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Alan Watts Challenges Conventional Ideas About Relationships | Being in the Way Podcast Ep. 42 — Transcript

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0:02[music]
0:07[music]
0:13>> Welcome to Being in the Way, the Alan
0:16Watts Podcast. I'm your host Mark Watts.
0:19And today we're going to be listening to
0:21a very special talk about falling in
0:22love. Title of this is Divine Madness,
0:25[music] and in it he contemplates the
0:27possibility that perhaps it is only when
0:29we fall in love that we see each other
0:31as we truly are, as a god or goddess
0:34incarnate.
0:35This is Alan Watts in Divine Madness.
0:46>> This morning I'm going to talk to you
0:48about a particularly virulent and
0:50dangerous form of divine madness,
0:54which is called falling in love.
1:01Which is from a practical point of view,
1:03one of the most insane things you can
1:05do.
1:06All that can happen to you.
1:10Because
1:12in the eyes of a given woman
1:15or a given man
1:17an opposite
1:19who though to the eyes of everybody else
1:21a perfectly plain and ordinary person
1:24can appear to be uh god or goddess
1:27incarnate.
1:29To be such a an enchantment
1:32that one can say in the words of an old
1:34song which probably dates me
1:36every little breeze seems to whisper
1:38Louise.
1:44And this is an extraordinary disruptive
1:47experience, a subversive experience in
1:49the conduct of human affairs.
1:52Because you never know when it will
1:54strike
1:56or for what reason.
1:57Uh
1:58it's something like a contracting a very
2:01chronic disease once you get into it.
2:05And we try to resolve it sometimes by
2:08making it the basis for a marriage.
2:11Which is an extraordinarily dangerous
2:12[laughter] thing to do.
2:19And this is because in Western
2:21civilization,
2:23we have a tradition of the family,
2:26which is very curious,
2:28and which would seem to be the most
2:30ridiculous composition of disparate
2:33ideas imaginable.
2:37When we go back to the origins of
2:40Western civilization in the Hebrew and
2:42Christian traditions,
2:45we find
2:47that the idea of marriage
2:50and the experience of falling in love
2:53are really rather separate things.
2:56Because in those earlier times,
3:00in agrarian cultures,
3:03nobody ever chose
3:06their marriage partner.
3:08There are certain exceptions to this,
3:10that in ancient Greece,
3:13you would occasionally find a woman who
3:15is called a parthenos,
3:18which has been mistranslated virgin.
3:22The correct meaning of parthenos is a
3:24woman who chooses her own husband.
3:29And there were very few of them. And in
3:30that passage in the book of the prophet
3:31Isaiah, where it says, "Behold, a virgin
3:34shall conceive and bear a son, and his
3:35name shall be called Immanuel."
3:38That is in Greek, parthenos, a parthenos
3:40[snorts] shall conceive.
3:43And it therefore has nothing strictly to
3:44do with a virgin, although a woman who
3:46chooses her own husband might
3:48conceivably be a virgin.
3:52But
3:53by and large,
3:56>> [clears throat]
3:56>> a marriage
3:58was an alliance of families.
4:02And it was contracted not simply for the
4:05purpose of raising children, yes,
4:09but also to create a social
4:12unit smaller than a village.
4:16A village therefore being a cluster of
4:19families.
4:20And these families were rather large.
4:24>> [clears throat]
4:24>> So, families allied.
4:27The oldsters, the grandpa and grandma
4:29who had an enormous voice in who their
4:31children were going to marry, used to as
4:34you know, I suppose this is no news to
4:36any of you, used to dicker and
4:39use go-betweens.
4:41And they considered not only whether
4:44this girl was suitable for their son and
4:46vice versa, but also what kind of a
4:48dowry she would bring, whether it would
4:51be advantageous to the two families to
4:53form such an alliance. And of course,
4:55these things almost up to quite recent
4:57times were always important in the
5:00marital affairs of royal families.
5:03But as is notorious,
5:05all royal families and the kings and
5:08queens kept concubines and
5:11had outside arrangements when and if
5:14they should happen to fall in love and
5:15even if they didn't, they had mistresses
5:18simply to prevent monogamy from becoming
5:21monotony.
