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A Pedagogy of the Oppressed: Reflections on Liberation For Students and Educators — Transcript

by Robert Kennedy · 12,121 words · 2,056 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00is fundamentally intertwined.
0:02So, before we dive in, a quick note to
0:04the audience. Feel free to unmute your
0:07microphone at any point or drop a
0:09question
0:10or your thoughts in the chat.
0:12And at any point at any point through
0:15the conversation. So, welcome Chris.
0:17How's it going?
0:18>> Hey Shawn, we're doing all right.
0:20>> Very cool.
0:21>> Friday afternoon, so I got to put
0:23everything else about my job away for
0:25the week and it's just you and me and
0:27whoever else is here.
0:29>> Well, I'm happy to liberate you, Chris,
0:30from from your king duties.
0:34Yeah.
0:35So, okay, to begin, um
0:38I thought that we would take a look at
0:40the the classroom experience and the
0:42banking model. This is the a model that
0:44uh Freire critiques.
0:46>> Um
0:47>> Freire critiques the banking model of
0:49education where teachers treat students
0:51as empty accounts to be filled with
0:54facts. Right? As he writes, in the
0:56banking model of education, knowledge is
0:59a gift bestowed by those who consider
1:02themselves knowledgeable
1:04upon those whom they consider to know
1:06nothing.
1:07So, my first question is, when students
1:10spend years in the classroom simply
1:12memorizing information to pass exams,
1:16how does the passive learning
1:17environment sow the seeds of societal
1:20oppression
1:21ultimately shaping flawed political and
1:24economic structures?
1:26And then, how does the banking model
1:28benefit the people in power outside and
1:32even perhaps inside of educational
1:34systems?
1:36>> Oh, so a softball right out of the gate.
1:38Yeah, first pitch. Um
1:39>> Yeah, I'm going easy. Going easy.
1:41>> So, I think when when we talk about
1:43education, there's sort of, you know,
1:44two things that students are arguably
1:46learning. You know, they're learning
1:48knowledge, information, facts
1:50or they're learning, you know,
1:51attitudes, skills, behaviors, modes of
1:53comportment. And I think to to answer
1:55the first part of your question, the
1:57a a a recipient passive banking model of
2:00education
2:01is the perfect and absolutely perfect
2:04training ground for passive and de facto
2:07oppressible citizens. You know, you're
2:10you're conditioned to be an environment
2:12where you you are the recipient, you are
2:14the lesser than, somebody else is the
2:15expert, somebody else is in charge, and
2:18you essentially do what they say. So,
2:21yeah, that that model of education
2:23functions exactly as it's designed to
2:26function, to to train future oppressees.
2:31>> Excellent. Yeah, and you're it's sort of
2:33implicit in your answer, but anything
2:35more specific on how it benefits uh
2:38classes that of power outside and
2:41perhaps inside educational systems?
2:43>> Well, it it it maintains the status quo
2:45in terms of structures of power. The
2:47those in power retain their power and
2:49are justified in the retention of that
2:50power even in the in even in the minds
2:52of the oppressed who are trained to
2:55realize, okay, there there are these
2:57people that know and they can tell the
2:59rest of us what they do because they
3:00know, and that's just the way of the
3:02world.
3:04>> Yeah, there's it's it's normalized,
3:06yeah.
3:07Yeah, and it's yeah, okay, excellent. Um
3:10so, we teach this thing called
3:12humanities, right? History, philosophy,
3:14literature, etc.
3:17Um do traditional assessments uh such as
3:20exams, quizzes, and rote exercises serve
3:23any legitimate purpose
3:25or are they purely products of the
3:27banking model?
3:29>> I I wouldn't want to make any absolute
3:32statements on this, but they they
3:34certainly lean and tilt heavily in the
3:36direction of of the latter.
3:39That I and I think we're realizing this,
3:41if if there's a silver lining to any of
3:43the, you know, the post-COVID and the
3:45current assault on higher ed, to this
3:46whole environment that we're living in
3:48now, if there's a silver lining to it,
3:50it's forcing us as educators to ask, you
3:52know, what is it that we think we're
3:53doing? What what is education really
3:55about? And I think increasingly we're
3:57all being reminded it's it's more about
3:59the process than the product. And for
4:03time immemorial, all assessments have
4:06been based on an assessment of a final
4:08product. It's It's the final product,
4:10you know, be it the test or the essay
4:12that's evaluated as evidence of
4:14something having happened in the mind or
4:16experience of the student.
4:18And a lot of that is being upset right
4:20now. Uh generative AI is contributing to
4:22this upsetting as well. And so if if
4:25there's a silver lining, I I like the
4:26fact that it's forcing a kind of long
4:28overdue reckoning that what we really
4:30care about is not the outcome, that
4:32which is typically assessed, but the
4:34process leading up to the production of
4:36that outcome.
4:38Which is infinitely more difficult to
4:39assess, I think we need to put on the
4:41table immediately, but not impossible.
4:44>> Yeah, that that Yeah, it's hard to
4:46measure. Uh I think uh we'll get into
4:50what uh Fiera offers as an alternative
4:53within education, but
4:55yeah, that is a particular challenge to
4:57anyone in education. I I think
5:00particularly to people outside of the
5:02humanities. So, if you're teaching
5:03mathematics and chemistry,
5:06uh
5:06uh it's possible to apply Fiera's model,
5:09but uh it it's much more accessible
5:11within the humanities. But, yeah, how do
5:13you measure it?
5:14>> Yeah.
5:15>> If you can't measure it, does it matter?
5:16>> Yeah, I mean and and also trickier for
5:18those in the humanities because what we
5:19tend to be concerned about is what's
5:21going on
5:22in the mind and inner life of the
5:25student.
5:26Not and
5:27and we can't watch that. We We have no
5:29immediate access to that in order to,
5:31you know, measure or assess it.
5:34So, we've relied, you know, like like on
5:36a crutch with the observable,
5:38produceable artifact that is at the the
5:41end of that process.
5:43>> Okay. Yeah, and that is uh where I think
5:48Fiera's model can actually empower
5:50educators because, okay, let's just get
5:53to that. Uh dialogue versus lecture. Uh
5:57Fiera points out, uh quote, "Through
5:59dialogue, the teacher of the students
6:03and the student of the teacher cease to
6:06exist
6:07and a new term emerges teacher dash
6:12student with students dash teachers
6:15which is to say
6:17true education happens through
6:19conversation
6:21where teachers and students learn with
6:23each other not at each other
6:26so
6:28to explore this here's a question in a
6:30traditional class the teacher talks and
6:34the student listens
6:36what is the philosophical difference
6:38between a teacher talking to students
6:40versus talking with them
6:44>> I think
6:48yeah practically there's probably a
6:50number of ways coming at this and I'm
6:51actually working through a lot of this
6:52now cuz I'm designing a class that I
6:54want to teach in the spring so I'm
6:56trying to you know not betray my
6:58Freirean
6:59pedigree
7:00but I think it it starts with the
7:02probably with the first step on on the
7:04part of the teacher and I think this is
7:05something that all of us probably fall
7:07into instinctively unconsciously
7:10you know as as the teacher you
7:13you sort of believe rightly or wrongly I
7:16have something that this student needs I
7:19have something this student needs to
7:20know or slightly more richly I have a
7:22skill that this student needs to develop
7:25and what Freire would propose is okay
7:27all right you stop there and back up a
7:29step
7:30have you asked the students what they
7:32need
7:34and and they may be right or wrong about
7:35this cuz a lot of folks would say well
7:37they don't know what they need that's
7:39why they need a teacher and Freire would
7:40say hit pause step back of it what why
7:43don't you ask them what they think they
7:44need before assuming that they don't
7:46know what they need
7:48so it's a it's a shift in orientation
7:50that has to happen I'd say at at state
7:52step zero not somewhere down the road
7:56>> what would that look like in a classroom
7:57cuz
7:58uh
8:00that that's one thing to say it but that
8:01is an
8:02incredible novel idea in practice
8:05>> no And this is something that Freire put
8:07into practice because he had the
8:09latitude to do whatever he wanted. But
8:11yeah, this is exactly one of the
8:12logistical nuts I'm trying to crack
8:15because if you if you do this right,
8:17you know, for the class I'm planning on
8:18teaching in the spring, I would show up
8:21on the first day of class without a
8:23syllabus, without any assigned readings,
8:25without any assignments prepared,
8:26without any topics, and simply engage
8:28the students in dialogue and through the
8:30generation of themes,
8:32we would co-construct a relevant
8:35curriculum.
8:36You know, me obviously knowing more than
8:37them about some things so I could guide
8:39this process.
8:40But logistically, what does that look
8:41like, you know, for for me to do it as
8:44one faculty member? Try and scale that
8:46to an entire program, to an entire
8:47college. We we've got some real
8:49practical challenges.
8:51But if we can get on the same page
8:52theoretically, um the necessity of
8:55embracing those challenges, I think,
8:57might push us into the mess.
9:01>> Wow, yeah.
