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"A Criminal Injustice" part 2 of 2 - The Marty Tankleff Story (tcbradio interview audio only) — Transcript

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0:16[Music]
0:26iction
0:28infection
0:31wow greetings everybody welcome back to
0:33taking care of business last week we had
0:37such a great show with jel Peter and
0:40Rick firstman not frisman he's somebody
0:42else and not Rick Freedman either um
0:45that we we actually got them to SLE back
0:49to the station and do another show so
0:51thank you guys for coming back it's
0:52almost like we never left you know what
0:54you know it's like it's like game
0:56shows when you when you record like you
0:58know 5 hours in a row you got yourself a
1:01week um in case you guys don't know uh
1:04who who are out there listening these
1:06gentlemen are uh the authors of a
1:09phenomenal book called a criminal
1:11Injustice published by Random House it
1:15it's not just a book about a wrongful
1:18conviction and the resurrection of a
1:20life and the trial system it it's about
1:23the human struggle it's about
1:26persistence it's about hope it's about
1:29despair it's about digging and digging
1:32and digging and you know a lot of times
1:35people don't feel that it's not worth
1:37the effort well these guys went through
1:41a heroic effort a truly heroic effort
1:44swimming against the tide carrying
1:46Boulders uphill walking on glass and
1:49fire to to release a man who is in jail
1:52for over 6,000 days and and give him
1:55something that that we take for granted
1:57our freedom and our Liberty so so
1:59welcome to our show and last week we
2:02talked about so many cool things that I
2:04felt that there
2:05was another at least another hour out
2:08there to talk about so again Paul
2:10solon's our co-host uh thanks Paul Jay
2:13and Rich thanks so I gota ask we just
2:15pick up where we left off and if you're
2:16listening on tcbr radio.com or tcbr r.m
2:20podcast.com or at a criminal injustice.
2:24comom on the website somewhere uh we
2:27love your feedback we love your
2:28information so J you're hired to handle
2:31an investigation and during the
2:34investigation you have the miracle and I
2:37guess that's the right word the miracle
2:39of actually holding in your hands at the
2:42crime scene the murder weapon what was
2:45that like it was an amazing find and you
2:48know to to me it was very emotional the
2:51whole case to me has become emotional
2:53everything since finding the first
2:56witness Glenn Harris who led me to the
2:58pipe uh it's been emotional so to
3:01actually be told where a pipe was thrown
3:05possibly 17 years prior and to actually
3:08go out and find it was amazing now when
3:12we found the pipe it it was in the
3:14property of a family that has a lot of
3:17land and they never had this area
3:20cleaned so they gave us permission I
3:23hired a crime scene fellow from the New
3:25York Police Department I retired and we
3:28you know we got a metal detector and uh
3:31the the finding of the pipe was the most
3:33amazing thing too while Charlie H was
3:35out there looking with the metal
3:37detector you know it was a morning had a
3:39couple of cups of coffee I took a little
3:41walk on the property and uh while
3:44relieving myself I I looked down and uh
3:47I found a pipe and this was the pipe did
3:52did it hit you right away this was the
3:54the pipe or did it I mean what was like
3:56you were looking and it did it Dawn on
3:59you was or was was it like a a wow kind
4:01of moment or it was like deductive thing
4:03no I you know I felt this was the pipe
4:05because we were all over the property
4:07and so far there were no other pipes and
4:10until I walked and it's what the pipe
4:12looked like now when the pipe was
4:14recovered we sent it out to Barry shek's
4:17lab out in uh you know California and
4:21basically you know unfortunately there
4:23was no DNA on it because it's been
4:25weathered for so many years but it was
4:28consistent to the fact that this pipe
4:31was out there 17 years it was pitted and
4:34the the test that they did we were on
4:36the money wow that's got to be an
4:39amazing thing oh it was it and that's
4:42when we started our hearing the 440
4:44hearing that was a little uh you know
4:46that started off the hearing and it was
4:48like a bombshell announcement to the
4:50press and to the court that we recovered
4:53the weapon unfortunately the District
4:55Attorney's Office who we notified and
4:58you know I was ordered by the attorney
4:59attorneys not to move the pipe to leave
5:01it there and what we did we secured it
5:05they never came the day that I found it
5:08they never came the next day never
5:10responded you know when they responded
5:13about 5 months later that's when they
5:15came you must have been standing there a
5:16long time yes I love the spot but that's
5:20that's when they actually uh you know
5:22came back to look at where we found the
5:25pipe but not the actual pipe for you was
5:27that the
5:28most pivotal moment for you as an
5:31investigator or were there other moments
5:33where you got some testimony or
5:35something else that really jolted things
5:38there was well a couple of moments the
5:41main moment to me I think is what
5:43started this whole case that brought it
5:45back into court you know that I found
5:47Glenn Harris I found Glenn Harris who
5:50subsequently beca was the driver of the
5:52car I did some history when I was you
5:55know looking at the case when Bob Godley
5:58Godly buil who was m first trial
6:00attorney gave me the opportunity to come
6:01to his office and look at the case and
6:04this was before I decided to take the
6:05case when I went to his office and
6:07looked at the case and and read what was
6:10in there I said you know what this is
6:11missing something you know what it was
6:13missing it was missing an
6:15investigation this kid is sitting in
6:17jail and and if there was anything that
6:19I could do for him I had to give him the
6:22opportunity to finally get the murder of
6:25his parents case
6:27investigated and I you know looking
6:29through the papers and I'm going to jump
6:31to it I found a gentleman by the name of
6:33Glenn Harris who is an associate of Joe
6:36cron now Joe creedon basically will
6:39become and is the murder of Seymour is
6:41one of the murders of Seymour and Arley
6:43tankleff I found Glenn Harris and
6:46amazingly he was in prison and I started
6:49a pen pal relationship with this lunatic
6:53you know he was a really crazy guy but
6:55he was unbelievable I went to see him
6:58and you know I said to him Glenn before
7:00I come up to visit you I if you don't
7:03have anything please don't bring me all
7:05the way up there he said Jay come on up
7:08you might be right so I went up there
7:10with the expectations of possibly just
7:13getting some information maybe Joe
7:15creeden told him something and it it was
7:18quite a trip I I took Glenn's mother who
7:21was a former IRS agent and who was very
7:23you know cordial to me uh we went up we
7:27stopped to get our hair done and in a in
7:29a barber shop in Bayside and then we
7:32went up to the trip to and it was quite
7:34a long trip and when I got to meet Glenn
7:37this is the moment that you asked Glenn
7:39Harris when I met him told me that he
7:42was the driver of the car that brought
7:44Peter Kent and Joe cron the night of of
7:47the incident and the murderers of
7:49Seymour and Arley
7:50tankleff but I you know at that point
7:53there was like mindboggling I'm
7:55expecting to he well Joe creedon told me
7:57he was there this is the guy that drove
