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Aileen Wuornos: A Criminologist Explains How Society Created a Monster — Transcript

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0:04She's been called the hookah from hell.
0:06Terrorized men along [music] Florida's
0:08highways.
0:08>> She's a wild, boozing lesbian
0:10prostitute.
0:11>> I mean, Carol warn us. Be electrocuted
0:14until you are dead. It's
0:16>> sad. Society didn't care, did they?
0:24>> Christopher, welcome back. Um, [snorts]
0:26glad to have you back.
0:28Yeah, it's lovely to see you again.
0:30Lovely sunny afternoon here in England.
0:33And um you look smart. You've got my
0:35yellow sweater on from last time.
0:37[laughter]
0:39>> Well, last time we spoke about um the
0:42British serial killer, Joanne Deni, and
0:44we're going to stick to the, you know,
0:46the females for a while. Um America's
0:49first female serial killer, Eileen
0:52Werneros. Now, she shot and killed seven
0:56people between 1989 and 1990. You wrote
0:59a book about her, which is featured here
1:03behind me. And um, you know, with these
1:07with this particular case, it's it's
1:09kind of hard not to feel some sort of,
1:12you know, sympathy or empathy with
1:14regards to her and how she grew up. Um
1:17obviously you know more about the case
1:19and and you know what she did and how
1:22she was raised than I do. So um what are
1:24your thoughts on this?
1:26>> Well contrary to uh the formative years
1:31of Joanne Denhei who was brought up in a
1:34a [snorts] middle class home very well
1:36looked after great schooling and
1:38everything else. [snorts] Um Lee was
1:40born on the wrong side of the tracks.
1:43>> Um there's no doubt about that. actually
1:45born uh 29th of February 1956
1:50um in Rochester, Michigan um to uh her
1:54her father was um I think his name was
1:57Pitman or something like that. He was a
1:59he was a a convicted child molester, a
2:02rapist, and um her mother was didn't
2:06want anything to do with Lee. And they
2:09farmed her off to um
2:11to the the sort of grandfather or
2:14somebody like that. And uh he was a very
2:16very brutal man. He um he a strict
2:20disciplinarian. And I always say like,
2:23you know, we don't know what goes on
2:25behind closed doors and shuttered
2:27windows. And to the to the actual person
2:31that went past that house, they would
2:34just see a normal suburban home. Um, and
2:38they didn't realize what terrible things
2:40were going on inside. As far as Lee was
2:43concerned,
2:45he beat her frequently
2:47uh when she didn't do what she was told.
2:50He stripped her naked, bent her over a
2:53table, uh thrashed took off his leather
2:56belt, which he'd made her clean. He made
2:58her clean this leather belt, and then he
3:01thrash her with a leather belt. And so
3:04this girl had a very young kid. She had
3:07a a very, very
3:09bad start in life.
3:12Um and then she started knocking around
3:15with her peers,
3:18uh playing in the woods. I think they
3:20had what they called a fort or
3:21something, a fort or something like
3:23that. And uh she playing with her mates
3:26and they ridiculed her. Uh they used her
3:29for sex, gave her cigarettes for sex. So
3:32she had a very bad start in life and and
3:35in fact when it was really winter or
3:37something like that, this man used to
3:40make her sleep in the car. He chuck her
3:42out of the house and make her [snorts]
3:44sleep in his car in the freezing cold.
3:47So, it's no wonder that this this girl
3:50started off on the wrong side of the
3:52tracks and she was emotionally
3:55scarred then for the rest of her life.
3:59Wenos was then she fell pregnant I think
4:02she was aged 13. Um, now again there's
4:06been there's been differing accounts.
4:07There were rumors that you know there
4:09was incest in the family that it could
4:10have been her grandfather. But the other
4:12story is that it was a friend of her
4:14grandfather who was well obviously a
4:17pedophile. Um and then she had to give
4:20up the baby boy who I think she named
4:24after her brother Keith
4:27and um
4:29>> and then she she basically I mean that
4:32was kind of that was kind of it. Uh I
4:34think her grandfather kicked her out the
4:36house and as you said she had to kind of
4:39you know some night she had to sleep in
4:41a car in in you know in the snow up in
4:43Michigan. Um yeah
4:44>> which I think is why she then moved to
4:47Florida if I'm if I'm correct because
4:49obviously the weather is a lot more
4:50forgiving. And at that stage she was
4:53supporting herself
4:56you know by being a prostitute.
4:58>> Well let's let's go back let's go back a
5:01bit. Um, let's let's backtrack a little
5:04bit. Um, because she had this road trip
5:06down to Florida.
5:08>> In other words, she didn't go straight
5:10from Michigan to Florida. She she she
5:13went what what I said we called it on
5:16the lamb.
5:17>> And uh she she
5:20uh
5:22by then she was pretty street wise. I
5:24mean, she was a pretty girl. I mean, she
5:26was a pretty little kid. Uh and she she
5:29got into bar fights. I mean in one
5:32particular thing she was playing pool
5:34and a young girl playing pool and um the
5:38bar bar owner she was swearing and
5:40drinking and only very young still. Uh
5:44and um he he said, "I'm closing the pool
5:46table down.
5:48You know, you're out. Got to go."
5:51And she picked up a a pool a ball
5:57and somebody shouted to him, "Duck!" And
6:00the ball went into the wall. It
6:02literally solidly went into the wall.
6:04She she was furious.
6:07So then the police turn up and they, you
6:10know, they give her a bit of a, you
6:12know, drunken disorderly or whatever it
6:14was. And then she gets out of out of
6:16this place and then she meets this old
6:17man called,
6:20his name was Fel. Something something
6:22fell. And he was a very
6:24>> Yeah. Lewis Fel. Yeah. And and the the
6:28And here's comes the humor because I
6:30think this is quite funny. So he's this
6:33old boy and he's got a walking stick,
6:37but he's rich.
6:38>> Yeah.
6:40>> And uh
6:43Lee can see a money tree,
6:47lots of money hanging off the branches.
