multiple good brine projects,
56:05but Gangfen likes to talk about gang
56:08fence speed and gang fence speed is
56:10certainly true inside China.
56:12gang ben speed slows down marketkedly
56:16outside of China. And I think the
56:18challenge uh they have now is that they
56:22have such a big
56:25portfolio that
56:28uh I think they you know
56:32Golamina I would think based on the
56:36capacities they have and uh the need for
56:41rock that that
56:43Golamina gets gets the attention. But I
56:47would be surprised if they did
56:51additional significant Hard Rock uh
56:54before they get some of the Bryant
56:55assets online. And I mean, just look at
56:58the their uh last quarter announcement.
57:02I mean, it's it's tough times even for
57:05Gang Van.
57:09Fascinating stuff, Joe. appreciate you
57:12uh you making the time and letting us
57:14pick your brain on on every asset under
57:16the sun and uh yeah, letting us sort of
57:19ponder what the West can do about
57:21catching up with with the the sort of
57:24bullet train that China is.
57:27Well, when the bullet train leaves the
57:29station 10 years before the next bullet
57:32train, uh it is going to be hard to
57:35catch up. But uh I I do have a belief
57:40that the US will have a have or North
57:43America will have a supply chain.
57:46Um but it's it's not going to be the
57:49scale of China. It's not you know it's
57:51just it's it's going to be different.
57:53They picked they
57:55picked the energy transition to focus
57:59on and we continued to dither
58:05about battery packs
58:07and you know subsidies
58:11and we
58:13are reaping what we sowed.
58:18We um we'll keep paying attention that's
58:20for sure. you um when we reached out and
58:22asked for an interview, Joe, you said
58:23only if you can ask us a couple of
58:25questions at the end. So, you've got the
58:27floor.
58:31Gentlemen, you've been doing this now
58:32for two years. Two years, give or take.
58:36Yep.
58:39Each of
58:40you, what have you learned about
58:43yourself in the process
58:45of talking to people every day?
58:50and you'll answer that and then I'll ask
58:52you a
58:57followup. It is rapid fire, boys.
59:01Good thing we can edit.
59:06Um I in the process of talking to people
59:08every day, what have I learned about
59:09myself? I reckon I've learned that
59:13uh I can change my mind more than I
59:17thought. I actually thought I was quite
59:18like stubborn and would be very um stuck
59:21in an opinion. But I think when you do
59:23speak to lots of different different
59:25people, different expertise, I yeah, I
59:27do have a capability to to change my
59:30opinion especially when you know I think
59:31the the new person I meet the new
59:33perspective um is is is like you know
59:36they come from a place of logic.
59:40Yeah, it's a good good question, Joe.
59:43the the way I'd sort of answer it is I
59:45think about the I think it's the Dunning
59:47Krueger effect and I think about like
59:48where where you are on on the the range
59:51of sort of knowing something about a
59:54particular kind of subject and kind of
59:57bizarrely I feel like we we learn more
59:59every every day about mining and you
1:00:02know the the gist of it is that you you
1:00:04think you know a whole lot more when
1:00:05you're at the beginning of the journey
1:00:07and you know every day for the last two
1:00:09years we we learn more but I feel like I
1:00:10know less and less and less and there's
1:00:12so many smart people out there that have
1:00:14such sort of nuanced and well thoughtout
1:00:16views on on topics that we sort of dive
1:00:20into for a for a couple of days and yeah
1:00:23I think sort of got to got to stay true
1:00:25to it and think you're you're learning
1:00:26more but it's it's amazing um how much
1:00:30is out there and and the knowledge that
1:00:31people sort of build up like yourself
1:00:33doing something for 20 30 years and yeah
1:00:37to to finish that piece off we're we're
1:00:39pretty grateful that that people do
1:00:40share their their knowledge with
1:00:43What have you learned about asking
1:00:45questions?
1:00:49Say less.
1:00:52Bingo.
1:00:56I'm working on that one still. But yeah,
1:00:58the uh I think it's like anything.
1:01:00Interviewing people is is a skill and
1:01:02you don't get good at it overnight,
1:01:04right? So, you need to just work on it
1:01:06and work on it and work on it and and
1:01:08you hopefully in 10 20 years maybe
1:01:11you'll be okay at it.
1:01:14Yeah. No, I actually
1:01:16think I don't listen to you guys every
1:01:18day, but I I do
1:01:20think you ask generally speaking, you
1:01:24ask good questions and that that is a
1:01:27skill and uh I think I mean it I think
1:01:31you come to it and but I I do think you
1:01:35hit the nail on the head though. It's
1:01:37talking less
1:01:38and listening more is is probably the
1:01:42answer. And that that was really what I
1:01:44had to learn when I started doing this.
1:01:46It's hard when you like to talk, isn't
1:01:50it? It isn't
1:01:56anymore. But yeah, it probably it it
1:02:01probably that's the the big transition.
1:02:04And as a
1:02:07business, what have you found is the
1:02:09biggest challenge.
1:02:20I am loving the silence.
1:02:25Uh the the biggest the biggest challenge
1:02:30is sort of staying staying true to the
1:02:33the kind of mission you you set out for
1:02:37when uh when money gets involved, right?