5:24So,
5:26that is the basis, you see, and that is
5:28why to this day
5:30marriage is a civil and or religious
5:34ceremony,
5:36the basis of which is a contract.
5:41A legal contract
5:43which one signs on the dotted line.
5:47And therefore there are all kinds of
5:48laws as laws relate to contracts that
5:52this contract is very difficult to get
5:53out of.
5:55The rationale for that being quite
5:57obvious
5:59that uh
6:00society believes that it requires a
6:02secure environment for children.
6:05but also just the general stability of
6:07things.
6:10Because when
6:11people break up a marriage, it's sort of
6:14unnerving
6:15for everyone.
6:17You see a couple and you think for a
6:19long time that they're the happiest and
6:21best adjusted couple you ever met.
6:24The next thing you know is that they've
6:26split up.
6:27And you begin to think, "Now, what goes
6:29on here? Are all my friends crazy?"
6:32Because you see people breaking up all
6:34around.
6:36Of course, you call it breaking up.
6:38That's a
6:40put-down phrase to break up.
6:43Especially, it sounds like smashing
6:45something, as if something precious had
6:47been smashed.
6:49Whereas, it may be something quite
6:50different altogether, depending on how
6:52you evaluate it.
6:56But now, into this kind of feudal
6:58conception of marriage,
7:01there came in, very largely I think, as
7:04a result of the
7:07poetic
7:08movement
7:11that was centered in southern France, in
7:13Provence,
7:14in the Middle Ages, what is called the
7:17cult of courtly love.
7:22This
7:23is something about which scholars
7:26dispute.
7:29According to one theory,
7:32the
7:34knightly or courtly lover, who was also
7:36a poet,
7:38would
7:40select a lady to be his heart's desire,
7:45preferably a married lady.
7:48And he would
7:51yearn for her
7:53and sing songs under her window
7:56and send messages to her and little
7:58tokens of his devotion.
8:01But according to this particular theory,
8:02he must never go to bed with her.
8:05Not only would that be adultery, but it
8:07would spoil the state of being in love.
8:11That it should always be an unfulfilled
8:13state and an unhappy state.
8:16This is the theory of Denis de Rougemont
8:18in his book Love in the Western World or
8:20Passion and Society. It has two titles.
8:23And the other theory is probably more
8:26realistic. That um
8:29This was first of all the the the
8:32the great ladies
8:34of
8:35the noble families
8:37were awfully bored.
8:40Because their husbands were always out
8:42hunting and making war and wenching and
8:45so on.
8:46And therefore they had to have lovers,
8:48too.
8:50And so they did indeed have adulterous
8:52affairs on the side.
8:54And a great deal of poetry arose out
8:56about this.
8:57Because you see it's
8:59the My friend Young Korbada always says
9:04that laws about sexual relationships
9:07should never be liberalized. There
9:09should always be strict disapproval of
9:11adultery and fornication. Because if
9:14there is not that strict disapproval and
9:15if it's not difficult to attain, it's
9:17less fun.
9:20And I have worked out Those of you who
9:23have read my book Beyond Theology, I've
9:25worked out a whole theory of the
9:27Christian repression of sex. That the
9:29secret intent of this was to make people
9:32more interested in sex.
9:35Because if there is complete liberality
9:37and pro- promiscuity in every direction,
9:39it all becomes so easy that it might
9:42indeed be in danger of becoming a bore.
9:46And then people would
9:48seek other dissipations
9:50of of perhaps a lesser
9:53healthy kind.
9:56So then
9:57as a result of the gradual fusion of
10:00these two approaches to the relationship
10:02of the sexes
10:04we have arrived at the idea of the
10:07romantic marriage.
10:09In which the two
10:11trends are
10:13misallied
10:14to say the very least.
10:17You are supposed therefore to fall in
10:19love with someone
10:22and of your own choice naturally. It has
10:24to be that way if we're going to fall in
10:25love, if that is a choice.
10:28And then in enter in to that
10:31relationship
10:32with a legal contract
10:35in which you get up before a magistrate
10:37or priest and do solemnly curse and
10:39swear
10:40that you will be faithful to each other
10:42until death do you part.
10:45Which leads often to murder.
