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Alain de Botton: On Love | Digital Season — Transcript

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0:04Thank you. Thank you so much. What a
0:06pleasure to be back in Australia, to be
0:08back at the Opera House. Thank you so
0:09much for coming out tonight. Um as Anne
0:12has just said, I've written a novel, but
0:14I don't want to talk particularly,
0:17specifically about the novel. Please buy
0:18it after if you're feeling inclined, but
0:20what I really want to do is to talk
0:22about some of the ideas behind the
0:24novel. And um
0:27sometimes people say to me, you know,
0:27what why did you even bother to write a
0:29novel? I thought you were supposed to be
0:30a non-fiction writer. And the reason I
0:33wrote a novel is that I believe that
0:35many of our ideas on love come from
0:39reading novels, also songs, films, et
0:42cetera. But essentially, we are very
0:44shaped by the love narratives that we
0:47read. And this could seem a little
0:49cruel. We we tend to think that we love
0:52spontaneously, that we're not influenced
0:54by what we read and by what we see, but
0:56I think that we are. We love within a
0:59very historical, social context. There's
1:02that lovely biting aphorism from La
1:04Rochefoucauld. He says, "There are some
1:06people who would never have fallen in
1:08love if they hadn't heard there was such
1:11a thing." That's a little extreme, but
1:14you get the the idea that really when we
1:17love, we are taking a lot of our cues
1:19from the outside world. We honor certain
1:22feelings that we experience because
1:24other people are telling us to honor
1:26them. We suppress other feelings because
1:28people have told us not to pay them
1:30particular uh attention.
1:33Now, we are nowadays firmly in a very
1:36distinctive era in the history of love.
1:39We are living in the era of romanticism.
1:43Romanticism is an intellectual movement
1:45that began in the salons, studies,
1:48garrets of European poets, novelists,
1:50writers uh in the end middle end of the
1:5318th century. And nowadays, even if
1:56you've never heard of a single romantic
1:58poet or novelist from any garret in old
2:00Europe, and you're just having your love
2:02life here in Sydney, you are influenced,
2:05because we all are, by romanticism. So,
2:07whether you can't Whether you don't
2:09necessarily know about it or feel it or
2:10touch it, it is all around us in the
2:12ether. We are living, ladies and
2:14gentlemen, in the era of romanticism.
2:16Now, what does romanticism tell us about
2:19love? It has a very distinctive set of
2:22arguments about what love is like, what
2:24we should expect from love, and how
2:26relationships should go. And let me run
2:28you through a few of those romantic
2:32assumptions.
2:33I think the first and most central
2:36assumption is that for all of us out
2:38there, there is, most definitely, a
2:41soulmate. We may not have met them
2:43already. We may be swiping left, right,
2:46furiously in order to try
2:48and locate them. They exist, and
2:50eventually, if we keep going hard
2:52enough, we will find them. And when we
2:54find them, our soul will fuse with
2:55theirs. All areas that had previously
2:58been confused and lonely will be
3:00redeemed. We will no longer feel
3:02ourselves wordless, agonized,
3:04melancholic before the mysteries of
3:06existence. We have found a true friend,
3:09and loneliness will be banished. This,
3:12ladies and gentlemen, is the person
3:13waiting for us somewhere out there, the
3:15soulmate.
3:17Um how are we going to find this person?
3:19Well, big question. Um the dominant
3:22answer of romanticism is by instinct.
3:25You know, for most of history, the way
3:27that people were matched up was by the
3:30elders of the community, by parents, by
3:33other people than the couple themselves.
3:35They was It was what was known as a
3:37marriage of reason, and there were
3:39reasonable criteria, so-called
3:41reasonable criteria, which is maybe that
3:43you had a goat and they had a sheep, or
3:45you had a plot of land and they had a
3:46plot of adjoining plot of land, or
3:48whatever it was. And it was on that
3:49basis that these so-called dynastic
3:51marriages were made.
3:54And that was the way in which people
3:55married have married for thousands of
3:58years, really since the beginning of
3:59time. But along comes romanticism and
4:01says no, we're going to marry in a
4:03different way. We're going to marry by
4:05instinct. And the instinct is that
4:07somewhere along the line you will feel a
4:08special feeling, very very special
4:10feeling inside, kind of excitement. And
4:12you don't know when it will strike you.
4:14Maybe you're at the bar, maybe you're at
4:15the swimming pool, maybe you're just
4:17waiting in line for something, but
4:18you'll spot somebody and without
4:20necessarily knowing too much about them,
4:22the other romantics were quite keen on
4:23it happening without knowing anything
4:25about them other than simply seeing
4:26their face, you will know that's your
4:28soulmate.
4:29And so that special feeling has become
4:32venerated. And whoever First of all, you
4:34don't question that special feeling. So
4:36you know, if you said to your parents,
4:37I've met somebody and they go, "Oh
4:38right, tell me tell me what" You just
4:39say, "I've had that special feeling."
4:40And everyone just, you know, the waters
4:42part and the couple moves forward
4:44because there's been that special
4:45feeling. So once the special feeling is
4:47announced, you know, you raise the flag,
4:49the special feeling has happened and
4:50that's terrific.
4:52Of course, if you don't feel that
4:53special feeling, it's a little bit
4:55embarrassing. Something wrong with me,
4:57etc. So you may start to fake the
4:59special feeling. You kind of like
5:00someone but you fake that you've had
5:02this romantic
5:04special feeling.
5:06Um
5:06and so romanticism is very into the
5:08notion of the crush and the immediate
5:11sensation of certainty that you've met
5:13someone
5:14very special. Romanticism goes hand in
5:16hand with the developments of the
5:17railways in Europe in the 19th century.
5:21And an awful lot of these meetings
5:23happen on trains in fiction.
5:26Even in Russian fiction alone, you could
5:28build a library of stories in which the
5:30hero and heroine meet on a train. And
5:32without much knowledge, as I say, just
5:34the sight maybe of an ankle, an elbow,
5:36the curvature of a cheek, you will know
5:39that's your soulmate. And that's how it
5:41it begins. So that's how the That's how
5:42you're going to find your life partner.
5:45Um the romantics are very keen on the
5:48notion of happily ever after, that love
5:50is not just a passing phase, it is
5:52forever, um, till death do us part.
5:55Strikingly, um, many of the Romantics
5:57die quite young.
5:59And, um,
6:01so often the story begins, couple
6:02formantly in love,
6:05some little little cough and then
6:06tuberculosis and uh uh uh
6:09and it's, you know, it's beautiful love
6:10story, but it does end after a few
6:12months. But nevertheless, it's forever
6:14in a in a sense. And, um, Romantics are
6:16also very keen on suicide, ending things
6:19dramatically. So, death has a curious
6:21relationship with love in the Romantic,
6:24uh, uh, point of view.
6:26The other essential thing about the
6:28Romantics is that, um, generally no one
6:30really has a job. Uh, none of the
6:32Romantics really have jobs, so they can
6:34devote a lot of time to love. And
6:37they're spending a lot of time just in
6:38each other's arms and also going for
6:40walks. Nature is incredibly important
6:43for the Romantics. Um,
6:44going out into nature for long, long
6:46walks. Very particular places,
6:47waterfalls, very romantic, uh, place.
6:50Also, places where the ocean, uh, meets
6:52the land, dramatic cliffs, pounding of
6:55seas, very quintessentially romantic,
6:57uh, places. Romantic times of day, uh,
7:00dusk is a quintessentially romantic
7:02time, especially when, you know, you got
7:04a a layer of clouds and the underside of
7:06the clouds are lit up by the shafts of
7:07the dying sun turning the sky a purpley
7:10pinky hue, very romantic, uh, sort of,
7:13uh, moment, a moment to enforce love
7:15through the help of of nature.
7:18Um, the Romantics have a very, um,
7:21distinctive take on sex. Uh, people
7:24obviously been having sex for, um,
7:26all of human history and, um, there's
7:28been some love, but what the Romantics
7:29do is a remarkable fusion of love and
7:32sex.
7:33Uh, they basically consecrate sex as the
7:36summit of love and the ultimate
7:38expression of love. So far from being
7:41merely a mechanical,
7:43uh, action, it becomes this most sincere
7:45expression of your feelings for another
7:48person. Almost divine expression of
7:50tenderness for another person. Very
7:53beautiful. It has a slight drawback,
7:55which is that it turns adultery into a
7:58tragedy, a catastrophe. Because if you
8:02believe, as the romantics do, that love
8:04that sex is the crowning expression of
8:06love, then any interest outside of the
8:08couple will be catastrophic in nature.
8:11And that's why almost every great novel
8:14of the 19th century in Europe is about
8:16adultery in one form or another,
8:18starting with, uh, Flaubert's Madame
8:20Bovary, moving on to, uh, Tolstoy's Anna
8:23Karenina, and on and on. Uh, people have
8:26been having adultery for all of human
8:27history. It's been happening all the
8:29time. But what's new is the weight
8:31that's put on it. And it, as I say, it
8:33is a violation of everything that the
8:36romantics believe that love is.
8:39Now,
8:40I should say that many of these romantic
8:42ideas are very beautiful. They're very
8:45exciting, and we all live through them,
8:48and, um, it would be naive to, um, some
8:51way dismiss them as, um, irrelevant to
8:54the way we live. They are everywhere,
8:56and they are at the center of how we
8:58approach love. But I also want to insist
9:01that romanticism has been a catastrophe
9:03for our capacity to have good long-term
9:06relationships. And if we want to have a
9:09chance of succeeding at love, we will
9:11have to be disloyal to many of the
9:13romantic emotions that got us into
9:15relationships in the first place.
