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AI Threatens Crypto Security — Transcript

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0:04Bankless Nation, it is the second week
0:05of Downtober, the weekly roll up. AI is
0:10breaking math. Will it break crypto as
0:13well? We're two weeks into October and
0:15blockchains are breaking according to
0:17Justin Drake.
0:19>> Not yet,
0:19>> who is calling for a mass migration of
0:22funds to more secure wallets and also
0:25tells everyone, don't panic. Uh, crypto
0:28perhaps maybe less safe than we once
0:31thought. It's all AI's fault. If you're
0:33wondering what's going on, it's AI and
0:35people are panicking.
0:36>> Oh my god, that was a doozy of a tweet
0:38for sure. Uh, David is live in
0:41Singapore, by the way. We should say
0:43that. So, at the end of the today's
0:44episode, we're going to talk about token
0:462049 and what David saw there. Did he
0:49see the end of cryptography?
0:52>> That's No, that was not a topic of
0:54discussion.
0:54>> Well, I was going to ask you if you saw
0:56Tom Lee. He gave a session at token
0:592049. Some news from that is he's going
1:01to stop buying ETH after he collects his
1:035%. He's almost there. That's the hard
1:06cap. That was a question outstanding. He
1:08answered it on the week. We'll talk
1:09about what that means. Also, two
1:12Ethereum L2s 6 feet under. They are dead
1:15than dead. Abstract and Blast and maybe
1:18Starknet next.
1:21>> Let's talk about that too. Yeah, Sarnet
1:23is not dying, but the there is a
1:25question about whether they will move
1:26off of the Ethereum layer 1 due to the
1:28quantum concerns. It all kind of comes
1:30back.
1:30>> Is that really why quantum
1:32>> I thought it was for token price?
1:34>> No, no, no, no. That that was why it's
1:37like the Starknet is already quantum
1:38resistant and so they're like, "Okay,
1:40well, our base layer is not and Justin
1:43Drake is saying get off like go move to
1:46safety."
1:47>> Yeah. And so I was like, "Okay, we'll
1:49take Justin D." Justin Drake's advice
1:52will become a layer one. Anyways, uh
1:54let's get into the markets. Uh Oto
1:56October is not a thing yet. We are still
1:58in downtober for the first eight days.
2:01Uh Bitcoin down about 3% on the week to
2:04$82,300.
2:06ETH down 6% on the week to $2500.
2:09And then the altcoins are the ones that
2:12were up bigly are down bigly as well.
2:16>> Yeah, altcoin flush does continue. I
2:18think uh you noted Zcash down about 13%,
2:21Venice down 17%, Athena down 17%. So
2:25coughing up some of those gains from uh
2:28August and September, aren't we?
2:30>> I I believe last week we talked about
2:32how there they were already down in the
2:34double digits and I I said something
2:37along the lines of if this was all that
2:39it was then it's pretty easy. We're
2:40getting off pretty easy. Thanks for
2:42saying that.
2:42>> It was it was not all that it was. Yeah.
2:45Yeah. I think what's really going on is
2:48u if we could just take last week's
2:50section, Ryan about yields are up and
2:53oil is up. We could just copy that from
2:55last week, copy paste it into this week.
2:58>> Ex except it's kind of worse when it's
3:00like six weeks in a row now of like high
3:04treasury yields and high oil prices. Uh
3:07we said this exact same line last week.
3:09Highest Treasury prices since 20 2002.
3:14The 10-year hit 5.3%. The 30 year is at
3:175.7%.
3:19Uh you know it's one thing when you're
3:21just like noticing the market like and
3:23the yields are going up. Like oh wow
3:25yields are going up. This is different.
3:27This is starting to be a little
3:27different. I think the market both
3:29crypto and the trady
3:32just because like okay that's too fast.
3:34>> That's too fast. something's going to
3:36break.
3:36>> I think another place this comes in is
3:38if you're trying to get a mortgage. So,
3:40I if you've been trying to get a
3:41mortgage lately, but um
3:42>> I have not.
3:43>> Anytime I've tried to get a mortgage
3:45over the past 10 to 15 years, I mean,
3:47the rates have been, you know, 3 4%
3:49something like that.
3:50>> Yeah. Favorable. Now, you're trying to
3:52lock in a mortgage, a 30-year fixed in
3:54the US,
3:55>> 7.5%.
3:57>> That's all downstream of treasuries. I
4:00feel like the housing market is going to
4:03feel some more than jitters in the short
4:05term.
4:06>> I mean, in the 1980s, we got into the
4:08double digit territory for a mortgage.
4:10Can you imagine locking in a mortgage at
4:12like 11 12% a 30-year?
4:14>> You have to be really into buying a
4:17house. Why would you buy right now when
4:18you could just rent?
4:20>> Well, that's kind of the maybe the
4:22bullish take on the yields and uh it was
4:25a take that you like to see. I think you
4:27included in the agenda because of that
4:29reason which is
4:30>> if you own treasuries so let's say
4:32you're a whale you're an institutional
4:34investor you have treasuries you're
4:36actually receiving that yield in the
4:38form of cash you have to pay tax on it
4:39of course but here's the take higher
4:42rates inject more money into the economy
4:44that money gets allocated to equities
4:46and the effects of passive management
4:47drive valuations higher so all of those
4:51yields converts to cash investors take
4:53that cash and they plug it right back
4:55into equities And maybe that's part of
4:57the reason we have S&P NASDAQ all-time
5:00high. At least that's one ex explanation
5:03of it. I'm not sure that I totally buy
5:05it.
5:07>> The the other thing that I always kind
5:08of just think of it when yields go up is
5:10like the whole Bitcoin the basic Bitcoin
5:13thesis of the government can't pay its
5:16debt when yields are at 5.5% versus what
5:19we were used to at like 1 or 2%. That
5:22becomes true five times faster. So if
5:25like this the debt that the government
5:26has to pay which creates money printing
5:29which creates liquidity is just is
5:31accelerating. Now a high yield
5:33environment historically has not favored
5:35Bitcoin but nonetheless like this this
5:37is ultimately accelerating the whole
5:39debasement trade.
5:40>> I mean historically it hasn't favored
5:41stocks either yet where yields are going
5:43higher and stocks are at all time highs.
5:45So, we might be just in a I mean, we
5:47talked about this last week, but we've
5:49been in kind of the low yields regime
5:52for a long time, the Zer era, that sort
5:54of thing. We might be transitioning to a
5:55a totally new regime. Oil also broke 100
5:59on the week. Why?
6:01>> Because of no new regime.
6:04>> You like what I did there?
6:05>> Sure.
6:05>> Uh yeah. Uh okay. Why? Uh there is oil
6:09flowing through the string of Hormuz. So
6:10the the the the data about the actual
6:12oil flow is like the hormuse is
6:14seemingly open but I think it's just
6:16insurance costs of the oil is really
6:19really high. So even though oil is
6:21flowing it is still expensive to ensure
6:23it because Iran is still taking its
6:25attempt to strike at tankers as as it as
6:28it goes. And so even during the actual
6:31height of the conflict there was only so
6:34many days when oil was above 100. And we
6:35are once again above $100 an oil uh for
6:38a barrel of oil.
