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A Conversation with Theranos Whistleblower Tyler Shultz | The Program for Leadership and Character — Transcript

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0:00So Tyler, um maybe just say your name
0:02and and who you are.
0:03>> Yeah, so my name is Tyler Schultz and
0:06I'm most well known for blowing the
0:07whistle at Theronos as my first job out
0:09of college, but after that I went on to
0:11start two diagnostics companies myself.
0:13I've become a husband and a father and
0:16now I actually speak full-time about my
0:19experience at Theronos and hope that we
0:20can bring some lessons to uh all kinds
0:22of stakeholders.
0:23>> Well, we're glad to have you speaking
0:24today to us. I first want to about you
0:26Tyler. When you were the whistleblower
0:27at Theronos, how did you become a
0:29Theronos whistleblower? [laughter]
0:32>> I guess the first step was working at
0:33Theronos.
0:35Um, in a nutshell, I joined the company
0:38very very excited. I thought that that
0:40was the type of company that I could
0:41work at for my entire career. I thought
0:43it was just the absolute perfect place.
0:45It was the Apple of Healthcare. But
0:47pretty much as soon as I joined, like
0:48we're talking about first day as a
0:50full-time employee, red flags started
0:52popping up and they just kept popping
0:54up. We were deceiving regulators. We
0:55were deceiving investors. We were
0:56deceiving the board. We were deceiving
0:58doctors and patients. And so I started
1:00raising these concerns. And so I first
1:02talked to my colleagues who also kind of
1:04became some of my friends at Theronos. I
1:06talked to my managers. And ultimately I
1:08talked to a vice president, the CEO, the
1:11COO and president, a board member, a
1:14regulator, and nothing ever happened
1:16when I went to all those channels. And
1:18so it wasn't until a Wall Street Journal
1:20reporter reached out to me digging into
1:22some questions about Theronos and I
1:23started talking to him that things
1:25really started happening and moving and
1:27that's when I really became a
1:29whistleblower. And the first time that I
1:30ever thought of myself as a
1:32whistleblower was reading it in the Wall
1:34Street Journal with the whistleblower
1:35word written right next to my name.
1:37>> Oh, interesting. So you mentioned the
1:39red flags that you saw. What were some
1:40of the red flags that you saw at
1:41Theronos?
1:42>> So I mean [laughter] how much time do we
1:45have?
1:46Um, probably the biggest red flag was
1:48that the technology that Elizabeth had
1:50been touting simply did not exist. This
1:53device that could test for hundreds of
1:55things from a single drop of blood
1:56without the infrastructure of a central
1:58laboratory did not exist. It was an
2:01eight channel pipet on a robotic arm.
2:04Um, there was no micrfluidics in it.
2:06There was no new signal transduction
2:07method. It could only test for one thing
2:09at a time. It wasn't even a standalone
2:11platform. And so really the technology
2:13not existing was the root of all the
2:15problems and then everything else kind
2:17of followed from that. You know the
2:19deceiving of the regulators, the hiding
2:21inaccurate results, um the lying to
2:24investors that all stemmed from the fact
2:26that the technology didn't exist
2:30>> and when did you know that there's
2:31something off about this technology?
2:32When did you figure out that this was
2:34not quite what it was claimed to be? So
2:37the big aha moment was really on my
2:39fourth day working there. Wow. And that
2:41is when I joined what was called the
2:44assay validation team where our jobs
2:46were to make sure that these tests
2:47worked before we tested real patients.
2:49And as part of our onboarding into that
2:51lab, we got to see what they called the
2:53quote unquote open reader. So it was the
2:55therronos device that did not have the
2:57plastic shell on it. So you could see
2:59exactly what was inside, exactly what it
3:00was doing. And the first time that I was
3:03seeing this was actually the first time
3:04that my manager was seeing this,
3:06>> which is kind of odd because my manager
3:08had been working there for a few years,
3:09but had never seen the product that she
3:11was working on. But we're watching this
3:13demonstration together, and I just
3:15remember my manager turning to the woman
3:16who was giving us the demo. And she just
3:18said, "Do you think this is cool?" And
3:22the woman just shrugged her shoulders
3:23and said, "I'll let you decide for
3:25yourself." And in that moment, I
3:27realized there was an open secret in the
3:29scientific community at Theronos that
3:32the technology just didn't exist.
3:34>> So that was the first real indication
3:36that something was wrong. Um, but
3:40actually maybe the first indication was
3:42even earlier than that. So I joined on
3:44the day that Theronos launched the
3:46product. But on my first day, I also
3:48learned that even though we had just
3:50launched the product, that we had no
3:51tests that were validated on the
3:52platform, which meant if a patient went
3:55into Walgreens, first of all, they would
3:57not get the finger prick that had been
3:58promised. They would have gotten a
3:59needle in the arm. And then on top of
4:01that, none of those tests were run on
4:03the Theronos equipment. We either
4:05diluted the blood and ran it on
4:07thirdparty equipment or we would just
4:08literally just send it out to other labs
4:10to do the testing. So even though we had
4:13launched the product, we really just
4:14launched the perception of a product. We
4:17launched like a business model more than
4:19launching a product.
4:21>> Wow. Interesting. Well, h what happened
4:23when you raised these questions? Um what
4:25happened after you told the CEO,
4:27Elizabeth Holmes, about this concern?
4:29>> Yeah, so Elizabeth was not very
4:32receptive to my concerns.
4:35Uh I first
4:37uh confronted her in her office with
4:39just a couple points and she kind of
4:41brushed me off and I followed up with a
4:43much longer email and in this email I
4:46pretty much wrote like this is an
4:47observation that I've made. This is data
4:49to support that observation and this is
4:52what I think we should do about it. And
4:54I ended that email by saying I apologize
4:56if this sounds attacking in any way. It
4:58is truly not meant to be. I'm dedicated
5:01to the long-term vision of this company,
5:02but I'm worried that some of our
5:04short-term practices will prevent us
5:06from reaching those long-term goals. And
5:09she did not respond to that email. She
5:11forwarded it to Sunonny Balwani for and
5:13for context, he was the president, COO,
5:16a board member, an investor, and also
5:18Elizabeth's boyfriend.
5:20>> Um, and so he responded to the email,
5:22and his email was literally an all red.
5:25A lot of it capitalized, a lot of it
5:27bolded. And he essentially said that I
5:29was arrogant, ignorant, patronizing,
5:30reckless. I had no understanding of
5:32basic math, science, or statistics. If I
5:35had any other last name, I would have
5:36already been held accountable in the
5:38strongest way. And the only conversation
5:40he wanted on this moving forward was an
5:42apology from me. And so, um,
5:46>> wow.
5:47>> Yes. They they did not take, uh, take my
5:50advice. [laughter]
5:52>> When he mentioned your last name, I know
5:54your grandfather, George Schwarz, was an
5:56investor at Therronos. How did that uh
5:58impact your decision and your role with
6:00the company?
6:01>> Yeah, so he joined as a board member. I
6:04don't know the exact timeline, but it
6:05was around the same time that I joined
6:08the company
6:09>> and it played a huge role in my decision
6:12to become a whistleblower and the way
6:14that I went about it. Um,
6:17and and
6:19the way that his influence impacted my
6:22decision changed a lot throughout this
6:24story. So when I first became a
6:25whistleblower, obviously a huge
6:27motivation of mine was that I knew
6:29patients were getting hurt, right? That
6:31was the main motivation. But on top of
6:33that, I really cared about my
6:35grandfather's reputation. And he had a
6:37really, really great reputation. In
6:40fact, the first time I ever spoke to the
6:41Wall Street Journal reporter, I told him
6:44on the phone that my grandfather was
6:46part of the Nixon administration during
6:48Watergate, he was the Secretary of
6:49Treasury.
