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An Interview With Coleen Rowley (Minneapolis FBI & Whistleblower) — Transcript

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0:00we'll intervene whenever we decide it's
0:02in our national security interest to
0:05intervene and if you don't like it lump
0:08it the problem with America is not that
0:10we go around Maring around the world and
0:12posing ourselves the problem with
0:14America in the last 10 15 years since
0:17the end of the Cold War really in the
0:18last 60 years is that we've been too
0:20slow to get involved I don't know how
0:22many Iraqi civilians were killed but I
0:24can assure you that the number is the
0:26absolute minimal that it's possible uh
0:29in modern Warfare every nation in every
0:33region now has a decision to
0:36make either you with us or you are with
0:40the
0:41terrorists now that land over there is
0:44yours you'll go back to it one day
0:47because your fight will prevail and
0:50you'll have your homes and your mosques
0:52back again because your cause is right
0:55and God is on your
0:58side welcome to the darkened
1:03hour welcome to another episode of the
1:05darkened hour I'm your host Adam
1:08Fitzgerald with me today is Colleen rowy
1:11Colleen has served as a special agent
1:13with the FBI and was assigned to the
1:14omahan Nebraska and Jacks and the
1:16Mississippi divisions and beginning in
1:181984 she spent six years working in the
1:20New York City field office on
1:22investigations involving Italian
1:24organized crime during this time she
1:26served three temporary assignments in
1:28the United States Embassy in Paris and
1:30the Consulate in Montreal in 1990 She
1:32was transferred to the epbi mapus field
1:35office where she became Chief division
1:37coun in 2002 Raleigh wrote a memo to FBI
1:40director Robert Mueller detailing the
1:42mishandling of the intelligence her
1:44office had gathered later that year
1:47testified before the Senate and also
1:49testified before the 911 Commission
1:51about the FBI's pre- 911 lapses due to
1:54its internal organization and
1:56mishandling of information in 2006 she
1:59ran as a Democratic former labor Party
2:01candidate for congress in Minnesota's
2:04second congressional district Colleen
2:07thank you very much for coming on yeah I
2:10hate to start off uh right off the bat
2:12with one minor correction oh please um
2:16but I did not testify to the 911
2:19Commission uh almost no one who was part
2:22of the joint intelligence um committee
2:26inquiry did
2:28testify uh the reason for that was
2:30because they didn't want to duplicate
2:32what the jiy had already done so they
2:36used uh stuff from The Joint
2:38intelligence committee or they chose not
2:41to use for instance uh the 28 pages that
2:45are in the uh joint intelligence
2:46committee Zelo decided not to go into
2:49any of that however for the most part
2:52they were supposed to Not Duplicate what
2:55had already
2:56occurred and so most of the people who
2:59were Witnesses uh certainly the agents
3:02for instance in Minneapolis you know
3:04none of very few people I know were
3:06testified to the to the 911 Commission
3:09per se and the reason for that was they
3:11didn't want to duplicate now I did
3:14testify to one other entity though
3:16besides what uh besides to the Joint
3:19intelligence committee the Senate
3:21Judiciary Committee I was also debriefed
3:25by the Inspector General
3:28investigation in fact my memo led
3:30directly to that Inspector General
3:33investigation uh about the various uh
3:36FBI lapsit uh the three main ones being
3:40one the musawi case um secondly the
3:44Phoenix memo and thirdly the fact that
3:47the FBI was uninformed about the the two
3:50hijackers that had come into California
3:52that the CIA had known about and were
3:55tracking so those three things and it's
3:58about a 400 I I don't remember exactly
4:01the number of pages I reviewed it once
4:04and it's several it's a few hundred
4:06pages long it took a couple of years for
4:08that Inspector General report to come
4:11out and it didn't come out until I want
4:14to say 2ou it finally got released in
4:182000 well it got done in 2004 it didn't
4:22actually get publicly released until
4:272006 the Inspector General report
4:30that went into what how the FBI had
4:32messed up right I have to and or the CIA
4:37right I have to apologize there because
4:38it reminded me of an incident and I
4:40interviewed him was involving Anthony
4:42schaer of the able danger program in
4:45which he gave testimony to the 91
4:48commission when uh Vil zow V visited him
4:51at BAM Air Force Base in Afghanistan yet
4:54they didn't even use the interview in
4:56the 911 Commission so I I just want to
5:00and the other the other big one that was
5:03never used who uh I know very well is is
5:07Bogden jackovic you should try to
5:09interview him sometime he's written an
5:12entire book about this he was the f um
5:16the faa's red team leader that found all
5:20the lapses at the airports and he he was
5:23uh you know testified at length to the
5:26911 Commission officially Etc and they
5:31left it out completely of their final of
5:34their report and of course it's very
5:36embarrassing bogden's uh story is
5:39extremely embarrassing to everyone and
5:41Zelo left that out too yeah it just
5:44seems that this is a consistent history
5:45with the night1 commission itself
5:47exactly um I do have a question for you
5:49though because I live in New York and
5:50this is very interesting for me um when
5:53you worked in the New York City field
5:54office regarding Italian organized crime
5:56were you involved with the Pizza
5:58Connection case because was free was a
6:00prosecutor I think back then right well
6:03you know the the uh the uh organized
6:06crime Strike Force at in I don't know
6:1080
6:1387 was led by Louis free he was the head
6:16of all the prosecutors in that organized
6:19crime Strike Force so yes I knew Louis
6:21free very well from that point also chof
6:25chof was the uh prosecutor on the uh G
6:29Ino case excuse me he he was initially
6:33on one of the family uh Rico
6:36prosecutions but then he was the head of
6:39the commission case and so my RO I was
6:43on the Columbo family uh prosecution and
6:46so uh we had two or three other
6:50prosecutors Aaron Maru Bruce Barett I
6:52still remember their names um and they
6:56were the prosecutors of that family
6:58prose organized CRI crime family
7:00prosecution of the columbos now the
7:03Columbo the the thing that I actually
7:06was another case agent really a stute
7:09case agent that I was like a main
7:11assistant to and we uncovered the labor
7:15racketeering uh predicate that all of
7:18the families were engaged in fixing
7:21prices of of the concrete that went into
7:24Super structure so this began in the 80s
7:27at some point in the early 80s
7:30they were all splitting up the four
7:32families not the bananos because they
7:33had fallen out out of power but already
7:36by that time but the four families were
7:39splitting up all of the superstructure
7:43concrete work amongst about seven major
7:47uh companies so those companies
7:51sometimes you know they were kind of
7:52forced to by the mob and other times
7:55they liked it because they were getting
7:58guaranteed uh it was a price fixing so
8:01they were all in this big conspiracy and
8:03some of the companies for instance the
8:05gambino companies and the uh um geneves
8:10companies liked it they liked it because
8:12they were guaranteed and the other
8:14company that was part of this was was
8:16the concrete supplier so the concrete
8:19supplier in New York was part of this
8:21thing in fact they were the ones with I
8:23actually trans transcribed a
8:25conversation about give the numbers to
8:28and it was one of the heads of the
8:30concrete companies he was the guy fixing
8:32it right so this this very key thing
8:35that I was had a direct roll in the
8:38other agent had started the whole thing
8:40they were they planted microphones in
8:43the car of the district council the
8:47president of the District Council of
8:50laborers in New York was a made Columbo
8:54CAO okay so uh he was a high level and
8:58he was working of course with other
9:00families as well but he was a Columbo
9:02guy his two sons were the locals
9:05presidents of the two locals right okay
9:08their last name was scopo s p and um we
9:13I think his first one of them was Ralph
9:14scopo I believe Ralph scopo So I
9:17listened in and actually transcribed all
9:21of these conversations of scopo with um
9:25with uh concrete companies Concrete
9:28Company people
9:30and they were they were from his first
9:32of all it was his social club then it
9:34was his uh and his home telephone but
9:37eventually it was the cars that they
9:39were meeting in and the cars where they
9:41met in they felt safeer to talk in and
9:44so they were long you know usually about
9:46an hour long and it you know it was like
9:49transcribing was the FW about every
9:51third word was the FW and I did this for
9:55almost two years uh so nothing you ever
9:58see on exciting television shows where
10:01you know you're chasing people and all
10:03that no it's listening in and
10:05transcribing and it was very hard I mean
10:08you practically hurt your hearing uh
10:10because you had to go over it a million
10:12times to perfect the conversation so
10:15that when the jury heard it it was you
10:17know the same conversation they were
10:19listening to very hard to do and
10:22especially in places with like the
10:23social club was really hard because you
10:25had everybody talking at once right and
10:28so that's what I did and that predicate
10:31if there's a show on Netflix now about
10:34the commission cases I don't know if
10:36you've watched it no if you're interest
10:38you should watch I don't remember the
10:39name of it but it's uh a three-part
10:42series and of course uh juliani is in it
10:46he's taking all the credit for things
10:48but also these commission case agents
10:51that I was one like my best friend was
10:53one of the commission case agents and so
10:56they're like some of the heroes of it
10:58and the people planted the bugs Etc and
11:02the labor racketeering predicate is was
11:06actually the strongest part of the
11:09entire case of the commission case now
11:12the Pizza Connection was a a drug case
11:16and that actually I knew a little bit
11:19about it too but a lot of those were
11:21first uh generation Sicilians not the
11:25organized mob banana Columbo geneves
11:29whatever they're they're very different
11:31so actually a guy that lived in New
11:34Jersey just around the block from me was
11:37one of the main uh first targets of the
11:40Pizza Connection and then he later
11:42became a cooperating witness and he
11:44lived right I found out the guy lived
11:45right around the corner for me in New
11:47Jersey kind of scary stuff you know to
11:49be his his kids went to the same ele
11:53elementary school and I figured out oh
11:55my God why you know he know and his wife
11:57said oh you're in the FBI
12:00so I mean it was like I was like I I
12:02thought I should be able to get a
12:03transfer out of that because this guy
12:05lived right around the corner so you you
12:07jump straight from the fire from the New
12:09York uh uh terrorist organized crime
12:12force and you're in Minneapolis now and
12:15during this time uh there was pertinent
12:18data showing radical
12:20fundamentalists
12:22um dur throughout the 1990s but it
12:25wasn't really a big issue Within in say
12:30the global intelligence Community the
12:32FBI New York division actually was
12:34probably one of the better divisions and
12:36miniapolis and Phoenix um however
12:39previous reports given to the FBI by
12:41Al-Qaeda link supporters training at
12:44flight schools which was outlined in Ken
12:45Williams Phoenix memo but it was also
12:49outlined years before that in a
12:51Philippines police report concerning the
12:53interrogation of Abdul hakeim Arad in
12:56the 1995 bka plot about sleeper cells
