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America's most courageous insider, Dr. Jeffrey Wigand — Transcript

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0:06Hello one and all. Thank you very much
0:08for joining me for my podcast The Engel
0:10Angle. I am Fort Worth Star-Telegram
0:13columnist Mac Engel.
0:15My guest for this episode is someone who
0:17quite accidentally kicked my career down
0:20paths away from sports
0:23and for that I am eternally grateful.
0:26I met him back in 2000 or 2001
0:30and at the time I was a beat writer
0:33covering the Texas Rangers.
0:36Now at the time I had a lot of other
0:37interests away from sports, something
0:40that this podcast has given me the
0:41opportunity to further explore.
0:44The same certainly can be said of my
0:46employer the Fort Worth Star-Telegram
0:48which has been so kind over the years to
0:50allow me the opportunity
0:52for the chance to report, opine, and
0:55pursue other topics ranging from movies,
0:59culture, books, travel, pop culture,
1:03politics, news,
1:05and in this case newsmakers.
1:08I do often remind myself how fortunate I
1:11have been to cover subjects that are
1:13further afield from sports even though I
1:15still love sports.
1:17Now this began for me back in 1999 after
1:20I had seen the movie The Insider
1:23uh in the movie theater.
1:25Remember when back when people did that?
1:27Uh the movie stars Russell Crowe, Al
1:29Pacino, Christopher Plummer, and is
1:32directed by Michael Mann. I'm a big
1:34Michael Mann fan.
1:36Uh Michael Mann also co-wrote The
1:38Insider.
1:39Michael Mann is best known as the man
1:41who created the hit TV series Miami
1:42Vice,
1:44directed popular popular movies such as
1:46Heat,
1:47Thief, and The Last of the Mohicans
1:49among other titles.
1:51The movie The Insider was actually based
1:53on a Vanity Fair article about the story
1:56of former big tobacco scientist Dr.
1:58Jeffrey Wigand and specifically his
2:01ordeal with CBS's top-rated news show 60
2:04Minutes and its struggles to air his
2:07interview.
2:09It was an interview where he revealed
2:10that the tobacco companies manipulated
2:13its lethal product to be even more
2:16addictive. You go public and 30 million
2:18people hear what you got to say.
2:20Nothing, I mean nothing, will ever be
2:22the same again.
2:25Now, the work we did here is
2:26confidential, not for public scrutiny
2:28any more than I want his family matters.
2:34We're very serious about protecting our
2:36interests.
2:41He's got something to say, he wants to
2:43say it, I want him on 60 Minutes.
2:45Maybe for the audience it's just
2:47voyeurism, something to do on a Sunday
2:48night and maybe it won't change a thing.
2:49And people like myself and my family are
2:52left hung out to dry, used up, alone.
2:55What does this guy have to say? I know
2:58they're paranoid, Jeff. That threatens
3:00these people.
3:01That isn't cigarettes are bad for you.
3:02Who is this?
3:08They have no right to hide behind a
3:09corporate agreement. He can talk, we can
3:11air it.
3:12The worst kind of an organized smear
3:13campaign against a whistleblower.
3:16Shoplifting, failing to pay child
3:18support.
3:18They can paint everything with that
3:20brush. What what are you going to do
3:22now, Yiannopoulos? Schenectady me,
3:24lawyer me.
3:25Come on. Try, Mr. Wallace.
3:27If you aired this segment,
3:29I was told
3:30Don't talk.
3:30mind my own business. We could be at
3:32grave risk.
3:33We're doing this with or without you,
3:34Lowell.
3:35Are you a businessman or are you a
3:37newsman?
3:40He's only the key witness in the biggest
3:42public health reform issue in US
3:44history.
3:47Does he go on television and tell the
3:49truth? Yes. Is it newsworthy? Yes. Are
3:53we going to air it? Of course not. Why?
3:56Because he's not telling the truth. No,
3:58because he is telling the truth and the
4:00more truth he tells the worse it gets.
4:03You manipulated me into this. I fought
4:06for you and I still FIGHT FOR YOU. THE
4:08American public need to know.
4:11Jeffrey? And you wish you hadn't come
4:13forward.
4:13DR. WIGAND'S DEPOSITION WILL BE PART OF
4:16THIS RECORD. YOU WISH YOU HADN'T BLOWN
4:17the whistle.
4:19Do you think it was worth it?
4:20I told the truth. It's valid and true
4:22and truthful to people.
4:23THAT'S NOT THE POINT WHETHER YOU TOLD
4:24THE TRUTH OR NOT.
4:33Wigand's interview and subsequent court
4:35testimony ultimately led to the nation's
4:38four largest tobacco companies agreeing
4:40to the largest civil litigation
4:42settlement in the history of the United
4:45United States, which in 1998 totaled
4:48about $250 billion.
4:52That agreement also included dramatic
4:54reform throughout the tobacco industry.