6:40>> So we've got some headwinds in macro in
6:43the form of possible yield.
6:45>> It's a tough environment. It's a tough
6:46environment.
6:47>> It's a tough environment. At the same
6:48time, Bitcoin is not yet capitulated. I
6:51mean, you said we're only down 3% even
6:53with
6:54>> We are having a normal midbull market
6:57flush right now.
6:58>> That's right. Uh ETFs down on the week.
7:00I mean, had a pretty red day. uh you
7:03know the most red day in Bitcoin ETF
7:06since October. But on the other hand,
7:08Robin Hood added 25 million worth of
7:11Bitcoin to their balance sheet, their
7:12first purchase ever for a crypto
7:15treasury. Uh the reason they said was to
7:18align our company and vision with the
7:21crypto community. So this is not a lot
7:23of money against aundred million billion
7:26dollar market cap, but it is symbol
7:27symbolic, right? It's like you're if
7:29you're with us, you own some of our
7:30bags.
7:31>> Yeah. I uh hosted a panel with Johan,
7:34the man featured on the page right here,
7:36and also with Joseph Luben on stage. And
7:38I asked Johan when he would be
7:40allocating $25 million of ETH to his
7:43balance sheet.
7:44>> He kind of filler bustered me.
7:47>> So you didn't get a yes from that, huh?
7:49>> I did. No, he did not. I did not get
7:51confirmation that they would be doing
7:52that. Well, um, some key levels to watch
7:55according to Mike, Michael NATO on he he
7:58actually is pretty bullish Bitcoin
8:00structurally. He doesn't think we go
8:02under 78K
8:04uh, Bitcoin price. Um, and he's not
8:07worried until we drop into the 60s. Of
8:09course, if we drop below 66, it's dunzo.
8:12>> Yeah, it's already a little late. Like,
8:14h, okay, if it's if it drops below
8:1766,000, I'll sell at 82,000. No, it
8:20doesn't work like that. And he does
8:22think a key on the upside trigger point
8:23is if we get past 90 into the 90s for
8:27Bitcoin price, it's looking pretty clear
8:29to get all the way to 100K. So that
8:32could kick off a wave of speculation. So
8:35maybe there's hope for October.
8:37>> What's he say about Zcash? Did he say
8:39anything about Zcash?
8:40>> He's bullish Zcash. He's got Zcash. I I
8:43will give a little bit of a teaser of my
8:45uh takeaways from the 20 token 2049. I
8:49am bullish Zcash
8:51>> even in the face of AI that's going to
8:54break cryptography David Zcash might be
8:56going to zero along with everything
8:57else.
8:57>> Exactly. Well, not beyond mostly privacy
9:00but also exactly because of that because
9:03>> dude if in if if um AI breaks our
9:07cryptography math privacy is dunzo man
9:10it's gone we won't have privacy anymore.
9:13Uh, no. The Zcash has already got like
9:15it's already
9:16>> quantum secure,
9:18>> but not secure against AI super
9:20intelligence breaking math. At least
9:23that's what I understand. We'll get to
9:24that later. Okay, let's be bullish right
9:26now. Let's be bullish in the
9:27>> Yeah, I I'm trying to be bullish. You're
9:29making me You're trying to make me not
9:31bullish. I'm bullish.
9:33>> Let's talk about a question that's been
9:34outstanding. I know as early as uh or as
9:38recently as last August, you had Tom Lee
9:40on Bank list. I think you asked him this
9:42question, right? You asked him, "Hey
9:44Tom, you almost have 5% of all ETH
9:46supply. That's what you said you would
9:47do. Are you going to buy more?" What did
9:48he say back in August?
9:49>> What What will you do when you hit 5%.
9:53And he basically didn't give me a clear
9:55answer. He's like, "We will consider it
9:57in 2027. We're going to slow down on our
10:00way there." But he did not close the
10:02door on 5%. He kind of left the option
10:06uh open for him. Well, I think he's a
10:08bit ahead of schedule because it seems
10:10like he's decided. This is what he said
10:12at token 2049 on stage and answer that
10:16question of will Bit mine acquire over
10:195% of all ETH supply. Let's play the
10:20clip.
10:21>> Currently at 6 million. That took us a
10:24little over a year. We thought this
10:26would take 5 years. It took us a little
10:28over a year. More importantly, we did
10:32this all in the middle of a bare market.
10:34Okay. So, we bought ETH
10:38while no one wanted to buy it. We were
10:40glad to buy it cheaply. We bought a lot
10:42at 1,500, but it's in a middle of a bare
10:45market. And now we're going to stop. We
10:47only need to get another 100,000 ETH to
10:50get to 5%.
10:51>> That's it. He said, "Now we're going to
10:54stop. We only need to get another
10:56100,000 ETH to get to 5%. Uh they are
11:0098% of the way there. So they're going
11:03to finish that way ahead of schedule."
11:05He said he thought it would take him 5
11:07years. It took him one. he purchased all
11:09this ETH in the bare market. He's pretty
11:12comfy with his position. He's not going
11:14to buy more. He's just going to let it
11:17ride. Uh he also said this he gave last
11:20year at token. He gave some pretty crazy
11:23price predictions. He kind of doubled
11:25down softly on those price predictions
11:27cuz he continued in this uh talk to say
11:30now that we're we're done stacking in
11:32front of a 25x move. Okay, so 25x times
11:372500 ETH, I think we're at like 65K ETH
11:41price. So, he's not relaxing on his
11:45incredibly bullish price predictions for
11:48Ether, the asset. But he is saying, "I
11:51am done purchasing ETH in the Bit Mine
11:54vehicle for now." What's your take on
11:56this?
11:57>> Yeah, it it doesn't quite square if
12:00you're if you're telling me that ETH is
12:02going to What did he say? like a $50,000
12:05market cap.
12:06>> 65
12:08>> 65K, but he's going to stop buying it.
12:10Like, if you do believe that it's going
12:12to $65,000 mark and you also happen to
12:15have $643 million of cash on hand.
12:21Oh, okay. Okay. Whatever. Um, also he
12:25has $643 million of cash on hand and
12:27it's a 20 It's a $13.6 billion asset.
12:32Where does he get all of the cash?
12:34>> I don't know where he gets the cash.
12:35Okay. I think
12:36>> I don't know where connected right just
12:38appears.
12:40>> I remember a couple weeks ago I was
12:41saying like I really like the idea of
12:43Bitmine equity because clearly he has
12:47money just money just appears in his
12:48hand. He buys ETH with it. He's done
12:51buying ETH. He's going to use it to
12:53either invest in stuff or buy back BMNR
12:56which he is a huge shareholder of. Well,
12:58he actually answered that because there
12:59was a lot of discussion about this in
13:01the aftermath as you can imagine. A lot
13:03of um speculation, you know, some people
13:05said what you said, which was this was a
13:07take from a trader. I think he deleted
13:09the tweet. Fig Krugman, you know the
13:10tweeter. Yeah. Tom Lee thinks ETH is
13:12going to 250K or higher long-term,
13:14decides not to buy anymore after 5%.
