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Amazing Atheist Documentary | (HD) — Transcript

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0:15Here are two atheists, Justin and John.
0:19Justin was amazing. He was the most
0:21polite and likable atheist I've ever
0:23met. And John, how can I put it?
0:27He produced the most morally depraved
0:29YouTube video I've ever seen. I couldn't
0:31describe how sickening and horribly
0:34blasphemous it was.
0:37However, both of these men were kind
0:39enough to take up my invitation to chat
0:41about the things of God via the
0:42internet.
0:44Let's begin with a little background by
0:45looking at a few clips from a video
0:47produced by Justin, who as you'll see
0:49introduces Christian brother. Then we'll
0:51look at a carefully selected portion of
0:53John's video before we talk with him.
1:10Hey everyone. So today, we're going to
1:12talk about the longest-running
1:13experiment in the history of this
1:15planet, one that's been going on for
1:17over 3 and 1/2 billion years. In many
1:20ways, it can be thought of as the
1:22culmination of all the principles we've
1:24discussed during our time together. This
1:26experiment, being overseen by the
1:28universe itself, is the vehicle through
1:30which all life on this planet has been
1:31realized and is known to many as the
1:34process of evolution. From that moment
1:36on, life has advanced through the ages
1:39up to this very moment, giving us the
1:41unbelievable diversity of organisms
1:43which we are able to see and enjoy every
1:45day.
1:46And we have nothing other than evolution
1:48to thank.
1:49This is known as natural selection.
1:51Over time, enough of these adaptations
1:54are made such that a speciation event
1:56occurs, wherein a new species is born.
2:00That's it for us. Reminding you to
2:02always ask questions.
2:04Oh, look at that.
2:05Mr. Comfort, this is this is such a
2:08privilege for me to be able to speak
2:09with you. Thank you.
2:11it's a privilege for me to speak to you,
2:13too. Oh, um let's see. Yeah, get
2:16yourself a little higher in your screen
2:18if you could. Yes, sir. You're Justin?
2:20Yes, sir.
2:21Oh, nice to meet you, Justin. It's
2:23wonderful to meet you. Before we begin,
2:25can I have my brother come in to say
2:26hello to you? Is that Jeremy? Yes, sir.
2:29I'd love to love to see him. Wonderful.
2:32He would just love to say hello. He'd
2:33love to say hello to Yes.
2:41This is really you. This is always
2:42legitimate. Yeah, that's
2:45Nice to meet you.
2:46don't want to take too much of your
2:47time. I have to say, I've watched The
2:49Fool you made, and that that is just
2:53that is just such an outstanding piece
2:55of content you created. But after
2:57watching that and really seeing your
2:58experience, it's like, "Wow." This took
3:00it to another level. And so
3:02watch it? Yes. Yes, he did. Uh he loves
3:05you, man. He does. Oh, really?
3:07He's still an atheist, unfortunately,
3:08but I mean, he definitely loves you.
3:16But you know, I forgot that I had come
3:18across this Ray Comfort video that he
3:19put on Twitter. So when I saw this, I
3:21was like, "Oh, I wonder what Ray
3:22Comfort's got to say. Surely he's not
3:24going to say something dumb."
3:27Wouldn't you know it, he said something
3:28dumb. So I thought that I would react to
3:30this video from him because it's just
3:33oh, it's so bad and laughable. Like, I
3:36don't know why anybody believes Ray
3:38Comfort.
3:39If you're interested in Ray Comfort
3:42and laughing a lot about it, then please
3:45stay tuned.
3:49Some of these interviews are so totally
3:51ridiculous. I mean, there was that one
3:53interview in his whole What was it? The
3:56Atheist Delusion or something like that,
3:58where it's um it's got got this old guy
4:00in it, and he's talking about how he's
4:02an atheist and how nothing means
4:03anything. And it's just like so
4:05stereotypically
4:08the view that Christians have of
4:11atheists, right? You're an atheist, so
4:13you believe the scientific impossibility
4:15that nothing created everything. I
4:17wouldn't say nothing created it. There
4:19had to be something there in the
4:20beginning.
4:20You are a moral being. You're not like a
4:22dog or a cat. You care about justice and
4:24truth. That's why you're upset about
4:26little kids getting killed and molested,
4:28because you're made in God's image. If
4:29you're a dog, you couldn't care less.
4:30You're
4:31you're created in God's image with a
4:33knowledge of right and wrong. What wrong
4:34things have you done in your life? My
4:36guess is is that these quote-unquote
4:37wrong things that you've done in your
4:39life aren't actually bad or wrong. They
4:42want to put out content like this that
4:45is meant to convince like people of
4:47other faiths or non-faith or whatever
4:50that they are somehow sinning, and they
4:53should feel, you know, bad and that they
4:55should feel like they deserve hell.
4:57That's something that Ray Comfort has
4:58literally said on
5:02Oh, uh sorry, Ray. I can't hear you.
5:06Uh hold on, it might be a problem on my
5:08end.
5:09Uh yep, it's my problem. Okay, try now.
5:15I'm messing with you.
5:16Oh, oh.
5:20Okay.
5:22How you doing, John? I'm delighted to
5:24meet you.
5:25Yeah, I'm delighted to meet you, too,
5:27man. Uh I've been watching your stuff
5:29for a long time, so uh it's been it's
5:31great to finally meet you.
5:34Now, tell me, why you an atheist?
5:37Okay. Um
5:39so, I guess I first became an atheist
5:41during my
5:43freshman year of college.
5:45Um
5:46you know, I wasn't raised explicitly in
5:49any church teaching. Um I went to church
5:51a little bit as a young child. You don't
5:53know me. You can't help it. Yes, sir.
5:56No, no doubt about that. And especially
5:58when I was in junior high and um
6:00Oklahoma, I remember a lot of my peers
6:01really started talking about God and
6:04Christianity. And so I aligned myself
6:06with that through high school, and it
6:09just came to pass
6:11and so this was a long time ago, but
6:13during my freshman year
6:14of college where I just kind of realized
6:18I don't know why I claim to believe in
6:22God. So tell me, why you an atheist?
6:26Uh me, uh I'm an atheist because uh I
6:30was challenged by a friend uh that that
6:34you have to believe in the Bible
6:36literally from cover to cover in order
6:39to be a true or real Christian. And so I
6:43I immediately knew that I wasn't
6:44considered a true Christian at that
6:46point because I had uh already accepted,
6:49you know, evolution and a lot of uh
6:52scientific principles that kind of fly
6:54in the face of the Bible. I had a
6:56reconversion moment a couple years
6:57later, back to Christianity, and got
6:59baptized, and started going to church,
7:01and then you know, that after a couple
7:04of years went back to, you know,
7:06full-fledged atheism.
7:09So, this is in your teenage years? I
7:11would have been, yes, sir. I that would
7:13have been around 19 20. Okay.
7:1619 or 20, that's the second time?
7:18First time, that would have been the
7:19first time. Oh, really?
7:20maybe 19.
7:21You lasted as a professing Christian
7:23within the church all your teenage
7:25years?
7:27I say You say as a professing Christian,
7:29I mean, very lukewarm,
7:30right? Would have been incredibly
7:32lukewarm. Um occasionally went to
7:34retreats
7:36um with my friends on a few instances.
7:38We'd talk about I had friends, you know,
7:40that we would talk about um religious
7:42things. The Bible says a Christian is
7:44someone who knows God personally.
7:46Did you know the Lord of I mean, I felt
7:48like I knew the Lord. Uh
7:50I mean, I would pray to him. I would uh
7:53you know,
7:54think about, you know, what what the the
7:58the very cliché line of what would Jesus
8:00do. I really tried to when when I when I
8:03was a Christian, I tried to really model
8:05myself after what I thought Jesus would
8:08do. Now, can you tell me
8:10what are the advantages of being an
8:12atheist? Can you give me a few, because
8:14um Yes, sir. I'd like to know. I've
8:16often asked atheists that, and some
8:18atheists can't come up with anything.
8:20And I say, "Well, why are you an
8:20atheist, then?"
8:22Well, I mean, I I can't really name like
8:25a single benefit or or even a list of
8:28benefits uh other than uh I mean, I do
8:31feel like I'm
8:33uh you know, rationally considering what
8:36I believe now instead of how I was
8:39previously, and that was just listening
8:41and believing to what people were
8:43telling me, and you know, as soon as,
8:45you know, I I realized that I didn't
8:47believe in a God, all of that kind of
8:49fell away, but you know, my moral system
8:52didn't change. Uh
8:54my my core person that I am didn't
8:57change at all, you know? So
8:59uh I mean, I just didn't feel guilty for
9:02things that I just don't need to feel
9:04guilty about. Right, like watching porn?