12:58and inside the United States training at
13:00flight schools now the previous director
13:03uh Lewis free and then later Muller
13:07didn't act on this intelligence and why
13:10do you think that
13:11is you know in hindsight I never knew
13:15how bad Louis free was um when I of
13:18course when I worked in New York and
13:20later on when he was director I you know
13:23I knew he had some faults about certain
13:26things but I never knew how bad he was
13:29in terms of being such a a neocon
13:33Outlook and if you back up to the 1990s
13:37what what what we kind of learned since
13:39that time is free directly seemed to
13:42have squelched a bombing in uh Saudi
13:46Arabia called the Cobar Towers so that
13:50Co I had a I had uh some knowledge of
13:52the Cobar Towers I think it was 96 or 97
13:56that that occurred 96 96 the reason is
14:01one of the 20 21 young US Air Force men
14:07men who died young guy was from
14:10Minnesota and I ended up being the
14:13victim witness uh liaison with his
14:16parents and young wife I think he was
14:19only 21 years old and so Louis free
14:23immediately became a micromanager of
14:26that Cobar towers and now
14:30what I didn't and I kind of should have
14:32I maybe should have re I knew he was a
14:34micromanaging because he would send out
14:36teletypes that I had to personally
14:39convey to the family so I would have to
14:41drive up to this house where this uh the
14:43victims the the whatever and then Al
14:47actually also one other time we actually
14:49all flew to quanico the parents and the
14:52young wife and myself I was like I
14:54accompanied them for a weekend were free
14:57debriefed uh he would would uh you know
15:00his his his uh his pretense was that he
15:04was leveling with the families to the
15:07point where they even had a whole
15:08weekend with highlevel figures Janet
15:11Reno Louis free the department of the
15:15Secretary of Defense actually uh what
15:18was who was it now I forget his name
15:20they all made appearances at this thing
15:23and so the families anyways I found out
15:26later that what I was conveying to the
15:29families from free actually all turn out
15:31to be lies if you read Gareth Porter and
15:34there's a lot of evidence now that the
15:37Cobar Towers was done by Al Qaeda uh you
15:41know look Saudi Arabia had no Saudi
15:45Arabia had no uh willingness to own up
15:49to the fact that El qaa had done
15:51bombings inside Saudi Arabia and that
15:54had killed Americans so they were uh
15:57they were uh covering this all up and in
16:01fact it looks like they they uh executed
16:04people that would have been that would
16:06have been knowledgeable about who really
16:08did it and on Free's last day in office
16:12last day in office he was able uh by
16:14that time a change of uh administrations
16:19he was able to push through these
16:21indictments of
16:23shite um Iran they claim they claim Iran
16:27connected Shiites that who that Saudi
16:30Arabia told free to blame essentially
16:34this was the Saudi people telling free
16:37this is who you blame and and and in
16:40fact the prior Administration said there
16:42was very little evidence for this they
16:44would not do it but then the change of
16:47administrations he was able to push it
16:49through on his very last day and then
16:52proudly crowed to the families how he
16:55had solved the case and this was not the
16:58first time had uh micromanaged things
17:02and screwed it up royally he did the
17:05same thing in the Olympic bombing he
17:07screwed it up royally by
17:09micromanaging I knew little bits of how
17:12this was but only in hindsight did I
17:14realize what a freaking neoc Connie was
17:17and also because in in hindsight it
17:20became so obvious when he became a
17:23lobbyist along with all of the other
17:25neocon people in government for the me
17:28the MU Haden culk that which actually
17:31was on the terrorist list he was
17:32actually at lobus for a terrorist group
17:34the mech and was taking you know
17:37thousands of dollars and you know you
17:39see those things it takes a little while
17:41to put it all together and at the time
17:44I'm really really sorry that I conveyed
17:48all of these misinformation and lies to
17:50the victim's family and just because I
17:53was the goet the victim witness
17:55coordinator I was telling them stuff
17:58that Saudi Arabia want you know wanted
18:00to put out but so Cobar Towers there you
18:04goes Cobar Towers should have been a
18:06wake up and the other thing were the
18:08Embassy bombings too and I think if you
18:10talk to people like Ali sufan even the
18:14coal bombing uh late the very last one
18:17of course right before 911 uh you you
18:20find out that the FBI was being either
18:24duped very much duped by Saudi Arabia uh
18:28and some the agents like sufan and his
18:32bosses in um New York they were the only
18:35Squad that actually was more in tune
18:38with the fact that alqaeda and that Bin
18:41Laden had turned against us even though
18:43he was our he was our man in Afghanistan
18:47along with some of the other mujah hadin
18:50and we were uh we were on that side in
18:53order for these strategic reasons of
18:55brazinski fighting the the Soviet Union
18:58so
18:59along with the Chan terrorist leader but
19:02the but so it was slow to figure out
19:07that your your your assets and your
19:11informant now turn against you and I
19:14think some of that was just you know
19:16that way but also because Louis free was
19:20really solidly sold out to that whole
19:22neocon ideology and and the notion of
19:26he's he's you know part and parcel of
19:29all of this so he's always going to be
19:31slow to wake up about it right you hit
19:33on you hit on a consistent theme I I've
19:35been seeing throughout the last 25 years
19:39is that um when there whenever there's a
19:41terrorist attack and you know any
19:44general historian would know a
19:46researcher would know that most of these
19:48are all wahhabi oriented yet the primary
19:52suspect always seems to be either somewh
19:54from the Shi Community the Hezbollah um
19:58party of God and always a blame toward
20:01either Iran Syria Libya yet all of these
20:07terrorist incidents have a direct
20:09connection to the wahhabi oriented
20:11salapi groups of al-Qaeda and Affiliates
20:14thereof of like Abu bah Haram and it's
20:18unfortunate that uh director lisis free
20:23you know when you speak about the Cobar
20:25Towers he actually had met with the um
20:28uh King fod and also the defense
20:30minister Prince Sultan Ben abdulaziz Al
20:34and basically agreed with them in
20:36getting rid of the suspects before they
20:38could even talk and then it was the
20:40Saudi G who basically dissuaded the
20:43residents not to speak with the FBI
20:45Louis fre shuts down the case and
20:47there's no more connection and he gets
20:49to take all the credit about closing the
20:52case uh but the case was never closed as
20:54you outlined um yeah it's a that that
20:57one is the most egregious uh incident
21:00that I'm aware of and yeah maybe right
21:03at the start when this happens in 96 you
21:06can't fault anybody for not knowing But
21:08as time goes on uh you know as as as why
21:13you know by the time he retires uh in 19
21:17uh right before 911 two months before
21:19911 June of 2000 of of 2001 is when free
21:25retired and uh by that time he you know
21:28he and he's putting out just the
21:31opposite to the families telling them
21:33how you know Saudi Arabia is so
21:35cooperative and all the rest I mean it's
21:37it's absolutely opposite of what we you
21:39later learn about the whole situation
21:42can you know in let's I want to he later
21:45lies about Mech I mean so I find you
21:47find out that you know he he wasn't only
21:51just
21:52incompetent uh and maybe some of it is
21:54just pure incompetence too because he's
21:57the boss and he's got very big head like
22:00all the people when they rise up that
22:02level um but you also find out that you
22:06know he uh is is uh like like outright
22:11not not telling the truth about things
22:14to to just revisit um 1993 World Trade
22:17Center bombing it seemed that New York
22:20again seemed to hit on a notion that it
22:23was more than just a rag tag bunch of
22:25individuals but there was certain a
22:28bigger con connection and very few
22:29agents were in on it one of them was
22:31Frank pelo and he is the only person at
22:34the time who made a connection that this
22:36may be even a bigger connection he
22:38started chasing um khed shik
22:41Muhammad um and he chased him even to
22:44Qatar and there was a big argument
22:46between the CIA and the FBI about trying
22:49to arrest him and he basically escapes
22:52the country because the Prime Minister
22:53Qatar not the Prime Minister the uh
22:56president I forget his name but he
22:58basically warns kich M fleas but it just
23:01so seemed that the FBI was willing to
23:04shut down any type of notion that there
23:06was even a bigger problem regarding Arab
23:09fundamentalists in the early 90s was
23:11that also the case in Minnesota or did
23:13they did they getting were they um aware
23:18that there might have been a bigger or
23:19they just didn't know either well the
23:22the Minnesota agents and again I don't
23:24know how much background they had of
23:28both jinka plot and some of these other
23:30things uh the
23:331993 uh ramsy Yousef and all the rest
23:37I'm not quite sure but I do know that
23:40they were up they did know they were
23:43pretty intelligent about uh the the
23:46background maybe not quite as
23:48intelligent as Ali sufan and others but
23:51and pelo whatever but they were they
23:53were up on it Minnesota had just uh
23:56started its joint terrorism task force a
23:59couple of months before it had only been
24:01up and running for a couple of months
24:03before musawi the the phone call comes
24:06in from the flight schools that there's
24:08a very suspicious student the most
24:10suspicious we've ever seen two two calls
24:13come in simultaneously from
24:15whistleblower uh
24:17instructors and that joint and terrorism
24:20task force had only been in in uh
24:23created a couple of months before the
24:25acting supervisor who was a former uh
24:28Trooper was a very smart astute guy I
24:31don't know how much background he had
24:33and then the they they land on the agent
24:36who goes out and checks it Harry samit
24:38who ends up testifying in the musawi
24:40trial was uh not only in aviation in the
24:44Navy so he already had this background
24:46in piloting and stuff but he also he was
24:49up on intelligence stuff he was very
24:52smart about this in fact he comes into
24:54my office like two days a day or two
24:57after musawi was taken into custody and
25:00he says these are the possible statutes
25:03that I'm you know we're going to seek
25:04this emergency fisis search and the the
25:08the two statutes he had found one was
25:10interference in a in a a Aviation or
25:14something I forget the name of it but
25:15it's in a Federal Federal Aviation
25:18whatever interference sabotage so I mean
25:21those are what MWI ends up charged with
25:24the same two statutes out of 300 some
25:28statutes on the books or more that he
25:31whatever he comes in two days later and
25:33he points to so it's he was very aute
25:36and he of uh knew pretty quickly that
25:39the the tie in was to Bin Laden and
25:42whatever he he knew that that was the
25:44case of course he knows even more after
25:47France comes back within days and says
25:49uh musawi is recruiting for Abu katab
25:53who is uh you know who is this Chetan
25:56terrorist leader now here's the missing
25:59thing and if you haven't checked it out
26:01uh read the Newsweek I think it's
26:04Newsweek article by Philip sheenan S h n
26:09o n former New York Times called the
26:11narrow Miss chance if you have not read
26:15that one and that sheenan did not learn
26:19about this memo in April of
26:222001 entitled Bin Laden and katab are
26:26entwined and going to attack April of
