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A Process for Finding & Achieving Your Unique Purpose | Robert Greene — Transcript

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0:00welcome to the huberman Lab podcast
0:02where we discuss science and
0:03science-based tools for everyday
0:05[Music]
0:08life I'm Andrew huberman and I'm a
0:10professor of neurobiology and
0:12Opthalmology at Stanford School of
0:14Medicine my guest today is Robert Green
0:17Robert Green is an author who has
0:18written more than five bestselling books
0:21including the 48 Laws of Power the laws
0:24of human nature and Mastery he did his
0:26bachelor's training at the University of
0:28California Berkeley and the University
0:30of Wisconsin at Madison Robert Green's
0:33books are both unique and important for
0:35several reasons not the least of which
0:37is that they explore the interaction
0:39between the psychology of self
0:41self-exploration and the psychology of
0:43human interaction all rooted in history
0:46and modern culture and at the same time
0:48in a way that pertains to everybody I
0:50first learned about Robert's work from
0:52reading the book Mastery which to my
0:54mind is a brilliant exploration and a
0:56practical tool for how to think about
0:58and pursue one's purpose purp whenever
1:00I'm asked for book suggestions I always
1:02include Mastery in my top three
1:04recommendations during today's
1:06discussion we cover a wide range of
1:07topics including how to find and pursue
1:10and Achieve one's purpose we talk about
1:13the selection of a life partner as well
1:15as romantic and other types of
1:16relationships we also discussed the
1:18topics of motivation and urgency and
1:20this concept of death ground which arose
1:23during our discussion of Robert's recent
1:25stroke Robert stroke rendered him
1:27certain limitations but also has allowed
1:30him to explore how to write how to
1:32exercise indeed how to interface with
1:35life in general in new ways that allow
1:37him to continue to expand his sense of
1:39purpose I'm certain that by the end of
1:41today's episode you will have gleaned
1:43tremendous amounts of new knowledge that
1:45will allow you to navigate forward along
1:48the path to your purpose perhaps find
1:49your purpose if you feel you haven't
1:51done that yet as well as to greatly
1:53enhance your relationship with yourself
1:55with others and indeed to the world
1:57around you before we begin I'd like to
1:59emphas ize that this podcast is separate
2:01from my teaching and research roles at
2:02Stanford it is however part of my desire
2:05and effort to bring zero cost to
2:07Consumer information about science and
2:08science related tools to the general
2:10public in keeping with that theme I'd
2:12like to thank the sponsors of today's
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4:20episode is also brought To Us by waking
4:22up waking up is a meditation app that
4:25includes hundreds of meditation programs
4:27mindfulness trainings yoga NRA sessions
4:29and nsdr non-sleep deep rest protocols I
4:32started using the waking up app a few
4:34years ago because even though I've been
4:36doing regular meditation since my teens
4:39and I started doing Yoga Nidra about a
4:41decade ago my dad mentioned to me that
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5:00useful because sometimes I only have a
5:02few minutes to meditate other times I
5:04have longer to meditate and indeed I
5:06love the fact that I can explore
5:07different types of meditation to bring
5:09about different levels of understanding
5:11about Consciousness but also to place my
5:13brain and body into lots of different
5:14kinds of States depending on which
5:16meditation I do I also love that the
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5:48again that's waking up.com huberman to
5:51access a free 30-day trial and now for
5:54my discussion with Robert Green Robert
5:57I'm so happy you're here I'm reallyy
5:59happy to be here Andrew thank you so
6:01much for inviting me a short
6:04story in 2015 I was teaching a course to
6:08undergraduates this was a big course 450
6:11students where was this this was when I
6:13was a professor at University of
6:14California San Diego I was about to move
6:17back to Stanford um but the course was
6:21entitled neural circuits in health and
6:22disease but there was a final lecture
6:25where I would do a lot of Q&A with the
6:27students about science about careers
6:30about career paths and what I found was
6:32that many of the students had questions
6:35about not just science but about how to
6:37learn and forage for information yeah
6:39and I recommended three books at the end
6:42of the course every year that I taught
6:44it I taught it for four years and one of
6:47the books was the book longitude which
6:49is a wonderful story about discovery of
6:51timekeeping devices at c um one book
6:55I'll leave as a mystery um not to be not
6:57to be mysterious but because it's not
6:59it's it's a science book I'll just tell
7:01you what it is it's um uh principles of
7:03Neuroscience so I thought that I don't
7:05know that one yeah it's a big it makes a
7:07better a door stop uh for most than than
7:09a book but it's it's a wonderful
7:11resource um if you want to learn about
7:13neuroscience and your book Mastery W and
7:16the reason I recommended Mastery is
7:17because these students were soon going
7:18to go into the great Jungle of yeah you
7:22know post uh undergraduate education and
7:25and for me I found Mastery to be an
7:27absolutely transformative book in that
7:30it taught me so much about how to learn
7:33from others how to expect certain types
7:36of um interactions when one kind of
7:39assigns themselves to a mentor um and
7:43vice versa and it talked about some
7:46things that we'll get into in more depth
7:47today but not the least of which is
7:49about identifying that um unique seed
7:52that exists within all of us that can
7:55guide our best decisions in terms of
7:57finding our purpose and it and so I will
8:00usually end with a great debt of
8:01gratitude and I'll probably do that
8:03again at the end but I want to start
8:06with a great debt of gratitude uh
8:07Mastery transformed my entire life and
8:10and in many ways this podcast probably
8:12wouldn't exist were it not for Mastery
8:16because um it really embedded in me this
8:19idea that we all have uh a deeper
8:22purpose and it explains how to go about
8:24finding that purpose so I tell you that
8:27and I also will use that as a segue for
8:30um asking you now since I'm sure
8:32people's ears are picked up to this you
8:34know how do you find your purpose um
8:37could you share with us what what it is
8:39to find one's purpose and how early life
8:42events perhaps can cue us to what that
8:45purpose is for each of us well thank you
8:48for that that marvelous introduction I'm
8:51almost blushing that's that's fantastic
8:52story um well you know being a human
8:56being is not easy as opposed to an
8:58animal because we're born and nobody
9:00gives us like a direction our parents
9:02might be a little bit our college
9:04teachers Etc mentors but generally we're
9:07on our own and it's a very very
9:10difficult process you wake up in the
9:12morning and you don't really know what
9:13you're what you can do you could choose
9:1612 different paths it can be very
9:17confusing and very overwhelming when you
9:20find that sense of purpose when you find
9:22what I call your life's task everything
9:24has a direction everything has a purpose
9:27your energy is concentrated it's it's
9:29not like you're just going down a single
9:31narrow pathway it's not like life
9:33becomes boring and it's just about
9:35discipline and solving problems it's
9:37actually the most exciting thing that
9:38can ever happen to you because you never
9:40have that lost feeling you wake up in
9:42the morning you go yeah this is what I
9:44need to accomplish people come at you
9:46with all kinds of distractions and
9:48boring and irritating things you're able
9:51to cut it out it's just the most
9:52marvelous piece of internal radar that
9:55you can have so I genuinely wish that
9:57everybody can find that kind of internal
10:00radar and so it's not easy and I
10:04understand that there's no like instant
10:06formula because we're all about instant
10:08formulas it's difficult and I want you
10:10to know that so it's not like Robert can
10:12give me the answer in three minutes no I
10:14can't but there's a process involved
10:17it's not it's not you know a mystery you
10:20can follow a very singular process and
10:23the idea is you're talking about
10:25childhood the way I like to frame it is
10:28when you were were born you are a
10:31phenomenon you are unique your DNA has
10:34never occurred in the history of the
10:36universe going back billions of years it
10:38will never occur in the future your life
10:41experience with your parents and
10:43everything that you experienc in your
10:44early years going on up is unique it's
10:47yours you're are one of a kind right so
10:51that is your source of power to waste
10:53that is just the worst thing you can do
10:55in your life and what what the power is
10:58is find finding that uniqueness what
11:01makes you you and how you can M that and
11:04how you can go deep into it and use that
11:06to create a career path right and so I
11:10tell people when you're a child when
11:11you're four or five or even younger you
11:15have what the great psychologist maslo
11:17called impulse voices there Little
11:20voices in your head that say I love this
11:23I hate that I like this food I don't
11:26like when Mommy moves this way I like
11:28when Daddy comes from here here you're
11:30very queued into who you are and what
11:31you like and what you don't like and
11:33these voices kind of direct you in
11:35certain ways
11:37right and when you're very young they
11:39direct you towards intellectual mental
11:42Pursuits as well and there's a book I
11:44recommend for everybody uh it's Howard
11:47Gardner's five frames of mind it's
11:49helped me immensely the idea is he talks
11:53about five forms of
11:55intelligence our problem is we think of
11:57intelligence as mostly intellectual but
12:00there are many forms of intelligence
12:02there's the intelligence that has to do
12:03with words there's abstract intelligence
12:06that has to do with patterns and
12:07Mathematics there's kinetic intelligence
12:09it has to do with the body there's
12:11social intelligence he has five of them
12:14and the idea is your brain naturally
12:18veers towards one of them it can Veer
12:20towards two of them that happens but
12:21generally one of them kind of dominates
12:24right and it's like a grain in your
12:26brain that's going in a certain
12:28direction you want to go with that grain
12:31and because that's where your power will
12:32lie so when you're young if you go back
12:36and think about when you were four or
12:37five you you can maybe get a picture of
12:39some kind of direction or voice inside
12:42of you that was impelling you towards
12:44this I know for me it was
12:48words from I can remember when I was six
12:50years old I was just obsessed with words
12:52just the letters in Words almost like in
12:55almost slightly schizophrenic way I
12:57would spell words backwards I would take
12:59them apart I would do anagrams I love
13:01paland drums right so I had a thing
13:04about words and language it's very
13:06Primal some people you know Albert
13:09Einstein when he was four years old his
13:11father gave him a birthday gift of a
13:13compass and he was just mesmerized by
13:16this Compass the idea that there are
13:18invisible forces out there in the cosmos
13:21moving this needle and he's obsessed
13:23with the idea of invisible forces Steve
13:26Jobs when he was like seven or eight or
13:28maybe younger in Berling game California
13:30his father they passed by a store with
13:33de technological devices in the window
13:36and he was just hypnotized by the design
13:38of those devices and the glass tubes and
13:40everything so he wanted to go in that
13:42direction you know Tiger Woods saw his
13:45father hitting golf balls in the garage
13:48and he was just like screaming with joy
13:49he had to he had to do that right you
13:52know I can give you a million different
13:53examples of this of course these are
13:55people who are famous obviously we can
13:58go back and find that it's easier but
14:01what happens to you and please cut me
14:03off if I'm going on too long no please
14:05continue please what happens to you is
14:08you're seven now you're getting older
14:10and you're starting to not hear that
14:12voice anymore you're hearing the voice
14:14of your teachers telling you you're not
14:16good at this field you need to get
14:17better at math you know you shouldn't be
14:20interested in these sports or anything
14:21you should be going this dire your
14:23parents are starting to tell you this is
14:25the career they want for or the
14:26direction they want you to go in right
14:29you start hearing that more than your
14:30own voice and as you get older it gets
14:33worse and worse and worse then when
14:35you're a teenager it's all about what
14:37other people are doing your peers what's
14:39cool what's not cool you know and that
14:42kind of is more so all of these noise
14:45enters your brain and you can't hear
14:47that anymore you don't know who you are
14:50and so you go to
14:51college you kind of maybe choose a a
14:55major that seems practical that your
14:57parents want you to go in into maybe you
15:00kind of wander around you're not sure
15:02and then you enter the work world
15:04without that inner radar that I'm
15:05talking about and you brother you're
15:07lost right where should I go well I need
15:11to make money right and so you make a
15:13choice based on the need to make a lot
15:15of money some not everyone but some
15:17people do that and I understand that
15:20need we all need to make a living but
15:23that can set you off on a very bad path
15:25because you're not connected emotionally
15:28the thing is when you figure out that
15:30Primal inclination that grain that's
15:32inside of you then you have the the
15:36energy to to do to be disciplined to go
15:39through boring tasks to learn you learn
15:41at a faster rate because you're
15:43emotionally engaged when you're
15:45emotionally engaged in a subject the
15:48brain learns twice three times four
15:50times as fast as when you're not I
15:53always give the example in college I
15:55studied foreign languages which was kind
15:57of a passion of mine
15:59for three or four years I studied French
16:02and then I went to Paris and I couldn't
16:05speak a word it was it was useless
16:07because it didn't teach me anything
16:09practical right I was totally confused
16:11and then but I was in Paris and I and I
16:13loved it and I wanted to live there
16:15right and I had a girlfriend and I
16:17needed to speak French to her and I can
16:19tell you in one month I learned more
16:21than those four years of University
16:23because I wanted to because I was
16:25engaged my emotions were there it was
16:27like I had to survive survive to learn
16:29French whereas so most of us we don't
16:32have a need really to learn this subject
16:35We're Half we're paying half attention
16:37but when you find that thing that really
16:39connects to you you're paying deep
16:41attention your emotions are engaged
16:43you're learning at a much faster rate
16:46okay and so the thing is how do you find
16:49that when you're older when you're 21 I
16:52I I give people a lot of help and it's
16:54usually not so difficult we can go
16:56through that process it gets harder when
16:58you're 30 and you've been wandering
17:00around but it's not impossible I didn't
17:03really start find my exact path until I
17:06was 38 39 to be honest so there's hope
17:10when you get 40 and you get 50 gets more
17:12and more difficult right and it's very
17:14sad if you wasted that seed of
17:16uniqueness that I'm talking about and I
17:19tell people there are ways of going back
17:21and we go through a process like
17:22archaeology we have to dig and dig and
17:24dig and find those bones from your
17:26childhood that indicated what you were
17:28meant to do
17:29but when you find your life's task
17:31everything opens up it doesn't mean you
17:33figured out okay I've got to aim for
17:35this particular job when I'm 28 that's
17:37not how it works it gives you a sense of
17:40direction you can try different things
17:42you can experiment you can have fun when
17:44you're in your 20s you're going to learn
17:45you're going to learn skills but it
17:47gives you an overall framework instead
17:49of whoa all this confusion this chaos
17:51social media the internet I could go
17:53here here here you're lost at C it gives
17:56you a very important sense of direction
17:58a compass
18:00as you described this I I have this
18:02image of um you know you mentioned
18:04animals um that presumably don't have a
18:08lot of flexibility in terms of the
18:09niches they can exist in but the way I
18:11imagine this process is that as a human
18:14we're plopped into a environment and
18:17here I'm using analogy where um we don't
18:20really know if we are an aquatic animal
18:23a terrestrial animal or a or an Aven
18:26right or an amphibian or an amphibian
18:27for that matter um and to make the wrong
18:30choice right to be an amphibian who's
18:32trying to fly although I'm sure they're
18:34out there um in the animal kingdom uh it
18:38it's not just a waste of time it's
18:40probably deadly um and not to overd
18:43dramatize the the failure of finding
18:45one's purpose but I see it that way
18:47whereas um perhaps we could just say
18:50that the process of finding one's
18:52purpose is to to realize like ah you
18:54know um I'm an amphibian I can go in and
18:57out of water whereas a bunch of other
18:59creatures around me stop at the water's
19:00edge right right and this is really cool
19:03and a bunch of these other things like
19:05these flying things that they can't
19:06actually even go in the water some of
19:07them might you know be on the surface or
19:09dive into it but they they can't do what
19:10I can do so the process of
19:12self-discovery it sounds like it's about
19:14um restricting one's choices to a a a
19:18sort of wedge within the full landscape
19:20of of options and um you know for me I
19:23can certainly recall after reading
19:25Mastery it helped me recall some early
19:28seed emotions that I experienced as a
19:31very distinct sensation in my body can
19:33you describe that yeah um without making
19:36it too um specific to my my unique taste
19:40you know as a kid I loved um flora and
19:42fauna I loved learning about biology
19:44sure yeah no surprise there um but
19:46animals and how they move in particular
19:48and fish and going to a a proper
19:51aquarium store for the first time for me
19:53and going snorkeling for the first time
19:54was like Wow and even as I describe it
19:57it's almost like my body fls I feel it
19:59in my left arm of all things and it
20:01feels like there's something to do about
20:03it it's not just that I'm in observation
20:05of things that Delight me right it's
20:07like there's something there's an
20:08activation State created within me like
20:10I got to do something with this and
20:12typically it's tell everybody about it
20:14until they won't listen anymore um but
20:17oftentimes it's to also draw those
20:18things to think about them and I just
20:20Delight in them it's a constant source
20:22of delight and so seeds such as those
20:24and there are a few other things in that
20:25in that landscape of Flora and Fauna and
20:29learning about animals and biology
20:32including the human animal and then
20:34organizing information feels so
20:36satisfying to me it's like a drug that
20:38um and so it just felt feels like this
20:41you know Eternal spring of of life right
20:45and so for me that's what it was and to
20:47and in 2015 when I was teaching that
20:49course the course I loved but I was
20:51feeling a little bit astray in my
20:52scientific career and then I read
20:54Mastery and I realized yes I love
20:57running a laboratory I love teaching but
20:59there's something else for me and it has
21:01to do not with a podcast I didn't even
21:03know what a podcast I probably I knew
21:05what a podcast was I was listening to
21:06podcast at that time but um but I wasn't
21:09on social media I had no thoughts of
21:11having a podcast but what I wanted was
21:13that feeling in
21:15its total number of forms that's the
21:17goal get that feeling in as many forms
21:19as possible right is that is that about
21:21that's a that's that's absolutely
21:23perfect because the connection to what
21:26I'm talking about it's not an
21:28intellectual thing it's it's visceral
21:30it's emotional it's physical right and
21:33you feel it in your body and when you're
21:34doing it it's like it's at your level
21:37it's like you're swimming with the
21:38current you feel it things are easy
21:41everything clicks together there's a
21:42delight not everything is going to be
21:45delightful there's going to be tedium
21:46involved there's going to be moments of
21:48boredom but you're able to withstand the
21:50moments of boredom because you feel the
21:53Deep overall connection so yes that's
21:56precisely what I'm talking about I mean
21:58it's for me it's a little bit similar
22:01thing is I said about words but the
22:03other thing that I was obsessed with
22:05when I was a kid was early human
22:08ancestors don't ask me why I just was so
22:12obsessed with our ancestors millions of
22:14years ago and how it's possible to be
22:16living here in the 60s or 70s with cars
22:19and everything but to come to where we
22:21are now and I wrote a a short story when
22:26I was eight years old about a vulture It
22:29Was Written from the point of view of a
22:31vulture watching the first humans kind
22:33of emerge on the planet I'm sure it was
22:35absolutely awful Dreadful but the weird
22:38thing is I'm writing a new book and all
22:41I'm doing in that book is going into ear
22:42into early humans and I feel like a kid
22:45again I'm so excited I'm so happy so I
22:47can very much relate to your
22:49story you mentioned these five different
22:51forms of intelligence or frame frames of
22:54Mind as you refer to them um and I'm
22:58certainly aware that you know I lean
23:00towards a more intellectual interests
23:03although as you pointed out the the
23:05excitement the Delight is visceral yeah
23:07and the actions are actions they're of
23:08the body ultimately right um one has to
23:11draw speak write books Etc um to to
23:14transmute that excitement into something
23:17real for people that are not as
23:21intellectually tuned but maybe are
23:22kinesthetically tuned for instance um I
23:26can only wonder what that's like uh I'm
23:28not completely uncoordinated but I don't
23:29think I have a kinesthetic Attunement uh
23:32or frame of mind but I for instance um
23:35had a podcast listener mention that they
23:40think in feels that they literally
23:44experience thought as a Ser as sort of a
23:46patchwork of bodily Sensations right and
23:50that thought for them is not of the
23:52stuff from the neck up but only from the
23:55neck down which to me was really
23:57intriguing and so I only raise this
24:00because um there have to be a as you
24:02point out there's an infinite number of
24:03different sort of um orientations based
24:06on our unique DNA and experience but
24:09what do you
24:10think explains why these particular
24:13seeds or uh as you point out like the
24:15the the direction that the grain runs in
24:17the brain I mean it's it's partially
24:19going to be nature it's going to be DNA
24:21um but we we're talking about this as if
24:24there's some exciting or a inspiring or
24:27delightful
24:29thing that captures us can it be the
24:31other way too can it be um you know one
24:35has a bad experience as a child in an
24:37intellectual environment and then
24:39decides you know I'm I'm going in the D
24:42things of the body feel good things of
24:44the mind of intellect feels bad and does
24:47it matter whether or not we are drawn to
24:49our Purpose By recognizing what we love
24:52or what we hate um or are both useful oh
24:56they're both very very useful um you
24:59know a lot of intelligence is is not is
25:03non-verbal we think in terms of images
25:06we're we're very much infected by the
25:08emotions of other people so I know for
25:11instance uh my mother is very very
25:14interested in history she's obsessed
25:15with history and I probably absorbed her
25:18interest in history I don't think
25:20there's a genetic a gene for that
25:22interest you know so you're you're going
25:24to absorb things from your parents as
25:26well so it's not all just genetic but
25:29yeah what you hate will pay a big will
25:32have a big thing but the problem with
25:33doing that is if you go into a direction
25:37in you're in you're in elementary school
25:39Etc and they force you to learn math and
25:41you hate it what it tends to do is it
25:44turns you off from learning in general
25:46you think I don't want to I don't want
25:48to I don't want to be disciplined I
25:50don't want to go through anything
25:51because it's painful doesn't lead
25:52anywhere it's not me frustration it
25:55turns you off from learning in general