4:57Dr. Wigand went on to become one of the
4:58world's foremost experts on the dangers
5:01of tobacco, and he used his expertise
5:04and fame to serve as an educator for
5:07people all over the world. He's also one
5:10of the foremost experts in the dangerous
5:12art of whistle-blowing.
5:14I originally met him more than 20 years
5:16ago. That interview took me about 6
5:18months to set up. I kept peppering him
5:20with emails, and he finally agreed to do
5:23it. So, I drove out to what was then a
5:25very little place called Frisco, Texas
5:27to meet him in the lobby of a Holiday
5:29Inn, whereupon greeting him he said,
5:31"You've got to try
5:34their chocolate chip cookies."
5:36He was right. They were really good.
5:38So, he got into my red Pontiac Grand Am,
5:41I drove him to a Starbucks, he had some
5:43tea, I had some fru-fru drink, and I got
5:46to talk to Dr. Jeffrey Wigand for about
5:48an hour.
5:49Maybe a little bit more.
5:51Uh it was a great interview then and
5:53it's a great pleasure to introduce
5:55Dr. Jeffrey Wigand. Just saying
5:58a very
6:01uh unexpected victory in the
6:03Netherlands. What was it?
6:06Well,
6:089 years ago,
6:11I was in the Netherlands and working
6:13with their
6:15tobacco control group folks
6:17and people at the
6:20the hospitals and I started a program
6:21for kids.
6:23And one of the things they were look
6:24trying to look at is a revised
6:27testing for filtered cigarettes.
6:31And they were looking at any litigative
6:35issues there. And I so I demonstrated
6:37for them
6:38the
6:39blocked versus unblocked
6:43test FTC testing.
6:46So when you block the filter ventilation
6:48holes, you deliver up to four times the
6:50amount of
6:52tar, carbon monoxide, nitrous oxide,
6:55which is pretty pretty important in
6:57Europe because there's a label on a
6:59product product that says, "This is what
7:01you're getting." So people who are a
7:03little health
7:04conscious go and look at the numbers
7:06rather than quit and look for the lowest
7:08tar and nicotine.
7:11And so we unveiled it
7:13and I showed them the
7:15the in in
7:17semi-invisible unless you're looking for
7:19it, laser preparations around the
7:21circumference of the filter.
7:24And it started litigation against the
7:25tobacco industry for deceptive
7:28practices.
7:30And it just came down from the Supreme
7:31Court of the Netherlands
7:34that they have to revise the test method
7:36and remove all the product that's on the
7:37shelves
7:39and replace with product that's been
7:41measured appropriately.
7:42Which then of course involves a separate
7:45part of the government which is DIM, N I
7:48V M.
7:49Which is basically their
7:51/CDC/
7:54FDA.
7:56And they have not been using the the
7:58block versus unblock like Canada has
8:00been using
8:02since I've been there for almost 15
8:04years now.
8:06And Massachusetts were doing it.
8:08Versus block versus unblock.
8:10Uh
8:11educate me real quick. What you're
8:13describing sounds
8:16vaguely similar to what was going on in
8:19the 90s when you blew the whistle on
8:23Brown Williamson. Are these are there
8:25similarities, are there parallels, or
8:27are these different types of um product
8:30manipulations with a cigarette?
8:32And David there, I've been on that case
8:34since 1996.
8:36And now they've been able to get to any
8:38traction in this country which which is
8:40somewhat backward in terms of its
8:42regulation. Tobacco product. They
8:44haven't they can't be on package
8:46labeling
8:48as the rest of the world has. They
8:51uh they don't require labeling
8:54on the package. They
8:57have refused to ban menthol
9:00which allows the industry to target
9:01African Americans.
9:04Yeah. Menthol.
9:06Menthol cigarettes cause a very
9:08different effect on on on the smoker in
9:11terms of anesthetizing the respiratory
9:14tract so they can inhale inhale more and
9:16deeper.
9:18Wow.
9:20So that's why so
9:23they have to now develop a new testing
9:25matter methodology in
9:28Europe
9:30or particularly the Netherlands
9:31to accommodate the open and closed
9:34filters.
9:35So they can put a
9:36a
9:40accurate assessment numbers on the
9:43package.
9:45I don't know if you've ever ever
9:46traveled to Europe, pick up a pack of
9:48cigarettes, there's a big white label on
9:49the side. Mhm, I've seen that.
9:51nicotine and carbon monoxide.
9:55So,
9:57that just came through,
9:58which was a
9:59um
10:01I'm already writing a paper about it.
10:04So, even though you're celebrating your
10:0680th birthday,
10:08uh you're not slowing down in what I
10:11think can kind of be called the third
10:14act of your of your long career.
10:16It seems to me what you're discussing
10:19Pardon?
10:20It's the first act, it's still the
10:21third. That's great. Well, I mean,
10:24your your trajectory changed quite a bit
10:2625 years ago, did it not?
10:29In 1994?
10:3194? Okay, yeah, more than that. Wow,
10:33gosh, I can't believe it's been that
10:34long. Um so, I want to
10:36I do want to backtrack because
10:39I want to go back to that point in your
10:41life
10:42because you're known as a whistleblower.
