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Alex Hormozi’s Warning: Stop Chasing AI, Build This Instead! — Transcript

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0:00I do a $ 106 million launch. My mom got
0:02to see it, which is really cool. She
0:03dies four weeks later.
0:06It was just like, how am I supposed to
0:07show up right now? So, I write these
0:09tweets as notes [music] to self.
0:11>> I'd never heard you talk like that
0:13publicly before.
0:14>> Yeah. I'm like, what do I need to hear
0:16right now? And I was like, I I'll write
0:17that, which is like I just have to keep
0:19fighting. And [music] people will judge
0:20how much you love someone by how much
0:22you choose to suffer. I don't think the
0:23person that you lost probably wants you
0:25to suffer. One of the lessons that I've
0:26learned from an entrepreneurship
0:28perspective translated into life is we
0:30[music] will get these moments of
0:31dissatisfaction or discomfort and be
0:33like I'm life sucks. I need to change
0:35something. But my emotional discomfort
0:37is not an adequate reason to change what
0:38I'm doing. And so there's all these
0:40other skills that are still required to
0:41be successful in business. But if I can
0:43compress 14 years of business advice,
0:45the first thing I would say is you have
0:46to decide whether you care more about
0:47your future than what other people think
0:48about your future. Like someone's
0:50version of you has to die because
0:52everything in the very beginning of
0:53entrepreneurship comes down to one thing
0:54which is fear. And it makes sense to be
0:55afraid and it's because we want
0:57certainty, but the only way to know is
0:59to start. The second thing I've learned
1:00is that the fastest way to build a $10
1:02million business is not the fastest way
1:03to build a $und00 million business
1:04because focus and [music] patience are
1:07the two enduring competitive advantages
1:09because they're so antihuman. And so
1:11this is where entrepreneurs will
1:12skyrocket. And I'll unpack that concept.
1:14So how are you thinking about your
1:16business, the world of AI?
1:17>> I'm a big AI advocate, but people are
1:19using AI in the wrong places. like
1:21outsourcing thinking and decision-m to
1:23AI is a really bad decision because you
1:25will just get dumber. This is the best
1:26asset I've got for now. So, I want to
1:28keep it as sharp as I can. Finally, this
1:30is like the the absolute raw truth I
1:31could possibly give, which is the single
1:33best financial decision that I ever
1:34made. And that [snorts] is
1:38this is super interesting to me. My team
1:40given me this report to show me how many
1:41of you that watch this show subscribe.
1:43And some of you have told us according
1:44to this that you are unsubscribed from
1:46the channel randomly. So, favor to ask
1:48all of you, please could you check right
1:50now if you've hit the subscribe button,
1:51if you are a regular viewer of the show
1:53and you like what we do here. We're
1:54approaching quite a significant landmark
1:56on this show in terms of a subscriber
1:57number. So, if there was one simple free
2:00thing that you could do to help us, my
2:02team, everyone here to keep this show
2:04free, to keep it improving year over
2:06year and week over week, it is just to
2:08hit that subscribe button and to double
2:09check if you've hit it. Only thing I'll
2:10ever ask of you, do we have a deal? If
2:12you do it, I'll tell you what I'll do.
2:14I'll make sure every single week, every
2:16single month, we fight harder and harder
2:18and harder and harder to bring you the
2:19guests and conversations that you want
2:20to hear. I've stayed true to that
2:22promise since the very beginning of the
2:23D of Sio and I will not let you down.
2:26Please help us. Really appreciate it.
2:27Let's get on with the show. [music]
2:33Alex, I I feel like we have to start
2:35with AI because it is front of mind for
2:39both I think my audience but also for
2:41entrepreneurs that I speak to at every
2:44step in the journey whether they are I
2:45was with Adara who's the CEO of Uber the
2:47other day um in New York and he that's
2:49what the conversation was about AI but
2:51then I speak to startup founders who are
2:52trying to build a software company and
2:54can't find a moat that is defensible
2:57those conversations are about AI. What
2:58is your how are you approaching this as
3:00an entrepreneur? How can we use AI to do
3:02the things that are the art the normal
3:04functions of the business at a way
3:06better, way faster, etc. What I'm seeing
3:08a lot especially with founders or people
3:10are starting out is they're using AI to
3:12do a lot of dumb things really fast and
3:15they're trying to build companies that
3:17the models are going to swallow up
3:18pretty much immediately anyways or
3:20already have for super users and it's
3:21just going to like become easier. And
3:24the question that I would ask for the
3:25entrepreneurs who are you know AI maxing
3:27right now and again I think it's very
3:29good to adopt new technology is are you
3:31making more money
3:33>> just the very simple are you making more
3:35money now and even though you're token
3:38maxing [laughter]
3:39>> and spending all this tokens like are
3:40you making more money and I had a a
3:42business I looked at the other day they
3:43had 11 VAS that were doing I can't
3:46remember some sort of like data cleaning
3:47work
3:48>> VAS
3:48>> yeah virtual assistants so lowkilled
3:51labor overseas that was doing work and I
3:53think it was something in the
3:54neighborhood of like $11,000 a month is
3:56what they were paying for these 11 VAS.
3:58And they were doing a good job and it
3:59all worked. And they then spent $350,000
4:03to try and create an AI system that
4:06would replace what these 11 virtual
4:08assistants were doing. But that means
4:10they spent three plus years of costs on
4:14what these 11 virtual assistants were
4:16doing. And it wasn't even the constraint
4:19of the business. It was just a process
4:21they could automate. Not that they
4:23should automate it because it's not the
4:25thing that's limiting their growth. And
4:26so they still need more customers and
4:28that wasn't the thing. This was like
4:29part of their their quote process or
4:31something, but that wasn't the
4:32limitation. They didn't have enough
4:33demand.
4:34>> People are using AI in the wrong places.
4:37They're trying to start AI businesses
4:38when they shouldn't start AI businesses.
4:40They should use AI in their business.
4:42They're trying to advertise as AI
4:43businesses when you should just
4:44advertise the thing that your customer
4:46cares about, which is the solution to
4:47their problem, the outcome. None of
4:49that's changed. But because you got
4:50really excited about it, you think your
4:52customers are going to be excited about
4:53it. But most people are a lot of people
4:54are afraid of AI. Um, so it's not
4:56necessarily even a positive and it's not
4:58making you more money, which is the
4:59final question.
5:00>> When you listen to someone like Elon
5:01Musk, he says that work will become
5:02optional in in the in the future. And I
5:05sat here with a couple of experts on AI.
5:07Then they kind of explained to me what
5:08it is. And from a very simplified
5:10perspective, this machine that has these
5:12neural nets in it, which have lots of
5:14parameters, basically connections like
5:15the human brain does. And when they
5:17train it, the parameters become
5:19reinforced to the the ones that made the
5:21right decision. And the ones that made
5:23the wrong decision are like basically
5:24cut out. Again, I'm simplifying this.
5:26>> These brains, these digital brains are
5:28getting bigger and bigger and bigger.
5:29Um, it's it's like almost inconceivable
5:31to me based on what they've said to me,
5:33these area experts, that at some point
5:35it isn't able to do a lot of the
5:37cognitive work that people are currently
5:39doing. My question really here is like
5:41where does the value remain in a world
5:43where intelligence
5:45is cheap
5:47>> and abundant and um higher one could say
5:51and also in a world where robotics are
5:52coming over the horizon too like where
5:54is the value I think stakes for example
5:57AI can give all of the recommendations
5:59in the world but someone has to own the
6:01decision
6:01>> and so as of [clears throat] right now
6:03maybe it will in the future AI isn't
6:04isn't a citizen of any you know any
6:06country it doesn't pay taxes and so
6:08somebody has to be responsible
6:09>> it's a liability Yeah.
6:10>> Yeah.
6:11>> And upside on on the flip side. And to
6:13take this into different domains from
6:14the media perspective, imagine Jimmy
6:16said Mr. Beast has a video and like Mr.
6:19Beast is going to replace by AI. He's
6:21not going to get replaced by AI because
6:23if he had a video that said $5 million
6:25and the $5 million wasn't real and the
6:27Lamborghini wasn't real, there'd be no
6:30stakes.
6:30>> Yeah.
6:31>> Like chess, right, has become more
6:33popular now than it's ever like than
6:34it's been in recent history. But robots
6:37can beat humans at chess.
6:38>> Mhm. But no one cares.
6:40>> I think about the F1 as well. You'd
6:41still want Lewis Hamilton in the car.
6:42You take him out the car, you stop
6:44watching F1,
6:44>> right? So humans want stakes. And so
6:48there's the compensation side of it,
6:49which is that somebody's going to be
6:50responsible. Someone has to risk the
6:51money. Somebody paid for the token.
6:52Somebody owns the LLC. Someone is is
6:54owns this. And so there is value in the
6:56judgment and the assumption of risk and
6:59upside.
6:59>> Mhm.
7:00>> Which can be money or just the
7:01responsibility. From a media
7:03perspective, we still have to introduce
7:04stakes into the into the show. Now, of
7:06course, there's going to be the fiction
7:06world. They're going to be much harder
7:07hit. But if you're trying to do a
7:09reality TV show, the real part has to be
7:12there.
7:12>> One of the um things that I find really
7:14interesting about you is you spend a lot
7:16of time thinking and in a world of
7:17artificial intelligence, a lot of people
7:19are now deferring their thinking to
7:22these frontier models like chatb or
7:23claim or whatever. And um we've spoken
7:26about this before, but one of the things
7:27we both agree is that knowing the right
7:29questions to ask, clarity of thought,
7:30critical thinking, making the decision
7:32is going to be one of the things in a
7:33world of AI that's critically important.
7:34So my question to you is like how are
7:36you having good ideas cultivating good
7:39ideas and giving your space your sort of
7:40mental space to be able to think about
7:43problems?
7:44>> Mhm.
7:44>> What's your practice?
7:45>> I'll I'll take this from two different
7:47angles. So first is I think outsourcing
7:49thinking to AI as of right now is still
7:51a really bad decision if you it's like I
7:54think anybody who's used AI for any
7:55period of time knows that you can get it
7:56to agree to anything. And that's
7:59frightening when it comes to making
8:01decisions. And so every time I'm like
8:03you know I think it has gotten a little
8:04better. I'll just give it like a really
8:05obvious decision to make. I'll go,
8:06"Okay, let's open up uh Claw. Let's open
8:08up OpenAI. Let's look like let's open
8:10all of them up and I'll ask the same
8:11question to all three and they're just
8:13all over the place." And so I'm like,
8:15"Okay, this is still back to my
8:17judgment." Right? Number two is that if
8:19you do delegate your decision-m to it,
8:22you get dumber. Now, there's all this
8:23research. I'm sure you've had people in
8:24the podcast who talked about it, and
8:25it's like I for sure like this is the
8:27best asset I've got for now, so I want
8:29to keep it as sharp as I can. Do not
8:31delegate the hardest work you the
8:33hardest thinking work you have because
8:34you will just get so weak so fast. A new
8:36idea that sprung into my mind over the
8:38last I'd say three to four months that
8:39I've kind of been chewing with is this
8:41idea of what happens when you go long. M
8:44>> so long-term thinking and how you build
8:47differently today if you just extend the
8:50time horizon and then how you can like
8:51beat competition just by like instead of
8:54thinking in terms of okay you know
8:55founders they always think in terms of 5
8:57years and then exit but what happens if
8:59you think in terms of like 50 years what
9:01are the different decisions you make in
9:02terms of the foundational blocks
9:05>> and this is why I have these blocks cuz
9:06I saw you do something on YouTube with
9:07some blocks before
9:08>> could you explain this idea of sort of
9:09long-term thinking in terms of
9:11foundations
9:11>> we do this exercise in person with
9:13entrepreneurs I think it's so powerful
9:14which is if I were to say, "Hey, build
9:16me the tallest tower using a series of
9:18blocks." If I say, "You have 5 seconds."
9:23You're going to you're right here,
9:24right? And that's that's all you got.
9:26And you're like, "Oh, it's time. Hands
9:27off." If I said, "Okay, now let's assume
9:29we had a little bit more blocks than I
9:30could build in in 5 seconds." And I
9:32said, "Okay, what if I said you had 5
9:33minutes? Would you build it differently?
9:35What if I said you had 5 days? What if I
9:37said you had 5 years?
9:38>> And you have unlimited blocks,
9:39>> right?" Yeah. And so what happens is the
9:41foundation completely changes based on
9:43the height of the building because of
9:44the time horizon you're thinking in.
9:46>> Yeah.
9:46>> I had a mentor tell me this um a long
9:49time ago and it like really stuck with
9:50me which is the fastest way to build a
9:52$10 million business is not the fastest
9:53way to build a $100 million business.
9:56>> Even in the fastest way to build a
9:57million dollar business is not the
9:58fastest way to build a $10 million
9:59business. Like you could probably build
10:00a oneperson agency to a million dollars
10:02a year pretty quick. One client,
10:04>> right? Yeah. It's just like it's just
10:05you could do it really quickly. getting
10:07to a hundred though, you you think about
10:10it differently. You would. And so I
10:12think um to your point, one of the still
10:15outstanding competitive advantages that
10:17you can have as an entrepreneur from a
10:18thinking perspective is just thinking
10:19longer.
10:20>> Yeah.
10:21>> It's really been front of mind to me.
10:22It's funny cuz when I started thinking
10:23about, do you know why it is? It's
10:25because I told myself in this season of
10:27life
10:28>> Mhm.
10:28>> that I was going to do the business that
10:30I'm running now, which is our holding
10:31company called Steven.com forever. And I
10:33immediately noticed that I made a
10:34different set of decisions. I started
10:36thinking about the factory I called it
10:38which is you know Elon's example of it's
10:40building a prototype is easy building
10:42the factory that builds the cars is 50x
10:44harder. I started obsessing over the
10:46factory which in in part in this analogy
10:47could also be seen as the foundations
10:49that we lay to make this durable over
10:51the long term. And then speaking of Elon
10:53I look at the decisions he made with
10:55both SpaceX which I'm an investor in and
10:57Tesla where he was like you know I could
10:59have bought the batteries from Ford but
11:01I'm going to make a completely new
11:02battery from scratch. you know, um, I
11:04could have used other people's
11:05electricity chargers, but I'm going to
11:07build the entire charging network across
11:08the United States from scratch.
11:10>> And this is someone who was thinking
11:11long term. And what happens then is they
11:13have the most durable moat 7 years from
11:16now. And and that's so this is that
11:19becomes the value of the business. And
11:20actually, it was all a byproduct of just
11:22thinking over a longer time horizon.
11:24entrepreneurs and startup founders as
11:25you know we like rush to like get the
11:27exit raise as much money as we can
11:29>> and it looks like you're you're in an
11:31unstable building there. Yeah,
11:33>> it looks like that
11:34>> strong wind, right? [laughter]
11:36>> I could blow that over.
11:37>> Even during the exit process, if it's a
11:39fast, you know, company, it's like
11:41you're kind of like just please stay,
11:43just everything stay fine. No one leave,
11:47you know, like no big accounts go away.
11:49Like you're just like holding your
11:51breath for 6 months and being like,
11:52[laughter] please just go through. And
11:54then if it goes down to this for like a
11:56week or two and they're like, hey, why
11:57are the billables down? You're like, uh,
11:59no, it's a it's it's a momentary ble. It
12:01was expected. did was actually in our
12:02did I not send you the updated forecast?
12:03[laughter] Like it's a whole thing. Um
12:05and I'll do it with the drawing because
12:06it might be it might be a little bit
12:08easier. But like if you were to build a
12:11hundred story building, you'd have to
12:13dig way deeper. You'd have to have a
12:15much you'd have you build with different
12:16materials going up. And so there's a
12:19hundred decisions that get made that if
12:21you're doing a hundred stories versus
12:23one, [clears throat] you would you
12:24choose differently. And so where it gets
12:26really tough is that people will they
12:28want to have it all. And so they say, I
12:30want to have the speed of building a
12:31one-story building, but then they get to
12:33one story and say, well, actually, I
12:34want to get I want to have a 10-story
12:36building, but the foundation wasn't
12:38right. And so this is where
12:39entrepreneurs will they'll do this.
12:41They'll they'll skyrocket here and then
12:43they and then they plateau.
12:44>> And [clears throat] then sometimes,
12:46unfortunately, the correct step is that
12:48you have to take two steps back, rebuild
12:49the foundation, and then it goes up
12:51again. M.
12:52>> And so I think to your point, focus and
12:55patience are the two enduring
12:58competitive advantages because they're
12:59so antihuman.
13:00>> Yeah. So antihuman. So anti- Instagram.
13:03I've got no announcement to make this
13:05month because I'm doing boring like
13:08hiring.
13:09>> Like Basos like the the decision I still
13:12think about this like the decision that
13:13he made that he was going to say like
13:14I'm going to have a logistics company be
13:17my competitive moat. He's a like he
13:20started as a bookstore online and to go
13:23from there to like no we're going to own
13:25the trucks and the warehouses and be
13:27better at warehouse and delivery than
13:29anyone else.
13:31>> That's what we're going to do with our
13:32online internet business.
13:34>> Like just but like who can unseat Amazon
13:36right now? Really tough. What's
13:38interesting as well is that that
13:40particular moment there where the
13:41entrepreneur gets this they they come to
13:43people like me and you in the street and
13:45they say
13:46>> they are I can't get past your
13:48bottleneck. Yeah.
13:49>> What is it that they should have done?
13:50So many entrepreneurs come up to me,
13:51they might hit, I don't know, 500k
13:52revenue, a million revenue, and they
13:53come up to me and they go, I don't know
13:54what to do. How do I get to 10 million
13:56from here?
13:57>> Yeah.
13:57>> And I think in part what you're saying
13:58is they they should have made a decision
14:00earlier on to build a slightly different
14:02type of company from zero. I'll say what
14:05the million-dollar business owner is
14:06missing when they're trying to get to 10
14:08is what they would have done differently
14:09is they would have stayed longer in the
14:11product market fit phase or trying to
14:13make sure that the customers who come in
14:15keep wanting to spend money with them
14:17which they either do periodically. So
14:19like if you buy a soda that you like,
14:20you keep buying it. It's not like you're
14:21on a subscription but you just buy it
14:23regularly. On the other hand, there's
14:25subscription revenue which is truly
14:26recurring uh like your Netflix
14:28subscription, whatever. But they know
14:31that when that customer comes in contact
14:33with the business, they're going to stay
14:34and that money is going to keep going,
14:35which is what allows it to stack. And so
14:36if we think at the most basic level, if
14:39every time you get a customer, they
14:40never left, then the business will do
14:41nothing but grow.
14:42>> It [clears throat] will either stay the
14:43same or it will grow whenever you get a
14:44new customer, it just keeps growing. And
14:46the difficulty of the the the $1 million
14:48entrepreneur is that getting to a
14:49million dollars, you can do really
14:50quickly or 10. And I know that the the
14:52world is like, I can't believe that. I
14:53promise you, you can do it if you just
14:54learn enough skills. Um, but that can
14:56happen really quickly because it just
14:57doesn't take a lot of moving parts to
14:58make it happen. Getting to a hundred or
15:00getting to a billion dollars in revenue,
15:02I haven't gotten to a billion yet, but I
15:03I feel confident I know what we need to
15:04do. The million-dollar entrepreneur is
15:06trying to fit a billion dollars of new
15:08sales in in one year.
15:09>> Mhm. [clears throat]
15:10>> And that's the problem is that at the at
15:11the end of next year, because all the
15:13customers they signed up to make their
15:14million dollars are gone because they
15:17aren't good enough, they have to go back
15:18to the market market and sell and get
15:20another million dollars of customers. So
15:21they think, "Oh, if I if I want to get
15:22to $2 million a year, I have to go sell
15:25twice as many customers." Which is true,
15:26but if we had to compare two companies,
15:28let's say we have company A and company
15:29B. All right, we got company A, company
15:31B. They both are selling a hundred, you
15:34know, new widgets a year. Okay,
15:37let's say company B loses all of the
15:40hundred, but they want to double because
15:42it's an entrepreneur. He's like, I got
15:43to grow. And so he sells 200 people year
15:45two. Well, then let's say he's got $2
15:47million in revenue, and he's got $1
15:48million revenue here. And let's say year
15:50three, uh, he sells 300 units, but he
15:52lost all 200 again because he has no
15:54stickiness. And so he makes $3 million.
15:56Okay, cool. [snorts] Now, let's say this
15:59company A sells 100 year one, they make
16:01a million dollars. They keep all 100
16:03customers. Okay, but let's say that that
16:05company keeps the same number of people
16:08they're selling new. So 100 new
16:09customers come in this year, but they
16:10keep their old hundred. So now they also
16:13have 200 customers and do $2 million.
16:15And then year three, they keep their
16:17same 100 and then the 100 from year two.
16:19So now they have 300 total customers
16:20because they got 100 new and they have
16:22three million. So both of these
16:24businesses on paper,
16:26your entrepreneur friend comes to you
16:27and says, "Hey, I've got a $3 million
16:29business and I've got a $3 million
16:31business. Which one do you invest in?"
16:32>> Mhm. [clears throat]
16:33Now you and I do this every day. And
16:35we're like, "All day we [snorts] do this
16:36one, not this one." Because next year
16:39he's got to go and sell 600 new
16:41customers. Now, where this gets, you can
16:43start seeing this in the financials
16:44because I can tell you that the cost of
16:46getting 300 new customers costs
16:48significantly more than the cost of
16:49getting a 100 new customers and having
16:51200 customers that are existing and
16:52still paying you.
16:53>> And so, you're going to see that in the
16:55bottom line getting compressed and this
16:56is where, you know, growth at all costs
16:57becomes a problem.
16:59>> But for this entrepreneur, he spent the
17:02time to figure out how to get all 100
17:04customers to stay. Now if he encounters
17:06your distribution or my distribution and
17:08then all of a sudden we say great now I
17:10know that I can bring this thing 10,000
17:12new customers then this thing becomes a
17:14billion dollar year business because we
17:16solve the most important part first
17:18which is that the revenue stays and so
17:20when people build in a rush they don't
17:21build a good enough thing and so as a
17:23result you scale really quickly and this
17:24is where knowing marketing and sales can
17:25be dangerous because the better you are
17:27at marketing and sales the faster you
17:28can grow revenue but you get to a point
17:30where you you have a certain velocity of
17:32sales I can only sell 100 people or 200
17:34people or 500 a thousand people a month,
17:36whatever it is. And at that point, you
17:37either have to always be seeking more
17:39distribution because you have a hole in
17:40the back of your bus, but the moment the
17:42sales stop, the business craters. And I
17:45would say that that is more common than
17:46the alternative, which is that you
17:48actually have a sticky business.