6:50>> He was a secretary of state under Ronald
6:52Reagan during the Iran Contra scandal.
6:54And he made it out of both of those with
6:56his integrity completely intact.
6:58>> So I thought, you know, if he could if
7:00he can make it out of Watergate with his
7:02integrity intact, there was no doubt in
7:04my mind that if he was given the
7:06opportunity that he was going to make
7:08things right with the people that
7:09Elizabeth had hurt and he would make it
7:11out of this with his integrity intact.
7:13So I wanted to make sure he had that
7:15opportunity. And I think he was 95 or 96
7:19years old at the time. So I wanted to
7:22make sure that this story came out
7:24before he passed away so that he had
7:26that opportunity. So that was really
7:28part of my motivation for becoming a
7:31whistleblower. [clears throat]
7:33>> But he didn't seem to be as welcoming of
7:35that to you. Your book is really um I
7:37think really powerful and how you show
7:39uh repeated conversations with your
7:41grandfather about this work. How did
7:42that relationship unfold over time
7:44through this process?
7:48Yeah, unfortunately he pretty much
7:50disappointed me at every possible
7:52opportunity and our relationship just
7:55really degraded over time. He continued
7:57to take Elizabeth's side over mine. He
8:00continued to defend her over me. Even
8:02after the Wall Street Journal had come
8:04out with all of their reporting, even
8:06after there were investigations by the
8:08FDA and CMS,
8:11>> uh he just continued to support her. He
8:13was just under some sort of spell, it
8:15seemed like.
8:16>> And so eventually it got to the point
8:18where I felt like I have to stop making
8:20decisions with his best interest in
8:22mind. I have to do what's best for me.
8:24He was 96 years old and I was just
8:26starting my career. I was just starting
8:28my professional adult life and so I
8:30thought I need to, you know, look after
8:33myself here. Um,
8:36>> so at one point I just I I really just
8:38started focusing on myself and stopped
8:40caring what the consequences would be
8:42for him. And I thought if if he's sued
8:46and in some lawsuit and loses all of his
8:48money, if he somehow ends up in prison,
8:51if he's held liable for this, I have to
8:53be okay with that because I've done
8:55everything I can possibly do to help him
8:57and to get him out of this. But he would
8:59not take any of those opportunities.
9:02Well, in your book, you're really
9:03describing great detail about the
9:04conversations back and forth around this
9:06and the real disappointment. Um, did you
9:09ever reconcile with your grandfather?
9:11>> To some extent, you know, he never
9:14apologized to me for for his role in
9:17this. He never really even acknowledged
9:19the role that he had in enabling
9:20Elizabeth to do what she did. But he did
9:23admit that I was right.
9:25>> But he did so
9:28>> long after it was really useful. You
9:30know, these are
9:31>> after the SEC had found that there were
9:35instances where Elizabeth told
9:36prospective investors that their revenue
9:39the previous year was $108 million when
9:42in reality it was only $100,000.
9:45>> Wow.
9:45>> And so when it's that black and white
9:47coming from an investigation by the SEC,
9:50that's when he felt like, hm,
9:53>> Elizabeth might be lying to me here. U
9:56so it really it took until that point
9:58for him to come around. But the last
10:00conversation that I had with him in
10:02person before the co lockdowns, uh he
10:05invited me over to his house and he
10:07actually told me about a time that he
10:09saw Elizabeth lie where I didn't have to
10:12force him to see this.
10:14>> And so I think that was kind of his way
10:15of
10:17>> of really letting me know that he he saw
10:19that she was lying and that I was right.
10:21And what he told me was that during
10:23fleet week in San Francisco when they
10:25bring the battleships into the bay and
10:28they have the Blue Angels fly over the
10:30city, he got Elizabeth an invite to
10:32speak on a battleship to a group of Navy
10:34sailors. And he said with tears in her
10:37eyes, she got up there and told these
10:40young men and women who were potentially
10:42sacrificing their lives for the United
10:45States that she was just so honored and
10:47humbled that her life's work was saving
10:50the lives of United States service men
10:52and women. And he just said, "I could
10:54not believe that any human being was
10:57capable of lying to those people as
11:00confidently and as convincingly as she
11:03lied." And so it meant a great deal to
11:06me for him to to say that. But at the
11:10same time, he he did fall a bit short in
11:12as far as making things right
11:15>> and taking accountability for his
11:17involvement.
11:18>> You know, you spent years, Tyler, and
11:20lots of money, almost $500,000, you
11:22said, um, to defend yourself in the
11:25midst of this really intense,
11:26high-profile case.
11:28>> Um, what was the scariest part of being
11:31a whistleblower?
11:32So, the scariest part to me was that I
11:36knew with 100% certainty that I was
11:40right.
11:41>> There was no doubt in my mind.
11:44>> And I thought if I'm ever, you know, if
11:46this if I ever actually go to court
11:48against Elizabeth, I'm just going to say
11:51if this thing works in a medevac
11:53helicopter, it should work in a
11:55courtroom. Go prick [laughter] the
11:56judge's finger and if you can get 300
11:59results from a single drop of blood, I
12:01will lie down. I will say I was wrong. I
12:03will say anything you want me to say. I
12:05will give up. But I just knew that
12:06there's no chance that they would be
12:08able to do that. There's no way they
12:09would be able to actually prove me
12:11wrong.
12:11>> The scary part was that I didn't think
12:14that that mattered.
12:16>> It really seemed like the only thing
12:18that mattered in our legal system was
12:20how much money you could spend. The
12:22truth counted for nothing. The only
12:24thing that mattered was that you could
12:25buy the truth. And they had tremendous
12:29amounts of resources, way more than what
12:32I had. And it became clear that part of
12:34their strategy was just to get me and my
12:36family to spend all the money we had
12:39>> and then take us down. And and I gave
12:43this analogy in my audio book, but it
12:45felt like we settle these legal disputes
12:47over games of one-on-one basketball, but
12:49you get to choose who goes and plays for
12:52you. And if you're Theronos, you can go
12:53hire LeBron James to go play for
12:55[clears throat] you. and you just anyone
12:56else just does not stand a chance.
12:58>> And that's how it felt for a very very
13:00long time.
13:01>> But luckily what I learned is that the
13:03truth does count for a lot.
13:06>> It just takes a painfully painfully long
13:10time.
13:11>> It it does. Yeah. and and and a time
13:13when you were also followed by private
13:15investigators when you were threatened
13:17with lawsuits, when you're getting
13:19pressure from your grandfather and
13:20others to to do this. Um, how'd you find
13:23the courage to do the right thing in the
13:24face of all this pressure in the in this
13:26very high stakes case? I I really felt
13:30like it could be the most important
13:33thing that I do in my life. I felt like
13:35it was hugely important for me to see
13:37this through. One thing that I think
13:39people don't understand about being a
13:41whistleblower is not it's just not a
13:43decision you make one time and then you
13:45live with it. You have to remake that
13:47decision every single day because there
13:49are [clears throat] constantly
13:50opportunities to say you were wrong, to
13:52give up, to take an out.
13:54>> Um, and I just felt like that I couldn't
13:56do that. I couldn't give up. I had to
13:58see this through.
