Alan Bates writes to Post Office offering Horizon Help — Transcript

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1. 0:00So, we're going to jump back into the
2. 0:01testimony of Alan Bates to the post
3. 0:02office horizon inquiry and look at the
4. 0:04letter that he wrote in December 2000.
5. 0:07So, just a mere couple of months after
6. 0:09Horizon was installed in his system and
7. 0:11he suffered a 6,000 shortfall alleged by
8. 0:15the Horizon system. And it details
9. 0:17exactly what he's managed to find out
10. 0:18and also the difficulties that he's
11. 0:20having with the Horizon system,
12. 0:21including offering to help the post
13. 0:23office out. So, what happened? Let's
14. 0:25jump into the inquiry. The first thing
15. 0:27you did was to write a detailed letter
16. 0:29to the post office about it.
17. 0:30I did.
18. 0:31Can we look at that please? Poll 404598
19. 0:37at page 134 please. We can see this is
20. 0:40dated the 19th of December 2000. So
21. 0:44about 6 days after the balancing issue
22. 0:46emerged and again about two and a bit
23. 0:49months after the installation of Horizon
24. 0:52at your branch. And um it it must be
25. 0:55noted I think very early in the life of
26. 0:59the Horizon system taken as a whole.
27. 1:01Would you agree?
28. 1:01Yes.
29. 1:03So only one year into really Horizon
30. 1:05being rolled out, maybe a tad more and
31. 1:08only a couple of months since Mr. Bates
32. 1:10had the Horizon system actually
33. 1:13installed in his office. So let's have a
34. 1:15look at this.
35. 1:17You'll see that the heading of it is um
36. 1:19Horizon Faults. Can we read the letter
37. 1:22together? Because this sets out um what
38. 1:25might be an important account early in
39. 1:27the life of Horizon. Uh you refer back
40. 1:30in the first paragraph to a um a
41. 1:33conversation and um as
42. 1:38um is good practice. You confirmed it in
43. 1:40detail in writing. You say the balance
44. 1:42at this office on the 13th was not only
45. 1:45very stressful but also very worrying.
46. 1:48The evidence that appeared during that
47. 1:49day proved beyond any doubt that the
48. 1:52horizon system cannot be relied on upon
49. 1:55to give 100% accurate figures. The
50. 1:58problem which was highlighted to this
51. 2:00office that day was with regard to gyro
52. 2:02deposits and at one point the weekly
53. 2:04returns were showing a variance to the
54. 2:06addition of the daily returns of over
55. 2:09£6,000.
56. 2:10So not the pennies that could be stored
57. 2:12in a tin, £6,000. This is only 2 months
58. 2:15after he had the Horizon system
59. 2:17installed. Having the foresight to put
60. 2:20this all in writing as well was a stroke
61. 2:24of uh genius really knowing what has
62. 2:27happened since and possibly one of the
63. 2:29reasons why the post office decided not
64. 2:33to pursue this very early case.
65. 2:36The whole of that afternoon was spent
66. 2:38making a number of phone calls to the
67. 2:40different helplines, one of almost 1
68. 2:42hour long, and kept two of the three
69. 2:44terminals, producing nothing but reports
70. 2:47at a peak trading time when we had cues
71. 2:49out of the door, although eventually I
72. 2:52did manage to track down the majority of
73. 2:53the money. That said, the cash account
74. 2:56for that week is still showing a
75. 2:58shortage of 118281.
76. 3:01I can without any doubt attribute 36850
77. 3:05of that to gyro items that have been
78. 3:08double entered and that I'm unable to
79. 3:11track because of the way Horizon is set
80. 3:13up. Of the remaining 81431 shortage, I'm
81. 3:18presuming that 40915 of that shortage is
82. 3:22from the previous week that's become
83. 3:23added to the total. This leaves a
84. 3:25difference of 40516
85. 3:28which I am I'm unsure of where it comes
86. 3:31from. It may well be a gyro system error
87. 3:34as might be the previous week's 40915
88. 3:37shortage or it may be something else.
89. 3:39Unfortunately, the current Horizon
90. 3:41system does not let you access previous
91. 3:43transactions adequately enough to track
92. 3:46problems with shorts or overs at the end
93. 3:48of the week.
94. 3:50And that's I guess one of the big issues
95. 3:52with this. They've gone from a system
96. 3:54where they can check and verify what's
97. 3:56happening and find any lost money or any
98. 3:59extra money and find actually what it
99. 4:01relates to because it can't be lost or
100. 4:03extra in the normal running of things.
