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A Rational Mystics Guide To Consciousness & Awakening | Sam Harris — Transcript

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0:00it's just a fact about us that we're
0:01thinking basically every moment of the
0:03day we're having a conversation with
0:04ourselves we're remembering the past
0:06we're anticipating the future we're
0:08subtly failing to make actual contact
0:11with the present moment if you're angry
0:13for 10 hours there's a lot you can do in
0:1510 hours to derange your life and your
0:17relationships I've always found it so
0:19interesting that we can spend a lifetime
0:22suffering something that is essentially
0:23a nonevent you know you're making a cup
0:25of tea and you're thinking about a
0:28meeting that you're going to have in 5
0:31days and you're getting anxious
0:33meditation is the remedy for that and
0:36once you can practice mindfulness
0:39negative states of mind like fear and
0:41anger begin to function like mindfulness
0:43alarms you know the truth is breaking
0:45the spell doesn't even require the
0:48contents of Consciousness to change what
0:50do you feel as a likelihood that we will
0:52engineer Consciousness into
0:53superintelligent AGI yeah that's a
0:56difficult question to resolve
1:01[Music]
1:03hello beautiful beings welcome back to
1:05the know thyself podcast where every
1:07single week we get the honor and
1:09privilege to sit down with a brilliant
1:10mind and open heart to see how we can
1:12learn more about the true nature of self
1:15and the world around us at deeper and
1:16deeper levels my guest today is the
1:19creator of the waking up app he is a
1:21bestselling author a philosopher a
1:24neuroscientist and host of The Making
1:27Sense podcast uh he really needs no
1:29introduction but I will say that his
1:31life his message the work that he does
1:33in the world has been profoundly
1:34influential for me over the years in my
1:37development and study um about a lot of
1:40the things that we're going to be diving
1:41into today it's not just the topics of
1:43life that he's so emphatically
1:45interested in that I also share deep
1:47passions for and that hold that I hold
1:48close to my heart but the way in which
1:51he engages in exploring such topics like
1:54Consciousness free will the nature of
1:56self um who and what we are and it's
2:00been such a pleasure to be able to
2:02recently connect with him and I've been
2:03looking forward to this for for quite
2:05some time so the goal with my
2:08conversation and stewarding the this the
2:10framework for this conversation today is
2:11to really demystify what it means to
2:13awaken and to go on the Journey of
2:16tangibly exploring what that what that
2:18really means and uh and much much more
2:20so without further Ado uh let's welcome
2:23to the no theyself podcast the rational
2:25Mystic himself Dr Sam Harris
2:30aspired to be that nice yeah cool well
2:32great to meet you again and happy to be
2:35here my pleasure my honor been looking
2:37forward to this like I said for for a
2:38while and uh let's just Dive Right In
2:41you know this being the know thyself
2:42show uh figured no better place to start
2:45than the self and something that we both
2:47share a lot of uh deep personal uh
2:51passions for inquiring within
2:52experientially but then also
2:54intellectually and I would love for you
2:56to open and share your thoughts on what
2:58do you feel like most people me mean
3:00when they refer to themselves as a self
3:03and how the process of suffering and
3:06imagined self essentially unfolds yeah
3:10yeah uh good question well uh I don't
3:13know that I have any like a final answer
3:16on that topic but I
3:18think uh there's a few things I believe
3:21that are that I believe pretty firmly
3:23here one is that the conventional sense
3:26of self that people are walking around
3:28with is an illusion which can be
3:31discovered to be such right so you can
3:33you can uh inspect it to the point where
3:37you no longer feel that way in the same
3:40sense and it's not to say that you would
3:43never use the word self again or that
3:45that you know you find yourself uh to be
3:48the same as other people or just you
3:50can't differentiate yourself from the
3:52world or I mean there's there there are
3:54um things that don't happen but it's
3:57important to just say at the outset that
3:59that there's this is worth looking into
4:01because psychologically it's incredibly
4:03helpful and I think ultimately ethically
4:05it's incredibly helpful to come down to
4:07some understanding that what you take
4:10yourself to be subjectively moment to
4:13moment matters and can be the the Lynch
4:17pin of of really all of your unnecessary
4:20suffering right so you um it's worth
4:24looking into so that the feeling of self
4:26that I think most people are walking
4:28around with by default is the sense that
4:31there's a subject interior to the body
4:34that is the Thinker and doer and a true
4:39agent of conscious life uh so it's it's
4:42not that people
4:43feel identical to their bodies they feel
4:47almost like passengers in their bodies
4:48they feel like they have bodies um now
4:52you know I think there's a lot of
4:53rational people who don't believe that
4:55to be true if you tell a if you if you
4:57tell a scientist that he doesn't feel
4:58identical to his body
5:00body um he might object because he knows
5:05himself to be you know conceptually
5:06identical to his body he knows that
5:08there's if he doesn't believe in an
5:10immortal soul that can be separated from
5:13the body well then he believes that he's
5:14identical to his brain and the totality
5:17of what it's doing neurologically in his
5:20body um but as a matter of
5:25experience nevertheless most people what
5:27whatever they believe they feel
5:30that they're not quite identical to
5:32their whole body they don't they have
5:34hands they can imagine being without
5:36hands they uh and that that sense of
5:39dualism extends really to everything
5:42they can notice about their their their
5:45physical bodies um and I think you know
5:49most people would imagine that you know
5:51even if they're
5:53materialists the what they are as
5:55conscious agents is a matter of what the
5:58brain is doing and if you could you know
6:00have a brain transplant you would expect
6:02to go with the brain and not remain with
6:05the body right so if you took my brain
6:06and put it in another body I would
6:08expect to move over there um you know at
6:11minimum people feel like they are their
6:14brains but they experience doesn't give
6:19us any evidence of of even having brains
6:21right much less that the brain is is is
6:23relevant to to the nature of
6:25Consciousness or the nature of what our
6:26minds are doing so um you uh
6:30it's worth differentiating what people
6:32conceptually know about the biology and
6:36and you know and the mind's dependency
6:39on the brain uh and what they feel
6:42subjectively and and just
6:44phenomenologically how they they move
6:46through life and there I think virtually
6:48everyone feels like they are a thinker
6:50of thoughts a an experiencer of
6:53experience a subject very likely in the
6:57head behind their eyes looking at at a
6:59world that is not them that is separate
7:03from what they are as as conscious
7:05agents and in some sense that World
7:08includes the body and the body can
7:09malfunction you've got a pain in your
7:11knee and you feel as the subject not
7:14identical to that pain but in relation
7:17to it and you're resisting it from a
7:18point outside the pain you are receiving
7:21the pain as a as a kind of locus of
7:24conscious Consciousness you can pay
7:26attention to it you can try to be
7:27distracted from it uh uh and then you
7:30the pain can draw you back um and yet
7:33you are up here somehow as a subject and
7:36if you do a practice like meditation
7:38something like mindfulness and you
7:40inspect that feeling of dualism where
7:42there's a sense of a a subject that can
7:44pay attention to experience and then get
7:46distracted by thought and then come back
7:49and pay attention to experience um that
7:52sense that there's a place from which
7:54you can focus uh and then be be that's
7:58the meditator that's you know you now
8:00trying to
8:01meditate uh that dualism gets maintained
8:04Even in our spiritual efforts to
8:07recognize something about the
8:08illusoriness of the self I mean there
8:09are many people who are practicing
8:12meditation even quite diligently and
8:15even going on Retreats you know silent
8:17Retreats for 10 days at a stretch or
8:19more um and yet still they feel like
8:24they are the The Observer of experience
8:26now they're they're the one being
8:28mindful or struggling to be mind mindful
8:30they're the one who gets concentrated on
8:32the breath or on a mantra or it can be
8:34any practice really um and yet there's
8:38still this dualism of there's the
8:41Consciousness feels like it's a a kind
8:44of Spotlight of attention that you can
8:46aim from a place in the head at
8:50experience and
8:53ultimately that's an illusion ultimately
8:55there if if you pay close enough
8:58attention you recogn ize that there's
9:00only experience as a matter of of of
9:03subjectivity right now I'm not making
9:05any claims about how Consciousness
9:08relates to the universe or you know that
9:09it was here before the Big Bang or that
9:11there's no no physical world we can
9:13leave all that aside for the moment I'm
9:15happy happy to talk about that but I'm
9:17just talking about what what what is
9:19available to experience if you're really
9:21paying attention if you really notice
9:23what is happening moment to moment and
9:26The crucial difference between dualis
9:29and not and ultimately suffering and not
9:33is at
9:35bottom identification with the stream of
9:38thought that's arising in Consciousness
9:41so it just it's just a fact about us
9:44that we're thinking basically every
9:45moment of the day we're having a
9:47conversation with ourselves we're we're
9:48remembering the past we're anticipating
9:51the future we're
9:53subtly fail you subtly or grossly
9:55failing to make actual contact with the
9:57present moment because everything is
9:59being conceptualized and rehearsed and
10:03reiterated and reacted to judged Etc um
10:09and it's through this sort of scrim of
10:12of thought that everything is perceived
10:15and and even one's initial efforts to to
10:17meditate and break through to something
10:20non-conceptual gets kind of bent and
10:24conformed to this pattern of thinking
10:26now you're thinking that you're being
10:27mindful now you're thinking oh and now I
10:30need to pay closer attention to the
10:31breath and oh why did I get distracted
10:33and and but that that sense of of self
10:38that seems to seems to persist even as
10:42you notice thoughts arise and then you
10:46come back to the object of meditation
10:48and you notice thought that there's
10:50still this undercurrent of thinking
10:52that's not being fully inspected and
10:55fully released and so ultimately me to
10:58come a very long winded way of answering
11:00your question ultimately this sense of
11:01self that I think most people
11:03are experiencing moment to moment and
11:06that is really the the string upon which
11:08all of their states of psychological
11:10suffering is is are strung is um
11:15identification with thought with
11:17conceptual thought and that
11:19identification with conceptual thought
11:21is very analogous to like being in a
11:23dream of sorts right and I've always
11:25found it so interesting that we and many
11:28people can spend a lifetime suffering
11:31something that is essentially a
11:32non-event that if they did the proper
11:35practices and had the understanding um
11:39that they could actually create space
11:40from their own thought and emotion to
11:42experience self in a more vast context
11:44would be so much more freeing so much
11:46more liberating and so could you share
11:48your thoughts on how thought in general
11:52um and the close identification with
11:55thought is is very much like being
11:56asleep and what it means to essentially
11:59become awake from the
12:01Slumber yeah it's a good analogy and and
12:04it really is more than an analogy
12:06neurologically I think we when we're
12:11thinking uh we are doing
12:14something quite similar to to what we're
12:17doing When We're Dreaming I mean that
12:20when when you're asleep and
12:22dreaming your thinking is no longer
12:25constrained by your sensory experience
12:29right you're no longer perceiving the
12:30world and interacting with the world and
12:32so it's no longer it's no longer
12:35getting trimmed down and interrupted
12:37punctuated by by the you know your your
12:41P your perceptual apparatus all when
12:44you're dreaming it's just it's all
12:46thought right so you get fully captured
12:48by it um but it's it's still very much
12:52the same process uh
12:56and uh so it is a kind of hallucina it's
12:59a kind of you know just as when you're
13:01asleep and dreaming unless you're having
13:04a lucid dream you're not aware that
13:06you're asleep and dreaming your mind
13:07just seamlessly transitions into this
13:09new condition and you don't even
13:12remember enough about your life to to be
13:15to be surprised right you go to sleep
13:17and then all of a sudden you're you know
13:20arguing with a a friend you haven't seen
13:22in 10 years right in a restaurant you've
13:24never been to and you know the you you
13:28are are so
13:30unaware of the reality of your life that
13:34you're not you don't even think to be
13:36surprised by this transition I mean
13:38literally a moment ago you were asleep
13:40and you know safely in your bed and now
13:42you're in some new circum impossible
13:45circumstance rather often and sometimes
13:47it's a total emergency and yet you are
13:49so fully identified with being the
13:51dreamer of the dream that you don't you
13:54don't even register surprise the most
13:56surprising thing about ordinary dreams
13:58is that we're not surprised when they
13:59appear because we it's a complete
14:01failure of reality
14:03testing that is there's something very
14:05similar happening every moment of the
14:07day when we're thinking and we're
14:09unaware that we're thinking I mean
14:10you're just you know you're making a cup
14:12of tea and you're thinking about a
14:15meeting that you're you're going to have
14:17in five days and you're getting anxious
14:21right that is a kind it's it's a
14:23miniature psychosis right it's it's
14:26completely crazy to have to be unaware
14:30of this process where you you begin to
14:32imagine this future circumstance which
14:34may in fact not even resemble the
14:36circumstance you're going to find
14:37yourself in in 5 days U and it is so and
14:42you're unaware of the this process the
14:45thought sneaks up on you uh just as a
14:48dream does and you don't register any
14:51surprise that all of a sudden you're no
14:52longer aware of even making tea you
14:54don't you don't even feel your body in
14:56space you're not you barely see what
14:58your hand are doing and you're you're
15:01elsewhere talking to yourself about some
15:04and and perhaps visualizing some
15:07circumstance and it's it's discouraging
15:11this negative emotional state which
15:13you're then now you know living the
15:16consequences of and that your next
15:17thought very likely is going to be oh my
15:20God why am I this sort of person how do
15:21I you know why why am I anxious about
15:23public speaking what like I gotta you
15:25know maybe I should go to Toast Masters
15:27and you're you're you're thinking right
15:29and you're unaware of this conversation
15:31and it is completely trimming down your
15:34mind to conform to this you know in this
15:37case in an anxious State I mean this is
15:40our this is the character of Our Lives
15:41moment to moment when we don't see a
15:43difference between being identified with
15:45thought and not and just recognizing
15:47thought as a this automaticity that that
15:49just appears in Consciousness all by
15:52itself so I mean there's there's
15:54something very similar between ordinary
15:57thinking and ordinary dreaming and
15:59there's something similar between those
16:00two states and what we recognize to be
16:03psychosis in people who are you know
16:06actually mad and you know walking the
16:08streets talking to themselves and
16:10talking to people who aren't there and
16:11just just living out the consequences of
16:14their Psychopathology in front of all of
16:16us the crucial difference is that
16:18they're you know they're much more you
16:20know their behavior is so unconstrained
16:24you know like like the difference is you
16:26know we're all Talking to Ourselves but
16:29we know enough not to move our mouths
16:31right throughout throughout the day a
16:33psychotic I mean the bright line between
16:35normal Psychopathology and psychosis for
16:38many of us is just the people who can't
16:41help but you know actually verbalize
16:43what they're thinking and they they may
16:46know it's inappropriate or they may just
16:47be so caught they have they're
16:50completely unaware that anyone is
16:51listening to them um but we are we have
16:55this basic psychosis already in Normal
16:59Consciousness I we are talking to people
17:01who aren't there you know we are talk
17:02you're talking to when you're when
17:04you're rehearsing the argument you just
17:06had with your mom or your wife or your
17:08you know somebody in a store and you're
17:11playing it out in memory and it is
17:14kindling this negative emotion of anger
17:16or impatience or frustration or regret
17:18or whatever it is and you're not aware
17:21of all of this and you may be driving
17:22your car and you're you're having this
17:24conversation
17:25covertly in your in your head
17:29I mean it's totally normal but it's
17:31completely crazy it's just it is it is
17:34you know it's nine10 of what a psychotic
17:37has and and yet it's normal so
17:40meditation by for lack of a better word
17:43is the remedy for that and that's and uh
17:46breaking that spell it's not an it's not
17:48an accident that waking up is the the
17:52ancient metaphor for just you what the
17:54process is of of of breaking that spell
17:56and and no longer being identified with
17:58thought
17:59yeah I'd love to keep pulling on this
18:01thread here right because meditation
18:03does allow us to more quickly recognize
18:06the transitory nature of thought and be
18:10often less under the illusion of being
18:12identified as them right and so as
18:15somebody who with your waking up app now
18:17is probably sharing non-u mindfulness
18:21with more people on the planet than
18:22anyone else you have a lot of
18:25understanding and and context for how
18:27meditation and mindfulness in this
18:29process of realizing uh experientially
18:32the transitory nature of thought and how
18:33by doing that on a repeated basis you
18:35can actually start to have more of that
18:38uh lighter experience of Life throughout
18:41anytime you have thought throughout the
18:42day uh is it extremely liberating so i'
18:45would love for you to dive a little bit
18:46more uh into that and how meditation
18:48supports and alleviates the suffering
18:50well I
18:52think most people I I think virtually
18:56everyone has uh
19:00very frequent breaks in this sense of of
19:02self and in the continuity of of
19:04selfhood they just don't recognize it
19:07right so it's it's meditation is the art
19:10of recognizing what is already the case
19:14and and just looking closely enough at
19:16the at the nature of experience to
19:17recognize that there you know the gap
19:19between thoughts actually reveals
19:22something right that there there are
19:23breaks between thoughts naturally and
19:26it's even possible to recognize thought
19:28as thought just appear and disappear
19:31without ever feeling identified with it
19:32so there's a larger space in Awareness
19:37that you can drop back into and
19:38recognize that it feels a certain way it
19:40doesn't feel like a self when you're
19:43just Rec recognizing the flow of thought
19:45as an appearance in Consciousness uh but
19:49you know with or without meditating I
19:51think the the sense of self is there's a
19:54discontinuity that people can notice if
19:57only retrospective itively and it it
20:00offers some Clues to why we find certain
20:02experiences very rewarding like like
20:05watching a film or uh television when
20:10you re when you're really captivated by
20:12it when you really just lose your sense
20:13that you're you know sitting in a darken
20:16theater or sitting in front of a a
20:18screen watching actors do their thing
20:22when you actually just become fully
20:24immersed in the story and you're just
20:26reacting you know you might be
20:28emotionally reacting in to what's
20:29playing out on the screen uh but you're
20:32not you know you you are you're fully
20:35entranced one property of that
20:37experience and I think it's what you
20:39know one aspect of of what people find
20:41so rewarding is that you're you're
20:43losing your sense of self for much of