9:03I'm just thinking of uh type A type
9:05personalities in education. That sounds
9:07probably ang- very angst-ridden for for
9:10people out there, right? Because uh
9:12yeah, there's a lot of preparation that
9:13goes into putting in a course and
9:16um I don't think you're suggesting
9:18abandon all preparation, but yeah,
9:20that's
9:21>> It would be it would be a very very
9:22different kind of preparation.
9:25And having things and this is sort of
9:27what I'm toying with for this spring
9:29semester course, having at the ready
9:31sort of a bank of kinds of resources,
9:35kinds of texts, kinds of assignments
9:37that in in all my years of teaching and
9:40in all my {quote} wisdom, I suspect
9:43would be able to respond to the types of
9:45themes students are likely to generate,
9:47but al- always being willing to be
9:49caught by surprise. You know, and that's
9:51and that's something I think a lot of
9:53faculty would love to lean into, but are
9:55prevented from doing so for a lot of
9:56reasons. Some of them emanating from the
9:59state government level.
10:01That how free are we to depart from our
10:03course syllabus
10:04if students start manifesting an
10:06interest in an offshoot of the main
10:09theme of the course, You know, still
10:11relevant but taking us in a direction
10:13that the faculty member hadn't
10:14anticipated.
10:16>> Mhm.
10:17Yeah.
10:19Um
10:20uh community colleges uh college
10:22students come from all walks of life and
10:25have real-world uh job and life
10:28experiences.
10:30How does Freire's idea of dialogue honor
10:33what students already know?
10:37>> Yeah, the the focus is I think it
10:39implicitly honors it and hopefully
10:41explicitly so that the student can
10:43appreciate that this type of dialogic
10:46translation transaction honors it. That
10:48again, Freire would have us start with,
10:51you know, the student and this is the
10:52the problem-posing alternative to the
10:54banking model.
10:55The banking model is I I know what you
10:57need to know, sit down, open up, and I
11:00will feed it to you.
11:01And then when prompted, if you can
11:03regurgitate what I fed you, A plus, you
11:05pass the course.
11:07Uh Freire would have us begin with
11:08simply asking the students or student
11:11teachers, as it were, um what are you
11:13worried about right now?
11:15What are what are the actual problems in
11:17your life that you're dealing with? Uh
11:20and we can make this even more
11:21immediately relevant. What are the kinds
11:22of problems you're dealing with that
11:23might prevent you from attending class
11:25or finishing your education? Start with
11:27those concrete problems and I would bet
11:30you, you know, one to one,
11:33any one of those problems could be spun
11:35out into, okay, in order to address this
11:37problem, we're going to need to do some
11:39history. So, let's do some applied
11:41history.
11:42In order to flesh out the problem, we
11:44might need to study some political
11:45science, sociology. We might need to
11:47venture into psychology or God forbid
11:49philosophy.
11:51But to let the the actual concrete
11:52problems faced by students generate the
11:55themes that are then located in existing
11:59disciplinary discourses rather than
12:01starting the other way around, starting
12:03with the academic discourse and then
12:05trying to apply it,
12:07you know, like a cookie-cutter to
12:08whatever
12:10practical problems might happen to be on
12:12offer that day.
12:15>> Yeah.
12:17So, I
12:19I'm just thinking of practical
12:21applications of this. Uh
12:24I
12:25you know, typically a syllabus is chap
12:27you know, first week chapter one,
12:29chapter I mean, are we suggesting to
12:33uh
12:34throw out the textbook, throw out
12:36PowerPoints?
12:38Um
12:40>> I think it it helps to have those things
12:42handy.
12:43>> Yeah.
12:43>> But but realizing that they might may
12:46not actually be called for.
12:48>> Okay.
12:48>> Yeah, this isn't to do away with all
12:50resources, but yeah, think about the
12:51structure of a syllabus and the the
12:53message that that sends to a student. Uh
12:56not only do I know
12:57what I need to teach you, I know what
12:59you need to know,
13:01uh I am dictating the pace of your
13:03learning it as well. You you will know
13:06this by the end of week two, and then
13:09you will know this by the end of week
13:10three. That this is how your learning,
13:13you know, your in scare quotes
13:14obviously, is going to occur for you.
13:18So, it's it again, it's really a a
13:20diabolically
13:22passive oppressive process that we've
13:24sort of institutionalized in the very
13:26syllabus itself.
13:29>> Yeah. Anything that would be
13:30interesting. Uh what do you suppose
13:33given that you're developing a course
13:35that you're trying to really apply
13:37Friere's model with, what do assignments
13:39and assessments
13:40look like under Friere's problem-posing
13:43model?
13:44>> Do not know yet. This is this is a
13:46real-time project that just just
13:47occurred to me. I was trying to think of
13:48a way that I could get back into the
13:50classroom another time. Came up with
13:52one, came up with the idea for a large
13:54theme for a class that I think I can get
13:56students engaged in in terms of, you
13:58know, relevant problems in and for their
14:01lives. So, yeah, at this point, I'm just
14:03trying to develop a bank of potential
14:06both fiction and non-fiction
14:08uh reading resources that we might want
14:10to pull from if something comes up in
14:12class like, "Oh, hey, by the way,
14:14so-and-so has written a short essay on
14:15that or that very issue is highlighted
14:17in this short story from 50 years ago.
14:20Uh then when it comes to assessments,
14:23yeah, I'll have to do some real thinking
14:24about what
14:27what is it that my students want and
14:29need out of this class? You know, trying
14:32to the best of my ability to bracket my
14:34assumptions about the answer for that
14:35question before actually engaging with
14:38them.
14:40So, yeah, stay stay tuned. I hope to
14:42have a better answer by about the middle
14:45of January.
14:47>> Okay. Well, I might come tap on your
14:48shoulder um in desperate need. Uh
14:52So, the chat is going wild right now,
14:54Chris, for some reason. So, let's uh
14:55address what's going on in the chat.
14:57>> Oh, it's a bunch probably a bunch of
14:58humanists in there.
14:59>> Yeah, we'll see. We'll see. Uh James,
15:03I'm I'm assuming this is James
15:04Sickamore, a resident philosopher as
15:06well. Uh given this description of
15:09problem-posing dial uh di- dialect
15:13dialogue, um quote, "Education, what
15:16happens to the designation of teacher
15:19and student?"
15:22>> Yeah, and Freire Freire's
15:24take on this, and I think that it's more
15:26than a pithy quip, is that the the
15:29teacher becomes a teacher-student,
15:31you know, learning from the students,
15:34and the student becomes a
15:34student-teacher, actually teaching the
15:36teacher.
15:38You know, the teacher actually learning
15:40what a student needs, about a student's
15:42life experiences, what assets that
15:43student might actually be bringing to
15:45the course as opposed to the deficits
15:47the teacher thinks beforehand they need
15:49to address.
15:50Uh the student, conversely, becomes a
15:53kind of student-teacher,
15:55you know, teaching the teacher about
15:57what life is actually really like
16:00outside the classroom, the kinds of
16:01problems that we hope
16:04our education will help us solve.
16:08But again, starting with the problem and
16:10developing solutions rather than
16:12starting with a kind of cookie-cutter
16:13solution and apply quote-unquote
16:15applying it
16:17to sundry problems.
16:19>> Yeah.
16:20>> It's a It's a model for for co-inquiry.
16:23You know, we're we're building a
16:24community of inquiry.
16:26>> Yeah.
16:26>> Not not a one-way transaction.
16:28>> Yeah, I really appreciate that his
16:30approach of co-investigators. We're
16:32investigating this and uh
16:36I mean
16:37that when those magical moments happen
16:40um
16:41even when they're not anticipated, I
16:42mean really that is the currency in the
16:44classroom for an educator when you learn
16:46from a student. Which is really
16:49accessible through literature. So, you
16:51know, literature people if you have a a
16:54good discussion in class on a piece of
16:56literature, students
16:58are inevitably going to share their
17:00lived experience. And I've had many of
17:02these experiences where oh, I missed
17:04that entire part of that text or the
17:07subtext of it because I don't have that
17:09lived experience. And so uh there's
17:11always appreciation from an educator. Um
17:14and so I think Freire offers us even a
17:16broader avenue for that magic to happen.
17:20>> Yeah, and the and the flip side of that
17:22is the the humility on the part of the
17:24teacher having student that's attendant
17:25to that that you realize you know, I I
17:28was the smartest person in this
17:29classroom until I realized the
17:32exponential wealth of experience and
17:34wisdom that I'm staring at as I look out
17:38over this sea of faces in my classroom.
17:40That I mean, the wealth of experience in
17:42any given classroom that collectively
17:45sort of dwarfs what whatever wisdom I
17:48might be bringing to the table.
17:51>> Yeah, humility is key and uh a very
17:54difficult thing if you're not open to
17:56it. Um
17:58it's um
17:59yeah, we I think I have some questions
18:01that address that later, but let's keep
18:03going with the chat. Um
18:05Jesse is asking Jesse Reina is asking in
18:07terms of learning styles
18:10um and pedagogy, transmission teaching
18:13equals a banking model, then what is
18:16there to say about other types of
18:18learning styles? How does Freire view
18:21this or does he address this at at all?
18:24Does he recognize learning styles like
18:26auditory, visual, kinesthetic?
18:31>> Yeah, I think Lanell's taking a stab at
18:33that, so I don't want to steal her
18:34thunder if she's
18:38got Jesse's answer on hand.