13:17What is he doing? Right. Kind of mocking
13:19that like if you were really bullish on
13:21these numbers, you'd actually continue
13:23to buy. Uh Lex uh node had a kind of
13:26more of a galaxy brain read on this
13:28which is uh this is bullish actually. He
13:31said 5% is the materiality threshold for
13:34public companies under 13D. So what he's
13:38talking about here is a law in stocks
13:42that if you if you own over 5% of an
13:45asset, that's kind of the legal line
13:46where the buyer stops being just like a
13:48general investor and becomes more of a a
13:51regulated asset manager, a disclosed
13:53watch entity. So that could be part of
13:54the the 5% rule. But in Tom Lee's own
13:58words, someone just said, "Okay, what
14:00are they going to do with the 5%." First
14:02of all, if you want to keep 5% ETH and
14:05you're staking almost all of it, which
14:07they are, you actually have to sell ETH.
14:10This is interesting. The Bitmine vehicle
14:12becomes a net seller in order to keep
14:13within
14:14>> the 5% uh range. Like not a huge amount,
14:18but anything they stake that gets above
14:205% they would have to sell. and he said
14:23this is what Tom is going to do with
14:24that 600 700K uh million I should say in
14:28capital buybacks
14:30scaling out their staking infrastructure
14:33it's called Maven and then outside ETH
14:35investments so things like Mr. Beast,
14:38you know, they they invested in Beast
14:40Industries, uh, data center stuff, uh,
14:43they did something with WLD, so all of
14:46these other investors. And Tom Lee
14:48basically said, "Yeah, that's exactly
14:50it." Is exactly correct. We're going to
14:52maximize shareholder value and do those
14:54three activities.
14:57>> Okay. Uh, I I as an investor, I'm just
15:00interested in like, okay, if I buy BMNR,
15:02do I just have a share of this money
15:04printer that he clearly has? That's like
15:07kind of where my analysis just stops.
15:09>> Do you like do you like Bitmine as an
15:11investment then? I mean, it's pretty
15:12impressive what he's pulled off and but
15:15I still the Bitmine investment is still
15:17very much the ETH investment. I know
15:19you've had a question. Maybe talk about
15:21Bitmine, talk about ETH. You've had a
15:23question. Who is the next buyer of Ether
15:26after Tom Lee? And Tom Lee just answered
15:28the question. It's not going to be me.
15:30>> It's not me. I'm done. I'm done buying
15:31ETH. Yeah,
15:32>> I'm done buying for now. So, somebody
15:34else has to take it from here. It's kind
15:36of like Tom Lee swooped into Ethereum.
15:38He's like, "All right, guys. I got this
15:39for a little while." And now he's kind
15:41of not like he's leaving, but he's just
15:44like, "Okay, you got to take it from
15:45here."
15:46>> Yeah. So, somebody else comes and buys
15:48after me now.
15:49>> Yes. So, who's that going to be? Are you
15:52more bullish on Bitmine than you are
15:54ETH? What's your
15:55>> I'm more bullish on Bitmine than I am
15:57ETH. I do think Bit BMR will outperform
16:00ETH simply simply on the fact that he
16:02has a goddamn money printer. And I and
16:05so like I don't have any better
16:08explanation for it. And he has I think
16:11like I said I think he respects his
16:13equity in contrast to Michael Sailor who
16:15dumps his equity to buy back stretch and
16:18Bitcoin at the earliest sign of an MNAV.
16:21Uh and so I think BMR I think does
16:24appreciate in an MNAV because the MNAM
16:28MNAV game is over for Bitmine. Like
16:30that's that's what he's saying. He's not
16:32buying anymore.
16:32>> Specifically buybacks. What are they
16:34going to do with the cash? Buybacks.
16:35That's good for shareholders. Bit mine
16:37shareholders.
16:38>> So So the BMR MNAV to his holdings is
16:42going up here on forward probably.
16:44>> All right. Coming up next, we got to
16:45talk about um Justin Drake calls it
16:48bunker mode. Crypto might need to go
16:50bunker mode because AI is doing math. It
16:53might break some of the crypto
16:54underlying our blockchain systems. That
16:56was the story of the week. We got to
16:58talk about that and all of the
16:59implications. But before we do, we want
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17:59in the show notes. Not investment
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19:03Banklist Discord and let me know how you
19:05like it. Cheers. Justin Drake this week
19:07tweeted out a tweet that just shook the
19:10entire crypto industry. Uh it's a long
19:13tweet and I will read out some select
19:15excerpts. Today I call on the blockchain
19:17industry to calmly begin planning for
19:20bunker mode in quotes. My personal
19:22recommendation is to set in motion a
19:24controlled mass migration of assets to
19:28fresh addresses, i.e. addresses whose
19:31public keys remain hidden behind a hash.
19:34Holders starting with large and
19:36sophisticated ones should consider
19:37moving the bulk of their funds to
19:38addresses that have never assigned a
19:40transaction. Don't rush. While I believe
19:43that there is caused for action, a
19:45rushed migration would do more harm than
19:47good. Don't panic either. Moving assets
19:51to protected addresses is a simple
19:53preventative step which does not require
19:54new cryptography or new wallets. In my
19:57opinion, it is now reasonable to break
19:59brace for the possibility that ECDSA
20:03breaks before Qday before quantum. What
20:06>> in the worst case months not years and
20:10by break I mean fast private key
20:12cryptography as in you can break a
20:13private key inside of one week on
20:16available hardware i.e. a large GPU
20:19cluster which by the way we have been
20:21investing in those heavily all across
20:23America for two years now.
20:24>> Wait what? Yes. Okay. So that is what he
20:27is saying. That is the action that he is
20:29calling for is that if you are having
20:31your funds in insecure wallets, EDCSA
20:35wallets, you should move your funds to
20:37wallets that don't use that
20:38cryptography.
20:39>> Hold on. Can we just define what that
20:41is? That is at least 25% of all Bitcoin.
20:47>> Okay.
20:48>> Uh which yeah has a um a public key on
20:52chain somewhere. And that is also all
20:56Ethereum addresses
20:58>> that have a transaction
21:01outbound from them where there is a
21:04signed transaction of funds moved from
21:07the address. So not a fresh address
21:08where it's just deposits in
21:10>> but any address that has an EOA address
21:13that has deposits out. That would be
21:16susceptible if ECDSA broke. And then
21:19also all Salana addresses too.
21:22>> So And I'm I'm sure there's many many
21:25many more blockchains beyond that as
21:27well.
21:28>> Okay. And now we knew this was a
21:30possibility with quantum. In fact, we
21:33had Justin Drake on Bankless
21:36>> two years ago and then with recent
21:38updates about kind of the quantum threat
21:40and that's why the whole lean Ethereum
21:42road map exists. And so quantum at some
21:45point maybe 2030 as early as that could
21:49start to break our cryptography. He's
21:52not talking about quantum right now.
21:54He's talking about something else that
21:57could break this cryptography.
21:58>> Just math. Just normal math.
22:02>> How? What is the vector that he's
22:04talking about? What has just emer
22:10once again from Justin Drake? Recent
22:12days have been humbling for human
22:14mathematical intuition. Longheld
22:17unquestioned hypotheses have fallen.