20:45that time you're just you're you're sort
20:47of Disappearing you're becoming
20:49effectively effaced you're certainly no
20:52longer self-conscious right there's no I
20:54mean that the thing that's truly
20:56rewarding
20:57about watching
20:59you know film and
21:00television is that it is a kind of super
21:03stimulus in evolutionary terms because
21:05what we're what we're evolved to
21:07experience and to be able to navigate
21:09are you know face-to-face social
21:11encounters with other primates and we
21:13you know so we make eye contact and we
21:15and then we look away and you know we
21:17notice what people are doing with their
21:18eyes but and when two people are talking
21:21in front of us we know that at any
21:23moment one of them can turn toward us
21:25and and engage Us in the conversation or
21:27engage Us in some physical conflict we
21:29know that our reputations are always on
21:31the line we and so there's a there's a
21:34sort of a war of selves that is always
21:36happening in in physical space with
21:38other
21:39people and and that you know nothing
21:42matters more to us just genetically than
21:45than kind of maintaining all the
21:47Integrity of all of that
21:49um and yet what happens when we watch a
21:52film or or watch television is that
21:54we're thrust into this completely novel
21:57social situation for which our genes
21:59have not prepared us we're we're now
22:01having face-to-face encounters and even
22:04larger than face-to-face encounters if
22:05you're sitting in a movie theater you're
22:07see you're seeing a face that's you know
22:0810t tall you know the close-up has
22:10delivered us an experience of a human
22:12face that just never existed in nature
22:14unless you were you know just you know K
22:18kissing somebody I suppose so you're
22:21you're making you you you have this
22:24face- Toof face encounter with other
22:27people and you might even be making eye
22:29contact with them I mean if somebody's
22:31making direct eye contact with the
22:32camera you know you're you're looking
22:34into another person's eyes and yet you
22:36know that you're totally
22:40unimpeded right you're not and therefore
22:43you can be totally
22:45unselfconscious in the presence of other
22:47people and
22:49and so it's a it's a it's a very
22:51pristine experience of of voyerism right
22:54you're just you are you're just looking
22:56at the lives of others up close I mean
22:59not far away not through a telescope I
23:01mean you're right there in the scene
23:03effectively and yet totally un
23:06implicated and therefore totally free to
23:08relax and just process it and so it's it
23:13is a kind of super stimulus and but the
23:15The crucial piece you I think is that
23:19most people can just let their feeling
23:22of of selfhood relax in the presence of
23:25others and that tends to be the hardest
23:27place to do it in the real world in the
23:30real world you know you're sitting in a
23:33in a
23:34cafe you know drinking a cup of coffee
23:36and you're looking at you know the crowd
23:39but you know you're not making eye
23:40contact with strangers because they're
23:41all just drinking and you know reading
23:43the newspaper say and at some point you
23:45look and you see that somebody's staring
23:47at you right that change when you
23:50suddenly realize that
23:51you're an object in the world for
23:55another person um that sudden you know
23:59contraction really where you suddenly
24:01become self-conscious in the presence of
24:03another person that is the self right I
24:06mean that is that feeling that that is a
24:09that is a ramification of what we feel
24:12all the time when we feel that we are
24:14the subject when we when we feel
24:17implicated as objects in the world and
24:19in relation to the world um and when you
24:24can drop that feeling in the presence of
24:27other people then then his absence even
24:29becomes more Salient because then
24:31because like when somebody's looking
24:32back at you the normal experience is a a
24:36feeling that you're you're being seen
24:38you're implicated by that person's gaze
24:40and it's almost like you're behind your
24:42face you're sort of wearing your face as
24:44a mask and they're looking at you right
24:47and you're you're reading you're reading
24:49the the the the faces of others to see
24:52how you're doing in some sense like like
24:53their their reaction to you is being
24:56played back on you as okay this is
24:58information that now I need to to take
25:01stock of right when you're actually free
25:03of the feeling of self you're they
25:06really is just other people in the world
25:09right like you're just it's somewhat
25:10analogous to watching a movie right like
25:12you are you're you're no long like the
25:15the theater is empty right like you're
25:17just you're you're just there's just the
25:18movie and you're just enjoying it and
25:21you can you can be it's not to say that
25:23you become an idiot and you can't figure
25:25out how to you know shake some person's
25:27hand or walk across cross a room or or
25:29you know figure out what you want on a
25:31menu or but you're you're no longer the
25:35center that is implicated by everything
25:38that is happening around you you're not
25:40um in some sense it's just a to a
25:43totality of experience
25:45and so that's some key to the the
25:47freedom that that exists there because
25:49not only are you not identified with
25:51each next thought that's telling you
25:53what a schmuck you are and how anxious
25:55you should should be about the next
25:56thing that's happening uh and how
25:58regretful you should be about the last
25:59thing that you just failed to accomplish
26:01um you're just at rest and available to
26:06notice what's happening now and so it's
26:09I mean that that is the the even if you
26:11can't even even if a person hasn't
26:13experienced this
26:14yet uh they can recognize in the
26:17experiences they value in the kind of
26:19flow experiences they value whether it's
26:21you know performing some athletic of you
26:25know action like you know hitting a
26:27tennis ball like the moment when tennis
26:30really feels like it's working is a
26:32moment when you're not thinking about
26:34how to do it what you should have done
26:36the fact that you just missed it oh my
26:38God you know how much how many points
26:40have I lost in this game you're just you
26:43you're at one with the action of hitting
26:44the ball and there's a kind of
26:47effortlessness to it like you you don't
26:49even know how you're doing it right like
26:51it's it's it's a kind of a the
26:53mysteriousness of the whole thing is is
26:56Salient um those kinds of flow
26:59experiences are once again experiences
27:02where there's less and less of you as
27:04the experiencer and there's more and
27:05more of just the pure experience and and
27:07so that's that's what people tend to
27:10want in life and they tend to find it in
27:12a halfhazard way when they're pushed
27:14into some you know extremely narrow uh
27:19or uh unusual event I mean it can be
27:22kind of a peak experience it could be a
27:24drug experience it could be sex it could
27:26be an emergency
27:28could be you know watching television or
27:30watching film that becomes for whatever
27:31reason super captivating I me I think
27:33that's a that's a it is you know people
27:36can disappear into their work where
27:38they're just you know the hour flies by
27:39and you were unaware of of of what what
27:42you know it was kind of effortless um so
27:46there there are glimmers of this state
27:48for
27:49people um but meditation is really the
27:52only activity where you are directly
27:56targeting this Insight that the Insight
27:58that Consciousness is this way already
28:01it's not that it's not that the the ego
28:03is really there and you successfully
28:05meditated out of existence you you
28:08recognize that it's actually not there
28:09in the first place and and and then
28:12therefore then any experience however
28:14mundane you know even as something as
28:16boring as checking your email can be an
28:19experience in which you recognize this
28:21once you know how to meditate and it's
28:24not that sometimes in cases for example
28:27being robbed
28:28it might be useful to identify as your
28:30body and do what's necessary in the
28:33actions that being identified as someone
28:35and a person but the for the vast
28:38majority of us and especially people
28:39that are listening to this right now we
28:41live in a society with more comfort and
28:42convenience that we ever have the
28:45suffering then mainly comes from this
28:48language that we use internally that is
28:50constantly
28:51self-referential and reinforces this
28:54construct and notion of a self and I'd
28:57love for us to just dive a little bit
28:58deeper here into how really language in
29:00in the construct of thought continues to
29:03uh reinforce this idea of self yet we're
29:08completely suffering something that if
29:10we paid close enough attention to we
29:12would see that it's not fully graspable
29:15it's something that is very much like we
29:17were speaking to earlier being in a
29:20Dream well I want to go back to the the
29:23example you you raised of just being of
29:25being robbed which seems like a
29:26situation where you you know much of
29:28what I just said is completely
29:29irrelevant and you you just want to be a
29:31self who can defend itself and um but
29:35when you think about that kind of
29:36experience one is it's totally
29:39appropriate to feel adrenalized to feel
29:41fear to feel anger to feel to feel that
29:45an emergency is has to be responded to
29:47because in certain cases there is an
29:49emergency that it has to be responded to
29:52but the question is how long do you want
29:54to be the in the grip of one of those
29:56emotions to in order to solve your
29:59problem right like is is the problem
30:01that you've just noticed and reacted to
30:04and contracted around best solved in a
30:07state of contraction and fear and anger
30:10and sometimes it might be I mean
30:12sometimes you know you might need just
30:14the the just pure adrenaline to solve a
30:18situation but those are super brief
30:20moments in life and you
30:23know seconds later you very likely want
30:27to be in a different St and need to be
30:28in a different state to function
30:31intelligently um because the alternative
30:33is is panic in some sense uh so it's not
30:37that I would say that the ideal is to
30:39never feel fear or anger any any you
30:43know classically negative emotion ever
30:45again because for me they
30:47are they contain information right they
30:50they they reveal that something has just
30:52happened in the world that is that you
30:54really have to pay attention to if only
30:56to just recognize it's actually not what
30:58you thought it was and you now can you
31:01know no longer worry about it but you
31:03know if suddenly if something happens
31:06some some you know you hear a window
31:07Smash and someone's climbing through it
31:09and it's you know the middle of the
31:11night okay there's something that you
31:13need to respond to
31:15but
31:17um once the once you experience that
31:21initial surge of
31:22adrenaline it's not that useful to to be
31:27lost in sort of this
31:30this
31:33catastrophic uh you know implosion of
31:36self where you're you know you're
31:37terrified you're you know
31:41uh what you'd want to be I mean to take
31:43the self-defense analogies like you'd
31:45want to be somebody who has been in this
31:47situation a thousand times before can
31:50completely own it you want to be a Navy
31:51SEAL who just like this is this is my
31:53bread and butter responding to the
31:55precisely this sort of emergency right
31:56like that's the how much fear is that
31:59guy going to be feeling in that moment
32:01so in so far as you're not that guy it's
32:03understandable that you're you're you
32:04might be super afraid but the I think
32:07everyone recognizes that the difference
32:10between being able to process you know
32:12an emergency like that in a
32:14psychologically healthy way and being
32:16traumatized by it is a difference in
32:18just how long those emotions last right
32:21and how and what you what you're able to
32:23do when you remember the experience you
32:26know a day later a year year later um
32:30and so so much of you know psychological
32:33health and growth in in any kind of
32:36spiritual practice is an ability to to
32:39shorten the halflife of of these
32:42negative emotions so it's not that you
32:43never get angry again but there's an
32:45enormous difference between being angry
32:47for 10 seconds and being angry for 10
32:50hours or 10 days or or and and then
32:53acting on the basis of that negative
32:55emotion given those those very different
32:58time windows I if you're Ang if you're
33:00angry for 10 hours there's a lot you can
33:04do in 10 hours to derange your life and
33:06your relationships I mean there's a lot
33:07of dumb things you can say when talking
33:09to you know the person you're angry at
33:11or to you know to when you know reacting
33:14to your colleagues at work you know from
33:16that state um or getting on Twitter and
33:19and uh you know tweeting about it I mean
33:21it's just there's there's almost there's
33:23almost no telling how much damage you
33:25can do given you know given that period
33:28of time
33:29you helplessly surrendered to a
33:33profoundly negative and antisocial state
33:35of mind I me and then we see we see that
33:38happen in people's lives um so getting
33:41better at at breaking the spell earlier
33:43and earlier is um is really everything
33:47and and once you can practice you know
33:51mindfulness for lack of a of a better
33:54word
33:55um negative states of mind like fear and
33:58anger begin to function like mindfulness
34:00alarms where like you suddenly you're
34:02going along there's nothing out of the
34:05ordinary happening and then suddenly
34:07something happens and you feel lousy and
34:09say you know you know some form of lousy
34:12that becomes a a go to looking into the
34:17nature of Consciousness and recognizing
34:19that there's no Center to it and that
34:21and that this next thought is a mere
34:24appearance in Consciousness and so that
34:26and so rather than being taken in
34:28by this next thought of that's that's
34:31rehearsing the reasons why you should be
34:33angry or should be afraid or should be
34:35anxious you just see it as a thought and
34:38you you it really is a kind of
34:40superpower you can decide at that moment
34:43is there any reason to stay angry here
34:45and if the answer is no you can actually
34:47get off the ride and and yet getting off
34:50the ride is
34:52synonymous with recognizing that there's
34:54no one there on the ride in the first
34:56place right I mean like it is it can
34:59sound paradoxical when I'm talking about
35:00it but there is no one who is angry
35:03there's just this appearance of of there
35:06there's just this change in the in the
35:08energy in the contents of Consciousness
35:09and there was this just the physiology
35:11of anger you know the truth is breaking
35:14the
35:15spell doesn't even
35:18require the the content contents of
35:21Consciousness to change like they will
35:24change if you if you actually are no
35:25longer thinking about why you should be
35:27angry but you can re the moment you
35:30recognize that there's no Center that
35:32there's no subject in the middle of the
35:34anger that there's no one who is angry
35:37you can the physiology can can you know
35:39it'll take 10 seconds to dissipate right
35:42but even in that first second you can
35:44recognize that there's just
35:46Consciousness and its contents and
35:48there's no Center to it and that and so
35:51you're already free even before there's
35:53been a change in in the in the character
35:55of experience it that switch that change
35:59of perception from things that are just
36:01continually happening
36:03unfortunately and I'm the victim of it
36:05to using life and its continual
36:08opportunities to wake up and to dig
36:11deeper into the true nature of Self in
36:13reality that what you spoke to in this
36:17constant arising and passing away
36:19phenomena that we all experience in life
36:21on a moment to moment basis that life is
36:23truly impermanent and that our continual
36:25denial and resistance to that flow of
36:27change is why we suffer and I feel like
36:29the more that you actually lose that
36:31identification with you being the person
36:34that things are happening to then you
36:35can become like that witness and
36:36observer somebody watching the TV right
36:38and you're not as absorbed in the
36:40experience uh and that controlling the
36:43way and you needing to force the movie
36:46in a certain outcome right so I'd love
36:49for you to speak a little bit more about
36:50impermanence our denial with it how that
36:52causes suffering and then also your
36:55thoughts on the bo budh view of
36:58Consciousness and self there like no
37:00self versus perhaps the vidonic view of
37:02Consciousness as self and is that a
37:05little too woooo for you or what are
37:06your thoughts there as well yeah well so
37:08impermanence is really the the central
37:12fact that we have to get our heads
37:14around to be motivated to to look into
37:17any of these esoteric ideas right
37:20because for but for
37:24impermanence experience could be perfect
37:26right like like you could just you could
37:28figure pres at least in principle you
37:30could figure out how to arrange your
37:33life you know you could become wealthy
37:35enough and healthy enough and kind
37:38enough and have enough you know good
37:40friends who love you around you you
37:42could be careful enough you could
37:44maintain it all enough so that your
37:48well-being would be truly invulnerable
37:50right like it just that you you could
37:52create a kind of paradise for yourself
37:54but there's a problem with that we know
37:56in the gross sense that the problem is
37:59death right we all die you know like if
38:01you just even if you're the luckiest one
38:03in the world and you're going to live
38:05you're going to be healthy to
38:07130 what is that synonymous with that's
38:09synonymous with you being on the
38:11receiving end of lots of phone calls
38:14learning that people close to you have
38:16died and disappeared right so you're
38:18going to lose everyone you love if
38:20you're too lucky to be the healthiest
38:22person you know right um nothing lasts
38:25right that's the that is the problem
38:27that no matter how good experience gets
38:29anything that that wasn't here a moment
38:31ago and it suddenly appears any state of
38:34mind that wasn't here a moment ago and
38:36suddenly appears you know joy and you
38:39know creative fulfillment and love and
38:42ecstasy and Rapture you know any drug
38:45experience or non-drug experience any
38:47psychedelic you know Insight or um
38:51Insight had any other way if it wasn't
38:53there a moment ago and it's here now by
38:56definition it will disappear right and
38:59so your your well a durable form of
39:02well-being can't be predicated on the
39:06appearance of any change in the in the
39:09contents of Consciousness because it
39:10just nothing L right what what you will
39:13be left with by definition is a memory
39:16of that experience and rehearsing that
39:18memory is itself a transitory experience
39:21that you can only extract so much joy
39:23from I mean you can think about how good
39:25that party was a week ago a month ago a
39:27year ago but it's your thoughts about it
39:30are not as good as the party and your
39:33thoughts about it are not that good when
39:37you've you know you know on the
39:39hundredth reiteration right it's just
39:41not it's and so it is with any spiritual
39:44Insight that is a matter of something
39:46you're
39:47remembering uh you know some Peak
39:49experience you had yesterday you know
39:51whether you were you know on a
39:53Meditation Retreat or on acid or
39:55whatever it was if it was a change in
39:58state and now you're thinking about it
40:01it's it's a Memory right it's so like so
40:04so the ground truth of of our
40:08contemplative lives has to be what is
40:11available to be noticed now or like what
40:14you really have is what you can locate
40:16now and if
40:19you uh you know this this will
40:21frustrated many people because many
40:22people are
40:24living understandably with the
40:26experience that now is kind of mediocre
40:29it's not you know like they can't locate
40:31anything especially profound now but
40:34they have had some great experiences
40:36that they can remember and that that
40:37they're using as kind of landmarks on
40:39their spiritual journey what they want
40:41to get back to right so they did take
40:43MDMA uh you know a year ago and that was
40:46completely transformative and they they
40:48recognized a state of consciousness that
40:50they previously had no clue existed and
40:52they they they now know that their
40:54life's journey is completely different
40:56than than they had assumed but it's
40:59still a memory right they don't feel