18:41Yeah, I would I was going to begin the
18:42same way Lanell did that when when
18:44Freire is writing,
18:45this predates the
18:47the learning styles
18:49movement and higher in education.
18:52Subsequent there to as Lanell points
18:55out,
18:56the data on the the need demarcation of
18:58learning styles has been
19:00really systematically and comprehensibly
19:02debunked. The you identify a student as
19:04I'm I'm one this type of learner and
19:07then you test them in three different
19:08modalities, they they don't do any
19:10better in their quote unquote preferred
19:12modality of learning.
19:13But then I think to get back to Freire,
19:15what he would propose is that yeah, it's
19:18not so much a matter of demarcating
19:19styles,
19:20but it would be broadly experiential
19:23learning.
19:24That is, you know, alternating between,
19:26you know, the written, the spoken, the
19:28the visual, the kinesthetic.
19:30That we don't need to carve these up as
19:32exclusive modalities as if, okay, now
19:34I'm seeing, but now I'm listening and
19:37now I'm moving. I can't do these three
19:39things at the same time. No, we're
19:41constantly engaging all three of these
19:42quote unquote modalities at the whole
19:44time. So, I would get away from these
19:46these boxes and think more holistically
19:48about, yeah, what what does experiential
19:50education look like? Prob- problems that
19:52I'm really dealing with, problems that
19:54I'm really caring about, solutions that
19:55I can actually see and maybe contribute
19:57to.
20:00>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and
20:02and yeah, in other words, probably
20:03engaging the human experience in
20:05education.
20:06>> Yeah, engaging the human engaging the
20:08human through whatever open window they
20:11can be engaged.
20:12>> Mhm.
20:14Yeah.
20:15Rene Rios is offering a real practical
20:18question. So, for core curriculum
20:20purposes,
20:21with this dialogue between student and
20:24how do we measure social responsibility,
20:26personal responsibility, and so on?
20:31>> Yeah, if if we can all agree that that
20:33is the question,
20:36then I think we're on solid ground. I'm
20:37I'm not sure all of us have gotten to
20:39the point of appreciating that question
20:41as more than rhetorical.
20:43Well, yeah, this this would be the
20:45question in
20:46in so far as we as professional
20:49educators employed by a public
20:51institution
20:52have some level of accountability. How
20:55how are we going to
20:57meet that accountability in terms of
21:00assessment {slash} measurement {slash}
21:02something else?
21:03If if we can get to the point where this
21:05isn't just something that we have to do,
21:06but it's something that we ought to be
21:07doing because we're responsible
21:10educators,
21:11then yeah, Renee, you've hit right on
21:12where where the next difficult question
21:14is.
21:17>> We measure this, yeah.
21:19>> Um
21:20Leanna
21:21is offered a comment here. There are
21:22probably There probably would be a lot
21:25of resistance from the type A
21:28commenting on my comment before that you
21:30mentioned, but if
21:33but if we could retain ourselves
21:35together,
21:36we could shift to a different model.
21:38Many of us would be very open to have at
21:41least the new model as an option. I
21:44would love if the product we offered in
21:47English, for example, was not writing,
21:49but thinking. Oh, that's an interesting
21:51idea. Uh thinking through text, thinking
21:55through issues, thinking through
21:57identity and construction.
22:01>> Yeah, and
22:03as is typically the case in a lot of
22:05situations, I think my English faculty,
22:08or at least some of them, are going to
22:10be my canary in the coal mine on this
22:12kind of thing
22:13because they're you know, once you
22:14witness what has been roundly recognized
22:17as the death of the college essay
22:19thanks to various emergent technologies,
22:22uh I think my English faculty are all
22:23slowly realizing, "Okay, we never cared
22:25about the essay. We didn't want essays
22:28because we like having essays in our
22:30office or we love grading essays. We
22:33relied on the essay as evidence of what
22:35we really cared about. It was the one
22:37thing that we could point to to say,
22:38yeah, over the course of these weeks the
22:41student has been developing this, that,
22:43and the other thing. And now we're
22:44realizing, no, we need to start naming
22:46and looking at the this, that, and the
22:48other thing
22:49absent
22:51an an absolute high-stakes focus on the
22:54product.
22:56>> Yeah. Yeah, to piggyback on that, uh you
22:59know, AI started descending on us what
23:01about two, three years ago and like
23:04>> November '22.
23:05>> Okay, yeah, it's our September 11th.
23:08Um
23:09uh I remember freaking out but then
23:12actually I got inspired because it
23:14totally compelled me and it made me
23:17realize that, oh, I've been kind of just
23:20uh phoning this in after, you know,
23:22nearly two decades of being an educator
23:25and I forgot, you know, what am I doing
23:27here? Um and, you know, what I'm doing
23:30here is is
23:32it referring back to Leanne's comment,
23:33yeah, I want to have students engage
23:36with thinking. Um thinking about issues
23:39that apply to them. So, AI has actually
23:42been a blessing um in my courses.
23:45Um yeah, and forcing me to think about
23:47what I'm doing.
23:48>> Right. And and speaking of reminders and
23:51maybe I think all of us have probably
23:52had this moment at some point where we
23:54realized, oh no, as it as a teacher I've
23:56been asleep at the wheel. I I need to
23:58re-remember what this is about. Uh when
24:01I was first introduced to Freire, I
24:03mean, I I was reminded of something. I
24:04was like, this this is Plato.
24:07This is, you know, this is book seven of
24:10Plato's Republic, you know, the the
24:12education of the philosopher. Where
24:14already I mean, Freire is complaining
24:15about the banking model of education and
24:17proposing a radical alternative called
24:19the problem-posing model.
24:21Plato has Socrates do what in my mind is
24:23the exact same thing in the middle of
24:25book seven of of
24:26saying, you know, it's you get the
24:28allegory of the cave and this is a model
24:30for what education looks like and
24:31Socrates says, "And if this is the case,
24:33education cannot be what most people say
24:36it is."
24:37You know, the transmission of
24:38information into a mind as if you could
24:40put sight into blind eyes.
24:42No, the true education is a matter of
24:44turning someone around and pointing
24:47their eyes in the right direction.
24:50And so it And so all the way from Plato
24:51to Freire, we've had you know, radical
24:54educators complaining, "You guys are
24:55getting it wrong. We're getting it
24:57wrong."
24:58Uh but it's right there in the word, the
25:00Latin educare, lead leading out of.
25:03You know, education isn't supposed to be
25:04about the transmission of information,
25:06especially not today.
25:08It education is about a leading out of,
25:10you know, leading out of the cave,
25:11leading out of ignorance, leading out of
25:13poverty, leading out of oppression. It's
25:15It's a leading out of some undesirable
25:17state to
25:19a a better,
25:21more fruitful and flourishing, happier
25:23state.
25:25>> Yeah. As a non-philosopher, I think I've
25:28heard it stated that all philosophy is a
25:30footnote to Plato. So, I think this is
25:32in play.
25:33>> Something that Whitehead said once,
25:34yeah.
25:35>> Okay.
25:37Um
25:38Sh- uh
25:40Uh Carissa says, uh "Shout out to uh the
25:43common reading program." Yeah, thank you
25:45for that. And maybe this is an
25:47opportunity for me to plug it and um
25:49if I could be perhaps I'm being a little
25:51bold here, but I think we've landed on a
25:54model in the podcast when applied to the
25:57Animal Farm. It has been amazing. Uh
26:00we're we're having a read-along of the
26:01Animal Farm and wow, uh it was just a a
26:05random thought that uh popped in my
26:07head. I had a talk with Martha Cantú and
26:09we said, "Let's just try it." And it's
26:12it's been amazing just because students
26:13are reading, you know, a paragraph or
26:15two and I think the application of
26:17reading gives them the opportunity to
26:20go, "Oh, that's" and then they'll chime
26:22in and offer a thought, an analysis
26:24about what they just read. So, uh we're
26:27doing another one of those next Friday
26:29um at 11:00, so look for the Zoom link
26:32out there.
26:33>> Absolutely.
26:34>> Yeah.
26:35>> Uh,
26:36are we moving on to Professor Sikkema
26:38next?
26:39>> Yes.
26:40>> I think Yeah, he's about to drag us into
26:41the depths. So,
26:43I'll do my best to engage, but keep this
26:45where everybody can tread water.
26:47>> Okay, but the teacher would yet have
26:52knowledge to impart, i.e. definite and
26:55determinate concepts, process, methods,
26:57etc. that would need to be learned in
27:00order for the student to transition from
27:03content-specific ignorance to awareness.
27:07That Friere is, uh, challenging the form
27:10of pedagogical exchange, the power
27:13relationship this belies, etc. is not to
27:16say that there is nothing like the
27:19attainment of knowledge, is it?
27:22>> Yeah, and I I love this question, and I
27:25think James and I would have to do a
27:26whole 'nother podcast on this, and
27:28James, I would love to.