22:19Wow, really big words. Uh, yesterday,
22:22OpenAI dropped a bunch of solved math
22:26problems. And so, we'll get into that in
22:27a second as as soon as I'm done reading
22:29the section. So, back to Justin.
22:31Yesterday's OpenAI drop made it clear
22:33that mathematical super intelligence is
22:35upon us. They said is they say there are
22:38weeks when decades happen. We are about
22:40to live through weeks where centuries of
22:42mathematical progress happen. Could our
22:45magic 64 bye ECDSA signatures be too
22:48good to be true? Was it just security
22:50through obscurity this entire time?
22:53Elliptic elliptic curves feel especially
22:55vulnerable to super intelligence. Okay,
22:56so let's get into the OpenAI news. So on
22:58Tuesday, OpenAI released uh ma to
23:01mathematicians. Hundreds of new findings
23:03that span a wide swath of topics
23:06including algebra, number theory,
23:08theoretical computer science, and
23:10mathematical logical topology. Uh these
23:13this is kind of a continuation down from
23:15the the Millennium Prize problem, the
23:18Navier Stokes Millennium Prize problem.
23:20Well, sounds like OpenAI was like, "Hey,
23:22we just solved that really big problem.
23:24Let's go take care of 377
23:27also medium to medium large problems. Uh
23:31and the rate at which they just solved
23:33all these problems downstream of the
23:35Na'vi 6, it was just it all happened so
23:37incredibly quickly.
23:38>> Yeah. I mean, it turns out AI is really
23:41good at math. It's a verifiable domain
23:43like coding. And it can spend tens of
23:45thousands, even millions across agents
23:48of hours on individual problems and just
23:50solve things very quickly that human
23:52mathematicians haven't had the time,
23:55don't have the skill level to actually
23:57solve. And so I think when Justin is
24:00seeing information like this where 377
24:04unsolved math problems are now solved,
24:06he is kind of just extrapolating into
24:08the future
24:09>> and saying I think that's right. But I
24:13also think that he has more in like more
24:16behind the scenes
24:19sources and insights than just the open
24:22AI disclosures.
24:24probably
24:26probably yes he is an insider in the
24:28world of quantum certainly because he
24:31was connected to the Google quantum team
24:33to me I am also I also think he could
24:36just be kind of vanilla extrapolating
24:38the normal progress of AI which is very
24:40very fast and it's not just the quantum
24:44issue but it's the parallel path of
24:46there are normal classical computing
24:49tricks that you can do to accelerate
24:52breaking cryptography in a brute brute
24:54force way.
24:54>> Mhm.
24:55>> And using AI, there potentially are more
24:58tricks right around the corner. And when
25:01we have an industry, a $3 trillion
25:04industry, he's saying, "Okay, the
25:06largest ships that need to turn, the
25:09coin bases of the world, the fire blocks
25:11of the world, the custodians, the the
25:13bits, the uh the bit goes, all of these
25:17people need to start thinking about this
25:18problem now because it might take them 6
25:21months, a year to turn their ship."
25:24>> Well, it will take them that long. I
25:25mean Ethereum's road map right which
25:28solves a piece of this is what earliest
25:312029 something like that you like 2030
25:34and so what this means is super
25:38intelligence like AI getting really good
25:40at math and what is cryptography it's
25:43it's just math uh could actually break
25:47some of the some of the signature
25:49schemes before that
25:51>> and before quantum it was like almost
25:54like 2 years ago
25:5518 months ago for some folks there was
25:57sort of a wakeup call that quantum is on
25:59the horizon and could fundamentally
26:02break blockchain cryptocryptography.
26:05This is like a second wakeup call from a
26:08different vector of attack that could
26:11result in the same or a similar outcome
26:13which is breaking underlying
26:15cryptography. That's what Justin is
26:17saying here. And I don't know I think he
26:21has reason to say that. I think it's
26:23more than just an extrapolation of just
26:26kind of seeing, oh, like AI is really
26:28good at math.
26:29>> Uh, he is deep in cryptography circles,
26:32you know what I mean? Like in the same
26:33way he was deep with quantum. I think
26:35there's a reason he is tweeting this out
26:37now. And it also seems um backed up and
26:40coordinated like Vitalik put out a tweet
26:41about this. Did you see Matthew Green?
26:44We had Matthew Green is the most
26:46credible evidence to me that what you
26:48are saying of just like this isn't just
26:49like Justin Drake waking up on a
26:52Thursday and deciding to like pull the
26:54alarm bell. Read the tweet. What's he
26:56say?
26:56>> Yeah.
26:57>> Matthew Green is a cryptographer that
26:59we've had on the podcast once before. Uh
27:02very prestigious uh cryptographer and he
27:05just tweets out very casually, I think
27:08we might lose public key cryptography,
27:11which is wild. which is wild.
27:15>> Yes. And he says when people ask, okay,
27:17what do you mean? Well, encryption
27:19specifically, maybe not all of it, but
27:21encryption, we lose encryption. That
27:23means all HTTPS stuff. Okay. Banking,
27:26email, health records, passwords,
27:29signal, WhatsApp, iMessage, all that
27:32stuff could be decrypted. Um, card
27:34payments, ATMs, all that could be
27:37forged. And this is broader obviously
27:40than just blockchains. If we lose
27:43encryption, we lose all of that stuff
27:46across cryptography. And Matthew Green,
27:48he's not even in the He's in the crypto
27:50industry, but cryptography industry,
27:52let's say. He's not cryptocurrency,
27:54>> and he is validating this claim as a
27:56possibility as well.
27:58>> Yeah. Yeah. Nick Carter put out an
28:01interesting tweet where he says, "AGI
28:02and Qday could probably take place in
28:04the same year." So these different paths
28:07of threatening to the security of our
28:09cryptography are are they're separate,
28:11right? Like so like AI is accel
28:13accelerating both of these, but
28:15nonetheless like the underlying
28:18push is AI is accelerating classical
28:21computing tricks and also quantum
28:23tricks. And if you can do one, you can
28:24definitely do the other. And so it's
28:26kind of like god damn it, like there's
28:28no there's no like we're AI is just
28:32coming at us no matter what. and and
28:34things are are going to break. I feel
28:36like that's probably potentially why the
28:38market is dumping today. Like you could
28:41you could argue like the reason why
28:42Bitcoin is down like 3% today and the
28:44industry is down even more is like yeah
28:46like Justin Drake scared everyone uh
28:49because he like woke people up to just
28:50the inevitability that things break
28:52because of AI.
28:53>> Well, Arthur Breitman, he's the founder
28:56creator of uh Tzos Tezos. He he he made
28:59the point that it's notable that open
29:01AAI is not saying anything about
29:03cryptography.
29:04And the reason they're not saying
29:06anything publicly could be tinfoil hat
29:10because they've already made some
29:12breakthroughs or are on the cusp of
29:15making breakthroughs and have to
29:17privately start to inform the rest of
29:20the world that these things are coming.