13:59>> And I look back on some of the things
14:02that Sunny accused me of on my last day,
14:04you know, arrogant, ignorant,
14:05patronizing, reckless. And in a lot of
14:08ways, I recognize now that he wasn't
14:10really wrong. You know, I went might
14:13phrase it differently. I would say I was
14:14extremely confident. I had an extremely
14:16high risk tolerance and I was totally
14:18naive of what the personal consequences
14:21would be to me. And in a way, that was a
14:24really interesting combination of
14:26factors. It's a really unique type of
14:27courage that comes with being young. And
14:31I'd like to think that today, you know,
14:33now I'm 34 years old, that I would still
14:35do this the same things that I did when
14:37I was 22, 23, 24.
14:42But on at the same time, it was much
14:44easier for me to do when I was that age
14:46because I didn't have a wife. I didn't
14:48have kids. I didn't have a mortgage. In
14:51a lot of ways, I had a lot less to lose
14:53than I do now. Um, and so that in a way
14:56may have helped me garner that courage.
14:59And then on top of all of that, I I
15:01really think that my my parents honestly
15:04just did a really really good job
15:06raising me and raising me with values.
15:08>> So much so that I was um you know,
15:11absolutely unrelenting. I would not
15:13allow my own personal values to be
15:16compromised no matter what. I think
15:18maybe my parents
15:19>> uh were disappointed in that a little
15:21bit. You know, they would have preferred
15:22that I just give up and move on with my
15:24life. But I would not I absolutely would
15:26not compromise on my values. I wouldn't
15:29sign affidavit under penalty or perjury
15:31that Theronos was trying to get me to
15:33sign because I knew they weren't true
15:35>> and I was not willing to say that I was
15:38wrong when I knew that I was right.
15:41>> Um,
15:42>> and so I don't know exactly to be
15:44honest, but it was a combination of of
15:46just all of those things. So Tyler, I
15:48spent a lot of time thinking about,
15:50reading about, writing about the virtue
15:51of hope and um and it's a hard virtue
15:55because we have to avoid kind of
15:57optimism that is so blind to reality,
15:59but also despair that can be very
16:01tempting to us. Um what was it like when
16:03you were in the midst of all the hardest
16:05things when despair might have been a
16:06real temptation for you? Um how did you
16:09maintain your hope?
16:13>> So in a lot of ways I didn't. I think in
16:16some ways I resigned myself to the fact
16:18that I was going to lose, but I was
16:20going to fight to the end anyway. And
16:24I was so young and I recognized that I
16:26was so young that I felt like it it
16:28almost didn't matter. And that what
16:30helped me come to that realization was
16:32actually my mom. She we she had a
16:34conversation with me and she said um you
16:37know they're trying to take all of your
16:40money. They're trying to bankrupt you.
16:41They're trying to bankrupt us. Um, but
16:44that doesn't matter because the most
16:45important things in your life, they
16:47cannot take away. They can't take away
16:48your family. They can't take away your
16:51education. They can't take away your
16:53friends. They can't take away the
16:54passion that you have for life. No
16:56matter how this ends, you are going to
16:58be okay. The most important things in
17:00your life, they cannot touch. And that
17:03was really empowering to me because I
17:05felt like, yeah, I can completely lose
17:08>> and that will be okay.
17:09>> I can again, I can change fields. I
17:13could move to a new country. Before I
17:15joined Theronos, I spent a couple months
17:18playing guitar on the streets of
17:19Ireland. And I was so happy doing that.
17:22I thought I can move to Ireland and be a
17:25perfectly happy vagabond for the rest of
17:27my life if that's how this story ends.
17:31>> And and so in a lot of ways, that was
17:32very freeing to honestly not even have
17:34the hope.
17:35>> Just know that the fight was worth it.
17:37>> Yeah. And I love that it wasn't hope for
17:39an outcome, but hope for a way of being
17:41that you want to maintain. You know,
17:42this person of real passion, of
17:44integrity,
17:45>> with friends and family. Um, you
17:46actually need to hope for that.
17:48>> You can hope for that and you can also
17:49control that,
17:50>> right? Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. A lot of
17:52agency involved in that sort of kind of
17:54hope. Yeah.
17:54>> You mentioned your parents and so say
17:56what about your own childhood and how um
17:59growing up shaped your character. Were
18:00there moments or people that really
18:02formed this sense of integrity and
18:05courage in the midst of difficulty?
18:07>> Yeah. Yeah. So, going back to my
18:08parents, I I I mean, as an adult, I look
18:10back and I don't think I recognized it
18:12when I was a kid. I mean, how could you?
18:13But I really just I did have amazing
18:16parents.
18:16>> And what I realized what they did was
18:18they
18:19>> um created their life basically to
18:24>> dedicate themselves to raising their
18:25children, me and my two siblings.
18:27>> Um everything in their life was around
18:29what was best for us, the jobs that they
18:32chose. Um, like my dad was a high school
18:35biology teacher, which meant he had
18:36summers off. He got out of school around
18:39the same time that we did. So, he was
18:40coaching our soccer teams and basketball
18:42teams. My mom was a nurse and then
18:45became a full-time stay-home mom um, you
18:48know, once my brother was born. And, and
18:51I really just feel like we had so much
18:53attention from them. And they were very
18:56intentional about making sure that we
18:58had good values as we grew up. And
19:02at the time it was could be like
19:04nauseating at times, but my my dad would
19:06constantly tell us things like, you
19:08know, you're the only person who has to
19:10live with you for the rest of your life.
19:13>> So, you have to make sure you can live
19:15with yourself. You have to be able to
19:16sleep at night. You have to be able to
19:17look yourself in the mirror and be proud
19:19of the person that you are. And that
19:21message was just reiterated over and
19:24over and over. And then we even saw that
19:26reflected in the way that my parents
19:28behaved as well. One great example is
19:31that we used to go to church every
19:33Sunday. Um, and then there was some
19:35incidents with pedophilia and
19:39they that the church had an extra
19:41collection at the end of one of their
19:43services to pay for the legal fees of a
19:46priest who had been accused of
19:48pedophilia.
19:49>> And my parents just could not believe
19:51that the church was collecting money to
19:53defend this person. And so they
19:54literally stood up and walked out. And I
19:58was probably 10 years old at the time,
19:59you know. So to me, I I didn't fully
20:02grasp the situation. I just thought,
20:04"Yes, I don't have to go to church
20:05anymore, you know." But really, it
20:07really it was a great example for their
20:10children because they they were saying,
20:11"There's ways to instill values in our
20:14family that don't require the
20:16institution of a church." And I think
20:20that was a powerful message to to to
20:23bring to their kids.
20:25You are now a dad. You have two
20:28[clears throat] kids, uh, two and and
20:29three months old. Yeah.
20:30>> So, how has your parents example shaped
20:33your own sort of role as a father?
20:37>> Yeah. I mean, it's it's funny. You don't
20:39know what parenthood is going to do to
20:41you until you become a parent.
20:42>> And what I very very quickly realized is
20:45that
20:47>> a lot of my life up to that point had
20:49been I would create a life that
20:52supported the job that I wanted to have.
20:53like I really I was dedicated to my
20:55startups. I was a founder. And then that
20:58changed on a dime. Literally overnight.
21:00It became I had this realization that I
21:03need to create a life um I need to
21:05create a a work life that supports my
21:08home life, not the other way around.
21:10>> Um and it it really made me think about
21:14what my own values are. And the one the
21:17thing that I value most in my life is my
21:18family. And I realized when my son was
21:21born that I could not be the founder
21:23that I wanted to be and the father that
21:25I wanted to be at the same time. At
21:27least not at at this moment in time.