26:302001 you know I don't know our agents
26:33didn't know about that memo obviously
26:36they were trying to say well because
26:38he's recruiting for katab does not mean
26:42he's connected to Al Qaeda you know the
26:45cchan terrorist group is a separate
26:48group right now that memo says they're
26:52entwined and in fact they had been both
26:55fighting uh armed by Char in char
26:58Wilson's War armed and funded by the
27:00United States to fight in Afghanistan
27:03against the Soviet Union and I don't
27:06know what they what what specific
27:08actions they were entwined with but this
27:11this memo really makes all the
27:13difference in the world because this
27:15argument that uh that the argument that
27:19um that uh inv that that comes about is
27:24that the Chetan terrorist group is not a
27:27group that the fisa court would accept
27:30well why AR why aren't they well they
27:33because they were our terrorists I mean
27:35you know this is part of the problem and
27:37this these are some of the things that
27:38are unset when an informant goes south
27:42or a or a proxy terrorist group goes
27:47south the the FBI is always going to be
27:50loed to turn on a dime and say now
27:54they're the you know whatever it takes
27:55you know look at Whitey buer Kates from
27:57for and many many others okay so when
28:00that happens they're not going to be
28:03they're not going to turn on a dime and
28:05say oh oh our informant is the murderer
28:09our proxy group that we funded is now
28:13the terrorist group that's not g to
28:15happen at least it's not going to happen
28:17quickly and so I think that the fact
28:20that uh France comes back and has direct
28:23proof that musawi was recruiting H for
28:26Abu katab
28:28and then the connection to Bin Laden of
28:30course in my memo I write uh I didn't
28:34know I didn't know about the memo in
28:36April of 2001 when I wrote my memo in
28:402002 I didn't know about that or I could
28:43have even been lot stronger I didn't
28:45know and I again I don't think our I
28:47know our agents didn't know about it now
28:49the question is who did know about it
28:52who did know about that April
28:542001 um memo well the seven or eight
28:59assistant
29:00directors uh who It came it was a memo
29:03from Louis free and the reason this memo
29:06became public was because in the mousawi
29:08trial it's an exhibit that April 2001
29:13memo is an an actual exhibit in the
29:16trial and uh and again sheenan didn't
29:19even notice it until much later and so
29:22read his article first read Philip
29:24sheenan because when sheenan goes back
29:26to for instance the people
29:28headquarters who had were fighting with
29:31our agents no we can't do an emergency
29:34search we can't take this this to the
29:36fisa court it's too weak the Chetan
29:39group is not officially a fisa terrorist
29:43group uh you have no real evidence that
29:46it's connected to Bin Laden blah blah
29:48blah all these are and then they watered
29:50down some of the of the um emergency
29:54affidavit the emergency declaration they
29:57watered down some of the wording in it
29:59all these things that they did then to
30:01like I said to th it um but you know I I
30:06would have uh it would be my educated
30:09guess that neither of those two uh
30:13supervisor or the supervisor's boss the
30:15unit Chief or section chief whatever he
30:17was um I I doubt they actually knew
30:21about the April 2001 Nemo it's possible
30:24they knew about it they could have
30:26searched and maybe found it I don't know
30:28if they knew about it or not but the
30:30name on the memo one of the assistant
30:33directors was Michael Rollins rol and he
30:38actually he didn't he acted like he
30:41didn't know about the musawi case for
30:43months and months he finally got trapped
30:47in in a senate um or a a congressional
30:50hearing of some
30:51sort um trying to think of when this was
30:55like the fall of 2001 May
30:58and Rollins is is almost got caught in
31:02perjury he almost got caught lying to
31:04Congress but somebody in Congress knew
31:08that uh that he some he would they they
31:11knew somehow that Rollins knew about the
31:13musawi case and there's a there's a news
31:16article about it I I could never find it
31:18in a million years again but there's a
31:20news article in a mainstream news that
31:22says he was finally forced to admit that
31:25he had been briefed about the musawi
31:28case this this is after a a while that
31:31he pretends he doesn't know about it now
31:34he the his briefing was apparently quite
31:38brief it was an oral briefing in the
31:40hallway type thing and so there's no
31:43like official documentation that he was
31:46briefed but uh and he makes of course he
31:48tries to make light of it you know
31:50something in Minnesota of course I
31:52didn't take it seriously it was nothing
31:54blah blah blah but Rollins was on the
31:59other memo April of 2001 where this
32:03whole thing falls apart that oh you know
32:06uh it's not a it's not a group chians
32:10are not terrorists all of this falls
32:12apart when he also is on the now all of
32:15them claim they don't remember the
32:18memo and this is why after
32:21911 uh you know what is so what is so
32:25compelling here is that you get all of
32:28this shock Doctrine moment that now that
32:31we've been attacked we know that we have
32:33to change everything everything changes
32:37we have to start Mass surveillance
32:39within a couple of weeks uh Hayden turns
32:42on the buttons that begin monitoring you
32:45know
32:45Americans uh all of those secret memos
32:49written by John Yu basically say now we
32:52can do all the illegal things that we
32:54never could before under emergency the
32:57post 911 emergency including torture but
33:01all of these things were done it was it
33:02wasn't just torture it was a whole bunch
33:04of things that John Yu wrote secret
33:06mamals right right after 911 within
33:09dates essentially almost a martial law
33:12theory that it's an emergency and now
33:15martial laws in is in place right so
33:19okay so one of so they go to this
33:22drastic level of saying that we can do
33:25all illegal things now under a form of
33:28Martial law and yet the one thing that
33:32uh that turns out to be the biggest
33:35problem is that officials and I don't
33:38know of any official who will say yes I
33:41read the memo and I can't tell you why
33:45either I can't tell you why I remember
33:47reading the memo I Can't Tell You Why
33:50that I did these things every single one
33:52of them testifies in official inquiries
33:56that they don't at remember the memos
33:59and yet to this day 20 years later I
34:03don't think there's ever been any kind
34:06of very minor bureaucratic fix that they
34:10can at least have a way to find out if
34:14you read the
34:15memo even under jedar Hoover under jedar
34:20Hoover and Clyde Tolson you had Clyde
34:23Tolson had this CT and you had to check
34:26off this was all paper but uh when you
34:29read something or sent something you had
34:32to do a little check off in your
34:34initials your initials by the check off
34:37it's a very rudimentary form of a
34:40tracking mechanism so that later on you
34:44can't go and say I don't remember that
34:46at all but that even like I said after
34:50911 it turns out nobody remembers
34:53anything and and there's never been a
34:56fix of that okay if nobody remembers at
34:59the very least what youve got to do is
35:01get some kind of tracking thing in there
35:04so that people can't whether they saw it
35:06or not that you can actually determine
35:09these things and you can't just say I
35:11don't remember you know it's it's a very
35:14small thing no we went to war killed
35:16millions of people tortured surveillance
35:19all these things and yet to my knowledge
35:22this this little fix that could have
35:24been a mechanism of finding out
35:28what you actually read or knew ahead of
35:31time and and I don't even ever see in
35:34fact I see it Opposite all the time with
35:37in the sonof in the underwear bomber I
35:40see it all the time that there they find
35:43a memo that was written beforehand and
35:46then they say your name is on it it was
35:48to your attention and that person is in
35:52official thinks ah I don't remember I
35:54don't think I ever saw it don't think I
35:56ever saw it never saw it don't remember
35:58and that still is going on right it's
36:00amazing that kind of what's the word
36:03discrepancy it's just it floors me and I
36:06say it in a lot of I say it in in many
36:09many interviews and to this day most
36:12people shrug it's like well well they're
36:15powerful of course if they don't want to
36:17remember they don't have to remember
36:18they're the powerful people and they
36:20don't have if they don't if they don't
36:21think they saw it fine fine and and I'll
36:25even get that from interiew you know
36:27reporters and everything even right off
36:28the bat amazing discrepancy and and that
36:31leads beautifully into the next question
36:33because as we see with the FBI superiors
36:36about
36:37males you're in the Minneapolis Chief
36:41division Council in 2000 and there's
36:43another agency and CIA Alex station
36:47which is a virtual station monitoring
36:49the movements and financial uh
36:52transactions of al-Qaeda and Bin Laden
36:54they come into possession that there's
36:56two Al-Qaeda operatives inside the
36:58United States since khed
36:59alidar Minneapolis is not notified
37:02because the FBI General was never
37:04notified about this fact until August of
37:072001 at the National Security grp the
37:09FBI was suppressed by CIA lead
37:12management such as Tom Wilshire the
37:14deputy uh director of Alex station and
37:17at the time the deputy chief Michael
37:20Shyer who refused to share this
37:22information and
37:23data and Richard ble who took over him
37:26in 1999
37:29what it just seemed that there is a a
37:31lack there's I don't know whether to say
37:33it's malfeasance or something more but I
37:35don't want to imply something else
37:37without evidence but what you just
37:40describe with the FBI it seems that
37:43that's the same thing with the CIA in
37:45regards to oh we're not sharing
37:47information but yet lie about it when
37:49they're investigated by the Senate the
37:51911 Commission in which they say yes we
37:53did share with the FBI but they never
37:55did yeah and the agent uh there were two
37:59or at least two maybe three agents who
38:02wanted to share the information and H
38:06forget his name now rosini I think it's
38:08rosini and Doug Miller that's right yeah
38:10and Ro rosini now admits that he lied to
38:14the Inspector General so the Inspector
38:17General when they do their like I said
38:19my memo led to that uh investigation he
38:23was told he had to lie and so there's an
38:27interview of rosini again here's the
38:29reason for this because there's
38:32priorities the
38:34priorities and of course telling the the
38:37God's truth to the public is the very
38:39lowest uh priority but even official
38:43inquiries of Congress and um and of
38:47Inspector generals are a less priority
38:50than what somebody who's the head of for
38:53instance the CIA or the NSA will tell
38:55you is national security reasons
38:58so when they tell you National Security
39:00trumps the truth to Congress for
39:04instance most people that are part of
39:06the system are going to follow that and
39:09rosini would be the one to ask about
39:11this right because he he is says this in
39:14an interview that he actually thought he
39:17had to lie because of National Security
39:20now here's the difference is that when
39:22you have a brazinski or these people at
39:26the top who are coming com up with or
39:28Louis Frey for that matter who are
39:30coming up with their Notions of National
39:34Security and uh that and the fact that
39:37not telling the truth about things
39:39matters more because of foreign policy
39:44goals so they come up with their foreign
39:47policy goals and