17:49>> The other thing people talk to me about
17:50when they come up to me in the street,
17:51when they hit that moment where they're
17:52doing about a million in revenue, is
17:53they say, you know, my customers love
17:55me. They keep coming back, but I've ran
17:57out of time. Basically,
17:58>> yeah, this is an interesting one because
18:00a lot of times if I have the same
18:01response where someone says, hey, I'm
18:03running out of time. The first question
18:04I'll ask is, "What's your margin?" If
18:07they have really thin margins, they
18:09can't afford to get help. That's the
18:11symptom, but not the root cause. The
18:13root cause is either that their offer is
18:16incorrect in that what they're offering,
18:18the price and the terms of their
18:20delivery are too low compared to each
18:22other. You're offering too much for too
18:23little, [clears throat]
18:24>> or you don't have a marketing or sales
18:26motion that allows that value to be
18:28demonstrated to someone. So, they'd be
18:30willing to pay a premium.
18:31>> On pricing, then how do you think about
18:33pricing? Is it a subjective thing or is
18:35it an objective thing? I do I go look at
18:36the market and see what everyone else is
18:37charging and then decide that or is it
18:39what I feel like I deserve? [laughter]
18:42>> I think what we feel we deserve matters
18:43the least in that in that
18:45>> I think it's all about what the customer
18:46is willing to pay. And so one of the
18:49hardest parts for for newer
18:50entrepreneurs is they sell out of their
18:51own wallet.
18:52>> What do you mean?
18:52>> And so it's like if I have somebody
18:54who's really good at fixing cars,
18:55they're like, "Well, it's not that hard.
18:56You just, you know, do a little screws
18:58here." Like I would I wouldn't pay
18:59anybody for that. Like I do it for free.
19:00It's like, "Yeah, but I don't want to do
19:02it, and I would pay you a lot to do it
19:04cuz I don't want to fix my car." And so,
19:06because it's been easy for you, you
19:08think it's easy for everyone. And
19:09because you think it's easy for
19:10everyone, you're not willing to charge a
19:11lot for it.
19:12>> And so, they get into this vicious cycle
19:14of undercharging and having not enough
19:16margin. And then as a result, having to
19:18do more of the work and then if they get
19:20more work coming, they don't want to say
19:21no. And so, then they basically fill up
19:22their entire plate. that they have no
19:23excess capacity but that they can't they
19:25don't have the time to train anyone they
19:26don't have the time to interview they
19:27don't have the time or or the or the
19:29cash right to to afford the next person
19:31and so usually when someone's like I'm
19:33overwhelmed if I say do you have a lot
19:36of margin then either yeah you're
19:38running 70% margin dude like hire some
19:40help if they don't then it's two or
19:42three steps earlier where the offer is
19:44wrong the sales motion's wrong which
19:45typically they're mispriced
19:47>> do you get it all the time where people
19:48say to you um you know Alex I tried to
19:50hire someone and they up and so I
19:52can't I can't trust trust anybody to do
19:53it as well as I can and the clients love
19:55me.
19:56>> I think it's ego.
19:58>> Yeah.
19:58>> I think we want to be special and I
20:00think we like to be needed and I think
20:02that
20:04it is not the business's job to solve
20:06your emotional needs.
20:07>> Mhm.
20:08>> The business's job to serve the
20:09customers.
20:10>> Mhm.
20:10>> And so we are not as unique as we think.
20:13If you could go back in time, you could
20:14teach yourself in a tenth of time
20:15because you know all the mistakes that
20:16you made and the right things that
20:17actually ended up working. So it's like
20:18great. instead of taking 10 times as
20:20long you did to learn it the first time,
20:21go back as though you were teaching it
20:23the right way to somebody else.
20:25>> And so you can collapse the time it
20:26takes to teach someone how to do the
20:27job. And most times what founders are
20:30looking for is a unicorn, right? They're
20:32like, "Okay, uh, I have two employees
20:36and I do everything. And so I need to
20:37hire someone who's just going to be like
20:39me and just do everything else." It's
20:40like, it's not going to work that way.
20:41And so I use this little analogy that I
20:42like, which is, so we have our our horn
20:44of the unicorn. This is going to be so
20:45bad. Here we go. So, we've got our
20:47[laughter]
20:49All right. Here we go. We'll give it a
20:51little hoof. Maybe a little some tail.
20:53Here we go. And here we go. And we need
20:55to have some some sparkle, right? Cuz
20:57it's a unicorn special. Okay. Let's go a
20:59little donk there. But they're trying to
21:00replace themselves with a unicorn. But
21:02there are no unicorns. And we know this.
21:03And so they go through interview and
21:04interview and then they never find
21:05anybody because they can't find a
21:06unicorn. But if you're like, "How do I
21:08find an animal that's got a horn?" Well,
21:11you could go find a rhino. Okay, I've
21:12got a rhino. They've got the horn. It's
21:14like, okay, and then I need a horse.
21:16Well, I can go find a horse and then I
21:18got to find the sparkle. So, I'll get
21:19some fireflies for the sparkle and then
21:21I'll get a horse for the horse. And so,
21:23just like that, instead of saying, "Oh,
21:24I someone has to live my exact life and
21:27have gone through the exa exact same
21:29trial and tribulations to figure out all
21:30the unique things that I know." It's
21:32like, no,
21:33>> they try to find in one person what they
21:34can more easily find in three.
21:35>> This is relationship advice as well,
21:37isn't it? [laughter]
21:38>> Right. Demanding your your partner uh be
21:40all things to you,
21:42>> your coach, your uh you know, your guru,
21:44your therapist, your biggest
21:46cheerleader. Yeah, it's exactly that.
21:48It's it's just and I think in some ways
21:50there's an ego element that I think is
21:51very reinforcing which is that I'm so
21:53special, no one can do what I can do.
21:54And I think that's a very attractive lie
21:56that we like to believe.
21:58>> I guess there's also inherent in that um
22:01insecurity and fear that you see in
22:04these early entrepreneurs that if I hire
22:06another person, I now have the
22:07responsibility of paying them. Right now
22:10it's me, it's safe. I can control this.
22:12Um, but if I bring on other people,
22:13they've got mortgages and families. So
22:15now, now it's terrifying. So, a good way
22:17to justify my fear to myself is by
22:19saying, "Look, I tried. I can't trust
22:20anybody. I couldn't find anybody good.
22:22>> I guess it's just going to have to be
22:23me, myself, and I."
22:24>> And I think if that's what you want,
22:27like, go for it. Yeah. I just like I I
22:29think I think there's I think there's
22:30going to be a lot more solreers, you
22:31know, in the in the coming future. There
22:32already are. I think it's it's a goal
22:34question. What do you want?
22:36>> What mistakes did you make when you
22:37started hiring?
22:38>> Oh, my bar wasn't high enough.
22:40>> Okay. I think at the most basic level
22:42like what is the job like if you remove
22:44everything else what survives and I
22:46think holding the standard survives
22:49because if you're the one responsible
22:50then you have to be the one who
22:51determines what is good enough.
22:53>> It's [clears throat] my view that in
22:55every given department the person who's
22:57highest up should have the highest
22:59standard and if somebody ever gets to a
23:01point where they have a higher standard
23:02for ACU than I do they should run it not
23:04me.
23:05>> There should be a button just down below
23:07here and if it says subscribed you're
23:09already subscribed. If it says
23:10subscriber, that means you're not yet.
23:13And if you're not subscribed, please
23:14could you do us a favor and hit that
23:15button? It helps the show more than you
23:17know. And according to the algorithm,
23:18you're someone that watches our show,
23:20but you haven't yet hit that button.
23:21Thank you so much. Have you seen a
23:24change in the types of questions that
23:25you're being asked? Because because the
23:27world has changed, people are more
23:28interested in personal branding or
23:29business or whatever else. Are people
23:31asking you new questions?
23:33>> No, actually, I don't think. Yeah.
23:34>> What are the questions that you get
23:35asked? I get asked a lot of like, "Hey,
23:38I'm thinking about doing this this
23:40thing. What do you think?" I'm thinking
23:41about starting this kind of business.
23:42I'm thinking about starting a podcast
23:43agency. What do you think? It doesn't
23:45matter what I think. [laughter]
23:48I'm like, and so I'll just ask the next
23:50question, which is like, well, what have
23:51you done so far?
23:53>> Why'd you ask that?
23:54>> Well, because the answer nine times out
23:55of 10 is, well, I mean, I haven't I was
23:57just thinking about it. I'm like, okay,
23:59well then nothing's happened. what's
24:01going on there with those people that
24:03come up to you and they say they're
24:04thinking about something but they
24:05haven't done anything about it.
24:06>> I'm guessing that they want to talk to
24:07me about business stuff and so this is
24:09the only business related thing that
24:10they can talk about and so that's
24:11probably why they talk about it or they
24:12bring it up. Um or they want to feel
24:14like in some ways it's kind of like
24:15procrastive procrastination or that I'm
24:17going to somehow give them one answer
24:19that's going to like finally get them
24:20over the hump of starting. But most
24:23people start because one starting feels
24:25like this very amorphous thing when when
24:28like
24:30I was about to say like has there ever
24:31been something that you don't know how
24:32to do?
24:33Well, whenever I approach something that
24:35I don't know how to do, it always feels
24:37amorphous. It's like this big thing and
24:38I don't know where to start. Like how do
24:41like how do I grab onto a piece of it?
24:43And so having gone and attacked like
24:45these amorphous things like start a
24:47business which actually means nothing.
24:49You have to break things down to much
24:50smaller steps of action. That's why for
24:53me the most basic thing to start a
24:54business is like get an LLC,
24:57[clears throat]
24:57>> open a bank account, have the ability to
24:59process money, and then ask a stranger
25:01if you can do something for them in
25:02exchange for money. As soon as you do
25:04those four things, congratulations,
25:05you're a business owner. You've already
25:07beaten like 95% of people who and you've
25:10also changed your title from
25:11entrepreneur to entrepreneur. And I
25:14think that is one of the most mo just
25:15like um when when a customer buys from
25:17you versus just consuming your free
25:19stuff, their identity completely
25:20changes. They're now a customer which
25:21means they're far more likely to
25:22purchase uh future things from you than
25:24somebody who's not bought something.
25:25That's why you know ascensions and
25:26renewals are much easier than getting
25:27somebody to buy the first time, right?
25:28And so I think to the same degree for us
25:30as entrepreneurs or people who aspire to
25:31be an entrepreneur, it's like go make
25:32the first dollar and then as soon as you
25:34have that taste of like oh this isn't I
25:36I actually grabbed the corner of this
25:38thing. I I I understand. And I just got
25:39to get them to give me money to do
25:41something.
25:42>> Or I can build something and then have
25:43them buy it from me and then I have to
25:45figure out how to build more of them,
25:46right? If it's a thing. But like that's
25:48it at the most basic level. And
25:49everything else is just is is confusion.
25:51If you could go back to the starting
25:53blocks and whisper something in Alex's
25:55ear when he was starting up advice that
25:58would have made the journey easier, more
26:00profitable, whatever. What is what are
26:02the sort of layers of advice you would
26:03have given him at this as starting
26:04blocks? [sighs and gasps]
26:06>> So I've actually thought about this a
26:08lot. If I went back in time and I saw an
26:10older version of myself, if he appeared
26:12in this room right now, let's say 20
26:13years from now, is looking at me,
26:16my hope is that he would say nothing
26:18because it would mean that it worked.
26:21Now, if I if I was going back and let's
26:22say that I I I hadn't taken the step and
26:25I hadn't been able to to make the jump,
26:26what I say in that instance um
26:30is you have to decide whether you care
26:31more about your future than what other
26:32people think about your future.
26:35Someone's version of you has to die.
26:38It's either your desired version of you
26:40or someone else's desired version of
26:42you. And the thing is you're going to be
26:43with you a lot longer than they are. I
26:46think everything in the very beginning
26:47of entrepreneurship comes down to one
26:48thing which is fear and justified. It's
26:51it makes sense to be afraid. Like
26:52there's a lot of risk. There's a ton of
26:54unknown. There's so much stuff that you
26:55don't know. But the only thing I can
26:57also say is that it also puts you in the
26:59exact same position as every other
27:00person who started entrepreneurship.
27:01They didn't know. And the only way to
27:03know is to start. and to have faith that
27:08you will not know the way up the
27:09mountain, but as you walk up the
27:11mountain, the fog starts to clear. And
27:14the fog will always be there, but you'll
27:15always be able to see the couple steps
27:16in front of you. And so, your
27:18responsibility is to only take the steps
27:19that you can see in front of you. That
27:20is it. And then once you take those
27:22steps, the next steps will become clear.
27:24And I think that's where there's an
27:26obsession with knowing the entirety. And
27:28and it's because we want certainty. We
27:31want to know that if we do all of these
27:32things, it's going to work. And you
27:33don't. You want certainty from a world
27:35that will give you none. And if you were
27:37uncomfortable with that,
27:38entrepreneurship might not be for real.
27:40>> Yeah.
27:40>> But I I even say that and I almost I
27:42almost I almost regret saying that
27:44because I was so riskaverse when I
27:46started like people see the content now
27:48or they see you now and you're so
27:50confident and and great on podcast and
27:52like but I'm sure the first podcast you
27:53did, you like look at it and you just
27:55absolutely cringe, right? I had a video
27:57that I put out that was like the first
27:58content that I made that I was like
28:00reacting to my own first content and
28:01it's horrendous. It's horrible. But the
28:03thing is is that you have to be willing
28:05to be cringe.
28:06>> You must embrace cringes. You will not
28:08be cool. It will not look good. You will
28:10suck and everyone will know you suck and
28:12you will know you suck.
28:14>> But again, it's do I care more about
28:16their version of me or my version of me?
28:18And am I willing to be a work in
28:20progress or am I unwilling to do it
28:22because I want to keep my current
28:23station in life? But the thing is is
28:25that you're at a local maximum and
28:27there's a desire in you probably if I'm
28:29talking to my younger self to be at a
28:31higher maximum than I am right now. feel
28:32like I'm capable of doing more, but I'm
28:35so afraid of risking this tiny little
28:36bit that I've built for myself. But the
28:39the the reality is that the only
28:41guarantee that you have of all the paths
28:43in front of you is that you stay on the
28:45current path, you will not get what you
28:46want.
28:46>> Mhm.
28:47>> So there is a chance that you get what
28:49you want if you move, but there is zero
28:51chance if you stay. And I think those
28:53were some of the thought processes that
28:55actually got me to take action was
28:56knowing that I for sure guaranteed 100%
28:59would be dissatisfied with my life if I
29:00had not taken the shot. and then playing
29:02out plan B with excruciating detail. And
29:05I think that's also one of the big ones
29:06for fear is that like fear only exists
29:08in the vague, never in the specific.
29:10Also, so does confusion, right? So the
29:14fear is I'm going to do this thing and
29:16I'm going to fail. Fail's not specific.
29:19And I'm and then everyone's going to
29:20hate me and then eventually I'm going to
29:22get ostracized and die. Like we
29:24catastrophize everything because we're
29:25evolutionary beings, right? We're we're
29:26we're mammals. But if you really think
29:28what does failure like what does failure
29:30even mean? I I I ask someone to buy and
29:33they say no. Is that failure? What if I
29:35ask another person? What if I ask a 100
29:36people? Okay. Well, what if I ask 100
29:38people, all 100 people say no? Am I
29:40allowed to change what I'm what I'm
29:41offering? Yes. Okay. So, you get another
29:44100 people and maybe one of them says
29:45yes. Okay. But even in that period of
29:47time where you had the hundred people
29:48who all said no to you and let's say you
29:50quit your job and so you have no income.
29:52Okay. What are what are the options
29:54available to you? Can you talk can you
29:56go and sleep on a friend's couch? Can
29:57you go back home with your tail between
29:59your legs? Well, it's only till between
30:00your legs if you stop trying. If you go
30:02home and say, "Mom and dad, I want to
30:03save up some capital so that I can I can
30:05extend my runway so that I can go after
30:07this big goal. Mom and dad might be
30:09cool. It might be friends. It might be
30:10or maybe 10 friends going together." And
30:11and because I split a bedroom,
30:13>> so I had a house with six people in it.
30:16Um and I split one of the bedrooms with
30:18another guy. I paid 400 bucks a month
30:19and I had a mattress on the floor and I
30:21was never there. But it was just like I
30:22tried to keep my living expenses as low
30:24as possible. And I think one of the big
30:25ones especially is that um people are
30:27unwilling to sacrifice their short-term
30:29lifestyle and appearances in order to
30:32achieve their long-term goal. And so
30:33they're handcuffed to their lifestyle.
30:35>> And [clears throat] so you'd be
30:36astonished at how little you can
30:37actually live on if you try to live on
30:39little.
30:39>> This goes to back to the long-term
30:40thinking argument as well, which is like
30:42if you think about your status in 10
30:44years versus today.
30:45>> Yes. And I'm I'm willing to take this
30:47dip.
30:49One of the things you said was really
30:50interesting and I it dawned on me that
30:51most people might not realize this about
30:53people like you, which is that you said
30:55there's uncertainty all the way up. Now,
30:57I imagine imagine an 18-year-old
30:59entrepreneur listening to Alex Mosi.
31:00They're going to be thinking, "Oh, he's
31:01got everything figured out all the way
31:02up." And he's no longer living with
31:04uncertainty, fear, confusion, ambiguity.
31:06He's no longer having to think hard
31:07about how to solve a problem because
31:08he's got all the answers. But actually,
31:10as you described it, in my head, I I
31:12imagined all of these this sequence of
31:15almost neverending doors that all just
31:18have a cryptic message on on them. And
31:21you imagine you go through one door and
31:22there's 10 more and they all [laughter]
31:23have you go through one, okay, this was
31:25the right one. And then there's 10 new
31:27ones that all have a vague language on
31:29them. And you've got to pick which one
31:31to go through next. You go through,
31:32okay, you bounced off that one.
31:33you took an L. Lost some money. You go
31:35through another one. Okay, this was the
31:36right one. And then there's 20.
31:38[laughter] actually your optionality is
31:39increasing with the more success you
31:41have. So there's more doors and more
31:42decisions to make, more uncertainty,
31:44which most people don't realize. But
31:45actually, as you were saying, I was
31:46thinking, "Fuck, this is exactly what
31:47I'm going through now." Like I I was up
31:48till the early hours of the morning with
31:50one of my colleagues yesterday night and
31:52we're just figuring out which door to
31:54walk through. So this is really
31:56interesting because the earlier you are
31:58in your journey, the more specific the
31:59advice is because if you do not have a
32:02business, the first step is the same for
32:04everyone which is you must start an
32:06entity and then you have to have a bank
32:08account so that you can exchange money
32:09and you have to have a a way or manner
32:11of collecting that cash. Now of course
32:12you could have cash business but I would
32:14say most people use credit cards now. So
32:15you have a processor, a bank account and
32:17an entity.
32:18>> It doesn't matter what business you
32:19start that is the first step. Now, as
32:21the business grows, you have more
32:23resources. The the nature of the
32:25business is different. And so, the
32:26number of doors that are ahead of you
32:27are actually multiplied by a huge
32:29factor.
32:30>> And so, right now, it's actually never
32:31easier to know what to do than when you
32:33start. And so, it has nothing to do with
32:35you not knowing. Of course, you know, I
32:36just we just said it.
32:38>> It's everything to figure out why you're
32:40not doing it. and more specifically
32:43whose voice you're listening to that is
32:46not yours that you are afraid of
32:48disappointing or afraid of their
32:50judgment. And if you can identify that
32:52voice cuz and you actually put a name on
32:54it, it's not like, oh, what are people
32:55going to think? It's not people. It's
32:56probably like two people. And if you
32:58name, you're like, oh, it's just James
32:59and Betty.
33:00>> Yeah.
33:01>> So, this is really real. So, one, when I
33:03was about to sell Gym Lodge, I really I
33:05it was actually a very hard decision for
33:06me. Super hard. Um, and when I exited,
33:10one of the reasons I almost didn't exit
33:12was because there was somebody that I
33:13knew in my circle, not even like a super
33:15close friend, that I realized when I got
33:17really clear on whose voice I cared
33:20about, I thought that they didn't think
33:21that $46 million was enough money, that
33:24they wouldn't think it was legit.
33:25[laughter] I'm dead serious.
33:29>> Funny to hear. [laughter]
33:30>> He's not going to think he's not going
33:31to think I'm legit. It was only when I
33:33was like, am I going to not do this and
33:36let him control me? Cuz that's what it
33:38is. They control you.
33:39>> And I think when you say it in those
33:40terms, it feels like much heavier, like
33:42I'm letting my mom or my uncle or my
33:44brother or the the coworker John control
33:47me
33:47>> because I that's how much I care about
33:49this guy's approval. I care I have to
33:51care about my approval more.
33:53>> I want to say say this in more detail
33:54because I think it's it's important. The
33:56person that you see in front of you is
33:57not the person who who took the leap to
34:00start the business. I belabored that
34:02decision
34:04for 6 months. I had almost like a
34:07pre-anned answer and people were like,
34:08"Oh, so what do you do with your
34:08career?" Oh, you know, I'm consultant
34:10like to do a business school and then
34:10someday start my own business. It was
34:11like I I could say it in my sleep, but
34:14the someday start my own business. When
34:15I tried to think a little bit more first
34:17principles, I was like, "Okay, well, in
34:19what way is this business school going
34:20to help me start a business?" And when I
34:22looked at the starting salaries of
34:23business school, it was like $120,000 a
34:25year after you went to a good business
34:27school. And I thought to myself, well,
34:28it cost me $60,000 a year and I can't
34:30make money during that period. So I'm
34:31going to lose$120 for sure and at the
34:33time I was making $50 $60,000 a year.
34:35And so I was like, so it's $240,000 is
34:38my call it my opportunity cost in two
34:40years. Do I think that I can take the
34:42money that I had saved up and in two
34:44years get to $10,000 a month? I was
34:46like, I think I can do it. And so that
34:48was part of the reason that I ended up
34:50not going to business school and it was
34:51because of a question on the business
34:52school test was how will a Booth MBA
34:54help a short and long-term goals? And I
34:56just sat there for three days trying to
34:57answer it and I realized I was like I
34:58don't know if it will help my long term.
34:59>> Interesting.
35:00>> So I mean it's good that they have those
35:01questions because they actually forced
35:02me to answer it. Now back to the the six
35:05months I read I I was probably reading
35:09no joke a book every two days cuz I the
35:11job that I had had high seasons and low
35:13seasons. And during low seasons I
35:14basically just read books and they were
35:15almost all self-help books. And I got to
35:18this point after reading however many of
35:19them that I looked back at my life and
35:20realized it was exactly the same. And I
35:22thought, "Oh, if I don't do anything, my
35:25life's not going to change." And so I
35:27had this idea that if I just keep
35:29reading these books, somehow my life was
35:31just going to change. And that was like
35:33one of the realizations that I had. I
35:35had a friend who was also in a white
35:37collar, you know, job like I was. And
35:38every night we'd probably get on the
35:40phone for 2 to three hours and talk
35:42about how we were going to start a
35:43business. And I had this I had this this
35:45IKEA carpet that I bought that was a a
35:46cowhide carpet. And the spot where I'd
35:49walk back and forth was like worn out on
35:51the cowh high because of how much I
35:52would just pace in my small uh flat just
35:55going back and forth just talking about
35:57the ideas that I had to start a
35:59business. Every time I wanted to start
36:01it, I would tell my dad I want to start
36:02the business and he he would be like,
36:04"Let's let's not be unreasonable here."
