YT YouTube2Text

YouTube2Text → Transcripts → Afrophobia: South Africa's Migrant Crisis Explained | Exclusive Interview with Jacinta Ngobese-Zuma

Afrophobia: South Africa's Migrant Crisis Explained | Exclusive Interview with Jacinta Ngobese-Zuma — Transcript

by Nigeria Info FM · 20,766 words · 3,200 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

Open in transcriber Summarize with AI Download SRT/VTT

Full transcript

0:01Justinta, welcome to Border Lines on
0:03Nigeria Info. It's it's a pleasure to be
0:06talking to you finally. It's taken us
0:08it's taken us a little while to get
0:10here, but we're here
0:11>> and we're in sunny Durban, which is your
0:14hometown.
0:15>> Yeah.
0:16>> Let's get to know who Justinta is
0:19because as you know, I'm from Nigeria.
0:22I'm a Nigerian broadcaster, but
0:25Nigerians don't really know you. What
0:26they know is what they've seen on social
0:28media. So I think we should start from
0:30there. Just from a little girl to just
0:34today
0:37>> um what can I say? I'm a young lady grew
0:40up in um Durban. I was born in Cen is
0:46which is like a homestead.
0:48>> Okay.
0:48>> Um it's more of a rural area and we left
0:52there when we were young.
0:55Um
0:56and then we moved to Guamashu which is
0:59more of a location where um during the
1:02group areas act it was just a place
1:04dedicated to black people to live there
1:07and that's where I lived until I was a
1:11bit older moved to Johannesburg
1:14stay there a bit and then came back here
1:17um to do tertiary education and
1:20ultimately this is where I ended up um
1:24cuz my home. I think I feel more in
1:26touch with Durban. I mean, I've always
1:28loved um sports. I've been involved in
1:34lots of um lots of things, you know,
1:37community activities. I've always been
1:39for the uh community. I've been in
1:41advocates for GBV
1:44um and other community areas. I started
1:48doing radio when I was 18 years old in
1:51tertiary. And I was on radio until last
1:55year which saw me get fired because of
1:58my march and march activities. And yeah,
2:02I've always been an active young person,
2:04always been vocal about my beliefs. I've
2:07grew up in a very church environment.
2:10>> At home, we're Catholic. So that's where
2:13I got the name Chinta from. Um cuz it's
2:16a Roman Catholic name. And
2:18>> justintent is a Roman Catholic name.
2:20Interesting. At home, we all have
2:22Catholic names. Every single one of us.
2:24>> Right. So, both your parents were
2:25Catholic.
2:26>> No, just just my I grew up with my my
2:28just So, my dad ran away uh with my my
2:31dad's family
2:33>> uh after the violence broke out in where
2:36I was born. That's when my family moved
2:38to Guam. So,
2:39>> what violence was that? Was that one of
2:41the
2:41>> violence? So my my grandpa my dad's uh
2:45father was an active ANC member who was
2:48part of the struggle and he played a
2:50very significant role in the fight
2:52against the Bate. So when that broke out
2:55I ran with my mom who took us to to this
2:59side of the world for safety and that's
3:01how we landed up in Guamu
3:03>> and he didn't come after you.
3:05>> My dad.
3:05>> Yeah.
3:06>> Well afterwards now. I mean, I have a
3:08relationship with him now, but back then
3:09it was, you know, who's this man? He ran
3:14away.
3:15>> Uh, but now I think we're good. But I've
3:17always had a relationship with my my
3:19grandfather because he he remained
3:21behind even when the family ran that
3:24side. So, he was closer to me
3:26>> than my father. So, yeah.
3:28>> So, you're pretty you are you from quite
3:31a close family than any siblings?
3:33>> Uh, yes. I have one sibling. Boy or
3:35girl? Brother? Yeah, I have a brother.
3:37But because my family grew up so
3:39close-knit, my grand my granny and my
3:42grandpa, we grew up like in a very big
3:44home
3:45>> where um my my cousins were like my
3:49brothers and sisters. So, I've got more
3:51than one brother and sister. Like my
3:53cousins are my brothers and sisters as
3:55well. And that's how we grew up really.
3:57Yeah,
3:58>> indeed. Well, it's nice to get to know
4:00you. So you went to university here and
4:02then you worked in radio and you said
4:05you you left radio because
4:07>> Yeah. So um when this whole March and
4:09March thing started um there was a bit
4:13of tension with some politicians um
4:16feeling
4:18uh like they were being disturbed in
4:22their space
4:24>> and yeah that's how I I got fired which
4:27I was I was fine with.
4:28>> When was this last year you said?
4:30>> Yeah. So the march and march has started
4:32since last year.
4:33>> How did it come together?
4:35>> Well, what can I say? March and March
4:37started from my activism. Like I said,
4:40I've been on radio for a long time. I
4:42used to get a lot of complaints from
4:43people, various issues that had to do
4:45with people uh committing crimes,
4:48running away, being identified, police
4:50getting involved. But the most um
4:55prolific moment for me I can say was
4:57when like I used to have like very weird
4:59dreams about children going missing. So
5:01there was a lot of children going
5:03missing last year and uh most of them
5:06were never ever found while some others
5:09were caught with people trying to cross
5:11the border and um that's how really this
5:14thing started like affecting me and um
5:19you know I used to to wake up with these
5:21vivid dreams of children being in
5:23containers and being shipped out of the
5:25country and you know there was a voice
5:28that said to me you know what if you
5:30don't do anything about it's it's going
5:32to be your child that's next. And that's
5:34how much and much started. But more than
5:36anything, the push factor also came when
5:39last year about 25 children died um
5:43uh from spas shop food that they had
5:46consumed.
5:47>> Spaza shops are the local shops that
5:51Yes. Yes. And you know we waited for our
5:53government to do something about it and
5:56>> children died from the food. 25 of them
5:59from the food they consumed.
6:01>> Yes.
6:01>> In which area? Which area was
6:03>> different areas? It was Johannesburg
6:04though mostly but it was a series of
6:06>> so the same thing. So 25 children died
6:08from different areas
6:11eating the same thing or
6:13>> different types of food from the tuck
6:15shops.
6:17So when we waited for the president to
6:19give us like um you know a prolific
6:22presidential response to to the crisis
6:26um all he said is that the SP shops must
6:28be registered which caused a lot of
6:30anger of course amongst the people. This
6:32was last year of course last year just
6:34before the march started. I think it was
6:36somewhere in January when
6:39um we said you know what it's this is it
6:42you know this man is not taking this
6:43issue seriously and we had our first
6:46march and it was in March that's why we
6:48called it March in March at the time
6:52and that's when we took to the streets
6:53and we marched and had our first march
6:55and afterwards everyone was like okay
6:57what's next and then we made it a
7:00continuation and called it march and
7:02march um until we win because we do feel
7:05like We're in a fight for survival
7:08um as South Africans in our own country.
7:12>> Did the Ministry of Health response at
7:13all?
7:14>> Did they respond?
7:15>> No, it was
7:16>> there was no
7:17>> Like I said, there's never been any
7:19justice. The only thing the president
7:21said was that these father shops must be
7:24registered. Um
7:25>> and the police didn't respond either and
7:28the shops remained open.
7:30>> They remained open.
7:30>> Were they able to identify the
7:32particular shops? There was some no they
7:34they did discover what the the substance
7:36is that was found in all of these uh
7:38foods and it was some foreign substance
7:41um that was from outside of South Africa
7:44that they say was found in all of these
7:46um foods.
7:47>> So these were imported foods.
7:49>> Yeah.
7:49>> Right.
7:50>> And the spa shops are not run by South
7:52Africans. They run by Somalians and
7:54Ethiopians.
7:56>> Do you think it would have mattered
7:57because they imported foods? Do you
8:00think if it was run by South Africans
8:02that would make a difference?
8:04>> The difference is in that South African
8:06shops, they buy proper products that are
8:09regulated, that are SAB approved, that
8:12go through the right standards. The
8:14issue with Somalians and Ethiopian shops
8:16is that they bring in counterfeit goods
8:19from the border, from these ships that
8:23come in with all these products. And
8:25some of them they buy expired goods from
8:28some of these big wholesalers and they
8:31sell them. If you can check the records
8:33you'll see most of the goods that they
8:35sell are expired goods and our
8:37government hasn't been responding
8:39effectively to to our concerns as the
8:41citizens.
8:42>> So these containers come in and it goes
8:45to customs and they get cleared by
8:47customs. Did any complaints go to
8:50customs?
8:50>> So unfortunately that's not how it works
8:52in South Africa,
8:53>> right? How does it work? South Africa
8:54there's they come in through the ports
8:57and in the ports there's one scanner
8:59machine that works. So unfortunately the
9:01scanner machine cannot scan every single
9:03thing that comes in. So sometimes they
9:06scan certain items. They find things
9:08that are not supposed to be here. But
9:10unfortunately most of the time a lot of
9:12products come inland. So from the
9:15statistics, the last I I saw it was um
9:18South Africa loses about 250 million
9:22rand a day from the illicit goods coming
9:24through from the from the harbors. So
9:28it's really something that we've also
9:29raised as a concern because we don't
9:31understand how that can be normalized
9:34>> because it means anything can come in
9:36from our harbors and from our borders
9:38and it's going to go on as if it's
9:40normal.
9:42So the people that run these borders,
9:45they are South Africans, I'm presuming.
9:48And
9:49>> have they any of them been arrested?
9:52>> No, not
9:52>> because it seems incredible that these
9:54shipments will come in.
9:57There has to be collaboration with
10:01officials. I think that's why we're
10:02we're we're up in arms the way that we
10:04are because um I personally went to meet
10:09with the border management of the
10:10country and the picture that they paint
10:13is quite glaring.
10:14>> What did they say?
10:15>> Of of of a of a serious crisis. Border
10:18management of South Africa is only 25%
10:21operational which means 75% of this
10:24country is wide open.
10:27Open open for exploitation for entry
10:29from anyone.
10:31And it's been going on for years and the
10:34citizens have been letting it happen
10:36because we were not aware of how serious
10:38the crisis is until we started seeing
10:40really how serious the crisis is. Um so
10:45right now border management maybe you've
10:47seen that there were well we had
10:49elections in 2024.
10:50>> Mhm.
10:51>> And then the DA government came into
10:53power um in collaboration with the NC.
10:57So we've got a GNU government now for
10:58the first time. So this entire time the
11:01government has been run by the NC
11:02government and the GNU now is blaming
11:07that on the previous system which is run
11:10by the ANC
11:12and that is where we find ourselves as
11:14citizens where we're finding ourselves
11:16stuck with this problem because it was
11:19apparently created by the previous
11:20administration
11:22and right now I don't think the current
11:26one who just came in has an idea of how
11:28to solve the
11:29The current one being
11:31>> the the DA um minister.
11:33>> Okay. The DA minister home affairs. Yes.
11:36>> I think that's Minister Silva.
11:37>> You're on Shriber.
11:38>> Shriber. Yes, brother. He doesn't have a
11:40clue. You say?
11:41>> Well, from what they say, they say
11:43they're fixing the problem. But um they
11:45say they don't have enough money to to
11:46solve the problem. I mean the most basic
11:49of things like if you're talking about a
11:52crisis of of your borders surely then
11:54you should have them locked in terms of
11:57safety security have more people at the
11:59borders um have um tighter security
12:03measures but there's none of that
12:05happening at the moment.
12:07So if we go back to the genesis of what
12:10you're telling me is that this March and
12:13March started as a direct response to
12:20tragic circumstances that involved
12:22children. You also mentioned about
12:25children being taken across the border.
12:28>> Can you go into that a little bit?
12:29>> We've had a we've had a
12:32I mean if you can get the statistics
12:33I'll try and get them for you. there
12:35thousands of children have been going
12:37missing in this country never to be
12:39found again you know um and we found
12:42that um at one point there was a
12:45discovery of there being a a trafficking
12:48ring uh being run from here in the
12:50country and the response from the
12:54government is not a response from a
12:56government that cares about the people
12:58you know
12:59>> and I think that's why
13:01we find ourselves where we are you
13:05where
13:07we're helpless, if I can put it that
13:10way. We're just totally and completely
13:12helpless and the only people we can rely
13:15on is ourselves as the citizens.
13:18>> From everything you've said to me,
13:19you've pointed directly at government's
13:22failure over and over and over again.
13:26Yet, it's not the government that you're
13:28marching against. Why is that?
13:31Um, you see, I think that's where a lot
13:33of media people get it wrong. Because
13:35when you say you we're not marching
13:37against government, I wouldn't
13:39understand what that means because with
13:41every single march, every single one
13:43that we've had, we've submitted
13:45memorandums to government. We've handed
13:47over, I think, over 20 memorandums.
13:50Every single march is to government. Cuz
13:53remember, when you're going to march in
13:55South Africa, you apply for a march.
13:57They're given a route with the with the
13:59police. You go to a particular place to
14:02hand over a memorandum and that's why
14:04the police are present. Which is why a
14:06lot of people have this idea that we
14:08must be arrested and they can't arrest
14:10us because marching is our
14:12constitutional right and they know that
14:14we're marching to the government. It's
14:16just unfortunate that when they paint a
14:18picture of what's going on in South
14:20Africa, they don't tell the truth.
14:22There's no South African who can march
14:24the streets and start running around
14:27looking for people. That's not how it
14:29works. When we march, we have a route.
14:31The police are aware. They come in
14:34numbers. Like if you were to come to our
14:36marches, there's dozens of police, you
14:40know, and and they know, they're aware
14:42of where we're going. When we get there,
14:44we hand over memorandum. They sign the
14:46memorandum and they and they have to
14:47respond to the memorandum. Plenty of
14:49times the government doesn't respond to
14:51the memorandum and that's why we
14:53continue to march.
14:55>> But the rhetorics that come out, it's
14:57not government you must do. It's
15:01migrants must go whether documented or
15:04undocumented. How then do you marry the
15:06two? Because that's clearly what
15:09everybody hears on social media. That's
15:12what we see at the marches.
15:15>> Yeah. I think I think that's where
15:16people need to to to understand what is
15:19happening in South Africa. There's two
15:22things that are happening. There's
15:23marches and there's operations, right?
15:26Marches are just strictly marches.
15:28There's nothing else. Nothing happens
15:30with the march. And if something happens
15:32at a march, the police will always
15:33arrest someone cuz they're there.
15:35>> But they haven't been arresting. I mean,
15:36there's been violence that have
15:39happened. There's been several violence
15:41that have happened. There's been at
15:43least I think it's eight people who have
15:45been killed
15:46>> as a result of this rhetorics from the
15:49marches. Some on social media granted,
15:51I'm not saying definitely from you, but
15:54as a result of supporters of March and
15:56March.
15:57>> No, let me explain something to you so
15:59that you can understand.
16:01>> March and March is not the only
16:02organization that's fighting illegal
16:05immigration in the country. And March
16:08and March is not the only people that
16:10have an issue with illegal immigration
16:12in the country. Um you know when we
16:15started March and March we went to the
16:17government we told them that there's a
16:20crisis that's going to happen in this
16:22country. I'm talking what we said as
16:23March and March
16:25>> South Africans last year.