6:51And he's got he's all over. he wants to
6:53marry her and he want, you know, he's
6:55got stocks and shares in the travel
6:57trucking business or something like
6:58that. And they buy a pink Cadillac,
7:02open top Cadillac,
7:05and they're driving around her hometown
7:07in Rochester, Michigan, and she's she's
7:10with this old boy,
7:13and they're showing off this to all her
7:15neighbors and friends. Look, look what
7:17I've got now. I've got this old boy.
7:19Well, anyway, un unfortunately for him,
7:23you know, he he really wanted her to sit
7:26around with him darning his socks and
7:31working out his stocks and shares
7:33and and that to him and she would, you
7:37know, cuddle up to him on the seti and
7:39things like that. But of course, Lee
7:40wouldn't have any of that.
7:42>> Yeah. I mean, he was 76 years old at the
7:44time.
7:45>> Yeah, I believe. So,
7:46>> so he told her, "No, he said she I'm
7:49going to the bar. I'm going to the bar."
7:50And he said, "No, you've got to stay
7:52home." [snorts] And of course, Lee, you
7:54know, she's street wise kid. So, she
7:57picked up his walking stick and gave him
7:58a damn good hiding.
8:02Now, the point was he had to get a
8:05restraining order.
8:07>> Yeah. And they were actually married. Um
8:09but I think for a couple of months and
8:11then you know she beat the crap out of
8:13him with his own walking stick uh his
8:15cane and um yeah then he got a
8:17restraining order.
8:19[laughter]
8:21>> So she anyway she went down she got you
8:23know a few tickets for bits and pieces
8:24on the way but you know that that brings
8:26your viewers in that you know she did
8:28have this little road trip down to
8:29Florida.
8:30>> Yeah.
8:30>> Um
8:32>> as you say because the weather's nice
8:33you know and it's a lot more orange
8:35groves and all this sort of thing.
8:37>> Yeah. you know, and and and she gets
8:39down there and um she met a girl
8:43uh called Teria Moore um who was a a
8:47lesbian and uh so right, next question.
8:50Where do we go from here? Well,
8:53um,
8:55you know, her her court case was, like
8:57you said, she met Ty, who became her
9:00best friend, and they they were in a
9:02relationship for for some time. And, um,
9:05you know, just looking at her court
9:06case, she her attorney was a guy called
9:11Steve Glazer. I think his nickname was
9:13Dr. illegal because that was the I think
9:16that was his phone number to his uh to
9:19his uh law his law practice.
9:23>> Most of us will probably never worry
9:24about spending time in jail. But if you
9:26are ever involved in the criminal
9:28justice system, you will need a lawyer
9:30who
9:30>> but you know there there's been a lot of
9:32accounts that this guy had no clue. He
9:34was in over his head. He didn't know
9:36what he was doing because she was
9:37essentially the first female serial
9:39killer um in the US. you know, there's
9:43stories that, you know, he didn't
9:45investigate, you know, some of the cops.
9:48He didn't try to get her a better deal.
9:49He was apparently he was a pthead, so he
9:53smoked a lot of marijuana. He was
9:54apparently high during her deposition.
9:57Um, you know, so she didn't really,
10:00according to many, get a fair shake in
10:02the in the whole trial. And um this guy
10:05was apparently also kind of making media
10:08deals on the side to kind of capitalize
10:10off the you know the story at the time
10:13that was Eileen Wenos.
10:15>> She drew the short she drew the short
10:17story with Glacia. I mean yeah
10:19>> you've only got to look at him on videos
10:20and stuff. He's like a biker a hippie
10:23>> stoned out stoned out of his tiny brains
10:26all the time.
10:27>> You're quite correct. He did deals
10:29pocketing cash from media people,
10:32newspaper reporters. um you know when he
10:35turned up in court he he probably could
10:37hardly stand up or he was seeing double.
10:40I mean, she really drew the short straw
10:42with him, but I've got a feeling, you
10:44know, courtapp appointed lawyer,
10:47whatever you call it out there, and they
10:49call it in the states, but um you know,
10:52you there are numerous cases where these
10:55these people get a public defender
10:59and you know,
11:00>> they look like they've just dressed
11:02themselves in something out of a bag
11:03outside a charity shop.
11:05>> Yeah. You know,
11:08you know, I mean, there's cases I've
11:10worked on where the lawyers have come in
11:12drunk and fallen asleep
11:16and then the judge said, "Mr. So and so,
11:19are you listening to this?" And he goes,
11:20"Guilty, my lord, judge." [laughter]
11:23And then, I mean, they said, "When are
11:25we going to play golf again?" I mean,
11:26that's it. They come out of this
11:28drunken, you know, these terrible
11:29things. It's awful.
11:32and he well he featured in uh Nick
11:34Broomfield's documentary about her as
11:36well. Um and you know then fast
11:40forwarding to you know there there's
11:41stories that there were crooked cops,
11:42there were movie deals being made. There
11:44wasn't really much of much much focus on
11:46the evidence. I believe that, you know,
11:48when we get to her victims, her first
11:50victim, um, Richard Mallerie,
11:54I mean, this guy served, if I'm correct,
11:57he served a 10-year prison sentence for
11:59sexual assault,
12:01>> which was never brought up in trial.
12:03>> No, no, no. Yeah. Let's um let's just um
12:07let's just think about this for a
12:08second. Now, Richard Charles Mallerie,
12:1051 years old,
12:11>> lived the other side lived on the other
12:14side of um the state uh on the west
12:18coast. I think he had an electrical
12:20repair business uh fixed tellies and all
12:23that sort of stuff. He had a shocking
12:28back history narrative of abusing women,
12:32beating up prostitutes. Um he served
12:36time for that. He had uh he was a
12:39vicious man. And then what he would do
12:42every weekend or so and he had two two
12:44vehicles, but every weekend if he got a
12:46chance, he would go drive east
12:50across the state um to to to because he
12:54couldn't they couldn't he couldn't
12:55really go in the red light districts of
12:56where he lived because he was too well
12:58known as a a a bad person.
13:01>> Uh and he would drive across the state.
13:04Um, and that was on one of those drives
13:06that he met Lee Werneros.
13:11>> Okay.
13:12>> Again, you're right. This none of this
13:14came out at trial,
13:17>> which I mean, which which is kind of
13:19amazing. Um, because she said it was in
13:21self-defense.