36:06He's like, "You've got a good job." He's
36:07like, "You're following the plan. You
36:08did Vanderbilt in three years. You had
36:10good grades. You got you were going to
36:11do two years here. Then you go to one of
36:13the top IV, you know, NBA schools. Like
36:15it's you're good. Don't like this is
36:17part of it. This is part of it. Right?
36:19>> I acted with such cowardice that I had
36:22to I had to drive halfway across the
36:25country before I could call my dad to
36:27tell him that I that I had quit my job
36:29and that I was going to start a business
36:32because I knew that if I had done it
36:34while he was there, he would talk me out
36:35of it because he had already talked me
36:37out of it a bunch of times.
36:38>> Why was he doing that? I I learned a
36:39little bit about his background over the
36:41last couple of days. I've got some
36:42photos. I mean,
36:43>> ah that's right. Dear G.
36:45>> And I think there's context in his own
36:47story which
36:48>> completes the picture.
36:50>> So whatever people see of my success I
36:52think in a lot of ways what my dad
36:54accomplished the more I think about it
36:56is bigger. My dad fled during the
36:58Iranian uh revolution right and then he
37:01went to go to uh France to become a
37:04doctor but he didn't speak French. And
37:07so he had to go try to go into medical
37:10school and take Orgo in a language that
37:12he didn't understand. And so he failed
37:14two years in a row. His brother was
37:15like, "Go to Belgium, start fresh, go to
37:17a new place." And so he ended up uh
37:19getting all the way through medical
37:20school. And then he met my mother in
37:22medical school and then they came back
37:23to the US. Now his medical degree didn't
37:26transfer to the US. And so he had to get
37:28a US fellowship in order a residency or
37:30whatever. But no one would take a Middle
37:32Eastern guy who had a super thick accent
37:34who was fresh out of medical school and
37:35there was all these US-based people
37:36here. And so for two years he ran X-ray
37:38slides. He finally gets a residency and
37:40then he decides when he comes back to
37:42Baltimore, which is where my where where
37:43I'm from, that he's going to instead of
37:46join the practice that my mother had
37:48with her father. He was going to go out
37:50on his own, which is pretty ballsy,
37:52right? He didn't have foreigner, didn't
37:54have anything. And so he asked to find
37:56out how much a construction cost for
37:58building your own surgery center. And it
37:59was like $250,000 then, so it was a lot
38:01of money. He didn't have that. And so he
38:04looked at all the legal requirements for
38:05what what it entails to be a serger
38:07center. And then he went to Home Depot
38:09and built a surgery center that met all
38:11the specs and got it inspected so that
38:12he could have his own surgery center in
38:14his practice. Then right as his practice
38:16was starting to work, my parents got
38:18divorced. They changed the the locks on
38:20the door cuz he had like a separate
38:21thing. His patients show up and they
38:23didn't know where to go. It was an ugly
38:25divorce. And so then he's he's starting
38:28his own and this is when he was talking
38:29to me then. So fast forward now. He's
38:32like, "I've been in practice for, you
38:33know, 20, 30 years, whatever." He's
38:35like, "Those years, I didn't even think
38:38about him." I think I was like, "I feel
38:39like I'm not moving fast enough. I feel
38:40like I need to need to do these things."
38:42And he's like, "Dude, a year, two years
38:45now." He's like, "It's nothing." He's
38:46like, "When your mind, you're not even
38:47going to think you're not even remember
38:48it."
38:49>> The the honest truth of the matter is
38:51that I
38:53really desperately wanted to prove that
38:55I could do it on my own.
38:56>> Who did you want to prove that to?
38:58>> I don't know. Everyone. Me, him, the
39:00world. I remember being terrified about
39:02the idea of winning the lottery. Sounds
39:06really weird. [laughter] When I was in
39:07college, I bought a Super Bowl ticket
39:09because it was like a billion dollars or
39:10something. I was like, "Let's do it for
39:11fun, whatever." And I and I remember
39:12having this this moment right before the
39:14the number was going to get called of
39:15sheer terror of what if I win because I
39:18was like, I will never be able to prove
39:20that I I have the medal, that I can do
39:22it. And so, and of course people would
39:25say that now if someone wants to give me
39:26a billion dollars, I'm happy to use it.
39:27Because to be fair though, because I
39:28already have this I already have the
39:30status and the track record that I that
39:31I built this.
39:32>> And this also the reason that like when
39:34I started my my business like I didn't
39:36take a loan like I used my own money
39:38that I had saved because I I wanted to
39:41be mine and I knew I would know. And I
39:44think yeah, my dad had absolutely
39:45perfect intentions. He gave me what I
39:46believe to be for vast majority of
39:48people probably pretty good advice. Mhm.
39:50>> It just wasn't the advice that I needed
39:53for the goals that I had.
39:54>> There's an interesting thing because
39:56people like me and you make business
39:57content and we talk about
39:58entrepreneurship a lot.
39:59>> Um I I often wonder if we're leading
40:01some people astray in the context of
40:03some people actually should take that
40:04advice. Some people shouldn't become
40:06entrepreneurs. Um and how does one know
40:08if entrepreneurship in its broad
40:10definition is for them or not or like
40:12working in a company having you know
40:14having a great job is for them? It's
40:16funny. We were I was doing this show
40:18once and I said to the producer who was
40:20just off camera. I said, "Um, do you
40:23think I'm happy?" So, this is this is
40:25someone who gets to see who's has seen
40:26me for six or seven years behind the
40:28scenes every day since we're on my
40:29kitchen table. Has been there with me
40:31every corner of the world, the the best
40:32and the worst of times. I went, "Do you
40:34think I'm happy?" He went, "Yes." He
40:36said it quickly. And then he and then I
40:38said, "Would you want my life?" And he
40:40he couldn't have said no more violently.
40:42So much so that it was almost defensive.
40:44[laughter] He was like, "You're having"
40:45And then I do you want would you like my
40:46life? He goes, "No." And he was like,
40:49and and he was like laughing. He would
40:51not want my life, but at the same time
40:53thinks and believes having seen me
40:55behind the scenes for 7 years that I'm
40:56happy. And in there, I think you have
40:58something which is the the sort of
40:59subjectivity of of of journey like is
41:03this your journey? How does one know
41:05listening to this now if they should be
41:06an entrepreneur or not?
41:08>> So, I'll give a couple frames because
41:09decision-m is what probably both do with
41:11a lot of our time. So, one is what's the
41:13goal? what do I want to have happen?
41:14>> Everyone says the same things here. They
41:16say, you know, I want freedom to make my
41:17decisions. I want, you know, financial
41:18freedom.
41:19>> Then we have to be specific. And so,
41:20just like fear only exists in the
41:22specific, goals have to exist in the
41:24specific in order for them to be real
41:26and for you to make accurate decisions.
41:28>> Mhm.
41:29>> And this is why I'm so obsessive about
41:30language and like observables and things
41:32like that. So, what is one is what do I
41:34what do I actually want to have happen?
41:35And then number two, what does that
41:37change about my actual daily life? on
41:40this first point. Funnily enough, I said
41:42to you freedom
41:43>> and then I immediately realized that the
41:45least free person in the [laughter]
41:48>> dude this gets okay this is great. So I
41:50think about this it's the freedom to
41:52choose
41:53>> but I think people stop at freedom.
41:55There's this almost fetishization of
41:57independence and keeping your options
42:00open and m and options maxing right for
42:02your life. But all of the best parts of
42:05life come on the other side of
42:06exercising an option and and walking
42:09through a door. But in so doing, leaving
42:11the other doors that you could have
42:12walked through behind. And so the secret
42:15to getting a life you want is making a
42:17commitment. But you will not get all
42:19lives you want.
42:21And so at some point you have to sit at
42:23the precipice and you have to make a
42:25trade. And you have to say, I want this
42:26more than something else. That means I
42:29know I'm not going to get this and I
42:30choose to say that I want this more.
42:33And I think this is where people just
42:34sit at the crossroads. And that is what
42:36takes the majority of time. Not just
42:38getting into business, but also when
42:39you're in business, people will sit at
42:41the crossroads of like, what type of
42:42company do I want to build? What type of
42:43product? And what type what what type of
42:46business do I want? And we sit there and
42:48I when I see people get stuck, it's
42:50almost always unmade decisions because
42:52unmade decisions can last forever.
42:54>> Whereas if you're in if you're in a
42:56trial loop of feedback, feedback,
42:57feedback, like you'll figure it out,
42:59like you'll move. But if you're in an
43:01unmade decision, it could sit there
43:02forever. And that's that's like the
43:05freedom to choose. We have to choose.
43:08Are you seeing this sort of new
43:10generation that have grown up with all
43:12the tools to start their own business
43:14that we're in this personal brand era
43:16where everybody can make content and
43:18build a brand and then do like panel
43:19talks for a living or sell like ads on
43:21LinkedIn? Um,
43:23>> what what is going on here? this sort of
43:25younger generation under 30 now
43:29keeping their options open wanting
43:30freedom. If you compare that to say
43:32maybe my dad who you know one job did
43:36that career for 20 30 years of his love
43:3840 years of his life it's a very
43:40different world we're living in. There
43:41are more people starting businesses than
43:43ever before. I know since co there's
43:45there's at least in the US the stats
43:47that I looked at recently it's like
43:48there's been more new businesses per
43:50quarter. It's been growing really
43:51aggressively at least in the US and so
43:53more people are starting businesses. And
43:55so I think that lowering the cost of
43:57entry has gotten more people across the
43:58line. I think having more access to
44:00information has gotten more people
44:01across the line. But why aren't why
44:03isn't everyone going across the line? I
44:05think there's a couple things. One is to
44:08your point earlier, I don't think it is
44:09for everyone. And so I think the issue
44:12there is one of motivation. They have
44:14too many carrots, so good things keeping
44:18them in their current position and not
44:20enough sticks or bad things getting them
44:22out of their current position. And I
44:24think um I think it's a it's a Tony
44:26quote, Tony Robbins quote, which is uh
44:28the pain of staying the same has to be
44:29greater than the pain of change.
44:31>> And I [clears throat] think that
44:33when that happens and it could be the
44:35pleasure of change could be has to be
44:37greater than the pleasure of staying the
44:38same. E equal opposite, but I think most
44:40people are in that slice, there's pain
44:43and so you will change the moment it is
44:46more painful to stay the same. I've
44:48spent the last decade building and
44:49investing in companies and so often the
44:51conversation around marketing budgets
44:52follows the exact same pattern. The
44:54budget gets approved but then the
44:56results don't come back and most of the
44:57time the creative pitch and the offer is
45:00fine. The problem lies with the
45:02audience. Ads reach people who will
45:04never buy or refer nor do they have the
45:07power to sign off anything at all. And
45:09this is why so much budget gets wasted.
45:11LinkedIn Ads, who are sponsor of this
45:13podcast, lets you reach them
45:14specifically by job title, seniority,
45:17company size, industry, the skills that
45:20they have, and much more. You're no
45:22longer hoping your ad reaches the right
45:23person. Instead, you're defining exactly
45:26who sees it. And LinkedIn ads drives the
45:28highest B2B return on ad spend across
45:30all major ad networks. Give them a try
45:33at linkedin.com/diary.
45:36And if you spend $250 on your first
45:38campaign, you'll get a $250 credit for
45:41your next one just by going to
45:43linkedin.com/diary.
45:45Keep this to yourself. Terms and
45:46conditions apply. For the last couple
45:49years, I've been working on something
45:50that I realized every podcaster
45:51listening to this, but actually probably
45:53every creator listening to this might
45:55just need. Podcasting is difficult for
45:56many reasons. And one of them is that
45:58these hosting platforms don't give you
45:59much information. And also because
46:01they're so fragmented, you kind of have
46:02to go through every single platform,
46:04uploading it to YouTube, and then taking
46:06the same big old video file and
46:07uploading it to Spotify's platform. It
46:09takes huge amounts of time. And that
46:11friction means most of us don't do it.
46:13That is the problem we set out to solve.
46:15And so we built something called
46:16Flightcast, which you can find at
46:17flightcast.com. And today, Flightcast is
46:20also one of our show sponsors. And some
46:22of the world's biggest podcasters are
46:23now using our platform to run their
46:25shows because it gives you an edge. It
46:28saves you time. It gives you analytics
46:30most people won't typically get. It
46:32allows you to use AI to be more informed
46:34on your show and it has growth tools
46:37that other hosting platforms don't have.
46:39So podcasters that are using Flightcast
46:40have this unfair advantage. So go to
46:42flightcast.com/doac.
46:45Now do you think life rewards you
46:48somewhat proportional to the hardness of
46:51the problem that you solve?
46:53>> So I think um a hard problem doesn't
46:56necessarily guarantee that it is a
46:58valuable problem. Mhm. [clears throat]
46:59>> Like if you run a marathon very hard, it
47:00doesn't necessarily make you more money.
47:02So like there's lots of hard things that
47:03are out there that will not turn into
47:05monetization.
47:06>> The second thing is I think it depends
47:08on the size of your goals.
47:10>> And so if you want to be a millionaire,
47:12you do not need to solve a hard problem.
47:14You just need to do a little bit better
47:16than other businesses that are wildly
47:18underserving their customers, which I
47:19promise you there are plenty. You can
47:22just have a pool cleaning business that
47:23just cleans better than the other guy
47:24and like shows up on time and all you
47:26got to do is knock on doors and ask if
47:28they want to switch because their
47:29current company probably doesn't pay
47:31attention to them.
47:31>> One of the things that, you know, a lot
47:33of founders, entrepreneurs are thinking
47:34about at the moment is producing
47:35content.
47:36>> We're living in in in an interesting
47:38time where a kid in Mumbai or a kid in
47:39Manhattan can both produce content using
47:42LLM, uh, AI. They can produce videos.
47:44Theoretically, if you imagine any rate
47:46of improvement, they're going to be able
47:47to make videos, photos, churn out your
47:50quotes. They could use your quotes,
47:51change them a little bit, and have an
47:52agent post them for them. Where is the
47:55moat in content? Where you think about,
47:57if you think about supply demand
47:58dynamics, there's fixed demand. The
48:00Financial Times did a report saying that
48:02time spent on social media is starting
48:04to dip a little bit since 2022. For
48:06younger generations, for older
48:08generations, it's still sort of like
48:09going up or flat, but for Gen Z's, it's
48:11like starting to come down a little bit.
48:13So stagnant demand, tsunami slop coming
48:16in of AI content.
48:18>> Yeah.
48:18>> Huge supply shock. Every unit of content
48:21itself is going to become less valuable.
48:23Therefore, um and the algorithms are
48:25getting more violent or I should say are
48:27becoming more um someone with 10 million
48:29followers can get 2,000 likes. Back in
48:31my day, 15 years ago, when I started on
48:33social media, if you had a million
48:34followers, you got a million a million
48:35likes or a million views, should I say.
48:37What's the game of content in such a
48:39world? Everyone's everyone's making
48:40content now.
48:41>> To your point, what's the mode? Um,
48:43reality is the moat.
48:45>> Reality is the moat.
48:46>> I'd say the number one biggest business
48:48influencer I think on the planet is Elon
48:51Musk
48:52and he happens to own the biggest
48:54business on the planet be the richest
48:56man. Uh, Jeff Bezos, huge business
48:59influencer because he has Amazon. Warren
49:02Buffett probably the number one
49:04investing influencer. Like people fly
49:06around the world and when he when he
49:07talks, everyone listens.
49:09And so even if a teacher in De Moines
49:12Iowa word for word quotes Warren Buffett
49:15and let's do one better let's say makes
49:16even better advice than Warren Buffett
49:18does is still not going to get the same
49:20views because they just forgot to build
49:21Berkshire Hathaway and have a hundred
49:25years of track record. And so what I'm
49:28saying there is that when reality is the
49:30mode it means that your brand is the
49:31mode. It means your reputation is the
49:33mode which can only happen in reality.
49:34Now, that said, I do think it's going to
49:36affect different types of content
49:37differently. If you're in the world of
49:39making fictional whatever stuff, then
49:41yeah, I think it's going to hit I think
49:42AI is going to hit you much harder. But
49:44even then, there's still going to be the
49:45the standard holder. Somebody has to
49:48determine that this slop is too sloppy
49:50[laughter] and that you still have to
49:52work really hard to make the AI make
49:55exactly what you want and have it at the
49:57caliber that you want it to be at.
49:58>> Have you made any changes to your
50:00content because of everything that's
50:01going on with algorithms and AI? Yeah,
50:05I'm focused on only doing things that
50:06only I can do. [clears throat]
50:08>> Most people can't get hundreds of
50:11business owners to fly out in person
50:12every month that are all million-dollar
50:14plus business owners to seek advice on
50:18real business problems at 3 million, 5
50:21million, 10 million a year, 500k a year.
50:24Most people don't have that. And so I
50:26can demonstrate expertise in a live and
50:28interactive fashion, in a way that other
50:29people can't do. I think that live is
50:33something that I mean AI maybe in the
50:35future we'll have some AI avatars that
50:36can go live but at least in the short to
50:39medium term I think live is good. I
50:41think IRL as in like it's actually real
50:44people talking which is we talked about
50:45the scaler fail show that we just
50:47launched. It's real entrepreneurs and
50:49there's stakes [laughter] involved. I
50:51think that is something that is not
50:53going to be replaced. But if we think
50:55about content on this continuum all
50:58right let's make this continuum risk.
51:02When I say risk it's the risk that a
51:03consumer has in consuming the content
51:06and executing on it. And so if we
51:08differentiate entertainment and
51:09education is entertainment the point of
51:11the content is to be consumed. It's the
51:12only objective of entertainment. The
51:14point of education is to change
51:15behavior.
51:16>> Right? So that's our that's our split.
51:18Now entertainers will get hit harder
51:21than educators will.
51:23The entertainers that have stakes
51:25involved will be able to maintain that
51:27mode by still focusing on IRL real
51:29stakes real stories. Now in the
51:31education world of risk, let's put
51:34something that's really low stakes.
51:36There we go. So, we've got beauty on
51:38this side. If I have an AI influencer
51:41>> who does a makeup tutorial, I don't
51:43think the risk is super high that if,
51:45you know, if the tutorial is good that a
51:47girl's like going to not use the tip
51:50that they made in the thing. I think
51:51that's pretty likely.
51:53If you go maybe a little bit riskier,
51:56let's say I have some personal finance
51:57stuff. Well, what's the cred? So, the
51:59credibility in beauty is beauty.
52:03the credibility in personal finance is
52:05do you have personal finances? Right?
52:07So, who's the number one uh influencer
52:08in personal finance? My opinion, I think
52:10it's Dave Ramsey. He also happens to be
52:12I don't think he he calls himself this,
52:13but I think he's a billionaire. And he's
52:15got a massive I think he's public $300
52:17million a year of revenue that he's
52:19done. And I think there's some other
52:21newer newer age people. Uh I think
52:23Vivian 2 is is she's a personal finance
52:26person. I think um Erica Coberg touches
52:28in this. She's the legal legal gal. Um,
52:32anyways, all this to say, all of them
52:34have more credibility. Like, if you just
52:36start giving out tips on how to save
52:38money, there's no credibility. Reality,
52:40there's no reality. You have nothing to
52:42back it up.
52:42>> Mhm.
52:43>> Now, we keep moving further. Let's say
52:45business where if you make a wrong call,
52:47you could lose your business. Here, you
52:49lose some money. Here, you lose a bad
52:51day of makeup. So, the risk goes up. the
52:54riskier or the higher the consequences
52:56of being wrong, the more people are
52:58going to, I think, double down on
53:01credibility of source.
53:03>> What's interesting is I also heard as
53:04you were describing flying these 100
53:07business owners out to Vegas is I heard
53:11scarce, hard and scarce. And I still
53:13thought a lot about these two words as
53:15sort of the pillars of my own content
53:16strategy, which is
53:18>> with an LLM, yeah, a kid in Mumbai could
53:20churn out a video. Um, but the reason
53:23why we have, you know, somewhat of a
53:25moat here still is because it is hard to
53:28shoot on nine cameras. It is hard to
53:31bring Alex Hermosi here. It is hard to
53:34get Alex Hozi to say yes to doing this.
53:36[laughter] It is hard to get Michelle
53:37Obama or JD Vance to say yes to doing
53:38this. So, there's it's hard from a
53:40production perspective, but also from
53:41like to accomplish this is hard. And
53:44then what you described, I heard a lot
53:46of the like I heard hard and scarce. who
53:48can bring a hundred entrepreneurs to
53:50Vegas who are all successful in their
53:51own right and and have them ask you
53:53questions. So that's great content for
53:55us to watch. It's like really impossible
53:57to to
53:57>> very hard. If I had only had a $46
54:00million exit, I don't know if I would
54:01attract the number of entrepreneurs that
54:03that we do now. But now that we do 250
54:06plus schools, a billion dollar plus
54:08company, it's like I have credibility
54:10that the the the YouTube the content
54:14right is not like I we we I still do
54:17business.
54:18>> You know what I mean? We have chains of
54:19brick and mortar that that we're
54:20involved in. I just don't talk about it
54:21because it doesn't it's not relevant for
54:22most people.
54:23>> Let's look at the opposite then as well
54:24just to show people what the opposite of
54:26hard and scarce or of this approach is.
54:28What types of content should we all kind
54:30of stay away from now? So I think
54:33commoditize tips and tricks um when you
54:36have no again like proof is in the
54:38pudding reality is the moat. It's
54:40basically the opposite of that. So if
54:41you are posing if you are pretending if
54:43you have no proof um that you are good
54:45at this thing and again this is on the
54:46education side then there's a big I call
54:49the big uh wispy. Why should I listen to
54:51you? Right? Why should I listen to you?
54:54And if you can't answer that question
54:56for say a prospect, you know,
54:57prospective customer within the first
54:59like couple seconds,
55:00>> they'll just listen to somebody else
55:02because the reason that credibility
55:03matters so much is that it's actually
55:05lower effort to consume information from
55:07somebody who's an authority. And so if
55:09I'm if I'm listening to somebody who
55:10doesn't have proof and I'm listening to
55:11investing advice, I have to really think
55:13like, is this true? Does this make
55:14sense? If I'm listening to Warren
55:16Buffett, I don't have to think that. I'm
55:17like, I'm sure he's right. Now when
55:19someone's like, how do I get into this?
55:20You do what no one else can do. Well, if
55:22you are getting in, then document like
55:24document the proof of effort. So, you
55:27can do pro you can have proof of outcome
55:29just like what we do, right? What you
55:31do.
55:32>> But then there's when you're starting,
55:33there's proof of effort. Jimmy's first
55:34viral video is him counting to like a
55:36million. It's proof of effort. When you
55:39have nothing else, you have time. You
55:40have work. If you want to make if you
55:42want to say, "Hey, I want to I want to
55:43get into into sales stuff." It's like
55:45record your entire day of you selling.
