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An Inside Look At The UK's Strictest School w/Katharine Birbalsingh — Transcript

by Peter Boghossian · 19,403 words · 3,013 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00And then the people on the left, they
0:02only recognize the kind of racism that
0:04is not theirs. They only recognize what
0:07they think of as right-wing racism. They
0:09never look inward and think, well, what
0:12things are we doing on the left that are
0:14actually really quite racist? Like
0:15insisting that all of us black people
0:17vote on the left, or insisting that all
0:19of us black people
0:20hold certain values. Like why can't we
0:23have the freedoms of white people to be
0:24able to think the way that we want to
0:25think?
0:31Welcome to conversations with Peter
0:33Boghossian. I'm at Michaela High School
0:35in London and I'm absolutely blown away.
0:38I just wanted to say my impressions
0:40around the school to give some specifics
0:42before we begin the interview. I was
0:44amazed at the level of discipline when I
0:46walked around. Everyone called me sir,
0:48everyone called the teachers sir, opened
0:50the doors for me. They were incredibly
0:53thoughtful, incredibly well-spoken.
0:56It has been an extraordinary experience.
0:59I could not fathom a
1:01high school in the US performing at this
1:04level at any stage and I'm excited to
1:07interview the headmaster Kathleen Bogle
1:09song today about the experience at
1:12Michaela and how she's managed to create
1:14such an extraordinary environment here.
1:17This astonishing educational experience
1:20is testimony that we can help our kids
1:22achieve. You nervous? No, no.
1:25Good. Good. Okay. Okay, great. Um
1:27Okay.
1:29Katharine, thanks for coming on
1:30conversations with Peter Boghossian. I
1:32appreciate it. You have created
1:34something extraordinary. You're
1:35headmistress here at Michaela and I'm
1:38utterly blown away. You've created
1:40something extraordinary. So, let me let
1:42me start by asking you,
1:44tell me about how many students do you
1:45have here? Just over 700.
1:48And their backgrounds are What are their
1:50backgrounds?
1:51Yes, so we're an inner-city school in
1:52Wembley in London with a typical
1:55inner-city intake. So, I'm We're a free
1:59school. So, the equivalent in America is
2:01a charter school, but actually we're
2:03just like a public school because we
2:05don't choose our intake. So, the the
2:08kids who come here are just the local
2:10kids from the inner city as you would
2:13find in any of the local schools here.
2:15So, 700 So, so I'm just I I
2:18I'm so
2:19blown away. So, I we we had a tour, two
2:21of the kids gave us a tour and we walked
2:24into various classrooms. How on earth
2:26did you manage to create an environment?
2:30So, we walked in, no one looked at us
2:32and then the not even the teachers
2:33looked at us and the the students were
2:35so focused. Everybody raised their hand
2:38in unison, their hands went down in
2:39unison. Like how did you create that
2:42environment? Yeah, it's funny cuz I have
2:45a friend who works at one of the local
2:46schools and he's been there for over 20
2:48years and he came to visit and he asked
2:51all the kids what elementary schools
2:53they'd come from and um he came bursting
2:56in here at some point and said, "I don't
2:57understand. They've all been to the same
2:59schools just like our kids. What have
3:01you done to these kids?" he said, you
3:02know.
3:03Yeah. Now, it's because I think we as
3:06Westerners often underestimate how much
3:08influence we can have on children. In
3:11the East, they understand that adults
3:15help to shape who the children will be.
3:18Here in the West, we sort of think,
3:19well, you're either born a good
3:20mathematician or you're not, or you're
3:22born a nice kid or you're not, you know?
3:24It's not true. And so,
3:27children, like all human beings, adapt
3:29to the culture around them. And our
3:32expectations Look, I mean, we do a
3:34behavior boot camp when they first
3:36arrive in year seven,
3:37so that's when they're 11 years old and
3:39we teach them how to behave the Michaela
3:40way. But the main thing I'd say is you
3:44have your detentions for naughty stuff
3:46and you have consistency from all of the
3:48staff and you have excellent teaching
3:51and that is something I think people
3:53don't realize that there's good teaching
3:55and there's bad teaching and then
3:56there's really excellent teaching and
3:58all of my teachers are excellent and
3:59we're all training each other all of the
4:02time. Um
4:04so that we get better and better.
4:06The kids don't turn around because
4:07they're used to seeing guests. We get
4:09800 visitors here every year from all
4:11around the world, mainly teachers who
4:13come to see what we're doing because
4:15they've heard these amazing things about
4:17the school. Just really through word of
4:19mouth on social media and so on. And so,
4:22the kids are used to kid people coming
4:24to the classrooms, so they don't really
4:25notice it. Um
4:27and it's also the case that nobody would
4:30turn around because well, nobody does it
4:32and
4:34it's it's just it's just not the done
4:36thing. So, so they they raise their hand
4:38in unison and then they put their hand
4:40down and then the teacher will say Do
4:42you call them teachers? Yep. The the
4:44teacher will say something to and they
4:47talk to each other about something.
4:49Yeah. Now, I mean, you saw a particular
4:51thing, so
4:52it's not that they're raising it in
4:53unison. It's that they all know the
4:54answer to that question. So, that's why
4:56they're all answering. But you might
4:58have gone into another classroom and not
4:59seen everybody raise their hand because
5:01they didn't all know the answer to the
5:02question. And that would be a question
5:04that they were given We call them
5:05bogglers, questions that, you know, you
5:07know not everybody's going to know the
5:08answer to. When you were in that
5:10particular classroom, they were being
5:12given questions where the teacher knew,
5:14come on, everybody, you're all with me.
5:16They're picking up the pace, they're
5:17picking up the energy in the classroom.
5:19that's the other thing that Okay, so I
5:21just so many questions. Okay. So, how
5:24did you get these particular teachers? I
5:27mean, not everybody could do that. This
5:30is it seems to me to be
5:32a specialty, a subspecialty. Well, they
5:34are brilliant, but none of them knew how
5:36to do that when they arrived. We have to
5:38train them into being a Michaela
5:39teacher. So, uh
5:43you know, and it's hard. When they first
5:44start, it's really hard and I have to
5:45give a lot of pep talks to them saying,
5:48"Look, everybody here was where you are
5:50now. I know you feel it's difficult, but
5:52I promise you in 2 months' time you're
5:54going to be feeling a lot more on top of
5:55it, etc." We give them a lot of support
5:57and a lot of advice on I'm telling them
5:59precisely what to do so that we can get
6:01that consistency. Children love
6:03consistency and they love
6:04predictability. People think that that
6:06stops children from being creative when
6:08actually the opposite is true. It's when
6:10children feel safe that they are able to
6:12push the boat out and ask questions when
6:14they're not sure. It's, you know, when
6:17they're able to try out new ideas and
6:18new thinking.
6:20Uh so, if you want your children to be
6:21independently minded and to think for
6:22themselves, you really do want to an
6:24environment where the discipline is good
6:27and where the teaching is excellent. Um
6:29Yeah, I'm going to get back to the
6:30teachers, but at lunch there's a topic
6:32that you centered the conversation
6:34around and the topic was lying and they
6:37used a wonderful example of George
6:39Santos who's a
6:41the paradigmatic pathological liar who
6:44lies literally about everything, even
6:46things of no consequence whatsoever. And
6:48so, we talked about lying and then I
6:50asked the kids,
6:51"Are there ever circumstances in which
6:53you could lie?" And they gave some
6:55wonderful answers like if you were taken
6:57hostage and they wanted to kill people
6:59and
7:00and I was just so taken aback by
7:04the focus of the table and the
7:07seriousness about which they took
7:09everybody's point. And so,
7:12Okay, so I want to I want to
7:13been taught. So, every time they have
7:15lunch, they're given a topic. They're
7:16always sat with those children. They
7:18each have a role. It's family lunch.
7:20They serve the lunch to each other. They
7:22wipe up afterwards with a cloth. You
7:24know, there's a sense of being part of a
7:26family and then they know that when they
7:29have their topic, they're meant to
7:30discuss the topic. So, they've then got
7:32used to the idea of collaborating
7:34together, talking, you know, over lunch.
7:37We all take for granted the skill of
7:39being able to cut your food and look at
7:41the other person and chat to them.
7:43Right. That's something that they are
7:44learning every day. And
7:46so, this is just a lovely part a lovely
7:48part of the day where they eat lunch and
7:50break bread together. Right. Okay, so
7:52you you have to help me. As an American,
7:54I'm I'm just I'm having trouble with
7:56this.
7:56Oh, no, people have trouble with it
7:58here, too. Don't think that schools like
8:00in English schools are not like this.
8:02We're the only school in the world like
8:03this. We're very odd. Yeah, I've I've
8:05I've I've been to a lot of um um high
8:08schools around the world, actually. I've
8:10given talk talks a lot of high schools
8:11around the world and I I've never seen
8:14anything like this. Like literally, I've
8:17never seen and and Reading Travis and I
8:19were looking at each other when we were
8:20in the classrooms just astonished. Like,
8:22"Okay, so let's
8:24I just need help understanding this. So,
8:28you
8:29Well, you know, it's really great that
8:31you're so interested and blown away by
8:33it because um look, some people come and
8:36say, "Hmm, this is interesting,
8:39Katharine." And they don't like it. They
8:40don't like the order, they don't like
8:42the structure and um
8:44I think order and structure is good for
8:47children. Well,
8:48to those people I would ask what the
8:50alternative is and how do you assess
8:51those outcomes? Exactly. And whenever
8:54anyone points to our results, which are
8:56of course the last 2 years we've had the
8:57highest progress eight is the way in
8:59which schools are judged in this
9:00country. We've had the highest score
9:03for the last 2 years in the whole
9:05country. That's out of some 4,000
9:07secondary schools. Right. And I want I
9:08want to there's so much Okay, so I want
9:10to drill down this cuz this is really
9:11important. So, just again,
9:14you're you're talking about So, I saw
9:16primarily minority students, many many
9:19Muslim students.
9:20Yeah. They're all minority. Okay, uh
9:23maybe one or two Eastern European kids.
9:26Okay. Okay. So, virtually all minorities
9:28if not all minorities.
9:30From the community,
9:32it's open enrollment, so you don't
9:34self-select the smartest.
9:36And yet you produce those outcomes. So,
9:39by definition, that means that if this
9:42were replicated and I see no reason
9:44given that there's a mechanism behind
9:45this that this couldn't be replicated,
9:47that you could achieve that any any
9:50anyone who wants to
9:52replicate that would achieve similar
9:53ends. So, there must be a political
9:56reason. There's no pedagogical reason
9:58why it can't be replicated. So there
10:00must be a political reason why it's not
10:01replicated.
10:02Yes. That's right. There is. I we have
10:05tried to set up a primary school and an
10:07elementary school. We were we were not
10:10allowed to do so. We tried to set up a
10:12leadership program.
10:13Allowed by who? By the government. So I
10:15know in America you all can kind of just
10:17set up charters and you get money and we
10:19can't do that. We have to go through
10:21government. So government would not
10:23allow us to do that. Then we tried to do
10:26a leadership program which would have
10:28given well leadership advice to various
10:31schools on how to copy us and what to
10:32do.
10:33Uh we were blocked in doing that. We
10:36then got quite far along in trying to
10:38set up a another secondary high school
10:40and then COVID happened and for various
10:43reasons that all fell apart. So I've
10:45sort of given up on trying to expand the
10:47school cuz I have tried and this is I
10:49might add under a conservative
10:51government here in Britain. That was my
10:53next question. Was it blocked by the
10:55right or the left?
10:57Well it was under a conservative
10:59government. And what's hilarious is that
11:00people always say that
11:02the conservative government are backing
11:04us. Well I haven't found that at all.
11:06I found quite the opposite. Now of
11:09course it'll be interesting when labor
11:10get in cuz labor are about to come in
11:12now
11:13and
11:15you know they
11:16well if if this is what life was like
11:18under the conservatives I would very
11:19much worry about what life will be like
11:21under labor.
11:22Ex
11:23why?
11:24Because we are not progressive. We're
11:26very traditional.
11:28What we prove I always think of us as
11:30like the show pony for schools and all
11:32of these teachers who come from all over
11:33the place including Chicago, New York,
11:36all kinds of teachers come.
11:39They they copy what we do and we have
11:41changed things in
11:43a number of schools I see using a number
11:47of our methods which is great cuz we
11:49have had impact on schools across
11:51in Australia, in New Zealand. I mean
11:53this is you know across the western
11:55world we've had impact. You said
11:56methods. What what are the Michaela
11:58methods? What methods are they trying to
12:00So what are the methods? Um
12:02So we consider ourselves to be
12:03traditional.
12:05Progressives
12:06are very relaxed when it comes to
12:07behavior.
12:08Um they see children to be parts of
12:12different victim groups. So they'll say
12:14okay you're in the black group, you're
12:16in the LGBT group, you're in the Muslim
12:18group, you're in the whatever group.
12:22And they teach children to identify with
12:25that and to
12:28see the world through the victim's eyes.
12:32We on the other hand push very much this
12:34idea of
12:35working hard and being kind.
12:37That work hard be kind actually we stole
12:39from the American KIPP charter network.
12:42They used to have
12:44a motto called work hard be nice. Um
12:47that is a much better word.
12:49Well I mean we changed it cuz we didn't
12:51want to have the exact same motto but
12:53they've actually been stopped from
12:54having. I don't know if you know this
12:55but they've been prevented so after
12:58George Floyd they came under attack for
13:02being racist for having this motto
13:04because if white teachers teach black
13:06children to be nice that means you're
13:08teaching them to be subservient and
13:10therefore it's racist and KIPP then took
13:13their motto down.
13:14Now there's no way I'm ever taking our
13:16motto down because I think it's right to
13:17teach children to work hard and be kind.
13:19And if that the very least you manage to
13:21get all your children to be those two
13:22things then brilliant. Obviously you
13:23want them to be able to do more than
13:24that but you want them to have
13:27resilience, to persevere, to be stoical,
13:31to keep on going when it gets hard
13:33working hard. And then you also want
13:35them to be kind, nice people. You know
13:38working in the inner city all my life
13:39and my teachers will also tell you where
13:41they've worked.