16:26>> Yes South Africans are fed up
16:28>> and you are ignoring this concern. We're
16:32formalizing the structure so that we can
16:34deal with the government. That's why
16:36March and March exists.
16:38>> But let me give you an example of Muscle
16:40Bay, for example. Muscle Bay, we've
16:42never been to Muscle Bay. There's not a
16:45single member of March and March, but
16:47communities there, they decided to fight
16:49with each other, with foreigners over
16:51issues that they've already had boiling
16:53under, tensions that have already
16:55existed. Let me tell you why that
16:57happens. You see, down here in Durban,
17:00there's a place called Point Road, and
17:02you can ask anyone about it. Those have
17:05become no go areas for South Africans.
17:07We don't go to those places.
17:08>> What happens in point?
17:09>> The it's been taken over.
17:12>> By whom?
17:12>> By Nigerians and other foreigners who
17:16have made South Africans not to be able
17:18to come into those areas.
17:19>> Why not?
17:20>> Because they've taken over. They've
17:22taken over buildings. They've taken over
17:23shops. They've taken over the entire
17:25neighborhood.
17:26>> What? They bought it. When you say take
17:28over, did they buy it or
17:30>> Some of the buildings are hijacked. It's
17:32like in Hilra in Johannesburg. It's like
17:34in Sunnyside in Ptoria. It's like
17:37there's so many all of these places have
17:39been mushering up all throughout the
17:40country. And
17:42>> and who owns those buildings originally?
17:44>> Most of them have been hijacked.
17:46>> No, but who owns them? Who do they
17:47belong to?
17:47>> What happened is one some of those
17:49buildings are municipalities and of
17:51course they can only do this with
17:53>> their government building local
17:54government buildings. So this can only
17:56be done with the help of a South African
17:59>> at a municipal office right who has
18:02details of what buildings are there
18:04which buildings are vacant etc. They
18:06sell this information, right? People
18:09come into the building, it's empty, they
18:11start taking over a building. Can be a
18:14house, they do the same thing. They come
18:16into a house, the owner is living
18:17overseas. Although I've got plenty of
18:20cases of people with that problem.
18:22>> The owners are living overseas. And why
18:24are they not doing anything about
18:26someone?
18:26>> They don't know. So remember, South
18:28African law doesn't allow you to just
18:30evict someone. This is how they they use
18:33the law to their to their to their
18:36favor. So once I come into your house,
18:39>> right,
18:40>> the law protects me if I don't have
18:43anywhere else to go.
18:46>> So there's no legal redress. There's no
18:48way to go to court, even if it's going
18:51to take a while.
18:51>> You can go to court, but I have to
18:54provide you sometimes with a place to
18:57stay
18:58before I can evict you from the house.
19:01>> Right. So you have to replace a
19:03squatter. So what you're saying is
19:05they're squatting in these properties
19:08and even if the owner comes back, some
19:10of the owners you said are abroad. So
19:12even when the owner comes back and says,
19:14"I want my property back."
19:16>> If they go to court, if they win, they
19:19then have to provide
19:21>> an alternative.
19:23>> Is that the law?
19:24>> Yes.
19:25>> Otherwise, they can't be evicted.
19:27>> Unless there's an alternative.
19:29>> Mhm.
19:30So I'm just trying to paint a picture
19:32for you how difficult it is
19:35>> for South Africans to to go through
19:37these processes. So it's only now
19:39>> so
19:40>> what are they doing with those buildings
19:42because
19:42>> in the building I I'll sh I'll share
19:44with you some videos so you can see of
19:46what what they've done to some
19:47buildings.
19:48>> So it's people who are like an organized
19:50syndicates. It's not just ordinary you
19:52who comes from Nigeria who comes and
19:54says hey I'm going to take over
19:55building. You wouldn't know that. So
19:57it's people who've got this information
19:59who are making millions out of it. Once
20:01they get into the building they start
20:02rigging electricity. So they find ways
20:05of getting electricity into the building
20:07without paying. Uh they do the same with
20:10municipal water and then inside the
20:12building there's about in a two room
20:15house they live four people at a time
20:17and all these people are paying rent to
20:19one person. Sometimes they'll they'll
20:21build other buildings inside a building
20:24so that there's more space for people to
20:26rent and that's how they maximize
20:29profits. So one of the celebrities who
20:32passed away this year was DJ Wars.
20:34>> Yes.
20:34>> And his job was to reclaim hijacked
20:37buildings and he had been um dealing
20:40with them and
20:41>> who gave him the job?
20:42>> So he's a security company. Yeah. So, as
20:44a security company, you've got um a
20:47right to protect people who ask for that
20:50protection.
20:51>> So, he was basically reclaiming some of
20:53these buildings for the owners and
20:55that's why they killed him because it's
20:57a lucrative business. People make
20:59millions.
21:00>> Has that been proven? Cuz I do remember.
21:02>> I I do remember the case.
21:04>> Proven that that that that's the reason
21:06why because I mean he was getting
21:07threats to that effect. Anyways,
21:10>> was he making a headway? Was he able?
21:12>> No. this building he had um reclaimed
21:16from for the owner and he was uh
21:19managing it. So I believe that that's
21:22right now that's where the case is
21:23headed. Um
21:25>> where which area was that building in?
21:26>> It's in Johannesburg.
21:27>> Is in Joberg. Okay. Is it in one of
21:29those areas that you say is occupied by
21:32Nigerians or
21:34>> Well, like I said,
21:36>> there's two issues here, right? And
21:39there's Nigerians who will be the
21:41syndicate who run the syndicate. But the
21:44people living in the building aren't
21:45necessarily Nigerians because remember
21:48some of these people are these are
21:49people who don't have documents to get a
21:51proper lease for a house. They'll be
21:54Zimbabweans. That's why we've got a
21:56whole host of Malawian sitting out there
21:58that people are asking where did these
21:59people come from because they didn't
22:01have an idea that there's so many people
22:03who are undocumented living in the
22:05country because they're living in these
22:07uh buildings or even informal
22:09settlements sometimes.
22:10>> So when you when we talk about
22:12syndicates,
22:14>> you will agree that syndicates are
22:16powerful people.
22:17>> Yes.
22:17>> And they tend to be in collaboration
22:20with the authority. And these are people
22:23if they're in collaboration with the
22:24authority then they have documents
22:27therefore they are the ones taking
22:29advantage.
22:31>> Not really. So in South Africa we've got
22:34a refugee and asylum seeker system.
22:36>> Yes.
22:36>> Which is what a lot of people use to
22:38their advantage.
22:39>> Mhm.
22:40>> Um so in South Africa people once they
22:43come into the country probably on a visa
22:46if they're outside of the static region
22:49they come in with a visa. But if they're
22:51coming from the Saddak region, you just
22:53need a passport. Then you can stamp it
22:55and come into the country. Some of them
22:57don't even need a stamp. They come at
22:58the border, they say they're refugees
23:00and asylum seekers, and they have no
23:01choice but to let them in because the
23:03law of the country says you have to let
23:05someone in if they say they're a refugee
23:07and asylum seeker.
23:08>> Well, South Africa is signed on to the
23:10refugee convention. Yes.
23:12>> So that but but we're we're different.
23:14So in other countries, the refugee and
23:16asylum seeker process is done at the
23:18border. In our country, it's not that
23:21way. The person has to come inland
23:24>> to look for a home affairs department to
23:26do an application, which is what they're
23:29trying to change now to make the
23:31application at the border. So that's why
23:33a lot of people are allowed sometimes to
23:35just come into the country because they
23:37claim they're refugees and then
23:39sometimes they never apply or sometimes
23:40they do apply and they get rejected and
23:42they continue to stay or they reapply.
23:46So we've got a whole host of people who
23:48have come into the country, claimed to
23:50be refugees or asylum seekers. Some of
23:52them didn't even claim to to be refugees
23:54and asylum seekers. They just came into
23:56the country. Others are on visas or
23:59passports and then it expires and then
24:01they continue to stay in the country.
24:03>> Let's go back to these syndicates
24:05because and and I'll tell you why
24:08>> you again we have to go back to the fact
24:11that syndicates are powerful. Yes,
24:13>> syndicates are in collaboration with
24:16very powerful people
24:18>> etc. So
24:21>> it is well known that those who are part
24:24of a syndicate at the very least those
24:26at the top of the syndicate will be
24:28documented. They have access to somebody
24:31to get them a passport to give them the
24:33documents otherwise
24:36>> breaking the law wouldn't be as easy for
24:38them. being a kingpin of an area
24:41wouldn't be as easy for them.
24:43>> You spoke of the undocumented immigrants
24:47that then live in these buildings. First
24:50and foremost, may I ask, how do you know
24:52they are undocumented? How do you
24:54identify an undocumented person? Look, I
24:58don't think it's for me to identify
25:00them,
25:00>> but I'm talking about things that are
25:03trends that have happened regularly in
25:06the country and the reason why they
25:08would be undocumented. Remember, a
25:10person who is documented
25:12>> produces proper papers to be in the
25:14country and in a building and to be
25:16located.
25:16>> So, most of them don't have those
25:18documents anyway. So, they find a place
25:20that's easy for them to occupy, which is
25:22a place that doesn't require
25:23documentation. And remember as you can
25:26see like I told you gave you an example
25:27of the Malawance that you just saw
25:29outside those people are 90% are
25:33undocumented right the other 10% are
25:36documented but their documents are
25:38expired so they are not supposed to be
25:39in the country anyways cuz they come in
25:41with the passport or whatever
25:43>> so this is something that we know has
25:46been happening and we've even got TV
25:48shows on TV that's the I think that's
25:50the worst part about South Africa is
25:52that we've got shows on TV that
25:54>> I actually saw one of those TV shows.
25:56>> Yes, there's quite a number of them.
25:57There's one that talks about hijacking
25:59>> on on DSTV. I saw
26:01>> Yes, there's one deals specifically with
26:03hijacked buildings. There's one that's
26:05deals with um drugs. There's one that
26:09deals with all of these illicit goods
26:10that are all over. So, there's quite a
26:12number of these shows that are on
26:14television. And this it's the same
26:15thing. It's the same trend. And when you
26:17talk to municipalities that are actually
26:19working like the municipality in Dwani,
26:22they will tell you every single place
26:26that you go to, these are the common
26:27trends because for a high-tech house for
26:29example, the trend is you have to come
26:31into the house, you have to vandalize
26:33the house, make it look beyond repair so
26:36that that becomes the first um thing
26:39that you do so that you can occupy the
26:41house. So that's why I'm saying, you
26:43know, when you're saying that um
26:44obviously it's people who have
26:46connections, 1,000% agree with you
26:49because these people who are running
26:51syndicates would never do that without
26:53the help of South Africans and they
26:55don't live there.
26:56>> Yeah. That's why I even told you that
26:58even with the houses that they can
27:00hijack, that's in that's information
27:02they get from South Africans. But the
27:04biggest and the most rotten apples we
27:06have here are politicians. Which is why
27:09we keep saying that South Africa has two
27:12problems. We have very corrupt
27:15government on top of immigration crisis.
27:17And that's why we find ourselves where
27:19we are today.
27:20But what many will say to you is
27:26your advocacy at least your activism
27:29march and march has led to very high
27:33tensions which is leading to anti-lack
27:39violence.
27:41>> What would you say to that?
27:43>> Well, I would say that's not true
27:45because I mean Operation Doula has been
27:47in existence for a long time. There's
27:48been,
27:49>> but it's still black on black.
27:50>> No, no, I'm I'm talking about March and
27:52March. Remember you you wanting me to
27:54respond about March and March being the
27:56cause of anti-lack um black?
28:00>> I know Operation Doula has been around
28:01for a long time.
28:02>> I'm trying to explain on March and March
28:04side.
28:05>> So, Operation Doula has been there.
28:07There's been Abahham there. There's been
28:09progressive forces. There's been plenty
28:12of other organizations before March and
28:14March even existed. Um and there've even
28:18been political parties, the patriotic
28:20alliance, the the actions, etc., etc.,
28:22that we've been actively advocating for
28:25this issue of illegal immigrants. Now,
28:27March and March, I feel we found um
28:32ourselves here because
28:34obviously I think it was a timing issue
28:37because now there's the GNU instead of
28:39the ANC. So maybe it's a bit more
28:41impactful because the government is not
28:43one government. there's more than one
28:46voice that um can speak for the
28:48government. Um it's not just one um um
28:52government organization that's running
28:54the whole show um who's authoritarian
28:58and wants to to to treat people like
29:00they they don't exist. And I do believe
29:03maybe it's just a matter of it being
29:05God's time. You know, it was meant for
29:08us to to to to be here and and deal with
29:11it. And you know this I don't remember a
29:14time where M and M was talking about
29:16race. The one thing M and M has always
29:19spoken about was documents but I do feel
29:22like people who who want to make this
29:24about a skin thing are being disingenous
29:27because obviously if we're in Africa
29:29majority of people that come to South
29:31Africa are African because it's one
29:33continent. So it's easier to come to
29:35South Africa from another African
29:37continent.
29:38>> But does anybody ask the white people in
29:40South Africa? Is it every white person
29:42in South Africa or every non-black
29:44person in South Africa that has their
29:46papers?
29:47>> But you see that's that's what you don't
29:49understand.
29:50>> March and March is not going to go to
29:52areas where white people are and
29:55advocate for white people. We're not a
29:57voice for white people.
29:57>> No, no, I'm not saying
29:58>> I'm trying to No, I'm trying to to make
30:00you understand how we end up
30:02>> it looking like black on black.
30:04>> So remember, we are black people.
30:07>> We are in black people areas. M
30:08>> we talk about things that affect people
30:12shops and these killings of children
30:14wasn't happening with people
30:17>> as black people. So when we advocate for
30:20those children that have passed away, we
30:22we don't care whether it's being done by
30:24pink, orange or green people. We care
30:26about the source of the problem. So if
30:29the source of the problem is Pakistanis,
30:31Somalians, Ethiopians and whatever,
30:33that's who we're going to deal with.
30:35Right now we go to to these factories
30:37that are exploiting people um that are
30:39working overnight and doing that. Those
30:41are Chinese. We still don't say, "Oh no,
30:43you're Chinese."
30:44>> Have you been to Chinese factories?
30:45>> Several times. Several times. I can even
30:48show you pictures of myself going to to
30:50Chinese shops with the police.
30:52>> Share them with me when
30:53>> I'll show you now. So we go there with
30:55with the police. We say like, "Okay,
30:57these people are undocument." We've
30:59dealt with plenty of Pakistanis,
31:01Somalians who don't have documents. It's
31:03not an issue of of just black people and
31:05us fighting with black people as some
31:07people like to perpetuate. It's
31:09absolutely not. Um, like I keep saying,
31:12this issue is not an issue of of skin
31:14color. It's a issue of documents.
31:16>> But it's black people that are mostly
31:18being affected just in
31:20the majority of them that are here
31:21undocumented. There's nothing we can do
31:23about that. And
31:24>> but nobody's documenting. Nobody's
31:26releasing any. In fact, as you rightly
31:29said, if there is no data for all the
31:32black people coming in,
31:34>> surely then there can't be any data or
31:36at least accurate data for all the white
31:39people coming.