21:29People do it. Um but at this moment in
21:32time that was not possible. So I made
21:34the decision to step away from the
21:36startup that I was working on and just
21:38be a dad full-time.
21:40>> Yeah.
21:40>> Um it kind of coincided with the time
21:43that Elizabeth and Sunny finally went to
21:45prison. And it also coincided with the
21:48time that my wife got her first job
21:50after being in dental school and
21:52residency for and you know until she was
21:5531 years old or whatever.
21:57>> So it was just a great period of time to
21:59um allow my you know so my wife could go
22:02pursue her career. I took a step back
22:03from the crazy startup world and I just
22:06started dedicating myself to being the
22:08best dad that I could be and I' I've
22:10absolutely loved it. And the initial
22:14plan was to probably take three months
22:16and then try to go start another
22:18startup, join a venture fund, maybe
22:20start a fund. And here we are two plus
22:22years later. And [laughter] I I I
22:25haven't done those things. Um but what I
22:28have done is I've I've created um you
22:31know a business for myself where I go
22:33and speak and it's been an amazing job
22:36for me because I'm able to come to
22:37places here like Wake Forest and I feel
22:39like I can make an incredible impact on
22:41your students and on your community
22:44>> but then I get to fly home and then when
22:45I'm home I'm dad 100%.
22:48>> And right now it has just created the
22:50best work life balance that I could
22:53possibly imagine.
22:54>> Yeah. And I think in a lot of ways I get
22:57that from my parents. I think my parents
22:59did that in a very different way but
23:01kind of had that same idea.
23:03>> Excellent. Well, you were amazing in our
23:04talk here at Wake Forest. I think you
23:06really sort of inspired students,
23:07faculty and staff here about the
23:08importance of courage, commitment in the
23:10face of intense pressure. And I want to
23:12ask about your your past in a different
23:14way. So to choose to blow the whistle at
23:17Theronos is a really big decision in a
23:19very high stakes, very public setting.
23:22Were there smaller decisions in your
23:25past where you you really were tested in
23:27your character and how did those shape
23:28your ability to do this now in this very
23:30high-profile moment?
23:32>> Yeah, I mean it's a really great point.
23:34I think um a great message that I try to
23:37give to students is that you can't just
23:39walk into Theronos right after
23:40graduating college and really expect to
23:44be able to [laughter]
23:45to confront something like that without
23:47any practice. And there are all kinds of
23:49moments in our lives where there are
23:51challenges to our values. And the first
23:54step is to recognize when those values
23:56are being challenged. The next step is
23:58to act on it. And I I like to say that
24:01it's like flexing a muscle. Like it your
24:03your ethical impulses are like muscles
24:06that you need to work out. You need to
24:07identify these situations. You need to
24:09flex those muscles. And that's how you
24:11grow as a person. And how you grow that
24:13muscle. Then when the big one comes,
24:15when the Theronos event type comes, I
24:17think you're much more prepared. You
24:19understand yourself and and what you're
24:21capable of. You have trust and
24:23confidence in yourself. You know who
24:24your support network is.
24:26>> And um you know how to relieve stress in
24:28your own life. And you need the practice
24:32in order to figure out what those things
24:33are. And there are a few moments in my
24:36in my past that helped me kind of flex
24:38that muscle. Um I don't necessarily
24:41speak about them all publicly. Maybe
24:42someday I will, but know that they they
24:45do exist. And a lot of that again comes
24:48from I think starting with my parents.
24:49Like when I was a kid, my my parents
24:51would be able to identify those types of
24:53situations and talk about them with
24:55their children. And so that's something
24:57that I will hope to do as a parent even
24:59though it's can be very hard to do.
25:02>> Well, it's easy especially in uh the
25:05academy to focus on these big ethical
25:06moments, these big decisions and reduce
25:08ethics to those really extraordinary
25:10cases. But I think what what you're
25:12saying now is that these moments also
25:13happen in much more mundane ways,
25:15perhaps even daily in certain ways. So
25:18in your experience as a leader at
25:19Theronos or um in your own companies,
25:22how have you seen ethical dilemmas arise
25:25daily and how do you respond to those in
25:26your own role?
25:27>> So I would say especially as a founder
25:29of a startup, you are faced with ethical
25:31dilemmas daily. There is always pressure
25:35to exaggerate, to cut corners. Um, and
25:39it can be really hard to resist that
25:42pressure. Sometimes it feels like
25:43everybody else is doing it. It's it's
25:46the only way. It's it's the formula for
25:50success. And one manifestation of this
25:53would be this this idea of faking it
25:54till you make it in startups.
25:57>> And I think that that concept has gotten
26:00really out of hand. And this is a bit
26:03maybe a bit of a longer answer than you
26:05intended for, but that phrase fake it
26:07till you make it really became popular
26:10when Dropbox launched this very
26:12convincing demonstration of what Dropbox
26:15would be on YouTube.
26:17>> And they got tens of thousands of people
26:19to sign up for their weight list who
26:21thought, "Oh, this product looks
26:22amazing. I would love to buy it." And
26:24Dropbox took that weight list and they
26:26went to venture capital firms and said,
26:27"Look at all the people who want to buy
26:29our product. All we need is money to
26:31build it. They got the VC investment.
26:33They built the product. They sold it to
26:35everybody on the wait list. The rest is
26:38history. I see what they did as really
26:40good market diligence. They really found
26:44made sure that they had a product market
26:46fit before they raised money, before
26:47they built the product.
26:49>> Um because they were a startup with
26:50constrained resources.
26:52>> But what they didn't do was they didn't
26:53sell a product that didn't work. They
26:55didn't pre pretend it worked when it
26:57didn't. They didn't take anybody's money
26:59under false pretenses. And that concept
27:02I think has been completely manipulated
27:05into pretend it works when it doesn't,
27:07which is exactly what Theronos did. They
27:09pretended it worked when it did not.
27:11Another great example would be Nicola,
27:13which had they were developing
27:15hydrogen-powered cars and they had this
27:17very convincing video that looked like
27:19the car was driving under its own power,
27:21but in reality it was rolling downhill
27:23and then they just tilted the frame so
27:25that it looked like it was driving. And
27:27they they raised billions of dollars in
27:30in a spack um in part due to marketing
27:34PS like this video. And really the
27:36technology just didn't work. Mhm.
27:38>> And to me that is not the same type of
27:40fake it till you make it that Dropbox
27:43deployed. But those those are the types
27:45of
27:47situations that founders feel like
27:49they're always faced with. Another I
27:51think a an example that every founder is
27:54faced with is just creating your revenue
27:56projection slide. And everyone
27:58[clears throat] feels like they need to
27:59exaggerate these revenue projections.
28:01And you'll get a lot of bad advice from
28:04um adviserss who will say you need to
28:06show $500 million of revenue in less
28:08than five years. And it just becomes
28:11this I think a a terrible way to start a
28:15relationship between a founder and a
28:16venture capital firm where everybody
28:18knows that this slide is made up
28:21>> and the the VC firms will even tell
28:24founders like you know we're going to
28:25half or more than half this number in
28:27our mind so you need to double it or
28:30more than double it. your job as a CEO
28:32is to be optimistic. And I would always
28:34push back on that type of of rhetoric
28:37and that type of advice and say my job
28:38as a CEO is not to be optimistic.
28:41Anybody can be optimistic. My job is to
28:43see around corners, predict problems,
28:45and try to solve those problems before
28:48they become, you know, potential issues
28:50that could destroy my company. That's
28:51what a good CEO should be doing. Um, but
28:54unfortunately I I think you know you
28:57start with founders who start
28:58exaggerating about revenue projections
29:01and then they're not clear where that
29:02line is and then they take it too far.