29:22>> Yeah. the the words that he used the
29:25lack of cryptographic results in
29:26OpenAI's breakthroughs could itself be a
29:29tell. So the 377 math problems
29:31apparently none of them were
29:32cryptography related but like that
29:35that's a matter of national security and
29:37we've already seen the government step
29:39in on the Google paper when Google
29:42released a paper saying hey we actually
29:44have found a way to get to Qday even
29:46faster than we thought and like the
29:48government made them like censor that
29:49the the the information that they had so
29:52we've already seen this happen before
29:54and so people are there's there's a lack
29:56of information and It's giving people's
30:00imaginations room to like fear to have
30:03fear and fear-monger. And then also when
30:05you have Justin Drake saying, "Hey,
30:07don't panic." People are panicking.
30:10>> Well, he's saying don't panic. He's
30:12saying don't panic, right? And you could
30:13do that. You could step into the the
30:15bunker calmly and slowly over time, but
30:17we're going into the bunker, right? Like
30:19what he's
30:20>> what he's actually saying
30:21>> the bunker is scary. Well, what he's
30:23actually saying is potentially all Ether
30:26on any EOA address that has sent ETH
30:29from it could be susceptible for this
30:32type of attack. And so what is the
30:33bunker? Well, that's you actually have
30:35to move your funds into a key into an
30:39address that's never been used before.
30:41That is massive not
30:43>> and then also not use it. You can't you
30:46can't use it while it's in the bunker
30:47otherwise you you explode the bunker.
30:49>> All right. Nobody do anything on chain
30:51until we figure this out for like the
30:52next like it's another honestly it's
30:55another blow against um self custody I
30:58would say and onchain usability cuz like
31:01now you're telling people like oh yeah
31:04the address that you thought was safe
31:06that's actually not safe you have to go
31:07like move funds go tinker with it
31:10>> so I mean he might be right in raising
31:13this alarm it's just like it just kind
31:16of sucks there's no way to like not have
31:21some level of being scared about this.
31:24>> Now, there are some people pushing back
31:26against this take entirely, saying it's
31:29a bad take, saying it's actually FUD.
31:31This is the head of um cryptography at
31:34Coinbase, saying, I wasn't going to
31:36comment, but Justin's take is a really
31:38bad take, so now I feel like I need to.
31:40He said, the fact that AI can prove
31:42theorems have uh been hard does not
31:44indicate in any way that problems
31:46assumed to be hard are not. our
31:48assumption on hard problems are not
31:49based merely on human fallibility but on
31:51a belief that inherent hardness exists.
31:54So he's saying like look in some of the
31:56cryptography there's some things that
31:58are just like really hard and doesn't
32:01matter how intelligent you are they
32:03might be like I guess physically
32:04impossible to break. I know there's a
32:07whole thread here and cryptographers can
32:09kind of get into the merits of this
32:11case, but he's saying like don't go
32:13overboard. We like we don't know, you
32:15know, there might be some thresholds
32:16here that are just like more physical
32:19than um you know, then we, you know, a
32:22super intelligence can cook up a better
32:24algorithm to actually go solve these
32:25things. Uh Donrad also pushed back and
32:28he basically said, "Forget bunker mode.
32:30Okay, if this happens, we're all going
32:32down.
32:34It doesn't matter. There's there's
32:36nuclear fallout everywhere. You might it
32:38doesn't matter if you're in a bunker
32:39>> or I mean more practically, let's say
32:41ECDSA is broken. You've moved your
32:43crypto from one address to another,
32:46>> but the value of like because it's
32:48broken, the value of your asset goes
32:51down 90%. Like, okay.
32:54>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mer had a take that he
32:56just uh rejects Justin's advice. He
32:59says, "You are way more likely to lose
33:00your money by superficially moving it
33:02around than for fundamental cryptography
33:04to break overnight." Uh, and then to to
33:07Don's point, if that happened, the whole
33:09world would break, not just the coins,
33:11and calls it an unnecessarily
33:12performative post. Uh, and for further
33:15down, he also does make the point, and
33:16I've seen this kind of echoed in a few
33:18of my chats, that Justin is a very
33:21competent mathematician and
33:22cryptographer. He is not the has not had
33:26the best track record with timelines.
33:28That is not that has not been his best
33:30skill set in the past. Uh and so I'm
33:33trying to square these two things. Like
33:35if there's one person I know to trust
33:36about math is Justin Drake.
33:37>> It's true.
33:38>> And if there was one domain about
33:41timelines that he was going to get
33:42right, it would also be about math and
33:44cryptography. However, I will admit that
33:46Justin Drake's timeline projections in
33:49the past have not been uh the best.
33:51although he's been more right about
33:53quantum than just about anybody I can
33:55name in cryptography and that threat.
33:57And I think part of the genesis for
33:59Justin's tweet was to sort of accelerate
34:03the lean Ethereum timeline re really
34:05it's just like hey this is the reason we
34:07need to get this right because there's a
34:08question does lean we know lean Ethereum
34:11fixes quantum does the Ethereum road map
34:13actually fix this vector and the answer
34:16to that question is like mostly yes
34:18Vitalic actually confirmed that this
34:20week lean has gone hash only no lises
34:24okay so hash is less susceptible to this
34:27type of AI super intelligence kind of
34:30like breaking uh lattises are more
34:33susceptible and so lean ethereum is
34:35leaning into hash only uh cryptography
34:38rather than lattises so that's a good
34:39thing the thing is there's still we're
34:41still years away from that okay so
34:44there's a gap here we're years away and
34:46then also if Matthew Green is right
34:50encryption could be broken so this means
34:53my understanding not a cryptographer is
34:55that privacy feature just like might not
34:58be possible on Ethereum. So, you could
35:00get the hash and the signatures and the
35:01blockchain would still operate, but like
35:04say goodbye to like private mess, say
35:08goodbye to like uh any kind of like
35:10secret private coin data, FHE, like you
35:13could be saying goodbye to the privacy
35:15part of crypto if this is true, which
35:17again I've not explored what this means
35:19for Zcash.
35:21Um, but anyway, it's a whole category of
35:24like, holy like AI could really
35:27change this fundamentally and we're just
35:29uncertain as to where the future is
35:31pointing to.
35:32>> Yeah, I feel like if this happens, like
35:35if something blows up and breaks in
35:37cryptoland, also the shit's breaking
35:40everywhere else, too. Like the banks,
35:44HTTPS.
35:45>> Yeah.
35:46>> Like cars are going to be hacked. I
35:49don't know, man. Like I I feel like the
35:51world's about to blow up now.
35:52>> Yeah, we're on the precipice of AI
35:54takeover or something. What one reason
35:56this goes back to um uh something I
35:58heard Scott Arensson say? One reason
36:01>> to maybe that I'm not as worried as I
36:04would be otherwise is I think right
36:06before this starts to happen, you know
36:08what you'd see? He he told me like
36:10quantum's not necessarily as near as
36:12people say because if it was, you'd
36:14start to see quantum researchers like
36:16disappearing. Okay. and nothing to like
36:19they would be slurped up by open AI by
36:22governments like holy like help us
36:24solve this.
36:25>> Yeah. Put put into a literal bunker
36:27called the Manhattan Project 2.0 not
36:30sworn to secrecy jailed if they jailed
36:33if they talk and then they would be
36:36compelled to solve the problem first of
36:38the government and then of society. So,
36:40I think that's a that's a key when you
36:42see notable cryptographers maybe in
36:44crypto maybe outside start to kind of
36:47like disappear like I'm working on
36:49something else. All right, maybe that's
36:52when it's about to happen. We haven't
36:54seen that yet.