13:23And how her lawyer didn't bring this up
13:26is I mean, it's crazy. It's insane. She
13:28didn't really have a fair a fair shake
13:30of things at, you know, in trial. I
13:31mean, yes, she killed people, but You
13:34know, again, it's it's it's a tough one.
13:37She was dealt a raw hand in life.
13:40>> Look, you know, I'm going to get a box
13:41of tissues if you carry on like this.
13:44[laughter]
13:47>> I'm going to start crying in a minute.
13:49Look, [laughter]
13:50>> we'll get we'll get to the other victims
13:52in a minute if we may.
13:54>> Yeah.
13:54>> But let's put it this way,
13:57and this is a fact. Lee had 200 clients.
14:01She went with over 200 men.
14:04And when it came to a trial, a lot of
14:07those men and who were married risked
14:10their reputation
14:12>> to say, "Look, I'm going to go and I
14:14need to go to court and I need to tell
14:16the lawyer, this lawyer, that she was a
14:18good girl. You did the business with her
14:20like any other hooker." Yeah.
14:22>> And you know, she you got you got off
14:24with her and and that's it. you paid her
14:26the money and you both went your
14:27separate ways because what's the point
14:29in killing your clients
14:33>> repeat business. So we come back to
14:35Charles Richard Mallerie
14:38now she she if he'd have behaved himself
14:42and been nice to her and done the
14:45business and been honorable and he
14:48picked her up in the pouring rain. you
14:49standing under a freeway bridge, you
14:52know, something something. And um he
14:55didn't he he he went and got a six pack
14:58of beer or whatever it was or he had it
15:00in his car and they went somewhere to do
15:03the business. Then he started beating on
15:05her. That was his that was his way of
15:07treating women generally, not just Lee.
15:11And I don't blame her. She pulled out a
15:14pistol and blew his brains out.
15:17>> Yeah.
15:18end of story. And I think like I think I
15:21mentioned it to you before. Um, if that
15:24had happened with Peter Suckliffe, the
15:26Yorkshire Ripper in England, or Steve
15:28Wright, the Ipsswitch serial killer who
15:30beat up and killed prostitutes, one of
15:33those girls had a gun and shot him. A
15:35lot of other girls would have lived.
15:38>> Yeah, true. Well, again, this wasn't I
15:42mean, his his his his prior convictions
15:44weren't brought up in trial, which is
15:46just which is insane to me. And um well,
15:49now we get now the argument is okay, but
15:51were all of her victims um you know,
15:55were there killings in self-defense as
15:57well, which
15:59>> Yeah. Well, look, look now, let's be
16:01real now. Let's really come down to the
16:03nitty-gritty, shall we?
16:04>> Yeah. Lot lots of men go with working
16:09girls and prostitutes,
16:11okay? Businessmen, lifeline executives
16:16and everything else because it's uh they
16:20put it on their credit cards and debit
16:21cards and expenses right now. That's
16:25what it's the oldest profession in the
16:27world. I think it's one of the first
16:29great inventions. I think the second
16:31great invention was the pizza if I
16:33remember right.
16:35Oh, no. Electric toaster. That was the
16:37second one. [laughter]
16:40But the the thing is that all of those
16:44seven men that went with her, six other
16:46men that went with her
16:49um
16:51are brought out at trial and come out as
16:53as being pillars of the community.
16:55Right. So there's a there's a moral
16:58[ __ ] here because the the their back
17:02histories are not, you know, oh, he was
17:05a former police officer, he [snorts] was
17:07this, he was a saucious man salesman, he
17:09was, you know, had a he was engaged.
17:12>> Husband.
17:13>> Yeah. And they're still using the
17:15services of a prostitute.
17:17>> Exactly.
17:19>> Right. So,
17:21uh, same with, um,
17:24some of the lots of women that I've I've
17:26wor worked on the cases with. So, you
17:28got to look at their actual underlying
17:30morals.
17:32Now, when you take that, you know, when
17:35you think 200 men she went with and she
17:37only blew away six,
17:40>> that says something. What what did they
17:43do to her to cause her
17:47to to blow to explode?
17:50>> Yeah, cuz well, you know, if you if you
17:52look at that ratio, she in actual fact,
17:54she killed what 3% of her client base.
17:57>> Yeah.
17:58>> Which is minimal.
18:00>> Yeah.
18:00>> Yeah. [laughter]
18:02>> I mean I mean this is ser you do make me
18:06laugh. You know you're bad. Um,
18:08[laughter] I'm I'm trying to keep a
18:11straight face here, but no, you're
18:12right. 3%. I mean, you know, that's
18:14pretty good going if you ask me.
18:16>> And he said, "You're a dead [ __ ]
18:18You're dead." And he's wiping his eyes
18:21and I laid down real quick and I grabbed
18:24my bag and he was starting to come for
18:28for me when I grabbed my bag and threw
18:31whipped my pistol out toward him.
18:33>> Then there was the one guy, Peter Sims.
18:36I think this was her third victim. She
18:39wasn't charged on this because his body
18:40was never found.
18:42>> Yeah. Peter Abraham Sims, 65 years old,
18:45married all his life. Um Bible thumper.
18:49>> Neighbors always used to say, "Oh,
18:51Peter's a wonderful man, you know,
18:53God-fearing man, you know, and they used
18:55to they used to they used to see him
18:56loading up the trunk of his car with
18:58piles of Bi Bibles to go and preach the
19:00Holy Book."
19:02>> Yeah. Yeah. [laughter]
19:05So, so what do you think went wrong
19:07there? Do you think he was kind of um
19:10can he be categorized in the same
19:14I suppose vein as the as the other the
19:16other six like a obviously not as bad as
19:19Merine, but I mean he
19:21>> No, no, I wouldn't. You know, he he
19:23probably wasn't a I mean, let's take
19:25each one at a time, you know. We I mean
19:27I'm wasn't in the car. I I don't know
19:29what actually happened and nor do you,
19:30nor does anybody else, but I wouldn't
19:32mind petting that he saw her
19:35hitchhiking.
19:36Pretty little girl
19:39um and decided he wanted to uh have sex
19:43with her, you know, give her a lift,
19:45give her a ride, and then um probably
19:49start reading the gospels to her in the
19:52car.