7:59the car car nobody knew this nobody you
8:02know was mty in jail and here we have
8:04the first actual person that I
8:07interviewed you know that might have
8:09been Associated or had some information
8:11is the driver of the car what what made
8:14people come
8:16forward was it was it their conscience
8:20was it the fact that an innocent man man
8:22was in jail was it your persistence was
8:25it a domino effect where one guy kind of
8:28led the way so the people I think it was
8:31an accumulation of many things like
8:33Glenn Harris when when the murder
8:35happened you know he sat in the car he
8:38never claimed to had gone in he thought
8:39he was going there for burglary and
8:41unfortunately he knew when you know the
8:44guys came out that something was wrong
8:45they they weren't coming out with items
8:47from a burglary and he heard it the next
8:50morning so he couldn't come forward at
8:52that time because he was on Parole and
8:54it's something that stayed with him
8:57until he had the opportunity now Glenn
8:59Harris is an outright career criminal
9:02drug addict thief in all his crimes he's
9:05been in and out of jail never once laid
9:07a hand on a person but as for the other
9:10Witnesses many times people say Jay you
9:12did a great job wow you know and I'm
9:15going to say the attorneys too but they
9:16say Jay what a job you want investigator
9:18you're like the hero not true the people
9:22that came forward the Witnesses in this
9:25case 20 plus Witnesses who came forward
9:29on their own after you know I found them
9:31or they they contacted us they came and
9:34testified to help Marty become free and
9:39we could not offer them immunity we
9:41could not you know uh protect them there
9:43was nothing we could do and all that
9:45happened to these people where they came
9:47in to an American courthouse in suffa
9:50County a priest a nun Joe creedon's
9:55actual son Joe Jr who Joe Creed
9:58admitting to to being a participant in
9:59the murder uh a fellow by the name of
10:02Joe Gren Joe Gren was part of the first
10:06time that they attempted to kill Seymour
10:08tankleff unfortunately it was a Mis hit
10:12and then you know there was another try
10:14where they succeeded but Joe gron came
10:16forward and to told us that you know it
10:19was supposed to be a robbery like I said
10:22in in your past show that that tankleff
10:25was owed a lot of money by Jerry stuman
10:27he would pick up the money on his son
10:29night they were to be there waiting to
10:31make it look like a robbery when he
10:33would came out they were going to kill
10:34him take the money which was going to be
10:36Gren pot and ceden pot and that's and
10:40Jerry Stow was behind that we had uh you
10:43know we had Scott glass we had a
10:46multitude of witnesses that came forward
10:48and all they did were became humiliated
10:51by the suffa County district attorney
10:53that they were nefarious Scoundrels
10:54Misfits by the the judge would say this
10:57and so would the district attorney and I
10:58think rck could fill you in on some of
11:00that
11:01too yeah you know you talk about Jay
11:03said that that he couldn't U the defense
11:07team couldn't offer people anything they
11:09also couldn't intimidate people and
11:12there was a guy Jay just mentioned uh
11:14Brian Scott glass who um Jay went and
11:18found because he he'd heard his name
11:21come up as another of these uh
11:23characters from that Seldon crowd you
11:25know with ceden and Kent um and he he
11:29tried to spent months trying to find him
11:31uh finally was able to connect with him
11:34and glass came in and and spoke to Jay
11:37and the attorneys and said that he had
11:40been offered this work I'm putting my
11:42little fingers up in quote marks uh the
11:45work of of killing the tank lfts um and
11:48then he had uh declined the work and
11:51passed it on to Joe
11:52cedon uh the an Outsourcing yeah right
11:57what we found out later was that that uh
12:00that that uh glass didn't have the
12:02stomach for something like that um but
12:06uh he was willing to come into court the
12:09next day actually and testify to that
12:12the next day comes and glass is nowhere
12:15to be found and which is what uh Jay was
12:18was was fearful of because he thought
12:21that glass uh was not going to come into
12:24court and uh unless he's watched him
12:27overnight in a hotel room
12:30what happened was that glass disappears
12:34he reappears several months later and
12:37now is changed the story and claims that
12:40he made it all up he was just kidding
12:43around what happened in between was that
12:46glass had a pending uh uh armed robbery
12:49charge and would have been a would have
12:51been a a third felony and would have
12:53sent him up state for 20 could have been
12:55for 25 years and suddenly
13:00glass changes his mind says that he was
13:03just kidding when he said that and that
13:05charge
13:07disappears and so lucky coincidence well
13:11not only that what was amazing when he
13:12came to us he also wanted an attorney
13:15and as I said we could offer our
13:16Witnesses zero he wanted an attorney
13:20because he knew that the police were
13:21looking for him he had no money for an
13:23attorney who was his attorney Rick his
13:27attorney turned out to be
13:29uh the son of a federal judge Leonard
13:32Wexler William Wexler is the
13:34son uh Wexler Jr is a pretty major
13:38attorney in suffa County big cases big
13:41fees Scott glass is a street street
13:45criminal with not a penny to his name
13:47and he winds up with this big deal
13:49lawyer who's by the way uh sheriff's
13:52office space with the judge's father and
13:55the head of the democratic party uh who
13:57can't make this stuff up
13:59so the con connections continue across
14:01the week that we've been uh since we
14:04started talking about this so I gota ask
14:06you some Dynamics about the book oh by
14:09the way you're listening to taken care
14:10of business tcbr radio.com 89.7 FM wcwp
14:14broadcasting from the Abrams
14:15communication on the campus of CW post
14:17College thank you for listening if you
14:19want to send us an email TCB radio wcwp
14:22at yahoo.com all right so when you when
14:25you had a you know I I wrot I was
14:27fortunate enough to write aook book and
14:29get published and all this other stuff
14:31and it took me 3 years to write my book
14:33and my book is like a third of the size
14:34of your book and your book has detail
14:38and nuance and fact and context the
14:42little stories you talk about um
14:45personal stories about things that you
14:46did in your career Jay and how did you
14:50you know just you know every book starts
14:52the same either a blank computer screen
14:54or a blank pad how how did you go from
14:58zero to a wealth of information and yet
15:01I I had the feeling after I read the
15:02book that you could have written more if
15:04you wanted to well in fact there was
15:08more it's U that that had to be cut
15:11because you know you really can't
15:12publish how many pages cut rck well well
15:15I cut I don't want to well I'll say
15:1760,000 words I cut to get down to the
15:20book which is still pretty big so this
15:22is the size of
15:23exodus by yours but uh I thought you you
15:27said every book starts the same I going
15:29to say you know it was a dark and stormy
15:30night but um no I me I meant you know
15:33you know the road of 10,000 steps starts
15:35with with but one and you know how did
15:38you get from the the first step to the
15:4010,000th step I mean you have pictures I
15:44mean you must have had to corroborate
15:45transcripts and notes and it was just