9:08Huh? Like watching porn.
9:11I mean, I've watched porn before.
9:13There's nothing wrong with it. That's
9:15right. There's no need to feel guilty
9:16about it if you choose atheism, because
9:18there's no right or wrong. The big
9:20benefit for being an atheist is that
9:23it's liberating, and you can do things
9:26that your heart desires without feeling
9:28a sense of guilt, like fornicating with
9:30a girl, looking at pornography. There's
9:33no sense of guilt if you're an atheist,
9:35because there's no moral absolutes. Am I
9:37right or wrong?
9:39Mm uh no, I mean, I would say that
9:41you're wrong, because uh even on
9:44Christianity, there's no moral
9:45absolutes. Well, the Ten Commandments
9:47are absolute. They're written in stone.
9:50Fill me in. Tell me the advantages of
9:52being an atheist. Yes, sir. It's
9:54actually part of probably the largest
9:57motivating reason of why I wanted to
9:58speak with you today other than just
10:00being able to meet you cuz I have so
10:01much respect for you and so this is so
10:03great.
10:04Um
10:04But also just a kind of evangelize in a
10:07way for why I think atheism
10:09is, you know, very much a good doctrine
10:12to believe in. Doctrine's not the right
10:14word at all. But a belief set anyway.
10:16Most atheists would flinch at that and
10:18say it's not a belief.
10:19Okay, that's ridiculous.
10:21It's a non-belief.
10:22Come on, that's ridiculous. I think
10:24that's just semantics, right? I don't
10:25think that's It's a belief to look out
10:28at the world and to say I see a certain
10:30set set of facts
10:32that are out there in nature and then I
10:34make a judgment based on that. Do I
10:36think it, you know, a God creator made
10:38it? Do I think no God creator made it?
10:40And then that's my belief and then I
10:42form all of my beliefs around that. I
10:43always think that is silly.
10:45the advantages of being an atheist?
10:48Look, say I'm not an atheist and you
10:49really want to evangelize me. Yes, sir.
10:52you say to me the benefits, the big
10:54benefits?
10:54Primary advantage Primary advantage is
10:58being able to truly make
11:03reason and logic
11:05the defining factor
11:08of your belief set.
11:09To reject anything that is not founded
11:13in reason. I believe that you can only
11:15do that through atheism or agnosticism
11:19cuz like look, I mean, I don't know for
11:21sure that there is no God. That's an
11:22impossible statement, all right? So we
11:24can just get that out of the way. That
11:25would be impossible. You would have to
11:27have all knowledge completely.
11:29Um so of course I cannot say that. Um
11:32but the evidence doesn't seem to me at
11:33all to suggest that there is a God and
11:36my belief is that there is no God. Now,
11:38I took the time to watch the video on
11:40Oh my gosh.
11:42And I really enjoyed it. It's so well
11:44produced. It's uh interesting.
11:46I get no credit for that. That was
11:48Transit TVLA. Um they did all the
11:50production and so it was tremendous.
11:53Um I just wrote the script. You really
11:55believe all that? Because at the end you
11:57said ask questions. Keep asking
11:59questions. Absolutely.
12:01And the reason I don't believe
12:03evolution, I really believe it's the
12:05opposite of reason and logic,
12:07I believe it's uh
12:09it's foolish. It's unproven. It's
12:11unprovable. It makes no sense and it
12:14can't answer the questions. So it seemed
12:17strange to me that you would end up
12:18saying keep asking questions. So let me
12:20ask you some questions about evolution.
12:22Yes, sir. What was the initial cause?
12:26Of evolution?
12:28All right, so this is where you and I,
12:29right? We're going to reach a stalemate
12:31at some point because you say what is
12:33the initial cause? Well, from what I
12:35understand, from what the teachings say,
12:374.3 billion years ago is when the Earth
12:40proper, I believe, came to be as an
12:43entity and I believe that they say that
12:44life has been in existence continuously
12:47for the last 3.4 billion years if I
12:50remember this all correctly. And so what
12:52was the mover of evolution? Well, if you
12:55think about the Genesis event that
12:57happened 3.4 billion years ago
13:00of life. Genesis in the sense of
13:02beginning in the secular sense. Yeah. Um
13:06you think about what that event was?
13:07Well, you know, I read the accounts that
13:10are, you know, thought up um about how
13:13they speculate it must have happened
13:15being in the oceans, maybe outside of a
13:16thermal vent that there just happened to
13:19be chemicals and compounds that existed
13:22in a certain set and a certain
13:23arrangement, the temperature was just
13:25right, the conditions were just right
13:27and somehow you have a self-replicating
13:30entity that, you know, became life. So
13:32what was in the beginning?
13:33Okay. So again, this is the stalemate
13:36that you and I will ultimately reach is
13:38reason this is a stalemate cuz you don't
13:40know. Assuredly. Assuredly I agree with
13:43you. I do not know. So they say the Big
13:45Bang occurred about 14 billion years ago
13:48and somewhere in that time frame. And
13:51what preceded the Big Bang? Well, I have
13:53absolutely no clue. I will say this, the
13:56first law of thermodynamics, energy
13:57cannot be created nor destroyed. Well,
14:00that suggests that energy cannot be
14:03created nor destroyed, mass cannot be
14:05created nor destroyed. I suppose that
14:07it's saying then that this has just
14:09existed forever.
14:11And Ah, second law of thermodynamics,
14:14you just blew it. Entropy. Entropy never
14:17Is entropy is always increasing. I did
14:19not blow anything. Entropy is always
14:21increasing. So that would seem to
14:23suggest, right, that
14:26the Big Bang will never be recreated. Um
14:29we're just going to continue to spread
14:31out thermodynamically.
14:33be eternal.
14:34That's not true.
14:36be eternal because you go back it would
14:37have turned to dust trillions of years
14:39ago because of the second law of
14:40thermodynamics. It cannot be eternal.
14:44Whatever was eternal that created all
14:46things had to be non-material because
14:49it's not subject to entropy and God fits
14:51that bill.
14:53So Justin, why wouldn't you want the
14:55prime mover to be God?
14:59Well, in terms of my wants or desires, I
15:01mean, Ray, surely I will admit to you
15:04that it does for sure
15:09if I could believe, or that's not the
15:12right way to say it.
15:13Um
15:15It does sound It is just by
15:17construction, by argument, saying that
15:20there is a God who is just, a God that
15:23is perfect in all his ways, if we're
15:25going to describe a gender to the God,
15:27that is upright and perfect in all of
15:29his ways and does no wrong, does no sin
15:34and that we would then know that
15:36regardless of outcome everything is in
15:39accordance with God's will, everything
15:41will be made to the fullness of God's
15:43will. That is a lovely belief. And there
15:46is no doubt that would be preferable to
15:49believing that everything is right and
15:52just in a divine sense as handed down to
15:55us through religious traditions as
15:57opposed to we're all going to approach
15:59thermodynamic equilibrium one day.
16:01And No, but just being serious. I mean,
16:04these are the things that you have to
16:05reconcile with, right?
16:06Is there right and wrong for an atheist?
16:09Okay.
16:11Cuz I expected that question always
16:13comes up, right, whenever you're
16:14debating with an atheist. And so I will
16:16say this, I'm never going to be able to
16:19meet you where you want to be met in
16:22terms of how you define what is
16:24objectively right or wrong. I will
16:26contend I don't think you get any closer
16:29to objective morality than I do
16:31because I think So I know that it is
16:34from what I understand and I mean I
16:35forgive me cuz I'm not entirely sure of
16:38um
16:39your belief on this so I don't want to
16:40speak speak for you on this. But the
16:43idea of God makes a rule.
16:47God says this is what is right, this is
16:50what is just.
16:52Well, then the This is an old
16:54philosophical question, right, that Is
16:56it right because God says it's right or
16:58does God see that it's right and then
17:01it's it's just right in and of itself.
17:03So I guess the second would mean that
17:05there is objective reality, right?
17:06Objective morality in that sense. Or is
17:09it just objective morality because God
17:13hands it down to us? And even in the
17:15second instance, we're still no closer
17:17to being able to have in a rigorous
17:19understanding of why something is
17:22objectively moral.
17:24In terms of speaking about what is right
17:25or wrong, uh not to, you know, fully
17:28endorse Kant's categorical imperative,
17:30but it is something um it is a concept
17:33that seems to inform for me at least in
17:37a large sense about why things are bad
17:40and why we shouldn't do them. So just as
17:42an example, uh I was in a class
17:44yesterday. Uh I go to business school
17:46virtually now cuz I'm in Oklahoma.