19:54But the upshot was that again he he
19:59wanted to go somewhere quiet with her
20:00and have sex. Now this is a Bible
20:02thumper.
20:03>> Yeah.
20:03>> And we we all know we all know and it's
20:06a proven thing that these lot of these
20:09churchmen are just as bad as anything
20:11else. You think of the Catholic Church
20:12the amount of sex scandals in that
20:15>> it's in it's exactly what I was
20:17thinking. Now it's um it's it's a
20:20phenomenon. Um,
20:23I mean there was I watched a movie
20:26a while back called Spotlight. Um, which
20:29is about this Boston news investigative
20:31newspaper and um I mean they they
20:34uncovered
20:36you know this whole [ __ ] show that was
20:38happening in the uh in the Catholic
20:40church and it's and it's across the
20:42globe.
20:43>> Yeah. It's it it's in every church.
20:46>> Yeah.
20:46>> Uh and they're basically moral and
20:48religious bigots.
20:50Correct. Yes.
20:51>> And it's rife. So it's no surprise that
20:55um Charles Eddie Caraden was a Bible
20:59thumper that happily married you know um
21:03seems seems was 65 and and that he's
21:06preaching the Bible to all and sunundry
21:09a bit like BTK used to go to church
21:12every Sunday and preach the Bible and go
21:14door knocking and stuff like that but
21:17still have this secret hidden
21:20you know need to use a prostitute if one
21:23one comes up.
21:24>> Yeah, that's something which which
21:26always and it's funny that you mentioned
21:27BTK because a lot of these and you know
21:31a lot of the victims I'm not
21:32categorizing every single victim but
21:35whenever you watch some of these
21:36documentaries or these uh crime shows
21:39the victim is always a standup person.
21:44She or he had everything going for them.
21:47you know, this was like, you know, just
21:50the best person, most credible person in
21:52the world. It's it's always kind of kind
21:55of like that. And, you know, her victims
21:58ex well, except for Mallerie was kind of
22:00in the same, you know, put in the same
22:03light.
22:04>> Yeah. The this is where her lawyer
22:07just didn't do his job because
22:10background, he would have turned around
22:11to the jury and he said, "Now, what are
22:13these men doing with the prostitute if
22:15they're that?" Exactly.
22:17>> You know, but he didn't he that was it.
22:19And what he's doing, in fact, is he's
22:22painting her black blacker than black
22:25when she was basically a streetwise girl
22:29and she loved Teria more. They kill keep
22:32calling her a psychopath. Well, she
22:33certainly wasn't because she adored
22:35Teria and would do anything for her.
22:39>> She was only earning money to get by.
22:41And you know, millions of thousands of
22:43prostitutes do it every year. And you
22:44can't say they're bad to do that, you
22:46know, they have to survive.
22:48>> Yeah. I mean, she took she took care of
22:50Tyra by basically getting funds from
22:53prostitution. Well, from being a
22:55prostitute
22:56>> behind Tyra was doing a lot of beer
22:58drinking and stuff. She wanted to go out
23:00all the time. So, she was burning up the
23:01money I was making.
23:04>> You know, if she paid the rent on the
23:06trailer place and, you know, bought her
23:08clothes and food and everything else. I
23:11mean,
23:12you know, I mean, I spend a lot of time
23:14in the Philippines. I got the
23:15Philippines sweatshirt on today, you
23:16know, and there's a lot of prostitutes
23:18out there, but they they the thing is
23:20out there, the men the men go with the
23:23girls, I mean, you know, and then they
23:25give them baby and they they leave and
23:27the girls just want to fall in love and
23:28be happy. Um, and these some of these
23:30girls are beautiful, others not. They're
23:33on drugs and you and prostitution
23:36worldwide. You've got to look at these
23:37girls and say you're not you're not bad.
23:39You're just having to get by in today's
23:42hard society.
23:44>> Well, the thing exactly I mean I don't
23:47think anyone wakes up or you know when
23:49you're a child you you know your goal in
23:51life is to be a prostitute. I think you
23:54know it's it's all down to you were well
23:56first of all it's life choices you
23:59was dealt a bad hand probably as bad as
24:02you can get. um you know, pregnant at at
24:06uh what 13 um abused by a grandfather.
24:10Her mom gave her up I think when she was
24:136 months old or something like that. and
24:16her mom was, you know, I saw this
24:20interview with her mom where she's
24:23basically asking Eileen to forgive her
24:26and she claims that she could have had
24:28brain damage because
24:30she was born with her, you know, the
24:33wrong way around. She was born feet
24:35first or something like that. But I
24:36mean, I've, you know, it's difficult to
24:38have sympathy with a woman like that,
24:40especially coming out now,
24:43um, or then when she did to the media
24:46and Yeah.
24:48>> Do you know the exact date
24:51of the execution?
24:54>> I think it's soon.
24:56>> Okay.
24:57>> I think it's very soon.
25:00>> I think I'll rest better.
25:04>> Yeah. Lee Lee despised her mother. I
25:06mean, she never forgave her mother. Her
25:08mother came back, you know, again, she
25:10did this interview. You know, I love
25:12Lee, you know, we want to get back blah
25:14blah blah. But that's only for the
25:16cameras or whatever it was.
25:18>> 100%. Yeah.
25:20>> When we say her defense was bad, I mean,
25:22it was really bad. The guy, he did
25:25nothing.
25:27>> Well, he did less than nothing.
25:30[laughter]
25:30>> He did [ __ ] all.
25:33Well, that's not exactly a legal term,
25:35but you're getting close to it. Yeah. I
25:38mean, it's a disgusting a disgusting
25:41thing. I mean, it's just the man was the
25:44man ought to hang his head in shame and
25:47he he instead of him getting on
25:49television and, you know, I think Nick
25:52Broomfield exposed him quite well.
25:56>> He said my film got him run out of town.
25:59>> [ __ ] you.
26:02[ __ ] you with your documentary.
26:04>> I think that that that man should be
26:07people in America should look at this
26:09man and watch him walking down the road
26:11and they ought to shout and scream and
26:12throw eggs at him because that man is
26:14[snorts] is he he he's got this massive
26:19ego,
26:20you know, and he's a nobody and he's c
26:23he caused this woman to go to the to her
26:27death. And I think that's terrible.
