YT YouTube2Text

YouTube2Text → Transcripts → Abigail Shrier | Social Contagion and Gender Identity

Abigail Shrier | Social Contagion and Gender Identity — Transcript

by John Anderson Media · 7,506 words · 1,340 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

Open in transcriber Summarize with AI Download SRT/VTT

Full transcript

0:00it is so unforgivably irresponsible
0:03for the activist doctors who have gone
0:06on the news and they've done this in
0:07america
0:08to attack me and attack my book and say
0:11that
0:11young people will kill themselves
0:13because of my book that is an
0:14unforgivable statement by a doctor
0:17because they know that suicide
0:18is itself a contagion
0:23[Music]
0:25abigail schreiber is an independent
0:28journalist
0:29who's a graduate of columbia college the
0:31university of oxford
0:33and yale law school her writings
0:36regularly appear in the wall street
0:38journal
0:38in newsweek and other widely read
0:41publications
0:42she's appeared on the joe rogan
0:44experience and jordan peterson's
0:46dialogues podcast her recent book
0:49irreversible damage the transgender
0:52craze seducing our daughters
0:55has become one of the most discussed and
0:58i think important books
0:59of our era abigail thank you so much for
1:02joining us
1:04oh thank you so much for having me on
1:07can i um cast a wide net can i ask you
1:10to say
1:11what is the central argument of your
1:12book and why do you think it's generated
1:15so much hate so um
1:18the central argument of my book is that
1:21um
1:22you know the gender dysphoria the severe
1:24discomfort in
1:25one's biological sex is something that's
1:28been around
1:29for a hundred years at least we've have
1:30a hundred year diagnostic history of it
1:33so it's something we know about and it
1:34always began with little boys
1:36predominantly certainly always began in
1:38early childhood mostly little
1:40boys between the ages of two and four
1:42and some of these boys would grow out of
1:44it
1:44and many of them would become gay adults
1:46and some would continue on and
1:48and become what we used to call
1:50transsexuals in the last decade out of
1:52nowhere
1:53the leading demographic claiming to have
1:55gender dysphoria
1:56and wanting to transition to the
1:58opposite sex is teenage girls
2:01teenage girls who are doing this in
2:03friend groups teenage girls who are
2:05coming under the influence of trans
2:06influencers on social
2:08media girls who are being celebrated for
2:10their new gender identity in the school
2:12system
2:13and it's a it's a very it might my
2:15book's an investigation into why
2:18why why are these girls suddenly
2:19deciding that their problem is
2:21gender and and obtaining hormones and
2:24surgeries so easily
2:27well thank you for the overview uh and
2:29um
2:30if we could start with some some basics
2:33now i understand that those that are
2:36categorised as
2:36intersex might formally have been known
2:39uh under the category of um
2:40hermaphrodites who have physical or
2:45other abnormalities that are they're not
2:47normally part of this debate about
2:48transgenderism it's different
2:51because it's a this is a very confusing
2:53debate for parents say of kids at school
2:55it's crept up on them what do all these
2:56terms mean
2:58but we're really talking about people
3:00here who have a psychological condition
3:03where they feel that they're the
3:05opposite sex to the one that they
3:08actually present as and no one wants to
3:11be
3:12judgmental or harsh or unfair to people
3:15who are really deeply
3:16sincerely struggling with these issues
3:18but how did we go from an approach of of
3:21deep
3:22concern and sympathy and commitment to
3:24psychological care of those who thought
3:26they were in the wrong body
3:28to the outright affirmation i mean
3:31you're only allowed to affirm it seems
3:33their sense of being born in the wrong
3:35body and even
3:37casting serious dispersion uh on people
3:41such as jermaine greer or jk rowling who
3:44who put up the notion that men
3:48can't be women and women can't be men
3:51right so the hypothesis of my book is
3:53that this is a social contagion among
3:55teenage girls meaning they don't have
3:57typical gender dysphoria at all
3:59what they have is a social contagion a
4:02way of
4:02explaining and understanding the very
4:05real pain they're in they're in a lot of
4:06psychological pain we know the rates of
4:08anxiety and depression are very high for
4:10this cohort
4:11and the girls look to the culture and
4:13and at
4:14different eras prior errors they they
4:16have learned from the culture that their
4:18problem is they're too fat
4:20and that was what was known as anorexia
4:21or bulimia and that's how
4:23why it spread so much within friend
4:25groups and today they look to the
4:26culture and say i know what this is i'm
4:28supposed to be a boy
4:31yeah well that's it's extraordinary um
4:34to clean up one other thing you're an
4:36investigative journalist uh
4:38not a medical health expert do people
4:40try and say well you ought to be a
4:41medical health expert to
4:42know anything about this and to write
4:44about it
4:46um yes i get that a lot i think it's
4:48ridiculous of course
4:49who uncovers medical scandals um
4:52journalists most often
4:53i did exactly my job i interviewed a
4:56tremendous number of experts
4:58and i reported on what they had to say
5:00and what they had to say
5:01was and and in some cases they didn't
5:04want to go
5:05on you know on the record under their
5:06own names but many cases they did
5:08and what they were ringing the alarm
5:10bells about is the fact that there is
5:12almost
5:13no medical oversight and tons of push
5:16from within the medical community to
5:18affirm young teenage girls
5:20whose problem actually probably isn't
5:23gender
5:24nonetheless they're fat they are
5:25fast-tracked to hormones and surgeries
5:28which can do irreversible harm and in
5:31that answer
5:32you're revealing a deep compassion for