15:49accumulating I mean there's sort of this
15:51two parts to the the material and one is
15:54the the original case so there were you
15:57know thousands of pages of a transcript
15:59from the the trial the pre-trial
16:00hearings the
16:02appeals um all kinds of documents police
16:06reports um and then there's then there's
16:08the the reinvestigation which is Jay's
16:10part which which um you know came out of
16:15a combination of came out of Jay's head
16:17in terms of his memory of of relating
16:20things that uh that happened before we
16:23got together and then at that point kind
16:26of just being with Jay along it him
16:29really uh for the next 2 three years and
16:32talking and just and I'm you know always
16:34keeping notes of you know what's going
16:36on and um so it it was just
16:40accumulating um material upon material
16:44and uh and then trying to figure out how
16:46to uh make it coherent did did you guys
16:49ever have like a documentary in process
16:52as you were doing like the last couple
16:54of years did you have people videotaping
16:56things for you and following you guys
16:58around
16:59no wow that would have been cool
17:00wouldn't it it would be impossible to in
17:03to investigate this case you know prior
17:05to Monty's release with with lights
17:07cameras and action well the closest the
17:09closest thing 48 hours 48 hours did
17:12really really good work on this uh they
17:15did what four segment they they would
17:18they had a base the first one they did
17:20and then they would they would do it
17:22every time there was something new to
17:23update they would run it again with some
17:26new stuff and then the all the earlier
17:28stuff so um they had they were with Jay
17:33in Florida when he was uh looking for a
17:36couple Witnesses so they kind of had
17:37that sort of you know the detective on
17:39the case um footage and um uh so that
17:44was you know you got a little sense of
17:45what what it's like to be Jay you know
17:47with the the shorts and sandals in
17:49Florida right my suit and tie right what
17:51was Marty's family like because it looks
17:54like they they were very supportive um
17:57what did they do to help support the
17:59case I know that they did uh they wrote
18:01letters and they they did a lot of
18:03things in court and they always said
18:04that they were going to fight for his
18:06freedom what were they like especially
18:08considering that um the main part of the
18:10family which is the mother and the
18:11father were murdered right well I I have
18:13to tell you know when you speak of Mar's
18:15family and and knowing them now for
18:17close to eight or nine years and the the
18:21you know when you when you watch
18:22television shows police shows on TV you
18:26know and people come up to me wow is it
18:27like this is it like that you cannot
18:30recreate life you cannot recreate
18:33emotion of what you know I went through
18:36the attorneys went through and the
18:39family I look at a lot of members of
18:41Mar's family now as my family I mean
18:44there's a bond between us we cried
18:47together we we celebrated together on on
18:49his release we we knew failure we knew
18:52Victory he's got a wonderful family
18:55that's I mean the support that they gave
18:57Marty I mean you have to understand it
18:59it still costs money to to have a family
19:01me member in prison I mean stamps alone
19:05I'm telling you how many letters he
19:06wrote you know where do you think those
19:08stamps came from phone calls you know
19:11reverse charges to call family members
19:14over all those years you know the
19:16expense Factor but most of all to Marty
19:19he was the emotional the emotions of his
19:21family backing him that's what you know
19:25helped Marty you know gain his freedom
19:28it in terms of the okay let's let's talk
19:29a little bit about the Innocence Project
19:30because in the last hour we really
19:31couldn't what what is the innocent
19:33project what is the Innocence Project
19:36who is it there
19:38for
19:40and how could people help the Innocence
19:43Project as members of either the legal
19:45Community the regular Community
19:46journalists or the like the Innocence
19:49Project is there for the people that mty
19:52left behind in prison you know as as a
19:55former detective I've come to terms now
19:58work working in the private sector as a
19:59private investigator that you know what
20:02mistakes happen we're seeing it more and
20:04more I mean look at Barry Sheek in the
20:06who I work with uh you know in his
20:09Innocence Project where
20:12approximately if you take a hundred
20:14people that have been released from
20:15Barry's group 25% that have been freed
20:19on DNA that said they didn't do the
20:22crime 25% of those confess to the crime
20:26so that tells you something's going on
20:28the unfortunately in the squad rooms
20:30either by mistakes or the heart or you
20:32know it there there are people in jail
20:34that shouldn't be in there and that's
20:36what the Innocence Project is for you
20:38know it's my letters you know they come
20:41to you know like Mar wrote to me now
20:43they're coming to me through Marty and
20:45my own our own innocence group The
20:48Fortress innocence group and we get tons
20:50of them not only us I mean Barry sheets
20:53and there are other you know throughout
20:55the states the 50 states there are
20:57innocence groups
20:58and it happens and we look at these
21:01letters we go go through them carefully
21:04if I feel that there might be something
21:05there we send them an application it's a
21:0822-page questionnaire and they're going
21:10to have to pass that test before I'm
21:12going to go myself and Marty to put
21:14ourselves on the line and try to sell
21:16that to a major law firm with their pro
21:18bono groups to pay our fees you know
21:22which a discount and investigative fees
21:24you know to hopefully help these people
21:26get out and I'll tell you something it's
21:28the hardest thing in the world to do
21:30once a person is convicted to get them
21:32out and especially without DNA and
21:34that's how Marty came out and you have
21:36to understand now DNA and Barry's group
21:39I mean it's going to dwindle down you
21:42know now the the detectives and police
21:44departments the FBI they they take DNA
21:47so the people now that are there prior
21:50to DNA it's it's almost exhausted so
21:53it's really the the new innocence groups
21:56and projects are going to be in
21:58investigative projects trying to get
21:59people out on cases that were
22:01unfortunately you know poorly
22:03investigated let's talk about you want
22:05to say something on on the DNA I think
22:07you know one byproduct of is that uh
22:10it's raised the bar on cases so that now
22:14everybody ex you got to have DNA to to
22:18to uh get somebody out of prison who's
22:20innocent and you know here's a case
22:22where there was no DNA to to use and see
22:25how hard in seven years now part of it
22:27was you know what was going on in suffa
22:29County but uh it there for all the cases
22:33where there's not DNA now they've got to
22:34face well where's the DNA I'm not going
22:36to believe anything unless there's some
22:38DNA proof I noticed in the book that you
22:41talk a lot about lie detector tests and
22:44that's really something that us lawyers
22:46don't really come into contact with and
22:48it's I guess for the general public all
22:50they see is on TV I know that um
22:53polygraphs were used in your
22:55investigation I'd like you to talk about
22:57both in terms of the the investigation
22:59and in terms of the Innocence Project do