25:57so it's really really important for a
25:59child to have the love experience as
26:02early as possible so that they can know
26:04what they hate and why they hate it
26:06right and then they can Rebel and they
26:08can go into that field as opposed to I
26:11hate learning I hate discipline I hate
26:13studying I hate trying things over and
26:14over again if you're kinesthetically
26:17oriented and you know a part of me I
26:19understand that because I love sports is
26:22you have to you have to practice it's
26:24going to take a lot of it's not you're
26:25not going to instantly be good at
26:27something right and that's going to
26:29require a love of it right but if your
26:32math experience I hate learning
26:35you're not you're it's going to transfer
26:36to sports you're going to hate
26:38discipline in general so it's very
26:40important for parents to let that child
26:42have at least glimmers of that love
26:45moment I know for me when I um finished
26:49college and I entered the work world I
26:52had to get a job I got worked in
26:53journalism I hated it I hated working
26:57for other people I hated hated office
26:59politics I hated all the egos I hated
27:01the smarminess I hated the lack of
27:04quality it was all just about you know
27:06making money and getting things out
27:08there and then I worked in Hollywood I
27:10hated Hollywood I hated working in
27:12Hollywood that formed me very much maybe
27:15go in the direction that I went in but
27:17only from the basis of I knew that I
27:19wanted to be a writer so you know that's
27:22very important that it's not just hate
27:24it can form you but there also has to be
27:27that posit of deep emotional love of
27:29something that also is grounded in you
27:32in some way what you just said really
27:34highlights the fact that energy and
27:37motivation can come from either either
27:39pressure you know desire for something
27:42or desire to get away from something and
27:45um earlier when you were talking about
27:48um how we are so much more engaged and
27:51driven toward things that stir us
27:54emotionally and and actually we know
27:57based on the neuroscience you know too
27:59I'm sure that um only by the release of
28:02certain neurochemicals in the brain and
28:03body would our brain have any reason to
28:05change right if you don't feel agitation
28:08and you can do everything that you're
28:09trying to do of course your brain
28:10wouldn't change like why would it right
28:12that agitation is a is a signature of
28:14the neurochemicals that are saying hey
28:16something's different now right right
28:18you might need to do something different
28:19including rewire yourself right um and
28:22that can come from positive or negative
28:25experiences I'm obsessed with this idea
28:27of energy I mean we all want to have
28:28more energy and focus and normally we
28:30hear about the concept of energy in the
28:32context of caloric energy like what
28:34should we eat and when and how much and
28:36we need to get sleep but what you're
28:38really referring to is neural energy
28:41like the the engagement of ourselves
28:44that's you know uh sitting there ready
28:46to be engaged but it requires the right
28:49experiential macronutrients right the
28:51experiential micronutrients as opposed
28:54to of course we need good nutrition but
28:56that's not sufficient it's necessary but
28:57not sufficient so uh would you say that
29:00when um we are let let's say since a
29:03good number of our listeners are in
29:04adulthood um you know from our 20s on
29:08that the things that excite us as adults
29:11that really generate some feeling of
29:13Readiness or or grab our attention um
29:17are still informative toward guiding our
29:19decisions about best life and life
29:22purpose well um what do you what exactly
29:25do you mean by that I mean like because
29:28there are things that excite you in in a
29:31kind of a quick way like you know where
29:33you have to relieve some tension and you
29:36there's entertainment and there's things
29:37that kind of give you pretty immediate
29:39gratification and there's the larger P
29:42picture of something that will give you
29:44fulfillment over years to come so you
29:47can feel that when you're older and you
29:49can pay attention to it but a lot of the
29:51time is we we're paying too much
29:53attention to the immediate pleasures of
29:55life to what gives us instant
29:57gratification and that's what we're
29:58grabbing for so this is a much more kind
30:01of deeper process that involves that
30:04digging that I was saying it it's it's
30:06deeper than just kind of I like this I
30:09don't like that you know kind of thing
30:11it's it's more it's more something macro
30:14than than just just that and so when
30:17you're in your 20s or in your 30s or
30:20your 40s you want to be paying attention
30:22to yourself and the problem with people
30:24in the world today is you're not paying
30:26attention to yourself not inside your
30:28own head you don't hear those voices you
30:31don't hear what you love what you like
30:32anymore because as I said there's so
30:34many of these other distractions going
30:37on and so you're always like attuned to
30:40what other people like right because
30:42you're in social media this is what
30:44people are following this is what
30:45they're interested in as opposed to
30:47disengaging backing off from that and
30:50and looking at yourself and going
30:52through the process of that's not me
30:55actually I don't really like that you
30:57know and so what you're talking about is
30:59I think very profound is levels of
31:02frustration or anxiety are definite
31:05signals that you must pay attention to
31:08that they're telling you this isn't a
31:10good direction for you this is a waste
31:11of time for you and in general I tell
31:14people selfawareness being able to hear
31:17those voices to understand that your
31:19frustration is telling you something and
31:22sometimes you you just act on it without
31:25understanding it but understanding why
31:27why you're frustrated why you don't like
31:29your career why you're not happy about
31:31where you're going is the key to
31:33everything it will open up it will
31:35actually be able even in your 30s to
31:37return you to that childhood inclination
31:40but if you can't listen to where those
31:42emotions come from then they're useless
31:45they're not teaching you
31:46anything as we all know quality
31:48nutrition influences of course our
31:50physical health but also our mental
31:52health and our cognitive functioning our
31:54memory our ability to learn new things
31:56and to focus and we know that one of the
31:58most important features of highquality
32:00nutrition is making sure that we get
32:01enough vitamins and minerals from high
32:03quality unprocessed or minimally
32:05processed sources as well as enough
32:07probiotics and prebiotics and fiber to
32:10support basically all the cellular
32:12functions in our body including the gut
32:14microbiome now I like most everybody try
32:17to get optimal nutrition from Whole
32:19Foods ideally mostly from minimally
32:22processed or nonprocessed Foods however
32:24one of the challenges that I and so many
32:26other people face is getting enough
32:28servings of high quality fruits and
32:29vegetables per day as well as fiber and
32:31probiotics that often accompany those
32:33fruits and vegetables that's why way
32:35back in 2012 long before I ever had a
32:37podcast I started drinking ag1 and so
32:40I'm delighted that ag1 is sponsoring the
32:42huberman Lab podcast the reason I
32:44started taking ag1 and the reason I
32:46still drink ag1 once or twice a day is
32:49that it provides all of my foundational
32:51nutritional needs that is it provides
32:53insurance that I get the proper amounts
32:55of those vitamins minerals probiotics
32:57and F fiber to ensure optimal mental
33:00health physical health and performance
33:02if you'd like to try ag1 you can go to
33:04drink a1.com huberman to claim a special
33:08offer they're giving away five free
33:09travel packs plus a year supply of
33:11vitamin D3 K2 again that's drink a1.com
33:15huberman to claim that special offer so
33:19it sounds like one of the goals is to
33:22engage in what I'll just call for the
33:25moment unadulterated self-referencing
33:28you know unadulterated uh in the the all
33:30senses of the word because um as a child
33:35as you point out um at stages of life
33:37that are before puberty they're
33:39literally prex um which I think is
33:42important right because um puberty to me
33:45as a neurobiologist who started off as a
33:48developmental
33:49neurobiologist I can tell you that
33:51puberty is the most profound
33:52transformation that the brain undergoes
33:55for in the entire lifespan there's just
33:57absolutely no question about it
33:58everything is different after puberty
34:00because of all of the new relational
34:03dynamics that become apparent and our
34:05potential involvement in them yeah it's
34:07just it's you know it's not talked about
34:09enough how dramatically puberty changes
34:12the brain sure I mean we are different
34:14people before and after puberty hormones
34:15that are suddenly raging the hormones
34:17are there and it's not just changes in
34:20how we view the world but changes in how
34:22the World Views us and not just through
34:24the lens of sexuality but also
34:28expectation of what we are capable of
34:30what we are responsible for or not
34:31responsible for our learning capacity I
34:34mean puberty is like this you know it's
34:37also the most rapid stage of Aging in
34:39our entire lifespan those kids that go
34:41home for summer and then come back like
34:43shaving you know I was sort of a late I
34:46wasn't a late bloomer but I had a long
34:47protracted puberty but I remember those
34:49kids I'm sure we we all remember those
34:50kids um everything changes and so I
34:53think prior to puberty these seeds as
34:55you've described them of of delight or
34:58of resistance to things think they are
35:01unadulterated they're not contaminated
35:04by the voices and expectations of others
35:06and so I can see the challenge of
35:07reaching back to those as an adult um I
35:10wonder if this relates to um something
35:13that I've heard you talk about before
35:16although perhaps not as much as some of
35:17the other topics you've discussed
35:19publicly which is um the real versus the
35:22false Sublime oh um could you perhaps
35:26just Define for us what Sublime really
35:30is what a Sublime experience is and and
35:32the distinction between real and false
35:34Sublime experiences because I I feel
35:36like this relates to finding that seed
35:39right it's it's about finding authentic
35:41seeds of within us as opposed to when
35:44emotions can be distracting and
35:45misleading wow I never thought I never
35:48made that connection and it's the book
35:49that I'm writing right now so thank you
35:51for that I have to think about that I'm
35:53actually I'm writing a book on the
35:56sublime and um I have several ways of
35:59kind of illustrating I generally like to
36:01use a metaphor and the metaphor is that
36:04being a human being being a social human
36:06being living in a particular culture
36:08means that you live inside of a circle
36:11and that Circle of that time are the
36:14conventions of thinking of ideas that
36:16are acceptable of behavior that is
36:18acceptable this is where you where you
36:20can go mentally where you can go
36:22physically you know all the codes and
36:25conventions so that's Circle for ancient
36:28Egypt and for 21st century America
36:31they're obviously very different but
36:33it's the same Circle it's the same
36:34limiting factor you're not supposed to
36:36go outside of it these are thoughts
36:39experiences Behavior you're not supposed
36:41to do the sublime is what lies just
36:45outside that Circle um the word sublime
36:48comes from on the threshold of it's like
36:52here's a door and the sublime is
36:55literally at the threshold of the door
36:57you're looking out into something else
36:59right and the quintessential Sublime
37:03experience is a near-death experience
37:05you're standing on the on the doorway
37:07the threshold of death itself right and
37:11so in my book I'm illustrating the
37:13different kinds of sublime experiences
37:15that you can have in relation to the
37:18cosmos in relation to thinking about
37:20being alive just being alive is the
37:22strangest sensation you can possibly
37:24have I have I know that very personally
37:27after my stroke I go into childhood
37:29chapter on childhood and how Sublime
37:31your own childhood was I go into animals
37:34relation to animals I go have a chapter
37:36about the brain chapter about love I'm
37:38working right now on a chapter about
37:40history okay but what I'm trying to say
37:43is the human brain is wired for these
37:46experiences is wired for transcendental
37:48experiences that take us out of the
37:50narrow little realm that we live in
37:53because we're aware of our death as the
37:55only animal truly conscious of it own
37:57mortality and it frightens the hell out
38:00of us and the idea that we can see
38:02something larger than than just the the
38:06the banal parts of our life is a doorway
38:08that open allows us to kind of transcend
38:11the moment to feel connected to
38:13something larger to feel connected to
38:15some power in the cosmos to Evolution
38:17itself right and so we're wired for that
38:21and I'm writing a chapter now about
38:2340,000 years ago at the moment where I
38:26think the sublime was born is a story
38:28that I'm trying to illustrate right now
38:31with our upper Paleolithic
38:33ancestors so it's deep inside of us we
38:35need it we have to have it in the 21st
38:38century we have very few avenues for it
38:41any real Avenues religion used to be the
38:44main kind of way of of accessing this
38:47and so because it's so deep we reach for
38:50false forms of the sublime that give us
38:53the sense that we're we're transcending
38:55but it's not at all because
38:58Sublime has to come from within it's an
39:01experience that you have that you're
39:03generating in your own mind in your own
39:05experience the false Sublime comes from
39:07outside it comes from drugs it comes
39:11from alcohol it comes from shopping it
39:14comes from online rage it comes from
39:17joining a cause and just getting out all
39:19your aggression and violence right it
39:22comes from causes it comes from
39:24addictions okay it gives you a sense it
39:27calms you down and makes you feel like
39:30there's something else going on in life
39:31besides your job that you're you're sick
39:33of but it's not real it's not lasting
39:36it's false it's an illusion it's not
39:37based on anything real it's not
39:39connecting to that deep part of human
39:42nature that's wired for these
39:44experiences so what happens is you have
39:47to have more and more and more and more
39:49of it you have to have you know more of
39:51this rush you need more of the drug you
39:53need more of the alcohol you need more
39:55of the sex you need more of the porn
39:56it's never going to satisfy you but the
39:59real Sublime you don't have that feeling
40:01it's like it's transformative once you
40:03feel it it lasts for you for the rest of
40:05your life it's what maslo again called a
40:08peak experience so that's the difference
40:10between the false and the real Sublime I
40:14haven't quite connected it to what you
40:16were saying but if I think about it I
40:17think you're on something very
40:18interesting I mean maybe the connection
40:20I was trying to draw was uh doesn't hold
40:23but yeah for me
40:25um those early experiences of seeing
40:28things that just delighted me in a way
40:30that felt like that not only is well the
40:34the the thought process was a long time
40:36ago when something like oh my goodness I
40:39can't believe this exists this is so
40:42cool this is the coolest thing and so
40:45clearly create an activation state
40:46within me but then there was also a
40:49thought and a feeling of again a lot of
40:52this is sort of pre preverb it's not
40:54truly preverbal I could speak at that
40:56age but it was
40:58um that's of me and I'm of it right
41:01there's a connection there and then it
41:03was there's something to do about this
41:05the activation State created in the body
41:07was you know I I need to learn more
41:09about this I need to tell people about
41:11this I need to think about this I need
41:13more examples of this and see whether or
41:15not they're all like this you know etc
41:17etc um so certainly it meets some of the
41:22criteria of a Sublime experience
41:24definitely and I knew again when I was
41:27in graduate school and again when I was
41:29this young Professor about to transition
41:31to tenure that I knew it was going going
41:32to do something different it was as if I
41:34was on the threshold of something but I
41:36didn't know what that next thing was but
41:38I could trust it because of that early
41:40experience of knowing that's the threat
41:43like like I'm an amphibian this is my
41:45environment and you're an amphibian too
41:48right and we're different amphibians but
41:49you know we're going to be amphibians
41:51together right and then and there's a
41:53permanence to it that it does seem to
41:54transcend time I'm obsessed with time
41:57perception so I have to be careful not
41:58to go off on a tangent about that but
42:00the human brain's ability to F slice or
42:02macro slice time is incredible and and
42:04it's been set of um not just addictions
42:07but also interactions with toxic people
42:11that they murder time that that humans
42:14have a I think it was young I I'll look
42:17it up but um one of the great
42:19psychologists said something to the
42:21extent that um addictive behaviors
42:25thought patterns substances are humans
42:28attempts to murder time so that they
42:31don't have to address their mortality
42:35yeah and that's always made a lot of
42:36sense to me yeah we say kill time is our
42:39expression kill time through passive
42:42engagement but also kill time through um
42:44trying to get overwhelmed or overtaken
42:46by an experience or a substance as
42:48opposed to when you're truly connected
42:51you have that sense of
42:53flow and 3 hours can pass by and you're
42:56not even aware Ware of it so time is a
42:58totally subjective experience it can be
43:01extremely slow and tedious and you feel
43:03very depressed or it can pass by but
43:07that passes by without you even noticing
43:09it and it's a wondrous experience you
43:11know when I'm deep in my writing I'm not
43:14aware of the time passing I'm so
43:16involved I'm so immersed it's a deeply
43:18deeply pleasurable experience of time it
43:21is Sublime and yeah so I agree with you
43:24I think your distinction is very
43:25interesting you I'm eager awaiting your
43:28your next book but we won't rush you
43:30well I I I'm I'm so immersed in it that
43:32I could I could talk for hours because I
43:34also have a chapter in there about what
43:36I call the
43:37dayon which is like that voice inside of
43:41you that speaks to you and I'm writing a
43:43whole chapter about how Sublime that is
43:45when you connect to that voice so you
43:47are spoton there is something very much
43:50connected to master in this book but
43:52it's the next chapter that I'm writing
43:54fantastic I can't wait I can't wait I'd
43:57like to shift slightly to a topic that
43:59you've written extensively about which
44:01is power um and not just power but also
44:06seduction which you've written
44:07extensively about and of course you've
44:10written about finding one's purpose so
44:12tell me if the framework that I've just
44:15given myself Liberty to create is an
44:17accurate one and if it's not I I'm
44:19hoping that um it's not in perhaps some
44:22interesting ways so to me you talk about
44:26and we will talk about power as as a
44:28resource it's it's something that um
44:32it's there as a resource it could be
44:33used or not used um and I think of
44:36Seduction as one form of exchange
44:38between an individuals so there's a verb
44:40associated with seduction power I'm
44:43thinking of more as a noun in this
44:44context you're the word guy um and then
44:48you know purpose is uh is really about
44:50finding like to what end or ends one is
44:52going to um devote power seduction and
44:55the other forces that allow human beings
44:58to interact with each other in the world
45:01um but power as a resource that can be
45:04expressed in different ways and accessed
45:06in different ways maybe we could just
45:08explore that a little bit because you
45:10know when we hear the word power I think
45:12a lot of people kind of brace themselves
45:14like here we go someone's going to try
45:16and have power over me this is about
45:18manipulation and so on and so forth but
45:22I learned pretty early on that every
45:26every career Endeavor there there are
45:28power dynamics there's Mentor mentee
45:30they teachers and their students and
45:31both have power um in inter in romantic
45:35relationship there's a power exchange
45:37there are yeses and their NOS there are
45:39Mayes there are um uh covert and overt
45:45contracts yeah I'll do this because I
45:47want to right you'll do this because you
45:49want to great sounds great overt
45:51contractor they're also covert contracts
45:53well I don't feel safe doing that so
45:54what I'll do is I'll take something on
45:57through from the interaction that you're
45:58not aware of so that I can sort of um
46:01ease my sense of danger and make give
46:04myself the illusion of feeling safe and
46:06all sorts of kind of complicated human
46:08dynamics that have to do with us having
46:09this forbrain thing that can do all of
46:11that gymnastics so maybe we could start
46:14very simply by just saying you know how
46:16would you define power in terms of its
46:20uh functional definition like in in in
46:22interpersonal relations and then why do
46:25you think power is so essential to all
46:29relationships that's really what I'd
46:30like to get to why is it so essential
46:33why couldn't it be something else well
46:36the way I Define Powers I try and take
46:38it away from that kind of negative
46:40context that most people have and that
46:41you that you brought up and I bring it
46:44to something very primitive and very
46:46Primal the way the human being is wired
46:49the feeling that we have no control over
46:52our environment and in the earliest
46:54period it was literally over our
46:56environment and wild animals and nature
46:58and and climate Etc but now the sense
47:01that you have no control over your
47:04career over your children over your
47:07parents is deeply deeply am miserating
47:10and it compels us to act in certain ways
47:13either attempts to find positive ways of
47:16power or doing what you call covert ways
47:18of getting power you know passive
47:20aggressive traditionally passive
47:22aggressive means so it's deeply wired in
47:25us to want a degree of control over the
47:28immediate environment and immediate
47:30events we can never have complete
47:33control and the idea of having complete
47:34control is nonsense and it would
47:36actually be very ugly because you want a
47:38degree of Letting Go and letting
47:40circumstances come to you etc
47:42etc so the sense of you you you want to
47:46feel like with other people and
47:49relationships that you can influence
47:51them that you can move them in a certain
47:53direction either to get you to love you
47:56and treat treat you better or either to
47:58stop annoying irritating behaviors or
48:01either to you know wake up and and find
48:03and and and do productive activity if
48:05it's your children Etc you want to have
48:08the ability to influence people to move
48:11them in a certain direction either in
48:13your interest or in their interest right
48:16and once you have that need and every
48:20single human being ever who's ever lived
48:22has that need and we often don't
48:25recognize it because we're in
48:26embarrassed by it we're embarrassed by
48:28our desire for power for our need to
48:30control every human being has it right
48:33and it's not easy because human beings
48:36are
48:37complicated they don't if you say do
48:40this and you're talking to your son
48:42he'll do the opposite or he'll do
48:43something else you can't just force
48:46people in a direction right by being
48:48overt and telling them this is what you
48:49need to do you create resentment you
48:51create an enemy they may they may say
48:54yes yes daddy yes husband I'll do what
48:56you say say but they're you they're
48:58they're going to resist you deep down
49:00inside right so people are tricky they
49:04wear masks they pretend to say one thing
49:06and they do another they have their egos
49:09and you inadvertently wound their egos
49:11or trip them in some way and they react
49:13in a way that you don't expect and so
49:16power is this kind of invisible realm
49:18that envelops Society where people are
49:22continually battling each other and
49:24struggling in it but no one is like
49:26talking about it no one's being overt
49:28about it no one's saying this is exactly
49:30what I'm trying to do and so when you
49:32enter the social world and the career
49:34world you're not expecting these battles
