Abortion Debate on 'The Breakfast Club' Gets Heated — Transcript

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1. 0:00Then you believe in banning abortions,
2. 0:01right?
3. 0:01>> Uh I I'm pro life. Yes.
4. 0:03>> Even in cases of incest and rape?
5. 0:05>> Yes.
6. 0:06>> Why?
7. 0:06>> Uh because th this is a sort of a
8. 0:08fundamental definitional question. If
9. 0:10you believe life begins at conception,
10. 0:12then regardless of the source of the
11. 0:14life, it now has an independent interest
12. 0:16in life. So that's that is not to
13. 0:18minimize the the tremendous evil of rape
14. 0:20or incest, I I believe rape should be
15. 0:22should be executed frankly um or
16. 0:24chemically castrated at best. But you
17. 0:26know that that's sort of a different
18. 0:28question from the independent source of
19. 0:30life and whether whe this again it gets
20. 0:32back to definitions and this this
21. 0:35conversation tends to be either you're
22. 0:36on one side of that or the other. If you
23. 0:37if you don't believe life begins at
24. 0:38conception then obviously you believe
25. 0:40abortion is acceptable in a wide variety
26. 0:41of circumstances. If you believe it's an
27. 0:43independent life deserving of protection
28. 0:45then you believe it's an independent
29. 0:47life deserving of protection.
30. 0:48>> Norm what do you think about that? I'm
31. 0:49just as a woman.
32. 0:50>> Um I think that a woman should be able
33. 0:51to choose to do what she wants to do
34. 0:53wherever she decides to do it. I
35. 0:54personally I believe that women should
36. 0:56be able to uh abort babies if they want
37. 0:58to if they feel like that's what they
38. 0:59need to do.
39. 0:59>> Do do you have a time limit on that out
40. 1:01of curiosity?
41. 1:02>> Um I mean I think it should happen
42. 1:05earlier on if it were me making a
43. 1:07decision for myself, but I think it's up
44. 1:09to the woman and what she's personally
45. 1:10experiencing and what she personally
46. 1:12went through. I really think it's a per
47. 1:13person thing. And that's why I think
48. 1:14it's crazy when you have like these
49. 1:16structures and these like people who are
50. 1:18not in that that uh that situation
51. 1:20making the decision for the woman of
52. 1:22what you can and can't do because it's
53. 1:24very like per person. My situation might
54. 1:26be different than another woman who's
55. 1:27sitting next to me.
56. 1:28>> Right. So again, this is sort of the
57. 1:29definitional issue that we're talking
58. 1:30about because you're talking about what
59. 1:33a woman should be allowed to do and what
60. 1:35I'm talking about is the definition of
61. 1:36personhood of the separate person inside
62. 1:38the woman. I think that what I what I'd
63. 1:40push on is why why do you personally
64. 1:41believe that a woman should have an
65. 1:42abortion earlier?
66. 1:44>> Um just I think just in from personal
67. 1:46experience I've been in a situation. I
68. 1:48just think emotionally and mentally it's
69. 1:50less that you think about but it does
70. 1:51depend on how you think of when the life
71. 1:54is formed or or you know should be
72. 1:56looked at as like a life that you
73. 1:57>> right. So that's that that I think is
74. 1:59the big question and that's where the
75. 2:00disconnect is. So so
76. 2:01>> but that what I'm saying is that that's
77. 2:02always going to be different for each
78. 2:04person. But I don't think that the
79. 2:06subjective definition of life is how we
80. 2:08define life. Meaning that you being
81. 2:10uncomfortable with a woman having an
82. 2:12abortion in the ninth month, you're
83. 2:14saying that just because you're
84. 2:15uncomfortable with it, that doesn't mean
85. 2:16that you should stop a woman from doing
86. 2:17that. My point is that life has a
87. 2:20definition, right? We all agree, for
88. 2:21example, that a onemonth old baby should
89. 2:22not be drowned, right? We all agree on
90. 2:24that. And that's not up to the the
91. 2:25personal should not be drowned. You
92. 2:26shouldn't you shouldn't take the baby
93. 2:27and drown in a bathtub, right? And and
94. 2:29the question is, well, why? Because we
95. 2:32now understand that the one-month old
96. 2:33baby, everyone agrees with this, right?
97. 2:35That that except for Peter Singer at
98. 2:36Princeton, that a one-month old baby has
99. 2:38an independent interest in life, right?
100. 2:40That is a life that is that is separate
101. 2:41from the woman and requires protection.