9:18Romanticism has spelt trouble for our
9:20capacity to endure and thrive in
9:23long-term relationships. Why do I say
9:26that? Well,
9:27let me run you through a few of the
9:29areas that I believe that romanticism
9:32has spelt difficulty for us in, uh,
9:35relationships. Um,
9:38so romanticism replaced an earlier
9:40vision of human nature, which tended to
9:44stress how fragile, broken, and very
9:47sinful we all were. An old Christian
9:50idea. Um, and romanticism comes along
9:53and dismisses this attitude as
9:55hopelessly pessimistic and insists
9:57instead on the purity and good nature of
10:01every human being. For the romantic The
10:02romantics place an awful emphasis an
10:04awful lot of emphasis on children. And
10:06children for the romantics are always
10:07good. They're always sweet. It begins
10:09with Jean-Jacques Rousseau in the
10:11mid-18th century. The child is the
10:13purest expression of humankind and the
10:16only thing that makes a child bad is
10:17society. Only society corrupts children,
10:20but basically it's a sign that we are
10:22born good. And the older view, which was
10:25associated with um, Christian
10:27theologians like St. Augustine, which
10:29stressed the fundamental sinfulness, you
10:31know, St. Augustine argued that all of
10:34us bear within us the original sin of
10:36Adam. And therefore all of us, it's good
10:39to speak like this at a pulpit um, to an
10:41audience, but but all of us
10:44all of us are sinners or potential
10:46sinners and therefore need to be at the
10:48mercy of others and of the divine in
10:51order I'm a secular Jew, but um, the
10:53divine in order to uh, uh,
10:56to endure life. Now, romanticism does
10:59away with this and says to us that all
11:01of us are angelic by nature. The
11:03interesting thing is that romanticism
11:05coincides with the decline in organized
11:07religion. So just as religion is
11:09declining, romanticism rises and is in
11:12many ways a replacement, a secular
11:14alternative. So when we get together in
11:16love, you know, what's fascinating is
11:17the use the beginning of the use of the
11:18word angel to refer not to those winged
11:21creatures up in the sky, but to refer to
11:23other human beings. And there's a marked
11:25increase of this in the age of
11:26romanticism. And nowadays, of course,
11:28many of us will cheerfully call our
11:29partner an So we are all of us in a
11:31sense, in through the lens of
11:33romanticism, good people. Our wings have
11:36been temporarily put aside, but
11:37essentially we're we're pretty perfect
11:39people, not particularly tainted by
11:40original sin.
11:42Now, I think this is highly troubling
11:44for relationships because it leads to
11:46that absolute problematic dynamic within
11:48any relationship, which is
11:50self-righteousness. If you think that
11:52you're quite perfect and that your
11:53partner is quite perfect, too, that's
11:55trouble anyway. And if you start a
11:57relationship, you'll soon start hitting
11:58upon things which will lead you to think
12:00that actually maybe they're not that
12:02perfect. Now, what do you do with that
12:03feeling if you're operating against an
12:05ideology that says that everyone and
12:07that your partner, particularly, is by
12:08nature good? Very unhelpful backdrop in
12:11which to negotiate the troubles of
12:13relationships. It's far better, I
12:15believe, to insist that all of us are,
12:18in various ways, deeply, and I don't
12:20mean this in any way in an insult,
12:21deeply crazy. I may not know
12:25I may not know exactly how you're crazy.
12:27I can tell you later how I'm crazy. I
12:28won't. Well, I might. Um
12:30But but basically, all of us, you know,
12:31none of us get through the gauntlet of
12:33early childhood, adolescence, et cetera,
12:36with our sanity entirely intact. We are
12:38all of us warped, distorted in very
12:41distinctive ways. It may take us 50
12:42years to work out exactly how we're
12:44distorted, but we are distorted. Um and
12:47this is a fundamental piece of knowledge
12:49which we should be taking with us into
12:52relationships with a big warning sign
12:54over us. Now, why are we so unable to
12:57conceive of ourselves as damaged and
12:59crazy and therefore so prone to
13:01self-righteousness? Well,
13:03part of the problem is that all of us
13:05have very low levels of self-knowledge.
13:07And self-knowledge is really, really
13:09hard to come by, partly because there's
13:11almost a conspiracy of silence around
13:14us. People don't quite tell us um what
13:16they think of us, and um therefore we go
13:19through life where the average person
13:21who's met us for 20 minutes has a deeper
13:23insight into many of our flaws than we
13:24might achieve over a lifetime.
13:27Um
13:28Why Why don't people tell us this? Well,
13:30there's really no motive for them to
13:32tell us this at many stages. Our parents
13:34are not going to tell us certain things
13:36that they know. They can see things
13:37about us, but they're not going to tell
13:38us because they're very kind, they wish
13:39us well. It's not really their business.
13:41They're not going to go into it, and
13:42maybe they're blinded by their own
13:44affection for us. Um there's our
13:46friends. Well, of course our friends are
13:47not going to tell us certain things
13:49about our characters, the ways in which
13:50we're difficult in particular, because
13:52all they really want from us is a
13:54pleasant evening out. They just
13:57They don't care. They don't You really
13:59have to care about someone to be
14:01bothered to go into all that stuff about
14:03their true character. And our friends
14:04certainly, you know, they can't be
14:05bothered. Uh they don't They don't like
14:07us enough. Um
14:10So, it leaves then that other category,
14:12our exes. Well, our exes, you could
14:14expect that they will somewhere along
14:16the lines have have told us, but the
14:18thing on the whole, it's not really
14:19worth their while either. And so, they
14:21tend to take their leave by saying
14:23things like they need to spend more time
14:24on their own, they need to develop their
14:25character, they'd like to go traveling.
14:27Nonsense. Course not. They see certain
14:29things about you, but again, they're not
14:31going to go through it. They can't be
14:32bothered. They just want out. Let
14:34somebody else sort that out.
14:36So,
14:38So,
14:40um
14:41So, the thing is that we we go through
14:43life um not really knowing. I mean, it's
14:45very tender and poignant how sometimes
14:48um some of us feel, probably some of you
14:50in the audience feel, that broadly
14:52speaking, you're quite easy to live
14:54with. I mean, does anyone Does anyone
14:56here think that they're kind of broadly
14:58speaking easy to live with if only they
14:59met the right person? Like
15:02There are a few people A few people, you
15:03know, that's a that's a very uh a
15:05poignant combination whereby a very
15:07romantic combination. I spent my early
15:09uh
15:1020s absolutely convinced that the only
15:13thing that was missing uh was really the
15:14right person. And so long as I met the
15:16right person, then all uh would would be
15:18well. So, this notion that we might be
15:20easy to live with is um
15:23uh uh
15:23deeply misleading and should be stamped
15:25out. Of course, we're not everybody from
15:27close up is trouble.
15:29And we need we need we need we need to
15:31to to put this in mind, bear this in
15:33mind. If I was running the world,
15:36one of the key questions that we would
15:37always ask each other on an early dinner
15:39date without anything pejorative being
15:40meant by it is how are you crazy? So,
15:43I'm I'm crazy like this. How about you?
15:45And that and that we'd be expected to
15:46have a really thoughtful and kind of
15:49well-thought-through non-defensive,
15:51non-hysterical answer to that question
15:53to be able to share with another person.
15:55Think how much time we would save. We
15:58don't need people in relationships to be
16:00perfect. We need them to have a handle
16:03on their imperfections and to be able to
16:05warn us and prepare us for the more
16:08noxious sides of their personalities
16:10outside of those critical moments when
16:12those
16:13personality distortions have deeply
16:15upset us.
16:16But, it's very hard to do and most of
16:18the time we come upon discoveries of
16:20other people at moments when those
16:21discoveries have pained us deeply and
16:23therefore we are not likely to be in any
16:25way sympathetic. So, the calm
16:27explanation of one's insanities to
16:29another person is one of the greatest
16:31gifts and I think one of the best
16:32wedding presents that any of us could
16:35could give one another is a is a a large
16:36book called, you know, my insanities
16:39that you would give. Each person would
16:40give my insanities to to their partner
16:43and think how much time I think we would
16:46we would save. Um
16:49You know, the other thing that
16:49romanticism really gets wrong is this
16:51this emphasis on instinct, right? So,
16:53you know, the old marriage, marriage of
16:55reason, marriage by the family, etc. And
16:57then, you know, the romantics tell us
16:58there's this marriage by instinct, that
17:00special feeling. Well,
17:02the thing about it is that, you know,
17:05you don't need to accept or even know
17:07much about psychoanalysis and
17:09psychotherapy to just take on board the
17:11one key central idea of psychotherapy,
17:14which is the The that we love as adults
17:17is a reflection and deeply connected to
17:21the way that we learned about love as
17:22children. That is the foundation stone
17:24of psychotherapy. So, you look at an
17:26adult you look at how you are in adult
17:28relationships and there are million
17:29connections that you can make with how
17:31we learned about love as children.
17:33Now, the problem with this is that the
17:35way that we learned about love as
17:37children is likely to have been a bit
17:39problematic. Um it's likely that we
17:41received affection certainly, um but
17:44that in one way or another, without
17:46necessarily meaning to, our parents did
17:48us a great disservice. In some ways they
17:50damaged us without necessarily meaning
17:52to. Um and this has very particular
17:55consequences for our capacity to find
17:58love as adults because often what we're
18:01trying to do in adult love is refined a
18:05kind of love that we knew as children.
18:08But the kind of love that we knew as
18:10children was not necessarily
18:11problem-free. Indeed, it was very
18:14particularly and interestingly distorted
18:17and laden with all sorts of
18:18difficulties. And these become the new
18:20criteria which we search for in our
18:23adult partners. So, when people say that
18:26in love, what they're looking for is
18:27someone to make them happy, to make them
18:29content, to bring them happiness, we
18:31can't necessarily believe them. Really,
18:33what we're searching for when we search
18:35for an adult partner is someone who
18:37feels familiar.
18:39And very often the kind of people that
18:41we meet don't feel familiar in the level
18:45of care, generosity, and goodness that
18:47they're bringing to us. It just feels a
18:49little bit odd. We think, "I don't
18:50necessarily feel at home with this kind
18:52of treatment." You know how it is when
18:54you sometimes set up a friend and um
18:56on paper, uh you know, two people are
18:58completely perfect, you know, the two
19:00CVs match exactly and you set them up
19:02and then, you know, you have hopeful um
19:04expectations for the date and then they
19:05come back to you and you say, "You know,
19:07how did it go? How did the date go?" And
19:09they say, uh "I don't know. You know,
19:10they're really nice. I just, you know,
19:12we got so much in common in a way, all
19:14our interests, we do all the same
19:15sports, and read the same books, etc.
19:17But, I don't know, something was
19:18missing. And I don't know, it's
19:20chemistry, something. And very often the
19:22thing is that our unconscious has
19:23recognized that this so-called very nice
19:25person is perfect except for they won't
19:28make us suffer in way in the way that we
19:30expect to be made to suffer in love. So,
19:33they've got to be dismissed. They're
19:34just not going to make me unhappy in the
19:37way that I've learned to expect that
19:39love should make me unhappy.
