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African tradwives are fine, say Gardaí | TLG EP #83 — Transcript

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0:00Welcome back everybody to another
0:01episode of the Long Game Podcast with
0:03myself Ben Scallan lurking in the
0:06darkness like Gollum and my esteemed
0:08co-host Jason Osborne who is back in
0:11Poland his new home. How are you Jason?
0:14>> Good dwelling in the light in contrast
0:17to you. And I will say for those who uh
0:20celebrate, which should be everyone, but
0:22it isn't a happy feast day of Our Lady
0:24of Knock. Um Mayo just can't can't stop
0:28winning these days, as they say.
0:31>> Although that one started a couple
0:32hundred years ago.
0:33>> Of course, we would have to mention that
0:35as the resident uh angel of light. The
0:39people's two
0:40>> abs of the screen right now. It looks
0:42like when somebody's conscience is in a
0:44cartoon and you've got the like
0:45[laughter]
0:46the dark evil figure and the light one,
0:48you know, that's you and I mean it's
0:49quite evident who's who. So, uh, with
0:53that said, h before we kick off with our
0:56topics, I will have to urge people if
0:58you have any questions for us and you're
0:59a Gripped subscriber to go to
1:01grypt.equests.
1:03The link to that should be on the screen
1:04for those who are viewing. And we will
1:07be answering viewer questions at the end
1:09of this episode. So, make sure to stay
1:11tuned to the end for that. We might have
1:13answered your question potentially. Uh,
1:15and also if you have not subscribed to
1:18this channel, then please do so because
1:19we don't ask you to do that enough. Uh,
1:21so for this week, we're going to be
1:23talking about the very unfortunate
1:25tragic crash that claimed five lives
1:28over the weekend and the implications of
1:31that as far as youth joy writing and
1:34delinquency and what that says about our
1:36culture. We're going to be talking about
1:37uh freedom of information materials that
1:39were released in Melee last week which
1:41found that at least at one point the
1:43Guardia were being advised when speaking
1:46to Nigerian households that they should
1:49speak to the man first because usually
1:53the women want the men to speak for them
1:55and that they should seek the men's
1:58permission essentially before talking to
2:00the women. and and a lot more findings
2:02than that, but uh some very interesting
2:05intercultural training there. For
2:07starters, do we want to kick off with
2:10the very unfortunate crash given that
2:12that is the most topical and recent of
2:15the stories and the the various lives
2:16that were lost in that incident?
2:18>> Yeah. So for people who haven't been
2:20tuned into the news over the past couple
2:22of days, a quick recap and this is
2:23directly from the guards. It's
2:25obviously, you know, media outlets get
2:27uh the sort of situation releases from
2:30the guards when they happen. Um so on
2:35the 16th of August, which was uh it was
2:38yesterday morning, sorry. Guardian and A
2:40Thai were started investigating a fatal
2:44road traffic collision that occurred on
2:46the M9 northbound um in the early hours
2:51of that morning. So they were alerted to
2:53a vehicle traveling southbound on the
2:55northbound carriageway. So obviously
2:57heading the wrong way down the down the
2:59road um where it a head-on collision
3:03occurred with a car traveling in the
3:05correct direction um on the road. Now,
3:07that's notable because there was a very
3:09similar incident just a couple of weeks
3:11ago. Car traveling the wrong way uh down
3:14the road in this latest incident.
3:17Anyway, um the updated sit the most
3:21updated situation I understand is that
3:23there were five teenage males in the car
3:27traveling the wrong way down the road.
3:29Um all of them died in the collision. Um
3:33the the occupants of the second vehicle,
3:35there were three women and a male child.
3:39Um and they all remain in hospital
3:41receiving treatment for serious
3:42injuries. So three women and a child uh
3:46injured by a car traveling the wrong way
3:48down the road and all the occupants of
3:51that car traveling the wrong way down
3:52the road were killed in the collision.
3:54Five of them. So the Irish Times has
3:56interesting reporting this morning.
3:58their headline and again this from the
3:59Irish Times. Five masked teenagers
4:02killed in M9 crash are suspected of
4:05local crime spree. So I'll read a little
4:07bit from this article because as I say
4:09the situation people sometimes get
4:11annoyed when you're maybe not as direct
4:14as they'd like you to be in talking
4:15about a situation that is currently
4:17being investigated by the guards is
4:19because there's very strict rules around
4:21how you talk about these things and how
4:23you write write about these things and
4:24report about them at the time. So, you
4:27know, people obviously have all of their
4:28theories and things and we'll be getting
4:30into a broader discussion, but for the
4:33moment, um, what the Irish Times have up
4:36about the situation is that Guardi are
4:39investigating,
4:40um, this they're still in situ in
4:43investigating the situation. They
4:45initially found four remains and then
4:47the remains of a fifth were found when
4:49the wreckage of the car was moved. Um,
4:51and again, these were all, it says here,
4:53this is from the Irish Times, the damage
4:55to the suspected stolen BMW that they
4:58were traveling in was so significant
4:59that emergency responders weren't able
5:01to access the remains of the dead for
5:03hours. So, I'll just read a little bit
5:05more. The male teenagers, some of whom
5:07were related to each other, were wearing
5:09balaclavas or were otherwise masked when
5:11they died on the M9 at about 3:00 a.m.
5:13The deceased were aligned to a large
5:15group known to Guardi around the Carlo
5:18Culair region. Guardi have reports of
5:20males believed to be teenagers seen
5:22trying to break into houses and cars
5:24parked outside homes in a thigh county
5:27the hours before the fatal crash.
5:29Guardian believed those males spotted in
5:31a thigh were the same group later killed
5:33on the motorway. Um so just a final bit
5:37I'll read because then we can no need to
5:40check what's been reported anymore. The
5:42Irish Times understands the black BMW
5:44was driven down the M9 in the wrong
5:46direction, speeding into oncoming
5:48traffic in two stints in the early hours
5:50of Sunday. Guardian in a patrol car had
5:52earlier requested the vehicle to stop at
5:54about 2:00 a.m. in a thigh, but the
5:55driver sped off. Um, so we sort of know
6:00how the story went from there. They
6:02obviously uh weren't stopped and they
6:04collided with the car. And as I say,
6:06it's understood that that car um was the
6:09other car was on its way to Dublin
6:11airport. I think they were heading off
6:12on holiday, some of the occupants of the
6:14car. So, an absolute tragedy uh for
6:18them, obviously, a completely avoidable
6:20tragedy because they were driving down
6:23one of the main roads in the country uh
6:25safely on their way to on the way on
6:27their way to the airport. um when five
6:30lads in, as the Irish Times reports,
6:34uh suspected stolen BMW crash head
6:38crashes headlong into the car, uh and
6:40kills all of those occupants. So,
6:44like where where do you do you want to
6:46take it away from there, Ben? Like, it's
6:48uh it's just so like it's also tiresome.
6:52It really is.
6:53>> Yeah. Uh tiresome. And
6:57you know, the thing you're supposed to
6:59say as a Christian and as a decent
7:02person is obviously God bless them. Even
7:05the the people who were apparently in
7:08the wrong here who caused the entire
7:10thing by acting in a reckless way and
7:14they were only young fellas. So God, you
7:17know, God rest our souls and like we all
7:20make mistakes and blah blah blah. And
7:22you can, you know, you can say all of
7:23that and that's true. like I am a
7:25Christian. I do believe everything I
7:27just said.
7:29But also,
7:31you kind of have to at a certain point
7:36accept that if you play stupid games,
7:39you win stupid prizes. And the this sort
7:42of outrageous
7:44>> dangerous carry-on like evidently when
7:47you're driving down the road on the
7:49wrong side of the road,
7:50>> you don't really care about the safety
7:53of anyone around you. You you aren't
7:55interested. If it had been the other
7:57situation where they had killed
7:59everybody in the opposite car and and
8:01they themselves had survived,
8:04do you think they would have cared? Do
8:06you think people who drive around in
8:07balaclavas terrorizing people and
8:10blatantly violating every law are
8:14extremely interested and concerned about
8:16the well-being of those around them? So,
8:19you behave like a reckless, lawless
8:23lunatic and unfortunately uh sometimes
8:26terrible things will happen to you and
8:28uh you know I don't want that for
8:30people. You know that's a terrible way
8:32for a life to end. But it really is
8:36uh tiresome that so many law-abiding,
8:39normal, decent people have to live under
8:43the tyranny of hoodlams and
8:47>> thugs.