55:48And then when you overcome something
55:49that's really good, that's real life
55:51with real stakes, clip the moment,
55:53right? And show yourself. It's like, I
55:55took 22 calls today. Let me tell you the
55:57best moment. I did a I did a 12-h hour
55:59day. In 3 minutes, I'll give you the
56:01best moments. It's like people want to
56:03deal.
56:04>> And so I think about that as a
56:05compression of time. And the reason that
56:06people listen to the people who are
56:08further ahead who've done all these
56:09things is because we can compress time.
56:11Mhm.
56:11>> You say, "Hey, you could try and figure
56:13this out on your own, but if I can
56:14compress 14 years of business advice
56:17into 37 minutes, that's a good deal." Do
56:20>> you know what it reminded me of? Seven
56:21or eight years ago when I used to have,
56:23you know, big clients, Uber, Coca-Cola,
56:24whatever around the world. Um, we used
56:26to do a lot of like social competition,
56:27social media competitions, and I used to
56:29have this mental framework for the
56:30perfect competition. And I I I remember
56:32the day that I when I first heard of you
56:34and you were coming on my show, and I
56:35was looking through some of your
56:36writings, and you almost had an
56:38identical framework.
56:39>> Yeah. So the the core so each of the
56:41books has one core concept and then it
56:44breaks down how to use it etc. But the
56:46value equation comes down to what's the
56:49outcome
56:51and some outcomes are worth more than
56:52others. If I can help you cut your hair
56:54versus I can get you to be in perfect
56:55shape. Perfect shape is worth more. If I
56:57can get you be a billionaire versus
56:59perfect shape, billionaire is worth
57:00more. Right. So we have outcome and then
57:03we have perceived likelihood of
57:04achievement.
57:06>> Perceived likelihood of achievement.
57:07Okay. So this is the Okay. Interesting.
57:09Yeah,
57:09>> it's the inverse of risk.
57:10>> Yeah.
57:11>> How likely do I think it is?
57:14And then we have on the downside of
57:15this, we have um time delay.
57:18[clears throat]
57:19How long is it going to take me to get
57:21the thing? And then we have effort.
57:26>> Is this sacrifice?
57:28>> Is this effort and sacrifice?
57:29>> No, different.
57:30>> Yeah. So effort is all the things that
57:32you have to begin to do as a result of a
57:35decision that you don't want to do.
57:37sacrifice all the good things that you
57:38have to stop doing as a result of a
57:40decision. So, if I get into fitness, I
57:42have to stop eating the stuff I like and
57:44I have to start eating stuff I don't
57:46like. I have to start waking up earlier,
57:47I can't sleep in as much. Uh, I have to
57:49be sore where I wasn't before.
57:52>> Um, and so that's my effort and
57:53sacrifice piece. The time delay is,
57:55okay, if I can get in shape in 3 minutes
57:56versus getting in shape in 3 months or 3
57:58years,
57:59>> okay,
58:00>> the outcome is am I getting in shape or
58:02am I being a billionaire? And then how
58:03likely is this to happen? Mhm.
58:05>> Because on some level, like if I buy a
58:06PDF of a fitness program for $19 or I
58:08pay $3,000 for a personal trainer to
58:11train me in person three times a week,
58:13my perceived likelihood of achievement
58:14of buying the PDF versus personal
58:15trainer is much higher.
58:16>> Mhm.
58:17>> Now, the effort and sacrifice is
58:19actually going to be relatively fixed.
58:20But this is the part that goes up. Now,
58:22the time delay if done right should also
58:24be fixed there. But this is what
58:25explains the difference in value on a
58:28product level. But the value equation
58:29works for everything. Just like just
58:30like consuming content. Yeah.
58:32>> What's my outcome? I think I'm going to
58:33learn some about investing. How
58:34likely is it that I think he can provide
58:36value or if I consume this? Pretty high.
58:38What's my time commitment of consuming
58:40this? If I'm going to watch a 4-hour
58:41video, fewer people do it than a
58:42three-minute video,
58:43>> right? And then um you don't really
58:45actually have to do any work when you're
58:46just purely consuming content. But if I
58:48wanted to take action as a result, then
58:50that's that's another part of it.
58:51>> But it's still going to cost me 20
58:52minutes, which is a sacrifice. I could
58:53be watching Netflix.
58:54>> That's true. I think if we're using
58:56consumption of media as the thing, the
58:58effort and the time delay basically, are
59:00we talking time delay to outcome? I'm
59:02going to be rich. Um or am I? Yeah, the
59:04time is always going to be a component.
59:06What's interesting is that having looked
59:07at a zillion different offers over my
59:09life and thinking about value. Um the
59:12one that I think is most slept on
59:15is this one.
59:16>> How quickly they can accomplish X
59:18outcome.
59:18>> If you want to get into a business and
59:20just completely disrupt it, do look at
59:21what everyone else is doing and do it
59:22half the time. You can do that in just
59:24about any business because there will
59:25always be someone who's willing to pay a
59:26premium for that.
59:27>> Goes back to what um Jeff Bezos said
59:29about betting on things that won't
59:30change.
59:32>> Yeah. that that like that his whole
59:33mantra around that has been one of my
59:35like I would say one of my true pillars
59:36of like how do I plan for the future.
59:38>> Give people context on that for those
59:39that haven't never heard Jeff talk about
59:40that and what that means.
59:41>> So he I think I saw it as an interview
59:44that he did and they said so given X Y
59:46and Z what do you think about the
59:47future? And he said you know I don't
59:49really think that much about what's
59:50going to change. He said I spent a lot
59:52more time trying to think what's not
59:53going to change and then we bet really
59:55heavily on those things. We believe that
59:57customers will prefer cheaper prices 10
59:59years from now just as much as they do
1:00:01now. We believe that customers will
1:00:03prefer more selection to less selection
1:00:0510 years from now as much as they do
1:00:06now. We believe that if customers can
1:00:08get something in two hours, they will
1:00:09value that more than if it takes them
1:00:10two days. We believe in that. We can bet
1:00:12in that. And so he just thinks about
1:00:14these elements. And if we're thinking
1:00:15about the like the value equation, how
1:00:18easy did they make buying? It's one
1:00:20click. How fast does it come? It's
1:00:21almost immediate. You have a history of
1:00:23buying from them. So, and this is also
1:00:25where the reviews come in. How likely is
1:00:27it? Well, if it's a fivestar with 5,000
1:00:29reviews, it's pretty high. If it's got a
1:00:30one and a half and it's got two reviews,
1:00:32I'm probably not going to buy it
1:00:33[laughter] even if it's the same product
1:00:35just because of our perception of it,
1:00:36>> right? And then the outcome is what I'm
1:00:38willing to do for the price, right? And
1:00:39I think about this time delay component
1:00:40because of one thing that kind of loops
1:00:42over the whole conversation at this
1:00:43point is that
1:00:44>> people will abstract the value of a
1:00:47positive future outcome to zero if it is
1:00:50long enough in the future.
1:00:51>> True. Even if it's guaranteed,
1:00:53>> you can guarantee that you will be rich
1:00:55if you invest, you know, $100 a week or
1:00:58$200 a week, whatever into into an index
1:01:01fund, right? Pretty much. And if you do
1:01:04that for 30, 40 years, you you will be
1:01:06fine.
1:01:08>> Because it's 30 or 40 years and because
1:01:10the latte is today, the discount
1:01:12basically takes it to zero. There's two
1:01:15lessons that I think that are really,
1:01:16really hard to learn. And I think um
1:01:18Williamson talks about this with like
1:01:19unlearnable or unteachable lessons,
1:01:21things like that. Lessons that are
1:01:22difficult to observe unless you go
1:01:24through them. One of my one of the guys
1:01:26who worked for me, he said, "You know, I
1:01:27consumed your content for, you know,
1:01:28years." He said, "But seeing you at the
1:01:32office at 4:00 a.m. every day when you
1:01:34don't need to do this at all." The
1:01:37consistency of it, he's like, "I I don't
1:01:39see that in the content. I mean, I I see
1:01:41the output of that." And one of the
1:01:43things with consistency is that you need
1:01:45to be consistent in order to witness
1:01:46consistency.
1:01:48Like you can't even you can't even
1:01:50observe cons like even if I did a time
1:01:52lapse that takes 10 seconds of me doing
1:01:54you still don't perceive it. So there's
1:01:56there's the consistency piece and I
1:01:58think the other one with with regards to
1:01:59the long-term component
1:02:01>> is patience.
1:02:03>> Yeah. Also to be to fair focus because
1:02:05um Shiron my partner says this. He says
1:02:08um people only see the choices you made
1:02:09not the options you had.
1:02:12And so you can't really witness focus.
1:02:15You just see winning.
1:02:17>> And so to the same degree with patience
1:02:20again, you only see the win. Like if you
1:02:22look at a marathon, people are there at
1:02:23the beginning, they're there at the end.
1:02:24No one's here in the middle.
1:02:25>> Yeah.
1:02:26>> Cuz it's the only fun part. The content
1:02:28of a marathon would be the the intro and
1:02:29the exit. Like you'd literally make it
1:02:30into a clip that's 30 seconds. It'd be
1:02:32like, yay. And then maybe a couple mile
1:02:34markers and it's like, wait, we
1:02:35compressed this. What a what a bargain.
1:02:36Great great return on time. You can't
1:02:38really witness patience unless you've
1:02:40literally followed it from the beginning
1:02:41which of course you'll have your OG
1:02:42people who are with you the beginning of
1:02:44Driver CEO and they've they've seen the
1:02:46patience start to play out but it's one
1:02:48of the things that like one of the the
1:02:49the ultimate gifts that I would hope and
1:02:51the equal opposite of this is Steve Win
1:02:53I think talked about how his the best
1:02:55thing in the world is that someone comes
1:02:56their first time to one of his casinos
1:02:58bets big and wins. It's the best thing
1:03:00ever. The worst thing that can happen is
1:03:02that the first time they come they lose
1:03:03their money cuz then they never gamble
1:03:04again. And so it's like they he wants
1:03:06that big reinforcing event up front
1:03:08because then you can become a gambling
1:03:09addict, right? And so to the same
1:03:11degree, my my hope for like my kid in
1:03:14the future or or anyone who's trying to
1:03:16start out is that they have something
1:03:19that happens in their life where they're
1:03:21rewarded for delaying the outcome and
1:03:24having a big jackpot as a result of the
1:03:26consistent effort where they they
1:03:27delayed the reward. M
1:03:30>> because as soon as you do learn that
1:03:31lesson, you see how big the big can be
1:03:34when you wait.
1:03:36>> Yeah, it goes back to what we were
1:03:38saying about long like long termism as a
1:03:41strategy. But also, yeah, like I only
1:03:44needed to look at that graph, the
1:03:45compounding returns graph once, actually
1:03:47looking at my own audience growth and
1:03:49seeing that I did a thousand posts on
1:03:50Instagram and reached 1,000 followers.
1:03:52And then in my last three, when I had
1:03:557,000 followers, I gained 300,000
1:03:57followers in three posts because
1:03:58carousels had dropped in Instagram was
1:04:00rewarding everybody for carousels back
1:04:02then. And me seeing that graph and then
1:04:04going, "Oh, it's slow then it's fast in
1:04:06success." And then starting the diia and
1:04:08for 3 years nobody listening.
1:04:10And then all of a sudden it was like it
1:04:11was just crazy. It just went a
1:04:12vertical line up and go, "Oh, it's the
1:04:14same Instagram graph I saw all those
1:04:15years ago." So actually, you know, it's
1:04:18slow then it's fast. But most people if
1:04:20you've never experienced slow, you
1:04:21think, "Oh, I'm inadequate. I up.
1:04:24I'm dumb."
1:04:25>> But you now you have that religion.
1:04:27>> Yeah. There are mistakes of picking the
1:04:29wrong path, but I think there are more
1:04:30mistakes of abandoning the right path.
1:04:33>> How would you how do you know though?
1:04:34>> So there's a handful of I think
1:04:36entrepreneur questions that are
1:04:37eternally unanswerable. Mh.
1:04:39>> Which is when do you push and when do
1:04:40you pivot?
1:04:41>> Like how much risk do I take on?
1:04:43>> Mhm.
1:04:43>> Like should should I consume or invest?
1:04:46Well, you don't know when you die.
1:04:48>> True.
1:04:49>> Right. And so with the push and pivot
1:04:50one, the best answer that I have to this
1:04:52because I I get this one a lot like,
1:04:54"Hey, it's really hard. Should I should
1:04:55I pivot the business, change it, or
1:04:56should I try and like push through?" My
1:04:58actual answer is if you had a
1:05:00fundamental assumption that you based
1:05:01the business on that has been proven
1:05:03untrue from your business activities, I
1:05:05think it makes sense to pivot. If none
1:05:08of your original thesis are incorrect,
1:05:10it's just not happening as fast as you
1:05:12want or as easily as you want, then you
1:05:14push.
1:05:15>> What's interesting is like the nature of
1:05:16being a founder as well on that is going
1:05:19earlier than the world. Like when you
1:05:21think about outside success, like
1:05:22everyone understands space now and
1:05:23they're like, "Oh, we can do reusable
1:05:25rockets now. We get it."
1:05:26>> But being being the first guy
1:05:28>> or the first woman um I think is really
1:05:30the essence of a founder. They go
1:05:32earlier than than the world's current
1:05:34available evidence. And thus there needs
1:05:36to be some kind of framework that you
1:05:38have. One of my frameworks which I've
1:05:40never articulated before and I don't
1:05:42even know if this is going to sound
1:05:43correct but it's just always guided me
1:05:45is um do I believe that I'm offering
1:05:49even a tiny group of people scarce
1:05:52value? So when I started the direo I was
1:05:55making Facebook videos with people like
1:05:57Ja. We we could get tens of millions of
1:05:58views on Facebook watch back then. No
1:06:00one was mentioning it. So, I remember
1:06:02this made this video about relationships
1:06:03that did 33 million views. Bad guy, no
1:06:05one would mention it. No one like no
1:06:06one. And then I started this podcast
1:06:08called The Dire in my bedroom. I got
1:06:10went to Apple, bought this microphone
1:06:11for $100, plugged it into Garage Band,
1:06:13tried to edit it myself, uploaded it,
1:06:15and like my two best friends, the look
1:06:17on their faces in the office, Ash and
1:06:19Oliver. When they listened to it, they
1:06:22had never reacted to me like that ever
1:06:24before for the Facebook videos I've
1:06:25made. And then when I didn't upload the
1:06:27next week, Oliver Yonv came to me and
1:06:29said, "When's the episode coming out?"
1:06:31For me, that that was it.
1:06:34>> Yeah.
1:06:34>> For me, I was like, I've done something
1:06:36here that's delivered scarce value to
1:06:37the world. So much so that one of my
1:06:38best friends who's very honest with me
1:06:39is asking me when the next one is. And
1:06:41so now I follow that. So when I'm
1:06:42thinking about the bets we make on the
1:06:44future, I'm obsessed about finding
1:06:45things that are delivering scarce value
1:06:47even if they're unscalable.
1:06:48>> I think you bring up a really good point
1:06:49about the unscalable part because so two
1:06:52two parts of this. But one is
1:06:55people will not do things. I see I see
1:06:57beginning entrepreneurs say they're
1:06:58like, "Well, that's not scalable." And
1:06:59I'm like, "You're broke.
1:07:01>> Yeah,
1:07:01>> you're broke. It's okay. You can you
1:07:03cannot be scal. You can just make money.
1:07:04That's okay." But it also assumes that
1:07:07your future self with more skills and
1:07:09more resources won't have the ability to
1:07:11figure out how to scale it.
1:07:12>> Yeah.
1:07:13>> And most things are like we're building
1:07:15cities in the middle of the
1:07:16ocean.
1:07:18If you're starting a business, and this
1:07:20is where you have to not sell out of
1:07:21your own wallet, is and that's the the
1:07:23nature of the offers book is start with
1:07:25the most absurdly valuable thing you
1:07:27possibly can. So, whatever price you
1:07:28want to charge, add one or two zeros to
1:07:30it. Okay? And it's like, that's crazy. I
1:07:32agree. Crazy. What would you have to do
1:07:35in order for that to be worth it? And
1:07:37then you list out all the things you I
1:07:39mean, well, if I was going to get
1:07:39somebody in shape, I' i'd probably go to
1:07:41their house. I would I would help them
1:07:42grocery shop. I would I would drive them
1:07:43to the gym and back from the gym to make
1:07:45sure that they actually did it. for 100
1:07:46grand, is it worth it? And they're like,
1:07:49well, it's not scalable. [laughter]
1:07:51>> It's like, well, you only need five.
1:07:53>> And I [clears throat] think when you're
1:07:54starting out, there's huge value in
1:07:56having unscalable services because one,
1:07:59you'll get better customers because
1:08:00you're going to be charging much more
1:08:01for something that's a little bit more
1:08:02premium. And the value of talking to
1:08:05people richer than you will do more for
1:08:07you than what you are doing for them.
1:08:09>> Mh. So like they will shift your
1:08:11worldview which is why like a lot of
1:08:12people like caddies who talk to all
1:08:13these millionaires when they're when
1:08:14they're playing golf it's like they
1:08:16learn so much from the people like how
1:08:17do you make your money like they learn
1:08:19so much worldview of oh I shouldn't be
1:08:21thinking this way I should be thinking
1:08:22like this. So one is you get that. The
1:08:24second is that you are able to practice
1:08:28the unscalable thing.
1:08:29>> Yeah.
1:08:30>> And then you can figure out how do I how
1:08:32do I take the scarce value okay this is
1:08:35not scalable. Fine. We can let's just
1:08:37say it's not scalable. Okay. Are there
1:08:39elements of this that are scalable that
1:08:41I now know because I've done it rather
1:08:43than because I thought about it because
1:08:45your thought experiments and I'd say for
1:08:47myself too are pretty terrible. Like our
1:08:49ability to predict the future is pretty
1:08:50god awful. And so we think we know what
1:08:52it's going to be like and we usually
1:08:54have no idea. [laughter] And so and so
1:08:57it's like go do it. You'll collect way
1:08:59richer data that no one else has done
1:09:00because it was unscalable. And then you
1:09:02can actually create something that's
1:09:03more scalable, that is unique because
1:09:05you actually went through it. And from a
1:09:07this is getting a little bit more
1:09:08businessy, but from a branding
1:09:10perspective, saying, "Hey, I have a
1:09:12handful of clients that pay me $2,000 a
1:09:14month to do this premium thing." For
1:09:16those of you who can't afford that, I
1:09:18now have this thing. You've already
1:09:20anchored high. They see you as the
1:09:22person on the hill because you deal with
1:09:23these unscalable, my private clients.
1:09:26And then you can have like you look at
1:09:27the Tesla model of start with the
1:09:29Roadster and then you have the Model S
1:09:31and then you work your way down to the
1:09:32masses. And so I'm a big believer in
1:09:35price as high as you can. Make the very
1:09:38premium thing first. Let that be high
1:09:40cash flow, high margin, low scalability
1:09:42so that you can then have the money to
1:09:44start working your way down
1:09:46>> to more people. Well, if I was to
1:09:48forensically analyze your business
1:09:51>> now, and then I brought in Alex who
1:09:53started that business on day one and I
1:09:55go, look at how unscalable all this
1:09:57stuff is that he's accomplished. I
1:09:59actually would make the case from what
1:10:00you were just saying that actually the
1:10:01essence of value creation in business is
1:10:04solving problems that didn't look
1:10:05scalable.
1:10:06>> I was just thinking about even the diio
1:10:08process here from the minute you leave
1:10:10like so right now the team in there that
1:10:11are doing the testing, they're actually
1:10:12making you a book as as we speak. They
1:10:14take they took photos of us while we
1:10:15were sat here. And when this interview
1:10:17ends, they're going to walk in and hand
1:10:18me the book. I'm going to sign it and
1:10:19pass it to you. That book is going to
1:10:20contain quotes from fans that loved our
1:10:22last conversation. They're currently
1:10:23printing them off on Polaroids. They're
1:10:24writing it. When this conversation is
1:10:26done, we're going to test your name 300
1:10:28times using ads to see how to introduce
1:10:29you. I know Alex is going to win cuz
1:10:31you're a big you're a big name now. But
1:10:33you think about when we started the
1:10:34podcast. Imagine me there with on Garage
1:10:36Band [laughter] with $100.
1:10:38>> That's not scalable.
1:10:39>> It's not scalable. I use this this this
1:10:42frame a lot which is that you are trying
1:10:44to solve tomorrow's problems with
1:10:46today's resources
1:10:48>> and it's a fallacy. It's ridiculous. You
1:10:50don't have the money. You don't have the
1:10:51skill. You don't have the connections.
1:10:52You don't have the resources. You don't
1:10:52have the experience and the track
1:10:54record. But future you will. But the
1:10:56hard part is future is a stranger.
1:10:58>> Mhm.
1:10:59>> And so I think we make a lot of this
1:11:00content to try and approximate as
1:11:02closely as possible to just pull the
1:11:04first step for someone to take to say
1:11:06believe like you will figure it out.
1:11:08Like as long as you do not quit, you'll
1:11:10win.
1:11:12Like you just have to not stop. That's
1:11:13basically it. You just have to not stop.
1:11:14As long as you get feedback and you take
1:11:16the feedback and you improve and you do
1:11:17that a long enough time horizon, you
1:11:19win.
1:11:19>> Let's be So just to be clear that you're
1:11:20not saying pursue a bad idea all the way
1:11:23and just never be stubborn about the
1:11:25pursuit of a bad idea. You're saying
1:11:27iterate your way.
1:11:28>> Yeah. We have to get feedback.
1:11:29>> Yeah. I mean, if you want to have a
1:11:31doggy skateboard and you pitch a hundred
1:11:34dog owners on the doggy skateboard and
1:11:36then none of them want it and you're
1:11:37like, "Well, I really believe in this
1:11:38doggy skateboard idea." And then you
1:11:40bring them the doggy skateboard and then
1:11:42they really still don't want it. You
1:11:44probably shouldn't sell doggy
1:11:44skateboards.
1:11:45>> So, you should quit the doggy skateboard
1:11:47business.
1:11:47>> Yes, but you shouldn't quit business.
1:11:48>> Okay. The other
1:11:49>> I think it's local versus global.
1:11:51>> Even [clears throat] if you just reframe
1:11:52failure in that way, it makes it way
1:11:53more palatable. Like you figuring it out
1:11:56is a lot of failures. I mean, how many
1:11:58failed episodes, failed headlines,
1:11:59packaging, you forgot to turn the mic on
1:12:02and did the whole I'm sure
1:12:03>> someone came and stole the hard
1:12:05drive with the audio on it. It's like
1:12:06[laughter]
1:12:07>> there's there's going to be hundred of
1:12:08those. But as long as it doesn't become
1:12:10a global failure of I'm no longer doing
1:12:12this, then you're good.