17:48Um but I was in a class where we were
17:51talking about corruption
17:53and we were talking about corruption in
17:55terms of uh company It was a case study
17:58um analyzing a handful of different
18:00people and there was an instance where
18:03corruption came up, an opportunity for
18:04bribery.
18:05And so I was thinking to myself, how
18:07would I talk to you about How is that
18:09wrong? Why can I condemn bribery?
18:12And I think for the very simple system
18:14or for the very simple reason
18:16of and it's just related to Kant's
18:17categorical imperative
18:19Kant's categorical imperative is a moral
18:22philosophy that attempts to explain the
18:24existence of morals and their
18:25implications. There are many videos that
18:28try and break down Immanuel Kant's
18:29complex school of thought, but the
18:31simple explanation is that this was a
18:33sin-loving sinner trying to get rid of
18:35guilt. That is his moral accountability
18:38to God.
18:39This is summed up in Romans 8:7.
18:42The mind of the flesh with its sinful
18:44pursuits is actively hostile to God. It
18:47does not submit itself to God's law
18:50since it cannot.
18:52In other words, the point of contention
18:54between man and God are the Ten
18:56Commandments, the moral law that
18:58forbids, among other things, theft,
19:00lying, blasphemy, greed, adultery, lust,
19:02and fornication. Watch now as these
19:04amateur philosophers miss that point.
19:09Immanuel Kant is a philosopher who tried
19:11to work out how human beings could be
19:13good and kind outside of the
19:15exhortations and blandishments of
19:17traditional religions.
19:19I don't know if you've noticed this, but
19:20all of our discussions about ethics so
19:22far have had one thing in common, God.
19:24He starts by asking, what does it mean
19:27to be good?
19:28But many other thinkers have argued that
19:29humanity's moral code doesn't come from
19:31some supernatural force. 18th century
19:33German philosopher Immanuel Kant, for
19:35one, thought that religion and morality
19:37were a terrible pairing and if anything,
19:40the two should be kept apart. Instead,
19:42Kant argued, in order to determine
19:44what's right, you have to use reason.
19:46Kant thought that moral rules come to us
19:49as a result of being rational beings. He
19:53was a pessimist about human character
19:55and believed that we are by nature
19:56intensely prone to corruption.
19:59It was this awareness that led him to
20:00formulate what would be his life's
20:02project, the desire to replace religious
20:05authority with the authority of reason.
20:09The categorical imperative just means
20:10the thing that you have to do all the
20:13time regardless of circumstance. It's an
20:15imperative, an order which applies
20:18categorically.
20:20Here he argued that although historical
20:22religions had all been wrong in the
20:24content of what they believed, they had
20:26latched onto a great need to promote
20:28ethical behavior. Take lying for
20:31instance. Sometimes you might want to
20:33tell a lie. Kant asks you to consider
20:35whether it makes sense to will that
20:38everybody lies whenever they want to.
20:41In a world where everybody lies, the
20:43whole concept of truth and lies would
20:45break down. Nobody would trust each
20:47other. Remember, the moral law has to
20:50come from you, from your will. So if you
20:53will to tell lies, you have in fact
20:55contradicted yourself. So that's Kant's
20:57moral philosophy. If you're ever lost,
20:59just remember that the moral law has to
21:01come from within you, and its chief
21:03commandment is thy will shalt make
21:06sense. The idea of if we all committed
21:09bribes, if there was corruption
21:11that was just happening, you know, all
21:14throughout society,
21:15that would that would result in such a
21:17destruction of value in terms of our
21:21ability to create value as companies, in
21:23terms of as individuals working with one
21:25another.
21:26Um corruption, right? It's antithetical
21:28to laws. And so it would be a breakdown
21:30of the rule of law. How would we be able
21:32to enforce contracts? How would we be
21:34able to enforce property rights?
21:36And that would just lead to a collapse
21:38of society. So here's a question that
21:40another question that
21:42I never find satisfaction from evolution
21:44believers.
21:45How did the eye evolve? Could you
21:47explain to me
21:49the evolution of the eye knowing, and
21:50I'm sure you've seen me say this,
21:52knowing the eye cannot work unless it's
21:54fully formed.
21:56And so the first primate that stumbled
21:58around that made it to us
22:00legs to look for a mate to reproduce,
22:03how did he find a female to reproduce
22:06when the eyes hadn't evolved?
22:09And while you're on that, could you
22:10explain the esophagus
22:12and the epiglottis, how you are dead if
22:15your epiglottis doesn't work, you're
22:17dead if your esophagus doesn't work, if
22:19your heart doesn't work, if your liver,
22:20lungs, kidneys,
22:22blood, blood vessels, all these aren't
22:24fully formed, they don't work. You
22:26cannot survive. Could you explain to me
22:29that first primate stumbling around,
22:30he's totally blind,
22:32how he found a female to reproduce?
22:35Okay.
22:36So um assuredly I'm not going to say
22:39anything that hasn't been said before.
22:40And again, this just speaks to the
22:42limits of our understanding, of our our
22:45lack of granular understanding in terms
22:47of really being able to plot out the
22:50path of evolution from that first entity
22:523 billion years ago to today.
22:55I think it's a bit faulty to say, "Oh, I
22:57see the eye now. It's so complex, and
23:00how did it evolve without everything
23:02else already being there?" Instead of
23:04looking at it backwards, try to think
23:06about it moving from the first entity.
23:09Try to think about it in terms of
23:13Are you saying you don't know? Is that
23:14what you're telling me?
23:16Oh, Ray, come on. I don't I will profess
23:18to not know so many things. If you think
23:21about the continuous the continuous slow
23:25progression of the first reproducing
23:28life form of a membrane that had some
23:30type of nucleic acid, be it RNA, I'm
23:33most assuredly it was RNA, and then
23:35later evolved to be DNA, somehow
23:37protein. Yes, sir.
23:39They are unspeakably
23:42complex things.
23:44Just like
23:45Ray, amen to that. Amen to that. Poof!
23:48There was
23:50the also ribonucleic acid. It just
23:52There it was, and then it just gets like
23:54a fairy tale for grown-up. It's
23:56senseless. It's unreasonable. It's
23:58illogical. Ray, I don't think that's
24:00fair.
24:00believe I cannot swallow that. My mouth
24:03is not big enough to swallow the fairy
24:05tale of evolution. It's ridiculous. Ray,
24:07that's not fair. That is not fair. I
24:09think what you're doing here is just
24:11saying, and at least on my end, Ray, I
24:13can't understand. I can't see in my mind
24:17how is it how is it that the nucleic
24:19acid in its most simple form somehow
24:22able to reproduce? It's never simple.
24:24Amen. Amen. I agree with that, but I
24:26will say like look, I think there is at
24:28least sufficient evidence to say that
24:30okay, these base compounds of the
24:31methane, the nitrogens, the carbon
24:33dioxides, whatever that base slurry of
24:37compounds that existed 3 billion years
24:39ago was sufficient to be able to
24:41generate the molecular structure of RNA
24:43and DNA.
24:44It's not that complex in terms of how
24:46many molecules are in it. In terms of
24:47just one In terms of just one I'm just
24:49talking about one base. Complex.
24:51Impossible to create. We can't create
24:54one base. All our scientists combined
24:57having a meeting What do you mean by
24:58that? I disagree with that. All our
25:00scientists combined and says, "Let's
25:02create one atom from nothing." They
25:06haven't got a clue how to do it. Amen to
25:08that. Cuz again, that's but that's not
25:10what we're arguing over. That's not what
25:12we're arguing over here. Cuz again, I
25:14will concede I can't explain at all how
25:18did anything exist in the first
25:19instance. But I will also argue, and
25:21this isn't my argument, it's just
25:23something that's been said so many times
25:25over, I don't feel like you get any
25:27closer to answering that question
25:29satisfactorily because you say God, the
25:32creator did it, but then the question is
25:34what created God? Justin,
25:36if you and I are subjected to torture,
25:39mental torture for three or four days,
25:40we're incredibly predictable. We'll end
25:42up We'll end up in a corner in a fetal
25:44position trying to find security. We are
25:47incredibly predictable in how we react.
25:50And I find there is nothing as
25:52predictable as what you just did when I
25:55ask an atheist what was in the
25:56beginning,
25:57there had to be a prime mover, they then
25:59predictably go to
26:02who then made God. And they ask it as
26:04rhetoric. They don't want an answer.