10:50>> [laughter]
10:51>> And it seems to me perfectly obvious
10:54that two young people who are extremely
10:56anxious
10:58uh to get into each other's embraces
11:00and the only way of doing so under the
11:02circumstances is entering into this
11:04contract, will naturally be ready to
11:07promise anything.
11:09>> [laughter]
11:11>> To fulfill this desire.
11:14And uh while there are
11:17indeed
11:18many many married legally married
11:21couples
11:22who
11:23have a very very happy alliance that
11:25goes on all their lives.
11:28And we don't hear about them because
11:30uh good news is never news.
11:34It's only the unhappy couples who make
11:36the newspapers.
11:39And there are enormous numbers of them,
11:40but they are mainly I think people who
11:42were lucky.
11:44There is no way of making a marriage
11:47work
11:48so far as I know.
11:50Because every attempt to make a marriage
11:52work uh is is secretly within the breast
11:55of each partner builds up hostility.
12:00Uh you can
12:02I know all this. I'm speaking from a
12:04certain amount of bitter experience.
12:06Um you can
12:09work very hard to keep a marriage
12:11together.
12:12And as you do so,
12:16you may fail to recognize, you see, that
12:18you are being untrue to your own
12:20emotions.
12:22And you think, "Well, I must control my
12:24emotions for the sake of children, for
12:27the sake of society, for the sake of
12:28everything like that."
12:30And so, you work and work, and one of
12:33the ways of working is to try to
12:35convince yourself that you're in love.
12:38And you go through the pretenses of
12:40love.
12:41You hypnotize yourself with loving
12:43language towards your partner.
12:46You
12:47go out of your way. You make little
12:49lists to remember attentions you must
12:51pay. You keep a diary in which you
12:53remember your wedding anniversary
12:54because you're very liable to forget it.
12:56And all these things, and you really
12:59work it. Now, the more you work it, the
13:00more you're building up promises and
13:02expectations for something that you are
13:04probably not going to come through with
13:06at the level of deep feeling.
13:09And everyone is well aware of that.
13:12Is a Hintergedanke. You know, you know
13:14it in the back of your mind.
13:17And so, you build yourself increasingly
13:19into a wall-to-wall trap.
13:25And
13:26so, the mutual hostility grows worse and
13:30worse and worse, so that one
13:31psychologist was recently known to ask a
13:33patient, "With whom are you in love
13:35against?"
13:38>> [laughter]
13:44>> The most awkward cause form of falling
13:46in love
13:47is
13:48between
13:49people who are already married to
13:51someone else.
13:54And because you see this is a
13:56cataclysmic and disruptive experience in
13:58our present social order,
14:00and
14:01we know of I mean Victorian novels. A
14:04lot of people are still living out
14:05Victorian novels.
14:07But in Victorian novels, the great thing
14:10is
14:11where
14:12a couple madly in love with each other
14:14say to each other, "Well,
14:17it's best for us that we don't see each
14:18other anymore.
14:20This is becoming bigger than either of
14:21us,
14:22>> [laughter]
14:26>> and so this this
14:29fantastically mad experience is denied,
14:33swept under the rug,
14:35and strangled.
14:38>> [laughter]
14:40>> Uh what should one do?
14:43Well, as I've often said, I'm not a
14:45preacher,
14:46and therefore I
14:48don't know what you should do.
14:51Uh but I would like to make some
14:54reflections on this particular form of
14:55madness, and to raise again a very
14:57disturbing question.
15:00And this disturbing question is as
15:02follows.
15:04Is it only when you are in love with
15:06another person
15:07that you see them as they really are?
15:12And in the ordinary way, when you're not
15:13in love with people, you see only a
15:16fragmented version of that being.
15:19Because when you're in love with
15:20someone, you do indeed see them as a
15:22divine being.
15:24And suppose that's what they are, truly.
15:28And your eyes have by your beloved been
15:31opened, in which case your beloved is
15:34serving to you as a kind of guru,
15:38an initiator.
15:40And that is why there is a form of a
15:43sexual yoga,
15:45based on the idea that man and woman are
15:48to each other as mutual guru and
15:51student.