49:37you don't know no one's taught you no
49:38one's trained you your parents don't
49:40train you nobody trains you and you make
49:43mistakes and you realize how political
49:45people are if you're a Sharky character
49:47and there's a certain percentage of them
49:50you realize wow I can deceive people I
49:53can manipulate them I can get what I
49:54want I can pretend to love them and they
49:57they'll fall for me and I can do all
49:58this other stuff but for most of us the
50:0095% of us who aren't sharks and I'm I'm
50:03including myself in that category it's
50:07it's it's very very disturbing to
50:09suddenly enter that world and see all of
50:11that invisible power games on that's no
50:13one's given you any advice for helped
50:15you and so take it out of the realm of
50:19it's just about trying to dominate the
50:22world and manipulate and exploit and and
50:25abuse it's something inside of you you
50:28have this need and your suppression of
50:30it will only make you come out in
50:33passive ways and you won't be able to
50:35control certain things if you want to
50:39move people if you want them to follow
50:41your ideas if you want them to be more
50:45aligned with your politics or your ideas
50:48you have to be subtle you have to learn
50:50psychology you have to learn certain
50:53aspects of how to almost move people
50:55without them realizing against in
50:57certain directions which is like The Art
50:59of Seduction and if you're not
51:02interested in that if you're just going
51:03to tell people what you think of what
51:05you're going to do that means you're not
51:06interested in Practical action you're
51:08not interested in results you're just
51:09interested in venting your own
51:11frustrations or your own anger so
51:13learning the subtle little dynamics of
51:16power is extremely essential because
51:19we're a social animal it doesn't mean
51:21that you're going to get dirty that
51:23you're going to suddenly go out there
51:24and manipulate the hell out of people
51:26most of the 48 Laws of Power is about
51:29defense but how to defend yourself from
51:31the Sharks about there how to defend
51:33yourself from making classic mistakes
51:36like outshining the master like talking
51:38too much like arguing with people
51:40instead of demonstrating your ideas on
51:42and on and on it's not an ugly thing it
51:45actually makes you a better social
51:48individual so that's how I I like to
51:50frame it it's very interesting I I
51:53think as a young guy growing up it was
51:57so important to me um to know where I
51:59fit in with my friend group um and I
52:02didn't think of it so much as a
52:04hierarchy um nor when I was in my
52:07academic studies did I think of it as a
52:10hierarchy even though it was clearly was
52:12right um so much as it the goal was to
52:16figure out where was my unique slot that
52:20I could um do the most good for myself
52:24and others you know kind of finding my
52:26spot um I don't want to say on a shelf
52:27because that gives an image of something
52:29vertical but you know in the let's make
52:31it lateral a lateral arrangement of
52:33different people with different
52:34strengths different life purposes trying
52:36to figure them out you know where where
52:39should I be in order to express that and
52:41also feel connected to others and um and
52:44in order to do that I did have to I
52:47realize now based on your answer I did
52:50have to figure out um you know who's
52:52trying to have power over who's
52:54pretending that they don't want Power
52:56but is actually exerting power um you
53:00know these sorts of things and there's
53:03an incredible piece that comes from
53:04knowing that one is in the correct Place
53:07both profession interpersonally in
53:09relation to oneself but also in the
53:11context of one's peer peer group it's
53:14kind of yeah this is where I belong
53:16because trying to gain power when one is
53:18trying to move to a position that isn't
53:20right for them or in a way that isn't
53:21right for them just seems so
53:23energetically costly seems like a waste
53:26of a life frankly right right you know
53:28trying to gather resources simply to to
53:30have them to give the illusion of power
53:32but then being afraid of losing them
53:34just sounds like a recipe for for misery
53:36as you pointed out you know whereas
53:38figuring out where am I most powerful in
53:41the benevolent sense of the word that
53:43that that seems like a good a good
53:45Pursuit well it's connecting up to to
53:48Mastery again and finding your life's
53:50purpose you know I I I knew when I was
53:53young that I couldn't exert physical
53:55power because I was a skinny little runt
53:58and I was I wasn't bullied but people
54:00would kind of pick on me etc etc so I
54:04veered towards intellectual Pursuits
54:06where I could have power and in the end
54:09you know you might have been a jock and
54:10you might have done well in high school
54:12but haha Look at me now I'm not saying
54:14that it's a beautiful thing that that's
54:16but that's part of human nature the
54:17desire to actually you know prove
54:20yourself and find that Niche that you
54:22that you belong to so you don't have
54:24that kind of hum that sense of
54:27inferiority which Alfred Adler the
54:29psychologist describes very eloquently
54:32so a lot of it is kind of compensating
54:35when you're a child for things that are
54:37your weaknesses and finding what you're
54:39so good at that you do have that power
54:42and people can't bully you right and you
54:44you're you're like now a famous
54:46neuroscientist whereas they're like who
54:48knows what they're doing kind of thing
54:50so power definitely is connected in some
54:53way to that inner sense of what you were
54:55meant to do and you feel it with the
54:58with the ease and the connection that
54:59comes from it right so I can honestly
55:04say that my dislike of working for other
55:07people and office politics and egos I
55:10now have a of an existence where I don't
55:12have to deal with any of that and I'm so
55:14blessed and I wake up every morning and
55:16I pray to God thank God I I found this
55:19because it's it's the perfect lifestyle
55:21for me and you're are can be accurately
55:24described as an intellectual be Beast so
55:27it's um and which is like a compliment
55:30right um we hear the word beast and we
55:32think uh you know a Ferocious Beast
55:33trying to harm others but I'm happy
55:35being a beast yeah you know so I think
55:37finding where we can be a beast you know
55:39and and for some people that's painting
55:41or or yeah gardening or whatever it
55:43might be um I think is again ties back
55:46to the these issues of or this quest of
55:49for
55:50Mastery seduction is also a very loaded
55:53word right it's even more uglier than
55:55power
55:57because seduction right seduction kind
55:59of drips with uh the idea that somebody
56:03is
56:04tricking someone else into doing
56:06something that they otherwise would not
56:08want to do but seduction is both our
56:12propensity to do it and to have it done
56:14to us is hardwired into our nervous
56:17system and has a lot to do with the
56:19hypothalamus and a bunch of other areas
56:20that I won't Bor us with the
56:21nomenclature but um seduction to me
56:26implies some sort of exchange I suppose
56:28we could seduce ourselves through denial
56:30or convincing ourselves that of of
56:32something but more often than not when
56:35we talk about seduction we're talking
56:36about an interaction between two or more
56:38people so um what are some of the core
56:41principles of Seduction and and if you
56:44care to play um Anthropologist a bit um
56:48and a neuroscientist I I would invite
56:50that why do you think we have neural
56:53circuits in our brain that allow us to
56:55seduce and be
56:57seduced well um I don't know how if if
57:00I'm if I'm being kind of an armchair
57:03intellectual here but my my theory is
57:06some of it has to go back to social um
57:09events long in our prehistory which have
57:12to do with
57:13taboos and Society was initially kind of
57:17organized by a series of tabos right
57:21most notably the taboo on incest and
57:24what happened this is just not my theory
57:25it's the theory of the malanowski
57:28malanowski is I pronounce it um that the
57:31moment a taboo enters the human brain
57:34like you're not supposed to sleep with
57:36this woman the desire arises inside of
57:39you to actually sleep with that woman
57:41the the the sense of no the sense that
57:44this is prohibited stirs the desire
57:46stirs the contrary impulses in humans
57:49and we can be very um what's the word
57:53perverse creatures right so if you've
57:56ever tried to suppress a thought you
57:59realize that it keeps coming up keeps
58:01coming up you can't suppress it don't
58:03think of an elephant Andrew whatever you
58:05do don't think of an elephant you're
58:07thinking of it because you can't help it
58:09right the idea that you're not supposed
58:11to desire this person stirs that actual
58:14desire so I believe the sense of
58:17something being taboo and transgressive
58:19is the ultimate kind of origin of our
58:22desire for seduction but seduction in
58:26involves
58:27vulnerability it involves somebody gets
58:30inside somebody gets under our skin
58:33right and to do that we have to let them
58:35in so the person being seduced is in
58:38some ways to a degree complicit because
58:41if you just put up a wall and you said
58:44no I I'm not going to be seduced nothing
58:46will happen but you have a vulnerability
58:49you're letting that person into your
58:51psyche Into Your Inner Space the
58:54Paradigm for that Early Childhood so
58:59Freud talks a lot about this I don't
59:01know if people still believe in Freud
59:02anymore but I certainly do okay
59:04absolutely a genius of both Psychology
59:07and Physiology wrong about a lot of
59:09things did a lot of things he shouldn't
59:11have done I let's acknowledge that I
59:13think everyone would agree that sleeping
59:14with your patients and being a cocaine
59:16addict bad ideas but at the same time he
59:20had an absolute like near Supernatural
59:22levels of insight and Brilliance into
59:24human nature sleep with patience I
59:26believe he did um but if I just if I
59:29just threw that on him without him doing
59:31it then you know uh forgive me he
59:32certainly had emotional attachments to
59:34his patients that he shouldn't have had
59:37I don't know if he slept with them he
59:38very well might have but his idea was
59:42that the child is seduced by the parent
59:45you're in extremely vulnerable position
59:48right your life depends on them and
59:50they're seducing you with their energy
59:52you're letting them in right and that
59:55kind of creates a pattern pattern for
59:56the rest of your life and so for
1:00:00instance the feeling of being carried by
1:00:03your father and just being taken around
1:00:06physically is a form of Seduction
1:00:08because you don't know what he's going
1:00:10to do to you you're very excited you
1:00:13want that surprise right and to me it's
1:00:16related to the seduction of a story
1:00:18stories are very seducing to us we don't
1:00:21know where they're taking us we don't
1:00:22know what the next chapter is what's
1:00:24going to happen to this character or not
1:00:26the surprise lowers our resistance and
1:00:29opens our mind up to what's going to
1:00:32happen next is a form of Seduction fairy
1:00:35tales the stories you were reading as a
1:00:37child your interactions with your
1:00:39parents they're deeply deeply ingrained
1:00:41in you you cannot be seduced unless you
1:00:44are vulnerable right and so I like to
1:00:48switch it around and get out of the
1:00:50negative connotations being vulnerable
1:00:53is actually a positive trait
1:00:56I think a lot of people now in the world
1:00:58today because things are so harsh and
1:01:00invasive that people have become too
1:01:03invulnerable they don't want to let
1:01:05anything in right and this now infects
1:01:08their relationships with other people
1:01:10they don't want to be influenced they
1:01:12they want to be strong inside of
1:01:14themselves they're afraid of giving in
1:01:16to the other person of surrendering to
1:01:18their influence but it's actually a
1:01:21delightful feeling to surrender to the
1:01:23power of another person and then reverse
1:01:26that charge and have them surrender to
1:01:27your power so when I'm reading a writer
1:01:32and sometimes uh they completely seduce
1:01:35me like friederick nid is one of my
1:01:37favorite writers I let go of everything
1:01:40I let him enter my brain and I'm
1:01:42completely seduced I let him lead me
1:01:44along but then I encounter writers that
1:01:47I don't like at all I I'll mention one
1:01:50you know probably not a good thing but
1:01:52Steven Pinker I don't like Steven Pinker
1:01:55I find him really annoying okay um but I
1:01:59forc myself to try and find a way to be
1:02:01seduced by him to let him into my brain
1:02:03to see where he's coming from to open
1:02:05myself to the possibility that he could
1:02:08be correct so vulnerability letting
1:02:11people into your mental space is a form
1:02:13of intelligence it's a it's kind of an
1:02:15emotional and an intellectual
1:02:17intelligence and forgive me for
1:02:18interrupting but I think it also implies
1:02:20a level of confidence because empathy or
1:02:23allowing oneself to be vulnerable to the
1:02:25point where you're seduced by something
1:02:28um by
1:02:29definition if you're choosing to do it
1:02:32uh implies that you also have the
1:02:34confidence that you can get back to
1:02:36yourself afterward right that you're not
1:02:37going to get lost in the circumstances
1:02:40you're not going to be hijacked to the
1:02:41point of no return right or in some way
1:02:43that's detrimental to you so it it's um
1:02:47it I'm sounding really nerdy here it's a
1:02:49it's cinear with with confidence in many
1:02:52ways sure like take my mind and take it
1:02:55where you will because I know I can come
1:02:57back at any time right right and the
1:02:59same thing in a physical seduction in a
1:03:01romantic sense right you're opening
1:03:03yourself up to the charm to the energy
1:03:05of the other person but if they start
1:03:08displaying dark energy and you see that
1:03:11they're abusive or something is wrong
1:03:13you have the ability to retreat ah well
1:03:15there it gets tricky because very tricky
1:03:17well because the attachment systems
1:03:18which are also rooted in childhood um
1:03:22oftentimes can overwhelm one's ability
1:03:24to recover oneself like to I mean so I
1:03:26mean how many if I had a dollar for
1:03:28every time someone in that I knew in my
1:03:30life saying like you know I know they're
1:03:32bad for me but I just can't like we just
1:03:34can't seem to disengage like that you
1:03:37hear about that all the time I mean you
1:03:38see court cases about this that are
1:03:40public and you know you just go why
1:03:41didn't they just walk away from one
1:03:42another well because once those
1:03:44attachment systems are locked in it
1:03:46almost becomes in a and here
1:03:48metaphorically speaking like a parent
1:03:50child relationship like you can't
1:03:51suddenly decide your parents weren't
1:03:52your parents simply because you know
1:03:54better now right you are forever
1:03:56stricken with the reality that they were
1:03:59and they had an influence and I think
1:04:00that that attachment system is um is a
1:04:04is a force that tugs pretty hard yeah
1:04:06and um a lot of women have written to me
1:04:10since the Art of Seduction sort of
1:04:12saying that their boyfriend or husband
1:04:14was applying some of these tactics on
1:04:17them and it was very painful and they
1:04:19were kind of a little bit angry at me
1:04:21for for it but then they kind of
1:04:23realized that they it wasn't they didn't
1:04:25learn it really from my book it was
1:04:26already kind of wired in them but that
1:04:29reading about these tactics and these
1:04:31strategies actually helped them to
1:04:33recognize what their husband or
1:04:35boyfriend was doing to them the
1:04:37manipulation and the games that were
1:04:38being played do men write to you and
1:04:40talk about the seductive adornments that
1:04:42women have used to to um bring them into
1:04:45relationship as well or are you
1:04:47typically hearing from women I mostly
1:04:49hear from women complaining about men
1:04:51and and and how they've abused them and
1:04:53how they used I see some of these
1:04:56some of the strategies I I don't deny
1:04:58have a slightly nefarious Edge to them
1:05:01because I didn't want to write a book
1:05:03about Seduction That doesn't have that
1:05:04taboo element because I say seduction
1:05:06involves the taboo and I didn't want to
1:05:09I didn't want to censor myself but
1:05:11female toale seduction clearly also
1:05:13exists less of I acknowledge that it's
1:05:16um less often is it physically abusive
1:05:19um but right I mean from an early age
1:05:22both boys and girls men and women are
1:05:24coached by Society on the sorts of uh
1:05:28seductive tactics and and adornments
1:05:31right I mean everything from makeup
1:05:32perfume hairstyles cars watches jewelry
1:05:35um expression power displays of any kind
1:05:38um I mean that stuff the world's filled
1:05:40with that stuff yeah but men are
1:05:41generally kind of happy when a woman
1:05:43seduces them right they're unless
1:05:45they're after their money or something
1:05:47like that which happens but generally
1:05:49the sense you know I talk about this in
1:05:52in the first chapter about Sirens which
1:05:54I say is the quintessence essential
1:05:56archetype of the female
1:05:57seductress the the kind of half human
1:06:00half bird creature on a rock singing so
1:06:03beautifully that you have to jump in the
1:06:04water and then they kill you and so the
1:06:06idea is that men want to let go because
1:06:10men have to be so in control so powerful
1:06:13they have to project this image they
1:06:15have a secret desire to let go and be
1:06:17almost dominated by a very powerful
1:06:19woman a lot of men have that and I talk
1:06:22about some of the most powerful men in
1:06:24in history jul jius Caesar Mark Anthony
1:06:28um Joe dagio who all these men very
1:06:32masculine men who fallen for very
1:06:34feminine siren-like women and been
1:06:37completely dominated by them and they
1:06:39actually kind of enjoy the process
1:06:41because it's like a sense of I can let
1:06:43go I can enter this totally s sensual
1:06:46physical world and it it's extremely
1:06:49pleasing it's like another realm outside
1:06:52of my kind of cold masculine world you
1:06:55know so I don't really get men
1:06:57complaining too much about women who've
1:06:59seduced them honestly it's usually the
1:07:01other way
1:07:02around I'd like to take a quick break
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1:08:03tracker.com huberman I've heard before
1:08:06um and I promise this is not an original
1:08:08idea that I'm pretending to have heard
1:08:10elsewhere that my friend asked me to ask
1:08:12sort of question that in all sexual
1:08:15exchanges there's a power exchange
1:08:17definitely um maybe you could elaborate
1:08:19on that um because as you were
1:08:21describing some of the seductive power
1:08:23dynamics that exist uh a phrase that
1:08:25I've heard before uh came to mind um
1:08:27that at first made me chuckle but then
1:08:29made me think um quite deeply about this
1:08:31issue of the relationship between sexual
1:08:33and power dynamics which is this notion
1:08:35of topping from the bottom you know if
1:08:37one is giving someone else the
1:08:40impression that they are more powerful
1:08:43by virtue of the word giving they
1:08:44actually hold some power right power is
1:08:47can be given or taken but um often times
1:08:51uh seductive exchanges and sexual
1:08:53exchanges and romantic exchanges in
1:08:56particular are about both people
1:09:01uh buying into a ute a temporary
1:09:05illusion let's pretend that you're in
1:09:07charge when actually I'm in charge okay
1:09:10but I know that you think that you're in
1:09:12charge okay let's just pretend none of
1:09:14that exists and just do X right and I
1:09:16think this is another example of covert
1:09:19contracts and it's one that actually can
1:09:21potentially create a lot of problems
1:09:23post Hawk right um but I think the
1:09:27relationship between sex romance and
1:09:30power is an important area to explore in
1:09:32the context of this well I wrote The Art
1:09:35of Seduction with the idea that it was
1:09:37an art invented by women it was invented
1:09:40by women who had no power essentially
1:09:44socially politically in any sense of the
1:09:46word in in in domestically right and but
1:09:50the one power that they could that they
1:09:51could wield over a man was through sex
1:09:54some physical attraction and so they
1:09:57develop this art of kind of luring a man
1:09:59into their world through various
1:10:01theatrical effects Cleopatra being kind
1:10:05of the archetype of this and then luring
1:10:09the the powerful man into this world he
1:10:12has the illusion that he's the one
1:10:14pursuing her but in fact she is the one
1:10:17controlling the dynamic so often times
1:10:20the person who appears to be the weaker
1:10:23one in the relationship who's not not
1:10:25doing the pursuing is actually inviting
1:10:28the pursuing is actually leading the
1:10:30other person on so there's a lot of kind
1:10:32of appearance games going on and you can
1:10:35never really figure out who exactly is
1:10:37in control of the dynamic because one
1:10:40person is
1:10:41like allowing the other person to lead
1:10:44them on but the fact that you're
1:10:46allowing them is a degree of power is a
1:10:49degree of control right so it's very
1:10:51hard to figure out and sex and power and
1:10:55romantic relationships are very much
1:10:57intertwined in US physically emotionally
1:11:01neurologically you can't avoid it right
1:11:04and so I think it's kind of dishonest to
1:11:06say that that none of that exists that
1:11:09it's like that there's some egalitarian
1:11:12Paradise out of there when it it's
1:11:14really not wired in us for that kind of
1:11:17relationship there's a recent scientific
1:11:20publication SL factoid that I want to
1:11:23share with you in this context because
1:11:24I'd like your thoughts on it uh David
1:11:26Anderson who's a phenomenal
1:11:28neurobiologist he's been a guest on this
1:11:30podcast before he's a professor at
1:11:32Caltech studies um basically the
1:11:34functions of the hypothalamus so okay
1:11:36things like uh aggression mating and and
1:11:39things of that sort um and does it so it
1:11:42in with great detail he's a virtuoso of
1:11:44the hypothalamus and he published a
1:11:47paper two years ago showing that indeed
1:11:51there are neural circuits in the brain
1:11:53of animals and presum presumably in
1:11:56humans as well that control sexual
1:11:57mounting Behavior but that there is
1:12:00actually a separate circuit for
1:12:03purely nonsexual mounting and physical
1:12:06power over that's expressed in animals
1:12:09and anyone that's ever owned a dog and
1:12:10gone to the dog park we'll see same-sex
1:12:13mounting between dogs or mounting
1:12:16between dogs that has apparently um no
1:12:19sexual end point yeah and in exploring
1:12:23this literature and some talking to dve
1:12:25about it it's very clear that there are
1:12:26neural circuits um that have everything
1:12:29to do with essentially one animal of a
1:12:31species getting on top of the other
1:12:33animal usually from behind often times
1:12:36scruffing or biting the back of the neck
1:12:38and saying I control you it's a it's
1:12:40often done in a playful context
1:12:42especially between animals not always
1:12:44aggressive but there's a certain element
1:12:45of aggressive to it but it essentially
1:12:47says I decide whether or not you are
1:12:50mobile or not for this moment and that
1:12:52it and this is very important I want to
1:12:54emphasize this this is a circuit that is
1:12:56entirely separate from all of the
1:12:58reflexes associated with sexual behavior
1:13:00in males and females I find this to be
1:13:03fascinating um and because we hear about
1:13:05power over right and we hear about power
1:13:08and we think about physical power over
1:13:10but the idea that something as primitive
1:13:12as mounting just like something as
1:13:14primitive as biting or as
1:13:17striking has its own unique set of
1:13:19circuits in the brain I think
1:13:22substantiates every everything that you
1:13:24put in uh
1:13:25in your books about power and maybe even
1:13:27seduction as well so as I just kind of
1:13:30toss that out there for consideration I
1:13:32I I wonder um if you have any
1:13:34Reflections on it if not um feel free to
1:13:36just say I don't but of course but to me
1:13:40this was a really important Discovery
1:13:41because I think everyone looks at
1:13:42mounting behavior and says oh that has
1:13:45to be sexual and sometimes it's oh I see
1:13:48what you mean but but it's not that
1:13:50there's a there seem to be a host of
1:13:51neural circuits in the brain that are
1:13:53are really about finding who's on top
1:13:57literally that has nothing to do with