5:34girls and others who are struggling with
5:36this issue
5:37what you're really saying is it's about
5:39misdiagnosis
5:40and a sort of a you know a sort of
5:44extraordinary societal push
5:49to endorse something that actually isn't
5:51going to solve the problem because the
5:52problems
5:54are elsewhere yes that's right in a
5:56sense
5:57this book has nothing to do with
5:59transgender people and i you know
6:01i mean that as someone who cares a lot
6:02about you know transgender people i've
6:05met a lot of wonderful
6:06transgender people in the course of
6:07writing the book but the
6:09the book is is really about a copycat
6:12phenomenon
6:12among teenage girls who are in very real
6:15pain but have
6:16mislocated what the source of their pain
6:18is
6:19so they don't have typical gender
6:21dysphoria and for
6:23that reason are very unlikely to be
6:24helped by the transition
6:26and we're already seeing uh very high
6:28rates of regret
6:30that's a really significant point we'll
6:32certainly certainly seek to come back to
6:33that and cue rebel
6:34the whole european british experience
6:37and what have you but
6:38but there's another aspect of this uh
6:40that you've written that that
6:42really almost chilled me because you see
6:44it in so many areas now
6:46and it's what might be loosely called
6:48activism and you actually wrote i think
6:50i'm quoting this accurately
6:51we're certainly seeing in the united
6:53states a young generation of doctors and
6:54therapists who are
6:56activists first and doctors second
6:59their ideological commitments precede
7:01their professional investigation
7:04and indeed what some six or seven years
7:06ago
7:08the authoritative classification in
7:10america of psychological disorders the
7:12dsm-5 i think it's called change the
7:15term gender
7:16identity disorder to gender
7:19dysphoria can you um
7:23explain what that change meant why it's
7:24so significant and why
7:26to what extent it was potentially driven
7:27by activism rather than
7:31sound thinking and and and sound
7:33medicine
7:35sure to be honest i'm not sure that that
7:37particular change was driven by activism
7:40i happen to have interviewed in my book
7:41the man who chaired the committee to
7:43write the dsm-5 entry
7:46and um you know and he was also on the
7:48committee for the dsm-4 and they had a
7:50really robust and open discussion among
7:52the experts on gender dysphoria
7:54as to why they might um choose a less
7:57stigmatizing term
7:59um it's still of course in a diagnostic
8:01and statistical manual of
8:03you know mental health disorders that's
8:05that's the name of the
8:06the compendium but i'm not sure that
8:09particular change was activist driven
8:11but what you're seeing now is far worse
8:13you're seeing doctors
8:15young doctors who attack me who attack
8:18anyone who points out
8:20that hey these seem to be really hasty
8:23transitions
8:24young women who can't get a tattoo are
8:26having their breasts removed in the
8:27united states
8:28without even a therapist note and that
8:31that kind of
8:32you know raising that point and
8:35asking why and whether this is a good
8:38idea
8:38is it's just not usually the things that
8:41doctors would attack you
8:42over but but unfortunately today the the
8:45young
8:46doctors are are there is a group of
8:49young doctors young scientists who are
8:50so woke
8:52and so ideologically bent on a
8:54conclusion they've begun with
8:57that they will not countenance any
8:58questioning of their protocols
9:02this is deeply concerning now in
9:05australia we're like america we're a
9:07federation
9:08and in one of our states today
9:11parents whose child came home and said i
9:13think i'm trapped in the wrong body
9:15would be genuinely and legitimately
9:18concerned
9:20that in contrast to say the the kid
9:23coming home and saying
9:24i think i'd like a tattoo you could say
9:25look we don't think that's a good idea
9:28why don't you wait wait for six months
9:30wait for 12 months
9:31or whatever and then we'll talk it over
9:34and we'll think it through but if you
9:35were to say that to
9:36a child who said i think i'm trapped in
9:38the wrong body we want to wait let's
9:39work this through
9:40let's have a look at the numbers and do
9:43the research
9:44you actually literally could find
9:45yourself before the law
9:47for not affirming them and
9:50the work brigade if i can put it that
9:52way at the very least would be screaming
9:54at you you're placing your child's life
9:56in danger
9:58and and you you have i think a major
10:00problem with this so-called
10:02um immediately a firm approach
10:05to gender dysphoria as opposed to as
10:07opposed to
10:08weight c let's talk this through let's
10:10look at the numbers
10:11the numbers are really interesting and
10:12we'll come to those in a moment ago
10:14do you think there's a good reason to
10:16think that a teenager could be wrong
10:19about that self-identification of being
10:20in the wrong body on the numbers and on
10:22your research
10:23well of course not not only are they you
10:26know likely to be wrong
10:28or you know in this especially in this
10:30case where there's
10:31so under the influence of you know their
10:33peers
10:34but we know something about teenagers we
10:36know they take
10:37they're much more likely look adults
10:39make bad decisions too
10:41okay but but but we tend to trust adults
10:44to make those bad decisions we don't
10:47tend to trust teens
10:48because they tend to make bad decisions
10:50under the influence of peers meaning
10:53their peer approval means so much to
10:55them in those
10:56ages you can't really expect them in
10:58many cases to exercise
11:00good judgment um this is something that
11:02psychologists have been able to test and
11:03show
11:04about teenagers they're much more likely
11:06to engage in reckless
11:07activity if their peers approve of it so
11:10i think that
11:11that is you know where why we haven't
11:13historically trusted them to make these