26:06God is eternal. He's outside of the
26:08dimension of time. He created time,
26:10subjected you and I to time, but God
26:12himself is an eternity. And that's where
26:14you and I will go when we pass on.
26:17And so the whole who made God, you can't
26:19answer that. Therefore, checkmate
26:21doesn't hold water if I for to mix
26:23metaphors.
26:24I look and I see that there's matter. I
26:27see that there's entities all around me,
26:30and I stop there. I don't have to invoke
26:32anything different. I don't have to
26:34invoke anything beyond the fact that I
26:37am here. I am here now.
26:40Right. You don't have to think.
26:42That's what I'm trying to make you do.
26:43I'm just trying to make you think. Ray,
26:45that's not fair. I have thought very
26:48much. Atheism is a dead end street. It
26:51can't give you anything.
26:53It gives you no rhyme, no reason, no
26:56purpose. You are lost, Justin. You're
26:59waiting for death to come. Let me ask
27:00you another question. You've probably
27:02heard me ask it before.
27:04Are you afraid of dying?
27:06I know you think I am afraid of dying.
27:08You say everybody is afraid of dying. Of
27:10course. And Ray, look, do I want to die?
27:13Of course not. I absolutely do not want
27:16to die. I will say that at different
27:18parts of my
27:19in my life I have been terrified of
27:21death. I remember when I was 8 years
27:23old, I went on a vacation with my mom
27:25and her sisters. We were in Galveston,
27:27Texas, which is a nice lovely beachfront
27:29down in the Gulf of Mexico. And I
27:31remember as 8 years old, and I was
27:34staring out at the water,
27:36and I burst into tears.
27:38I suppose at this time I was an atheist
27:40as an 8-year-old child because I the
27:42fear that I had was I'm going to die one
27:45day. I'm not going to exist, and that
27:48was so terrifying. And I just I was
27:50inconsolable, and I burst into tears at
27:52the thought of nonexistence.
27:55And that same fear,
27:56you know, I remember initially in that
27:59conversion moment and when I was in
28:01college and I first became an atheist,
28:03that that fear was very prevalent of
28:05just thinking, "Man, death is so
28:07terrifying. This thought of
28:09nonexistence."
28:11And after stewing over it for the last
28:1410 years, you know, I'm now about to be
28:1532 in a handful of months,
28:18um I wouldn't say I am afraid of death.
28:21I don't want to die. I'm so grateful for
28:23my life and grateful for everything that
28:25I've been able to experience.
28:27Well, to whom are you grateful?
28:29No.
28:31Ray, I'm grateful in the abstract. Cuz
28:33I'm not grateful to any larger entity,
28:35right?
28:36You raise your hand and say, "I thank
28:37you. I thank you, nobody." Look, let me
28:39ask you this question. Yes, sir.
28:42Do you really believe the scientific
28:44impossibility that nothing created
28:46everything, which is what an atheist
28:48believes?
28:49Ray, that's not true.
28:50Well, tell me where I'm wrong.
28:52No, I'm saying that all that I believe
28:53in any event is what created nothing?
28:57Ray, I have no answer for that. I don't
28:59have any explicit belief on did nothing
29:02create everything? That again seems to
29:05be in violation with the first law of
29:07thermodynamics. And again, laws can Laws
29:09are just designations of men. Man, they
29:11could end up being false. I have I have
29:13no idea.
29:15It's not a violation of the law. It's
29:17stupid. It's crazy to believe that
29:19nothing created everything. I don't I
29:20don't want to call I don't want to call
29:21anything stupid or crazy. I just want to
29:23say, "Does it Is it supported by
29:25evidence or is it not?" Well, it's not.
29:28Certainly, the idea of everything coming
29:30out of nothing, that seems to violate
29:32the first law of thermodynamics. So I'm
29:34not comfortable with that.
29:35There's a misunderstanding here. Okay.
29:37I'm not saying you believe everything
29:39came from nothing.
29:41I'm saying you are saying nothing is the
29:43prime mover. That nothing was the entity
29:47that created everything.
29:49Which is craziness
29:51on steroids. Nothing cannot create
29:54anything because it's nothing. A lot of
29:57atheists believe that nothing was the
29:59prime mover. It's crazy. And that's why
30:01the Bible says the fool has said in his
30:03heart there is no God. Okay, let's
30:05change the dynamic. Let's do what you
30:07predictably or what you think I'm going
30:10to predictably do. I want to move from
30:12your intellect to your conscience. Can
30:14you handle that? Yes, sir. Okay, now
30:17where we're going to go? I believe so.
30:19Are you going to give me the test?
30:21Yeah, yeah. Now, how do you how do you
30:23how do you face up to the commandments?
30:25John, my agenda is not to convert you to
30:27the Bible. I wouldn't try and do that. I
30:30wouldn't try and convert you to the New
30:32Testament or the Old Testament. I'm just
30:33saying,
30:34John, you're in terrible danger if you
30:37die in your sins, God's going to give
30:39you justice, and that horrifies me. I
30:40love you. I care about you. How do you
30:42measure up to the 10 commandments?
30:46Well, I mean, I don't I don't really
30:48measure my life by the 10 commandments.
30:50I mean, you got the first four
30:51commandments that are really just
30:52telling you to, you know, um stroke
30:55God's ego.
30:58It was telling that the moment we
31:00touched on the commandments, John began
31:02having sound problems. How do you
31:04measure up to the 10 commandments?
31:07Well, I mean, I don't I don't really
31:09measure my life by the 10 commandments.
31:11I mean, you It became so bad, I had to
31:13stop him. I think you have a loose
31:15connection. Do you do you got a
31:17microphone there?
31:19Uh yeah, I do.
31:20You want to check the wiring cuz every
31:22time you speak there's a little crackle.
31:25As the world says, we had our demons.
31:27And so, we spent the next 20 minutes
31:29trying to fix the problem.
31:31Hey, can you hear me?
31:33Yep.
31:35Is it is it sounding better or no?
31:38Just the same.
31:40Oh, no.
31:43Yeah, I'm I'm so sorry about that, Ray.
31:46That's all right. You're you're a
31:47genius. You fixed it. When it comes to
31:49the 10 commandments, I know you don't
31:51believe in them, but how do you do when
31:53you compare yourself to them? You've
31:54heard me go through the commandments and
31:56ask people if they're lied and stolen.
31:58Have you lied and stolen?
32:01Um I I mean, I would say that I probably
32:03have done that in the past. Everything's
32:06in the past, even my
32:08question then was in the past. Um have
32:10you used God's name in vain?
32:13Uh definitely. So, as an atheist, why
32:16would you do that? If you don't believe
32:18in God's existence, why would you take
32:20the time to use it as a cuss word?
32:24Well, because that's just part of our
32:26common, you know, vernacular now. I
32:28mean, I have religious relatives that
32:30use, you know, the God's name in vain
32:33all the time.
32:35Ray, I fall so far short of the
32:37commandments on
32:40Ray, I mean, again, you commit Again, I
32:42believe it says in Roman, you break one
32:43of the law, you're guilty of it all.
32:45And assuredly, Ray, I have fallen so far
32:48short. Thou shalt have no other gods
32:50before me. Well, obviously, I've made a
32:53god unto myself, I believe they say when
32:55you're an atheist. And in terms of
32:57thinking of my own rules. Thou shalt not
32:59make any graven images. Well, I like to
33:01think I'm not an idolater, so I hope I
33:03haven't, you know, fallen short.
33:04Let's just back up and go through them
33:06slowly because they're so deep and so
33:08powerful. Yes, sir. That first
33:10commandment where you say you made a god
33:12out of yourself, the essence of the
33:14first commandment is to love God with
33:16heart, mind, soul, and strength, and
33:17love your neighbor as yourself.
33:19Greatest commandment. Yeah, he He gave
33:20He gave you life. He gave you those eyes
33:22that you're seeing with, the brain that
33:23you're thinking with, ears that you
33:25listen to good music, taste buds that
33:26enjoy good food. Gave you the ability to
33:29have sex, to reproduce after your own
33:31kind, and have pleasure in doing so.
33:34And yet,
33:35you haven't loved God with heart, mind,
33:37soul, and strength. Neither did I.
33:40You know, when you look at the third
33:41commandment, have you ever used God's
33:42name in vain? Yes, sir. So, instead of
33:45loving God with heart, mind, soul, and
33:47strength, you have despised him because
33:50of the moral accountability issue.
33:52That's what the Bible says in Romans
33:548:7. Are you familiar with that verse?
33:56It says the carnal mind is at enmity
33:58against God, for it is not subject to
34:01the law of God, neither indeed can be.