1:02:40You you start out and we and we start
1:02:42out wanting to be independent and not
1:02:44take money from from mining companies.
1:02:47And
1:02:49like it's not that mining companies have
1:02:52come and offered us big cash, you know,
1:02:54paychecks or anything like that, but you
1:02:57know, it's all the stuff on the edges,
1:02:59you know, and once you start kind of
1:03:02doing this and doing that, you get you
1:03:03get distracted or maybe you get you get
1:03:05kind of sloppy on the fringes. And I
1:03:06think just staying true is the uh the
1:03:10the most important thing. Yeah. And I'
1:03:13I'd kind of build off that. It's just
1:03:16it's focus, I'd say. It's like um yeah,
1:03:19one one thing someone else in media once
1:03:20said to us was it's it's much more
1:03:22important what you say no to than what
1:03:23you say yes to. And you know,
1:03:26remembering to say no very very often is
1:03:30um yeah is a big challenge.
1:03:33Well, when I met you guys
1:03:36um and I asked you what your day jobs
1:03:39were,
1:03:41what did he say? And he said he said,
1:03:43"No, this is what we do."
1:03:48And I thought, "Wow." I I felt like a
1:03:50shit because I was like, "I'm not I
1:03:52didn't I didn't mean it as an insult. I
1:03:54just Yeah, you hadn't been doing it very
1:03:56long. I figured you guys must like have
1:03:58jobs." Yeah. I I don't even know if it
1:04:00was paying the bills completely back
1:04:02then, Joe, but it was um we're all just
1:04:05a bit pro bono. We're all a bit
1:04:06delinquent and thought we'll give it a
1:04:08crack and if it doesn't work, it doesn't
1:04:09work. But um we're still here 2 years
1:04:11later, which is a is a relief. Well,
1:04:14give my regards to Maddie and um the
1:04:17next time I'm in town, I'm coming
1:04:19calling for one of those Money of Mind
1:04:21shirts, please. Yeah, we'll we'd love to
1:04:25have you in the studio. And um you know
1:04:27what I And this is I'm going to invite
1:04:29Dwayne Sparks to be on this podcast with
1:04:32me when I'm in Perth. Call out Dwayne.
1:04:36Make it happen. If anyone Yeah. Yeah, if
1:04:38anyone can make him come, it's it's you,
1:04:39Joe. I um I Yeah, I I'd w we'd we'd all
1:04:44welcome that opportunity, so let's hope
1:04:45it happens.
1:04:47Well, I I I think it will. I have never
1:04:50met him either, but he seems like a
1:04:53swell guy.
1:04:55I think we're going to have to go to
1:04:56Katanning to to meet him. Um because he
1:04:59keeps running away.
1:05:01Well, I'll go wherever. Yeah. I mean,
1:05:03this this is my mission. This is like a
1:05:06a pilgrimage halfway across the earth to
1:05:10me. Dwayne seeking Dwayne Sparks. That
1:05:13can be the name of the episode.
1:05:19All right, guys. Well, I think you're
1:05:21done with me. So, thank you so much,
1:05:23Joe. We're never done with you. U the
1:05:25industry will never be done with you
1:05:26because you have been with it forever.
1:05:28So, thank you so much for for for
1:05:30sharing your insight, your time, your
1:05:31knowledge of the the past, present, and
1:05:33future.
1:05:34Um, we really appreciate it. You will
1:05:36you will have you'll have a mention in
1:05:39my book.
1:05:42Those pesky kids from Perth.
1:05:47Nice alliteration. All
1:05:49right. Cheers, Joe. See you. Thank you
1:05:52very much, Mr. Lithium, for connecting
1:05:55with us back in Australia. Good work,
1:05:57boys. Loved it. Thanks to Joe. It was a
1:06:00uh yeah, a pleasure to catch up with him
1:06:01and and just take stock of of everything
1:06:03in in a market that has been pretty
1:06:04tumultuous over over the last couple
1:06:06years. I see you went podcast for
1:06:08podcast on to you guys at the end. He
1:06:10did. Yeah, he did. The condition of
1:06:12doing the interview, Maddie.
1:06:14We'll extend that big thank you Trev to
1:06:16our awesome partners. Get your tickets
1:06:18for the GRX conference. May I'm going I
1:06:21got to book me tickets after this
1:06:22actually. May 20 to May 22nd in Brizzy.
1:06:25Yeah, mate. Can't wait. The center of
1:06:26tech and innovation. discount codes on
1:06:29the show notes. I chucked a link in post
1:06:30up. Use the code otherwise they'll think
1:06:33we're shit. Uh bloody mentioned in the
1:06:35show MMS and Grounded. We got bloody
1:06:38sandy ground sports C insurance K drill
1:06:41WA Waterboards Quattro
1:06:44KCA Black Diamond Drilling Services and
1:06:47Cross Boundary Energy.
1:06:50Uru information contained in this
1:06:52episode of money of mine is of general
1:06:54nature only and does not take into
1:06:55account the objectives, financial
1:06:57situation or needs of any particular
1:06:59person. Before making any investment
1:07:01decision, you should consult with your
1:07:03financial adviser and consider how
1:07:05appropriate the advice is to your
1:07:07objectives, financial situation and
1:07:09needs.

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