19:41And, you know, we know the situation in
19:43its most extreme forms. You know,
19:44somebody who can only take someone who
19:46will hit them, who will strike them. But
19:48even without the extremes of violence,
19:50there are many ways in which we are
19:52attracted to people not so much for
19:54their positive sides, but because they
19:55feel, as I say, familiar in the degree
19:58to which they will frustrate certain of
20:00our aspirations for ourselves.
20:03Um, there's another problem for with,
20:05you know, with romanticism. Um,
20:08and that's really to do with the idea of
20:09honesty. You know, romanticism had an
20:11extremely high regard for the concept of
20:15honesty. And that a relationship, the
20:17whole point of a relationship is that
20:18you can be honest with another human
20:20being. Most of the time we've got to lie
20:22all the time about who we are, what we
20:24feel. How are you? I'm fine. We're
20:26breaking down inside, etc. You know,
20:28we're all in tears inside, we're broken.
20:30We've got to put up a front. That's what
20:31society demands of us. But finally, we
20:33can meet someone and with them the
20:35drawbridge can come down, the walls can
20:37come down, and we can be ourselves. And
20:38they're a wonderful moments in the early
20:40moments of love, in the early phase of
20:42love, when we really do feel that we
20:45have found someone who can accept all of
20:47us and, um, take on board everything
20:50that we are. We need to have no more
20:51secrets. We can be properly ourselves.
20:55And the truth is that being yourself,
20:57fully yourself, around another human
20:59being is a treat that you should
21:01probably spare anyone that you claim to
21:04love. Cuz it's really a little
21:06problematic. Now,
21:08often it goes a bit like this. Um, you
21:11know, there's Look, let's be honest, I
21:13think no no kids in the room. Um,
21:15often it's a little bit around sex. Um,
21:18so in the early days of love, you know,
21:19you've been a bit lonely in all areas
21:21including sex and you meet somebody and
21:23and you say, you know, do you like, you
21:25know, that thing that you you could do
21:27like with with a rope and like
21:29handcuffs and like imagine if Have you
21:31ever been interested and they go, "Wow,
21:33yeah, I've always wanted to try that."
21:34And that's always but I've never dared
21:36tell anyone. And there's that wonderful
21:37sense of intimacy based on the no longer
21:40needing to be shame. We no longer need
21:42to be ashamed of ourselves. We can be
21:44ourselves in the bedroom, etc. And this
21:46is a very ecstatic discovery and it it
21:48really makes us feel so powerful in the
21:51world cuz we we we no longer have to be
21:53a hunch hunchback figure. We can now go
21:55out into the world and and feel that
21:58some of our darkest secrets have
21:59acceptance and endorsement from another
22:01human being. This lovely phase tends to
22:03last about 3 months until
22:06until normally the moment goes like
22:08this. Not the same for everybody but a
22:09version of this tends to happen. So,
22:12you've been sharing everything. You've
22:13been sharing that, you know, the thing
22:14and the thing and the handcuff and and
22:16it's all been fun and then you're
22:18sitting in a cafe with uh, you know,
22:20with your with your lover with whom
22:21you've opened your soul and they've
22:22opened their soul and you spot a really
22:24quite interesting um, member of the
22:26waiting team and you go, "See the waiter
22:28over there? Like wouldn't it be fun if
22:30like, you know, the thing with the you
22:31know, thing that we like do? Imagine
22:32like if they got involved we asked them
22:34to get involved and like a number and
22:35then they could come and then you got
22:37watching and then and then you turn to
22:39your partner and rather than being this
22:41kind of open Do you have a They they
22:43actually look in quite a big state of
22:44distress. And they look kind of kind of
22:46unhappy and miserable and you go,
22:48"Wow, wow, I better stop right there."
22:50And you're at a fork in the road and one
22:51fork in the road leads to the path of
22:53honesty and another path leads to the
22:54path of love. You got a choice to make.
22:57You you you you got a choice to make.
22:59Are you are you going to carry on this
23:01anecdote this this fantasy, or you just
23:03going to shut up? And most of us are
23:06going to shut up at that point. And
23:08that's the beginning of a very
23:09fundamental moment when we realize that
23:11of course we cannot be entirely
23:13ourselves. Not because we're trying to
23:16retain a nasty secret from our partner,
23:19but because in the name of love we
23:21cannot be entirely ourselves. We have to
23:23accept the role of editing because the
23:25full disclosure of who we are and what
23:28we are at every moment to another human
23:30being will destroy them. And therefore
23:33we need in the name of love to hold back
23:36and to edit a lot. None of this
23:38romanticism prepares us for. Indeed it
23:40makes it look like a betrayal. So it
23:41sets up a huge it's a very very
23:43unhelpful backdrop in which this
23:45scenario happens because
23:46romanticism insists on authenticity.
23:48It's by being totally authentic that you
23:50are true to love. Anything else is a
23:53betrayal of love. And well, the facts on
23:55the ground are seriously I believe in
23:58conflict with that romantic commandment
24:00and causes a lot of difficulties.
24:03Um
24:04I'm not through with the my reservations
24:06about romanticism.
24:08Another thing about romanticism that
24:09never really tells talks about is
24:11romanticism never really talks about the
24:13practical side of life. Um in the 19th
24:16century no one no romantic poet, writer,
24:19artist, etc. ever mentions laundry. No
24:22there's absolutely no mention of the
24:25fact that every couple who's been
24:26together any amount of time will have to
24:28spend a lot of time doing laundry,
24:29housework, cleaning, uh raising
24:31children, etc. This just goes
24:33unmentioned. Um
24:35and this causes us real difficulties
24:37because it sets up an expectation that
24:39you know intelligent, sensitive, soulful
24:41people don't really bother about these
24:43things. And therefore that there's no
24:46particular emphasis on making an
24:47accommodation, a preparation for some of
24:50the difficulties that might come in this
24:52area.
24:53So at some point in a relationship um
24:55a version of this happens. This kind of
24:57scenario happens. Not exactly this, but
24:59a version of this happens, which is that
25:01a couple who, you know, are very much
25:03committed to love and, you know,
25:05disagree with their parents and some of
25:06their more petty attitudes, the things
25:08like, you know, etc., where the salt and
25:11pepper should go and etc. They, um, they
25:13will suddenly have an argument in the
25:14bathroom that goes a bit like this. One
25:16of the couples will say, um, "What's
25:18that towel doing there?" And the other
25:20person goes, "Oh, I just I just had a
25:21shower." You go, "Yeah, but what's it
25:22doing on the floor?" And it go, "Yeah,
25:24well, I just threw it on the floor
25:25because I I I I got to go and meet
25:26Bill." And you go, "No, no, I know
25:27you've got to meet Bill, but what's it
25:28doing on the floor?"
25:29And and and the other one goes, "Well,
25:31how do you mean, what's it doing on the
25:31floor? It's just on the floor." And
25:33suddenly there's a kind of new tone of
25:34impatience, basically because both
25:36partners think that they're very very
25:37clever and and they're very they're not
25:38petty. They don't want to argue about
25:40petty things like towels on the floor.
25:42That's again, they associate that with
25:43their grandparents or something. You
25:44don't you don't you know, if you're a
25:45true romantic, you don't worry about
25:46these things. You don't make no
25:47accommodation. You are too clever to
25:49have this sort of argument. And when two
25:50people are convinced that they're too
25:52clever to have this sort of argument,
25:53you know the argument will be bitter.
25:55Uh,
25:57and, um,
25:58and and so very often there is no
26:00accommodation uh with this sort this
26:02aspect of life. Um,
26:04you know, think of poor Madame Bovary in
26:06uh Flaubert's novel.
26:08Madame Bovary has been brought up uh in
26:11ideas of love drawn from romantic
26:13fiction. So, she believes that love is
26:14all about guys on horseback and castles
26:17and walks through the mist, etc. And
26:19then she gets married to this quite
26:20nice, but, you know, pretty ordinary,
26:22regular kind of guy, but on the whole
26:23okay. And, um, suddenly she realizes
26:26that a lot of her time has got to be
26:27spent doing the laundry, organizing the
26:29milk and the cheese, and sitting down
26:31with her husband while he's doing the
26:33accounts, and she's supposed to be
26:34organizing the kind of domestic rota in
26:36the evenings and he's reading the
26:37newspaper. And she thinks that her life
26:40has gone terribly wrong, that it's a
26:41disaster. What has happened? She thought
26:43that she was marrying for love, and now
26:45she's ended up with this kind of
26:46domestic situation. And these doubts
26:48unleash a series of uh uh uh uh uh
26:52processes in her mind which will lead
26:53eventually to her suicide and death.
26:55That essentially the belief that the
26:58practical side of life has no place in a
27:01good love life is central to romanticism
27:03and a disaster for our chances of
27:06love.
27:07So, towels, more on that in a minute. Um
27:10The other thing The other thing that the
27:12romantics
27:13very much believe is The romantics
27:16believe that you shouldn't necessarily
27:18talk too much to your lover. And that
27:21talking is often a sign of not really
27:23understanding somebody.
27:25So,
27:26a very privileged space is given in
27:28romanticism to that account that we
27:31sometimes get at the beginning of
27:32relationships that two people have
27:34understood one another without needing
27:36to talk all the time. So, people will
27:38say things like, you know, it was
27:39amazing. You know, we were we were we
27:40were there. We were by the waterfront.
27:42We were chatting. And then, you know,
27:43sometimes we were just quiet because we
27:45just understood. We just We just knew.
27:47You know, I would say one thing and it
27:48was amazing. He knew. You know, he he'd
27:50been there before. She understood. She
27:52It's like we had traveled immediately
27:53down the same path. We don't need to
27:55explain ourselves in the way that I had
27:57to in that horrible last relationship.
27:59In this one, I just I can be myself and
28:01we're a bit
28:02we're a bit wordless.
28:04And the romantics generally believe that
28:05too much analysis, too much putting of
28:08words on top of feelings is a bad thing.
28:10A quintessential romantic belief is that
28:12you destroy feelings and emotions by
28:15thinking too much about them.
28:17I don't know if anybody in the audience
28:19feels Some people feel this that if you
28:21think too much, you break things. That
28:23that That thinking too much is
28:26I should have weeded those people out,
28:27but there may a few people have have
28:29come here nevertheless. This is a
28:30disaster for a philosopher. Like, what?