1:14:00sex yeah I'm sure that's true I've never
1:14:02I've never I've never um read anything
1:14:04about that but I can say that um I wrote
1:14:08a chapter in in my new book about love
1:14:12and that's a different thing than than
1:14:14seduction and I was trying to come up
1:14:16with an idea of love that does have an
1:14:19element of equality that doesn't have
1:14:22this power Dynamic going on in it of
1:14:25that and um you know kind of like the
1:14:27antithesis of my Art of Seduction where
1:14:29I'm almost contradicting myself and I
1:14:32was going into the into the biology of
1:14:36it and even into the physics of it so
1:14:39there is a famous uh French biologist
1:14:41whose Name Escapes me I'm sorry I can't
1:14:43remember from the 20s and 30s um and he
1:14:48was studying
1:14:49parium and he found he was studying them
1:14:51you know they there in these ponds Etc
1:14:54and he said that there was these moments
1:14:56where these single celled organisms were
1:14:59suddenly coupling they were all joining
1:15:01together just one to one and they were
1:15:04absorbing the membrane of one inside the
1:15:06other and then they would like go then
1:15:08once one couple did that all the parami
1:15:11started joining up together then they
1:15:12would sink to the bottom of the
1:15:15pond and parium don't reproduce through
1:15:18sex they reproduce through dividing
1:15:21themselves right self-
1:15:23reproduction and so he was saying that
1:15:26the desire to couple to to to connect to
1:15:31someone so deeply where you absorb one
1:15:32is absorbed in the other is biologically
1:15:35wired into US goes back millions and
1:15:38millions and millions of years and it's
1:15:41a desire essentially a biological desire
1:15:44for love right and it's an energy that
1:15:48permeates all all the it's it's not just
1:15:51about power and hierarchies and that he
1:15:54was showing other creatures that had
1:15:55something similar going on and you know
1:15:59in physics we talk about
1:16:02entanglement and we also talk about um
1:16:06you know matter if matter isn't absor
1:16:08isn't um opposed by a lot of ktic energy
1:16:11it joins together I mean particles join
1:16:13together to form matter etc etc so
1:16:16there's something in the universe that's
1:16:17trying to connect things to each other
1:16:20so there's this this kind of energy that
1:16:22exists in the world where we have have a
1:16:25deep need to connect to
1:16:27somebody with outside of those power
1:16:30dynamics right where there's a degree of
1:16:32equality where we're drawn to each other
1:16:36and we let go of the ego games we let go
1:16:38of the playing we kind of surmount our
1:16:42own physiology our own
1:16:44hypothalamus and we engage in this I
1:16:47call it love Sublime and it involves the
1:16:50physical part the sexual part is the
1:16:52trigger for it because when you have sex
1:16:55with someone your body is suddenly
1:16:57permeable to their energy in a way that
1:17:00you cannot control it releases all kinds
1:17:02of of chemicals in the brain that are
1:17:04very powerful and often times that sense
1:17:08is too powerful and you react and and
1:17:11you're afraid of it and you pull back
1:17:13but if you don't react and you go
1:17:15further then the mind also becomes
1:17:17permeable to the other person and their
1:17:20energy and their desire and so then it
1:17:24kind of creates a SP spiring effect
1:17:25where the physical and the mental
1:17:27connection reaches the state that I call
1:17:29love Sublime now it's an ideal it
1:17:32doesn't really exists that much out
1:17:34there in the world today but there are
1:17:36stories in history that illustrate it
1:17:38and I believe that is a biological
1:17:41necessity for us to feel a deep deep
1:17:44sense of connection we normally ascribe
1:17:46that to religion to God Etc but I
1:17:50maintain the essence of love the model
1:17:53for for love is between to human beings
1:17:56straight or homosexual doesn't matter
1:17:59and that feeling of surmounting our own
1:18:03neurology our own system and and
1:18:05entering this zone is deeply deeply
1:18:08satisfying we all want it and it has to
1:18:11involve letting go of the power dynamics
1:18:14letting and everything being equal it's
1:18:17not that the other person is exactly
1:18:19like you you recognize their difference
1:18:22but but as far as being worthy of
1:18:24attention
1:18:25being worthy and
1:18:26respected you leave all that other stuff
1:18:29outside so there is a Zone that's
1:18:31possible that's outside this power
1:18:33dyamic that we're talking about I'm
1:18:36excited that you're writing about this
1:18:37uh so this is for your next book yeah
1:18:40I'm very excited I couldn't help but
1:18:43think of some of the parallels between
1:18:44what you describe and what we're
1:18:46observing nowadays in the landscape of
1:18:48politics and social dynamics where
1:18:51clearly um there is no setting aside of
1:18:55egos people feel both sides feel
1:18:57attacked everyone in between feels
1:18:59confused like why do I have to pick a
1:19:01side um and there seems to be no hint of
1:19:05a future where people are setting down
1:19:08their swords it which means if we were
1:19:10to go with your earlier definition which
1:19:12I like a lot that um nobody feels safe
1:19:15enough to be
1:19:17vulnerable enough to um to allow the
1:19:21union of of people to occur which is
1:19:24just a way a way of rewarding you know a
1:19:27bunch of other things um and not nearly
1:19:29as eloquently as as you described it but
1:19:32if setting aside of power dynamics and
1:19:34making oneself vulnerable is is the key
1:19:36to accessing love in the Romantic
1:19:39context surely but also in the um
1:19:41societal context I mean what are the
1:19:44channels for that I mean I suppose there
1:19:46is the argument not mine that everyone
1:19:48should just take a boatload of
1:19:49psychedelics and see the
1:19:50interconnectedness of things but that
1:19:52seems like an unrealistic route I I just
1:19:54don't see that being you know um you
1:19:57know 12th grade graduation um curriculum
1:20:01um nor do I think it would be healthy I
1:20:03to be clear I think that you we'd end up
1:20:05with a lot of expression of of problems
1:20:07there um but short of a magic substance
1:20:10that could increase feelings of uh
1:20:12connectedness among everyone
1:20:14simultaneously um how are you going to
1:20:16save Humanity Robert well um CU I'm I'm
1:20:20concerned about young people in
1:20:21particular with hookup culture with
1:20:23pornography Etc Etc it's kind of
1:20:26rewiring the human brain and we're
1:20:28losing what I was just describing and I
1:20:31see a particularly a lot of young people
1:20:33and I don't blame them because they've
1:20:34grown up in a world that's very chaotic
1:20:37and very hostile could could I say I
1:20:39think it's um and not to be nitpicky
1:20:41here but I I love what you just said I
1:20:43think in my mind it's hi things like
1:20:45that are hijacking the hardwiring of the
1:20:48brain okay um and I'm just again forgive
1:20:51me my the audience is probably going
1:20:53can't really rewire brain like that well
1:20:55I think we can expand and rewire Upon
1:20:57Our hard wirring but so much of what you
1:20:59you talk about in your books is about
1:21:01finding one's Essence but then also what
1:21:04I love about your book so much among
1:21:05many other things is that it's about
1:21:07that dance between the hard wirring and
1:21:09and the possible of through effort so
1:21:11anyway forgive me for for being it's
1:21:14very accurate um so yeah what how do you
1:21:17get us out of this well you're putting a
1:21:19big burden on me I am but I think you're
1:21:21up to it you know um well I try to do it
1:21:23in this chapter because I wanted to
1:21:26seduce the reader into the idea that
1:21:29this is something extremely pleasurable
1:21:32and extremely healthy and the feeling of
1:21:35being vulnerable is a very positive
1:21:38attribute that will infect not just your
1:21:41romantic relationships but will infect
1:21:43you mentally so creative people are
1:21:47extremely vulnerable they're extremely
1:21:49vulnerable to ideas they're extremely
1:21:51vulnerable to the environment and
1:21:54closing yourself off into your own ego
1:21:57into yourself so the chapter is called
1:21:59Escape the Prison of the ego and you're
1:22:01you're kind of trapped inside of
1:22:03yourself and your own thoughts and your
1:22:05own desires and it's like a prison it's
1:22:07enclosing you and you want to escape
1:22:09somehow and you escape through drugs you
1:22:11escape through porn but it doesn't lead
1:22:13to actually escaping you want to be able
1:22:15to let go of the self and get out of
1:22:17this this prison that you're in right
1:22:20and so it's a desire that that we all
1:22:23have and so I wanted to frame it as this
1:22:26incredibly positive Dynamic that you can
1:22:29engage in and the ability to be
1:22:31vulnerable to other people to open
1:22:34yourself up and to say that yeah they
1:22:38might hurt me but I'm strong enough to
1:22:40take it and if they hurt me I'll learn
1:22:42from it and I'll rebound and I know
1:22:44that's a bit naive on my part but I want
1:22:47you to at least have that feeling
1:22:48because a lot of young people write to
1:22:50me and they say I I can't fall in love
1:22:53anymore I can't don't like that feeling
1:22:55I it makes the loss of control is too
1:22:57much you know and and a lot of that
1:23:00their behavior patterns are in creating
1:23:02this sense of control which you can have
1:23:05when you're locked inside of yourself uh
1:23:07hence over indulgence in pornography
1:23:11yeah and masturbation
1:23:13Etc as a way to avoid the you know the
1:23:17understandable fear about inter
1:23:18relational Dynamics yeah yeah so you
1:23:22know when you're young you're you're
1:23:23idealistic at least a lot of young
1:23:25people are and you have these dreams and
1:23:28these hopes and to let go of this
1:23:30possibility which is deeply pleasurable
1:23:33and deeply therapeutic to the human
1:23:36animal as a social animal it's like the
1:23:38highest form of interaction that we can
1:23:41have so my strategy in that chapter was
1:23:44to paint such a wonderful portrayal of
1:23:47the pleasures that are awaiting You by
1:23:50letting go of your defenses of letting
1:23:53go of all of your natural or resistance
1:23:55factors and opening yourself up to other
1:23:58people is is a key to not just a
1:24:02romantic relationship but to Career
1:24:04Success to mental energy to creativity
1:24:08to being open in general right and
1:24:11so I don't think I could have a a wide
1:24:16you know a huge impact but we'll see
1:24:17when the when the book comes out but I'm
1:24:20advocating that sense of opening
1:24:22yourself up to the universe to the
1:24:24Cosmos itself as an energy that
1:24:27permeates the world and so that you
1:24:31don't want to the feeling of being
1:24:33closed inside of your ego inside of your
1:24:35yourself I want to make it so you feel
1:24:38the pain of that because you don't
1:24:41really feel the pain of it you feel like
1:24:43it's comfortable for you but I want to
1:24:45make it clear to you that it's not
1:24:47comfortable it's deeply deeply painful
1:24:50and it's disconnecting you from some of
1:24:52the best experiences you can have in
1:24:54life
1:24:54so I have that strategy the only other
1:24:57hope I have is in the human Spirit
1:25:00itself so a lot of this is being caused
1:25:02by social media I believe right um and
1:25:08uh and the instant and the the kind of
1:25:10immediate gratification we can get in so
1:25:12many ways and my hope is that young
1:25:16people get fed up and get dis disgusted
1:25:20with all this disconnection and
1:25:22alienation in their life and that they
1:25:24hunger from actually something more
1:25:26communal more interactive more real as
1:25:29opposed to Virtual and so that the human
1:25:32Spirit can't be completely squashed by
1:25:35technology Etc so I have that hope
1:25:39because we've gone through these Cycles
1:25:40before in history where people have
1:25:43become very invulnerable and very locked
1:25:46and closed and suddenly there's an
1:25:47explosion a creative explosion like in
1:25:50the 1960s like in the 1920s like in 18th
1:25:54century Europe with the Casanova and the
1:25:56where seduction reached its kind of
1:25:58apigy Etc so it has kind of swung back
1:26:01and forth between these moments where
1:26:03humans get incredibly closed and bitter
1:26:05and partisan and everything's conflict
1:26:08and everyone's divisive Etc and suddenly
1:26:10goes in the opposite
1:26:13direction I I have hope in that
1:26:15possibility and I structured my chapter
1:26:18to perhaps sweep that a little bit along
1:26:21that tie and see if I can have any
1:26:23effect well I I think what you just
1:26:25described in conversations like it and
1:26:27that stem from it are likely to have a
1:26:30tremendous effect I think it's exactly
1:26:31what's needed now and um certainly I'll
1:26:35be uh to amplify that message I I agree
1:26:38with everything you said and not just
1:26:39because you're sitting here as a guest
1:26:41uh on this podcast but because um it's
1:26:44clear to me that while power dynamics
1:26:46and seduction are um wired into our
1:26:49human relations since the beginning of
1:26:51time that we have reached a a a very
1:26:54challenging period in our history um
1:26:57it's somewhat of a relief to me to know
1:26:59that it's happened before but in a very
1:27:01different context uh we hear a lot about
1:27:03The Swinging back and forth of the
1:27:05pendulum uh someone in fact uh Peter AA
1:27:09online Physician's brother actually said
1:27:11I um so we'll credit him he said no it's
1:27:13not a it's not a pendulum that swings
1:27:15back and forth unfortunately now it's
1:27:16become a wrecking ball so it's swinging
1:27:18back and forth and doing damage as it as
1:27:20it reaches its um you know its extremes
1:27:23and I think that
1:27:24um I also look forward to a time where
1:27:27people
1:27:29um acknowledge that the injustices
1:27:32around them and and that have been done
1:27:33to them and others and um but somehow
1:27:35are able to transcend that and the word
1:27:37that I'd like to pick up on there is the
1:27:40word justice um it was pointed out to me
1:27:43uh by someone I respect very much that
1:27:45you know having a sense of justice is a
1:27:47is a wonderful and important thing and
1:27:48as humans it's important to how we
1:27:50structure Society but I do think that a
1:27:52lot of the negative things that we see
1:27:53out there nowadays are have something to
1:27:55do with the availability of uh ready
1:27:58availability of pornography high density
1:28:02calorie food Etc a bunch of things like
1:28:04that but that one of the issues with
1:28:06social media because it does have its
1:28:08positive aspects but one of the negative
1:28:10issues in my mind is that it's a steady
1:28:12flow of um examples of Injustice so all
1:28:16day long you're just seeing things like
1:28:18that that piss you off and that piss
1:28:19other people off and for different
1:28:20reasons but but what was pointed out to
1:28:23me is that one of the key things about a
1:28:24sense of Injustice is to be able to
1:28:26determine whether or not there's
1:28:27anything that you should do about it and
1:28:30I think that everyone now feels a bit
1:28:32hijacked by all the injustices we see
1:28:35because we feel like well we're supposed
1:28:36to do something about it but it may be
1:28:40that while we can't let every Injustice
1:28:42pass that being bombarded all day long
1:28:45with things that upset us is hijacking
1:28:47our creativity it's distracting us from
1:28:50our deeper purpose it's preventing a
1:28:51sense of vulnerability that would lead
1:28:53to a sense of deep love
1:28:54and and on so I don't think it's just
1:28:56about the The Lure the tantalizing lures
1:28:59of of sex food and um and looking at you
1:29:02know bodies and hearing voices on social
1:29:04media I think there is some validity to
1:29:06that but that it's also that you know
1:29:08there's just ample opportunity to go
1:29:11down the gravitational pole forces of
1:29:14Injustice like H that's so frustrating
1:29:16why are they doing that I mean I catch
1:29:17myself doing that talking to co-workers
1:29:19when I walk in about did you see this
1:29:21thing this is crazy what's going on with
1:29:23the their crazy when you know as opposed
1:29:26to thinking about anything else in that
1:29:27moment and I try and yank myself out of
1:29:29that but I I think that um you're not
1:29:33going to do it alone but I think you
1:29:34will play a major role in saving us from
1:29:36this because people I do I think because
1:29:38people just need to see themselves
1:29:40through a different lens and realize
1:29:42this is distracting me from who I'm
1:29:43supposed to be well a lot of what what
1:29:46modern life should involve is the
1:29:48ability to ignore certain things so for
1:29:51instance I don't know if you know that
1:29:53app next door oh right I used to have it
1:29:57but then I'd see all the the packages
1:29:59being stolen off my neighbor's porches
1:30:00in Oakland and then I started enjoying
1:30:03living in Oakland less and I love the
1:30:05city of Oakland it's got its problems it
1:30:07definely has its problems but as an East
1:30:08Bay kid you know and went to school out
1:30:11there and you know like I have deep love
1:30:12for the East Bay and it it's always had
1:30:15those problems but when you see stuff
1:30:16being stolen on your phone in the middle
1:30:17of the night when you wake up it creates
1:30:20a sense that like they're out to get my
1:30:23stuff right terrible right and so uh I
1:30:26have it in my spam filter but I look at
1:30:28it and and every headline is people
1:30:31stealing somebody broke into somebody's
1:30:33house this P dog bit me this's this
1:30:36rapid dog going around there's this
1:30:38homeless person that's yelling and
1:30:39attacking people on and on and on I feel
1:30:42like I'm living in this neighborhood
1:30:43it's like Beirut or something in the
1:30:451980s I can't even walk out my door I
1:30:48just got I don't look at next door
1:30:50anymore I just ignore it I don't open it
1:30:52ever because because I know that that
1:30:55they're designed algorithmically to put
1:30:57that in front of you every single time
1:30:59so that you click on it because that's
1:31:01we respond to that kind of stuff
1:31:03naturally we can't help it so you have
1:31:05to be able to shut that stuff up and
1:31:08look at what you can actually control in
1:31:10your life so I have this visceral
1:31:14dislike of what's going on in Ukraine
1:31:17because I was in Ukraine recently and I
1:31:19feel I've identified very strongly with
1:31:21their struggle right and and it just I
1:31:25can't that outrage feeling it just every
1:31:27time I read an article about it it just
1:31:28drives me crazy so the only thing is I
1:31:31stop reading as much as I can I read
1:31:33things that are kind of rational and
1:31:35intelligent and I send them money and I
1:31:38you know I donate as much as I can and I
1:31:40help them practically but I don't allow
1:31:43myself to get that kind of outraged
1:31:45feeling all of the time
1:31:47so somebody has to write a book somebody
1:31:50has to instruct Us in what to ignore and
1:31:53what to act pay attention to so there
1:31:56are things that you can control
1:31:59injustices that are out there that you
1:32:01could control by voting by certain by
1:32:04amassing a movement by you know dealing
1:32:07with climate change not by trying to
1:32:10recycle every little thing in your house
1:32:12but actually doing something really much
1:32:15more macro in the world you know joining
1:32:17a cause there are things you can do and
1:32:19that's positive and that's a way of
1:32:21channeling that kind of dark energy in
1:32:24you for a positive purpose but it's
1:32:26totally disruptive and it totally
1:32:28distracts you and weakens you and drains
1:32:31you of energy to fall into those rabbit
1:32:33holes and let them and let yourself fall
1:32:35into them so you have to learn the art
1:32:38of what to ignore and what not to pay
1:32:40attention to and understand that you're
1:32:42wired to see those kind of red alert
1:32:46buttons on Facebook or on next door
1:32:48wherever they are and it it's just it's
1:32:51it's negative it's like a candy rush you
1:32:53have to avoid it and it's taking us away
1:32:56from our purpose which we each have I
1:32:58mean I think to me that's the the most
1:33:00um delerious aspect unless unless your
1:33:03purpose is to organize and be an
1:33:05activist people ask me I wrote a lot
1:33:07about in my human nature book about the
1:33:10shadow side of human nature right and we
1:33:13all have it we all have a dark side we
1:33:15all have hidden aggression we all have
1:33:17feelings of Envy we all have feelings of
1:33:19grandiosity we all have aggressive
1:33:21impulses how do you deal with it
1:33:24and I say the way to deal is to channel
1:33:26it into something positive and
1:33:28pro-social and that could be putting it
1:33:30in your artwork venting that anger and
1:33:32that outrage and something that people
1:33:34kind of can identify with or it can be
1:33:36in organizing something that could be
1:33:39your purpose in life and actually doing
1:33:41something positive so that's the only
1:33:44way that you could actually use that
1:33:45energy for some kind of actual life's
1:33:48task or purpose you've been discussing
1:33:51lately a bit on some of your channels
1:33:54about masculine and feminine um let's
1:33:59say
1:34:00roles um and crisis of the masculine
1:34:04feminine dance as well as the crisis of
1:34:07masculinity per se crisis of femininity
1:34:10per se um do you care to expand on that
1:34:14a bit I think um we could probably take
1:34:17three four hours to explore all this in
1:34:19full um but I was struck by some of the
1:34:23things that you said um because I agree
1:34:25completely that um just as we are not
1:34:27given a road map When we arrive in the
1:34:29world as to how to find our purpose I
1:34:31think there's also a very conflicted
1:34:33road map that's thrown in front of us
1:34:35and indeed conflicting multiple road
1:34:37maps about what it means to be masculine
1:34:41or feminine or some combination of both
1:34:43which of course everybody is some
1:34:45combination of both just to varying
1:34:47degrees well um yeah so men have a
1:34:50feminine side to them which if you try
1:34:52to repress will come out in other ways
1:34:56and women have a masculine side of them
1:34:58I think Yung described this very well
1:35:00with the anima and the animous which I
1:35:02think is is extremely
1:35:04real um it's very very confusing times
1:35:08for both men and for women right now we
1:35:11don't know the roles that there there're
1:35:14everything is just so fluid and it's
1:35:16very very difficult particularly if
1:35:18you're young so young women are getting
1:35:20this idea that everything should be
1:35:23equal and that women should have and of
1:35:26course it's right should have be paid
1:35:27the same and should have the same career
1:35:29opportunities there should be no
1:35:31Prejudice or harassment or anything but
1:35:33at the same time on social media it's
1:35:35all about looking perfect and looks are
1:35:38are incredibly important and if you're
1:35:40not hot you're in terrible trouble and a
1:35:42lot of young girls are extremely
1:35:44confused by this they're getting mixed
1:35:46signals right and boys are even in
1:35:49perhaps even worse circumstance where
1:35:52being masculine is SE is something
1:35:54negative so we don't have any ideals out
1:35:58there anymore of what what constitutes a
1:36:01good positive form of femininity and a
1:36:04good positive form of masculinity in
1:36:07fact we even think that there shouldn't
1:36:09be anything like that there's no such
1:36:10thing as being masculine or feminine
1:36:12whatever it's very very confusing and so
1:36:17you know I I think of of of masculine
1:36:20traits that I think are very positive
1:36:23that should be out there to kind of
1:36:24counteract the sort of Andrew Tate
1:36:28seduction that a lot of young men are
1:36:29falling for and it's a kind of an inner
1:36:33strength where you're sort of in control
1:36:36of your emotions you're not invulnerable
1:36:38etc etc but um you can take
1:36:42criticism you can take PE you know you
1:36:45can have moments of failure and you'll
1:36:47bounce back but you have a kind of res
1:36:49inner resilience and a kind of inner
1:36:52strength a kind of a quiet calm that I
1:36:55think used to be exemplified in movie
1:36:58icons like a Gary Cooper type thing
1:37:00right and that kind of sense of inner
1:37:03calmness where you're not hysterical
1:37:05you're not getting upset about
1:37:07everything that happens where you have a
1:37:09kind of an inner strength and a
1:37:11confidence and you can withstand kind of
1:37:13what Ryan holiday talks about a lot
1:37:15about with stoicism you can withstand
1:37:18all of the hardships in life but you
1:37:19have that Citadel within you is a very
1:37:22very powerful form of masculinity as
1:37:25opposed to it's all about sleeping with