8:49Yeah. Know I'm genuinely sick of it. I
8:51mean there was a statement as well uh uh
8:54the guarded commissioner Justin Kelly
8:56released a statement after the uh after
8:58the incident and you know I think for
9:00the guarded commissioner to directly and
9:02this came in from the guarded press
9:03office to directly release a statement
9:04about an incident that doesn't happen
9:06all the time like this as we all know
9:08unfortunately is crime happening all the
9:10time in Ireland and the guarded
9:11commissioner doesn't comment on all of
9:12it but he commented on this one and he
9:15said you know his thoughts were with
9:16those injured in the morning's collision
9:17on the M9 and he said I thought it was
9:19very interesting the way reframed it. He
9:21said, "My thoughts are with those
9:22injured in this morning's collision on
9:24the M9. These family members were
9:26traveling innocently when they were
9:27struck by a vehicle being driven the
9:28wrong way down the motorway. This
9:30horrific incident following the recent
9:32collision on the M50 shows how
9:34irresponsible and dangerous driving on
9:36the wrong side of the motorway is. That
9:38of course should be self-evident. But
9:40what makes this reckless behavior even
9:41more appalling is that in some cases
9:44cases it is being done for social media
9:46likes regardless of the potentially
9:48devastating impact it might have on
9:50innocent people and themselves. So he
9:53was very much taking a particular
9:54position on that in his statement. There
9:56is clear it's absolutely clear and I
9:58think he's right to and there's so
10:02there's so much here. What annoys me
10:04more than anything is that you do have a
10:06serious tendency among NGO and activist
10:10types in this country to advocate for a
10:13sort of soft on crime type of approach
10:15or a purely rehabilitative approach to
10:17crime. And it's like they're like
10:19because you know presumably it's mean to
10:21be to be tough with prisoners and things
10:23like that. Um but all you end up doing
10:26then is enabling
10:29as you say the people who are essent
10:31essentially out there uh willingly
10:34engaging in dangerous
10:36criminal activity uh terrorizing people
10:40who are trying to live normal lives and
10:42do the right thing and like this is just
10:45a prime example of that. It's like
10:48if they're known to according to the
10:50Irish Times reporting known to be
10:51connected to a large group. It's like
10:53why does it get to that stage? Why does
10:54it get to the stage where you know all
10:57of these people are up to no good can be
10:59aware that there was stuff going on? The
11:01Guardian can apparently have encountered
11:04uh a sort of stolen vehicle earlier in
11:06the evening as was the case with the
11:08previous uh incident if I recall
11:10correctly. Nevertheless, off they go
11:12down the street. And you know, this is
11:14where you do come back as well to that
11:16case that if I remember correctly again
11:18is currently continuing. The guard are
11:21being charged with sort of dangerous
11:23driving in pursuit of um some criminals
11:26on a previous occasion. So it's like
11:28everything is stacked in the wrong
11:30direction and this country would be much
11:32better served and all the you know law
11:34abiding decent people in it by coming
11:36down like a bloody hammer on these
11:38fellas. Um, and I have some there's so
11:42sorry to interrupt, but there's an
11:43interesting statistic here which may
11:45shed light on the situation and the
11:49mistake that we've been making because
11:50you're absolutely right that trying to
11:54say the the the statement that we knew
11:58these individuals were dangerous, the
12:00Gard were already aware of them and yet
12:03they were still running around causing
12:06havoc all over the country is itself the
12:09problem. And in Sweden, lovely liberal
12:12progressive kip that is Sweden for years
12:16they had this nice huggy uh feely
12:21European Scandinavian policy of giving
12:26juvenile offenders very lenient
12:29sentences or no sentences at all and not
12:32treating them like adults because oh
12:34sure he's only a young fella and we have
12:36to give him a second chance. we don't
12:37want to ruin his life by giving him a
12:39criminal conviction so early in his
12:41teens and we all make mistakes and this
12:44sort of very uh lacks mindset and the
12:47end result of that just a couple of
12:49years ago is that it turned out that 80%
12:53of individuals arrested in Stockholm
12:57were minors. uh they were actually
13:01people under the age of 18, many as
13:03young as 14 being apprehended for gun
13:06violence. And essentially what was
13:09happening was criminals, serious adults,
13:12grownup criminals, knew that if they
13:17were to get arrested for gun crime or
13:18for drug dealing or whatever it is, that
13:21they would get into serious trouble
13:22because they're an adult. But the kids
13:25are going to be given leniency. They're
13:27going to be given a slap on the wrist.
13:28they're going to be given some stupid
13:30youth diversion program where they go to
13:33a football club or something and so they
13:36would effectively be using kids as child
13:40soldiers to do their dirty work. So in
13:42the streets of a western European
13:45country, you'd have young fellows
13:47shooting it out in the street on behest
13:50at the behest of their criminal
13:52overlords and knowing that nobody
13:55involved is going to get any kind of
13:56serious sentence and uh throwing their
13:59lives away. And so now they've had to
14:01reverse that policy and actually start
14:03punishing young people in a serious way
14:06when they do. When you commit an adult
14:08crime, you should get an adult
14:09punishment. That's my view. If you're
14:11old enough
14:12>> to hold a gun and to shoot a gun or to
14:15rob a shop or to behave like like I'll
14:18put it this way. If you have not learned
14:20that robbing a shop or robbing a car or
14:23driving down the the road over the speed
14:27limit the wrong way is bad by the age of
14:3013 or 14. You should have learned that
14:33by then. Like you there is no
14:36rehabilitating this person.
14:38uh they need to go to prison and be uh
14:42ostracized from society from the rest of
14:45us who are actually just trying to be
14:47decent citizens and get along.
14:50>> They're like I have no problem with the
14:51idea of rehabilitation but it's just
14:52like that unfortunately has come at the
14:55cost of actually you know doing out of
14:57punishment which is the whole point uh
14:59of uh of the the system traditionally. I
15:02mean, one thing I've just been thinking
15:04a lot about recently is how we moderns
15:06have absolutely no stomach. We have no
15:10we have no CS Lewis described it better
15:13obviously than anyone else where he said
15:15that our modern project had created men
15:17without chests. And what he meant by
15:19that was you have like you know in
15:21traditional thought you have the head
15:23which is where all of the thinking and
15:24all of the uh sort of principles come
15:26from and then you have the stomach which
15:28is where all of the virtues that give
15:30you um uh sort of the the courage and
15:33the guts nearly to you know to embody
15:36these principles and to impose them upon
15:38the world come from. And he said those
15:40two things have been severed from each
15:41other in this day and age. Um and so men
15:43without sort of chests where these
15:45things meet had been created. And I I do
15:48feel like that very much sums up modern
15:49man. It's this idea that, you know, our
15:52our leaders and our policy makers and
15:55all these walk around with these sort of
15:56vague notions that it's uncchristian to,
15:59you know, treat prisoners harshly. It's
16:02uncchristian to do this. And it's like
16:04in being kind to prisoners, they're
16:07incredibly cruel to everyone else. And
16:09they never think that way. And it's like
16:11there is nothing
16:14in Christian thought that would say that
16:16you can't ensure that people receive
16:19just punishment for the crimes they've
16:21committed. And that's certainly not
16:23doled out in Ireland these days. I would
16:25say what the Christian temperament or
16:27the the the Christian understands is
16:30that no one is beyond redemption and you
16:32should pray for the people who even you
16:34you you're least likely to want to pray
16:36for and you should always offer them the
16:38hand that you know might help them uh
16:41onto a better life should they turn to
16:43look for it but that does not come at
16:46the expense of their punishment because
16:48like that's just the way the world
16:49works. Um, and as I say, these people
16:51with vague notions going around in their
16:53heads like God be very uncchristian to
16:55like, you know, have like 40 year long
16:58sentences and things like that. Uh, and
17:00it's like, no, it wouldn't. If someone's
17:02done something that requires that, give
17:03them that longer. Um, and I think that
17:08like Prime I saw this as well. I saw
17:10this just this morning when I was
17:11reading the news around the same time.
17:14If I'm not mixing up my dates and times,
17:16I don't think it was because it was
17:17reported on yesterday and they said the
17:18early hours of the morning.
17:21Here's another one. An investigation is
17:23underway after a guarded patrol car was
17:25rammed by a stolen vehicle in the early
17:27hours of this morning in County Dublin.
17:29So that was the early hours of the same
17:31morning that the crash on the M9
17:33happened. This incident happened when
17:35Guardy on patrol responded to reports of
17:37dangerous driving on the M50 near
17:39Leopardstown at around 2 a.m. Guardy
17:42came across the stolen car at Glen Karen
17:44Drive. The Gallopson signaled for the
17:46vehicle to stop. The stolen car failed
17:48to failed to stop and rammed the
17:50official guard patrol vehicle. That was
17:53happening at around the same time that
17:55these lads were driving the wrong way
17:58down the M9 and crashed into another car
18:00and sent all those people to hospital
18:01and got them got themselves all killed.
18:04Happening just a couple weeks after
18:05another car drove the wrong way down a
18:07motorway uh to calamitous effect. And
18:10it's like why do you think these things
18:12are happening more often? It didn't used
18:13to be the case that so many people were
18:14driving the wrong way down motorways or
18:16driving dangerously or driving stolen
18:18cars. It's happening because bad people
18:22are being emboldened by the fact that
18:24there are no real consequences for their
18:26actions. And the only way you get
18:29>> it really is that simple. Uh and you
18:33know George Orwell said that some ideas
18:35are so stupid that only an intellectual
18:37could believe them. And we have these
18:41people who are trying to reinvent the
18:44wheel and think outside the box in
18:46interesting ways and it turns out they
18:49are morons and actually don't know what
18:51they're doing. Like you you keep getting
18:53these sorts of uh what if we don't
18:57punish criminals and put them in jail?