102. 2:44Okay? So, if it is a life, then we now
103. 2:46have an objective definition. Doesn't
104. 2:48matter what the state of mind of the
105. 2:48woman is. It doesn't matter if she
106. 2:50thought, you know what, I have a really
107. 2:51tough life. My life will be better off
108. 2:53if if this baby is drowned, if I don't
109. 2:55have to deal with this baby, and so I'm
110. 2:56gonna drown the baby. that the baby has
111. 2:58an independent
112. 3:00actual interest in living. And so the
113. 3:02question becomes, is that true before
114. 3:04birth? And I think for for the vast
115. 3:06majority of Americans are actually
116. 3:07somewhere where you are practically,
117. 3:08meaning that the vast majority of
118. 3:09Americans do see in sort of a soft way a
119. 3:13distinction between, you know, the early
120. 3:15stages of life, you know, month two and
121. 3:179 month, right? Like the approval in
122. 3:19America of abortion at the very late
123. 3:20stages is very, very low because most
124. 3:22Americans
125. 3:22>> it stops around like four or five months
126. 3:24for most people, right? I mean, mo most
127. 3:26abortions are performed in the in the
128. 3:28first trimester. Yes. Yes. But but the
129. 3:30the point that I'm making is that the
130. 3:32the logic that that you're using allows
131. 3:34for abortion like literally right before
132. 3:36the baby is born. So then the question
133. 3:37becomes why is that okay? And it's not a
134. 3:40woman's choice at that point whether
135. 3:41that is a life or not because you don't
136. 3:43get to artificially or subjectively
137. 3:45define the meaning of things.
138. 3:46>> We're playing with semantics though.
139. 3:47Yeah. It's not it's not semantic. Either
140. 3:49either it's a life or it's not a life.
141. 3:50Right.
142. 3:51>> Your daughter was raped. It's almost
143. 3:52like you're saying she's raped and I'm
144. 3:54going to make her have this child.
145. 3:56>> No, I I mean
146. 3:57>> because you're saying you don't believe
147. 3:58in abortion, even if rape and incest,
148. 3:59right?
149. 3:59>> I I'm what what I'm saying there is that
150. 4:01I don't believe in abortion in case of
151. 4:03rape and incest. The practical effect is
152. 4:05hor horrible. Okay, I'm not going to
153. 4:07pretend that it is not emotionally
154. 4:09horrifying that particular situation.
155. 4:12>> The question is whether it has an
156. 4:13independent interest in life or not and
157. 4:14whether there's a third party involved.
158. 4:16If you don't believe there's a third
159. 4:17party deserving of protection, I totally
160. 4:18get it. I get it. But we should we
161. 4:20should understand that that's the actual
162. 4:21conversation. And the actual
163. 4:22conversation is about whether you
164. 4:23believe that this is an interested third
165. 4:26party being. Do you get to kill that
166. 4:28interested third party being, this human
167. 4:30life with potential, or do you not? If
168. 4:32you and so the actual argument that that
169. 4:34I I don't like is the idea that that you
170. 4:37can that everybody it's up to every
171. 4:38single person to define when life begins
172. 4:40and when life does not begin. That that
173. 4:41actually is not true, right? There's
174. 4:42either a standard or there's not a Now,
175. 4:44you can say that that life begins when
176. 4:46the baby is independent of the mom. I
177. 4:48think it's a very dicey biological
178. 4:49argument and I think most Americans
179. 4:51agree with that that that that life only
180. 4:52begins when the baby exits.
181. 4:54>> I think it begins with with a heartbeat.
182. 4:55>> Yeah.
183. 4:56>> Okay. So, I think that's where most
184. 4:57Americans are and that's extremely
185. 4:58early. Right. And so if that if that's
186. 5:00extremely if the life begins with the
187. 5:01heartbeat then you you're now talking
188. 5:03about depending on your definition of a
189. 5:05heartbeat somewhere between 6 and 10
190. 5:06weeks,
191. 5:06>> right? Very very very early. And so if
192. 5:08that is now has an independent interest,
193. 5:10you're talking about abortion
194. 5:11restrictions very early on. And so
195. 5:13that's why you know a lot of red states
196. 5:15have signed heartbeat laws for example.
197. 5:17Right. And so again, I think that the
198. 5:20clarity is good, right? Because now we
199. 5:22can have a conversation. Where do you
200. 5:23think life begins? And that's a better
201. 5:24conversation than the the sort of
202. 5:27assumption by I think people who are not
203. 5:28pro-life that pro-life is just about
204. 5:30controlling the woman's body. No, it it
205. 5:32isn't. Okay. It really is not. Like for
206. 5:34proiffers, it has it has literally
207. 5:36nothing to do with the woman's body. It
208. 5:38has to do with the independent interest
209. 5:39of the life inside the woman and how you
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250. 6:48>> But once you define it, once you define
251. 6:50it, depending on your definition, it
252. 6:51does control what a woman can and can't
253. 6:53do with her body.