23:01you actually after they fill out their
23:0322-page questionnaire do they ask to go
23:05through another hurdle of passing a lie
23:06detector test in order to really keep
23:09you guys in the loop I love the
23:11polygraph we as we all know it's not you
23:13know it's not admissible in court but as
23:15an investigator and it's been said many
23:17times it's a great investigator's tool
23:20and and the misconception with
23:22polygraphs it's basically who gives a
23:24polygraph and I think one of the reasons
23:26why it's not admissible in courot
23:28because there's very few controls over
23:29it I I should I should point out that
23:31actually there there it's it's usually
23:34not but there are cases where it has
23:36been admissible so there is a little bit
23:38of a in appeals in in motions I not more
23:42is it the kind of thing where if you
23:43fail that becomes admissible but if if
23:45you pass your well that depends on who
23:48knows who's if the person's getting the
23:49polygraph but but to go back to your
23:51question I every you know when when my
23:55gank came into this case and I knew that
23:57we found Glen Harris that we're going to
23:59have you know I did due diligence on my
24:02Witnesses Monty tankleff was polygraphed
24:04on September 11th before you know I
24:07really put my heart into it Mar you
24:09going to get a polygraph past 911 Glenn
24:12Harris the driver of the car passed
24:15Colleen Kovac who gave us some crucial
24:18information took a polygraph
24:21passed that gave us and myself the
24:24abilities to know that you know I have
24:26confidence in this case and I knew the
24:28suffk District Attorney's office is
24:30going to try to beat the hell out of me
24:32and these Witnesses and and to M's
24:34defense team they put me through hell
24:37before I would before I could have a
24:39witness I had to do a strong due
24:41diligence on everything that they said
24:43really had to be corroborated and to
24:45their credit now one of our Witnesses I
24:48don't believe was ever found to be a
24:50liar well I remember reading in the book
24:52that you gave a statistic about the
24:55number of people who are willing to give
24:58polygraphs was indicative that that they
25:00probably were telling the truth it was
25:02like a high percentage of something like
25:03I don't remember the statistic they're
25:04actually uh it's actually in in um a one
25:07of the police um the main sort of the
25:11Bible of of
25:13interrogations uh cites a figure that
25:16that that uh you know indicating that um
25:20suspects who volunteer to take a
25:24polygraph tend to be innocent and do you
25:27know who you know requested to take a
25:30polygraph who Monty tankleff the day
25:32that he was in the room with James mccre
25:35he asked to take a polygraph M mccre
25:38denied his request and on 48 hours while
25:41being interviewed by eron moriarity
25:44about that well about the polygraph he
25:45says well I'm better than a polygraph
25:48really yeah yeah yeah yeah a great tool
25:51I mean Jay is when he was a detective
25:53you know you've you've talked about this
25:55how it's it's just a it's a it's a tool
25:57you know if you want to if you're if you
25:59are a a a competent honorable detective
26:03you want to know the truth so why not do
26:06that I mean I don't know you know you're
26:07telling me the sky is blue I mean I
26:10could believe you I could say you're
26:11lying I don't know I so the polygraph
26:15basically will give me the opportunity
26:17to know if you're lying or telling the
26:19truth now if you're coming in here for a
26:22robbery and I think it did the robbery
26:25and then you're telling me no no no no
26:27and then I put you on the polygraph oh
26:29I'll take the PO and you failed it gives
26:31me the confidence to go further with you
26:34all right to keep going that I think I'm
26:36on the right track and many times if a
26:39person fails the polygraph and you tell
26:41them they'll concede C can you beat a
26:44polygraph if you're a good enough liar
26:48pathologically and how much does the
26:50polygraph depend on who's giving it cuz
26:53will there be interoperator variability
26:55I I I think you know the answer to a
26:57question would have to be answered by
27:00like who IU's Joel reik or who gives a
27:02polygraph but uh you know as to yes I
27:06think it depends on who's giving the
27:08polygraph you know you know that that's
27:11why the controls of you could take a
27:14course the Apex course and come out and
27:16you're a polygraph operator Joel reer
27:18who does a lot of our polygraphs also
27:21does polygraphs and teachers for the
27:23United States defense department I mean
27:25the guy is impeccable he will not play
27:29he's straight as an arrow you pass you
27:31passed you failed you are you're the
27:33lion and Joel rer to his credit is one
27:37of the best and I feel confident if I
27:40would get a young detective or a young
27:42person just out of school I don't know
27:44their experience and and I and I think
27:47you know it really does depend on on the
27:50expertise and and the experience of the
27:52operator I I noticed when in the book
27:55that it seems that and and correct me if
27:58I'm wrong that when you the polygraphs
27:59were administered they only asked like
28:01three or four questions was it really
28:03that short of a an exam or was that just
28:05more of the snippet well that's how
28:06polygraphs are given you you know you
28:08see sometimes in television or some
28:10comedies or whatever they're asking them
28:1230 questions yeah you have like control
28:15questions you have control questions
28:17like your date of birth so you know he
28:20could these are pre-tested question so
28:21he he's going to read if you're lying or
28:23not because you you know he knows your
28:25date of birth and do you know that
28:27before you when you before you take the
28:29polygraph test you're going to know the
28:31questions these are not surprise
28:33questions and you really have you know
28:35you can't ask numerous questions do you
28:39have knowledge of the crime did you
28:41commit the
28:42crime Cas you know questions like that
28:45just to keep them in and the the
28:47polygraph operator I'll mention name
28:49Joel rer will go over the questions with
28:52the subject it's not a surprise what I
28:55got to ask this question more been
28:57curiosity but after the person takes the
29:00polygraph does he actually find out the
29:03results
29:05no well I'll tell you why because Joel
29:07rer and many other polygraph operators
29:10have to read the tests there's there's
29:13like three of they they they just don't
29:15do at one time they do it a couple of
29:17tests and does he know yes he knows but
29:21legally he has to read the test you will
29:24find out maybe within a couple hours or
29:26the next day but Joel and many other
29:29operators will not just tell you how you
29:30did immediately no they'll tell you but
29:33will they tell the person will they tell
29:34the subject no no first of all that's
29:36not their job to tell the subject it's
29:38my it's their job to tell me and how I
29:41want to handle or when I want to tell
29:43the person which will benefit my
29:45investigation that's when you're going
29:47to find out you passed or failed W you
29:49were listening to taking care of
29:50business on tcbr radio.com 89.7 FM wcwp
29:55and my guests and my co-host is Paul
29:58Solomon and my guests are the authors of
30:01a criminal Injustice it's the story of
30:04Marty tof's um rescue uh from from
30:09pretty much uh a life sentence um I