18:59Maybe crime were astroturf pitches in
19:02deprived areas. That'll stop crime. And
19:04it's like, no, you stop crime by putting
19:06the bloody criminals into prison and
19:07making it uncomfortable for them. You
19:09know, maybe if we make it easier to get
19:11drugs, people will take drugs less. You
19:14know, maybe let's let's try some
19:16counterintuitive thinking there. And
19:17then you try it in America and you try
19:19it in Canada and you try it in all these
19:22different places and you see the exact
19:23opposite again and again and again and
19:25again. And you know, you look at
19:28somewhere like El Salvador, and I'm not,
19:31you know, I don't I'm not going to um
19:34try and act like El Salvador is a direct
19:36comparison with our situation or that
19:38we're anywhere near as bad as them, but
19:41that actually almost bolsters the
19:43argument because they were far worse
19:45than us. Everybody knows that El
19:46Salvador as recently as a few years ago
19:49was the murder capital of the world and
19:53it it was like at least top three. It
19:55was way up there. MS13 gang members with
19:59face tattoos. And then the government
20:03opened a massive super prison with a
20:06capacity for tens of thousands of
20:08people. And they just went around and
20:11every criminal with face tattoos who was
20:14extorting people and robbing people and
20:17shooting people, they took them and they
20:21put them in a cage. And the problem the
20:25the the problem solved itself. The crime
20:27rate plummeted. The murder rate
20:29plummeted. And now it is the safest
20:31country in the Western Hemisphere. Else
20:34you would be safer now walking through
20:36El Salvador than you would be in most
20:38American cities. Sorry. You're saying
20:40>> what's absolut No, not at all. Your
20:42point is well made. I think what's
20:43absolutely incredible though is the way
20:45it's covered again in the media and by
20:47the academics and the western world who
20:49look at this and they're like, "Oh my
20:51gosh, but like look at the human rights
20:53of the prisoners." And it's like like do
20:56you guys not care at all about the fact
20:57that the standard of living has been
20:59raised for your average person living
21:01there uh immeasurably by do you not care
21:03about the fact that the guy who's done
21:04this his popularity soared because of
21:07his appro his his pursuit of this
21:09policy? It's like they their moral
21:12compass is inverted.
21:15They have been possessed by anti-human
21:19ideas. I would put it I would put it
21:20that way. Um that that they convey under
21:23the guise of compassion for the like and
21:26this is where it is anti-Christian
21:27because it's the guise of compassion for
21:30the marginalized. So in this instance
21:32the marginalized is the prisoner and
21:34they're like okay well the prisoner's
21:36dignity is being deprived here by these
21:38circumstances. And it's like, well,
21:40first of all, no, it's not because
21:42detention itself is actually a pretty
21:43humane uh obviously there's ways to do
21:45inhumane detention, but detention
21:48itself, there's nothing inherently
21:50undignified about that. But it's also
21:52the case that
21:55there's no reason why someone put into
21:58that circumstance can't turn their life
22:01around. There's no reason why someone
22:02put into those circumstances
22:05is deprived of the opportunity to do
22:07better in future. The only way they
22:08won't is if they commit to not doing
22:10better in future. Um, and in the
22:13meantime, everyone,
22:14>> and by the way, just to reinforce the
22:17point about how experts generally are
22:20morons, so-called experts who don't know
22:22what they're talking about, before
22:24Boule, the El Salvadorian leader, before
22:26he launched his war on crime and decided
22:29to start mass arresting people, his
22:32experts came to him, many of his
22:34economists, and they said, "Listen, Mr.
22:36President, we understand what you're
22:38trying to do. We understand that this is
22:40important, but we have to caution you
22:43that if you do this, the economy will
22:45take a substantial hit because
22:49unfortunately, nobody likes crime.
22:51Nobody likes the proceeds of crime. But
22:52it is a fact that much of the money that
22:56is being taken by these gangs through
22:58their illicit activities are ending up
23:00back in the white economy and are
23:02actually uh causing many businesses to
23:06stay afloat that would otherwise go
23:08under. And so they were estimating that
23:11there would be a significant hit to the
23:14economy and that the country's GDP would
23:16take a massive nose dive if you were to
23:18clean up the crime problem overnight.
23:20and he said, "I don't care because your
23:24ability to live without fear of getting
23:27shot in the face or robbed is way more
23:29important than your GDP. So, I don't
23:32care if there's an economic hit. We can
23:34fix the economy later. We can't fix
23:35getting shot in the head later. So, I'm
23:37doing it." He did it
23:39>> and the economy grew by 5% almost
23:43instantly. And the reason is if you are
23:47confident as a business owner that
23:49nobody's going to come and extort me,
23:51nobody's going to try and shake me down.
23:53I'm not going to get mugged on my way
23:55home. Then people start to have more of
23:57an economic libido. They start making
24:00more. They start wanting to earn more
24:01because they know they can keep it at
24:03the end. And so the economy booms as a
24:06result. So they were wrong just like
24:09they're always wrong. Anybody who comes
24:12to you and tells you, "Oh, no. The the
24:15solution to crime isn't to take bad
24:17people and put them in jail," is an
24:19idiot. And they don't know what they're
24:21talking about. And they're coming up
24:22with these insane halfb like the the
24:25what's what's amazing to me about that
24:26country as a case study
24:29>> is how simple it is. You know, you we
24:31think like, oh, these people will tell
24:33you, oh, these are very complex issues
24:35and, you know, we we need to have like a
24:37really serious discussion about what do
24:39we do and let's get in our expert panels
24:42and committees and we'll talk about, you
24:44know, talk to psychologists and maybe
24:47you take the bad guys and you
24:49incarcerate them. Problem solved. That's
24:53literally all it takes. And we used to
24:56understand this. We forgot it a couple
24:58of years ago. the country's gone to hell
25:00in a hand cart and if you suggest why
25:03don't we go back to the thing that
25:05worked that we always used to do you're
25:07people act like that's crazy and oh
25:09you're you're being overly simplistic.
25:11It really isn't. That really is the
25:13solution. It's that easy.
25:15>> Liberal charity is an absolutely
25:17terrible thing uh in the sense that
25:22who it ought to be directed towards is
25:24generally faulty. what it ought to be
25:28aiming at is generally faulty.
25:30Everything about it is faulty. And so
25:31generally you end up with victims rather
25:33than anyone who's actually benefited by
25:35it. In this instance, obviously being
25:37the case that it's always the prisoner
25:38side, never the people who are the
25:40victims of the crime side. And you do
25:42have that this narrative playing out.
25:44>> I don't care if rapists and murderers
25:46and thieves are having an uncomfortable
25:48time in prison. It reminds me of uh you
25:51know that psychopath Anders Breivik in
25:53Norway.
25:54>> Yeah. Yeah. and how a couple of years
25:56back he was threatening to go on a
25:58hunger strike because he said that the
26:02video games he had in prison were too
26:04juvenile for his liking and he wanted he
26:07only had a PlayStation one and he wanted
26:10uh PlayStation 2 uh and and more more
26:14upto-ate games because other prisoners
26:16had it and this kind of thing. And first
26:18of all, there's something comical about
26:20being one of the most hated men in the
26:22world and threatening to go on a hunger
26:24strike. That's kind of funny. And also,
26:27this guy killed about 80 people, close
26:30to 80 people, and most of them were
26:32kids. I don't care if you rot in a
26:35dungeon forever. Like, what are you
26:37talking about making demands like I care
26:40about your plight? And that's the way I
26:42feel about all of these people. like
26:43he's obviously an extreme example, but
26:46you rob pensioners, you punch uh you
26:50know, kids in the face who are just
26:52coming home from work and bully people.
26:54You you rob shops, you pray on the
26:57vulnerable, you're scum. Like, you
26:59deserve to go to jail. And I don't I'm
27:01not giving you Sky Sports in your cell.
27:04Like, you've done hell.
27:05>> So, I I don't mean No, not not the one.
27:09That was too harsh. Don't go to hell. go
27:11to heaven ideally if he can but you know
27:13I'm I'm being exuberant because this
27:15>> I know I know what you mean because but
27:17like it's it is a sort of issue that
27:19gets your blood pressure up because it's
27:21so egregious and like I want to come
27:24back to your economy point about why
27:25these expert like these experts put the
27:28economy above all else and like by all
27:30means you know maintaining the economy
27:32is important but it's not the most
27:34important thing and sometimes good
27:35things you have to do especially as
27:37leaders if they come in into conflict
27:39with what's good for the economy
27:40according to the experts. Well, so be it
27:42would be my take on. I know that I'd
27:44have all the centrist dads coming at me
27:46like, "Oh, you don't know how terrible
27:49poverty is." And you know, uh, anyone
27:52who says that sort of thing as a fan
27:53fanatic and it's like,
27:56no, that's really not how it is at all.
27:58It's just blind devotion to the economy.