27:30And my my first stab at this would be
27:35I I want to say yes and no, because I
27:38don't want to look at concepts,
27:40processes, methods, etc. as absolutely
27:43determinant. I think these things are
27:46constructed by humans as useful for
27:48human purposes. So, there's nothing to
27:51say that you couldn't develop and or
27:53maybe even land on
27:55these predetermined concepts, processes,
27:57and methods, but I think I would want to
27:59hold that asterisk by the word
28:01determinant.
28:02Uh, more radically, I'm reminded again
28:04of another part of Plato, if we go all
28:06the way back to the Meno, um,
28:08the students essentially learn from
28:11themselves without the teacher imparting
28:13any knowledge. And I actually gave a
28:15presentation on this at one of our Catch
28:17the Next seminars a year or two ago,
28:19where I paired Freire with this guy,
28:22Jacques Rancière,
28:24uh, who wrote a book called The Ignorant
28:25Schoolmaster, where he go he takes this
28:27to the extreme in saying that the
28:29teacher actually doesn't have to know
28:30anything
28:32to effectively facilitate learning in
28:33the students.
28:35Not Not sure if I buy it, but that end
28:37of the spectrum has been
28:38explicitly charted out by Rancière.
28:42>> Oh, well, that affirms my own experience
28:44as a teacher for 20 years.
28:47The more I teach
28:47>> But there But there remains
28:49But there remains an art to being a
28:51teacher-hyphen-student.
28:55>> Uh Bernice is asking, uh how can
28:58educators encourage students to think
28:59critically and participate more actively
29:01in their learning while still meeting
29:03the required curriculum standards?
29:06>> Yeah. No, that's That's going to be a
29:08tension that's going to require creative
29:10navigation
29:12on the side of the teacher-student and
29:13the student-teacher in real time, and
29:15then sort of some subversive
29:18political collaboration
29:21on the side that dictates things like,
29:24quote unquote, curriculum standards.
29:26Uh happily, we're we're not as beholden
29:28to curriculum standards as folks in K-12
29:30are. I think a lot of our outcomes and
29:33standards are so
29:35vaguely worded that we could basically
29:38smuggle in all sorts of fun, meaningful
29:40stuff on under those umbrellas, but
29:42yeah, Bernice, you're you're pointing to
29:44a real and existent tension that once
29:47these standards have been articulated
29:49that by by definition and by necessity
29:52delimits the space for freedom and ergo
29:55liberation.
29:57So, yeah, on the on the one hand,
29:58teachers and students have to be more
29:59creative to play within these confines.
30:01And then those of us in a position to do
30:03so need to do more to unwind and then
30:06rewind
30:08these these types of requirements and
30:09standards. Not chucking them all
30:10together,
30:12but setting them up in a way that
30:14where where teachers and students have
30:16the latitude for something like real
30:18learning and real liberation.
30:22>> Yeah. Yeah, I'm just thinking
30:23practically, the the the anxiety that
30:25pops in my head if I came into a
30:28started the semester, what do you all
30:30want to learn? What are you worried
30:31about?
30:32>> Um there are actually things as somebody
30:34who has studied US history for going on
30:3735 years that I do want to bestow to
30:41students.
30:43White supremacy, capitalism, the
30:45patriarchy. And yeah, I would um
30:48it would be fascinating like to start
30:51from a blank slate, but I would be
30:54if students came in and they were not
30:55interested in that, I would be like,
30:57well, how do I approach US history
30:59without that? I'm sure these these
31:01topics and concepts and issues would
31:03come up inevitably, but you know, we all
31:06have our pet issues and concerns when it
31:08comes to our passion to what we've been
31:10training all our lives to to teach. And
31:13yeah, this is where it's very vulnerable
31:15in having a lot of humility. We might
31:17have to relinquish what it is we're very
31:19passionate about in service to what our
31:21students are passionate about.
31:23>> Yeah.
31:24Yeah, no, and I think you're picking up
31:25on a on a real important insight that we
31:27we think we know the problems that our
31:30students need to be aware of and need to
31:32solve. We we think we know the problems
31:34oppressing them. We we might be mistaken
31:37to a little extent or to a large extent
31:39in that regard.
31:40But but I I think you're saying in your
31:42discipline in particular, whatever the
31:44problem is, if it's a real problem,
31:45there's a history to it.
31:47Maybe multiple histories to it.
31:50Yeah, so you you start with the concrete
31:51in the particular and then you know, you
31:53work your way up to
31:55what we usually begin with, which is the
31:57the theme in the lesson plan.
32:00>> Yeah.
32:02Uh from Robin, uh we this looks like
32:05just a comment here. We can try to shift
32:07away from grading to projects. Would
32:10that be a way to reconstruct our models
32:13so
32:14it's no longer a war between the graders
32:18and the graded as judgment uh creates a
32:21power structure. Ooh, that's a really
32:23interesting comment.
32:24>> Yeah. Yeah, and if we could find a way
32:26to somehow quasi
32:29cohort our students, we can even scale
32:31that outside of the the single course to
32:34interdisciplinary coursework.
32:36You know, identify a real problem and
32:38then this semester well, I'm taking a
32:40history class, a government class, and a
32:42biology class. I bet whatever your
32:45problem is, those three disciplines have
32:47some bearing on it.
32:50>> Did you hear that, James?
32:52I keep bugging James ever since
32:53>> Project It's called It's called
32:54project-based learning. It's It's a
32:56great idea that people have had for
32:57maybe a decade. I haven't seen any
32:59places except some of the really, really
33:01radical small liberal arts colleges
33:04where where it's practiced.
33:06>> Yeah. Well, we used to have a
33:08a great institution here. We've kind of
33:10abandoned it here at South Texas
33:11College, but you and I experienced this
33:14the learning communities where we team
33:16taught or students were in a cohort. And
33:19I got to tell you that was some of my
33:21most beloved experiences as an educator.
33:25>> Well, and it's also it's also a sort of
33:27a halfway house to where Freire is
33:28trying to point us in that when when
33:30we're teaching a learning community, our
33:32students also get to see
33:34the two faculty member arguing about
33:36things.
33:36>> Mhm.
33:37>> Like like we're both the quote-unquote
33:38experts and we don't agree about
33:39something. What What does disagreement
33:41look like between friends? So, we can we
33:43can model that type of dialogue in that
33:46context for the students.
33:48>> Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
33:50Absolutely. James uh uh
33:53has a comment here. This problem mirrors
33:56the one Dewey encounters with {quote}
33:58the child and the curriculum {unquote}
34:01and his solution of {quote} assisted
34:04adaptation
34:05of child to curriculum and curriculum to
34:08child.
34:12>> Yeah, and that And the question and
34:13James would probably be much better on
34:15this point than I am. The question is at
34:18what point does the the quantity of
34:21years and its attended experience shift
34:24into a qualitative distinction? Like I I
34:26think there's some point at which, you
34:28know, adult teacher, child student, you
34:31you can only Freire so far.
34:33But you get to a point where you've got
34:34adult teacher, adult student, you you
34:37can full on Freire in that moment. And
34:39it's a question of when does that
34:40happen? Is it, you know, 18 because you
34:42can vote? Is it 25 because we think
34:44that's when your brain is
34:47for the most part connected in the ways
34:49that it's going to stay connected? So,
34:51I'm I'm sure this is a question that
34:52James has asked, probably has several
34:54answers to.
34:55But, yes, absolutely. Dewey was
34:57proposing for K-12 what Freire is
35:00radicalizing for education at large.
35:05>> Excellent. James again, the paradox of
35:07education in the Meno is instructive. If
35:11I already know what I am looking for, I
35:14don't need to learn. If I don't know
35:17when, then I won't recognize whether
35:20I've arrived at knowledge by means of
35:22learning.
35:25>> Sorry, I just put something in the chat
35:26for Carissa.
35:28>> Okay, excellent.
35:30>> And anybody else who's interested.
35:33>> Yeah, the author of the book Carissa was
35:36referring to earlier.
35:38Um
35:39Uh Renee Rios uh with a question here or
35:42comment. Uh Dr. Nelson mentioned earlier
35:45about
35:46um
35:47Whaley
35:48or walking into class uh sans syllabus
35:52and then based upon open dialogue from a
35:54base curriculum reading and so on. Could
35:57a faculty member suggest highly
35:58controversial secondary monographs for
36:00reading? For example, some of Randall
36:03Kennedy's writings that discuss race,
36:06the social applications and social
36:08oppression based race.
36:15>> And I I mean, as as a matter of
36:17practice, Renee, or just given the
36:20particular historical and geographic
36:25climate / environment in which we happen
36:27to be living at this moment?
36:28>> Um
36:30I I
36:32I have one I have one text in mind for
36:34for
36:35from Kennedy, but it's um
36:38it's highly controversial number one
36:40because it's kind of an offshoot of what
36:42happened during the George Floyd
36:44incident.
36:45>> Okay.
36:46>> So, there's social applications. I mean,
36:48there's divisiveness, but there's also
36:50historic use of certain
36:54derogatory racial terms even by the
36:56Supreme Court, and whether you should
36:58actually discuss those terms
37:00in a class setting based upon
37:03the caustic nature of those terms, if
37:07that makes sense.
37:08>> It It does, and I'm inclined to say that
37:12the classroom might be the one space
37:14where we should be having precisely
37:16those kinds of conversations.