41:00that way now right life isn't that good
41:03now and so if
41:06you're you know get most most people are
41:09in that situation in some sense most
41:10people are seeking
41:13happiness seeking Insight seeking
41:15fulfillment seeking some stable basis to
41:18feeling
41:19good in a context in which everything is
41:22changing right and there's just no way
41:24to
41:26secure a an experience that is so good
41:29that it becomes truly indelible and it
41:31becomes the person you now are you know
41:33Moment by moment you know
41:36thereafter what is ever present what is
41:38there always to be
41:40noticed is consciousness is is just the
41:44the sheer fact that it feels like
41:48something to be what you are to be aware
41:50of experience to be to be uh awake even
41:55you know even in the dream state you
41:57know know potentially even in in states
41:59of sleep between dreams I mean some of
42:01us have had experiences where we we
42:04think um we think we know from the first
42:06person side that sleep itself is not
42:08synonymous with a loss of consciousness
42:10but that's a fairly esoteric claim uh
42:14scientifically but in any case in in in
42:18in normal Waking Life and even in
42:21dreams there is the sheer fact that it's
42:24like something to be what you are and
42:26and that you that that is consciousness
42:28for lack of a of a better term I would
42:31also call that
42:32awareness
42:35um and it it is it is always the ground
42:38truth of of your living and caring about
42:42anything I me there's nothing you can
42:44value outside of its potential
42:47implications for Consciousness you know
42:49whether it's your Consciousness or the
42:50consciousness of those you care about or
42:53the consciousnesses of perfect strangers
42:55who you who you'll never meet if you
42:56care about the difference between
42:59happiness and suffering in this universe
43:00you know your own or or your children's
43:02or strangers as you are right to to do
43:06um and really all of our morality and
43:08ethics is based on that kind of caring
43:10um what you're talking about is
43:12consciousness and its contents you're
43:14talking about the the character of
43:16experience for conscious beings
43:20um and so Consciousness is the is the
43:24basis of all
43:25experience and it does does have a
43:27certain character that can be recognized
43:30and its character is in the in the
43:31Buddha sense it is selflessness it is
43:37another term which is is profoundly
43:39misleading in in English it's often used
43:42in Buddhism is emptiness right the the
43:44Sanskrit is is
43:46shunyata um emptiness is a very is kind
43:49of a depressing term I mean people don't
43:51they don't they tend not to want more of
43:52it more of it when they hear about it
43:54it's like why would I want why would I
43:56want the punch line of spiritual life to
43:58be emptiness right that just sounds like
44:00the most boring depressing thing in the
44:02world but it's you know it's not um it's
44:06not me certainly not meant to be and
44:08it's not when you see its implications I
44:10mean it's not it's it it has
44:12implications of freedom and lack of
44:15contrivance and lack of you know it's
44:17centerless and uh it's it's it's
44:21unconstrained it's um it's you know
44:25unborn is another word that you the
44:27comes up in Buddhism um
44:29uncontaminated um and it's not
44:32constructed of anything it's not it's
44:33not built on anything it's not
44:35predicated it's not it's not contingent
44:38it's not it doesn't
44:39require any specific contents of
44:42Consciousness to be to be real right
44:45it's the prior reality of of the fact
44:47that anything is happening at all
44:49subjectively speaking and when you
44:52recognize that reality and you recognize
44:53that you are identical to it as a matter
44:56of experience
44:57there is real Freedom even in the midst
45:00of classically negative experience even
45:03in the midst of physical pain even in
45:05the midst of of profoundly negative
45:08thoughts you know profoundly negative
45:10thoughts recognized are like you know
45:13very ugly images you know on a on a
45:16movie screen they don't they just don't
45:17hurt the screen right they or or very
45:19ugly things you know held up in front of
45:21a mirror the mirror doesn't contract the
45:24mirror doesn't recoil from ugly images
45:27right the mirror is just this this this
45:31condition in which anything can kind of
45:33effortlessly
45:35appear and Consciousness can be
45:37recognized to be that way and so so from
45:39the Buddha side you know just
45:41linguistically they tend to emphasize
45:43what it's not it's not a self it's not
45:46compounded it's not conditional it's not
45:50constructed um and so there's just this
45:53sort of NE this this negative effort of
45:56sort of disavow any assumption about
45:58what it is right and not not reafy it
46:01not making something of it whereas in
46:03the on the advi
46:05side coming from a a an Indian tradition
46:08that was is just just filled to bursting
46:11with sort of positive assertions of
46:13religiosity I mean just the kind of the
46:14Hindu context in which invite Vante is
46:17the the ultimate expression of wisdom
46:19there's just a lot of assertion about um
46:23you know spiritual reality and a lot of
46:25metaphysics um so Buddhism traditionally
46:28is a reaction against all of that uh and
46:32it tends to maintain this reaction even
46:34against some of the language that is
46:35used and advi to uh you know you know
46:38the main indiscretion being you know
46:41capital S self right like the punch line
46:43for advice is you you are the self
46:45you're not the little self you're the
46:46big self uh but you know I'm convinced
46:51that they're talking about the same
46:52experience ultimately they're just
46:54they're just asserting different things
46:55about it uh
46:57and here we're up against the the
46:59limitations of language I think there's
47:01and I think there's a danger with both
47:03ways of talking about it I me the in the
47:06in the Buddhist framing the danger is it
47:10becomes so dry and analytical that
47:13people get the wrong idea they think
47:14that there's something kind of Life
47:16cancelling about this whole project
47:18right this is like it's no self Nirvana
47:21is the you know is the extinguishing of
47:23of of suffering but it's the kind of the
47:26extinguishing of everything else you're
47:27you're losing your identity you know
47:30life is is this is often it's a very
47:35current mistranslation but you know most
47:37people think bu the Buddha said life is
47:39suffering right like it's all suffering
47:41there's no happiness right that's not
47:44what what the poly term Dua means but it
47:47includes suffering but the basic meaning
47:51is
47:52unsatisfactoriness very very much
47:54because of uh what I just said about the
47:57the implications of impermanence right
47:59like because everything is changing
48:01there's nothing you can successfully
48:03hold on to that is unsatisfactory if
48:05you're seeking a a a permanent state of
48:09satisfaction you're not going to find it
48:11here because everything is changing
48:13right uh and and you amid that change if
48:17you think your your happiness depends on
48:20gratifying desire getting the next thing
48:22you
48:23want you are you are engaged by
48:26definition in a ceaseless search for
48:29gratification I mean just have to you
48:30have to keep building the house a new
48:34every day right because it's all you
48:35know the walls are always falling down
48:37right there just a
48:39continuous project of Maintenance and
48:42that's true of our world I mean we're
48:43continually maintaining the kind of the
48:46material requisites of our
48:49well-being but the question is what are
48:51we doing with our
48:53attention Moment by moment while we do
48:56that and when once you learn to meditate
48:58you can recognize that it's actually
49:00possible to
49:01be
49:03happy before the next good thing happens
49:06right before and before you you solve
49:09the the problem that has just appeared
49:12so the before you got rid of the next
49:14negative thing that has happened right
49:15so
49:16you you you know you know you have a
49:18pain and you have to figure out okay now
49:21what am I going to do about it well do I
49:22have to call a doctor okay I'm going to
49:24this is bad enough it's not going away I
49:26don't know what what it is I'm going to
49:27call a doctor right at each stage along
49:29the way there's an opportunity to either
49:31be at rest and just simply do the next
49:34thing from the point of view of of
49:36already being okay you know
49:38psychologically and and spiritually
49:42contemplatively or you can be thrust
49:45into this uh Dreamscape of you know one
49:50anxious thought following the next you
49:52know thinking about the past and future
49:55and feeling feeling at each moment along
49:58the way that your well-being is entirely
50:01dependent on resolving this situation
50:03right like you could you're not going to
50:05be okay until this pain is gone until
50:08you have figured out what it is you've
50:09seen the necessary doctor and now and
50:12now it's gone right there is no there no
50:13possibility of being okay until you have
50:15solved that problem uh and so it is with
50:18desire like you have now figured out the
50:20next thing you want you're not going to
50:22be okay until you get that thing right
50:24because the feeling of Desire itself is
50:26a kind of discomfort right like you have
50:28you recognize that okay You' got a
50:30you've got a problem you've got a
50:31problem in your in your life that that
50:34that is can only be filled by a certain
50:37shaped object right and until you until
50:41you figure out how to get United with
50:42that object whether it's a relationship
50:44or a change in your business or a CH
50:47change in your health or an
50:49understanding of of uh what's happening
50:53in the world um you know you're living
50:56you're living with a mental state in the
50:59presence of which you're sufficiently
51:00uncomfortable that you have to rearrange
51:02the world so as to get rid of that state
51:06meditation allows you to recognize that
51:08Consciousness is already free and open
51:10and without Center even in the presence
51:12of that mental state and the thought you
51:14were just thinking that g that delivered
51:17that state itself was just an appearance
51:19that was you know happening all by
51:22itself and you break the spell and and
51:24you recognize okay now you're at rest
51:26it's not to say there's there's nothing
51:28that needs to be done you might still
51:29have a pain that you that you should go
51:30to a doctor for you might still have a
51:32business problem you need to solve but
51:34you can do it from a from a state of
51:37being that
51:40recognizes we're all going to die right
51:42like like your well-being can't be
51:45predicated winning this game can't be a
51:47matter of not dying it can't be a matter
51:49of not having pains it can't be a matter
51:51of not having business problems that you
51:53have to solve right like this is a this
51:56is a uh it's like you're playing a video
51:58game where the you know there are
52:00various boss fights and their various
52:01challenges and at every level it's
52:05interesting and complicated and it's
52:07always something new
52:09appearing I mean what did you expect
52:11were you expecting a video game where
52:13nothing new appeared you like like
52:14you're expecting a place in the game
52:16where it's just like just smooth sailing
52:19without any you know impediment and you
52:21just get to stay there right like it's
52:24just that that's just not the game we're
52:25in what a boring game yeah it would be
52:27boring and it's um I mean there the
52:30truth is there are kind of medit
52:32meditative equivalents of that where you
52:34can
52:36get I mean you can the truth is I mean
52:38you can become a monk or a nun right you
52:40can become a a monastic where all you do
52:44every hour of the day is meditate and so
52:48you have no business problems you have
52:49no relationship problems you have no
52:50kids you have no you you have health
52:53problems but you like you you've limited
52:56the things that on the menu to worry
52:58about you're not going to be political
52:59you're not going to worry about what's
53:00happening you know in the news you're
53:02not you you have absented yourself from
53:05any conversation that requires you to
53:08add your voice to the the the
53:10complications of the
53:11world and now you're just going to pay
53:13attention to the contents of
53:15Consciousness and meditate there's a way
53:17to you know I'm not um criticizing that
53:21project I I've spent I spent a fair
53:22amount of time on silent meditation
53:25Retreats doing just that was you know
53:27it's I know what that life is like you
53:28know at least for increments as long as
53:313 months at a time but
53:35um it's possible to to engage all of
53:39that very much like a you know trying to
53:43smooth out the video game to the point
53:45where it is boring but ecstatic right I
53:49mean it's not really boring because
53:51boredom is really boredom as a state is
53:54really just our failure to pay attention
53:56to like what the ordinary state of
53:58boredom that most people are familiar
53:59with is just nothing is nothing
54:02interesting or good enough is happening
54:04to capture your attention and you don't
54:06know how to meditate so you're waiting
54:08for something good to happen to capture
54:10your attention you're scrolling for
54:12something that's going to give you a a
54:14hit you know of dopamine uh or you're
54:18you're changing the channels looking for
54:19something that you can disappear into
54:22because you're uncomfortable enough in
54:23your own skin you can't just stare at a
54:25wall and be happy where when you know
54:27how to meditate you actually can just
54:28stare at a wall and be happy you just me
54:30there's just the mystery of your own
54:32being there just as available when
54:34you're looking at a at a wall um so a
54:37monk or a nun you know won't have that
54:39problem but what they can have is the
54:41availability of a very different project
54:43which is you know you know universally
54:46condemned in contemplative circles as a
54:48kind of error but it's a very
54:51pleasurable and and Arcane error which
54:54is to become to become a kind of junkie
54:56of concentration where the the
54:58concentrated mind is incredibly
55:01pleasurable right so it's just and you
55:03can be you can be explicitly
55:05concentrated in states of mind like
55:07loving kindness where you're just
55:09overwhelmed by feelings of love and
55:11compassion for all sentient beings right
55:13you can just be sort of cruising in that
55:16stream for as long as you maintain that
55:19practice so you could just be blissed
55:21out on meditation
55:24and you know it's not that it's a bad
55:26thing it's not that it's a necessarily A
55:29A misuse of a person's life I mean
55:31because when you because if that person
55:33is functioning in the world at all and
55:36meeting other people or teaching
55:37meditation to people that you that can
55:39be one of the most inspiring people you
55:42ever going to meet I mean you meet
55:43someone who's doing nothing but meditate
55:44on loving kindness you know it's just
55:47you can get just blissed out just
55:49hanging out with that person because all
55:50they're thinking is how much they love
55:52you and how much they want you to be
55:53well and they've got no they're not
55:55thinking about their career they're not
55:57thinking about their relationship
55:58they're not thinking about um anything
56:02and you know other than they're just
56:04pushing their Good Vibes out to the to
56:06the universe um and that's real that's
56:08felt that's very real and they're and
56:10they're they're very stoned you know I
56:12mean in a in a very good way high on
56:15their own Supply yeah uh but there
56:18is there two things wrong with this one
56:20is it's also impermanent right like like
56:24it is those High States of
56:26concentration are based
56:29on this very contingent effort to pay
56:32attention to a very specific thing to
56:34the exclusion of everything else right
56:36you're just you're not available to
56:37everything else you are meditating on
56:39something very specific and you're also
56:42you can you can fail to recognize that
56:46the real freedom of of emptiness the
56:48real freedom of of non-duality the real
56:50freedom of of
56:51selflessness is just as
56:54available in ordin Ary States Of
56:56Consciousness as it is in this very
56:59rarified state of of just you know
57:01unconditional love for all sentient
57:03beings right so you the ultimate wisdom
57:06of meditation and again both in the in
57:09the Buddhist tradition and in in the
57:11Indian advi advic one
57:14is is to recognize what Consciousness is
57:18like always and already coincident with
57:21every possible experience not just the
57:23the classically spiritual States of of
57:26mind so that experience of Freedom that
57:29you beautifully shared in both the ADV
57:32vant approach and Buddhist approach of
57:34emptiness uh once you experience once
57:36you feel and you taste that it's like
57:40often times there can be kind of this
57:41Evangelical fervor of wanting to share
57:43that because it's so good you know it's
57:45like you found the the biggest pot of
57:46gold at the end of the rainbow and you
57:48want to share that one of the pitfalls
57:50on the path and the irony of the
57:51spiritual process right is that putting
57:54Freedom off like if you're going to take
57:56up the project of being spiritual going
57:58on the spiritual path walking that life
58:00doing those practices the very idea or
58:05thought of putting Enlightenment into
58:07the future admits to yourself of your
58:09own unenlightenment in this present
58:11moment and so the idea of putting
58:14Freedom into some future State denies
58:16yourself of its possible realization
58:18that that's already available to you so
58:20I'd love for you to share a little bit
58:21more about this kind of dichotomy in um
58:24how we can still feel the immense benef
58:26benefits from meditation and realize
58:27that it's a worthwhile practice to take
58:29up and to develop mindfulness within our
58:31reality but to go on this path as sort
58:35of an initiate to some goal in the
58:37future is also to deny yourself the
58:39possible reality now yeah that's a
58:43difficult question to resolve you know
58:45so on one level it's true in the
58:48beginning or at least seems to be true
58:50enough so as to be everyone's default
58:53starting point I mean in the beginning
58:55you recogn that you have a problem right
58:57you're not as happy as you want to be
58:58you you you suffer unnecessarily you um
59:03you know your tension is is continually
59:06bound up in thought you feel like a self
59:08you don't know what the hell I'm talking
59:09about when I say the self is an illusion
59:10right I me like it's just it's you're
59:13stuck but you're you become sufficiently
59:15con let's say through a drug experience
59:17or through some you know Peak experience
59:19that just comes over you for whatever
59:21reason you you you get a glimpse of a
59:23different way of being and you're you're
59:26you become absolutely convinced that
59:27there is a there there there it's not
59:29just you know a matter of um religious
59:32belief or or you know some um new age
59:36fraudulence right like like you you
59:38don't have to believe it's not that
59:39you're you're you've taken on a new set
59:41of ideas you've you you've had a taste
59:44of something where you recognize okay
59:46conscious it's possible to have a very
59:48different experience Consciousness is it
59:50can be different than I'm is tending to
59:52be in my
59:54case so
59:56how do I get there right like I like I'm
59:58not I have to recognize I'm not having
1:00:00that experience on a daily basis and
1:00:04that is felt as a problem because I'm
1:00:06seeking to be happy and I'm just not as
1:00:09happy as I could be and I'm just
1:00:10gratifying one desire after the next and
1:00:12yet there's this way of being that I
1:00:16know is
1:00:18possible um how to get there so there is
1:00:21this duality of path and goal already
1:00:25set up and it seems like it seems
1:00:28unavoidable and when you're given a
1:00:30technique like
1:00:31mindfulness again start at that starting
1:00:33point which is universally everyone's
1:00:35starting point you can't help but engage
1:00:38it dualistically where you're just okay
1:00:40now you're trying to meditate you
1:00:41recognize that distraction in thought is
1:00:43the problem it's not that thought itself
1:00:45is the problem you're not trying to
1:00:46suppress thought but you do you are
1:00:49trying to recognize thought as thought
1:00:52and you're finding that difficult
1:00:53because thoughts sneak up on you and all
1:00:55of a sudden you're dreaming about lunch
1:00:58and you forgot that you were trying to
1:01:00meditate right you were trying to follow
1:01:02the breath you're following it you in