11:15these irreversible you know decisions
11:18and
11:18you know lo and behold we're seeing
11:20already really high rates of regret
11:23i mean any any week you go to visit
11:25youtube you see new
11:26transitioners young men and women but
11:29especially women coming out and saying
11:31i i never should have done this where
11:33were where were the safeguards where
11:35were the doctors looking out for me
11:37yeah now um can you just tease out a
11:40little bit more
11:41what you learned about the psychological
11:43disincentives
11:44uh or distinctive sorry of teenage girls
11:47versus
11:47boys in this whole environment how they
11:50think throwing through
11:51their dependence on peer group indeed i
11:53think you've mentioned a couple of times
11:55too that
11:56um in these strange times when funnily
11:59enough the sexual revolution seems to
12:00have done a lot of damage to romance
12:02that a lot of teenage girls um are
12:06very close to their mums which which is
12:07terrific but they're
12:09not engaging in in sort of early
12:11romances in the way that people of
12:13my generation they nearly said yours and
12:15mine but you're much younger than me
12:17um we might have so so there's there's
12:20there
12:21there's not only the psychological
12:23distinctiveness i suppose you could say
12:25factors but also the social factors that
12:27are
12:27making it a very different world for
12:29teenage girls at the moment
12:31that's right we know we're seeing the
12:33loneliest generation on record as
12:36as psychologist american psychologist
12:38jean twangy referred to this generation
12:40they spend a lot less time with each
12:42other in person and a lot
12:43les more time online so they're they're
12:46not
12:47getting the in-person comforts they're
12:49being tortured by the online images and
12:52falling under the influence of online
12:54influencers
12:55and unfortunately these very unhappy
12:57girls are being promised that if they
12:59just start a course of testosterone
13:01all their troubles will go away
13:04and so part of what they're catching on
13:07through social media would be
13:09a reinforcement uh of being led down a
13:12path and having that constantly
13:13reinforced because of this problem of
13:17following your line of interest and the
13:19way that that plays out now with social
13:20media
13:21they're not getting the alternative view
13:23so they're increasingly locked into
13:25review this is my problem
13:26and and here's the answer and that's
13:28affirmed all the way
13:31that's right i spoke to a young woman
13:33benju who talked about at 13
13:36going online and experimenting by
13:38identifying as trans
13:39online and she was showered with
13:42affection and congratulations from
13:44adults and it made her feel amazing
13:47she was 13 years old she she was not had
13:50trouble socially
13:52to had a difficult you know family life
13:54and she was being showered with
13:56congratulations by adults
13:58who told her she was so brave and they
14:00were so proud of her
14:01and eventually of course you know many
14:03of these adults reached out and asked
14:05for
14:06you know pictures and things like that
14:07they weren't actually so
14:09friendly but the influences that are
14:11available to young people today
14:13and ready to encourage them down this
14:16road
14:17that are really legion and
14:21and somehow rather there's a status now
14:24associated with being a victim being
14:26someone who's in need has been
14:28misunderstood
14:29who's been pushed aside uh and not
14:32reinforced
14:34there's it's almost uh a friend of mine
14:37put it as though
14:38the new victims of the new aristocrats
14:42there seems to be even amongst kids from
14:45girls from
14:46middle class backgrounds who really have
14:48been quite materially fortunate
14:50but they're lonely and they feel
14:52victimized and isolated and
14:54that victimhood thing emerges again
14:57that's right you know at the very moment
14:59these young women are trying to
15:00individuate they're being told that a
15:01lot of what they are is bad
15:03they're being told that being white is
15:05unforgivable they're born with the
15:07irredeemable sin of racism in america
15:09they've
15:10you know we've largely bought into that
15:12certainly at school
15:13um they're being told that being a woman
15:16means to be a victim they certainly get
15:17that message
15:18through um in a bad way it means being
15:22abused um so they certainly get that
15:24message from online porn which is tends
15:26to be very very violent
15:27so the and these these girls aren't
15:30spending that much time in
15:32with each other in person they have
15:33trouble making friends
15:35so you know the temptation to escape
15:38into this identity that's so
15:40valorized at school and with their
15:42therapists and with their teachers
15:44it's very seductive
15:48a friend of mine who's doing some
15:49research in this area towards a phd in
15:51australia
15:52uh told me that he is beginning to think
15:55that porn you just mentioned it is quite
15:56a factor for a lot of girls here because
15:59um if they are socialising with boys
16:01they're being asked to do things that
16:02they
16:03just find abhorrent or if they try them
16:05uh deeply painful and hurtful
16:08if they're not they're seeing it or
16:09hearing about it on online
16:11and they're thinking if this what if
16:13this is what i have to put up with as a
16:14girl
16:15maybe i'm not so keen on it is that a
16:17factor as well
16:18absolutely um online porn is very
16:21violent
16:22they see it at very young ages and
16:23remember you know in america especially
16:26you know i don't
16:27you know i don't know what your your
16:28movies are like although i i know that
16:30many of them come from america
16:31but we have essentially stopped making
16:34romantic comedies so this generation
16:37you know really pins its hopes you know
16:39the things that young women used to pin
16:41their hopes on
16:42were the romance they would see on on on