31:40>> But you see, that's where you keep even
31:41all the Chinese.
31:42>> But that's why you keep missing my
31:43point. I'm I'm I'm repeating the point.
31:45You see here, we are in Chinese shops.
31:48That's me. You can see me personally
31:49dealing there with Chinese and and
31:51Pakistanis and Somalians. I look for
31:53more of these. waiting for it to so what
31:56I'm trying to say is that it's not a
31:57skin color thing.
31:59>> It's a are you documented thing and the
32:01reason there's more black people who are
32:03undocumented is because more of them are
32:06coming in undocumented. You understand?
32:08And as you can see those Malawians that
32:10are over there, they can't afford to
32:12live here.
32:14>> Do you understand? So where are they
32:15going to live? They're going to live in
32:17those poor communities where there's
32:18poor black people. So they they are the
32:20ones that are going to be complaining
32:22about them um being not not not um being
32:26>> um getting what they need because
32:28remember when those Malawans are going
32:30to to hospital I'm talking about those
32:32particular ones because
32:32>> the ones outside
32:34>> they go to hospitals where where there's
32:36other black people. So who ends up not
32:38having medication which is something
32:40we've been suffering from all along now
32:42there's not enough medication there's
32:44not enough beds. There is not enough
32:46space for for for people to go. So you
32:48can't make it seem as if this is a race
32:51thing. It's a it's a struggle for
32:53resources, which is what I always say.
32:56South Africa does not have enough
32:59resources for South Africans. Then comes
33:02Malawians who are having problems with
33:04their own governments. We understand
33:06they are poor. They're sad and all of
33:08that. But now it's not white people that
33:10are going to be suffering when they
33:12don't have beds in hospital. White
33:14people are fine. They don't have to deal
33:15with them. They're the ones that that
33:17probably even keep them and treat them
33:19like slaves and work make them work 10
33:21hours or 15 hours a day and pay them 100
33:24rand. You know, white people are the
33:26ones that are benefiting from those
33:28Malawians. But look at where they are
33:30now. Displaced because they don't have
33:32money to go home. Who is not paying them
33:34the money? The people that are employing
33:36them. So this is exactly what we are
33:38saying that we cannot have a system that
33:40glorifies modern-day slavery just
33:42because we're saying it's black people.
33:44It can't be because remember those same
33:46white people that you guys are saying we
33:47must fight against are the same white
33:49people. They come here and they worship
33:51and they treat like gods while we're
33:53trying to fight them for a minimum wage.
33:55How do you think we're going to get the
33:56minimum wage if they are the ones going
33:58to to white people and replacing South
34:00Africans as the modern-day slaves? It's
34:02not going to work. So I feel like it's a
34:04one-sided thing where you're thinking
34:06that we're fighting you because you're
34:08black. But no, you're the one setting us
34:09back as South Africans because we're
34:11black. Because if you're black and
34:13you're coming to the go and compete with
34:15white people then so that we can see
34:16that you're not fighting with other poor
34:18black people. Go and compete with white
34:20people. Why not?
34:23>> In that case I have to ask
34:25how many black people actually I'm
34:28talking about South Africans, educated
34:30South Africans. How many of them
34:32actually compete with white people for
34:35highpaying jobs, for highly skilled
34:37jobs, for professional jobs? How many of
34:40them
34:41>> you see the the the problem
34:42>> I'm just going by what you're saying.
34:44>> Yeah, I'm I'm hearing but that's that's
34:45a different conversation alto together
34:47because these are two different classes
34:49that you're comparing. I'm comparing a
34:51class of poor people
34:53>> and you're comparing a a middle class of
34:55black people.
34:56>> No, but you're saying that
34:57>> I'm going I'm going to go there with
34:59with the black people who are middle
35:00class. Now the same middle class that
35:02you're complaining about are now the
35:04same people who are who are part of
35:05March and March. And you know why that
35:07is? because South Africans who are
35:11hiring are not following
35:13labor laws.
35:16And what they're doing is we've got a
35:18host of unemployed teachers, a host of
35:22unemployed um doctors, a host of
35:25unemployed civet lecturers
35:29>> because
35:30the law of the country says that cuz a
35:32lot of people I see them saying that
35:34South Africans are lazy. they just want
35:36to remove people and that's not what
35:38we're saying. We're saying the country
35:40has laws, right? And if the law of the
35:43country says before I hire you as a
35:45Nigerian,
35:46>> I have to make sure that there's no
35:48other South African that is qualified
35:50for the job. Is that the law? That's the
35:52law. That's what the law says. I can I
35:54can send it to you just to verify,
35:56right? That is what the current law of
35:58the country says. Mhm.
35:59>> Currently that has not been followed
36:02because in universities, in hospitals,
36:05in schools where they're supposed to be
36:06lecturers, in formal structures with
36:09municipalities and other places, South
36:11Africans are not getting jobs because
36:13they're given to other foreign nationals
36:16without following due process. Currently
36:19even in parliament there's a huge uproar
36:21that you must see that they've the the
36:23the the parliament parliamentarians have
36:26asked how many foreign nationals are in
36:29our universities because now what
36:32happens is
36:33>> you come in right as a Nigerian
36:36>> you get a a good position at a
36:38university.
36:39>> Oh you mean as a lecturer? as a
36:40lecturer. Oh, one thing. I think a
36:43lecturer is like a I senior position
36:46right as a head of department.
36:49>> Head of department. Yes.
36:50>> So, you head that department and
36:52naturally the next thing you start doing
36:54is recruiting other Nigerians to come to
36:57the university that you're working at
37:00>> without following due process. So this
37:02is now an an inquiry in parliament
37:04currently going on because a lot of
37:07universities are hiring lecturers who
37:10are foreign nationals in in a in in a
37:14way that they shouldn't be hiring them
37:15because they are South Africans who are
37:17qualified. So I want you to understand
37:20that there's a a fight here at the lower
37:23level of things. There's a fight even in
37:25the middle class where South Africans
37:27are saying now we're being wiped out of
37:29our own jobs for our own job securities.
37:32We're not saying we're not qualified.
37:34We're not saying give us those jobs
37:35because we're South Africans and we just
37:37but give us those jobs because we
37:39qualified. You can't go to another
37:41country and look for someone.
37:42>> So are you saying that there's a
37:45practice of discrimination against South
37:48Africans or is it that the jobs because
37:52I
37:54I find
37:55>> you know why you know why it's so
37:56difficult for you to believe
37:58>> and I understand why a lot of people
38:00look at South Africans as crazy people.
38:02>> No I I don't actually.
38:03>> No, trust me. I I understand.
38:05>> I'm saying I understand if you look at
38:07us as crazy.
38:08>> Well, I actually don't
38:09>> because it's crazy that we're in this
38:12situation.
38:13>> It's actually ridiculous that we have to
38:17fight for something that's in the law
38:19and is supposed to be followed as per
38:22the law. But it's not.
38:24>> But what what I find hard to understand
38:28is that you are saying
38:30>> that if a head of department and HOD is
38:34hired for a university
38:36anywhere and they bring they tend to
38:39hire a foreigner. That's what you're
38:41saying, right? And if they hire a
38:44foreigner, a non-S South African, that
38:46non-S South African then hires non-S
38:50South Africans perhaps from the same
38:52country. Yep.
38:53>> Or otherwise.
38:54>> Zimbabweans do that a lot.
38:56>> Right. So, but here's the thing though.
39:00The head of department is not the head
39:02of the university.
39:03>> They are some of them. I'm trying to
39:05show you department.
39:06>> Remember, you can be head of department,
39:08but you also can be um have another
39:10Zimbabwean in HR. I'm trying to find you
39:13this thing so that you don't think I'm
39:15creating stories and and whatnot.
39:18>> It's not I don't think it's that people
39:19are looking at South Africans as crazy.
39:22Certainly I think you will find that
39:24most people would understand if look you
39:27are saying to government
39:30we have a crisis in our hands of you
39:34know our poorest borders which are not
39:36being manned. We are demanding that is
39:38manned. We are also demanding for
39:41stricter immigration laws. We are
39:43demanding for stricter laws against you
39:48know uh for for clearance at the
39:50borders.
39:51>> I don't think anybody's going to argue
39:53with you on that just I think what most
39:55people whether you accept it or not is
39:59that this the rhetorics from your group
40:03whether it's I know there's a um
40:07which I think it means get out. Abahham.
40:10>> Abahham.
40:11>> Yeah. It means get out, right? Or
40:12something like that. Yes, I I know of
40:14those.
40:15>> Get out. Get out. Sounds bad.
40:17>> Pardon?
40:18>> They must go.
40:19>> They must go. There you go. Well, pretty
40:21much the same. It's not the worst.
40:23>> Okay. Well, no, they must go. Get out,
40:26you know. Um I know that, but that those
40:30those groups are not the most prominent.
40:33Yeah, that's why I'm saying the same
40:3730th of June.
40:38>> I You know what? You know why they're
40:40not the most prominent.
40:41>> Why is that?
40:42>> Because they've never pulled marches
40:44with the crowd that we have.
40:46>> Which is why you have to accept that
40:50March and March has to take
40:53responsibility
40:54for the tensions.
40:56>> No, we're not
40:56>> for the anti- migrant because
40:59>> we're not going to take responsibility.
41:00Mara March was saying look we are
41:03fighting for everybody in the country we
41:06because we want this country we want
41:08government to do better by us.
41:10>> Yeah
41:11>> we want that to start by government
41:13securing our poorest borders. We want
41:16that to start by government putting out
41:18stricter immigration. We want that to
41:21start by government having faster
41:24quicker more you know clearance with
41:27integrity for those who come in.
41:30with refugee. In fact, even if you were
41:32demanding we want government to review
41:36their, you know, their the refugee laws
41:38in South Africa, I don't think anybody
41:41would have a problem with that at all.
41:43>> But what is and cannot be denied is
41:47>> much as you say those people outside the
41:51Malawians who were outside I think is um
41:54Durban driving. That's right. Old Durban
41:57driving by the sea. Much as you say look
42:00all of those people are undocumented all
42:02of those people were living in these
42:04houses which are run by cartels etc.
42:07Much as you say that
42:10>> at the fundamental of it
42:12>> yes
42:12>> is humanity yes
42:14>> and that is the question where does
42:16where does where does march and march
42:19draw the line between government's fa
42:22failures and humanity given that
42:25>> can I just find out from you in terms of
42:27of humanity
42:29>> Mhm. What what role do you think we
42:32played in them being at the drive-in and
42:36you feel like it was our fault to create
42:39a humanitarian crisis? If I can just get
42:42clarity.
42:43>> Okay. Like I've just explained to you,
42:45>> all those other groups you mentioned,
42:47they're much smaller. March and March
42:49are the forefront. You
42:51>> No, it's fine. Let's say let's say you
42:52are at the forefront. I'm just trying to
42:54get
42:54>> and the rhetorics that come out is
42:58>> anti- migrant. You are not saying that
43:01when you are not saying
43:02>> no let me tell you something. Let me
43:04tell you something. When I started march
43:06and march
43:08>> you know when I started march in March
43:11um even our first march was directed to
43:13the government.
43:14>> Mhm.
43:15>> There was no foreign employment um
43:17involvement at all. None whatsoever. You
43:20didn't mention anything about migrants,
43:21foreigners.
43:22>> Of course, we talk about that cuz we're
43:24talking about illegal immigration,
43:25>> but you were directing.
43:26>> Yes, that's what I'm trying to tell you.
43:28>> What was the chant at that time? What
43:29was the
43:30>> No, it's it's always No, it's always
43:32been Abahham. That's not going to change
43:34because obviously because they're in the
43:36country legally cuz you can't tell me
43:38that. I always say you can't tell me if
43:40you come into a country legally, you're
43:42innocent. Of course, you're not. You
43:44know what I mean? You
43:44>> Why not?
43:45>> Why are you innocent? You came into my
43:47country legally.
43:48>> Okay. So, What what makes you innocent?
43:51>> This let's talk about that. Okay. There
43:53are people when people are refugees and
43:56they come to
43:57>> No, that's not No, I don't. You see,
43:59that's why I avoid I don't like having
44:01this conversation about we're being
44:04honest. You know why? Cuz every time we
44:06talk about this, the first position that
44:09people assume a migrant is is a victim.
44:11Okay?
44:12>> Because if you're saying to me that
44:13they're a refugee, you're automatically
44:15giving them a victim label, which is not
44:17fair. But do you not believe that there
44:19are refugees?
44:19>> Everyone is here.
44:20>> No, not everyone is a refugee. I
44:22>> my point. Majority of the people we have
44:24here are not refugees. They're not.
44:26>> But there are 7,000.
44:28>> Those people are economic migrants. They
44:30are not refugees.
44:31>> How do you know? Have you seen their
44:33>> working? But have you seen their papers?
44:35>> But there are 7,000. They arguably I'm
44:39just saying arguably
44:40>> you're saying to me, wait, I want I want
44:42to find out what makes you believe they
44:45are refugees. Maybe if you can define
44:47that for me. From looking at them, we
44:50decided they're refugees.
44:50>> No, no, no, not from looking at I'm just
44:52saying to you the groups who support
44:54them, okay, will tell you that these are
44:58documented refugees. But to finish to
45:01the point,
45:02>> I'm I'm talking about factually here.
45:04Let's talk facts.
45:05>> 90% of those people are undocumented,
45:08right?
45:09Most of them, majority of them say they
45:12went there because they needed to get
45:15home before the deadline. That's what
45:17they said. They want to go.
45:19>> Yes. Yes. Right.
45:20>> So, I'm asking you from that analysis
45:24and from those statistics
45:25>> from what they said,
45:26>> what makes you give them the label of
45:29refugees? Like why?
45:31>> And and this is what I'm saying to you.
45:32Let's separate it. You said those who
45:35want to go, those those people that have
45:37said we've come here because we want to
45:39leave before the 30th cuz obviously
45:42people are petrified. They're afraid and
45:44nobody knows what's going to happen.
45:46We'll talk about that later.
45:48>> I interviewed
45:50documented
45:52migrants yesterday.
45:54>> Right.
45:54>> From where?
45:55>> From Nigeria.
45:57>> I have them. I interview them and they
45:59say they're documented but they want to
46:01go because one they're afraid. There was
46:04a man who had been here for 30 years.
46:08>> Okay. He said I've seen this happen many
46:11times.
46:12>> Okay. I've seen the violence but this
46:14one is different.
46:15>> He said I go into a shop and I'm
46:18attacked. I go into this and this his
46:20wife is there, his child is there. He
46:22said Jason I'm documented. I've been
46:24here for 30 years. I had a business. So
46:27what I'm saying to you is it's not just
46:30those who are undocumented.
46:32That's why I want to talk to you. I
46:35wanted you to tell me.
46:37>> Yeah, I'm I'm going there. I want you to
46:38tell me when you say they're documented.
46:40I want to know what to say.
46:41>> So it's not just you mean they are
46:43documented.
46:44>> Well, they say they have their papers.
46:45>> You don't know that, right?
