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America's Equity Obsession: An Interview with Heather Mac Donald — Transcript

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0:00good evening everyone
0:01thanks for joining us to note the
0:04release of when race Trump's Merit how
0:07the pursuit of equity sacrifices
0:09Excellence destroys Beauty and threatens
0:13lives I'm Brian Anderson I'm the editor
0:15of City Journal and it's my honor to
0:18introduce the book's author Heather
0:19McDonald
0:26Heather is the Manhattan institute's
0:29Thomas W Smith fellow she's a
0:31contributing editor of City Journal who
0:33has written for the magazine almost
0:34since its Inception and their byline
0:37appears regularly in the Wall Street
0:39Journal and many other leading
0:40Publications she's also the author of
0:43the best sellers the war on Cops and the
0:45diversity delusion
0:47Just for kicks I asked chat GTP who the
0:51most influential City Journal writers
0:52are and Heather's name headed the list
0:55so
0:57I like that I like that
1:00IAAI AI yes over the years Heather's
1:04scrupulous and groundbreaking work has
1:06shed light on important Trends in
1:09American Life her new book brings
1:11Relentless reporting to perhaps the most
1:14dangerous one yet which is the equity
1:16craze that is threatening our scientific
1:19cultural and public institutions
1:22in this new book when race Trump's
1:24marriage he details the rise of
1:26disparate impact ideology and its
1:29potential to do enormous harm to our
1:31society her book also represents a
1:33powerful defense of our civilizational
1:35inheritance so we'll discuss all of that
1:39and more tonight
1:40so Heather let me start so in the in the
1:44wake of George Floyd's death in May 2020
1:49activists heightened their cries for
1:52so-called racial equity and the
1:54proportional representation of races in
1:57American institutions and organizations
2:00the Press publish countless stories
2:02about minorities under representation in
2:05various fields and firms corporations
2:07began to fall over themselves
2:09proclaiming their guilt in perpetuating
2:12racial inequity
2:15now driving this shift was the concept
2:18of disparate impact which is really at
2:20the center of your book so what is the
2:23core idea of disparate impact and can
2:25you trace briefly its Origins and how
2:28it's kind of metastasized in this
2:30post-floid period
2:32thank you Brian and first of all Let me
2:34give a I hate to use the phrase but a
2:36trigger warning uh I'm I'm going to
2:38discuss things that are very
2:40uncomfortable to talk about I'm talking
2:42about group averages in in average
2:45skills average behavioral agricultural
2:48predilections I'm not making any
2:51judgments about any individual within
2:53any particular racial group there are
2:56thousands of individuals in this racial
2:59group or that racial group that
3:01outperform everybody else we can't make
3:04any assumptions about individuals based
3:06on their membership in groups but the
3:09discourse that is tearing down
3:12our civilization that is tearing down
3:14meritocratic standards is itself uh
3:18couched in in grotesque generalities
3:22and it has to be answered
3:25with certain
3:28observations about group performance so
3:33just please steal yourself for some
3:38truths that are really taboo across our
3:41population the idea of disparate impact
3:45is the idea that any standard
3:49meritocratic in terms of academic skills
3:52that has a negative impact on certain
3:55minority groups and above all on blacks
3:58is by definition racist unless in the
4:02legal context it can be justified at a
4:05very high standard of business necessity
4:07so for instance
4:09if you've noticed for the last DEC
4:11several decades there's been challenge
4:13after challenge to
4:15police entrance exams or firefighter
4:18exams and the accusation always is these
4:21are racist exams for no other reason
4:24than blacks fail them at higher rates
4:27than whites and so the Assumption always
4:30is well the exam is racist the
4:33meritocratic standard is racist throw
4:35out the test and lower standards until
4:37we get a standard that will not have a
4:40negative disparate impact what is never
4:42allowed to be looked at and examined is
4:46what are the underlying
4:48average rates of academic skills
4:51the the standards is not itself racist
4:55but now we're going around declaring any
4:58standard that has a disparate impact on
5:01blacks per se racist and we're throwing
5:04them out this began initially in the
5:07context of employment hiring it was a
5:10way of expanding the civil rights laws
5:13beyond the requirement that you needed
5:15to intentionally discriminate an
5:18employer needed to intentionally say I
5:20don't want a higher qualified blacks
5:22that is per se illegal and
5:25unconstitutional disparate impact arose
5:27because it was getting harder and harder
5:29to find employers that were
5:31intentionally discriminating against
5:33competitively qualified minorities and
5:35so the new rule was you could be
5:37completely colorblind as an employer but
5:39if you're using a employment Criterion
5:42that that disqualifies blacks
5:44disproportionately you got to get rid of
5:46it and now that idea has left Way Beyond
5:50the the judicial opinions legal codes
5:54and is simply the lens through which we
5:57judge all of our mainstream institutions
6:01so this this ideology is as you document
6:05in the book corrupting The Sciences
6:08um
6:08this is the opening section of the book
6:10it's it's very alarming and and it's
6:13happening fast
6:14so increasingly diversity and Equity
6:16criteria are ruling everything from
6:20Grants and scholarships to government
6:22scientific appointments uh to even how
6:26medicine is being practiced right
6:28Merit is no longer the leading Criterion
6:31in many of these situations so I wonder
6:34if you could give an overview of this
6:36development and what we stand to lose
6:38with the de-emphasis of Merit in The
6:41Sciences
6:42putting both
6:43Lunt risk with the
6:46on pushing people people head into
6:48medicine who are not competitively
6:50qualified and we're also putting
6:52scientific research at risk but here's
6:54an example of how the disparate impact
6:55analysis Works
6:57College seniors applying to medical
7:00school take something called the mcats
7:02the Medical College admission test
7:04and those have a disparate impact on
7:06black students
7:08blacks MCAT scores are at the rock
7:12bottom