15:53And through a tremendous
15:56outpouring of psychic energy in total
15:58devotion and worship to this other
16:00person, who is respectively the goddess
16:02or the god,
16:03uh you realize by
16:06uh total fusion and contact with the
16:08other organism,
16:10uh you go down to the divine center in
16:14them, and it bounces back, and you
16:15discover your own.
16:17Or you could put it in this way, which
16:19is another aspect of it.
16:21That by falling in love
16:24and
16:25regarding falling in love not just as a
16:28sort of um
16:30sexual infatuation because it's always
16:33more than that, isn't it?
16:35Uh
16:37I mean, you you can
16:39have
16:40great sexual enjoyment with a
16:43pleasant friend,
16:44you know?
16:46But you may do so simply because he or
16:49she appeals to your aesthetic senses.
16:54But when you fall in love, it's much
16:56more serious involvement. You just
16:58cannot forget this person.
17:01You feel miserable when not in their
17:03presence. You're always yearning, "Let's
17:06see more of each other. Let's get
17:07together. Let's
17:08We're completely entangled."
17:11And then you see, you've actually a kind
17:13of a what I would call spiritual element
17:15has been introduced.
17:17And
17:18the Hindus were sensible enough to
17:20realize that this
17:23was
17:25a means of
17:27awakening, enlightenment.
17:29And therefore, it was
17:32surrounded
17:34with a sort of religious ritual,
17:39meditative art,
17:43with a form of sexual yoga
17:48that is designed
17:50to allow the feeling of mutual love
17:54to the extent of grand passion
17:58to have an extremely fitting fulfillment
18:01and expression.
18:05Falling in love
18:07is a thing that strikes
18:10like lightning
18:13and is therefore extremely analogous
18:17to the mystical vision.
18:22We don't know how really people attain
18:25the mystical vision.
18:29There is not as yet a very clear
18:32rationale as to how it happens.
18:34Because we do know that it is open to
18:37many people who never did anything to
18:39look for it.
18:41Many people, especially in adolescence,
18:44have had the mystical vision all of a
18:45sudden without the slightest warning and
18:48with no previous interest in that kind
18:50of thing.
18:52On the other hand, many people who have
18:54practiced yoga or Zen disciplines or
18:58what you will for years and years and
19:00years have never seen it.
19:03And uh
19:06in both classes, there are of course
19:08exceptions.
19:09There are those who have never had the
19:11spontaneous experience and there are
19:12those who through yoga or Zen have
19:15attained this insight.
19:18But as yet, we are not clear as to why
19:20it comes about.
19:21And if there is any method of attaining
19:23it, the best one is probably to give up
19:25the whole idea of getting it.
19:31But you see, it is completely
19:33unpredictable.
19:35And so it is in that way
19:38like falling in love.
19:42Capricious
19:43and therefore crazy.
19:46But if you should be so fortunate
19:50as to encounter either of these
19:52experiences,
19:54it seems to me to be
19:56a total denial of life to refuse it.
20:03And what we therefore have to
20:06admit in our society so that we can
20:09contain this kind of madness,
20:12we must be far more realistic about
20:16the marriage arrangement
20:19so that it can contain the possibility
20:22of falling in love.
20:25When you base marriage, you see, on
20:27falling in love,
20:29and you go into a pseudo love affair,
20:32which is simply hot pants,
20:35and set up a rigid family
20:38in which you expect of the other person
20:40that they will uh
20:43always be in love with you,
20:46and then
20:47in that context, you go and fall in
20:50love,
20:52then your falling in love is of
20:54necessity disruptive of the marriage and
20:56of the family.
21:00But you see, it could only disrupt it
21:03because the love relationship between
21:05the two partners was false.
21:08Was pretended.
21:13But if
21:14uh marriage were based more on the old
21:16idea of the
21:19the reasonable contract between two
21:21people to bring up children,
21:23who are maybe uh expected at the best to
21:26be good friends,
21:30and to
21:31allow each other
21:34to be persons, that is to say, in the
21:37ordinary sense of the word person, to
21:39have their own freedom,
21:41then if love strikes,
21:44uh it is tolerated within this
21:46arrangement.
21:48Provided you not going to be so
21:50unreasonable as the go on to say,
21:52"Well, I have since I've fallen in love
21:54with somebody else, I must marry them."
21:56Well, that's a perfectly ridiculous.