13:42If a child were to drop a plate in the
13:44canteen
13:46uh in other schools what happens is
13:50that's what happens. To kind of
13:51humiliate the child who's dropped
13:53something. What happens here?
13:55Five, six children run to help them pick
13:57up what they dropped. I've seen children
13:59put their hands into wet lasagna on the
14:02floor to put it back on the plate, you
14:05know, because they're trying to help
14:06their classmate. And I just think it's
14:09really important that children be
14:10brought up in that way across racial and
14:12religious divides. So our children have
14:15backgrounds from all over the place.
14:16We've got Muslim children, Hindu
14:18children, Jehovah Witnesses, all types.
14:20Um
14:21and we very much
14:23create an environment and socialize them
14:26into being able to get on with each
14:27other.
14:28Okay. So I'm having a hard time So who
14:31on earth is against this?
14:34Well everybody.
14:36Um Okay talk me through it.
14:38Okay. So
14:40All right. So people who don't like it
14:41they would come and say how come there's
14:43silence in the corridors and all the
14:45kids do is say good morning and good
14:46afternoon to their teachers. How come
14:48they're not skipping along talking about
14:51Aristotle? And when I say you know the
14:53thing is inner city kids don't skip
14:56along talking about Aristotle. What they
14:58do is they punch each other in the head
14:59and run screaming down corridors but
15:03you're whacking each other and little
15:05kids get trampled on and so on and so
15:06forth. Now I've done this all my life. I
15:08know what corridors look like in inner
15:10city schools. But um
15:13unfortunately I think a lot of the
15:14people making decisions have never been
15:17in an inner inner city school. They have
15:18no idea what they're talking about. They
15:20have no idea what's happening on the
15:21ground. So I've spent my life trying to
15:24get people to understand what is
15:26happening in these schools but nobody
15:27seems to care mainly because they don't
15:29care about these kinds of kids. And what
15:31they care about I would argue is looking
15:34like they are good people, seeming like
15:36they are good people. So they put black
15:37boxes up on Instagram and they say I'm
15:39an anti-racist. Um I always think when
15:42these people are attacking me on Twitter
15:43and so on. Well what do you actually do?
15:47What do you do every day? Cuz every day
15:48I'm in work at 6:45 a.m. And I've been
15:51doing this for over 25 years and I've
15:53been changing the lives of kids in the
15:54inner city who come from poor
15:56backgrounds
15:57who just want a chance in life, you
15:59know? And the only way these kids are
16:01going to get a chance in life is if they
16:04get an education. And I know how
16:06important school is. I think a lot of
16:08people don't realize how important
16:09school is and they just think you're
16:11either born with the brains or you're
16:12not and that sort of thing as opposed to
16:15there is so much that we adults can do
16:17to influence a child and shape who he's
16:19going to become.
16:20And
16:22all the problems that you see both in
16:23America and over here where adults
16:26either illiterate or innumerate
16:28functionally I mean or
16:31different groups that have been created
16:32where people cannot get on with each
16:34other and they hate each other that's
16:36happened because of what takes place in
16:38schools, right?
16:39And
16:40people don't seem to realize this. They
16:42don't realize how important schools are
16:43and I know that the conversation is
16:45people talk about what's happening at
16:46the universities but the reason why the
16:49kids at the universities are so easily
16:51manipulated is because they've already
16:53been completely brainwashed when they're
16:54at school. Okay. So okay. All right. So
16:59going back to the faculty you have here
17:01the teachers
17:02to teach here you have to have a
17:05teaching certificate. Yeah I mean look
17:07my teachers are very bright and very
17:09good. So I have teachers who've been to
17:10Oxford and Cambridge. I've got teachers
17:12who've been to the next grade level
17:14university down from that.
17:16They're they're very good. But the thing
17:18is you could do this stuff anywhere
17:21really. Now it might not be exactly the
17:23same, you know? Maybe not all the kids
17:25would be putting their hands up as you
17:27saw. But you would have you would
17:29transform. I've heard from other head
17:32teachers out there, from people so I've
17:36been doing some work with the a school
17:38in the Bronx which is a charter school
17:39called Vertex Academies.
17:41And Ian Rowe is set it up and
17:45I've been doing some work with him.
17:47And I went in there and saw X Y and Z
17:49and then gave some advice. The place has
17:50got so much better with just following
17:52the advice that I've given them. You
17:53know it
17:55these these things work. And to be
17:58honest we're not the only ones. There
17:59are other schools that take some of
18:01these ideas, make that happen. So when I
18:03say take some of these ideas the adult
18:05should be the authority in the room.
18:06Okay. Um I just asked okay so adults are
18:09the authority in the room. So what I
18:10mean by that is you know the friends of
18:12yours who might be parents and they want
18:13to be friends with their kids and they
18:15don't really know how to discipline
18:16them. They don't tell them off. They
18:18don't punish them and praise them and so
18:20on. Even the word punish these days is
18:22considered to be a bad word. You can't
18:24say it. First it was punish, then they
18:26moved to sanctioning kids, then they
18:29moved to
18:31correcting kids. Now they talk about
18:33consequences for kids. Over the years
18:36that I have been teaching these words
18:38have changed because it's simply
18:40unacceptable to discipline a child which
18:42is crazy. It's not like you're beating
18:44them, you know? You give them a 20
18:46minutes detention. What's the big deal?
18:48Or if you're a parent you make them sit
18:49on the naughty step or you tell them
18:51they're not allowed to
18:52use their phone that night or whatever
18:54it is.
18:55We have to be adults. We've lost adult
18:58authority in our society in the western
19:01world I think these days.
19:03It's also the case so adult authority.
19:05Then there's the curriculum.
19:07So everybody's going around decolonizing
19:09their curriculum everywhere. We haven't
19:10done that. I mean
19:12it's the case
19:13by
19:14decolonize? Okay. So it's not that we
19:17don't read any books by black authors.
19:20We do. It's not that we don't include
19:23black people in our
19:26discussion around British history. So a
19:29million soldiers gave their lives from
19:31India in the Second World War. We
19:33wouldn't teach the Second World War
19:34without mentioning that for instance.
19:37But what we don't do is
19:40teach
19:42a whole unit which would be six weeks or
19:44longer on the black Tudors.
19:46Uh because there were a few black people
19:48in Britain during Tudor times but um
19:52it doesn't it doesn't warrant 6 weeks of
19:54study. So, we might mention that Henry
19:57VIII had a trumpeter called John Blank
20:00and he was black. Yes, but we wouldn't
20:02spend all our time on these issues. Um
20:05and that's because we think we want to
20:07teach children British history and
20:10chronologically. So, history is often
20:12not taught chronologically anymore. So,
20:13children have no real grasp of where
20:15they're coming from. We teach British
20:17history to all of our children because
20:19it is their history. People might say, I
20:21think both on the right and the left,
20:22"Oh, no, they're not white, therefore
20:24they're not British." But I believe very
20:25much that they are British. And this
20:27idea that they're actually from
20:28somewhere else, Nigeria or Ghana or, you
20:30know, uh
20:32United
20:33United States. I was going to say United
20:35States. Well, we'll take that. That's
20:36good.
20:37I say. Um
20:39you know, the fact is that um
20:43our kids, their parents may be from
20:45somewhere else, their grandparents may
20:46be from somewhere else, but they very
20:48much should be taught British history.
20:50We sing God Save the King. We sing other
20:53uh
20:54hymns or songs like that um
20:57which that represent the country. And
20:59the reason for that is that
21:00we're multicultural, but we're all under
21:02the same umbrella of being British. And
21:04um that's important because
21:07I mean, in America and here, we see all
21:09kinds of discord and division between
21:11different groups. And I think that that
21:13is stoked
21:13manufactured Yeah, it is exactly in the
21:16schools because everybody's asked, "How
21:19do you identify?"
21:20Yeah. As opposed to, "Well, I'm actually
21:22British and I'm human and we This is
21:25what we share together." So, we have all
21:28of our children
21:29um
21:31living together here in the school,
21:34being friends with each other across
21:36those divides
21:38uh because it's what we believe in. We
21:39believe we
21:40you know, and we never
21:42like we we just don't do the kinds of
21:44things that other schools do which
21:45divide children, I think. Um
21:48I think it's good for children to care
21:49about each other across those divides.
21:51Okay, so so
21:53many people watching this won't have an
21:55understanding cuz they didn't have the
21:57tour. And even when I read about the
21:59school, I still couldn't like Yes, it
22:01takes visiting. I always say to people,
22:03you need to come and see it.
22:04It really does. It really it really
22:06does. Well, there is a documentary about
22:07us which might um You can find it at
22:10headmistress What is it?
22:11strictestheadmistress.com.
22:13Oh, is that you? Yes, that's me.
22:15headmistress.
22:16Yes, and the producer, she set it up on
22:17this website. So, people can watch it.
22:20Uh the What the what what that
22:21documentary does is it does allow you to
22:24see the kids, to to see some of the
22:26teaching, to get a feel for it cuz when
22:29you just read about it, it's true. You
22:31just you you can't know what it's like.
22:34Okay, so
22:35walk us through for like a minute or
22:38two.
22:39Kids come in at what time and then what
22:41do they do? And I noticed there's a
22:43little room for the phones, they put the
22:45phones in and
22:47like walk walk us through. I don't know
22:49what you mean by room for the Isn't
22:51there's like a room for the
22:52drop the digital drop-off. So, okay,
22:54first of all, they're not allowed phones
22:56in the school at all.
22:58Well, I say they're not allowed. We If
22:59we hear them or we see them, we take
23:00them. So, if you have a phone and we
23:02never hear it, never see it, fine.
23:04Uh and because everything's so orderly,
23:06we just never see phones. It just never
23:08happens. In other schools, gosh, the
23:09kids are going around with their
23:11earphones on with their phones. So, not
23:13only do we say no to phones in the
23:16classrooms here and the corridors, but
23:18the digital drop-off that you saw is
23:20actually us encouraging them to get rid
23:21of their phones for a whole week
23:23or a couple of days. So, they build up
23:26to it. "I'm going to do it tonight. I'm
23:27going to give in my phone. Oh, I spent
23:29the whole evening, Miss, without my
23:30phone." Okay, why don't we try it for
23:32two nights now? See if you can do it.
23:34And then coming up towards exams, kids
23:35are giving in their phones because And
23:37so, we've got exams internal exams
23:39happening in 10 days' time. So, they're
23:40giving in their phones because for 10
23:42days, they're going to go without their
23:43phones. And there's there's a real sense
23:46they all understand how bad phones are
23:48for their for everything, for their
23:49mental health, for their for for their
23:52exam results, for the growth of their
23:53brains. There are all kinds of studies
23:55done that show that how If a toddler is
23:57on a phone, you I can guarantee you he's
23:59never going to become a reader. Like he
24:01may read, he'll never love reading. It's
24:03impossible. And parents don't realize
24:05this. They give their children these
24:06phones and um they don't know, you know,
24:09Social Dilemma which was on a film on
24:11Netflix. You know, Kristen Harris,
24:13exactly. You know, they're they they
24:15were whistleblowing trying to say, "Look
24:17at what we're doing." And they weren't
24:18even talking about kids, they were
24:19talking about adults.
24:20So, people just don't know and they give
24:22these kids they give their kids these
24:24devices cuz they're great babysitters,
24:26let's face it. Parents want a bit of a
24:28break, they give them a phone, the kid
24:29goes quiet. But they don't know what the
24:31the trouble they're storing up. Every
24:34crazy person out there, every pedophile,
24:36every gang member, they all have access
24:38to your child. They know their what
24:40their favorite food is and their where
24:42they go to school and their walk to
24:43school and who their friends are and
24:45everything. And there are children who
24:47have been murdered, not our children,
24:48but I'm just saying there have been
24:49children who have been murdered. There
24:51are moms out there, there's an American
24:52mom,
24:53Brecht Bednar, uh she her boy, she
24:57brought him up here, he was murdered um
24:59because she allowed him to game online.
25:01And I mean, and by the time she went to
25:03the police, he had been so taken in by
25:05the groomer, there was nothing the
25:06police could do. So, the thing is people
25:09don't realize the danger they're putting
25:10their children into,
25:12but there's also the brain the the
25:13breaking of the brain Yeah.
25:15which just makes them more stupid
25:17ultimately.
25:17Jonathan Jonathan Haidt has been He's
25:19He's great. writing a book
25:20Everything that Jonathan Haidt is saying
25:21is absolutely spot on. I have the
25:23experience of it. Anecdotally, I can
25:25tell you I see it here. I can tell you
25:26for nothing, the kids who go up in terms
25:28of the the set that they're in, academic
25:31sets cuz we have four sets, top to
25:33bottom,
25:34the ones that go up never have a phone.
25:35The ones that come down are always on
25:37their phones.
25:37Interesting. Okay. It's fascinating.
25:39Okay, so so walk me through the day.
25:41What time do the kids get in? So, they
25:43get in just before 8:00 and then they're
25:45here till 3:15. They have six lessons.
25:47They have a break in the morning and
25:48then they have lunch. Lunch, of course,
25:50is this orchestrated event which you saw
25:51which is family lunch. Um they are
25:55normal kids. They learn tons. I remember
25:58once we had a white middle-class kid who
26:01joined us here. Cuz they're very rare.
26:03They Once in a while they come. He was
26:05actually the son of a elementary
26:08headmistress somewhere nearby.
26:11So, he came to us and he came to us in
26:13year eight. So, the kids had already
26:14been here for a year before he arrived.
26:15Yeah.
26:16And I saw him going down the corridors
26:18in his single file as we walk. And he
26:20was crying. And I pulled him to the
26:22side. I said, "What's going on?" And he
26:24said,
26:25"I just I've never had to concentrate so
26:26hard. I've never had to work so hard in
26:28all my life.
26:28Yeah. I I I I can't cope with it." And I
26:31said, in true Michaela fashion, "Pull
26:34yourself together. Come on, you can do
26:36this." Put him back in the line, off he
26:38went. And you know, over his time here,
26:41he moved from the fourth set to the top
26:44set.