1:37:28a lot of women having really fast cars
1:37:31you know being abusive and being a bully
1:37:33etc etc these are signs of weakness of
1:37:37insecurity and to be masculine should be
1:37:40a sense of security and inner confidence
1:37:42and Inner Strength right and that's what
1:37:45we should venerate in our culture and we
1:37:47should have icons like that okay um it
1:37:51doesn't mean that that there's no role
1:37:53for men who are not masculine or have
1:37:55more of the feminine virtues that's also
1:37:58there's definitely a role for that and
1:38:00you know we see a lot of that in all
1:38:02sorts of Arenas of life and then there
1:38:05should be a positive model for women you
1:38:08know where instead of their appearances
1:38:11being judged by their appearances and
1:38:13having to conform to the ideals of
1:38:15what's hot or not it's about being
1:38:19incredibly powerful and competent and
1:38:21and have expertise and being really
1:38:24successful in your career and and as
1:38:27opposed to being continually judged by
1:38:29your appearances which is very damaging
1:38:33so these are terrible times I mean I I
1:38:37feel fortunate that I grew up in a time
1:38:38where there were these kind of models
1:38:41for me to go by and I think of my father
1:38:45who who was a very quiet man and he was
1:38:49he was just a middle class salesman is
1:38:51basically what he was he just sold for
1:38:54all his whole life he sold chemical
1:38:56supplies for one company um but he was
1:38:59very dignified he treated people well he
1:39:02was very calm and very quiet but he also
1:39:04was very empathetic that was my role
1:39:07model for what I think is a good
1:39:09masculine energy and I think a lot of
1:39:12people just don't have that and they're
1:39:14very lost and so I don't know what the
1:39:16answer is that I can't really produce
1:39:18that out of thin air but I wish I could
1:39:21well certainly nowaday is there many
1:39:24more um let's say examples and options
1:39:27of masculine and feminine qualities out
1:39:31there for observation because of social
1:39:33media and because of the internet uh and
1:39:36as you pointed out before a key feature
1:39:39to becoming a functional human being
1:39:41especially nowadays is learning what to
1:39:42ignore I mean there's an interesting
1:39:45idea in the circles around a nutrition
1:39:48and health that you know never before in
1:39:50human history have human beings been
1:39:52able to access such a wide variety of
1:39:54foods that are differ from what their
1:39:56ancestors ate and I don't even mean
1:39:59ancient ancestors I mean if you grew up
1:40:02in the Bay Area as I did in the 1970s
1:40:05and 80s there were a few ethnic
1:40:08restaurants but we ate the same you know
1:40:1115 or 20 Foods over and over again right
1:40:13and then eventually that exploded into
1:40:16dozens of options and more and fusion
1:40:19foods and all sorts of things and so
1:40:20there is this idea in the nutrition
1:40:22communities that we are not hardwired to
1:40:25um think about and discern so many
1:40:27different food options that you know
1:40:28that's um and to taste so many distinct
1:40:31flavors whereas before people one
1:40:33portion of the planet or country ate
1:40:35generally one way in a given season if
1:40:37there's seasonality etc etc in a similar
1:40:39vein um we are now and children too are
1:40:44now um overwhelmed with a number of
1:40:46different options of how to express
1:40:48oneself both masculinity and femininity
1:40:50but generally speaking and so question
1:40:53is then how does one choose right how
1:40:55does one decide what's what's functional
1:40:58what works what's best what's me right
1:41:01everyone asking themselves who am I
1:41:03right I think all teenagers I find this
1:41:05fascinating ask themselves who am I
1:41:07adults don't tend to ask themselves that
1:41:08question but who am I I still ask myself
1:41:10question okay well that's good maybe I
1:41:12should ask myself that more often but um
1:41:15I think
1:41:17that we clearly have gone over a cliff
1:41:20with this stuff I don't think we're
1:41:21still at the point where we're kind of
1:41:23veering towards the edge of of confusion
1:41:26I think young people are really confused
1:41:28because the moment one assumes uh one
1:41:32clear and let's say balanced Mas set of
1:41:34masculine feminine attributes or maybe
1:41:36ver is a bit more masculine or a bit
1:41:37more feminine it's like um there are a
1:41:40million examples telling you that that's
1:41:41wrong I know and then sometimes has the
1:41:44tendency to Anchor to well no no I'm
1:41:46right because this is this is who I am
1:41:47and then all of a sudden you're you're
1:41:48in a larger battle so uh you know Gary
1:41:52Cooper's great love his movies um but
1:41:54we're like we now have a million
1:41:57variations on Gary Cooper um that don't
1:42:00look anything like the Gary Cooper you
1:42:02and I are talking about and a lot of
1:42:03people won't even know who we're talking
1:42:04about but I
1:42:05they I'm a dinosaur but perhaps it
1:42:07illustrates the point no i' not that
1:42:09you're a dinosaur but that um there is
1:42:11no single or even um set of masculine or
1:42:14feminine ideals so picking Role Models
1:42:19is something that I really truly
1:42:21internalize from your book mastery yeah
1:42:23you know there were a lot of lonely
1:42:24years for me and I won't get into the
1:42:26stories of just wondering like my what
1:42:28am I going to do you know I'm 13 my home
1:42:31was completely broken no semblance of
1:42:34the reality it was before you know who
1:42:36are the the males in my life I'm going
1:42:37to orient to and fortunately for me I
1:42:39assigned mentors to me whether or not
1:42:41they knew it or not that really helped
1:42:43me along and I changed them up as you
1:42:44recommend there wasn't one um I
1:42:47understood there was a breaking up
1:42:48process an integration process combining
1:42:50and threading together different things
1:42:52I think I truly believe that that's
1:42:54what's required then um it doesn't have
1:42:56to be 100% Gary Cooper it can be 10%
1:43:00Robert Green 10% someone else you know
1:43:045% this and creating a pie chart of
1:43:06sorts of you know who one wishes to be
1:43:08in a given context but that takes work
1:43:11it takes a bit of work and
1:43:12discernment but gosh that's powerful um
1:43:16and really credit goes to you because I
1:43:19you know you were a mentor of mine you
1:43:20didn't even realize it in the way that
1:43:22you forge and organiz information and
1:43:24there were others and but Mastery is
1:43:26where I learned to do that and this is
1:43:29not a podcast it's a sales pitch for
1:43:31Mastery but gosh it really taught me
1:43:34okay I have a graduate adviser she was
1:43:36wonderful and Brilliant but she didn't
1:43:39know how to explain a lot of things to
1:43:40me so I'd find someone else for that
1:43:42right and someone else for the other
1:43:43thing and someone else for the other
1:43:44thing and together create a patchwork of
1:43:46of really excellent mentors that made a
1:43:48lot of sense to me yeah yeah so I I
1:43:51think there's a a role for
1:43:53that process that you spell out in
1:43:55Mastery in the larger context of like
1:43:56could have become as a person and that
1:43:58includes masculine and feminine ideals
1:44:00yeah and and it's an ongoing process
1:44:02throughout your life so who you glommed
1:44:05on to when you were 14 or 15 will change
1:44:07when you're 19 I had a series of people
1:44:10like you're talking about my high school
1:44:13English teacher who had an enormous
1:44:15impact on me who taught me basically how
1:44:17to write I internalized his voice when I
1:44:20went to Berkeley I had a professor that
1:44:23who became my kind of surrogate father
1:44:25at Berkeley who I deeply admired for his
1:44:28level of scholarship so he became kind
1:44:30of an intellectual role model later in
1:44:33life when I finally wrote my first book
1:44:35I met a man y steers who was a book
1:44:37packager who understood the business Etc
1:44:40he kind of saved me he was sort of my
1:44:43mentor for the next phase in my life so
1:44:45on and on and on I found people but they
1:44:47have positive qualities qualities they
1:44:50admire they're not perfect everyone is
1:44:52flawed
1:44:53and so at some point maybe you see too
1:44:55many of the flaws you go on I need
1:44:57somebody new in my life but there's
1:44:59nothing wrong with that it's not like
1:45:01you're you're you're violating any codes
1:45:03or hurting them you move on to somebody
1:45:05else but the sense of finding people
1:45:08whose qualities you admire we don't
1:45:11learn from people just by following
1:45:14their ideas we pick up their energy
1:45:17their Spirit now you didn't necessarily
1:45:20pick up my energy or Spirit from Reading
1:45:22Master although Maybe you did I don't
1:45:23know but when you're interacting with
1:45:26that professor at Stanford or whatever
1:45:29it's not just verbally there's kind of a
1:45:31non-verbal communication going on you're
1:45:34internalizing some of the positive
1:45:35qualities that you saw in them and
1:45:38finding these series of mentors because
1:45:41I call it surrogate
1:45:43parents you can't choose your father and
1:45:46mother but you can choose these ideals
1:45:48for you can choose these mentors in your
1:45:51life you can kind of rewrite
1:45:53your family history and find that Father
1:45:55Figure You Never Had by glomming onto
1:45:58this person but it has to be the right
1:46:00fit it has to be someone that you
1:46:02connect to emotionally and
1:46:04intellectually and that has the positive
1:46:06qualities you wish for yourself well
1:46:08I'll embarrass you perhaps by saying
1:46:10that um since I was a freshman in
1:46:12college which is really when I turned my
1:46:15academic life around and really my life
1:46:16around I've maintained the same notebook
1:46:18with a list of names of people that I
1:46:21admire and who I'm um you know trying to
1:46:24emulate in some way not in every way
1:46:26certainly and the certain names have
1:46:27been crossed off but um most of them
1:46:29have survived and and certainly after
1:46:31reading Mastery your name made that list
1:46:34and um and I hope I'm not being crossed
1:46:36off at some point no not at all not not
1:46:38at all and through Reading Mastery there
1:46:40were there were additional names um you
1:46:43know I had the great the great
1:46:44Misfortune of having all three of my
1:46:46academic advisors die suicide cancer
1:46:48cancer which sounds tragic the joke in
1:46:50my field is you don't want me to work
1:46:52for you that's what that's what everyone
1:46:53says but by being essentially
1:46:55scientifically orphaned because there's
1:46:57a strong Mentor mentee relationship in
1:46:58science and progression through the
1:47:00career uh track it forced me to go out
1:47:03and find other people and also to learn
1:47:05how to quote unquote mother and father
1:47:07myself in the context of profession and
1:47:09I got a lot of help but um I I can't
1:47:12emphasize enough how valuable that
1:47:14practice is and so when one looks out on
1:47:15the landscape of social media options I
1:47:18mean these are literally just options of
1:47:20people to you know we call it following
1:47:23but um you know it probably should be
1:47:25called something else uh because
1:47:27following you know it fall short of
1:47:29emulating or attempting to emulate but I
1:47:31think that in the context of masculine
1:47:33and feminine ideals this is so critical
1:47:35but it's like the buffet of food is so
1:47:37enormous now right I mean you've got
1:47:39every cuisine on the table so speak
1:47:42we're we're not wired for that no and I
1:47:44know personally I I get very agitated
1:47:47and upset if I go to the market and I
1:47:50have to choose between 30 items and I
1:47:52have no idea what I want it makes me
1:47:54really cranky and upset whereas if I
1:47:56know okay I can have this food I can't
1:47:59have that I'm only looking for this okay
1:48:01it's easy it doesn't take two hours and
1:48:04waste my time too much choice is very
1:48:07detrimental to the human being I think
1:48:09and that's why going back to what I
1:48:10originally said when you have that sense
1:48:13of purpose about your life about what's
1:48:16important it does just infect your
1:48:18career but it infects everything you do
1:48:21so you know eating this food is going to
1:48:24drain me of my energy that I need to
1:48:27create this thing that means so much to
1:48:29me and energy and feeling my my brain
1:48:32active and alive is incredibly important
1:48:35value all right I'm not going to eat all
1:48:36that Sugar because it's bad for me right
1:48:39it means I'm not going to get outraged
1:48:41by these things on the internet because
1:48:42it's a waste of time I can't do anything
1:48:44about it it's just feeding on my you
1:48:47know on my I forget the part of the
1:48:49brain that's that's like the amydala or
1:48:51whatever right so no I don't want to go
1:48:54there right and on and on and on all
1:48:56these things in social media some of
1:48:58it's good some of it's interesting I can
1:49:00follow Andrew huberman's podcast and I
1:49:03enjoy that and I learn a lot from it but
1:49:05a lot of these podcasts are useless
1:49:07they're they're not helping me in any
1:49:08way so it gives you this kind of filter
1:49:12and this radar to cut out those hundred
1:49:16different choices that drive us
1:49:17absolutely crazy and I know maybe I'm
1:49:21partially I maybe maybe I'm a little bit
1:49:23I don't know I hate to say that maybe
1:49:24I'm partially on the Spectrum or
1:49:26something but I can't trans can't stand
1:49:29too many choices it completely drives me
1:49:31nuts so I always have to kind of funnel
1:49:34my energy into something to things that
1:49:36are productive and having a sense of
1:49:39your purpose whenever you discovered in
1:49:40your 20s hopefully gives you that
1:49:43ability to say these are the positive
1:49:45role models I want in my life these are
1:49:47the mentors and the thing about
1:49:50following people on social media is it's
1:49:52so easy it's just a click it doesn't
1:49:54mean anything a mentor relationship
1:49:57takes work it takes courage because you
1:50:00have to actually go up to somebody and
1:50:02physically ask for their help and a lot
1:50:05of people write to me say I'm afraid of
1:50:07asking this important powerful person to
1:50:10be their mentee right so it involves a
1:50:13sense of social courage where you have
1:50:14to literally engage with another human
1:50:17being who you admire and who you think
1:50:18is powerful so it's building your social
1:50:21skills Etc but it's a skill you develop
1:50:24you can't just follow someone you can't
1:50:26just watch their lectures you have to
1:50:28engage with them and you have to get
1:50:29over some of your fears and your
1:50:31anxieties in the process yeah and I
1:50:34might add to it uh I think everything
1:50:36you said is absolutely true and I think
1:50:38um engaging in the the various um tools
1:50:42that they recommend is immensely helpful
1:50:44like I think hear hearing about a book
1:50:46is great reading a book is even better
1:50:48um thinking about a book is even that
1:50:50you read is even better than that and
1:50:52and then uh writing down your own ideas
1:50:54and writing a book well that's that's
1:50:57the big win right and that's what the
1:50:58world I believe that's what the universe
1:51:01wants from us not necessarily to write a
1:51:03book but you know translate what I just
1:51:04said to any number of different
1:51:05Endeavors yeah you want to be able to
1:51:08think for yourself right so you're not
1:51:11just absorbing ideas from other people
1:51:14and kind of mimicking them and kind of
1:51:16just learning the exteriors of their
1:51:19ideas you want to kind of digest them
1:51:22and then have them slowly become your
1:51:24own ideas by interacting with them by
1:51:27Crea then putting them through your own
1:51:29lens so someday it's it's a book
1:51:33stirring in me is the art of thinking
1:51:36and how to use that kind of process and
1:51:39go deeper into it and I talked a lot
1:51:41about it in one of my podcasts which
1:51:43might be the seed of a book but it's
1:51:47it's the the difference between dead
1:51:49thinking and Alive thinking ideas can be
1:51:52either alive or they can be dead and an
1:51:55alive idea is something that enters your
1:51:58brain from an external Source a
1:52:00philosopher an article somebody you
1:52:02admire somebody you hate and then you
1:52:05absorb it and you think about it and you
1:52:08decide I'm going to turn it around into
1:52:10this and I'm going to make it alive and
1:52:12it's going to make it something that's
1:52:14part of me another part of an alive idea
1:52:17is um you have an idea that comes to you
1:52:20about a book or a project or something
1:52:23about the world and you go maybe that's
1:52:26not actually true maybe the opposite is
1:52:28true and you go through a process and
1:52:30you cycle through it on and on and you
1:52:32reflect on it and you refine this idea
1:52:34and maybe it turns into its opposite and
1:52:36through the process of reflecting and
1:52:39correcting and revising it you turn it
1:52:41into something living something alive
1:52:43within you right on and on and on and
1:52:47what prevents people from going through
1:52:48that process which would be the subject
1:52:50of my book is basically anxiety because
1:52:54I think how you handle anxiety is the
1:52:57most important kind of quality in life
1:52:59it'll determine whether you will be
1:53:01successful whether you will find your
1:53:03career path or whether you won't be able
1:53:06to I don't know if you can follow that
1:53:08idea at all but um anxiety is a signal
1:53:11to you that you don't understand
1:53:13something that that there's a problem
1:53:14out there that that you can't
1:53:16resolve and so what happens to most
1:53:20people if you're insecure is you glom
1:53:23onto something instant and easy to get
1:53:25rid of your feeling of anxiety I don't
1:53:28understand this problem oh it must be a
1:53:30must a must be the answer because this
1:53:32person said that right and so you don't
1:53:34develop the the ability to think you
1:53:36don't develop the ability to go to the
1:53:38next level but if you take that anxiety
1:53:41and you go all right maybe a is an
1:53:45answer and then you start going through
1:53:47a and then you go no maybe a isn't the
1:53:49answer maybe B is the answer you're able
1:53:51to surmount your anxiety and go past it
1:53:54further and further and further you
1:53:55don't rush for the first available
1:53:58answer that's out there right you're
1:54:00able to go through a process of refining
1:54:02things and so in your
1:54:04career if you're anxious for Success if
1:54:07you're anxious for money you're going to
1:54:09make the wrong choices but if you're
1:54:11able to deal with that anxiety and say
1:54:15maybe I'm I have to think more deeply
1:54:17about where I'm going I have to come up
1:54:18with other Alternatives then you're
1:54:20going to make a much better choice on
1:54:22and on and on so how if you're deal if
1:54:25you're a creative person it's very very
1:54:28challenging to have that blank piece of
1:54:30paper before you that book that you
1:54:32haven't written that film or whatever
1:54:34you're filled with a lot of anxiety and
1:54:36you have to deal with it and if you're
1:54:38able to turn into something creative and
1:54:40productive then great things will happen
1:54:42you'll create a masterpiece so the
1:54:45ability to deal with anxiety and to not
1:54:47give into the most instant gratification
1:54:49that you can get is to me a marker of
1:54:52somebody who will be creative and will
1:54:54invent something as opposed to people
1:54:55who just recycle old and dead
1:54:58ideas Amen to that I uh was once told
1:55:03that you know anxiety makes children of
1:55:05us all and not in the positive sense of
1:55:08being childlike you know it it regresses
1:55:11us to a mode where we feel a complete
1:55:13lack of control and I completely agree
1:55:16that being able to manage anxiety and
1:55:18and work dance with it since we can't
1:55:20rid ourselves of it no no perhaps nor
1:55:22should we right because it's a signal as
1:55:24you point out that we don't understand
1:55:26something that there's there's something
1:55:27to get curious about right a process or
1:55:30something out there or both I think uh
1:55:33that really resonates yeah and I think a
1:55:35lot of people will benefit from from
1:55:36hearing that because I think we hear the
1:55:38word flow and we just all imagine I even
1:55:42catch myself imagining that you know
1:55:43when Robert Green sits down to right
1:55:45it's like there's a blank sheet and then
1:55:47he just kind of meditates and then boom
1:55:49out come these books um but I you know
1:55:52if I get realistic for a second I'm sure
1:55:54that there's a lot of inner turmoil and
1:55:56anxiety oh my God you have no idea so um
1:55:59my process is is 95% pain and maybe 2
1:56:03and a half% ecstasy and I don't know
1:56:06what the other 2 and a half% would be
1:56:09but um so I write a story because all in
1:56:12my new book in most of my books I always
1:56:14begin with a story from history
1:56:17Etc and it is so bad it I just I can't
1:56:22believe how bad how flat it is how it
1:56:24sucks I'm so embarrassed I hate myself
1:56:28then I go and I go dig into and I start
1:56:29changing the words in it I start making
1:56:31it a little bit better the second
1:56:33version It's kind of palatable but it
1:56:36still sucks it's if I let it out into
1:56:38the world be very embarrassing I work I
1:56:41it's an anxious you know and my wife can
1:56:44tell you I'm a miserable being when that
1:56:46happens everything looks black to me at
1:56:48that point and I push through it so if I
1:56:51gave in to my anxiety and this happens
1:56:54with a lot of books and writers I would
1:56:56just put out that second version which
1:56:58isn't very good it isn't very strong it
1:57:00isn't thought through because my ideas
1:57:04when I look at them the first time I go
1:57:06that's not real that's not the actual
1:57:08thing that's going on here Robert you've
1:57:09missed the mark you want to hit what's
1:57:11actually real in that story so you have
1:57:14to go deeper and deeper and harder and
1:57:16harder and harder so I don't just give
1:57:18up and go here's the chapter I go it's
1:57:21got to be better it's got to be better
1:57:23until
1:57:24finally after two months of
1:57:27struggling it seems like it's it's gone
1:57:29to the place that I wanted to be in
1:57:32right but I I use that anxiety to keep
1:57:35improving and making it better and then
1:57:36when I reach that point in the story is
1:57:38good enough and I can let my wife read
1:57:41it and then my editor I feel great I
1:57:43have that 2% moment of Joy but it came
1:57:47through all of that anxiety but I can
1:57:49tell you the feeling of f fillment when
1:57:52I finish a chapter is pretty damn great
1:57:56when I finish a
1:57:57book it's better than any kind of drug
1:58:00experience anyone could ever have it's
1:58:01such a wonderful feeling of
1:58:03accomplishment and pushing past all the
1:58:06barriers you know so my process involves
1:58:10a lot of anxiety and dealing with that's
1:58:12why I'm talking about it why I want to
1:58:13write a book about it thank you for
1:58:16sharing that um I'm attempting to write
1:58:18a book and have been for several years
1:58:19and now I feel a little bit better but
1:58:21clearly I need to ratchet down harder um
1:58:24but in other domains of life I I am
1:58:28familiar with the experience of tons of
1:58:30anxiety and just okay I'm going to just
1:58:32get to this one Milestone and then I'll
1:58:34figure out the next Milestone but even
1:58:36that process of saying okay I'm going to
1:58:37break this down into Milestones itself
1:58:38is anxiety provoking it's just that but
1:58:41at some point it generates enough
1:58:42inertia that you just that you just sort
1:58:44of stumble forward into the process and
1:58:46then keep going so try not to bloody
1:58:48oneself that's right too much yeah I
1:58:51think a lot people will benefit from
1:58:52hearing about that in fact I'm certain
1:58:54they will So speaking of anxiety you
1:58:58have a clip on the internet that we will
1:59:01provide a link to in the show note
1:59:02captions which I think is absolutely
1:59:05fabulous about how to find a romantic
1:59:08partner and or get more out of an
1:59:12existing romantic partnership I don't
1:59:14even remember what I said you're going
1:59:15to have to remind oh it's so good
1:59:19um one point in particular yeah that uh
1:59:23I remember um that I think is oh so true
1:59:28is that there needs to be at least one
1:59:31and probably several uh points of like
1:59:34real convergence in terms of one's
1:59:36interests or likes that go beyond like
1:59:40what food somebody likes or uh you know
1:59:43what type of house they want to live in
1:59:45but that actually traces back to these
1:59:48early forms of delight and you mentioned
1:59:51uh that for you and therefore presumably