46:46>> Well, I'm just saying, but neither do
46:48you. You don't know the papers for all
46:50those. You see, that's why I want you
46:52and I to be
46:53>> to try and understand it, right? because
46:56I'm living here
46:57>> and I can grab the next South African
47:00when we come out of here right and ask
47:03them from the interviews that we have
47:05seen of Nigerians once they land in
47:08South Africa how many of them do you
47:10believe are telling the truth
47:13>> so what Nigerians are liars because
47:15that's your experience
47:16>> Nigerians no not just Nigerians all the
47:19people once they leave South Africa
47:21>> once they leave
47:22>> yes I mean when they land in their
47:23countries from from what they expl Once
47:25they evacuate again,
47:26>> once they start describing what was
47:28happening in South Africa.
47:29>> Mhm.
47:29>> It's stories that we know are not true.
47:32Because someone will say, let me give
47:33you an example. I'm giving you an
47:34example. I'm taking you there. Someone
47:35will say,
47:36>> I came here on a visa. There's a man who
47:40said he was here
47:41>> for I think 20 years. He came here. He
47:44was um he said he had um oh, he was an
47:48asylum seeker. Then he said he his
47:52documents expired but he was running a
47:54business. All
47:56right. Now,
47:59you know those stories don't don't come
48:01together, right?
48:03Because you can't have a document
48:05expire, then you're an asylum seeker.
48:07Because you must decide, p if you're
48:09coming in as a visitor, you're a
48:10visitor. Then you're asylum seeker,
48:12you're an asylum seeker. When you're
48:13seek asylum is the first thing that you
48:15do. You seek asylum cuz that's what
48:17you're here for. You can't seek asylum
48:19after a document expires. And then on
48:21top of that, you open a business. What
48:23documents are you using to open a
48:24business?
48:25These are things that you see. That's
48:28what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying.
48:29I want us But what if they had opened
48:31the business whilst they had the papers?
48:33>> That's what I'm saying. You can't open a
48:34business with those documents. There are
48:36certain documents that allow you to open
48:38a business. There are others that don't.
48:40You can't open a business with an
48:42application for an asylum seeker.
48:43>> I see. You can't you can't there's
48:46>> but you can open one once you're clear
48:48as an
48:49>> there's in the country there's 250,000
48:53only refugees and asylum seekers the
48:56entire system
48:57>> 250,000 documents
48:59>> in the entire system. So, as someone
49:01who's been on the ground doing work, as
49:02you can see in in the video I showed
49:04you, we literally go with the police and
49:07home affairs because we're allowed we've
49:09got a right to do that with the police
49:10and home affairs
49:12>> to see these documents.
49:14>> What they started doing now is they take
49:16a paper. Remember an asylum seeker
49:17document is a piece of paper. It's
49:19nothing special.
49:20>> They photocopy, they stick all of them,
49:23they have the same documents.
49:25>> Majority of them don't have real
49:28documents. I don't know if you've seen
49:29there's a report by the SIU that was
49:32saying exactly that that some of them
49:33are even buying these documents
49:35fraudulently. Nigerians come here as
49:38students majority. So I'm just trying to
49:40to paint the picture of how they come in
49:43as student visas.
49:45>> So there's a young boy who passed away.
49:47I don't know how he passed away not too
49:48long ago. So Nigerians are trying to get
49:50money for him to go home or that that
49:52boy who tragically passed away as an
49:54Uber driver.
49:55>> So he came in the country.
49:56>> Well, he was killed. He didn't pass
49:58away.
49:58>> No, no, he was killed. He was killed.
49:59>> No, it was it was a crime issue. It was
50:01a crime. Yes. Let's let's
50:03>> No, I'm just saying he was killed
50:05because
50:06>> No, no, no. It was crime by somebody in
50:08the car, a driver, a passenger that he
50:11killed. Absolutely. And that was very
50:12tragic. Nobody advocates for that.
50:14>> But when they found out his documents,
50:16he came as a student.
50:18>> He never went to study a day in his
50:20life. And when he was now trying to to
50:22to to work, he was working using someone
50:26else's identity. Do you understand what
50:27I'm saying? So I'm trying to paint a
50:29picture of how people come into the
50:31country. So there's there I think they
50:33said about 4,000 student visas had been
50:35issued and all of these people are not
50:38students
50:38>> in to Nigerians in how many years?
50:40>> I don't know.
50:43I'll send you the report so that you can
50:44see it. I'll send you the report so you
50:46can see it for yourself. But what I'm
50:48trying to say to is that the problem is
50:50there's too many issues happening at the
50:51same time in the country. You
50:53understand?
50:53>> Certainly.
50:54>> So we've got an issue of illegal
50:55immigration, just illegal immigrants
50:57just walking in at the border because
50:58the border is nonsense, right?
51:00>> Then there's an increase of of people
51:03who are buying documents, which of
51:06course we can't blame people because if
51:07there's there's corrupt people selling
51:09documents, yes, the corrupts, both of
51:12them are corrupts, the buyer and the
51:13seller, right? And then on top of that,
51:16there's people who are photocopying
51:17documents, carrying them around, but
51:19they're not real documents. Even today,
51:21they caught another one who was trying
51:23to come and get a smart ID in in um in
51:26just down the road
51:27>> because there's so many fake documents
51:30in the country. I hope you understand
51:32that.
51:32>> Absolutely.
51:33>> And then on top of that, let me add to
51:34to the problem so you have a picture.
51:36There's only 800 immigration officers in
51:39the entire country for a population of
51:43god knows how many people because the
51:45the one that was there from stats essay
51:47it says 65 million people right that was
51:502022
51:52right that's they said 65 million people
51:55right at the time we don't know how many
51:58people are in the country but there's an
52:00estimate of illegal immigrants anything
52:03from 15 to 30 million these are are
52:05separate studies that are done
52:06separately, right, from service
52:08provider, whatever, whatever, right?
52:10>> So, can you imagine if there's 65
52:12million people and then a minimum of 15
52:14million illegal immigrants, that's
52:16roughly 18 if you're taking the minimum
52:18and not the maximum of 30 million.
52:20>> 80 million people with 800 immigration
52:23officers. Now, that means one
52:26immigration officer is for 1 million
52:28people, which is one of the things we're
52:30trying to solve with the government.
52:31We're saying you can't say you're
52:33solving an immigration crisis with only
52:36800 officials. That's why we go to the
52:39police cuz the police as well don't even
52:41know the laws when it comes to
52:42immigration. Some of them we had to tell
52:44them
52:45>> what the law says when it's immigration.
52:47Some of them you'd come to a a um a
52:50workplace and they'd ask for documents.
52:52Someone would present um a passport.
52:55>> We say police, but a passport is not a
52:57working document. a passport is for
53:00coming into the country as a visitor or
53:02whatever. In order to work in South
53:04Africa, you need a work permit.
53:06>> Of course,
53:07>> police didn't know that.
53:08>> Right.
53:09>> But isn't that again that's your
53:11government?
53:11>> No, I don't deny that. I don't deny it.
53:14But remember, this is the problem in
53:15South Africa. South Africans by right
53:18have a right to a citizen's arrest.
53:21Which is why the police cannot refuse if
53:23I take them and say, "Let's go and
53:24arrest someone."
53:25>> Right.
53:26>> Right. Police cannot refuse if we come
53:28as a security company and arrest
53:30someone. So if we as much and not go
53:33with the security company and arrest
53:34people, it's within our rights. We're
53:36not breaking any laws.
53:38>> That's the problem.
53:39>> But what is happening is a program. What
53:40is happening is
53:42>> No, I don't want you to think that that
53:43we're doing that. We don't do that. We
53:45always have police. Always. You must
53:47know that wherever we are, we go with
53:49police. The unfortunate part though is
53:52that the citizens are the ones that are
53:54living with these people. And and I'm
53:56telling you the biggest problem is not
53:58mut and m you're looking at the wrong
53:59people. The biggest problem is the
54:02communities that are staying with people
54:04who are illegal immigrants or
54:06foreigners. That's where your biggest
54:07problem Okay, that might be granted, but
54:13>> arguably
54:15>> the
54:17advocacy, the activism, the rhetorics of
54:19march and march
54:21>> does encourage them because what?
54:24>> Well, like you said, the communities are
54:26taking action into their own hands.
54:28That's what you're saying, right?
54:29>> But I'm saying, you know, we we don't
54:31take action into our own.
54:32>> No, not you. I'm saying the communities.
54:34That's what you said. You see every time
54:36someone says that much and m is to blame
54:38for rhetoric that's the part I don't
54:40get. You can't blame us for violence.
54:42>> So do you think M is innocent of all the
54:45accus?
54:45>> Giving you an example. If you talk about
54:47violence right much and M has never from
54:50day one advocated for violence. We've
54:53always advocated for making our voice
54:55heard and taking to the streets and not
54:58just going there going to boardrooms. We
54:59go to boardrooms we meet with
55:01governments. We sit in meetings. We sit
55:03with every there's not a single
55:04department we haven't gone to meet. We
55:06sit in the crime fighting council of the
55:08province because we know that this issue
55:11is a crime issue. And that's exactly
55:14what we're trying to point out. We're
55:16trying to highlight the problem that
55:18we've had in this country for years and
55:20years and years. And every time that
55:21it's raised, it's called xenophobia. And
55:24we said this even from day one last
55:25year. We said that we know for a fact
55:27that the minute we start raising this
55:29issue, it's going to be called
55:30xenophobia.
55:32from day one. That's what we said.
55:34Because when you nobody wants to listen
55:36to what we're saying and I think that's
55:37where South Africans get frustrated, you
55:39know, when every time we're trying to
55:41raise our concerns, you don't listen to
55:43what we're saying. You choose to make us
55:45the bad people about the problems that
55:47we're experiencing in our country
55:49because of people we don't know. You
55:51understand? You wouldn't be okay in your
55:53own house with people just walking and
55:55you don't know them. You don't know who
55:56they are. You don't know how they're
55:57staying. They start taking things from
55:58your house. Of course, you wouldn't feel
56:00comfortable. This is exactly what we're
56:01complaining about. We're saying can you
56:03listen to
56:04>> So why then doesn't march a march come
56:06out? You say march is has never
56:10advocated for violence. Why then doesn't
56:13match a match come out and say and
56:15actually condemn the violence.
56:18No go into these communities like you
56:20said you know these communities you know
56:23the community.
56:24>> I just had a march now.
56:25>> Mhm.
56:26>> A march with plenty thousands of people.
56:29Thousands. I said the same thing. I was
56:31on TV saying the same thing. You see
56:33this video here with 1.8 million people.
56:35That's why I'm saying the same thing.
56:37The first one. Yes.
56:38>> It's got 1.8 million million views. I'm
56:42reiterating.
56:43>> What's the volume?
56:44>> I'm reiterating exactly that. It's in
56:46Zulu and I'm doing it in I'm doing it on
56:49purpose so that you can so that people
56:51can understand what the message is.
56:53>> So what's 30th of June about?
56:55>> So the 30th of June was not announced by
56:57us, right?
57:00There's mach and m there's there's right
57:04where three different entities
57:06>> three different groups.
57:08>> Yes. So has his own thing where he'll
57:10march. You'll see him sometimes. We're
57:12not there when he marches.
57:13>> We're not there.
57:14>> Which one is that? The guy that's
57:15wearing the Zulu
57:18>> that wears the Zulu outfit. Right. He's
57:20a different group.
57:21>> He's got his own organization.
57:23>> So he's not part of March March. No.
57:24>> Right. He's called
57:26>> in.
57:28Right.
57:29>> Gizway is a media personality who has
57:31always been in the media who's had a
57:32following even before March and March
57:34all the issue of illegal illegal
57:36immigration has always been a public
57:38figure. He's always been a celebrity
57:40with followers etc. Right
57:42>> now
57:46is his own person right but we march
57:49together when we're marching together. I
57:52don't know if that makes sense.
57:53>> Absolutely. I hear that. But he can do
57:55his own thing.
57:58>> But these are the people like you said
58:01this this man is speaking in violent
58:03rhetoric. They say show me your friends
58:06and I'll tell you.
58:08>> So if marcher march is not for violence,
58:11why then are you marching? Let me
58:13repeat.
58:14>> No, I'm just saying why are you marching
58:16with them?
58:16>> There's no way I I can't refuse anyone
58:18to march with march and march. anyone
58:20and everyone has a right to march and
58:22say what they advocate.
58:23>> But knowing full well that like you said
58:26march is not saying he's advocating for
58:28I've never seen him advocating for
58:30violence.
58:32>> These are people that carry weapons when
58:34they're marching. Right.
58:35>> Do I see a Zulu wedding?
58:37>> Well, no, it's not that. I'm trying to
58:39prove to you. No, I I understand. I'm
58:41trying to say I do get that. I'm trying
58:43to say but a Zulu wedding is not with
58:46chance on the streets of South Africa.
58:49saying to you
58:50>> with friends going to the vulnerable.
58:53>> But who goes to the vulnerable? Because
58:55the march is to the streets. The march
58:58is to the streets. The march is going to
59:00the government. Every single march we
59:02have has a memorandum. I'm repeating
59:04again.
59:05>> But where's your government office?
59:07>> It's wherever we're going.
59:08>> No, no. As in where is the president's
59:11office?
59:12>> We've been to the president's office.
59:13The union buildings,
59:14>> right? So why is the why is the march
59:17not every time? You can't listen to what
59:19Listen to what I'm saying. Listen to
59:21what I'm saying. In South Africa,
59:22there's three spheres of government,
59:24right? Local national government,
59:26there's a provinial government, there's
59:28local government. Absolutely.
59:30>> So, it depends on where the march is
59:32going, right? So, national marches,
59:35>> that's when you'll see the three of us
59:36together, right? That's why you will see
59:38us going to union buildings together.
59:40That's why you'll see us going um to to
59:43the provincial uh government in Kha when
59:46we're together. That's why you'll see us
59:47here and having the mayor or the premier
59:50come and collect a memorandum here in
59:53Durban etc etc.
59:56>> So that's a national march but when they
59:58do their provincial marches and they go
1:00:00to municipalities they go to the
1:00:03provincial departments of home affairs
1:00:05to come cuz remember sometimes we don't
1:00:07go to home affairs home affairs will
1:00:10come to where the march is. Do you
1:00:12understand?
1:00:13>> I'm catching.
1:00:13>> Yes. So every single time we march, we
1:00:15hand a memorandum over to home affairs.
1:00:18But it doesn't mean we're going to
1:00:19>> Have you met with him? Have you sat with
1:00:22the minister of home affairs?
1:00:24>> Several time. I sit if I can show
1:00:26>> and what has he said? What has he said?
1:00:29>> You know the minister of home affairs.
1:00:31We don't sit with him directly. We sit
1:00:32with
1:00:32>> which is the democratic alliance.
1:00:34>> Yes. We sit with the I mean with the DG
1:00:36we speak all the time the people who are
1:00:38the role players in that department
1:00:40>> but not the minister himself.
1:00:42>> Yeah. the minister hasn't made time with
1:00:43us, but we've went and spoken to to the
1:00:45DA to present our case to state the
1:00:48reasons. We've gone to the BMA. We've
1:00:50gone to to the to the to the when you
1:00:52are asking for inputs on on um changes
1:00:56to to the white paper. We've done that.