36:57>> What world are we living in, dude?
36:58>> I don't know. I don't know.
37:00>> A world where some L2s are shutting
37:02down, though. A world with two less L2s,
37:05potentially three. We'll get to that
37:07third in a second. Blast and Abstract
37:09both have announced the shutdown this
37:11week. Uh quote from Blast. The ongoing
37:13cost of maintaining Blast exceeded the
37:15revenue generated by the L2. We do not
37:17see a credible path to making the chain
37:19economically sustainable. At its peak,
37:22Blast had $2.3 billion of TVL. Uh Blast
37:26introduced the whole uh yield and points
37:28phenomenon, rewarding points for for
37:31coming onto the chain. Uh and now it's
37:34basically at zero and it is at zero. So
37:36there is a if you have any funds left on
37:39blast uh October 26th is your date. So
37:42about 20 days less than 20 days uh the
37:46layer 1 bridge contract will still work
37:48after that but the UI the UI withdrawal
37:50will be closed. Abstract quote from
37:52abstract after almost 3 years we are
37:54saddened to share that abstract is
37:56widened down operating chain focus
37:58exclusively on consumer crypto has
38:00ultimately proven to be unsustainable as
38:02a standalone model. This is Pudgy
38:04Penguins L2, right? Their ZK L2.
38:06>> Yes, that's right. That's right. That's
38:08right.
38:08>> And they tried to do this and they just
38:09couldn't get product market fit. So,
38:11they're shutting down as well. And then
38:12I saw this um
38:14>> Starknet. Starket tweeting out from
38:16official Starknet account. We are
38:18actively considering becoming an L1.
38:20This would enable Starknet to become the
38:22first quantum resistant network with
38:242027 as our target. So, Starknet, of
38:28course, one of the original L2s
38:31>> now tweeting out that they may become an
38:33L1 for quantum reasons.
38:38>> Yeah, like it makes sense in in a
38:40technical way like like Starkness tech
38:43has always been super far like ahead of
38:45the curve and everything like that was a
38:47good pun. Ahead of the EDSA curve.
38:49>> Yes, that was great. Pat me on the back.
38:53Um,
38:54>> thank you. Uh, at the same time like,
38:57okay guys, like you guys have been
38:58posturing about leaving Ethereum as long
39:01as I can remember.
39:02>> We're going to do it. We're about to do
39:03it.
39:03>> We're going to do it. We're going to do
39:04it.
39:04>> Just give us one good reason. One good
39:06reason.
39:08>> Granted, Quantum is a very good reason.
39:11So, it's a good reason, but like I don't
39:13know.
39:14>> I think token price might be a good
39:15reason, too. I mean, they're seeing
39:17well, like I think that
39:18>> all the tokens that are like blood on
39:20the streets this week, uh, the quantum
39:22tokens are up, including Starknet. So,
39:25>> there you go. And that the L2 premium,
39:27that L2 trade, all of that is is over.
39:30>> Um, I don't know, it's just just the
39:32smoldering of kind of the like remains
39:35of the L2 road map. I mean,
39:38>> uh, well, remember like this is I put
39:40this out this tweet. Somebody was asked
39:42this on Twitter and I was like, "Okay,
39:44but like Ethereum will literally pay for
39:46your security on your behalf and you
39:49don't have to do that." That still
39:50exists no matter what. The the layer 2
39:52business model is undefeated. And so if
39:54Starknet wants to become a layer 1,
39:56they're going to have to start to issue
39:57Stark and inflate Stark to pay for their
40:00own security. And why do you want to do
40:03that?
40:04>> Well, maybe because the token premium.
40:06Maybe
40:07>> maybe this is an empty threat and maybe
40:09we'll see this again in 12 months time.
40:10We might do it this time. Uh
40:12>> they might do it this time. They might
40:13do it for real. Coming up next, this was
40:15a win for for Bankless Values. Uh
40:17Fininsen with withdrew its unhosted
40:20wallet rules. This is a big deal.
40:22Something scary on the horizon. Also,
40:24David, I want to ask you, you've been
40:26down at uh token 2049. I want to ask you
40:29what the vibes were like, what your
40:31takeaways were. We haven't gotten a
40:32chance to talk about that, so we'll do
40:34that after the break. Before we do, we
40:36want to thank the sponsors that made
40:37this possible. Some exciting news. We
40:39are launching a new podcast to help
40:41people figure out the crypto cycle, how
40:43to navigate it. The best crypto cycle
40:45investor I know, his name is Michael
40:46Nato. He runs the DeFi Report. This is
40:48the guy that sent me a sell alert before
40:50the 1010 price drop happened. His cycle
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40:55I've been following him for years and
40:57this year we started recording weekly
40:59podcast episodes. Each one we get into
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41:03market structure, entry targets, fair
41:05market value of Bitcoin and Ether, and
41:07where we are in the cycle. There's new
41:08episodes that are released every
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41:15most. So, let's do it together. Go
41:17subscribe to this podcast. Search the
41:18DeFi Report wherever you get your
41:20podcast, YouTube, Apple, Spotify, or
41:22find a link in the show notes. There's a
41:24new episode waiting for you. Now, the
41:26Grayscale Zcash ETF passes $1 billion in
41:30aum, which is kind of crazy because the
41:31market cap of Zcash is $21 billion. So,
41:35almost 120th of the total supply of
41:37Zcash. Pretty crazy.
41:38>> That's Tom Lee's 5% in an ETF.
41:41>> That's Tom Lee's 5% in an ETF. Uh in
41:44addition to the Grayscale Zcash passing
41:46$1 billion of AUM, the Winklvi also
41:49filed for their Zcash ETF. Ticker Wink
41:54ticker wink cute. That's cute. I think
41:58that's cute.
41:58>> I was going to I was going to buy it
42:00because like the Winklevi, they were
42:02early to Zcash. believe in Zcash when
42:04when like no one really paid attention
42:06to it and then I was like I'm not going
42:07to buy a wink
42:08>> because I'll just buy I'll just buy spot
42:11Zcash and put it in the shielding pool.
42:13I'm not going to buy a wink.
42:14>> I can't do for David
42:16>> no wink for me.
42:17>> I mean good robust demand. Um Zcash has
42:21had an incredible year to 18 months or
42:24so and uh just a pullback right now
42:26David but I know you you remain bullish.
42:28>> Terrible week for Zcash. I am tewing
42:31into Zcash as we speak right now.
42:33>> Okay, not Wink, but Zcash. Um, we got to
42:36thank a hero, a crypto hero who has
42:39signed off for her final time. This is
42:41Commissioner Hester Purse. Has she
42:45resigned or was this just the end of her
42:47tenure? What's happening?
42:49>> This was it. This was the end of her
42:50tenure. That's right. Uh, and she signed
42:52like a formal letter uh to the White
42:54House. Is that to Donald Trump? I think
42:56just like thanking him. Yep, that's
42:57right. uh thanking him for her her term
43:00there. And then she sent out another
43:02tweet saying, "Hey, thanks for everyone,
43:04including my haters.