28:33Hang on.
28:34Nevertheless, there are people
28:36Romantics, I'm being nasty, but look,
28:38we've all We all have that feeling
28:40sometimes that words can can break
28:42things. Now, and so, in a way, one of
28:45One of
28:45stories of love that romantics tell us
28:47is intuitive understanding of one person
28:50by another without the medium of words.
28:53Again, over the long term, a
28:55catastrophe. Short term, charming. Long
28:57term, catastrophe. One of the things
28:59that it leads to is an outbreak of
29:01sulking. Romanticism was responsible for
29:04a worldwide enormous increase in the
29:07prevalence of sulks.
29:08Now, what what is a sulk? A sulk is a
29:12feeling of hurt with another person, a
29:14wound that the other person has given
29:16you that you are not going to explain to
29:19them
29:20for the simple reason that they're
29:22supposed to love you. And if they love
29:24you, they're supposed to know. So, of
29:27course, you could explain what's wrong
29:28with you, um but if you had to explain,
29:30that would be a proof they didn't love
29:31you because love is by its nature
29:34wordless. True love is wordless. And
29:36that's why
29:37let's say you're coming back from the
29:38party where that offensive thing
29:40happened, uh and you're kind of silent
29:42in the car deliberately. You're not
29:43going to say what happened cuz you're
29:45you're a romantic and they should know.
29:46And they say Maybe they make a few
29:48attempts and they go, "Look, is anything
29:49wrong?" No.
29:51Uh and then so you you go up, you know,
29:53you you go up the stairs, you you go
29:54home, you go to your apartment, and uh
29:57they say, you know, "Come come in the
29:58bedroom." And you go, "No." And you go
29:59into the bathroom, you bolt the door,
30:00and they say, "Come on." So, they go and
30:02they're knocking at the door, and they
30:03go, "Come on, just tell me what it is."
30:04AND YOU GO, "MHM."
30:05And the reason is The reason is that as
30:08a romantic, you believe that a true
30:09lover should be able to intuit the
30:11contents of your soul through the
30:13bathroom panel door,
30:15through the surface of your body and
30:17into your interior, and they should
30:20know. So, why would you ever bother
30:22telling them?
30:24So, this is a disaster because,
30:26unfortunately, even the most
30:27well-meaning people simply cannot
30:30understand all of us. They can
30:32understand bits of us, how we felt maybe
30:34when we were humiliated by our father at
30:36an early age, or how it felt to join a
30:38new school at a certain point, or
30:39whatever. Some things they can just get,
30:41but a lot of things, particularly over
30:43the long term, just no one can get. You
30:45cannot expect the other person to be a
30:47mind reader. And yet romanticism places
30:50the ability to mind read precisely at
30:52the kernel of its vision, the core of
30:54its vision of love. Deeply problematic.
30:57Deeply problematic. Um
30:59Here's another thing that romanticism uh
31:02talks to us about. It talks to us about
31:05um
31:07the way in which when you really love
31:09somebody you love everything about them.
31:12Um
31:13of course you love the amazing things
31:14about them, but but oddly and touchingly
31:17you quite love the slightly imperfect
31:20things about them. And that's why in the
31:22early days of love there's a lot of kind
31:24of tenderness and excitement around the
31:25discovery of the less than perfect sides
31:28of somebody that are used that feed into
31:30love and that intensify love. Maybe your
31:33partner's got a slight gap between their
31:35two front teeth. Not a problem. I mean a
31:36problem for an orthodontist, but for you
31:38it's charming. It's charming. Um maybe
31:41there's that old pair of pajamas that
31:43their mother gave them and they put it
31:44on on a cold nights and it's got bear
31:47prints on it. It doesn't look that
31:48glamorous. It wouldn't win any fashion
31:49award, but it's them and it's theirs and
31:51it's incredibly sweet and you love them
31:53all the more for it. So in a way in the
31:55early days of love the fragilities and
31:58vulnerabilities of another person are
32:00part of what makes that person so
32:02lovable.
32:03Until
32:06You're getting the hang of this now. Um
32:08until maybe about 3 months in a version
32:11of the following scenario happens.
32:14So maybe you've
32:15been out for a big night etc. And it's
32:17morning, it's dawn and you're having
32:19some breakfast and you're having some
32:20cereal. Maybe they picked out a kind of
32:22granola-ish sort of quite nutty kind of
32:24cereal and they're next to you
32:27and they're eating their cereal, you're
32:28eating your you got and you you just
32:30turn to them and you go look, are you a
32:32cow or something? This just sounds
32:34disgusting. Just just your mouth or
32:36something. And you know, this person
32:38suddenly turns around and goes, "I hang
32:40on a minute. This is like the third
32:42thing that you're criticizing me for in
32:4324 hours. I thought you loved me." And
32:46you go, "No, no,
32:47I do love you, but but you're eating
32:48like in a sort of bovine way. I mean,
32:51just stop it."
32:52And they get terribly offended and they
32:53go, "No one's ever told me that before."
32:55And you want to go, "Yeah, cuz why would
32:56they? I mean, your friend was not going
32:57to tell you, your parents are not going
32:58to tell you, and your ex probably knew
33:00it but went off to India." So,
33:02you know, the point is
33:04no one's going to tell you.
33:06And you sound like a cow. At which point
33:09at which point you've got a problem on
33:10your hands because romanticism doesn't
33:12allow for this sort of situation. It
33:15suggests that love is the acceptance of
33:17a whole being. And therefore, at one
33:19point in the relationship, one person is
33:21likely to say to another, "If you loved
33:23me, why do you criticize me?" So,
33:25there's that if criticism is here, love
33:27is here, they should never be together.
33:28And if they are ever together, it's a
33:30sign that love has failed.
33:32This, again, is a disastrous philosophy.
33:34The idea that another person could spend
33:37any time with us and not spot a whole
33:40lot of things that are problematic is
33:42really the height of sentimentality. Of
33:44course, there's not I mean, are you
33:46perfect? If you're not perfect, how on
33:48earth do you expect someone not to
33:49notice the imperfections and not mind
33:51them? But nevertheless, romanticism
33:53tells us that no, this has no place.
33:55Look, let's look away from that rather
33:57unhelpful philosophy to an earlier
34:00vision of love. This one developed by
34:02the ancient Greeks, which I think is a
34:03lot more helpful.
34:05The ancient Greeks, very focused on love
34:08as we are, um but had a very different
34:10vision of what love is. They felt that
34:12love is admiration for the perfect sides
34:16of another human being, for the virtues,
34:18the qualities, the accomplishments in
34:21the character and achievements of
34:22another person. You There's other stuff,
34:24of course, there's, you know, flaws and
34:26things and you may be generous towards
34:28them and you may be forgiving of them,
34:30but you don't love them. The word love
34:32is reserved for an admiration for what
34:35is virtuous and accomplished in another
34:38person.
34:39And for the ancient Greeks, the whole
34:40notion of love is that love should be a
34:42process of mutual education in which two
34:46people, under the auspices of love,
34:48undertake to educate one another to
34:51become better versions of themselves.
34:54And they do this not to be cruel, not as
34:56a way of bringing each other down, but
34:57because they have the sincerest best
34:59interests of the other at their heart.
35:01And therefore, love is a process whereby
35:03a teacher and a pupil are constantly
35:06rotating roles. Everyone is the teacher
35:08and everyone is the pupil at certain
35:10points and has lots of things to take on
35:12board. This is not a sign that love has
35:13been abandoned. It is the proof that
35:15love is in action.
35:17Now, this sounds so weird in the modern
35:19age. I mean, if you said to somebody, if
35:21you said to your partner,
35:22"I went to listen to this guy at the
35:24opera house and uh yeah, he's got some
35:26very nice ideas and he's written a book
35:27and on this basis, I would like to teach
35:29you some little things. I would like to
35:32deliver a a short seminar, short but to
35:34the point seminar on your character,
35:37achievements and nature, way of eating."
35:39Um this would be this would be so weird.
35:41AND THEY'D BE LIKE, "WHAT? WHY DID I
35:42THINK YOU LOVED ME?" ETC.
35:44NOW, why are we such bad teachers? You
35:47know, a lot of relationship arguments
35:50can essentially be seen as failed
35:53teaching moments. There's something you
35:55want to say and it goes terribly,
35:57terribly wrong on the journey to your
35:59listener.
36:00Why does it go so wrong? Why why does
36:02the lesson Why does the teaching lesson
36:04uh uh fail so badly? Partly because we
36:07don't think it's legitimate to teach.
36:08So, if someone's telling you, "It's not
36:10your job is not legitimate," you'll be a
36:11bit panicked. You're like, "Oh wow, I
36:12well, if I'm not supposed to do this,
36:13how do I" So, you're not relaxed. The
36:15other thing, of course, what makes a a
36:17good teacher is that they're calm, is
36:18that they're relaxed. And one of the
36:20best ways to be a calm teacher is not to
36:23mind too much if your lesson doesn't
36:25really get through to the other person.
36:27So, you know, a a great math teacher,
36:30you know, they're calm in the classroom
36:31because there's not that much at stake.
36:33Of course, they want their you know,
36:35pupils to pick up a bit about
36:37trigonometry, whatever, but if they
36:38don't, and if they flunk their exams,
36:39well, there'll be a new lot coming next
36:41year. It doesn't really matter. There's
36:42not that much at stake. The thing is
36:45that in love's classroom, we are much
36:47more tense. We are much more on edge,
36:49and the reason is that so much seems to
36:51depend on it. And the background of our
36:53thoughts is the most terrifying specter
36:56as we're trying to teach. And the
36:57terrifying specter goes like this, I
36:59think I've married an idiot. I think
37:02I've got to spend the rest of my life
37:04with someone who doesn't understand very
37:06basic, very important things that matter
37:08so much to me, and this person is not
37:09listening. And because they're not
37:11listening, we're going to ramp up the
37:12pressure and the tension. And we're
37:14going to start to be rude, and we're
37:15going to start to humiliate, and we're
37:17going to start to swear. And the
37:18terrible problem is that no one has
37:21ever, ever managed to teach anyone
37:23anything by humiliating them. By the
37:26time you are humiliating your partner in
37:27order to teach them something, forget
37:28it. Bye-bye, the lesson's over. You are
37:30never going to get through that way. As
37:32we know from HR departments in offices,
37:34if you want to teach someone something,
37:35it's got to be 99% honey and a tiny,
37:37tiny little criticism at the very end,
37:39you know, I love this, I love that, I
37:40love that. And did you know that thing
37:42that you know, that's maybe how you've
37:44got a chance of of getting through. But
37:46we don't do this. So, in love's
37:48classroom, we do not accept that love
37:50should be a process of mutual education.