1:12:15>> One of the smartest things a business
1:12:16can do is build like a bigger company
1:12:19without actually hiring like one. But
1:12:22the problem we all face is that most
1:12:23companies don't have every skill in
1:12:25house. So when I look at the businesses
1:12:26seeing real success today, the
1:12:28consistent pattern with all of them is
1:12:30how quickly they move. They bring in
1:12:32specialists with skills in emerging
1:12:33areas to keep themselves ahead. Even in
1:12:35our company, we spent the last year
1:12:37pulling in talent across areas like AI
1:12:39native strategy, no code builds, and
1:12:42product workflows. And we find this
1:12:43talent through our longtime partner
1:12:44Fiverr Pro. Their premium service only
1:12:47shows you vetted talent. So you've
1:12:49always got the safeguard that anyone you
1:12:51pull in to help you with a complex
1:12:53project has the skills that you're after
1:12:55and will deliver to the same high
1:12:57standards as your internal team. And
1:12:59most importantly, they'll keep up with
1:13:00the pace. It's a simple strategy, but it
1:13:02lets us stay agile without compromising
1:13:04on quality. So if you need these kind of
1:13:05skills in your business, head to
1:13:06pro.fr.com to find pioneering talent to
1:13:09fill your business's gaps. That's
1:13:11pro.fr.com.
1:13:14One of the great fascinations I have and
1:13:15almost one of the unteachables is self I
1:13:17think it's self-awareness.
1:13:18>> Yeah. I say judgment. Yeah.
1:13:20>> Judgment again. Yeah. Because I have you
1:13:23ever had someone come up to you and say
1:13:25something grandio. They want to go to
1:13:26the moon. Let's say hypothetical and you
1:13:28look at them and you go you're not a
1:13:29spaceman. Do you know what I mean?
1:13:32[laughter] And how do you how do you
1:13:33what how do you then give them that
1:13:34advice which is like raise one
1:13:36self-awareness. Know what you're good at
1:13:37and what you're bad at. I think what
1:13:39people are trying to get at is a an
1:13:42understanding or more accurate
1:13:43understanding of base reality.
1:13:45>> And the people who are achieving the
1:13:47things that you want to achieve and you
1:13:48haven't been able to fundamentally if
1:13:50you're doing stuff and what you want to
1:13:52have happen is not happening your model
1:13:54of the world is either incorrect or the
1:13:56variables you have are incorrect.
1:13:57>> How did you cultivate a more accurate
1:13:59vision of reality?
1:14:01>> So I'm practice I'm a big believer in
1:14:04behaviorism.
1:14:04>> What's that? operant conditioning which
1:14:07is basically how you train machines how
1:14:09they figured out how to train AI which
1:14:10is reinforcement training is the exact
1:14:12same way you train humans
1:14:13>> okay
1:14:13>> and so when you see yourself as the
1:14:15subject that is being trained then we
1:14:19can make better predictions of will
1:14:21people buy will people take this offer
1:14:24let's say I've got a grandpa and he
1:14:27doesn't want to take his medicine and
1:14:29the medicine the doctor said was going
1:14:31to extend his life by 10 years okay the
1:14:34nurse is at home with me and she's going
1:14:36to try and give grandpa the the pill.
1:14:39And he says, "It tastes like I
1:14:41don't want to have it." He just brushes
1:14:42her away. She comes back, she throws her
1:14:45hands up and she's like, "You lead a
1:14:47horse to water, you can't make it
1:14:48drink." Right?
1:14:50>> The operationalist or the behaviorist
1:14:51would say, "No, you've made many other
1:14:54options the more likely option than
1:14:55taking the pill." And so what we need to
1:14:57do is make the pill the nicest and
1:14:59easiest option available to him. And so
1:15:02the first thing you would do is you'd
1:15:03crush the pill up. And then I would say,
1:15:05"Okay, let's put it in some lemonade.
1:15:06Put it in the in the fridge, make it ice
1:15:08cold.
1:15:09>> All right, I'm going to bring out some
1:15:10peanuts that are salty, and I'm going to
1:15:11put it in front of the grandpa,
1:15:13>> right? And then I'm going to come out
1:15:15with a, you know, a chess board or a
1:15:17back gammon board, and I'm going to sit
1:15:18in front of him, and set it all up and
1:15:19say, "Hey, I know you said you wanted to
1:15:21play back, and I've said no the last
1:15:22three weeks.
1:15:24Here's the lemonade. Do you want to
1:15:26play? If you finish the lemonade, we can
1:15:27play." How likely is it that grandpa now
1:15:31drinks the lemonade?
1:15:32>> Super high. But at the end of the day,
1:15:34we just we didn't persuade. We arranged
1:15:38the conditions to maximize the
1:15:40likelihood of the outcome that we
1:15:41wanted. What people miss is that the the
1:15:44amount of attack vectors that people who
1:15:47succeed approach a problem with is
1:15:50orders of magnitude greater than someone
1:15:52who is starting out. Is they're like, I
1:15:54talked to three people and that was it.
1:15:56And they said they didn't want it. And I
1:15:57I tell this this story because it was it
1:15:59was one of those big moments for me,
1:16:00which is I I had a mentor. He said, "You
1:16:03should put some flyers out." That's how
1:16:04he advertised. He had a big chain of 22
1:16:06locations. And I was like, "All right,
1:16:07I'll put some flyers out." I put 300
1:16:09out. Um, and then nothing happened. Uh,
1:16:12well, one person called and they said,
1:16:13"I digged his car." And then I was like,
1:16:16"Thank God." He didn't I didn't have any
1:16:17money. Um, so he called me up or I
1:16:19called him like a week or two later and
1:16:21he was like, "Oh, how'd the, you know,
1:16:22how' the flowers go?" And I was like, I
1:16:23was ready. I was, "I'm gonna show you."
1:16:25Yeah. I'm gonna show you. Dude, nothing
1:16:27happened, man. And he didn't even like I
1:16:29was like I was waiting for him to try
1:16:30and fight me. like, "Well, what was your
1:16:32test size?" I was like, "Hm."
1:16:36I was like, "I put out 300 flyers." And
1:16:40he was like, "Yeah, it's tough to know
1:16:41if anything works at 300." He's like,
1:16:43"We usually put out 5,000 um per test
1:16:46batch until we know it works." He said,
1:16:47"Then we do 3,000 a day after that." And
1:16:50so he was doing 150,000 flyers a month
1:16:53and I put out 300.
1:16:56And so as much as people don't think
1:16:58that like it's like work harder, it's
1:17:01the the volume of activity and output
1:17:04that people who are a hundred steps
1:17:06ahead of you really is often times 100
1:17:09times more. Now it seems unfathomable
1:17:10because you're looking at the top of the
1:17:11hill and like how do I get there? But
1:17:13you start by making one
1:17:14>> and then you learn through how painful
1:17:16the inefficiency is. Like when you're
1:17:18editing that you're doing the split test
1:17:19for the headlines 300 of them at a time.
1:17:21>> You learn because you're like this is so
1:17:23painful. It works but my god is it
1:17:24painful. that that is what motivates you
1:17:27because you want the payoff but you
1:17:28don't want the pain to figure out ways
1:17:30to make it more efficient. And then when
1:17:31it becomes efficient, you did the scarce
1:17:33work that no one else wants to do
1:17:34because no one even knows it works as
1:17:35well as it does.
1:17:36>> And then all of a sudden you have that
1:17:39um you have a scarce competitive
1:17:41advantage over everyone else.
1:17:43>> At the very top of that, I heard this
1:17:44idea of like doing and listening at the
1:17:46same time. And this sounds very simple.
1:17:48You're talking about reinforcement
1:17:49learning being the way that you tune
1:17:50yourself to reality. But you've even
1:17:52said yourself once upon a time you were
1:17:54doing a lot of listening books.
1:17:55>> You were reading and there wasn't much
1:17:57doing. Some people just do the doing and
1:17:58no listening.
1:17:59>> Yeah.
1:18:00>> And and so they don't tune. But this
1:18:01sort of like doing and then sort of
1:18:03reinforcement learning based on the
1:18:05outcomes is how one cultivates their
1:18:08self-awareness. That's actually the most
1:18:09accurate definition I've ever heard of
1:18:10like that's actually how you get more in
1:18:11tune with the world is through painful
1:18:14sometimes feedback
1:18:15>> data.
1:18:16>> And then the other thing I heard was you
1:18:17talking just about like just believing
1:18:19in human incentives.
1:18:20>> Yes. And and this like it it sounds like
1:18:22a [laughter] it took me 10 years to just
1:18:26s settle on the simple idea that humans
1:18:29don't really behave outside of their
1:18:30incentives unless they're psychopaths
1:18:32and that's like why they go to jail
1:18:34because they acted outside of social
1:18:35incentives. They like killed someone or
1:18:37something. Actually, when you think
1:18:38about team building or customers, the
1:18:40first question should be why aren't
1:18:41they? It's like what are the what what
1:18:43are the incentives in which they are
1:18:44making their decision? And you talked
1:18:46about that example there of giving
1:18:47someone the gamin board and some
1:18:49>> you're changing his incentives. Yeah, we
1:18:51just need to move the levers around. And
1:18:53so it's like if you're not selling well
1:18:54to get to a business situation. It's
1:18:56like you haven't made buying from you
1:18:58the most convenient, nicest option.
1:18:59>> It's such an important way to think like
1:19:01you offer someone a job and they say,
1:19:02"No, I don't want the job."
1:19:04>> You can think lots of things, but
1:19:05actually if you just reason it down to
1:19:07the the first principal incentives, what
1:19:10what was and you could it could be a
1:19:11seesaw like kind of like your value
1:19:12trade here.
1:19:14>> What did I offer them? Um what did it
1:19:16cost them?
1:19:17>> Yeah.
1:19:18>> And was that net positive? So I have
1:19:20this. So I write all my persuasion like
1:19:22this. This is this is how we do it. So
1:19:24we say uh plus plus minus uh minus plus
1:19:30minus minus. All right. This is the
1:19:32easiest way to write copy. The easiest
1:19:34way to think about marketing. If you do
1:19:36the thing, you get more good stuff.
1:19:40>> If you uh don't do the thing, you get
1:19:43more [snorts] bad stuff. Mhm.
1:19:46>> If you do the thing I want or so you
1:19:48don't do the thing, you get less good
1:19:50stuff. And if you do what I want, you
1:19:52get less bad stuff. And so this and this
1:19:57are our persuasion elements that we say
1:19:58to do the thing. But we also have to
1:20:00like call playing the don't, which is
1:20:02like, hey, also we have these situations
1:20:05of let's say that you don't sign up for
1:20:06my fitness program. Well, that means
1:20:09that you're not going to have these
1:20:10times with your kids in the future,
1:20:12right? more good less good stuff, right?
1:20:15You're going to have more health issues,
1:20:16more bad stuff.
1:20:18>> And the people who you care about, who
1:20:20you want approval from, aren't going to
1:20:22give you that approval that you so
1:20:23desperately yearn for. And so we just
1:20:25pingpong between these persuasive
1:20:28elements, but all they are is saying
1:20:30more good, less bad if you do the stuff
1:20:33I want.
1:20:33>> And as a as someone who employs hundreds
1:20:35of people now, this is kind of how I
1:20:36think about behavioral change in a group
1:20:38big group of people. You can you can
1:20:39stand in front of the team and say,
1:20:40"Hey, everybody adopt AI by the way,
1:20:41please. Please adopt AI. But their
1:20:44incentive structure is to do their job.
1:20:47>> Mhm.
1:20:48>> And have you read the innovators
1:20:49dilemma? It's one of my favorite books
1:20:50of all time on the subject of
1:20:51>> No, but I'm familiar with it.
1:20:52>> Talks to the same thing as well, which
1:20:53is just humans just act inside their
1:20:55incentive structure. Want to change
1:20:56humans, change their incentive
1:20:57structure. A lot of people who are
1:20:59delusional when they start out think
1:21:02that they're going to change people.
1:21:04>> And I think one of my favorite market I
1:21:06think Gary Halpert said this is a
1:21:07copywriter. Um he said we don't want to
1:21:11create demand. He said we want to
1:21:13channel it.
1:21:14>> It was just it just is such an
1:21:15interesting nuance. He's like that
1:21:16demand like the demand needs to be
1:21:18there. We just need to just carve a
1:21:20little bit of that river and point it
1:21:21towards us.
1:21:22>> And I think when you're thinking about
1:21:24for you with the show, the attention is
1:21:26there. The attention is being spent
1:21:28every second of every day from every
1:21:29human.
1:21:30>> And so we're not going to create
1:21:31attention.
1:21:32>> We're going to channel it. and we're
1:21:35going to make our option the nicest most
1:21:36most convenient option compared to
1:21:38alternatives. And then it's really just
1:21:40getting into the very gritty details of
1:21:42who I need to make this for. Then you
1:21:43get into avatars and subsegments and
1:21:45markets because what makes it attractive
1:21:47to one person might not make it
1:21:48attractive to another. And that is why
1:21:49probably one of the highest leverage
1:21:51decisions that you make with the
1:21:51business is who do I serve?
1:21:55>> Do you have to be intentional about that
1:21:56when you're starting a business or
1:21:57offering any product to anyone, whether
1:21:59it's content, do you have to at the
1:22:00start decide who it's for?
1:22:02>> Yes and no. which is a terrible answer,
1:22:04but to start, you just need to get
1:22:05anybody to give you money. You have then
1:22:07met the requisites for being an
1:22:09entrepreneur. You've accepted money from
1:22:10a stranger. Congratulations, you have a
1:22:11business. Most businesses that I
1:22:13encounter, especially in services,
1:22:15because it's 80% of at least in the US,
1:22:1778% of all businesses are service based.
1:22:19Typically, it starts with accepting all
1:22:20money from everyone cuz you're like,
1:22:22"Oh, I do podcast agency stuff." Oh, you
1:22:24have a Oh, you want to start a Yeah, I
1:22:26could help you, too. Like, because they
1:22:28have a pulse and a credit card, and one
1:22:29of those was the requirement for being a
1:22:30customer, right? [laughter]
1:22:33And so you you take what you can get,
1:22:35right? But you quickly realize that it
1:22:37becomes very difficult to scale that.
1:22:39And that's okay because you had to do
1:22:40what you need to do to survive and get
1:22:42started. And that's fine. But usually
1:22:44between 1 and 3 million, you have to
1:22:46make a decision where you say, "Hey, in
1:22:48order for me to scale this now that I
1:22:49have the resources and the experience
1:22:50and the skill, I can say these customers
1:22:53are easier to deal with and pay us more
1:22:55than these customers." Mhm.
1:22:56>> And if I didn't have to serve 10
1:22:58different types of customers and I only
1:23:00had to serve one type of customer, it
1:23:01would make the operations on the back
1:23:03way easier because I could start
1:23:04templatizing and start systematizing
1:23:05what our delivery is. And on the front
1:23:08end, if we're advertising people,
1:23:09instead of saying we do advert your
1:23:10podcast agency for everyone, we say we
1:23:12help doctors generate patients using
1:23:15podcasts.
1:23:16>> It's like, oh, all of a sudden the
1:23:18correct customer knows that this is for
1:23:20them, right? Okay. And so now we're
1:23:22attracting the right people and then
1:23:23those people are the ones that we
1:23:25already figured out through trial and
1:23:26error and feedback are worth the most.
1:23:28And then we have a more scalable product
1:23:30because we don't have to make 10 things
1:23:31for 10 people. We make one thing for 10
1:23:33people.
1:23:34>> Right? Cut once, sell twice, right? Sell
1:23:36twice. That's the idea. Not cut once,
1:23:38sell once.
1:23:39>> I almost hate this question, but I'm
1:23:40going to ask it anyway. Um, are there
1:23:42any obvious businesses that have emerged
1:23:46in your point of view because of what's
1:23:47going on in the world that a young
1:23:49person that wants to cut their teeth
1:23:50should probably be aiming at? 15 years
1:23:52ago for me, it was starting an agency. I
1:23:54think that opportunity is a little bit
1:23:55saturated now, if dare I say.
1:23:58>> I think that the nature of agencies has
1:24:00changed. I think you like if you want to
1:24:01do like a Reddit reputation management
1:24:04now, that's kind of a more emerging
1:24:05offer because Reddit's become a bigger
1:24:07and bigger platform and people look
1:24:08there. Like I think the the old school
1:24:10meta ad agency might be harder to crack
1:24:12into than some of the more newer
1:24:14opportunities that exist and clipping
1:24:15agencies things like like those things
1:24:17are still opportunities right now I
1:24:18think. So if we have beginner
1:24:20opportunities and then we have what I
1:24:22think are great opportunities that are
1:24:23let's just say non just AI because
1:24:24there's the obvious answer of like start
1:24:26an AI thing and automate for small
1:24:27businesses and yes you should absolutely
1:24:29do that and there's lots of money to be
1:24:30made there. Great. Okay.
1:24:32>> Outside of that what's not going to
1:24:33change? What can you bet on? I'm gonna
1:24:35bet that humans are going to want to
1:24:38still want to look beautiful in the
1:24:40future as they do now. I think people
1:24:43are going to want to stay young looking
1:24:45and so I think the longevity med spa
1:24:49look a certain way peptide all of that
1:24:51world is going to crush and is already
1:24:53crushing right now. there's a huge
1:24:55supply demand issue. Believe it or not,
1:24:56I think uh wealth um advisers I can
1:25:00because I see so many businesses and the
1:25:01ones I pay attention to are the people
1:25:02who are making more money than I think
1:25:04their skill level
1:25:05>> um would canote right would would would
1:25:08make sense for like on the flip side I
1:25:10say like if I see somebody who's who's
1:25:11doing $20 million a year as a restaurant
1:25:13I'm like bro you could probably do 200
1:25:15million a year in a different business.
1:25:17Um, I had a conversation with a gym
1:25:19owner that was doing $10 million a year
1:25:21and it was a service-based gym, not uh a
1:25:23facility elasticious gym, which is
1:25:24different. Like a crunch fitness is just
1:25:26like use the equipment, whatever. But a
1:25:28true service based gym, which is either
1:25:29personal training or semi-private
1:25:30training, really hard business to scale,
1:25:32easy to start, hard to scale. And he was
1:25:34like, "What do I think?" You know, what
1:25:34do you think the the opportunity is for
1:25:36me? I was like, "Honestly, dude, you
1:25:36could take your exact skill set because
1:25:38you've got 100 employees and you're
1:25:40trying to deliver an amazing experience,
1:25:42but with low skilled labor, you have to
1:25:44maintain culture. There's all of this
1:25:46stuff that you have to It's like if you
1:25:47took that same skill set and just
1:25:48applied it to a superior vehicle, you'd
1:25:51make more. Now, you might not want that
1:25:53and you might be happy with your
1:25:54existing business, which keep on just
1:25:55know that it's a harder it's a harder
1:25:57business. So, all that to say, I think
1:26:00wealth is a big bucket. Um, wealth
1:26:02related services are still crushing.
1:26:05Insurance risk is still going to exist
1:26:07in the future.
1:26:08>> Mhm.
1:26:08>> So, there's going to need to be
1:26:09insurance. People are going to to to
1:26:11fractionalize risk, which is what
1:26:12insurance functionally does. The
1:26:14longevity looking nice is one and then
1:26:17anything that's not cool has like a
1:26:19discount applied to it is always
1:26:20something that's very interesting to
1:26:22look at. It's kind of like trash. Like
1:26:24no one wants to be like a so what do you
1:26:25do? It's like I I'm in trash you like it
1:26:27just it doesn't have the same gravitas
1:26:29as I'm a doctor except that guy could be
1:26:30a billionaire, [laughter]
1:26:32right? And so if I look at like oh I I
1:26:35do you know I do waste management for
1:26:36old people like you know human fecal
1:26:39matter. It's like there someone's got to
1:26:40you know like someone's got to figure
1:26:41something out, right? And so those are
1:26:43the types of businesses where it's like
1:26:44look where no one wants to look. Look at
1:26:46look for things that people would not
1:26:47want to say at parties. There's usually
1:26:49big opportunities there if there's
1:26:51obviously money where I said owe people
1:26:53because right now it's so wealth is so
1:26:55concentrated on the I did my favorite
1:26:57video of the year. I I did this
1:26:59breakdown and because it was my favorite
1:27:01video I think it got like 300,000 views.
1:27:03But like [laughter]
1:27:04but what I did was really interesting is
1:27:06that I took wealth in the United States
1:27:08and I had a had it represent $100. 100%
1:27:10of wealth is $100. If you looked at it,
1:27:12right, and you had a circle for all, you
1:27:16know, 100 people at different
1:27:17percentiles, right, there's like $2 in
1:27:21the bottom 50th percentile.
1:27:23>> The bottom 50% of people has roughly
1:27:24$200
1:27:25>> of the hundred in wealth.
1:27:26>> Wow.
1:27:27>> It's crazy. And then you've got your
1:27:28next 40 and I think that was like $27,
1:27:33something like that. Then you have your
1:27:35next 9% which has like $36.
1:27:39And then the top 1% has 31.
1:27:43Hopefully the math maths, but it's
1:27:44somewhere somewhere in the neighborhood.
1:27:45And so when you look at that division
1:27:48and then you're like, who should I
1:27:49serve?
1:27:51Many people who are starting out are
1:27:53here and the only people they see are
1:27:57here. And so their view of the world is
1:28:00not accurate.
1:28:02And this is why they stay broke because
1:28:05they try to sell to other people who
1:28:06have no money and then assume that no
1:28:08one has money.
1:28:11>> The [snorts] interesting thing I noticed
1:28:12and I think anybody that's ran a service
1:28:14business will be able to relate.
1:28:16>> Yeah.
1:28:16>> Is when I started out I was selling to
1:28:19startup founders who had an app idea
1:28:21whose marketing budget was approximately
1:28:23$10,000 and I was asking for $10,000
1:28:25>> per year. [laughter]
1:28:28>> And they were watching me. They were
1:28:30counting every download they got on
1:28:31their apps. And slowly we managed to
1:28:33move up. And the remarkable thing is,
1:28:35this is a crazy thing to say, but it was
1:28:37easier from a client management or a
1:28:39client account management perspective to
1:28:41deal with Coca-Cola than it was Dave
1:28:43with his dating app idea. Coca-Cola, who
1:28:46would give you potentially six figures
1:28:48in budgets, um would would be a little
1:28:50bit more casual than Dave with his
1:28:53dating app idea where he'd put his
1:28:54mortgage on the line. [laughter] But
1:28:56it's not it's not easy to move up
1:28:58because to get that meeting with
1:28:59Coca-Cola to be able to present to them,
1:29:01you got to earn it somehow.
1:29:03>> So, it's all well good saying it, but
1:29:04the reality of getting up there is they
1:29:06they think more about credibility, track
1:29:08record. They'll they'll work with people
1:29:10who are highly credible and who who they
1:29:12can see a reality behind.
1:29:14>> And so, it's not there's nothing wrong
1:29:16with starting to sell the friends and
1:29:17family. But the the goal, again, that's
1:29:19if your goal is to make more money with
1:29:20the business should be to move up
1:29:22market. And if you look, so this is kind
1:29:24of interesting, something I've noticed.