10:45And maybe
10:46And you might
10:48you might be the most significant whis-
10:50whistleblower in the history of the
10:51United States, at least you're in that
10:53in that echelon. Yes, I am.
10:55If someone was contemplating doing that
10:58on a government agency, on an employer,
11:01taking the risks that you would take
11:03that you took,
11:04uh
11:06what would you tell them in terms of how
11:09to do it and maybe to avoid some of the
11:12unknowingly mist- maybe maybe mistakes
11:14that you made in that process.
11:17Well,
11:21I talk to potential
11:23persons of conscience, of truth tellers
11:25every day.
11:27Calling me for advice what to do.
11:29And I don't have any really good
11:31succinct advice
11:34other than what do you believe, what do
11:35you know, what is substantiated with
11:39documents.
11:42Um
11:44and that will go a long way. Second is
11:46you need to have
11:47uh some
11:49specific connections with the media.
11:53Mhm.
11:54Cuz without the media, much of what I
11:55did would never been ever become
11:58popular. 60 Minutes, The Wall Street
12:01Journal, The New York Times, LA Times,
12:04Washington Post.
12:06Okay?
12:07You need to understand that this is not
12:09a a cheap process.
12:12That you're going to need
12:14specific legal help.
12:17And
12:18either you're going to get it pro bono
12:20or you're going to get it
12:22through the
12:23through paying for it.
12:26And it's not cheap. I didn't pay for any
12:28of my litigation.
12:32It was pro bono for me from people from
12:34South Carolina, Mississippi, Florida,
12:37New York, Indiana.
12:40Mhm.
12:42Where where the attorney generals.
12:45Attorney generals.
12:46So
12:47you know, when you when you and I spoke
12:49back in 2001, I vividly recall you
12:51telling me
12:53I think you said it to me twice that you
12:55regained your moral compass. Yes.
12:57That that stuck with me. Um
13:01was that a prio- was that was that a
13:03priority for you when you started this,
13:05doctor? That That you felt like you had
13:08compromised it in the name of
13:11oh, I don't know, a job or just making a
13:13lot of money?
13:15But money was never an issue to me in my
13:18career. I mean, I always made good
13:20money. Mhm.
13:22At whatever company I made with and I
13:23always I always made a significant
13:26increase in management responsibility as
13:29I moved from company to company.
13:31The hook that got me involved with
13:35the tobacco industry was
13:39how could I use my scientific
13:42talents, my medical knowledge to make a
13:44safer cigarette.
13:47And and so that
13:50coupled
13:51with a substantial pay hike
13:54health care benefits for my family. As
13:56you know, I may have told you I have one
13:58daughter that lives in Texas. Yeah. And
14:00it's a significant medical issue. And
14:04and at the same time we would get to
14:07move closer to family
14:09in Kentucky.
14:11So when I did the calculus of all of
14:13this
14:15I said I'd I'll do it.
14:18So I signed on in 1989
14:23in December. And then it was go.
14:26And as I continued
14:28with the level of responsibility I had
14:30as a vice president
14:32I had to see things that were in
14:34different silos that never integrated.
14:38And so
14:40the industry that I worked for
14:42particularly but the industry as a whole
14:46to deliberately and consciously
14:49lie about what their product does and
14:51what it is.
14:53Changing the packaging with what was
14:54Salem cigarettes
14:56or cool cigarette to
14:58to
14:59put them in the
15:03category of of way
15:05an African-American
15:08smoke cigarettes.
15:10They turn the pack upside down, they
15:12feel around, and they tap it down. So
15:14what's hanging out
15:17is the
15:18the business end of the cigarette.
15:21That was deliberately
15:23launched in in Philadelphia
15:26and directed particularly to the
15:28African-American minorities.
15:32Menthol cigarettes.
15:34Do you still see uh because I remember
15:37when we spoke
15:39you spoke specifically about the tobacco
15:42industry and how it targeted young
15:44girls.
15:45Yes. And basically as as an appetite
15:48suppressant, which obviously it had it
15:50had worked successfully
15:52successfully
15:53hard word to use, but it had worked for
15:56generations, decades.
15:58What I I don't see people smoke very
16:00much anymore, doctor. So, what methods
16:03of
16:04I'm Dallas-Fort Worth because I remember
16:06when I was there, I worked with the
16:08mayor
16:09of Dallas. Mhm.
16:11He was in supporting of smoke-free
16:13environments.
16:16But the company still exists. So, what
16:18methods of marketing are they using now
16:21to attract customers?
16:23Many of the same
16:24vaping Vaping, yeah. Okay.
16:27How do you like delivering nicotine?
16:30And a a large bowl of nicotine, um
16:34They they have not
16:37substantively changed.
16:41They there are some
16:43changes around the
16:44fringes of the issue.
16:47But they continue to work. They continue
16:49to supply nicotine. They now have a next
16:51generation product of
16:53of vaping.
16:56Okay. Which by the way is epidemic in
16:59middle schools.