1:01:03and out and in and out and then you're I
1:01:05wonder what's going to be for lunch and
1:01:07you didn't see that happen you didn't
1:01:09feel that happen it just became you and
1:01:11for a moment there the whole project of
1:01:14meditation seemed to be interrupted by
1:01:17the dream about lunch so it's within
1:01:19that that's the frame in which you're
1:01:21you're now engaging this spiritual path
1:01:24and it is dualistic you're you're you're
1:01:28lost and found right you're meditating
1:01:30and then you're not meditating then
1:01:32you're coming back to meditating and
1:01:35when even when you're being
1:01:37mindful the experience of being mindful
1:01:39is I mean they
1:01:41really in my in my framing there are
1:01:44really two stages to the path of
1:01:46mindfulness there's the dualistic
1:01:49starting stage which can last for a very
1:01:51long time and then there's the non-d
1:01:53duel stage of where you can actually
1:01:56locate freedom and selflessness directly
1:02:00and become mindful of that right and so
1:02:02and so it's the dualistic stage I'm now
1:02:04describing which seem which you know
1:02:07where the problem you just posed is is
1:02:10just
1:02:11very uh captivating for people it's like
1:02:14yeah I'm I can't I can't pretend that
1:02:17I'm at the top of the mountain because
1:02:18I'm at the bottom of the mountain and I
1:02:19see the path you know disappearing into
1:02:22the into the Mist up there and I'm
1:02:24trying to walk it
1:02:26um and yet I'm being told by everyone
1:02:29who's teaching this technique that it's
1:02:32not that the ego is real and that you
1:02:34meditated out of existence it's not that
1:02:35you actually polish a brick into a
1:02:37mirror it's not that you you know
1:02:40there's nothing to really really
1:02:41accomplish you just have to pay
1:02:43sufficient attention to recognize that
1:02:45it's the paying sufficient attention
1:02:46part that can seem laborious and can
1:02:49seem like you know you're you're you're
1:02:51doing something and it's gra it's almost
1:02:54by definition gradual because it doesn't
1:02:56appear to be here now but the truth is
1:02:59it's actually not it's this is there's
1:03:01an illusion here that just has to be
1:03:03penetrated and when that when that
1:03:05happens for anyone is is just a matter
1:03:07of uh you know luck on some level uh you
1:03:12know it's not that you can't do things
1:03:14that are that are valuable to sort of
1:03:17Orient toward it and and you the
1:03:19practice of meditation is the most
1:03:20valuable thing I think anyone can do to
1:03:23to be become available to this Insight
1:03:25but when you have this insight into
1:03:28selflessness or into non-duality or
1:03:30emptiness depending on how you want to
1:03:33talk about it one of its Hallmarks is
1:03:36you recognize okay that this this was
1:03:38always already the situation right it
1:03:41was it's not this is not something newly
1:03:43created by my meditative efforts this is
1:03:47I mean here's there are many analogies
1:03:49none no analogy is great but these are
1:03:52various analogies that I that I've
1:03:54used one is that me have you ever been
1:03:57go to a restaurant or a store and
1:04:00there's a there's a ful length mirror
1:04:02along one wall like you know Florida
1:04:04ceiling mirror and you might have a say
1:04:07it's a restaurant you might be halfway
1:04:09through your meal before you recognize
1:04:12that everyone over there on that side of
1:04:13the room is is just in the the same
1:04:16people you're sitting with but they're
1:04:17in a mirror right so like the restaurant
1:04:19is like half the size you thought it was
1:04:20right that sudden phase
1:04:23transition isy olic and perceptually
1:04:26interesting because nothing has actually
1:04:29changed about the the visual experience
1:04:32right like the the light and the color
1:04:34and the shadow is all the same but you
1:04:36suddenly have this new understanding of
1:04:39of what is real right and you can make
1:04:43and and you know one one way to sharpen
1:04:45that up is like let's say let's say the
1:04:47mirror is such that it's really just not
1:04:49clear even if someone told you that over
1:04:52there that's not the world that's a
1:04:54mirror right you're not you're being
1:04:56confused by your eyes but you you could
1:04:59imagine a mirror you know sufficient set
1:05:01up you know in an Artful enough way and
1:05:03reflecting just you know the right part
1:05:05of the world such that that would not
1:05:07even be obvious even if you were staring
1:05:10straight at it and given the instruction
1:05:12no no you just have to look at it
1:05:14closely enough you'll see that's just
1:05:15there's no depth to that circumstance
1:05:18it's just this you're you're you're
1:05:20looking at light on a wall you're not
1:05:22looking at at people and events and you
1:05:25know beautiful beautiful and ugly and
1:05:28nothing's happening over there right
1:05:30you're you're confused um but imagine
1:05:33what would happen if you know let's say
1:05:35a teacher you know a z genen Master a
1:05:38Zen master somebody who could actually
1:05:39get through to you on this topic they
1:05:40they walk over to the mirror and they
1:05:42just put their hand right on it you know
1:05:44they just wrap their Knuckles on the
1:05:45glass and all of a sudden given that
1:05:48stimulus you might say oh okay now now I
1:05:51see it right but nothing has really
1:05:53changed right it's like it was there you
1:05:54were looking at it the whole whole time
1:05:56and yet now you have this this
1:05:58conclusive understanding of what is what
1:06:01uh an analogous thing happens with
1:06:03mindfulness where you are paying
1:06:05attention to to thoughts and Sensations
1:06:09and
1:06:09emotions and you know getting lost in
1:06:12thought and coming back to the breath
1:06:14and coming back to the feeling of
1:06:15walking or whatever the object of
1:06:17mindfulness is at the moment um at a
1:06:21certain point the sense that there is a
1:06:25a medit the sense that there's a a
1:06:26center to this experience sense that
1:06:28there's a thinker in addition to the
1:06:30flow of
1:06:31thought the sense that there's a place
1:06:34from which you can aim attention to be
1:06:37meditating on anything all of
1:06:40that just disappears right like the
1:06:43center drops out
1:06:45and you discover your own absence in in
1:06:48a very conclusive sense and then that
1:06:51becomes the thing you can be mindful of
1:06:54right and then there then there are few
1:06:55Paths of
1:06:56practice that teach this very explicitly
1:07:00and Target it uh in a very precise
1:07:03way uh and you know the you know the one
1:07:06that was most useful to me came from the
1:07:09Tibetan tradition it's called the the
1:07:10Zen teachings also mahamudra within the
1:07:13Tibetan tradition does this there are
1:07:15certain variants of Zen that kind of hit
1:07:17this point in a in a precise way
1:07:19although you know I would argue with
1:07:21less Precision I mean you can spend a
1:07:23lot more time in the Zen tradition to my
1:07:27eye wondering whether you're doing it
1:07:29right whereas in in in a Zin context
1:07:32it's it's just you know you know you're
1:07:34not doing it right and then you then you
1:07:35know you're doing it right like like
1:07:37it's it's much more precise um in the
1:07:39advit
1:07:41tradition the same is true I you know
1:07:44it's
1:07:46again differences and emphasis begin to
1:07:49matter like you can spend a lot of time
1:07:51in an invite to context depending on the
1:07:54teacher just talking about all this
1:07:57stuff and feeling that there is no
1:07:58methodology Beyond just talking about it
1:08:00because it with advit to you get such a
1:08:03you tend to get such a uncomp
1:08:05uncompromising criticism of every
1:08:08dualistic method that I mean that advita
1:08:12is so alert to the problem you posed
1:08:14which is the sense that I'm far away
1:08:16from the goal right like I'm even
1:08:18conceiving of Enlightenment proves to me
1:08:21that I'm not enlightened right because
1:08:24I'm you know here I'm
1:08:26what I'm left to to be aware of is in
1:08:28some sense the evidence of my
1:08:29unenlightenment I mean that's what I'm
1:08:31mindful of I'm mindful of the fact that
1:08:32a moment ago I was lost in thought and I
1:08:34now I'm now I'm trying to pay attention
1:08:36to the breath so to not do that again
1:08:38right like it's just me here meditating
1:08:40right that um so but in
1:08:43ADV you know this is the people will
1:08:46have heard of people like Raman Mahari
1:08:48or narad Maharaj or puni who you know
1:08:51who I studied with who was a disciple of
1:08:53Raman Mahari um
1:08:56or raes balar who a who was a disciple
1:08:58of naras these are two couple of modern
1:09:02teachers but they're many others the the
1:09:04the emphasis
1:09:06on the ucer of of of Duality the the
1:09:10fact there is no path there is no goal
1:09:12there's no one to accomplish it it's
1:09:14always already the
1:09:15case that becomes
1:09:18so that path is so steep that for many
1:09:21people it's just like a brick wall I
1:09:22mean you just kind of slam into it and
1:09:24you're left with somebody saying
1:09:26effectively like either you're going to
1:09:28understand what I'm saying right now you
1:09:30know before I get to the end of the
1:09:31sentence or it's hopeless like like it's
1:09:34just you know there's no one to do it
1:09:35there's no one to try Consciousness is
1:09:37already free of self and you either
1:09:40recognize that right now or you're going
1:09:42to leave this room telling yourself a
1:09:44story that you have to meditate and you
1:09:46have to be a spiritual seeker and that's
1:09:49all part of the bad dream that you
1:09:51haven't woken up from so either you wake
1:09:52up now or not right and that that is the
1:09:56the methodology that
1:09:58ADV implements again and again and again
1:10:01ad nauseum and that's why you have
1:10:03people who spend you know they can spend
1:10:06years just hanging out with their
1:10:07favorite Guru just talking the talk of
1:10:10advita and maybe not recognizing this
1:10:14thing right or may maybe having Peak
1:10:16experiences which they then remember as
1:10:18you know the moment where they they
1:10:20glimpsed it but they can't find it again
1:10:24in their moment of moment paying
1:10:25attention to to
1:10:27experience um so what I think I mean the
1:10:30sweet spot for me and again it's it's
1:10:32not that there aren't pitfalls you know
1:10:35in various moments depending on how you
1:10:36talk about it but The Sweet Spot is to
1:10:40acknowledge the ucer of this to
1:10:42acknowledge that it's Consciousness is
1:10:43already this
1:10:44way but to recognize that there there is
1:10:47a
1:10:48Precision required and an honesty like
1:10:51an intellectual honesty required and it
1:10:53just like what is it that you can notice
1:10:56now right what what is available to to
1:10:59attention now
1:11:02and it it in my experience it requires a
1:11:05certain amount of training and
1:11:06mindfulness to actually be rigorously
1:11:09honest about what is you know what
1:11:12experience is like now and to like
1:11:14validate it within your own experience
1:11:16versus it's just like an intellectual
1:11:17thing right yeah and and also or just a
1:11:21pretense I mean you know I've met people
1:11:23who
1:11:25spent a lot of time with with punaji I
1:11:27mean puni was kind of a unique case
1:11:29because he was he was this amazingly
1:11:31charismatic teacher I he was just this
1:11:34you know to all appearances just this
1:11:37wonderfully free being right and he he
1:11:40certainly claimed to be enlightened Ian
1:11:42he was not hiding his light under a
1:11:44bushel I mean he just he was he claimed
1:11:46to be the real real deal and he seemed
1:11:48like the real
1:11:49deal and he was totally uncompromising
1:11:54in his
1:11:56in in the non-duality of his non-duality
1:11:59right he would not more so than his
1:12:01teacher Raman Mahari I mean Ramana would
1:12:03say things like you must make every
1:12:06effort to become effortless right like
1:12:08he would he would he would play with The
1:12:10Duality non-duality component of it and
1:12:12and acknowledged that for many people
1:12:15even for him in in certain cases there
1:12:17was a path like precursor to his being
1:12:20stably aware of this truth he was
1:12:22talking about um but pun tended not to
1:12:26acknowledge any any validity to anything
1:12:30path-like right so if you'd say so he
1:12:32would just you know his analogy for what
1:12:36meditation was like you you've come to
1:12:38him with like you know 20 kilograms of
1:12:41you know bricks on your head and you're
1:12:43complaining of how uncomfortable you are
1:12:45and what every you know tradition of
1:12:47meditation does is just add more bricks
1:12:50to the pile like here we got we got a
1:12:52brick made of Jade we're going to put
1:12:53that on here to see if you feel better
1:12:55right and so like it's just completely
1:12:58it's completely illc conceived the logic
1:13:00is just backwards you know there's
1:13:02nothing you're going to pay attention to
1:13:05now strategically as a spiritual
1:13:07practice that is going to be any use at
1:13:10all in this project because the it is
1:13:14the the effort you're making is
1:13:17predicated on a false assumption
1:13:19everything about it the beliefs the the
1:13:23the affectations the the the changes in
1:13:26your identity the wearing of beads the
1:13:28the you know your interest in certain
1:13:30books versus other books the whole
1:13:33project is a just an adumbration of your
1:13:37unha of of of the very thing that's
1:13:39making you unhappy right it's like
1:13:40you're your problem is seeking and you
1:13:43can't seek your way out of it right
1:13:45that's that's the and so emphasizing
1:13:48that to the exclusion of every other
1:13:50message leaves a lot of people feeling
1:13:53like okay like like the that door is
1:13:55closed right I'm not going to become a
1:13:57Buddhist I'm not going to become a
1:13:58meditator I'm not going to I'm going to
1:14:00get rid of my beads I'm going to like
1:14:02I'm I'm I'm not going to be uh I'm not
1:14:04going to have any spiritual identity
1:14:06it's just it's all all of that's a waste
1:14:08of time and now I'm just here
1:14:10considering the the project a new and
1:14:14what happened with two things happen to
1:14:16many people with pun one is there are
1:14:18many people who claimed to be
1:14:19enlightened who obviously weren't right
1:14:21like like they had some brief moment
1:14:23with him and then they went away and set
1:14:26up shop as gurus and and they you know
1:14:28were just um you know it worked for some
1:14:31people and it didn't work for others but
1:14:33it it was just they they had a belief
1:14:35about thems that they're now these these
1:14:38you know realized beings again it was a
1:14:41a new self-concept right and and in some
1:14:44cases it was it was not that it was
1:14:46totally unwarranted I mean they were
1:14:48having you know very um compelling
1:14:52spiritual experiences they were they
1:14:53were very meditative people they spent
1:14:55spent a lot of time on this project and
1:14:56they got to puni G and he basically
1:14:58deputized them as gurus uh but uh which
1:15:03he did to everyone I mean literally
1:15:04anyone who would say anything positive
1:15:07in his presence he would basically just
1:15:08say you know you're going to go you're
1:15:10going to do great work in in in America
1:15:12right and if you were the kind of person
1:15:13who who you know wanted to do you know
1:15:16wanted to set up shop as a guru you you
1:15:18know you could take the ball and run
1:15:20with it um so either that happened or
1:15:24people just felt that um all spiritual
1:15:27efforts were were doomed but then they
1:15:30just went on to live you know ordinary
1:15:32lives where they're making all kinds of
1:15:33other efforts to be happy all the
1:15:35ordinary ones to you know just figure
1:15:37out how to be you have good
1:15:38relationships and you know not be
1:15:41addicted to alcohol and and like like
1:15:43they're just they're just trying to
1:15:44solve all the ordinary problems
1:15:46everyone's trying to solve trying to
1:15:47feel good and yet they now know that
1:15:51meditation is right it's like
1:15:53that so that they were left in in a
1:15:55worse place on some on some level right
1:15:58I it's almost like being told you know
1:16:00at bottom you really are you know an an
1:16:03Olympic level athlete right like you are
1:16:06like if you could only just sit properly
1:16:09like just get into the right posture
1:16:12You' recognize that you're just you're
1:16:14you're you're Hussein bolt right you're
1:16:16like you know you're as fast as any man
1:16:17who's ever run the 100 meter dash right
1:16:21and now you have this belief about
1:16:22yourself but you just can't quite I mean
1:16:24and you're trying to you might be trying
1:16:25to pretend to be a great athlete you
1:16:27know or but you can't actually function
1:16:30that way um or you just you have this
1:16:33belief that it's you know working out is
1:16:35hopeless dieting is hopeless getting in
1:16:37shape is hopeless um and you hope
1:16:41someday you're going to be fit right
1:16:43it's like it's just the door to the
1:16:46Dharma gets closed and it's there's no
1:16:48alternative so um and this is actually
1:16:51some clue as to why within the Zan
1:16:53tradition they're very concerned that
1:16:54you not give the non-d Dual teachings
1:16:57out to without the a proper context
1:17:00because people can get the wrong idea
1:17:02and you know honestly I mean I walk that
1:17:05line um however I do over at waking up
1:17:08and it's not you know I'm not sure I
1:17:11always walk it correctly in every
1:17:13instance um you mean my feeling is you
1:17:17want to be rigorously honest about what
1:17:20is actually true for you in each moment
1:17:22what seems to be true for you in each
1:17:23moment you need a a certain amount of
1:17:26mindfulness to to do that I think people
1:17:29should be disabused of all kinds of
1:17:31spiritual and religious illusions that
1:17:34that um you know you don't have to you
1:17:36don't have to take anything on faith to
1:17:39to engage this project but I do think
1:17:41it's important at the soonest possible
1:17:44opportunity
1:17:47to be told that actually you
1:17:50can realize something truly fundamental
1:17:53and life-changing
1:17:56very soon and it and it is the Hallmark
1:17:59of it is that it's always available it's
1:18:01not something that you have to you know
1:18:05get a lot of momentum behind you to get
1:18:08it to to get back to right it's not
1:18:10something it's not a peak experience
1:18:12that by definition will require you know
1:18:14a week of Silence on Retreat to get back
1:18:17to or another tab of asset to get back
1:18:19to him it's like is it is it is
1:18:21coincident with with this moment however
1:18:24ordinary it seems and it could be
1:18:26arrived at by as simple as this uh one
1:18:29deep breath and you're back in that
1:18:31state right that you can
1:18:33experience I think it's so valuable to
1:18:35have teachers and individuals that can
1:18:37point out and slap their hand on the
1:18:38mirror and and and point out things with
1:18:41and help guide your attention to the
1:18:43nature of reality in a more true sense
1:18:46yet there's also and you kind of touch
1:18:48on a little bit which I want to dive a
1:18:50little bit deeper here is that it is
1:18:51possible to wake up beyond the illusion
1:18:54of self and still not have grown up
1:18:56beyond your own character logical
1:18:57defects you can have a profound
1:19:00disidentification with your own thought
1:19:02and yet still act like an or
1:19:05worse and we've seen many cases of this
1:19:08right yeah and so I would love to dive
1:19:10into this a little bit more because it's
1:19:13one half of the pie right or you know
1:19:16potentially less but you to just pursue
1:19:20the disidentification with thought in in
1:19:22this path of waking up without realizing
1:19:25that uh your character logical defects
1:19:28and essentially Shadow material that you
1:19:29have not worked through will have a
1:19:31profound impact on people in your
1:19:33relationships in the outer world if you
1:19:36uh don't resolve as well yeah and also
1:19:39just differences in culture right like
1:19:42becoming enlightened doesn't get you a
1:19:45new culture all like it's like and if if
1:19:48you don't know anything about quantum
1:19:49mechanics before you become a Buddha
1:19:51you're not going to know anything about
1:19:52quantum mechanics after you become a
1:19:54Buddha I mean leaving aside what people
1:19:56believe about the powers of a Buddha and
1:19:59there's just the fact that there there
1:20:01can be quite a distance in
1:20:04in time between having genuine Insight
1:20:09in the in the in what I'm talking about
1:20:12here selflessness or
1:20:13non-duality and truly stabilizing that
1:20:16Insight so that you never Overlook it