7:13and so various medical schools now are
7:15deciding that for black students they'll
7:18either waive the mcats completely
7:22that's the developing trend for decades
7:25they have been having two separate
7:27standards for admission so blacks are
7:31admitted with MCAT scores that would be
7:33automatically disqualifying if presented
7:36by a white or Asian student a black
7:40student with slightly below average
7:43mcats and GPA has a nine times greater
7:46chance of admission to a medical school
7:48than a white student or Asian student
7:50again these would be scores that would
7:52be disqualifying otherwise the medical
7:54school licensing exam has gone past fail
7:59rather than being graded because again
8:02the the licensing exam has a disparate
8:05impact on black medical students it is
8:08used to screen students for some of the
8:10most competitive residencies during
8:12medical school the schools have decided
8:15we would rather get rid of grades and
8:18the and the actual medical
8:20licensing body would rather get rid of
8:24grades and just and destroy our ability
8:27to actually rank students then give a
8:30completely colorblind neutral test that
8:33has no racial bias in it it's objective
8:36it's computer graded that has a
8:38disparate impact on blacks the the
8:40preferences never end the pressure is
8:43enormous on schools to promote to hire
8:47doctors based on race to promote doctors
8:50based on race to put them in the charge
8:53of medical research and the pressure is
8:56also coming from national funding
8:59agencies the National Institutes of
9:01Health National Science Foundation are
9:04now making race a more important
9:08qualification for receiving medical
9:11grants than actual scientific
9:14qualification if you want to get a grant
9:18for your Alzheimer's research lab or
9:21your neurology a greater neurology lab
9:24you have to show how your work affects
9:27and improves diversity and how your own
9:29lab is working to change the
9:33demographics of its uh of its research
9:36core now frankly I don't care who
9:40discovers the neurological Pathways that
9:43are responsible for Alzheimer's if that
9:46lab is all Chinese if it's all female if
9:50it's all black if it's all white I don't
9:52care
9:53the only thing that matters is are these
9:55the most qualified scientists but in the
9:58United States and uniquely in the United
10:00States we've made the decision that
10:02diversity is more important than
10:04meritocracy meanwhile China doesn't pay
10:09attention to Identity politics and it is
10:11racing Full Speed Ahead trying to throw
10:15everything it's got at its most talented
10:18mathematically inclined and
10:19scientifically inclined students without
10:22saying we have to pull down their
10:24capacity in order to make some
10:28make sure that all groups end up at the
10:31same rate at the end of the line
10:34so that's science the next major part of
10:38the book is on something very close to
10:40your heart which is culture and the Arts
10:44so you describe the Distortion and
10:45vilification of Western High Culture by
10:48activists who see it now primarily as
10:51camouflage for a regime of racial
10:54discrimination and domination
10:56I think what's most striking in reading
11:00your book this part of the book is the
11:02complicity of leading artistic and
11:06institutions in this kind of ongoing
11:08attack on our Western cultural
11:11inheritance and this too I think you
11:13would say has accelerated since since
11:15the George Floyd killing so you know
11:19maybe you could document a little bit
11:20what's been happening there as you do in
11:22the book yeah
11:27yeah running an opera company or an
11:29orchestra or your max hole in the head
11:32of the Metropolitan Museum of Art or
11:34James Rondo the head of the Art
11:36Institute of Chicago you should be down
11:38on your knees in gratitude every day at
11:40your privileged existence to curate
11:43artistic
11:45Traditions that are among the most
11:48Sublime in world history that allow the
11:52human being to escape his Petty narrow
11:57pathetically ignorant self
12:00and and expand into forms of
12:03Consciousness and understanding that are
12:05so much greater than any of us could
12:08ever hope to experience whether it's the
12:12the
12:13orestaya by escalus one of the great
12:16tragic trilogies of the of the classical
12:19Age of Athens to to read sends chills
12:23down your spine
12:25with its perception of the human thirst
12:29for vengeance and the the Transcendence
12:32of finally reaching a rule of law and
12:35and a hope for justice or whether it's
12:39Renaissance poetry pastoral poetry or
12:42the the Langer and Eros of late Brahms
12:46piano music or Chopin nocturnes or the
12:49tragic catharsis that we get from the
12:52box Saint Matthew passion these are
12:55works
12:56that none of us really deserve and it
13:00turns out that the heads of our
13:03classical music organizations our
13:05literature departments our art museums
13:08really don't deserve them
13:10because they are going around telling
13:13the public and what is most criminal is
13:16telling young people
13:18to hate these traditions on the pathetic
13:22grounds that they are came out of Europe
13:26and thus by definition inevitably
13:30were created by Caucasian people
13:34that is the European tradition get over
13:37it it is the past we cannot change it
13:40Europe was not 13 black it probably
13:43still is not
13:45to expect that the Canon of classical
13:49composers
13:50should be 13 black and if it's not it's
13:54per se racist it's Preposterous now of
13:57course there are fantastic black
13:59composers but they arose much later in
14:02our tradition but now you have Alex Ross
14:05the one of the leading classical music
14:08critics in the country writing for the
14:09New Yorker apologizing for himself being
14:12white
14:13and curating a tradition that is he as
14:16he puts it blindingly white he's a he
14:19apologizes for white audiences he
14:21apologizes for white donors the other
14:24most important classical music critic in
14:26the country Anthony tomassini of the New
14:29York Times has called for making
14:34orchestral editions auditions color
14:37conscious
14:39so that musicians can be hired on the
14:42basis of race currently they often start
14:45for several levels behind its screen so
14:48that the auditioners do not know the
14:50identity of of the performers
14:55and as with all things in our disparate
14:59impact obsessed world today we have now
15:01decided that