34:03In other words,
34:05your mind is in a place of hostility
34:06towards God where you actually deny his
34:09very existence
34:11because he's so contemptible to you
34:13because of his moral requirements.
34:16You don't like him telling you what to
34:18do because you enjoy your pornography.
34:21You enjoy lust. You enjoy fornication.
34:24The issue is not one of intellect, it's
34:27one of morality. That's the issue that's
34:29at hand. And so, we violate that first
34:33commandment, which you say you have. The
34:34second commandment, every atheist does.
34:37Richard Dawkins, who I love and I care
34:41about, is an idolater.
34:43He created a false god, a monster, and
34:47he says, "If that's your god, I don't
34:49believe in him."
34:50The God of the Old Testament is arguably
34:53the most unpleasant character in all
34:55fiction.
34:57Jealous and proud of it, a petty,
34:59unjust, unforgiving, control freak, a
35:01vindictive, bloodthirsty, ethnic
35:03cleanser, a misogynistic, homophobic,
35:05racist, infanticidal, genocidal,
35:08filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal,
35:11sadomasochistic,
35:13capriciously malevolent bully.
35:21The God that Richard Dawkins doesn't
35:23believe in doesn't exist. He's a figment
35:26of his imagination that he shaped and
35:28conformed to himself for his own agenda,
35:30for his atheism. And so, we're all
35:32idolaters by nature, and it's only when
35:34we understand that God sees every atom
35:37that makes up our eye, cuz he made it.
35:39He sees it from the inside out. He's
35:42intimately familiar with you as a person
35:45because he made you.
35:46And so, when we begin to understand what
35:48God is actually like, that he sees all
35:50of thing, sees our thought life, that's
35:52when we begin to get a right concept of
35:54him and begin to get the beginning of
35:56wisdom. Remember what the beginning of
35:58wisdom is? Fear of the Lord. Fear of the
36:00Lord. And that's what you lack.
36:02And that's why you've got the philosophy
36:03you have because you don't fear God.
36:06Why would you use God's name as a cuss
36:08word?
36:10It's an expression. Yeah, but what?
36:12It's just a figure of speech. Why? An
36:15interjection.
36:16Why?
36:18Why Okay, I don't want to get overly
36:20into semantics here, right? But when you
36:22talk, you know, we learn to speak
36:24certain ways, and we have certain
36:25expressions, and we just learn, ah, I'm
36:27exasperated, and this is a thing to say.
36:30And
36:31would you Why wouldn't you just use
36:33human excrement to express it? Why
36:35substitute God's name in that place? Why
36:38do that?
36:39Look, I've used profanity,
36:41you know? But why don't you stay with
36:43profanity? That makes sense. So, if you
36:45want to express disgust, ah, you'd say
36:47that filth word for that filth word, and
36:49that makes sense. You'd use it in that
36:51context. But why would you take the name
36:53of the creator, the name of Jesus, and
36:55use it in that respect? It makes no
36:57sense until you understand
36:59that the Bible says we hate God without
37:01cause. We despise him, and Jesus said,
37:03"The world hates me because I testify
37:05that its deeds are evil." We hate God
37:08for the same reason a thief hates a
37:10policeman.
37:12I will say this. Yeah. If someone were
37:14to be professing as a Christian, it
37:16absolutely does make no sense to
37:18blaspheme God. There is no doubt. Why do
37:21I use it? As a figure of speech, as an
37:23expression. It's a figure of speech. It
37:25just rolls off your tongue
37:27without any respect, without any honor.
37:29And that's the essence of what it means
37:31to take God's name in vain, give it no
37:34respect whatsoever. Would you use your
37:36mother's name as a cuss word, Justin? I
37:38love my sweet mother dearly. And you'd
37:40never do that.
37:42No, sir. Because that would dishonor
37:44your mother. would dishonor her. And
37:46you've taken the name of the God that
37:48gave you life, that gave you your
37:49mother, gave you a beloved brother, and
37:52you've used it as a filth word to
37:54express disgust, which is evidence the
37:56Bible is true when it says your carnal
37:58mind is at enmity against God. It's in a
38:00state of hostility.
38:02You shall not commit adultery. I
38:03remember the night I read that way back
38:05in 1972, I thought, well, if there's a
38:07heaven, there's a god, I'll be sweet cuz
38:09I've never committed adultery. But then
38:11I read the words of Jesus. When I say to
38:13you, "Whoever looks on a woman to lust
38:15for her has committed adultery already
38:18with her in his heart."
38:19How do you deal with that one, Justin?
38:21Yes, Ray.
38:23Nails you to the wall, doesn't it? I
38:25believe as you said in another video, do
38:27I have red blood flowing through my
38:28veins?
38:29Now, Jesus said, "If you look at a woman
38:31and lust for her, you commit adultery
38:33with her in your heart." Have you ever
38:34looked at a woman with lust?
38:37Uh okay. Well, I mean, yeah. I I
38:40obviously have. You got red blood in
38:42your veins. Have you had sex before
38:44marriage?
38:45Uh yes. So, here's a quick summation of
38:48your court case on judgment day, John.
38:51I'm not judging you, but you've told me
38:52you're a lying, thieving, blasphemous,
38:54fornicating adulterer at heart. You got
38:56to face God on judgment day, whether you
38:58believe in him or not. And here's the
38:59big if.
39:01If God judges you by those commandments
39:04on judgment day, will you be innocent or
39:05guilty?
39:08Well, I mean, I really don't think I I
39:11don't subscribe to that particular
39:14belief. Um if I were to get up there,
39:16and the Yahweh God was the actual God
39:19that existed,
39:20uh then he probably wouldn't look
39:23favorably on me. But then again,
39:25uh I I really don't think that that
39:27particular God exists. Have you looked
39:29at pornography?
39:31Yes.
39:32So, there's a burning unlawful sexual
39:34desire. Are you familiar with
39:36the parable of the prodigal son? Yes,
39:39sir.
39:39Remember what he did? The prodigal son,
39:42the son takes his inheritance and he
39:43wastes it all. Yeah, but he was
39:45it all on a carnal lifestyle, living
39:48only for his own desires, and then when
39:49he's
39:50broke and in poverty, he goes back home
39:53and says, "Father, please take me in."
39:55And his dad happily receives him.
39:58Happily receives him, kills the fatted
40:00calf, has a celebration that his son has
40:02returned. Who was that a picture of? I
40:04believe it is of God. No, it's of you.
40:07You're the prodigal
40:08Oh, I mean, yes, God the Father and then
40:09me being the prodigal son. Yeah. Now,
40:11why did he go to a far country? Why do
40:13you think?
40:16I don't know.
40:17I do.
40:19He wanted to spend his money on
40:20prostitutes, and he didn't want to do it
40:22under his father's nose because he knew
40:23his father would frown on such a thing.
40:26And so, he went to a far country.
40:28Justin, atheism
40:30is a far country.
40:32You want to get a as far away from God
40:34as you can because of your unlawful
40:36sexual desire. Am I right or wrong?
40:39Ray, I disagree. It's incorrect. That's
40:40not the root of my atheism. Is it the
40:43branch?
40:45I mean, Ray, it's not
40:47I almost feel like I mean, they're just
40:49in not connected. You know why Richard
40:51Dawkins is such a pied piper for uh this
40:54generation?
40:55It's because he parades a lifestyle
40:58that's free from guilt when it comes to
41:00sexual sin. You can fornicate, you can
41:03lie, you can steal, you can look at
41:06pornography, you can do what you want,
41:07commit adultery, and there's no qualm of
41:10conscience because there's no right or
41:12wrong. And that's delirious pleasure for
41:14sin-loving sinners.
41:16In fairness to Richard Dawkins, who I do
41:18want to say he treats you very unfairly.
41:21And I you know, the disrespect that he
41:23shows you, I just cannot stand. But in
41:26fairness, I don't know if it's accurate
41:27to say that he says lying is not bad,
41:30committing adultery against another is
41:32not bad.
41:47And that's definitely nothing that I
41:48subscribe to or endorse, but Yeah, but
41:50you're looking at pornography without
41:51qualms of conscience, isn't that right?
41:54Ray, pornography is not something that I
41:57am proud of and I do not think it is a
41:59positive thing on society. I will put
42:01that out there. Is it wrong?
42:04Again, is it wrong in a moral sense in
42:07terms of a divine command from God? I
42:09certainly don't think so cuz I don't
42:11believe that God exists. Okay. Do you
42:13know the saying ignorance of the law is
42:15no excuse? Absolutely. And that's where
42:17you fit in.