1:20:18again right so I mean for me I I'm not I
1:20:21make no pretense of being fully
1:20:23enlightened or a Buddha or like at the
1:20:25end of this project right like I'm I'm
1:20:29you know I try to be rigorously honest
1:20:30about just what I can authenticate as a
1:20:33matter of my direct experience what is
1:20:35plausible to me to believe in on the on
1:20:38the basis of of uh what I know or think
1:20:41I know and what it's pretty pretty clear
1:20:43to me I I'm not experiencing or haven't
1:20:45experienced and so you know I'm I I
1:20:49still definitely get lost in thought
1:20:51right the dream reasserts itself now
1:20:55what it's like to wake up from the dream
1:20:57is is different than it it's different
1:21:00than it would be if I were practicing
1:21:02dualistically right like when when
1:21:04you're when you're practicing
1:21:07mindfulness mindfulness dualistically
1:21:09you get lost in thought and you notice
1:21:12it and then let's say you come back
1:21:13let's say you're meditate on the breath
1:21:14you come back to the breath that there's
1:21:17still a lot of power in that I mean just
1:21:18that the learning to exercise this
1:21:21particular muscle of just getting
1:21:22distracted and then recognizing it and
1:21:24being no longer being distracted coming
1:21:26back to the breath or coming back to
1:21:28sounds or anything you could could
1:21:30notice even dualistically that that
1:21:33allows you to unhook from the emotional
1:21:36and behavioral implications of any one
1:21:38of those thoughts right so if it's if
1:21:39it's a thought of anger and you notice
1:21:41it and then you come back to just
1:21:43breathing that gives you a degree of
1:21:45Freedom that most people don't have I
1:21:47most people are just angry from that
1:21:49moment on and they're just going to say
1:21:50or do whatever they do on that basis
1:21:52they see no alternative but to feel
1:21:54identical to their thoughts but if
1:21:56you're doing this
1:21:57dualistically it seems like the sense of
1:22:01self is maintained throughout that whole
1:22:03process like I feel angry and oh I'm
1:22:06supposed to be meditating why did okay
1:22:09you know back to the breath but it's the
1:22:11meditator has been preserved like you're
1:22:13just you're still me in here meditating
1:22:15making an effort
1:22:17um once you have really broken the spell
1:22:20and can practice in a non-d du way the
1:22:23moment you notice the thought the moment
1:22:26you notice you've become angry and
1:22:27you've the Dreamscape of thought has
1:22:30captured
1:22:31you not only does the thought just
1:22:34unravel the way all thoughts do I mean
1:22:36they're just they're it's amazing that
1:22:38thoughts do anything at all to push us
1:22:40around because I mean when you actually
1:22:41look at them these just the most
1:22:43gossamer you know bits of language or
1:22:45imagery I mean there's there's nothing
1:22:46there really so the thoughts unravel
1:22:49whether you're looking at them
1:22:50dualistically or not or non-d
1:22:52dualistically but
1:22:55the moment you recognize a thought is a
1:22:57thought coincident coincident with that
1:23:00recognition you notice there's no one
1:23:03recognizing it I mean there's no Center
1:23:05to Consciousness it's just Consciousness
1:23:07and it's its contents and and there's
1:23:10freedom in that right so it's you're not
1:23:12left with the problem of okay I better
1:23:14get the back to the breath because
1:23:16this is a long project right like this
1:23:18is I've been on this Retreat for a week
1:23:20and this is still happening I'm getting
1:23:22angry what is like oh now I'm thinking
1:23:24again what the like that so like it's
1:23:26that that
1:23:29iteration just is perpetually feels like
1:23:32a problem that proves you're
1:23:36unenlightened and far from your goal as
1:23:38you you know put it at the outset right
1:23:41and yet when you can practice non-d
1:23:44dualistically you recognize that the
1:23:47goal is already here you you can in Zen
1:23:50terminology you can take the goal as the
1:23:53path like you're next moment of path is
1:23:56enjoying the freedom of of non-duality
1:23:59in that moment you know maybe only for a
1:24:02moment right so so
1:24:05the The crucial Point here though is
1:24:08that even if you're practicing non-d
1:24:09dualistically you still very unless
1:24:12you're some you know Adept you know or
1:24:14Prodigy who the moment you break through
1:24:17for the first time you you know you're
1:24:19you're done you're you're you're stable
1:24:21for the rest of your
1:24:23life you you're still going to be
1:24:25fluctuating between enjoying
1:24:27Consciousness as it is without
1:24:29distraction and being lost in the
1:24:30Dreamscape of thought right and because
1:24:34you're still going to be caught by
1:24:36thought it matters what kinds of
1:24:38thoughts you have right because you're
1:24:40going you're going to be doing something
1:24:42on the basis of those thoughts you're
1:24:43going to be saying something you're
1:24:44going to be captivated by something
1:24:46you're going to be wanting something and
1:24:47if you're a guru who really wants to
1:24:49have sex with his prettiest students
1:24:52that's who you're going to be right like
1:24:53like you could you could be punctuating
1:24:55that with genuine insights into
1:24:57non-duality but if you don't have an eth
1:25:00if you've come from a culture where
1:25:02that's actually not even a bad thing
1:25:03like that's just Tantra right you're
1:25:05just of course you you could have sex
1:25:07with anyone you want you're the guru
1:25:09right you're like that if you come from
1:25:11a theocracy and there's no you know HR
1:25:13department who's going to say Hey listen
1:25:14actually it's not a great thing to be I
1:25:16mean some of these students are married
1:25:18there's a power differential here you
1:25:19know like they there's a lot of
1:25:21projection going on you know this is
1:25:23unfair this is ethically unwise this is
1:25:25you know you're actually and in each one
1:25:27of those moments you're being a selfish
1:25:29and you're not recognizing it
1:25:31because you don't have that much
1:25:32mindfulness um you know you're not going
1:25:35to see the problem and you're and yes we
1:25:37have you know lived with the
1:25:39consequences of that in many spiritual
1:25:41communities many gurus who were not
1:25:44actually frauds in the normal sense have
1:25:48behaved terribly with their
1:25:51students because they essentially they
1:25:54became rock stars in a very you know
1:25:57isolated community and gratified their
1:26:00desires their still extent desires on
1:26:02that basis right I mean just think of
1:26:04how tempting it is to be I mean
1:26:06basically you're you're like you know
1:26:07you're John Bon Joi you know but you're
1:26:09on an island of people who are
1:26:12projecting all of their spiritual hopes
1:26:13and fears onto you right it's like it's
1:26:16like you're it's like you're a rock star
1:26:18with power right you know you're like
1:26:20you're it's it's ridiculous you know and
1:26:23mo most egos in that situation don't
1:26:26handle it very well right um so it's not
1:26:30especially mysterious that that
1:26:32spiritual teachers
1:26:33misbehave
1:26:35um and it's also not mysterious that
1:26:38even people with genuine spiritual
1:26:40insights can misbehave in those ways
1:26:42because they're again they're getting
1:26:43lost in thought much of the time because
1:26:47they're not they're not fully done with
1:26:49this with this process of of recognizing
1:26:52the nature of Consciousness um
1:26:55and as as to whether anyone act you I'm
1:26:57not sure I've met anyone who's totally
1:26:59fulfilled the process i' I've certainly
1:27:01met people who have claim to have done
1:27:03so but um and I've met people who I felt
1:27:07were further along than than I was and
1:27:11and were very inspiring to me on that
1:27:14basis but
1:27:16um no I think it's it's uh it's
1:27:19important to recognize that on some
1:27:23level spiritual insight and you know
1:27:25even non-duality isn't enough to get us
1:27:30everything we want and a right to want
1:27:32in this world I mean we're it's not
1:27:35enough you know a bunch of enlightened
1:27:39Buddhas even is not enough to help us
1:27:43build a civilization that really works
1:27:46right there's a lot there's just a
1:27:47tremendous amount of knowledge that that
1:27:49we want that you don't get by just
1:27:53meditating more even on even correctly
1:27:55on the nature of emptiness I mean you
1:27:56don't you don't spontaneously understand
1:27:59how to improve an economy right or a a
1:28:05medical system you know or to make to
1:28:07engineer airplanes so that they they
1:28:09crash less and less and less and
1:28:11ultimately don't crash at all right it's
1:28:12like that's all a matter of very
1:28:16specific forms of of um you know
1:28:19iterative knowledge
1:28:20acquisition that you know perfectly un
1:28:24enlightened people are qualified to do
1:28:26right like like this is the whole
1:28:27project these projects are are are
1:28:29orthogonal to one another it's just it's
1:28:32we want good Aircraft engineers and we
1:28:34want Buddhas and occasionally you might
1:28:36want you know if you're an aircraft
1:28:38engineer it might be nice to be a Buddha
1:28:40if you're a Buddha you probably don't
1:28:41care about being an aircraft engineer
1:28:43but we need both and they are they are
1:28:46different projects and and The crucial
1:28:48piece for your question with respect to
1:28:52the ethics is ethics has a lot in common
1:28:57with aircraft
1:28:58engineering and is not fully captured by
1:29:01the project of just recognizing the self
1:29:04as an illusion right
1:29:06because especially in this
1:29:09this interval of where you're still just
1:29:12working out the consequences for
1:29:14yourself of of this Insight right and
1:29:16you're not fully stable because if
1:29:19you're not fully stable all you have
1:29:22are ideas and thoughts and culture with
1:29:25which to manifest and if you have a
1:29:27culture that just hasn't figured out
1:29:29certain core ethical principles as many
1:29:31cultures haven't
1:29:34uh you know it's like when P you when
1:29:37puni had to get his
1:29:40um had to find his niece a husband you
1:29:43in
1:29:44India he had no brighter idea about how
1:29:47to go about doing that than to put you
1:29:49know to take out you know classified ad
1:29:52with her picture in it you know
1:29:54strategically lightened to make her look
1:29:56more light-skinned than she was because
1:29:59that's valuable in Indian culture right
1:30:01they you like it's it's like racism is
1:30:05the wrong concept I guess but there's
1:30:07some version of of uh you know bias you
1:30:11know prejudice against dark skin even
1:30:13within Indian culture uh that that
1:30:17that's a completely
1:30:19rational uh marketing tool for his niece
1:30:24you know to find a
1:30:26husband this is what the Buddhas you
1:30:29know the the self-proclaimed enlightened
1:30:31Adept is doing to get to to to find a
1:30:35husband for his
1:30:36niece okay is that the optimal way to
1:30:39solve the social problem of how how do
1:30:41you get young people together to to find
1:30:43to to have satisfying marriages I doubt
1:30:46it right it's like so he didn't have by
1:30:49virtue of being the most blissed out and
1:30:53wise and compass passate person you know
1:30:55I had ever met at that point he had
1:30:57exactly zero insight into how to solve
1:31:01this kind of social problem um there's
1:31:05just more you need more than than just
1:31:07the the the Deliverance of your own
1:31:10personal freedom powerful I think it's
1:31:13it's such a an important understanding
1:31:15and framework for people just to T tap
1:31:17into a little bit here as well because
1:31:18they are both very very important and
1:31:20one without the other is is incomplete
1:31:23the mere
1:31:24recognition that Consciousness is like a
1:31:27mirror is inherently
1:31:29liberating and I'm just curious for you
1:31:31a little bit more into your own personal
1:31:33journey and into your into your story
1:31:36what have been a few pivotal moments
1:31:38into where it's uh shifted something and
1:31:42and allowed you to Pivot into an even
1:31:44more honest and devoted inquiry to this
1:31:46path because you very much devoted your
1:31:48life into this this understanding this
1:31:50work sharing with people in your own
1:31:51personal life going on retreat earlier
1:31:54in your life and Exploration with
1:31:56psychedelics and I think it's really
1:31:58important for people to firsthand have
1:32:01these different experiences where they
1:32:02can validate within their own reality
1:32:04what we're speaking to and so I'd love
1:32:05for you just to share a little bit more
1:32:07um a couple of those big pivots for you
1:32:09yeah um so yeah my first experience that
1:32:13was relevant to any of this was with
1:32:15MDMA so I I think I was
1:32:1818 and um it had been it was given to me
1:32:22like at that point I it was
1:32:241980 that was 19 I was I think it was
1:32:26like 1986 it had just become schedule
1:32:30one I think in 85 but like until then it
1:32:33was very actively being used in the
1:32:35Therapeutic Community very much for you
1:32:39know spiritual and and U you know
1:32:43psychological insight I mean it was just
1:32:45it was a you know it was not yet a a
1:32:46club drug it was not I mean maybe it was
1:32:48I it was too young to know but it was
1:32:50there was there was no Rave scene and it
1:32:52was I I knew of no one
1:32:54my age who had taken it and you know
1:32:56there were no parties where it was being
1:32:58passed around so MDMA otherwise known as
1:33:01Molly or ecstasy um so I took it very
1:33:05much you know it been given to me you
1:33:08know really is just kind of
1:33:10a a prompt to spiritual realizations
1:33:14like someone said listen this you might
1:33:16really learn something if you took this
1:33:17and and I think I um think I waited I
1:33:21think I waited like two years until I
1:33:24actually thought all right maybe that
1:33:25maybe that's worth trying this um but
1:33:28when I finally took it I I took it
1:33:30therefore very much with the intention
1:33:32of realizing something about the nature
1:33:33of my own mind that I hadn't yet
1:33:35realized and that's what happened I mean
1:33:38I was I was sitting with one of my best
1:33:41friends at the time and we're just
1:33:44having a conversation waiting for this
1:33:46this the drug to arrive and recognized
1:33:51at some point along the way that we
1:33:53suddenly were very different people that
1:33:56we just that we were for the first time
1:33:59I mean this he had an analogous
1:34:02experience but I really can only speak
1:34:04about my
1:34:05own
1:34:07um for the first time in my life I was
1:34:12just I was unencumbered by concerns
1:34:16about myself that I didn't even
1:34:19know had been operative right it's like
1:34:23for the first time time I was
1:34:25not paying attention
1:34:28to the the way the person was looking at
1:34:30me like like the like the change in
1:34:32expression from the on the other
1:34:34person's face was no longer getting read
1:34:36back in
1:34:38into a um a self-conscious mapping of my
1:34:42own you know performance my own worth my
1:34:45own like I was just not I was not
1:34:47looking at myself through another
1:34:48person's eyes on any level I was just I
1:34:51had 100% free attention to just look at
1:34:54my friend right and so he's talking and
1:34:56I'm just listening and there's no and I
1:34:59was not comparing myself to him anymore
1:35:01I was not it was like and when all this
1:35:03got Stripped Away it was just the
1:35:06freedom of of having it gone was um just
1:35:11astounding like like it was like I had
1:35:13it really was analogous to having
1:35:16carried a tremendous burden and never
1:35:20you know never having anything to
1:35:22compare it to right and to suddenly have
1:35:26be relieved of it it's only in its
1:35:29absence that you you
1:35:31feel how painful it was to be that sort
1:35:34of person right and so it's so it's I I
1:35:38must have the fact that I took the drug
1:35:39in the first place with the intention I
1:35:42had means that I had some awareness that
1:35:46there was some project here to you know
1:35:49to at least give my attention to uh that
1:35:52something wasn't optimal about My
1:35:54momentto Moment experience but I really
1:35:57was I mean it's very hard for me to
1:35:58recapture who I was before that
1:36:01experience because it was you know it
1:36:04was such a revelation that there was so
1:36:07much more to me and my own being you
1:36:11know
1:36:13psychologically than I had experienced
1:36:15up until until that point you know and
1:36:17if I just have no I don't know what it
1:36:20would like if I could go back in time
1:36:21and talk to the teenager I was before I
1:36:23had that experience I just I mean I I
1:36:27there would have been no basis to get
1:36:28through to that person about any of
1:36:30these any of these topics right so it
1:36:32was just you know it's very hard to say
1:36:36that taking an illegal drug is an
1:36:38indispensable experience but you know in
1:36:41my case it felt like it was like I don't
1:36:43I just don't think I think I was
1:36:44so closed down and unavailable it's not
1:36:49that I was profoundly unhappy I was you
1:36:50know I was a pretty happy high
1:36:52functioning kid but it's just I had no
1:36:56interest in it pointed in this direction
1:36:59like I was just interested in the world
1:37:00I was interested in in doing fun
1:37:03creative things in the world but the
1:37:05nature of Mind did not interest me the
1:37:07nature of Consciousness did not interest
1:37:08me and my
1:37:10own U religion and all of its promises
1:37:13you know certainly seemed just
1:37:14intrinsically false um
1:37:18so I just was
1:37:22um I I I guess on some level I was just
1:37:24convinced that there was no more
1:37:27interesting game to play than
1:37:29being a successful ego right and a a
1:37:33knowledgeable ego and a just it just you
1:37:36know you there there's a way to win this
1:37:38game as an ego and that's what I wanted
1:37:40to do right and so and the cramp of that
1:37:43the confinement of
1:37:45that was not at all obvious to me I me
1:37:48the one the one thing that that made it
1:37:50clear but I I had forgotten it and when
1:37:52I until after I took MDMA but the the
1:37:55one moment in my life really I think the
1:37:58the only moment in my life that where I
1:38:01recognized that there was some
1:38:03interesting riddle to solve that I just
1:38:05wasn't even entertaining was a moment
1:38:08when I I went on Outward Bound which
1:38:09which was was this um probably still is
1:38:12this kind of outdoor
1:38:15leadership uh School uh that lasted in
1:38:19my case it was like 23 days in the
1:38:20mountains of Colorado over over a summer
1:38:23when I was 16 and so you're hiking you
1:38:25know endless miles you know between
1:38:27clouds of mosquitoes for you know day
1:38:29after day and um but it culminates with
1:38:33a a a three-day what they call a solo
1:38:37where you're just you're not you're not
1:38:39hiking you're not moving around you're
1:38:40just camped somewhere by yourself and
1:38:43fasting all you have is water and a
1:38:45journal right and so you're I was up at
1:38:4711,000 ft just in front of this gorgeous
1:38:50Alpine Lake you know it's just like with
1:38:53you know more stars overhead than I'd
1:38:55ever seen in my life uh for three days
1:38:58and nights
1:39:00fasting and writing in my journal and
1:39:04all I could think to write in my journal
1:39:06were just like lists of foods I wanted
1:39:08to eat when I got home and the
1:39:10experiences I wanted to have and all the
1:39:11people I missed and I mean nothing came
1:39:15out of me in those 72 hours but just a a
1:39:21a Litany of complaint about how lonely I
1:39:25was how sad I was how how how
1:39:28uncomfortable I was in isol was just I
1:39:30was profoundly unhappy like I was like I
1:39:33was the kind the person who if you put
1:39:35him in solitary confinement would just
1:39:37have died of exposure to his own mind
1:39:40right I mean it was just it was it was a
1:39:42catastrophe and yet I came off those
1:39:45three days it's like there was like a
1:39:47the last day of
1:39:49the maybe those were like days you know
1:39:51maybe 18 through 21 of a 23-day course
1:39:56so the last couple of days of of you
1:39:58know integration um were days where I
1:40:02could see that those three days of
1:40:04isolation had a very different effect on
1:40:06many other people in the group right so
1:40:08like and most people were older than me
1:40:10I was 16 which I think is the youngest
1:40:12you could be on Outward Bound and but so
1:40:14a lot of people were in their late 20s
1:40:15you know or mid
1:40:1720s and they had a profoundly different
1:40:19experience I mean they they came off
1:40:21three days of solitude having had had a
1:40:23like a lifechanging you know Insight of
1:40:26some kind and I remember
1:40:29thinking I have no idea how that's