1:29:28>> If you look at the price of a service,
1:29:30and this is specifically for service
1:29:31businesses,
1:29:33>> the price of the service almost has a
1:29:35one to one correlation with how advanced
1:29:37the business and business owner are
1:29:40>> just as a forcing function because in
1:29:43order to go up in price, like a service
1:29:46business done well means you did a good
1:29:48job. You have more demand than you have
1:29:49supply. And so what do you do when
1:29:51supply and demand crisscross? You go up
1:29:53in price. And so you continue this loop.
1:29:55And as long as you continue to deliver
1:29:57more value than you're charging for, you
1:29:59continue to have more demand. And you
1:30:00just keep lading up. And this is why
1:30:02price is such a strong signal for value.
1:30:04Which why when you're starting out, it's
1:30:06hard to hear us say, "Hey, add a zero to
1:30:08your price tag. Add two zeros to your
1:30:09price tag." Because if someone comes to
1:30:11me and says, "Hey, I want to do all of
1:30:12your social media management for $2,000
1:30:14a month." I'm like, "Dude, you can't
1:30:15even handle me."
1:30:16>> Like you could like even if I said yes,
1:30:18you can't. it. The math doesn't math.
1:30:20There's no way you can do it. And so if
1:30:22someone comes to me like the minimum I'm
1:30:24probably going to be willing to spend is
1:30:25I don't know 15,000 a month for a
1:30:27vendor. Like the minimum I could really
1:30:28possibly and it' be probably a smaller
1:30:30shop and I know the founder is probably
1:30:32still integally involved. I'm fine with
1:30:33that cuz I'm okay with some founders
1:30:34like being good and basically me seeing
1:30:36them as a fractional employee that I'm
1:30:37paying less and that works fine. All
1:30:38that to say like you want to have your
1:30:41price go up. One because you serve
1:30:42better customers, two because you have
1:30:43better margins. Three because there'll
1:30:45be less headache and four because it's a
1:30:46signal of how good you are at what you
1:30:47do. And the best businesses and business
1:30:49owners will know, oh, this is for me.
1:30:52You signal to them that you like you
1:30:54want to go out market, but you have low
1:30:56market prices. There's um there's
1:30:57something called the Van Wesson door
1:30:58pricing analysis. You might have heard
1:30:59of it. It's from the 1970s. I do this
1:31:01most times when I launch a new offering.
1:31:02And so there's four questions you ask.
1:31:04Number one, at what price would this be
1:31:05so expensive that you wouldn't even
1:31:07consider it?
1:31:07>> Mhm.
1:31:08>> Number two, at what price would this be
1:31:10so cheap that it would be impossible
1:31:12that it would be able to be valuable? It
1:31:13it'd be too cheap. At what price would
1:31:15it be right at the edge? you'd have to
1:31:17really consider it, but you'd end up
1:31:18buying it. And then at what price would
1:31:20it be a bargain, a good deal? And so
1:31:22when you actually take a scatter plot to
1:31:24this, and now I have to I used to have
1:31:25to do these manually. Now you can
1:31:27literally just take the data and put it
1:31:28right into AI and say, "Hey, run a van
1:31:29western drug analysis on this, which is
1:31:30amazing." So you can get it in six
1:31:32minutes. Um, and so you get these
1:31:34there's four points on the graph
1:31:37if you have the scattered dots. And so
1:31:39you have the point of marginal cheapness
1:31:42which is basically beyond this point the
1:31:44majority more people will think it's too
1:31:46cheap to be believable.
1:31:47>> Okay. And above this price it's too
1:31:50expensive to be considerable.
1:31:52And so what you can find is you can do
1:31:54area under the curve to see at what
1:31:56price would I make the most money if I
1:31:58had a higher friction sales process.
1:32:00>> Mhm. [clears throat]
1:32:00>> And if I wanted people to simply
1:32:02purchase it. So if I wanted to have an
1:32:03automated sales process where my range
1:32:05is. And so there's a range in there
1:32:07where it says, "Okay, right here is the
1:32:08point where you'll make the most number
1:32:10of sales." Now, you'd have to factor in
1:32:11margin, like gross margins of the
1:32:12product. But you can guess like this is
1:32:14how when you want to launch a shampoo,
1:32:17this is how they do it. And so we can
1:32:20price it precisely.
1:32:22>> Is it a bell curve or is it
1:32:24>> Oh, yeah.
1:32:25>> So is it like a
1:32:26>> Yeah, but sometimes it's so
1:32:28interestingly sometimes you have double
1:32:29gaussians that'll happen
1:32:31>> because it's different customers. So
1:32:33when so when I run these, I ask those
1:32:35four questions, but I also ask for the
1:32:37customer stats. So then I can slice it
1:32:39by saying, what do the rich customers
1:32:41think? What's the pricing curve for
1:32:42them? What's the pricing curve for poor
1:32:44customers? What's the pricing curve for
1:32:45home services? What's the pricing curve
1:32:46for? And so then you can get really
1:32:48really accurate with initial pricing.
1:32:51Of all the ideas that you've put out
1:32:53into the world, what are the the sort of
1:32:54headline ideas or questions that you
1:32:57found to be most compelling to people?
1:33:00Almost all the core concepts in this
1:33:01book come down to figuring out who you
1:33:04want to sell, what you want to sell
1:33:06them, and how to get them to buy.
1:33:12And most of my content focuses more on
1:33:14acquisitions since the vast majority of
1:33:16small businesses, say 1 to 50 million,
1:33:19>> not always, um, but I'd say 70% of
1:33:22businesses, this is rough estimates,
1:33:23that come through our doors are demand
1:33:25constraint. They could use more
1:33:26customers than they than they have. 30%
1:33:29are supply constrained. The phone's
1:33:31ringing, but they just don't have enough
1:33:32account reps. They don't have enough
1:33:34technicians, whatever it is. And so,
1:33:36what's really interesting about this all
1:33:38of these books when taken in aggregate
1:33:40is that
1:33:42every problem is a marketing problem.
1:33:45And I'll and I'll sell you on this idea.
1:33:47So, if we were to think about a business
1:33:49as okay, we've got lead genen, right, as
1:33:52activity number one. We've got nurture
1:33:56as number two. We've got sales,
1:33:59uh, we've got, uh, onboarding, and then
1:34:02we've got retention,
1:34:04ascension, right? Getting them to keep
1:34:06paying and getting them to buy more
1:34:09Now, this is the demand side for
1:34:11customers, right? Everyone hopefully
1:34:12everyone's kind of aligned with that.
1:34:14Now, if you're supply constrained,
1:34:16>> which means
1:34:17>> which means that you uh have more
1:34:19customers than you can handle, more
1:34:20people are interested in your stuff.
1:34:21Let's say you're the solarreneur and
1:34:22you're like, "How do I like there's only
1:34:24one of me, what do I do?" like you're
1:34:26supply constrainted. If you had
1:34:27unlimited view, you you could make more
1:34:29money, right? So, what's the equivalent
1:34:32version of this? On the supply side, you
1:34:34have application generation and then you
1:34:36have application nurture.
1:34:39>> What does that mean, application
1:34:40nurture?
1:34:41>> Basically, we're working these leads.
1:34:43Yeah, we have these applicants. We need
1:34:44to get them scheduled. We need to get
1:34:45them booked. We need to make sure that
1:34:47they're not getting lost in the process,
1:34:48you know, like how how quickly can we
1:34:49line these interviews up, all that,
1:34:50right? We have the interviews
1:34:52themselves, which is the sale, right?
1:34:56And then we have onboarding like you do
1:34:58for a new employee. And then you have
1:35:00retention. And then the ascension is
1:35:03they're grow they're going up, right?
1:35:04Are are they are they are they moving
1:35:05up? Which means that you just treat
1:35:07humans the way you treat humans in a
1:35:09pipeline in a business. And so if you
1:35:12have a demand problem, but you know how
1:35:15to get employees, then do the stuff that
1:35:18you get to get employees to get more
1:35:20customers. If you know how to get
1:35:22customers, but you don't know how to get
1:35:24employees, use the exact same process,
1:35:26which means
1:35:28who's writing the copy for your your ads
1:35:31and your promotions and your outreach
1:35:32temps. Well, somebody probably should
1:35:34take a look at if you haven't looked at
1:35:35this, by the way, and you're a slightly
1:35:37bigger business owner, you will be
1:35:38horrified by the outbound messages that
1:35:40are getting sent on your behalf to
1:35:41people. You'll be horrified by the job
1:35:43postings that your company is putting.
1:35:45You're like, "No one would respond to
1:35:46this. How would you think this would
1:35:48work?"
1:35:48>> Very funny. From a nurture perspective,
1:35:50the leads aren't getting worked. No
1:35:52one's following up. We're not giving
1:35:54them any materials to sell them on our
1:35:57just like you would with a prospect.
1:35:58Like, why don't we have case studies?
1:36:00Why don't we have a video sales letter
1:36:02that tells tells the whole business? So,
1:36:04every person who comes to
1:36:05acquisition.com watches a VSSL for me
1:36:06and it's a 13-minute thing of just like
1:36:09here's how the business works and it's
1:36:11this is our real estate arm. This is
1:36:12like and it shows everything and like
1:36:13I'm giving proof and this is John and
1:36:15John's an employee and John loves it
1:36:16here, you know, whatever. And so then in
1:36:18the interview itself, it's like, do you
1:36:20have a script? Well, you have a sales
1:36:21script. Why would you not have an
1:36:22interview script?
1:36:23>> Mhm. [clears throat]
1:36:24>> Pre-anned questions. Do we roleplay
1:36:25this? Well, we roleplay this. Isn't this
1:36:28just as important, if not more
1:36:29important? Is there more leverage on
1:36:30getting one 10 out of 10 talent person
1:36:32than just one customer? Yeah. On the
1:36:35onboarding, are we just do we have any
1:36:36process? Do we have 30 6090 of what
1:36:38what's going to happen over the next 30
1:36:4060 90 days and what is required for them
1:36:42and what information they need to
1:36:44consume so they can become proficient?
1:36:46And then once they are onboarded,
1:36:48what's their what's their career path
1:36:50look like? How do they like one of my
1:36:52favorite questions is when I have
1:36:53somebody I really like, um I say, "What
1:36:55would it take for you to work here
1:36:56forever?
1:36:57What would it take? Just tell me what it
1:36:59would take." I can say, "No, just tell
1:37:01me what it would take." And then I can
1:37:02start moving the pieces around to figure
1:37:04out how I can get this person to stay
1:37:05forever. But the same thing happens if I
1:37:08have a a customer that I like a lot
1:37:09like, "What would it take for us to be
1:37:10your your sole provider forever?" Mhm.
1:37:12>> Especially this because I know you have
1:37:13more enterprise experience sometimes
1:37:14saying, "Hey, let me be the sole
1:37:16provider. Let's get let's go exclusive.
1:37:18>> Let's lock in a three-year contract and
1:37:20I'll give you these other things for
1:37:21free if we lock it in."
1:37:22>> And I'll never work with
1:37:23>> Yeah. these three competitors. Yeah. And
1:37:25so almost all problems in business can
1:37:28be solved by more people finding out
1:37:29about your stuff either to work for you
1:37:31or to buy from you,
1:37:33[clears throat]
1:37:34>> which also means that you probably have
1:37:36ongoing marketing to your customers. You
1:37:39think there shouldn't be ongoing
1:37:40marketing to your team and employees. Do
1:37:42we want our customers to give us
1:37:43referrals? Yeah. Do we want our
1:37:44employees to give us referrals? Do we
1:37:46have a incentive for people to bring
1:37:48referrals? There's a great story. A
1:37:50friend of a friend had a had a $10
1:37:53millionish dollar a year business. He
1:37:54talked to somebody in the exact same
1:37:55space as him uh who was way further
1:37:57ahead. And he uh he was in business that
1:38:00had like agents uh that work from like
1:38:02kind of like a brokerage. And the mentor
1:38:04told him, "So, what's the incentive that
1:38:05you have for your agents to bring more
1:38:07agents?" He's like, "Oh, I you know, I
1:38:09pay him 500 bucks if they bring a new
1:38:10agent on." He was like, "Okay, what do
1:38:12you make on a productive agent per year
1:38:14in gross profit?" He was 250,000 a year.
1:38:17Productive agent, gross profit. He's
1:38:20like, "So, you're only willing to spend
1:38:22$500 to make 250,000?"
1:38:26He's like, "What would you spend for
1:38:27250,000?" He was like, "I mean, I don't
1:38:29know, 50 grand." He's like, "Yeah, so
1:38:31why don't you make your incentive 25 to
1:38:34start?" So he took his incentive from
1:38:36$500 for referral to 25,000
1:38:39and he took his company from 10 million
1:38:41to 400 million.
1:38:42>> Yeah, it's crazy. [laughter] I think
1:38:44about this a lot. Even with like
1:38:45recruiting, like people like, "Oh, head
1:38:47hunters cost a lot of money." I'm like,
1:38:48"Fucking hell." For really exceptional
1:38:50talent, it's almost it's always a deal.
1:38:53It's always a great deal. Going back in
1:38:55time, if I were to give the the like
1:38:57what has changed about uh me then versus
1:38:59me now is that my standards for talent
1:39:02are significantly higher and my
1:39:04tolerance for letting someone be
1:39:05mediocre and stay are lower. I think
1:39:09probably all the entrepreneurs I've ever
1:39:11interviewed would say that exact thing.
1:39:12I remember one particular entrepreneur
1:39:14who's built 100 billion dollar business
1:39:16publicly listed. He said, "At 20, I
1:39:18thought hiring mattered. At 30, I
1:39:19thought it was kind of important. At 40,
1:39:21I've realized it's the single most
1:39:22important thing." and this is a guy
1:39:24that's built hundred billion dollar
1:39:25publicly traded company and I was like
1:39:27but it's funny because that's what all
1:39:29of them say.
1:39:29>> Yeah. But I this is a broader
1:39:31relationship advice lesson which is just
1:39:33the best and worst decisions you'll make
1:39:34in your life are people and I mean I
1:39:35look at I look at some of these things
1:39:37here and I go I mean it's true for you.
1:39:40>> Yeah, I know right.
1:39:42>> This is a photo of your lovely wife.
1:39:43>> Nugget Zone.
1:39:44>> You think about the variance of your
1:39:46outcome if you had chosen someone else.
1:39:48>> I do think about that. I do think about
1:39:49that. It's
1:39:53probably the single best financial
1:39:55decision that I ever made was marrying
1:39:57Ila
1:39:59because
1:40:01and this is this is no shade to any any
1:40:03any relationship that exists of mine or
1:40:06anyone's you know people optimize for
1:40:08different things and I'm not saying I
1:40:09optimize for finances. I'm saying, but
1:40:10within that lens,
1:40:14she was just down and she believed in me
1:40:19a lot of times more than I believed in
1:40:21myself. And I think I think that's all
1:40:25anyone really wants or at least for me
1:40:27that I that I wanted was and the thing
1:40:30is is that hasn't stopped as the stakes
1:40:32have gotten higher. I remember there was
1:40:34this business that I was that I was
1:40:36working with and I was going to meet
1:40:37with the whole team and I was like this
1:40:38is like a really tough problem that
1:40:40they're asking me to help with and I was
1:40:42like and she just like cut me off and
1:40:44she's like good thing you're the best at
1:40:45it and that you're going to give them
1:40:46more help than anyone else could and
1:40:48it's just like whether that's true or
1:40:51not it was exactly what I needed to hear
1:40:53in that moment. And so I I also say this
1:40:56to people who are starting out is just
1:40:57like I I do not have perfect
1:41:01um self-security. You know what I mean?
1:41:03Like I wouldn't say it's imposter
1:41:05syndrome cuz that's not true. But like I
1:41:07have doubts of like I don't know if I'm
1:41:08going to be able to solve this. I mean I
1:41:10hope I am and I keep working on it but
1:41:11like I don't know
1:41:13>> and as the the problems become more
1:41:15complex and have higher stakes, it's
1:41:17like this is harder and will cost more
1:41:19if I fail. Um the pressure feels the
1:41:22same. I would say the only difference is
1:41:23that we have more resources to to to
1:41:26handle them. Mhm.
1:41:27>> And so in a lot of ways, when you're
1:41:29starting out, it's kind of like fighting
1:41:32a bear with your bare hands, but when
1:41:34you're further down, it's like trying to
1:41:37slay a dragon, but at least you have an
1:41:38army.
1:41:39>> Mhm.
1:41:39>> And [clears throat] so the foe is
1:41:41bigger, but your resources are bigger,
1:41:43too. And in some ways, it's almost
1:41:45easier later than it is when you start.
1:41:48But you only earn the right to face
1:41:50those foes by going through the earlier
1:41:53stages when you didn't have the
1:41:55resources because you learn the grit,
1:41:56you learn the scrappiness. And I think
1:41:58that like it's a it's a right of passage
1:42:01and Ila was willing to go allin and I
1:42:04would say that like if anything kind of
1:42:06like a jockey bet u for VCs like you bet
1:42:09on the horse not the jock or sorry the
1:42:10jockey not the horse. when she saw me, I
1:42:13had, you know, a handful of gyms and it
1:42:15wasn't like I'm Alex Herozi the, you
1:42:17know, whatever I am now. I was just a
1:42:19gym owner and I was 26 and I worked
1:42:21really hard and she was like, I don't
1:42:24know where we're going to go, but I know
1:42:26Alex is going to work tirelessly to get
1:42:28there and she just always believed. And
1:42:31I think that if like I think the person
1:42:32that you were married is either going to
1:42:34increase the likelihood that you hit
1:42:35your goals or decrease and you just need
1:42:38to decide whether that's important to
1:42:41you
1:42:42>> if you were single.
1:42:43>> Yeah.
1:42:43>> Do you think you would be as successful
1:42:46as you are now?
1:42:47>> I wouldn't be as successful because
1:42:50number one, there have been plenty of
1:42:51moments cuz I don't struggle with
1:42:53anxiety. I struggle with apathy. Um not
1:42:56caring. Why do I even bother doing this?
1:42:58We already have enough money. Who cares?
1:43:00Ila in a lot of ways has bigger dreams
1:43:03than I do. Um I have [clears throat]
1:43:05always had big goals for finances, but
1:43:07at a certain point um and I think I hit
1:43:09this kind of like last year for me,
1:43:10which is weird because I always like
1:43:12people always like when is enough
1:43:13enough? And it's kind of like working
1:43:16out. Um I got to a point where I was
1:43:17like almost 250 and lean and I was like
1:43:21this is more than enough. I I'm going to
1:43:22come back down. [laughter] And so I've
1:43:24had bigger goals than most people for my
1:43:26fitness or muscles or whatever. Um, I've
1:43:28had bigger goals than most people for
1:43:30money, but I also was like at that point
1:43:32when I hit it, I was like, I think this
1:43:34is enough for me. And Leila was like, it
1:43:36was never about the money for me. It
1:43:38never was. And I think that's why our
1:43:40dynamic worked really well. But she's
1:43:42always cared about the team um, more
1:43:45than anything. And she's like, I her
1:43:47dream when she and I met was to build a
1:43:49place that people love to come to work.
1:43:52And if you do that and it also has a
1:43:54good business model behind it, marketing
1:43:56and sales and pricing and all this other
1:43:57stuff, it's like you end up making a lot
1:43:58of money.
1:43:59>> But I would have probably taken my foot
1:44:01off the gas earlier if it hadn't been
1:44:04for Ila. I think I would have struggled
1:44:06more operationally. Uh because Ila is
1:44:09Ila will never get the credit that she
1:44:11deserves. Um but Ila is Ila is the is
1:44:14the pure is a pure operator. like
1:44:16unbelievable leader that talent that I
1:44:19probably wouldn't have been able to
1:44:20either get or keep stay because of her.
1:44:23Like I think that if there was like a a
1:44:25divorce in the business, I think the
1:44:27vast majority of people would [laughter]
1:44:30>> I'm serious. Like I I know I like
1:44:32self-awareness. I people know what I'm
1:44:34good at
1:44:35>> and I know people are loyal to Ila
1:44:40>> because she's just there for people. Um,
1:44:43and so for those reasons, I don't think
1:44:44I would have I don't think I would have
1:44:45kept my foot on the gas. Um, I don't
1:44:47think I would have been able to operate
1:44:48nearly as complex of a business as we
1:44:50currently have. And on the inevitable
1:44:51like troughs of my motivation, she was
1:44:54the one who kind of carried me.
1:44:57>> A lot of people be listening now and
1:44:59they might be listening with their
1:45:00partner, maybe they're listening alone,
1:45:02and they're thinking, you know, my
1:45:03partner isn't all that supportive of me.
1:45:06And dare I say, some people will be
1:45:07listening now and think their partner is
1:45:09actually against
1:45:10>> Yeah. their ambition.
1:45:14What do you say to those people?
1:45:16Figure out what you want. Like, we have
1:45:19to make trades. How do you Do you know
1:45:21what? It's tricky because
1:45:25some of those people might say, "Right,
1:45:26it. I'm going to dump her or him."
1:45:28>> And then they pursue the business for 2,
1:45:30three years. They become successful and
1:45:32they're lonely as hell
1:45:33>> and they look back and go, "Do you know
1:45:35what? That was actually my insecurity
1:45:37and my shame that drove me to do this.
1:45:39But I've I've now I've got the mansion
1:45:41and I'm here alone. I should have she
1:45:42was a good girl. He was a good guy.
1:45:46>> I speak only from the pers perspective
1:45:48of how do you align the conditions to
1:45:51maximize the the business outcome.
1:45:53That's where I come from in terms of how
1:45:55I'm speaking about this in terms of
1:45:57maximizing subjective well-being and
1:45:59your happiness. Um those factors are
1:46:02completely different. And so I think
1:46:04Arthur Brooks has this just this amazing
1:46:06visual example that I love, which is
1:46:08imagine two scenarios. One of them is
1:46:10that you drive your brand new Ferrari to
1:46:12a three-star Michelin restaurant. Um,
1:46:15and you have the corner corner booth
1:46:17eating the best food in the world
1:46:18looking out of view alone or piling into
1:46:22your beat up, you know, Camry, uh, going
1:46:24to a Denny's with your five best
1:46:26friends. Which one is the one you think
1:46:29you're going to enjoy more? It's
1:46:32obvious. It's obvious it's the second
1:46:34one, but we live our life like the
1:46:36first. And so I think if again it comes
1:46:40down to what you want. If you're like
1:46:41this girl, guy, whatever like satisfies
1:46:44so many things, like you will not find
1:46:47the perfect person cuz you're not
1:46:49perfect. And so it's just what on the
1:46:52stats of this person am I willing to
1:46:54make trades on? Am I willing to have
1:46:56somebody who's maybe not the most
1:46:58supportive of my career, but maybe
1:46:59they're supportive of my subjective
1:47:00wellbeing? Maybe they're supportive of
1:47:02my of my extracurriculars, maybe they're
1:47:04supportive of my spiritual journey,
1:47:05whatever. They might just be supportive
1:47:06in different ways. And so again, it's
1:47:08what do you want? And I think people I
1:47:10had a my my first boss um or last boss
1:47:14rather said this thing to me and it's
1:47:15really stuck with me. She said,
1:47:18uh
1:47:20figuring out what you want is 99% of the
1:47:22work. She said the easy part is getting
1:47:24it. And I thought about that a lot
1:47:26because I was like, no, the hard part is
1:47:27getting it. And it's like, no, it's like
1:47:28it's how many layers deep did you figure
1:47:30out what you really want? And I think
1:47:32that's because when you when you really
1:47:33know what you want, then it's then you
1:47:36just align the world to go get it.