39:48agenda they they conflate those with
39:52National Security so when a brazinski
39:54says we got to do this whatever the
39:57foreign policy goal is conflated with na
40:00you know supporting the Chetan
40:03terrorists well okay well you know
40:05that's not a good thing but they always
40:07have that friend of the Enemy what is it
40:09the enemy the enemy of my enemy is my
40:12friend the enemy of my enemy as my
40:14friend is always the case they use well
40:17Whitey Bulger is a perfect example right
40:19so I like to talk about cases that are
40:21publicly known like that so when he's
40:24found out to be murdering people it's
40:27it's much more important to cover that
40:29up and that wasn't just a couple of
40:31Rogue agents his murders were covered up
40:34for a long years and years and in fact
40:37it looks like Robert Mueller even
40:39probably knew about it and helps cover
40:42it up and the reason is it's a bigger
40:44goal to get information from Whitey buer
40:48on his enemies in the Italian mob than
40:52allowing him to commit murders so you're
40:54you're
40:55prioritizing your goals and when it
40:58comes to foreign policy that trumps
41:01everything it certainly uh trumps
41:03domestic murders for instance you know
41:06so if there's a you know you see this
41:08all the time with these assassinations
41:10that are occurred officials were thored
41:14in in finding the truth about certain uh
41:18ambassadors and and and heads of state
41:21Etc who are assassinated if it conflicts
41:25with the United States who who certain
41:29people decide are the foreign policy
41:32goals and they can flate those foreign
41:35policy goals with National Security so
41:38when you do that you feel perfectly fine
41:41like oh well it's it's the noble lie you
41:44have to do this uh and uh because it's
41:48more important that these goals be met
41:52and you see this all the time it gets
41:54worse and worse and worse because now
41:55eventually if you go down that road of
41:59thinking that the foreign policy goals
42:01Trump everything you finally get into
42:03outright lying to the public all the
42:05time you know making up false flags and
42:08everything else it get it goes worse and
42:10worse and worse but certainly just to in
42:13avoid the embarrassment of all of this
42:16baggage of years and years of covering
42:20up uh elada and Bin Laden because we
42:24were the ones who backed that whole
42:26thing to begin with under brazinski I
42:29think that's a lot of it and and then
42:31again for for little people down the
42:34line who might blurt out actually
42:36innocently blurt out things uh they
42:39don't even know the big picture it's
42:41only the people at the top who actually
42:44have all the dots right like a Rollins
42:46for instance you know the people at the
42:48top are the ones most privy to all of
42:51the dots because first of all they
42:52they're more senior they've been in it
42:54longer so a first office agent hard even
42:57you know basically kind of doesn't even
42:59know as much about it when I was the
43:02when I was conveying uh information to
43:05this Cobar Towers victim family I didn't
43:08know any of this of the bigger picture
43:10about Saudi Arabia I only knew the
43:11things I was being sent to read my my
43:15supervisor again this is a learning
43:17curve that I've had now that I'm you
43:20know 67 and out of the FBI for so long
43:23and and you know as in Daniel Ellsberg
43:25will tell you it takes a long time time
43:27to kind of put this all together but you
43:30know with uh my supervisor my organized
43:33crime supervisor in New York for for
43:36just for one year I had a couple of
43:38other supervisors too but this one
43:40supervisor I had for one year head of
43:42the banano family Squad was Lynn Deo yes
43:47and ly Deo ended up being prosecuted for
43:51you know negligent murder because he was
43:54operating a top cap
43:57boss of the uh banana family Scarpa yeah
44:01Greg Scarpa that's yep Scarpa and just
44:05the same as buer not for a year or two
44:08for like 20 years same as buer this
44:11wasn't a little short thing he was
44:14handling a Scarpa for a couple of
44:16decades and Scarpa was also just like
44:19buer murdering people and there's a
44:22whole 60 minutes where lindao had he
44:25gets off by the skin of his teeth
44:27because of a kind of a technicality and
44:29he has this Sly smile when he's finally
44:33uh interviewed on 60 Minutes you know
44:35basically saying you you folks don't
44:37know what it takes this is what it takes
44:40you have to operate murderers he doesn't
44:42say it outright but he he comes close to
44:46say admitting and this is the same thing
44:49in the inform like I said with foreign
44:51policy trumping it's the same thing with
44:53all of the informants who go south
44:57you're operating top uh Scarpa and
45:00Boulder were top Echelon informants so
45:05they're the most important bosses of
45:08these re of these Rico families they're
45:11the bosses of it and they and the FBI is
45:13operating them can you imagine the
45:15problems of operating the bosses of
45:18organized crime crime families and and
45:21in my whole career there was almost
45:23nobody who ever said hey well should we
45:27really be operating the bosses of the
45:30families the top Echelon or should we
45:33just basically be trying to get info
45:35from lower level people so go back to
45:38what the only person who outed deio who
45:42kind of started seeing these things like
45:45oh God Deo is leaking to Scarpa the same
45:47way Scarpa is leaking to Deo was a first
45:50office agent with only a couple of years
45:52in so he he just naive he's naive he
45:56doesn't understand stand he blurts it
45:57out and I think he he ended up being
46:00destroyed uh this whistleblower on on
46:03Deo but that's the that's what goes on
46:06the whole New York office kellstrom all
46:09these bosses the informant unit all side
46:12with Deo and he gets off by the skin of
46:15his teeth that happens that I always
46:17tell people Boulder and Scarpa they're
46:20publicly know that's why I can you can
46:23talk about them but they're the tip of
46:25the iceberg this kind of thing goes on
46:28all the time hopefully in lesser crimes
46:32than just outright murders like this but
46:34it goes on all the time and the reason
46:37for it is you find yourself on the wrong
46:40side with your goals so your goals in
46:44your agenda eventually uh end up on the
46:47wrong side and you know it takes a long
46:50time to realize no maybe uh the wahabi
46:54proxy forces Maybe we shouldn't be uh
46:58funding and arming them and you know
47:00what they didn't even learn that lesson
47:02because in Syria they went right back to
47:04doing it it's never never been learned
47:05that's right never been learned so
47:07French intelligence later receives word
47:10that Zacharias MWI is inside the United
47:12States and they sent a detailed memo to
47:14the Oklahoma and Minnesota field
47:16officers and by 2001 a serious file has
47:20been secured on
47:21masawi um but it seemed that the CIA
47:24were made aware of masawi at this point
47:27um how how are they not how were they
47:29made aware of him and how long do you
47:31think they were made aware of him why
47:33didn't they inform him of
47:36you so going back you're saying the CIA
47:39knew that musawi was in the country long
47:42before the the the the calls com in from
47:46the flight school to Minneapolis see I
47:49don't know anything about that um
47:53firsthand or any any other way and from
47:57what I knew when the agents went around
48:00our FBI headquarters to the CIA
48:03counterterrorism
48:04Center uh from what I know nobody ever
48:08told anybody that the CIA already knew
48:11about musawi I'm not aware at all that
48:14there was any that the CI people in the
48:17CIA counterterrorism Center e themselves
48:21knew about that or certainly shared it
48:24with our agents that would have changed
48:26it's it I'm sorry to C the reason why
48:28I'm saying that is because when the CIA
48:31was um uh investigating uh this Al qaa
48:35meeting in qu Lumpur in January of 2000
48:37it's alleged that MWI is
48:40there yeah I you know it's possibly was
48:44you know because his his his uh his
48:46associate that eventually links him up
48:49with uh with elada was this suat or
48:52something who is part of the he's the
48:55guy who organized qu that's his business
48:58card that musawi has links him right up
49:00with that so it's definitely possible I
49:02just don't know for sure all I know is
49:05at the time that the disc the argument
49:08with headquarters was going on and even
49:10the calls to CIA now the reason the CIA
49:13counterterrorism Center ends up
49:16producing this little twoos slide uh
49:19briefing to tenant right away you know
49:23that that's because the agents call and
49:25go around FBI headquarters and called
49:28directly to CIA counterterrorism Center
49:31they produce this little thing where
49:33fundamentalist learns to fly whatever
49:36and have six or seven talking bullet
49:38points in there and tenant gets
49:40briefed uh like August 23rd I think
49:44something like that August 23rd or 24th
49:47he's briefed right very quickly maybe
49:50even before that he's briefed very
49:52quickly and on the day of 911 he's
49:55having bref with his mentor in Oklahoma
49:59forget the guy the senator the former
50:00Senator oh that that made tenant what he
50:04was he his career Guru you know he's
50:07having breakfast with him starts I
50:09forget that guy's name that's gonna
50:11bother me because I remember yeah I know
50:14it h but anyway someone runs in and says
50:17a plane has just hit the World Trade
50:20Center and the first thing out of
50:22tenet's mouth that somebody overheard
50:25because it makes makes it into a news
50:27article David Bor what his name is David
50:32Boren okay and because he overhears it
50:35it makes it into a news article tenet
50:38says maybe it's the is it the guy in
50:40Minnesota so that's how and and and that
50:44is actually when you when you talk about
50:46the the U information silos and the fact
50:51that information can't make its way
50:53vertically because of bureaucracy and
50:56pecking order and you can't make calls
50:59uh over one level above you which I
51:03testified to the Senate Judiciary that
51:05as being a main problem nobody at a
51:08lower level is allowed to even make a
51:12call to someone who's more than one rung
51:15above their own level that goes back to
51:17military you know the FBI being a
51:20military thing and if you do try to do
51:23that you get into serious trouble
51:26and I I I I think it was Feinstein at
51:29the time she asked me a question and I
51:31said well there's a pecking order I once
51:34or twice in my career did it I made a
51:37call to a higher level person and you're
51:40you're scared out of your mind to do
51:42that because that is not Kosher in the
51:45FBI to do that it's not Kosher in
51:47probably in any of the agencies but the
51:50the the agents who went around FBI
51:53headquarters people to go to the CIA
51:55countert ter ISM Center they got into
51:58trouble for that you can't do that and
52:02you know if if you uh for instance in
52:04our office um not calling um okay so
52:09there's a there's another lie here the
52:11agent this the agent and his supervisor
52:14are tearing their hair out by the end of
52:16August and we don't have an special
52:19agent in charge so the Minneapolis
52:22offices sa had retired in early August a
52:26few days before that call comes in 10
52:29days I think before the call comes in
52:31from the flight school our special agent
52:34in charge dolman had re had retired to
52:38get a a revolving door job to make more
52:40money so he had he had left and so all
52:43we had was an acting sa so the agents
52:47when they're tearing their hair out his
52:49name was Ray Morrow they go into him and
52:52say you got to make a call you got to
52:54make a call they can't do it they can't
52:56go up of the who they're talking to