254. 6:54>> Well, there effects to definitions of
255. 6:55course, right? I mean, if I define life
256. 6:57as it begins at a heartbeat, then that
257. 6:59is going to have public policy
258. 7:00ramifications that affect and just as in
259. 7:03anything else, if I define theft in a
260. 7:06particular way, that's going to have
261. 7:07downstream effects on people who commit
262. 7:09that definition of the crime. And if I
263. 7:11broaden the definition, it's going to
264. 7:12include more people. That's true for
265. 7:14literally any legal term. It's true for
266. 7:16for any word that we use in life. As you
267. 7:18expand the definition, it affects more
268. 7:19people in different ways. But that
269. 7:21doesn't change the necessity to have the
270. 7:22conversation about what the definition
271. 7:24is. And I think it's an easy way out to
272. 7:26basically say, well, you know, I have a
273. 7:28definition of life, but and and it gets
274. 7:30into very dicey territory because
275. 7:31historically people have defined uh
276. 7:33defined away entire populations as not
277. 7:36human. And so we can't do that, right?
278. 7:38like you you you really don't want
279. 7:39people looking at other people and
280. 7:41saying well by I you know I don't think
281. 7:43that this person I I mean to to take the
282. 7:46the obvious and most controversial
283. 7:47example for a huge percentage of
284. 7:49American history there was a wide
285. 7:50variety of people in America who
286. 7:52believed black people were not fully
287. 7:53human and therefore you could enslave
288. 7:55them compromise correct um and so like
289. 7:58the and and so was that a subjective
290. 8:00question that was not a subjective
291. 8:01question black people are fully human
292. 8:04and just as human as white people equal
293. 8:06the same right like the And so if
294. 8:08somebody were to say, "Listen, I
295. 8:10personally am anti-slavery, right? I
296. 8:11think that slavery is is personally
297. 8:13wrong, but it's really up to every
298. 8:15person to define for themsel whether a
299. 8:17black person is fully a human or not
300. 8:19fully a human." You're like, "What the
301. 8:20what the
302. 8:21>> I don't think you can compare those two
303. 8:22things."
304. 8:23>> Why?
305. 8:24>> Just because I think, you know, if if
306. 8:26I'm making So if you're a slave master,
307. 8:29right, and you say, "I believe slavery
308. 8:31is right because black people aren't
309. 8:33human." Like that's a decision that
310. 8:36you're making that is based on things
311. 8:38like you know what the slaves can do for
312. 8:39you and your property. Like the the what
313. 8:41the benefit of what slavery will do for
314. 8:43that slave master is so different than
315. 8:45if a woman has to have a baby because
316. 8:47she was raped and how that will affect
317. 8:49her life like that. I think you have a
318. 8:50decision that you can make a lot easier.
319. 8:53>> It's almost like you force a woman
320. 8:54twice, right? Cuz she like do I become a
321. 8:55slave master or not versus do I have a
322. 8:57baby or she has this baby and now she's
323. 8:59forced to have
324. 8:59>> try a Jewish analogy. Go.
325. 9:01>> Sure. So I mean I mean sure. So if there
326. 9:03was an entire population in Europe that
327. 9:06was considered subhuman by the Nazis and
328. 9:08they were exterminated. If you said I am
329. 9:10personally against the extermination of
330. 9:11the Jews, but I understand why Germans
331. 9:13could think that Jews are subhuman.
332. 9:14>> And so you know it really is up to every
333. 9:17individual to determine whether a Jew is
334. 9:20human or not fully human and can be put
335. 9:21in the back of a van and gast. We'd be
336. 9:23like what are what in the world? What in
337. 9:26the world?
338. 9:26>> You're saying there should be no
339. 9:27prochoice in regards to that.
340. 9:29>> Yeah. So the definitions are not a
341. 9:30matter of choice. definitions are a
342. 9:32matter of actual objective fact
343. 9:33otherwise we can't even have a
344. 9:34conversation because if words have
345. 9:36meanings then we all have to agree on
346. 9:38the at least that right that much we
347. 9:40have to agree on is is the meaning of
348. 9:41the words and when it comes to you know
349. 9:43sort of the slavemaster analogy the the
350. 9:44point that I'm making here is is not
351. 9:46about the personal experience of the
352. 9:48slave master in fact I'm saying it's
353. 9:49completely irrelevant what I'm saying is
354. 9:51that the reason that that slavery was
355. 9:52wrong is because black people are fully
356. 9:54independent human beings who require the
357. 9:56protection of the law in the same way as
358. 9:58everyone else and if you're a proifer
359. 10:00you believe that's also true unborn.
360. 10:01>> Okay. I like I understand what you're
361. 10:02saying. Um I'm a pro-choice person. Uh
362. 10:05but I do wonder how come pro-life people
363. 10:07aren't anti-war.