28:01It's again something I've been thinking
28:03a lot about recently and um I think
28:05we'll probably get into it again a
28:06little bit later on in this episode but
28:08um yeah just to your point I suppose we
28:10close off this topic by saying like this
28:12is why in recent memory the idea that
28:16you can just do things has become so
28:18popular because El Salvador is a good
28:20example but you know in Ireland if some
28:24serious political alternative came along
28:26and genuinely it seemed as though they
28:29might be able to build like a bunch of
28:33new prisons and I know you know you've
28:35got the um uh labor supply issues around
28:40big infrastructure. I would say this is
28:43more pressing than Metroink. I would put
28:44it that way. The Metroink is an absolute
28:46like I would I think Dublin should have
28:48a metro. I think it's ridiculous that
28:49they've been talking about it for so
28:50long. But, you know, in a country with
28:52supply shortages and shortages of
28:54different things um that contribute to
28:58taking ages to actually get anything
29:00built, rather than Metro Link, I would
29:04be it would take more than that, but I
29:06would be like, okay, let's maybe set out
29:08a plan for building a bunch of new
29:10prisons. Let's really look at which
29:13aspects of our legislation
29:16hold back on
29:19tougher sentencing for criminals of the
29:21most severe kind. And I think it would
29:23be worth
29:25a lot of sacrifice actually to pursue
29:27those goals because I think it's heading
29:29in the direction that this is becoming a
29:31uh a noticeable thing for people. And I
29:33know the guard has come out and say well
29:35look at all these different kinds of
29:36crime falling like um theft or whatever
29:39this or that whatever it may be but the
29:41nature of crime is changing in Ireland.
29:43One of the things that one of the
29:45aspects of it is certainly complete lack
29:48of respect for authority like assaults
29:51on guard are rising incidents of ramming
29:54guard the cars is r are rising and it's
29:56like that sort of thing is very
29:59dangerous like once you start heading in
30:02that direction you're really heading
30:04down a bad path especially as you know I
30:07know they're doubling down on guarded
30:09recruitment and everything right now but
30:11it's like the general trend is one of
30:12guarded demoralization and uh them
30:15struggling to maintain their workforce.
30:17And it's like you've got to nip all of
30:20these things in the bud right now. And I
30:22do understand why guards would be
30:23demoralized because they do, you know,
30:25in many instances they do great work and
30:27they cash people and then I don't know,
30:29you got people going into the courts
30:31with hundreds of previous uh convictions
30:34and then, you know, they might get a
30:35suspended sentence still or they might
30:37get some laughable uh prison sentence
30:40and then back out they go. And it's like
30:42the whole system needs to be rejiged.
30:44And I genuinely think some party that
30:45made a decent serious effort of just
30:48doing something, you know. Well, I'd
30:50vote for them anyway.
30:53Well, speaking of Guardi, I suppose we
30:55should pivot to our next topic, which is
30:57that the uh Guardi at least at one point
31:02were advised to speak to the Nigerian
31:07male head of the household when
31:09interacting with the Nigerian community.
31:11And this is from FOI documents that I
31:15received from the GI official
31:19intercultural
31:21communication and understanding
31:25document. Now I will uh add a caution
31:30here or a caveat that I have not yet
31:33been able to ascertain if this document
31:36is still in use. Is this a document that
31:38the Guardia are currently using or it's
31:41not dated? They haven't told me yet. I
31:43asked them many days ago now and they
31:46said they're looking into it, but I
31:47haven't heard back since. Which by the
31:49way is weird given that it seems like
31:52you should be able to make one phone
31:53call and say, "Are we still using this?"
31:55Yes or no. And I don't know why that
31:57takes days to figure out, but anyway,
31:58that's neither here nor there. The point
32:00is, we don't know. But I don't think it
32:02matters. is I think it's kind of
32:03immaterial because
32:05they were using it at one point at the
32:07very least if they're not using it now.
32:09So this is official GA advice that they
32:12consider to be legitimate at some stage
32:15if not currently. And so uh it's
32:18entitled a short guide to cultural and
32:21diversity awareness. And what I find
32:23amazing about this we'll get into some
32:24more of the content. There's some
32:26amazing stuff here. But just that one
32:29alone about uh Nigerian the Nigerian
32:32community. It says here that um I'll
32:36pull up the exact quote. Oh yeah. It is
32:39not uncommon in Nigerian society for men
32:41to have more than one wife. Nigerian
32:44women often prefer their husbands to
32:47speak as the head of the household.
32:49Gardy making inquiries should if
32:51possible address the male head of the
32:53household before attempting to interview
32:55a female member of the family. And this
32:59from the same state that has been
33:01lecturing us about the patriarchy and
33:04about tradives. Apparently, Nigerian
33:08shadwives are fine. If you want to be a
33:11polygamist patriarch who
33:15uh insists upon being spoken to before
33:18the police try to address your wives, uh
33:21then that's perfectly legitimate. But if
33:23you're an Irish guy who thinks it's
33:26better if your woman stays home maybe
33:28and minds the kids while you work,
33:30you're an outrageous scumbag. Not when
33:33other communities do it, though. So,
33:35we'll we'll lead with that. There's more
33:36to it than that. But what do you think
33:38of that, Jason? For starters, as a as an
33:39appetizer,
33:42>> given that we're taking shots at kind of
33:44li liberal tendencies today, I do think
33:46it's always really funny. Things like
33:48this are always really funny. Liberalism
33:50is really funny with how it emboldens
33:53the worst excesses of the things that it
33:55typically condemns. And so it's like in
33:58yeah the Irish example it's it's a good
34:01example of that that you know we heard
34:03last week or two weeks ago now about the
34:05uh public awareness tradife campaign
34:07that the government is embarking on um
34:10and also it's sort of campaign against
34:12the manosphere and things like that and
34:15I'd say
34:17people who have been harmfully impacted
34:20like genuinely harmed to the point that
34:22like they do think that women are lesser
34:24than men and things like that if there's
34:26there's anyone like that in Ireland, I'd
34:27say you're looking at maybe 0.2% of the
34:31population at the most, 0.1% of the
34:33population. Like they certainly have no
34:35popular foothold. Um, but nevertheless,
34:38this is a huge thing that Irish society
34:40has to stamp out. Then in the meantime,
34:42the population soarses by tens of
34:45thousands and in recent years by
34:46hundreds of thousands of people into the
34:49country from countries that do not share
34:52Ireland's cultural moorings in the
34:54slightest. and the guardier are being
34:57advised to deal very sensitively with
34:59them. And it this behavior, if you want
35:01to put it that way, it enables polygamy.
35:04It enables um these things that, you
35:08know, I would say it's perfectly valid
35:09to say are inferior to monogamy. Um
35:13things that are inferior. Well, uh,
35:16well, I'll I'll interrupt you to read
35:18out a little bit more of the document
35:20because earlier on it talks about how
35:23there's no way to say that your system
35:26is superior culturally to another
35:28person's system. It says generally when
35:31we try to understand the cultural
35:33context of behavior that appears weird
35:35or wrong to us, then the behavior will
35:38begin to make sense. even behavior that
35:40may appear wrong to us may be right in
35:43the context of the cultural values which
35:45influence it. Um blah blah blah. It says
35:49that um
35:52duh it does say that sometimes I will
35:55say to add some nuance it does say that
35:57sometimes people try to use their
35:59culture to justify things which aren't
36:01justifiable. But it goes on to say that
36:04in addition um oh yeah it says that uh
36:08many Irish people's
36:10historical kind of view of African
36:13countries is unfair and prejudiced that
36:15it says um the lack of positive images
36:18of Africa in the media. Black baby
36:21syndrome and the power imbalance in the
36:23world's political and trade structures
36:26have contributed to a view held by many
36:28Irish people which is westerners and the
36:30western way of doing things as being
36:33superior to Africans and the African way
36:35of doing things. Obviously, when
36:37Africans come to live in Ireland, they
36:38experience the consequences of this
36:40worldview in a variety of negative
36:42responses from Irish people, ranging
36:44from simple ignorance of the true
36:46situation in their countries to a form
36:48of paternalism to prejudice and racism,
36:51blah blah blah.
36:52>> Obviously, racist
36:55that if it was that inferior, they
36:57wouldn't be going to Ireland. Uh like
37:00the the that that's the beginning and
37:02end of the whole thing. It's like if if
37:03Ireland was a racist hell hole, you
37:06wouldn't get people going there. But
37:07it's not. And
37:09>> and if the Irish way of doing things
37:11wasn't superior to the way of doing
37:13things in various parts of the world,
37:15then people would not come here. Like
37:17I'm not desperate to move to Papa New
37:19Guinea cuz in Papa New Guinea they eat
37:22people and I don't really like that. So
37:25>> and
37:27to you, Ben, because you haven't tried
37:28to inhabit that world yet.
37:31>> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I'm here saying
37:33cannibalism is bad. Have I even tried
37:35it? You see, I'm speaking from a
37:36position of ignorance here. And that
37:38just shows what kind of person I am.