17:00In middle schools?
17:02Middle schools. I didn't know that.
17:05Yeah.
17:06Middle schools. Is a vape Is
17:09And I've read stories about of how a
17:11vape cartridge can can blow up. But is a
17:14vape experience
17:16the same as a cigarette?
17:18It has a resistance to draw.
17:21Okay? It delivers a bonus of nicotine,
17:23depending on what you get, anywhere
17:25between 60
17:270 to 50
17:29mg of nicotine.
17:32So, you can get a whole pack of
17:33cigarettes in one dose if you wanted.
17:35A pack of cigarettes in a dose? Yeah. A
17:38pack of cigarettes, average cigarettes,
17:40say Marlboro Light, but the light is not
17:42used anymore.
17:44Well, Marlboro Blue.
17:4720 cigarettes in there delivers
17:49approximately 22 mg of nicotine.
17:54Uh so, what you're describing to me is a
17:57vape, even though it's friendly inside a
18:00restaurant or a bar, so to speak.
18:03I'm really Is it Okay, so I just don't
18:06see it very much. I know people are
18:07doing it. I don't see it very much. But,
18:09what you're describing is that something
18:11that's far more potentially dangerous to
18:13a person's health Yes. than the
18:16cigarette is?
18:18Back as children.
18:20That is awful.
18:22I'm from the fifth grade.
18:24Fifth grade? Yeah, from fifth grade up.
18:27So, when you and I spoke
18:30summer camp for the kids.
18:33That's so bad.
18:35You know,
18:36in some ways it looks to be like America
18:39has made tremendous strides, tremendous
18:42strides when it comes to
18:45um
18:47tobacco use, cuz I just don't see it as
18:49much.
18:51Just because we don't see it as much,
18:52are we fooling ourselves about that?
18:55To a certain degree.
18:56I mean, you have to know that the target
18:58of the market of the industry is
19:00children.
19:027 to 12.
19:037 to 12?
19:06If you hook them early,
19:08you have them for life.
19:11Yeah.
19:12I mean, yeah, I know. And you know, you
19:15they
19:16they are particularly targeting of
19:18African-American and Hispanic
19:19communities.
19:20Continue targeting of girls,
19:22women.
19:24And of course, those that are
19:27that just do it out of out of spite.
19:29People who start now, they'll pick up a
19:31pack of Lucky Strike.
19:34I start there. It's a It might blows
19:36your head off.
19:40You know, you mentioned the Netherlands.
19:42And I know for a long time, you thought,
19:46and I'm paraphrasing what you said,
19:48Europe was kind of a lost cause.
19:50But the last time uh I was there,
19:54it seemed to me now it's been a number
19:55of years ago I was there, but it seemed
19:57to me I saw fewer smokers there than I'd
19:59ever seen before. Yeah, have Have they
20:01made in
20:02Western Europe, Germany, France, Italy?
20:04I just I didn't see it as much. Is Have
20:07they reduced Have they reduced it? Have
20:09Have they done it? The worldwide tobacco
20:11companies, Philip Morris, Mhm. Reynolds
20:14American or BAT Industries, continue
20:17doing what they're doing.
20:21Okay, when when the
20:22the lawsuits ended here in this country,
20:26they were also exported overseas. Yeah.
20:30And the awareness of what was going on
20:33through publications of the effort in
20:34the Wall Street Journal,
20:37in the New York Times, about how
20:40the cigarette was designed to addict and
20:43ultimately kill you.
20:45That knowledge had never been out
20:47ever
20:49until 1994 and 95.
20:53And so, that knowledge
20:55filtered its way to Europe. Mhm.
20:58And they generally there's a lag time in
21:00Europe between the United States and
21:02what goes on in Europe about anywhere
21:04between three to five years.
21:07Years?
21:08Years.
21:09Um okay. And you go to Asia, and
21:12particularly Japan,
21:14that that the
21:16shift that goes on here happens also 5
21:19to 10 years.
21:23Okay.
21:24And I would say in Japan you have a
21:26unique
21:28market segment is that nobody really
21:30starts really smoking until '18, '19.
21:33They're not getting the kid.
21:36But they they have they have actively
21:38promoted charcoal filters to remove all
21:40the poisons.
21:43They have Yeah.
21:45Do you remember Tareyton?
21:48Yeah, by name.
21:49Lark?
21:51They had a a carbon activated carbon
21:53fiber
21:55aspect of the filter.
21:57Which is supposed to capture and reduce
21:59aldehydes. Does it work?
22:02Uh yeah, somewhat, but not doesn't
22:04remove all of it.
22:06The filter was only put on in the after
22:08the 19
22:10Well, the 1950s, the filter was put on
22:13put on because when you smoke a
22:14cigarette without a filter, you get a
22:16lot of little little pieces of tobacco
22:17in your mouth. Right.
22:19So, people thought, "Oh, the filter." It
22:22was when you think of something that
22:24that says it's filtered,
22:26what's the matter?