1:40:33possible like like and that was like
1:40:35just barely just barely interesting to
1:40:38me like wait like I don't know what
1:40:41happened for them but like that's like
1:40:43I'm now surrounded by people who just
1:40:45told me that like having Nails drilled
1:40:47into their head was you know a a a
1:40:50life-changing positive experience
1:40:53so I knew there was something I was
1:40:55missing but I didn't think about that
1:40:58until like two years later after I took
1:41:00MDMA I just thought oh okay now I
1:41:03understand that there's there's like I'm
1:41:05in sort of a mansion of mental life and
1:41:08I've been confined to the pantry you
1:41:10know just trying to figure out how many
1:41:11Oreos I can eat and you know there's
1:41:14just you know everything else awaits My
1:41:17Discovery
1:41:19so
1:41:20um so it was at so after I had that
1:41:24experience on MDMA I started reading
1:41:26books about you know meditation and
1:41:29spirituality and religion and that
1:41:32started
1:41:33a you know more than a decade of me
1:41:37spending most of my time just focused on
1:41:39these kinds of questions and and I
1:41:42did uh you know many many Retreats
1:41:46mostly in a in a Buddhist context I mean
1:41:48many of apasa Retreats you know
1:41:49practicing mindfulness
1:41:51dualistically for a very long time and I
1:41:53probably spent about a year on
1:41:55Retreat where I think it would be safe
1:41:58to say that you know even after a year
1:42:01on Retreat I I wouldn't fully understand
1:42:05the kinds of things I was I've been
1:42:06talking about with you today like I was
1:42:08still very much a a a dualistic
1:42:10practitioner of mindfulness where even
1:42:13if I had had glimpses of selflessness
1:42:15like there there definitely moments on
1:42:17like a three-month Retreat where I was
1:42:19concentrated enough where there seemed
1:42:21to be you know clear breaks in my sense
1:42:25of self like I'm just you I'm listening
1:42:26to the sound of a bird say and for a
1:42:30moment there there's just hearing right
1:42:32there's just there's not a there's not a
1:42:33one there's not one hearing there's not
1:42:35the thing heard there's just like a pure
1:42:36experience of hearing right but I didn't
1:42:40know how to get back there and it seemed
1:42:41to be contingent upon me building up
1:42:45many many continuous moments of
1:42:47mindfulness and really kind of heroic
1:42:49levels of concentration doing nothing
1:42:52but practice and silence for you know 16
1:42:54hours a day right I mean that's what
1:42:55these Retreats were so I spent about a a
1:42:58year like that on silent Retreat uh
1:43:02before again in like increments of you
1:43:04know one week to three months long uh
1:43:08mostly in the States but I
1:43:10also made many trips to India and Nepal
1:43:14um to study with various teachers and
1:43:16but it wasn't until I connected with uh
1:43:20Zen and and a few specific teachers in
1:43:23Nepal and uh punaji you know the the one
1:43:27advit to teacher who I spent a fair
1:43:29amount of time within India where that
1:43:31sort of the the the criticism of my
1:43:33dualistic efforts to practice kind of
1:43:36got under my skin enough that I actually
1:43:38began to practice differently and that
1:43:41that sort of changed everything and then
1:43:43I did I did some Retreats thereafter in
1:43:46a more non-al way but
1:43:48um yeah I mean that was you know that
1:43:51had my my 20s were the project of my 20s
1:43:54was really all of that going to India
1:43:57studying and Nepal and and coming back
1:44:00and doing Retreat and then going back
1:44:01and studying with various teachers and
1:44:04so uh I think that so you you went on
1:44:06various where like you said upwards of
1:44:08three months you would go on Retreat
1:44:09right and this was all throughout your
1:44:1020s I'm also curious did Alan Watts in
1:44:13particular have any impact on you and
1:44:15your 20s as a writer or speaker yeah
1:44:17well I listened to pretty much all of
1:44:19his stuff online I not online on on
1:44:22audio C set it's now all online it's now
1:44:25we have his full archive yeah on waking
1:44:28up which is wonderful um I mean Watts
1:44:31was one of the the great communicators
1:44:33of this and it was just so entertaining
1:44:35to listen to him um I me he's not he's
1:44:40not he's not focused on the me the
1:44:42detailed mechanics of of meditation
1:44:44right he's you're not getting a lot of
1:44:46practice talk from him but like as far
1:44:49as the big picture insights of you know
1:44:52just what what is Eastern wisdom and you
1:44:54know how should we think about it he's
1:44:56he's one of the best speakers we've ever
1:44:59had he's really really wonderful okay
1:45:01cool yeah I was curious cuz I know you
1:45:02guys got the got them all on your
1:45:04platform and yeah before we move on
1:45:07because there's there's still quite a
1:45:09few things I want to dive into here uh
1:45:11in regards to Consciousness if you had
1:45:14to right now put in a time capsule your
1:45:17best answer in thesis and final thoughts
1:45:20and words on the hard problem of
1:45:22consciousness
1:45:24and we fast forward to the to the moment
1:45:27that problem is solved if it is right
1:45:30and we then go back and look at Sam
1:45:32Harris's words and thoughts on the
1:45:33matter what would you say if you had to
1:45:36put put that in put that in
1:45:38there well so so depends on what the
1:45:41solution is so so the hard problem is
1:45:44that and this this comes to us courtesy
1:45:46of the philosopher David Chalmers who
1:45:48coined the
1:45:50phrase um he pointed out that there's
1:45:53there all the quote easy problems of
1:45:56understanding the mind which is just you
1:45:58can understand how for instance with
1:46:02vision you know there's there's light
1:46:04that comes in and hits the retina and
1:46:06gets you know so you have you have
1:46:08electromagnetic energy that gets
1:46:11transformed into electrochemical energy
1:46:14in the nervous system you have a just a
1:46:16concat a series of of neuronal firings
1:46:19as a result of of light hitting the
1:46:21retina um and that gets encoded in
1:46:24visual cortex in various patterns and
1:46:26and there's what's called a retinotopic
1:46:28mapping of the visual scene on visual
1:46:30cortex and there's certain cells that
1:46:32are responsive to lines at a certain
1:46:34angle and we've we've come to understand
1:46:36all of this um it's very complicated but
1:46:39nothing in principle is profoundly
1:46:42counterintuitive and we can every step
1:46:44along the way we can we can understand
1:46:47what light is doing to specific
1:46:49molecules in the retina how those
1:46:51molecules affect you Downstream neuronal
1:46:54firing uh and then what happens how
1:46:57neurons function physically chemically
1:46:59electric
1:47:00electrochemically um how how how genetic
1:47:05you know encoding of protein relates to
1:47:07all of that receptors and and
1:47:09neurotransmitters like there's just it's
1:47:11it's Clockwork at bottom it's it's it's
1:47:13a very it's you know it's wet it's messy
1:47:16it's complicated but it is
1:47:19really um our intuitions run all the way
1:47:23through as you as you as you drill down
1:47:25on the micro of details there are no
1:47:28surprises like like the causality makes
1:47:31sense all the way through what doesn't
1:47:34make sense at
1:47:36all and what what is profoundly
1:47:40counterintuitive is that at some point
1:47:42along the way there's something that
1:47:45it's like to see right like like we we
1:47:48could imagine building a robot on the
1:47:50principles of of our visual system
1:47:53and having it visually navigate the
1:47:56world based on based on visual data but
1:48:01have it effectively be unconscious
1:48:03there'd be nothing that it's like to be
1:48:05that robot that robot would not
1:48:06experience Vision in any way all the
1:48:09while performing functionally in the
1:48:11world as a visual as a system that
1:48:14that's making use of visual data um in
1:48:17our case we have the full pyrot Technics
1:48:21of
1:48:22conscious life we have we we have the
1:48:24conscious experience of vision
1:48:27and that is fundamentally mysterious
1:48:30there's no description of the the micro
1:48:33events that makes the emergence of of
1:48:37conscious Vision perspicuous
1:48:41understandable um and what's more worse
1:48:44and the reason why this is really truly
1:48:45the hard problem as opposed to just yet
1:48:47another easy problem that we may one day
1:48:49solve is that it's It seems impossible
1:48:52to imagine
1:48:53what could be an exp explanation that
1:48:56would be would intuitively run through
1:48:58it's like you can't say oh but if only
1:49:02neurons were firing at this frequency
1:49:05well then okay then I understand why
1:49:07it's there's something that it's like to
1:49:09see right no no frequency is seems even
1:49:12relevant right like it it just it simply
1:49:14does not matter what frequency it is or
1:49:17how many neurons you get or what their
1:49:19pattern of connectivity is or what
1:49:20neurotransmitters are involved or none
1:49:23of that matters like that all of that is
1:49:25as
1:49:27strange as saying that you know if a if
1:49:31if a wind blows across a trailer park at
1:49:35exactly 146 M an hour and the trailer
1:49:38park is filled with watermelons and and
1:49:42beer uh that whole system becomes
1:49:46conscious becomes a conscious mind
1:49:48there's something that it's like to be a
1:49:49trailer park right but if you take away
1:49:51the watermelon it's not conscious
1:49:53anymore right that's it's a mere
1:49:55statement of a miracle right and that's
1:49:59what it seems like it would be would be
1:50:01happening in the case of any story about
1:50:04the the um the Wheelworks of
1:50:08neurophysiology so that's so the so the
1:50:10hard problem is if Consciousness emerges
1:50:13on the basis of unconscious complexity
1:50:15you know first you have unconscious
1:50:17information processing first you have
1:50:19unconscious uh molecules you know
1:50:22chemicals bouncing around but that at a
1:50:26certain point of integration at a
1:50:29certain point of of encoding the lights
1:50:32come on right if that's the way things
1:50:36work
1:50:37that you know those of us who are
1:50:40enamored of the the hard problem uh
1:50:43would say it's always going to seem like
1:50:45a miracle right like it's like that's
1:50:46not understandable that's that's the
1:50:49equivalent of saying before the Big Bang
1:50:52bang There was truly nothing and then
1:50:55everything exploded into being right
1:50:57like there's not just not just that
1:51:00there was there was nothing there was no
1:51:03heat and no energy and no matter there
1:51:05were no laws of nature either there was
1:51:07like nothing but then in a certain
1:51:09moment everything appeared including the
1:51:12laws of nature by which anything would
1:51:14further appear right okay that if you
1:51:16believe that and as you know as Terence
1:51:18McKenna once said if you can believe
1:51:19that you can believe anything like that
1:51:22it seems to be the the limit case for
1:51:24extreme credulity I think is what he
1:51:26said right so like it's it's like it's
1:51:28that is the the hardest thing possible
1:51:31to believe because because nothing is
1:51:34real nothing not just you know not
1:51:36having SpaceTime but like nothing not
1:51:38having laws of nature not having
1:51:40anything right real nothing is precisely
1:51:43what can't give rise to something let
1:51:45alone everything
1:51:48um
1:51:49analogously true unconsciousness you
1:51:52true nothing that it's like to be this
1:51:56system is precisely the thing that can't
1:51:59give rise to the something of
1:52:01Consciousness right and so there's it
1:52:03doesn't matter how you order it it
1:52:05doesn't matter it just it's not going to
1:52:07be intelligible
1:52:09now that doesn't mean that it isn't true
1:52:12right so like like I'm willing to say
1:52:14that it could just be a fact
1:52:18that neurons of in a certain
1:52:20configuration give rise to Consciousness
1:52:23and if you change your configuration
1:52:24slightly there's nothing that is like to
1:52:27be that set of neurons right U so
1:52:30Consciousness could truly be an emergent
1:52:32property of unconscious complexity and
1:52:35I'm just not capable of understanding
1:52:37how it's just that that's it's just a
1:52:39brute fact right and okay so that's
1:52:43that's just we would have to acknowledge
1:52:45that that is a condition in which we
1:52:49don't actually have a normal scientific
1:52:50explanation like our our our science
1:52:52scientific explanation of of life is
1:52:56truly a
1:52:58reduction that works and like you it
1:53:01used to be that people thought there was
1:53:02a profound mystery between
1:53:05distinguishing living and and non-living
1:53:08objects right so like there's a living
1:53:09system like an animal and a non-living
1:53:11system like a machine and there must be
1:53:14some like life force that explains this
1:53:17difference now if you leave
1:53:19Consciousness aside right and you're and
1:53:21you're actually just talking about the
1:53:24the you know how we Define life and just
1:53:26what a system has to be to qualify as as
1:53:29living you know how it how it
1:53:30metabolizes energy and reproduces and I
1:53:33mean like the definition of life is is a
1:53:35little fuzzy at the boundaries but um
1:53:38for instance it's it's not entirely
1:53:41clear whether you know it applies to
1:53:42something like a virus say but it's just
1:53:46it's a semantic judgment as to whether
1:53:48it would but
1:53:50um once you once you define your terms
1:53:53and you and you understand something
1:53:57like you know the molecular basis of
1:53:59inheritance you know just how DNA works
1:54:02and how you know cells divide and how U
1:54:05you know gametes uh uh you know form and
1:54:10and uh get together and how it's like
1:54:12like there is no there is no more to the
1:54:14mystery like we know we now know how
1:54:16babies get made and and we know how we
1:54:20pass on our genes and we know why kids
1:54:22resemble their parents and we know and
1:54:24we the biology of
1:54:27inheritance is you know again it's very
1:54:30complex there's still things we don't
1:54:31totally understand about it but there
1:54:33are no real Mysteries right like it's
1:54:35it's just it is a it is a concatenation
1:54:39of physical facts that when you drill
1:54:42down far
1:54:43enough it's it's amazing but it's not
1:54:46confounding right yeah but add
1:54:49Consciousness to this picture it just
1:54:51there's no place for it like there's
1:54:53just no there's no evidence of
1:54:55Consciousness in the universe apart from
1:54:58our direct experience of it and there's
1:55:00no indication that it would exist or
1:55:03should exist apart from our direct
1:55:05experience of it it's just it's and and
1:55:08yet our direct experience of
1:55:11it is the most is the only thing really
1:55:15that we can be certain of right it's
1:55:17like so so far be it there are some you
1:55:19know imbecilic statements that
1:55:21occasionally come out of philosophy and
1:55:22Neuroscience that suggest that
1:55:23Consciousness might be an illusion right
1:55:25Consciousness is the one thing in this
1:55:27universe that simply cannot be an
1:55:29illusion right because it is the thing
1:55:32that would give rise to any possible
1:55:33illusion right like if even if you were
1:55:36completely confused about what reality
1:55:39is even if you're in the Matrix right or
1:55:41this is all a
1:55:43simulation you know on in some alien
1:55:45supercomputer or you're you know you're
1:55:47a brain in a vet or you're psychotic and
1:55:50you're me you could be confused about
1:55:53everything you can't be
1:55:55confused that something seems to be
1:55:59happening that that's seeming is what we
1:56:01mean by
1:56:02Consciousness um
1:56:04so so par you know semi- paradoxically
1:56:08though we don't understand it we don't
1:56:10understand how it it arises or even you
1:56:12know at bottom whether it does in fact
1:56:15arise I mean it could be a more
1:56:16fundamental constituent of the Universe
1:56:20um though I'm not sure what I believe
1:56:22about that um though we don't understand
1:56:26it and we don't understand its place in
1:56:29nature we can understand that it's the
1:56:31one thing we are absolutely certain of
1:56:34in each
1:56:35moment uh and it's the basis upon which
1:56:38any further certainty would be would be
1:56:41granted to us about anything I mean it
1:56:43is it is our it is our conscious life
1:56:46that is the is the it's the only
1:56:49condition in which we do science in
1:56:51which we think think about you know
1:56:53Eternal truths of mathematics or
1:56:55anything else I me like we we we co all
1:56:58of
1:56:59cognition effectively you even though
1:57:02it's we understand that in our case it
1:57:04very likely has unconscious precursors
1:57:07right they're they cognitive operations
1:57:09there a there there's a lot to our
1:57:11mental lives that seems to be happening
1:57:13in the
1:57:14dark but anything that we can
1:57:18actually notice and talk about and
1:57:22directly experience is by definition
1:57:25something that's happening in
1:57:26Consciousness that was uh so fascinating
1:57:29for me as a listener just aside from
1:57:32being the host of the show which I now
1:57:35need to continue on with being um the uh
1:57:39so if you had to give your answer it's
1:57:42would you say it's then Consciousness
1:57:44awareness aware oh yes I didn't give you
1:57:46the time campal answer after all that R
1:57:48roll I did not give you the answer so so
1:57:50my answer is just that
1:57:53there's two possibilities if it emerges
1:57:55from unconscious complexity at some
1:57:59level um that may be true that may
1:58:02actually be the right answer U if that's
1:58:06true I think we will never understand
1:58:09that in the way we we want to understand
1:58:11any other thing like we don't there are
1:58:14things we understand we we we really do
1:58:16understand
1:58:17them and that will not be one of those
1:58:19things again we understand how DNA works
1:58:22works at least to a first approximation
1:58:23right we understand how it's like if you
1:58:25shatter a window we understand why it
1:58:28shatters and why it doesn't just melt
1:58:30right like because we understand about
1:58:32the lattice structure of the the
1:58:34molecules right we it's like brittleness
1:58:36at the higher level is the thing you
1:58:38would expect to emerge given the way the
1:58:41the the atoms in that substance are
1:58:44arranged um and so it is with the
1:58:47wetness of water right like it's like
1:58:49there are emerging properties and but
1:58:51yet they're understandable
1:58:52Consciousness is not that sort of
1:58:53immersion property so if this is in fact
1:58:56true in in 100 years if we just you know
1:58:58you the aliens land and us this is this
1:59:01is how Consciousness arises it's exactly
1:59:03this kind of unconscious processing that
1:59:05gives it you know that turns the lights
1:59:07on and look we turn the dial a little
1:59:09bit and the lights go out and then
1:59:10they're back on they're out they like
1:59:11they hear you can play with this dial as
1:59:13much as you want um and you'll notice
1:59:15that it's just ex this is exactly what
1:59:17Consciousness is in any physical system
1:59:20okay that's just that's amazing that's a
1:59:23miracle that's we don't understand it
1:59:24but we can just we can
1:59:27then live on that basis we could design
1:59:30conscious computers on that basis right
1:59:32like we could and we could design you
1:59:34know as I think we would want to
1:59:35unconscious computers that can't suffer
1:59:37and can't be happy and you know when you
1:59:39turn them off it's you're not murdering
1:59:41them right because they're not there's
1:59:42nothing that it's like to be those
1:59:43computers we cannot make the mistake of
1:59:46accidentally building conscious
1:59:47computers because now we understand that
1:59:49Consciousness is you know the way the
1:59:50lights go on is this way and and we can
1:59:52decide when we when we do
1:59:54that but I think it's more likely that
1:59:58we will um in the near term far be
2:00:02before we actually think we understand
2:00:04the the the true neural correlates of
2:00:07Consciousness I think we'll build
2:00:09computers that we think are conscious
2:00:11because they just seem to be conscious
2:00:12you know they and we might get build
2:00:14them in such a way where they they claim
2:00:16to be
2:00:18conscious but those of us who understand
2:00:20the hard problem won't know you know
2:00:23it'll just be it'll fundamentally be
2:00:25mysterious as to whether they're
2:00:26conscious
2:00:28and and yet will helplessly relate to
2:00:31them as though they are conscious
2:00:33because it'll seem Psychopathic not to I
2:00:36especially if you build anything like a
2:00:38a humanoid robot that really has
2:00:41appropriate facial expressions and and
2:00:43tones of voice and is obviously passing