37:52We know so much about our partners that
37:54no one else ever does. We've got a
37:56ringside seat on their charming sides
37:58and on their insanities in a way that no
38:00one ever will. But because we think it's
38:02a betrayal of love, that knowledge can't
38:04be shared, used, and grown with because
38:06we are so brittle and defensive. As
38:08students of this, we we simply fail to
38:11accept that the other person, if
38:12somebody tries to give us a so-called
38:13lecture, we might even use that
38:14pejorative term. You know, are you
38:16trying to give me a lecture? And you
38:18know, of course, Plato would say, "Yeah,
38:20I'm trying to give you a lecture because
38:22I love you. Because I love you, I'm
38:23going to give you a lecture and I hope
38:24tomorrow you'll give me a lecture and
38:26that's the way it works. But the
38:27romantics are like, "Oh no, I'm not
38:29going to stay with her. She gives me
38:30lectures all the time. Oh, I must leave
38:32her. She let me lecture." And so what
38:33happens when love's classroom has
38:34failed? Well, then the couple things get
38:37rather brittle and rather than trying to
38:39teach the couple descends into a cycle
38:41of mutual nagging and shirking.
38:44What is nagging? Nagging is what happens
38:46on the other side of an attempt to
38:48teach. You're not going to you're no
38:50longer try going to try and teach,
38:51you're just going to insist. You're
38:53going to force the person to believe and
38:54to listen. You're going to get very
38:56controlling and is ministerial and
38:59you're going to insist that they're back
39:00at a certain time, that they do this
39:01thing and you don't really care whether
39:03you're going to charm your way into
39:04their minds or not. You just insist that
39:06it's done that way. And meanwhile,
39:08nagging always has the counterpart in
39:09shirking. The shirking knows that tone.
39:12Well, they're going to pick up the
39:13newspaper, go upstairs, they're not
39:14going to listen. So there's a mutual
39:16deafness.
39:17Teaching and learning has gone
39:18completely wrong and that unfortunately
39:20is very often what happens in
39:22relationships under the aegis of
39:25romanticism.
39:26Now, are we all to despair? Where's this
39:28going to go? Can we rescue this nose
39:30dive of feelings?
39:32Yes, we can.
39:34Um
39:35I think there's lots of things to be
39:36hopeful about. Some of the people say to
39:37me things like, "Well, you know, are you
39:39not really hopeful about love? Are you
39:40saying that like we should just reduce
39:42our expectations?" No, no, we shouldn't
39:44reduce our expectations. I really
39:45believe that we should go into
39:46relationships with very high
39:47expectations. The problem is that
39:49romanticism defined very rightly certain
39:52high expectations but then gave us no
39:54way of reaching those expectations
39:57securely. It's like it set the bar but
39:59then gave us no way of exceeding to that
40:01bar reliably. So the task before us I
40:04think is to build the steps to get to
40:06the high place that we've accorded to
40:09love. Not not to necessarily bring down
40:11love but to
40:12try and find a way and as Anne says, one
40:15of the one of the characters in the book
40:17at some point says, you know, it takes
40:19them a long time to realize this, but
40:20they do realize that ultimately love is
40:22not just something that you feel, it is
40:23ultimately a skill that needs to be
40:25learned. And it sounds very odd because
40:27we're so
40:28we're so in love with the notion of the
40:30intuitive relationship in which
40:32everything just comes sort of by nature.
40:34If it doesn't come by nature, then it is
40:36wrong. And it's so contrary to the way
40:38we do other things. You know, we are an
40:40incredibly procedural society that
40:42believes that there are rules and
40:44techniques and tricks and ways of making
40:46things happen. But somehow in the area
40:48of love, we insist stubbornly on
40:49intuition. And it sounds so odd if you
40:51compare it with other things. I mean,
40:52imagine if I said to you, you know, I'm
40:53going to fly a triple 7 down to
40:55Melbourne tomorrow and I'm going to land
40:56it by intuition.
40:57Or I'm going to perform a piece of brain
40:59surgery by intuition. And you'd be like,
41:01what? That's crazy. Nevertheless, in the
41:03area of love, we're ready to embark on,
41:05you know, 50-year marriages by
41:06intuition, just hoping it's all
41:08going to go going to go well. Um
41:11So, what are some of these skills that
41:13we might need to develop? But let me
41:15give you just a few and I throw these
41:17out and there will of course be so many
41:19more, but I think one of the things that
41:21can help, and it sounds rather odd, but
41:24one of the things that can really help
41:25is to learn to see your partner as a
41:27small child, probably between the ages
41:29of two to three and a half. Basically,
41:33to imagine that your partner is of
41:35roughly that age. Now,
41:38the reason I say this is that all of us
41:39nowadays are really pretty good around
41:42two to three and a half year olds. So,
41:45let's imagine you've got one of those
41:45things at home and you've you're cooking
41:48a dinner and I don't know, you've made
41:50some schnitzel, potatoes, broccoli and
41:52you you give the kid the dinner and it
41:54just goes, "No!" and throws the whole
41:56dinner on the floor and goes, "No!"
41:57like this. And now, you don't you don't
41:59hit the child. You don't go, "I've had
42:01such a hard day at work and now this?
42:03Are you trying TO BRING ME DOWN? ARE YOU
42:04TRYING TO CRUSH MY CHARACTER?" YOU GO,
42:06"OH, NO, MAYBE you've got a sore tooth
42:08or you must be quite tired or maybe it's
42:11that jealousy with your sibling it is
42:12getting to you. It's hard to share your
42:14toys. We'll come up with very gentle
42:17explanations of why a piece of behavior
42:20has appeared on the horizon that seems
42:22pretty mean. We don't necessarily
42:24believe that people of that age are
42:26mean. We simply feel that they're in
42:28some ways hurting, anxious, damaged in
42:30some way, and we want to help them.
42:32We're generous.
42:33Adult love affairs do not find us in
42:35that kind of mood. I mean, there we're
42:36constantly going, "You're trying to
42:37bring me down. You're trying to
42:39humiliate me. You haven't given me the
42:40attention I need." Well, we very much
42:42take everything extremely
42:44personally. You know, part of the
42:46problem is that
42:48we don't look like children. I mean,
42:50this is really unhelpful. Like, if you
42:52Well, one of the great things about
42:54about children is that they they look
42:55like children. So, you kind of just know
42:57that they are a a child, but if you look
42:58at me, someone like, you know, you
42:59think, "Oh, this guy's an adult. He sort
43:01of looks like an adult." So, it's quite
43:03counterintuitive to go like, "Many parts
43:05of this character are about 2 and 1/2
43:07years old." It just you can't really
43:09believe it.
43:10But, the thing is that you sort of have
43:12to believe it. I mean, you know,
43:14the problem with psychological wounds
43:16and and distortions is that you can't
43:18see them. I mean, it's literally as sort
43:19of simple as that. You can't see them.
43:21If I've got a broken arm, right?
43:23Everyone can see that I got a broken
43:24arm, and you start to go, "Okay, the
43:26guy's like messed up his speech cuz he's
43:28got a bit of a broken arm. He must be in
43:29pain, and when he's going to walk
43:30through the door, we'll hold the door
43:32open. We'll make some special
43:33accommodation cuz we know he's not all
43:35that well in some way." You know, it's
43:37just obvious he's got a problem.
43:39The thing is that all of us are kind of
43:40like that, broken inside in various key
43:43ways, but there's no easy way of
43:45signaling it, right? We can't signal
43:47that we've got these wounds and
43:48breakages, etc. And so, our partners
43:50don't necessarily give us the
43:51accommodation that they would. Um and
43:54that's why it's so important to realize
43:55that, of course, wandering through the
43:57world, everybody is very severely broken
43:59and in need of a lot of forgiveness, and
44:02generally, on the whole, not mean, just
44:04frightened. Most people are very, very
44:06scared, and the most appalling pieces of
44:09behavior normally have fear at the heart
44:11of them rather than evil.
44:13Um the other thing that's quite key, uh
44:16I I I think, and is a real achievement
44:18of love, is to learn to see your partner
44:21um you know, most of us, after a while,
44:23start to see our partners as idiots.
44:25They just are a bit of an idiot. I just
44:26like, "Oh god, that idiot thing has
44:28happened again with our with with with
44:30our partner." Now,
44:32this is why this is why uh part of the
44:34reason why comedy and humor is so
44:37important in a relationship. You have to
44:39find a way to access the comedic part of
44:43all of you. Now, the interesting thing
44:44about comedy
44:45is that in comedy, many comic heroes are
44:47total idiots. I mean, if you think of
44:49someone like David Brent or uh Larry
44:52David from Curb Your Enthusiasm. These
44:53guys are just total, totally idiots.
44:55But, when we're watching the shows, um
44:59we kind of do this amazing thing, which
45:01is we both know they're idiots, but we
45:02kind of like them. We do this amazing
45:04metamorphosis. We start to see them as
45:05lovable idiots. Kind of lovable idiots.
45:08And that is such a piece of ethical
45:10imagination. To turn someone from an
45:12idiot to a lovable idiot in your
45:15imagination is a major piece of
45:17maturity. And if we're able to achieve
45:19that even sometimes in love, we will
45:21have learned very much how to temper our
45:23more punitive interpretations of who it
45:26is that we've uh got together with. Um
45:30you know, the other thing that we need,
45:31of course, is to really reckon with our
45:34habit of getting into crushes. It It was
45:36very charming at a certain point how
45:37easily we've developed crushes on
45:40people. And, you know, for a time it was
45:41thrilling, and you know, it really kept
45:43us going through certain years. But,
45:45like, we really have to get over the
45:46crush thing. Um because the thing is you
45:49don't need to know someone at all well
45:52to know, even though they look
45:53completely charming, and it was lovely
45:56to see them in the airline queue or the
45:58supermarket briefly, et cetera. And
46:00that's why you got a little tetchy when
46:01you got home, just cuz there was a
46:03lingered in your imagination that there
46:04was kind of an angel walking around the
46:06aisles of the supermarket or at the
46:07airport and now you've had to go home,
46:09no, sadly, but there was this angel.