16:44the big screen
16:45and today when they go to their screens
16:48what they see between men and women is
16:49really is really scary
16:51to a girl of 11. frankly it's scary to
16:54older women too but especially to young
16:56girls who are just
16:57you know starting to think about romance
16:59and sex for the first time
17:02it dismissed me to stop and think we've
17:04had a
17:05a lot of emphasis recently about poor
17:07behavior in our parliaments in this
17:09country
17:09uh men misbehaving particularly uh
17:13and girls being the victim of poor
17:16behavior
17:17um and we seem to have managed somehow
17:19or rather to have so
17:20scrubbed romance out of the situation
17:22that
17:24that sex has moved from being the
17:28ultimate expression of
17:29intimacy and respect and love
17:32to one where it can be just an
17:34expression of loathing hatred
17:36denigration and destruction and lack of
17:40respect
17:41and this is uh nothing short of of a
17:44human tragedy to my
17:46way of thinking um one wonders whether
17:48many of these young people have any
17:50notion
17:52of of romance and of love and of
17:55commitment and of tenderness
17:57and and and joy and relationship
18:01it really is a tragedy i mean these
18:02young people are having less sex
18:04by far than prior generations even less
18:06likely to have a kiss or any romantic
18:08involvement
18:09and and look you know it's it it goes
18:12along with a certain level of
18:14unhappiness they're a desperately
18:16unhappy generation
18:17you know by by every metric um now and
18:20i'm not saying that you know
18:22young teenagers need to be having lots
18:24of sex you know i'm not i'm not saying
18:26that but i'm talking about even romance
18:27even touching
18:28is far down is way down for this for
18:31this generation
18:32and and of course touching is very
18:34important in human
18:36uh happiness well we we certainly know
18:39that don't we from the romanian
18:42orphans who grew up dysfunctional
18:45essentially because they were not picked
18:46up not hugged not touched
18:48no physical contact but the the raw
18:51numbers are really quite staggering and
18:54i think between in just five years from
18:562015 to 2020 there was a 400 percent
19:01rise in referrals for children with
19:03gender
19:04gender identity issues at the tavistock
19:06center which is a very interesting place
19:08in london
19:10and and a big shift from boys to girls
19:12being treated
19:14and in 2018 two percent or two in 100
19:18of american high school students claim
19:20to be transgender as opposed to the
19:22historical figure
19:24from among the general population of
19:260.01
19:281 in 10 000. so they're now saying the
19:31numbers are even higher
19:32in america they're much higher than when
19:34that study was taken even
19:36we're now saying upwards of 10 or
19:39something i mean
19:40of adolescence very very high rates of
19:42identification as
19:44lgbtq remember these are kids with
19:46almost no romantic
19:47or sexual experience but they are they
19:50are choosing exotic identities that sort
19:52of
19:52win them praise from their peers
19:56right and you wouldn't see that as
19:59as simply they're able to talk about it
20:01now so
20:02they're coming out whereas once they hit
20:04it you would see that as
20:06being driven by social factors
20:09right because you know i'm often asked
20:12about that and the reason i
20:14i do think that it's driven by social
20:16factors of course
20:17is because the stigma has gone down for
20:19everyone
20:20so we should see a large rise in older
20:23women
20:24women in their 30s 40s and 50s coming
20:26out as transgender but we're not seeing
20:28that
20:28we're seeing the same age group that
20:30falls for every other social contagion
20:32and we're seeing it within peer groups
20:35yeah
20:36that sort of figure alone though that
20:37reality alone should
20:39should cause people to ask a very dark
20:41question
20:42deep questions what about the split
20:44between male and female
20:46i mean it used to be mainly boys you
20:48said earlier but that's now been
20:49reversed
20:50that's right now it's overwhelmingly uh
20:53young
20:54teenage girls with no childhood history
20:56so you can see it really doesn't look
20:57like traditional gender dysphoria at all
21:00um and and for probably for that reason
21:02these girls who who do transition
21:04um you're not seeing you know the
21:07satisfaction
21:09and you know good signs of of of
21:12happiness and well-being that you would
21:14look for by objective measures um
21:17so you know which is the reason i wrote
21:20the book if these young women were
21:21thriving i wouldn't have written it
21:24but but they don't seem to be at all
21:26that's a really important point i mean
21:28to those who would
21:29say that you're being cruel or unfair or
21:31not scientific or whatever
21:33we face this reality that as adults we
21:36ought to stop denying our children are
21:38caught in a culture war of our making
21:40and they are deeply unhappy
21:41our numbers in australia reflect that
21:44why people are
21:45not being more honest on asking
21:47themselves the hard questions about
21:49what's happening in our society and in
21:50our schools
21:51when you've got record levels of
21:53depression anxiety and self-harm
21:55i think it's a very poor reflection on
21:57us can we tease this out a bit more
21:59what about the sort of socio-economic
22:01backgrounds of the girls who are
22:02presenting in such large num
22:04numbers is there is there a pattern
22:06emerging there are there
22:08racial distinctions for example um is it
22:11happening across the board or is it
22:13largely
22:13as i don't want to put words in your
22:15mouth a white middle class
22:18middle income bulge here
22:21it seems to be a white middle and upper
22:23middle class phenomenon highly educated
22:26parents um highly anxious girls very
22:29precocious very bright
22:30now look i've also talked to minority