52:58already and they're the people they're
53:00talking to are you know basically
53:02thoring it and so he promises he will
53:05moral promises he'll make a call uh I.E
53:09D Rollins I think it would have been D
53:10Rollins or some somebody like that and
53:14that he tells them he made the call and
53:16there's nothing that can be done that
53:18all turns out to be a lie the the deal
53:21is he was afraid to make the call how
53:25can you know people don't understand
53:26that all the big grade FBI that you see
53:29on television shows eim zimis Jr and
53:32you're shaking in your shoes to make a
53:34telephone call and that's exactly what
53:37it is because this bureaucratic
53:40militaristic hierarchy is run on the
53:43operation that you can't make calls up
53:46above a rung below above yourself and
53:49inherently this acting sa is already a
53:53run below who he would have had to call
53:56because that's he's he's not an sa and
53:59it goes on this level I I tried I don't
54:01think Feinstein understood maybe she did
54:03I don't think she understood me when I
54:05said there's a pecking order and you
54:06can't do this I could have called and my
54:10my little mistake here is I should have
54:12picked up my phone and called Spike
54:14Bowman who was who was two rungs ahead
54:17of me right you know I could have called
54:19the the the 14 the uh the assistant
54:23legal person which I didn't do either
54:26and partly because uh at the time you
54:30know first of all you have a certain
54:32amount of trust in their ability to know
54:34all all of these things and I'm trying
54:37to think of why I didn't call him
54:38directly but uh I could have called him
54:41directly uh and argued with him but but
54:45until Spike Bowman who is the head of it
54:48says no there's no probable cause and I
54:50don't know all the facts I don't know I
54:53thought maybe Spike Bowman read it right
54:56turns out Spike Bowman lied too he
54:58didn't read it the Senate Judiciary
55:00Committee uh forced him to own up and
55:03this isn't until
55:062002 you know way later over a year
55:09later Spike Bowman admits he didn't read
55:12it either he didn't read the draft
55:14declaration so at the time I kind of
55:17figured he must have read it no he was
55:19just orally briefed never you know
55:22determined was it a two-minute briefing
55:24now basically the briefing could have
55:26been the guy the headquarters supervisor
55:29says you don't want to go with these
55:31dumb agents in Minnesota right that's
55:33the briefing how what do they know in
55:35Minnesota that could have been the
55:37briefing we don't know what it was they
55:39think they landed on a terrorist and at
55:41the most it connects to the Chans
55:43there's no probable cause right and that
55:45could have been the briefing sure it
55:48yeah so it all goes right back to mswi
55:51because mswi when he enter when he calls
55:54uh the U the flight school one of the
55:57trainers there um you were referring to
56:00him earlier his name was Clarence
56:02Prevost and he actually is talking to
56:04MWI MWI is actually telling him yeah
56:07he's making these like very suspicious
56:09statements about wanting to fly a Boeing
56:11right away even though he's never flown
56:14a pilot or trained in any type of
56:16Airline and he's saying I just want to
56:18learn how to fly not land and he makes
56:20all these statements so he calls the up
56:24so on AUST no no no I'm sorry
56:26does not no preos does not call the FBI
56:32here's what happened Prevost is talking
56:35to other flight instructors at the
56:37school and telling them basically what
56:41you just said this is like my most
56:43suspicious student he tells him them all
56:45these things and they have a little
56:48discussion and and uh they say God
56:50somebody should call the FBI about this
56:53and preos actually apparently either was
56:57too busy or too chicken Pros does not
57:00cough it's uh two other guys um I'll
57:04remember their names here too they they
57:07don't even know and here's here when you
57:09have this kind of dynamic that two
57:12separate flight instructors who are who
57:14are getting the information
57:17secondhand who themselves are
57:19whistleblowers because they're going
57:21against their own flight school they are
57:25all the worried about making a call
57:27because it hurts their flight school and
57:31this is a paying customer they're not
57:33supposed to do this right and so these
57:36two guys don't even know each other is
57:38calling one called to our St Paul
57:41resident agency and one called into
57:43Minneapolis they call within an hour of
57:45each other and so that alone that alone
57:48is is really telling it's very strong
57:51evidence that whatever now when when it
57:53all then the agents go out Prevost is
57:57the actual flight instructor of mousawi
57:59he's the one who has the firstand so
58:01when the Agents come to Prevost that
58:04then he opens up and tells them yes all
58:06these things that you're talking what
58:08makes him suspicious so once they come
58:10to him he then tells them all these
58:13reasons they go back and put this all
58:15they work overtime for a day or two put
58:17it all into a uh an emergency FIS um
58:21request and and then wait for the French
58:23uh first French information that comes
58:25in and send it right in within within a
58:28very short time but pre here's the the
58:31end of the story as what's his name used
58:34to say the end of the story is Prevost
58:36of course becomes the star witness in
58:38the musawi trial and in and maybe even
58:43more or less embellishes to a little bit
58:48uh uh how he was so astute and knew all
58:52of this ahead of time but he's not the
58:54one who made the call and Prevost Harry
58:58samit puts Prevost in for
59:02A5
59:04million
59:06reward and that is huge money I've never
59:09in my life heard he was the star witness
59:13it was a terrorist case headquarters OK
59:16it Pros gets $5
59:19million for testifying after he
59:22testifies in the musawi probably by the
59:24way told he was is going to get it too
59:27so this is most in most Witnesses
59:30cooperating Witnesses know they're going
59:32to be paid afterwards which is already a
59:35problem for justice systems by the way
59:37because if you know you're GNA be paid
59:40it will bias your testimony sure
59:43especially $5 million but I don't know
59:45that for a fact I'm just surmising
59:47because I know it's the standard well
59:50were the two men's name Hugh Sims and
59:52Tim Nelson yes and so Nelson and Sims
59:57yeah Nelson and Sims uh see that he gets
1:00:01five million and they're iate they got
1:00:04nothing stiff and if if they hadn't
1:00:06called who knows what would have
1:00:08happened and so then they make a stink
1:00:11about it and FBI headquarters gives them
1:00:14up I think they actually give one of
1:00:16them 5,000 or 10,000 and the other guy
1:00:21gets a couple thousand I mean incredible
1:00:24right they get they get stiffed and they
1:00:26they chuckle about it you know in a way
1:00:28I've had conversation with them they
1:00:30were when they when uh when this first
1:00:33came out about the flight school the uh
1:00:38Jessie ventur was governor at the time
1:00:41and he wanted to give an award uh they
1:00:44wanted to give an award when again this
1:00:46was known that there were white school
1:00:48whistleblowers who who started this
1:00:50whatever and this is after mwi's already
1:00:53charged but before the trial but before
1:00:56the trial and and I was on the phone
1:00:59even with Jessie Ventura's office and
1:01:01and nixed it they were that these two
1:01:04guys were not to get any award until
1:01:06after the trial was over because it can
1:01:09impact the trial you can't give money
1:01:12and awards to to people who could
1:01:15potentially be Witnesses and so we had
1:01:17to tell Ventura's office that they were
1:01:19not to give any recognition to the two
1:01:22flight school then later on the other
1:01:25guy who becomes you know the witness be
1:01:27becomes gets five million and they get
1:01:29nothing so this this is actually some
1:01:32news articles too um the uh Star Tribune
1:01:36reporter uh Greg Gordon wrote a couple
1:01:39an article about this whole thing and it
1:01:41was it's egregious but it hap this kind
1:01:43of stuff happens all the time but not
1:01:46what doesn't happen all the time is $5
1:01:48million sure uh inent a ward for a
1:01:52witness I have to get I have to give
1:01:54myself a convenient excuse
1:01:56is that sometimes I I I noticed this
1:01:58myself like I'll mix the names up and
1:02:01say like with the example Prevost um
1:02:04making the call meanwhile was the other
1:02:06two guys I just named and this seems to
1:02:09be like I think it's because of my old
1:02:11age I'm getting there I'm 51 so I just
1:02:14want to make that excuse myself just say
1:02:16it's all plain ignorance um but however
1:02:20uh you bring up uh when it comes to M
1:02:22too on August 16 2001 it was Harry samon
1:02:26John whis and Dave rap they drive to the
1:02:28resident in where mswi and um associ I
1:02:33think just whis and samic I'm not sure
1:02:36if rap was with him really um yeah they
1:02:39they drive to the residents in and he's
1:02:42MWI is actually with uh Hussein alus and
1:02:46they separate the two and they question
1:02:47them and MWI says to I don't know who he
1:02:50says this to but uh Aus tells somebody
1:02:53he says rwi believes it's acceptable to
1:02:56kill civilians who harm Muslims and
1:02:58proves martys and they find in the in
1:03:01the hotel room there's a there's a
1:03:02laptop there's a martydom will in our
1:03:05authors however is a big question
1:03:08technical question for you they can't
1:03:10expect they can't expect these items
1:03:12because they need a fisa war can you
1:03:15tell my audience what is a fisa
1:03:18war the after the church committee with
1:03:21all of the abuses under Hoover and coel
1:03:24pro where up till that point uh the FBI
1:03:29of course is counterintelligence and
1:03:32criminal um so the Fourth Amendment um
1:03:35which protects people's rights in a
1:03:37criminal case does not protect your
1:03:40rights in an intelligence matter so up
1:03:44until that point Hoover could under the
1:03:46aaces of National Security go around the
1:03:49Fourth Amendment if he said it was
1:03:52National Security even domestic
1:03:54extremism like
1:03:56um J like Martin Luther King um he
1:04:00didn't need to really have very much
1:04:03evidence for those types of things you
1:04:05know they might write up a little thing
1:04:06but they didn't have to have they didn't
1:04:08have any formal mechanism Hoover could
1:04:10do all of that and it really wasn't you
1:04:13know you can say was it illegal then but
1:04:16the courts had not recognized this as
1:04:17being illegal really there were court
1:04:21cases Supreme Court cases that had
1:04:23started to make this um legal Doctrine
1:04:26about expectation of privacy that might
1:04:29have you could say oh well it was
1:04:31already illegal people have that debate
1:04:33chicken or egg you know but bottom line
1:04:34is Hoover did it after the after these
1:04:37things were came out in the church
1:04:39committee they had a compromise and in
1:04:4378 they passed the fisa law because they
1:04:45said well they can't make it as hard as
1:04:48having to have probable cause of a crime
1:04:51so you have to have a slightly different
1:04:53probable cause and that will allow you
1:04:57to go to a secret court so it will never
1:05:00come out publicly it will all remain
1:05:03secret
1:05:05forever and uh so this fisa compromise
1:05:08went into place in 78 there was a woman
1:05:11at the Department of Justice Mary Lon
1:05:15God I remember some names Mary lton who
1:05:19was the head of
1:05:21OIP which handled fisa warrant
1:05:26and so when a lot of cases are
1:05:30combinations the musawi case is a
1:05:33perfect example is it a crime to
1:05:36sabotage a federal
1:05:38aircraft is it also could be an