46:12We've got to get over it. And the reason
46:14we can get over it is by an absolute
46:15piece of scientific certainty, which is
46:17that there are no angels, they're only
46:19human beings, and every human being
46:21wandering the earth is very, very
46:22problematic from close up. You don't
46:24know how this person is disturbed and
46:26would drive you mad, but you know, you
46:29have to know and take on board that they
46:30would. They just would. If you knew them
46:33better, despite their charms and
46:34honestly their, you know, ankles looked
46:36lovely and their comf- their their
46:38little bit of conversation that you had
46:39at the conference was just very
46:40promising, but the point is, deep down,
46:43they will cause you immense trouble
46:44because, not they're evil, they're
46:45human. And everybody does this. So, in
46:48in a way, you know, we're so obsessed
46:50nowadays, partly because of technology,
46:52with the idea of finding the perfect
46:53person, the right person. We're all the
46:55time swiping left and right in the
46:57search for that right person.
47:00The you know, the truth is there is no
47:01such character. Everybody is going to be
47:04wrong in substantial areas. There is no
47:07such thing. Compatibility, ultimately,
47:09is an achievement of love. It isn't and
47:12can't and shouldn't be its precondition.
47:14And therefore, the notion that we can
47:16only really get together with somebody
47:17when we have found somebody who matches
47:19us entirely. The person who is right
47:21isn't the person who agrees and condones
47:24every aspect of our character. It's
47:26somebody who negotiates the differences
47:28between two people in a particular way,
47:31with a particular generosity and dare I
47:34say sometimes humor. Uh this is so the
47:37so-called right person, but they're not
47:38that they are in some ways magical ways
47:41uh perfect. Um
47:43Look, the other thing,
47:45uh
47:46let's mention it just very quickly,
47:47around sex. Um you know, we live in an
47:49age of very high expectations around
47:51sex. Romanticism has prepared us for um
47:54very high things.
47:56Uh and well, the whole subject is a
47:58little bit of a veil of tears, to be
48:00honest. Um
48:01there are really two things that we want
48:02in this area, uh
48:04and they run in completely opposite
48:06directions. All of us want safety, we
48:08want to be really safe and loyal with
48:10somebody, and loyalty brings with it
48:12safety. So, we really want safety. And
48:14the other thing we really, really want
48:15is excitement, and the two just point in
48:17completely different directions.
48:19And
48:20but you know, periodically, and it
48:21happens on a kind of 20-year basis,
48:23people come along and go, "Ah, ah, ah, I
48:24found a solution to this kind of like
48:26safety-excitement thing." And you go,
48:28"Yeah, what is it?" So, in the '60s,
48:29people were telling us, "It's called
48:30free love." So, basically, the deal is
48:32that you get a bit of both. You get like
48:33safety in one corner, and you get like
48:34excitement, too, and it's really great.
48:36And nowadays, we're deep in the age of
48:37polyamory. So, a lot of people go,
48:39"Like, there's this thing I've heard,
48:40it's called polyamory, and it's great.
48:41It gives you everything. You know,
48:42jealousy is just this thing dreamt up by
48:43capitalism, and you just, you know, head
48:46out there." Well, ladies and gentlemen,
48:48it just it just is not true. These two
48:51things are deeply incompatible. I'm not
48:53going to go into too much why. We can
48:54discuss that later, if you like. But,
48:56essentially, you really have to make a
48:58choice between varieties of suffering.
49:00What What kind of suffering What kind of
49:02suffering do you want to go for? Like,
49:04do you want to go for, you know, And And
49:05also, what kind of upside is more
49:07important to you? Do you want to go for
49:08like the safety-loyalty thing, which is
49:09terrific? You get, you know, fantastic
49:11kind of coziness. It'd be really sweet.
49:12But, you know, you will be missing out.
49:14And sometimes, in the suburbs, on a
49:16Saturday night, you'll be like, "Oh,
49:17wow. You know what's going on in the
49:18bars and the kind of the the kind of
49:20swinging places of the city." And it's
49:22not for you. So, you've made your
49:23choice. And then, of course,
49:26of course, there's the other choice,
49:27which is excitement, which is terribly
49:28thrilling and new people all the time.
49:30And the first time you undress them, and
49:31it's all thrilling, thrilling. But, of
49:32course, it's utter chaos. Your life's
49:34full of recriminations, full of
49:35jealousy, full of confusion. Your
49:37children are in a mess. But, you know,
49:39there's the excitement. So, really, the
49:40choice before us is what variety of
49:42suffering do you want to go for? Do you
49:43Do you want to go for the chaos bit or
49:45the kind of boredom and solidification
49:47bit? Which one? It's like a choice. And
49:50you know, it's funny. It's good you're
49:52because I I I recently went
49:56I I recently went to the United States
49:57and did a book tour and um
50:00it wasn't happen so much on on the East
50:02Coast, which is like more closer to a
50:03kind of European sensibility, but by the
50:05time I got to California, by the time I
50:07was talking about this, there was
50:08literally a stunned silence in the room.
50:10They're like, "What? What? What is
50:12you're saying? Like this you can't make
50:14things perfect? What? We We We live in
50:16We live in LA. Like what?"
50:19Um but of course, I think you know, one
50:20of one of the great contributions, you
50:22know, Britain is not responsible for
50:23very much that's um totally perfect, but
50:25one of its greatest exports, one of the
50:27greatest British exports is melancholy.
50:30And And you know,
50:31melancholy is a really kind of useful
50:33emotion sometimes because it's not it's
50:35not fury, it's not it's not rage. It's
50:38like, "Yeah, like, you know, life's
50:40imperfect, but I'm dealing with it. I'm
50:42I'm coping with it. I'm, you know, I've
50:43got Morrissey, I've got Bach. I'm
50:44handling it. I'm still in control." And
50:47And I I I think this is an area Yeah,
50:49this is an area where we may we may want
50:51to have recourse to that peculiar
50:53British gift to humanity. Um
50:56Look, you know, am I saying that we
50:58should always stick with people? Uh you
51:00know, I I you know, are we in danger of
51:02saying that that in that case anyone is
51:04worth sticking with? I Look, I don't
51:05want to say that. Um in many ways, you
51:08know, marriage is a pretty nasty thing
51:10to do to somebody that you claim to
51:11love. It's pretty It's putting them
51:13through some pretty pretty difficult uh
51:15stresses, but you know, and there are
51:17undoubtedly sometimes people that you
51:19should leave. Some relationships which
51:20should be broken up. Um
51:23How can you tell? How do you know
51:25whether you should leave somebody? And I
51:26you know, I think there's almost kind of
51:27simple rule of thumb. I think you know,
51:29if you can look at your life, honestly
51:31survey its good and bad sides, and if
51:33you can honestly pinpoint all the things
51:36that are making you profoundly unhappy
51:38to your partner, if you look around and
51:40you think, "Okay, yeah, all the things
51:41that are really bringing me down, it's
51:43them. It It really is them. It's them."
51:46Leave. If you If you really can feel
51:49that, just leave. All right, then you
51:50should leave. But if you honestly take
51:52an audit of your sources of unhappiness
51:54and many causes for which they're you
51:57know, reverberating through your soul,
51:59and you look at your partner and you go,
52:00"I'm not sure if I can fully blame them
52:02for everything."
52:04Then stay. Stay. Because
52:07what what you may
52:09what you may have encountered is some of
52:10the unhappiness of existence in the
52:12company of another person rather than
52:14the cause of another person. So easy to
52:17merge the two. I mean,
52:20Great Britain Britain has done exactly
52:22this with its marriage to the European
52:24Union. Uh
52:26it very much believed that all of its
52:27unhappiness could be pinpointed to this
52:29thing and getting rid of it, it would be
52:31happy and now it's discovering a lesson
52:33that many people in relationships have
52:35also discovered painfully
52:37when it when it when it's too late. Um
52:43Um
52:47Should we even bother with marriage? Uh
52:49my novel is about marriage in a way.
52:51It's it's a it's a very much a novel
52:52focusing on long-term relationships with
52:53a with a marriage. Is there any point to
52:55it anymore? You know, many articles,
52:57normally about one a week in a major
52:58broadsheet newspaper, it's always about
53:00is marriage still in? Is it still
53:02relevant? And of course, it doesn't
53:03really make sense from all sorts of
53:05points of view. Like if you look at if
53:06you look at a co- a sober look at
53:07marriage, it's completely insane. It's
53:09like, "Hang on, I'm going to give half
53:11of all my belongings and it is still
53:13nowadays people don't invest heavily in
53:14lawyers to uh make things easy. We kind
53:17of jump headlong into marriage and we
53:18still do it despite all the reasons why
53:21we might not. So, why do we do this? And
53:23is it just a kind of insanity? Well, I
53:25don't think so. I think that the very
53:28fact that we make ourselves go through
53:31marriage and we invite all our friends
53:33and we have a huge wedding. So, it would
53:35be so embarrassing if we had to call
53:36them all up go, "You know what? You know
53:38that TV you bought me? Really sorry.
53:40It's only been 3 months, but I'm
53:41quitting." right? Why do we Why do we
53:44publicly betroth ourselves to another
53:45person? Because I think a mature part of
53:47us knows that we benefit from the cage
53:51of marriage. It is a cage, but we put
53:53ourselves in it, we lock ourselves, and
53:55we throw away the key ourselves. Not
53:57because we're crazy, but because we
53:59realize that there are sides of our
54:01character that really can only develop
54:03in an environment in which neither of us
54:05can quit the room immediately.
54:07That actually the ability to run away,
54:10so tempting though it is, is not always
54:13a benefit to the things that we've got
54:15to work through. So, we willingly encage
54:18ourselves because we realize that there
54:20is some kind of piece of maturity, some
54:23piece of growing up that is going to
54:25happen when we are locked together in a
54:27situation which we can't immediately
54:28accept at the huge cost and huge
54:30embarrassment. Embarrassment's very
54:32important. We're willingly entering into
54:34a situation which it would be deeply
54:35embarrassing to leave. We're not simply
54:37crazy. We're aware of the debt that
54:39maturity owes to being slightly locked
54:43into a situation.
54:45So, look, I do believe that it is
54:47possible to have long-term
54:49relationships. I just think we need to
54:51run through a kind of checklist. When
54:52are we ready for love? When are we ready
54:54to really embark on this long-term
54:57business of love? I think you're ready
54:58to really go for it in love when you
55:01finally and conclusively accept that you
55:03really are crazy. And you have a really
55:05quite a good handle on your craziness.