22:28What comes to mind? A filter? Yeah.
22:31Uh I think of something like
22:33um
22:35like a coffee filter.
22:37Yeah, I think of something where it's
22:38it's basically blocking other items from
22:41coming through.
22:42No.
22:42Right?
22:43Yeah, but it filter
22:47in the late '50s and '60s and '70s did
22:50virtually nothing.
22:52So, it was a filter and a protector in
22:55name only. It
22:56And that but that's the imagery people
22:58got.
22:58Yeah. Yeah.
23:00And in '50s, you know, the whole studies
23:01of
23:03the Windor, Doll, etc. about the link
23:05between smoking and lung cancer. People
23:08got all rattled up.
23:10What did you think about uh America's
23:14changing attitude towards the
23:16legalization of marijuana?
23:18I have a real problem with it. You do?
23:21Yeah, I do. Why?
23:24Well, first of all, you're legalizing
23:25for profit
23:27an experimental product that's never
23:29been tested.
23:31Tell me where you have done a clinical
23:34trial.
23:35Tell me where you have done the
23:37statistical studies
23:40that allow you to say it's safe to use.
23:44It's not. Marijuana has drastic effect
23:47on the brain tissue, particularly of
23:49young people.
23:51It doesn't say take pain away.
23:55Oh, you don't think it's a pain
23:56reliever?
23:57No. Prove it to me.
24:00Um
24:00Show me the data. That's the gold
24:02standard of testing of of a product.
24:05Well, how do you necessarily prove and
24:07and I'm I need you to educate me on
24:09this. When you say prove it to me that
24:11this isn't
24:13uh effective against pain relief.
24:15Isn't Isn't pain relief Isn't Wouldn't
24:17that be sort of subjective? It's the
24:19person who says, "Yeah, I I I I I I I I
24:20I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I
24:21I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I
24:22I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I
24:23There are ways of measuring it.
24:26Because I'm I'm I don't know what to
24:28think about it. I I I I think it was a
24:31cash grab by states, for sure.
24:34Exactly.
24:34But and and then companies that wanted
24:36to just make an ungodly amount of money.
24:38Uh we What What would you guess you
24:40obviously it's not legalized everywhere,
24:42doctor, but if you had to guess
24:45Not yet. Not yet. No, but it's coming.
24:47It's It's like gambling. It's coming.
24:48All these things are coming. I can see
24:51Go ahead. No, what would you guess we're
24:54going to see the consequences of this
24:56legalization will look like in
24:5815 years?
24:59Yeah, I was going to say 10.
25:0015 to 20
25:0215 to 20 years, I think you will see
25:05if you smoke a marijuana joint, are you
25:07getting the same combustion product as
25:09you get with a cigarette?
25:13That's what we're going to see? Yeah.
25:16Will it be the health care fiasco that
25:19cigarettes proved to be and ultimately
25:21why that case was successful, your case?
25:24I think so.
25:26So Who has done that study? Who has done
25:29the work? They just allowed people to
25:31run
25:32with
25:33unsubstantiated
25:36claims.
25:38I mean, I I Well, I got
25:42Who would do the study?
25:43Some prominent university?
25:45Yeah, university.
25:47The The company is marketing a product
25:49at enormous profit.
25:52Why would they do the study?
25:55I mean Why would the company like what's
25:57the financial incentive for the company?
25:59advertising a product Well, you're
26:01advertising product as safe. You're
26:03advertising a product that will live a
26:06You know
26:07THC that does not has no effect on you.
26:10You can say, you know, uh
26:14It's a health risk. And the only way
26:16you're going to convince me that it's
26:18useful
26:20is provide to me the data that allows
26:22you to
26:23substantiate the claims that you've been
26:25made.
26:27Have you gotten in this debate with
26:29somebody who sits there and tries to Oh,
26:32yeah. other side of the fence on you?
26:34Like what's what's their counter
26:35argument to your position?
26:37You know Sanjay Gupta? Sure, yeah.
26:40I got in debate with him at the
26:42University of Buffalo Medical School
26:44when I was getting
26:45a post graduate award.
26:47And his position was what?
26:49He was very pro
26:52THC.
26:54cannabis.
26:56What did you think What What did you
26:57think of his argument?
27:00Quite frankly, I know you're taping
27:01this. I think it's [ __ ] It's okay.
27:05I mean, he Quite frankly, why do you
27:06think it's [ __ ]
27:07He didn't have any data to support it.
27:10It one anecdotal data. That's not enough
27:13data to unless thousands and thousands
27:15of people use it.
27:17Think about it.
27:19I No, I I I The one thing I don't I will
27:22never trust ever, and I know you don't,
27:26I'm not going to trust the company
27:29that has a financial stake in that
27:31product, whatever it is.