22:01And you see, in this way, we can think
22:03about and structure the necessary stable
22:06social institution of family of some
22:09kind
22:10without it being constantly threatened
22:13of uh foundering on the rocks of love.
22:20Now, you see, this this then means that
22:22when when people marry,
22:24if they take uh
22:26any vows at all to each other,
22:29instead of
22:30saying that they will always be true to
22:33each other in the sense of meaning I
22:35will always love you,
22:38it means I will be true to you in the
22:40sense of I will always be truthful to
22:42you.
22:44I will not pretend that my feelings
22:46towards you are other than what they
22:48are.
22:50Because I marry you because I think that
22:53you are a reasonable person to live
22:55with, and therefore I want you to be
22:57you. I don't want you to be someone
22:58else.
23:00I don't want you to be a rubber stamp of
23:01me. How boring that would be.
23:05So, it is a really an arrangement not of
23:08as the
23:09>> [clears throat]
23:10>> we always say jokingly, "Did you get the
23:12ball and chain on him?"
23:15But an arrangement in which people set
23:17each other free,
23:19and
23:20make an alliance to cooperate with each
23:22other in certain ways.
23:25Now, if it should so occur that they are
23:28of immense sexual attraction to each
23:30other, so much the better.
23:33But this should not be a primary factor
23:35in entering into marriage.
23:38Admittedly, you must be to a certain
23:40extent attracted to each other,
23:42otherwise there will be no progeny.
23:45But um
23:50But this is a this is seems to me to be
23:51a sensible and reasonable view.
23:54And just because it is sensible and
23:56reasonable, it can accommodate what is
23:58not sensible and reasonable, which is
24:00falling in love.
24:04We should regard then marriage as if
24:06especially if it should possibly be
24:09called holy matrimony,
24:12as
24:13a mutual setting free of two people
24:16to live together in freedom,
24:19and therefore in responsibility.
24:21Because the present situation, although
24:24it's pretending to be responsible, is in
24:26fact extremely irresponsible.
24:29Because it is
24:31dishonesty
24:32with respect to the way you feel towards
24:35another person.
24:38Well, now really when we go back then to
24:40falling in love
24:43and say it's crazy.
24:46Falling.
24:48You see? We don't say rising into love.
24:53There is in it the idea of the fall.
24:56And
24:57it is goes back as a matter of fact to
24:59extremely fundamental things.
25:02That
25:04there is always a curious
25:08tie at some point
25:10between the fall
25:13and the creation.
25:16Taking this ghastly risk
25:20is the condition of there being life.
25:25You see for all
25:27life
25:29is an act of faith and an act of gamble.
25:34The moment you take a step
25:37you do so on an act of faith because you
25:39don't really know that the floor is not
25:40going to give under your feet.
25:43The moment you take a journey, what an
25:44act of faith.
25:46The moment you enter into any kind of
25:48human undertaking in relationship, what
25:50an act of faith.
25:52You've given yourself up.
25:55But this is the most powerful thing that
25:57can be done. Surrender.
25:59See, and love is an act of surrender to
26:02another person.
26:04Total abandonment.
26:07I give myself to you.
26:09Take me. Do anything you like with me.
26:11See?
26:14So
26:16that's quite mad because you see it's
26:18letting things get out of control.
26:20All sensible people keep things in
26:21control.
26:24Watch it. Watch it. Watch it.
26:26Security.
26:28Vigilance.
26:30Watch it.
26:32Police, watch it. Guards, watch it.
26:34Who's going to watch the guards?
26:40So,
26:42actually, therefore, the the the course
26:44of wisdom,
26:46what is really sensible, uh is to let
26:48go. Uh is to commit oneself, to give
26:51oneself up, and that's quite mad. So, we
26:53come to the strange conclusion that in
26:55madness lies sanity. [music]
27:01>> [music]
27:05>> Today's podcast was brought to you by
27:07the Alan Watts Organization and [music]
27:09the Be Here Now Podcast Network.
27:12For further information about the spoken
27:14works of Alan Watts, please visit us at
27:17alanwatts.org.
27:18Thank you. This has been [music]
27:20Alan Watts in Being in the Way, the Alan
27:23Watts Podcast.
27:28>> [music]
27:35[music]

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