1:59:55your partner that you know a mutual love
1:59:58and respect for Animals happens to be
2:00:00one of those things within the context
2:00:01of your relationship right that not that
2:00:03A Love For Animals is required for me it
2:00:06sure as hell is right exactly could
2:00:08never go out with a woman who didn't
2:00:09love animals right my sister used to
2:00:11tease me that um if a woman gave me a
2:00:15birthday card or a card that had a
2:00:17drawing of a particular animal which I'm
2:00:19particularly fond of my sister used I
2:00:21have an older sister and she used to say
2:00:22oh no it's over he's gone you know that
2:00:25it would you know um fortunately it's
2:00:27it's not that simple um but uh there's
2:00:30some truth to what she was saying um
2:00:32it's certainly uh it's necessary but not
2:00:34sufficient but maybe you could elaborate
2:00:36a little bit on this notion of um
2:00:38convergent interest and contrast it with
2:00:42a lot of what people tend to hear and
2:00:46say about what's important in
2:00:48Partnership because I think this is
2:00:50something that a lot of people grapple
2:00:52with both in terms of finding a partner
2:00:53and in terms of building
2:00:56partnership well um you have to you know
2:00:59there's you can there's different
2:01:01relationships you can have I mean do you
2:01:03want like a one week a one month
2:01:05relationship are you looking for
2:01:06something longer more satisfying that
2:01:09will entail you know maybe years of
2:01:11being
2:01:12together and um you know uh people can
2:01:16get very boring very quickly right
2:01:19particularly if you can't have a
2:01:21conversation with them about subjects
2:01:23that interest you and so you mention
2:01:26animals animals is a very good example
2:01:29because it's not I'm not saying that you
2:01:31both have to be Democrats or Republicans
2:01:34that's too banal and superficial but the
2:01:36Love of Animals reaches into your
2:01:39character reaches something deep inside
2:01:41of you or your dislike of animals if
2:01:43that happens to be the case but it
2:01:46signals something about it that's so
2:01:47Primal that's so connected to a
2:01:50child that there's going be a deep
2:01:52connection there and it's not like you
2:01:54have to both love cats which is good if
2:01:57that happens to be the case but just
2:01:59animals in general you love their energy
2:02:01you love the fact that they're that
2:02:03they're innocent in their own way you
2:02:05love the fact that they're not playing
2:02:07games with you you love the kind of
2:02:09instant love you can get from them kind
2:02:11of thing and you connect to them on that
2:02:13level is a very very positive sign
2:02:16because it goes beyond just intellectual
2:02:19things into something emotional and
2:02:21visceral
2:02:22so really the emotional connections the
2:02:26values that you have together are very
2:02:28important money is another one that's
2:02:31extremely important so if one of you is
2:02:34incredibly material oriented and it's
2:02:37all about money is is is power and
2:02:39success and comfort and the other isn't
2:02:43really into it it's into spending money
2:02:45Etc a lot of people have endless fights
2:02:48over something like money right where
2:02:51the there's no convergence there and
2:02:54money signals a deeper value about the
2:02:57person so I'm not saying there's
2:02:59anything wrong if money motivates you
2:03:01I'm not moralizing about it because that
2:03:04can signal a value that maybe you grew
2:03:06up without it and that feeling
2:03:08comfortable and feeling like you don't
2:03:09have to worry about something is very
2:03:11very important to you and the not being
2:03:14interested in money reveals something
2:03:16about your character so I'm telling
2:03:18people you want to look at the person's
2:03:20character and see a kind of convergence
2:03:23there and something that can last and I
2:03:25remember I was reading um for one of my
2:03:28books about Franklin Delo Roosevelt and
2:03:30Elanor Roosevelt and the thing of it was
2:03:32Franklin delanor Roosevelt was this
2:03:34incredibly handsome vibrant young man
2:03:37before he got polio very active very
2:03:39athletic very handsome all the women
2:03:42were after him he was like the perfect
2:03:44match he was wealthy and Elanor
2:03:46Roosevelt was like the ugly duckling she
2:03:48wasn't very pretty she was kind of
2:03:50socially awkward
2:03:52but he saw into her character he saw
2:03:55that intellectually she was a match for
2:03:57him he saw that they had kind of similar
2:04:00interests on that level that I'm talking
2:04:02about that go beneath just the
2:04:04surfaces and he chose Elanor and
2:04:07everyone was shocked about it you know
2:04:09nobody was was trying to court Elanor
2:04:12I've wrote her last name at the time I
2:04:15think she might have in being a
2:04:16Roosevelt um so it was very shocking he
2:04:19said I I looked at somebody who I could
2:04:21last with who had some qualities that
2:04:23were much more important to me and ended
2:04:25up being a very satisfying relationship
2:04:27of course later on he had his Dianes so
2:04:29it wasn't perfect but it was a very it
2:04:32was a very positive relationship so
2:04:36seeing your values in life you know when
2:04:40it comes to like money when it comes to
2:04:42like career when it comes to comfort or
2:04:46lack of comfort some people like not
2:04:49being comfortable they like being on the
2:04:51Ed Ed they want challenges they want to
2:04:53move from City to City kind of thing and
2:04:56if you partner with somebody who just
2:04:58wants to live in the same house you're
2:04:59going to have conflict after conflict
2:05:01after conflict the sex might be great
2:05:04and that might be good for a month or
2:05:06two months I have nothing against that
2:05:07I'm not going to judge that either but
2:05:09it won't lead to a longlasting
2:05:11relationship you know Sports and
2:05:13Athletics are another thing is a someone
2:05:15that likes the outdoors or is it someone
2:05:18who's you know like zaha Gabor and has
2:05:20to be in in a Time Square in a penthouse
2:05:23in Manhattan you know kind of thing so
2:05:26values that reach inside of a per
2:05:28character that are deeply ingrained that
2:05:31you can almost not change you can't
2:05:33control and there's a convergence there
2:05:36on several levels is a sign that you can
2:05:39have a deep connection with that person
2:05:41and it's very important and if those
2:05:45connections are good and there's a
2:05:48physical attraction because if without
2:05:50the physical attraction it will kind of
2:05:52fizzle out you've got a recipe for for
2:05:55incredible success for something that
2:05:56can really last and having a lasting
2:05:59relationship as I've
2:06:01had is is such an anchor in your life
2:06:05you know for me for someone who works as
2:06:07hard as I do and hopefully for her as
2:06:09well it just grounds me and it makes
2:06:11life so much simpler and easier and and
2:06:14it's not just simple and easy there's a
2:06:16lot of love and a great deal of of of
2:06:19deeper emotions involved but having a
2:06:22long-term relationship if you can have
2:06:25it is something that pays off in so many
2:06:27dividends so being able to find that
2:06:29kind of convergence you know when I
2:06:32first met my now my wife um I had a cat
2:06:38at the time I'd always been a dog person
2:06:41but this was a cat I had and I love that
2:06:43cat like hell I can't believe he was
2:06:44such a wonderful
2:06:46cat I brought her over to my apartment
2:06:48on the first date I wanted to see her
2:06:51reaction to the cat you know because I
2:06:53generally and I don't know people
2:06:55misjudge that women who don't like cats
2:06:58I I don't I can't get along with right
2:07:01because there's something feline in the
2:07:03feminine nature that I love and she
2:07:06loved my cat boy that was the best sign
2:07:08of all and things just Bloss and she
2:07:10loved me for loving a cat so there was a
2:07:13great convergence right there that we
2:07:14saw right away and there were other
2:07:16things but that was the first
2:07:18one I love that story and everything you
2:07:22just said suggests I believe that in
2:07:25order to find the right partner and to
2:07:29build an existing partnership that
2:07:31hopefully feels at least partially right
2:07:33to people that it requires at least some
2:07:35knowing of self Because unless you know
2:07:38your character one's own character then
2:07:41it's impossible to really determine if
2:07:44somebody else's character is going to
2:07:46mesh well with it or not self-awareness
2:07:49is is actually the most important
2:07:50quality in life for all aspects but yeah
2:07:54I mean if we go by social pressures a
2:07:58man will choose a trophy wife who looks
2:08:00sexy and hot and will impress all of his
2:08:03male friends etc etc you go by the
2:08:05things that culture tells you that these
2:08:07are the right images for you right and
2:08:11then there won't be any connection to
2:08:12you because you're choosing for purposes
2:08:14that don't connect to who you are and so
2:08:17you have to know yourself you have to
2:08:19know what you love you have to know what
2:08:20you hate I think most people know that
2:08:24they love animals or don't love animals
2:08:26I think most people know that they like
2:08:28stability or they like things to be kind
2:08:31of slightly chaotic I don't think you
2:08:33have to go through deep levels of
2:08:36introspection but what you have to do is
2:08:38when you're involved in a relationship
2:08:40you have to think that those things
2:08:42matter that's the problem you tend to
2:08:45think that those things matter you think
2:08:46that sex matters more than anything
2:08:48physical attraction matters or you think
2:08:50that the person having a lot of money
2:08:52matters etc etc you don't think that
2:08:55this other aspect is important if you
2:08:58value what I'm talking about then your
2:09:01self-awareness will kick in because you
2:09:02really basically know these essential
2:09:04basic parts about your own character I
2:09:07think people sometimes get um distracted
2:09:10by admiration of qualities that they
2:09:13might
2:09:14find admirable but that don't mesh with
2:09:18their own character I've seen this many
2:09:20times before where examp well uh where
2:09:22someone will say well there someone will
2:09:24start listing off the positive
2:09:26attributes of the person that they
2:09:27happen to be dating like he does this
2:09:30blank blank and blank she does this you
2:09:32know he volunteers Etc and that's all
2:09:34great I mean volunteering for good
2:09:36causes I'm all in support of that but
2:09:38then what they're overlooking often it
2:09:41seems is whether or not that's a core
2:09:43value for them or whether or not it's
2:09:45just something that they admire I hear a
2:09:47lot of admiration in the early days of
2:09:48relationships that later I hear about
2:09:50failing and what you're talking about is
2:09:52something deeper more uh aligned with
2:09:56one's own sense of self and it almost um
2:10:00leads me to use the word you know sort
2:10:02of a more about energetics it's like
2:10:05merging of people's energies which
2:10:07sounds very new Agy and that's not my
2:10:09intention but but I think it relates to
2:10:12something that we do hear a lot about
2:10:14and I think is valid which is how it
2:10:16feels to be around somebody in different
2:10:18context like do we feel at ease do we
2:10:20feel lightness and ability to express
2:10:22ourselves and to um and do we enjoy and
2:10:25admire them in their expression as
2:10:27opposed to just admiring what they do
2:10:30they've accomplished blank blank and
2:10:31blank I see right they uh manifest these
2:10:34qualities that I wish I had right you
2:10:35hear that and and aspire to have which
2:10:38is very different than a meshing of of
2:10:41energies also there a couple other
2:10:44things you have to understand their
2:10:46character as well and people can be very
2:10:48deceptive and very slippery and can wear
2:10:50masks
2:10:51one telling sign that I've noticed in my
2:10:53own relationships in the
2:10:56past is that the woman would be a
2:10:58certain way with me that I thought was
2:11:00very good and I liked and then the
2:11:01moment we were with other people she
2:11:04acted in a way that was very irritating
2:11:06it's like a different character and I
2:11:08really kind of fell out of love with her
2:11:11when I saw her in social interactions
2:11:13she revealed so with me she was almost
2:11:16wearing a mask and playing a game but
2:11:18the moment she entered a different
2:11:19circumstance I saw other aspect to her
2:11:22character so you also have to be very
2:11:24attentive to their character what lies
2:11:26underneath that they have some of these
2:11:28values that they're not just trying to
2:11:30win you over for whatever and they're
2:11:32playing along with you the other thing
2:11:34that's very
2:11:35important is a sense of mystery so a
2:11:40partner can become boring very very
2:11:42quickly right after a year you know
2:11:44every single thing about them right
2:11:47they're going to say the same things the
2:11:50conversations go around found in circles
2:11:53it's just you've reached an end there's
2:11:54no surprises there's no mystery you want
2:11:57somebody where they have corners that
2:12:00you don't really see at first that they
2:12:03surprise you sometimes suddenly there's
2:12:05a quality that you hadn't suspected
2:12:07before so people who are too obvious who
2:12:10are too familiar who show everything
2:12:12instantly they're going to end up boring
2:12:15you right but people who have a bit of
2:12:18Reserve I I know this is maybe I'm I'm
2:12:21projecting my own values on the world
2:12:23but people who who kind of intrigue you
2:12:26that you don't fully understand that
2:12:28make you want to know more and if they
2:12:30can be like that after two years or
2:12:32three years or five years wow that's
2:12:33fantastic but the sense of I know every
2:12:36single thing about this person they
2:12:38never surprise me anymore is what kind
2:12:40of breaks the the the enchantment and
2:12:43leads to the end of the relationship
2:12:46well the idea of more to learn about
2:12:47somebody um perhaps also suggests that
2:12:50they are continuing to evolve into
2:12:52forage in the landscape of life you know
2:12:54that they're not fully baked right that
2:12:57which I think is um an interesting idea
2:13:00in during the four episode series that
2:13:02we did on Mental Health Paul kti a
2:13:04psychiatrist said that um a matching of
2:13:07generative drives which he defined as
2:13:10the desire to create something in the
2:13:11world of One's Own expression is really
2:13:13critical in relationship and he said you
2:13:16know it matters less whether or not one
2:13:17person likes classical music and the
2:13:19other person rock and roll provid that
2:13:21their relationship to music is similar
2:13:24or something of that sort like that it's
2:13:26about a drive to of a certain sort to
2:13:28engage in the world so one person could
2:13:30love music the other person's not into
2:13:31music but the way that they approach
2:13:34life is one of perhaps Mutual curiosity
2:13:38desire to find out Etc and that this
2:13:40exists on a Continuum uh I'm curious if
2:13:43uh it seems to jive with what you're
2:13:45with what you're saying it does but the
2:13:46only thing I would add is if you love
2:13:49classical music and they love like heavy
2:13:53metal music you're going to be driven
2:13:55crazy pretty quickly it's going to you
2:13:57know it's not going to mesh with you and
2:13:58I know I would have that problem you'll
2:14:00both be in headphones a
2:14:02lot right so the fact that you both have
2:14:05because music is like animals in a way
2:14:09so I agree completely with what you're
2:14:11saying but I would say maybe music isn't
2:14:13the best example because music says
2:14:16something very deep about a person right
2:14:19there and you know I'm not saying one is
2:14:21superior to the other but it reveals
2:14:24something that's nonverbal that that
2:14:26kind of gives you a window into who they
2:14:29are so if they like punk rock like you
2:14:33do and I grew up on punk rock there's a
2:14:35rebellious thing this to there's an
2:14:37anti-authoritarian quality that's very
2:14:39strong you get you get to see that
2:14:41through them if they like modart and
2:14:44soft string quartets there's somebody
2:14:47that kind of values softness and
2:14:49tranquility and peace and you're not
2:14:51like that so the music kind of shows you
2:14:55something a quality about their
2:14:56character that can be very telling can
2:14:58be very eloquent and so it doesn't mean
2:15:00that you both have to love The Clash or
2:15:04the dead kennedies or whatever showing
2:15:06my own Generation Um but that you both
2:15:10have that rebellious streak and that
2:15:13rebellious streak could be you like
2:15:15there's classical music composers who
2:15:17could be pretty damn rebellious and
2:15:19angry you know and I actually kind of
2:15:21like them so that convergence I think is
2:15:23a positive one kind of thing but in
2:15:25general I agree with that I'm curious
2:15:28about the nonverbal communication
2:15:30component of all types of relationships
2:15:33but let's stay in the landscape of
2:15:35romantic relationships for the moment
2:15:37yeah maybe include professional
2:15:38relationships too because what you just
2:15:40described is really about a resonance
2:15:43around the non-verbal stuff I mean it
2:15:45can be articulated with words yeah um I
2:15:48love animals I love this music this is
2:15:49the best song like did you see that like
2:15:51otter are amazing right this kind of
2:15:53thing but language is just an attempt to
2:15:57place you know words on a Feeling in
2:15:58those instances so it it can be
2:16:01classified as non-verbal
2:16:04um with respect to non-verbal
2:16:06communication you've
2:16:08written fairly extensively about the
2:16:11fact that people often communicate with
2:16:14their body and facial
2:16:15expressions um I'm certainly familiar
2:16:18with the somewhat if not not very eerie
2:16:21sensation of somebody um smiling like a
2:16:24toothy smile and then it as they pivot
2:16:29away that smile just dissolving very
2:16:31quickly and um you know you don't have
2:16:33to be a neuroscientist or a psychologist
2:16:35to realize that like there was something
2:16:37quite false about that experience or
2:16:40that this person experiences um emotions
2:16:43like step functions on off on off which
2:16:46is not how most of us experience
2:16:48emotions most of us experience emotions
2:16:49with some pervasiveness like I was happy
2:16:51walking in the door because of something
2:16:53happened before and so I'm going to
2:16:54smile while I'm walking in the door if I
2:16:56see something shocking and dismaying of
2:16:57course I'm going to frown I'm going to
2:16:58wipe away that smile but those are rare
2:17:00instances so um let's talk about the
2:17:04mouth the eyes the face the body in the
2:17:06context of communication what are what
2:17:07are some important things to P attention
2:17:10one that I I I I wanted to go back on as
2:17:11far as convergence is sense of humor is
2:17:14extremely important right so it's not
2:17:17like you both like the same comedians
2:17:19but if one person likes runchy humor and
2:17:21the other person doesn't that's that's a
2:17:23problem and also the fact that the
2:17:25person doesn't have a sense of humor or
2:17:28doesn't make you laugh is a very very
2:17:30bad sign so I wanted to add that one
2:17:32component in there I'm so glad you did
2:17:34uh someone who can make me laugh has uh
2:17:38you know necessary but not sufficient
2:17:40but boy it's uh approaching sufficient
2:17:43yeah I'd say so I'd say so um you know
2:17:46when it comes to the Art of Seduction
2:17:48The Art of Seduction is a nonverbal
2:17:51language that you must Master it's a
2:17:53language of the gifts that you give it's
2:17:55a ma it's a language of of how you smell
2:17:58it's a language that you TR that you
2:18:00communicate through the eyes etc etc and
2:18:03the thing you have to understand about
2:18:05the human being is that we evolved for
2:18:08much longer period of time without words
2:18:11than the small 40 35,000 years that we
2:18:14have symbolic language so during that
2:18:18vast period of Darkness where we did not
2:18:20have words words we were non
2:18:23communicating non-verbally we were
2:18:24picking up signals from people we were
2:18:27watching every little detail of their
2:18:30behavior because we didn't have words to
2:18:32decipher it so it's wired into our
2:18:35brains to have an amazing sensitivity to
2:18:39people's non-verbal Communications we
2:18:41can almost be telepathic that way if we
2:18:44learn that
2:18:45language the problem is we have the
2:18:48capacity but we don't develop it at all
2:18:51because we are so word oriented you're
2:18:53just listening to people if you're even
2:18:56listening to them at all you're just
2:18:57hearing the words and you're so thinking
2:19:00that the words mean something the words
2:19:01are sincere which they're often not at
2:19:04the same time that you're listening so
2:19:05much to words people are shuffling in
2:19:08their chair they're kind of looking away
2:19:10they're looking at other women or other
2:19:11men their voice is kind of trembling
2:19:14when they say something that where it
2:19:15shouldn't tremble their eyes are dead
2:19:18the smile is kind of fake you're not
2:19:19watching any of it so the most important
2:19:22thing in non-verbal communication law
2:19:24number one is pay attention to it
2:19:27continually develop the practice of
2:19:30shutting off the words and watching
2:19:32people almost as if you took the
2:19:34television and muted it right and just
2:19:36watch their behavior it's not easy and
2:19:39it's not natural because it's the words
2:19:41the words the words we want to we want
2:19:42to focus on them right but your ability
2:19:47to turn that television off to mute it
2:19:50will suddenly open up so many things
2:19:53about people they reveal so much things
2:19:55Sigman Freud said people are continually
2:19:57oozing out all of their secrets through
2:19:59their non-verbal Behavior you can read
2:20:02them like an open book if you master
2:20:04this language and I have the laws of
2:20:07human nature I described the story of
2:20:10Milton Ericson I don't know if you're
2:20:11familiar with Milton Ericson perhaps the
2:20:13greatest modern master of non-verbal
2:20:16communication he was a an amazing
2:20:19psychologist he sort of um is the
2:20:23inspiration behind um n what's it called
2:20:27n help me out here neuro linguistic oh
2:20:30the NLP I mean it's kind of a
2:20:33bastardization of his ideas but he's he
2:20:35created hypnotherapy he's the person who
2:20:37created hypnotherapy certainly I uh
2:20:39hypnotherapy is is a valid psychiatric
2:20:41practice I mean it's excellent clinical
2:20:43data to support well Milton Erikson had
2:20:45Polio when he was
2:20:4719 and he was paralyzed his entire body
2:20:50was par paralyzed he couldn't even move
2:20:52his
2:20:53eyeballs right and he sat in bed and he
2:20:56had a very active mind and he was going
2:20:59to just die from sheer boredom and what
2:21:01he did during the two years of being
2:21:03paralyzed like that was just watching
2:21:06People's non-verbal communication and
2:21:08making notes in his brain and learning
2:21:11every single he learned the 20 different
2:21:14forms of yes the hundred different forms
2:21:17of no right every intonation how
2:21:20somebody entered the room how they left
2:21:22the room you know how they looked at him
2:21:24with the pity or empathy or something he
2:21:27mastered it and then when he became a
2:21:30psychiatrist and he treated people they
2:21:32thought he was psychic he could see
2:21:34everything into them it's because for
2:21:37two years that's all he could do was
2:21:39Observe them he couldn't speak he
2:21:40couldn't do anything he couldn't read a
2:21:43book so you have that same power but you
2:21:46don't have polio obviously but you have
2:21:49to first pay attention to it right it's
2:21:53an amazing thing once you do it's a lot
2:21:56of fun actually and I tell people go to
2:21:59a cafe one day in your city wherever you
2:22:01live and just watch people because you
2:22:04can't hear them they're a few tables
2:22:06away watch their non-verbal Behavior as
2:22:08they interact and see if if you pick up
2:22:10cues from them and they're things that
2:22:12are signs of genuine emotions so for
2:22:15instance an exercise you can do is you
2:22:19go up to somebody
2:22:21from an angle where they can't see you
2:22:23coming up to them and you surprise them
2:22:25you go hey hey Mike whatever they turn
2:22:28for that second their expression reveals
2:22:30how they really think about you you'll
2:22:33detect if you can pick up micro
2:22:35expressions and and you can they're only
2:22:37like one 150th of a second but they're
2:22:41there you can express a kind of and they
2:22:43smile you can see the little disdain in
2:22:46their eyes right then the mask comes on