22:32parents who are going through this
22:34but um you know and and actually
22:37minority
22:38adolescents who have who have
22:40transitioned but
22:41by and large um it does seem to be
22:44um you know uh driven by white girls
22:48it also should send warning bells off
22:52about what's happening here what's
22:53really happening here
22:55um to come to kiera bell the
22:58young english lady who must now be about
23:0023 or 24 went to the tavistock center
23:03i think as a 13 or 14 year old
23:06had nothing but the affirmation model
23:09undertook a course of drugs
23:11to um uh you know turn her
23:15she now speaks with a deep voice and
23:16shaves
23:18and deeply regrets the fact that she was
23:21subjected to the affirmation affirmation
23:23affirmation model
23:25i think i'm right hand saying that she
23:28says that she may not have listened if
23:29she'd been told to wait but she wishes
23:31deeply that she had and the courts made
23:34some
23:34very profound
23:37findings including that children under
23:41the age of 16
23:43were not in a position to be able to
23:44make these decisions on their own
23:46which flies absolutely in the face of
23:48the medical activism
23:50that is so rampant that you spoke of
23:52earlier
23:53what can we learn from the america from
23:56the british experience and
23:57and has it started to inject any common
23:59sense anyway
24:01well certainly hasn't injected much
24:03common sense in america i mean we have
24:05almost the identical protocols in
24:06america that they have in britain
24:08for you know immediately affirming and
24:10fast-tracking
24:11these young people to transition and the
24:14british court the british high court of
24:16justice was horrified when it examined
24:18these protocols
24:19that young women in great straight
24:21states of distress
24:22who were minors were being fast-tracked
24:25to
24:25surrendering their um their fertility
24:29um and and committing you know
24:31irreversible damage to themselves
24:33um at ages when they really didn't have
24:36the capacity
24:37to consent um this should have sent
24:40shock waves through american
24:42medicine australian you know as well and
24:45i can tell you in america it did not it
24:47was largely unreported
24:48in america people turned the other way
24:51and the
24:52young activist doctors and you see this
24:54all the time activist doctors and
24:56activist lawyers
24:57at in america they work very hard to
24:59discredit
25:00and smear the detransitioners as if they
25:03are somehow disloyal
25:05for sharing their own take in fact with
25:0860 minutes our you know our well
25:10well um you know watched news program
25:13tried to air an episode that dealt with
25:16women like kyra bell young d
25:18transitioners women who
25:19in america who felt they were
25:21fast-tracked and regretted it
25:23um activists swarmed the you know um
25:27the show and tried to get them not to
25:28air it tried to get i think it's nbc not
25:31to air it
25:32um so you see it's it's
25:35they're they're treated terribly
25:37detransitioners
25:38and that's what they come up against if
25:40they dare come forward with their own
25:42experience
25:43and and their own feeling this is way
25:45too fast for these young girls
25:48abigail you're an investigative
25:50journalist
25:51and investigators you know we owe
25:54western society owes investigative
25:56journalists a huge amount because
25:58traditionally you've relentlessly gone
26:00after the facts after the evidence
26:02you know where does the evidence lead
26:04you
26:05as sort of uh you know version i suppose
26:07of the sort of scientific model
26:10why what you've just described is now so
26:12common there's this sort of
26:14confusion of thinking with feeling um
26:18and and and a refusal to engage
26:21with the facts even when
26:24they are so disturbing that any sane
26:28person would say we've got to stop and
26:30listen and look
26:31what has happened in your view you must
26:33have seen a lot of this
26:34in your life as a journalist this
26:36massive shift that's really accelerated
26:38over the last decade or so
26:40to the point we now have where the facts
26:42don't seem to matter very much
26:45and i think one of the reasons is um
26:47social media we are living in an
26:49era of profound intellectual conformity
26:52in america
26:53certainly not one that i've ever
26:55experienced in my lifetime i was born in
26:561978
26:58and i've never seen this kind of
27:00intellectual conformity
27:02and a lot of it has to do with you know
27:03everybody getting in line
27:05on facebook so that you know none of us
27:07is cancelled and that sort of thing
27:09um and um and and so we're
27:12absolutely afraid to look at evidence
27:15and in fact if you dare to share
27:17evidence you see this with
27:19you know brett weinstein who tried to
27:21talk about and heather hein who tried to
27:22talk about
27:23some of their concerns with various
27:25vaccines they
27:26they lost you know they their youtube
27:29channels were demonetized
27:31you can lose real income you can lose
27:33friends you can lose your family
27:35pictures
27:36if you dare examine the evidence in
27:38america
27:39and that's when social media will even
27:41allow it because very often they just
27:43censor things they don't want you to see
27:46and yet there is a tremendous pushback
27:48and you're part of it i mean
27:49you've been ruthlessly honest and very
27:51courageous
27:52in standing by what your research
27:54reveals
27:56um part of what i'd like to talk about
27:59towards you know
28:00in a few minutes is is how do we as
28:02ordinary individuals and how do people
28:04listening to you mean
28:05talking now grappling with all of this
28:07withstand this barriers
28:10of emotionally charged hysteria
28:13that's directed at you if you dare to
28:15break the conformity
28:17look i don't know i i think to to be
28:20honest to some extent i was just
28:22you know sort of meant for this i mean i
28:25can't you know it sort of works with my