26:45He became a guide, one of those kids who
26:47took you around. He became a future
26:49leader. He He was just excellent. I
26:52mean, he um
26:54he and he got much better results than
26:56he would have got somewhere else, but
26:57also the kind of person that he is, you
26:59know?
27:00Uh I am That's the thing I'm always most
27:03proud of is who they are.
27:05Yeah.
27:05And it's such a nice place to be. You
27:07don't see this often in inner cities,
27:09especially in America. I mean, your
27:11public schools are just on fire.
27:12They're a disgrace, yeah. So, what what
27:14one thing
27:16that I noticed is that
27:19at the end of the exercise at lunch, we
27:21did the appreciations and then the two
27:24claps
27:25and
27:26they went around and they talked what
27:28what they were
27:30uh
27:31grateful for, basically, what they
27:33appreciated. That's it. And I was so
27:35touched by the things they were grateful
27:37for. I was so
27:39just taken aback by that. And then at
27:41the end, the person leading the exercise
27:44called
27:46one person from each table and the kids
27:48stood up and they pushed their chair and
27:50they projected their voice and they
27:51said, you know, like I won't say her
27:54name, but this one
27:56little girl who gave us the tour
27:59said that she was she said, "It's a
28:00small thing, but I'm really thankful for
28:02the timers that they give us because it
28:04enabled us we had these guests and
28:06enabled us to get on time." And I mean,
28:08just the things that they they they
28:10There is something about gratitude that
28:13I also don't see So, we teach them
28:15actively teach them gratitude. You know,
28:17you'll find in every self-help book that
28:19they tell you to write down things that
28:20you're grateful for at the end of the
28:21day so that you're a happier person. So,
28:23they actively stand up, as you say, and
28:25they demonstrate gratitude publicly, but
28:27we also encourage them to do it
28:28privately. One, because they'll be
28:30happier, but also because they're going
28:31to be better people. Right. So, that
28:33they don't go around see themsel- seeing
28:34themselves as victims. "Oh, life is so
28:36hard for me because I'm part of this
28:37group. And how awful because the
28:39establishment hates me or the white man
28:41is hates me" and so on. They they just
28:43don't think like that cuz we never
28:45encourage them to think like we
28:46encourage them to be grateful for what
28:47they've got and to recognize how much
28:49more they might have than somebody else.
28:51Yeah, so I've been thinking about that
28:53idea as well, this this embedded
28:55victimhood and people
28:58they want to show off how victimized
29:00they are. Again, Haidt calls the victim
29:02culture, yeah.
29:02And that's because that's that's the
29:03culture we live in. So, you get more
29:06social status and more social standing
29:08the more of a victim you are. Um but
29:11that makes for a pretty unhappy life
29:13where you're always just angry with
29:14people, you know? As opposed to thinking
29:17strategically about what you're going to
29:19do with your life and how you are
29:21personally responsible for yourself. So,
29:23personal responsibility is a big thing
29:24that we teach the kids. Personal
29:25responsibility, a sense of duty towards
29:28other people, the duty towards the
29:30whole, right? So, you will sacrifice
29:33on your behalf
29:34Right. you sacrifice things for the
29:36betterment of the whole
29:38um
29:39and that you are grateful for what you
29:41have,
29:42you work hard, you are kind,
29:45um you do the right thing when it's
29:47difficult, especially when it's
29:48difficult, we say. You know,
29:51those We have lots of little phrases
29:52like that. You know, when we say to the
29:54kid if he's got a detention, we say,
29:55"Well, the trust bucket has been knocked
29:56over, but now we're going to write in it
29:59up and you're going to start filling the
30:00trust bucket again because sometimes we
30:02make mistakes, but there's always a way
30:03of
30:04of making up for that mistake and that's
30:06by building trust again." And um
30:09you know, we know the families very
30:11well. We know the children very well.
30:13Uh and that creates Well, there is trust
30:16between us and kindness.
30:19And
30:20too often, look, my teachers We work
30:22very hard. You know, we get here early
30:24in the morning, 7:00 in the morning
30:26easily. Some Some of us get here before
30:28then. And then we're here till 5:00,
30:306:00 in the evening. Some of us will
30:31stay later than that as well. My
30:33teachers are very dedicated and very
30:36much they believe in changing the lives
30:38of children in the inner city for the
30:40better.
30:41Um, so we are exceptional in that way.
30:44But these ideas, I promise you, could
30:45work everywhere. But they also need the
30:48values behind. So, when you say, "Why
30:50would anybody have a problem with this?"
30:52Okay, so on the surface, there people
30:53who hate silence. There are people who
30:55hate order and structure because they
30:57think kids should just be allowed to run
30:58free and do whatever they want. And I
31:00often think that the left get this
31:02wrong. They So, they think that you
31:05know, kids, let them go free, let them
31:07do what they want. And then when they
31:09are adults, that's when they're
31:11they are taking our freedom away.
31:13Freedom of speech is curtailed. Um,
31:15we're not allowed to think what we want,
31:16say what we want. Um, and people are
31:19terrified when they're adults. It should
31:21actually be the other way around. You
31:22curtail their freedom when they're
31:24younger so that later they can be truly
31:26free. Because true freedom isn't just
31:29being able to do whatever you want. It's
31:30having the skills and the knowledge
31:32that's required to be able to live a
31:34truly free life where you can fulfill
31:38your ambitions, where you have the
31:40skills and the knowledge to find what
31:41you love and do what you love. If you
31:43haven't had freedoms restricted when
31:45you're younger, like no smartphone, like
31:48go to bed by 9:00 or 10:00, like um
31:51very, you know, supervised access to the
31:54laptop and the internet and so on. Um
31:57People look at me, they say to me, "Oh,
31:59you know, you must hate children because
32:00you want corridors to be silent." No, I
32:03take that freedom from them in order to
32:05ensure that they um
32:09that they have the possibility of um
32:12of being able to gain those skills and
32:14knowledge to make something with their
32:16lives later so that they'll be free
32:18later. Of course, children aren't free.
32:20I mean, they shouldn't be free. I mean,
32:22obviously.
32:23so one of the things that I was thinking
32:25of what when
32:26What percentage or even a
32:29maybe it's not a percentage, maybe it's
32:30a number
32:32of kids do you expel for disciplinary
32:35issues?
32:36Very few. No more than the national
32:38average. So, we have done, you know,
32:41permanent
32:43But I mean, I haven't done one for a
32:44couple of years at least. I mean,
32:46you know, Because I'm I'm thinking I'm
32:48I'm cuz I'm always thinking like what
32:49would someone say? So, one of the
32:51reasons that Chinese test scores are so
32:52high is they only allow certain people
32:54to take the
32:55Yes. One of the one of the reasons Yes,
32:56that's not happening here. Yeah, that's
32:58not happening.
32:58Well, I haven't expelled anybody for 2
33:00years, so at least. Um, and we do not
33:02have more than the national average,
33:04which would be maybe one a year or
33:05something, you know. So,
33:07that that does not, you know,
33:09that doesn't apply here. And it's also
33:10the case that they have been given to us
33:12by the local council. We have not chosen
33:14these kids. Um See, that's a key. That
33:17So, they they weren't self-selected. I
33:19mean, they weren't So, I have I'll push
33:21back on something you said. I cannot
33:23fathom that this would work in the
33:25United States. Of course it would. Of
33:27course it would.
33:27No, politically.
33:28Well, no. I don't think there's any
33:29political will No, no, no, no. an
33:31institution. I mean, I think
33:33someone who's crazy enough like me to do
33:34it. No, no, no, no, no. There's no
33:36political will here either. This hasn't
33:38happened because I've had support. This
33:40has happened in spite of the government.
33:42This has happened in spite of all the
33:44people who hate us. Um, because we've
33:46had to fight for it. Even when they see
33:48the outcomes, even when you say, "Hey,
33:50look, here are the outcomes at here
33:52Here's the neighborhood school. Here are
33:53their outcomes."
33:55Yep, that's right.
33:58People still campaign to ruin us. Um And
34:00and the reason that
34:02I I just I just find this to be I'm I'm
34:05I'm really trying to That's why I asked
34:06if it's the right or the left. I mean, I
34:08would think it's
34:09the right because they want minorities
34:11to fail.
34:13Or I'm trying to think of like why
34:15that Look,
34:16the right generally tend to be in favor
34:18of us. There some of them will feel
34:20uncomfortable with silent corridors and
34:21so on.
34:22Um,
34:23but the right do tend to be in favor of
34:25us. Although, when I speak about
34:27restricting children's freedom, you can
34:29see them kind of bristle a little.
34:32Um, but they tend to be in favor of us
34:33cuz we have a traditional curriculum. We
34:35have a traditional approach to
34:36education. We're not encouraging the
34:37kids to be victims and so on. So, the
34:39right tend to support us. The left are
34:41very much against us because they don't
34:43like traditional values. They want a
34:44progressive curriculum, so they want it
34:46to be decolonized and so on. They want
34:48to teach critical race theory. They want
34:49to uh divide children according to
34:51groups and they don't like the fact that
34:53we don't do that. They will argue. So,
34:55what will they argue? They'll say
34:57special needs kids can't possibly cope
34:59with your school. And my position on
35:01that is they are
35:02argument, but you're okay.
35:03they they love it, the special needs
35:05kids. Because when you teach them in a
35:07traditional way, when you have silence
35:09in the classroom so that they can hear,
35:11Wait, wait, listen. I'm sorry to
35:12interrupt. Let's back What do you mean
35:13by special needs kids? I think it might
35:14mean something different here in the US.
35:16No, means the same thing. Okay. Any kind
35:19of
35:20I don't know. You're autistic, dyslexic,
35:24yeah, any of those things.
35:25Okay. I mean, we've got autistic
35:26children here. We've got a couple of
35:27kids, one boy who jumps on the on the
35:30ground in the same spot in the in in the
35:31playground. I mean, they love it. They
35:33love the order and clarity. I mean, the
35:35thing is is that they can't imagine
35:38special needs kids doing well here
35:39because their special needs kids are
35:42allowed to act out. But the thing is
35:44with children, if you pull the fence in
35:46tight, they will behave within that
35:49fence
35:50as long as you're consistent. So, look,
35:52one of the reasons why children of
35:54divorced families have a much have a
35:56have a
35:57have a harder time
35:59uh being successful in life. Obviously,
36:01it's possible to do and single moms can
36:03bring up children well and so on. I'm
36:05not saying they can't, but it's more
36:07difficult. The reason it's more
36:08difficult is because of the
36:10inconsistency between the two houses.
36:12So, if dad is saying, "Go to bed when
36:15you want." and mom is saying, "Go to bed
36:16at 9:00." If mom is saying, "You can be
36:18on the smartphone when you want." but
36:19dad is saying, "No, no, no, no, I'm
36:21taking the smartphone away." That
36:23inconsistency
36:25is poison to a child and they can't cope
36:28with it and then they spin out of
36:29control. That's why children being
36:31brought up under one roof, much better
36:34idea because hopefully mom and dad are
36:37singing from the same hymn sheet. But I
36:38have to say, if they're not, that child
36:40will also struggle. So, it's the same
36:41thing in a school. What tends to happen
36:43in schools is that people just let it
36:44go. They just say, "Okay, hire the
36:46teachers, you go and do what you like in
36:48your own classroom." But when you just
36:50let it go like that, there's no
36:51consistency and there's no like
36:54our school, we are all applying the same
36:57methods. We're all having similar
36:59conversations with the kids and we all
37:01have similar values. So, when you say
37:02it's impossible to understand, it's
37:03probably because your values are very
37:05similar to ours. Um If your values are
37:10So, I was once I gave a talk and I
37:11talked about the same sort of stuff I'm
37:13talking to you about now. And this woman
37:15got up to
37:16a white woman, white middle class woman
37:18came up to me and said,
37:19"But what about the racism? Why don't
37:21you teach them about racism?" And I
37:23said, "Well, I I don't think I need to
37:25be talking about racism all the time. I
37:27want to talk to them about the skills
37:29and knowledge that they need to be able
37:30to overcome obstacles in their life.
37:33Some of that may be racism and other
37:34obstacles." And she said, "But the
37:36racism is so bad. You've got to teach
37:38them. You've got to teach them." And I
37:39said, "But I think they're okay." And
37:41she kept saying it and I said, "They do
37:43know that they're black, you know."
37:45I said, "They do know. And what they
37:47need to know is how to jump over
37:49obstacles, how to build resilience, how
37:51to build um
37:53stoicism
37:56and And she She got so angry and she
37:59marched off on me. And I just thought,
38:01"You, a white woman, are telling me how
38:04bad racism it is. I've worked One, I'm
38:06not white. Two, I've
38:08I've worked in the inner city with brown
38:10and black kids all of my life. I know
38:12what works, but you're telling me that
38:14I'm somehow letting them down by not
38:16constantly going on about racism." Now,
38:18look, I'll give an assembly about Serena
38:20Williams. I'll give an assembly about um
38:24I don't know.
38:26Martin Luther King or whatever.
38:28But
38:30when I do that, I'm not saying life is
38:33so hard for Serena Williams. Um,
38:36you know, gosh, she's had to fight so
38:38hard. What I say is she wakes up at 4:00
38:41a.m. She goes onto the tennis court.
38:42This is what she eats. This is how she
38:44trains. We've got to be like her. It's a
38:46very different thing. And what people
38:48Grit. I think this is it. Grit's a nice
38:50word. You know, what what people don't
38:53realize
38:55is in an effort to demonstrate
38:57compassion themselves
38:59and to make themselves feel better about
39:00their own privileges, they deny the
39:04kinds of conversations that they had
39:06when they were children to children who
39:09need those conversations all the more
39:11so. So, disadvantaged kids, minority
39:13kids, etc.
39:14Um, and that's because they think that
39:18in order to help these kids, they need
39:19quotas. You know, well, it's all right,
39:22let them fail at everything and then
39:23when they get to the top to, you know,
39:25finishing up, we'll just let them into
39:27the university and we'll give them that
39:28diploma because we'll tick that box and
39:30then we'll put them in that company
39:32because we'll tick that box.