42:19You might say, "Well, I'm not subject to
42:21that law, but you still are." You can go
42:22through a town at 100 miles an hour and
42:24say to the judge, "Judge, I didn't
42:25realize it was a 50 mile an hour limit."
42:27He's going to say, "Ignorance of the law
42:28is no excuse. You're going to jail." And
42:30you're subject to God's wrath despite
42:34your professed ignorance because the
42:35Bible says it's a willful ignorance of
42:38the truth. God gave you your conscience.
42:41It's a society-shaped but God-given.
42:43Conscience is an inner light that God's
42:45given every man. And that's what I was
42:47subject to before I was a Christian. I
42:49had this knowing conscience that I could
42:51either listen to or not listen to. And
42:54when you take the the conscience out of
42:56the equation and you don't feel guilty
42:57anymore, you're like a man who took the
42:59batteries out of a smoke detector. It's
43:01there to alarm him, to protect him. And
43:04that conscience, if it's doing its duty
43:06right now, would be saying, "Man, you're
43:07in big trouble with God. You know God
43:09exists." You know in your heart it's
43:11wrong to look at pornography. It's not
43:13just uh something that's uh not
43:15acceptable and shouldn't be done. It's
43:17morally wrong and you stir up God's
43:19wrath. And Justin,
43:20I've only known you for what? 30, 40, 50
43:23minutes, but I love you. I care about
43:26you and the thought of you dying in your
43:28sins and God giving you justice is
43:30horrifying to me. I wish I had tears in
43:32my voice cuz there's not tears in my
43:34eyes. I'm hard-hearted. But I care about
43:37you and I so want you to soften your
43:38heart and just say, "Okay,
43:40this all makes sense. I'm going to die
43:42after this. I'm going to face God in
43:43judgment. If that's true, I'm in big
43:45trouble. I don't want to end up in
43:46hell."
43:47Justin, if you die in your sins, you've
43:48got God's promise he will damn you.
43:50You'll end up in hell and that takes my
43:52breath away. I know it doesn't concern
43:54you,
43:55but it deeply concerns me. My motive for
43:57talking to you is one of love and
43:59concern. It's not I'm not wanting to get
44:01a notch on my belt or convert an
44:03atheist. Man, I want you to come to
44:05Christ properly. I want you to have your
44:08sins forgiven and death taken off you.
44:10And so, you know I know you're going to
44:11be in heaven and not end up in hell.
44:14Well, I'm just I'm I'm wondering why
44:15you're so concerned about uh other other
44:19people like going to hell.
44:22Well, how can I not be?
44:25I mean, I'm I've got God's love in my
44:27heart. I care about everybody. If I see
44:28someone in danger, I'm going to tell
44:30him. If I see a child drowning, I'm
44:32going to save him. If I see someone
44:34asleep in a building that's got flames
44:36leaping up from the basement, I'm going
44:37to run in and awaken that person and
44:39say, "Get out. Get out." Because I care
44:41about people. And that's what a
44:43Christian does. We care about people. We
44:45care about their salvation and where
44:46they'll spend eternity. Cuz man, if my
44:48eyes meet your eyes on the day of
44:50judgment and you're still in your sins,
44:52you're going to say to me, "Why didn't
44:53you slap my face?" Man, I'd do that if I
44:56was with you physically, but that would
44:58that would offend you. All I can do is
44:59slap you with words and say, "Wake up.
45:02You could be going to die tonight. Your
45:04brother loves you. Your mother loves
45:05you. Your friends love you. They don't
45:07want you to die in your sins. I don't
45:08want you to die in your sins." Tell me,
45:11what did God do for guilty sinners so we
45:13wouldn't have to go to hell? Do you
45:14know?
45:15According to the Christian tradition,
45:17but first I want to say I respect your
45:19genuineness so much and I believe you
45:21and I know that you mean that everything
45:22that you just said. I hope you're not
45:24patronizing me. I hope you're not.
45:26Mr. Man, Ray, please. I am not at all. I
45:29am not at all. I mean this in all
45:30sincerity and I appreciate that about
45:32you. How would you feel if you look at a
45:34kid, he's he's like 10 years old, he's
45:37holding a stick of dynamite, the fuse is
45:39lit, it's getting closer and closer and
45:41closer, and you say to him, "Please,
45:43throw that away. It's going to blow your
45:44head off." And he says,
45:46"I respect your sincerity."
45:49Oh my gosh.
45:50Yes, obviously I disagree that I don't
45:52think that I am facing this, you know,
45:55terrible moral
45:55Well, death is your evidence that God is
45:57serious about sin. He's so serious, he's
45:59given you the death sentence. You're
46:01subject to capital punishment. You're in
46:03a holding cell. Big blue roof, nice
46:06lighting, good air conditioning, but
46:07this life is a holding cell and it's
46:09evidence that God is serious about sin.
46:12He's going to pay you your wages someday
46:14and I'm saying quit before payday. Quit
46:16before judgment day.
46:18Now, Christ died on the cross for our
46:19sins. You've watched our videos and I'm
46:22going to sound like a tape recorder,
46:24but we broke God's law, Jesus paid the
46:27fine. He's made provision for your case
46:30to be dismissed, all that sin to be
46:32washed away, and for God to legally
46:34grant you everlasting life as a free
46:36gift because Jesus suffered and died on
46:38the cross. I've heard all of this before
46:41for like 25 years.
46:43Right.
46:45So, I'm I guess I just don't understand
46:47why you think that just giving me a
46:49quick Bible lesson would make me repent,
46:52you know, of my sins, which I the things
46:55that you listed as far as the criteria
46:57for getting into heaven, I don't
46:59consider all of those things to be
47:01really bad. Like the lying is very
47:04nuanced as to whether or not that's good
47:07or bad. Uh and and adultery, uh you
47:11know, I don't think that that's
47:12necessarily
47:14like an immoral thing that I think that
47:16those are very finite things. Well, I
47:19think you make a very good point, but
47:21let me answer it by just sharing
47:22something with you.
47:24A judge has got a criminal in front of
47:25him that's committed three murders. He's
47:28murdered women, three of them. And he
47:30says, "Judge, I'm guilty. But I want to
47:32tell you they were prostitutes. They
47:33were the scum of the earth. I did
47:35society a favor in killing them." The
47:37judge is going to say,
47:39"Well, you may not be concerned with
47:40your crime, but I'm taking it very
47:42seriously. I'm going to show you how
47:43seriously I take the murder of three
47:45young ladies. I'm sending some you to
47:47the electric chair. That's how serious I
47:50see it."
47:51And you and I trivialize sin. We say,
47:53"Oh, who doesn't tell lies? Who doesn't
47:54lust and fornicate, blaspheme? Who
47:56doesn't commit adultery? Everyone does
47:57it." But God says it's so serious, I'm
48:00giving you the death sentence. I'm
48:01giving you capital punishment and I'm
48:03going to damn you. You're going to lose
48:05that very precious life that I've given
48:07you because you're ungrateful and
48:09thankful and you're rebellious. And you
48:10did things you knew morally were wrong
48:12when I gave you a conscience. So, what
48:14I'm saying, if you listen to your heart
48:16of hearts, makes sense. God's made us
48:19moral creatures. We're not like the
48:20beasts. We know right from wrong.
48:23Well, I mean, I was I was going to say
48:25humans are not the only ones with moral
48:27foundations that exist. Right. My dog
48:30knows when he does wrong. I hear what
48:31you're saying.
48:33Um but, you know, you said
48:35um I think but do I think you're going
48:36to repent just because I've shared this
48:39with you? Um no, but I'd like to say
48:42this. When I plant a seed in the garden,
48:44if I've got confidence in the seed as a
48:46good quality seed, it's going to bring
48:48forth fruit. And my confidence is I've
48:50planted the seed of the gospel in your
48:52heart, but I've preceded it with a moral
48:55law to show you you're a sinner worthy
48:57of hell, but God wants you to go to
48:59heaven. He wants to forgive you and he's
49:01made provision through the death and
49:02resurrection of the savior. We broke
49:04God's law, Jesus paid the fine. And so,
49:06my confidence isn't in my ability to
49:08convert you by some with some clever
49:10means. It's in the power of the gospel
49:12cuz I know you're going to lay your head
49:14on your pillow tonight and maybe you're
49:15going to think about how precious your
49:17life is and you're going to think about
49:18our conversation.
49:20And you're going to say, "Why was Ray so
49:21earnest?" It's because he cares about
49:23me. And you're going to think about
49:24this. And that's all I ask, you're
49:25open-minded and realize that
49:28what's happened to you is unfortunate.