28:27personality in a way that it doesn't
28:29work for others i don't i'm not
28:31sure why but i you know i
28:34uh you know i guess a psychologist would
28:36tell you i probably highly disagreeable
28:38or
28:38that sort of thing um but i think
28:42that the truth is the emperor's has no
28:45clothes
28:45and the more people realize that
28:47everybody knows this
28:50i have been contacted by people across
28:52the political spectrum
28:53and i mean across the political spectrum
28:55from the furthest left
28:57all the way to the right who say you
28:59know what i really liked your book and i
29:01agree with it
29:02and it's because the book is really just
29:04common sense it just calls for caution
29:07and examining the hypothesis of whether
29:09these girls are acting under social
29:11influence
29:12and whether they should be getting this
29:13drug these medications
29:15and surgeries with so little oversight
29:18that's it that's my terrible sin
29:20and the idea that that's somehow
29:22dangerous as the american booksellers
29:24association recently called me
29:26is ludicrous i mean it really is
29:28laughable and americans are really
29:29waking up to that
29:31yeah that's well that's that's
29:32encouraging and indeed a quite senior
29:34journalist with a left-wing newspaper in
29:36australia recently told me
29:38they were going to write a story on this
29:40and quote something i'd said
29:42and she actually fetched up to me she
29:44said we've decided not to write it
29:46because every time we write on this we
29:48get slaughtered by both sides
29:50now to drill into the numbers again a
29:52bit and to go back to this idea of
29:53affirmation
29:54we're told that you have to affirm
29:58lest you push the child towards suicide
30:02another first problem i have with that
30:03is that i thought if you were concerned
30:05about
30:06people engaging in self-harm you didn't
30:08talk about it
30:10but that's what you're immediately told
30:11by the activists in very loud
30:13voluminous terms in knowing certain ways
30:17that
30:17that you're risking it uh and i gather
30:20there's no evidence for it but in fact
30:21you suggest there may be evidence for
30:23precisely the opposite
30:24that there may be a correlation between
30:26the rise in transgender affirmation
30:29and a mental health and suicide crisis
30:31amongst girls
30:34and i'd just be interested in it am i
30:36understanding
30:37that you may have seen some of this
30:40well i think that that anxiety and
30:42depression
30:43go along with looking for answers in the
30:46culture as to what's wrong with you
30:48or what's wrong with me why do i feel
30:50this way so i do think that that that's
30:52part
30:53of now that's not all of the explanation
30:55but do you think that's part of why
30:56these girls
30:57are at you know high rates of of a
31:00suicidal ideation
31:01but i want to say something about what
31:02you just said it is so
31:04unforgivably irresponsible for the
31:07activist doctors
31:08who have gone on the news and they've
31:10done this in america
31:12to attack me and attack my book and say
31:14that
31:15young people will kill themselves
31:16because of my book that is an
31:18unforgivable statement by a doctor
31:20because they know that suicide is itself
31:23a contagion
31:24and they that is something that no
31:26decent mental health professional would
31:28ever
31:29say in public over and over and they do
31:32it
31:32that's the level of callousness
31:35and and and frankly ideological
31:38obsession
31:39of the young woke activist doctors
31:43yeah i i take that on board that is my
31:46understanding and you spelt it out in
31:47very blunt terms and i think there's a
31:49challenge there for anybody with a
31:51with a shred of intellectual or moral
31:53integrity about them to take that on
31:55board
31:56and to be more measured in what they say
31:58about this because the evidence
32:00is is telling us quite clearly you
32:01referred to something very interesting
32:02again
32:03a moment ago about people who have
32:05buyer's regret who later in their lives
32:08deeply regret what they've um what
32:10they've done
32:11and there are more and more of them all
32:12the time that again should send off the
32:14warning
32:15bells everywhere it should
32:18and i just want to say you know the
32:19young women i've i've interviewed and
32:21i've come to know in the last year
32:23who have de-transitioned these are
32:25wonderful young people
32:27they're you know young women who
32:28detransition their life isn't over
32:30sometimes people talk about them as if
32:32their life is over and it really isn't
32:34these are
32:34remarkable young women who have achieved
32:36a certain level of wisdom
32:38um based on what they've been through
32:40but but life is certainly
32:42hard because they did do these things to
32:44their bodies
32:46and that's not something any of us would
32:48want for our young you know for our
32:50daughters for
32:50for young people especially if they're
32:52going to regret it
32:54yeah um i was in britain um in 2018 and
32:58there was a story about tavistock at
33:00that stage
33:01uh in in the newspapers again it didn't
33:03get a lot of publicity but it was there
33:06uh and it was a bunch of doctors warning
33:09that um one of the problems was that
33:13these girls
33:14particularly didn't have explained to
33:17them that puberty blockers
33:19very likely would mean that they could
33:20never have children and that they were
33:23calling for at least
33:24that to be put before the children and
33:26who who were suffering in this way
33:28and the parents part of the rejoinder
33:30was that the girls are so
33:33absorbed by what they've learned the
33:34affirmation they've had that you talked
33:36about earlier that they don't stop and
33:38think
33:38good goodness i might want children one
33:41day so they won't hear it anyway
33:43but it seems staggering to me that as i
33:46understand it they're talking about
33:47irreversible effects