26:29while trying to capitalize on on the
26:31story and accepting these side deals for
26:34interviews. I heard he he accepted or he
26:36asked for $25,000
26:39for some interview.
26:41>> Now whether this is true or not, you
26:42know,
26:44it probably is true to be honest. Um but
26:46I mean they should they should disbar
26:48him.
26:49>> I don't I don't know that well yeah but
26:51I mean you know I don't know whether
26:54they disbarred him or not but I mean he
26:55should he should have been let's put it
26:57this way. should have been shot. I mean,
26:59but he wasn't the only one. He wasn't
27:01the only one. I mean, the cops were all
27:02I mean, when I went down there and I was
27:04I was talking to is it Bonifford or
27:06somebody like that, Captain Bonifford,
27:08you know, they were loving it. They were
27:10just saying, "Well, we we were selling
27:12our stories to the newspapers and we
27:14were making stuff up and um you know, I
27:17got a new car out of it and he my friend
27:19got this and that." I mean, they're a
27:21bunch of crooks.
27:23>> Now, the thing is as as 100% correct.
27:26So, there were crooked cops as well,
27:28which he also, well, the lawyer Blazer
27:30also didn't investigate. And it's kind
27:33of almost like a hole got dug too deep
27:36for her to get out any, you know, in any
27:38way, shape, or form. Um, because I mean,
27:41they'd have to expose crooked cops.
27:43They'd have to uh, you know, the victims
27:46were going to be shamed and rightfully
27:48well, some of them obviously rightfully
27:50so. Um, like Maller's case. So, it was
27:54it was just it was just a [ __ ] show.
27:56>> Yeah. I I don't think I think I mean I
28:02I've got no words for it. I've I've got
28:05no words for it. Um the girl didn't have
28:09a chance.
28:10>> No, she
28:12>> Yeah. Sorry.
28:13>> I find that's why I wrote the book. I
28:16mean, I I'll let you into a little
28:18secret. Don't go and tell all your
28:19viewers, but I'll tell you a little
28:21secret. All right, viewers. You can I
28:24can I'll share it with the thousands of
28:26you listening now.
28:28>> When I wrote that book, the first book,
28:30my talking serial killers book, my
28:32publisher said to me, "You've got men in
28:34there, Chris. Let's have a woman." And I
28:37chose I did a chapter on Lee Wernos.
28:42Now,
28:43I'm an exor marine. I'm, you know, a
28:46green bear. I don't I don't shed tears
28:49easily. M
28:51>> I started reading it up on Lee and I
28:55ended up going out to a store and
28:57getting a bottle of whiskey
29:00and I was drinking this whiskey when I
29:02was and I I burst into tears after a
29:04short while. Now that says something and
29:08I started drinking and I I haven't
29:10stopped smoking. Well, I have put
29:11cigarettes down but I haven't stopped
29:12smoking since. that deep deep that so
29:16deeply deeply affected me. And I said to
29:19my publisher, John Blake, this is the
29:22worst thing I've ever had to even think
29:25about writing.
29:27>> It's breaking my heart. I couldn't
29:30sleep. I was reading these documents. I
29:32was reading about this lawyer and and
29:34because obviously I went down there then
29:36made a TV documentary and um and I'm
29:39thinking to myself, this must be a man's
29:42thing about a woman. I'm being it's a
29:44man's thing. I'm I'm upset because it's
29:46a woman that's going to be executed
29:50>> and and it affected me a great deal. And
29:53that's why I think
29:56I can only say to you that I I still
30:00um get very upset talking about is all
30:03right, we're having a bit of a giggle,
30:04but I get upset today even over and I've
30:07interviewed a lot of serial killers. In
30:09fact, when I give lectures or I go on TV
30:11and they and like we're doing now, we're
30:14doing this podcast,
30:16people, some of the so-called top
30:19forensics psychologists or psychiatrists
30:22in this country, they might turn around
30:24and say, "Well, of course, cuz she was a
30:25psychopath." I say, "Well, she [ __ ] she
30:29she she and I argue the toss." And they
30:32actually start now are starting to come
30:33around agree she had a lot of love in
30:36her and she needed loving because of the
30:39way her parents had brought her up and
30:41the grandfather had brought her up and
30:43she's a little kid [clears throat] and
30:45she needed somebody to hang on to and
30:47she got that with terri and when she
30:50went with these guys it was purely
30:51business that's all it was
30:54>> and these idiots these horrible men who
30:58went with her used her because of the ex
31:02and then started abusing her in some
31:04dark woods or some lane somewhere
31:08and beat up on her and that she then
31:11started thinking about her grandfather
31:13what he did to her.
31:15>> Yeah.
31:15>> And that inner fury don't please don't
31:18hurt me don't hurt me and they carried
31:20on abusing her
31:22and so she shot [ __ ] good luck.
31:28I mean to me she probably had the worst
31:33childhood imaginable. Um I mean the
31:36system failed her from when she was born
31:41to when she was executed in my opinion.
31:43I mean, how child social or social
31:46services or something didn't kind of
31:48step in and see what was going on
31:51because I I believe the whole town kind
31:53of knew,
31:55you know, about her upbringing, how she,
31:57you know, she used to trade sexual
31:58favors when she was
32:01I think it was she was in her early
32:03teens or she might not even have been in
32:05her teens, I'm not sure. She used to
32:07trade sexual favors for cigarettes. They
32:09used to call her a cigarette pig.
32:12Yeah.
32:13>> To kind of get out of a situation like
32:16that, plus you you're abused, your
32:18mother gave you up. You're abused by
32:20your grandfather. Um, pregnant at 13,
32:24then you kicked out the house because
32:26supposed I I think she had a good
32:27relationship with her grandmother, but
32:29her grandmother had a drinking problem
32:30if I'm not mistaken.
32:32>> Yeah. And she got pregnant. I think
32:33you're right. There was a grandfather's
32:35friend um that [ __ ] her and then um he
32:38threw her they threw her out into the
32:40cold. um social services
32:43were non-existent. Nobody came in to
32:46rescue her. Um nobody at her school,
32:49teachers, nobody.