37:18And I'm And I'm reminded of the
37:20the revised
37:22uh
37:22statement on academic freedom, which I
37:24think came out maybe the
37:2640s or 50s. I'll have to go check. Where
37:29they
37:30they explicitly maintained
37:32we
37:34we should not be eschewing controversy.
37:37We We should be embracing controversy as
37:39the site of, you know, higher
37:41educational pedagogy.
37:43>> And And And if society is, you know, if
37:46if there is limit if there are
37:47limitations in society based upon
37:49educational level, and Freire is talking
37:51about this open dialogue, well, this
37:54kind of it should fit right in with that
37:56kind of idea, that concept, and that
37:58practice of
37:59uh
38:00students being a little bit more What's
38:02the word? Um
38:04more engaged in the educational process,
38:07more um attuned to what's happening
38:09socially and how it applies to the
38:10classroom,
38:12and how they participate in all of those
38:14things uh as as engaged agents and as
38:17active agents of their own educ-
38:19education overall.
38:21>> Yeah, absolutely. And that And that in
38:22itself can give birth to a Freirean
38:25teachable moment, as it did with one of
38:27my colleagues up at Texas A&M
38:30when they were forced to remove uh
38:32Plato's Symposium from their course
38:34syllabus.
38:35Uh
38:37the faculty member complied and then
38:38replaced that with a lesson on
38:41"Students, I cannot teach Plato's
38:43Symposium in this class. Why do you
38:45suppose that is? Let's investigate that
38:47for a week.
38:49And we're we're confronted with a real
38:50problem here right now in real time. My
38:52problem, your problem.
38:54What what's at the root of that problem?
38:55What's that problem about? Uh what kind
38:57of perspectives can we take on that
38:58problem?
39:01So yeah, teachable moments piled upon or
39:03stemming from teachable moments.
39:07>> Yeah.
39:08Yeah.
39:09Part of education being an educator is
39:11to be vigilant on being creative.
39:16Yeah. Um
39:18you know, one of the things I'm struck
39:19with in peda-
39:31>> Oh, Shawn, I think we just lost your
39:32audio.
40:08>> Is Is this a teachable moment?
40:10>> I think so. There's Okay, Renee Renee,
40:12is my audio still working?
40:13>> It is. Yes.
40:14>> Okay.
40:15>> Yes.
40:15>> I'm going to subject you to a little
40:16difficulty here.
41:23>> Yeah, okay. Well, we're waiting for
41:24Shawn. If everybody can still hear me,
41:25I'd like to get into Jesse's question
41:27from the chat.
41:29Uh for for those of you who either
41:31haven't read Ferry or read Ferry and
41:33missed the pretty clear subtext, he he
41:36is operating from a from an informed
41:38Marxist position,
41:40which once you say that out loud, of
41:42course, we are all Marxist lunatics and
41:44shouldn't be listened to.
41:46Um
41:47But yeah, to answer Jesse's question, do
41:49we therefore need to reframe this so
41:51that we don't say the M-word? Um sure. I
41:55think to be intellectually responsible,
41:57at some point that has to be put on the
41:58table.
41:59Uh but no, it becomes a question of
42:02>> Sorry, I'm I'm back.
42:03>> Hey. That's right. I was
42:05>> talking about.
42:06>> Yeah, I was just waiting into Jesse's
42:07question about whether we should not use
42:09the M-word.
42:10>> What's the M-word?
42:12>> Marxist.
42:13>> Oh.
42:14>> But yeah, I mean, some of the
42:15oppositions that Pierre Ferry highlights
42:16in chapter four, I think we start there,
42:19you know,
42:20do we prefer conquest or cooperation?
42:23Do we prefer divide and rule or or
42:26unity? Do we prefer prefer manipulation
42:29or organization? Do we prefer cultural
42:31invasion or cultural synthesis?
42:34I think if you can frame it that way and
42:37somebody's honestly listening,
42:40you'll get affirmative answers on all
42:41four points.
42:43Um then it's just a question of how to
42:45break the news, you know, well,
42:47congratulations, comrade, you've joined
42:48the revolution.
42:52>> Yeah. So, I was
42:55leaning into the question of patriarchy.
42:57Was any of that broadcasted?
42:59>> No, I think we lost you right at the
43:01beginning.
43:02>> Okay.
43:03Yeah, I'm just struck by fear. I it's
43:06definitely a
43:09an analysis of the patriarchy. Again,
43:12father rules
43:13is a literal meaning of it, which
43:15affects us all. And I was sharing that
43:19personally I've done a lot of unwinding
43:22of the patriarchy, which is based on
43:25domination, control, lack of
43:27vulnerability, lack of humility.
43:30How does that all get in the way of real
43:33learning? This this age-old power
43:36structure of the patriarchy, which is
43:38not Let me just put this out there. It's
43:40not shame on you men. It is It's a
43:43system that obviously hurts women and
43:48children, but it is something that we
43:49need to under also understand. It hurts
43:51men as well. It
43:53basically creates malformed men that are
43:55incapable of of human of real human
43:58relationships. But yeah, how does that
43:59get in the way of real learning?
44:01>> Yeah, I know. And you're hitting right
44:02upon the crux of sort of the dialectical
44:05contradiction here. That in a in a
44:07system that's patriarchal or paternal or
44:10as we're thinking of it a banking model
44:12of education, what the son or the child
44:15or the student is learning is, okay,
44:17that one has knowledge, that one has
44:19power.
44:21I I will have knowledge and power
44:23when I am like that one.
44:26That that is the fundamental takeaway
44:29from that model of politics,
44:32socio-economic organization, or
44:34pedagogy.
44:35That when you've got that type of
44:38you know, oppressor oppressee
44:40relationship, regardless of what
44:43information the student might come away
44:44with or skills you might be able to
44:46hammer into them by brute force, the
44:48lesson that they're taking away is I I
44:51will be wise and smart, powerful, and
44:53fully human when I am like that one.
44:55When I when I am able to do what that
44:57one is doing to me to someone else.
45:00>> Oh, okay, that touches into a I think a
45:02keen argument of his, the oppressed
45:06typically become the oppressors.
45:09>> Yes. Yeah.
45:11>> Yeah, cuz they internalize I mean the
45:13model is oppression. And so when I get
45:15power,
45:17uh power is
45:20is is is is seen as being oppressive
45:23rather than power perhaps being an
45:25avenue of love and empathy.
45:28>> Yeah, and and think about the typical
45:30response you'll get to that by the
45:31status quo is, you know, that's pie in
45:33the sky, bleeding liberal, bleeding
45:35heart liberal wishful thinking. This is
45:38the way of the world. You know, i.e.
45:40oppressors and oppressed. Oppression is
45:42the nature of the world. These are the
45:44rules of the game. So, which would you
45:46rather be?
45:48And and once you set up the entirety of
45:49the game along those lines,
45:51yeah, every oppressee wants nothing but
45:54to become an oppressor.
45:57>> Yeah, and
45:58yeah, and that's why I think this was
46:00such a whoever is on the committee for
46:02the common reading program, what a what
46:05a great matching of Pedagogy of the
46:08Oppressed with with Animal Farm because
46:10this is exactly what he's is George
46:12Orwell is getting at. The animals become
46:15the oppressors.
46:16Right? Those darn pigs. Um
46:20Uh you know, this kind of
46:22what what I'm
46:24One of the challenges I've had in in
46:26applying I mean again, you you
46:28introduced this to me 20 years ago. I
46:31remember being quite inspired by this
46:33and I tried to apply it, but I always
46:36came up short
46:38because I think I was going through, you
46:40know, my own personal issues of
46:41vulnerability and and being humble. Um
46:45and what strikes me is this is not a
46:47text that you could just read, uh take
46:50some notes on, and going, "Okay, here is
46:52my syllabus. I'm going to apply this.
46:54This is
46:56This has to do a lot with um
46:59well, a lot of grace has to happen. A
47:01lot of I think inner transformation has
47:03to happen when it comes to this.
47:07>> Yeah, it's where we're not getting a
47:0912-step plan and a rubric
47:12for for implementing a pedagogy of the
47:14oppressed.
47:18And Leanne and Robin, thanks for the
47:20recommendation. If if Shawn forgets to
47:23remind me cuz he'll have access to the
47:24chat, could one of you text or email
47:27that recommendation to me as well? I'd
47:28love to check it out.
47:31>> Excellent. Yeah.
47:33Um let me check the chat just in case
47:36any questions have come in. Yamileth, oh
47:38one of my students I believe here. Yeah.
47:40In my opinion, I think that you as a
47:43teacher you communicate very well. Oh,
47:46golly gee, thank you.
47:47>> Actually credit.
47:50>> More EDCMs for you.
47:52Uh you communicate very well with us and
47:53help us understand how many problems in
47:56history impact and are still passing in
47:59this time.