30:12noticed that you guys talk a lot about
30:1548 Hours Dr Phil and some other media
30:19events that happened before the you know
30:22the book was published could you talk a
30:23little bit about that and and some of
30:25the significance of those events
30:27especially maybe like the Dr Phil um
30:29show where uh there was some surprise
30:32information that may have come up or
30:34everybody kind of looked at their notes
30:35afterwards and they like is that you
30:37know like that kind of stuff I'll start
30:39with it and I'll let Rick finish
30:41it the media one of the reasons why
30:44Marty is out today is because Marty had
30:47a terrific Public public relations group
30:50behind him uh Lonnie sui Rick fredman he
30:53put this case out there the case
30:56multiple times was on 48 Hours it was on
30:59Dr Phil and every time we AED new
31:02Witnesses or new people came forward to
31:04me or on the tip line and I I'll let
31:07Rick finish the rest of the question on
31:09on the benefit of this for please give
31:11the tipline phone number again for our
31:13audience uh
31:1471857
31:164183 completely confidential everything
31:19is will be confidential all right cool
31:22have you got any uh tips recently uh
31:24since the book was published no okay no
31:28but I'll I'll tell you why though I mean
31:30because Marty is out since the book is
31:33published but you know if you know this
31:35week the Mar's uh Barry Sheek who's now
31:38Marty's attorney we filed he filed a
31:41civil case so once again the case is out
31:44there and Mar is aggressively going to
31:46pursue you know the murder of his
31:48parents and I'm still the investigator
31:50in the case and uh the line has never
31:53been closed and will be open until Peter
31:56Kent Joe creedon Jerry stowman and Glenn
31:59Harris are arrested oh Rick you going to
32:02say something yeah I I an example of uh
32:06how the coverage actually led to a
32:09witness coming forward uh Court TV had a
32:14another private investigator named Jerry
32:16Palace did a uh had a documentary series
32:19called um I think it was called an
32:21innocent man question mark and so he did
32:24he did um a film on on the Marty tank
32:28case and we were talking earlier about
32:31how Jerry Sturman The Bagel King who was
32:36behind the murders because of the debt
32:37he owed to Marty's father um how he was
32:41friends had a relationship with the lead
32:43detective James mccre that was hidden
32:46because mccre
32:48testified at the original trial that he
32:51never he never met stman didn't know him
32:53had never Li never even heard of him um
32:58um when when this court TV segment aired
33:01I think it was in around two
33:032002
33:05um he he thought there was something
33:08strange about mccre and stewman did did
33:11they know each other and in in one of
33:14these kind of
33:15voiceovers he they show him going to see
33:18mccre and interviewing him and as he
33:20leaves they have a voice over he says he
33:23says I wondered if there was more of a
33:25connection between Sturman and
33:28mccre so um a guy named Leonard leano in
33:32suffa County was watching that and he
33:35knew there was a connection between
33:37Jerry Sturman and James mccre and he
33:40wound up coming forward to talk about it
33:43after seeing that so that was a case
33:46where where some of the publicity really
33:48triggered some some serious information
33:50and a classic moment because Lenny leano
33:52owns a pizzeria and when he came to
33:55court to testify at our 440 hearing he
33:57was literally in his pizza uniform wow
34:00right testifying on the stand in terms
34:03of uh Seymour cuz this is he he seems
34:06like a very interesting
34:08Persona did did he ever do anything to
34:11protect himself or did he did he feel
34:14that he had risk out there I mean you
34:16talk about the Parker game and money and
34:19Loans I mean there's this this whole
34:21part of that yeah it's it's an it is an
34:24interesting question because and it's
34:26ambiguous because we we it seems that
34:29there was some fear that there was
34:31discussion in the family Marty and his
34:33parents that there there was talk of um
34:37you know of Sturman threatening because
34:39there was so much there was a lot of
34:41fighting going on and pressure and back
34:43and forth um and uh so people ask then
34:47then then why would he let stewman into
34:49the house now this was a poker game
34:51there were eight guys so I would imagine
34:54that he felt safe you know there eight
34:55guys St was the last to leave and I yeah
34:59really seem we let his guard down
35:01because uh what seems to have happened
35:03is that stewman uh actually was out in
35:06his car in the driveway and let the the
35:10other the last other person go out out
35:13the driveway and Sturman seems to have
35:16gone back in the house and then let you
35:19know signal to uh cedon and Kent to come
35:22in so uh you know he he he probably
35:25could have protected himself
35:27better did when in your investigation
35:30did you do like a whole crime scene
35:32layout and and try to for the court
35:35system reanimate what actually happened
35:39under your theory of the case no no no I
35:43I looked at you know the the trial and
35:45and some of the evidence at the trial
35:47and that was the beginning of my
35:49investigation I mean if you look at the
35:51trial there was no evidence that you
35:53know Marty was convicted true but there
35:55was no evidence
35:57there you know forensic evidence or
35:59except for this confession so my my
36:01focus here was to find people that knew
36:04what happened in that house uh people
36:06that might have known the murderers and
36:08I hit a I I hit a home run with Glenn
36:10Harris and it opened up the door for me
36:13to finally actually know to a degree
36:16what happened in that
36:17house in in the very
36:20last um when you were in the Brooklyn
36:22appeals part of the case did you have
36:26hope that that was going to be the
36:27Turning Point given all the setbacks and
36:29disappointments before or you just kind
36:32of you know sometimes they tell you it's
36:33a strategy don't be too hopeful because
36:36then you won't be crushed well it was a
36:38lot of fear there because this was going
36:40to be our last shot I mean we we lost in
36:43suffa County with all this evidence we
36:45we we lost so the appell at CT was going
36:48to be our last day but I I'll tell you
36:51it it was an amazing day we had Steve
36:53brogger who was a phenomenal attorney
36:56that did the one of the arguments on the
36:58new evidence and he just blew lonard Leo
37:01away because Steve brocka spoke the
37:03truth to suff District Attorney's Office
37:05lato looked totally ridiculous he was
37:07like a laughing stock with his argument
37:10before the
37:12appelit was there any attempts for
37:15either a pardon either on the state
37:17level or on the federal level or to
37:19commute the sentence or I mean did they
37:21try that track too not that I know of
37:23not that I know of no and you know
37:26pardon would would be you know kind of
37:28an admission of guilt so uh you know
37:31there's I don't think any reason you
37:33know to go down that road I mean there
37:35was uh you know this is this was the the
37:38the best shot and um you know as long as
37:41there was any justice in the world I
37:42think there was reason for Marty and his
37:45family and the attorneys to be
37:47optimistic about the Appel division
37:49because you know it was once it was
37:51taken out of suffa County uh you take
37:54that whole factor out of it and these
37:55are real you know these are serious