43:07>> Did you see that?"
43:08>> No, I didn't. Thanks for the many kind
43:11words over the past week and for the
43:12engagement over my time at the SEC.
43:15Thanks to my many critics, too. Vigorous
43:18critics of government officials are part
43:20of way what makes this country great. No
43:22more tweets from this account. Be
43:25careful out there. Investor.gov, gov,
43:27which is the investor protections
43:28website.
43:29>> Thank you, Hester.
43:30>> Yeah. Absolute class act.
43:32>> Yep. Just a legend.
43:34>> The greatest public servant of all time.
43:37>> I think uh Armstrong, Brian Armstrong
43:39summed it up well. She said he said,
43:40"What a run. You were always principled,
43:42humble, clear, and kind. We were all
43:45better off because of your work." I
43:46think that is true. She outlasted Gary
43:49Gensler. Some wins. I mean she sort of
43:52had the last the last laugh uh with
43:56respect to her proposal. Do you remember
43:57she proposed the token safe harble
44:00harbor proposal back in 2020
44:03>> ahead of her time but that is basically
44:06the innovation exemption that happened
44:09in 2026 under Paul Atkins. So her policy
44:14and her plan, I mean, she had the
44:16patience and fortitude to wait it out
44:18and actually see it through to
44:20implementation.
44:21>> Um, other than that, I mean, just what a
44:24first principles regulator. Like we need
44:26more of those types of people in in
44:28government. So,
44:30>> and she also like never cut us slack if
44:33we didn't deserve it. Like she wasn't
44:35like the crypto industry is not like
44:37bending over to Hester because she gave
44:39us everything she wanted. what we
44:40wanted. Like she gave us like
44:42responsible,
44:44>> principled regulation.
44:46>> It was fair.
44:46>> It was fair. It was super fair. And in
44:48contrast to everything that came before
44:50her, that was like all we could ask for.
44:52>> Yep. I think she'll always be crypto
44:54mom. I think that's what it comes down
44:55to.
44:55>> She'll always be a crypto mom. That's
44:56right. That's right.
44:57>> Another win in the regulatory front was
45:00actually this uh this is from
45:02finent.gov, which usually has bad news
45:05for crypto. All right. This this press
45:07release was good news. It says this.
45:09Finen announces withdrawals of proposed
45:12digital asset related rules. And people
45:15forget, we've talked about it a number
45:17of times, but these rules were left, I
45:21guess, unimplemented, but still on the
45:24official books at Fininsson. One was a
45:27reporting rule, and the other was a uh
45:31let's see, a mixer rule. Okay. And so
45:35these rules were first proposed in 2020.
45:39And this is what they would have
45:40required. So, anytime you withdraw
45:44anything above $3,000 from a crypto
45:47exchange to your non-custodial wallet,
45:50um the exchange has to verify the
45:53identity of the wallet before sending.
45:56So full AML KYC, if it's a $10,000
46:01um move, then the exchange has to file a
46:04report to the government with your name,
46:05your wallet, your address, the amount.
46:08So the whole net effect is all onchain
46:11wallets become AML KYC linked to a
46:15government database. They basically know
46:17where all of the addresses are mapped
46:20to. And again, this is like Zcash
46:22shielded. Like how do you how do you
46:24even deal with that? I guess the
46:26government knows uh what addresses are
46:29shielded. And there was also a mixer
46:31rule that was in place that if any asset
46:35crypto asset touched a mix mixer of any
46:38sort for anonymization like a tornado
46:40cash, it would be radioactive. So no
46:43exchange could touch it, no bank could
46:45touch it. It would just be blacklisted
46:47assets. So that was on the books just
46:51waiting to be implemented by some future
46:53administration. Okay. And then Fininsen
46:57just this week withdrew both of those
46:59rules. So said we're no longer pursuing
47:01those rules, which is a big win because
47:04you we always talked about Fininsen and
47:06Treasury being kind of the final boss,
47:08the surveillance state being the final
47:09boss for crypto. Uh this is the final
47:12boss kind of like retreating a little
47:14bit into the background. So big win.
47:18One worry that I have is that with AI
47:24you can just find out whose wallet that
47:27is anyways.
47:29>> Yeah.
47:30>> So what if they like just gave up on
47:32this because like oh with with uh chain
47:34analysis and like we are they they
47:38already have all that information
47:41>> and like they just got it for free
47:43because like what did Justin Drake say
47:46up above? He says about the cracking the
47:49cryptography. He was like, "What if we
47:50just had private privacy through
47:52obuscation
47:54>> and this is like a big topic of uh
47:57conversation at token 2049 and AI and
47:59like the the whole privacy narrative
48:01that's been happening in crypto is like
48:02okay there's actually plenty of doxing
48:06data out there but it didn't really
48:08matter before AI because there was so
48:11much data that the human couldn't do
48:14anything with it. Now we have AI. Now we
48:16have all the data that we need.
48:19>> Yeah, there's a big problem. I think AI
48:21shakes everything up. Uh I mean, well,
48:23we were just talking about how AI could
48:25shake up encryption in general and then
48:28is privacy even possible in that world
48:31world if it starts kind of, you know,
48:33taking down our cryptography math? But I
48:36I remember um Zuko came on the podcast
48:38and sort of made this point and he he
48:40made it more,
48:42>> I guess, ardently. He he said that there
48:45you can't have privacy unless you
48:47actually do this. You actually uh
48:50convert any value you want to store into
48:53Zcash without the intention to unconvert
48:55it ever. Is that my my question was like
48:57oh can you use Zcash as a mixer? You
49:00know move some funds in there
49:02>> go in and out
49:03>> and then take it out in a month and
49:04you'll be fine. He's like no AI is going
49:06to get so good that it can detect any of
49:08these patterns any of these signals.
49:09know if you even think it in your brain,
49:12it will know you want to do it before
49:14you actually do it. And so the only way
49:16is
49:16>> having no intent to ever bring it out.
49:19Now, someone could say, "Well, that's
49:20just Zuko pumping his Zcash bags." But I
49:22think there's also an element of truth
49:24there, which is like
49:26>> if you have a a fully intelligent AI, it
49:30it's so good at pattern recognition,
49:32like what becomes of privacy?
49:35>> Totally. Actually, I met Zuko this week
49:37in real life.
49:39Yeah.
49:39>> Yeah.
49:39>> He's a good guy. He's He's taller in
49:41real life as I recall.
49:42>> He's tall. He He's a tall guy. He's got
49:43to be like 61, 6'2.
49:46>> Friendly guy, though. Just as friendly
49:47as
49:48>> Super friendly. Super quirky.
49:50>> Yeah. Super quirky.
49:52>> And that's saying a lot from a crypto
49:54conference, right?
49:55>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was cool. Yeah. It
49:57was at a It was at a near dinner with
49:59The other person I met was Naval as
50:01well. Uh he he listens to the podcast.
50:04>> You met Naval?
50:05>> Yeah. Nal. Yeah. There was a a near
50:08Ravon.
50:09>> Yeah, that's right.