48:00I like how you all as teachers are still
48:03trying to help us as students learn and
48:05engage with learning. Well, thank you
48:08Yamileth, but I do have to admit that
48:11I'm far from incorporating this into my
48:14courses. Um I come in with a set
48:17curriculum. I come in with a
48:19set of my own ideals, so
48:22this is a very humbling experience to
48:24really engage with Fiera on a serious
48:26level because
48:28um yeah, I
48:30I have to admit when Dr. Nelson here is
48:33saying that yeah, day one, "Hey, what
48:37are you guys all worried about? What do
48:38you want to learn?" As as exciting as
48:41that does truly sound exciting to
48:43approach it, but man, that would be
48:45angst-ridden
48:47and
48:48really require a lot of vulnerability
48:50just not just as a teacher, but as a as
48:51a human being.
48:53>> But also also realize that what has gone
48:55largely unsaid to this point, it's not
48:58as if we're abandoning our content
49:00knowledge and our wisdom in order to
49:01adopt that posture. We're we're actually
49:04relying on it in spades.
49:06The Yeah, what do you guys want to start
49:08with? And the underlying assumption that
49:09I as a teacher-hyphen-student am hanging
49:12on to is whatever problem they're
49:13worried about, I will be able to draw on
49:16something in my knowledge, in my wisdom
49:18that has some bearing on that.
49:21So, you don't lead with your knowledge,
49:23but you need to have it so that you can
49:26help respond to students with their
49:27problems.
49:29So, yeah. It's not an either-or. You We
49:31We have to actually live up to the ideal
49:34that we so often pretend to be. We're
49:36the smart ones. We're the wise ones.
49:37Okay, we'll keep that at the ready
49:39because it's going to be needed. You
49:41just don't lead with it.
49:43>> Okay. And And And I'm just thinking in
49:45practical purposes of the teacher
49:47becoming the student, yeah, what it I'm
49:50just thinking of a
49:51uh of if if I had a bunch of students
49:53say, "You know what? I'd really like to
49:54learn about the history of sports."
49:57I'm not a sports guy.
49:59And so, I would have to go, "Oh, a lot
50:01of you want to learn about the history
50:02of sports." just as an example.
50:04That would compel me to do some reading,
50:07to provide them with some readings on
50:10how to facilitate us to explore that as
50:12co-investigators. So,
50:15you know, we all went we all got into
50:16this gig as students because we
50:19presumably love to learn. And so,
50:22um yeah, this might keep the the
50:24learning hat on rather than the the
50:26teaching hat on.
50:29>> Yeah, and I don't think
50:31I don't know. I don't want to speak for
50:32anybody else, but I for my in my own
50:34case, and I suspect for a lot of people
50:36unless I'm just a wild anomaly,
50:38um I had a lot of great teachers who
50:39gave me a lot of great, you know,
50:41knowledge,
50:42but I don't think I got any of my
50:45questions from them.
50:48As As I became smarter, more educated,
50:51possibly wiser,
50:53I I was the one developing my questions,
50:55and that's where they're my questions.
50:57You know, the faculty were there to help
50:58me guide guide me towards ways of
51:00reframing those questions or trying to
51:02answer them, then questioning those
51:04answers. Yeah, I don't think we ever
51:06give the questions to the students. The
51:08questions have to be theirs. And I think
51:10that's another way of coming at Freire's
51:12point. Why not start with their
51:14questions?
51:15If that's what we're trying to
51:17cultivate.
51:19>> I think the real challenge here is we're
51:21receiving students that have been
51:22subjected to the banking model K through
51:2512. And so
51:27um
51:28uh I think some speaking of humility, I
51:31think there's going to be a if if a an
51:33educator is truly committed to this
51:35approach, there's going to be some
51:36humility involved of how to
51:40kind of unpack that because um
51:43in my experience, hey,
51:45you know, if I bring up a topic of the
51:47Constitution or slavery and really try
51:50to
51:51allow my students to drive the
51:53discussion, uh I think students are in
51:56the mindset in the practice of
51:59aren't you supposed to be the one giving
52:01us the questions? And there's usually a
52:04lot of silence when that happens.
52:06>> And and this gets into Freire's
52:08discussion of what he calls the fear of
52:10freedom.
52:11That there's there's a kind of comfort
52:13in remaining in that posture of the
52:15passive recipient. There's there's a
52:17kind of comfort in remaining in the
52:19situation of the oppressed. You don't
52:21have to figure anything out. You you
52:22don't have to decide anything. You're
52:24not responsible for anything or
52:25accountable for anything.
52:27The the rules of the game are laid out
52:28for you. All you have to do is play.
52:31To to break out of those structures
52:32means
52:34and I think everybody understands this
52:36when confronted with this, everybody
52:37understands this at least implicitly,
52:39okay, if I cross this line and jump off
52:41this cliff, I'm going to be assuming a
52:43level of responsibility and
52:45accountability hitherto unknown to me.
52:49>> Mhm.
52:52Which in theory we should be very open
52:55to. I mean
52:56>> Yes. But it's but we have to admit that
52:58that there's a psychological component
52:59that makes this terribly frightening.
53:02>> Even a spiritual component to it.
53:03>> Sure. Sure.
53:05Yeah.
53:06Um meaning just
53:07and not to get, you know, over inflated
53:10there, but uh what I mean by spiritual
53:12is just being vulnerable to this. Um
53:15Um yeah. Um
53:17I've got another theme here uh relevancy
53:20to community college students. So, uh
53:23to use the M word once again, applying a
53:261968 revolutionary Marxist educational
53:28philosophy, which this text is, to 2026
53:32higher education.
53:33So, Freire wrote this book in the 1960s
53:36about illiterate peasants in Brazil. Uh
53:39what a why should a community college
53:41student in 2026 care about his ideas?
53:46>> B- because I think that's great. I love
53:48it. I think what Freire was doing
53:51I think more out of actual compassion
53:54that this is the community he wanted to
53:55work with, but also sort of as
53:58an exercise in proving just how much is
54:00possible.
54:02Um
54:03I'm reminded of the mission of the
54:04community college, which carve it up
54:06however you like, at some point has to
54:08speak to the fact that we will educate
54:11anyone.
54:14>> Mhm.
54:14>> You know, it if you want an education
54:17and you have the will to pursue an
54:19education, you know, click here.
54:21Congratulations, you're a student at
54:23STC.
54:25>> Yeah.
54:26>> How we make good on that promise given
54:27the wild diversity of our student
54:30population. That that's the logistical
54:32challenge. But yeah, I think the the
54:34point that Freire is trying to make in
54:35practice is human beings are learning
54:39animals.
54:40This the capacity for being educated,
54:43educating oneself, even educating your
54:45teacher is there. That this is part of
54:47the essence of our humanity. It's it's
54:49one of the things, if not the thing,
54:51that distinguishes us as a species.
54:57>> Yeah.
54:58Um
55:00Many students uh
55:02community members, taxpayers, uh dare I
55:06say administrators view uh, community
55:09colleges strictly as a tool to get a
55:11certificate, get a better job, and make
55:14more money.
55:15>> Yeah.
55:16>> Is he here against that, or does his
55:18philosophy offer something more?
55:20>> No, I think I think it would be a
55:21classic case of a both and and then this
55:23goes all the way back to over a hundred
55:24years ago when when the first public
55:26JuCo was founded in this country. You
55:29know, the community college being
55:30essentially an American experiment. Uh,
55:32and it had a dual mission from the
55:34beginning.
55:35Half of it was, we are going to prepare
55:36you for your baccalaureate degree. You
55:39want to get a bachelor's degree, but
55:41here's something more affordable, more
55:42accessible, and closer to you where you
55:45can get started on the first year or two
55:46of that.
55:48Uh, but also and immediately there was
55:50vocational and technical training as a
55:52part of this. May- maybe the bachelor's
55:54degree path isn't for you or paths
55:56aren't for you,
55:57but you need something more out of life.
56:00You know, we do technical training to
56:01give you a leg up in industry, you know,
56:04so that
56:06you could hopefully earn a family
56:08sustaining livable wage, so that you
56:11wouldn't have to worry about your basic
56:12needs, so that you could get on with the
56:15important work of being a human and and
56:17human and improving the human plight of
56:20your community.
56:21So, yeah, I I don't think Freire would
56:23see these at odds with each other. You
56:24know, the reason we want the student to
56:25get a certificate is so that they're not
56:28worried about buying food every day.
56:31They've got full bellies and they can be
56:32worried about more important, more
56:34humane things.
56:37>> Excellent. I have a comment in here from
56:40a Stephanie. Uh, personally for me, I
56:42did learn more with Kennedy. Oh, again,
56:45a student of mine.
56:45>> Extra credit again.
56:47>> More EDC ones for you. I've taken him in
56:50person, the one um, and I Oh, yeah, I
56:52remember you, Stephanie. Uh, good to
56:54hear see you out there. The one uh,
56:57is great to ask us questions about
56:59things going on every day in the
57:01learning environment is just great. I
57:03would leave wanting or wishing we had
57:06more time. Oh, yeah, me too.
57:09I'm still uh, upset about the 5 minutes
57:12shaved off of our class time since we've
57:15expanded our campus, but we we do what
57:18what we can work with here.
57:18>> We had to do that because of all the
57:20news up up in the colony in the P
57:22building. Nobody can get anywhere in 10
57:23minutes.
57:26>> But I appreciate that Stephanie. Thank
57:28you. It's good to know that
57:30at least what I'm attempting is is
57:33resonating with some students out there.