55:07And not least, you have a really good
55:08handle on your partner's craziness. And
55:10you have an absolute awareness that
55:12anyone you meet, even the most charming
55:13person on a train, is going to be very
55:15imperfect cuz that's human nature. When
55:17you're ready to do the laundry, when
55:19you're ready to discuss towels ad
55:21infinitum, when you're ready not merely
55:23to insist that others will guess what's
55:25in your heart, but you may even have to
55:27use words to spell it out very, very
55:29patiently over long periods. Um And
55:32you're ready that And you're ready to
55:33believe that all of this, with a dose of
55:34humor, belongs to a sincere
55:36relationship, then, ladies and
55:38gentlemen, I think you are ready for
55:39love, and I would commend you to move
55:41forward on it. That's all from me. We've
55:43got a bit of time for questions. Thank
55:44you so much.
56:05Thank you. So, there there is some mics
56:07and so do do approach them with a a
56:09question, a confession, um
56:12a vulnerability. Uh we're among friends.
56:15Um
56:17Yes.
56:19Brave brave lady here number two.
56:22Thank you very much. My question is
56:24about the tools that you spoke of. The
56:27craziness quotient you talked about that
56:29we all should be adopting and
56:31acknowledging.
56:32Is there a system that you think you
56:34could be developing?
56:36Just like we have for job interviews and
56:37those sorts of things and for quite uh
56:39sophisticated dating sites that aren't
56:41just related to how big certain bits
56:43are, um but about um the compatibility.
56:47Because in uh as you know as you
56:49referenced earlier, time gone by, we had
56:51arranged marriages, we had elders.
56:53So, with the absence of that system, is
56:55there a new
56:57portal, a new drop-down menu
57:00Well,
57:01that you have in mind?
57:01Uh you know, it's interesting because in
57:03a way Silicon Valley is very romantic as
57:05a as a as a kind of institution and very
57:08much believes in helping us to find the
57:09right person. And if you look at most of
57:11the technological tools that have
57:13appeared in the last 15 years, an
57:15enormous number are designed to increase
57:17our choices and to try and direct us
57:19towards this person called the right
57:21person.
57:22And I I tried to hint um that in a sense
57:25that's useful and in a sense it's
57:27unhelpful. Because this emphasis on
57:29rightness and this notion that with just
57:32with a superior piece of technology and
57:35algorithm, we will get to a person with
57:37whom there will be no friction, sets us
57:39up rather dangerously for the reality of
57:41love, which is that everybody is a
57:43different person. We We've all come from
57:46a womb, let's remember. We've all come
57:48from a womb in which we didn't have to
57:49speak, in which our needs were met, as
57:52it were, just automatically through an
57:54umbilical cord. And it takes a good long
57:56time, good 50 years or so, before we
57:58realize that we have actually left that
58:00environment. And that we And that And
58:03that no one can fully understand us.
58:06That we're, you know, if you're lonely
58:07with, say, 40% of your life only, you're
58:10doing really well. But I mean, the idea
58:12that you're not going to be lonely is
58:14very misguided. And therefore, I would
58:16be wary of utopian experiments with
58:19matching and constant attempts to match.
58:22What we really need is, you know, apps
58:24and bits of technology that teach us
58:26patience, that teach us resourcefulness,
58:28inner resourcefulness, that teach us
58:30forgiveness, that teach us humor. To the
58:32To date, um
58:33that hasn't happened at all. There are
58:34no apps You know, it was interesting. I
58:36was invited to a Google conference, um
58:38the other day in in the UK. And um
58:42Eric Schmidt, uh the the chairman of of
58:44Google, was talking about um
58:46what he what Google was planning uh in
58:49the next sort of 15 years. And it was
58:51like putting people on Mars and curing
58:53cancer and uh like, you know, X-ray
58:56vision. I don't know, all sorts of
58:57things, amazing things. And then
58:59somebody in the audience said, "You
59:00know, Mr. Schmidt, is there anything
59:01that you think Google can't do? Like
59:03things that are beyond technology?" And
59:05he laughed and he went, "Well, we're not
59:06exactly about to invent an app to teach
59:08people to be more forgiving."
59:10And he laughed. And anyway,
59:13I as though like, what a mad thing. So
59:15then, uh fortunately, I I sidled up to
59:17him at at the reception afterwards and
59:19said, "Mr. Schmidt, you're you're curing
59:20cancer, but you think it's impossible to
59:22create a piece of technology which will
59:23assist us in the task of being more
59:25forgiving. I I
59:27disagree with you."
59:28And anyway, had a kind of conversation,
59:30but I I think that look, to some extent
59:34my book is a piece of technology,
59:36very old fashioned, glued together, it
59:38doesn't move or sing or light up, but
59:40it's essentially a tool, a piece of
59:41technology.
59:42I wrote a book I I don't like
59:44entertainment. I don't like entertaining
59:45people for the sake of it. I am a
59:46teacher and I've written this novel.
59:48It's not boring really. Well, it's
59:50nothing happens in it really, but
59:53But but really it's following two people
59:56in their attempt. They go from being
59:58romantics who believe that love is just
1:00:00a feeling to slowly slowly slowly they
1:00:02realize they've got they're going to
1:00:03break up and they're going to create a
1:00:05disaster in their lives unless they
1:00:06learn some lessons of love. And the
1:00:08novel is, you know, tea taking you
1:00:11through that journey. It's an attempt to
1:00:12teach through the medium of a of a
1:00:14novel. And I think that we need that
1:00:18sort of intervention into our lives. And
1:00:21And very kindly mentioned the School of
1:00:22Life which is opening. The School of
1:00:24Life is dedicated to to trying to skill
1:00:26people up in this area. It sounds so
1:00:28unromantic and I apologize for it
1:00:31sounding so unromantic. If you said,
1:00:33I've just come back from a class in
1:00:35which I've learned how to interpret the
1:00:37moods of my partner. You think, "Oh my
1:00:39god, that sounds horrible. Really? You
1:00:41went to that? Poor you." And of course
1:00:43the old thing is when people go uh
1:00:47I'm seeing a therapist. Everyone goes,
1:00:48"Oh no, poor poor you." The relation And
1:00:50we're seeing a marriage therapist. Oh my
1:00:52god, well, it's clearly about to be
1:00:54over. Whereas of course there is no
1:00:55surer sign that a relationship is on
1:00:57safe ground than that a couple has taken
1:00:59the step to try and examine it
1:01:01logically. So, anyway, I'm rambling, but
1:01:04I hope that in some way answers your
1:01:05question. Thank you so much. um
1:01:10Other thoughts?
1:01:13Hi. Um I just wanted to know what are
1:01:15your thoughts on the search for love
1:01:18through things like Tinder?
1:01:21Yes. Okay, let's go back to that. Um I
1:01:24think um
1:01:26I think that Tinder, again, excites us
1:01:29because it makes the choosing of people
1:01:32it it it places the emphasis on the
1:01:34story of love at a very particular
1:01:36moment, which is the moment of choice.
1:01:38And it's not surprising because our
1:01:40culture is so obsessed. Most love
1:01:41stories are not love stories. They're
1:01:43the stories of two people finding each
1:01:45other, overcoming certain obstacles, and
1:01:46getting together. It then ends. The
1:01:48story then ends. So, I don't really have
1:01:51a problem with Tinder. I'm sure it's
1:01:52fun. The thing is, if you have a bit of
1:01:55a high profile and you're married, sadly
1:01:57you can't go on Tinder. Um
1:02:00So, I've no idea. I've no idea about
1:02:01Tinder. Um
1:02:03But um that was a joke. That was a joke.
1:02:06Joke. Joke.
1:02:08Um
1:02:09Uh but but it places the emphasis in the
1:02:11wrong place, which is it leads to an
1:02:14impatient search. You're throwing a lot
1:02:16of human beings away. Look, I I as a
1:02:18secular Jew, I love I love the the
1:02:21Christian idea that once you know about
1:02:23love, you could love anyone.
1:02:25And and Christianity really it
1:02:26emphasizes this point like you could
1:02:27love anyone. You could love a leper. You
1:02:29could love someone with leprosy. So,
1:02:30imagine Twitter breaks down and goes,
1:02:32"Actually, stop this choice. You're
1:02:34going to We've chosen you a leper.
1:02:35Please love them." We're like, "Oh, no.
1:02:37I don't want to love a leper. COME ON,
1:02:39GUYS. I CAN'T SWIPE. YOU'RE TRYING TO
1:02:41swipe and the thing doesn't swipe.
1:02:42You've got You're stuck with the leper,
1:02:44right?"
1:02:46Wouldn't necessarily be bad. It would
1:02:48teach us a lot of things. And I think
1:02:49though the more you know about love, the
1:02:52more you know about love, the less
1:02:53important it is who you're loving. I
1:02:54don't mean that you haven't noticed that
1:02:56you're loving a particular person, but
1:02:57you realize that everyone and that the
1:02:59act of loving anyone is going to require
1:03:02many of the same resources. And I think
1:03:04that our technological Tinderish age has
1:03:06deeply forgotten that lesson. It is the
1:03:08lesson of art. You know, if you think of
1:03:11What are the novels of Dostoevsky but a
1:03:13constant attempt to take us behind the
1:03:15scenes of people who look pretty
1:03:16disgusting at first swipe. Like you
1:03:18wouldn't have gone, "Oh, Raskolnikov,
1:03:20lovely match." Right?
1:03:21Murderer, murderer, Napoleonic visionary
1:03:25and egomaniac. You wouldn't have You
1:03:26wouldn't have gone on a date, right? But
1:03:28but but Dostoevsky takes you behind the
1:03:30scenes and goes, "You know, behind this
1:03:32profile is a human." And discovers the
1:03:34humanity behind the profile. And I I
1:03:36worry that our age is getting ever less
1:03:38adept at that maneuver. But for me, that
1:03:41maneuver is love.
1:03:43Okay. Three.
1:03:50Um is is there a particular model for
1:03:53your notion of um
1:03:56uh revealing your insanities to a
1:03:58prospective partner? Or is that
1:04:00Or is that something that you expect
1:04:02would just emerge naturally in in
1:04:03conversation?