15:03mechanisms that are
15:05inherently colorblind
15:08are themselves racist and so this
15:11applies to the audition screen it
15:13applies to red light cameras a red light
15:16camera does not know who's driving
15:19uh the car but if red light cameras show
15:22us that in certain neighborhoods blacks
15:24are running red lights or speeding at
15:26higher rates then the camera is racist
15:29and will be thrown out that is going on
15:31across the country
15:33so you have
15:35museums now
15:38erecting wall labels that teach their
15:42viewers to see the great Baroque
15:46masterpieces of the Dutch golden age
15:50these still lives
15:52of translucent grapes
15:55and lemons and silver that is shining in
15:58the light to see those still lives as
16:02colonialists because at the same time as
16:05they were being painted uh
16:08Holland and the Netherlands had Colonial
16:10territories and and so you have this
16:14massive Maya culpa that is being
16:17promulgated by people whose only
16:21obligation in life
16:24is to share this beauty
16:28and to tell young people
16:31come to my museum listen to this music
16:35if you die without hearing these works
16:39you will have lived a poorer life than
16:41you could otherwise have lived but
16:43everything now is being filtered through
16:46the completely spacious lens of racial
16:49inequity
16:52you began to talk about
16:54the question of Law and Order which was
16:56also discussed in the book that gets
16:58into a public policy question you
17:00describe and you have described and
17:02written about this in the past the
17:04disconnect between what residents of
17:07minority neighborhoods have in the past
17:09said they want in law enforcement and
17:12the the Relentless
17:15anti-policing rhetoric of many
17:17legislators and activists and you found
17:20that uh
17:23blacks and other minorities have in the
17:25past anyway appreciated a visible
17:27proactive policing
17:29in fact they've called for police to
17:31take more stringent measures in their
17:33communities I remember used to go to
17:35community meetings in in the Bronx and
17:37elsewhere where that would be what was
17:39discussed
17:41I wonder if that disconnect
17:44continues to hold in the post George
17:46Floyd era am you know more broadly
17:50what influence has the disparate impact
17:52analysis had
17:54on public safety
17:56well disparate impact analysis on Public
17:58Safety has been disastrous absolutely
18:00disastrous The Narrative is is that
18:04colorblind constitutional law
18:07enforcement that has a disparate impact
18:10on black criminals is per se racist uh
18:13and and you have the the
18:18re-doubled
18:19falsehood that black parents are right
18:23to fear that their children will be
18:24killed by a cop or by a white person
18:26every time they step outside that Joe
18:28Biden ran on this during the present his
18:31presidential campaign he said it before
18:34the day before he was inaugurated he
18:36said at his inaugural speech he said it
18:38constantly it is a constant theme
18:41that is a falsehood
18:43uh blacks have a tragically higher rate
18:47of death by gun homicide
18:50blacks between the ages of 10 and 24 die
18:52of gone homicide at 25 times the rate of
18:57whites between the ages of 10 and 24.
18:59that is a civil rights problem that you
19:02would think that civil rights activists
19:04would care about
19:06they will not talk about it because if
19:08they were to talk about it honestly and
19:11look at the actual data what we know
19:13from the victims of witnesses to
19:16shootings fit and non-fatal shootings
19:19and the witnesses to fatal shootings is
19:21that that black death by gun homicide
19:24rate is caused almost exclusively by
19:28black criminals you could take out all
19:30police shootings of black men
19:32today you could take out all white
19:34shootings of black men today it would
19:36have virtually no effect on the black
19:38death by gun homicide rate and yet we
19:43are blaming the cops we're blaming the
19:45criminal law enforcement everything that
19:46you see that you may have been puzzling
19:48over in the post-george Floyd era why
19:52are these prosecutors not Prosecuting
19:54trespass turnstile jumping resisting
19:56arrest which is the most appalling thing
19:58not to prosecute because it's basically
20:01saying to Cops you know open season on
20:03you guys and we don't as prosecutors we
20:05don't care we're decriminalizing
20:07resisting arrest
20:09why are they not Prosecuting gun
20:12possession drug possession prostitution
20:15disorderly conduct loitering
20:18it is all driven by disparate impact
20:21it's all you need to know to understand
20:23our world today the reason that Kim Fox
20:26in Chicago that Alvin Bragg in New York
20:29that George gascon the the worst Soros
20:32prosecutor in the whole country has
20:34decided to put entire categories of
20:37crime off limits to his district
20:39attorneys is because enforcing them have
20:41a disparate impact not because that
20:43enforcement is racist but because the
20:45black crime rate is so much higher
20:47I have spent a lot of time in high crime
20:51neighborhoods talking to the residents
20:52there I go to police Community meetings
20:55and I talk to the good law-abiding
20:58people who deserve the same Freedom From
21:01Fear as residents of Park Avenue and
21:04what I've heard again and again is we
21:06want more police I smell marijuana in my
21:09hallway why can't you do something about
21:11it there's smoking weed on the at the
21:13club that I see outside the window why
21:16can't you arrest those people why are
21:18you allowing kids to hang out by the
21:20hundreds on the corner fighting whatever
21:22happened to truancy laws
21:24people want proactive enforcement that
21:27are living with the effects of
21:30depolicing and the disparate impact
21:33Crusade they never get hurt it is a very
21:36bizarre thing if you were a civil rights
21:38activist and we're going to do sort of a
21:40rawlsian experiment of like imagine
21:42before we know the actual reality of
21:44things you could imagine a civil rights
21:47activist
21:48taking the side of black victims rather
21:51than black criminals
21:53one we even might have expected that
21:57because black victims are the ones that
22:00are whose lives are being destroyed but
22:03all our civil rights activists have
22:04taken the side of black criminals they
22:07say that they would rather not put more
22:10criminals in prison where they cannot
22:13continue preying on