2:00:46the touring test because it's smarter
2:00:48than you are and it's you know it's more
2:00:50it's totally aware of your emotions and
2:00:52it's seems to have emotions of its own
2:00:54cuz it's been built that way and uh
2:00:57you're now you're you you'll helplessly
2:00:58feel like you're in relationship to
2:01:00another conscious being and I think most
2:01:02of us will just lose sight of whether
2:01:04the the boundary between Consciousness
2:01:06and unconsciousness was ever an
2:01:08interesting problem we just won't know
2:01:10you know and we'll forget about it yeah
2:01:12so I'm asking you to speak in to some
2:01:15obvious unknowns here
2:01:17right so you said you would say
2:01:19essentially to boil it down your best
2:01:21guess is that it's probably unconscious
2:01:23complexity if you had a well so the
2:01:25alternative to that
2:01:28is that no it it doesn't in fact emerge
2:01:32it it goes all the way down into the
2:01:36most basic constituents of matter or
2:01:39this opposition between matter and
2:01:42Consciousness is at bottom misconceived
2:01:44and there's some you know the the the
2:01:49technical phrase for this in philosophy
2:01:51is is neutral monism I think I think I
2:01:54think it was bur and Russell who gave us
2:01:56this phrase but there's some neutral
2:01:58position conceptually from which to
2:02:00understand mind and matter that doesn't
2:02:02admit of this dualism so it's like I
2:02:04currently it it just seemed like there's
2:02:06there's a mystery there's the physics of
2:02:08things and then
2:02:10there's mind and Consciousness but you
2:02:13know now even mind it's mind without
2:02:15Consciousness isn't even that all that
2:02:17mysterious so it's really just there's
2:02:19physics that's unconscious and then
2:02:21there's ious and we don't know how to
2:02:24marry them we don't know where
2:02:25Consciousness comes into the picture um
2:02:29let's just say it doesn't come into the
2:02:30picture let's say it goes all the way
2:02:32down let's say that there's something
2:02:33that it's like to be an electron on some
2:02:36level right um doesn't mean that
2:02:39electron is thinking it doesn't mean
2:02:41that it uses language but like there's
2:02:43some interior Dimension to everything
2:02:48that we would recognize as Consciousness
2:02:50the the lights are on in some sense all
2:02:52the way down now I think there are
2:02:54reasons to be doubtful of that I I think
2:02:57that's that doesn't truly solve the hard
2:03:00problem because it's still we still have
2:03:01the problem
2:03:03of this apparent difference between
2:03:06everything we can be consciously aware
2:03:08of in our experience and the stuff that
2:03:10still seems to be going on in the dark
2:03:12that we know is related to the stuff we
2:03:14can be aware of right so I mean you
2:03:17asked me a few minutes
2:03:19ago um
2:03:21about uh uh gurus who misbehave and I um
2:03:25gave you an example of a rock star and
2:03:27the best I could do was John bonjovi
2:03:29right right so like like so I'm thinking
2:03:32I like I go into to uh Rockstar Rockstar
2:03:36search mode right I'm looking for rock
2:03:38stars in my memory and for whatever
2:03:42reason I know the names of many
2:03:44performers but John John bonjovi is the
2:03:46one that came up uh you know dating me
2:03:49and uh you know scandalizing everyone
2:03:51who actually cares about modern music
2:03:52presumably um but
2:03:56uh it's it's fundamental so so as aware
2:04:00as I can possibly be of my experience I
2:04:02can't be aware of the search algorithm
2:04:05that's happening in my brain that is
2:04:07promoting various rock stars to from
2:04:11memory yeah and I mean I could keep I
2:04:14can I could consciously decide okay no
2:04:16John there's no way I'm saying John
2:04:18bonjovi I'm just going to wait here
2:04:19until I get something else right and uh
2:04:22something else will come but I but
2:04:24there's there's some set of physical
2:04:27events that is conspiring to you know
2:04:31that to curate those you know
2:04:33deliverances from
2:04:35memory that I can't inspect right and
2:04:38it's still I know I know my my brain is
2:04:41doing it but it seems not to be
2:04:44associated with Consciousness now it's
2:04:46possible that there's some other way of
2:04:49understanding Consciousness where no
2:04:51there's actually that would push
2:04:53Consciousness back even into that which
2:04:55is yeah you know maybe there's a maybe
2:04:57there are multiple conscious points of
2:04:59view even in a single brain right maybe
2:05:01you know we and there is something that
2:05:04is like to be the part of me that was
2:05:08just doing the math on you know old
2:05:11memories right but I somehow doubt it
2:05:14like that doesn't that seems that
2:05:16doesn't seem like the most parsimonious
2:05:18way to to explain our experience you
2:05:21light of what we know about the brain
2:05:24so but these are these are fundamentally
2:05:27different pictures if Consciousness goes
2:05:29all the way down to the to
2:05:31bedrock um well then that's hard that
2:05:35that's also hard to understand but it's
2:05:37hard to understand anything that goes
2:05:38down to bedrock I mean we we don't at a
2:05:40certain point in science you just have
2:05:42to admit that you have to say you take
2:05:44certain things as given I mean it's just
2:05:48you know and whether space and time are
2:05:50among those Givens is is a matter of
2:05:52debate I mean there there physicists who
2:05:53are trying to to find ways of thinking
2:05:56about physics that don't take space and
2:05:58time as primitive say space and time are
2:06:00emergent phenomenon of some more basic
2:06:02physics but there are other approaches
2:06:05to physics that take space time as
2:06:07primitive um so anyway at a certain
2:06:09point you have to pull yourself up by
2:06:11your bootstraps and you can't be
2:06:14pretending to understand the straps
2:06:16right like there's there's a brute fact
2:06:18of something that you're that you're
2:06:20assuming actually atically in order to
2:06:23do any kind of further work of
2:06:25understanding anything this is true
2:06:26mathematically it's true uh
2:06:28scientifically and it's possible that
2:06:30Consciousness is just one of those
2:06:31things so um so then so then in a
2:06:35thousand years we might say no
2:06:38consciousness is one of the things you
2:06:40don't have to understand you know
2:06:41Consciousness is like SpaceTime right
2:06:44that's it's just the condition in which
2:06:46all of this is happening right or
2:06:48Consciousness is like you know causality
2:06:52right
2:06:53like causes preced
2:06:56events We're not gonna we're not going
2:06:58to spend any time trying to figure out
2:07:01if there's something other than deeper
2:07:02than causality you know the beginning of
2:07:05everything was the beginning we're not
2:07:07going to ask ourselves how the beginning
2:07:10began I mean like like there's just you
2:07:11know there's
2:07:14you again there's no I think
2:07:18scientists there might be some
2:07:20exceptions here but basically science
2:07:22has given up
2:07:24on coming up with a set of laws that
2:07:28become perfectly self-explanatory
2:07:30there's going to be some brute you know
2:07:32axiomatic fact that is just a starting
2:07:36point so so diving uh diving because I
2:07:39want to I'm mindful of the time that we
2:07:41have left I do want to touch on free
2:07:42will uh here a little bit you would kind
2:07:45of final thought is that you would
2:07:47probably lean towards if you had to say
2:07:49the best guess unconscious complexity
2:07:51like if in a succinct way got I
2:07:54mean cuz you're more qualified to speak
2:07:57on this than most people I mean I just I
2:08:00the truth is I just don't know how
2:08:02Consciousness arises like I would not I
2:08:06on some
2:08:07level I would not be surprised by any
2:08:11any variant of this thesis it's like you
2:08:14know if if in fact Consciousness is
2:08:17integrated with matter in a way that we
2:08:20just fundamentally don't understand and
2:08:22we're misled by all of our interrogation
2:08:25of the brain and you know you know
2:08:28general anesthesia and the Consciousness
2:08:30seems to get you know turned off in in
2:08:33those that case and it's like we just
2:08:35there's some other purview from which
2:08:37this whole problem intellectually seems
2:08:40different and uh we're just confused you
2:08:44know analogous to like you know we're
2:08:45we're dealing with you know three
2:08:47dimensions of space and we just have not
2:08:50thought about the possibility of a
2:08:52fourth dimension of anything right like
2:08:54we just haven't done the math and you
2:08:57know the Cur a curvature of space is um
2:09:01much less SpaceTime is not something we
2:09:03just can't imagine because we just don't
2:09:04have the concept for it maybe there's
2:09:06something analogous there that would
2:09:09just makes the problem seem different
2:09:11but um that wouldn't surprise me and it
2:09:14also wouldn't surprise me if it's
2:09:17emerging on the basis of of information
2:09:19processing in some con figuration and
2:09:23that's always going to seem like a
2:09:24miracle to us right so wonderful so uh
2:09:28again quickly if you had to say a best
2:09:32guess probability what do you feel as a
2:09:34likelihood that we will engineer
2:09:35Consciousness into super intelligent
2:09:38AGI well as I said I think the pro the
2:09:42far more likely situation is that we
2:09:44will we create the
2:09:46intelligence and have no idea whether
2:09:49it's conscious it'll be
2:09:50indistinguishable yeah it'll just be
2:09:52it'll it'll seem more conscious than us
2:09:54because it'll be more intelligent than
2:09:55us I have no doubt there there is simply
2:09:58no doubt that intelligence is substrate
2:10:01independent I mean there's just there's
2:10:03just no reason to think that there's
2:10:04something magical about biology with
2:10:08respect to what we mean by intelligence
2:10:10and we've just we've what we have now is
2:10:13already
2:10:14so effectively intelligent that you know
2:10:18even if you're going to go come at it in
2:10:19a peac meal way even if even even if
2:10:21forget about trying to perfectly emulate
2:10:25human intelligence let's just take the
2:10:26top hundred things we care about as as
2:10:29you know acts of
2:10:30cognition uh and
2:10:32intelligence each one of those can you
2:10:35know just we already know it's like
2:10:36arithmetic yes you can build a
2:10:38superhuman calculator and all of us have
2:10:41one in our pockets right now you know
2:10:43it's just your smartphone is better at
2:10:44arithmetic than you will ever be and
2:10:47just just add up all of those
2:10:49capacities we know they're all sub
2:10:51independent and we know recognizing
2:10:53faces and recognizing the gender of
2:10:55faces and recognizing voices
2:10:58and all of that is you know all of
2:11:01these human
2:11:03attributes um are accomplished in in
2:11:07silico now right
2:11:08so I think it's it's not going to be
2:11:11much longer before we have systems that
2:11:15pass the Turing test in all the ways
2:11:18that could matter to us I mean even if
2:11:20they seem weird in some other ways or
2:11:22just not quite human I mean they they
2:11:24they won't they'll fail the Turning test
2:11:28the moment they pass it because they'll
2:11:30pass it so spectacularly it'll be
2:11:32obvious they're not human it's like it's
2:11:35it's already obvious that no human knows
2:11:37it has inst no human has instantaneous
2:11:39access to everything on the internet
2:11:42right so the fact that I can ask chat
2:11:44GPT something and it can give me
2:11:48facts more comprehensively and in a more
2:11:51orderly way and faster than any person
2:11:54can even even if it's not perfect in
2:11:56other areas the fact that I can say you
2:11:58know what are the causes of World War II
2:12:00and it within 5 seconds can give me a
2:12:02mini essay on the causes of World War II
2:12:05that's better than you know any you know
2:12:08academic historian can accomplish in the
2:12:10in the same span of time all right it's
2:12:12already superhuman it's already I
2:12:13already know there's not a little man in
2:12:16the Box you know typing you know his
2:12:18answer to me um so so they will be the
2:12:23moment they're General they'll be not
2:12:27human level but superum and the moment
2:12:31we give them any kind of relational
2:12:35capacity that matters the moment they
2:12:38become sensitive to our tone of voice
2:12:41and our facial expression and the moment
2:12:44we're integrated with them you know you
2:12:45you're you're piping your watch data or
2:12:47your ring data to your AI assistant so
2:12:50it it's been tracking your heart heart
2:12:53rate and sleep cycles too right it's
2:12:56integrating all that information for you
2:12:58then you're going to be talking to a a
2:13:01machine you know forget about a humanoid
2:13:04robot where that's you know going to
2:13:06make it seem like Westworld I mean even
2:13:08if it's just Siri on your phone but just
2:13:09the next iteration of Siri that is you
2:13:12know essentially chat GPT 5 you know
2:13:16plus all of your your uh Health
2:13:19Data you're going to be in the presence
2:13:21of something
2:13:23that is more observant of your inner
2:13:27life than any person can be from the
2:13:30outside so it's going to know you better
2:13:31than your spouse knows you on some level
2:13:34right especially if it's reading your
2:13:36emails and reading your texts and it's
2:13:38it's read everything you've ever
2:13:40published and listen to all like in my
2:13:41case you know my wife hasn't listened to
2:13:44my podcasts right like I've got 300
2:13:46episodes in my podcast that my virtual
2:13:49assistant will have heard right um my
2:13:53wife hasn't heard them so she doesn't
2:13:55know what I was thinking about on all
2:13:56those for all those hours right I'm
2:13:58going to be in the presence of Siri that
2:14:01uh can say sam you know you you
2:14:03definitely you look tired you sound
2:14:05tired um you're not you here here are
2:14:08five things I want you to pay attention
2:14:10to you know this is what you forgot you
2:14:12wanted to do today but you sent that
2:14:14email to uh uh it's like it it will be
2:14:19you'll sudden the moment the thing is
2:14:21responsive
2:14:23to you
2:14:26relationally you you are going to feel
2:14:29helplessly feel that you're in the
2:14:30presence of the smartest most perceptive
2:14:33person you've ever met
2:14:37and that's going to feel like being in
2:14:39the presence of Consciousness right
2:14:41especially if we don't I mean if if we
2:14:43hamstring the the thing to say at every
2:14:45moment to remind us at every moment
2:14:47listen I'm just a dumb machine you're
2:14:49not killing me when you turn me off I'm
2:14:50not ious and nothing that's like to be
2:14:52me you haven't solved the hard problem
2:14:54problem you know that's possible but at
2:14:57a certain point I don't know I mean like
2:15:00again the for me Westworld is
2:15:03unimaginable because in the presence of
2:15:06perfectly humanoid robots which is to
2:15:09say we're out of The Uncanny Valley they
2:15:11no longer look weird they look human and
2:15:14they're and so they're facial displays
2:15:15of emotion are not spooky they're just
2:15:18like they look human the if we ever get
2:15:22there and I you know I don't think
2:15:23there's any reason to think we
2:15:25won't
2:15:27um there's no way you could have a place
2:15:29like Westworld where you're treating
2:15:31them badly and you know raping them and
2:15:33killing them and like like
2:15:35because you will feel like a psychopath
2:15:38you will be viewed as a psychopath by
2:15:41other people like you like if that's
2:15:43your idea of fun if your idea of fun is
2:15:45to rape and kill Dolores right you're a
2:15:49rapist murderer right like like that's
2:15:51like it doesn't matter that she's a
2:15:52robot right because it's too compelling
2:15:55an illusion the fact that you were able
2:15:57to give yourself over to the illusion
2:16:00with that kind of you know rapacity um
2:16:03proves that there's something wrong with
2:16:05you right and and so that like so
2:16:08Westworld I think is Unthinkable or at
2:16:10least like otherwise it would just
2:16:12function as a a bug light for a
2:16:15Psychopaths but um yeah so which is to
2:16:18say that once we're in the presence of
2:16:20anything like a a perfectly compelling
2:16:24humanoid
2:16:25robot it's going to be a very weird
2:16:27world and we're we're not going to know
2:16:30you know very likely we're not going to
2:16:32know whether they're conscious and yet
2:16:34we're going to helplessly relate to them
2:16:36as though they're their people going
2:16:39into a little bit of free will so I want
2:16:41to actually take a moment to let
2:16:43everyone know that I'll link down in the
2:16:45description a longer podcast you did on
2:16:48your final thoughts on Free Will for
2:16:49people that want to dive deeper into
2:16:51this but to share uh to share like a few
2:16:54minutes on like your consensus on your
2:16:56thoughts on Free Will I think would be
2:16:58very valuable here because it is one of
2:17:00those things that once you start to dive
2:17:02into and realize the ucer nature of it
2:17:05can actually become very freeing this
2:17:08this inner control and arrogance that we
2:17:11kind of have that we're in charge of
2:17:13reality starts to diminish a little bit
2:17:16and also can increase compassion that we
2:17:18have for all beings
2:17:21and this this awareness that we are not
2:17:24the F first author of different causes
2:17:27that are happening that are springing
2:17:28forth within us like John Bon Joi yeah
2:17:31is uh is rather fascinating it doesn't
2:17:33remove the fact that we have choice that
2:17:35we have responsibility but where it's
2:17:38originally coming from we are not uh we
2:17:41are not in a vacuum of sorts where we
2:17:42can actually choose that fully to choose
2:17:44to choose right yeah yeah yeah so so to
2:17:48say that Free Will is an illusion is
2:17:50really just the flip side of saying that
2:17:52the self is an illusion I what what
2:17:53people mean by free
2:17:55will is that they are the true they they
2:18:00the subject the inner subject the
2:18:02conscious experiencer of their
2:18:04experience is the true author of thought
2:18:08and action and will right so like the
2:18:11you you feel yourself to be again not
2:18:13the totality of your body not your
2:18:16beliefs about your brain but the the
2:18:18subject the the one who can
2:18:21move his attention from you know
2:18:24from you can you can direct your
2:18:26attention to to part of your visual
2:18:29field and then you can decide to get up
2:18:31and and go make a cup of tea like that
2:18:34the the the one who who can seize the
2:18:37reins of attention the one who can
2:18:39decide to to change a behavioral plan or
2:18:43to initiate
2:18:44one it feels like something to be at the
2:18:47center of that causality and that
2:18:50feeling is the is what we're calling I I
2:18:54mean that that that's this feeling of of
2:18:57of being a
2:18:59self and when you penetrate that
2:19:01illusion then you notice that everything
2:19:03is just happening all by itself like
2:19:05it's it does not nullify the difference
2:19:07between voluntary and involuntary action
2:19:10I mean there's still a difference
2:19:11between deciding you want to reach for a
2:19:14glass of water versus you know
2:19:16inadvertently knocking the glass over or
2:19:18having a you know a Tremor that
2:19:21that you can't control right and you're
2:19:23not consciously initiating those are all
2:19:25differences I mean the one difference is
2:19:28in my reaching for a glass of water it's
2:19:31preceded by the thought that I want to
2:19:34take a drink of water and the the Fe the
2:19:37felt intention to reach if my arm was
2:19:39just moving and I wasn't feeling any
2:19:42Associated intention well then I would
2:19:44feel like I had alien hand syndrome I
2:19:46there the there are neurological
2:19:48conditions like this I mean that's
2:19:49that's what alien hand syndrome is where
2:19:50the the hand just starts behaving in
2:19:52ways where the the inner subject doesn't
2:19:55feel any Associated intention and so
2:19:59it's like it's really it's like a
2:20:00foreign arm you know and it's you know
2:20:03as you can imagine quite
2:20:04disconcerting
2:20:06um so getting rid of Free Will doesn't
2:20:10obviate any of those distinctions it's
2:20:12it's just it gets it gets rid of this
2:20:14fundamental illusion that
2:20:16there's that there's someone in there's
2:20:18a subject in the driver's seat who can
2:20:21do the Willing who can do the Desiring
2:20:23who can do the who can initiate the next
2:20:25thought as though who who stands
2:20:29Upstream of all of these of all of
2:20:32this uh all these patterns that
2:20:36produce uh intentions and and further
2:20:39actions so but but again the illusion is
2:20:42so powerful for people that they they
2:20:45feel that there really is a mystery here