27:33Coca-Cola, name it. I'm not going to
27:36trust their study. I'm not going to
27:38trust the the oil company that just had
27:42an oil spill in the middle of wherever,
27:44and if they hire a couple of
27:46Ivy League, you know, environmental
27:48professors to sit there and say, "Oh,
27:51gee whiz, we think in 30 years this is
27:53actually This spill is actually going to
27:54be good for the environment." I want to
27:56see their bank account, and I want to
27:57see the six-figure check that they got
27:59from that oil company. Well, the tobacco
28:01industry has many canceled checks from a
28:04prominent
28:06pathologist at Yale, at Harvard. I'm
28:10sure. They would They paid them big
28:12bucks even at
28:14Have you ever heard of the name Gio
28:15Batta Gori? That one I'm not familiar
28:18with. Batta Gori was a
28:20NIDA employee who said that the best way
28:25to make cigarettes safer is to take out
28:28some of the hazards.
28:30Take out some of the additives that make
28:32it easy to become addicted. It's
28:34substantially addictive.
28:38That's great. So, you know, when when
28:40you're talking about now
28:43sounds to me like where we were America
28:46was, with
28:49um cigarettes back in the '40s. You
28:51know, my dad's my dad's 90. He's from
28:53New York like yourself, and he's from
28:5590. And my mom My mom was a total was a
28:57was addicted to cigarettes for decades.
29:00And I would hear stories from them both
29:02about how for a long time cigarettes
29:04were were sold and marketed as very safe
29:07and very healthy.
29:09That's why they made the packaging
29:11white.
29:12Yeah.
29:13What So, what they put safe doctors
29:15advertising the white coat.
29:17They can't smoke.
29:19So, it took decades for America or the
29:23consumer to wake up and say, "Well, wait
29:24a minute. Maybe this isn't such a good
29:26idea."
29:28Are we going down the same In your
29:30prediction, are we going down that same
29:32path with I think there are many
29:33similarities back. Many similarities.
29:36Uh it when you look at is So, when it
29:39comes to cigarettes, cuz I'd read the
29:41story about Southeast Asia, are
29:43cigarettes now mostly
29:46a third-world and lower socioeconomic
29:49product?
29:50That is correct.
29:52And it's easy to BS
29:54somebody who's not educated.
29:55Right. Okay. It's easy to go and sell
29:58something that addicts people and they
29:59have to come back for it.
30:02Uh when you look at what you did in the
30:06'90s to that industry,
30:10I think the prediction was, doctor, it
30:11was going to be an atomic bomb and
30:13Philip Morris and Reynolds and all these
30:16companies were just going to not not go
30:18away, but really really dramatically go
30:20through a major restructuring and
30:23downsizing and loss in profit.
30:26Did that happen?
30:27Some of it did. But you have to realize
30:29that
30:31the $365
30:32billion to be paid over 25 years by the
30:36tobacco industry
30:38was supposed to be shared with the
30:39states, 20% of that money to go into the
30:42prevention
30:43prevention
30:45treatment.
30:47Okay? That did not happen. I can name
30:50I can name the states on one hand that
30:52actually used the money
30:55for health cause
30:57related issues.
30:58And like Kansas, are you there?
31:02Okay?
31:02Yeah, like that. Yeah, it's my alma
31:03mater.
31:04I know. I'm sorry about to say
31:06something about Kansas.
31:08Kansas took the money Mhm. billions. And
31:11what did they use it for? Roads?
31:14Roads?
31:15Bridges, libraries. Libraries, okay.
31:19So, they bought So, they bought some
31:20books. That's good. That's good.
31:22And wasn't it So, the 20% that is
31:25supposed to work. How about Mississippi
31:27putting 20% in? How about Florida?
31:31Well, didn't Mississippi do it because
31:32they were ground zero for that for that
31:34case? Like, what did they do with it?
31:36They take 20% of their money. Uh-huh. 28
31:40billion dollars, I believe.
31:43And they took 20% of that. They hired a
31:45nurse, and they put in education
31:46programs in the middle schools.
31:50Would you say that was money well spent?
31:52I think there
31:53Some of it is well spent. I think it's
31:55good.
31:56I mean
31:57I mean, I I've been doing this now for
32:0025 odd years. And the most effective
32:02part is going into a middle school
32:05and teaching the kids about it.
32:07Do they listen to you?
32:09It's a middle school kid. You never
32:11know.
32:14And you got this movie guy coming in and
32:16all this
32:17But, you can actually take them through,
32:19you know, quote. And I tell them I show
32:21them the quote actually in the industry
32:22doc. We don't smoke this [ __ ] We
32:24reserve it for the dumb, the black, the
32:26ignorant, and the poor.
32:28Wow.
32:29It's a the
32:30the statement made by
32:33RJR marketing executive.
32:37You ever heard a
32:39That statement was made you you blanked
32:41out for a second there, doctor.
32:42I didn't I didn't say No, I know you
32:44didn't say it. That was the executive of
32:46RJ Reynolds Tobacco.
32:48Yep.
32:49That is now married to BAT Industries,
32:52the parent company of Brown &
32:54Williamson.
32:56So, they they're continuing to do
32:58club out, okay?
33:01They have maintained and protected their
33:03profit
33:04by price increases.