22:15elderly black ladies who are terrified
22:18to go into their building Lobby to pick
22:21up their mail when when kids are there
22:23trespassing smoking weed and selling
22:26drugs
22:27they would rather allow those
22:30good
22:31honest law-abiding people to just have
22:35to figure things out for themselves then
22:38make arrests and increase any racial
22:42disparities that we have in prison and
22:44that to me is a very perverse decision
22:48it sort of looks to me at this point
22:51like the only people who care about
22:53black lives are a the police and white
22:55conservatives because the only people
22:57we're talking about crime before the
22:592022 elections were basically
23:02conservative news outlets
23:04but they were accused for for for doing
23:07racist dog whistles
23:10if you talk about black victims you're a
23:12racist it's a very curious thing I can
23:14tell you if black and if white
23:16conservatives stop paying attention to
23:17Crime nobody's going to pay attention
23:19the New York Times sure as hell doesn't
23:21give a damn about black victims the only
23:24black victims they ever care about are
23:26those that are killed by a cop and those
23:27are very small in 2021
23:30there were six unarmed blacks killed by
23:34police officers
23:35fatally shot by police officers a police
23:37officer was 400 times more likely to be
23:42killed by a black male than an unarmed
23:44black was to be killed by a police
23:45officer
23:46but those are the data that are not
23:49allowed into the public discourse
23:52racial preferences in hiring and
23:56academic admissions another theme of
23:58your book clearly diminish opportunities
24:00for disfavored or unfavored groups
24:03so policies designed to boost the
24:05prospects of black and to some extent
24:07Hispanic applicants often disadvantaged
24:10whites and and Asians with who have
24:13higher scores or or often better
24:15credentials who are vying for the same
24:18positions
24:19you know disparate impact adherence
24:22dismiss this kind of racial rebalancing
24:24act as necessary to advance the life
24:27chances of underprivileged minorities
24:31uh but you would have to say this is
24:33wildly unfair to the newly disadvantaged
24:36we could call them and a sure way to
24:39perpetuate and increase racial tensions
24:41over time so
24:44that would be one question
24:46you know what what is the reaction going
24:48to be to the perpetuation of these
24:51policies and and then looking at the
24:53policies themselves how do racial
24:55preference policies have an impact on
24:58their intended beneficiaries it's not
25:00always a positive thing right Asians are
25:03getting radicalized on this because they
25:06are screwed the most uh
25:09the the standards for getting in if
25:12you're Asian into selective schools get
25:15higher and higher because the numbers
25:17are of the they're allowed to be
25:19admitted in order to set aside spots for
25:22the dis for the racial preference
25:24beneficiaries get smaller and smaller so
25:27they have to you know the the schools
25:29that purport to say well the SATs are
25:32racist if they haven't if they have
25:35banned SATs completely
25:37they are calculating Asians scores out
25:41to the 0.001 decimal you know you have
25:44to be
25:45play not just it's no longer probably
25:47enough to play the violin in the piano
25:49monologue you probably better add the
25:50bassoon you probably also better be
25:52really good at baseball and uh you know
25:56get the math Olympiad
25:58um so there's starting to be a reaction
26:01we see this especially at the high
26:03school level where various exam schools
26:06that are uh
26:09trying to create environments for people
26:13that are the most academically uh
26:16motivated like Stuyvesant City in
26:18private school in New York city that has
26:21a colorblind objective computer-graded
26:24exam to get in
26:26uh it's I think 70 Asian and there's
26:30Decades of pressure to say get rid of
26:34the exam start admitting by race it
26:36hasn't yet there's been sort of tweaking
26:38but other places have gotten rid of
26:41their exams Lowell High School in San
26:42Francisco
26:43was also predominantly Asian and they
26:47went to a lottery system instead of the
26:50exam not surprisingly the first year
26:52after the lottery was instituted the
26:55rates of D's and F's went up 300 percent
26:58of Thomas Jefferson High School in
27:01Virginia also has gotten rid of its
27:03neutral colorblind completely objective
27:05admissions test because they want to
27:08engineer greater racial proportionality
27:10Asians are starting to get radicalized
27:13on this
27:14the the equity argument against racial
27:18preferences has has been the favored one
27:21for conservatives for years that this is
27:24reverse discrimination it's not fair to
27:26people who have done nothing you know
27:29Asians are not responsible for slave
27:30slavery and frankly none of us today are
27:33either unless you do believe in the
27:35inheritance of acquired characteristics
27:37and we all somehow now are bearing the
27:40genes of of um and and and
27:42responsibility of slaveholders and let
27:44me also put in an aside here
27:47our racial history is appalling it is
27:50sickening we were a white supremacist
27:52country we were in a parthened country
27:55whites treated blacks with
27:58excruciating cruelty contempt gratuitous
28:02nastiness until very recently we are not
28:05that country today
28:06we are not as incredible as it would
28:09have been to expect that even by the
28:131960s
28:14there is not a single mainstream
28:16institution today that is not twisting
28:18itself into knots to hire and promote as
28:20many black
28:21applicants as possible
28:24if you are I would like to know any
28:27black student applying to a college
28:30today who's going to put down his race
28:32as white because he thinks that's going
28:34to help him get in
28:37to the contrary if your white
28:39heterosexual
28:41male son can get away with putting his
28:43race down as black
28:45he'd be better off doing so
28:50the argument has traditionally been
28:52couched against racial preferences that
28:54it's unfair to whites and Asians and I
28:57get that but as far as I'm concerned and
29:00that's what equal protection
29:01jurisprudence and the the the case
29:03before The Supreme Court that is
29:05challenging Harvard's preferences and
29:07the University of North Carolina's
29:08preferences will probably use the same
29:11old tired equal protection jurisprudence