29:05>> Well, Elizabeth Holmes took it too far
29:07and she faked it and made it for a while
29:09but then ultimately didn't make it. So
29:11she's now serving 11 years in prison for
29:13the fraud that she was convicted of. And
29:15so tell us more about Elizabeth. How did
29:17you come to meet Elizabeth? And what was
29:18your first impression of her? So I met
29:21Elizabeth in my grandfather's living
29:23room. So I was a junior at Stanford at
29:25the time and my grandfather was part of
29:27of a think tank that was on campus. So
29:30he lived and worked on campus when I was
29:32there. And one day I got a phone call
29:34from him and he just said, "I'm having
29:36this brilliant woman come over come over
29:38to my house. I think you would learn a
29:39lot if you came over and listened in on
29:41the discussion." So, I biked over to his
29:44house and that's where I met Elizabeth
29:47and she was wearing her all black
29:48outfit, the black turtleneck, very
29:51intentionally modeled after Steve Jobs.
29:53I heard her very deep, monotone,
29:56hypnotic voice, saw the unblinking,
29:58piercing blue eyes, and that's where I
30:01heard her lay out her vision for
30:03Theronos for the first time. Um,
30:07a little interesting detail is that
30:09Diane Feinstein was also there, senator
30:11from California. And what's interesting
30:14about that is after this meeting,
30:16obviously my grandfather and I were very
30:18captured by this vision and by
30:20Elizabeth's story. As far as I know,
30:22Diane Feinstein had nothing to do with
30:24her ever again. So, [laughter] I would
30:26love to know what did Diane Feinstein
30:29see in that first meeting that my
30:30grandfather and I did not.
30:32>> What made her so convincing? I mean, she
30:34was able to convince secretaries of
30:35state, um, military leaders, famous
30:38business leaders to join and invest in
30:40Theronos. How did she do it?
30:43>> It's really hard to describe now just
30:47how charismatic she was, just how good
30:49she was at doing this. She just had so
30:52much credibility. Her words carried so
30:54much weight. When she walked into a room
30:56and started speaking, everyone would
30:58stop talking to listen to what Elizabeth
31:00had to say. Employees just wanted to
31:03please her. They wanted to be near her.
31:04She had this
31:05>> People talk about how Steve Jobs had
31:07this reality distortion field. Elizabeth
31:09absolutely had that. She was just so
31:12good at being able to tell you exactly
31:15what you needed to hear for you to do
31:18what Elizabeth wanted you to do. Um,
31:21and
31:25there's just it's impossible to describe
31:27just how good she was. Like I I say that
31:29founders need to be really good at
31:31telling stories.
31:33But Elizabeth took it a step further.
31:35She didn't just tell the stories, she
31:37wrote the stories. She would recreate
31:40her own life to support her narrative.
31:43The black turtlenecks, you know, is the
31:45the the
31:46>> the most glaring example,
31:49>> but there are others like when Elizabeth
31:52first launched the product, they had
31:53this reporter come do a big story on
31:56Elizabeth and Theronos and they
31:58interviewed her parents and her brother.
32:00And as part of this, they Elizabeth
32:02showed the reporter her apartment in
32:06PaloAlto. And what she showed the
32:07reporter was like a twobedroom apartment
32:10with just a mattress and Evian water
32:12bottles in the fridge and a closet full
32:15of black turtlenecks. And the reporter
32:18wrote this story about how she lived an
32:19incredibly austere life. She had this
32:21monklike devotion to Theronos.
32:25And that apartment was completely
32:27staged. In reality, she was living in a
32:30mansion in Athetherton with her
32:32boyfriend who was also the investor and
32:35COO of the company, right? So, she would
32:38create these worlds that people just
32:40wanted to be true. People, she knew the
32:43story that people wanted to believe and
32:46she just served it up on a platter for
32:48us to consume.
32:49>> Wow.
32:50>> And she was a master at it.
32:52>> And she's doing it again with her whole
32:54rebrand. She's not Elizabeth anymore.
32:56She's Liz with her two kids and she
32:58poses with those kids in magazine and
33:01newspaper shoots and she's on the cover
33:04of People magazine even from prison
33:05somehow. Um she's trying to relaunch
33:10Theronos 2.0 basically called Hanthus
33:12through her husband and
33:16unfortunately I think she's so good at
33:18this that she probably will have a
33:20second act
33:21>> and she probably will do it somewhat
33:23successfully.
33:25What motivates her?
33:28>> I believe that at least when she started
33:31Theronos, she was not motivated by a
33:33true desire to help patients. I think
33:35she's obviously proven that that she
33:36didn't care about patients health. But I
33:38also don't think that she started
33:40Theronos wanting to commit a, you know,
33:43billion-dollar fraud. I think that she
33:46just really really wanted to be famous.
33:48>> She wanted to be the youngest self-made
33:50female billionaire. She wanted to be the
33:52female Steve Jobs. She wanted to fly on
33:55private jets with Mark Zuckerberg. She
33:57wanted to be part of the president's
33:58advisory council. She wanted to be on
34:00the cover of Forbes and Fortune and Inc.
34:03magazines. And she achieved all those
34:05things and then just didn't necessarily
34:09have an exit strategy. But I think that
34:12her primary driver was to be famous. And
34:16one really frustrating thing about that
34:18is again even from prison she was on the
34:21cover of People magazine just a few
34:23months ago and so even from prison we're
34:26continuing to give her exactly what she
34:29wants.
34:30>> Interesting.
34:32>> What about our culture now makes fame so
34:36seductive? U I mean we have we see
34:38people trying to be influencers and
34:40getting as many followers as possible to
34:41build their brands. Um, how should we
34:44think about fame in our current culture?
34:48>> Yeah, I think it can be a really
34:50dangerous thing because I think there's
34:52a maybe not a lot of people exactly like
34:54Elizabeth, but a lot of people who have
34:55that drive to be famous, not necessarily
34:59to create something positive in the
35:02world. They just want attention. And the
35:05really unfortunate thing is that the
35:06easiest way to get attention is by just
35:09saying really divisive things on social
35:11media. And so I think people are able to
35:13get a lot of followers and fame just by
35:17being these loud voices on the internet.
35:20And I I think it's a terrible terrible
35:23thing for for our society honestly.
35:26>> Yeah.
35:27>> Well, we think a lot about leadership on
35:29this podcast. And so I want to ask you
35:31about leadership and character. I know
35:33you learned a lot about leadership in
35:35these last few years from your
35:36experiences, from your own experience as
35:37a leader about what to do and also what
35:39not to do. Mhm.
35:40>> And so what are some lessons that you've
35:42taken away from your experiences?
35:44>> So I think a big one is just around
35:46culture building in your organizations
35:48and I think in a odd way Elizabeth and
35:52Sunny did an amazing job of building a
35:55culture at Therronos albeit a very
35:58misguided one. But they knew the type of
36:01culture they wanted to build and they
36:02were incredibly intentional about
36:04building that culture for a very long
36:06time. They wanted people to be afraid of
36:09them. They wanted no one to be willing
36:10to stand up for to them. And so over a
36:13period of 10 years, they took every
36:15single opportunity to reinforce that
36:17culture. We had overbearing NDAs. We
36:21were not allowed to say that we even
36:23worked at the company on LinkedIn. We
36:26were told not to talk to colleagues
36:28about work. There were barricades. There
36:30were locked doors. Um,
36:33and whenever anyone spoke up, they would
36:36be fired. And then after they were
36:38fired, sometimes they would be sued. And
36:40when they sued employees, they would
36:42even send out companywide emails about
36:43it where if you read between the lines,
36:45what they're saying is, "We will sue you
36:47too if you get in our way. We will
36:49destroy your life."