1:04:04No, I I I think it's Look, I think it's
1:04:06very important to do it at a time when
1:04:09your insanity has not wounded the other
1:04:11person. The The reason why most of us
1:04:13are so unforgiving to the flaws of
1:04:15others is because we encounter those
1:04:17flaws at moments when they've damaged
1:04:19us. So it's like, "Look, I know about
1:04:21your father and how horrible he was or
1:04:22your mother and how, you know, she
1:04:24didn't love you enough." But like,
1:04:24frankly, I don't care cuz right now
1:04:27you've ruined my weekend. So like I'm
1:04:28not really in a mood to listen to that
1:04:30stuff. It's like I don't care that you
1:04:32were once a small child who was, you
1:04:33know, tender and that because actually,
1:04:35frankly, you've just destroyed my
1:04:36relationship with my best friend out of
1:04:37some weird misguided feeling of jealousy
1:04:39and I don't know where it comes from,
1:04:40but I don't care. So in other words, you
1:04:43are not going to be sympathetic when
1:04:44it's damaging. So, the time to do it is
1:04:47when the other person feels relaxed,
1:04:50tender. And you need to find some
1:04:51strategy. You know, the art of timing.
1:04:53Most of the time, we are so because
1:04:56there's not a teaching culture within
1:04:57relationships, we feel that we've got to
1:04:59get our lesson out at the very moment
1:05:02when we feel it. It's like cuz the
1:05:03romantics are all about authenticity. So
1:05:05it's like you you know, it's all this
1:05:07cult of being authentic to your
1:05:08feelings. You've got to be true to your
1:05:10feelings. That's the you know, I mean,
1:05:11really? You really want to be true to
1:05:13all your feelings? Ooh, that's going to
1:05:14be trouble. It's like, I think you're
1:05:16looking a little ugly today. Oh, I just
1:05:18had to express that cuz I'm a romantic.
1:05:19So,
1:05:21you know, your your thighs are looking a
1:05:22little fat, but I'm a romantic, so I had
1:05:24to tell you. Jean-Jacques Rousseau told
1:05:26me to tell you that your thighs were a
1:05:27little fat. So, that's really a kind of
1:05:30problem. So, do it Yeah. Do it when
1:05:32they're calm and do it strategically and
1:05:35try not to hurt somebody with your
1:05:37insanity. You'll find a better result.
1:05:39So, number four,
1:05:42Hi. Um Oh god, that's loud. Sorry.
1:05:45Um I just wanted to ask This is a bit of
1:05:47an uncomfortable question, but money. Um
1:05:51Is it Well,
1:05:53I got to start again.
1:05:55I I'm under strict instruction. I'm
1:05:57going to go to art school next year and
1:05:59I'm under strict instruction to not fall
1:06:01in love with another person who wants to
1:06:03become an artist because I will end up
1:06:05being poor and sad and lonely.
1:06:08Um and I just wanted to ask question if
1:06:13practical things such as money, houses,
1:06:16towels, whatever,
1:06:17um can actually really break up a
1:06:19relationship or if those are negotiable
1:06:21things.
1:06:22Okay, that's such a good question
1:06:23because it it really sits on top of this
1:06:27romantic classical divide, if you like,
1:06:30in the in the in the in the view of
1:06:32love. Um the last writer to talk head-on
1:06:35about love and money is Jane Austen in
1:06:38European fiction. And her novels are
1:06:41obsessed with money. Um not to the
1:06:43detriment of everything else, but they
1:06:45take a really fascinating look. I mean,
1:06:47you know the way it works with with Jane
1:06:49Austen novels, very often you'll be told
1:06:50that such and such a character was worth
1:06:5220 pounds a year and you furiously look
1:06:54back at the novel and go, "What was
1:06:54that? 20 pounds? Like, what does that
1:06:56mean? That doesn't sound like very
1:06:57much." And then someone says like worth
1:06:5840 pounds and they got an annuity and
1:07:00they got a So, like, you're totally told
1:07:02the financial status of all the
1:07:04characters. And this can sound quite
1:07:06weird because we are romantics and
1:07:09romantics believe as you correctly
1:07:12suggest that love love and money have
1:07:14nothing to do with one another. That
1:07:15true love has absolutely nothing to do
1:07:17with money. That love is a feeling and
1:07:19money is this horrible dirty thing. And
1:07:21Jane Austen is the last person to have
1:07:23an intelligent sane view of of of of of
1:07:25money because she doesn't say
1:07:28There are characters in her novels. In
1:07:29Mansfield Park, there are these
1:07:31characters whose name I now forget. I
1:07:33forget her name. There's one There's one
1:07:35couple that gets together primarily for
1:07:37money because they're financially
1:07:38interested and only financially
1:07:40interested and they have a terrible
1:07:41life. And but Fanny Price, the heroine,
1:07:44has got she's a little bit interested in
1:07:46money. In other words, she sensibly
1:07:48knows that money has got things to
1:07:50contribute to a good relationship. And
1:07:52she doesn't see this as a sign that
1:07:54she's an evil person. She simply sees it
1:07:56as a practical recognition of what money
1:07:59can do and what practical sides of life
1:08:01do to emotions. And you know, I would
1:08:04recommend a Jane Austen view of your
1:08:08dilemmas in art school. In other words,
1:08:10it's not that you're a bad person that
1:08:11you think of it. And frankly, yes. I
1:08:14mean, you know, there are plenty of
1:08:16extremely nice people
1:08:18who are making a a miserable dry brittle
1:08:20living in the financial sector who would
1:08:23love to infuse their soul with a more
1:08:26artistic
1:08:27temperament.
1:08:29And
1:08:30I would recommend you do that.
1:08:35Yeah.
1:08:37I have a very simple question to say.
1:08:41Uh just to give
1:08:43My question actually is how do I bring
1:08:45romanticism in my marriage
1:08:48after being married 37 years today?
1:08:52Right.
1:08:53And
1:08:53Congratulations.
1:08:55Our marriage actually was an arranged
1:08:57marriage according to our culture. Our
1:09:00parents chose each other for us and we
1:09:03blindly accepted it even though we had
1:09:07our own personal views, but we said yes
1:09:09because our parents said he's stable, he
1:09:12has his own business, he will keep you
1:09:14safe and secure. Money. Money being the
1:09:17issue.
1:09:17Yes. Well, look, I think um that some of
1:09:20the thing that happens is that when you
1:09:21love somebody, you want to lay claim to
1:09:23them. You want to own them. You want to
1:09:25possess them. But to a great extent, I
1:09:28think we don't appreciate things or
1:09:30people that we possess. We don't
1:09:31appreciate what we have. And I think
1:09:34that um you know, the question that
1:09:36you're asking is not really about
1:09:37romanticism, it's about appreciation.
1:09:39And I think it holds true not just for
1:09:41relationships, but for everything. Um
1:09:44you know, Marcel Proust was once asked
1:09:45by a
1:09:46newspapers were doing silly
1:09:47questionnaires even then and he was
1:09:49asked by a newspaper how um how he would
1:09:52feel if he heard that a meteorite was
1:09:54heading for the Earth and would soon
1:09:55destroy civilization. This is like 19
1:09:5819. And he said that it would be a
1:10:01marvelous thing because suddenly
1:10:02everything in life would be so full of
1:10:04meaning, beauty, charm. He would rush to
1:10:07go to museums that he hadn't been to. He
1:10:09would undertake journeys. He would fall
1:10:10in love. He would appreciate his
1:10:12friends. All of these things. And that
1:10:14what And he said rather pointedly, the
1:10:16thing that prevents us from noticing all
1:10:18of these things is the feeling that it's
1:10:20forever and that we already possess
1:10:22them. When in fact, all of us might die
1:10:24this evening, he says. Um uh he was a
1:10:27hypochondriac, but a a
1:10:29a good one. Um
1:10:31But I think we can take a little lesson
1:10:33from Proust's book. Imagine you and your
1:10:34husband might die this evening. And
1:10:36that's the the single most romantic This
1:10:39might be your last evening.
1:10:41That's what you should do.
1:10:43Um
1:10:50We've got We've got about 14 seconds for
1:10:52the last question. So, this is the last
1:10:53question.
1:10:54I want to thank you for speaking to us
1:10:55tonight, but also my my question relates
1:10:57what you spoke to spoke about in the
1:10:59beginning, which is you said we're in
1:11:01we're in the age of romanticism right
1:11:03now. What what do you think has caused
1:11:06the persistence of the age of
1:11:07romanticism
1:11:08like for centuries? What do you think
1:11:10the next evolution is for love and
1:11:13persistent relationships?
1:11:14Look, I don't want to sound like one of
1:11:15those guys, but to some extent it is to
1:11:17do with the commercial system we live
1:11:19within. It's so much easier when you're
1:11:21trying to sell someone toothpaste to
1:11:23sell it with that initial heady ecstatic
1:11:25moment of love. There's a huge interest
1:11:28in talking about that. It's look, it's
1:11:30deeply exciting. The moment two people
1:11:32get together is one of the most exciting
1:11:34things in the world. So, no wonder we
1:11:36keep scratching that bit of human
1:11:38nature. It's no surprise. If I was
1:11:39making a Hollywood movie and I was
1:11:41spending 100 million pounds and the
1:11:42choice was between, you know, uh you
1:11:45know, a long-term relationship or that
1:11:46heady moment, you know, you go for the
1:11:48heady moment. I mean, the only filmmaker
1:11:50who's ever made a sensible film in the
1:11:51last sort of 10 years about marriage is
1:11:53Richard Linklater with his beautiful
1:11:54film Before Midnight, which is about the
1:11:56only adult description of love. And it
1:11:59was a very small grossing movie, but
1:12:00please go and see it if you can because
1:12:02it's one of the great films. But it you
1:12:04know, we're surrounded by people who
1:12:05have a lot of interest in exciting us
1:12:08around the early moments of love. But
1:12:10the fightback begins and it begins here.
1:12:12And it begins with a novel I've written
1:12:15and
1:12:18and and with you listening. So, I
1:12:21encourage all of you to come and see me
1:12:22afterwards, get your book signed, and to
1:12:24begin a new way of approaching love. Not
1:12:27in a cold way, not with cynicism or with
1:12:30pessimism, but with a healthy belief
1:12:32that the best way to get our
1:12:33relationships to go well is to overcome
1:12:36certain of our romantic illusions. Thank
1:12:38you so much.

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