1:05:41intelligence matter if you're recruiting
1:05:43for the chians ETC well it's both and
1:05:46actually a lot of them are both so they
1:05:49call they came up with this Doctrine oh
1:05:51by the way Mary lton uh comes up with a
1:05:54system in her head of trying to keep the
1:05:58Fourth Amendment from being abused so
1:06:02you're trying to keep PE the FBI from
1:06:05having an easy way like Hoover an easy
1:06:09way around the fourth amendment
1:06:11protection of people's expectation of
1:06:14privacy that you have to have probable
1:06:16cause under the Fourth Amendment you're
1:06:19you're so she is coming up with a way to
1:06:21do that protect people's rights the
1:06:23constitutional rights and
1:06:26still uh effectively have a level of
1:06:29information and even sometimes sharing
1:06:32that
1:06:33information now Mary lton does this for
1:06:36years and years but she and she was
1:06:38still relatively young I think she was
1:06:40in her 50s she ends up having a back
1:06:43surgery and dies unexpectedly young and
1:06:47when she died in the early 90s around 92
1:06:51or so she dies nine of her success
1:06:55cessors can figure out what this system
1:07:00of what came to be known as the wall a
1:07:04wall was to separate intelligence so
1:07:07that the FBI didn't abuse the
1:07:09Constitution and and and was still able
1:07:12to do its job whatever so Jamie gorick
1:07:16writes a memo o her successor writes a
1:07:19memo there end up to be all these legal
1:07:22memos written that are all mutually
1:07:26contradictory and you know an agent
1:07:29trying to do this job afterwards I would
1:07:32go to Legal counsil uh conferences and
1:07:35especially the New York office
1:07:38especially the New York FBI office was
1:07:40running into all kinds of problems
1:07:42because that that guy my counterpart in
1:07:45New York or counterparts would raise
1:07:47their hands and they would say you say
1:07:49in this memo to do it this way and you
1:07:51say in this memo that we have to share
1:07:54criminal information with do J but they
1:07:56were all mutually one was on secrecy now
1:08:00nobody uh wanted to this was like nobody
1:08:03wanted to touch us with a 10-foot pole
1:08:05headquarters I'm I'm talking about
1:08:06headquarters did not want to touch us
1:08:08with a 10- foot pole probably because
1:08:11there's no good answer to it so what
1:08:14we've come up with after 911 by the way
1:08:16has been a lot of of of uh violations of
1:08:20the Fourth Amendment okay so there's
1:08:23been now it went from being afraid
1:08:27afraid to share uh information that came
1:08:30up in an intelligence case with a
1:08:32criminal investigation beforehand now it
1:08:35went the opposite way now there's no
1:08:37wall at all and so now you do have the
1:08:41abuses and potential abuses of the
1:08:43Fourth Amendment it was just went and
1:08:45maybe that's why the smarter people at
1:08:47headquarters again after this death of
1:08:50Mary lton she was doing fine by all
1:08:52those years from 78 to '92 it was not an
1:08:56issue or a problem after she died they
1:08:59didn't know what the heck to do they
1:09:00wrote all these contradictory memos
1:09:02mutually contradictory nobody has told
1:09:05the truth about that to this I mean
1:09:07maybe somebody has but I don't think so
1:09:09because you know what that makes us look
1:09:11like mud too it means that for for for
1:09:1510 years uh people either didn't
1:09:18understand or like a Jamie gorlic or
1:09:21they they did their best but they didn't
1:09:23want to touch it with a 10 foot pole by
1:09:25by the way so um so you you said what is
1:09:29a fisa well the problem with this is
1:09:33that they were so
1:09:34afraid they they they came up with all
1:09:38of these quote unquote procedures not to
1:09:41violate the wall before
1:09:45911 and one of these was that you had to
1:09:48do all this checking to ensure that
1:09:51there was no criminal investigation
1:09:53already opened and that you were see
1:09:55they were just going
1:09:57fisa Route because it was easier and it
1:10:00was a way around and they'd say it
1:10:03didn't pass the smell test one
1:10:06supervisor at headquarters prior to 911
1:10:10uh last name was Resnik there are
1:10:12articles about this got into trouble
1:10:15with the fisac cour he got reamed out
1:10:18told never appear before us ever again
1:10:21because you are violating the fourth
1:10:24amendment by not do doing this these
1:10:26procedures and this checking and that
1:10:28actually has an impact then on all of
1:10:30his successors at on 911 because they
1:10:34know that their predecessor got into
1:10:37huge trouble with the fisac court and
1:10:40and that's part of it so this Emer fisa
1:10:43fisa usually would take at least a month
1:10:46or two if it's an ordinary fisa they
1:10:50would have to really dot the eyes cross
1:10:52the teas um there was a there's a debate
1:10:55about whether the fisa court merely
1:10:57robber stamped everything brought to it
1:11:00because they had only turned down one or
1:11:02something before 911 they had never
1:11:04hardly ever turned him down but then the
1:11:07free free Louis free side would say
1:11:10that's because they're so perfectly done
1:11:13we and and doj would say this as well
1:11:16they're all so perfect eyes dotted teeth
1:11:19crossed that there's never been a
1:11:21problem with with getting them past the
1:11:22fisa cour that's their argument the
1:11:24other argument is that the fisa judges
1:11:27don't know exactly the facts of anything
1:11:30you see this with the Carter page the
1:11:32the the the judges don't have any way of
1:11:34knowing the truth of these allegations
1:11:37that are in a fisa declaration and they
1:11:39just rubber stamp so there's two
1:11:40different thoughts on this and I think
1:11:43it's probably both I think before 9911
1:11:47that actually they were done very the
1:11:49ordinary ones were done super super well
1:11:52they took a couple of three months now
1:11:54the agents were so worried they didn't
1:11:57think they had a couple three months so
1:12:00that's that's why they sent it in as an
1:12:02emergency to be done right away they
1:12:04tried to make it as urgent and almost no
1:12:08I don't know the numbers of emergency
1:12:11fe uh warrants that were approved it was
1:12:15very small so uh Playing devil's
1:12:19advocate on behalf of FBI headquarters
1:12:22they would have had to go out on the
1:12:24limb to say this is an emergency fisa
1:12:27because I don't think there were very
1:12:29many even though our agents knew it was
1:12:31an emergency and a lot of reasons uh but
1:12:35there was hardly any and then you couple
1:12:37it with the problem that Resnik had been
1:12:40by the way that was that was the former
1:12:42head of the FIS of Court Royce Lamberth
1:12:44he's another piece of work he flipflops
1:12:47all the time you know he's he's
1:12:49partially to blame for this also because
1:12:52he's the one and this Resnik thing was
1:12:54all bog BS [ __ ] they should never have
1:12:58you know those procedures were all kind
1:13:01of stupid and whatever uh but anyway
1:13:04Royce Lamberth you know Bears some blame
1:13:07and then he goes completely opposite the
1:13:09other way afterwards too sure now
1:13:12there's a huge now there's a big
1:13:13question here because I think this is
1:13:15where the dividing line came in between
1:13:17the agents and the supervisor Minnesota
1:13:19was that agent samit posits that both
1:13:22musawi and alatas were conspiring to
1:13:25violate Title 18 of the US statutes
1:13:27relating to terrorism destruction of us
1:13:30facilities now the memo is sent to the
1:13:32radical fundamentalist unit uh led by
1:13:35Mike Maly and both Maly and Rita Flack
1:13:39then send a request to the National
1:13:41Security Law unit Mar Marian [ __ ] Bowen
1:13:45however in the memo mpy had edited the
1:13:48request in which the memo was now an
1:13:51immigration issue not a criminal issue
1:13:53and edited out was mwi's link to
1:13:56al-Qaeda in Cheta under Ian
1:14:00katab two two po question why was the
1:14:03memo edited and what was Dave frasca's
1:14:07Rollings yeah I don't know ex frasa was
1:14:10and Malt B were were in it together
1:14:13totally as far as I know they didn't
1:14:14disagree about anything they were you
1:14:17know frasa was taking malt beside on all
1:14:20this um yeah they they definitely
1:14:22changed wording and edit things that
1:14:26made the agents very mad they watered it
1:14:28down they not only watered down the
1:14:30emergency fisa request they also watered
1:14:35down the warning to the FAA that's very
1:14:38critical they also watered that down now
1:14:42samit was so concerned that he tried
1:14:46locally to brief the local F FAA with
1:14:50the original strong
1:14:52warning that because he knew that FBI
1:14:55headquarters of course the people here
1:14:56were the same things you know they
1:14:58covered up too the local FAA like who
1:15:00are we we are we're not going to do
1:15:02anything and the the biggest way to
1:15:04prevented 911 was simply if you combine
1:15:07Bo bog and jovic's information along
1:15:11with everything that was happening was
1:15:12to shut the to firm the lock the the
1:15:16cockpit doors as soon as you lock the
1:15:18cockpit doors it makes the whole plot go
1:15:21you know Up and Smoke they can't get
1:15:22into the cockpit and when I I got asked
1:15:25I got grilled whenever the the
1:15:27debriefers by the way both the jiy ones
1:15:31and the inspector general ones that
1:15:33debriefed me and FBI headquarters in the
1:15:36heart of the administration and the
1:15:39public affairs that were saying the
1:15:41exact opposite with minders in the
1:15:44interview uh I had minders in all these
1:15:47interviews even with people that had top
1:15:50security clearances so all of the people
1:15:53on the jiy the staff on the jiy I'm
1:15:56sorry I'm digressing here so bring me
1:15:58back but all of the people on the jiy
1:16:01had top secret clearance because they
1:16:03were former FBI former CIA former Secret
1:16:07Service that's only people they hired
1:16:09about 30 Stafford and they were all
1:16:11people that came out of federal agencies
1:16:13with top secret clearances I still had
1:16:16an FBI minder in my interview in case I
1:16:20would say something that that hurt the
1:16:23FBI and this is with the the the formal
1:16:25joint intelligence committee same thing
1:16:27with the Inspector General okay so you
1:16:30know to be brave and tell them what you
1:16:33know you can't do this this is why
1:16:34rosini uh you know partially you should
1:16:37ask him directly but you know why he
1:16:40lies because he knows that people will
1:16:41know exactly what he tells even though
1:16:44it has nothing to do with with the okay
1:16:47so I got off base here on
1:16:50uh yeah they edit they edited the
1:16:52information regarding mwi's link to a
1:16:55and J you right so so uh shutting the
1:17:01cockpit doors is the number oh so when I
1:17:03was in these things when they get to the
1:17:06end of you know I would say go through
1:17:08the story what I knew and stuff uh they
1:17:11would say but
1:17:12colen there was no way to have prevented
1:17:16911 how I am
1:17:19paraphrasing because they wouldn't say
1:17:21it precisely in this leading of a way
1:17:24but this is what they were saying to me
1:17:27and this came up every time and it would
1:17:29be towards the end they would say but
1:17:32you know how would
1:17:35you have how would you have prevented
1:17:4191 it you know how in the heck could
1:17:44this have been been prevented and so
1:17:46then I would have to say well yeah yeah
1:17:49it does take a while once the search is
1:17:51author once the search occurs to put it
1:17:54with Malaysia and quala lur and suat to
1:17:57get the fingerprint of Ramsey Ben Al
1:17:59sheep yes that takes a while but you
1:18:02never know if things could have been uh
1:18:04speeded up it turns out there are
1:18:06theories of how it could have been sped