1:00:58We've gone to parliament. I've been to
1:01:00parliament to make a presentation on
1:01:02this. The minister was there as well.
1:01:04So, that's what I'm trying to say that
1:01:06we're not just marching the streets as
1:01:08march and march. I want you to
1:01:10understand that. That's why I'm trying
1:01:11to help you to differentiate between
1:01:13these three people. There's March and
1:01:15March which does their own thing.
1:01:17There's his own thing. There's his own
1:01:20thing. But they are not the only ones as
1:01:22well. There's other organizations.
1:01:24There's progressive forces. There's
1:01:26Abahham. There's operation dudulla.
1:01:28There's this and that. There's truck
1:01:30drivers associations. There's LA etc.
1:01:33Right? That's why I want you to
1:01:34understand this. Right? So Lo will be
1:01:37the one that deals with the labor
1:01:38inspectors, making sure that South
1:01:40Africans are hired, etc., etc. That's
1:01:42how it works. It's just that March and
1:01:45March just gained prominence because for
1:01:49for some reason, you know, in in Ghana,
1:01:51they started trending that Victoria had
1:01:53told this Ghanaian that he must go home.
1:01:56People said that's just in of March and
1:01:58March. It was Victoria. I was like,
1:01:59okay, it doesn't matter cuz the message
1:02:01is the same anyway. you know somehow
1:02:04gracefully I'm not going to run away
1:02:06from that march and march takes takes
1:02:09takes the blame for it all
1:02:12>> let's talk about education
1:02:14>> I mean sorry unemployment
1:02:16>> in South Africa South Africa still has
1:02:19one of the world's worst highest rate of
1:02:22unemployment
1:02:24>> um especially with young people
1:02:26>> yeah youth unemployment
1:02:27>> youth unemployment
1:02:31>> isn't that a bigger crisis.
1:02:33>> But what makes you think we're not
1:02:34solving this crisis?
1:02:36>> Have you solved it?
1:02:37>> Yeah, a lot of people are getting
1:02:38employed. I'll I'll send you a dozen. I
1:02:41mean, I might not have the correct
1:02:43number with me right now, but we've got
1:02:44tons of people who are getting employed
1:02:46who weren't employed before, which is
1:02:48exactly what we were saying because
1:02:49we're dealing
1:02:50>> they were not employed before. Is it
1:02:52that they're replacing the migrants that
1:02:54have been
1:02:55>> saying to you? It's what I was saying to
1:02:56you in the beginning that we live in a
1:02:58capitalist country. Of course,
1:03:00>> where capitalists are trying to to
1:03:02maximize profits by all means.
1:03:04>> So, of course, if it means banking labor
1:03:07laws, they're going to do that.
1:03:08>> So, a lot of them have been um trading
1:03:11in um proper labor practices where they
1:03:16have to follow due process and pay a
1:03:18minimum wage for hiring people who are
1:03:21cheap labor. And this has been ongoing.
1:03:23There's even no I've youth associations
1:03:27come out to say
1:03:29>> there's no youth association in
1:03:30>> so that's the other thing but the labor
1:03:33unions the labor unions are not
1:03:35supporting what you're doing
1:03:36>> we don't mind
1:03:38>> but yeah but the labor unions are
1:03:40responsible for employment labor unions
1:03:44some of them are aligned with political
1:03:45parties so what do you think they
1:03:47>> but some would say that you're aligned
1:03:48with the political parties I don't know
1:03:50that's what some accuse you of
1:03:51>> well they cannot accuse me of something
1:03:53if they can't prove it, then it's just
1:03:54an accusation. I mean, I've been accused
1:03:56of working for Israel.
1:03:58>> Do I care? I don't care.
1:04:00>> If anyone can prove that I work for
1:04:02Israel.
1:04:02>> No, I'm just asking. Do you
1:04:04>> I'm saying there's no reason for me to
1:04:05work for Israel because Israel is a
1:04:07foreign country.
1:04:08>> Israel is exactly what I'm trying to
1:04:10fight against.
1:04:11>> Why would I want Why would I want Israel
1:04:13to have infiltration in South Africa?
1:04:15It's exactly my problem with this
1:04:17country. We've got too much foreign
1:04:19infiltration in this country right now.
1:04:21are saying the same thing that
1:04:22Israelites and Palestinians are coming
1:04:24here to fight their religious war in
1:04:26South Africa. Why must we put up with
1:04:27that? Why? Like which country in Africa
1:04:31must stand for a fight between two other
1:04:33countries that are not even South
1:04:35African? Does that make sense?
1:04:37Does that even make sense?
1:04:39>> So let's go back to this unemployment.
1:04:40So you say you've employed
1:04:43>> I'm saying I'm not saying
1:04:45>> you've been able to I'm saying yes and
1:04:47much I've been able to please
1:04:48>> not much and much a number of
1:04:50organizations that have because like I
1:04:52gave an example LA is specifically
1:04:55dealing with the employment of um South
1:04:58African young people
1:04:59>> others are we've met for example with
1:05:03Uber take a lot etc personally as much
1:05:06and much we've met with them we've
1:05:07highlighted the importance of sticking
1:05:09to the to the laws of the country and
1:05:11we've seen that um some of them are
1:05:13abiding by that law and
1:05:16we're happy with that. That's what we
1:05:17want.
1:05:17>> But what about those businesses?
1:05:19>> Why is it that the Spasa shops, as you
1:05:22said, they're run by migrants?
1:05:25>> They're not run by South Africans. Why
1:05:27is that?
1:05:29>> Have you ever heard of a Spasa shop
1:05:30mafias?
1:05:32>> No. Tell us about them.
1:05:33>> Yeah. So there's a a new model now where
1:05:36Pakistanis, Somalians, Ethiopians and
1:05:38Bangladesh are killing people who are
1:05:40trying to open tuck shops
1:05:42>> and um they're killing each other
1:05:45sometimes. I think you've seen might
1:05:47have seen the recent killings of tuck
1:05:49shop owners in Johannesburg
1:05:51uh that are running these shops. They're
1:05:54fighting for territory in that area
1:05:56because somehow they believe that they
1:05:58must give each other territory in in
1:06:00this country. So that's uh one of the
1:06:02things that That's that's a new thing.
1:06:05>> It's not
1:06:06>> these spa shops have been around for for
1:06:08years
1:06:08>> for forever. I mean, they're local
1:06:10shops. That's what they are.
1:06:12>> But do you remember what I told you when
1:06:14the the conversation started
1:06:15>> that
1:06:16>> that they are getting these products
1:06:18from the
1:06:19>> Yes, I I understand.
1:06:20>> I understand that if they're getting
1:06:21that product that's expired or not in in
1:06:24the same product that the the price is
1:06:26going to be cheaper. So, they presented
1:06:28themselves as someone who's pro
1:06:30providing a cheaper quality. Then after
1:06:33the years go by, we realize that the
1:06:34standard is actually not the same.
1:06:36>> But one of the things that have caused
1:06:38for the
1:06:39>> are South Africans entrepreneurs.
1:06:41>> They are I mean there's a community in
1:06:43Guatemma I believe they took out all the
1:06:45migrants. Those shops were run by South
1:06:47Africans all these years. We've always
1:06:49been those families. Those shops have
1:06:51taken people to school. They've made
1:06:53people entrepreneurs, lawyers. They've
1:06:54made them doctors. People who came from
1:06:56those these were the shops that we grew
1:06:58up around.
1:07:01you know, that's how we grew up. We
1:07:03never had um these foreign shops um
1:07:06being owned by Somalians and Ethiopians
1:07:08before. This is something that's new to
1:07:09us and that's why there's children that
1:07:11are dying now because the standard is
1:07:13not the standard that it's supposed to
1:07:14be. And remember, these people are
1:07:16living inside these shops. They're
1:07:17eating. They're sleeping in the shops.
1:07:19They're bathing in the shops, which is
1:07:20not supposed to be done. That's exactly
1:07:23what we're complaining about.
1:07:26Historically all over the world,
1:07:29migrants,
1:07:31whether documented or undocumented,
1:07:33migrants are economic migrants. They go
1:07:37somewhere, they work their way up from
1:07:39the bottom, and then they end up getting
1:07:42to where they want to get to. Save up
1:07:44the money, do like you said, low paid
1:07:48jobs, save up their money, open their
1:07:50shops, open their businesses, because by
1:07:53and large, they don't want to work for
1:07:55anybody. Yeah.
1:07:57>> Why is that such a bad thing?
1:07:59>> It's not a bad thing.
1:08:01>> Nobody said that's a bad thing.
1:08:03>> Well, what you're saying is because
1:08:05they're not documented.
1:08:06>> No, you don't understand why.
1:08:07>> No, you have a problem with the the kind
1:08:09of food that they bring in.
1:08:11>> You're not listening to what I'm saying.
1:08:12>> Oh, forgive me. Go ahead.
1:08:14>> We don't have a problem with migrants,
1:08:16right? We have a problem with
1:08:18unregulated migration, first of all,
1:08:20because that's the first thing.
1:08:22unregulated
1:08:24and people we don't know running even
1:08:26right now there at that Malawian place
1:08:28they caught a Malawan who had raped a
1:08:30girl who was also trying to run away and
1:08:32go back to Malawi right
1:08:34>> on top of that I'm saying you cannot
1:08:37come into a country and then have
1:08:39something called a sph mafia for example
1:08:42where you are saying the locals must be
1:08:44killed or terrorized them for opening
1:08:46business in their own country
1:08:49>> two on top of that you cannot provide us
1:08:52with substandard goods because you want
1:08:54to trade them for goods that are
1:08:57actually of good quality so that you can
1:08:58sell us a substandard products at a
1:09:01cheaper price while putting the lives of
1:09:03children and people in danger because
1:09:06people end up dead and they are not
1:09:09getting any justice as we speak. Just
1:09:11last week I think about six or seven
1:09:14schools had children landing up in
1:09:17hospital after buying food from spas
1:09:19shops. That's my point is that migrants
1:09:23they come into a country they are
1:09:24regulated
1:09:24>> but can march sue the government for
1:09:27these things why don't you sue the
1:09:28government money we would sue them if we
1:09:31had money we'd sue them you think taking
1:09:32the
1:09:32>> but Jacob Zuma's party MK marches with
1:09:35you as well right
1:09:38>> your former president
1:09:39>> so
1:09:40>> could he not fund that kind of legal
1:09:44case because it would be
1:09:46>> the minute we take money from the MK how
1:09:48much that's going to be a talk of the
1:09:50town, then it's going to be something
1:09:52that it's not about. It's going to be
1:09:53about us fighting the current government
1:09:55and not fighting immigration because the
1:09:58propaganda that's already being spread
1:09:59is already ridiculous. So, can you
1:10:01imagine if we were to take money from
1:10:03the MK to take the government to the
1:10:04just just think about it? What would the
1:10:06headlines be saying?
1:10:08>> How closely do you work with them though
1:10:09on the marches as March march?
1:10:12>> I I've worked I'm actually much closer
1:10:15with MK Lo. world. They don't call
1:10:18themselves MK Laco. They call themselves
1:10:20Lo with Action SA with the Patriotic
1:10:24Alliance who we've had a fallout with
1:10:26now with Operation Doula. And you know
1:10:28why? Because the very first ever March
1:10:31and March, those are the only
1:10:32organizations that supported us.
1:10:34>> Okay. Is that not the same MK? That's a
1:10:36separate MK to Jacob Zuma.
1:10:38>> They they're not they're not they're a
1:10:40labor
1:10:41>> right union. Right. Right. But those are
1:10:44the people from the very first ever
1:10:46march in March 2025 they were there.
1:10:50>> So those are the people that I'm close
1:10:51with.
1:10:52>> Everyone else has come after I mean the
1:10:53IFP also came afterwards and we very
1:10:56close with the IFP as well. We sit with
1:10:58the premier of the province. We discuss
1:11:00this problem. We try and solve it. He's
1:11:02also very worried about the state of of
1:11:04the province and the state of the
1:11:06country and and rightfully he should. We
1:11:08all are. We all are worried about the
1:11:10state of this country. Unfortunately,
1:11:12every time we try and states our
1:11:15problem, nobody wants to hear it because
1:11:17you want to make it seem as if South
1:11:19Africans are just like this bunch of
1:11:21crazy people who just like hate migrants
1:11:24and
1:11:25>> I certainly don't. Otherwise, I wouldn't
1:11:27be here to
1:11:28>> I'm just going to go back, you know,
1:11:30your voice.
1:11:31>> That's fine. I get that. I mean, I It's
1:11:32not like
1:11:33>> I mean, I think there's one of the
1:11:34reasons why this interview was important
1:11:36is like you rightly said, there's a lot
1:11:38of misconceptions. because there's a lot
1:11:40of things that are said about you. So,
1:11:42it was important for me certainly as a
1:11:45journalist to have you even if we go at
1:11:48it. Let me tell you, I think I've lost
1:11:51faith in journalism. Personally, as a
1:11:53person, I don't think I don't think
1:11:55there's there's journalism, you know, in
1:11:58in the world actually because
1:12:01>> there was a time where we were marching
1:12:02to union buildings. I'll just give you
1:12:04an example.
1:12:04>> Please do
1:12:05>> because I'm just trying to make you see
1:12:06just how how bad things are. I mean,
1:12:09I've been in journalism. I I'm not
1:12:12expecting you to come here and like, you
1:12:14know, try and make me um Mother Theresa
1:12:18of sorts and just like Nobody, you know
1:12:20what I mean?
1:12:21>> Nobody's a mother.
1:12:22>> That's not what I want. That's not what
1:12:23I want. But I'm saying just don't say
1:12:26something I didn't say, which is why I'm
1:12:28giving you No, I get that. I mean, I get
1:12:30that. I'm just trying to paint a picture
1:12:31of journalism for you.
1:12:34>> So, this particular march went to the
1:12:36union buildings. Like I said, the
1:12:38president's um office.
1:12:40>> Yes. Basically, and we handed over
1:12:43memorandum. What what what
1:12:46>> now when we were going there, people are
1:12:48singing and chanting as you were saying,
1:12:50uh with sticks and what what what hello.
1:12:53And then when we got there, um
1:12:58the the story comes out and it's an
1:13:00international news agents and when the
1:13:03story comes out they say we woke up in
1:13:06the morning and decided to chase
1:13:07migrants on the streets.
1:13:10Um they said nothing about us going to
1:13:13to the union buildings. They said
1:13:14nothing about us handing a memorandum to
1:13:16government. They said nothing about the
1:13:18government actually. They sent their
1:13:20deputy minister in the presidency to
1:13:22accept the memorandum and and she spoke.
1:13:25He said nothing about that. Absolutely
1:13:27nothing. There were stories there that
1:13:28were shared by people who were sharing
1:13:30their experiences. People who from the
1:13:33tuck shop business who are saying, "I've
1:13:34been run out of my own tuck shop
1:13:36business. This and this is what
1:13:37happened." Not a single one of those
1:13:39stories made it. The only story that
1:13:41made it was that of
1:13:43>> black Zulu men holding sticks, chasing
1:13:46migrants down the streets. And and mind
1:13:49you, nobody was being chased on that
1:13:52day. But I'm trying to tell you that I
1:13:54don't believe in journalism. I'm
1:13:56agreeing to this interview because I
1:13:58want people to decide
1:13:59>> for themselves.