33:06By price increases. Yeah. The whole cost
33:10of the Marlboros
33:11who they built with set built the cost
33:14of
33:15of the mass settlement to them
33:18was gained back immediately by a 25%
33:21increase
33:22on cigarettes.
33:25So, net net what did they what did they
33:27pay?
33:28What did they pay?
33:29They just covered their losses, they
33:30were okay? Yep.
33:33Okay, so you're 80 years old.
33:36Um, what do you want to see in the next
33:3810 years in terms of anti-tobacco
33:42Uh, I don't I guess legislation or just
33:46societal attitudes? I feel very
33:48frustrated in my own country. Do you?
33:51Yeah, go look at Canada.
33:54As you know, I worked for the Minister
33:55of Health of Canada. I set up the whole
33:57program
33:59for tobacco denormalization in Canada.
34:03Tobacco denormalization?
34:05Take Take tobacco out of its normally
34:08accepted environments.
34:10No smoking in restaurants, cognitive
34:12awareness of what it does to you and the
34:14people around you.
34:16Remove the additives therefore.
34:19So, Canada has gone from roughly 20%
34:22smoking to almost 9%. Wow.
34:27So, they they
34:27that program in place?
34:30Yeah, it with lots of
34:33child children smoke-free environments.
34:38When did you when did you put that
34:39program in place, doctor?
34:41When did I put it in play? Yeah, what
34:43year?
34:4895 96 I
34:50So in about a 25 year about 25 years
34:53they've seen an 11% consumption
34:56reduction.
34:57It takes dedicated people, money, and
35:03elected officials who do the right
35:04thing.
35:06I I can't Can you see that happening
35:08here? That that means that you've got
35:10hasn't happened. The the fire bed of
35:12this that has started the whole thing
35:14started here. And not in New York City,
35:17New York State, or Chicago. It happened
35:21in Missis- Jackson, Mississippi.
35:24And what things in Mississippi where
35:26they think?
35:29A lot of negative things, civil war,
35:33flagrant racism, poverty,
35:36bureaucracy that props up the city. I
35:39mean name it, none of it's I mean not
35:41not much of it's good. Bad water. You
35:44know, on and on. I So um
35:47you know, when you look back on it now
35:49at tremendous cost to your personal life
35:53given the way the industry has shifted
35:56and morphed to cover its losses
35:59are you glad you did it?
36:01Hell yeah. Great. I I like that you said
36:03that. I was going to be scared you were
36:04going to say no, it wasn't worth it.
36:06I have New Zealand
36:08outlaw tobacco products in this country
36:11in 2025.
36:13Wow.
36:15Yeah, I work with the New Zealand
36:17parliament particularly in my but the
36:20native that's called the Maori Mhm. They
36:23grow it, they can use it.
36:25They can't buy it.
36:27They can't buy a pack of cigarettes. And
36:29that makes it more fun because New
36:31Zealand BAT industry was building a new
36:34plant.
36:35I'm sorry.
36:37They can take all that concrete and
36:39steel and shove it.
36:43Do you ever hear from
36:46tobacco executives anymore? Do you ever
36:48get an email?
36:49Or
36:50Or in court.
36:52But
36:53do you ever get threatened anymore?
36:57Doesn't scare me anymore. I mean I
36:59I I I I
37:00I I get threats. Threats? I
37:04uh
37:04electronic threats.
37:06Like I I get physical threats.
37:09Uh I have had damage to my
37:11personal property, my home.
37:14It's always related to my testifying in
37:17what's called the
37:20the penalty stage of the litigation
37:23which looks at
37:24what kind of egregious conduct did they
37:26use for what happened. That's mostly
37:28against the lawyers.
37:32And they're not happy with me because
37:33that
37:35You get You can get damages for 100,000.
37:38Which you can get
37:41egregious behavior
37:43or
37:45hundreds of thousands.
37:46I know this is a significant amount of
37:48money.
37:49Yeah.
37:50Uh
37:51when you and I spoke a long time ago, I
37:53still remember so much of that
37:54interview. Just without even rereading
37:57it.
37:58You told me back then when you were
38:00going through all of that, what really
38:02scared you was the prospect of going to
38:05jail, which they had threatened you
38:07potentially with.
38:09Of all the times you have been
38:10threatened, of all the things that you
38:12went through, does does that experience
38:14of being threatened to go to jail, does
38:16that remain the thing that still scare
38:17you the most through after all these
38:19years?
38:20Well, how about uh having armed ex-
38:23Secret Service
38:26guardians
38:28who protected me daily,
38:30opened my mail,
38:32They opened your mail?
38:33Yeah, they
38:35And then cuz I was scared of they
38:37started my car in the morning, they
38:39followed me to school.
38:41But the most si-
38:45scariest part was finding a bullet in my
38:47mailbox
38:48addressed to my daughter.
38:50They That was addressed to your
38:52daughter?
38:53Yeah.
38:54I never knew that. I thought the bullet
38:56was just in your mailbox. I never knew
38:58that was addressed to your daughters.