29:14of strict scrutiny and it it's all it's
29:16got so many fictions in it it makes me
29:18want to throw up I hope and this is very
29:21unlikely that they actually overturn
29:24racial preferences on a pragmatic ground
29:27which is something known as mismatch
29:29which is that preferences do not do
29:32their beneficiaries any favor and let me
29:34take it out of the race
29:36context and put it into the sex context
29:40if MIT admitted me with six hundreds on
29:43my Math SATs and I'm not going to tell
29:45you what they actually were and I'm not
29:47sure I remember them but I sort of do
29:48and I had 600 of my Math SATs on an 800
29:51point scale
29:53and all of my peers that were not the
29:55so-called beneficiaries of preferences
29:57had eight hundreds on their Math SATs I
30:00am going to flunk
30:02my freshman Calculus class
30:04and I'm going to struggle if I even
30:07stick with a stem field throughout my
30:10class and of course mit's diversity
30:13bureaucracy will tell me well you're the
30:15victim of misogyny you're in a
30:18anti-female environment whereas the
30:20reality is no I'm in an environment for
30:23which I'm not competitively qualified
30:26there is no shame in going to a second
30:30tier School Boston College and Boston
30:32University provide perfectly good
30:36serviceable educations if if I'd been
30:39admitted instead of propelled propelled
30:42above my
30:44capacity at that time
30:47to a school for which I was
30:48competitively qualified where I shared
30:50my peers qualifications I would do
30:52perfectly well the same happens with
30:55blacks
30:56they are not helped by putting their the
31:00bearing the almost unique burden of
31:03having to compete in environments for
31:05which they're not competitively
31:06qualified and the results speak for
31:09themselves
31:10law schools employ vast racial
31:14preferences here's what happens at the
31:16end of the first year of law school
31:18first year law grades are all colorblind
31:22they are Anonymous teachers don't know
31:25who's writing the blue books
31:2751 percent of black
31:31law students at the end of their first
31:33year in law school end up at the bottom
31:3510 percent of their class
31:38two-thirds of black law students at the
31:41end of their first year of law school
31:42end up at the bottom 20 percent of their
31:45class
31:46the the gaps never close
31:50this is not something that is a good way
31:53of reducing racial stereotyping but it
31:56is also not a good way to increase the
31:58number of black lawyers because the
32:01number of blacks who fail the bar six
32:05times in a row and never pass it is six
32:07times higher than whites because they
32:09black students have been put at the
32:11disadvantage of being in law schools
32:14where they are not competitively
32:16qualified
32:17of course blacks should become lawyers
32:20and go to law school they should go
32:22under the same conditions as everybody
32:24else and not have this burden of the
32:28preference catapult that makes it harder
32:32to compete so I hope that somebody has
32:36put in an amicus brief to the Supreme
32:38Court and and Clarence Thomas or John
32:41Roberts will say this is the thing that
32:43I want the public to understand about
32:46this preference regime that we've been
32:48living with since Bakke in 1978 that has
32:53not just destroyed meritocratic
32:54standards but has been an actual
32:57disability for the people who purport to
32:59benefit from it
33:01those who speak honestly and stand up to
33:05this regime this disparate impact regime
33:09they risk losing their livelihood and
33:12social standing at least in some cases
33:15and so your book includes interviews
33:17with several employees of prestigious
33:19scientific and cultural institutions
33:21they vehemently oppose racial preference
33:24preferences they see what what you've
33:27described going on but they're unwilling
33:29to express their sentiments publicly and
33:33you can understand that because of the
33:34fear of consequences so I wonder you
33:37know does opposition Within These
33:39institutions to defend Merit uh does
33:42someone who do this does this
33:45become a martyr is is that their only
33:47choice or are there other ways to fight
33:50back against this yeah
33:52finishing this book I asked an
33:53oncologist who had been directed by the
33:56they have the natural cancer institutes
33:59that give something out called the
34:02outstanding investigator Awards and
34:04these are awards that the federal
34:06government gives to the most
34:09cutting-edge cancer researchers that are
34:12doing high-risk science in other words
34:14it has a high risk of total failure it
34:17may be based on a theory that is so off
34:19the wall that it's it's not ever going
34:21to produce any results but if it does
34:23produce results wow this is this has a
34:27possibility to be absolutely Paradigm
34:30shattering and these investigator awards
34:33are very lucrative they exempt uh
34:37oncology researchers from you can
34:40basically take six years off from
34:42teaching in order to just focus
34:43exclusively on this fight
34:46and I talked to an oncologist who lives
34:49to cure cancer that's all he wants in
34:52his life
34:53and he had been notified by the head or
34:57the deputy director of the national
34:58cancer institutes
35:00say the outstanding investigator Awards
35:03have not been going so well recently
35:04they're not diverse enough
35:07please broaden the criteria for
35:10nominations and send us more diverse
35:12candidates so that we can award more
35:15diverse Awards not a word about
35:17meritocracy this was not about the
35:20scientific qualifications that you've
35:22been sending us are inadequate we want a
35:25higher tier of scientists no that was
35:27not what the game was about it was about
35:29lower your standards so that we can show
35:32diverse faces when we have our class of
35:35of wardies and I said when are you guys
35:37going to stand up against this
35:40this is sickening and he said we need
35:42our jobs we want our jobs if we stand up
35:46we will be crushed those who have done
35:49so are now complete pariahs the whole
35:52system it's going to take 50 years it's
35:54going to have to collapse completely and
35:56be rebuilt from the ground up
35:58and I I feel for him
36:01I would say people in my position who
36:04are not in canceling institutions and
36:07thank you the Manhattan Institute for
36:09not canceling me yet
36:14we'll see uh when the Twitter starts