39:34That's no way to live your life. You
39:35know, the way to live your life and have
39:37a successful life is to
39:40um, is to work for it. It's to graft.
39:43Like that's what makes life worth
39:44living. Um,
39:47trust fund kids all end up committing
39:49suicide or they're high on drugs.
39:51They're unhappy, you know? And they're
39:53unhappy because they have a trust fund.
39:56You Now, I'm not saying obviously
39:58there's a level of poverty that you go
39:59below that's unacceptable. So, I'm not
40:01saying that, but I'm saying you come
40:03from an ordinary family.
40:06That's where you need to get to a good
40:07school. The good school is your ticket,
40:10right? It's your ticket to everything
40:12because your parents don't speak English
40:14or they don't have books at home or they
40:15never take you to the theater and so on.
40:17So, you are depending on your teachers
40:20to change your life for you. And if your
40:22teachers are massively unionized and are
40:25marching in the school saying, "I'm not
40:26going to stay here past 3:00 and I'm not
40:28doing this and I'm not doing that and so
40:30on and so forth." Well, then who is
40:31there to save these kids, right? Now,
40:34look, I'm not saying teachers shouldn't
40:36be paid more. Maybe they should be. Um,
40:39I'm not saying teachers don't work in
40:40terrible conditions cuz they do. Uh, you
40:43know, the thing is is that the
40:44leadership in our schools is often
40:46lacking. So, teachers are battling it
40:48out in classrooms where the behavior is
40:51so bad.
40:52I've seen it.
40:52The There's nothing those I feel I feel
40:54for these teachers. I once went and gave
40:56um, went to a conference in Florida,
40:58spoke I spent a few days with some
40:59teachers there.
41:01The stories they told me, oh my
41:02goodness, it was just horrifying. I felt
41:04so sorry for them.
41:06And I was giving them advice, but their
41:08hearts were broken. Like they're
41:10They had no more resolve. They'd given
41:12up because they'd just been squashed by
41:15the system. Mhm. And so, if the teachers
41:17are like that, imagine what the kids are
41:18like, you know?
41:19Um,
41:20but it is possible to do as you've seen
41:22here.
41:23And look, not everybody's going to have
41:25it as as it is here, but there are big
41:28ticket things you can do in schools to
41:30change things for the better.
41:31But you have to be willing Look, I am
41:33hated by so many people.
41:35I just find that to be I just find that
41:37to be so
41:39Look, I don't know if you know, but our
41:40recent thing about the prayer issue.
41:43Like Look, I'm all over
41:45that. Tell me about that.
41:47I'm literally scared for my life. Yeah,
41:49tell me about the prayer thing. So,
41:52we have 50% of our kids are Muslim. Uh,
41:57and um,
41:59when we first started in 2014, we opened
42:01the school in 2014 with just year 7 and
42:03we've grown the school ever since. We
42:05now have 50% of our intake
42:07are Muslims. So, we've grown our Muslim
42:10intake.
42:11Um, and we've never had a prayer room.
42:13Um, I've always been very clear with
42:14families about us not having a prayer
42:16room. And you know, the Muslim families
42:17weigh it up and they think, "You know
42:18what?
42:19They don't have to come here, right?"
42:20No. They could go somewhere else. Okay.
42:22And so, I tell them I don't just tell
42:23them we don't have a prayer room. I tell
42:24them we have silent corridors. I tell
42:26them we have family lunch. I tell them
42:27that I tell them all the things that I
42:30think might bother them, not just Muslim
42:32families, I mean all the families.
42:33Because I know we're very different. And
42:35so, I tell them all of this.
42:37And then they come
42:39and they put up with it, you know? The
42:41Jehovah Witnesses put up with the fact
42:43that we read Shakespeare's Macbeth Oh,
42:46cuz there's witches in there.
42:47text. They don't like that. Some of the
42:49Hindu families have complained about the
42:51plates because they touch egg and they
42:53don't like that, you know?
42:54But everybody goes, "You know what? It's
42:56a multicultural community. It's
42:58multi-faith, multi-racial. In order for
43:00us all to get on, we're going to have to
43:02sacrifice." So, they sacrifice and it's
43:04fine. But
43:07uh, last year we did allow prayer in the
43:09yard. Um, because we don't have anything
43:12against prayer inherently, but and in
43:14the yard they're all mixed between races
43:17and so on. And I think that's really
43:19important. Schools don't think about
43:20this stuff. They allow enclaves to
43:22create, right? So, your as I say, LGBT
43:25group, black group, etc. As opposed to
43:28actively ensuring that kids are mixing
43:30with each other.
43:32Cuz that's what schools are meant to do.
43:33They're meant to socialize children so
43:34that they can be socialized adults who
43:37are able to interact with a whole
43:38variety of people. Okay, the prayer
43:40thing. And then the prayer thing. So, we
43:42allowed them to pray in the yard. Okay.
43:44A few kids started praying. And that's
43:46where you were right right outside.
43:47outside which is basically a car park
43:49cuz we don't have any grass or trees
43:51because we're in the middle of the inner
43:52city in an old office block.
43:54Um, and because of our ethos, we can't
43:56have First of all, the idea of a prayer
43:58room makes no sense. Um, because
44:02uh,
44:03we have 350 Muslims. I mean, we'd have
44:06to have several prayer rooms.
44:07Right. And we don't have the space for
44:08that. So, then we'd have to allow them
44:10into the classrooms as they are. Well,
44:12then that would mean removing all their
44:13bags and their coats that stay in there
44:15now. If kids are just roaming the halls,
44:17well, we don't allow kids to roam the
44:19halls cuz we're the strictest school in
44:20Britain. So, all of our ethos would go
44:23out the window if we did that. In the
44:24yard, fine. We didn't mind.
44:27But what happened was that I suppose
44:29people saw us from outside the gates. I
44:30don't really know, but um, a campaign
44:33started online. Thousands of people
44:35signed this petition, "Why don't they
44:36have a prayer room? You're a bunch of
44:37Islamophobes, etc."
44:39Which obviously we're not. I mean, we've
44:40grown our
44:41Muslim intake from 30% to 50%. My own
44:44grandmother was Muslim. Like
44:47it's just a silly thing to say.
44:49But the idea is we don't get what we if
44:50we what we want, you're a bunch of
44:52Islamophobes. Now, our kids weren't
44:54saying that. It was people on the
44:56outside.
44:57We started getting death threats. We had
44:59a bomb threat. Police had to come and
45:01search the school.
45:02Um, one of my black teachers was so
45:04badly racially abused, called the
45:05N-word, the C-word, uh, compared to a
45:08monkey, all kinds of horrible things
45:10that were sent to the school. Both she
45:12and I received death threats. She and I
45:13had to take uh,
45:15cars into school, you know, friends
45:17dropping us off and stuff.
45:19Um, she was so terrified. Uh, well, so
45:22was I terrified. Um,
45:25and eventually things calmed down. Why?
45:27Because we banned prayer. Now, that was
45:30on the outside coming into the inside,
45:32but within the school what was
45:33fascinating is that during Ramadan, some
45:36of the children fast. That's fine by us.
45:39Some of the children in this particular
45:41Ramadan, for 8 years remember, nobody
45:43prayed. We We allowed them to pray in
45:44the yard, but they never did.
45:46And then once the prayer started, more
45:48and more kids started praying. And then
45:51they would stand by the break hall food
45:53table and intimidate Muslims who wanted
45:57who wanted to eat, they didn't want to
45:59fast, and tell them that they were bad
46:01Muslims unless they ate the food, right?
46:04Uh, one girl started wearing a hijab.
46:06She didn't cover her head, but suddenly
46:07she was made to feel that she ought to.
46:09One girl dropped out of the choir
46:11because um, singing is haram. Uh, kids
46:14were then
46:16uh, being made to pray or being strongly
46:19encouraged, intimidated into it. The
46:21whole culture changed in the school. So,
46:24the governors that combined with the
46:27outside threats took the right decision
46:29I believe to um,
46:32to abolish prayer. And we did. And you
46:34know, almost instantly the school went
46:36back to normal.
46:38I mean, everybody with the joyful place
46:40that you just saw today, which you can't
46:41believe. Joyful would be a great word
46:43for that.
46:43That place over that week and a bit had
46:46changed, you know, completely. It was a
46:48totally different school. It felt more
46:50like a normal school, you know? And who
46:52who's giving you these death threats?
46:55I mean, is it the usual suspects?
46:57people out there. I don't know. People
46:58who were very upset to hear that um,
47:01we didn't have a prayer room. But as I
47:03say, we'd have to have lots of prayer
47:04rooms. Uh, we'd have to change our whole
47:07ethos. We could Michaela, the school as
47:10it is is incompatible
47:12with prayer rituals. So, people are
47:14allowed to pray in their heads
47:15obviously, but the prayer ritual
47:17happening can't take place.
47:20And now we've had to go to the high
47:21court, uh, face a judge,
47:24um,
47:24and
47:25hopefully, I mean, we're waiting for a
47:27verdict now. Hopefully, uh, the courts
47:30will side with us. But in the meantime,
47:32you know, everybody's on tender hooks. I
47:34am always worried when I'm on the tube,
47:37the subway. I'm looking around me,
47:39making sure nobody's near me because I
47:41don't really know what could happen, you
47:43know? And that's um,
47:46well, I think it's an unreasonable
47:48amount of stress to put on a head
47:50teacher or a principal, you know? I
47:53We should be able to just run our
47:54schools. And ultimately, like you say,
47:56how could anybody Honestly, there are so
47:58many people who hate me. So many people.
48:00I mean, there's the prayer bit, but
48:02let's ignore that.
48:03Just because
48:05Well, one of the big reasons is because
48:07we do really well.
48:08So, I know every August we come out with
48:10our results.
48:12And every time we come out with the
48:14results and we're really excited about
48:15them cuz they're so good,
48:17I say to everybody,
48:18you know, brace for impact.
48:21Tin hats on, take cover. Because I know
48:24as soon as I tweet that out, for 1 day
48:27it'll go and it'll be fine. And then the
48:29attacks start coming.
48:31And the vitriol. I mean, they're
48:33horrible, you know?
48:35So, two questions. One, who who's Who
48:37are these attacks from? Other
48:38Random people on Twitter.
48:40But they tend to be people on the left.
48:42They don't like um, what we do because
48:44it's traditional.
48:46They especially I would say don't like
48:48um, a black woman running a school with
48:51traditional small c conservative values
48:53because we black people are meant to
48:55hold uh, leftist views. And if we don't
48:58hold them, then we have betrayed um,
49:01our saviors. Our white saviors who, you
49:04know,
49:05I don't know, saved us from racism or
49:07whatever it is. Um, and I found that
49:10when we were setting up uh, the school
49:12actually. It took us 3 and 1/2 years to
49:13set up the school cuz it was such a
49:14fight. Uh, we had to move to three
49:16different areas in London in trying to
49:18set it up. The reason is because I gave
49:20a speech at the Conservative Party
49:21Conference in 2010
49:23where, you know, if you Google Katharine
49:25Birbalsingh, you know, Conservative
49:27Party speech on YouTube, you will find
49:29it. It's only 5 minutes.
49:31But in that speech, I talked about black
49:34kids failing in school because of what
49:36the white liberal does to him.
49:38Um I talked about
49:41uh
49:42Oh, I say about kids claiming that they
49:44have anger management and all sorts that
49:46it stops them from actually fulfilling
49:48their potential because of this victim
49:51mentality. I didn't use the word victim
49:53uh but that was what I was talking
49:55about.
49:56And I I ended up losing my job.
49:59Um
50:00now, look, they didn't fire me but I
50:02resigned. I had to resign in the end
50:04because there was so much media
50:05scrutiny. I was so hated um
50:08by the establishment. So this is 2010
50:10just really before can't being canceled
50:12became a thing but I was essentially
50:14canceled. I then had to find an
50:15alternative way of um trying to make a
50:18living. I'd only ever worked in
50:20inner-city schools and it's what I love.
50:22I could have gone to work in the private
50:23sector but I didn't want to do that. So
50:26because I love working with kids who
50:28come from more disadvantaged homes. So I
50:31am I ended up setting up my own school.
50:33So you guys have had charter schools
50:35since the '90s whereas it was in 2010
50:38that we started having free schools we
50:40call them but it's the same as charter
50:42schools but we're not in charge of our
50:43own admissions. So you know, that's one
50:46thing charter schools are different
50:47because they have a separate lottery
50:49that people apply to whereas free
50:51schools in this country we are just
50:52given our intake by the local council.
50:54Um it took us 3 and 1/2 years because we
50:57would do I would do an event in
51:01uh you know, inner-city part of London.
51:03I would um
51:05my whole steering group was with me
51:07and there would be protesters outside
51:10with placards calling me a Tory teacher
51:12cuz I worked at I I'd spoken at the
51:15Conservative Party conference and of
51:16course they're called Tories. And so
51:18they would shout abuse at me.
51:20Um they sent me racist emails. I mean,
51:22just the most awful stuff and um and
51:26this is these are people on the left. Uh
51:27we had to hire bouncers at one event
51:29because we were so worried about the
51:30possible violence that would ensue.
51:33I would talk to these crowds well, I say
51:35crowds. I would go out. I'd give out all
51:37these leaflets to black moms
51:40uh who would say, "Oh yes, I want
51:41another choice of school. Thank you.
51:42Thank you." They'd come along to the
51:44event and all these white people would
51:46have been busted from outside of London
51:50who live out in some area where there
51:51are no black people. They'd come in.
51:53They'd sit amongst those black moms and
51:56then when I'd get up to talk, they would
51:58start shouting things in order to drown
52:00me out so that the moms couldn't hear
52:01me. I remember one woman standing up and
52:04saying, "You betrayed us when you went
52:06to speak at the Conservative Party
52:07conference." I'm like, "Who are you?