37:40>> That is you're going to have Guardian in
37:412060 like gnawing on people in an effort
37:44to like, you know, come to understand
37:46some of the cultures some some new
37:48cultures.
37:49>> That's part of the induction training is
37:51you have to eat a human calf muscle or
37:53something. But um I I will I will say
37:57like and this shouldn't even need to be
37:58said but just like
38:01>> no group of people is superior to any
38:04other group of people. Every person is
38:07made equally valuable and precious in
38:09the eyes of God. We're all children of
38:11God. Every race, every nationality,
38:14every group in the world. That's fine.
38:16We all agree with that. We're
38:17Christians. That's fine.
38:18>> Unfortunately, we don't all agree with
38:20that. But it doesn't stop it being true.
38:23Sure,
38:25we a culture is a set of ideas and
38:28practices and it would be insane and
38:34idiotic in the to the maximum degree to
38:38say that certain ideas and practices are
38:41no better or worse than other ones. Of
38:43course, you could have superior ideas
38:45and practices to other cultures, and to
38:49indicate otherwise would be laughable.
38:51So yes, there are cultures that are
38:54superior. I would consider Irish culture
38:56to be vastly superior to the cultures of
38:59many groups around the world which is
39:01why they want to come here and we don't
39:03want to go there and it's very simple.
39:05Um another example of such a practice is
39:09the booklet's talking about the
39:10Pakistani community in Ireland and it
39:13says uh family ties are very important
39:15to the community and families tend to be
39:17extended with the male considered to be
39:20the head of it. So there's more of that
39:22patriarchal uh values. The majority of
39:25Pakistani Muslims in the country who are
39:27married will have had their marriages
39:30arranged in the traditional manner.
39:32Marriage to cousins is very common. Uh I
39:36know this I think most people know this.
39:38This is pretty common knowledge but it's
39:41kind of remarkable to hear the guard
39:42acknowledging it. Uh I don't think
39:44marrying your cousin is
39:47>> an equally good way of doing things. I
39:50think that's a worse way of doing things
39:52that is pretty gross and weird. Uh, you
39:56know, so
39:58the fact that this is just an
40:00alternative,
40:02it's it's the fact that I I just think
40:04there's something grotesque about the
40:06fact that we're being presented with
40:08these practices which are obviously
40:11worse. Yeah.
40:12>> And instead of asking people to leave
40:15that stuff at the door and try to make
40:18some effort to assimilate into our
40:20obviously better way of doing things.
40:22And by the way, it wouldn't matter if
40:24our way of doing things was better or
40:25worse because you're in our country. So
40:27you should have to do our things
40:28regardless. Like you're beggars can't be
40:30choosers. Like if you want to come and
40:32be part of the fabric of our society,
40:34you do things the way we do things. And
40:35that should be neither here nor there.
40:37But it also just so happens that the way
40:39we do things is better than the way you
40:41do things and will actually be better
40:43for you. So the fact that we're not
40:45expecting that of people and the police
40:47are meant to walk on eggshells to
40:49accommodate them and their weird
40:51behaviors, I think is a problem. Like I
40:54really want to get into the head of the
40:56people who are designing these things
40:57and think, okay, well, the Irish
40:59government and the Guardi have been huge
41:01in recent years on domestic and gender
41:04based violence and huge on um uh female
41:09empowerment and all, you know, with all
41:11that entails in the modern age. But
41:12anyway, these have been the big talking
41:14points in recent years. And it's like
41:16what happens in the thought process when
41:19you're pushing all of this all the time
41:22and then I don't know for whatever
41:24reason you're calling say a Nigerian or
41:26a Pakistani household where you
41:28understand that in their culture
41:31um men are traditionally the head of the
41:34household and sort of very
41:36authoritatively so.
41:39um what goes on in the sort of modern
41:44bureaucrat's head when they encounter
41:46that situation? It's like okay, you
41:48know, I really don't like this, but you
41:50know, it's their right to sort of live
41:53live this way. or do they sort of think
41:55that like this is merely a culture over
41:58which they have no jurisdiction despite
42:00the fact that they're in Ireland or I I
42:02would love to know what exactly the
42:04thought process is because generally you
42:05know when I chat to people I disagree
42:07with anyway and you know I'd be having
42:08conversations about these different
42:10things. I just find that um
42:14these are just pure inconsistencies like
42:17people don't think these things think
42:19these things through. Um, I I referenced
42:22him. I think I referenced him earlier.
42:24It might have been while we were
42:25chatting this morning. I can't remember.
42:27I was talking about CS Lewis and how
42:29Yeah. Know it was on the podcast CS
42:31Lewis and the Abolition of Man um in his
42:33essay. So I read it a couple weeks ago
42:35and it's just so prophetic. And the
42:38whole central thrust to that book and
42:40you'll be it'll be clear how it relates
42:42to this now in a second is that if you
42:44were not governed by what you understand
42:46to be universal objective values, you
42:49will ultimately come to be governed by
42:51nothing more than the impulse of the
42:53people in charge and that that
42:55ultimately is a lot more tyrannical than
42:58anything that would seek to
43:00uh live according to sort of universal
43:02principles. So how that applies to this
43:04situation is
43:06we live in a society where we no longer
43:09sort of believe in God for the most but
43:11most people don't believe in God
43:13anymore. They'll say they do but they
43:14don't. They they don't live their lives
43:16in any sort of way that would indicate
43:17they give any sort of credence to an
43:19eternal ordering of things. Um
43:23what came what has come in in into the
43:26heads of most of the people in
43:28government in government in academia in
43:31the media is a way of thinking that is
43:34very much informed by a school of
43:35thought that I mentioned on previous
43:37podcasts no doubt in previous live
43:39streams critical theory the whole point
43:42of critical theory is that it's critical
43:44it's subversive it it sort of approaches
43:48uh traditionally western ways of
43:50thinking and looks for what's oppressive
43:53in them, what is uh patriarchal in them,
43:58all all of the things we're used to
43:59hearing about. And it essentially tries
44:01to take a hammer to those things uh to
44:04be replaced with well
44:07diversity, equity, and inclusion is
44:09largely what they're replaced with in
44:11the West these days. But um ultimately
44:14when it comes to situations like this,
44:15it's like it's the impulse of the people
44:19doing the project that guides these
44:20things like the guard are not being
44:23guided here by
44:25you know concern for the most
44:27vulnerable. they clearly have, you know,
44:31something deeper going on there that
44:32when they approach a Nigerian
44:35polygamist family or whatever it might
44:37be or a Pakistani family, they're
44:39willing to put that in the back seat
44:40because
44:43in that interaction, it's sort of
44:45another tenant of the modern worldview,
44:47which is that well, diversity is very
44:49important and these are diverse members
44:51of the modern Irish community, they
44:53would say, and so we have to sort of,
44:55you know, meet them on very uncritical
44:56terms despite the fact that other Irish
44:58people living that way will have public
45:00awareness campaigns and all sorts of
45:03social harassment essentially doled out
45:06at them these days. So, it's uh it's
45:08just all so muddled and it's also it is
45:11two-tier which is why that that label
45:14comes from there. But you have to be
45:15able to trace it back to the erosion of
45:18objective values to which we're all
45:20beholden that we're all we all live
45:23under that umbrella and the sort of
45:27subversive ideas that have essentially
45:29taken root instead of the heart of it
45:30that a lot of the people who adhere to
45:31these things don't even know they adhere
45:33to. Um but there's there's a lot there's
45:35a lot to it.
45:37>> Yeah. Last last one I wanted to touch on
45:40which I thought was noteworthy and again
45:42because this document is not dated. I
45:44don't know what time period this is
45:46referring to. So I that's not been made
45:49clear but the fact that this was ever
45:50true I think is significant. Uh it says
45:53that some Chinese people particularly
45:57older people who came to this country
45:59were illiterate in their own language.
46:01They found English difficult to learn
46:03and have little or no English at all.
46:06This is also not unusual for individuals
46:08who have moved here in more recent
46:10years, particularly those who are
46:12employed in the catering business. They
46:14have had little opportunity or incentive
46:17to learn English. Uh and it says that
46:21many young children uh who go to school
46:26did not like they they they go to school
46:28effectively having been raised in
46:30Ireland for the first several years of
46:31their life and they can't speak a word
46:33of English and they have to learn from
46:34ground zero because all that's spoken in
46:36their household is Chinese.
46:39The why is why is this okay? Like why
46:42are we accepting this? What do you mean
46:44you have no incentive to learn English?
46:47Surely the incentive is that you live in
46:49a country where English is the most
46:50commonly spoken language like would and
46:52you want to communicate with the people
46:54around you in the country that you now
46:56call home. Is that not an incentive?