32:50>> Yeah.
32:51>> You know, they there was nothing. There
32:53was no lifeboat for her.
32:55>> Nobody there.
32:56>> Nothing.
32:57>> So I mean, how how is she supposed to
33:01have turned out? It's probably one of
33:04the sad when your your your viewers and
33:06your your listeners hear what you've had
33:09to say, what we're saying now. Yeah. So,
33:11they they they read her, take some time
33:14to read into her and and what you what
33:16we did with when we did with Joanne
33:18Denny, we talked about the fact that she
33:20had alcohol and she was having drugs at
33:22a very young age and that affects the
33:24brain.
33:25>> Yeah. and and and but added to added to
33:27this alcohol abuse when she was
33:29pregnant, Lee was pregnant and very
33:31young. All all of this negative
33:35imprinting from her father her
33:37grandfather knowing her father was a
33:39child molester that hung himself in
33:40prison. He her Leo Pittman whatever his
33:44name was hung himself later he committed
33:47suicide. That was her dad. A mother was
33:49alcoholic.
33:51All of that affects a child's brain
33:54>> 100%. Definitely.
33:56>> There was no going back. She had nowhere
33:58to go. She could only go forward and she
34:01ha had because of her nature drifted
34:04into prostitution and seven men really
34:08upset her, abused her, and she was going
34:10to have none of it.
34:12>> Put it this way, it would have been a
34:14miracle if she came out of all of this
34:18being abandoned by her mom. Her dad was
34:20a um basically a pedophile. He he
34:23committed suicide in prison. Her
34:24grandfather, all this stuff. If she came
34:27out as an upstanding citizen after that,
34:30it would have been a miracle.
34:32I mean, let's just look at what led to
34:35her capture, which is pretty interesting
34:36as well. So, investigators found um you
34:39know, Florida is a pretty transient
34:41state, I believe, and everyone used to
34:44you know, basically porn everything. and
34:46investigators I think believe went to a
34:49few porn shops and um they found I think
34:52some of Maller's items which was stolen
34:56and with that they found a ticket with a
34:59thumbrint and the name of Cammy Marsh
35:02Green.
35:04>> Yeah.
35:04>> And um it turned out okay the name was
35:07false but the fingerprint was wenoses
35:09and then they came they came upon the
35:10name.
35:12>> Yeah.
35:13And then there was an undercover agent,
35:16Mike Joiner.
35:18>> I'm Mike Joiner. I worked undercover for
35:21the Citrus County Sheriff's Department.
35:23>> We visited the last resort biker bar
35:26which was frequented by Weenos
35:28regularly. And yeah, then you know, long
35:31story short, she got arrested.
35:34>> Yeah. Well, that again that you know
35:36when when I was down in Florida, I I
35:39spent quite a bit of time with the
35:40Florida Department of Law Enforcement,
35:42the FDLE,
35:44um the director actually. We got on very
35:47well indeed and we went through this
35:49this case.
35:51And uh he said to me,
35:55"Upon reflection, Christopher,
35:59we
36:00law enforcement
36:02put her on that table and there was no
36:04need for it."
36:09>> When you you talking about the
36:11execution?
36:12>> Yeah.
36:13>> Yeah. What should her punishments have
36:15been?
36:16Well,
36:18in an I in an ideal world, if she'd have
36:21a bloody good lawyer who' done his
36:24proper homework
36:26and gone through these people to say,
36:27"Well, look, Richard Mallerie wasn't
36:29this is what he was like. This is why he
36:32got shot. This is his
36:34>> then gone through each one now." All
36:35right. Nobody likes to dig up people's
36:38excuse [snorts] me, dig, excuse the pun,
36:40dig up their past and everything else.
36:42It doesn't bode well to speak ill of the
36:45dead. But when a girl's life's on the
36:47line
36:49and what are these men the simple
36:51question is what are these upstanding
36:53men doing with a prostitute in a car in
36:56some lane or layby. What's that what's
36:59that about? Where that's all a lawyer
37:01has to put in the jury's mind.
37:04>> Well, the thing is it's not it's not
37:06nice to dig it up. But I mean, if she's
37:08if she's saying it's self-defense, it's
37:10pretty much your job to dig it up.
37:12>> Yes, that's all we can ask. Look and
37:14look at the jury and say, "Now, look,
37:16you know, we she's put her hands up to
37:18it. She shot them. She's admitted that."
37:21Um,
37:23she's admitted that one minute. She's
37:25saying, "Oh, it was in self-defense."
37:27Next, you know, then she's telling, then
37:29she's telling people later on, Nick
37:31Broomfield and that, you know, he he
37:32actually believed in the self-defense
37:34thing. Yeah. And then she she's losing
37:36the plot alto together and then she's
37:38saying no I I just wanted to rob them.
37:41Well, you know, she had nothing to lose
37:44then. She just wanted to get on that let
37:46on that uh lethal injection gurnie. I
37:49mean she going to run to that gurnie and
37:52>> willingly been strapped down. I mean, at
37:54the end of her life, she was absolutely
37:58helpless, furious,
38:01angry, the way she'd been misused and
38:05stitched up by men, right up until the
38:09judge and to the state of the Florida's
38:11governor, everybody else. That girl, she
38:14wanted to die. She wanted to get her
38:16over with. And she, that's exactly what
38:18she said.
38:19>> Yeah. She didn't want to. I think in
38:21Broomfield's documentary as well, there
38:23was kind of a a bit where she wasn't
38:26filmed, but her her voice was her voice
38:30was recorded where she said she doesn't
38:32want to change the story to, you know,
38:34the self-defense thing again because it
38:37could impede her execution or it could
38:39prolong it or or whatever the case may
38:42be. So, she she had enough.
38:46>> Was it self-defense? Yes, but I can't
38:49tell anybody.
38:51>> Yeah. Yeah. And the other thing is apart
38:53from all of that, she's lost the true
38:55love of her life, which was Teria Moore.
38:58>> Teria M basically sold her out. She
39:00turned state witness. And she got her to
39:04confess via recorded telephone calls.
39:06And you know, it's just that it's that
39:09again, it's it's her true love and she
39:13was betrayed by her as well.