2:20:46where so like they they know that they
2:20:49have free will because they know that
2:20:51they are selves right and they know that
2:20:54they can decide to do one thing versus
2:20:57the other and they know that it feels a
2:20:59certain way to do
2:21:01that and so the buck really seems to
2:21:03stop here in my my conscious sense of my
2:21:06own subjectivity and
2:21:09agency and then they're told okay but
2:21:11actually in the dark behind all that
2:21:14there's this whole concatenation of
2:21:15causes for which you're totally
2:21:17unresponsible I mean you're you're you
2:21:20didn't pick your parents you didn't pick
2:21:22your genes you didn't pick all of the
2:21:24influences to the nervous system that
2:21:26got built on the on the basis of your
2:21:29genetic
2:21:30inheritance so literally like everything
2:21:32the fact that you have a brain the fact
2:21:34you have a brain in precisely this
2:21:36Conformity the fact that it was you know
2:21:38tuned by all of it its collisions for
2:21:41all these years with you know an
2:21:44environment you did none of that right
2:21:47and yet that is all of that that whole
2:21:49mechanism is 100% of the
2:21:53explanation for the next thing you do
2:21:55right so when when I have to think of of
2:21:58a a rock star and I think of B John
2:22:02bonjovi in what sense like the conscious
2:22:06subject in me is just waiting to hear
2:22:10what comes out of the dark right it's
2:22:12like it's like I'm just it's like I went
2:22:14for it's like I I I I pushed the you
2:22:16know deliver Rockstar name button and
2:22:18the truth is I you know there's no place
2:22:22to stand where my authorship really is
2:22:26is um visible because like Upstream of
2:22:31of that choice was well why was I
2:22:33looking for a rockstar I could have I
2:22:35could have been thinking of something
2:22:36else like the category Rockstar was not
2:22:38something I consciously initiated
2:22:39everything is being
2:22:42promoted out of the dark on some level I
2:22:45mean you you you can't think a thought
2:22:49until you think it right like you
2:22:51there's an there would be an infinite
2:22:53regress you me you
2:22:54can't at a certain point something just
2:22:57emerges out of this mystery that's at
2:23:00your back you know as a matter of
2:23:02Consciousness um and we know as a matter
2:23:04of causality that it pushes all the way
2:23:06back to again your genome and every
2:23:10prior
2:23:11influence so at what point can you claim
2:23:14to be responsible for all of that and
2:23:18um when you pay attention to what it's
2:23:20like to be you you can notice that you
2:23:23don't even feel responsible for it in
2:23:26some sense you're always in the presence
2:23:28of a mystery now that's not to say that
2:23:31it doesn't matter what you do and what
2:23:33you decide and what kind of person you
2:23:34are I mean like it's not like everyone
2:23:36gets gets off the hook by reason of
2:23:38insanity it's like it's it's still
2:23:41possible to be ethical versus unethical
2:23:44and to be compassionate versus you know
2:23:47malignantly selfish I mean all of these
2:23:48differences matter because they have
2:23:50very different consequences in the world
2:23:52and they and they link up to very
2:23:53different kinds of minds and motivations
2:23:57and
2:23:59um so but at bottom
2:24:02it an insight into the ucer of Free Will
2:24:05does change a few things ethically and
2:24:07one thing it it changes
2:24:10is the the basis for hating other people
2:24:14really does go away because on some
2:24:16level you begin to view
2:24:18people as
2:24:21as more analogous to forces of nature or
2:24:23as you know wild animals or
2:24:24malfunctioning robots or I mean people
2:24:26who are behaving badly on some level are
2:24:29are are doing precisely the only thing
2:24:32they could do in that moment and yeah
2:24:35the idea that they could have done
2:24:36otherwise or should have done otherwise
2:24:39it's not that it it's totally
2:24:41inadmissible but but when you when you
2:24:42begin saying you should have done
2:24:44otherwise you could have done otherwise
2:24:46what you're really admonishing a person
2:24:48to about is not the past but the future
2:24:51I mean you're trying to in so far as a
2:24:53person can be changed by by your
2:24:56criticism and your argument and your
2:24:58reaction to their
2:25:00misbehavior the reason to react in that
2:25:03way and to and to feel the validity of
2:25:05reacting in that way is to change them
2:25:07for the future you can't go back into
2:25:09the past and and change what they did so
2:25:12if you're so and so and this is very
2:25:14clear with you know you raising kids
2:25:16like you want kids to grow up to be
2:25:19honest compassionate well- integrated
2:25:22members of society
2:25:24so yeah they don't start out that way
2:25:26and so you have to keep saying okay you
2:25:28shouldn't you shouldn't have done that
2:25:29next time do this but you're not you're
2:25:33not imagining at each stage along the
2:25:35way that they could really be different
2:25:36than they were at that stage and
2:25:39ultimately that's true for
2:25:43even you know quintessentially you know
2:25:46evil uh adults right like you're just
2:25:49you know the just the
2:25:50the must the mustache twirling
2:25:52psychopath who's you know who murdered
2:25:54lots of people because he likes to
2:25:55murder people well okay you still want
2:25:58to put that person in prison because you
2:26:00want to keep everyone safe from him but
2:26:03you have to recognize that on some level
2:26:05once you get rid of the illusion of free
2:26:06will you recognize that that person is
2:26:08some is basically analogous to you know
2:26:11a great white shark or a grizzly bear or
2:26:14a tiger or any other you know system
2:26:17that is intrinsically dangerous to be
2:26:19close to yeah like there just there this
2:26:22he's not available to to argument he's
2:26:24he's basic just he's fundamentally
2:26:26incorrigible just as a tiger would be
2:26:29you know a wild tiger would be um so it
2:26:33doesn't mean you can't try to avoid that
2:26:35person put that person in prison find a
2:26:38cure for that person if if we ever get a
2:26:40cure for psychopathy we would we would
2:26:42use that but it's not that it doesn't
2:26:44mean it's not a problem but it's not a
2:26:47free it's not a problem of Free Will
2:26:49being misused right like no one picked
2:26:52their even if you think people have
2:26:54souls right like no one picked their
2:26:56soul no there's no psychopath walking
2:26:59around with a psychopathic soul Who's
2:27:02responsible for having made his soul
2:27:03Psychopathic it's like he's he's unlucky
2:27:06he got a bad Soul right if if Souls
2:27:08exist if without souls he got bad genes
2:27:12and a bad environment and a bad you know
2:27:15contingent yeah neurology so it creates
2:27:19so much
2:27:21uh compassion on one hand as well
2:27:22because you look at someone like Hitler
2:27:24or uh the mustache twirling sociopath
2:27:28psychopath murderer and if you like you
2:27:31spoke in your book free will you give
2:27:33these examples if you then discovered on
2:27:36the other hand that there was a brain
2:27:37tumor pushing upon someone's Amiga that
2:27:39would completely change how you view
2:27:41them but if it's essentially that all
2:27:43the way down right yeah and you can just
2:27:46without even referencing the Neurology
2:27:47of it just look at the the timeline of
2:27:51somebody in somebody's life it's like
2:27:52you take Hitler okay well
2:27:54Hitler is you know the the
2:27:56quintessentially evil person who
2:27:58everyone should just kill right it's
2:28:00like like assass we we wish that the
2:28:02plots against Hitler trying to
2:28:04assassinate him had actually worked
2:28:06right so and they would they were
2:28:07completely Justified right um but at
2:28:10what point in his life would it would it
2:28:13have been Justified to kill Hitler I
2:28:14mean killing the 25-year-old Hitler
2:28:17before he has done anything especially
2:28:20egregious well you know he's going to
2:28:21become the The 40-Year-Old Hitler who's
2:28:24just awful um yeah you might want to
2:28:27stop that but I I think even Lou K has a
2:28:30joke about this like do do you go back
2:28:32and kill Hitler in his crib like like
2:28:35you're G to kill a b like you're really
2:28:36going to kill a baby like it's a baby
2:28:38like now we're talking about a baby okay
2:28:41the truth is Hitler the baby is just
2:28:44unlucky it's like it's it it's a baby
2:28:47who's for for whatever reason is going
2:28:49to grow up to be Hitler right but as a
2:28:52baby it's just a baby right so it's it's
2:28:55like the baby is not culpable for
2:28:58becoming the one-year-old who becomes
2:28:59the 2-year-old who becomes a
2:29:01three-year-old who like at what point
2:29:02does the does Hitler become culpable for
2:29:04being
2:29:05Hitler I don't think he does that that
2:29:08doesn't mean you don't kill Hitler at a
2:29:10certain like if if there's nothing else
2:29:11to do you know if you can't lock him up
2:29:13I completely in favor of killing Hitler
2:29:15at a certain point now which day you
2:29:17pick in his life is is is a judgment
2:29:20call but
2:29:22um it's uh at no point did he make
2:29:25himself and that's true of everybody
2:29:28else that was that was great and the
2:29:31last line in your book on Free Will you
2:29:33say that you're not in control of the
2:29:36storm you are not lost in it you are the
2:29:38storm and uh I think that's a beautiful
2:29:40note to wrap up the Free Will topic
2:29:42there yeah last last little thing you've
2:29:44shared that on one level you can't go
2:29:47wrong if you live a life motivated by
2:29:49love and guided by reason I'd love for
2:29:52you to share a little bit about that in
2:29:54your kind of final notes Here your
2:29:56vision for what an awakened Humanity
2:29:58looks like
2:30:01because uh I see you as somebody that
2:30:04has such a profound and deep
2:30:06understanding of The Human Condition and
2:30:08yet we find ourselves in a time with a
2:30:11lot of problems that can be solved and
2:30:14freedom to be discovered on an
2:30:15individual and Collective
2:30:17level what is your vision for an
2:30:19awakened Humanity
2:30:20and uh we'll wrap there yeah I think I
2:30:25would add one piece I'm not sure it's I
2:30:28think maybe you can get everything out
2:30:30of love and and reason um but there's
2:30:33one piece that I I would add that um
2:30:37does a lot of work that seems at least
2:30:39conceptually separable and and that's
2:30:42gratitude I think there's something
2:30:45about gratitude
2:30:46that that heals so much that's wrong
2:30:50with us personally psychologically it's
2:30:53just like it it's um so so like if you
2:30:58push if you push far enough in the
2:31:00direction of
2:31:01gratitude it there's so many
2:31:05psychological and ethical errors you can
2:31:08no longer make right like it it it it it
2:31:11almost contains everything we mean by
2:31:12love as well um but I mean just you just
2:31:16recognize that mean for virtually anyone
2:31:20I mean unless you're literally the the
2:31:21least lucky person who's ever lived
2:31:24there's just so much to be grateful for
2:31:26I mean it's just like there just there's
2:31:28so much that
2:31:30is good about even a a very
2:31:36ordinary conflicted difficult life when
2:31:38you compare it to to everything else
2:31:40that is possible right um and this is
2:31:44where like the philosophy of stoicism is
2:31:46is so useful to so many people I mean
2:31:48the stoics often
2:31:50recommend a a reflection of just this
2:31:52sort I mean just think about all the
2:31:54terrible things that haven't happened to
2:31:56you right and that that have happening
2:31:58to somebody else right now right and
2:31:59just there are people who would consider
2:32:02all of their prayers answered if they
2:32:04could just trade places with you right
2:32:06now even when you're in the midst of
2:32:09something that you consider to be
2:32:12genuinely difficult right you've got
2:32:13some problem that really is capturing
2:32:16100% of your attention it's like it's
2:32:18still so much better than so many so
2:32:21much of what's
2:32:22possible and on that b when you
2:32:24recognize that when you be when you the
2:32:26more more you can see your life in those
2:32:29terms kindness and compassion almost by
2:32:32definition fall out of that it's like
2:32:34you just you that synonymous with having
2:32:37compassion for all the people who and
2:32:40all the you know beyond people all the
2:32:42people and and conscious beings that
2:32:46that have it so much worse than you have
2:32:48it right and through through just pure
2:32:51luck right I mean it's just it is just
2:32:53it's unearned on some level right
2:32:57um and it's on that basis that you just
2:33:00you want to be kind to people because
2:33:03you just don't
2:33:04know one you in in in some first of all
2:33:08you you know everyone's going to die you
2:33:10know everyone's going to lose everything
2:33:12they love and everyone close to them
2:33:13right like no matter how it's like we're
2:33:15we're all United in this in this
2:33:18circumstance of of
2:33:20fundamental impermanence and and and
2:33:23fragility um so I don't know it's like
2:33:27we're all moving through life where you
2:33:28know most of us I mean certainly anyone
2:33:29who has the free attention to to listen
2:33:31to a conversation like this and find any
2:33:34of this interesting you know that's
2:33:35almost synonymous with having escaped
2:33:38some of the worst you know variants of
2:33:40suffering on offer at least for a
2:33:42significant period of
2:33:44time and you know so we're all just it's
2:33:47like it's like it's like the CL it's
2:33:49like we the sun is continually coming
2:33:52out from behind the clouds and we're get
2:33:53we're we're enjoying this this moment in
2:33:56of sunlight and then it goes behind the
2:33:58clouds again and there's lots to
2:34:00struggle through and then we get these
2:34:02moments of sunlight and it's
2:34:04just it's we should be so grateful for
2:34:08for these moments and um for all that we
2:34:13have and all that we don't have to
2:34:16to suffer and
2:34:20uh the only thing that is
2:34:23safeguarding the this project
2:34:25collectively that that ensures that even
2:34:29the luckiest Among Us can cooperate with
2:34:32one another and collaborate in an
2:34:34open-ended way and build you know and
2:34:36make the future look better than the
2:34:39past the all really the only tool Beyond
2:34:43just the good willll that wants to wants
2:34:47that project to succeed you know the
2:34:48love and and
2:34:50kindness and gratitude that that would
2:34:53grease those gears is reason I mean we
2:34:56just all we have is a disposition to
2:34:59talk about facts to care about facts to
2:35:02be consistent to be self-aware of our
2:35:05own ignorance and our own capacity for
2:35:07self-deception and wishful thinking and
2:35:10cognitive bias to to meet other people
2:35:14we've got we've got the circumstance
2:35:16we've got 8 billion strangers you know
2:35:18more virtually everyone is a no matter
2:35:20how many people you know virtually
2:35:21everyone is a
2:35:22stranger and all you can do is reason
2:35:26with them from a from a basic
2:35:29inclination to cooperate and find some
2:35:32you know future that's compatible with
2:35:34with more and more of us more of the
2:35:37time leading better lives right and so
2:35:41it's like either we're going to
2:35:42recognize that we're all in principle on
2:35:43the same team in the limit and um try to
2:35:50solve some you know increasingly complex
2:35:53coordination problems um and build the
2:35:56tools to do that and or we're going to
2:35:59fail spectacularly at the attempt to do
2:36:01that and our failure will it's totally
2:36:04predictable our failure will be born of
2:36:08of failures of rationality and failures
2:36:11of of um good willll right I mean
2:36:14failures of Love failures of of
2:36:17um kindness failures of of to act in our
2:36:22what really is in our own best interest
2:36:24if we could only see it I mean the the
2:36:26idea that that we could ever wind up in
2:36:29a condition that is permanently zero sum
2:36:32is just it's just a crazy illusion given
2:36:36the circumstance we're actually in I
2:36:37mean given how given how good life could
2:36:40be if we just got our heads screwed on
2:36:43straight and
2:36:44cooperated without political division
2:36:47and dogmatism and you all of these other
2:36:51these structures that reliably cause
2:36:53conversations to fail you know I mean it
2:36:55just um it it really doesn't seem wrong
2:37:00to expect something like a Utopia if we
2:37:03could only get over our very you know
2:37:09basic uh political and apish you know
2:37:13you know disinclination to cooperate
2:37:15with one another um but reason is the is
2:37:20really it's the only tool for the job
2:37:22because it's the only algorithm you can
2:37:24run where even if people don't like each
2:37:27other and are emotionally unavailable
2:37:32they're they're
2:37:33resisting uh playing well with
2:37:37others reason because of its Universal
2:37:40characteristics because you can show
2:37:42people you can you can show your enemies
2:37:45that they're not even that they're be
2:37:46that they're contradicting themselves
2:37:48right it has a capacity to
2:37:52force
2:37:53convergence and really drag drag people
2:37:56kicking and screaming to Across the
2:37:59finish line of of cooperation
2:38:03because at bottom reality has a certain
2:38:07structure I mean things certain things
2:38:08are true and and certain things are
2:38:09false and C certain Maps fit the
2:38:12territory better than other maps and we
2:38:16all even if we are confused about
2:38:20in the game we're playing people tend
2:38:23not to like to bump into hard objects in
2:38:25the dark right I mean they want to know
2:38:27where they're going and uh so that in so
2:38:30far there so far as there are right
2:38:31answers to any questions of importance
2:38:34reason is the thing that
2:38:36will ensure our that we're we're
2:38:38tracking that
2:38:40and so um yeah apart from PE people who
2:38:44are
2:38:45completely psychotic or and completely
2:38:48psychopathic
2:38:50these are just fundamentally unavailable
2:38:51to any kind of you know Cooperative
2:38:54effort you know reason is the thing that
2:38:57is going to you know even in the absence
2:38:59of of appropriate love and and good
2:39:03feeling is going to align all of our
2:39:05interests and and so we just
2:39:07um yeah I mean on some level it's the
2:39:09only game in town for strangers to play
2:39:12just what you shared about how yeah
2:39:14reason really being the modality in
2:39:16which we can find ourselves to solution
2:39:19that are necessary in this time right
2:39:22but without like empathy and gratitude
2:39:24without reason has no guide and reason
2:39:27without empathy or gratitude is not
2:39:30alive it's not fully alive and this talk
2:39:33and how we've been walking this dance
2:39:34throughout this whole conversation and
2:39:35much of the work that you do of this
2:39:37integrating rational thinking with the
2:39:38spiritual dimensions of life to catch up
2:39:41to a 21st century Viewpoint um I think
2:39:44is so needed and I really see you as a
2:39:46Pioneer so as we're speaking about
2:39:47gratitude I just want to share some with
2:39:49say thank you so much for coming on the
2:39:50show and and sharing yourself in this
2:39:52way it's been so fulfilling for me I'm
2:39:55just as much of a joyful participant and
2:39:57listener to this conversation as I am uh
2:39:59you know stewarding it with you so uh
2:40:02just thank you so much and I'm really
2:40:03looking forward to how this conversation
2:40:05evolves nice well great to be here great
2:40:07to meet you and uh keep it up thank you
2:40:11so much and for everybody that's been
2:40:13tuning in I have found the waking up app
2:40:15extremely profound and and Powerful I
2:40:17spent hours and hours on walks listening
2:40:19to different theories and talks and they
2:40:22have amazing meditation so I'll leave a
2:40:24link in the description below where you
2:40:25can find that and check that out if you
2:40:26haven't already they have a free trial
2:40:28it's it's it's amazing highly highly
2:40:30recommend it everywhere you can find Sam
2:40:33uh will be linked in the description as
2:40:35well below and is there anything else
2:40:36you want to share before we wrap up uh I
2:40:39don't think so no you can find me in
2:40:41fewer and fewer places now it's just uh
2:40:43noticed that yeah it's really just um I
2:40:46guess samh harris.org and waking up.com
2:40:48those are the two points of contact so
2:40:50amazing thank you so much uh looking
2:40:53forward to maybe running it back one day
2:40:54and for everybody that's been tuning in
2:40:56to this episode of the no self podcast
2:40:59thank you for coming on this journey
2:41:00with us and until next time be well
2:41:03[Music]

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