36:51>> And so people would stop speaking up,
36:53who's going to speak up? Nothing good
36:55comes. They see the feedback loops. They
36:57see it's not good for the person who
36:58speaks up. It doesn't benefit their
37:00colleagues. It doesn't benefit the
37:02patients. It's not good for anybody. So
37:04no one speaks up. And instead the people
37:06who would want to speak up instead just
37:08quietly leave. And some people were even
37:11afraid to leave. I
37:12>> had a close colleague who was afraid to
37:15give notice. So he bought a house in a
37:17different state, came in on a Friday,
37:20did a full day's work, left his badge on
37:22his desk, walked out the door, and by
37:24Monday morning he was in another state,
37:26living in his new house, didn't give a
37:28single day's notice. He was just gone.
37:30>> Wow. Um, and so when people do that, the
37:33type of people who are left are the
37:35people who will just go along with
37:36whatever they're asked to do. And there
37:39are all kinds of justifications. And I I
37:41genuinely don't think I've worked with
37:42bad people. I think my colleagues at
37:44Theronos were, you know, they were
37:46funny. They were kind. They were ethical
37:49people. There were people I I would
37:51consider my friends, but every day they
37:53were just put in situations where they
37:55had to compromise their values. And they
37:57got in the habit of doing that. And in a
38:00lot of ways, it felt like the Mgrim
38:02experiment. And I even gave that exact
38:04analogy to my grandfather once and said,
38:06"It feels like I'm part of the Mgrim
38:07experiment. I'm pushing this button and
38:09I hear somebody scream and there's an
38:12authority figure that's just telling me
38:13to keep pushing the button and I can't
38:15do it anymore."
38:16>> And when you look at that experiment, I
38:18don't think you would say that people
38:19who were pushing that button were
38:20actually bad, immoral people, right?
38:23They were just put in a bad situation
38:24and maybe they didn't know better. But
38:26to break out of that Mgrim type of
38:28experiment is actually very very hard to
38:31do. Um and that's the culture that
38:33Elizabeth and Sunny built very
38:35intentionally over a very long period of
38:37time.
38:38>> So what I hope companies and leaders do
38:40is to be thoughtful about the types of
38:42cultures they want to build and be very
38:46intentional about that culture and know
38:47that it will take a long time and a lot
38:49of reinforcement just like it is with a
38:52parent and a child. [laughter]
38:55Well, you you've parented both children
38:56and companies and so how have you done
38:58that in your own your own work? How have
39:00you built a positive culture?
39:01>> Yeah, I think the the best way I mean it
39:04really comes down to it. Transparency
39:06and humility I think are two big big big
39:09ones. Transparency to me means people
39:13within your organization understand why
39:14you're making the decisions that you're
39:16that you're making and and that helps
39:19keep everybody aligned. Um, I also
39:23always wanted anyone to be able to feel
39:25like they could disagree with me. That
39:27is what I really think of as
39:29transparency is people feel free to
39:31actually speak their mind. And it's
39:33really hard to build a culture to do
39:34that. And of course, it's easy to say
39:36like, yes, of course, we want a culture
39:38where people can have passionate debates
39:40and and all of that, but it's actually
39:42really hard to build that culture. And
39:44it's important to create positive
39:46feedback loops around that. And one
39:48thing that I found to be very useful is
39:50even when you're having an argument and
39:52especially in the scientific field like
39:54passionate scientists will argue all the
39:57time and it's a very healthy thing to do
40:00and at the end of those arguments you
40:01have to be able to take a step back and
40:03say we're on the same team.
40:06>> I really like you as a person. You know
40:08it we're arguing and we're fighting
40:10maybe and so maybe it doesn't feel good
40:12in this moment but we're still friends.
40:14We're still colleagues. we're on the
40:15same team and it's actually a really
40:16healthy thing that we're debating this
40:18and we can actually come up with a
40:20solution. Luckily, where in the field
40:22I've been working in, you can usually
40:23design an experiment and figure out
40:25whether A is happening or B is happening
40:27and turns out most of the time you'll
40:29both be wrong and everyone will learn
40:30something new and then you can continue
40:32to move forward. So being able to to
40:36build that type of transparency I think
40:37is just so crucial and it's in the way
40:41it's easier to do at a small startup
40:43because as a founder you have an outside
40:47a hugely outsized influence over that
40:50culture.
40:51>> But as the company scales
40:53>> and honestly I don't have a lot of
40:54experience doing this myself but as a
40:56company scales it becomes much harder
40:58when it's no longer necessarily just the
41:00founder setting the culture. It's all
41:02the people that they they've hired and
41:04all the people that they manage. But I
41:06still think as long as possible, you
41:08should have a culture where any employee
41:10at the company should feel confident or
41:13comfortable walking into the office of
41:15the CEO and saying, "I have something
41:18you really need to hear." Of course, you
41:20need like chain of command and all that.
41:22You can't have every single employee
41:23walking to your office every single day.
41:25But in those specific moments, if
41:28there's an employee who thinks the CEO
41:30needs to know this, they should feel
41:32like they should be able to walk into
41:33that person's office and tell them.
41:35>> Yeah. In your book, you talk about a
41:37great moment where happened to you where
41:38a student you're working with looked at
41:40one of your ideas, said I don't think
41:42that'll work actually. And so I love
41:44that you were kind of modeling that even
41:45in your own book.
41:46>> Oh yeah. I I'm and that kind of comes
41:49down to the humility part is you always
41:51need to be willing to admit that you're
41:53wrong about something which I think is
41:54very hard for a lot of leaders to do
41:57>> and you actually see this over and over
41:58again in the Theronos story where either
42:01Theronos or like Walgreens for instance
42:04hired a laboratory expert to go do
42:06diligence on Theronos. The expert was
42:09not shown anything that they needed to
42:10see. So they went back to Walgreens and
42:12said you should definitely not do a deal
42:14with this company. And they ignored that
42:16person.
42:17They didn't have the humility to say,
42:19>> "Well, we've gone through a hiring
42:22process and we've hired this consultant
42:24to go do diligence. Now, we should
42:26listen to that person." Instead, they
42:28thought, you know, we're a multi-billion
42:29dollar company. We know better than this
42:32guy. We know what's better for our
42:33business than some laboratory
42:35consultant, right?
42:36>> Wow.
42:37>> And I really think that again just comes
42:39down to humility. You have to be able to
42:40recognize that you're not the expert in
42:42everything. And the best you can do is
42:45to hire the experts that you need and
42:47then listen to them and admit that
42:48you're wrong and be willing to change
42:49your mind.
42:51>> You mentioned hiring. So when you think
42:52about hiring people for your companies,
42:54what do you look for? Are there certain
42:56skills or virtues or traits that you
42:58want to find in new employees?
43:01>> Yeah. So the thing that I really like to
43:05look for is um in a way someone who
43:09reflects a lot of the values that I have
43:11and it's good to find someone with
43:12complimentary skill sets but with um
43:15maybe similar values. So find people who
43:18are their skills are they complement
43:20you. They can do things that you can't
43:22do but you have that those same values.
43:25And so how you tease those out can be a
43:27little bit challenging. But for me, one
43:29of my personal values is curiosity. Like
43:31I'm a very curious person and I love
43:33pursuing curiosities. Like when I was a
43:36an undergrad at Stanford, I was a
43:38mechanical engineer until I was a senior
43:40and then I switched my major to biology.