39:15Well, there's a there's a dark side to
39:17this business and I'm glad you mentioned
39:19it.
39:22In my book, I after reading all of the
39:25stuff and after interviewing police and
39:28stuff down in Florida,
39:31I know that Teria Moore was with Lee
39:35when they shot a man.
39:38>> She came by. They went and got some gas
39:40and petrol. I forget which car it was
39:42in, but the one of the it was one of the
39:44victim's cars. He was in the car at the
39:46time. Teria was in the They went into a
39:48gas station. There was a receipt which
39:51the police had which proved with this
39:54gas station attendant
39:56uh and other forensic stuff they they
39:59harvested that Terraria Moore was
40:01present at at least one of those
40:02murders.
40:05Now the bad the bad part about that is
40:08the police told her that
40:11we can put you on that gurnie as well.
40:15Um
40:17but we want you to cooperate with us.
40:20>> Yeah.
40:20>> And Teria was terrified
40:23>> and these police going to interview her
40:26and knocking on her door and telling her
40:28what they knew and what they didn't
40:29know. And they said, "Look, the only way
40:31you're going to get out of this is
40:33you've got to phone Lee and tell her
40:36that the police are after you, after
40:39me." That's how that came about.
40:42>> So, she was granted immunity in a sense.
40:45>> Absolutely.
40:46>> Yeah.
40:47>> She she you know, she they were pawning
40:50this stolen property together and she
40:52didn't even get done for handling stolen
40:55property.
40:56>> Yeah. Yeah. She got off scot-free. Yeah.
41:02Um, you know, the victim's
41:05wives and family that came, you know,
41:07that came forward and said,
41:10you know, husbands would never cheat,
41:12would never do this.
41:14Okay.
41:16Then you got you look at Troy Burus
41:19who was a sausage,
41:22>> you know, and he
41:24he was engaged to be married.
41:28He picked her up in his sausage van,
41:30whatever it was. And um you know what's
41:34he doing with it? What's he doing with a
41:37hooker in his van?
41:40And he's engaged. He's supposed to be
41:42engaged. He's like the guy with the
41:43Bibles.
41:45upstanding members of the community,
41:48engaged to be married, beautiful wife to
41:50be, picks up a prostitute. What happens?
41:53Bang. Starts knocking her about and she
41:56pulls out a gun and shoots him.
41:59>> Yeah. And the I suppose the irony is
42:01he's a sausage salesman. Um,
42:05[cough]
42:06>> so yeah. Yeah. [laughter]
42:10>> No, it's it's
42:12Yeah. AP apologies to to viewers. It's
42:16it's just yeah, you know, dark sense of
42:18humor, whatever. Um,
42:21yeah, it's it's it was a it was a
42:24strange it was a strange a strange the
42:27whole thing is just a [ __ ] I mean,
42:28it's I don't know how else to summarize
42:30it, but um and she was executed on
42:33October 9th, and she requested to be
42:36cremated with her Bible. I think she got
42:38very religious uh towards the end, I
42:41believe.
42:42Well,
42:44you know, I I let's uh let's get
42:46realistic now. I mean, um just about
42:49every person on death row suddenly finds
42:52the light and turns to God.
42:53>> Yeah.
42:54>> You know, uh I don't know why. I mean,
42:56they haven't ever been in a church in
42:58their life. And you know, and their last
43:00days are in their appeal. They suddenly
43:02find God. I don't know how he
43:03mysteriously gets into these prisons,
43:04but he bloody well does. [laughter]
43:09He does. He doesn't come around to my
43:11house very often. I can tell you that,
43:12Mr. [laughter]
43:16But the point of that is, you know, I I
43:18think, you know, maybe she read the
43:21Bible. Um whether she took it all in or
43:23not, I mean, she wasn't she wasn't a
43:26sane woman at the end, she was
43:27completely falling apart. Maybe she
43:30skimmed through it. She read a few
43:32passages of the Bible. Whether she
43:33turned to to God or not, you know, um I
43:37don't I don't believe that she actually
43:38found God. I think it was just something
43:41she throw out there.
43:44>> Well, I think you know, you know, during
43:46her final days as well, I think during
43:48her final interview, um, she also said
43:51that there was, you know, her mind got
43:54manipulated due to sonic pressure and
43:57there were cameras in the mirrors and,
43:59you know, this whole conspiracy thing
44:01kind of came out
44:02>> and they were using sonic pressure on my
44:05head since 1997.
44:08the TV or the mirror, something was
44:10rigged.
44:11>> But I mean, you know, at some stage her
44:15her psyche is going to get affected in
44:18such a way where she's not I mean, she's
44:21going to be a bit
44:23>> I think I think when your your viewers
44:26um look at the documentary with Nick
44:28Broomfield and and see her furious and
44:31angry and spitting rage.
44:33>> Yeah. They they your viewers and we
44:37ourselves the two of us will look at her
44:41manic swearing and shouting and and you
44:44think ah easily she's a serial killer.
44:46She's she's a real that's an evil woman.
44:49>> I know I was raped. You ain't nothing
44:51but a bunch of stump.
44:52>> Therefore these proceedings are now
44:54>> putting somebody who was raped.
44:59You immediately get that in your mind.
45:01You think, "God, she that is one sick
45:04mother of a a woman. She's got but
45:07inside her,
45:09she was a good girl."
45:12>> And she was driven. She was driven
45:15to that state for everything you've
45:17mentioned so far. From the day she was
45:20born to the day they strapped her on
45:22that gurnie,
45:24she was [ __ ] over over and over with
45:27crooked cops, a stupid lawyer, the whole
45:30judicial system. No wonder her brain
45:33went
45:33>> I mean even the judge said
45:36um may God have mercy on your corpse.
45:40>> Yeah. Well,
45:42another [ __ ]
45:44>> Yeah. Well, the other thing is as well
45:46that that you need to look at. She she
45:48didn't shoot her victim her victims
45:50once. I mean, David Spears was shot six
45:53times. Charles Karan was shot nine
45:56times. I mean, these are She's She's
45:59She's pissed off. She had a temper. And
46:03again, it's Yeah, you have got a
46:07remarkable turn of words. [gasps]
46:11She was pissed off.