46:58Apparently you just don't care. Like
46:59what what are we doing here? And why are
47:01we letting people in? You see, the
47:03argument they always make for
47:05immigration
47:07every single time we try to talk about
47:09this is so the health service would fall
47:12over without immigration and we need
47:14them for this industry and we need them
47:16for that industry and we and of course
47:19as we've conceded many times over and
47:22been happy to concede there is an
47:24element of truth to that. We're all more
47:26than happy. Nobody is seething with rage
47:28when they see a Filipino nurse who's
47:31helping with whatever. Like that's not
47:32the issue. The issue is people who as
47:36this document states are coming to our
47:39country who are illiterate in their own
47:42language, let alone in our language or
47:45any language that will allow them to
47:47speak to the people around them. Tell me
47:49what contribution is that guy making to
47:52the Irish economy. What contribution is
47:54that guy making to make producing a
47:59better, more cohesive country? Can you
48:01explain that to me? I don't think
48:02anybody can because the answer is there
48:05is no contribution being made there.
48:08There's no quality control. There's no
48:10willingness to point out that these
48:13things are unacceptable. Uh you're just
48:16supposed to accept it. And I don't they
48:18don't and none of these people ask any
48:20bloody deep questions. It's like you
48:21know GDP is a very funny metric. It's
48:24like okay well if such people were to
48:26work in like yeah some sort of catering
48:27industry or something like that it
48:28probably does bump the GDP up uh you
48:32know in its own little way very slightly
48:34but it's like okay at what cost are you
48:36doing that it's like well it's at the
48:39cost of essentially developing parallel
48:42societies within society this is a
48:44problem that England is obviously far
48:46ahead of us in terms of having to
48:47grapple with but it doesn't look it it
48:49doesn't look any better there if
48:50anything that looks a lot worse over
48:52there despite the extensive efforts of
48:55the British state. Um, and I think that
48:59no, I was chatting chatting about this
49:00with friends on a recent trip back and
49:02this was really interesting to me. I was
49:03chatting to some friends who I would say
49:06probably are very much not inclined to
49:08agree with me uh in terms of religion,
49:10in terms of politics or anything like
49:12this. I didn't meet a single person who
49:15wasn't willing to admit that. They
49:17weren't willing to admit at the very
49:18least that immigration is having an
49:21effect on the shape of society. Uh and I
49:24was able to get out of some as
49:26concessions that
49:28it's not going to be the Ireland you
49:30knew or that you uh you know very much
49:33benefited from growing up in. It's going
49:35to be something very different because I
49:37just had a whole load of experiences
49:39like um walking through a housing estate
49:41near near where my uh parents live very
49:46recently built built in the past couple
49:48of years that I would say is 90%
49:51inhabited at this stage by uh Indian
49:54families uh who individually passing by
49:57you know perfectly pleasant people who
50:00you know the state opened it up and they
50:02came here for a better opportunity and
50:04they are benefiting fitting by it
50:05economically and things, but you know, I
50:07also I have no problem with the
50:09individuals themselves. What I have a
50:11huge issue with is that you walk around
50:14this estate and these sorts of estates
50:16did not exist in Ireland 20 years ago.
50:20These sorts of estates did not exist in
50:21Ireland up until very very recently.
50:24Now, it's not to say that a nation
50:26should always just be backwards looking
50:27and should always be like, "Oh, things
50:29can only be as they have been and
50:30they'll never be any different in the
50:32future." But what it is to say is that
50:34some change potentially comes with
50:37fairly catastrophic consequences. And
50:39one of those I would say is that in sort
50:42of observing different communities like
50:43there's not very much overlap or
50:45interaction. And it's like you very much
50:48run the risk of no longer having an
50:49integrated society in the future because
50:52like again walking through the I went
50:54for a walk through the state yesterday
50:55just before heading off for our flight
50:57and there was some sort of Indian
50:58community day event in there at which
51:00there were no IR it was it was very busy
51:02like there were lots of people there. Um
51:05there were loud speakers who were sort
51:07of playing games and music and things
51:08like that and uh it was all very busy.
51:11the only Irish people I said the only
51:12Irish people there were the guards
51:14actually who were attending clearly in
51:15some sort of cultural engagement
51:17capacity like it it was it was something
51:20else but nevertheless I was like this is
51:22a whole event going on down here which
51:24is obviously entirely Indian themed
51:27there's no Irish people present other
51:29than the guards who are clearly sort of
51:30sent as envoys of the state and it's
51:33like what sort of society are you
51:35creating here
51:37with like sort of parallel communities
51:39growing up alongside each other that
51:41don't that don't interact. It's like I
51:43feel like even if you are allergic to
51:47right-wing talking points or allergic to
51:49immigration concern, you have to
51:52acknowledge that that is
51:56very unusual.
51:58And if you're going to be very honest,
52:01probably not a good thing because
52:03everyone understands that it's good for
52:05society to be unified. People will
52:06acknowledge it when it comes to sports.
52:08people will acknowledge it when it comes
52:09to responding to national disasters or
52:11emergencies and things, but for some
52:13reason they can see these huge sort of
52:16communities growing up apart from each
52:18other with very little to do with each
52:19other and they're like, "Oh, it'll
52:20probably be fine." And it's like, no, I
52:22I would say history suggests it probably
52:24won't be fine actually, even if you
52:25don't know exactly how it's going to
52:27play out. Um, so it's Yeah, it's it's
52:32something.
52:35Well, speaking of history, we might uh
52:38in a slightly rushed way pivot to some
52:42recent remarks by Tesh Miho Martin about
52:46Irish history and his
52:49>> his all additional comments and I'm
52:52going to paraphrase, but you can fill us
52:54in on exactly what was said. He didn't
52:56he say something to the effect of we
52:58need to stop this very unfortunate trend
53:02that he's observed of people calling
53:05each other names in debates and acting
53:09like their way is the only right way to
53:13uh conduct yourself morally when it
53:15comes to complex social issues and or
53:18oversimplified it. Isn't isn't that
53:21something along the lines of what he
53:22said?
53:23>> 100%. So I know the what I wanted to
53:25talk about was yeah meanh Martin
53:26delivered a speech to open the West Cork
53:28History Festival which took place as it
53:31was about a week and a half ago now was
53:33the week over the weekend August 7th to
53:349th and as I said in the article I wrote
53:37about it it was a great success by all
53:39accounts and I think they absolutely
53:40should have history festivals and why
53:44wouldn't they that's a good thing but
53:45like inviting uh Mihal Martin the
53:48te-shook to discuss uh the proper way to
53:50approach history was a dubious choice to
53:53say the least. East. So, um, from the
53:56very beginning of the speech, the Tisha
53:58commended the festival's commitment to
54:00quote, "Broening discussions beyond
54:02simple narratives." And I'll quote from
54:04some of it here. He said, "At its best,
54:06public engagement with history can
54:08inspire and provide the foundation for a
54:10vibrant democratic discourse. At its
54:12worst, it can be used to keep alive and
54:14expand prejudices and grievances." Um,
54:17which as soon as I read that, I was
54:19like, "Oh my word, you bloody you
54:21hypocrite." Um because I had multiple
54:25memories of contributions he's made to
54:27the doll where he does those very things
54:29like citing history to antagonize
54:32certain people, people of certain
54:35political bents and things like that.
54:36And he's standing up on stage talking
54:38about oh you know what a noble thing,
54:40what an inclusive thing history can be.
54:42So he went on to say that um an assault
54:46on the right descent from a group or
54:48regime defined narrative of history is
54:50one of the most consistent things you
54:52find at present. Um and that he said
54:55that history as an area of free
54:56expression is under more pressure than
54:58at any time in the past 80 years. And so
55:01who's to blame for that in Mihal Arden's
55:03opinion? mainly those committed to quote
55:06extreme ideologies and authoritarianism.
55:11Like there's so much to be said about
55:13all of this, but lest I digress. Um I'll
55:16just quote a little bit at length
55:17because people can all just be a G at it
55:20with me. He said, "The number of
55:22significant political controversies
55:24about challenging national histories has
55:26escalated dramatically with the rise of
55:28reactionary and populist politics. If
55:30there's one thing we should be able to
55:32agree on, it is that history shows us
55:33that demanding the enforcement of a
55:35single narrative about the past, whether
55:37it be nationalist or ideological, is
55:40always destructive. Yeah. The use of
55:42dismissive labels against those who come
55:44to different conclusions feeds division
55:46and undermines understanding.
55:48I mean, where, as I so often ask on this
55:52podcast, where do you even begin here?
55:54Um, one that obviously comes to mind is
55:59the way is the way say Miho Martin very
56:02much engages in the national project
56:04very much the regime and force project
56:07because it's the view entire entirely
56:08backed by the state the view entirely
56:11given voice to in the state funded media
56:14uh the view entirely supported by again
56:17many state funed academics and things
56:19like this that uh Ireland has always
56:22been a diverse and multicultural nation
56:24in a manner as identical to Ireland, the
56:28Ireland of 2026, which is obviously
56:30abject nonsense and completely untrue.
56:32But if you diverge from that, you're a
56:34racist and far far far right all all the
56:37rest of it. And indeed, it's on the
56:40whole record again from Mihole Martin
56:43that have any concerns at all about that
56:45is to quote import the little Englander
56:48mentality. So here's a quote from Mihole
56:51Martin uh in the doll on this. He said,
56:55"Let us all be very clear on one thing.