57:36>> And if I could pick up on that real
57:37quick, the good news is to to Stephanie
57:40and to Shawn, we have more time.
57:43You just don't have that dedicated time
57:44in that classroom with those people, but
57:46presumably yeah, you want more time to
57:48talk about those things and learn more.
57:50That that's what the rest of your life
57:52is for and and we're still here and
57:54available.
57:55>> Yeah.
57:56>> So yeah, congratulations on joining the
57:58community of inquiry and lifelong
57:59learners.
58:00>> Yeah, that's one of the motivations for
58:02this podcast discussions outside of the
58:04textbook. I probably should call it
58:06discussions outside of the classroom.
58:08Um
58:09It it actually derived from the
58:12lockdown. I was a department chair at
58:14the time and it was just Norma and I in
58:17here in the building. It was very
58:19lonely. And one of the things I realized
58:22that I was taking for granted is what's
58:24great about being a college instructor
58:27is the serendipitous conversations that
58:30we get to have. Just running into a
58:32colleague in the hall and hey, what have
58:34you been up to? And they you know, oh,
58:36I'm about to do this presentation or I'm
58:37writing a book and then you have this
58:41like 10, 15, 20 minute conversation and
58:43you're learning and it's fascinating.
58:45And that was all taken away during the
58:48lockdown. So I thought, well, let's turn
58:50on the camera and talk to each other
58:51about what we think is cool about books
58:54and literature and history and
58:56philosophy. So
58:58Um
58:59Question. Somebody had a question about
59:02the
59:03recording. Yeah, this is this will be
59:05I'll send this out to
59:07a bunch of departments. And so if you're
59:10a student asking that, uh ask your
59:12instructor if they don't make it
59:13forthcoming cuz it'll be available out
59:15there in uh a website that I archive all
59:18of this in.
59:20Um
59:21question, did Professor Nelson used to
59:23teach philosophy back like 14 years ago
59:25or so?
59:28Yep.
59:29>> Yep.
59:30>> Yeah.
59:31Um
59:32yeah, excellent. Um
59:34let's see, any other questions that I
59:36had preset here that I think we really
59:39need to get to. Um
59:46Okay, yeah, here's a question that I um
59:49that I thought was really important.
59:52Um
59:53and I think it gets to the heart of what
59:55Friere is getting at. Why is building a
59:57community based on care and
59:59vulnerability essential for community
1:00:01college students
1:00:02and educators within that system to
1:00:05break free from economic and social
1:00:07pressure?
1:00:12>> Cool, can you go through that one more
1:00:13time cuz I'm I'm trying to decide if I
1:00:14should parse that into multiple parts.
1:00:18>> Um yeah, where did that question Why is
1:00:21building a community
1:00:23uh based on care and vulnerability
1:00:26essential for community college students
1:00:29trying to break free
1:00:31from economic and social pressure?
1:00:36>> Yeah, so so I will take this in two
1:00:38parts. One, but I'll do it quick. Um
1:00:40one, cultivating a community rooted in
1:00:43care and vulnerability
1:00:45is Friere would argue and I think I
1:00:47would second if only for the purposes of
1:00:49argument that that's the only kind of
1:00:51real
1:00:53true community building.
1:00:55That if that if you lack those elements
1:00:56of care and vulnerability, you're not
1:00:58building a community. At best, you might
1:00:59be building a coalition, which is by its
1:01:01very nature temporary.
1:01:03And so in order to resist, you know,
1:01:07external forces, be they economic or
1:01:09otherwise, you need to have a strong
1:01:11community, you know.
1:01:13I want to say in your corner, but it's
1:01:14not even in your corner, like in in your
1:01:16circle or as your circle to to
1:01:18collectively resist things that you
1:01:21would otherwise in all individually
1:01:23succumb to.
1:01:26>> Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that's
1:01:28that's
1:01:30Yeah, that's that's good to hear cuz
1:01:32that's something I assigned the book
1:01:34Incidents in the Life of a Slave Girl.
1:01:37Um
1:01:38and there's lots of themes in that book
1:01:40and one of them is clear the demarcation
1:01:44of love and not love.
1:01:48And it's clear that the oppressed class
1:01:50in that book, the enslaved
1:01:52truly know what love is and
1:01:55they are actually the real they are
1:01:59Um not to patronize them, but they're
1:02:01really the the more free people in that
1:02:03text and the oppressors are not the free
1:02:06people. These people are deeply anxious
1:02:09about their wealth and status and have
1:02:13to maintain a system of brutality. Um
1:02:16that book is one of many uh slave
1:02:19narratives. You know, there was like 12
1:02:21major slave narratives published during
1:02:23the antebellum period. And every single
1:02:26one of them at one point, some more than
1:02:28others, express um
1:02:32uh sympathy or sadness for their
1:02:35oppressors because they're not really
1:02:38human beings. They're malformed human
1:02:40beings acting like children
1:02:42breaking things uh when they don't get
1:02:44what they their their way and with a
1:02:46mindset of this is a world where I
1:02:48should always get my way.
1:02:51>> Yeah. And this is one of Frederick's
1:02:53points that I think, you know, in some
1:02:54circles would be a point of contention
1:02:57maybe ring controversial in some ears,
1:02:59but I think he would want want to
1:03:00maintain you know, truly humane
1:03:02relationships are relationships
1:03:05characterized by care and vulnerability
1:03:07and I'd add therefore trust.
1:03:09The care, vulnerability, trust, these
1:03:11are our
1:03:12these are the
1:03:13elements of our shared humanity.
1:03:16And if you want to say no, they're not,
1:03:20then you probably lean in the direction
1:03:22of people who would try and teach us all
1:03:25that human nature is inherently selfish.
1:03:29And if you start with that posit, yeah,
1:03:31you're you're in the oppressor oppressed
1:03:33game immediately and without apology.
1:03:37>> Yeah, human nature is something I think
1:03:38we really need to think about cuz
1:03:41I human nature as far as I can tell, it
1:03:44there there's not a set human nature. I
1:03:46think it's a reflection in which
1:03:48people live live within a system they
1:03:49live in.
1:03:50They're just
1:03:51>> And that and that's where Freire can get
1:03:52really really radical that if human
1:03:54nature isn't actually fixed,
1:03:57the word liberation
1:03:59comes to take on some really radical
1:04:01meanings.
1:04:02Then how how can, you know, our humanity
1:04:05or our human nature be liberated from
1:04:08the structures in which it has been
1:04:10imposed or in change or imprisoned?
1:04:13And what what would it become? Well,
1:04:14we'd have to get there to find out.
1:04:18That's that's true liberation. We we
1:04:19don't know where we're going.
1:04:21>> Oh, wow.
1:04:25Yeah. Yeah.
1:04:27The promised land is yet unknown.
1:04:29>> Yeah.
1:04:30Yeah.
1:04:31Um which is probably reflected in this
1:04:34live life. This is a great mystery. I
1:04:37mean, anyone who says they have the
1:04:39answers to this life, well, you
1:04:41And they're probably selling you
1:04:43something.
1:04:44>> And yeah, they're selling you something.
1:04:47>> Um
1:04:48Well,
1:04:49how about I take this in the remaining
1:04:51time unless we still I don't have any
1:04:52questions still coming in, but um I
1:04:55can't help but think
1:04:57um
1:04:58and given my flirtation with
1:05:00Christianity in the last 3 years, how
1:05:03Christian coded is this text?
1:05:08>> And despite my proclivity to do that
1:05:10more often than not, that's not a lens
1:05:12that I've applied to Freire, I'm now
1:05:14realizing
1:05:15previously.
1:05:17Um
1:05:18it's probably I mean, given the types of
1:05:20tropes we've been playing with, it's
1:05:21probably not much of a stretch.
1:05:24I I don't know how
1:05:26intentionally Catholic coded this may
1:05:28have been.
1:05:30But the these these aren't going to be
1:05:33alien discourses one to another by any
1:05:36means.
1:05:37>> Yeah, I uh
1:05:39uh James, he was influenced by
1:05:40liberation theology, no?
1:05:42>> Sure. Sure certainly familiar with it,
1:05:44yes. And again, that that is barely a
1:05:47bridge from the one to the other if you
1:05:49connect the right dots.
1:05:51>> Yeah. I just asked that because, yeah,
1:05:53in my brief years of exploring this this
1:05:57type of faith, it
1:05:58um what has shocked me about that faith
1:06:01is despite the public facing of
1:06:03Christianity and often how it's
1:06:05practiced, there's also another avenue
1:06:07of it of yeah, just being very
1:06:09vulnerable, of approaching people as
1:06:11mysteries, of not having expectations,
1:06:15of of of having profound humility, of of
1:06:19um
1:06:20backing away from judgment of people. Um
1:06:24you know, this is all these are all
1:06:25things in ex- they're not exclusive to
1:06:27Christianity, but I I do see the
1:06:29parallels. And obviously, given his
1:06:31background, he's
1:06:33influenced by that w- whether he
1:06:35intended or not. But yeah, I mean,
1:06:36liberation theology is growing hand in
1:06:39hand with when
1:06:40um
1:06:42when Ferrer is writing this text.
1:06:43>> Yeah.