37:58judges and and that that hope you know
38:01was was confirmed I I actually remember
38:03being in front of the appell division
38:05because um I had an appeal there once
38:08and I was about I was about to get up
38:10and and one of the judges said you know
38:12you don't really need to say
38:14anything because because I we actually
38:17had a really good shot at what we were
38:18doing and I just said I need to just say
38:20something for 15 seconds just to justify
38:22my
38:23appearance but they were they were very
38:25sharp they had read all the p
38:27that's I couldn't believe that it's a
38:28really different experience when you go
38:30to the Appel Division I have to tell you
38:31right well there there were you know
38:33they they say don't the lawyer always
38:35saying don't don't um assume anything
38:38from the judge's questions you know that
38:40it means they're leaning one way or the
38:41other but I think in this case you could
38:44you know there were things that were
38:45seemed so clear that they were how they
38:48were going to rule or how they were
38:49feeling you know one of the judges uh
38:52well well lato the the assistant DA uh
38:56talked talked about the witnesses being
38:59not credible because they were they
39:01were into drugs and they had been
39:03imprisoned some of these some of the
39:05people in this crowd Who would know what
39:07happened are not good
39:09guys
39:11um and one of the judges challenged him
39:14and said well Mr lato you use people
39:17like that all the time as a
39:19prosecutor isn't that right and and so
39:22you know sort of knocking that argument
39:24down and you talk about the judges
39:26reading everything this was this they
39:28had a lot to read I mean I mean Tangled
39:29with papers over how many years you know
39:32thousands of the transcripts and and and
39:34that that same judge uh you know new new
39:39new details and we were talking about
39:40the knife and he said it would turned
39:42out to be it was watermelon on that
39:44knife didn't it you know so things like
39:46that sort of indicated that where they
39:48were they were they were educated in
39:50terms of financing all the expenses were
39:54there fundraisers how you know I mean a
39:56family can only afford so much and I
39:58guess is you can only volunteer so much
40:01that there must have been crushing
40:02expenses in terms of just travel and
40:04forensics and you know time the expenses
40:07were picked up by Baker Bots I mean all
40:10the lawyers on Marty's case including
40:13myself work pro bono I mean an amazing
40:16amount of money when I had to travel you
40:18know to go I had to travel to Florida
40:20couple of times I had other trips to
40:22interview Witnesses it was always paid
40:24by Steve Broger and and aot to that
40:27credit so the family I mean you know
40:30thank God mty found you know a group of
40:33attorneys and that's what the Fortress
40:34group does too to find attorneys that
40:37will will basically pay for your
40:39investigation do you know what a uh as
40:41an attorney could you imagine his legal
40:44bills what they would have been well
40:46considering that he was in jail for 17
40:48years 17 years of billing with vendors
40:51process servers investigations the
40:54copies cop filing Fe
40:56typing you know and you just hit on
40:59something about 17 years I mean this
41:01wasn't a case of okay he's convicted he
41:03goes to prison and then 17 years later
41:06he has an appeal this was this never
41:09ended this is really 20 years from you
41:12know 1988 2008 20 years of endless
41:16there's always something happened there
41:18was always an appeal in the works even
41:20the when the last appeals uh you know
41:23the Last Hope was even the Supreme Court
41:25in 1999 or 2000 and then
41:29immediately you know when that's over
41:31that's when the letters to to
41:33investigator starts and one of them
41:35going to Jay and Jay starting and then
41:37of course seven years of solid you know
41:39investigation leading to these appeals
41:41did you live and breathe this case did
41:43you work on anything else well I lived
41:45and breathed this case and it I honestly
41:48it affected you know some of my other
41:50business you know because my life was
41:52this case I mean I had many other cases
41:55but my interest was was in Marty I mean
41:57once you become part of this you become
41:59addicted to this case and you know I
42:02never just from reading the book I was
42:04yeah my family life was affected and to
42:07their credit the support that they gave
42:08me like I said you don't know what
42:11you're dealing with until you work one
42:13of these cases who with the group of
42:15characters and witnesses that we had you
42:18know but the witnesses I never you know
42:20never felt threatened with some of these
42:22Witnesses or even the murderers I was
42:23more frightened and the people that
42:25almost put me in the hospital with the
42:27District Attorney's
42:29office if you can give me a number how
42:31many physical bodies worked on the case
42:35in terms of lawyers pargal secretaries
42:37investigation investigation support I
42:39don't know photographers Messengers I
42:41mean you know do you have like was was
42:43more than 125 people I would say Mar's
42:46attorneys I mean with all the the firms
42:49and the support staff of the attorneys
42:51that he had would have to be you know
42:53and I'm just guessing yeah I think the
42:55attorneys
42:57um probably numbered a couple of dozen
43:00as far as you know just having any even
43:02a small piece but the the final appeals
43:06which which really had only the major
43:07attorneys I think there were 11 named
43:12wow and these were all at big big
43:15firms um that's the thing about it
43:17people you know
43:19lawyers obviously
43:21Jay but but but but you know lawyers
43:24would would get into this and they
43:27couldn't let go and even when they you
43:29know they would move to a different firm
43:31they'd still be part of it you know
43:33years later because there was something
43:35about this that was such such an
43:38injustice and it was so
43:40clear and and I think Marty again you
43:43know was able to sort of keep people in
43:44it that never nobody it's the case
43:46nobody ever left and I got I had as a
43:48writer I felt it in my you know writer's
43:51way and journalist um that it became you
43:56know just so consuming because of the
43:58you know as a story there was just you
44:00couldn't believe every corner you turned
44:03there was something else that was
44:04incredible is there any part of the
44:06story up to now that you still feel is
44:09missing as far as a piece or information
44:12or do you think you have it all pretty
44:14much understood up to where it is today
44:17I think we have it pretty much
44:18understood I think we're we're right on
44:20the money with Who's involved but we we
44:23we need unfortunately to get a little
44:25more over the hill
44:26you know the such as such as well I
44:29think we're going to need a little more
44:30evidence on Jerry stowman uh it would
44:32have been nice and it could have been
44:34done uh Peter Kent who is one of the
44:37people you know that we've named and we
44:39named out of evidence as the murderers
44:42when our hearing started Peter K I give
44:44you a little description is about 6'4
44:46all muscle you know a really scary type
44:49of guy that if you saw you would run
44:51across the street he was arrested he was
44:54in River you know in jail out in suffi
44:58county and during the hearing Leonard
45:00lato and the DA's investigator Walter