33:49and and regretting it later on that
33:53going on puberty blockers are not having
33:55to explain to you that it may mean
33:56you'll never have children
33:59at an age when they're not thinking
34:01about not wanting children it's not top
34:02of mind
34:03but they will most most people further
34:06down the road will
34:07that sort of dishonesty just seems to me
34:09to be
34:11you have to wonder whether it points
34:12towards a money trail as much as
34:14anything else
34:15look i've talked to you know parents who
34:18weren't warned of that parents who took
34:20their kids to gender clinics
34:22um you know believing that this was the
34:25only way to save their kids
34:26from suicide and were never told by the
34:28doctors they saw
34:30that this could lead to permanent sexual
34:32dysfunction
34:33um so you know the amount of pushing
34:36this this that goes on in in the united
34:39states
34:40is really egregious and the fact that a
34:43book that
34:44that asks for caution because ultimately
34:46that's all my book
34:47urges is caution the fact that that book
34:50would be
34:50so you know castigated um is is just
34:54just shows you sort of that we're in a
34:56grips of a kind of
34:57you know you know illiberalism um
35:00that i i hope we're i hope we're waking
35:02up from
35:04tell me something else what did your
35:06research did your research
35:08reveal a great deal about the
35:12um
35:15family structures that are more likely
35:17to lead
35:18a young person to a state of confusion
35:21and unhappiness
35:22i know that's a sensitive subject but
35:24it's one we can't run away from i think
35:26yes people often ask and the answer is
35:29no
35:30this does not tend to happen in divorced
35:32families
35:33necessarily i have seen very happily
35:35married
35:36parents but look i'm i'm returning you
35:40know
35:40for my for my next book i hope to return
35:42to this generation because
35:44even young people raised in in to
35:47stable families where the parents are
35:50still married
35:51um we're seeing very high rates of
35:53anxiety and depression in their young
35:54people
35:55so i do think it's an ongoing mystery as
35:57to why
35:58and what to do about it right that's
36:01interesting
36:02uh and important to know uh but a sort
36:06of related question
36:07do we know anything about um the
36:10influence of
36:11of sexual education in schools
36:14relationship
36:14training um pastoral care in schools
36:18in the education system generally
36:20speaking we had a program in australia
36:22an anti-bullying program it was called
36:24safe schools became very controversial
36:26very controversial indeed
36:28and an independent review found that it
36:30inflated the percentage of people who
36:32were allegedly transgender
36:34and it taught children encourage them in
36:36the view that their gender is entirely
36:38up to them to what extent can we know um
36:42whether schools are partially
36:43responsible or what's happening in our
36:44schools
36:45right so part of the investigation i did
36:47was into the public school system and i
36:49looked at california which is
36:51you know probably our most progressive
36:52public school system and
36:54um i found that we were that they were
36:56teaching from kindergarten up
36:59um this very radical gender ideology
37:02started you know with five-year-olds you
37:04know preschool can what we call
37:06kindergarten
37:07and um although all through the school
37:09system
37:10and of course this encourages the idea
37:13that if there's something it
37:14teaches kids outright that only they
37:17know their true gender
37:18and there's a whole system in the school
37:20ready and waiting for them to declare
37:22one of their exotic gender identities
37:24and then to
37:25fill out a form so that they promise to
37:27keep it this from the parents
37:28so this has definitely been going on in
37:31in america and of course then when the
37:32young person reaches adolescence
37:35and goes through a period of distress
37:36and sometimes you know
37:38feels bad about themselves the idea that
37:41this
37:41that their source of their distress is
37:43gender readily leaps to mind
37:46then you must have a lot of parents
37:47coming to you
37:49you really must asking for advice how do
37:51i handle this
37:52what general advice do you and can you
37:55can you
37:56safely give without ending up on the
37:57wrong side of the law that allows public
37:59opinion
38:01sure about your parents okay
38:04um i i am i'm flooded with parents i
38:06have so many parents i probably have
38:08talked to well over a thousand parents
38:10at this point um
38:12but i'm you know there are a few things
38:14that i i tell i mean first of all i'm
38:15not a psychologist i always say that
38:17but a few things i i do think um
38:20certainly pushing back on gender
38:21ideology in the schools
38:23is a must i think depending on the age
38:25of your daughter getting her off social
38:27media is really important
38:29um and and this is perhaps the most
38:32important thing of
38:33all you know do trust yourself as the
38:37parent
38:38if the so-called expert is leading your
38:41daughter
38:41or child down a path that you don't
38:44think is right for her
38:45trust yourself to know better than these
38:47experts because these so-called experts
38:49are doing at this rate i think a lot of
38:51them are doing more harm than good
38:55and yet they seem to be on the winning
38:56side i'd imagine you see
38:58health professionals right around the
39:01world now who dare to challenge this
39:03finding that they're not just on the
39:04outer that their careers are somehow
39:06damaged by it
39:09right so so it's true they got a big
39:12head start
39:13because a lot of parents especially
39:15liberal parents who were more
39:16open-minded to these experts i think
39:19in america they they took their parent
39:21their children
39:22in good faith to these so-called experts
39:25who
39:25they couldn't imagine would go behind