52:09Betrayed you? I don't even know who you
52:10are." But in her mind she is a white
52:13woman of the left and I betrayed her as
52:16a black woman going and speaking at the
52:17Conservative Party conference. Now, I
52:18have to say I'm not a conservative. I'm
52:21not a member of the Conservative Party.
52:22I'm a small c conservative.
52:24Unfortunately, I would say there are a
52:25whole lot of conservatives out there who
52:26are not small c conservative. I mean, is
52:28Donald Trump a small c conservative?
52:30Most definitely not, you know. Um
52:32I am a small c conservative and that's
52:33because I believe in those small c
52:35conservative values of personal
52:36responsibility, of duty towards others,
52:38of family, of um
52:41belief in one's country and anyway,
52:43various things like that. I have those
52:45beliefs. I want very much for the
52:47children in my care to have those
52:49beliefs and I would say that one of the
52:52reason so partly it's because of my
52:54color that they attack me so much
52:56because I'm meant to think in a
52:57particular kind of way and they hate the
52:58fact that I don't. Um and two, I say
53:02this stuff. So like I I I I try and
53:05expose the left for their racism because
53:07the way in which everything is set up is
53:09the right are racist, the left are good
53:11people and that's not true. You know,
53:12the fact is there's racism across both
53:15the left and the right. I of course
53:16experience most of it from the left but
53:18of course there is racism on the right
53:19too.
53:20Um
53:21and the problem I have is that the right
53:23never want to recognize racism. So if I
53:26talk about my experiences um in fact,
53:29we've just seen it. I just saw uh that
53:31Nikki Haley talking about her um
53:34experiences as being mixed Indian and
53:36white growing up and that some beauty
53:38pageant or something she was in and how
53:40um
53:41they didn't know where to put her
53:42because was she wasn't black, she wasn't
53:44white, what were they going to do with
53:45her? And the right the the immediate
53:48thing is there's backlash with the
53:49right. You know, how dare she talk about
53:51racism, you know, uh she's playing the
53:53victim card. No, she's not playing the
53:55victim card. She's just describing what
53:56her experiences were like when she was a
53:58child and so she's saying she
53:59understands what racism is. There's
54:01nothing wrong in explaining about racism
54:04but unfortunately nowadays because the
54:06left have made racism or any kind of,
54:09you know,
54:10um issue that someone might have that's
54:12an ism, let's say,
54:14because they've made it so ridiculous um
54:17when I say ridiculous, what I mean is
54:20uh such a hot potato where everything is
54:22racist, you know, people like Ibram X.
54:24Kendi and so on which is just
54:26anti-racism which makes everybody
54:28racist, you know.
54:30Uh they've made it so
54:33uh impossible for anyone to have a
54:35sensible conversation around race that
54:37the right's reaction is just victim
54:39victim, you're you're you're you're
54:40you're claiming victimhood. So you can't
54:42actually talk about it and then the
54:44people on the left they only recognize
54:46the kind of racism that is not theirs.
54:49They only recognize what they think of
54:52as right-wing racism. They never look
54:54inward and think, "Well, what things are
54:56we doing on the left that are actually
54:58really quite racist?" Like insisting
55:00that all of us black people vote on the
55:01left or insisting that all of us black
55:03people
55:04hold certain values. Like why can't we
55:07have the freedoms of white people to be
55:08able to think the way that we want to
55:09think?
55:10All right, so I'm having a lot of
55:11problems in this conversation. I'm I'm
55:14going to tell you what I'm having
55:14problems with and maybe you can help me
55:16understand.
55:16Okay. Okay. So
55:19you have actual data.
55:21You have evidence about for example,
55:24test scores. You have actual data about
55:26outcomes.
55:28This is not the these are not the
55:30musings of deranged people. These are
55:33this is evidence like you have evidence
55:37so that an independent neutral observer
55:40can look at this evidence with like a
55:41discrete number of Yes. Okay. So
55:45what I'm having
55:47what
55:49what I'm having
55:51Mhm. I know.
55:52It makes no sense. It So So
55:55Look, I used to think, I'll tell you,
55:56when we were setting up the school and
55:58fought for so long to do it, I used to
56:00think, "Build it and they will come."
56:02That's what I used to think. And to some
56:03extent that's true. We get 800 visitors
56:05a year, you know.
56:06Um and there are teachers who have
56:08changed their practices in their
56:09classroom for the better.
56:11But I really thought
56:13I'll build a school and then people will
56:15be able to see the things that work and
56:17then they'll think, "Great." And then
56:19we'll have a revolution.
56:20Right, right. That has not happened.
56:22So So
56:24Okay. All right. So you have now
56:25outcomes of students and I would assume
56:28like test scores you said. And And you
56:31you you have a I'm looking around and I
56:34see you know, the graffiti on the
56:35buildings, etc. And you have And the
56:38train tracks, right?
56:39And the train And the train tracks. I
56:40know that I saw the teacher screaming.
56:42know yard. No no yard. No grass. No
56:45trees. No sports hall. Nothing.
56:47And you're still producing these
56:48outcomes and then I would assume that
56:50you have similar the demographics
56:53are are similar and that you have
56:57test results and data and outcomes and
56:59students percentage to go on to
57:01university, etc.
57:02Yes.
57:03So is the reaction Does do the left
57:05react to the data? Do the right react to
57:08the data? Do they say, "Well, I might
57:10not like the fact that they have silent
57:12corridors."
57:14They tend to accuse us. They'll say,
57:17"You've hand-picked your intake." Well,
57:19that's impossible. It's illegal.
57:20I'd be in prison. Like I can't
57:22hand-pick. It's the council that gives
57:23us our intake.
57:24Right. Uh so they make up lies about us.
57:26So do Okay.
57:27Do they speak to you directly about
57:29No. So this will be on Twitter and
57:30things. No, they never speak to me
57:31directly and they never come to visit
57:33either.
57:33Neither the right nor the left or just
57:35one of those? Conservative people come
57:37here all the time. And teachers come
57:39here. So no, some teachers who are left
57:40lefty teachers would come here and see
57:42the school. But the people who hate us
57:44will never visit.
57:45So the people who criticize you on the
57:47left they don't they won't Are they
57:50willing to have conversations with you
57:51about it?
57:51Mhm. No.
57:53No.
57:53And their emails haven't just got lost.
57:56What? What do you mean? Well, I mean
57:59it's an inside joke for real. Okay.
58:01So
58:03So So they won't they won't talk to you.
58:05They refuse to have a conversation with
58:07you. Yet you have the data.
58:09conversations on Twitter. Okay. Well,
58:11that's not a conversation, right? That's
58:13not a conversation. That's not a
58:15conversation.
58:15right, right.
58:17So No, they're not willing to look at
58:19what we do.
58:20They're just not willing. They just say
58:24They say things like
58:26I want the media spotlight.
58:29Um
58:30I'm self-obsessed or they say
58:33Mention that.
58:36Well, me who comes into school every day
58:38at 6:45 a.m. to run a school for a bunch
58:41of kids, you know? Like you know, at
58:44first when we started this, they all
58:45said cuz I'd spoken at the Conservative
58:47Party conference, they all said that I
58:48definitely wanted to be a politician.
58:50That was why I was doing what I was
58:51doing. They soon had to abandon that
58:53accusation.
58:54idea if you became a politician. But
58:56anyway, keep so
58:57Well, I The fact is they had to. So
58:59they're always accusing me of different
59:00things. But then in the end, obviously I
59:03didn't want to be a politician because
59:04I'm still in school.
59:06Um I mean, they say all sorts of things.
59:08The only reason why you're succeeding is
59:09cuz government is helping you. Well, in
59:11which way is government helping us, you
59:12know? They've blocked everything we've
59:14tried to do. So obviously they're not
59:16helping us.
59:17the response to that be, "Well, let's
59:20replicate this model and have government
59:22help other people so we can replicate
59:24the you know, we can have similar
59:26results." Look, there are a small number
59:28of people on the left who think like
59:29that. So I wouldn't want to say that
59:32everyone on the left is against what we
59:34do. There are some who are supportive of
59:36us, who like what we do, and then they
59:38copy us in their own schools and so on.
59:40Um, or they argue for us. So, there are
59:42we have supporters on Twitter who are
59:44who are people of the left who will
59:46argue with the people who are further on
59:49the left to say, "Look, they're doing a
59:51good job. Leave them alone." Um,
59:54I am constantly put in the press by
59:57things that we do. So, this prayer issue
59:59is one thing. We we wanted a media ban.
1:00:02There was a media ban, which we argued
1:00:04for,
1:00:05but you know, as as best we could in
1:00:06court. Um,
1:00:08but then the judge decided to lift the
1:00:09media ban and allowed them the press to
1:00:12name both me and the school. They're not
1:00:14allowed to name the teachers or the girl
1:00:16or the mother. But, um,
1:00:18look, he had to weigh up my interests
1:00:20against the public interest and power to
1:00:22the people through the press, you know.
1:00:24I kind of get that, and there is huge
1:00:26public interest in this story. Um, but
1:00:29it does put me at risk, and it also
1:00:33throws me into the limelight where I'm
1:00:34forced to defend what we're doing in
1:00:36terms of prayer. But, there are other
1:00:38times when I've been thrown into the
1:00:39limelight so many times, um,
1:00:41because what we do is so sort of
1:00:43scandalous, you know?
1:00:44scandalous in what way? Well, banning
1:00:46prayer, for instance, or uh having
1:00:48silent corridors. That was a big deal at
1:00:50the time. Or, being vegetarian. So,
1:00:53we're vegetarian, uh
1:00:54That lunch I ate was vegetarian?
1:00:56Yes.
1:00:57No kidding.
1:00:58I was wondering what that mystery meat
1:00:59was. Now I know. It's interesting. Yeah.
1:01:02Yeah, it's vegetarian because
1:01:04uh we want the children to be able to
1:01:06sit at tables where there are Muslim
1:01:08kids and Hindu kids and so on. But, if
1:01:10you eat meat but no pork, meat but no
1:01:12beef, everybody's eating different
1:01:13things, it can't work um, in a
1:01:16multicultural and multi-faith and
1:01:17multi-racial society. If you want that
1:01:20to work, you have to actively make it
1:01:22work. And the problem with the West I
1:01:25find,
1:01:26America, with here in Britain as well,
1:01:30you know, you just you you you just
1:01:31allow people to just be any which way.
1:01:34And look, this is my problem with the
1:01:36libertarian. So,
1:01:38look, as much as obviously I believe in
1:01:40freedom and I'm against cancel culture.
1:01:42I was canceled myself, so I'm not I'm
1:01:44not arguing for that.
1:01:46The libertarian doesn't understand that
1:01:48when you just say,
1:01:50"Everybody do whatever you want. Freedom
1:01:51for all."
1:01:52The problem with that is that that
1:01:54leaves a culture vacuum and a leadership
1:01:57vacuum in any country.
1:01:59And that vacuum gets filled by the
1:02:01extreme left. That's what happens.
1:02:04And so, when the libertarian looks
1:02:05around and says, "Why are all these kids
1:02:07being taught to hate themselves, white
1:02:09kids being taught to hate themselves in
1:02:10schools?" Or, "Why are all these uh
1:02:13black kids being taught that this isn't
1:02:15their country?" Or, whatever.
1:02:17When that happens, it's because the
1:02:19libertarian argued for absolute freedom.
1:02:22Now, freedom is good, but you need to
1:02:25have social cohesion within that
1:02:27freedom. And you need to have some
1:02:29social conservative values that enable
1:02:33us to do the right thing. And what do
1:02:35you mean by that? So, what I mean by
1:02:36that is
1:02:37if it's just everybody be free, do
1:02:40whatever you want. Well, you know what?
1:02:41Men, they tend to like having lots of
1:02:43women. That that's like biologically,
1:02:46right? That's that's what they enjoy.
1:02:48And if there is no social pressure
1:02:52around them to say, "Look, it's quite
1:02:55nice to get married and stay married for
1:02:57your whole life, and this is something
1:02:58that you ought to do for the sake of
1:03:00your children, for instance." Um, men
1:03:03are less likely to do it. So, one of the
1:03:05reasons why
1:03:06uh there are fewer and fewer people
1:03:07getting married, and fewer and fewer and
1:03:09more and more people getting divorced is
1:03:11because there is this sense of, "Well,
1:03:13I'm free. I can do whatever I like." And
1:03:17people used to have a sense of shame.
1:03:20There used to be a sense of I need to I
1:03:24need to go and see my grandmother, not
1:03:25because I really want to see my
1:03:26grandmother right now, but because I
1:03:29ought to, because it's the right thing
1:03:30to do, you know? I I'm going to go to
1:03:33church or whichever institution, you
1:03:35know, religious institution you want,
1:03:38not necessarily because I really really
1:03:39want to, but because I ought to, because
1:03:41this is what I do. It's the ritual.
1:03:43Every Sunday I get up and I put on my
1:03:44Sunday best and I go to church, and I
1:03:47take a humble position in the world.
1:03:49Now, look, I'm not a Christian. I'm one
1:03:50of those people who's free, right? I'm
1:03:52free to to not be religious and so on.
1:03:55But, I'm just questioning the the wisdom
1:03:58in all of this, because the rituals that
1:04:00we used to have as a community, going to
1:04:03Sunday, you know, wearing your Sunday
1:04:04best, going to church, or or um
1:04:08uh having dinner with your family every
1:04:10evening and everyone eating together and
1:04:13sharing stories as opposed to everybody
1:04:15just being on their phone and doing
1:04:16their own thing.
1:04:17the corrosion of those rituals has had a
1:04:19deleterious effect on society. Yeah. It
1:04:22it it breaks us all apart. Um, and it
1:04:25stops us from
1:04:27we just all think it's all about
1:04:28freedom. And look, I don't want to argue
1:04:30against freedom, especially in this
1:04:32culture of trying to clamp down on
1:04:34freedom in particular for adults. And
1:04:35like I say, the left get it the wrong
1:04:36way around, where the, you know, the
1:04:39children are are allowed to be as free
1:04:40as they like, and the adults are are
1:04:42stopped from being free.