50:10>> Actual living legend Naval. Wow, that's
50:13he was at token 249. Yeah, he was at
50:15this dinner with Zuko. Uh, and yeah,
50:19Mert was there. Uh, yeah, I think those
50:21were the big names.
50:22>> Okay. It was pretty cool.
50:24>> Tell me more about token 2049 as we
50:26close. So, this is Was this the first
50:28time you've actually gone? Uh, what were
50:30the
50:31>> This is my first token 2049. And the
50:33reason for that is just because token
50:352949 is just clear across the other end
50:38of the world. Ryan, it is uh 12 in the
50:41afternoon for Ryan. It is 12 in the
50:42morning for me.
50:43>> Yeah. Thanks.
50:45>> Clear clear across the world. Uh which
50:46is why I've never really gone. But also
50:48like there's kind of no big crypto
50:51conference left. Like this is kind of
50:53like the big one.
50:54>> It's coming to New York next year.
50:56>> It's coming to New York. It's coming to
50:57New York in June. So I will I will
50:59gladly take the L to token 249 in New
51:03York.
51:04>> Well, they can come to New York now cuz
51:05it's le crypto is legal now in the US
51:08basically.
51:08>> Also, uh Dubai is really has recently
51:11gotten bombed. Uh and so they are trying
51:13to diversify from just Singapore and
51:16Dubai. So they're doing like you know
51:18ALS also throwing in New York there as
51:20well. So I'm pretty excited. So that but
51:22that being said, this is my first token.
51:23So I don't really have any frame of
51:25reference other than other crypto
51:26events. Uh but I will say crypto very
51:30much alive.
51:31>> Yeah,
51:31>> this event is huge, Ryan. Five floors
51:35and there are people everywhere and
51:38there are people like evenly distributed
51:40all across the conference. It was
51:42massive. There had to have been
51:45maybe I want to say almost 20,000 people
51:49here.
51:49>> Wow.
51:51>> May maybe at least 8 to 12,000 at the
51:54actual conference itself. uh just
51:56massive conference and I've been to so
51:58many crypto conferences. This one felt
52:00like a true amalgamation of all of them
52:03just like a perfect it's it makes sense
52:06as to how token got so big. It's like
52:08literally taking a bit the good stuff
52:10from all good conferences and it's just
52:12like a bit of everything. Uh the privacy
52:15tailwind I think is a huge topic of
52:17conversation. Privacy is a very big
52:19deal. I kind of think that that is going
52:21to be a reoccurring theme into in
52:23throughout next year as we've already
52:24talked about it on the podcast today.
52:26So, privacy is a huge topic of
52:28conversation. Um, uh, Hib gave a very
52:31very good talk. Remember when we had on
52:34the podcast and he was like, uh, humans
52:36aren't going to use crypto. AI is going
52:37to use crypto.
52:38>> Yeah.
52:38>> Uh, because AI can't use credit cards.
52:41He gave a talk. He was like, I was
52:42totally wrong about that. Uh, X42 is is
52:46not being used. And turns out agents can
52:48totally use credit cards.
52:50>> Uh that that was pretty but then then it
52:52came into a conversation like AI is
52:54totally going to dox you and you're
52:56actually going to use AI to prevent
52:58yourself from getting doxed. And so I
53:00think I think there's just a lot of
53:01tension and it's AI versus AI coming in
53:04the future. It was a very big topic of
53:05conversation at the uh at this
53:07conference. And my other kind of big
53:09takeaway is like I think Ilia from Near
53:11is kind of a main character right now.
53:13>> Um Near Ne near cracked the top 20. So
53:15maybe it's just like token price. Uh but
53:17like he's building the AI blockchain and
53:19AI is a huge topic of conversation.
53:20>> It's notable. I mean he's been pretty
53:22correct on both privacy and intents
53:24building a product and cracking the top
53:2620. Uh
53:28>> they I mean your hasn't been in the top
53:2920 since like 2021 or something like
53:31that. So it's a comeback story too.
53:33>> Yeah. Yeah. Uh, and then the other big
53:36takeaway was that like the conference
53:38was so big that somebody else's
53:41experience at the conference could have
53:43been totally different from mine. It's
53:45in Singapore, which is like the world's
53:47greatest international waters port. Like
53:50that's what Singapore is. It's like it's
53:51a country, but it's like international
53:52waters as a country. So many different
53:55languages. Uh, this is the second time
53:57I've been in Asia. And so like it's
54:00crypto as an industry is matured enough
54:02to the point where like if you're into a
54:04specific corner of crypto, you could
54:06like never really butt up with somebody
54:08who's like in my corner of crypto. And
54:11so there's like an emphasis on just like
54:12this kind of the size and dispersion.
54:15Dispersion is the word that crypto has
54:17really found recently. That's great. But
54:19also like the energy is good. Energy is
54:22good. Like people are bullish.
54:23>> So are you coming back bullish? I mean
54:25some of the criticism of tokens past has
54:28been it's very sort of memecoin trader
54:30energy kind of speculative.
54:33Did you feel that flavor or did it feel
54:36like grounded and I don't know
54:38>> more so than the Ethereum conferences
54:42because that makes sense more so than um
54:45permissionless because that's not really
54:47how when we were doing permissionless
54:48that's not really how we let it but um
54:52less than what you would expect to see
54:55uh from just like the crypto Twitter
54:57side of the world. Like crypto Twitter
54:58is very very memecoin uh focused. Uh, me
55:01and Coin had like one or two um
55:04mainstage slots out of like 30, so I
55:06wouldn't say it was overly focused on
55:07that.
55:08>> This looks very institutional. I mean,
55:10although you did have Don Don Trump Jr.,
55:11I bet he was talking some mean coins.
55:13>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, it was just like there
55:16was standing room only for Don. Did you
55:18see my tweet about that?
55:19>> I did. Yeah. Yeah.
55:20>> I was kind of like throwing some shade.
55:21Uh, no, I would say it was it was very
55:23very like done up and it was just kind
55:25of like a who's who. Like Ralph Paul was
55:27there. Um, uh, Zoron Pner. Posner that
55:32macro commentator.
55:33>> Oh, wow. He was there. Zoron was there.
55:35>> He was there. Yeah. Is that is that his
55:36name? Yeah, he was being interviewed by
55:38Ral Paul. That was pretty cool.
55:40>> Um, yeah. So, and again, like Naval was
55:42there. Bology was there. BI is having
55:44the Zcash summit uh from the network
55:46state um summit that's tomorrow. So, I'm
55:48going to that. Um, yeah, just like it
55:51was a huge huge event with like
55:53basically everyone there other than you.
55:55>> That's fine. I'm totally fine with that.
55:58Thanks for going for both of us. Uh
56:00well, I guess let's end it there. Crypto
56:02is very much alive and well, but we'll
56:03see if we get
56:05>> an October for the rest of the month.
56:07>> Yeah, we got two more weeks for October.
56:09>> Bank Nation, it's been another week.
56:11We'll see you in a week. You know the
56:12deal. Crypto is risky. You can lose what
56:14you put in, but this is the frontier.
56:16It's not for everyone, but we're glad
56:17you're with us on the bankless journey.
56:19Thanks a lot.

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