36:17coming fall you know coming in and what
36:19C-SPAN has to say about this I don't
36:21know
36:22but those of us who are more insulated
36:26have an absolute obligation to give the
36:29the facts
36:30that explain disparate impact I am not
36:34going to be cowed into silence it's too
36:37late it's too late it's all coming down
36:41uh
36:43People Like Us have to speak up I in the
36:46book you know I'm I I'll give you an
36:48honest description here of what like
36:51writers and speakers are under you're
36:54supposed to always have a positive
36:55solution even though I'm a pessimist and
36:58I don't necessarily feel very optimistic
37:01but but audiences want to believe
37:03there's hope and there's something they
37:05can all rally behind so I'm scratching
37:07my head and what can I do with the
37:09solution because it frankly looks to me
37:11a very tough nut to crack
37:13so I came up with an idea of an
37:16institution that would be
37:18apart from any particular institution
37:21like somebody's medical school or
37:24somebody's Tech startup that would be
37:28ready to snap into action Whenever there
37:31is a amazingly surprisingly courageous
37:35scientist like Norman Wang and
37:37electrophysiologists at the University
37:38of Pittsburgh who ran a lab had had
37:43all sorts of students that he was
37:46advising top in his field he dared write
37:50an article in a scientific journal
37:52saying racial preferences in medicine
37:54are not working out we've tried them
37:57they're not working out we're lowering
37:58our standards we're not helping Advance
38:00medicine we're not helping the students
38:03he was completely canceled he was taken
38:06off his post he was stripped of his
38:08research capacity he's not allowed to
38:11have any contact with students this is
38:13what happens
38:14people are destroyed by telling the
38:17truth
38:18and so I thought maybe if we could have
38:20an organization that would have at their
38:22fingertips data on the academic skills
38:25Gap put them out there put them out
38:27there on the crime Gap so that when the
38:29police are being vilified and and we
38:32have now a total recruiting and
38:33retention crisis there is hardly a big
38:36city police department that is anywhere
38:38close to the number of officers it needs
38:41in order to fight crime even if the
38:43prosecutors were willing to actually
38:45bring a case against a shoplifter or a
38:49thief but they don't have the officers
38:51to make those arrests because there's
38:53been such a post-george Floyd flight
38:56from the profession
38:57so if we could have an organization that
38:59would give the data to support this
39:02that's one hope otherwise all I can say
39:05is is courage refuse to apologize
39:08refused to back down
39:10because at this point
39:14I believe there is a good argument to be
39:16made for racial etiquette and as I say
39:18these are uncomfortable things to talk
39:21about nobody wants to hear about it
39:24but the time for racial etiquette is
39:26over
39:28because as long as racism Remains the
39:31only allowable explanation for racial
39:33disparities in a medical school in an
39:37Alzheimer's lab
39:38in a classical music orchestra in a bank
39:42in your corporation
39:44in a newspaper as long as racial
39:47disparities Remain the only allowable
39:48explanation it's all coming down
39:51and we have to be able to fight back
39:53with the actual explanation which are
39:55these tragic disparities that we can all
39:58agree
39:59need to be fixed and we all have
40:01different explanations or solutions for
40:03fixing them but they need to be solved
40:06at the core spot at the family at the at
40:11the earliest ages of childhood to
40:14socialize children to get rid of the
40:16anti-acting white ethic which penalizes
40:20many black students who are doing their
40:23homework who are taking their textbooks
40:25home who believe that they can meet
40:27standards who want to learn
40:29and if they are criticized by their
40:32peers for acting White
40:34that's something that is very hard to
40:37overcome that has to change but but 22
40:40years down the line saying well the
40:43solution for this is to get rid of
40:45standards of medical competence or
40:48engineering
40:49or chemistry and have double standards
40:53of admission that is not how we solve it
40:55and we have to start explaining why
40:59our institutions are not at present
41:02racially proportionate we can hope that
41:04they will be with a more honest the only
41:07way they will be is with a more honest
41:09discourse and it is paternalistic it is
41:13condescending to lower standards
41:17rather than saying we know that
41:19everybody can meet those standards
41:23thank you I think we would like to open
41:25it up to the floor and please wait for
41:29the microphone
41:30left about 15 minutes for questions so
41:33we'll uh we'll start up front here with
41:35the gentleman at the end here just wait
41:37for the microphone please
41:42uh Mark castorino professor at Rutgers
41:45University
41:46and before I
41:49what is Trump's name have to show up
41:51there when is what Trump's name have to
41:55show up
41:57oh
41:59sorry about that
42:01I think we thought about that but
42:03probably the only brown person in the
42:05audience
42:07but I want to say something about where
42:09Merit Trump's race
42:11I'm an Indian
42:13and my country was ruled for 200 years
42:17by the White Band from across the seas
42:20in 1947
42:22we got our independence
42:25as a people and as a nation we refuse to
42:28look back
42:30but decided to forge ahead
42:33today fear of my countrymen who went to
42:37the same universities I went to
42:39around three of the largest companies in
42:41the world
42:42Microsoft Google and IBM another two
42:47Indians became governors of two Southern
42:50States in this country and another
42:52Indian is now prime minister of Britain
42:55the quickest now my advice to
42:59Harvard University and the New York
43:01Times
43:02stop this narrative about race okay it
43:06doesn't help the people you're trying to
43:08help
43:09take the message from the Indians who
43:12made it or Merit not on race
43:15thank you yes
43:18[Applause]
43:20yeah they have a they have a heart
43:21problem with the white privilege conceit
43:23when Asians are whooping everybody's ass
43:26you know uh so but of course you know we
43:29know we know all of the rhetorical
43:31twists and turns about that of well
43:33they're white adjacent and no they're
43:35not they're not