1:14:00>> For themselves. Absolutely. You know, I
1:14:01want you to to
1:14:03>> be the one that says she's talking
1:14:05nonsense. You can write whatever you
1:14:06like on social media,
1:14:08>> but one thing I know about the truth is
1:14:09that it stands, you know. And I don't
1:14:12think for talking of truth,
1:14:14>> I don't think for 32 years we could have
1:14:15stayed with migrants if we hated them.
1:14:18You know, I don't think South Africans
1:14:20are horrible people. I think we're one
1:14:21of the nicest people in the world and
1:14:23that's why we have Mundo as as our core.
1:14:26But eventually,
1:14:27>> but the same South Africa
1:14:30South Africa has been the greatest
1:14:32beneficiary of panaffricanism.
1:14:34>> No, that's not true.
1:14:36>> Why is it not?
1:14:37>> Because let me tell you something.
1:14:38Pan-Africanism. If you can calculate how
1:14:41many people left South Africa to go to
1:14:43other countries to stay there, it's at
1:14:44about 50,000 people.
1:14:45>> What is that? Why is it measured in
1:14:47numbers?
1:14:47>> It's measured in Africa.
1:14:49>> No, no, no, no, no. I'm I'm going there.
1:14:51I'm going there.
1:14:52>> South Africa currently has donated the
1:14:54most to healthcare in the entire Africa
1:14:57of all African countries.
1:14:58>> What? In aid? Yes. In
1:15:00>> in aid. South Africa currently has
1:15:03hosted some of the most
1:15:07loose
1:15:08um rules when it comes to migrants in
1:15:10South Africa. In South Africa, refugees
1:15:13and asylum seekers are practically
1:15:15citizens of this country, right?
1:15:17>> But you know why that was? That is
1:15:20because Africa came to be a
1:15:24deny that. Let me finish what I'm
1:15:25saying.
1:15:26That's what I'm saying. Cuz I'm trying
1:15:27to go to the point where you feel like
1:15:29we haven't paid enough for that.
1:15:31>> No, no, that's not what I'm saying.
1:15:32>> But that's what I feel like because I'm
1:15:35saying remember my point is I want you
1:15:37to hear what my point is.
1:15:39>> I'm saying for 32 years we have returned
1:15:42the favor. That's my point.
1:15:44>> 32 years we've returned the favor. We've
1:15:47sacrificed of ourselves so much. We've
1:15:50given up our cities. There are places we
1:15:53cannot go to that are owned
1:15:55predominantly by foreigners. We can't go
1:15:57there. We've given jobs. We've given our
1:16:01our documents. People have have been
1:16:03neutralized. They've been given refugee
1:16:05status, asylum seeker status,
1:16:08everything. But honestly, at some point,
1:16:10guys, you have to be fair. You have to
1:16:13be fair. Everyone cannot want to come
1:16:15here and we must keep quiet about it.
1:16:17undocumented, untraceable, committing
1:16:20crimes, doing all kinds of things, and
1:16:22every time we try to say something about
1:16:24it, you're not listening. You want to
1:16:26say xenophobia, aphroia, hate. That
1:16:29makes you like block out completely what
1:16:32we're trying to say.
1:16:33>> Actual issues that you're trying to
1:16:35>> because when we sit on t on Sundays and
1:16:36we watch, I'm sure you've seen
1:16:39>> is that the one on the one I said with
1:16:41the big lady which goes to the
1:16:43>> No, that's that's Zandy. That's the one
1:16:44that's the one that that goes where
1:16:47these employers are are
1:16:49>> the ones where they're living in the
1:16:51houses.
1:16:51>> Yes. You know, those are the ones that
1:16:52are are hiring illegal immigrants.
1:16:55>> So, I'm saying to you, remember, we're
1:16:57still fighting the same white people
1:16:58that you're saying that um oppressed us,
1:17:01right? We're still trying to get
1:17:02>> Well, this is what I this was going to
1:17:03be my point is that why are you not
1:17:06addressing or maybe you are tell me
1:17:09>> the greatest issue in South Africa is
1:17:12the fact that apathide you still have
1:17:15economic apathide
1:17:16>> but you see that's what you're not
1:17:17listening to and I answered this in the
1:17:19beginning.
1:17:20>> No, you did. I said it's difficult to
1:17:23fight white people currently because
1:17:25they are basically rendering us out of
1:17:28our own country using migrants
1:17:32and you guys don't want to hear that
1:17:35because if a white person is now having
1:17:37a Zimbabwan as a garden boy a Malawian
1:17:40who work 24 hours a day and they do
1:17:42everything they worship them they're at
1:17:44the feet and then the South African says
1:17:46but my minimum wage is 5,000 rand a
1:17:49month and You come as Sarah from
1:17:52wherever and you say I'm going to take
1:17:542,000 rand. Does that fight not set us
1:17:57back?
1:17:58>> Of course it does. Now we now have to
1:18:01focus on the employers not being
1:18:03arrested.
1:18:04>> That's what we're trying to do right
1:18:05now. Remember South Africa has been
1:18:07going on this lawlessness all along and
1:18:11that's why we came as much and much to
1:18:13say these are the laws. That's why we
1:18:15are strong as much and much which I
1:18:17think is what people don't understand
1:18:19why maybe we're like the fa because we
1:18:22come and we say we point out this is
1:18:24what the law says since I started with
1:18:26you
1:18:27>> that's the only thing I've been saying.
1:18:28>> Absolutely.
1:18:29>> That's the only thing I've been saying
1:18:30because nothing that we want to do is of
1:18:32outside of the law. That's why we don't
1:18:34advocate for people to be killed. We
1:18:36want Africans, and I'm saying this
1:18:38again, to fight their government the
1:18:41same way we are because they owe us
1:18:43that. Africa is not going to thrive if
1:18:46we all hide behind going to other
1:18:48countries, going to Europeans, and they
1:18:50calling us um slaves and making us cheap
1:18:52labor. We're never going to progress as
1:18:54a continent. We can't live in fear of
1:18:57our leaders. That is not leadership. And
1:19:00currently Malawians are not are not
1:19:02scared of their of their of of the South
1:19:04African government. But the minute they
1:19:06land in Malawi, they're scared of the
1:19:07Malawian government.
1:19:10That's the problem because now here they
1:19:13are slaves to white people. The same
1:19:15white people you want us to fight. We
1:19:17are fighting them, but you're setting us
1:19:18back. And now when they go to Malawi and
1:19:21they land in Malawi, they know the laws
1:19:23and the rules because they respect their
1:19:25government. Here in South Africa, we
1:19:27protect the human rights of people. Why
1:19:29is it not every single African country
1:19:33prioritize the protection of human
1:19:34rights of its own citizens?
1:19:37>> Absolutely.
1:19:37>> That's that's what we're complaining
1:19:39about.
1:19:39>> Well, you have the repatriation flights
1:19:42going or the evacuation flights if you
1:19:44want to talk about that. You have the
1:19:46Malawians also moving their people by
1:19:49bus. Ghana has done the same. Countries
1:19:52are responding. But that's not but you
1:19:54see that's not the point. You know
1:19:56you're talking
1:19:58I'm talking about they shouldn't even be
1:19:59there.
1:20:00>> You understand? Because the government
1:20:02is not providing them with what they
1:20:04need. And when you listen to Malawians
1:20:06who are talking about this issue, they
1:20:08are complaining that these migrants are
1:20:10the ones that don't want to go to
1:20:11school. From what we've been reading,
1:20:13they're saying, "Yeah, these people are
1:20:15they keep running to South Africa
1:20:16because they're lazy. They don't want to
1:20:17go to school. Then they make us look bad
1:20:19to the rest of the world." That's why
1:20:22Malawi is in Malawi. That's what they're
1:20:23saying. You understand? Which is one of
1:20:25the things that I was saying
1:20:27>> is that in South Africa that's why we
1:20:29emphasizing the vetting process because
1:20:31we want migrants in the country. But
1:20:34give us good migrants. We want those
1:20:36good Niger
1:20:38doctors. We want
1:20:39>> When you say give us good migrants, I
1:20:41grew up in the UK. Yes.
1:20:42>> And I grew up I don't need to say my age
1:20:45on camera, but put it this way. I grew
1:20:48up at the time of heightened heightened
1:20:51racism in the UK and we have the same
1:20:53thing occurring again and this that is
1:20:56the language of white supremacism. They
1:21:00always say give us the good migrants,
1:21:02give us the good Nigerians,
1:21:05give us the bad migrants. No, no, no.
1:21:07Give us the good black people.
1:21:09>> So what am I supposed to say? Am I
1:21:10supposed to give us the bad migrants?
1:21:12>> But do you realize how your language
1:21:15>> No, you're not listening to what I'm
1:21:16saying. That's why I think you you want
1:21:18to compare me to white people.
1:21:19>> No, I don't. Not at all.
1:21:21>> I'm not white people.
1:21:21>> No. No. I'm not at all. I'm trying. But
1:21:23that's the language of
1:21:25>> It's not I'm not racist.
1:21:26>> I'm not saying you are hateful.
1:21:28>> I'm saying I'm talking about what's
1:21:30happening in my country right now. I'm
1:21:32not going to account for what's
1:21:33happening in the UK. I don't know why
1:21:34white people say that. I'm talking about
1:21:36what's happening in South Africa.
1:21:38Because if Malawians in Malawi, you hear
1:21:40me, are saying that these people are the
1:21:44ones that don't want to get an
1:21:45education, that's why they come here and
1:21:47they do all of these things. We actually
1:21:49get the same from Nigerians who say the
1:21:51people that are coming to your country
1:21:53to commit. I've had several Nigerians,
1:21:55several. I can even show you some of the
1:21:57inbox if I can find them. The people who
1:21:59are in your country committing bad
1:22:00things are because they are the ones
1:22:02that live committing crimes. These are
1:22:04things that they have told me. These are
1:22:06people in their own countries.
1:22:08>> But nobody ever said nobody I mean
1:22:10nobody ever said idiocy is unique to any
1:22:12part of the world. They're idiotic
1:22:14people all over the world.
1:22:15>> But I'm saying there's no country that
1:22:17is wrong for saying they want good.
1:22:19There's nothing wrong with that because
1:22:20if you as a Nigerian say you want good
1:22:23South Africans to come in Nigeria,
1:22:24there's nothing wrong with that. There's
1:22:26nothing racist about that.
1:22:27>> But these are the same good Nigerians as
1:22:29you call it that you say take the job of
1:22:32an HOD. You don't you you
1:22:34>> I'm just saying
1:22:36Africa we've got Nigerians who are
1:22:38doctors, right? Who are providing a
1:22:40scarce skill?
1:22:42>> Yes.
1:22:42>> Which is something we applaud.
1:22:44>> Okay. So, you're okay with that?
1:22:47>> Because No, hold on. Because you said
1:22:49earlier that jobs were South Africans
1:22:53were being discriminated.
1:22:54>> You don't understand. I was explaining
1:22:56what the law says. The law says that you
1:22:59must employ South African first.
1:23:01>> Listen, listen to what I'm saying.
1:23:03>> There's IT specialists
1:23:05>> that come from outside of South Africa
1:23:07that are providing skill that no South
1:23:08African has.
1:23:09>> Correct.
1:23:10>> The law allows that. It's perfectly
1:23:12fine. I'm saying we can't afford
1:23:15ordinary doctor doctors like entrylevel
1:23:18doctors to not have jobs because we're
1:23:20taking entrylevel doctors without any
1:23:23special skill from outside of South
1:23:25Africa. That's my point that I'm trying
1:23:27to make because I'm I'm quoting exactly
1:23:30what the law says and the law is not
1:23:32wrong to say that because you don't want
1:23:34to close out opportunities for your own
1:23:36people who don't have anywhere else to
1:23:38go but to this course. That's my point
1:23:40that I'm trying to say because for
1:23:42example if we've got teachers currently
1:23:44we've got so many Zimbabwean teachers
1:23:47that are are not are not are not in this
1:23:49country right
1:23:51>> and when you follow
1:23:51>> you have many Zimbabwan teachers in
1:23:53South Africa right
1:23:55>> yes I I'll give you the numbers I don't
1:23:57have them right now
1:23:58>> please remind me to give you
1:24:00>> don't worry I'll send you a message
1:24:02>> so we've got a lot of Zimbabwean
1:24:03teachers but we've got a high
1:24:05unemployment of teachers you understand
1:24:07my point and that is why And that's
1:24:10local authority. Are the teachers not
1:24:11employed by local authorities?
1:24:13>> We're not denying that. That's exactly
1:24:14my point. What we're doing is much and
1:24:17much. Like I I tried to explain to you,
1:24:19we're going to meet with ministers. We
1:24:21meet with um um the government. We meet
1:24:25with premers of provinces. We meet with
1:24:27the police. We meet with officials. We
1:24:30even take our concerns to parliament.
1:24:32That's why we mingle with political
1:24:33parties, right? Because remember, we're
1:24:35not in parliament, but political parties
1:24:37are in parliament. So when we have a
1:24:40complaint we take it to a political
1:24:42party to raise in parliament right
1:24:45that's why we have to have a
1:24:46relationship with political parties you
1:24:49understand so that's why I'm trying to
1:24:50to to explain here is that right now in
1:24:54South Africa all of that is being fixed
1:24:57because for a long time it's gone on as
1:25:00if it's normal whereas law laws were
1:25:03being broken even with those employers
1:25:05that you're saying the white people
1:25:07that's why those people are sitting
1:25:09outside because now they're scared that
1:25:11they are coming into the spotlight
1:25:13because all along they were using those
1:25:15people as cheap labor which is exactly
1:25:17what I'm saying is that that's our
1:25:20that's our duty to highlight what the
1:25:22law says and why people are breaking the
1:25:25laws. That's that's the point. Okay,
1:25:27>> let's talk about the 30th.
1:25:29>> Yes.
1:25:31>> What's the plan for the 30th of June?
1:25:33What should we be expecting? I do wish I
1:25:36could stay till then but I can't.
1:25:38>> The 30th of June once again it was a
1:25:40date that was announced by Pagalumat
1:25:42right
1:25:43>> he gave it as a cut off date for all
1:25:45people who are in the country legally to
1:25:48selfport and go home
1:25:50>> because our government when we spoke to
1:25:52them they said that deportation is very
1:25:54expensive.