2:22:50right right or you're talking to them
2:22:53they're looking at you but their feet
2:22:55are facing in an opposite direction that
2:22:57means that they're dying to get away
2:22:59from you kind of thing these are signals
2:23:01that you don't necessarily pay attention
2:23:03to their posture will tell you
2:23:06everything about their levels of
2:23:07confidence right on and on and on the
2:23:10fake smile if you can just Master the
2:23:13ability to detect the fake smile it will
2:23:15go wonders for you because you're able
2:23:18to see what you really want to do is to
2:23:20see the person with a genuine smile
2:23:23particularly in romantic
2:23:24relationships someone whose face lights
2:23:27up a real smile lights your whole face
2:23:29up it doesn't light your mouth that
2:23:32these parts of your face go up your eyes
2:23:34get alive there's like there's like a a
2:23:38neuro thing going on in your brain
2:23:40that's changing your whole facial
2:23:42expression and it means that someone
2:23:44genuinely likes you they're genuinely
2:23:46interested in you they're genuinely
2:23:48laughing or connecting to you man and if
2:23:50you can see that it'll help you so much
2:23:53in the Romantic realm and then it'll
2:23:55help you get away from those toxic
2:23:57people that are continually faking
2:24:00interest in you because a narcissist a
2:24:03toxic
2:24:04person thrives by deceiving you with a
2:24:08Charming alluring front that makes you
2:24:11come into their world then they can hurt
2:24:13you then they can do something to you
2:24:14right then they have you in in in their
2:24:17in their you know in their trap right so
2:24:19being able to see that they're not
2:24:21genuinely interested in you that they're
2:24:23faking it will help you avoid very toxic
2:24:26relationships and as I said to you I
2:24:28don't know if we were on air or not but
2:24:30deep narcissists have dead eyes they
2:24:33they almost can't help it they can fake
2:24:35the smile they can fake everything else
2:24:38but the eyes you have to be able to read
2:24:41it because you say well what are dead
2:24:42eyes you'll know it when you see it
2:24:44there's no life in them they're like
2:24:46looking through you they're not looking
2:24:48at you they're looking through you what
2:24:49can I get of you you're what they call a
2:24:52selfobject they're an object for you to
2:24:54use and that's how they're looking at
2:24:56you like they would look at a hammer or
2:24:57something yeah the concept of dead eyes
2:25:01and also alive eyes is so fascinating
2:25:05because um as audience of this podcast
2:25:08will know that because I've said it too
2:25:10much but I'll say it again that the eyes
2:25:12are the only two pieces of your brain
2:25:13that are outside the cranial Vault I
2:25:15mean they're literally two pieces of
2:25:16brain lining the back of your eyes and
2:25:18the Dynamics of the pupils those changes
2:25:21of course reflect how bright or dim it
2:25:23is in the room but they also reflect
2:25:25levels of arousal that are on the
2:25:27millisecond time scale so as one
2:25:29expresses you know words of um of Glee
2:25:32right the pupils constrict a little bit
2:25:34believe it or not or excuse me dilate a
2:25:36little bit I got it backwards there for
2:25:37a moment um and vice versa you know as
2:25:40one feels uh less less excited um sort
2:25:44of moments of Despair expressions of
2:25:46Despair the pupils should get a little
2:25:47bit smaller because arousal is going
2:25:49down and so I think you know we pick up
2:25:52on these things at a unconscious level
2:25:54do um the deadness of the eyes is is
2:25:56kind of the the um the the conclusion
2:26:00that that pops out at us if we're paying
2:26:01attention but the problem is it love it
2:26:04registers unconsciously but we don't
2:26:06give it any value to it we trust our
2:26:09words we trust our rationality as
2:26:11opposed to our intuitions about people
2:26:13so sometimes when you meet a person for
2:26:15the first time signals go up in your
2:26:17mind brain something's wrong about them
2:26:19and then you forget it because you don't
2:26:21trust those initial unconscious signals
2:26:24that your brain is giving you right so
2:26:26you have to you have to first kind of
2:26:28trust that this that these intuitions
2:26:30are very valuable the other thing is pay
2:26:34deep attention to the tone of voice The
2:26:37Voice as actors will tell you is like
2:26:40the hardest thing to fake right it's
2:26:43very hard to fake excitement your voice
2:26:47either has it or it doesn't it's very
2:26:49hard to fake confidence and you can I
2:26:53mean books have been written about that
2:26:54I'm not going to go into all the the
2:26:56details about it but the person will
2:26:59reveal so much of their emotional of the
2:27:02emotions that they're experiencing
2:27:04particularly levels of confidence you
2:27:07know like a trembling Voice or something
2:27:09or a booming confident voice which some
2:27:12people can fake but often it's very
2:27:14difficult you can still see through it
2:27:16and on the level of Seduction
2:27:20women men are very very attuned to the
2:27:23voice of a woman but we're not aware of
2:27:25it because the voice of our mother had
2:27:28an incredible impact on us in early
2:27:30early early childhood her singing her
2:27:33the tone of her voice that was probably
2:27:36the first seduction that we ever went
2:27:37through and a woman's voice has
2:27:40tremendous power over us right and so
2:27:45hearing a voice that kind of grates or
2:27:47irritates you is is something that's
2:27:49that's a bad side and that goes deeper
2:27:51than all the characteristics that we
2:27:52were talking about but a woman's voice
2:27:55that kind of reminds you of that mother
2:27:57that sing song you whatever feeling it
2:27:59was that's that's somebody that's that
2:28:02can very easily seduce you yeah there's
2:28:04a um there's a place for uh naming this
2:28:09of it's like subcortical courtship uh
2:28:11you know you know below the cortex as a
2:28:14the geeky neuroscientists like myself
2:28:16say you know you're getting down below
2:28:17the cortex with all of this stuff you
2:28:19know convergence of of real uh loves and
2:28:22desires I mean we express with words we
2:28:24sense the world using of course our
2:28:26cortex but we're really talking about
2:28:28getting into the the subcortical stuff
2:28:30that is the stuff of our history the
2:28:33stuff of our um hardwiring and our
2:28:35unique our uniqueness I couldn't help
2:28:38but think about the fact that earlier we
2:28:39were talking about the now you know
2:28:41infinitely vast number of choices of
2:28:44things to engage in people to engage
2:28:46with Etc but at the same time as you
2:28:49were now talking about um these micro
2:28:52inflections and the subtleties of voice
2:28:54and bodily
2:28:55communication that whether or not it's
2:28:59emojis or people sending filtered images
2:29:02or the default to text message
2:29:05communication that is so prominent now
2:29:07it seems like we now have more choices
2:29:09so uh more input
2:29:12but the sort of qualitative differences
2:29:16between the inputs have been binned into
2:29:18a couple of simple bins as if it's as if
2:29:21we've um regressed to primary colors
2:29:24only um but the canvas is huge or may I
2:29:26don't know if that analogy works but you
2:29:28you get the idea because ultimately in
2:29:30order to develop good choices about
2:29:32profession romantic relationships
2:29:34friendships you need a lot of examples
2:29:37and a lot of information that allows you
2:29:40to glean the subtlety um but as long as
2:29:43it's emojis and filtered pictures taken
2:29:45at a particular angle you know usually
2:29:48from above ask for the picture your head
2:29:50on and Below send me a picture of your
2:29:52worst your worst expression um all of
2:29:54that um it seems that there's now
2:29:58increased opportunity for deception and
2:30:01I don't just mean people misleading
2:30:02others I also mean us misleading
2:30:04ourselves like oh my goodness how could
2:30:06I be so disappointed yet again about
2:30:09particular landscape of life it doesn't
2:30:11just have to be romantic interactions it
2:30:12could be other Landscapes like how could
2:30:14I be fooled well you're fooled because
2:30:16the the uh the inputs were deficient
2:30:20not good data as we say well the thing
2:30:24is if things are you're immersed in the
2:30:26virtual
2:30:28realm it's very very hard to master the
2:30:31non-verbal communication aspect which is
2:30:34so important so if you're dating from an
2:30:37app and you're flipping through and then
2:30:39you find that person you've missed out
2:30:42on the greatest experience of life which
2:30:45is actually having to go out to a bar or
2:30:47go to a restaurant or go to a social
2:30:49event and have to literally encounter
2:30:52another person and deal with looking at
2:30:55their their behavior and kind of
2:30:57assessing who they are it's a muscle
2:31:00that you have to pay attention to
2:31:02non-verbal communication and if you're
2:31:05just you know going through the Emojis
2:31:08or going through the Tinder apps that
2:31:10muscle completely atrophies you have no
2:31:13power you're not able to decipher
2:31:15anything and that's what's happening
2:31:17with a lot of people who are using these
2:31:20ABS a social skills are like any skill
2:31:23at all they you have to develop them
2:31:26it's a muscle you have to develop and
2:31:28you've all noticed this probably in your
2:31:30own life if you've gone through a period
2:31:32where you're kind of retreating you
2:31:34don't want to be around people and you
2:31:36spend a month like that and then you go
2:31:38out you feel awkward it takes you like a
2:31:41couple days to get used to being around
2:31:43other people you say stupid things your
2:31:46body language is awkward but if you're
2:31:48in a situation for months where you're
2:31:49constantly interacting people you're on
2:31:51a film set and day in day out day out
2:31:54that skill starts developing but you
2:31:56have to be out there in the world you
2:31:58have to be interacting you have to be
2:31:59looking at people's emotions you have to
2:32:01be gauging them in real time we're not
2:32:05built for virtual encounters we're
2:32:08creatures of human of Flesh and Blood
2:32:10and we need to be looking at each other
2:32:12in the eye and paying attention to all
2:32:14these little details these nuances that
2:32:17you can only get in person a on those
2:32:20lines what are your thoughts about Ai
2:32:22and how that's going to shape our um
2:32:25sense of self sense of others and
2:32:27relationships as if that's a topic that
2:32:29could be covered in uh a series of
2:32:32minutes but what what are your um what
2:32:35are your top Contour maybe even deeper
2:32:37thoughts about AI well I'm G to I'm
2:32:39going to piss a lot of people off but
2:32:41I'm I'm kind of very concerned about it
2:32:43um I mentioned before about anxiety the
2:32:46role that anxiety plays in thinking you
2:32:49come upon an IDE
2:32:50idea and you go yeah that's all good
2:32:52then you go to the next level and it
2:32:54becomes better then you go oh maybe
2:32:56that's not so good then you go to the
2:32:57next level you go to level three and it
2:32:59gets better and better you have anxiety
2:33:02another aspect of intelligence is
2:33:04self-awareness right the be to look at
2:33:06yourself go I have biases I have
2:33:08confirmation bias I have conviction bias
2:33:11I have recency bias I have to counteract
2:33:14these things I also have a dark side I
2:33:17have aggression I have to be aware of
2:33:19how they color my thinking my emotions
2:33:21the third quality that goes into int I'm
2:33:23talking about now intelligence not
2:33:26artificial intelligence to be able to
2:33:27deal anxiety and go to a third level
2:33:29intelligence is the ability to look
2:33:31inside of yourself and see your own
2:33:32biases and the third thing is the
2:33:34ability to see a holistic picture the
2:33:37kind of aha moment that scientists have
2:33:40where you accumulate all kind of data
2:33:42points and then out of nowhere an image
2:33:44comes to your mind of yeah there's the
2:33:47answer you see the whole thing you see
2:33:49the whole G
2:33:50right Simone vile compared it to a a um
2:33:55a square Cube you can only see a cube
2:33:58from one side or you can never see a a
2:34:01square Cube you can only see a side of
2:34:04it if it's rotating you're still only
2:34:05seeing sides of it only in your mind can
2:34:08you picture the whole thing so the mind
2:34:10has to go through a process to have
2:34:12holistic thinking if they can invent a
2:34:16machine that can deal with anxiety and
2:34:19has has anxiety and it can go to level
2:34:21three if they can make a machine that
2:34:23can be self-aware that can go the people
2:34:26who program me have biases therefore I
2:34:29have biases I also have a dark side
2:34:31because people have programmed me who
2:34:32have a dark side if this machine can
2:34:35also think holistically beyond all of
2:34:38the data points and all the mass of
2:34:40information it's combined it can have
2:34:42that aha moment all right I can see a
2:34:45human consciousness I can see creativity
2:34:47there the other thing I would say is
2:34:50when I was a student at Berkeley going
2:34:52way back I was 19 years old I decided
2:34:55One Summer was is a big paradigm shift
2:34:58for me I'm going to take this class in
2:35:01ancient Greek in six weeks they teach
2:35:04you a year of ancient Greek that means
2:35:07every day you have an exam every Friday
2:35:09you have a final exam eight hours every
2:35:12day of a dead language I thought this
2:35:14would be the best discipline for me
2:35:16after someone who didn't been doing too
2:35:17many drugs to be honest with you okay
2:35:20and so finally at one point they give us
2:35:23this paragraph of the hardest ancient
2:35:25Greek writer of all to read this was
2:35:27near the end through cities or through
2:35:29kitties as they
2:35:30say I stared so I had I had like the
2:35:33whole night to try and translate one
2:35:35paragraph I couldn't figure it out you
2:35:38have to understand the the weirdness of
2:35:39ancient Greek all the endings the weird
2:35:42ways of thinking the whole picture that
2:35:44aha moment was eluding me at one point I
2:35:47thought I got it and I translated it and
2:35:50I gave it to the teacher next day I
2:35:51remember he was this kind of hippie that
2:35:53you'd have at Berkeley Dennis classic
2:35:55Professor but also a hippie the fact
2:35:57that you knew his first name is very
2:35:58telling I can only remember his first
2:35:59name Dennis he he's he said Robert I can
2:36:03see your thinking but you need to go to
2:36:05another level you missed you didn't have
2:36:08that aha moment you didn't put the whole
2:36:09thing together you were close but you
2:36:11didn't you have to try harder and that
2:36:13stuck in my mind forever like whenever I
2:36:16have a problem I have to think harder I
2:36:18have to go to that next level
2:36:20now what would happen if I had pulled
2:36:22out my translation of thusi and just
2:36:25copied that out right or what have
2:36:27happened if I put it through chat GPT
2:36:30and it gave me the translation that
2:36:33muscle in my brain that I have developed
2:36:34for 40 years that allows me to write
2:36:36books would never have developed and
2:36:39that muscle is I don't know the answer
2:36:42here I have to go to another level I
2:36:44have to try harder I have to think I
2:36:45have to think I have to have that engine
2:36:47woring around right but if I just grab
2:36:50for chat GPT it's deadened and then
2:36:53we're going to have a whole generation
2:36:54of people who stop thinking who don't go
2:36:56through that process you know you've
2:36:58heard of Douglas hter I think he said
2:37:01people train to go to Mount Everest it
2:37:04takes months physical exertion it's
2:37:07painful then they climb M Everest they
2:37:09see the top whoa what a great moment he
2:37:12said chat PT be the equivalent of taking
2:37:15a helicopter to the top of Mount Everest
2:37:17without any of that training and having
2:37:19the same moment it's not the same right
2:37:23you need to go through that process you
2:37:25need to go through that pain and if you
2:37:27just and the thing of is Chad gbt we
2:37:29think we're so modern So Sophisticated
2:37:32but really we're just seduced by Magic
2:37:34you put it in there and you see the
2:37:36scrip
2:37:37going whoa It's like magic it's like a
2:37:40magician but it's empty it's like not
2:37:42your brain functioning right it's p it's
2:37:45the Pagan part of us we like that kind
2:37:48of magic
2:37:49as opposed to actually having to go
2:37:51through the thought process itself so
2:37:55I'm not in FA against having tools I use
2:37:58tools I use the internet I use Google
2:38:00I'm searching for like some factoid from
2:38:03my book I find it I use it I I like it
2:38:07but I've also learned to develop my
2:38:09brain to think to get that engine
2:38:11constantly moving and I'm deeply
2:38:13concerned about G people who can't learn
2:38:15a foreign language who can't master
2:38:17anything who just immediately grab the
2:38:19first answer that it generates etc etc I
2:38:23have
2:38:23concerns I am too and I was thinking a
2:38:26moment ago that you know like some
2:38:29people might hear what you just said and
2:38:30say oh well the same thing was probably
2:38:32said about the automobile like how many
2:38:34amazing experiences of walking from one
2:38:37place to another are going to be lost
2:38:38when people start driving from one place
2:38:40to another but I think a key difference
2:38:44and this certainly aligns with
2:38:45everything you just said is that what
2:38:48you're talking about is not just
2:38:49arriving at the same destination you're
2:38:51saying the destination itself is
2:38:53different when one exerts some effort
2:38:55and experiences some anxiety to get
2:38:57there so it's not the same as automobile
2:39:00versus horse versus walking versus
2:39:01airplane it's fundamentally different
2:39:03because the the journey transforms the
2:39:05outcome yeah yeah I I'm in agreement
2:39:09with you about many aspects of AI I'm
2:39:11also excited about it in the context of
2:39:13certain things I I I I agree with you it
2:39:15could be a tool but are we operating the
2:39:19tool the tool operating us is what I'm
2:39:21talking about I am concerned a bit too
2:39:24especially in the context of what we've
2:39:26been talking about for most of today's
2:39:28discussion about um avatars replacing
2:39:32our online personas too much um you know
2:39:35the
2:39:36Avatar of ourselves is already taking
2:39:39place through through filters through uh
2:39:42reduction of emotional expression to
2:39:44emojis through reduction of of language
2:39:47to a diminished number of words to
2:39:49explain one's feelings you know a prior
2:39:51guest on this podcast um Lisa Feldman
2:39:53Barrett who's an expert in emotions
2:39:55talked about how the moment that a
2:39:58culture has a word for a particular
2:40:01subset of anxious feelings so so for
2:40:03instance she taught me that in Japanese
2:40:05there's a word for the sadness one
2:40:07experiences when they get a bad haircut
2:40:09yeah I know you know and so that
2:40:11normalizes the feeling and leads to
2:40:14feelings of less despair as opposed to
2:40:16what now many kids especially grow up
2:40:19Lear learning which I'm anxious I'm sad
2:40:21I'm depressed that you know in science
2:40:23we say there are lumpers and there are
2:40:24Splitters and they've been arguing for
2:40:26years about like is that one brain
2:40:27structure well if I name those two
2:40:29things next to each other two different
2:40:30things not only can I name one after
2:40:31myself which is what tends to happen so
2:40:34to speak but when you have too many
2:40:36lumpers or too many Splitters things are
2:40:38either overly simple or overly complex
2:40:40that of course the right answer the the
2:40:42the best use of naming things arve
2:40:46someplace in the middle that's how a
2:40:48field progresses cuz if you if you lump
2:40:49things together too much a field can't
2:40:51progress you give yourself the illusion
2:40:53that it's progressing but it's not
2:40:54progressing but if you split things up
2:40:56into a million different subcategories
2:40:57like just even the word adrenaline is
2:40:59also called epinephrine and that's has
2:41:01to do with basically people arguing over
2:41:03who got credit crazy and it's confus
2:41:05people for for decades yeah and there's
2:41:07a there's another story there that and I
2:41:09know far too much about the scientists
2:41:11involved and the there was a love
2:41:12triangle about naming of certain parts
2:41:14of the nervous system that oh yeah
2:41:16people sleeping with other people's
2:41:17partners and love triangles have created
2:41:20more drama of gnomen clature in science
2:41:23I I could do a whole hour on this um in
2:41:26any case I what I'm hearing from you is
2:41:28that we cannot afford to lose our sense
2:41:31of nuance and also because that sense of
2:41:35nuance Taps into what we're really
2:41:37experiencing and AI threatens that that
2:41:41we can become avatars of oursel well
2:41:43look at it this way we we worship
2:41:46technology it's our new religion okay
2:41:49and we worship chap GPT as if it's a God
2:41:52and seriously there's religious elements
2:41:54going on here what we really should
2:41:56worship is the human brain which is the
2:41:59greatest creation in the known universe
2:42:01I'm afraid it is the most complex piece
2:42:04of matter in the entire universe the
2:42:07number of neurons the number of synapses
2:42:09the number of possible connections
2:42:11between neurons is infinite practically
2:42:13infinite it is a wondrous instrument it
2:42:17is so powerful we've we've very scratch
2:42:19the surface of what we can use for it
2:42:21let us worship that brain that's in your
2:42:23head you only have so many years to use
2:42:26it you have so many use to develop it it
2:42:28is so wonderful and Powerful that can
2:42:30bring you such pleasure so much power in
2:42:33life so tools are fine we all need tools
2:42:36we all need we need hammers we need
2:42:38Nails we need saws Etc but the real
2:42:41thing is the hand that uses it the brain
2:42:43that connects the hand to the Hammer
2:42:45that knows how to to hit things you know
2:42:48I think of the of the um the great
2:42:51painter Renoir in the 19th century he
2:42:54had like a a stroke or something that
2:42:57the last years he couldn't move his
2:43:00right arm which was she painted with and
2:43:03it was disastrous so what he did is he
2:43:05put the brush in his mouth and he
2:43:08painted and he painted some beautiful
2:43:09paintings that way because his brain had
2:43:13mastered the art of painting not his
2:43:16hand but his brain had mastered it so
2:43:18well that he could actually paint well
2:43:19with the brush in his mouth because he
2:43:22could direct it and he he had the
2:43:24knowledge of how to make something
2:43:25perfect the brain is absolutely
2:43:27incredible the plasticity of the brain
2:43:30which I'm discovering after my stroke is
2:43:33absolutely a miracle you know what I
2:43:36don't know is it Professor Schwarz at
2:43:38UCLA who was studying OCD and how he was
2:43:41able to kind of cure people of OCD
2:43:44through certain plasticity exercises
2:43:46that he had making them aware of their
2:43:49kind of brain lock Etc and getting them
2:43:52out of it the that plasticity of the
2:43:55brain is by far the greatest Miracle of
2:43:57all and it goes on into your 60s and 70s
2:44:00and on onward let's all get down on our
2:44:04hands and knees and worship the brain
2:44:06and if we did it would create a complete
2:44:08shift in our values and we wouldn't be
2:44:10so instantly seduced and enamored and
2:44:14worshiping the technology we would
2:44:16worship the brains that create the
2:44:18technology
2:44:19instead of you know the other way around
2:44:22I certainly got a fan of brains and
2:44:24their uh potential for plasticity
2:44:27sitting over here uh I have the benefit
2:44:30of having my scientific
2:44:32great-grandparents are Hub and weasel
2:44:33who won the Nobel Prize for
2:44:34neuroplasticity during the critical
2:44:36period say that again so my scientific
2:44:38great-grandparents are David hubel and
2:44:40toron visel David's dead torsten's still
2:44:42alive he's 96 and they won the Nobel
2:44:44Prize for essentially discovering the
2:44:46critical window early in development
2:44:48where plasticity is especially robust
2:44:50they did other things too they should
2:44:52have won two nobels frankly uh for their
2:44:54other work on Vision but um one thing
2:44:56that they missed however was something
2:44:59that you mentioned and is worth
2:45:01highlighting again which is that the
2:45:03brain maintains the capacity for immense
2:45:06plasticity throughout the entire
2:45:08lifespan that's absolutely clear the
2:45:10conditions change from early to later in
2:45:12life but your specific situation really
2:45:14highlights that and it's something I'd
2:45:16really like to um talk about for a few