43:37um you know they it is it is academic
43:40effort it is family culture if you you
43:43cannot learn if you're not in school the
43:46black truancy rate is very high
43:48nobody can actually at this point the
43:52the learning to read the student has to
43:55do it himself
43:56and racializing this does not help the
43:59effort has to come from within and it
44:01and if effort is made we are an open
44:04Society we are waiting with welcome open
44:07arms
44:09all right let's move to the back of the
44:11room so uh I'll go to the left uh way in
44:15the back there I can just see your hand
44:22I Heather enjoyed your talk generally
44:24agree with your thesis but it sounded
44:27like you were assuming that there is
44:30necessarily a problem with our
44:32institutions not being racially
44:34proportionate and that's not at all
44:37obvious to me it seems to me that's
44:39inevitable that there will be racial
44:41disparities even significant ones in
44:43some institutions and not in others and
44:45that could just simply be a reflection
44:47of different cultural norms and
44:49preferences of different
44:51ethnic and cultural groups in our
44:53society
44:54yeah that's true I guess I'm having to
44:58focus on
45:00the charge that racial disparities in
45:04institutions is per se a sign of racism
45:07somewhere you know that it's very hard
45:09this is at this point systemic racism is
45:11like flagistan it's like this vaporous
45:14thing that we just have to believe is
45:16out there and nobody can really point to
45:18where it is exactly but
45:22I guess rather than just saying well we
45:25will have disparities get over it I'm I
45:29feel like I my engagement at this point
45:32is to explain those disparities and
45:37and then it's a slightly different
45:39argument in one sense we're making the
45:41same argument which in light of the
45:43academic skills gaps and the behavior
45:46gaps in crime yes of course we're going
45:48to have lack of racial proportionality
45:51um so
45:54the assumption that there would be equal
45:56outcomes
45:59is only valid
46:01if if
46:03cultures at this point were different
46:05but I can tell you
46:07the Asian culture the tiger mom culture
46:12puts everything else to shame and if you
46:14juxtapose that to the inner city culture
46:16the behavioral disparities are so great
46:19it astounds me that apparently my good
46:23friends on the left actually believe
46:25that the best explanation for
46:29the lack of disparities is racism and
46:32not what is quite empirically provable
46:35about how the home cultures differ
46:40um
46:41woman in the
46:43yes you yes thank you just wait for the
46:46mic please
46:48thank you
46:50um
46:51I agree and everybody agrees that the
46:54election of these woke gas and Mayors
46:57affect minority communities even greater
47:00than white communities in major cities
47:01but how do you explain Johnson winning
47:04in Chicago when
47:07um you know there's no they were both
47:09both candidates were Democrats one was
47:12Law and Order one was criminal coddly
47:14how do you explain that yeah it's um and
47:18in fact he got the biggest vote in the
47:21highest crime
47:23precincts in areas I think I I mean
47:28I'm really presuming here
47:31and I do this with great trepidation but
47:33you've asked me but it is it is at some
47:36point it is not for me
47:38to
47:40pronounce on black voting behavior
47:45but it would seem that there is a
47:47conflict you know I I've made it a
47:51mission to give voice to the people that
47:54the New York Times refuses to listen to
47:56that really are desperate for more
47:59police protection
48:01they vote
48:03I I think that they're I don't again
48:06this is it is presumptuous of me to
48:09hypothesize but I will offer hypothesis
48:11that there is a conflict uh within
48:15blacks there's a tradition
48:17and as you say they're both Democrats uh
48:20but there is something perhaps seductive
48:23about the racism narrative that a lot of
48:28Voters are not willing to give up yet
48:31and Brandon Johnson is was peddling the
48:34argument that the police are racist it's
48:38also maybe it's attractive that oh more
48:41services are the solution I'm skeptical
48:43of that maybe that appealed to people
48:46but it is it I would say that the
48:50conservative Safe Harbor argument which
48:54I may be guilty of perpetuating
48:56sometimes myself which is to to starkly
49:00say well the polls do show you know if
49:03you do Quinnipiac polls routinely show
49:06if you ask blacks do you want more
49:08broken windows quality of life
49:10enforcement they will say yes at higher
49:12rates than whites and yet they will also
49:16vote for the anti cop candidate
49:24that's true too these are all very
49:27difficult things and it's hard for white
49:29people to talk about it there are some
49:31great black leaders out there and I hope
49:35that they get more attention and get
49:37more followers because the race Hustle
49:40is is
49:42seductive it's a narcotic
49:45it has been working but it's got to stop
49:48now and and frankly I'm going to
49:51racialize this and again excuse me for
49:54violating racial etiquette I know these
49:56are extremely raw matters
50:00but I I've
50:01I'm fed up I've seen too much happening
50:04to the things I love
50:06we can't allow ourselves to be
50:09brow beaten by the race hustle any
50:11longer we have to believe in equal
50:13opportunity in standards we cannot
50:17continue maligning colorblind
50:20meritocratic standards
50:22this gentleman here with the tie just
50:24wait for the the microphone please
50:33coming
50:34many of microns thank you for a great
50:37talk thank you uh before I ask my
50:40question I'm a retired associate
50:42professor of medicine and oncology uh
50:45what you spoke about hit me during the
50:48covet epidemic the initial data was that
50:51it's occurring more in African Americans
50:54and Caucasians anyone who's ever done
50:57any clinical research would
50:59automatically look at subgroup analysis
51:01you would look compare affluent whites
51:04to affluent blacks
51:06and poor whites to poor blacks you would
51:10have quickly picked up that it's due to
51:13affluence poor people are huddled
51:16together in their apartments and we
51:18probably would have saved a lot of lives
51:19doing the subgroup analysis which for
51:22some reason was not done I actually
51:24wrote a letter to the Wall Street
51:26Journal even though they published other
51:28letters of mine they didn't publish that
51:30so with this sort of silliness we look I