1:18:08up Greg Gordon wrote a whole article
1:18:10about how it could have been sped up Etc
1:18:12so I'd say well who knows yes I
1:18:15understand that this the actual search
1:18:17it doesn't really link up with Ramsey
1:18:20Ben El for after 911 so even if you
1:18:24would have got got the authority on
1:18:26August 24th the time just runs out okay
1:18:30so then but I said but what if somebody
1:18:32then put two and two with the Phoenix
1:18:35memo and I said the final thing is why
1:18:38would they not have with all of the sits
1:18:40known just tell the FAA the Phoenix memo
1:18:45knowledge that musawi is in Flight
1:18:47School tell the FAA in stronger words to
1:18:50shut the doors of the cockpits and then
1:18:53they kind of looked at
1:18:55so this is this this would be what I'd
1:18:57go through and and by the way I said if
1:18:59you would have learned of the Phoenix
1:19:00memo you know if our agents would have
1:19:02known about it it that would have
1:19:04changed everything alone but all of
1:19:07these information silos where nobody
1:19:09knows and again there's the Phoenix memo
1:19:12there's the hijackers in California and
1:19:14nobody and the memos that nobody claims
1:19:17they ever read afterwards when you put
1:19:19it all together there's there's plenty
1:19:22for people to at least have and and
1:19:24nobody would have watered down that FAA
1:19:26warning to them to shut the Copic doors
1:19:29Etc and then yeah they kind of like oh
1:19:32huh huh and they'd write something down
1:19:34in their notes but the the
1:19:37reluctance to take any responsibility
1:19:41for something as horrible as killing
1:19:443,000 people like this is is is it's
1:19:48just a natural human nature and
1:19:51everybody who's part of an organization
1:19:53is not going to want to own up it's just
1:19:55like the Catholic priesthood it took 20
1:19:5830 years for anybody in that hierarchy
1:20:01to ever admit oh my God we had some bad
1:20:05priests that were abusing CH children
1:20:07the first whistleblower was
1:20:101985 on the Catholic priesthood all
1:20:13covered up for year and most of the
1:20:15people who covered it up were not bad
1:20:18themselves but they C you can't own up
1:20:21to bad things you just can't that's part
1:20:24of
1:20:25I know I would say this to Liberal I a
1:20:28lot of liberals will say oh I would have
1:20:31I would have not a person I have ever
1:20:34met in my life I don't care how saintly
1:20:38or good they are what have ever ever
1:20:42like that like that first office agent
1:20:44who said oh my supervisor is operating a
1:20:46murderer you know what it is one in a
1:20:49million person and half the time most of
1:20:53the whistleblowers I know
1:20:55it's
1:20:56naivity like a Thomas Drake uh whatever
1:20:59it's naivity that you think or or even
1:21:03my cover my Time Person cover with
1:21:06Sharon Watkins Cynthia Cooper no one
1:21:09would do this if they knew what's gonna
1:21:12result for them they are naive enough to
1:21:15believe oh the system is still good
1:21:17enough if I get the truth out we I
1:21:20thought the same thing I never thought I
1:21:22would be fired they were talking about
1:21:24firing me a day after my first memo in
1:21:28in headquarters and I went whoa I was
1:21:31tell I was talking to Top Secret my memo
1:21:34went to Feinstein and Shelby who are top
1:21:37secret how the heck could I be fired for
1:21:40you know leaking and stuff I can't be I
1:21:43could not understand that because I was
1:21:45too naive but you know what that's our
1:21:47system is really and you know what as
1:21:50bad as it was 2001 it's far far worse
1:21:53now far far
1:21:56you all right at 911 happens and you
1:22:00become one of the very first people to
1:22:02speak out against malens in the highest
1:22:05levels you ended up writing a paper to
1:22:08FBI director Robert Mueller a bold move
1:22:11documenting how Personnel mishandled
1:22:13information regarding to 911 um and of
1:22:17course to zachar masawi what did you
1:22:19write what tell us what you wrote to and
1:22:21and by the way I didn't even know some
1:22:23of the worst parts of it I didn't know
1:22:25about I didn't know everything about the
1:22:27hijackers that the CIA knew about The
1:22:29Quon po I did not know about these early
1:22:32memos written months before that the
1:22:34Chan terrorist group was was aligned
1:22:38with Bin Laden there there's a lot I
1:22:40didn't even know I just knew that I knew
1:22:42this part about the that that our
1:22:44headquarters was lying about the fact
1:22:47that there was no probable cause and you
1:22:49know they weren't even owning up to the
1:22:51problems of the wall at the time they
1:22:54weren't it was all completely they what
1:22:57what happens is the cover up really went
1:22:59too far and so even somebody at the
1:23:02lower level could see that oh this isn't
1:23:05true and Mueller who had only been FBI
1:23:08director for one week before 911 he went
1:23:11in front of the cameras for a solid
1:23:14month or two months and said we didn't
1:23:16know any information that could have
1:23:18prevented 911 well that actually went
1:23:21way too far right you know and I I
1:23:23called up again naive naive at the time
1:23:26the first time he went before the
1:23:28cameras publicly after 911 and said that
1:23:31I called again at that point I'm making
1:23:34calls I'm not even worried about uh the
1:23:37pecking order I was making calls in into
1:23:39his office and saying please warn him
1:23:42not to say that anymore there's a
1:23:44there's all kinds of stuff there's I
1:23:45don't know if I knew about the Phoenix
1:23:47memo I said here we have a terrorist
1:23:49every time I talked to somebody after
1:23:51911 nobody knew about an a terrorist
1:23:54suspect suspect who was under arrest in
1:23:56August of 2001 we had explained this
1:23:58over and over and and there was a solid
1:24:01cover up solid cover up uh something
1:24:05that hasn't really been publicly known
1:24:08is that headquarters organized a uh what
1:24:12I what best characterized as this is our
1:24:17story and we're sticking to it meeting
1:24:20after 911 it was on the FBI um
1:24:24headquarters meeting called in the
1:24:26Minneapolis office on Halloween of 2001
1:24:30and initially they were going to have so
1:24:32Sam it I don't know who his supervisor
1:24:34I'm not sure who went to it two or three
1:24:36agents went to it his acting supervisor
1:24:39I think I'm not sure they all they went
1:24:40to this meeting where it basically was
1:24:43headquarters trying to tell the the
1:24:45Minneapolis office to shut up and uh
1:24:49before this because this wasn't known at
1:24:52all and and our top levels were lying
1:24:56their heads off including
1:24:58Mueller because Mueller by by that time
1:25:00he knew he knew what was known um and
1:25:04Mueller has a history of line about he's
1:25:06not any golden guy that you put up like
1:25:08the Russia gate on the pedestal he maybe
1:25:11not as quite as bad as free but he was a
1:25:13he lied to um anyway uh they had this
1:25:18meeting and I called it this is our
1:25:20story and we're sticking to it and that
1:25:23that meeting the the Minneapolis office
1:25:26was allowed to say here's what we knew
1:25:28blah blah blah they kind of sat there
1:25:30like this I didn't go to this meeting I
1:25:32was not invited but initially they were
1:25:35going to have the meeting with the
1:25:36Phoenix office and the Minneapolis
1:25:40office together and I think somebody at
1:25:43headquarters realized well we can't have
1:25:45Williams coming in with samon because
1:25:48they will be pretty strong if they're
1:25:51together right so they separated they
1:25:54had the Phoenix office come in
1:25:56separately obviously Williams and you
1:25:59know telling him this is what we're
1:26:01saying yeah you know this is our story
1:26:03and we're sticking to it that there's no
1:26:05way we could have possibly you know and
1:26:08they and again this is done in a very
1:26:10smooth way you don't have to say these
1:26:13words per se because everybody is
1:26:17everybody knows what's expected you
1:26:19don't have to give explicit orders you
1:26:22know you know from the the the the wind
1:26:24blowing which way it's going uh but that
1:26:27there was these meetings and then at
1:26:30shortly after those meetings there was a
1:26:32timeline that the legal councils began
1:26:36to prepare this timeline and they knew
1:26:39that at a certain point cheni would
1:26:42would have to give in to having some
1:26:43official inquiry about 911 I think they
1:26:46started in November December preparing
1:26:49this timeline and the timeline was
1:26:51skewed the timeline was skewed to their
1:26:54narrative that there was nothing that
1:26:55could be done there was no probable
1:26:57cause you know their that was their
1:26:59their their narrative and so at one
1:27:02point I would get copied on on the
1:27:04timeline as it progressed and at one
1:27:07point I saw that they were leaving out
1:27:10some some key facts one of the facts was
1:27:13that I was on the phone where I had
1:27:16personal involvement and the one thing
1:27:18that I had personal involvement was I
1:27:20was on the phone with uh with Maltby on
1:27:24911 on the day of 911 I'm on the phone
1:27:26with him and he says you guys can't do
1:27:28anything you can't go seek a a criminal
1:27:31warrant you you don't know anything uh
1:27:34your office is just one office and if
1:27:36you do something like that you could
1:27:38screw it this is on 911 itself and uh
1:27:42you you might screw it up for somebody
1:27:44else and I say well you know at this
1:27:47point it would have to be the biggest
1:27:49coincidence in the world if this if the
1:27:51musawi case was not connected to the New
1:27:54York what's happening in New York and he
1:27:56comes back and says that's probably what
1:28:00it is just a big
1:28:02coincidence so I'm hearing from this guy
1:28:06on okay so that's kind of a big little
1:28:08they had this they had lots of details
1:28:10this timeline was all very detailed well
1:28:14but it's missing that and when I call up
1:28:16to headquarters to uh legal counsil
1:28:18people who by the way I know I know the
1:28:20people in legal counsel who are doing
1:28:22this I know I'm personally I worked with
1:28:24one in in uh New York
1:28:27City and uh and uh and I'm told no that
1:28:32can't go in because that was only verbal
1:28:36that was only verbal well Spike Bowman's
1:28:40being uh saying there's no probable
1:28:42cause was also verbal but his is in
1:28:46there that the the unit chief of the
1:28:48legal council said there's no no
1:28:50probable cause of course that's in there
1:28:52and that was also verbal so I mean am I
1:28:55I know look you can see what's going on
1:28:57here which is that they're trying and
1:29:00the legal council of course like a
1:29:02lawyer like a corporate lawyer they're
1:29:04doing things not for uh public truth and
1:29:08Justice and whatever they're doing
1:29:10things to protect the FBI this happened
1:29:13in the Waco it happened in every single
1:29:16investigation uh internal is that they
1:29:19find ways to try to protect the agency
1:29:21that's their job I I did the same thing
1:29:24in in my office too I tried to protect
1:29:27agents all the time when they messed up
1:29:29you know I I talked about operating
1:29:32informant to go south wall I would go
1:29:34into judges and try to explain things I
1:29:36mean I that's what you do as an agency
1:29:38Council and so this was going on big
1:29:41time and it's it's just the norm uh
1:29:45after 911 so then when when I got called
1:29:48to uh be debriefed by The Joint
1:29:50intelligence committee I couldn't sleep
1:29:53for a couple of nights and I kept
1:29:54thinking of all these little little
1:29:56facts and again I didn't even know half
1:29:58of it and I and I was afraid I wouldn't
1:30:00remember them so when I'm in there
1:30:02because I got a minder and I'm you know