101. 4:06But now they've got Horizon all that
102. 4:08information is obscure from them. They
103. 4:11can't actually get their fingers on it
104. 4:13to understand what's happening.
105. 4:15continuing having spoken to the LA local
106. 4:18branch secretary of the federation of
107. 4:19subpost masters on these problems and
108. 4:22realizing the problems I'm experience
109. 4:24experiencing are being found by others
110. 4:26around the country I do not I really do
111. 4:29not believe it would be unreasonable for
112. 4:30post office network to hold me liable
113. 4:33for losses on the cash account until
114. 4:35such time as 100% guarantee can be given
115. 4:39about the accuracy of Horizon
116. 4:42and that's you know reasonable isn't it
117. 4:44you tell show me that the system's
118. 4:47working because I know it's not because
119. 4:49these numbers make no sense and and you
120. 4:52know I'll be liable but whilst the
121. 4:53system isn't working properly I'm not
122. 4:55going to be liable for the losses it's a
123. 4:57perfectly reasonable
124. 5:00position to adopt there and if you
125. 5:03actually think back to the future
126. 5:06letters that we've already seen 10 15
127. 5:08years later by other subost masters
128. 5:10being asked to explain why and where the
129. 5:13money's gone
130. 5:15They couldn't have asked for a more
131. 5:17comprehensive outline of the situation
132. 5:19to be able to investigate this right
133. 5:21from the start in December 2000.
134. 5:24I've been hoping to leave any comments
135. 5:26in writing about Horizon until the
136. 5:28office is quieter in January and then
137. 5:30write a detailed submission about the
138. 5:32costs we've incurred with it around
139. 5:34£1,000. The problems with the counter
140. 5:36staff working with money and stamp books
141. 5:39on chairs or on the shelf behind them.
142. 5:41the very poor layout of the screen and
143. 5:44menus, the slowness of the printers, the
144. 5:46lack of report writing facilities, the
145. 5:48chaotic end of day and end of week
146. 5:50procedures, and the problems of having
147. 5:52to do quote office work at a terminal on
148. 5:54the counter. Given time, I shall produce
149. 5:57a report for you. Please do not think
150. 5:59that I'm being nothing but negative
151. 6:01about the system. I'm a firm believer in
152. 6:03the way forward through such a system,
153. 6:06but bear in mind my comments are made by
154. 6:08someone who's had considerable
155. 6:09experience of electronic point of sale
156. 6:12systems before joining the post office
157. 6:14in 1998. I first began working with them
158. 6:17in 1986 and used a variety of systems.
159. 6:20Reading on, so I do have some insight
160. 6:22into those systems and I would gladly be
161. 6:25willing to offer constructive feedback
162. 6:27if asked. with regard to the current
163. 6:29deficit showing on our cash account for
164. 6:31last week. How do you want me to
165. 6:33progress this week's balance? Should I
166. 6:35just roll it through and see what
167. 6:36happens or what? And then you ask for
168. 6:39assistance. So in that letter, you make
169. 6:42it clear on a number of occasions that
170. 6:44Horizon is fault at fault and you
171. 6:47explain in detail why so far as you
172. 6:49could tell that was so. Is that right?
173. 6:51That's correct.
174. 6:52You tell the post office that you're not
175. 6:54alone and that this was happening around
176. 6:56the country.
177. 6:57That's what I understood. Yeah.
178. 6:59Did that information come from your
179. 7:00local branch secretary at the NFSP?
180. 7:02It did.
181. 7:03Was that Dave Foster?
182. 7:04It was Dave Foster.
183. 7:06So really from a post office point of
184. 7:08view, you couldn't have asked for this
185. 7:10issue to surface early on with someone
186. 7:13better, could you? They're explaining
187. 7:15clearly the problems you have. They're
188. 7:16offering to help. They're saying they've
189. 7:17got experience of these kind of systems,
190. 7:20things that you wouldn't necessarily
191. 7:22expect a subpostmaster to, you know, to
192. 7:25have as a requirement of the job. Yet,
193. 7:27they're offering that expertise and
194. 7:29experience to try to help you fix a
195. 7:31system that they believe in because they
196. 7:33see it as the way forward. So, why
197. 7:35wasn't that offer of help ever taken up?
198. 7:37And you ask a question, what should I do
199. 7:39at the end?
200. 7:40Yes.
201. 7:40Did you ever get a reply, a written
202. 7:42reply to the raft of the points?
203. 7:44Sorry, no, I never did. No reply to this
204. 7:46letter at all.
205. 7:47Never.