49:30You've been inoculated against the
49:32genuine gospel by the uh modern methods
49:35of evangelism where often they'll play
49:37music and appeal to the emotions with
49:40every head bowed and eye closed raise
49:42your hand. I hate that. I really hate
49:44that and even that even the what would
49:46Jesus do? I I'm not a big fan of that. I
49:49mean you can make up anything you want.
49:51What would Jesus do? I think he'd do
49:52this.
49:53Best to say what did Jesus do and then
49:55you've got the confines and safety of
49:57scripture to see what Jesus did to know
49:59that you're doing something that's
50:01absolutely right if you're doing what
50:02Jesus did. And I'm I'm doing what Jesus
50:05did by appealing to you and saying I
50:06love you. I care about you, John. And I
50:09want you to think about what we talked
50:10about. Would you do that at least? Man,
50:12if you gave your life for me, if you
50:14stepped in front of a bullet, I'd be I'd
50:17be heartbroken.
50:19I'd be I'd be horrified.
50:22And I'd be filled with an
50:24unquenchable gratitude to you for giving
50:27your life for me. And that's what Jesus
50:29did on the cross and you're spitting on
50:31it. You're despising it. You're like a
50:33dog that's returned to its vomit and
50:34like a pig that's gone back to wallowing
50:36in the in the mire. And I want you to
50:39this time do it properly. Truly repent.
50:41Trust in Christ and you've got God's
50:43promise you'll pass from death to life.
50:46Man, I'm pleading with you. Don't throw
50:48this off. Belief is such an important
50:51thing. If I If I told you you you're
50:53walking on a path that's heading for a
50:54landmine and you believed, you'd go
50:57around it. If you didn't believe, you'd
50:58walk straight onto it. So, belief will
51:00govern your path and it will govern your
51:02destiny. And I'm saying believe what I'm
51:04saying. Check it out in scripture. Don't
51:06just believe me, but check it out in
51:08scripture. See if what I'm saying is
51:09true. You're accountable to God. Every
51:11time you sin, you're storing up his
51:13wrath.
51:14And that day's going to come when it's
51:15revealed, but it need not be. It can be
51:18washed away in a split second because of
51:20the mercy and the grace of God if you
51:22repent, trust Christ.
51:24Well, what more could I say? Evolution's
51:26a non-issue, Justin. It's a non-issue.
51:29It's like
51:30the kid holding on to that stick of
51:31dynamite and saying
51:33I wonder where this dynamite was made.
51:35Was it made in China or was it made in
51:37Russia?
51:39It makes no sense. Run away.
51:42Yeah, that is that is funny. That is
51:44funny. And Ray, believe again.
51:46I know. I know. And Ray, look, I do mean
51:48it. I I I mean no disrespect. I'm very
51:51sorry if if that if that came across
51:53I I can handle it. I can handle it.
51:55but Ray, it's not that is not at all
51:58I don't know if it is hard to really
51:59communicate how much I respect and
52:02appreciate what you do. And I just the
52:04fact that you have the true conviction
52:05to talk to people and to genuinely try
52:07to advocate on their behalf to find
52:09repentance means a great deal to me. And
52:12I appreciate that. It's consistent with
52:14your belief set. And that was all I was
52:16trying to express. And I do appreciate
52:18fine. I can handle that. So, you could
52:20you could
52:21What you could do, Justin
52:23is put
52:25works with your respect by just saying
52:28I'm going to think about your
52:29conversation today. I'm going to give
52:30Ray,
52:32in seriousness, I'm going to think about
52:34this for the rest of my life. The fact
52:36that I was able to speak with you.
52:38Well
52:38Before we go, do we have a few minutes
52:40to to talk about something? Yeah, sure.
52:42I just want to say when you said you'll
52:44think about it for the rest of your
52:45life, how long will that be?
52:47Oh, I hope for many, many years. What
52:50sets
52:51Love to be I would I would love to make
52:52it to at least 100 being healthy and
52:54well.
52:55What sets tonight at midnight God says
52:57you fall tonight. Your soul is required
52:59of you. Then you'd be thinking seriously
53:01about it and that's what I want you to
53:02do because life is so transient. It's
53:04like a vapor. It appears for a moment
53:06and we think death
53:08is something that happens to other
53:09people, but it happens to all of us.
53:11150,000 people
53:13die every day. So, I trust today this
53:15coronavirus is making you realize your
53:17own mortality. You could walk out of
53:19your door and go
53:22I'm having trouble breathing and they
53:23test you and find you positive. Find
53:25yourself in a hospital that's full of
53:26germs and full of other people with a
53:28contagious disease and you're dead
53:30within 2 days. Gasping for breath. And
53:33it's a reality we must face. Death is
53:35going to take us. So, please when you
53:37think about it, don't think about it
53:39with I'm going to live to 100. Think
53:40about it as if you're going to die
53:41tonight. And that would that would honor
53:44me as a person. That would honor my
53:45words and it would give me great joy to
53:48know you're going to be you're going to
53:49be doing that.
53:51Yes, sir. I will definitely I will
53:53definitely think about the importance of
53:56every day
53:57in my life and take renewed commitment
53:58to that. Okay, thank you. I mean I've
54:01I've spent the last 10 or more years
54:03thinking about these exact things. So, I
54:06mean I'm still going to continue to
54:08think about them, but it's not going to
54:10be in in the Bible's favor.
54:13Yeah, well, that's fine. We all feel
54:14like that. We're all rebels by nature.
54:16We're We're in a place of enmity towards
54:18God shaking our fists.
54:20Bible actually says we're hostile to God
54:23in our carnal minds and evidence of that
54:25is the fact that we use his name as a
54:27cuss word. So, it's nothing new to hear
54:29you say that. We're all rebels, all like
54:31Adam running from God, hiding from God,
54:34and uh
54:35and God chases us until he finds us or
54:38until we come to him. And then we say,
54:41"Man, I must have been crazy. God was
54:42offering me everlasting life and I was
54:44choosing death and hell." But anyway,
54:46you're you're very kind to listen to me.
54:48I think you're a a great sport. And uh
54:51you've been very honoring and and
54:52letting me speak and for that I'm very
54:54grateful.
54:56Oh, I'm very grateful you've uh you've
54:58spent, you know, some of your time uh
55:00with me talking to me about stuff. Okay,
55:02well, thanks, John. God bless you.
55:05All right. Thank you. Bye, Ray.
55:07There is one thing that I would like to
55:09ask you about in terms of
55:12your own knowledge
55:14and your own knowledge of your faith.
55:17Mhm. Because it is a question. It is
55:19something that
55:22I've I've had this argument or I've had
55:24this discussion with people for the last
55:25handful of years. And this is going to
55:28sound a little silly the way that I'm
55:30going to present this, but it's the only
55:32way that I can formulate this idea.
55:35Okay.
55:35And okay.
55:39So, you know, sometimes the question has
55:40been asked when I have these discussions
55:42with people and they say, "What would it
55:44take for you to believe in God?"
55:46"What would it take for you to believe
55:48in God?" They ask they ask me that and I
55:49try to think about it. And I realize
55:51something
55:52that I don't think it is possible. There
55:55is literally no state of the world where
55:57I could ever believe in God.
55:59And I and I'm I'm saying that to you now
56:02to say I don't believe that there is any
56:05set of facts, that there is any set of
56:07experiences that one could have that
56:10would justify a belief, an unfailing
56:13belief in God. And the reason why I say
56:16this is because of the idea of imagine
56:19the existence of superpowered aliens.
56:22And I know that this sounds silly and
56:23ridiculous, but I mean this in in
56:24seriousness. Every great technological
56:27advancement, if you were to take back
56:29hundreds of years ago, would appear as
56:31magic. Could appear as divinity to those
56:33who are uninformed and unaware of what
56:36it was that was actually causing
56:38And so, in my mind, I've even tried to
56:41think, "Okay.
56:43Let's say that I have a voice that comes
56:44to my head and it's a voice that says I
56:47am God, Christianity is true, the Holy
56:49Bible is true. Believe that." Okay,
56:51would I know? Would I know that that is
56:54God? Well, I'm not necessarily. I know
56:56that people hear voices and I know that
56:59um you know, schizophrenia happens and
57:00people hear voices, but moreover, it's
57:03not impossible to envision what is a
57:05thought but molecules inside of your
57:07head? It's molecules inside of your
57:09brain and the and the arrangement of,
57:12you know, electro electric potentials
57:14firing off neurons and so you have
57:16thoughts in your head. Maybe another
57:18entity could figure out how to control
57:20it in such a way that I hear thoughts
57:22and I hear voices in my head.