1:25:55>> This is what they said uh deportation is
1:25:58very expensive. we can't afford to
1:25:59deport all these people and therefore
1:26:03um that's why it's taking so long. So I
1:26:06believe that when he said that it was a
1:26:09motivation for people to go to their
1:26:12country and and um leave the country
1:26:15obviously because they know they're
1:26:16they're not in the country legally. And
1:26:19then when we saw the dates is like
1:26:21gaining momentum. Everyone is talking
1:26:22about it and they're aligning into March
1:26:24and March. Obviously now we're getting
1:26:26worried like okay
1:26:29because what is going on? What is this
1:26:31about the 30th of June that everyone is
1:26:33talking about? So he tried to explain it
1:26:35to say that it's not an event. It's not
1:26:38a a holocaust like people are trying to
1:26:41make it out to be. It's just a day that
1:26:43we've seen. Well, it's it's been
1:26:45presented and the way people have
1:26:46received it is a day of open a day when
1:26:50people
1:26:50>> I know I know I know
1:26:51>> is it not that
1:26:53>> no
1:26:54>> it's just going to be a day
1:26:55>> as much in March like I said we know we
1:26:58saw the dates is getting out of hand
1:27:00>> because people have expectations that
1:27:03some of them are going to go out there
1:27:04and do crazy business.
1:27:06>> Absolutely. I mean, I've seen videos of
1:27:10somebody sharpening an um an axe saying
1:27:14the 30th of
1:27:15>> the government has warned them against
1:27:17that. Right.
1:27:17>> What's warning going to do? Whoever is
1:27:19>> I know because honestly I I can't you
1:27:22see that's what I'm trying to say. We
1:27:24didn't announce the 30th of June. We are
1:27:26now trying to just put the situation
1:27:29together, right? So that there's no
1:27:31people running around acting crazy. But
1:27:34at least when we gathered in one place,
1:27:36we can have a march and there's police
1:27:37and there's security. We can manage
1:27:39that.
1:27:40>> Are you going to march on the 30th?
1:27:41>> We'll have to. We don't have a choice
1:27:43because if we don't march, people are
1:27:45going to start doing crazy things like
1:27:46the one you just said,
1:27:48>> right?
1:27:48>> That's the problem because now everyone
1:27:50associates the 30th of June with March
1:27:52and March. And if we decide to sit back
1:27:54and not do anything and say, "Ah, we're
1:27:55not going to do anything." What is the
1:27:57government doing? Why don't you say we
1:27:59will have our march on the 1st of July
1:28:02or the 5th of July? Please do not do
1:28:04anything on the 30th of June.
1:28:06>> Oh, they're not going to listen to that.
1:28:08>> They're not going to listen to that
1:28:10because the the 30th of June has been
1:28:13it's taken on a life of it by
1:28:15government,
1:28:16>> right? Even government even the
1:28:18international world is now talking about
1:28:20the 30th of June as if like then I I
1:28:22said to like I even said to the
1:28:24government the problem is the
1:28:26communication of the government because
1:28:28why are you creating fear like people
1:28:30must just be scared if you are scared
1:28:32for example let's say for if they felt
1:28:34like we are scaring people why not call
1:28:36us
1:28:38>> you understand call us and say guys uh
1:28:40the 30th of June what is going on how do
1:28:43we mitigate the situation let's sit
1:28:45together how do we fix
1:28:47You know what I mean? Don't go onto
1:28:49public platforms and keep saying, "Oh
1:28:52no, we are ready. We've got this much
1:28:54police. We've got this." It's adding to
1:28:57the fear. I was saying that we've had
1:28:59hundreds of marches. We've marched
1:29:01almost every day.
1:29:04You haven't seen people going and and
1:29:06>> but we do see though. I mean, we've got
1:29:08no not much. We do see individuals.
1:29:12All I can say is that would it not be?
1:29:14No. I I am asking this is a question.
1:29:17>> I'm frustrated because I have to look
1:29:19out for things other people do and I'm
1:29:21trying my best.
1:29:22>> It's not I I get what you're saying that
1:29:23it's not march but when you see these
1:29:26videos of people individuals going into
1:29:30shops gangs going into shops saying get
1:29:32out doing this doing that. Do you do No,
1:29:36what I'm saying is
1:29:39>> let me
1:29:39>> do you not feel like I I like stop this.
1:29:43Have you said stop?
1:29:44>> I've said it several times. I even
1:29:46showed you a video.
1:29:47>> I've been on TV saying the same thing
1:29:49that we've never advocated for violence.
1:29:52We don't
1:29:52>> all the other groups
1:29:55of Austin. Yes, they do.
1:29:56>> They do. They do.
1:29:58>> But how do you tell somebody to stop
1:29:59when you're holding
1:30:01weapons?
1:30:03>> I'm trying to tell you that weapons are
1:30:05part of the culture. It's just part of
1:30:06the Even if I show you wedding videos
1:30:09right now, they're still holding sticks.
1:30:11M
1:30:12>> it's part of the outfits. It's got
1:30:13nothing to do with terrorizing people or
1:30:16beating them up or whatever, you know,
1:30:18and that's I that's why I'm repeatedly
1:30:21trying to explain that there's a cross
1:30:23messaging somewhere and there's a lot of
1:30:24fear. Obviously, I understand it's
1:30:26coming from things that have happened in
1:30:28the past. I get that. But also try and
1:30:30be rational when you're looking at
1:30:32things. You know, try and sift through
1:30:34the message. Listen to when I speak.
1:30:35Listen to what Justinta is saying. Don't
1:30:38create your own version of what I'm
1:30:40saying. If you've never heard me
1:30:42advocate for violence, you can't then
1:30:44say that's what I'm saying. Because
1:30:45every time, like I say, I continuously
1:30:48say we are dealing with the government.
1:30:50We go, we handle memorandum to
1:30:52government. When we do operations, yes,
1:30:54we're going to find illegal immigrants.
1:30:55We're going to remove them because they
1:30:57are breaking the law. They're not
1:30:58supposed to be in the country. But we're
1:30:59not going to do that on our own. We're
1:31:01going to have the police there because
1:31:02we're allowed to do that by law. But
1:31:04everything must be within the law. Okay?
1:31:06But we have to force the government
1:31:08unfortunately to do this with with with
1:31:12absolute vigor. Even if it goes to
1:31:14protesting every single day, we have to
1:31:16do that. But like I said, we do not want
1:31:19a model where people are going home in
1:31:21dead bodies. That's not what we want. We
1:31:24want a model where people are going home
1:31:26in full peace like you and go there and
1:31:29say, "Listen, we were in South Africa.
1:31:30We were chased away, but we saw that the
1:31:33infrastructure is working, the roads are
1:31:34working. We want that for ourselves so
1:31:36that we don't have to go to South
1:31:38Africa. You owe us that as our
1:31:39government. And if it means that all of
1:31:41us as Africans come together and be
1:31:43united with one voice and prove that
1:31:45panafricanism is something that would
1:31:47work, it will work when we don't have to
1:31:49run away from our countries. There's no
1:31:51panafricanism that works because you
1:31:53have to run away from Nigeria. That's
1:31:54not panafricanism. It means we're not
1:31:56being honest with ourselves.
1:31:59>> My last two questions. Number one is you
1:32:02mentioned earlier on about lies or or
1:32:05perception and things that have been
1:32:06said about you
1:32:08>> in particular to do with Nigerians.
1:32:12>> What do you hold up to? Because I saw a
1:32:14video of you talking about your mother
1:32:16>> and um and Nigeria, right? Um there's
1:32:20also um word of that you used to post
1:32:23that you were dating a Nigerian and
1:32:25everything. Can you put that together
1:32:27and just unpack that for us? What is
1:32:29true? what is false.
1:32:30>> So
1:32:31>> because it is believed that that's
1:32:32partly why you hate Nigerians.
1:32:34>> I don't hate Nigerians.
1:32:35>> Okay.
1:32:35>> They make me angry.
1:32:37>> Why?
1:32:37>> Because of their attitude and their
1:32:39behavior in the country.
1:32:40>> How so?
1:32:40>> Um because of the drugs. Because of
1:32:45>> Not all.
1:32:46>> Of course. Is that a representative?
1:32:47>> It's not all.
1:32:49>> I'm listening.
1:32:50>> It's not all. Mhm.
1:32:51>> That's why I'm saying I have very good
1:32:53Nigerian friends that we discuss
1:32:55football with that we happen to be
1:32:57Lionel Messi fans and we all love Messi
1:33:00and that's why I have some Nigerians who
1:33:02are even supporting me. Henry talks Ace
1:33:04all of those people cuz they understand
1:33:06what I'm saying
1:33:08>> that South Africans you know the reason
1:33:10why we are so angry when it comes to
1:33:12foreign nationals if we're being honest
1:33:14because of Nigerians, Ethiopians,
1:33:16Somalians, Pakistanis and the way
1:33:18they've been behaving in our country.
1:33:20Right. Of course, it's not all of them,
1:33:22but like I said, if a if if something is
1:33:25in your eyes, like if they've taken over
1:33:27cities where they call an entire point
1:33:30road, an entire place, it's known for
1:33:32drugs, it's known for prostitution. And
1:33:34everywhere where you find that there's a
1:33:36number of Nigerians, that's the most
1:33:37common things. There's drugs, there's
1:33:39prostitution, there's children there
1:33:41being trafficked to to sell their
1:33:42bodies, etc. This is a normal thing. And
1:33:45that's why we are angry. It has nothing
1:33:47to do with and we always say we know
1:33:49that Nigerians are good people
1:33:51especially those in Nigeria we we're not
1:33:53advocating
1:33:54>> well there are lots of good Nigerians in
1:33:55South Africa no we know I mean there's a
1:33:57huge professional
1:33:58>> trust me professional
1:34:01I have some of them as friends so I know
1:34:03that I know that I'm talking about those
1:34:05particular ones I'm not talking about so
1:34:08I don't know when I speak and I speak
1:34:10about Nigerians in a negative tone I'm
1:34:12talking about those ones I'm not talking
1:34:13about every single Nigerian
1:34:15unfortunately it's going to come out as
1:34:17generalized because they are a general
1:34:19group unfortunately.
1:34:20>> So when we talk about that it's it's not
1:34:23because we're saying we look at
1:34:25Nigerians and we say oh we hate you. No
1:34:28>> no you said behavior you said not them
1:34:33as people. We don't like the things
1:34:35they're doing in the country. That's a
1:34:37fact.
1:34:38>> And we just wish that the ones that are
1:34:40thereled
1:34:42>> of what's happened to your mom. So what
1:34:44happened with my mom is that she was
1:34:46married to a Nigerian,
1:34:48>> okay,
1:34:49>> that she was not married to and she was
1:34:52told um when she tried to divorce they
1:34:55they they said when she tried to remove
1:34:57the marriage and do they say she had to
1:34:59divorce and he would give her half of it
1:35:01and that was the whole fight around
1:35:03that.
1:35:03>> Do you know where he was? I mean did she
1:35:05>> know the person at all?
1:35:06>> So how did she end up being married to
1:35:07him? It's the thing I was telling you
1:35:08about the home affairs fraud and
1:35:10corruption that they do that. It was a
1:35:12normal thing long time ago before they
1:35:14tightened up the system. So now that
1:35:16system has become tighter but now what's
1:35:18happening is
1:35:19>> but can a South African woman give a man
1:35:23>> No, they definitely do that. Some of
1:35:24them
1:35:24>> No, I'm just asking can a South African
1:35:27woman give nationality to a non South
1:35:30African man.
1:35:30>> Like I said the system has been
1:35:32tightened. Before it was easier you
1:35:35automatically
1:35:35>> but I think your law is that a South
1:35:37African woman cannot give nationality to
1:35:41a non-S South African man.
1:35:43>> Isn't that it?
1:35:44>> No, they can. That's why there's a lot
1:35:46of there's a show even on TV called fake
1:35:48marriages.
1:35:49>> That's what they do. They give them
1:35:50money to to marry them. Then a lot of
1:35:53them end up having problems cuz their
1:35:54children now end up having to have the
1:35:56surname of this man that they don't even
1:35:57know. So they're asking this presenter
1:36:00on TV to help them find this man so they
1:36:03can
1:36:05marriage because it was a fake marriage.
1:36:07>> So it's a it's a thing that happens,
1:36:09>> right?
1:36:09>> Yeah.
1:36:10>> So it is possible for a non-S South
1:36:12African male to marry a South African
1:36:14female and then get a citizenship.
1:36:17>> Yes, it's very much possible.
1:36:20>> Is there naturalization?
1:36:22>> Yes.
1:36:23>> But why is that rarely ever spoken
1:36:24about? Why is it always document
1:36:26document document? I'm just asking
1:36:28>> because naturalization is a more
1:36:29difficult process,
1:36:30>> right?
1:36:31>> Yeah.
1:36:32>> So, citizenship is easier.
1:36:34Naturalization kind of makes you a full
1:36:36citizen. You're able to vote, etc., etc.
1:36:38So, that's very difficult. It's not as
1:36:41easy as as um getting citizenship.
1:36:43>> Okay.
1:36:44>> Yeah.
1:36:44>> Okay. So, your mom that we were talking
1:36:47about that a lot of people end up being
1:36:49married with people that they didn't. I
1:36:51think that's where this first sort of
1:36:54pain came from, if I can call it pain.
1:36:57And you know, just being around people
1:37:00sharing their different stories, man, it
1:37:02hasn't been nice. But like I said, you
1:37:04hate the actions, you don't hate the
1:37:06person.
1:37:07>> That must be very clear because I mean I
1:37:10I've met Nigerians all across the world.
1:37:12You still get along. We still find
1:37:14there's like I said, there's other ones
1:37:16where we we have football in common. We
1:37:18sit, we talk about it because you don't
1:37:20hate the nationality, you hate the
1:37:22actions.
1:37:23>> And I and I really actions of some.
1:37:25>> Yes.
1:37:27in in our country. I think it's most in
1:37:31our country.
1:37:32>> You think most Nigerians in Nigeria in
1:37:34in South Africa are criminals?
1:37:37>> Not necessarily. They don't have to be
1:37:39criminals. It's just behavior.
1:37:40>> Yeah. But behave in what way? So if
1:37:42they're not criminals, what's the other
1:37:44behavior? Because marrying somebody
1:37:47>> without their knowledge is criminal
1:37:48behavior.
1:37:49>> Let me tell you, I don't want to put the
1:37:51blame solely on them.
1:37:53>> No, I know. I'm just asking you about
1:37:55Nigeria country that makes it easy for
1:37:57corruption to happen. That's where the
1:37:59problem is. So there'll be rigging,
1:38:01electricity, hijacking. There's a lot,
1:38:04you know, there's a lot that happens.
1:38:05And I don't want you to take, like I
1:38:08said, I'll send you some of the story so
1:38:09you can understand, you know, it's not
1:38:11something that you must take at face
1:38:14value.
1:38:15>> Okay?
1:38:15>> Like I said, sis Octto, even two
1:38:17episodes ago, it's always on Sunday.
1:38:19>> Always on Sunday. There's always
1:38:21Nigerians selling drugs and
1:38:24>> do you not think those programs actually
1:38:27add fuel to the fire? They make things
1:38:29worse. That's why I was saying they
1:38:31inflamed.
1:38:31>> That's why I was saying to you why M and
1:38:34M came about. Much and M came after
1:38:36Suza.