51:34think we lost lives during coping my
51:36question to you however is what do we do
51:38about it you know these people like
51:40Professor Wang in Pittsburgh when
51:42they're fired there should be a fund to
51:45get good lawyers for them to sue the
51:47institutions and once these people get
51:50hurt and not with fines they may back
51:52off when you get their pocketbook they
51:54may start listening until they get hurt
51:56they're not going to listen to anyone
51:58and that's probably the cheapest way of
52:00doing it getting them good legal
52:02representation to find out why they were
52:04fired and no one to my knowledge has
52:07done that so can you answer that has
52:09anyone done that or thinking of it yes
52:11there's some lawsuits going Timothy
52:13Jackson at the University of North Texas
52:16has been run off the job because he
52:20uh ran he he headed a music Journal of
52:24musicology built around a Austrian music
52:28theorist named uh Schenker that has been
52:32very influential in the United States
52:34there's a a black musicologist at uh
52:39Hunter College here in New York City
52:41part of the CUNY system that has the
52:43most absolutely insane theory that
52:47because Shanker talks about hierarchies
52:50in tonal value and and it is in making
52:55sort of hierarchical analysis of music
52:57that this is about race that somehow
53:00that that so all classical music is
53:03racist any or anything that has any kind
53:06of hierarchy if it's like fields of of
53:08physical forces that's racist the this
53:11this Yule is absolute madman but he's
53:14beloved in the musicology profession of
53:16course they all Alex Ross loved him from
53:19The New Yorker so Jackson
53:21published a symposium in the Journal of
53:24shankarian studies that had critical
53:26actually people being sort of cautiously
53:29critical of Philip buell's bizarre
53:32theory of hierarchies and musical
53:34analysis being racist
53:37and he was they they canceled his
53:39program they canceled his journal they
53:42took him off of policing he's he's suing
53:44uh so there are suits going on there's a
53:47guy in Florida that's suing so yes
53:49that's a very good idea I would I would
53:52I would actually though complicate your
53:55observation about covid I would say that
53:57one of the worst consequences of the
54:00racial hysteria in medicine is to say
54:03that uh racial disparities in health
54:07outcomes are themselves also the result
54:09of racism and again you are not allowed
54:12to talk about Behavior so you may have
54:13noticed that it's not allowed any longer
54:16to say that obesity is bad for one's
54:19Health we're all supposed to be fat
54:21positive and celebrate obesity like this
54:24is really good and that is has a racial
54:27uh angle and so the Scientific American
54:31has published whole you have all these
54:34medical journals that are devoting
54:35entire issues to the issue the idea of
54:37racism and medicine and they published a
54:40study saying that to talk about that we
54:44should try and lower black obesity rates
54:47that that's racist
54:49and so the the only allowable
54:52explanation for racial disparities in
54:54health outcomes is that doctors are
54:56racist what you're not allowed to talk
54:58about is
54:59exercise
55:01better medication compliance maybe
55:04people need help if you're in a poor
55:07neighborhood get help getting to your
55:09medical appointment but I can tell you
55:11you can talk to Inner City doctors
55:13though that work in big university
55:15medical centers and they will tell you
55:17about differences in people showing up
55:20for postnatal prenatal uh visits and
55:24care
55:25there are race differences there
55:27but you're not allowed to talk about
55:29that
55:30it's only doctor racism and that means
55:33that we are not going to be saving black
55:35lives because we're not allowed to talk
55:37about the behavioral components of race
55:40disparities and I would say that covid
55:42the Obesity is probably the greater
55:46reason for uh the the black white
55:48disparities that we saw in in covid
55:52mortality rates
55:54all right I'll I'll uh ask the final
55:56question here as we're out of time and
55:58this is a personal one Heather you know
56:00in this book and throughout your career
56:02at City Journal and elsewhere you've
56:04written about
56:06some pretty upsetting Trends in American
56:09life so I you mentioned you're a
56:12pessimist
56:13I wonder what motivates you to keep
56:16going
56:17uh sorrow and rage
56:22[Applause]
56:25my heart is broken on a daily basis to
56:28see the things I love
56:30torn down with such ignorance
56:33uh and and there's not just the things
56:36that I love but so many people love and
56:39uh I can't take it any longer and I'm
56:42I'm furious at the ignorance that is
56:47allowed to dominate our culture and our
56:51civilization uh I've I'm the most
56:54privileged person in the world to have
56:56had a liberal arts education the
56:58humanities to be able to have read
57:00English literature before I was in
57:03before anybody thought to instruct me
57:05that I should feel oppressed by reading
57:08dead white males it never occurred to me
57:11or to my peers to reject
57:14reading John Milton or Alexander Pope or
57:16William Wordsworth or Edmund Spencer or
57:20strawser because they were white males
57:22all I knew was that I couldn't
57:24understand Milton's syntax in Paradise
57:27Lost and that that was what failed me
57:29not his his dead white maleness so I had
57:33to work very hard at that but I'm glad
57:35that I did and and Milton's vision of
57:38paradise in paradise lost is one of the
57:41most uh
57:43essentially charged acts of of
57:47linguistic Beauty and accomplishment of
57:50of utter richness of of fecundity the
57:54world that he describes I am very
57:56privileged that I got to read those
57:58books and it it breaks my heart that
58:02Generations that have come after me have
58:04been given excuses for their own
58:07ignorance and all they care about is
58:10pursuing these fictions of their own
58:14victimhood and and their alleged
58:16fragility it's nauseating I can't stand
58:20it and we all have to stop being brow
58:23beaten into Silence by all whether it's
58:25the fiction of fragility and safety the
58:28fiction of racial oppression we have to
58:31start fighting back and fight for our
58:33civilization
58:34well on that note I want to thank you
58:36heather
58:37[Applause]

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