43:42I took all kinds of classes in computer
43:44science and I took biochemistry classes
43:46and I took I actually had a minor in
43:49math for a brief second and then I had
43:51to switch one of my math classes to
43:53count towards my biology degree. But
43:55basically, I would be interested in
43:56something and I would just go try to
43:58learn it. I would just go head first.
44:00And I've done that all throughout my
44:02professional career as well. And it's a
44:04great way to learn new skill, new
44:06skills. And I really like working with
44:08people who have that same type of
44:10mentality. So, if I'm interviewing
44:13somebody, one thing that I I like to
44:15learn about is a time that they've gone
44:18and learned something that was
44:19completely outside their skill set or
44:21they got really really into something
44:22that is maybe completely unrelated to
44:26>> uh what you're working on. Uh, a great
44:28example is I actually worked for a brief
44:30period of time at RO,
44:32>> very big biotech company and we were
44:34hiring for our team and there was a a
44:38man who came in who didn't have very
44:40much biochemistry experience at all, but
44:43you could tell that he wanted to learn
44:45so badly and he was previously like a
44:48lifeguard. and he talked about the
44:50methodology that went into the way that
44:52he put chlorine in the pool and
44:54perfectly balanced the pH and he just
44:56got so into it and so scientific about
44:58it that you could tell like this guy
45:00would be a great chemist
45:03>> and so if you're willing to mentor
45:04someone like that
45:06>> um they can become a great employee.
45:09>> So I want to ask about transparency
45:10Tyler you mentioned that as a kind of
45:11key value of yours which you've learned
45:13pretty fundamentally in your time at
45:15Therronos. Um, and I know in the startup
45:18world there's often this view that you
45:19can't to be too transparent for you
45:21might share your secrets and others
45:23might get your ideas and take them or
45:25use them. And so how do you balance
45:27questions about when and how to be
45:29transparent in the midst of that threat
45:31out there? And I know their notes went
45:33to the extreme on hiding their own
45:35secrets. How do you make the right
45:36decisions around transparency?
45:39>> Yeah, it's it's really really tough. And
45:42again, that's I mean, that's a true like
45:43ethical dilemma when one of your values
45:45is transparency, but then you're faced
45:47with a situation where that could
45:49actually hurt you. And that can happen a
45:51lot at companies and in startups. And
45:53it's good to to think about those
45:55situations ahead of time before they
45:57happen so you know actually how you will
46:00behave. And I actually think back to one
46:02of the excuses Elizabeth gave about
46:04being so secretive was that she said
46:07there were Chinese spies in Silicon
46:08Valley trying to steal the technology.
46:10Mhm.
46:11>> And there was a time when I thought that
46:12was, you know, completely made up. It
46:14was just a justification.
46:16And then actually a Chinese company did
46:19steal the technology of my first
46:21company, Flux Biosciences.
46:23>> Wow.
46:23>> And it was a little bit bittersweet
46:25because they published some papers out
46:27of China that was a complete replication
46:29of our technology and the data looked
46:31amazing, right? [laughter] So in a way
46:33it was validation that what we were
46:35doing
46:36>> um you know was legit but at the same
46:38time it became an impossible narrative
46:40to tell investors when they would ask
46:42what are you going to do about this
46:43company in China that has exactly
46:45replicated the thing you were building
46:47right so there's truth to that you can't
46:49be too transparent because people will
46:51steal your technology and in somewhere
46:53like China it can be really hard to
46:55enforce that especially as a small
46:57startup maybe Apple can enforce it
46:59>> but you know someone with a seed round
47:00is not going to be able to enforce that
47:02>> and So, when the investors ask what
47:04you're going to do, do you want to say
47:06I'm going to spend your money on
47:07lawsuits to prevent this company from
47:10stealing our our technology, or are you
47:12going to say we're going to let it go?
47:15>> Neither answer is very good. So, you do
47:17actually I I've learned that you do have
47:19to be a little bit careful about the
47:21technology that you're building. But
47:23where I think it really crossed a line
47:24at Theronos was where it prevented
47:27colleagues from collaborating. Like the
47:30person in the first lab that I joined,
47:33we just developed antibodies for the
47:34tests
47:35>> and no no not a single person I worked
47:38with ever saw the product we were
47:40working on. So the people who had
47:41developed the antibodies would pass
47:43these antibodies off and they would
47:45never speak to the people who then
47:46developed the tests using those
47:48antibodies. then they would pass it off
47:50and they would never speak to the person
47:52who validated that test and then they
47:54would pass it off and they would never
47:55speak to the person who ramped up that
47:58test for production to test real
48:00patients. Then they would pass it off
48:02and they would never test to they would
48:04never talk to the laboratory technician
48:06that actually tested the real patients.
48:08And when you have intentional blocks to
48:10communication at every single one of
48:12those steps, it's going to fail. there's
48:15no way that this is going to work if you
48:17don't allow these scientists to
48:19collaborate and debug things. Um, it's
48:22just it's it's an impossible way to do
48:25science and I think it's an an
48:27impossible way to conduct business in in
48:30non-scientific areas as well.
48:33>> Well, you're a person of tremendous
48:35integrity and wisdom. Um, how do you
48:38stay true to who you are? How do you
48:40maintain your character in the midst of
48:42your daily life?
48:47I think a big part of it is just by
48:49surrounding myself with people who know
48:52who I am and who value who I am. So I
48:54don't often feel pressures to change the
48:57person that I am. And that really helps
48:59me stay true to myself and a lot of
49:02credit I have to give to my wife for
49:04that. You know, we have very
49:04complimentary values. She's very
49:06supportive of uh the type of work that I
49:09do. She's very supportive of me, wanting
49:11to be home with my family as much as I
49:13possibly can be. Um, and that that
49:16extends to to your friends as well, just
49:18surrounding yourself with like-minded
49:20people who necessarily don't do the
49:22same, just like when you're hiring
49:24people who may not necessarily do the
49:26same types of things that you do, but
49:27value the same things that you do.
49:29>> Were your friends surprised to know that
49:30you were the therronos whistleblower?
49:34>> So, I would say that they were shocked,
49:36but not surprised. M
49:38>> there was certainly shock value in
49:40opening that newspaper and seeing that I
49:43was a Thanos whistleblower because I
49:44told nobody. I was so secretive. I
49:47didn't tell my housemates. I didn't even
49:48tell my girlfriend at the time that this
49:51was going on. Um I didn't tell her until
49:53right before the Wall Street Journal
49:55published that I was a whistleblower.
49:58>> Um so my friends were shocked to read
50:01that, but at the same time I don't think
50:03they were surprised because they knew
50:05the type of person that I was. They they
50:07knew that I had behaved similarly in
50:10other situations in the past and they
50:13all just celebrated me. They were all so
50:15happy for me. They were so proud of me.
50:17I remember that first day after I went
50:19on the record, I came home uh to the
50:21house that I was renting with like six
50:23friends and they just thrown a big party
50:25for me and we popped champagne and at
50:28the same time I was getting this
50:30outpouring of support from the general
50:33community. LinkedIn messages, text
50:35messages, emails. I was just I was just
50:38completely supported
50:39>> when I came out as a whistleblower. I
50:41>> think that support is so valuable to
50:43this work.
50:44>> Yes. And I certainly don't take it for
50:46granted. I know that most
50:47whistleblowers, you know, their stories
50:49do not end as happy as mine has. Um so
50:52I'm just I'm very grateful that that
50:54things really have worked out for me.