2:45:18minutes if if you're willing um as you
2:45:20mentioned you experienced a stroke um
2:45:23and perhaps uh it was aware to some but
2:45:27perhaps not all especially the people
2:45:28just listening to this podcast and who
2:45:30are not watching on video that um your
2:45:33shirt while very nicely designed um in
2:45:36uh in its original state also includes
2:45:37some unique stitching so maybe you could
2:45:40share with us uh what and for those
2:45:42listening there's a there's a jagged
2:45:44line of stitching that um extends from
2:45:47uh Robert's uh left short sleeve to his
2:45:50midline to where the buttons on his
2:45:51shirt are and from the from his right
2:45:53short sleeve also to the midline offset
2:45:56from one another these um this is the
2:45:57sort of stitching that looks like
2:45:59perhaps I had been at the sewing machine
2:46:01um and not somebody was uh skilled but
2:46:04they did a good job basically putting it
2:46:05back together why are those stitches in
2:46:07your shirt tell us about the stroke and
2:46:09let's let's talk about neuroplasticity
2:46:11it could also seem like a fashion
2:46:13statement you know but it really it
2:46:15isn't um well it was May of 2018 it was
2:46:20my birthday and my wife gave me this
2:46:22shirt I have a love of plaids it's like
2:46:25I don't know why I just love patterns
2:46:27and plaids must be like some Scotch part
2:46:30of me some ancestor thing but I love
2:46:32plaids C can I interrupt you just
2:46:34briefly forgive me everyone's going to
2:46:35get upset that interrupt do you know
2:46:36that there is a fundamental circuit in
2:46:39your visual cortex designed to detect
2:46:42plaid patterns no I did not yes and we
2:46:44can talk about why that is it's tightly
2:46:46tightly linked to your ability to
2:46:47perceive motion really yeah and we can
2:46:50go over it some other time but yeah so
2:46:52we'll talk about just as a cue so okay
2:46:54yes back to your birthday okay so she
2:46:56gave me a plaid shirt knowing how much I
2:46:58loved it and I love this shirt I love
2:47:00the colors in it etc etc and then two
2:47:04months three months later August 17 2018
2:47:08I was driving my car she was with me I
2:47:11was pulling out into traffic I started
2:47:12driving and suddenly she's saying pull
2:47:14over Robert pull over go why why I can
2:47:17drive I'm fine and then suddenly
2:47:20everything started getting really
2:47:22strange everything looked strange my
2:47:25voice didn't sound the same and she was
2:47:29like freaking out but she was actually
2:47:31fairly calm which was amazing I was
2:47:33undergoing a stroke I had a blood clot
2:47:35that was blocking the bra blood flow to
2:47:38my brain I actually at one point got out
2:47:40of the car like I was I don't know what
2:47:43the hell I was thinking and then she
2:47:45pulled me back in and then the rest goes
2:47:47blank and I had had some weird
2:47:50Sensations that still remain with me
2:47:52because essentially I was on the verge
2:47:55of dying because blood not flowing to
2:47:58your brain is basically the end of you
2:48:01right unless something happens very
2:48:03quickly and she either that or you're
2:48:06can to get severe brain damage so she
2:48:08called 911 right away she recognized
2:48:10something my whole face was looking
2:48:13funny and they got there I was
2:48:16unconscious and essentially they took
2:48:18the his shirt and I just scissored the
2:48:20thing in half and took it off my head
2:48:23and then they intubated me I believe in
2:48:26my hip area to get something the blood
2:48:28clot was in my neck and they were able
2:48:30to free it up and they rushed me to the
2:48:33hospital and I'm unconscious and then um
2:48:37I wake up and I'm in a gurnie in the
2:48:40hospital and I don't for a moment I'm
2:48:43thinking maybe I'm dead because I'm
2:48:45lying in a gurnie and I almost feel like
2:48:47I'm in a coffin I don't know what what's
2:48:49going on and I have all of these weird
2:48:53Sensations and I I tell people we're so
2:48:57curious about death we think about death
2:48:59a lot and you know is it final what does
2:49:03it mean we really should pay attention
2:49:05to
2:49:06dying dying is actually much more
2:49:09interesting in some ways than death and
2:49:12people who have died go through a
2:49:14process if it if it's long enough and
2:49:17people who have had near-death
2:49:18experience experiences like I do have
2:49:20gone through that process of dying and
2:49:21have come back to life and in the
2:49:24process of
2:49:25dying strange things happen to the brain
2:49:29right so particularly with a stroke or
2:49:31something like that where blood stops
2:49:33flowing to your oxygen stops flowing to
2:49:35your brain you have kind of visions and
2:49:38things that you might think are
2:49:41hallucinations but that later seem like
2:49:44actually you are actually glimpsing the
2:49:46reality as opposed to the illus that the
2:49:49brain creates so I've written about this
2:49:52in my new book but um my idea of the
2:49:56brain is that it creates endless series
2:49:57of Illusions for you it creates this
2:50:00seamless version of reality the sense of
2:50:03a self the sense of a continuous self
2:50:06Through Time right it creates a linear
2:50:09sense of time progressions it creates
2:50:12colors it creates a world that visually
2:50:14you can seems familiar and etc etc but
2:50:17it's all illusion it's all a
2:50:19construction right images come into your
2:50:23brain and they're not organized in any
2:50:25way and the Brain organizes in a way
2:50:27that you can understand it well when
2:50:29you're dying all of that scrambles up
2:50:32and you actually are seeing something
2:50:33else so I saw for instance that I really
2:50:37don't have a self that it doesn't really
2:50:40actually exist that I'm and the image
2:50:43that came to my mind because it was in
2:50:46sitting in that gurnie was a weird feel
2:50:48feeling
2:50:49of like I can almost not explain it but
2:50:54it's as if you took an image of
2:50:55something real in the world and you
2:50:57completely scrambled it up and it was
2:50:59all wavy and you couldn't see what
2:51:01exactly it was to me that was the image
2:51:04I had of the self there are like 50
2:51:07different selves inside of you that are
2:51:09all competing and you think there's just
2:51:12one and you think it's consistent but
2:51:13there's not it's an illusion the self is
2:51:16literally an illusion that your brain
2:51:17constructs
2:51:19when you're dying you see these things
2:51:21when you're dying you see other things
2:51:23like that you see that time is something
2:51:26very weird so I had experience of when I
2:51:29got out of the car and I got pulled in I
2:51:32thought like 10 seconds had passed my
2:51:36wife told me no those those was like 10
2:51:38minutes I had no sense of time
2:51:41everything was scrambled and so it was
2:51:45very very El it taught me so much things
2:51:47that I can I can barely even expressed
2:51:49now I'm always now thinking of strange
2:51:52things that come to me because my brain
2:51:54was damaged it made me realize that the
2:51:58brain creates everything so I can't
2:52:02communicate with my hand my fingers I
2:52:05can't communicate my brain can't
2:52:07communicate with my leg right so you
2:52:10think that walking and writing and
2:52:12handling things is just your your body
2:52:15operating a certain way it's your brain
2:52:17telling you how to move these different
2:52:19things when that brain stops functioning
2:52:22you realize how much your brain
2:52:23determines everything it all starts
2:52:26there and when there's damage to your
2:52:28brain your whole thinking Alters Etc not
2:52:32to mention how you look at life itself
2:52:34after something like that so it was a
2:52:37terrible experience it's ruined so many
2:52:40things that I loved in life but it's
2:52:42given me an awful lot as well in return
2:52:45that I could go on for hours and talk
2:52:47about because
2:52:49it was the most powerful experience of
2:52:50my
2:52:52life when you were going through your
2:52:56reemergence to Consciousness in the
2:52:59hospital did you feel as if you were
2:53:02observing these multiple versions of
2:53:04yourself um maybe a different way to
2:53:06phrase it is did you feel you were sort
2:53:09of behind the circuit board that is your
2:53:12brain observing how you normally
2:53:13function and you could see multiple
2:53:15versions of self or was it something
2:53:17else where you sort of outside of your
2:53:19body and brain I think it was more
2:53:20outside of my body and brain I also had
2:53:23this other thing that happened
2:53:25where I you know sometimes you can't
2:53:28reme your memory might be playing tricks
2:53:30on you so I've also have to realize that
2:53:32maybe I'm not remembering exactly what
2:53:34happened or that I've since translated
2:53:37in a different way so that's a caveat
2:53:38here and I'm aware of it but I had this
2:53:42Vision that I was dead at first when I
2:53:45first became conscious and that I was up
2:53:47in the sky and I was looking down and my
2:53:50mother and my wife were talking and was
2:53:53like over my grave I suppose and I had
2:53:56this feeling huh everything's okay I'm
2:53:59gone but life goes on they're they're
2:54:01doing fine it's okay right so I don't
2:54:05know about that sense of self whether it
2:54:07was like I'm aware of it happening but I
2:54:10have a feeling it was something from the
2:54:13outside I don't really know the answer
2:54:15to that because it's very confused the
2:54:17other feeling I had was life when I was
2:54:21having the stroke was life draining out
2:54:23of me and my bones getting softer and
2:54:26softer and softer and I can't really
2:54:29logically explain that the feeling of
2:54:31Bones softening up and
2:54:33dissolving but for weeks and months
2:54:36afterwards I could access that feeling
2:54:38of my bones dissolving Etc it was a
2:54:40feeling
2:54:41of all your energy draining out of you
2:54:44and you're dying literally so um reading
2:54:48books about near-death experiences cuz
2:54:50that's a lot of what I'm big part of my
2:54:52next book God is it's fascinating
2:54:55there's so many interesting things to go
2:54:57in because it teaches us so
2:54:59much I'm so glad a you survived your
2:55:03stroke B that your mental faculties he's
2:55:06not more grateful than I am I tell I
2:55:08probably not but still very grateful so
2:55:10there it just um illustrates how
2:55:12grateful you must be um B that you've
2:55:16maintained if not grown your mental fact
2:55:18faculties I mean you seem extremely
2:55:20sharp um I promise you you're not
2:55:21missing a beat uh you know one always
2:55:23wonders right actually one of the most
2:55:25common fears people have is that somehow
2:55:26they're losing their mind or their
2:55:27memory and people aren't and they aren't
2:55:29aware of it you know you hear I have
2:55:31family members who have asked that if
2:55:33they ever start to exhibit signs of
2:55:35severe dementia that I um well put an
2:55:38end to them which I won't um that's not
2:55:40my place in this world um but I think
2:55:42it's a common fear among uh among people
2:55:45but you're still extremely sharp uh and
2:55:47thank good for it and you mentioned that
2:55:50um while you've lost certain abilities
2:55:52that new appreciation and new abilities
2:55:55have surfaced um could you perhaps share
2:55:58what some of those are and and what they
2:56:00mean to you um because I think that when
2:56:02one hears about somebody having a stroke
2:56:04we tend to focus on what's what's
2:56:06lacking but clearly this has been a
2:56:08transformative experience also in
2:56:10positive ways well uh I had to confront
2:56:13some of my own demons I had to confront
2:56:15the sense that um I expected things out
2:56:19of life and here they're taken away and
2:56:23I'm I'm I'm kind of ungrateful for being
2:56:25alive and here I'm pissed off that it
2:56:28takes me 10 minutes to tie my shoes and
2:56:30I can't really button my shirt I had to
2:56:32learn what really matters and to have
2:56:34patience and stuff the other thing
2:56:38was I used to love hiking I was very
2:56:40physically active and I'm sitting at my
2:56:42window in my office and see people
2:56:44running up and down bicycling walking
2:56:46their dogs God I'm so envious if I had
2:56:51if I could walk a dog right now I'd be
2:56:53the happiest person alive but then I go
2:56:56through a thought process which maybe
2:56:58isn't completely healthy which is
2:57:00they're not aware of how wonderful it is
2:57:03just to walk a dog but I'm aware of it
2:57:07so when I go out in my backyard and I
2:57:09can't walk and I'm seeing like I know
2:57:12this is going to sound really trically
2:57:15and sentimental but I see you know
2:57:18butterflies or things in my garden I'm
2:57:21like wow that's incredible you know
2:57:24things like that that I I couldn't
2:57:26appreciate before because I'm I'm
2:57:29sedentary and I can't move I have to
2:57:32suddenly pay attention to what's around
2:57:33me not take it for granted and find and
2:57:37suck all the pleasure out of it that I
2:57:39can so now when I sit at my desk to
2:57:43write my new book it's 4 hours because
2:57:46that's all I can stand maybe three
2:57:49sometimes those 4 hours are like such
2:57:52Bliss for me I truly appreciate it now
2:57:55because I know that my brain was almost
2:57:57gone right so it means so much for me
2:58:00and to just be alive you know is is is
2:58:04is just a wondrous experience I have a
2:58:07chapter in my new book called awaken to
2:58:10the strangeness of being alive and it's
2:58:13about the fact that if you think about
2:58:16it and how unlikely it is that we humans
2:58:19evolved at all even that we even exist
2:58:23all the bottlenecks and evolution that
2:58:24we had to pass through including The
2:58:27Disappearance of the dinosaurs and the
2:58:28emergence of manimals but there are 20
2:58:30other huge bottlenecks throughout the
2:58:32history of evolution we had to pass
2:58:34through all of those we nearly went
2:58:36extinct 80,000 years ago from some virus
2:58:39that infected there were only 8,000
2:58:41people humans on the
2:58:43planet all these different things and
2:58:45here we are with zoom meetings etc etc
2:58:48it's like the strangest story you can
2:58:50ever it's beyond science fiction but
2:58:53nobody thinks about it nobody sits down
2:58:55and goes God I'm alive if you went back
2:58:59to the chain of people that had to
2:59:01connect and have children leading up to
2:59:05your parents the unlikeliness of you
2:59:07ever being born is astronomical I mean
2:59:10unless my science is all wrong you know
2:59:1370,000 generations of people meeting etc
2:59:16etc finally ending at your DNA I mean
2:59:20unless I'm missing something it's it's
2:59:22pretty
2:59:23unlikely but nobody thinks about it well
2:59:26I certainly think about it now
2:59:28because I almost died I have nothing
2:59:30else to think about that's I have to
2:59:32entertain my brain the way Milton
2:59:34Ericson had to entertain himself by
2:59:35observing people so it's taken a lot
2:59:38away from me I can't swim I'm writing my
2:59:42my recumbent bike which I love and
2:59:4580-year-old grandmothers are zipping by
2:59:47me and God damn it how awful I'm so
2:59:50envious I'm so my insecurities all well
2:59:53up but then I realize hey I'm I'm like
2:59:56I'm I'm like on a boat I'm sailing it's
2:59:57wonderful I'm outside you know I have to
3:00:00go through these processes but I think
3:00:02it's developed me in some way that's
3:00:04that's in the end very positive sounds
3:00:07like you've had to adjust to a new frame
3:00:09rate on life like that the the old movie
3:00:11had a certain frame rate this movie has
3:00:13a certain frame rate but that within
3:00:15that frame rate there are gifts to be
3:00:18that you certainly missed in your prior
3:00:20version of self is that is that a yeah
3:00:23but also like I tell people this I
3:00:26totally took my life for granted I I was
3:00:30swimming all this time I was fantastic I
3:00:33was bicycling I was traveling but I
3:00:36never sat back and thought wow this is
3:00:38wonderful how grateful it is could be
3:00:39taken away from you I tell people don't
3:00:42do that to yourself I try and teach them
3:00:44it can be taken away from you tomorrow
3:00:46when you're out walking the think of me
3:00:49think of me that can't walk the dog and
3:00:51appreciate those things which I didn't
3:00:53appreciate so I try and help people in
3:00:56that way when I can you
3:00:58know I think uh critical message is also
3:01:02to inspire a sense of urgency in people
3:01:05you know I think people hear a sense of
3:01:07urgency and they go oh God I'm already
3:01:09under so much pressure life's so hard
3:01:10but we're not talking about a sense of
3:01:12urgency to take on more of what life has
3:01:14to offer uh I think we're talking about
3:01:17a sense of urgency
3:01:18to find one's purpose which takes work
3:01:22and is an ongoing process but to really
3:01:25get out of modes of apathy laziness um
3:01:30languishing and to start as you've
3:01:33described it paying deeper attention I
3:01:36mean this is a a concept that was super
3:01:40important for me to hear about and I
3:01:42learned about it from you was how do you
3:01:44get yourself out of a rut you start
3:01:46paying deeper attention to the things
3:01:48around you and inside you and um perhaps
3:01:52not coincidentally you referred to that
3:01:54as quote death ground yeah so um it's
3:02:00what it's a strategy from my book I
3:02:03wrote wrote a book on strategy my
3:02:04version of The Art of War it's called 33
3:02:07Strategies of War but it's really about
3:02:09strategy the Strategic thinking it's
3:02:12inspired from sunu the great Chinese
3:02:14strategist but it has vast philosophy
3:02:17iCal
3:02:19implications the idea
3:02:22is you can almost think of it like
3:02:24barometric pressure when necessity is
3:02:28pressing in on you like your back is
3:02:30against the wall like you have to get
3:02:32something done and there's like this
3:02:35pressure around you you find energy in
3:02:37there that you never believed before
3:02:39William James talks about this when he
3:02:41talks about getting a second wind he
3:02:43explains it very eloquently when you
3:02:45feel like your life's in danger
3:02:48suddenly you can you can leap over
3:02:50things that you never could leap over
3:02:52before so sunsu says put an Army on
3:02:55death ground and it will fight and until
3:02:58it's it wins meaning put an army with
3:03:01its back to the ocean or a back to the
3:03:04mountain and it's either win or die
3:03:07they're going to fight 10 times harder
3:03:09you're going to find the energy in you
3:03:10that you normally lack when death is
3:03:13facing you in the face or urgency or
3:03:15deadlines or people pressing in on you
3:03:18when that barometric pressure loosens up
3:03:21and there's none of it you think you
3:03:23have all the time in the world you get
3:03:24nothing
3:03:25done wow man I'm
3:03:2823 I've got all these years ahead of me
3:03:31I'm going to figure it out right I'm not
3:03:33going to die I got 50 70 80 years ahead
3:03:36of me no you don't that pressure now is
3:03:39gone and you're wasting time you're
3:03:41you're you're doing all sorts of things
3:03:43that aren't leading to any kind of skill
3:03:44you're not learning or anything you need
3:03:47to put yourself on death ground you need
3:03:49to feel that barometric pressure which
3:03:51is the actual reality the actual reality
3:03:54is you could die tomorrow you could have
3:03:56a stroke tomorrow you you could be fired
3:03:59tomorrow everything could fall apart you
3:04:01need to have that sense of urgency now
3:04:04because that's the reality you're
3:04:06fooling yourself by thinking you have
3:04:07all of this time and so when you feel
3:04:10that
3:04:11pressure suddenly you can move mountains
3:04:14you you have energy your life you you
3:04:17know you just have Focus Etc
3:04:20neurologically everything Clicks in you
3:04:23know and people who've had that
3:04:26experience where they've where they felt
3:04:28like the the ship was going under and
3:04:30they better get their act together and
3:04:32survive they talk about all these
3:04:34physical processes I have a story in my
3:04:37new book I I hope I'm not boring you
3:04:39here with all
3:04:40no quite the opposite about a mountain
3:04:44climber who
3:04:46um he he he was climbing this mountain
3:04:49by himself and he was having a great
3:04:51time but there was a storm coming and he
3:04:53had to get down and he suddenly fell and
3:04:56he cut his leg open massively and there
3:05:00was like a branch sticking in it and he
3:05:02he broke all these bones and he was he
3:05:04was going to die he was on a Ledge he
3:05:07could see that it was getting dark and
3:05:09and storm clouds were were massing there
3:05:11was going to be this was in the Rocky
3:05:13Mountains he was alone and suddenly he
3:05:17met managed to get up on his two
3:05:19feet and he can't explain how but all of
3:05:22this energy all this adrenaline started
3:05:24flowing in him and he said he was like a
3:05:26mountain goat he was like going down the
3:05:29ledge he he jumped he was able to kind
3:05:31of get down to another ledge he he got
3:05:33it he got out of it and for the for the
3:05:35next 20 years he was haunted by how did
3:05:39that happen I want that feeling again
3:05:41because it was actually the most
3:05:43ecstatic feeling I had energy that I
3:05:45never suspected in myself and so he
3:05:48tries everything to get that feeling
3:05:51back he tries climbing other mounts he
3:05:53tries going to to Mount Everest he tries
3:05:55and it doesn't come back and finally he
3:05:58kind of figures out the formula for it
3:06:01and why it happened he studies a lot of
3:06:03Neuroscience it's a great book I'm using
3:06:05it in my new book it's called bone bone
3:06:07games it's very interesting book a lot
3:06:10of Science in it um and he got the
3:06:14feeling back in a smaller sense
3:06:18but it was the feeling of your life is
3:06:22in danger I better get my act together
3:06:24or it's the end and suddenly adrenaline
3:06:28dopamine all the other things were
3:06:29occurring in him and he got and and he
3:06:31found that energy so um that's that's
3:06:35the ultimate kind of death ground right
3:06:38there the human will to live is truly
3:06:41incredible and so now I have to
3:06:44say as I said before I'm so grateful
3:06:48that your stroke didn't take you out
3:06:51because clearly there's still so much in
3:06:54there and you're continuing to share uh
3:06:57what is really
3:07:00exquisitly useful knowledge oh thank you
3:07:03it's just it's just kind of astonishing
3:07:05to me I started off today's discussion
3:07:08expressing my gratitude for what you've
3:07:11already done for my life and for the
3:07:12lives of so many other people through
3:07:13your books you know it's clear you've
3:07:16been on a a for foraging exploration and
3:07:20that foraging for organizing and
3:07:22communicating information mainly in the
3:07:25form of written books but also online
3:07:27content you have a terrific YouTube
3:07:29channel which I subscribe to and follow
3:07:31and um and listen to um with wrapped
3:07:35attention uh and the other venues with
3:07:37which you share information including
3:07:39this one today are really truly valuable
3:07:42and appreciated so I I want to say on
3:07:46behalf of myself and
3:07:48um for those that have known you in your
3:07:49work for a number of years but also for
3:07:51the many people that are now sure to um
3:07:54know who you are and what you're about
3:07:55that it's just so clear that like this
3:07:57stuff comes from the heart and that it
3:07:59whatever early seed planted this you
3:08:01know um that we're all grateful for and
3:08:05better off as a consequence of that that
3:08:07seed so uh I could make this list very
3:08:11very long with the the number of
3:08:13specific ways in which you've um
3:08:15improved the journey through life and
3:08:17made it clearer I mean you know life is
3:08:20certainly can be hard but it also can be
3:08:22really confusing and I feel that the the
3:08:26Robert Green uh road map even though
3:08:28it's but one road map is an extremely
3:08:30valuable map to have and to use
3:08:34certainly has been for me so um just an
3:08:37enormous thank you Robert thanks for
3:08:40sharing today and thanks for all you do
3:08:41and all that you're still doing and sure
3:08:43to do in the future oh thank you I I
3:08:46wish I could find the word for
3:08:47explaining the kind of weird emotions
3:08:49that I'm feeling when I hear that there
3:08:51isn't maybe Yiddish maybe if for CLT or
3:08:54something I don't know but thank you
3:08:56yeah well we'll have to have you back
3:08:59here again uh when your next book comes
3:09:01out um can't wait but we will wait okay
3:09:05yeah hopefully I'm still around I I I'm
3:09:08confident you will be okay okay good
3:09:10thank you come back thanks very much I
3:09:12hope I will thank you for joining me for
3:09:14today's discussion with Robert Green I
3:09:16hope you found conversation to be as
3:09:18stimulating as I did if you're learning
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