1:06:45Which which does raise some interesting
1:06:46Christological questions.
1:06:48James and Sean, if you guys want to talk
1:06:50about that sometime. To think of
1:06:52you know, in a Ferrer-ian mold, to think
1:06:53of Jesus as, you know, a kind of
1:06:55quote-unquote educator.
1:06:57Did Did he come to bring something, or
1:06:59did he come to help us get out of
1:07:01something?
1:07:04>> Yeah.
1:07:05>> Was Was he a banker or a liberator?
1:07:10>> Was he opening up the disciples' empty
1:07:12heads and stuffing facts in there?
1:07:14>> Yeah.
1:07:16Yeah.
1:07:17Uh I
1:07:18Juliana, I was wondering uh what is our
1:07:21professor what if our professor won't be
1:07:24able to give us the recording?
1:07:27Well, let me put my if that happens, let
1:07:29me put my email in the chat.
1:07:39There we go. So reach out to me and I
1:07:41I'll definitely make sure you get this
1:07:43recording.
1:07:47Well,
1:07:49let me scroll up to make sure I haven't
1:07:51missed anything, but I think
1:07:53um
1:07:56this is
1:07:57somebody just posted a question or this
1:07:59made me think of SK thinking that we
1:08:02need Christ as the first teacher.
1:08:07>> Or even I would say first as teacher.
1:08:09If if ever subsequently redeemer, yeah.
1:08:14>> Okay, I thought you're referring to me,
1:08:16James.
1:08:18>> Oh, Sean Kennedy.
1:08:22>> That's often what I go around telling
1:08:23people.
1:08:24>> For the rest of you SK for us
1:08:26philosophers is shorthand for the 19th
1:08:27century
1:08:29thinker, writer, poet Soren Kierkegaard.
1:08:33>> Oh, okay, thanks. I'll take that as
1:08:35well.
1:08:36Yeah, Soren and I are are like this.
1:08:39>> I mean Sean, before I met you I was
1:08:40writing my dissertation on you
1:08:41apparently.
1:08:43>> Well, you need any more help on that,
1:08:45just
1:08:46let me know.
1:08:47>> Yeah.
1:08:47>> Leanna, in Arab culture the teacher
1:08:49inherits the mission of a prophet. We
1:08:52could all upgrade ourselves to secular
1:08:55prophets.
1:08:56>> Yeah, same same question with the nature
1:08:59of the prophet in both Arab culture and
1:09:02Judeo culture that I think parallels the
1:09:04question about, you know, how we think
1:09:06of the Christ figure or Jesus.
1:09:08You know, is is the prophet
1:09:13bringing a message? Is the prophet
1:09:15conveying a message?
1:09:17How do we think of the prophet vis-a-vis
1:09:20the source of the message and the
1:09:22intended outcome of of message? I think
1:09:24there's some really really rich
1:09:26literature in the history of religion on
1:09:27that question.
1:09:29And yeah, going back through I think
1:09:32most of
1:09:34Islamic history and Judaic history,
1:09:37the the prophets are usually the ones
1:09:39who more than anything else are
1:09:40advocating for what appear like concrete
1:09:44social and economic reforms.
1:09:47>> Mhm.
1:09:48>> Yeah, they're not they're not saying get
1:09:50right with God, read your Bible. They're
1:09:52they're saying, "Here's a huge problem.
1:09:53You guys are screwing up. Stop doing
1:09:55this and here's why."
1:09:58>> Yeah.
1:09:59That's interesting. Um
1:10:00>> More Marxist lunatics, apparently.
1:10:02>> And the the English department has
1:10:04invited me to their book club, uh and we
1:10:07were reading Kurt Vonnegut's uh
1:10:09Breakfast of Champions.
1:10:11Um
1:10:12and what a shotgun of
1:10:15uh of
1:10:16on the surface of cynicism and nihilism
1:10:19that text is. But, that would be um one
1:10:22probably kind of a projection of the
1:10:24reader, perhaps. Um my takeaway after
1:10:28struggling with that book, and it is a
1:10:30struggle, not just not it's a very easy
1:10:32read, but it's a struggle because he's
1:10:34pointing to
1:10:35uh
1:10:36some really disturbing things about our
1:10:38culture, the consumer-based culture,
1:10:41capitalism, uh patriarchy, white
1:10:43culture. And he does it in a very uh
1:10:46biting way, but uh I'm I'm
1:10:49I he's evoking the spirit of the
1:10:51prophet, I think.
1:10:52>> Yeah. No, no, and I find that's
1:10:54interesting you mentioned that cuz I'm
1:10:55starting to find increasingly with the
1:10:57the the seemingly
1:10:59absolutely cynical, totally pessimistic,
1:11:01nihilistic, venomous
1:11:04social critics,
1:11:07the at some point you have to ask the
1:11:08question, "Why why are they so angry?
1:11:10Why are they so upset?" It's because
1:11:11they do care deeply about something.
1:11:14They're not truly nihilists. They're
1:11:15they're pissed off about something. And
1:11:17that that there is something at the core
1:11:19that they do care about.
1:11:21And to which they remain vulnerable.
1:11:24It's just not on on display or for sale
1:11:26right now.
1:11:27>> Yeah. Yeah, to be disillusioned is
1:11:29sometimes thinking is is like someone
1:11:32being lost, but no, they're seeing past
1:11:34the illusion of
1:11:36>> Yeah, if you're if you're truly
1:11:37disillusioned, you'd be too apathetic to
1:11:39write anything on the scale of Vonnegut.
1:11:41Or I'm I'm reminded of, you know, the
1:11:43stand-up of George Carlin. He He was a
1:11:45nihilist. He
1:11:46Nihilism doesn't feed that kind of
1:11:48energy.
1:11:49>> Yeah.
1:11:50Excellent. Well,
1:11:52uh well, then thank you, Chris. This is
1:11:55very um
1:11:56informative, very useful, um probably
1:11:59one of the more um instructive podcasts
1:12:03um
1:12:04I think um I've I've been able to have
1:12:06the opportunity to engage with. Um
1:12:09there's a lot to think about this. Um
1:12:12so, for uh especially for uh some of us
1:12:15instructors out there,
1:12:17hit me up. I would uh I would love to
1:12:20facilitate another podcast. If there's
1:12:22other avenues you you think we haven't
1:12:25really explored with fears writing, um
1:12:27and I could just be truly the
1:12:28facilitator and allow somebody else to
1:12:32to drive the wheel here, but uh
1:12:34uh I um I think we touched on a lot of
1:12:36fear, but there's probably other things
1:12:38that we um
1:12:40that we could have uh addressed as well.
1:12:42Um
1:12:44Oh, yeah.
1:12:44>> And for the And for the benefit of any
1:12:46uh faculty who remain in the audience,
1:12:47do you want to let them know what you
1:12:49titled this episode on the invite that
1:12:51you sent me
1:12:52individually?
1:12:54>> I think something to the effect of
1:12:56uh podcast that will end Dr. Nelson's
1:12:59career.
1:13:00>> Yeah, and that And that for two reasons
1:13:02would I think have probably become more
1:13:04obvious to the more astute among you.
1:13:06I've I've basically laid the groundwork
1:13:08for arguing that all education is
1:13:10essentially activism.
1:13:12So, don't lecture me about not being an
1:13:13activist.
1:13:14And I can I can see the day come third
1:13:18week of January
1:13:20when the syllabus report for my division
1:13:23in Concourse is 0%
1:13:26because the Nelson said not to have a
1:13:28syllabus.
1:13:30>> I don't think that's what you said.
1:13:31>> So then So it's been nice working with
1:13:33all of you.
1:13:35I love you all very much. Take care.
1:13:37>> Yeah.
1:13:38And yeah, my apologies to to leading
1:13:40your way out of this institution. No.
1:13:42No. But uh yeah. I post the uh the
1:13:46sign-in sheet so students can sign out
1:13:49once again. And for students that uh
1:13:51maybe missed the opportunity to sign in
1:13:53cuz we want to make sure uh yeah, you
1:13:55get credit for this if this is for extra
1:13:57credit uh for uh
1:13:59uh or for a an assignment.
1:14:02Um so that's there for you. So please
1:14:05do. If you're having trouble um signing
1:14:07in, please just put your name in the
1:14:09chat. Uh and also include your course
1:14:12and section number.
1:14:16Yeah.
1:14:16>> Thanks for this Sean. This has been fun.
1:14:18I hope
1:14:19I hope for all the fact of all the
1:14:21talking that I did that I was able to at
1:14:23least
1:14:24somehow model some of what Freire is
1:14:26trying to get us to do.
1:14:29>> Yeah, absolutely. Um my takeaway is I'm
1:14:33I'm just not going to prepare for for
1:14:35the spring semester. Yeah. Thank you.
1:14:38I'm I'm going to actually enjoy my
1:14:39winter break for once.
1:14:43Yeah. No. Yeah, no. Thank you very much.
1:14:45Thank you to all that are out there.
1:14:47I'll hang out a little bit if anybody's
1:14:48having issues with signing in or just
1:14:50has any questions. But uh let's
1:14:54let's call this. Let me make sure I stop
1:14:57the recording so we don't get a lot of
1:14:59dead air coming

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