1:04:44But,
1:04:45freedom only works in an environment
1:04:48where we're able to agree on the shared
1:04:49values,
1:04:51and we're able to uh
1:04:54look down on each other if we behave
1:04:56badly, you know?
1:04:57Yeah, so one of the things I asked our
1:04:59tour guides
1:05:01was if there's bullying in the schools.
1:05:04And they said, "No."
1:05:06And then I asked them like, how are gay
1:05:08people? Are there, you know, how are the
1:05:09how are the gay kids treated here? And
1:05:11then she was like, "What?"
1:05:14I was thinking, I wonder what she said.
1:05:16Yeah, she was like
1:05:18she was just
1:05:20thought it was a bizarre question. Like,
1:05:21they're not treated any differently than
1:05:23anybody else. I mean, that's the
1:05:24interpretation that I got, though she
1:05:26wasn't explicit in that. Is that is that
1:05:28right? Yeah, well, I mean, the thing is
1:05:32the kids are kind to each other.
1:05:33Yeah. They're taught to be kind and to
1:05:35mix with each other across sexuality,
1:05:37across race, across religion, whatever
1:05:39it is. So, they don't really think about
1:05:41it. And they won't be thinking, you see
1:05:43how the the reason the reason why she'll
1:05:45have been confused, she'll have been
1:05:46thinking,
1:05:47"Well, I don't know. There's no group of
1:05:48gay kids."
1:05:49Yeah, exactly.
1:05:50said, "Well, what about the black kids?"
1:05:51she would have thought, "Well, there's
1:05:52no group of black kids." There's no
1:05:54group of Chinese kids. I don't really
1:05:56think about these sorts of things cuz
1:05:57they're all just kids together.
1:05:59and you think one of the
1:06:00the left
1:06:02that's the problem with having people
1:06:04who won't speak to you about cuz you
1:06:05don't really know what their criticisms
1:06:06are, but so we have to kind of figure
1:06:09out what their criticisms are even
1:06:11though we don't know what exactly they
1:06:13are. So, do you think the problem is
1:06:15that the left is upset that at this
1:06:19school the kids aren't breaking into
1:06:21identity groups? Well, that's too
1:06:23specific. Yes, that's one of the things
1:06:25that they won't like, but Yeah, no, no,
1:06:26like would that be a problem? Like, they
1:06:28think that like we should have a
1:06:30contingent of like
1:06:31that woman saying to me, "But, you've
1:06:32got to tell them about racism."
1:06:35And I was saying, "No, I really don't
1:06:36need to be talking about racism. I I
1:06:38that is not something
1:06:40You see, what I always say to black
1:06:41people, Yeah. whenever black people are
1:06:42saying, "We need more black history in
1:06:44schools. We need black culture taught,
1:06:46etc." I'm always saying to them, "You
1:06:48really want black culture to be taught
1:06:50by a 23-year-old white woman? Is that
1:06:52what you want?"
1:06:52Yeah. Why aren't you just teaching your
1:06:54own kids your own stuff? Like, the fact
1:06:57is, you come from different homes, you
1:06:59might eat different foods, you might
1:07:00have different religions, but you don't
1:07:02depend on the school to teach your
1:07:04stuff. Schools meant to teach algebra.
1:07:07We're meant to teach Shakespeare. We're
1:07:09meant to teach the the history of the
1:07:11country that you've grown up in, you
1:07:12know? And geography and science and so
1:07:15on. That's what schools are meant to do.
1:07:17I don't understand this idea that
1:07:19schools are meant to be teaching all
1:07:20about the various isms and the
1:07:23the culture wars. We're not talking We
1:07:25don't talk about the culture wars here.
1:07:26We're talking too busy teaching algebra.
1:07:28And so, I know you were saying, "Oh, you
1:07:30know, it looks like when you're going
1:07:32around that they that they have a great
1:07:34curriculum." Our kids know more than any
1:07:37kid out there, okay? Like, they are so
1:07:40impressive. Honestly, I don't talk to
1:07:42them about history cuz they know more
1:07:43about history than I do. I'm serious.
1:07:45Like, they know
1:07:48gosh, I mean, they're just so
1:07:50knowledgeable and so clever. And that's
1:07:53because their teachers have taught them
1:07:54so well.
1:07:55And um
1:07:56And and again, to hammer this home, this
1:07:59is not a magical thing. There's a
1:08:01there's a mechanism behind this that can
1:08:03be duplicated.
1:08:04Yes, absolutely. The the
1:08:07the this one of the sticking points
1:08:10would be there would have to be a value
1:08:12for people to want to know certain
1:08:14things. Like, E.D. Hirsch.
1:08:16Yes.
1:08:17Yeah. Yes, E.D. Hirsch. So, there we go.
1:08:19So, E.D. Hirsch, when I lost my job and
1:08:22all of that happened, E.D. Hirsch, um, I
1:08:25read E.D. Hirsch for the first time and
1:08:26thought, "Where has this man been all my
1:08:28life?"
1:08:28Right, right.
1:08:29And I had the pleasure honor of my life
1:08:31to go to a conference in Amsterdam, uh
1:08:35some years ago, uh a few years ago, and
1:08:38I gave a talk, and E.D. Hirsch also gave
1:08:40a talk.
1:08:40Oh, wow. And um, you know, he was 91 at
1:08:43the time, so uh and when I got off the
1:08:46stage, he came up to me and gave me a
1:08:48kiss. Oh, wow. You know, because he was
1:08:50so thrilled by what I was saying, you
1:08:52know? And
1:08:54because, you know, he's a man who writes
1:08:56books, whereas I'm the practitioner on
1:08:58the ground doing it.
1:09:00Right.
1:09:00And here I was saying that what he says
1:09:03works, you know? And um, it so works,
1:09:06you know?
1:09:06So, summarize what it is that works.
1:09:08E.D. Hirsch. So,
1:09:09you know, he has various books. The
1:09:10knowledge deficit is one of his books.
1:09:12Kids don't know anything. Especially the
1:09:14poorer they are, the more inner city
1:09:16they are, and so on. Gosh, go and ask
1:09:19them, you know, American kids. My
1:09:20goodness, do they know where Europe is?
1:09:23Do they know They don't know anything.
1:09:24did they know where Canada is last 40
1:09:2740%? Yeah.
1:09:28the reason why they don't know that is
1:09:29because nobody's taught it to them
1:09:30because they're in classrooms where
1:09:31nobody's learning anything.
1:09:33Um
1:09:34They're learning about race and gender
1:09:36and trans trans status. They're learning
1:09:37about that.
1:09:38That that's the thing. Why are we
1:09:40teaching this stuff? That should not be
1:09:41taught.
1:09:42We don't You only have a certain amount
1:09:44of time in the school day. We There's
1:09:46not enough time to do all the teaching
1:09:48of the different subjects that we need
1:09:49to teach them.
1:09:50So, it's because it's what you said
1:09:52before. If you don't value that
1:09:53knowledge, then you think what's the big
1:09:55deal? I also think that adults um
1:09:57overestimate their own like the lack of
1:10:01knowledge they had. And they
1:10:03overestimate what kids know. So, when
1:10:05you when you say to them kids don't know
1:10:07where Paris is, over here that, you
1:10:09know, Paris is next door.
1:10:11Um or they don't know the capital of
1:10:12France.
1:10:14People say, "Oh, come on, of course they
1:10:15know that." We say, "No, no, no, they
1:10:17really don't."
1:10:18Yeah.
1:10:18If you don't teach it to them, how are
1:10:20they meant to know?
1:10:21So,
1:10:22that what E.D. Hirsch is arguing against
1:10:24is the idea that kids just know stuff.
1:10:27Like people just assume that the
1:10:29knowledge is inside the child. And this
1:10:30started with Rousseau. The idea of
1:10:32drawing
1:10:33yeah. I was I was Socrates, but anyway,
1:10:35go ahead. Socrates.
1:10:36It It But Rousseau's made it popular.
1:10:39This idea of pulling the knowledge out
1:10:41of the child.
1:10:42And this idea that you are not the
1:10:47the whatever it is, the sage on the
1:10:50stage. You're the guide on the side, you
1:10:52know?
1:10:53And so people then teachers are then
1:10:55facilitators of learning. I'm the guide.
1:10:57direct instruction, yeah, yeah. So, the
1:10:59opposite of direct instruction. So,
1:11:00direct instruction is I'm telling you
1:11:02what you need to know.
1:11:03The guides on the side are saying you
1:11:05all teach each other. This is
1:11:06child-centered learning.
1:11:07Kind of more constructive as
1:11:08pedagogical. That's right. So,
1:11:12over the last 40 50 years that's been
1:11:13going on.
1:11:15But you didn't notice it so much in the
1:11:16'80s because it hadn't been going on
1:11:17that long.
1:11:18Um but you know, like when Whitney
1:11:20Houston talks about the children are our
1:11:22future,
1:11:23she just sang that song. Nowadays,
1:11:26um and she says, "Let them lead the way"
1:11:28is what she follows with, right? So, I
1:11:30believe very much that children are our
1:11:31future. I just don't think they should
1:11:32be leading the way. We as adults need to
1:11:34lead the way. So, I started off by
1:11:35saying adult authority. We've lost adult
1:11:37authority. So, she sang that song in
1:11:391980-something. Nowadays, that's the
1:11:42mantra.
1:11:43Children should lead.
1:11:45So, children are leading in schools. And
1:11:47I would argue
1:11:48um that actually one of the reasons why
1:11:51we have all of this victimhood stuff and
1:11:53critical race theory and all the rest of
1:11:55it
1:11:55is precisely because children are
1:11:57leading, right? So, when you have
1:12:00children leading, they are looking for
1:12:02the excuses to excuse why they haven't
1:12:04done their homework, to excuse
1:12:06why, you know, I remember when George
1:12:09Floyd happened,
1:12:10which I mean, we could get into all the
1:12:11business of it, you know, um
1:12:14Chauvin didn't even actually kill him,
1:12:16you know.
1:12:17Uh I mean, anyway, when I think of that
1:12:20summer and the madness that went went
1:12:22what went on. Here in Britain, kids at
1:12:25Oxford University,
1:12:27black kids, were told that they could
1:12:30get an extension on their exams and so
1:12:33on uh because of George Floyd's death.
1:12:37What does George Floyd have to do with
1:12:39us? It is just crazy. Now, It certainly
1:12:42is.
1:12:43And it's this claim of victimhood that
1:12:47that then prevents real conversations
1:12:49around racism from happening. The
1:12:51conversation I was saying where I was
1:12:52saying, "Isn't it interesting? I get a
1:12:53very different uh reaction to white
1:12:56people who So, there was a white guy
1:12:58here,
1:12:59uh Toby Young, who set up a
1:13:01school." Right. So, he set up a school,
1:13:03similar idea of knowledge being central
1:13:06to it and so on.
1:13:07He didn't get the pushback I got. He
1:13:09didn't get people protesting outside his
1:13:11open events. He didn't get anything like
1:13:13the kind of hatred that I got. And why
1:13:15is that? Cuz he's a white guy. So, white
1:13:17guys are allowed to be conservative.
1:13:18Black woman is not allowed to be. You
1:13:20know, but I can't then say that without
1:13:22the right saying to me that I'm claiming
1:13:23to be some kind of victim. Look, am I
1:13:25victim? Have I let anything stop me? No,
1:13:27I keep going. But it's also interesting
1:13:30to see how it's not just the right that
1:13:32can be racist, it's the left that can be
1:13:34racist. And the left will never accept
1:13:37that. And I find that too many black
1:13:40people um
1:13:42you know, they're just sort of
1:13:44they're still in that mindset of
1:13:45thinking that the way forward for us is
1:13:49to believe in the left mantra. When in
1:13:52fact, the leftist mantra has completely
1:13:54destroyed us. You know, when I think
1:13:56about the welfare state and the damage
1:13:58it's done, and obviously I'm not arguing
1:13:59for children to be starving on the
1:14:01street. And I'm obviously not arguing
1:14:02for there to be no catch at all.
1:14:04Yeah, yeah, yeah. But
1:14:06we can see when we look at the stats on
1:14:09um
1:14:10marriage rates for the black family, you
1:14:12can see that in America and how that was
1:14:14completely destroyed by Johnson and the
1:14:17introduction of the welfare state. We
1:14:19can see how um
1:14:22the the It's the mentality. I mean, I've
1:14:24worked with this all my life in the
1:14:26inner city where kids I mean, not here
1:14:29because obviously we're very different.
1:14:31But before working here
1:14:33or before setting up the school, um it
1:14:36was the case that
1:14:38uh
1:14:38I would meet kids all the time in the
1:14:41inner city, girls who would say to me,
1:14:43"Oh, well, you know, maybe I could get
1:14:45pregnant and then I'll get a free flat
1:14:47and that kind of thing." Like it was
1:14:49something that they would talk about as
1:14:50an option, you know, for them.
1:14:52Um where moms would come to me, gosh, I
1:14:55remember moms regularly coming to me and
1:14:58saying how the local council would make
1:15:01them do parenting classes um
1:15:04because their kid was spinning out of
1:15:05control. And the council would be giving
1:15:07them advice to only praise their child
1:15:10and never punish their child. So, they
1:15:12were giving them And then the mothers
1:15:13would be saying to me, "But how can I
1:15:15praise her when she's doing all the
1:15:16wrong things? This is crazy, you know?"
1:15:18Like So, the state in many ways, not
1:15:22just by giving out welfare, by giving
1:15:23out advice, by setting various norms for
1:15:26families, right? By taxing people if
1:15:30they are living together. So,
1:15:32uh where you're taxed more as a couple
1:15:35and you're better off if you split,
1:15:37well, then it ensures that families are
1:15:39split apart by the state. There are so
1:15:41many ways in which the state undermines
1:15:44the stuff that helps people. So, if you
1:15:47look at Chinese kids and think, "Why do
1:15:48they do really well?" Well, guess what?
1:15:50They tend to be raised in two-parent
1:15:51families. They tend to work really hard.