46:15>> She was [laughter]
46:17That's an understatement
46:21it because
46:23she's gone there just to do the business
46:26and get paid and everybody goes their
46:29happy ways.
46:30>> Yeah.
46:31>> Like the 200 guys she went with. That
46:34was all. And when some bloke starts
46:37dragging her out the car and stripping
46:38her off and he's he's bollock naked
46:42anyway and she be beating on her and
46:45abusing her and swearing at her and you
46:47know and drunk.
46:50Of course she's got bloody mad.
46:52>> Yeah.
46:52>> That all comes back to the way she was
46:54abused as a child
46:57and she wants her revenge and she takes
47:00she doesn't kill her grandfather. I bet
47:03she wish he had done. Yeah. But the
47:05point is she's seeing those men who are
47:08like her grandfather telling everybody
47:10in the neighborhood he's an upstanding
47:12man. You know, he's a he's a religious
47:14man. You don't know what goes on behind
47:16closed doors. And she that anger came
47:19out that and she was repaying those men
47:22in her grandfather's image. And I don't
47:24blame her.
47:27You ask any of your women viewers if
47:30they were brought up like that in that
47:32sort of situation,
47:35you grow up to hate men with a passion.
47:37You can't trust them.
47:39>> And a man a man starts beating up on on
47:42your girls. You lose the plot and you
47:46know, you take your anger out of them.
47:48And I I don't blame him one bit.
47:52>> Did you ever interview him?
47:54>> Only very briefly. I got I got slung
47:56out. I I I went to see somebody else. I
47:58saw her very briefly in the cell and
48:00started to talk to her, but the guards
48:02moved me on a bit swiftly.
48:04>> Um you know that's uh it does happen
48:07sometimes. I got one guy, James Paul in
48:10um New Jersey, the serial killer.
48:13I went to interview him. I took a whole
48:16film crew up there. Um and uh he had
48:19agreed to me to interview him and um
48:22when we he sat down the other side the
48:25plexiglass sweating in white face a
48:27horrible man and um he I said right okay
48:31this is great thanks very much to see
48:32him. He said no you can [ __ ] off.
48:35[laughter]
48:36>> Oh okay.
48:37>> He called the guards and he said get him
48:39out.
48:40That was it. It does unfortunately it
48:43does come with the territory that you
48:44get close to sometimes and you get
48:46booted out for whatever reason.
48:49>> I think I think Nick Broomfield deserves
48:51a medal for what he did. [clears throat]
48:53>> Yeah,
48:55definitely. Well, and the the other
48:57heartbreaking thing is she actually said
49:00if she came from a stable family, she
49:02would have likely become I think a
49:04paramedic, a firefighter, an
49:06archaeologist was something that she
49:08mentioned or a missionary.
49:12Um,
49:13>> so she kind of recognized as well that,
49:16you know, she came from anything but a
49:18stable family. I mean, it was as
49:20unstable as as as you can get. Um,
49:23>> yeah, I I think you sum it up perfectly
49:26and I shall remember what you said now
49:28in the future um when I'm giving a talk
49:30or lecture or something. Uh she started
49:33from the bottom
49:35and from there on she literally went
49:37downhill from the bottom there on and
49:39there was no back. There was no
49:43>> she never had a chance in life and
49:44that's it.
49:45>> No, it's you know it's Yeah, it's it's a
49:51it's a sad story but um anyways,
49:56Chris, thanks for your time [laughter]
49:59again.
50:00Now, now I'm so happy now I'm going to
50:03go out and hang myself.
50:06You always, you always make my day
50:08cheerful. You do. [laughter]
50:12Well, I'm just I'm just basically
50:15talking about the work which you've
50:17done. I mean, you know, you wrote a book
50:19about her. So, it's Yeah, it's it's a
50:22true crime is fascinating. It's
50:24fascinating why people do the things
50:25that they do. And um
50:30yeah, it's also kind of it's it's also
50:32scary in in a sense as well. Um
50:35>> I've been looking at your channel and
50:36I've been looking at your podcast and
50:38everything else. So I think you do a
50:39brilliant job to be honest. You you're
50:41one of the best one of the best
50:43podcasters I've ever ever ever worked
50:44with. You go, you know.
50:46>> Oh wow. Thank you so so much. It's a
50:49treat for me.
50:50>> I I I can speak on behalf of everybody
50:53that and I I'll stick my neck out.
50:57everybody that contributes to your
50:59program and all your viewers, you know,
51:03we thank you very much indeed as well.
51:05>> Oh, wow. You're going to make me cry
51:06now. Uh [laughter]
51:09well, it's my it's my pleasure. Um like
51:12I said, welcome anytime. I could I could
51:14go on for hours about the the stuff
51:17which you've done. I mean, you've
51:18interviewed so many interesting
51:21dark people and written books about
51:24them. I tell you what I'm gonna do for
51:26you. I'm give you a special gift. I'm
51:28going to um give you first shot at Carol
51:31Bundy.
51:34>> Okay.
51:35>> Two of her people that know her very
51:38very well and Douggee Clark is guys
51:40talking to him every day literally on
51:42death row in San Quentin.
51:44I'm going to give you photographs and
51:46I'm going to give you some stuff that
51:48will blow your viewers mind on Carol
51:50Bundy. Oh, so so there's going to be a
51:52next episode.
51:54>> Well, if you want it, you can have it.
51:56You You get first.
51:57>> 100% done. Um, once we're done
52:01recording, we'll we'll get to the the
52:03dates and times. I'm I'm in. It's It's
52:06fascinating for me because I get to do
52:08research about this stuff uh kind of to
52:12talk to you about and just to kind of
52:13seem that I know what the hell I'm
52:15talking about. I don't always do, but um
52:17yeah, it's like I said, it's it's it's a
52:19privilege for me and it's I enjoy it.
52:22It's fun.
52:23>> Yeah. Well, God bless you. God bless all
52:25of your viewers and no nightmares,
52:27please.
52:28>> Oh, man. If I if I was to uh leave this
52:30planet, it wouldn't be no big deal to me
52:32cuz this is a wicked wicked world.
52:35Wicked world.

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