1:47:39>> It's very hard to know what you want.
1:47:41>> Yeah.
1:47:41>> Because there's all these near-term
1:47:43temptations. There's this external
1:47:45noise. There's Instagram telling you
1:47:46that you want this.
1:47:47>> Yeah. No, you need this. Yeah. So being
1:47:50able to drown out all of that noise and
1:47:51get to some kind of signal and also to
1:47:54your point about sacrificing everything
1:47:56you could have had,
1:47:58you know, 2 3 4 5 we want the upsides of
1:48:02all paths without the cost of each. And
1:48:04so it I just
1:48:06>> this is the why I still believe that
1:48:08decision-m which is this the least sexy
1:48:10topic of all time but still the most
1:48:12important decision-m is the highest
1:48:14leverage thing that you can do in life
1:48:15making good decisions.
1:48:16>> And is there I mean we've talked about
1:48:18frameworks. Is there any framework for
1:48:20making a better decision as it relates
1:48:21to what we're talking about here?
1:48:23>> I think it's answering the first part
1:48:25which is what do I want to have happen?
1:48:26>> What do I want to have happen? Yeah,
1:48:29that's um even that that's you know I'm
1:48:32probably speaking from experience here
1:48:33because when I was what 20 years old was
1:48:36it 20 or 19 I Mark no friend of mine
1:48:39mentor of mine gave me this diary and I
1:48:41remember the first page I wrote in it
1:48:42what I wanted and what I wrote
1:48:44>> was before the age of 25 Range Rover
1:48:46Sport to be my first car million dollar
1:48:48six-pack girlfriend I'll throw up
1:48:50there's picture of it on the screen and
1:48:51I actually took a photo of it in my
1:48:52Range Rover at 24 years old as like a um
1:48:56but did was that actually what I should
1:48:57have written
1:48:59Well, I think it's probably what you
1:49:00wanted
1:49:01>> and then you updated your wants because
1:49:03you got it
1:49:04>> and then you found out that you wanted
1:49:05different things.
1:49:06>> Sure.
1:49:07>> Fortunately there my time horizon was
1:49:08quite small so I could figure out in
1:49:09three or four years without any without
1:49:11any like damage that that was not the
1:49:13right thing to write down. But some
1:49:14people orientate their lives to like I
1:49:16need to become a let's say billionaire
1:49:19>> and the sacrifice to use one of your
1:49:21words along the way is family, friends,
1:49:24mental health, health. And then you get
1:49:26there and you gosh,
1:49:30I can't turn back time. I can't rebuild
1:49:31relationships. I can't call my mom now.
1:49:33She doesn't answer or she's gone.
1:49:35>> So that's kind of why I always pause on
1:49:36this question of what do you want? Cuz I
1:49:37think we're actually like, as you say,
1:49:38like terrible at knowing. And I don't
1:49:40know a better way of knowing
1:49:42>> than getting in than deciding whether
1:49:43you want it or not.
1:49:46>> I think um one of the one of the
1:49:47interesting things with wanting is that
1:49:49we only want what we don't have.
1:49:51>> Mhm.
1:49:52>> You know, [clears throat] uh people who
1:49:53don't have kids want to have kids.
1:49:54People who have kids remember the times
1:49:56they didn't have kids. People who were
1:49:57single want to get married. People who
1:49:59are married, you know, reminisce about
1:50:00the times they get single. But I see
1:50:02that as inherently human, which is that
1:50:03we only remember good and not bad. And
1:50:08that's a beh So that's a behavior thing.
1:50:10That's not a So like the reason that
1:50:11when you get drunk and then you're hung
1:50:13over the next day and you say, "I'm
1:50:14never going to drink again." And then
1:50:14seven days later you drink again is
1:50:15because punishment fades. Reward sticks.
1:50:18Which is why you go back to the old
1:50:19girlfriend and you still long for them.
1:50:21Even though when you get back, you're
1:50:22like, "Oh my god, I heard she was crazy.
1:50:24What [laughter] was I thinking?" Right?
1:50:26But it's because we only remember the
1:50:27good, which is good to know and I think
1:50:29evolutionary because it's like you
1:50:30remember you got berries there, but you
1:50:31don't remember the sacrifice. Like all
1:50:32to the same degree from like pregnancy,
1:50:34horrible experience for many women. Not
1:50:36all, but many women. and it's a horrible
1:50:38experience.
1:50:39>> But then you get this reward at the end
1:50:41which is this baby and then that just
1:50:43like fades away and then you're like you
1:50:45know what I want another baby.
1:50:47[laughter]
1:50:47>> Speaking of babies, Alex.
1:50:48>> Yeah,
1:50:48>> there you go. You gave me a jump off
1:50:50point.
1:50:51>> Leila's pregnant.
1:50:52>> Yeah.
1:50:52>> How how long till the baby arrives?
1:50:54>> Four months.
1:50:55>> Four months.
1:50:56>> Yeah. Exciting.
1:50:58>> What are all the feelings? I can see
1:50:59some [laughter] a mixture of feelings on
1:51:01your face.
1:51:02>> Um I'm stoked, you know. Uh I'm stoked.
1:51:06Uh, I'd say I have elements of
1:51:10fear mostly that I I want to do a good
1:51:13job, you know, being a father. Um,
1:51:18>> I can see, Alex, that you're scared.
1:51:20>> I can tell because I know you're I've
1:51:22sat here probably for 10 hours over the
1:51:24last I don't know how many years.
1:51:26I'll tell you what the issue that I've
1:51:27been struggling the most with which is
1:51:30how do I define a good parent
1:51:33>> and how do I define a good child or a
1:51:36successful child which then just gets
1:51:38into sort of a meaning of life question
1:51:40which is why I think it's so difficult
1:51:42but like I'll take the parent one for
1:51:43example if if we define a good parent as
1:51:48a successful outcome for a child one in
1:51:51what domains
1:51:52>> right is it a billionaire who's lonely
1:51:54and sad is that had a successful
1:51:55outcome. I don't know. Um, but let's
1:51:58just assume the world's version of
1:51:59success, and I won't enumerate it.
1:52:02How many people who have all that
1:52:04success had bad childhoods?
1:52:07>> Mhm.
1:52:07>> Do we now call their parents good
1:52:09parents?
1:52:10>> Can I can I posit something? And I've
1:52:12not I've not had kids either, but what
1:52:14would happen if you removed both
1:52:15questions?
1:52:16>> Oh, just like I'll just take it as it
1:52:18is. Well, I I'll say it's very I it
1:52:20would I I almost want to say it's
1:52:22impossible for me [laughter] because of
1:52:24control. you like to be able to control
1:52:25your outcome.
1:52:25>> I want to know what I'm doing. I want to
1:52:27know where like I want I ask what do I
1:52:29want to have happen so that I can align
1:52:31all of my life to try and make that
1:52:33happen. And so if it's like and even
1:52:36even the question of like what is a
1:52:37successful child is is it a child who's
1:52:40happy?
1:52:41>> Mhm.
1:52:41>> Many people would say I just want my kid
1:52:43to be happy and that's fine.
1:52:44[clears throat]
1:52:45>> Is it my child is the maximum makes the
1:52:48maximum impact on society? different
1:52:50upbringing [clears throat]
1:52:52>> and like the trades that we make at the
1:52:54beginning, I probably won't be able to
1:52:56have a kid who has both or at least the
1:52:58degree to which I can steer.
1:52:59>> So, I have um three other siblings. I'm
1:53:02the youngest of four.
1:53:02>> Yeah.
1:53:03>> And one could theoretically say my
1:53:05parents were were a constant. The
1:53:06environment to some degree was a
1:53:08constant. There were slight changes.
1:53:09>> Us four.
1:53:10>> You've got this me the youngest, this
1:53:12crazy like entrepreneur, didn't go to
1:53:14university, blah blah blah. Got Jason,
1:53:16super genius at school, rewrote the
1:53:18textbooks to make them smart, smarter,
1:53:19works in this business, now my business,
1:53:21mathly, rewrote the like on the front of
1:53:23the newspapers. Kevin, smarter than all
1:53:25of us, savant level genius. Could said
1:53:27to me when he was younger that he could
1:53:28learn any language in four four weeks
1:53:30fluently if you gave number one in the
1:53:31world in Runescape at one point. People
1:53:33would watch him online play super genius
1:53:36um decided he doesn't want to go into
1:53:38world of work. And then my sister who
1:53:40you know I think she qualified as a
1:53:42lawyer um and she's worked in
1:53:45hospitality and stuff. All of us
1:53:47extremely different. My parents were a
1:53:49constant environment was a con constant.
1:53:51I say all this to say that maybe just
1:53:53like running experiments as we do in
1:53:54business. [laughter] Maybe like the job
1:53:55and you know Jeff Bezos talks a lot
1:53:57about this is to like stay out of the
1:53:58business of the output
1:54:00>> and focus purely on the input because
1:54:01you you know some of the questions you
1:54:02were saying there were like what do I
1:54:03want them to accomplish? Are they happy?
1:54:05These are all outputs.
1:54:06>> No for sure. Um, you can't. The other
1:54:07thing that I notice when I interview
1:54:09executives, I always ask them, "Tell me
1:54:10about your kids."
1:54:10>> And they tell me about the kids. And I
1:54:11go, "Are any of them the same?" I always
1:54:13ask the same question and they go, "No."
1:54:15>> We've got this one who won't stop
1:54:16bouncing off the walls. This one that's
1:54:18an empath and is like super shy.
1:54:20>> Did you do anything different? No.
1:54:22[laughter]
1:54:23So, like, you know, I think you you'll
1:54:25almost probably be guaranteed to miss
1:54:27expectations and be let down if you get
1:54:29involved in the output.
1:54:30>> Yeah. So, obviously there's nature
1:54:32nurture, there's kids who are going to
1:54:33have genetic predispositions for
1:54:34different things. So let's say that's
1:54:36half and then the other half is the
1:54:37nurture or environment. Now that is
1:54:40still something that I'm not going to be
1:54:41able to control 100% anyways because you
1:54:42guys did have different environments.
1:54:44You grew up in different grades talking
1:54:45to different people, having different
1:54:46teachers, went to different
1:54:47universities, like the older siblings.
1:54:49>> Yeah. There's Yeah. All of those are are
1:54:50variables. And so in some way it's a bit
1:54:52of chaos of you can't you can't control.
1:54:56But if we if we eliminate all control
1:54:58then what's the point? And so I I still
1:55:01come I come back to the like well I'm
1:55:02going to try and control the
1:55:03controllables.
1:55:04>> Yeah. inputs
1:55:04>> and right but if I have if I'm so it's
1:55:08like I need to know where I'm going the
1:55:11output in order to direct my car but
1:55:14what I'm focusing on a dayto-day is I
1:55:16need to shift gears I need to drive the
1:55:19car I need to fill it up with gas me
1:55:21focusing output is not going to get us
1:55:22there any faster but I have to know
1:55:23where I'm going and so this is again
1:55:25what I'm struggling with now to be fair
1:55:26I cannot figure it out and the kids can
1:55:27come either way [laughter]
1:55:29he's not going to wait for me to to
1:55:31figure this out and I'm sure maybe
1:55:32someday he'll look at this podcast and
1:55:33be like my god, dad. Jesus. Um,
1:55:35>> you know what's interesting? The car
1:55:37analogy I think might not be apt because
1:55:39I I I know I was trying to find another
1:55:41analogy and the one that I stumbled upon
1:55:42was a a plant growing a plant in your
1:55:45house.
1:55:46>> You put the seed in the in the the soil
1:55:48and you might think I really want this
1:55:49to be six foot and I really want 100
1:55:51leaves, but you [laughter]
1:55:54all you can do is water it and give it
1:55:56sunlight
1:55:57>> and it's going to be what it's going to
1:55:58be.
1:55:59>> Yeah. I mean, you can please be six
1:56:00foot, please be a football player or
1:56:02whatever, but you can control the input,
1:56:04which is the water and the the sunlight.
1:56:06>> It's funny because like my my immediate
1:56:08situation goes back to the grandpa
1:56:09story, which is like, well, I could put
1:56:11it in front of the I could put it in
1:56:12front of the sun or I could put it in a
1:56:13shitty [laughter] room. I could like I
1:56:15could determine how much I'm going to
1:56:16water it, what kind of soil it's going
1:56:18to get. Um, like there are other
1:56:20variables that like and so again, I
1:56:21would be like, do I want to grow the
1:56:22tallest plant? Do I want to grow the
1:56:24plant that has the most fruit? Well, I
1:56:25would either prune the plant or so that
1:56:26it would grow taller. Like these are all
1:56:28things. Now, can I change whether it's
1:56:30going to be a peach tree or an apple
1:56:31tree? No. That's going to be based on
1:56:32the seed that I plant and that I
1:56:33[clears throat] don't have any control
1:56:34over.
1:56:34>> But there are some things that I can
1:56:36control and of those things that I
1:56:39control, I would like to know what I'm
1:56:41optimizing towards [laughter]
1:56:43>> and I'm sure that this will just be a
1:56:45wonderful lesson in humility for myself
1:56:47and it'll [laughter] be great and people
1:56:48laugh in the comments for sure. Um, but
1:56:50yeah, I like [clears throat] I to ask me
1:56:54like what we were talking about earlier.
1:56:56I would say like one of the the foremost
1:56:58things that I love the most about Ila is
1:56:59that Ila has never tried to change me.
1:57:02She's like that's Alex. Like you can
1:57:05want him to be a peach tree or an apple
1:57:06tree, but like he's going to be Alex.
1:57:08He's going to dress that way. He's going
1:57:09to and if tomorrow he feels like shaving
1:57:11his face and having a fumchu, he's going
1:57:12to do that. Like I'm going to try and
1:57:14optimize to the degree that I can to
1:57:16equip the, you know, my son and
1:57:18hopefully future kids um with as many
1:57:21skills as possible to get what they want
1:57:23out of life. And I think that's that's
1:57:25what I would say that I that's where
1:57:26where I have settled on is I'm going to
1:57:29use all the resources I have to give
1:57:32them as many skills as I can to handle
1:57:34life. And if I can do that, then if they
1:57:37want to go to London or they want to go
1:57:39to LA, at least they'll have the skills
1:57:42to get there. Um, that's as far as I've
1:57:45gotten.
1:57:46>> I can't wait to see. I saw this quote
1:57:48that you you tweeted.
1:57:49>> Oh.
1:57:50>> And there's two quotes you tweeted that
1:57:51I was very curious about. The first one
1:57:54which took caught me off guard. I think
1:57:55I actually texted you when I saw this
1:57:56was this one. Do you want to read this
1:57:57one out?
1:57:58>> Yeah.
1:57:58>> So, this was February 2025. At your
1:58:01funeral, friends and family will argue
1:58:02over who gets your belongings. People
1:58:04will talk about the food and the venue.
1:58:06Your life will be summarized in two to
1:58:07three paragraphs. Conversations will
1:58:09shift from your life to their lives.
1:58:10Your friends will drive away thinking
1:58:12about what's next on their to-do list.
1:58:13Some people won't be able to make it
1:58:14because something came up. And most of
1:58:16the people you know today won't even be
1:58:18there. You're going to die. People move
1:58:20on in weeks, not years. do what you
1:58:22want.
1:58:25>> Why is that so important to hear?
1:58:28>> I think about death
1:58:31probably multiple times a day. Um, and I
1:58:34think that that's actually been
1:58:36positively correlated with subjective
1:58:38wellbeing. I mean, older people are
1:58:40incredibly aware of the fact that
1:58:42they're going to die. And I think that's
1:58:44what allows them like I look at so
1:58:46there's a I'm sure you've seen this, but
1:58:47there's this graph that shows how people
1:58:49rate their subjective well-being over
1:58:50their lives. And it's a smile graph,
1:58:52which I think is ultimately hilarious.
1:58:54But kids are really happy and then they
1:58:56just become they get more and more
1:58:58responsibility. And then your peak
1:58:59unhappiness is like 45 to like 55
1:59:03somewhere in there. It's like it's the
1:59:05crunch. You're taking care of kids.
1:59:07You're taking care of parents. You have
1:59:08a career. And to be fair, in some ways
1:59:10it's good because you're at your peak
1:59:11earnings. So you're making your most
1:59:14people are making their most money in
1:59:15this window and but they also need to do
1:59:17it. But there's they're very stressed,
1:59:19right? they're stressed really thin and
1:59:21then as they kind of get into 60 65 70
1:59:24and when I think about each of these two
1:59:26extremes on the child side and the
1:59:28elderly side and elders are often a lot
1:59:30like kids if we think about what like
1:59:32they they rely on other people. They're
1:59:35mostly just like they play games like
1:59:38[laughter] in each of these situations
1:59:39they have very little responsibility and
1:59:41they don't care about what other people
1:59:42think. If you have if you see a toddler
1:59:44go out with like a tutu and cowboy
1:59:45cowboy boots is because like they don't
1:59:46care what other people think. And when
1:59:48you're at the end of your life, you're
1:59:49like, I'm going to die, dude. And one of
1:59:51the things that I've been very obsessed
1:59:52with is is borderline but probably
1:59:54accurate is I'm trying to think, how am
1:59:57I going to see the world when I'm 80?
1:59:59And how how fast can I can I get to
2:00:01there now? Cuz I care more now about
2:00:04what other people think than I will when
2:00:05I'm 80. And I just want to pull as much
2:00:07of that forward as I can because when I
2:00:08see those 80-year-olds, I'm like, that
2:00:10guy does not give a And I'm like,
2:00:12I really want that. And so I I write a
2:00:16lot about death because it's I like
2:00:17these tweets are notes to self. They
2:00:20like they are not it is not a it is not
2:00:22from a pulpit that I say those. These
2:00:23are um as a self-help to to Alex when I
2:00:26write these things because it's like I
2:00:27probably when I was writing that in Feb,
2:00:29oh yeah, February 25. So February 25,
2:00:32the first quarter of 25 was the hardest
2:00:37quarter that I've had personally in
2:00:39eight years. You tweeted this at the
2:00:41same time.
2:00:42>> Yeah. I haven't felt this miserable in
2:00:44years. Shit's just hard sometimes. You
2:00:46have tough seasons, bad losses, and what
2:00:48makes it harder is you don't know when
2:00:49it'll end. But know it will end. So for
2:00:52anyone going through it right now, you
2:00:53do the only thing you can do. Keep
2:00:55fighting.
2:00:58>> I text you when you tweeted that because
2:01:00I had never heard you talk like that
2:01:02publicly before.
2:01:03>> Yeah.
2:01:04>> Yeah. I mean, it was it was a really
2:01:05tough quarter for me. I mean, mind you,
2:01:07I don't have kids, so that variable
2:01:09wasn't there. But every other variable
2:01:11that probably could have gone quote
2:01:14wrong was actually, ironically, outside
2:01:16of business. Business was fine. Uh, but
2:01:18it was just everything else.
2:01:20>> Um, and
2:01:22>> what do you mean by that?
2:01:23>> So, I say we were making plenty of
2:01:25money. Yeah. Um, but I had I think I had
2:01:28nine lawsuits that were open at that at
2:01:29that. It was a lot. It was nine nine
2:01:31open lawsuits. Um, and they all like it
2:01:34was like and they were all different
2:01:36like uh ex employee investment that two
2:01:39or two two or three were investments
2:01:41that we had made that like one of them
2:01:42got caught and stuff and then was like
2:01:44are we going to get pulled? It was just
2:01:45all this just stuff. Um just a lot. Um,
2:01:49and and then Ila uh had a like I think I
2:01:53told you she um she had a really
2:01:55horrible she like tore her colon and so
2:01:57that's been it's like it's like an
2:01:5818-month recovery and so she was in the
2:02:00thick of like going through the pain of
2:02:01that before about to get the surgery and
2:02:04so it was just like everything sucked
2:02:07and Bill Aman had this really great
2:02:09interview where there's a snippet that I
2:02:11ended up seeing which was he was he had
2:02:13just lost like a billion dollars. he was
2:02:16getting divorced and there was like one
2:02:18other thing. I think there was lawsuits
2:02:19because of the billion dollars,
2:02:20whatever. And and he said when you're
2:02:23going through that that those rough
2:02:24patches, he said he focused on the only
2:02:26thing he could do when he's like you
2:02:27can't you're not going to solve this in
2:02:28a day. Like it you can't finish it. And
2:02:30I think that's what that's what's so
2:02:31painful about it is you have this open
2:02:32loop that whenever it whenever something
2:02:35reminds you of it, it's like you get
2:02:36into this loop again of like rumination
2:02:38and just like a what if it goes wrong
2:02:39and catastrophizing. And he's like, "You
2:02:42just have to take one bite at a time and
2:02:46then every, you know, month or two
2:02:47months, you can look back and be like, I
2:02:49made some progress." And he's like, he
2:02:50just focused on making progress and
2:02:52chipping away at the problem. And I
2:02:54think that was more or less the approach
2:02:56I had, which is kind of like the the two
2:02:58feet in front of you, like what are the
2:02:59things that I can actually do right now?
2:03:01I will do those. And sometimes, and I
2:03:03remember in that season, a lot of what I
2:03:04was thinking about was so I wrote, so
2:03:06when my mother passed uh this year, I
2:03:08wrote an article for myself. Yeah. Um, I
2:03:11wrote an article for myself about mental
2:03:13toughness and it was because I wanted
2:03:14to, of course, it's not like be mentally
2:03:16tough when your mother dies. That's not
2:03:18the point. It was like, how am I
2:03:20supposed to show up right now? That was
2:03:21kind of like the the thought process I
2:03:23had. And so I basically here this so I
2:03:27saw it like this, which is
2:03:31bad thing happens, right?
2:03:34There's these
2:03:38vectors of what happens as a result. So
2:03:42you have how long or how many bad things
2:03:45have to happen before you change your
2:03:47behavior. So let's imagine this line is
2:03:48how we're acting. How many bad things
2:03:51have to happen in order for us to change
2:03:52how we act? Are we shorter with our
2:03:53spouse? Do we not pay attention at work?
2:03:56Like what how many bad things if
2:03:57somebody the perfect perfectly mentally
2:04:00tough person would be able to have an
2:04:01unlimited amount of things happen to
2:04:03them and then their behavior would
2:04:04remain the same
2:04:07from purely from that perspective. The
2:04:09next issue is okay well let's say that
2:04:10you're not a perfectly mentally tough
2:04:11person and something crosses your
2:04:13tolerance threshold and then your
2:04:15behavior changes and so we have this
2:04:18next measurement. So we have how long
2:04:20and how much can you handle? We have how
2:04:22deep do you go when you fall? How how
2:04:25badly do you change your behavior? Do
2:04:26you just are you short with your staff
2:04:28or do you get into heroin?