1:30:05nervous and everything I thought you
1:30:06know what and I said I gotta just put
1:30:08this on writing just because I'm not
1:30:10even going to remember it and that's how
1:30:12it started when I first started to do it
1:30:14it was just to get it down in writing I
1:30:17I didn't I didn't sleep a couple nights
1:30:18I went into the office at 4 o'clock in
1:30:20the morning and started getting it all
1:30:22down because I it was like a day before
1:30:24I left or or three about three I only
1:30:27had about three four days of warning
1:30:28that I was flying to New York or to
1:30:30Washington and uh so then I I put it all
1:30:34down in writing and then over time I
1:30:37thought here's what happened the the
1:30:40staffers there were five or so staffers
1:30:43of the joint intelligence committee that
1:30:46were doing the FBI there were a few
1:30:49others doing the CIA and a few others
1:30:51doing the NSA but there were like five
1:30:54and so the the the head of these five
1:30:58staffers that were supposed to be doing
1:31:00the the debriefings in the FBI were
1:31:03headed up by a former FBI legal
1:31:08council um forget his name he was Irish
1:31:11his last name ah I KN o
1:31:14no I can't remember his name right off
1:31:17off hand but I I actually knew the guy
1:31:19personally I probably talked to him a
1:31:22little bit once or twice
1:31:24but I also saw that he had been the
1:31:28legal counsel in the FBI he was a unit
1:31:31Chief former unit chief he wasn't just a
1:31:33low-level one he was a a unit Chief kind
1:31:36of like a spike
1:31:37Bowman
1:31:39and he had been accused maybe by
1:31:43Grassley I don't know who he had been
1:31:45accused by but he was accused by
1:31:47somebody of having helped cover up the
1:31:51Danforth inquiry
1:31:54Senator Danforth had done the inquiry of
1:31:58wakeo and this guy who was in the F who
1:32:01was in the FBI at the time as a legal
1:32:04counsel uh had been accused of that and
1:32:08I like the guy I liked him I a little
1:32:11bit I knew about him he was fine and I
1:32:13actually in my own head said I don't
1:32:16think that's true that he covered up
1:32:18anything of the FBI with Danford at the
1:32:21time this is what I thought in my head
1:32:23maybe not
1:32:24but I thought I don't think he is but to
1:32:27be but to be careful because I thought
1:32:31he would skew it so he was the head of
1:32:34this the staffers and because he already
1:32:37had a track he was accused of having
1:32:40covered up a prior
1:32:41inquiry I thought you know what I can't
1:32:45just give it to these staffers and so
1:32:48then that's what triggered me to say I'm
1:32:50going to take it directly to a couple of
1:32:53people people on The Joint intelligence
1:32:55committee couple of the Senators
1:32:56directly and so then I didn't know who
1:32:59to put I didn't even know who the two
1:33:00heads of it the minority and Majority
1:33:02Leader were I just knew Feinstein and
1:33:05Shelby because I saw their names in a
1:33:07news article that they were asking
1:33:09questions in the joint they were on the
1:33:11joint intelligence committee and they
1:33:13were asking questions I saw their names
1:33:15and I put that those two on it I put
1:33:18internal affairs on it they call it
1:33:20office of professional responsibility I
1:33:22put them on and I put Mueller on so I
1:33:25ended up with five I had the the jiy of
1:33:28course I handed it to them then I had
1:33:30Mueller I had to go to Muer's office and
1:33:32drop off a copy then I went to internal
1:33:35uh o office of professional
1:33:37responsibility then I took a cab over to
1:33:39the Senate building and delivered two
1:33:42envelopes you know sealed envelopes one
1:33:44to Feinstein's office and one to Shelby
1:33:47the only reason I did that is because
1:33:50the
1:33:51jiy uh staffers
1:33:53honestly I was not wrong I think they
1:33:56would have covered it up too my memo
1:33:58would have just been buried totally
1:34:00buried and if if the Senators somewhere
1:34:05they're the ones who leaked it they're
1:34:07the ones who leaked it to CNN and New
1:34:09York Times or whatever because I get
1:34:12this call to a day or two later well
1:34:14some staffer took it on themselves to to
1:34:17leak it and if that hadn't happened you
1:34:20know heaven knows nothing would have
1:34:21come out it would have maybe eventually
1:34:25have come out that it would have taken a
1:34:26lot
1:34:27longer you my final question to you
1:34:30after all
1:34:32this uh with all the pre-int telligence
1:34:36over the years way before 911 early 9s
1:34:40showing a strong link with Saudi
1:34:43Arabia foreign intelligence having maybe
1:34:46four knowledge that were existing inside
1:34:48the United
1:34:50States in 2002
1:34:53Secretary of of State Coen
1:34:57Powell uh goes before the United Nations
1:34:59security Council to get approval for the
1:35:03invasion of Iraq and instead of using
1:35:06all the intelligence that is amassed by
1:35:09your office in Minnesota Phoenix New
1:35:12York wherever
1:35:14instead he uses unvetted
1:35:17information from the CIA we get the war
1:35:21in
1:35:21Iraq give me your thought
1:35:24yeah I mean this is the kind of this is
1:35:27the you know again this is where all
1:35:30naivity of being a an inside person goes
1:35:33up and smoke and I I've told people now
1:35:37I am so cynical now I hate to even admit
1:35:40this about myself uh I can't you know
1:35:43like F I sit here calling fouchy every
1:35:46name in the book because I know he's
1:35:48lying his head off and you know he has
1:35:50lying and walinsky is beautiful face but
1:35:53but she's lying her head off and I I'm
1:35:56so cynical now that I frankly have a
1:36:00difficult time believing anyone in power
1:36:02at all and I think it it actually I
1:36:05think we're we're at the this kind of
1:36:07the Empire and this huus that Michael
1:36:10Shyer talks about uh Imperial hubris I
1:36:14think the Imperial hubris as bad as it
1:36:16was on 911 20 years later it has gotten
1:36:21I mean it went from that bad to up it is
1:36:25just horrible they think they can
1:36:27manufacture their own reality oh Carl R
1:36:31you stupid little people we can make our
1:36:33own reality and you're just left to deal
1:36:36with the aftermath hahaa that kind of
1:36:39that thing that a a Carl Rove who
1:36:42already was a you know creepy ly um you
1:36:46know constant constant line in po
1:36:50politics so Carl Rove is imbued with
1:36:53constant line but Carl Ro's mentality
1:36:55about making your own reality that's
1:36:58gone to everybody now everybody who's
1:37:01even at a low level the Russia gate uh
1:37:03the co all of this stuff now is
1:37:06everybody thinks you know what we own
1:37:08the media we can lie about anything with
1:37:11impunity not a single soul has ever been
1:37:15held accountable for the most agre Co
1:37:18and Powell my God he's he's worshiped
1:37:21and adored and he's the hero blah blah
1:37:23blah law a couple of people on
1:37:25alternative media call out Powell he's
1:37:28murdered millions of people all based on
1:37:32lies and you know coni rice and and
1:37:36Hillary Clinton and Samantha power both
1:37:39parties it has nothing to do with
1:37:41partisanship it's people who get those
1:37:43positions in power they have no they
1:37:47have no example of anyone who's ever
1:37:50been held accountable so why should they
1:37:53even begin why should this even enter
1:37:55their brain and make them even think I
1:37:59oh maybe I shouldn't do this maybe I
1:38:01shouldn't say this there's nothing to
1:38:03even enter their brain because we've now
1:38:06gone a full 20 20 plus years and not a
1:38:11single bit of Truth has ever mattered if
1:38:13the little bit of truth yes dribs and
1:38:16drabs eventually come out it doesn't
1:38:18have any impact on anything like I said
1:38:21they they I don't think they've even
1:38:23made a way for any bit of accountability
1:38:27to to see if people can to prevent
1:38:31officials from line that they either
1:38:35didn't read a memo didn't see a memo
1:38:37even when their name is on it that they
1:38:40didn't see it read it or or whatever and
1:38:43they would have to explain why they
1:38:44didn't do anything even that little tiny
1:38:48tiny bit of making a bit of
1:38:50accountability has never happened and
1:38:53people still go up there oh didn't see
1:38:56it ah didn't see it I didn't know about
1:38:59that and there's nothing to hold them to
1:39:01it because there's no way that you can
1:39:03you know you know a grassly or someone
1:39:05might say are you sure you didn't see
1:39:08this that's all they can do or or Rand
1:39:10Paul with trying to grill fouchy about
1:39:13the woan lab I mean there's almost
1:39:15nothing and and they can just lie with
1:39:19total impunity and and know I'm sorry
1:39:22I'm real cynical at this point but you
1:39:24know I have I have the facts for the
1:39:28cynicism you know and and the facts like
1:39:30I said I didn't even know about half of
1:39:32it I didn't know how Lou free how could
1:39:34you stand up in front of a a room full
1:39:38of parents and wives and husbands who
1:39:43died and spouted out your lies from
1:39:46Saudi Arabia how can you do that how can
1:39:49fouchy lie about these things I don't
1:39:51know you're kill I think the I'm sorry
1:39:54I'm going into covid but I think they're
1:39:56G they're they're apt now to kill lots
1:39:58and lots of children um if you have
1:40:00grandchildren I honestly 5 to 11 I think
1:40:04fouchy has no conscience
1:40:07whatsoever but he in his own ego defense
1:40:11I you know criminals have this
1:40:12Psychopaths have this strong ego defense
1:40:16and if you're in a system where
1:40:18everybody lies and cheats and gets away
1:40:20with it you're going to say well I'm not
1:40:22doing anything different than anybody
1:40:24else and that's how very you know your
1:40:26ego defense is what's different about me
1:40:29I'm you know that's deo's defense he
1:40:31wasn't the only one he was a one who got
1:40:35caught because of a what he thinks of as
1:40:37a stupid first office agent the same
1:40:40thing with what same thing with all of
1:40:41the agents who operated buer they blame
1:40:45that's what criminals do they blame the
1:40:47victims they blame other people and they
1:40:49don't ever admit that they did anything
1:40:51wrong uh what's his name at mili um
1:40:55forget his name now but the the guy uh
1:40:57the mili guy who uh oh I forget his name
1:41:03the guy the soldier yeah and he did no
1:41:06time in prison he did nothing but he got
1:41:09a Cali Cali I think it's Sergeant or
1:41:13Cali is the one the main one so yeah
1:41:16William Cali Jr yeah Cali finally just a
1:41:20couple three years ago says I'm really
1:41:22sorry
1:41:23for what I did that's an unusual
1:41:27thing Calli said that uh mnea in that
1:41:31fog of War when he's grilled he said
1:41:34yeah I made a couple of mistakes you
1:41:36know due to the fog of War uh so that's
1:41:40that's actually very unusual the
1:41:42majority of people strong ego defense
1:41:45they are don't admit it to their own
1:41:47self they never did anything wrong it
1:41:50was all the people around them blah blah
1:41:52blah and to some extent when you're in a
1:41:55system when you have systemic problems
1:41:58like this systemic make your own reality
1:42:01anytime you want to make up your own
1:42:03reality you're allowed to do it because
1:42:05the greater foreign po we're going to go
1:42:07to war with China and Russia Russia gate
1:42:10the greater foreign policy goals Trump
1:42:14anything like that you know truth goes
1:42:16way down the priority list and when
1:42:19you're in a system like that almost
1:42:21everybody's going to lie because that's
1:42:23the that's the nature of the Beast um
1:42:26sorry to be so cynical but Colleen uh F
1:42:30FBI agent out of Minnesota whistleblower
1:42:32I want to thank you so much for coming
1:42:34on thank you very much y yep keep

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