39:27their backs in this way
39:29but but unfortunately a lot of these
39:31social workers therapists
39:33teachers were convinced that these
39:36short amount of time they spent with the
39:38child maybe as little as 45 minutes
39:41one 45-minute session per week that was
39:44enough to know that the child was
39:45transgender and they were willing to
39:47help
39:47help the child in secret to figure out
39:50how to transition
39:51that was go that has been going on in
39:53america for some time
39:55and it's led to the explosion you know
39:57it's part of
39:58what's led to the explosion that we're
39:59seeing
40:01i know the research in australia shows
40:03that uh
40:05one of one of the top of mind issues
40:09amongst voters in this country is in
40:11fact ideology as they put it
40:13it might be lucy called in the classroom
40:16and it reflects that deep fear of not
40:19knowing where they stand and how to deal
40:22with
40:23uh the whole situation if
40:26if a child comes home and says i'm
40:28trapped
40:29in the wrong body it's a very
40:32very frightening thing for people to
40:35have to deal with because
40:37it's uh it's only what 15 years ago
40:40the idea would not have occurred to
40:42people as
40:45logical and defensible now as you're
40:48somehow
40:49evil and wicked and outside the circle
40:51of respectability if you dare to
40:53question these ideas
40:55it's very very confusing for parents and
40:58for
40:59the broader community yes and i think
41:02look the reason at the end of the day my
41:04book has always
41:06you know generated so much um
41:09you know alarm it is really because it
41:12reaches
41:12parents across both you know across the
41:14political aisle
41:16uh aisles um you know my book is not a
41:18conservative book it's not a liberal
41:20book it really is a common sense
41:22investigation for
41:23you know that that a lot of parents and
41:25even adolescents have really
41:27felt found benefits them and because
41:29it's not easy to pigeonhole
41:31um because it it really isn't about any
41:34one policy
41:35um i don't advocate for a political you
41:37know
41:38any political outlaw comes in the book
41:41um because it's just an
41:42investigation that has really changed
41:45the minds of a lot of parents
41:46um they the activists really want to
41:48shut it down
41:50well if you argue as i would that
41:52politics is
41:53and should be downstream of culture
41:56politics shouldn't come into it
41:58this ought to be a matter you know for
42:01um
42:02our real lives apart from politics and
42:04politics ought to reflect the
42:06community's views
42:07on these things uh but there's uh
42:10the the problem with social media in
42:12many ways is it's given a microphone if
42:14you're a megaphone
42:16uh beyond anybody's wildest imaginations
42:19for the propaganda
42:20of propagandisation of of extraordinary
42:23views
42:24and taking them forward how we wind that
42:27back
42:28in an age like this it's a really
42:32tough question but are you optimistic
42:34that we might have reached
42:36a high water mark here that that the
42:38whole thing is
42:39there's so much overreach for one of a
42:41better word that people might say
42:43whoa come on we're going to back off
42:45we're going to retreat to something a
42:46bit more sensible here
42:49i don't know it's hard for me to express
42:52optimism but i will say this
42:54that it's important that we as you say
42:58um leave politics downstream from this
43:00this isn't about politics
43:02our young people are getting so harmed
43:04by social media in
43:05so many different ways and one of them
43:08is that
43:08they are being exposed and really
43:11soaking
43:12in these really radical ideologies
43:15um and they're just not spending enough
43:17time with each other
43:19now they are they're they're
43:21self-harming in rates we've never seen
43:23before
43:23i mean what will it take to pull you
43:25know pull young people from there
43:28from these devices and i i think the
43:30answer is going to have to be
43:32parents finally putting their foot down
43:36yeah well look i can only uh say to you
43:40i
43:40i salute your
43:43courage and your determination and i
43:46think
43:46what what you're doing is incredibly
43:49important
43:50and you're saying when you say that
43:53you're not quite sure
43:54how this is going to play out that in
43:56itself is quite chilling
43:58but at least you won't have to die
43:59wondering whether you saw a problem and
44:01didn't seek to address it
44:03and i i just think what you've had to
44:05say is incredibly valuable
44:07as is the book which of course i
44:08recommend to anybody watching or
44:10listening to our conversation i
44:12i can't thank you enough and salute you
44:14enough for what you're doing
44:16thank you that's very kind i really
44:17appreciate that
44:19thank you for watching this episode if
44:22you value vital conversations like this
44:24one
44:24please like share subscribe and join the
44:34conversation
44:36you

About this transcript

This page contains the full transcript of Abigail Shrier | Social Contagion and Gender Identity by John Anderson Media, generated from the public captions YouTube serves with the video. The transcript has 7,506 words across 1,340 segments, with the original timestamps preserved so you can click any line to jump to that moment in the embedded player.

What you can do with it

Use the transcript to take notes, quote the speaker, build a study guide, generate a summary with ChatGPT or Claude via the YouTube Summary tool, or export it as a timed subtitle file with YouTube to SRT. You can also re-open it in the transcriber to translate the transcript into 100+ languages.

Free YouTube transcript tool

YouTube2Text is a free YouTube transcript generator — no signup, no daily limit. Paste any YouTube link and get the full transcript instantly, with timestamps, click-to-jump, translation to 100+ languages, AI prompts for ChatGPT, Claude, and Gemini, and exports to TXT, SRT, VTT, or Markdown.