45:04walkerthe went to interview him now what
45:07do you think this monster of a man did
45:09when they walked in he started crying he
45:12started crying why would he cry as a
45:14good investigator you say oh I got him
45:16he was crying because they he thought
45:18they were coming now to arrest him on on
45:20the tank Clift case what did they tell
45:23him and he testified to the I'm not
45:26making this up the district attorney and
45:29the detective told Peter Kent Peter
45:31don't worry about it we know you didn't
45:33do it they had him they had him that day
45:37that Marty tankleff might have been out
45:39of jail maybe five years earlier if they
45:41did the right thing wow so in ter I
45:45don't want to talk about the current
45:47civil case in terms of beyond what it is
45:50but just for the people listening
45:52there's a current case that was just
45:54recently filed it's a civil action what
45:57is it about and what does it allege and
45:59does it go beyond just Marty's case in
46:02general well the civil case was filed
46:05this week and basically what they want
46:07to know is why this happened why that's
46:12what it comes down to why suffk County
46:15knew uh many years before the tank Liff
46:19case that the detectives I mean the the
46:23New York State investigation commission
46:24found them to be Li
46:26the the suffk county the suffk County
46:28Bar Association requested that all uh
46:32you know uh interrogations be
46:35videotaped the appell at court 10 years
46:38from 78 to to like
46:4187 10 convictions were overturned from
46:43suffk County something was wrong in
46:47suffk why did they were on warning I
46:51mean they were told how come they didn't
46:53do anything and who became a victim
46:55Monty tankleff
46:57so the main focus of this is why we want
47:01to find out why nothing happened in
47:04suffk to to change their their systems
47:07with the police and the prosecution of
47:09these cases with the fa the case was
47:11filed where what court federal court or
47:14federal cour federal court uh Easter
47:16District sou County yes okay and do you
47:20know what the complaint asked for as far
47:22as damages or relief no I I honestly at
47:25this point don't know but you know it's
47:27been said how do you put a dollar amount
47:29on what Marty tankleff went through but
47:32at this point I don't know the dollar
47:33amount is he seeking the the wrongful
47:35incarceration period as as
47:38damages you know I yeah but I basically
47:42I would prefer of one of Mon's attorneys
47:44they came it was just curious because
47:45whatever you may I didn't really get a
47:47good sense of what I read in the
47:48newspapers what is it what it was
47:51exactly about the point of the the case
47:54the new case yeah the point of the civil
47:56case is that uh the the
47:59county uh is is negligent for allowing
48:03that that essentially this was a an
48:06injustice waiting to happen it's
48:08actually Barry shek's quote the other
48:10day when it was filed because you had
48:12you had
48:14mccre uh who had been known to to ped
48:17himself in a prior murder case who had a
48:20terrible
48:21reputation um you had the entire
48:23homicide Squad known to to have
48:27confessions that were suspect uh and and
48:30other procedures that they had that
48:32that's why there were so many cases
48:34being thrown out so that they were
48:36unnoticed they they they they knew that
48:38there were terrible things going on
48:42and this could have been avoided should
48:44have been avoided there's no way that
48:46that Marty should have been in this
48:48position on that day so I think the
48:50essence legally is that's that's where
48:52they're coming
48:54from because of the case have
48:57other people like Marty have they come
49:00forward asking to be given the
49:04same view or that's why we're getting
49:07those letters right and and I'll tell
49:09you many letters are coming from suffi
49:11County many inmates from suff County
49:13prisoners there there are three cases
49:16that we know of at least that um of uh
49:21murder convictions in suff County from
49:23the 1980s that uh
49:26are are there's good reason to believe
49:28these are innocent men are you working
49:30on any of those yes wow yes and two of
49:33them two of them we uh we talk about in
49:35the book cool that speaking of the book
49:39you kind of feel that after you put this
49:40book down that you really need to reach
49:42for a volume
49:43too it is there you know not putting any
49:46pressure and you're not under oath or
49:48anything like that but will there be
49:49sort of a followup in some form either
49:52in terms of an Audi book or you know an
49:55ebook book or something to talk about so
49:57like the where are they now kind of
49:59thing I don't think there'll be another
50:00book but when when it's usually book
50:02comes out in paperback a year after hard
50:05cover and so depending on what happens
50:08if there further developments you know
50:10we might add to the last chapter for
50:13that wow and then of course the
50:16movie since you brought are are do you
50:20hope to put this into uh I would love
50:22you know if it if it becomes a movie you
50:24know but that's you know beyond our
50:26control but we're waiting and I could
50:28see alpacino having your part just you
50:31know so so let's talk about you guys as
50:34individuals because it's amazing this we
50:36we've gone through 50 minutes of a
50:38second hour on on this topic and it's
50:41just it's just blazing what let's talk
50:43let's talk a little bit Rick about some
50:45of your writing what you've written and
50:47and and and what you're working on now
50:49as far as projects and things like that
50:51well I've written a number of books uh I
50:53write I write non-fiction books of all
50:56kinds and uh I like to tell stories so I
50:59WR you know sort of uh narrative
51:01journalism uh one book uh actually the
51:04first book that I did I collaborated
51:06with my wife Jamie Talon who's a science
51:08writer and it was a book about a woman
51:10in Upstate New York uh who uh smothered
51:13her five babies in succession over a
51:16six-year period and it was described to
51:19sudden infant death syndrome and a uh a
51:23researcher built the whole fraudulent
51:26theory of Sids based on this case and it
51:28was another sort of Cold Case situation
51:31where 20 years later a DA in this case
51:33the da was the good guy and went back
51:37and you know investigated it and brought
51:39her to Justice and also you know sort of
51:41exposed the fraud of that so that was uh
51:44prior to that I you know and I thought I
51:46would never have such a rich story as
51:49that and and until this it's uh that's
51:53why I don't do true crime books as a
51:55rule I mean I've only done I put that in
51:57quotes True Crime um this is only the
51:59second one over you know between 14
52:02years because uh I'm not interested in
52:05writing about the murder of the week
52:07just some you know uh some uh uh Garden
52:11variety story but the Marty story like
52:14the other uh the other book was really
52:16really different so that's what I do and
52:18I I always look for uh I just look for
52:21stories that have layers and are not you
52:24know that just have some amb it about
52:26them and um you know just sort
52:29of um pieces of it that could be fit
52:33together and make it a a story that
52:35people will won't put down can we take
52:37take a peek on what you're working on
52:39next um I can't say yet okay something
52:43in the works but we'll see but maybe
52:44we'll get you to talk about on the air
52:45in the future all right so Jay tell us