57:24Okay, so that wouldn't be satisfying.
57:26Well, then let's just imagine, okay,
57:28poof, something appeared out of nothing
57:30in front of me. Well, that would seem
57:32powerful for sure, but again there are a
57:35lots of tricks that you can do to
57:36explain, "Oh, it didn't come out of
57:38nothing. You don't really know that it
57:39came out of nothing." How how would I
57:42know then that these things that have
57:43just appeared were truly divine? And
57:46then to push it to the illogical extreme
57:49let us say I read the Bible and I've
57:51read it and I accept all of its
57:52teachings and I believe that I'm going
57:54to get a glorified resurrected body. I'm
57:56going to be in the presence of God for
57:58all eternity. And so I live to the end
58:00of my life and I'm on my deathbed and I
58:02know I am about to die and then I do
58:04die. And then I awaken. I awaken and I
58:09am in my glorified resurrected body and
58:11I'm in the presence of what I perceive
58:13to be God, of what I perceive to be
58:15Jesus Christ.
58:17Even then
58:18even then, I would not know for certain.
58:22I would not know for sure that this is
58:24truly God and that this is not some
58:27superpowered alien that has extended my
58:30life beyond what I believe
58:32and that there is just no way. And that
58:34even if I were to wake up in hell
58:36tomorrow, even if I were to wake up in
58:38hell tomorrow, I still would not know.
58:41It is impossible for me to know for sure
58:44that the Bible was true, that this is
58:46truly God in the divine sense who is an
58:48entity that exists outside of what we
58:51can perceive in in terms of the physical
58:53realities around us and that I am now in
58:55hell forever. How do I know that I'm
58:57just not being tortured by this same
58:59superpowered alien?
59:03Are you sure of all that you've just
59:04said?
59:06I'm sure of the argument that I have
59:08just made.
59:08be.
59:09What do you mean? It's self-refuting.
59:11Could be just molecules all tricking you
59:13and making you think you're sure of that
59:15argument. No, but that's that's what I'm
59:16saying. That's what I'm saying. I cannot
59:20under that state of facts I just said,
59:22there is no way that I could ever know
59:24that God is true because of this. I
59:26agree with you. Now, let's take them
59:28point by point. My thoughts of you hear
59:29voices. Don't go by those. The mental
59:32homes are filled with people uh who hear
59:34voices. A lot of them think they're
59:36Jesus. A lot of them think they're God.
59:37So, if you hear a voice, see some
59:39psychiatrist who's also
59:41a little insane himself because he can't
59:43define what is mentally stable. So,
59:46psychiatry can't even tell you what
59:47sanity is. So, if you're hearing voices,
59:50seek help. Secondly, if you see a
59:52vision,
59:53seek help also because that's crazy. A
59:56lot of people see visions. Can be
59:58brought on by drugs. They can be brought
1:00:00on by imaginations.
1:00:01And if I was able to convince you to
1:00:03become a Christian by showing you a
1:00:04vision and you said, "Oh, I saw Jesus.
1:00:07He shimmered and he was all in white."
1:00:08And then you become a Christian and 3
1:00:10months later you find that I did it
1:00:12using lights and mirrors, then your
1:00:13faith falls because it's founded upon a
1:00:15vision rather than upon what it should
1:00:18be founded upon.
1:00:19Thirdly, I'm not trying to convince you
1:00:21of the Bible.
1:00:23Boy, that's just too much for anyone to
1:00:24swallow. It's full of crazy sounding
1:00:26stories of Jonah and the whale, Noah and
1:00:28the ark, and all these talking donkeys
1:00:31and stuff like that. No, that's just too
1:00:33much for you to swallow.
1:00:35All I want you to do is believe the
1:00:36gospel. And here here's the crunch. The
1:00:39Pharisees came up with Jesus and said,
1:00:41"Show us a sign." And he said something
1:00:43very strange. He said there shall no
1:00:45sign be given but of Jonah the prophet
1:00:47who was swallowed by the big fish. And
1:00:49so shall the son of man be in the heart
1:00:50of the earth. He's saying, "You want a
1:00:52miracle?
1:00:53It's the gospel. The miracle is this,
1:00:55Justin. God will take your sin-loving
1:00:59heart
1:01:00and transform you overnight. So, instead
1:01:03of loving evil and wrong, you'll love
1:01:05righteousness.
1:01:07That's what's taken my breath away for
1:01:09the last 48 years. That God took me who
1:01:12was filled with unclean sexual desires
1:01:14like every other red-blooded male
1:01:16and made me love righteousness. I had no
1:01:20concern for righteousness before I was a
1:01:21Christian. Righteousness, as much desire
1:01:24for righteousness as a 4-year-old boy
1:01:26has for the word bath.
1:01:28Righteousness, couldn't even define it.
1:01:30And yet God transformed me. And so, for
1:01:32the last 48 years, I have passionately,
1:01:36with every ounce of energy I've got,
1:01:38wanted to please God, to love God, to
1:01:40serve God. And I didn't do that. He made
1:01:43me a new creature. And this is what the
1:01:44Bible says.
1:01:45It says this, "I will take my law and
1:01:49write it upon your heart and cause you
1:01:51to walk in my statutes." It's called the
1:01:54new covenant. It's through the power of
1:01:56the gospel where God will transform you
1:01:57overnight, open the eyes of your
1:01:59understanding, take you out of darkness
1:02:01into light, and take you out of death
1:02:04into life. That's the promise of the
1:02:06gospel. So, don't go for voices. Don't
1:02:09go for visions. Don't try and swallow
1:02:11the whole Bible. Just believe the
1:02:13simplicity of the gospel, repent, and
1:02:15trust Christ. And that will be your
1:02:17experience. You'll pass from death to
1:02:19life. You've got my word on it. And
1:02:21you've got God's word on it. And he
1:02:22cannot lie.
1:02:24Ray, I do
1:02:25I appreciate that that answer.
1:02:28Um but my
1:02:30That's
1:02:30but destroys everything, Justin. This is
1:02:33what but does. This
1:02:35I believe what you're saying. God's
1:02:36offering you everlasting life. I'm
1:02:37heading for hell. I understand all that,
1:02:40but the balloon has just been burst by
1:02:42the pin but.
1:02:44You know, God gives the whole thing
1:02:45around and says this, "The wages of sin
1:02:47is death.
1:02:49But the gift of God is eternal life
1:02:51through Jesus Christ our Lord." So, no
1:02:53but, Justin. What I don't understand,
1:02:55I'm sorry. Even I mean, look, as as
1:02:58forcefully and as well articulated as
1:03:00that answer was, I still don't
1:03:02understand how that solves the problem
1:03:04of the superpowered alien. Well, this is
1:03:06you're doing the hippie thing when we
1:03:08experimented with LSD and playing with
1:03:10realities.
1:03:12You know, how if you slam your finger in
1:03:13the door, how do you know you're really
1:03:14feeling pain?
1:03:16Well, if you poke your eye out, how do
1:03:17you know really it's really hurting?
1:03:19Come on. There's There's You'll never
1:03:21know reality until you know God. You'll
1:03:23always be playing the semantics game and
1:03:25saying I don't know what reality is.
1:03:27He is reality. When Jesus said, "I am
1:03:29the truth," he meant he is reality. And
1:03:33he said, "And you'll know the truth and
1:03:34the truth will make you free." And until
1:03:36that time, you're going to be bound with
1:03:38the philosophies of man, vain
1:03:40philosophies of man.
1:03:41You said my heart was transformed. And
1:03:43again, how do you know that wasn't just
1:03:45a superpowered alien making you not want
1:03:47to lust, changing your desires?
1:03:49You've nailed it. It's a superpowered
1:03:52alien and his name is God. That solves
1:03:54your problem.
1:03:56All right. Ray,
1:03:58this is this has been so wonderful.
1:04:00Thank you so much for taking the time to
1:04:01speak with me.
1:04:02That's great from an atheist.
1:04:05An ex-atheist. God bless you.
1:04:07No. Yes.
1:04:09It is It is the the the most defining
1:04:12characteristic of who I am. Atheist till
1:04:14the day I die.
1:04:15Without it, you think you've got no
1:04:17identity, but you have. Hey, God bless
1:04:19you, brother. Nice to meet you. Amen,
1:04:20Ray. Thank you so much, sir. Thank you.
1:04:22Bye-bye.
1:04:24I wanted John to know that my love for
1:04:26him was more than just empty words. So,
1:04:29I sent him a small gift.

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