1:15:55They tend to not see themselves as
1:15:56victims. They tend to um
1:15:59have an Eastern mindset, which I
1:16:01referred to at the beginning, which is
1:16:03uh
1:16:04you you know, if a kid
1:16:07Once I said this at a conference,
1:16:09if a Western kid uh struggles at
1:16:11something and works really hard for it
1:16:14and gets it,
1:16:16the parent will say, "Well done. You're
1:16:18really clever." Good job. And they'll
1:16:20say, "You're really clever" is what
1:16:21they'll say. They'll celebrate his
1:16:23brains.
1:16:23Right. The Eastern kid, I'd said in this
1:16:26conference, I said if a Chinese kid does
1:16:28that, works really hard, the parent will
1:16:30say, "Well done. You worked really
1:16:32hard."
1:16:33So, that means when the kid then comes
1:16:35across another situation that he finds
1:16:38difficult, the Eastern kid thinks, "If I
1:16:41work hard, I'll get it." The Western kid
1:16:43thinks,
1:16:45"Am I clever enough to do this?"
1:16:49Well, if the black kid has been told
1:16:51well done, blah, blah, he'll also think
1:16:52the same thing as the white kid. But if
1:16:54the black kid has been told by the media
1:16:56and by everybody that life is so
1:16:58difficult for him and the man is against
1:17:01him,
1:17:01is set up against him.
1:17:02then why is he going to work? He's not
1:17:04going to do his homework. So, I've seen
1:17:05this all my life. What is the point of
1:17:07working if the system is set up against
1:17:09you? And the only way you can make it in
1:17:11life is if you work really hard as a
1:17:12kid. Now, look, I've I could have gone
1:17:15into the private sector. So, for people
1:17:17watching this thinking, "Oh, you know,
1:17:18she's some right-wing loon." Look,
1:17:22every day I'm in school at 6:45 a.m.
1:17:24I've been doing this for 25 years. Only
1:17:26ever working in the inner city with kids
1:17:28from disadvantaged backgrounds.
1:17:29I'm just telling you something like we
1:17:31I'm telling you we cannot listen to
1:17:32these people anymore. They have
1:17:33literally nothing to contribute
1:17:35whatsoever. They won't have
1:17:37conversations. They have nothing to
1:17:39contribute. I'm completely done with
1:17:40them. Yeah. So, I'm I'm I'm We can just
1:17:43wipe that off the table. They're in
1:17:45make-believe land. They're playing with
1:17:46each other in make-believe land.
1:17:48say that, so many of them are teachers.
1:17:50Okay.
1:17:50So, in my field,
1:17:52I can't just wipe them off. I have to
1:17:54engage. I have to try and persuade them.
1:17:57Cuz if I don't persuade them, then all
1:17:59of these kids, in particular the more
1:18:01disadvantaged kids, are being failed.
1:18:03And I have tried I have persuaded some
1:18:06of them. That has happened.
1:18:08And I know why you say, "Forget it. We
1:18:10can't deal with these people." And I
1:18:11know that in America, there are some of
1:18:13those people who are just off the charts
1:18:15crazy, you know? I know that's the case.
1:18:18But there are some people There's a
1:18:19whole bunch of people. So, there's the
1:18:20off-the-charts crazy people. But there's
1:18:22a whole bunch of people here who are on
1:18:24the left who are just They're the
1:18:27Overton window has been moved. So,
1:18:29they've been pulled in that direction.
1:18:31And they don't want to be seen as bad
1:18:32people, you know? They So, they put the
1:18:34black box up on Instagram because they
1:18:36feel that they ought to. And they um
1:18:38they just don't talk about trans issues
1:18:40because they don't want to, you know,
1:18:42they just don't want to be seen to be
1:18:43some kind of bigot, you know? Um Do you
1:18:45think they value evidence? Like I'm
1:18:48again coming back to the outcomes of the
1:18:50school. Cuz if they were sincere,
1:18:51thoughtful, honest people, they would
1:18:54look at the evidence and have a
1:18:55conversation. Do you think they would
1:18:57have a conversation about what the
1:18:58evidence is? And I would my my argument
1:19:01to you would be it is irrelevant whether
1:19:03this is on the right and the left. What
1:19:04is the outcome?
1:19:05Yes. Yes. And but And there are people
1:19:07who think like that. And then they look
1:19:09at us. And then they Well, that's how
1:19:10everybody should think. What's What's
1:19:11the evidence? Yeah. And it
1:19:14Is the earth warming from from carbon
1:19:17Is it anthropogenic? Then we can talk
1:19:19about what to do about it from policy
1:19:21Then maybe conservative but like the
1:19:24evidence should never be politicized. It
1:19:26should just be what's the What are the
1:19:27outcomes of the school? What are the
1:19:28test scores? How many kids come in? How
1:19:30many
1:19:30Yeah, but you say that because all of
1:19:32our values are small-c conservative.
1:19:34Now, the thing is it used to be the case
1:19:35that the left had those small-c
1:19:37conservative values. So, my father uh
1:19:40very much a man on the left comes from
1:19:42Guyana in South America um was friends
1:19:46with their president Cheddi Jagan at the
1:19:48time was a communist you know, like
1:19:50these are outright communists. My
1:19:52father's very much a small-c
1:19:53conservative. The reason why I'm a
1:19:54small-c conservative is I was brought up
1:19:56in a small-c conservative household
1:19:57which frankly I have to say a lot of
1:20:00black people in America, Caribbean
1:20:02people, they are small-c conservatives.
1:20:04They are naturally small-c
1:20:06conservatives. The stuff I'm talking
1:20:07about those values are their values. But
1:20:10then we've all been hoodwinked into
1:20:12thinking well, you have to vote Democrat
1:20:14or you have to vote labor over here.
1:20:16When in fact that's not the case. Now,
1:20:18look.
1:20:20The reason that's happened is because
1:20:23in the 50s and 60s and so on it was the
1:20:25left that was fighting for us. There's
1:20:27no question, you know.
1:20:29My father aligned himself with the left
1:20:31because those were the people who made
1:20:34his
1:20:35who who fought for better rights for
1:20:37him, you know, you know. So, I I get
1:20:40that. Um
1:20:42I get that point. Um
1:20:45but
1:20:46the thing is we're still caught up in
1:20:47this idea that people are just fighting
1:20:50for their rights, you know? But we're
1:20:52not back in the civil rights, you know,
1:20:54that that isn't the case anymore. We're
1:20:57we're inventing stories to fight against
1:20:59like Smollett and you know,
1:21:03other situations like that where people
1:21:06are just I say situations like that
1:21:08where they're
1:21:09they're making a much bigger deal out of
1:21:11one small little thing.
1:21:13You know. Or fabricating it entirely.
1:21:15Or fabricating it.
1:21:17And all of you who have really been
1:21:19harmed I suppose by the whole
1:21:21affirmative action stuff um
1:21:24you know, I sort of understand why
1:21:25affirmative action was done in the day
1:21:27because you wanted to America wanted to
1:21:29redress things.
1:21:31But the fact that anyone would be
1:21:35against it stopping now, anyone who
1:21:37would be for affirmative action now
1:21:40I don't understand how black people are
1:21:43happy to take a position knowing that
1:21:45they didn't deserve it.
1:21:47And And then other people would be
1:21:49suspect. I can't bear it. And the thing
1:21:52is what then happens is that that then
1:21:54is it hurts those of us who do deserve
1:21:55it. So, look at how I how I've worked to
1:21:57put put this place together. Look how
1:21:59amazing it is. And yet people will come
1:22:00up to me and say, "We'd love you to join
1:22:02our board cuz we really need it to be
1:22:04more diverse." And I think, "Do you know
1:22:06who I am? Do you know everything I've
1:22:07achieved? Why can you not see me for
1:22:09me?" But they can't see me for me
1:22:11because they've been taught to only see
1:22:13color. And so I honestly feel in 1995 we
1:22:17had better race relationships with
1:22:19people than we do now. And that I wasn't
1:22:22treated like this. Yes, in 1995 people
1:22:25would come up to me and say, "Ooh, your
1:22:26hair, isn't it great?" Now it's a
1:22:28microaggression and nobody would ever
1:22:31touch my hair. Well, you know what? I'd
1:22:32rather they touched my hair than put me
1:22:34on a board for being diverse, you know?
1:22:36When people used to touch my hair, who
1:22:37cares? So, they touched my hair. They
1:22:39didn't have hair like mine. So, yeah. I
1:22:42mean I used to say, "Yeah, go ahead. I
1:22:43mean what do I care?"
1:22:45I just I don't understand why that why
1:22:48that is a bigger issue than making
1:22:50everybody and then having everybody see
1:22:52everybody through the prism of race.
1:22:54I mean, you know, where you get at a
1:22:56school you get offers for ex- work
1:22:59experience
1:23:00um you know, in a in a law firm or
1:23:02whatever it is.
1:23:04Go and spend a couple of weeks and they
1:23:05say, "But this must be for a black
1:23:06child."
1:23:07And then I'm having conversations with
1:23:09my senior team going
1:23:11"Well, is so-and-so black? Does he look
1:23:13black enough?
1:23:14What What is black?
1:23:16What What How can we make I mean in the
1:23:18end I'm just like, you know what? I
1:23:19don't even want this. I don't want the
1:23:21Don't give me the opportunities for just
1:23:23black kids because you put me in an
1:23:25impossible situation where I'm having to
1:23:28I can't do that. I can't look at
1:23:29children and think, "Are you black? Are
1:23:31you white? Are you this? Are you that?"
1:23:32I can't do it. I I just
1:23:34it's so messed up. It's so messed up.
1:23:36It's so messed up. And I I don't
1:23:39understand how these anti-racist people
1:23:41don't understand that they are racist.
1:23:43Right.
1:23:44I just I don't get it. Um
1:23:46and that they're not helping black
1:23:48people. They're not helping black kids,
1:23:50you know? Or brown kids.
1:23:53Brown and black kids are suffering
1:23:55because of this madness
1:23:57because what they need is to be told
1:23:59work hard, make yourself into something
1:24:02and then you'll live a life that's worth
1:24:03living because you don't have to be a
1:24:06billionaire to have a successful life,
1:24:08right?
1:24:09You can be a teacher
1:24:11and live a wonderful life. You could You
1:24:13could be a doctor and live a wonderful
1:24:15life. You do not have to be the CEO of
1:24:18some bank where you're earning a
1:24:20fortune, you know? And then there's this
1:24:21idea of well, the only way we can all be
1:24:23happy is if there's equal number of
1:24:26certain races in certain institutions.
1:24:28Why does there have to be an equal
1:24:30number? What do we care? What matters is
1:24:32the kind of life that we lead, you know?
1:24:35What matters is
1:24:37have I been kind? Have I worked hard?
1:24:39Have I made sacrifices? Have I
1:24:44taken personal responsibility? Do I have
1:24:46a sense of duty towards other people?
1:24:48That's what makes your life worth
1:24:49living. Um
1:24:52you know, and that's what I try and
1:24:53teach the kids. That's what we all try
1:24:54and do. But the the million-dollar
1:24:56question I have is
1:24:58how do we help people value those
1:25:01things? We know that those things are
1:25:04tied to
1:25:05outcomes that lead to
1:25:07individual flourishing. Yes.
1:25:09I don't I don't know the answer to that
1:25:11question.
1:25:11Well, we have to start with our schools.
1:25:13What people don't understand First of
1:25:15all, we need people Before we even do
1:25:16that, we need people to understand how
1:25:18important schools are.
1:25:20Nobody cares about them. People just
1:25:21think about their own kids and they
1:25:23think if I get him into this private
1:25:24school, he'll be okay. Well, first of
1:25:26all, I'm here to tell you that the
1:25:27private schools are on fire, right? The
1:25:29private schools have more critical race
1:25:31theory than the public schools. The
1:25:32private schools are crazy, okay? They're
1:25:34just crazy because they're all guilty
1:25:36about their privilege and so the only
1:25:39way they can feel less guilty is by
1:25:40bringing in loads of critical race
1:25:42theory books and teaching the kids to
1:25:44hate themselves and all the rest of it.
1:25:45It's just mad. Um
1:25:48if you put your child into a private
1:25:50school, you're taking your life into
1:25:51your hands, you know?
1:25:53It's actually getting to a point where
1:25:55you can't go anywhere without seeing
1:25:57this sort of stuff. But in a way I'm
1:26:00pleased that that sort of happened, the
1:26:01critical race theory debate has happened
1:26:03because before that, look, I have for a
1:26:06decade and a half been talking about
1:26:08this stuff.
1:26:09I've been shouting and screaming about
1:26:10child-centered learning. I've been
1:26:11shouting and screaming about
1:26:13you know, about
1:26:15Oh, yeah, phonics exactly. I've been
1:26:17shouting and screaming about the
1:26:19children leading the way instead of the
1:26:20adults about
1:26:23the fact that we're not teaching British
1:26:25history properly. I was shouting about
1:26:26here in this country.
1:26:28Nobody's been listening to me.
1:26:30Parents now have only taken an interest
1:26:33now that race is on the cards and trans
1:26:35is on the cards. Those two things have
1:26:37made people sit up and take notice.
1:26:39Before that, nobody cared. And nobody
1:26:42cared cuz nobody cares about schools.
1:26:44Nobody cares about the importance that
1:26:45they have and the impact that they have
1:26:47on the future of a country. If you care
1:26:49about your country, you have to care
1:26:50about the schools. And
1:26:53I I keep saying this. Nobody's listening
1:26:55to me and they're not listening because
1:26:58once they've got their kid into school
1:26:59Look, this is most parents.
1:27:01Get them into a decent enough school,
1:27:03he'll be all right. Comes home at the
1:27:04end of the day, "How was your day?"
1:27:06"Fine." "Great. You got some homework?
1:27:07Go do your homework." That's it. I'm
1:27:09always thinking, "How do you know it's
1:27:10the right homework? How do you know what
1:27:12the homework is? How do you know what
1:27:14how much homework it is? How do you know
1:27:16what levels he's You're just assuming
1:27:17that the school knows what they're
1:27:18doing. You have absolutely no idea.