52:48about your firm well I have my own
52:50private practice which is J saline
52:52Associates private investigation and
52:54thank God you know uh I said I didn't
52:57get paid from the tank lift case but
53:00again you know the notoriety has been
53:01very good for for my uh career for my
53:04business thank God I I deal with a lot
53:06of high-profile attorneys and which I
53:08get some high-profile cases but I still
53:11love to do the innocent cases I was just
53:13retained to work on the west me uh the
53:16West Memphis 3 case yeah tell me about
53:18that well that was a horrible horrible
53:21crime in
53:221993 in uh West Memphis uh 10 Tennessee
53:26three young boys were found murdered and
53:29you know mutilated in the water and
53:32eventually three young men including my
53:34client Damen Eckles were arrested once
53:37again based on a false confession it's
53:40an amazing case uh it's almost a lot of
53:43similarities to tankleff where there's a
53:45struggle against the District Attorney's
53:47office and uh you know these fellas what
53:51I see so far the case was not properly
53:54investigated and I'm going to give it to
53:56them too I mean I'll be going down uh
53:58April 13th and I plan on spending a long
54:01period of time off and on down there
54:03until I can get these guys home and I'm
54:05confident I will right um there's great
54:08fruit in Memphis we did a show on that I
54:10was there last year and uh there's some
54:12great ribs and there's dry rub and wet
54:14rub we'll talk about that some other
54:16time we're off the air did you have a
54:17question yes just only because we are
54:20college environment I'd like to ask for
54:23on behalf of any writing students who
54:25are interested in doing the type of
54:27Journalism that you do what advice would
54:30you give them well you need to be a
54:32reporter I mean that's that's what I am
54:34at heart and I started out as a uh I
54:37worked at a smaller paper in New Jersey
54:39and then I worked at news day uh for 16
54:42years as a writer and editor um and I
54:46you know I think to to do books you have
54:47to sort of take it to another level of
54:49of Storytelling and it's got of you know
54:51you have to uh you have to do a lot lot
54:55of lot of deep reporting and you have to
54:58have the ability to to uh write it in a
55:01in a way that unfold the story um but
55:05but basically uh you know journalism is
55:07journalism and so anybody who wants to
55:09write should write and do it as much as
55:12possible just it's amazing how fast they
55:15say I wanted to ask Jay you were a
55:17detective for many years yes a New York
55:19police detective okay there's a great
55:21little story in the book i' loved you to
55:22share about some stolen items from
55:25canari Brooklyn well when I you know I'm
55:28a Jewish detective Jewish cop and I got
55:30to canari and and the first case that I
55:32that I got was a Torah that was actually
55:35stolen from Yeshiva Yeshiva atas in kosi
55:38and to make a long story short it's my
55:40first case I went out there I I I met
55:43the rabbi Rabbi young rice I spoke to
55:46him and once again a miracle I I figured
55:49let me go speak to the porter because
55:51there was no break here so I I called
55:54the porter up I told him I'm coming over
55:56to his house I want to talk to him I go
55:59I get there and I'm walking up the steps
56:01I knock on the door he's not there I
56:04said well I told him I'm coming you know
56:06so as I'm walking down the steps the
56:09Torah was in in the garbage can wow this
56:12is the first Torah in the history
56:13Believe It or Not of the world that was
56:16ever recovered and brought back to its
56:17proper owner because at that time you
56:20you couldn't Mark a Tor to for
56:22identification purposes so you know that
56:25you know I brought it back to its owner
56:27and Rabbi young rice was going to have a
56:29function you know for the Torah and
56:32there would be a you know a special
56:35guest of honor so maybe my ego or
56:37whatever I thought it was going to be me
56:40right and you know I got there and I'm
56:41having a couple of drinks before you
56:43know the the actual event there was a
56:45cocktail hour and I guess I might have
56:47had too many Cocktails so but at that
56:50point he tells me well the guest of
56:52honor is a Torah and we want you to
56:54carry it in and I'll tell you something
56:56those things that they I don't know
56:59especially when you've had a few [ __ ]
57:00right I don't know how I made it to how
57:02I made it to the stage but we both got
57:05there in one piece wow so as we're
57:07wrapping it up wow um give us the
57:10information and telephone numbers for
57:13Fortress in Fortress innocen group and J
57:15southp Associates private investigation
57:18could be we could be reached at 516 7591
57:221511 with regards to the Marty tank Liff
57:25case which is still going on now civil
57:27and you know we want to get the right
57:28people arrested here the tip line
57:3171857 4183 and all calls will be held
57:34strictly confidential okay and Rick um
57:37your website for for the book is a
57:40criminal injustice. okay and what's on
57:43the site I know there's a Blog and what
57:44else is there well we've got um articles
57:46that have been uh written about the book
57:48there's there links to uh some
57:51interviews including this one and um uh
57:55information on the case on us uh the
57:58blogs just said y well I can tell you is
58:01this if if if you're ever going to throw
58:03you those 60,000 words that um that did
58:06make the book I'll read them before they
58:07go to the
58:08garbage I mean the book is that
58:10compelling no thank you so so anyway as
58:12we wrap this up the book is called a
58:13criminal Injustice it's published by
58:16random house I'm sure you can get it on
58:17Amazon and Barnes & Noble and all those
58:19great plac everywhere bookes everywhere
58:22it'll probably come out in paperback in
58:23a year from now something like yeah all
58:25right uh this is a a very compelling
58:28story it is uh as a lawyer I could tell
58:31you that the book was both well- written
58:34intriguing uh the whole the whole
58:37criminal justice system was just uh
58:39fascinating to watch and to learn from
58:43uh you kind of as lawyers you know we
58:45tend to only see the same things over
58:47and over again and it's useful for us to
58:49see um other Traditions to to reflect
58:52back on what we need to know in our
58:54other cases I'm a civil lawyer and I do
58:55commercial cases so anyway uh J Sal
58:59Peter thank you for coming and Rick Rick
59:01fman not frisman got Sayo to Rick FR out
59:04there who's recovering from hip surgery
59:06uh we miss you Rick and Paul Solomon uh
59:08thanks a lot we appreciate it so again
59:10if you want to give us a call here at
59:12the station to talk about this you can
59:14call us at wcwp we are at tcbr
59:18radio.com on the internet tcbr
59:21r.y podcast.com for podcasting and you
59:25go to iTunes and put the word in TCB
59:27radio and you'll catch us there and uh
59:30if you want to send us an email uh
59:32that's TCB radio wcwp yahoo.com and
59:37again the phone number for jel Peter 516
59:407591 1511 all right and uh to check out
59:44the book go to a criminal
59:47injustice. and uh if I were you people
59:49I'd be running to Barnes & Noble right
59:51now and going getting a cup of coffee
59:53and getting that book and starting to
59:55read it thanks for listening we'll see
59:56you in a week appreciate you listening
59:58thanks so much bye

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