2:04:29>> No, like how bad how badly do you fall?
2:04:31And then the next piece is
2:04:35how long does it take you to recover,
2:04:38return back to original function? And
2:04:40then the part that I added to this is
2:04:42and then when I return back to original
2:04:43function, am I better than I was before?
2:04:46Do I am I the same as I was before or am
2:04:49I permanently worse?
2:04:50>> In what dimension? resilience or
2:04:53happiness.
2:04:54>> So I I basically have term one, term
2:04:56two, term three and then this was I term
2:04:59this as adaptability which is how how do
2:05:04you respond after a bad thing happens?
2:05:06Do you get better the same or worse?
2:05:08>> You have tolerance
2:05:11I think this is fortitude um which is
2:05:13how much bad stuff can you handle before
2:05:16it hits you. You have resilience here,
2:05:20which is how long does it take you to
2:05:21return to baseline? And then you have
2:05:23tolerance, which is how how low do you
2:05:26go?
2:05:28And so through mapping these four
2:05:30vectors of behavior, I was able to look
2:05:33at myself during this harder season. And
2:05:35this was such a mind because think
2:05:37about this. I do a $106 million launch.
2:05:40My mom got to see it, which is really
2:05:41cool. She dies four weeks later. I
2:05:44realized the goal, we talk about
2:05:46long-term, right? $100 million, $100
2:05:47million, $100 million. The goal of the
2:05:49books was to have $100 million at the
2:05:51end. The offers book was an offer so
2:05:52good people sell stupid. I gave it away
2:05:54for free, made it 99 cents, gave a
2:05:55course with it. No one had done that.
2:05:57Um, and it was an offer so good leads. I
2:05:59did a huge gigantic launch, but I didn't
2:06:01monetize because I just wanted to show
2:06:03what having crazy advertising for
2:06:05something would do. And I used all the
2:06:06stuff in the book to advertise the book.
2:06:08>> This book's about monetization. And so,
2:06:10I had an amazing offer and crazy
2:06:12advertising and a money model behind it,
2:06:14which is why I made $100 million on a
2:06:15weekend.
2:06:15>> Mhm. So, this is a multi-year project.
2:06:18And so, I I get to have this this moment
2:06:19of like all these things come to
2:06:21fruition. And then my mother dies 3
2:06:23weeks. It was the 19th, right? So, yeah.
2:06:25Literally a month later. And so, a freak
2:06:28accident.
2:06:28>> Yeah. And so, I'm I'm just like, what
2:06:32how am I supposed to like what am I how
2:06:33do I think through this? And so, I wrote
2:06:35this for myself to think, okay, how am I
2:06:37supposed to show up? And also one of the
2:06:40things that I found really interesting
2:06:41was that people will judge how much you
2:06:43love someone by how much you choose to
2:06:45suffer.
2:06:47And why does how much I suffer have
2:06:48anything to do with how much I love
2:06:49someone? And I don't think that the
2:06:52person, if you did lose somebody, I'm
2:06:53sorry. Um I don't think the person that
2:06:55you lost probably wants you to suffer.
2:06:58And so we have this this idea that we
2:07:01need to suffer to prove our love, which
2:07:03I was like, "Well, that's an assumption
2:07:05I'm coming in with. Do I reject that?" I
2:07:06was like, "Yeah, I think I reject that.
2:07:08And so bad thing happens that crossed my
2:07:12threshold. How low am I going to go? I
2:07:14was probably not like the most thrilled
2:07:16about life during that period. But I
2:07:17thought, well, what can I do? What are
2:07:18my controllables? Well, I'm still going
2:07:20to record content. I'm still I'm still
2:07:23going to help businesses cuz I feel good
2:07:24when I help businesses. Why would I stop
2:07:26doing that? Well, I'm still going to
2:07:27work out cuz I feel good when I work
2:07:28out. Why do I Why would I stop doing
2:07:30that?
2:07:30>> Did you have motivation though? Were you
2:07:32motivated in the sort of cliche sense of
2:07:34the word? Did you feel like it? I would
2:07:35say yes, but not for the reason that
2:07:37people think. I was motivated for two
2:07:39reasons. One, because I don't think she
2:07:40would want me to stop. And number two,
2:07:43because those things made me feel better
2:07:46and I felt bad
2:07:48and so I wanted to feel better.
2:07:50>> I tried to change as little about my
2:07:51life as possible and that is what got me
2:07:54through that. And now some people say,
2:07:56"Oh, you need to take time to mourn."
2:07:58It's like, why does the way I mourn have
2:07:59to look the way you mourn? And why do
2:08:01why is is there a right or wrong way to
2:08:03mourn? She must have been so proud of
2:08:05you.
2:08:06>> She was. She was.
2:08:07>> We talk a lot about your dad, but we've
2:08:09never really spoken much about your mom.
2:08:10>> No, I don't.
2:08:16She's a sweet lady.
2:08:22>> Yeah, she always she always believed.
2:08:32And so I think this last one right
2:08:34adaptability which is
2:08:37in what world can this make me better?
2:08:42Like how can how can this loss make me
2:08:45better?
2:08:46And also, by the way, like this
2:08:54trauma, bad thing happens, you're
2:08:56permanently worse, right? And so it's
2:09:00like, what would that look like? What
2:09:02would me growing from this look like?
2:09:03And I think part of that was proving
2:09:06that
2:09:08I can continue as my way of honoring her
2:09:12and her memory. and I'm going to
2:09:17continue to try and pursue the the path
2:09:20that she knew I started pursuing when I
2:09:23left home when I talked to her when I
2:09:26when I left, you know. Um,
2:09:29and so like what's changed between then
2:09:31and now? I'm just closer to where I was
2:09:33trying to go and I don't think she would
2:09:35want me to abandon that path. And so I
2:09:38just you keep fighting.
2:09:41You had that conversation with Tony
2:09:42Robbins which I found to be amazing.
2:09:43It's fantastic conversation. I spoke to
2:09:45him about it actually. Um I wondered if
2:09:47it had changed you in any way. You
2:09:48talked to him about happiness. You you'd
2:09:49said that you know you'd said some
2:09:50similar things to me that happiness had
2:09:52never been a high priority for you.
2:09:53>> Yeah.
2:09:54>> Did that conversation change your
2:09:55perspective at all on happiness?
2:10:00[snorts]
2:10:01>> I would I would love to say that it did.
2:10:03Um because I think it would be like a
2:10:05better sound bite. Yeah. Um,
2:10:10not really.
2:10:11>> So, where are you now on the subject of
2:10:13happiness? Are you are you happy?
2:10:16>> I have a tough time with that. Mostly
2:10:18because I just I don't really even know
2:10:19what it means. Um, because like there's
2:10:22some people that you like, do I feel
2:10:24joy? Of course. But you can feel joy at
2:10:25a at a funeral.
2:10:26>> Are you excited by your life? Are you
2:10:28excited about life on a daily basis?
2:10:30>> Yes, I'm I'm intensely interested in my
2:10:33life. I'm very fascinated by the things
2:10:35that I work on. Does it feel good to be
2:10:37you?
2:10:39>> Sometimes. I think I think
2:10:41>> more days than not.
2:10:43>> Probably. One of the things that Arthur
2:10:45Brooks has been really helpful you you
2:10:46know his stuff. Um and he talks
2:10:48specifically to strive and I'm like stop
2:10:50talking to me. [laughter] So strivvers
2:10:52he defines as people who like you are
2:10:53strivvers. They're they're high
2:10:54achievers. And what's really interesting
2:10:56is he describes what the childhood of a
2:10:59strive is. He's like almost to a tea.
2:11:00This is what it is. He's like, it's
2:11:02typically an immigrant parent or
2:11:04something like that where they're trying
2:11:06to do a good job and they basically
2:11:08withhold approval only when the kid does
2:11:11a good thing. And then what happens is
2:11:13the kid learns that love is earned and
2:11:15then you learn that loop. You're
2:11:16reinforced for that loop. And then you
2:11:17do win more and you earn more love. And
2:11:19then you get into the big wide world and
2:11:21then you're like, how do I get more of
2:11:22this drug, this love drug, which means I
2:11:24need to earn as much as possible? I need
2:11:25to earn as much as possible. So you just
2:11:27get addicted to the loop of working. And
2:11:29so I find this really fascinating. But
2:11:30the other part of of of his work that
2:11:35has been actually in some ways very like
2:11:36grounding for me is about half of your
2:11:39subjective wellbeing is genetic
2:11:41>> half. And so and to be clear like I'm
2:11:45I'm super blessed. I have a lot of good
2:11:46things that have gone for me. My
2:11:47mother's side of the family tree has a
2:11:49lot of tough mental stuff. Uh very bad
2:11:52stuff. But they're also really brilliant
2:11:56in some ways. I think to myself like
2:11:58maybe I'm just maxed out on my 50 and
2:12:00I'm crushing it. But the thing is is
2:12:03like I don't know because like we don't
2:12:05you know if if you're if you're born 7
2:12:07feet tall everyone can see it.
2:12:08>> But some people are born probably one
2:12:10foot tall in terms of happiness and they
2:12:11learn to play basketball really really
2:12:13well at one foot and people are still
2:12:14like oh he's only one foot tall.
2:12:16>> So I don't I don't know how to judge how
2:12:17well I'm doing. I would say that I have
2:12:19been way worse than I am now. I
2:12:21aggressively want to keep living. And to
2:12:23me that's a that's a really strong
2:12:26indicator for me. Um and to answer like
2:12:30Albert Kamu is one of my favorite
2:12:31philosophers. Um and he has this quote
2:12:33that I I love which is what is the
2:12:36meaning of your life? And his answer to
2:12:38that is the reason you don't kill
2:12:40yourself. And it's it sounds dark, but a
2:12:43lot of very dark things can be flipped
2:12:44into very light things, which is that
2:12:46when you ask someone that question,
2:12:48they'll typically answer like, well, I
2:12:49mean, my my kids, my wife, the people
2:12:51that rely on me, and it's like, right,
2:12:53that's why you're alive.
2:12:56And that thing can also change because
2:12:58like if you asked me 10 years ago, I'd
2:12:59have a different answer than I do this
2:13:00this time, and maybe in 20 years it'll
2:13:02be different. One of the remarkable
2:13:03things I learned from doing this podcast
2:13:05is a real appreciation for people's
2:13:08predisposition as it relates to mental
2:13:09health and the way that their mind is
2:13:11with them. Like growing up, I thought
2:13:13everyone's mind was like mine as you do.
2:13:15>> And then for, you know, you stumble
2:13:16across this thing called podcasting, you
2:13:18start interviewing people and going,
2:13:19"What's going on in your brain?"
2:13:20[laughter]
2:13:21>> And then they they play it to you and
2:13:22you go that they can't possibly be
2:13:24telling me the truth. It can't possibly
2:13:26be the case that there's other people.
2:13:27And I remember sitting here with um a
2:13:29comedian who told me that inside his
2:13:31brain there's a voice that literally
2:13:33roots for his failure. That literally
2:13:35tells him he's he's pathetic, he's going
2:13:36to fail, he's terrible, this was
2:13:38terrible, you've embarrassed yourself.
2:13:40And I thought, gosh, isn't that crazy
2:13:41that there is like a mental health
2:13:44mindset privilege which most of us don't
2:13:46even acknowledge the privilege of. And
2:13:49when you speak, I it's fascinating to me
2:13:52in the same in the same way that I might
2:13:54assume that it's fascinating when you
2:13:55hear someone answer the question, "Are
2:13:56you happy?" and they just go, "Yes, of
2:13:58course."
2:13:58>> Yeah. Right. [laughter]
2:13:59>> Like, is that really curious to you when
2:14:00you hear people say, "Yes, I'm I'm
2:14:01amazingly happy."
2:14:02>> Yeah.
2:14:02>> Is that curious to you?
2:14:04>> Um, sort of. I think when when I hear
2:14:06someone say that, like probably my
2:14:08immediate gut response before I even
2:14:10like think about my response um is well,
2:14:13they probably haven't even defined what
2:14:14happiness is and they just wanted to
2:14:15give an easy answer. [laughter]
2:14:16>> Interesting. Like that's like that's
2:14:17what I immediately think. But like I
2:14:22>> it's like
2:14:24>> this is like the the absolute as as raw
2:14:26truth as I could possibly give to anyone
2:14:28which is that like I I am very proud of
2:14:31the things that I've done up to this
2:14:32point in my life. Like I I can look back
2:14:33and be like I'm proud that I did that
2:14:35and I and I feel that sense of
2:14:36accomplishment and I and I what is the
2:14:38emotion attached to proud?
2:14:40>> I don't is is pride itself an an
2:14:42emotion?
2:14:42>> I don't know.
2:14:45How does one experience pride as an
2:14:46emotion? Is that like a feel
2:14:48>> very full? I'm like very happy that I
2:14:50did these things like the books that you
2:14:51have in front of you. I'm incredibly
2:14:52proud of.
2:14:53>> If it was a facial expression, how would
2:14:54pride look?
2:14:57>> Yeah.
2:14:58>> No,
2:14:59>> no, not for me. I mean, I'm just it's
2:15:01it's very soulful for me. Like, I'm I'm
2:15:02very filled by this work and that's why
2:15:06>> that's why I keep doing it. And I know
2:15:07that when I die, I think the thing that
2:15:08will actually the the only thing that I
2:15:11think has a chance of living on past me,
2:15:12past when people even know who I am is
2:15:14these books.
2:15:15>> My YouTube videos are going to
2:15:16disappear. Like all that stuff will go
2:15:17away, but I think I think these books
2:15:19will survive. And I write them that way.
2:15:21Like I write them kind of thinking that
2:15:23like the people who read this will not
2:15:25know who I am.
2:15:25>> Should people come to you for happiness
2:15:27advice?
2:15:28>> No. Go go go find somebody who's really
2:15:30happy. Um the here's actually here's
2:15:32what's really tough though, right? is
2:15:34that no one knows base what someone's
2:15:36base level is and that's what's so
2:15:38tough.
2:15:38>> I think I asked that because one I think
2:15:40a lot of people assume that this work
2:15:42learning how to be financially free and
2:15:44to build a business
2:15:46>> is in service of this north star which
2:15:48we all agree upon which is happiness.
2:15:50>> Yeah.
2:15:50>> So one would think okay what's the point
2:15:52building a business and getting a $100
2:15:53million deal or whatever if it doesn't
2:15:56then lead to the happiness payoff. And
2:15:58if you're telling me that you're not the
2:16:00person to come to for happiness advice,
2:16:02I go, "Well, then what's what's this
2:16:04then? Why do I need to do this if this
2:16:05is not going to make me do you see what
2:16:07I'm saying?"
2:16:07>> Oh, I totally see what you're saying.
2:16:09Which is why bother pursuing this to
2:16:10begin with.
2:16:10>> Yeah. If it's if you're not promising me
2:16:12happiness as the north star.
2:16:13>> Yeah. I won't do that.
2:16:15>> Okay.
2:16:15>> Many people will sell you happiness. I
2:16:17will not be one of them. Um I try to
2:16:19sell quantitative things. Like I know
2:16:21that if more people find out about your
2:16:23stuff, you will make more. If you have a
2:16:25better way of monetizing and a faster
2:16:27way to bring cash forward, your business
2:16:28will grow more. If you have an offer
2:16:30that's so good people stupid saying no,
2:16:31they won't say no and they'll say yes.
2:16:32>> But you make no promise or guarantee
2:16:34where that would lead you in your life.
2:16:35>> No, that's to me like that's beyond my
2:16:37scope.
2:16:37>> Fine.
2:16:38>> Like I know. Yeah. And so I I enjoy the
2:16:41topic of of the happiness stuff because
2:16:44I I love amorphous topics. [laughter]
2:16:47Um, but the the conclusion that I said I
2:16:51started with when you asked about the
2:16:52Tony thing was I at least my it is my
2:16:56worldview which could be wrong that
2:16:58human beings our internal feelings are
2:17:01like the weather.
2:17:03>> Mhm. There's sunny days and there's
2:17:05rainy days and there's rainy seasons and
2:17:06there's sunny seasons and we go through
2:17:09them all. And even if things get better,
2:17:12our baseline adjusts so that yet again
2:17:15cuz like if we think about a year, I
2:17:17actually give this example to my sales
2:17:18team. So if we think about this as a
2:17:20year and we have all the days of the
2:17:22year, half the days are going to be
2:17:25above average and half the days are
2:17:26going to be below average. And every
2:17:29month you're going to have a bottom 10%
2:17:32day three times because you have 36 days
2:17:36per year that are going to be bottom 10%
2:17:38days for no reason purely because law of
2:17:41large numbers and you're also going to
2:17:43have three days per month which is
2:17:45almost one a week. That's going be a top
2:17:4610% day of the whole year. Pretty
2:17:48impressive. But it's one a week almost.
2:17:50Right. And so I think about this
2:17:52variability a lot because when I'm
2:17:54having a quote bad day because I have
2:17:56them I have I have them all the time. Um
2:17:59and I just think this is probably just
2:18:01the bottom 10% day.
2:18:02>> And like and [clears throat] I think the
2:18:04the one of the one of the lessons that
2:18:05I've learned from an entrepreneurship
2:18:07perspective translated into life is my
2:18:10emotional discomfort is not an adequate
2:18:12reason to change what I'm doing.
2:18:14And so we will get these moments of
2:18:16dissatisfaction or discomfort and be
2:18:18like I'm life sucks. I need to change
2:18:20something. And if you don't like your
2:18:22life in general, change something. But
2:18:24if you don't like your life today, maybe
2:18:27don't break up with your wife.
2:18:28>> Maybe give it a day. Right? And so I
2:18:31think again, I come from the
2:18:32entrepreneur perspective, which is that
2:18:34people will have a bad day and then
2:18:35basically take it out on their business
2:18:37and then change a bunch of things and
2:18:39then destroy what they're with this
2:18:40fledgling business that's getting going
2:18:42because they had an emotional need that
2:18:43they could not tolerate. And so that's
2:18:46why this graph
2:18:48has been so valuable to me, which is is
2:18:50my bottom 10% day a big enough thing for
2:18:52me to change my behavior. If I determine
2:18:55that I can have a bad day and still do
2:18:56good work, that is a good day. Alex, we
2:19:00have a closing tradition where the last
2:19:01guest leaves a question for the next
2:19:03guest not knowing who they're leaving it
2:19:04for. Funny question. What would you do
2:19:05if you believed that super intelligent
2:19:08AI, better, faster, cheaper, etc. than
2:19:10the best humans at everything was just a
2:19:13few years away? Mhm.
2:19:16What would you do?
2:19:28On the business side, I would build as
2:19:30much real world proof as I possibly
2:19:32could and as much track record with as
2:19:34track record with as many customers as I
2:19:37could so that I could reinforce a brand
2:19:39that would give me some differentiation
2:19:40in that future marketplace. So you'd
2:19:42focus on building a stronger brand
2:19:44>> from a business perspective.
2:19:45>> Why?
2:19:46>> Because I think in a world where
2:19:47everyone has access to a super
2:19:49intelligence. Um what are the things
2:19:52that are going to like will people still
2:19:54care about reputations in the future?
2:19:56Probably. And so I see that as something
2:19:58that won't change. Distribution will
2:19:59still cost money. Like those things I
2:20:02think those things will be true. Might
2:20:04be less, but it'll still cost. And
2:20:06typically if again because there's
2:20:07there's still marketplace dynamics.
2:20:10Not to get into the the weeds on this,
2:20:11but from an entrepreneurship
2:20:12perspective, I would continue to build
2:20:14trust and distribution. From a personal
2:20:16perspective, I would think really hard
2:20:18about
2:20:20what it means to be human and
2:20:24why I'm here to begin with.
2:20:27>> You going to buy a farm one day?
2:20:29>> I'm It's not out of the equation. Um I
2:20:32mean, Leila's Ila's super gung-ho on
2:20:34that. So,
2:20:35>> on a ranch.
2:20:36>> Yeah, we almost did. We almost bought
2:20:38one actually the first time we sold.
2:20:40>> Where do I direct? So, if people want to
2:20:42learn more from you, you've got your
2:20:43YouTube channel where you've just
2:20:43started this brand new series which is
2:20:45really interesting. I'll link that below
2:20:46as well for people that um want to watch
2:20:48it. It's kind of like a Dragon's Den
2:20:50Shark Tanky format where you're bringing
2:20:53entrepreneurs, they're competing for
2:20:54$100,000
2:20:56um through this knockout series of
2:20:57episodes. Very interesting. These four
2:21:00books in front of me, there's another
2:21:01one over there, but these four here that
2:21:02from the hundred million dollar series
2:21:04have all sold more than 5 million copies
2:21:08since inception. You've actually broke
2:21:09the world record for selling so many
2:21:11copies of this book. This one.
2:21:14>> Yeah.
2:21:14>> Um in the short sort of a 24-hour period
2:21:16or something creative like that.
2:21:17>> 2.9 and 24.
2:21:20>> Staggering. I'll link all of these books
2:21:21below. They are essential reading for
2:21:23anybody that's wants a cheat code. um
2:21:25probably a decade worth of decade head
2:21:28start into the world of business. Um
2:21:29explained in a phenomenally accessible
2:21:32way with literally your drawings.
2:21:34>> Yeah.
2:21:34>> Inside them. Um and the thing that I
2:21:36think has made these books so successful
2:21:38and become the bible for many
2:21:39entrepreneurs, startup entrepreneurs,
2:21:40but also entrepreneurs that are looking
2:21:41to scale through different seasons of
2:21:43business is is just it's so um
2:21:47actionable. A lot of books are like
2:21:49highly philosophical and there's lots of
2:21:51jargon and stuff. These are like this is
2:21:53what to do. this is what to do. And I I
2:21:56think ultimately that's the most
2:21:57valuable thing. So, thank you for
2:21:59writing these incredible books. Is there
2:22:00anything else that people should know
2:22:01about that you're working on or thinking
2:22:02about before we tune up tune out?
2:22:04>> No, just grab the books. I'll link all
2:22:07of them below. Alex, thank you as
2:22:08always. Um I love talking to you, not
2:22:10just for because it makes great content
2:22:11cuz I can learn so much and I've written
2:22:13so many notes down here from just
2:22:14bouncing off you that I'm going to go
2:22:16apply in my own business. So, thank you
2:22:17as always. I really appreciate it. Thank
2:22:19you very
2:22:20YouTube have this new crazy algorithm
2:22:21where they know exactly what video you
2:22:23would like to watch next based on AI and
2:22:26all of your viewing behavior. And the
2:22:28algorithm says that this video is the
2:22:31perfect video for you. It's different
2:22:32for everybody looking right now. Check
2:22:34this video out and I bet you you might
2:22:36love it.

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