56:57Those who want to seal off Ireland from
56:59the world. Those who aspired some
57:01mythical purity on this island know
57:03nothing of our past and have nothing to
57:05offer a country whose progress and
57:07prosperity is fundamentally based on its
57:09diversity and engagement with the world.
57:11Their attempt to import the little
57:13Englander mentality continues to be
57:15overwhelmingly rejected by the Irish
57:17people. It's like you got it all there.
57:20You've got a dismissive label for the
57:22people who have concerns about modern
57:24immigration policy. You have a
57:27completely botched view of Irish history
57:29itself that he's sort of saying that if
57:32you if you take a different view than
57:33this, you know, your view is decisively
57:36rejected by the people of Ireland and
57:38you know, you have I thought that was an
57:40astonishing line. They know nothing of
57:42our past and have nothing to offer a
57:45country like
57:46>> they know nothing of the backwards
57:48looking idea of sovereignty.
57:51>> Well, yeah, there is another one that I
57:53could have included. But like that's the
57:54whole thing with him. you have an
57:56endless number of absolute
57:58screamers to choose from. And he's
58:00standing up there at the West Court
58:02history festival said, you know, talking
58:03about history being used to uplift and
58:06empower people and how some the
58:08extremists and the the ideal, especially
58:11those who engage in populist and
58:13reactionary politics, which by the way,
58:17there's no one better populist and
58:18reactionary politics than the than those
58:20who are currently in Irish government.
58:22Their solution to everything at the
58:23moment is throw money at it because
58:25that's what people like to see. They
58:27have no real solutions for anything. Uh
58:30and just to stop gap measures. They're
58:32like, "Okay, referendums on things we
58:34think might do well. Uh money for
58:36popular causes, sports, you know,
58:39community events, whatever the hell you
58:40want, we'll give it to you." Um they are
58:43the masters of reactionary and populist
58:45politics. Um, but because the narrative
58:48was kind of on their side in terms of,
58:50you know, framing those who have
58:51concerns with anything in a particular
58:53way, they're more than happy to do it
58:54and engage in it. And me all marred in
58:56the t-sh is one of the worst for doing
58:58it, if not the worst for doing it. So,
59:00it is laughable for him to stand up
59:02there on the stage and talk like this.
59:04Um, given that it's his own doll record
59:06has lots of another like another one,
59:07you want another another example. I mean
59:10there's loads of gripped articles about
59:11how
59:13uh and thank thanks be to God for grip
59:16providing a platform for these about the
59:17way the mother and baby home narrative
59:19has gone out of control in Ireland.
59:22people talk about them as though they
59:24were essentially uh German concentration
59:26camps when it's very far from that and
59:29that the church was single-handedly
59:31running them and that you essentially
59:32have bloodthirsty nuns throwing infants
59:34out the window um and things like that
59:36and it's so far from the truth and would
59:38require a whole another topic a whole
59:41another podcast to go into and debunk
59:43but as I said there are many articles on
59:44grip people can read about that and
59:46elsewhere and other good publications uh
59:48people people have uh uh taken the axe
59:51to that nar narrative. But anyway,
59:53nevertheless, on the doll record again
59:55in 2021,
59:56um I think it was upon the release of uh
59:59one of the reports in 2021, Mihol Martin
1:00:02said, "We embraced a perverse religious
1:00:05morality and control, judgmentalism and
1:00:07moral certainty, but we shunned our
1:00:09daughters. We honored piety, but failed
1:00:12to show even basic kindness to those who
1:00:14needed it most. We had a completely
1:00:16warped attitude to sexuality and
1:00:18intimacy and young mothers and their
1:00:20sons and daughters were forced to pay a
1:00:21terrible price for that dysfunction. To
1:00:23confront the dark and shameful reality
1:00:25which is detailed in this report must
1:00:27acknowledge it as part of our national
1:00:29history.
1:00:30Like I don't acknowledge that
1:00:34uh
1:00:35description of our history because it's
1:00:37not true. That's not what happened. Uh
1:00:40but it like me saying that undoubtedly
1:00:43even some listeners might disagree with
1:00:44me saying that. So certainly there were
1:00:46failings but we did not how did he put
1:00:48it? We did not embrace a perverse
1:00:51religious morality and control. If that
1:00:54was the case I would like to know how it
1:00:55is we have so many societal failings
1:00:57around now even though uh religion has
1:01:00completely gone out the window for the
1:01:02vast majority of people in this country.
1:01:04You know, I know a lot of people call
1:01:05themselves devout Catholics and things,
1:01:07but you know, I would say, you know,
1:01:09honestly, you're looking at about at
1:01:11most 20% of people take it very serious.
1:01:1420% of people, I can't remember what the
1:01:15exact number is for how many people go
1:01:17to mass every Sunday, which is the
1:01:18absolute basic, but it is very low in
1:01:21the country. So,
1:01:21>> yeah.
1:01:23>> Yeah. Which which would you say is more
1:01:26sexually perverse, modern Ireland or old
1:01:28Ireland? Like what? Honestly, like find
1:01:31me a person who thinks that that's we're
1:01:33we're better on that metric. Like
1:01:35honestly, what's the T comes to mind or
1:01:38any other number of examples just to
1:01:40give one.
1:01:41>> Um I I I do want to uh quickly get to
1:01:45some viewer questions because I'm
1:01:46conscious of the fact that
1:01:47>> you're right.
1:01:48>> Uh we are going a bit over time. And so
1:01:51we have a question here from Mary. And
1:01:54and by the way, actually before I start
1:01:55this again, just to remind people, if
1:01:57you would like to ask a question that
1:01:59gets answered on this podcast, you can
1:02:00go to grip.ie/quests.
1:02:03The link to that should be on the screen
1:02:05for viewers. And so that's how these
1:02:07people ask their questions and we're
1:02:09very grateful to them for that and thank
1:02:12you for your continued interest. We have
1:02:13Mary here who says, "Should Irish
1:02:16Americans who love Ireland and are
1:02:18disgusted to what has happened here be
1:02:20allowed to vote in all elections? If
1:02:22Ukrainians and asylum seekers with no
1:02:24cultural connection can vote, why not
1:02:26third generation Irishameans, why can't
1:02:29they have that right?" Um, what do you
1:02:32think of that, Jason?
1:02:35>> And thank you for your question, Mary.
1:02:37>> If this
1:02:39Yeah. No, thank you for your support,
1:02:41Mary. It's very much appreciated. Um, if
1:02:44you were hoping that my answer would be
1:02:45yes, I'm sorry to disappoint. I don't
1:02:47think
1:02:49uh the vote should be opened up to you
1:02:51know uh say third generation Americans
1:02:53or even once you start getting into
1:02:55generations because you could expand
1:02:57that to include so many people across
1:03:00the globe that it would just be farical
1:03:02first of all but also you know you say
1:03:05people who are discussed about
1:03:06immigration like I'm sure there are
1:03:07great many Irish Americans who you know
1:03:10are more than supportive of the way
1:03:11modern Ireland has gone um and so that
1:03:16sort
1:03:16electoral effect. I I feel I personally
1:03:19will be very much outbalanced. But it's
1:03:20more so the principle that like if you
1:03:23were to justify doing something like
1:03:24that, you could justify opening up the
1:03:26Irish vote any who knows how many people
1:03:29you can end up opening opening it up to
1:03:31because why limit it to America? Why not
1:03:32limit it to, you know, uh people
1:03:34multiple, you know, multiple generations
1:03:36removed from Ireland, uh in any country
1:03:39across the world? So it it just seems
1:03:41entirely unfeasible to me. I mean, I
1:03:43completely agree with the concern about
1:03:46um people in Ireland just, you know,
1:03:48months probably in some cases being able
1:03:50to vote in local elections and things
1:03:52like that. I don't know like I think
1:03:54that should be stopped. Um I I haven't
1:03:56really come down on I think the more
1:03:58interesting one is the question about
1:03:59diaspora voting because you know, okay,
1:04:02selfish stake. I would love to be able
1:04:03to vote in Irish elections but I
1:04:05obviously can't because I'm living
1:04:06abroad now. Um, and you know the line
1:04:10goes that well you're not here if you
1:04:11don't have a stake in uh the country's
1:04:13future so you don't get a vote. I like
1:04:15well I would actually say I probably
1:04:16have more stake in the country that I'm
1:04:19from and that I do still very much think
1:04:21of as home uh than someone who arrived
1:04:25you know a couple months back and who
1:04:27nevertheless has the right to vote. So I
1:04:30think that there are definitely
1:04:31conversations to have about voting
1:04:33eligibility and things and I'm open to
1:04:35being convinced that you know yeah
1:04:38people who've gone abroad actually don't
1:04:39yeah like myself have the right to vote
1:04:41and I I can appreciate some of those
1:04:42arguments but nevertheless uh not to not
1:04:46to third generation or any other
1:04:48generation um immigrants immigrants from
1:04:52Ireland. I just think it's way too
1:04:53messy. I don't know what you think, Ben.