1:27:21How do you know his day was nice? His
1:27:23day is Yeah, it was fine. How do you
1:27:24know it was fine? How do you know he
1:27:25wasn't beaten up? How do you know he
1:27:27wasn't bullied? You have no idea. And
1:27:29the reason you have no idea is cuz
1:27:30that's what kids say when they come
1:27:31home. It was fine.
1:27:33They're teenagers. They don't want to
1:27:34talk to their parents. And because the
1:27:36parents are busy Well, they don't.
1:27:39I know.
1:27:40Indeed. If you don't know what's going
1:27:42on in your child's school, I'm telling
1:27:44you crazy stuff is going on, right?
1:27:48Nobody listens to me. I got up in 2010
1:27:49and said that the whole world, you know,
1:27:52they they all went mad. Now, there were
1:27:54some people who thought, "Brilliant. She
1:27:55said something, right?" They were in the
1:27:57minority. Now, over time I have built up
1:28:00more of a following. The school the the
1:28:03the fact that I'm known now for the
1:28:04school and people know that. More and
1:28:06more people have come on board with it.
1:28:08But this prayer stuff
1:28:10there there are few teachers out there
1:28:12who In fact, I can't think of a single
1:28:13one who's defending us. Okay, I I have
1:28:15We're You've been very generous with
1:28:17your time and I appreciate it and I I
1:28:18just have two more questions. Sure. So,
1:28:21we have a
1:28:22pretty significant international
1:28:23audience that's going to be listening to
1:28:24this.
1:28:25And And I want to
1:28:27specifically ask you
1:28:30if there's an educational administrator
1:28:32or a teacher in what in the United
1:28:35States we say K through 12
1:28:37listening to this
1:28:38can you give them
1:28:40the educational administrator and the
1:28:42teacher two to three things that they
1:28:45could do, specific things that they
1:28:47could do to help?
1:28:48Definitely. Okay, so the first thing you
1:28:49need to get is the behavior. If kids
1:28:51aren't behaving, then the teachers can't
1:28:53teach. So, line them up outside. Um get
1:28:57them to face the front. Get them to If
1:29:00you can, get them to walk into the
1:29:01school in silence. Now, that means
1:29:02teachers being out and about. Now, you
1:29:04might not be able to do that bit. At the
1:29:06very least, they need to come into the
1:29:07classroom and have a system of
1:29:10sitting down and being silent. And if
1:29:12they're not silent, you need a system of
1:29:13being able to throw them out of the
1:29:14class. Kids Look,
1:29:17teachers Yeah, that's a You need to be
1:29:20able to throw them out. You need to be
1:29:21able to put them somewhere. Because if
1:29:23you can't put them anywhere, then the
1:29:25kids are going to Well, they're not
1:29:26going to listen to you, right? Kids want
1:29:28to be in the group. They don't want to
1:29:29be separated from the group. If you do
1:29:31that consistently, over time, you will
1:29:33move the school to a point where all the
1:29:35kids are then listening to you. Now,
1:29:38they need to make You need to make sure
1:29:39that they have something worth listening
1:29:40to.
1:29:41So, the teaching needs to be good. So,
1:29:43you need teachers who are planning their
1:29:45lessons and who are explaining things
1:29:48carefully. Now, I mean, I could speak to
1:29:51you to five for 5 days about the quality
1:29:53of explanations and what it needs to
1:29:54look like, but you need to
1:29:57make it accessible to them
1:30:00and you need to check for understanding.
1:30:02Number one thing. Okay, can somebody
1:30:04tell me what I've just said?
1:30:05Can somebody just say, "What have I just
1:30:08told you to do?" Right? So, everybody
1:30:10hears it. You say it two or three times
1:30:12so that everybody then can get get down
1:30:14with the work. Now, the homework that
1:30:16you give them needs to refer to the
1:30:19stuff you have just taught them. Don't
1:30:20give them projects. Don't give them
1:30:22research. Don't give them things that
1:30:24their parents have to do for them.
1:30:26Give them drill on what you've just
1:30:29taught them. Because then it drills them
1:30:31into their heads cuz kids aren't going
1:30:32to remember. Teachers across the world
1:30:34in staff rooms are saying, "I can't
1:30:36understand why they don't remember it. I
1:30:37taught it to them." You have to teach
1:30:39them 10 times. Right. You got to drill,
1:30:42right? Drill, there's such a thing as
1:30:44they call it drilling kill.
1:30:46That's wrong. It's That's what E.D.
1:30:47Hirsch is arguing against, right?
1:30:49If you don't drill something, you're not
1:30:51going to know it. It's very simple. How
1:30:53do you learn another language? By
1:30:54drilling yourself in the vocabulary. Um
1:30:57So,
1:30:58you have to drill them with the The
1:30:59homework is drilling what you've just
1:31:01learned so they know exactly how to do
1:31:02it. You cannot give them homework that
1:31:04they're not going to understand. Um and
1:31:06then you explain, you check for
1:31:09understanding, and you sort the
1:31:11discipline. Um Now, discipline often can
1:31:14be sorted by going after the small
1:31:16stuff.
1:31:17If you have a charter school and you can
1:31:18have a uniform, then great, you know?
1:31:20Because then
1:31:21Yeah, I noticed the uniforms and the the
1:31:23badges.
1:31:24The badges and you'll notice that not a
1:31:25single tie is down. I noticed that. Now,
1:31:28that's because to rebel here, you might
1:31:32your shirt might be left slightly
1:31:33untucked. And if you get away for a
1:31:35couple of hours with your shirt
1:31:36untucked, you're a bad boy here.
1:31:39Now, what that means is cuz we've made
1:31:41it into a big deal. Shirts tucked in,
1:31:43ties to the top. That's a big deal. So,
1:31:45the bad boys can can rebel by untucking
1:31:48the shirt, right?
1:31:49Now, if you do that,
1:31:52it means they don't have to bring in
1:31:53knives to rebel.
1:31:55If everything goes and there's freedom
1:31:57for all, well, in order to be the bad
1:31:59boy, you've got to bring a knife in.
1:32:02But if you can be a bad boy simply by
1:32:03untucking your shirt or by making a
1:32:05noise in the corridor because nobody
1:32:07talks. You know, so
1:32:10once my deputies came running to me,
1:32:11"Katharine, we've got a situation." And
1:32:13I said, "What's the situation?" And they
1:32:14said, "THEY'RE HUMMING IN THE
1:32:15CORRIDORS."
1:32:17AND I THOUGHT, "I'll take that."
1:32:19If If that's their rebellious act, I'll
1:32:21take that, you know?
1:32:22The thing is you've got to draw the
1:32:24fencing tightly so that when they rebel,
1:32:26it's within that fence. So, for
1:32:28educational administrators, then what?
1:32:31Well, that's what they need to To be
1:32:33honest, I mean, if I could, I'd The
1:32:34whole of the American system is is
1:32:37screwed up. The reason why it's screwed
1:32:38up is cuz you all think in this way of
1:32:40teachers, administrators. That doesn't
1:32:42happen here. Here,
1:32:44you know,
1:32:45I'm the only person in this building
1:32:46that doesn't teach. All of my deputy
1:32:47heads, who are would be administrators
1:32:50in in America, they all teach. And you
1:32:53move your way up through teaching as
1:32:55opposed to going off and doing some
1:32:57idiotic bureaucratic qualification and
1:32:59then coming back in as an administrator,
1:33:01right? We don't have anything like that.
1:33:03We just move our way up through
1:33:04teaching. First, you might become a
1:33:06second in charge of a department, then
1:33:08you become a head of department, then
1:33:09you become an assistant head, then you
1:33:10become a deputy head, and then you
1:33:11become a head. Whereas there, you
1:33:14actually leave the classroom, you leave
1:33:16the school to go off and do some
1:33:17bureaucracy and then come back as some
1:33:20pen pusher with a with a clipboard. It's
1:33:22crazy.
1:33:23Which is one of the reasons why the
1:33:24charter schools are so much better than
1:33:25the public schools.
1:33:26Interesting. Because they are people who
1:33:28really believe in it. So, you know, we
1:33:31set up the school. We own it. It's ours,
1:33:33you know? And it has our particular
1:33:36brand of education. Um Do you give
1:33:38internships for people here? Like people
1:33:40who want to teach or so cuz it seems to
1:33:42me an incredible opportunity for people
1:33:44who want to go into teaching. But also a
1:33:46ton of work. Yeah, a ton of work.
1:33:48We're just so small. Um But look, I
1:33:51tried to do that. Tried to set up a
1:33:52leadership course, which would have been
1:33:54funded by government. They blocked us.
1:33:56Like everything I've tried to do,
1:33:58we've been stopped from doing it.
1:34:00Um
1:34:02Now, look, in the end, I have satisfied
1:34:04myself with being the show pony. People
1:34:06come, they learn from us, they take it
1:34:08back to their classrooms. People listen
1:34:10to me on a podcast, they go, "Oh, that's
1:34:12interesting. Let me try that out in my
1:34:13classroom."
1:34:14Um I go and do conferences in places and
1:34:17to to teachers and I give advice about
1:34:19what to do. Um and they listen and they
1:34:21do stuff and it makes a difference to
1:34:22their classrooms.
1:34:23What Final questions, I know we're over
1:34:25now, but I apologize. What
1:34:27Real quick, what So,
1:34:29what do you do for your free time?
1:34:32Do you have any free time? What do you
1:34:33do with yourself when you're not here?
1:34:35I don't know. I like watching films. Oh,
1:34:37what do you like? Um Oh, any number of
1:34:40films. I want to go and see that film
1:34:42The Holdovers. Oh, yeah.
1:34:43It's about a teacher in it. Yeah, yeah,
1:34:45yeah.
1:34:46Yeah. Um
1:34:48Uh yeah. I don't know. Yeah, I don't
1:34:50know. I I watch films. I might see some
1:34:52friends.
1:34:53seems to be This would have to be an
1:34:55all-consuming
1:34:57life thing.
1:34:58It is a bit all-consuming, that's true.
1:35:00But that's always been the case. I love
1:35:02education. I sit on the subway on the
1:35:04tube um and I am
1:35:07I'll watch a mom with her child and I'll
1:35:10see him take out the smartphone and I
1:35:12want to go up to her and say, "Take away
1:35:13the smartphone."
1:35:14You know, I'm always watching children
1:35:16everywhere.
1:35:16That's how I feel when I when I see
1:35:18people smoking around their kids. Right.
1:35:20Yes, indeed. Yeah, so
1:35:23I'm obsessed with kids and obsessed with
1:35:25education. That's my thing. I love it.
1:35:28So, I don't see this as work, really.
1:35:30Yeah. But My My other question was So,
1:35:32what what what keeps you going here? I
1:35:35mean, despite all these obstacles and
1:35:37death threats and lunatics?
1:35:39The children.
1:35:41Not just our children. I mean, all
1:35:42children. Yeah. Um I spent
1:35:45most of my career, I suppose,
1:35:47uh
1:35:48in in the city schools seeing children
1:35:50fail time and time again.
1:35:52Um and they were good inner city
1:35:54schools, frankly, the ones I was in. I
1:35:56visited schools where,
1:35:58you know, it's hell on Earth. I
1:36:01I don't I don't understand we spend 90
1:36:03billion a year, more than 90 billion, on
1:36:06education. Um I don't understand how it
1:36:09is that a country can spend so much
1:36:11money on education and not produce
1:36:13excellent schools all over. You know,
1:36:15and I know why that is, because of the
1:36:18values, because of the ideologies,
1:36:20because all the things that we've
1:36:22discussed. Um
1:36:25So, I'm just trying to
1:36:27I'm just trying to make a difference.
1:36:28Yeah. I think you've
1:36:30done that and then some.
1:36:33Thank you. I'm trying.
1:36:35So, how can people learn more about the
1:36:37the school, Michaela? Where Where can
1:36:39people go?
1:36:40Well, there's my Twitter, Miss Snuffy.
1:36:43My What is it again? Miss Snuffy. So,
1:36:46it's Miss with a underscore Snuffy, s n
1:36:49u f f y, but that's short for
1:36:52Snuffleupagus. You'll remember from
1:36:53Sesame Street, Mr. Snuffleupagus. Yes, I
1:36:55do. And in the day, I set up a blog
1:36:57called To Miss with Love. Like the
1:36:59Sidney Poitier film before it.
1:37:02To Sir with Love. And um
1:37:04I had I called myself Miss Snuffleupagus
1:37:06cuz it was the big elephant in the room,
1:37:08right? And then over time on my blog,
1:37:10this is before Twitter and all that, um
1:37:13people started calling me Miss Snuffy.
1:37:14So, then when I set up my Twitter, I
1:37:16stuck with Miss Snuffy.
1:37:17Okay. So, they can find me on Twitter,
1:37:19but there's loads of I don't know
1:37:23interviews I've done or things I've
1:37:25written, articles I've written that
1:37:26people can read.
1:37:28Um there's our website, the Michaela
1:37:30website, that people can go on to if
1:37:31they want to see what the school is.
1:37:32what's the name of that? And then
1:37:34there's the documentary. The
1:37:35documentary.
1:37:36I that I would strongly recommend.
1:37:37What's the name of the documentary?
1:37:39Strictestheadmistress.com.
1:37:41Okay. And that's you. And that's me.
1:37:43Wow. In fact, if you type into Google,
1:37:46"Who is the strictest teacher in the
1:37:48world?" my name comes up. Wow.
1:37:51Wow. That's fantastic.
1:37:53Wow. Well, Katharine, thank you so much
1:37:55for talking to us. I I sincerely
1:37:57appreciate it. Thank you so much.
1:37:59Thanks for having me.
1:37:59That's great.
1:38:01Thank you for watching.
1:38:02Everything we do is under the umbrella
1:38:04of the National Progress Alliance,
1:38:06nationalprogressalliance.org.
1:38:09It's a nonprofit, independent 501c3.
1:38:13Your generous donations keep us going
1:38:15and keep fueling content like this. So,
1:38:18please help us out. Make a donation. We
1:38:20very much appreciate it. Thank you.

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