1:38:37has been playing for 3 years and that's
1:38:39why people have been getting angrier and
1:38:41that's why we also decided to take a
1:38:44stand because people in communities were
1:38:46getting angrier
1:38:46>> because the one I watched even though
1:38:48they take them away right you don't ever
1:38:51get to see the results of how many were
1:38:54documented how many yes how many were
1:38:56undocumented so it gives a framework of
1:38:59we've arrested 100 200 from this house
1:39:03and I saw the woman talking to I mean
1:39:05for a start the way she speaks to them
1:39:07is totally unacceptable, I have to say.
1:39:10But outside of that, the framing is
1:39:12we've come into this house, we've taken
1:39:14all these Malawians out, um, you know,
1:39:18>> and then they put them in a bus and
1:39:20>> those ones, it's for it's for the ones I
1:39:22was telling you about that.
1:39:23>> You never get to hear
1:39:25>> I'll show you the crime that I'm talking
1:39:26about.
1:39:27>> Yeah. I'm just saying you never get to
1:39:28hear the result of when they take them
1:39:31to the police station or or when they
1:39:33take them to the ministry. The result is
1:39:35not there. So those things are just
1:39:38fueling the the polity and just making
1:39:40things, you know, they're rage baiting.
1:39:43>> But that's what I'm saying to you that
1:39:44that's why the tension has been so high.
1:39:47>> It's not something that came now. It's
1:39:50been ongoing. It's been
1:39:51>> And this is DSTV and DSTV has a huge
1:39:55market across Africa. Indeed, a hu a
1:39:58huge market in Niger.
1:39:59>> You got a right to complain about that.
1:40:01I think you can submit your complaints
1:40:03and I'm sure they they'll take it in.
1:40:05But the point is those are the shows
1:40:07that we sit and watch and you can
1:40:09understand from a South African
1:40:10perspective. If you're on Sunday, every
1:40:12single Sunday you're seeing Nigerian
1:40:14saying, "Oh, I came to South Africa. Why
1:40:16are you selling drugs?" Or because I'm
1:40:18not working. Then you ask yourself, "Why
1:40:19did you come to South Africa? So all you
1:40:21guys are here to sell drugs." It makes
1:40:23everyone unhappy.
1:40:24>> It makes everybody angry.
1:40:25>> Exactly. And I'll show you I'll show you
1:40:27the
1:40:27>> And it stigmatizes the group.
1:40:29>> Exactly. Exactly. But then it also
1:40:31doesn't help that every Sunday they're
1:40:33there as well.
1:40:35Well, because they know where to go. I
1:40:36mean, if I want to prove that somebody
1:40:39is or a group is bad and I know that I
1:40:42know where to find the bad news, I would
1:40:45always go there.
1:40:46>> But do you know that South Afric But do
1:40:47you know there's nine provinces in South
1:40:49Africa
1:40:50>> and six of the nine provinces, this is
1:40:53something that was written by the South
1:40:54African Police Service. I'll even show
1:40:56you the names. Please remind me of all
1:40:58of this before I forget.
1:40:59>> I'm going to write this down.
1:41:00>> Please. The South African Police
1:41:02Service. They say police province,
1:41:04right?
1:41:05>> Of the nine provinces, six of the
1:41:07provinces have Nigerians as kingpins.
1:41:10That also speaks of a problem. And I
1:41:11want you guys to also be honest with
1:41:13yourselves about that. Six out of nine
1:41:15is a problem. Look
1:41:17>> and and I always say is that, you know,
1:41:20I've always even seen Nigerians in in
1:41:22Nigeria complaining that, you know, when
1:41:24they get deported from other countries
1:41:25besides South Africa, when they get um
1:41:27held for drugs, they also complain.
1:41:29They're like, "These people are giving
1:41:30us a bad name." And I was saying it's a
1:41:33conversation you guys must also have.
1:41:35Why are they going to other places and
1:41:37selling drugs and committing crimes and
1:41:39all of these things? It's not giving
1:41:40your country a good name. And that's not
1:41:42something that you also want as a
1:41:44reputation.
1:41:45>> You know, there are criminals
1:41:49>> in all societies
1:41:52>> and those who are criminals
1:41:54>> and who have a criminal mind
1:41:56>> will carry their criminal behavior
1:41:58irrespective of where they come from.
1:42:00>> I don't deny that. But let me tell you,
1:42:02South African criminals are in South
1:42:03Africa. That's the difference because
1:42:06South African criminals are in South
1:42:07Africa. I'm not saying that they don't
1:42:09go to other places, but they don't go to
1:42:11other places in numbers giving the
1:42:13country a bad name. That's where your
1:42:15problem is, is that Nigerians are
1:42:17outside in other countries committing
1:42:19crimes and giving the country a bad
1:42:20name.
1:42:20>> But Nigerians do business all over the
1:42:23world. We are entrepreneurs
1:42:26by the bad people. That's the point
1:42:28unfortunately. So this is the other this
1:42:31is the lady that is apparently me,
1:42:33right?
1:42:34>> You can see her name, right?
1:42:36>> Yes.
1:42:36>> Do you see who she is?
1:42:37>> Who is Rafi Jera? Is that right?
1:42:40>> Who is she?
1:42:42>> She's I don't know who she is either,
1:42:43but apparently she's me.
1:42:45>> Right. And what did she say?
1:42:46>> She's the one that say she's dated a
1:42:47Nigerian. She would cheat with a Niger.
1:42:49Listen to
1:42:49>> Oh, I see.
1:42:56>> Oh, I see. I need to show it to the
1:42:59camera.
1:43:01>> Yeah.
1:43:02>> So you can see who owns the
1:43:03>> So you've never dated a Nigerian
1:43:05>> in my life? No.
1:43:06>> I love Nigerian people.
1:43:07>> I've never You see that's her
1:43:09>> man.
1:43:10>> So they started saying that's me a man.
1:43:13>> You've never actually did that with a
1:43:15Nigerian man?
1:43:17>> And I'm married now. So that's never
1:43:19going to happen anyway.
1:43:22How long do you intend to continue with
1:43:28March and March? Number one. Number two,
1:43:33when you say your main fight is with
1:43:36government, it's with government not
1:43:38doing not um managing your borders.
1:43:41>> Yeah.
1:43:42>> It's not with the individuals.
1:43:44>> Yeah.
1:43:45>> Are you planning to turn March March
1:43:47into a political
1:43:49>> into a political group? Never. You're
1:43:51not planning to turn it and maybe run.
1:43:52>> No, let me tell you. Let me tell you. I
1:43:55can't wait to go back to normal life if
1:43:57my life will ever be normal. I'm tired.
1:43:59This thing is tiring.
1:44:00>> So, how do we stop this thing from
1:44:01recurring? Cuz this is not the first
1:44:03time. You know what? We stop. This has
1:44:05been going on. You know how we stop it.
1:44:07We have a we're going to deal with
1:44:09governments. The government that's going
1:44:11to stop it. And we will deal with the
1:44:12government. They'll have to stop it
1:44:14because at the end of the day, if they
1:44:15don't stop it, this will continue like a
1:44:17cycle. the government.
1:44:19>> But this happens and it always happens
1:44:20close to elections.
1:44:21>> Nah,
1:44:23>> you don't think so?
1:44:24>> No, I don't think so.
1:44:25>> But records show.
1:44:26>> Unfortunately, I think that um it's it's
1:44:30been a bad uh thing where people use it
1:44:33to to get into power where they make
1:44:35promises when when they're in power,
1:44:37they forget about the people. That's why
1:44:38I'm not going to the political party.
1:44:40>> Um because this is not about politics
1:44:42for me. This is ju just about making
1:44:44sure that South Africa is a good country
1:44:46that people can still have a country as
1:44:49South Africans after everything after
1:44:51every politicians are done milking it
1:44:53and done um stripping it apart and
1:44:56selling it off to all foreigners in the
1:44:57world. It still is a country that South
1:45:00African children can have. So Nigerians,
1:45:04Malawians,
1:45:06Zimbabweans, they have nothing to fear
1:45:08on the 30th of June with regards to a
1:45:12massive program.
1:45:16>> I'm just asking. I mean, I think you
1:45:17need to say whether yes or no because
1:45:20this is a great
1:45:21>> Let me let me tell you something about
1:45:22about hurting people. You don't issue a
1:45:25date for hurting people if you want to
1:45:26hurt them. Do
1:45:28>> you understand? or you can issue a date
1:45:29and all they did was issue dates and say
1:45:31please people should go and those who
1:45:33want to take I've explained the dates
1:45:35I've explained the dates and that's what
1:45:36I'm saying but what I'm saying is if we
1:45:38wanted to hurt people we've been in
1:45:41existence for a year people would have
1:45:43been long been hurt it's not going to
1:45:46take the 30th of
1:45:47>> but there was not a date
1:45:48>> the date is not about hurting people
1:45:50that's the point
1:45:51>> no I know but what I'm what that's what
1:45:52I'm reconfirming are you saying that
1:45:56>> Nigerians Malawians all The migrants in
1:45:58South Africa need not worry about a a
1:46:02massive program, violent program on the
1:46:0630th. Violence is never on our plans.
1:46:08>> But we do want people in the country
1:46:10legally to leave
1:46:12>> and if they don't and if they're not
1:46:14able to make them leave no but 30th of
1:46:17June is what? Next week
1:46:19>> I've explained the 30th of June
1:46:20deadline. Okay.
1:46:21>> Right. So you do want them to leave but
1:46:23not on 30th of June. There's no sane
1:46:25person in their head who thinks by the
1:46:2730th of June all illegal immigrants
1:46:29would have been gone.
1:46:30>> Well, that is that's the fear that I'm
1:46:32just saying just you have to understand
1:46:36we are done but you have to understand
1:46:37our people. Please understand I I'm not
1:46:40I'm not running away from anything that
1:46:42you're saying. Thank you so much we've
1:46:44had you've you've really given me a time
1:46:46to speak. You've listened to me. You've
1:46:49you've disagreed with me but you haven't
1:46:51been rude about it. Absolutely not.
1:46:53You've been very kind and I appreciate
1:46:55that you came all the way just to give
1:46:57me an ear. Right now I'm saying to you
1:47:00there's not a single African person that
1:47:02I wouldn't want to see going to fight
1:47:04their government because what I see
1:47:06happening in Africa is is horrible. The
1:47:09conditions that African people are
1:47:11allowing their government to put them
1:47:12through is horrible. What I would like
1:47:15ideally is that once South Africa goes
1:47:18back to laws because I keep highlighting
1:47:21what the laws of the country say and
1:47:23unfortunately South Africa has been
1:47:25going on being unlawful for a very long
1:47:27time and that's why we are re inviting
1:47:31the law into our country reminding our
1:47:34government of what the law says.
1:47:35Unfortunately, not everyone's going to
1:47:37be happy with with us. Unfortunately, we
1:47:40can't control everyone, but we will try
1:47:42our best to control what we can. And if
1:47:45it means making sure that there's no
1:47:47violence, trust and believe me, we've
1:47:49got extra security that we've paid for
1:47:51on our own to make sure that they go and
1:47:54protect businesses and all of these
1:47:56things cuz we don't want any of that.
1:47:58We've been through 2021. And in 2021, I
1:48:01can assure you, I was the first person
1:48:03to go out into my community and start
1:48:05cleaning up the the community and tell
1:48:07them just how wrong it is that we had
1:48:09looting and all of these things. I'm not
1:48:11for that
1:48:12>> unless I'm not for that. You you won't
1:48:15find me in those places, in those
1:48:16spaces.
1:48:18>> That is why I'm always in boardrooms
1:48:20fighting this issue of illegal
1:48:21immigration. What I do want though is
1:48:24for our African brothers and sisters to
1:48:27respect our country because currently
1:48:29they don't do that. That is the honest
1:48:31truth. They don't respect us. They don't
1:48:33respect our country. You must see them
1:48:35on Facebook tormenting me, tormenting
1:48:37South Africans, telling us they're not
1:48:39going anywhere. This is their country.
1:48:40Mandela gave it to them. This all of
1:48:42these things. You don't want to do that.
1:48:44It's not fair on us, right? Because
1:48:46you're placing the burden on us and they
1:48:49get away scot-free to do whatever they
1:48:51want. So we're saying responsibility
1:48:53lies on both South Africans and foreign
1:48:55nationals to behave themselves in South
1:48:57Africa. Let us deal with the issue of
1:48:59migration. If you're coming to the
1:49:00country, come in through the legal
1:49:02routes and the right way so that when we
1:49:04go to your country, we also feel
1:49:06comfortable knowing that we're
1:49:07respecting your country's laws because
1:49:09you don't want us to come to your
1:49:10country and do as we want and and just
1:49:12behave anyhow. That's not fair. But
1:49:16ideally the model is for Africa to work
1:49:20for all Africans. We have children now
1:49:23that deserve to have a functioning
1:49:25Africa. We're Africans and black people.
1:49:28We don't glorify just our skin color. We
1:49:30think like people who want to to improve
1:49:33the continent. We behave like people who
1:49:35want to We can't have dictators every
1:49:37single time. We've got 90 year olds
1:49:38sitting there running the country while
1:49:40people are being beaten up and hit.
1:49:42Human rights must not only apply in
1:49:44South Africa. Human rights must apply
1:49:46everywhere in Africa. African leaders
1:49:48must not sit there in those Panaffrican
1:49:50parliaments and and discuss mines and
1:49:53all of they must discuss real life
1:49:55African people problems. How are they
1:49:58making um their people live better? The
1:50:00infrastructure, the roads, how they
1:50:02improving their lives. And I'm so
1:50:04annoyed that we get to spend so much
1:50:05time discussing this issue over real
1:50:08other I mean I was so annoyed that
1:50:10there's children in Nigeria being
1:50:12kidnapped. I want to be there to help
1:50:14Nigerians to say we can't have whatever
1:50:17boo haram orever terrorizing the what is
1:50:20what is the Nigerian government doing
1:50:21about that? They can't go on as if it's
1:50:23business as usual while the children
1:50:25getting kidnapped. that that can't
1:50:28we as the citizens of Africa really need
1:50:31to hold our governments accountable and
1:50:34if we continue to fight each other we're
1:50:35never going to get to that phase
1:50:38>> thank you my sister I tried to I've
1:50:41practiced your name
1:50:46it's been a pleasure talking to you
1:50:49later no it's okay thank you for giving
1:50:51up your time thank you I appreciate

About this transcript

This page contains the full transcript of Afrophobia: South Africa's Migrant Crisis Explained | Exclusive Interview with Jacinta Ngobese-Zuma by Nigeria Info FM, generated from the public captions YouTube serves with the video. The transcript has 20,766 words across 3,200 segments, with the original timestamps preserved so you can click any line to jump to that moment in the embedded player.

What you can do with it

Use the transcript to take notes, quote the speaker, build a study guide, generate a summary with ChatGPT or Claude via the YouTube Summary tool, or export it as a timed subtitle file with YouTube to SRT. You can also re-open it in the transcriber to translate the transcript into 100+ languages.

Free YouTube transcript tool

YouTube2Text is a free YouTube transcript generator — no signup, no daily limit. Paste any YouTube link and get the full transcript instantly, with timestamps, click-to-jump, translation to 100+ languages, AI prompts for ChatGPT, Claude, and Gemini, and exports to TXT, SRT, VTT, or Markdown.