50:56>> And it seemed like it was very lonely
50:58when it was happening. I mean, you were
50:59really talking about you couldn't tell
51:01anybody uh about this happening. You
51:03only your lawyers, not even your parents
51:04for a while, you couldn't tell. So, how
51:06do you think about the time of sort of
51:08that real sort of constraint um with
51:10this moments now of really being able to
51:12live a life where you can be open um
51:14with your friends and family?
51:16>> Oh, yeah. I mean, trying to just holding
51:18this in as a secret for so long was one
51:20of the hardest things that I ever did in
51:22my life.
51:23>> And I think maybe that's part of the
51:25reason why I'm speaking so much about it
51:26now is that years later, I still have
51:28all these this pent up uh almost like
51:31emotion and and stories. And it's just
51:33it feels so good to be able to talk
51:35about it. But to really illustrate how
51:37closed off I was, I blocked every single
51:40number in my phone because I was afraid
51:43that someone would text me, "Oh, I
51:45remember you telling me XYZ about
51:47Theronos when you worked there."
51:49>> And this is when Theronos was
51:50threatening to sue me and I thought
51:52something like that could, you know,
51:54maybe cause huge problems for me. So I
51:56blocked every single number in my phone
51:58book. I only communicated over Snapchat.
52:00I pretty much fell off the face of the
52:02earth to most of my friends. Nobody knew
52:05where I was, what I was doing because I
52:07was so stressed that a simple question
52:10like, "Hey, how are you doing? What what
52:12did you do today?" I didn't know how to
52:14answer that question because the answer
52:16was I was up in San Francisco with my
52:18lawyers, you know, trying to negotiate
52:21my way out of this crisis all day every
52:24day for like four months and I couldn't
52:26tell anyone that. And so [clears throat]
52:28I'd have to lie. I would have to say,
52:29"Oh, I was, you know, in lab at on
52:31campus or and I just hated having to do
52:34that." So, I just really cut myself off
52:36from the world.
52:38Um, but to get find some companionship,
52:41I did end up dating a woman that I met
52:43on Tinder
52:44>> and she was a bioengineering student at
52:48PhD student actually at Stanford. And
52:50so, when the Wall Street Journal started
52:52publishing about this, this was big news
52:54in the bioengineering world at Stanford.
52:56So she and all of her friends were
52:59constantly talking about me in front of
53:01me without having any idea that they
53:03were talking about me.
53:04>> Wow.
53:05>> So I really felt like a fly on the wall
53:08of my own life.
53:10>> And the only way I could get relief from
53:13that was to finally go on the record.
53:15Like the only way for me to to safely
53:17tell my friends and my girlfriend about
53:20what was going on was to tell the whole
53:21world.
53:23>> And you did and very bravely. So, thank
53:25you for doing that.
53:26>> Thanks. So, Tyler, you tell the story a
53:29lot. You speak now publicly about your
53:31experience at Theronos. What is it like
53:33though to talk about a story that was so
53:35difficult and so traumatic for you
53:37personally and do it over and over
53:39again? How does that feel for you?
53:41>> Yeah. So, I'm actually really glad that
53:43I've been able to take time, this period
53:46of time in my life to dedicate myself to
53:49do this because I had obviously been
53:51speaking for a while now, but I've been,
53:53it wasn't my focus. my focus was on my
53:55startups and this was something I would
53:56occasionally do on the side. And I
53:58really like that I've now now that
53:59Elizabeth and Sunny are in prison that I
54:02can be a little bit more reflective on
54:03these experiences that I've set aside
54:05time just to dedicate to doing this. And
54:08I found it to be very rewarding because
54:10it was by far the most negative
54:13experience of my life.
54:15>> But when I do things like this, it helps
54:17turn it into a positive experience.
54:20>> And I find that to be incredibly
54:22rewarding. uh just personally
54:25and what it's like to retell the stories
54:27over and over. It's actually different
54:30every time. Um sometimes it feels like
54:33I'm reading it out of a book. And
54:35sometimes I feel like I'm back in that
54:37moment.
54:39>> And when I get up and start talking, I
54:41never know which one it's going to be.
54:43>> And sometimes it's harder to tell the
54:46story than other times. And when I start
54:49having that feeling, I change the types
54:50of stories that I might tell. Um, so I
54:54found that every event ends up being a
54:56little bit different.
54:57>> Well, there's so much we could talk
54:58about, Tyler. Um, but I think your
55:01experience is so rich with so much
55:02insight and and wisdom. And so given
55:05your experiences, um, at their notes and
55:07beyond, what advice would you have for
55:09young people who maybe in your same
55:11shoes when you were looking for
55:12internships or looking for new jobs in
55:14your 20s
55:16>> uh, about starting their careers and
55:17what should they be looking for in a job
55:20and looking out for in a new job? Yeah.
55:22Well, first of all, I would just say
55:25pursue your curiosities. And sometimes
55:28that can be hard to do. You feel like
55:30you've made a decision and you're stuck
55:31with it. Like maybe you've committed to
55:33being a premed major or something like
55:34that and you realize I don't want to be
55:36a doctor for the rest of my life. Now is
55:38the time to to make that change. Um just
55:41like when
55:44uh Sunny called me arrogant, ignorant,
55:46patronizing, reckless, like I think
55:49students, young people are in this
55:51amazing part of their life right now
55:54where they can take the opportunity to
55:56speak truth to power, to start a
55:58company, to change their majors, to
55:59change their field. So my number one
56:01piece of advice would be to take this
56:03opportunity, pursue your curiosities,
56:05find what you love doing because I
56:07really believe that competency follows
56:09curiosity. So that's my number one piece
56:11of advice. And then as far as finding a
56:13place to work and interviewing,
56:15something that I would really recommend
56:17doing, which might take a little bit of
56:18courage to do, but when you have the
56:20opportunity to ask your interviewer a
56:22question, you should ask them, "What are
56:24the core values of this company?" And if
56:26they don't know, I think that's a really
56:28big red flag. They should there should
56:30be like three or four core values that
56:32every single employee at a at a company
56:35should know and they should tell you
56:37what's important to that company and it
56:39should be a framework on how to make
56:40decisions and if they don't have that I
56:42I think that's a big red flag. I
56:45personally
56:47am also very very wary of stealth mode
56:49startups in general. Like I maybe it's
56:53just my personality. I need to be able
56:55to talk about what I'm doing. If I have
56:57to feel like I'm working at the CIA, I
57:00don't want to work there. If I can't
57:01tell my wife about what I'm doing, I
57:02don't want to work there. And I think it
57:06comes back to this kind of issue with
57:08transparency. stealth mode startups say
57:11that they don't want someone to steal
57:12their technology, but I think that there
57:14are other ways to defend it
57:16>> and sometimes they take the stealth mode
57:19a little bit too far and it can really
57:21be a way of of hiding other things.
57:25>> Well, in the spirit of your advice, what
57:27are your three core values? [laughter]
57:29>> Uh, family, curiosity, and authenticity.
57:33And I try as best I can to make
57:36decisions in my life through the lens of
57:38those three core values. Um the main one
57:41is family, especially right now. Is what
57:43I'm doing the best thing that I can do
57:45for my family?
57:47>> Yeah, that's great. Well, you're really
57:48an embodiment, Tyler, of courage, of
57:51authenticity, of character under immense
57:54pressure. And so we're just very to have
57:56a chance to talk to you today about your
57:57story and think about what we can learn
57:59from your lessons of character and
58:01leadership. So thank you very Yeah,
58:03thank you so much for having me. Really
58:04appreciate it. Great.

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