1:04:55>> Yeah, I I would broadly agree. I think
1:04:57you'd run into some. I think there's a
1:04:59general principle. I I don't like the
1:05:00idea of people being able to vote in
1:05:02important elections who don't reside in
1:05:05the country and have to deal with the
1:05:06consequences of their vote. You know,
1:05:08like we collectively as Irish people
1:05:10decide to vote in X or Y party as part
1:05:13of our government, then on our heads be
1:05:15it. But there's something
1:05:17>> I think dangerous about voting for
1:05:20somebody and then you don't even live
1:05:22there. So if the whole thing explodes
1:05:24and goes horribly wrong, then you don't
1:05:25even pay the price. You know, like the
1:05:27beauty about democracy is you pay the
1:05:29price and then you learn your lesson
1:05:31hopefully is the idea. Lessons will be
1:05:33learned as they say.
1:05:34>> Well, the terrible thing is you also pay
1:05:35the price for other people's stupid
1:05:37voting uh preferences. But there's a lot
1:05:40of
1:05:41>> Yeah, there's a lot of that. But no,
1:05:43that is, as I say, one of the arguments
1:05:44that, as I say, I am sympathetic to to
1:05:46Yeah. know, not opening up the vote
1:05:47anyone beyond the island of Ireland. But
1:05:50again, still preferably say this like if
1:05:53if any change was to be made to our
1:05:55voting system and our our franchise, I
1:05:58believe that it should be to make it
1:05:59more restrictive, not to be constantly
1:06:03expanding it to more and more and more
1:06:05people all the time and letting uh 16y
1:06:08olds vote and letting uh you know,
1:06:13migrants vote and trying to get
1:06:15everybody in.
1:06:16>> Like if anything, I think I don't know
1:06:18that I would vote for this. I'd have to
1:06:20tease it out and no serious person is
1:06:22suggesting it, but I think you could
1:06:24even make a case for raising the voting
1:06:26age, you know, that kind of thing. So
1:06:29that
1:06:29>> ideally
1:06:31>> ideally you could only vote if you could
1:06:33prove you've been to mass uh every
1:06:35Sunday of of of the year that you're
1:06:38voting in. [laughter]
1:06:40>> That's uh that's a joke obviously.
1:06:44obviously for those who don't catch it.
1:06:47>> Um, we might also uh respond to a
1:06:50question here from Barney who says,
1:06:53"What do you think will happen to the
1:06:55country once multinationals are forced
1:06:57back to the US through tariffs etc? And
1:07:00do you think it will be positive or
1:07:02negative for Ireland in the long term?"
1:07:04I think this kind of might dovetail with
1:07:06some of our earlier discussion about
1:07:08whether the country is being subjected
1:07:13to the too much econ economy worship I
1:07:16guess cuz obviously
1:07:19it would be devastating to our economy.
1:07:21I don't want the multinationals to pull
1:07:23out. I'll put it that way. Like if I
1:07:25could hit a button and they don't pull
1:07:26out, I would hit that button. You know
1:07:28that will be an ideal situation because
1:07:31we have managed to achieve an economic
1:07:33miracle. We have
1:07:36uh you know benefited greatly from it in
1:07:38a whole variety of ways or at least we
1:07:40have had the potential to benefit from
1:07:42it greatly. Whether we have capitalized
1:07:44on that potential or not is a whole
1:07:46other question. So I don't want to see
1:07:48this country become destitute. I don't
1:07:50want to see this country lose out on uh
1:07:54any kind of prosperity because I'm a
1:07:55patriotic person. of my country. So, I'm
1:07:58not wishing for the multinationals to
1:08:00leave, but if they do leave, I don't
1:08:04know that that would necessarily be the
1:08:06worst thing in the world in the sense
1:08:08that it would force us to build up a
1:08:11domestic industry, which we really
1:08:13should have had all along, and we really
1:08:14should have been building that from the
1:08:17start, but we haven't been. And so, uh,
1:08:21I guess making us be more
1:08:22self-sufficient and independent would be
1:08:25a benefit. you know, you can always find
1:08:27a silver lining in any bad situation.
1:08:29So, I don't think it would be uniformly
1:08:32disastrous. Um, yeah, I I I don't know
1:08:35that uh it would always
1:08:39like it it'd be helpful if we weren't
1:08:43it would be helpful if Ireland was less
1:08:45global in general. I'll put it that way.
1:08:47I wish our politicians would focus on
1:08:49domestic issues that are happening here
1:08:51rather than trying to cater to
1:08:54international conglomerates and America
1:08:57and Europe and this and that. Let just
1:09:00just be an Irish politician and focus on
1:09:02Irish things and the country will be
1:09:04much better.
1:09:05>> Yeah, I mean it is a complex thing. I
1:09:09Yeah, I largely agree with everything
1:09:10you said. I mean, I think that among
1:09:13some people who are disillusioned about
1:09:14the way Ireland has gone, they nearly
1:09:17like lit their lips at the prospect of
1:09:19the multinationals going and it
1:09:21absolutely bankrupting the country. And
1:09:24I was obviously only in my early teens
1:09:27at the time of the uh if even I might
1:09:28have been I can't remember exactly now.
1:09:30I might have been 12 13 that region
1:09:31anyway at the time the sort of uh 2008
1:09:352009 2010 those uh financially
1:09:38horrendous years. Um and that did a lot
1:09:43of damage to a lot of people. A lot of
1:09:45people were really uh suicides rose at
1:09:49that time. Uh a lot of unhealthy trends
1:09:52sort of got underway in terms of like uh
1:09:54alcoholism and uh all the things you
1:09:57would expect to accompany a recession
1:10:00and it was a very tough time for a lot
1:10:02of people and you don't wish that at
1:10:04all.
1:10:06Um and so the ideal thing would be that
1:10:08you could just you know regain clarity
1:10:11without something calamitous like that
1:10:12happening. But it's also the case that
1:10:16um it's kind of like I was talking about
1:10:18earlier my own thoughts on this anywhere
1:10:20that these are good things but they're
1:10:21not the most important or the best
1:10:23things. Um I think it's far more
1:10:26important to be properly oriented
1:10:28towards what I would see sort of
1:10:30classically as the good, the true and
1:10:32the beautiful. And that if you do that,
1:10:34you'll construct, you know, it's hard
1:10:36work, but you'll construct a good
1:10:38society. And unfortunately, I do feel
1:10:41far too much as though Ireland is
1:10:44subservient to the economy at the cost
1:10:46of all else. Or not not Ireland, but our
1:10:49politicians certainly are. And that's
1:10:50very much their calculus
1:10:52that sees like considerations, as we
1:10:55were talking earlier, of social
1:10:56cohesion,
1:10:57you know, put to the side in favor of
1:10:59issuing however many visas people are
1:11:01willing to take. they'll put them out
1:11:02there. Um, and it's like, well, you
1:11:05might well be losing something there,
1:11:07but it ultimately doesn't matter because
1:11:08it's, you know, good for the economy,
1:11:10right? It's good for the GDP right now,
1:11:12this second, and therefore we'll do it.
1:11:15Um, and I think that if the
1:11:18multinationals were to pull out, it
1:11:20would Okay, so you would have a lot of
1:11:22harm and damage done. Lots of people
1:11:24would lose jobs. Uh, it would be
1:11:26absolutely disastrous for Ireland's
1:11:28balance books and things like that. the
1:11:31country will be a lot poorer. There's no
1:11:32doubt about it. Uh and that comes with a
1:11:35lot of that would be very uncomfortable
1:11:38and very painful.
1:11:40But I also just belong to that school of
1:11:42thought like Catholicism was be like
1:11:46that avoiding discomfort ought not to be
1:11:49the primary goal of life. Um and in a
1:11:52circumstances like that you would have
1:11:55an ideal opportunity for having tough
1:11:58conversations about okay what are you
1:12:00supposed to do about as you say
1:12:01self-sufficiency about you know what
1:12:04matters now what what when your back's
1:12:06against a wall what are the essentials
1:12:08that you have to focus on to build
1:12:09something good and uh we are prevented
1:12:12from having a lot of these conversations
1:12:13by the government absolutely raking in
1:12:16cash and just using cash to throw at
1:12:18everything and clearly it's like that's
1:12:20not heading in a good direction either
1:12:22like and there's a lot of ill coming
1:12:24from that as as we've discussed plenty
1:12:25on this podcast but um it would be a
1:12:28messy thing and there'd be a lot of pain
1:12:29and it' be very uncomfortable but
1:12:31certainly there would be hope for a
1:12:34brighter future I think in that but it's
1:12:36that brighter future is something we
1:12:38could aim at now as well but we just
1:12:39choose not to so it's uh it's
1:12:42multifaceted
1:12:44>> most definitely and we appreciate
1:12:46everybody who wrote in thank you for the
1:12:48question uh Barney and thank you to
1:12:50everybody else who has written in and
1:12:52please continue to do so because we
1:12:54enjoy engaging with our audience and we
1:12:57appreciate everybody's continued support
1:12:59and viewing. We sure do. So with that
1:13:00said, we will catch you all next week
1:13:02for another episode of the Long Game
1:13:04Podcast. God bless.
1:13:06>> God bless.

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