364. 10:09>> Well, I mean I think everybody is
365. 10:11anti-war. I think the question is is the
366. 10:13definition of when war is appropriate? I
367. 10:15don't like who's running around going
368. 10:17like war is awesome. Yes, more war.
369. 10:20Let's do it.
370. 10:20>> So 50,000 kids have been killed in Gaza
371. 10:23because of this current war.
372. 10:24>> Depends on on the definitions and the
373. 10:26list that you're getting. Well, I mean,
374. 10:27also depends on on how you're defining
375. 10:29kid because the way that kamas defines
376. 10:30kid is very different than how they
377. 10:32define kid when it comes to recruiting
378. 10:33for kamas, right? There are 15-year-olds
379. 10:35with with AKs on the battlefield,
380. 10:36unfortunately.
381. 10:37>> Out of the womb,
382. 10:39>> is it is not 50,000 out of the womb. I
383. 10:41mean, if you're talking if you're
384. 10:41talking about like very very small
385. 10:42children is much much lower than that.
386. 10:44>> But my point is there are children that
387. 10:46are being killed.
388. 10:47>> Yes. Who who have died as collateral
389. 10:48damage in the war. Yes.
390. 10:49>> So, shouldn't proifers be totally
391. 10:51against that?
392. 10:51>> Well, I mean, I'm I'm against the death
393. 10:53of any innocent human being. The
394. 10:55question is when you're doing foreign
395. 10:56policy, how you prevent more deaths in
396. 10:59the future and and the point that that I
397. 11:01think Israel is making is this war it
398. 11:03off legislation and it's actually not a
399. 11:04matter of morals and values or
400. 11:06>> no of course of course it's a matter of
401. 11:07morals and values but you can't be let's
402. 11:10put it this way. It is it's incredibly
403. 11:11reductive to simply say that if you are
404. 11:14a moral person then you oppose all war
405. 11:16because what that does it allows immoral
406. 11:18people to then use that against you to
407. 11:19destroy your civilization. If if your
408. 11:21community is attacked and bad people who
409. 11:23don't have the same values as you decide
410. 11:24to kill you, kill your children, rape
411. 11:26your wife and kill her, are you supposed
412. 11:29to say, "Well, I'm anti-war and so I'm
413. 11:30going to sit here and do nothing."
414. 11:31>> So, isn't that the same if somebody
415. 11:33rapes a woman and impregnates them?
416. 11:35Shouldn't in that case that person be
417. 11:37allowed to make a choice?
418. 11:38>> Well, no. The the point is that the the
419. 11:40prevention this is why you should
420. 11:41minimize civilian casualties. To get
421. 11:43back to the beginning of the of the
422. 11:44conversation, this is why it's it's
423. 11:45independently moral to try as much as
424. 11:47possible to minimize civilian
425. 11:48casualties. Right? When it comes to
426. 11:50abortion, the idea is you can minimize
427. 11:51that casualty by just preventing it.
428. 11:54>> How can you prevent being raped?
429. 11:56>> Well, I mean that that's a different
430. 11:57question again.
431. 11:58>> But in that, let's let's talk about that
432. 12:00because what I don't like is Listen,
433. 12:02first first of all, when we're talking
434. 12:04about when we're talking about rape and
435. 12:06abortion, we should note that well over
436. 12:0899% of abortions are are not undertaken
437. 12:11because of rape. And so, if you want to
438. 12:13come with me and ban all abortions
439. 12:14except for rape, I'll probably make that
440. 12:15trade for you. Meaning if you want to
441. 12:17ban all abortions, elective abortions,
442. 12:19and what I have to do is give up
443. 12:21abortion with regard to rape and incest,
444. 12:23that is that is a trade on a pragmatic
445. 12:25level politically that I would make.
446. 12:27>> Okay. So, you're not down on that hill.
447. 12:29You
448. 12:29>> Well, it's not it's not that I I mean, I
449. 12:30I believe that again, rape and incest, I
450. 12:33think, is is the reason people choose
451. 12:34that argument is because it's the
452. 12:35hardest argument to make emotionally
453. 12:36from the pro-life side. But I think that
454. 12:38we should note that the vast majority of
455. 12:39abortions have nothing to do with rape
456. 12:41or incest. They have to do with elective
457. 12:42abortions.
458. 12:43>> Was that
459. 12:43>> you never got the wrong person pregnant?
460. 12:44>> Jesus.
461. 12:45>> Uh, no. my my wife four times. Thank
462. 12:46God.
463. 12:47>> Oh, okay.
464. 12:48>> Well, that's all for now, folks. Don't
465. 12:49forget to like, subscribe, and comment
466. 12:51your thoughts down below. Be sure to
467. 12:53check out all of the other great content
468. 12:54on my channel. I'll see you here next
469. 12:56time.