39:00God, I can't imagine what you went
39:01through then. In an envelope with a
39:03letter and a a .350
39:06a large ma-
39:08pistol
39:09Israeli
39:10cartridge.
39:12Primed and ready to go.
39:15And that scared me.
39:17I carried a gun after that.
39:19Did you really? Yeah.
39:22Uh
39:23I know you have children. I remember you
39:26telling me when the movie premiered you
39:28took them to the movie and it gave them
39:30a better sense of what it was that you
39:32went through even if the movie wasn't
39:34maybe
39:35you know, completely true, but it was
39:36close enough that they got the point. It
39:38was a documentary. Yeah, well yeah, it
39:40was terrific. It was a great movie.
39:42Since that time, did you ever when as
39:44they got older, did you ever sit down
39:46with them? Did they ever ask you where
39:48you could explain them
39:50why you did what you did and and what
39:52happened because they were young they
39:54were pretty young at the time. Yeah,
39:55they were
39:57five and seven.
39:59They didn't have any idea. They had no
40:01idea.
40:02Have you talked to them about it since
40:03then?
40:05They've been with me at a number of
40:07events which I've basically told the
40:09story Mhm.
40:10and they got it. I I don't
40:13You know, the the divorce was not
40:14pretty.
40:16I remember you told me that. Yeah. And
40:18my ex
40:22Well, I don't want to call her I'm going
40:23to I'm going to be polite cuz she lives
40:25in Texas.
40:27In Plano.
40:28I remember that. Yeah.
40:30Okay.
40:32I don't know you know Jones Day little
40:34firm?
40:35Uh-huh.
40:36Okay. She worked with them.
40:39Accepted funding
40:41to stop the movie from being released
40:43cuz she felt that she was
40:46unreasonably characterized as
40:50a a good
40:51gold digger.
40:54Really? I I did not think the movie
40:56characterized her as that at all. It
40:58characterized her as a someone who was
41:00angry at her husband for going through
41:02all that stuff as opposed to just taking
41:04the money and
41:05living in Louisville in a nice house.
41:07Yeah.
41:09One nice house with another nice house.
41:12Uh so, all right. What do you We've got
41:15time for one or probably one more
41:16question, doctor.
41:17How much time do you have anyway? Uh
41:18about 3 more minutes. About 3 more
41:20minutes. About 3 more minutes. No, this
41:22has been great. Uh you're always widely
41:24entertaining. So, for the uh for the
41:26person out there, let's let's think
41:28about attacking a parent. Attacking's
41:29the wrong word. Addressing a parent. A
41:31parent has a child who they know now is
41:35experimenting in marijuana use or vaping
41:39or cigarettes.
41:40How should the parent talk to the child
41:42to dissuade them from using it?
41:45Well, hopefully that the parent that's
41:46going to provide the advice to their
41:48child has does not use the stuff. Okay.
41:52Okay. Second is
41:54become knowledgeable.
41:57There are many hazards out there that
41:59that you can learn about by
42:02learning from it.
42:03Teaching. Okay. There is there is a
42:06whole process of creating
42:09knowledge in children develop it third
42:11grade. I do it? I know it.
42:13I watch them with their input afterwards
42:16and then I test them with their
42:17questions.
42:19Okay? Um
42:20and what they have absorbed.
42:22Show them that secondhand smoke is not
42:25nothing. Take this in a smoke chamber.
42:28I have a smoking Sally.
42:30Um
42:31device which will let smoke a cigarette
42:33inside by puffing it and watch the
42:35windows of the glass
42:37of the polypro
42:38of the poly polycarbonate.
42:40Okay. Mhm.
42:41Build up and then I go and wipe it.
42:46And they get to see that what's on the
42:47walls is
42:49in terms of what happens the same thing
42:50in a smoke-free environment is things
42:53that you'll breathe.
42:55Um
42:56And we know that there's an equivalency
42:59between active
43:00and passive smoking.
43:03You do die from passive smoke.
43:06You do die from passive smoking. That
43:08means you're breathing somebody else's
43:10cigarette when you choose not to breathe
43:12or smoke.
43:14That's why
43:15the day Do you remember the days when we
43:16used to have smoking sections in
43:17airplanes? Yeah. It was crazy. Yeah,
43:20it's the same as a no peeing pool.
43:24Uh I really want to thank you for your
43:26time today and and all the time that
43:27I've bugged you in the past. You remain
43:30absolutely my favorite interview and
43:32I've had I've been fortunate to
43:33interview some really interesting people
43:34in my life. I There's no one more
43:36interesting or courageous than I've ever
43:39interviewed than you. And I wish you the
43:40very best of continued good health and
43:43continued success in your fight in what
43:45is a worthy endeavor.
43:48I think so.
43:49So I tell you.
43:51Fantastic. Take care of yourself,
43:53doctor. I'll be in touch.
43:54Have a happy holiday. Have a safe
43:56holiday. And a happy new year.
43:59I will. Thanks, doctor. Take care.

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