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A Conversation with Dr. Yusef Salaam of the Exonerated Five | Higher Learning | The Ringer — Transcript

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0:00uh yes we have a very very special
0:03episode of higher learning today where
0:05we're going to be joined um
0:07by a man who's seen firsthand
0:10what the american
0:12cultural system can do to you his name
0:14is yusef
0:15he is one of the five boys
0:18that was unfairly prosecuted and then
0:21convicted
0:22of a crime they did not commit in
0:24central park new york you guys know them
0:26as the central park five they prefer to
0:28be called the exonerated five
0:30um
0:31and he has a new book coming out
0:33about many things but one of them is
0:35about how you walk around
0:37having been wronged by the system but
0:40you turn that bitterness into betterness
0:43and this was an incredibly powerful talk
0:46uh and we're happy to have yousef salam
0:48uh here's the interview rachel and i did
0:51we are delighted to have somebody very
0:53special joining us today
0:54um someone who's
0:57life experience and learned experience
1:00are just simply
1:01sensational and really worth everybody
1:05diving into and knowing about so much
1:07of this brother's life
1:09and what he's overcome and what he's
1:10become speak directly to some of the
1:12things that
1:14we talk about
1:15on this very podcast the man's name is
1:17dr youssef salam and he is a prison
1:19reform activist
1:21motivational speaker and a justice
1:24seeker he is he's got a brand new book
1:26uh
1:27that came out this year it's called
1:29better not bitter
1:31living on purpose in pursuit
1:34of racial justice but came out earlier
1:37this year now
1:38you see the word better not bitter you
1:40guys might think hey why does it start
1:41that way because
1:43if there was anyone in the world
1:45who
1:46would have a complete past to be bitter
1:49it would be
1:50this gentleman
1:51in case you didn't know
1:53at 15 years old in 1989
1:56dr salaam was tried and convicted in the
1:58now infamous central park jogger case of
2:01course he was later exonerated along
2:03with four other
2:05black and brown boys of what went on
2:07there they came to be known as the
2:09central park five then i like to call
2:11them the exonerated five now so a lot of
2:15what you've gone through and done in
2:16your life
2:17i would imagine is a result of living
2:20through that experience so just
2:22we'll start there since it's one of the
2:24more notorious happenings
2:26in terms of criminal justice uh really
2:29in american history
2:31what did going through all of that at 15
2:34years old and coming out to be who you
2:36are tell you about yourself and tell you
2:38about american society
2:40so it told me that we are resilient as a
2:43people it told me that
2:45the society that we know of or that we
2:48imagine america to be is really for a
2:51lot of people who look like me
2:54it is the american nightmare
2:56but
2:57in this nightmare that we find ourselves
2:59in we also can find life we also can
3:02find
3:03ways to move forward and also to push
3:05the culture forward to push the
3:07community forward and most importantly
3:09to push yourself forward
3:13you
3:14you're the title of your book better not
3:16bitter
3:17something that i struggle with quite a
3:19bit to be honest with you and
3:21knowing you know like for those of you
3:23who have who who don't know please read
3:25up on it if you haven't seen the film
3:28watch it but knowing what what you've
3:30gone through and then seeing where we
3:32are today as a society and it it it's
3:36tough it's tough to turn on the news
3:38it's tough to read the news
3:40it it really is a struggle
3:43how
3:44can we be better and not better
3:48you know it's the it's the reality i
3:50believe that
3:52nelson mandela was trying to get at
3:54when he said to be angry and bitter is
3:56like drinking poison and expecting your
3:58enemy to die
4:00it absolutely affects you the most it
4:03absolutely harms you the most right we
4:05have to be
4:06what i always refer to dr maya angelou
4:09would say
4:10that you should be angry anger changes
4:13anger allows you to stand up for
4:15yourself and change the conditions that
4:17you may find yourself in
4:19she said you should be angry but you
4:20must not be bitter
4:22and then she said bitterness is like a
4:23cancer it eats upon the host it doesn't
4:26do anything to the object of his
4:27displeasure
4:29then she teaches us the alchemy so use
4:31that anger you dance it you march it you
4:34vote it you do everything about it
4:37you talk it never stop talking it
4:40it's not something that you come to just
4:42like that it happens overnight you
4:44figure it out you got the epiphany and
4:46you're better for it but the truth of
4:49the matter is that it takes time for you
4:51to grow through
4:52the experience as opposed to just go
4:54through and experience when you go
4:56through an experience you might curse
4:58god out you might say why me
5:01but everybody wants the diamonds in life
5:03and a diamond cannot be made unless
5:05pressure and more pressure and then the
5:08diamond is cut to prove that it's a
5:11diamond
5:12and that's what life i think it it it
5:14life is about
5:16for those of us that rise to the
5:18challenge it's about us understanding
5:20that life is trying to create the
5:22survivors that are the most fittest
5:25the ones who are able to
5:27point the way the ones who are able to
5:29turn up their light in the world of
5:30darkness
5:32because right now we see it seems like
5:33we're in a situation where
5:35it's two steps forward one step back
5:37we've been playing this tag tango
5:40in what i call the divided states of
5:42america right we want to be united we
5:44want to be able to appear united we want
5:46us as a people to finally
5:48become one
5:50and when we look at the origin stories
5:53of where
5:54this country came from
5:56we realized that we did not we were not
5:58born out of
6:00peace and justice
6:02we were born out of violent
6:05terrifying
6:07struggle oppression
6:09the people who were imported to this
6:12country and made to work for free from
6:14can't see sunup to can't see sun down
6:17and here we are now on the heels of that
6:20being told in many ways to pull
6:21ourselves up by our bootstraps
6:24and like dr king said that's that's one
6:26of the most cruelest things to say to a
6:27bootless man but the beautiful thing
6:30about it is that we have the opportunity
6:31to look at
6:33the things that we have gone through
6:35and realize that when we
6:37rise to the occasion
6:39we find that we actually grew through
6:41something we're better for what it for
6:43what happened to us we're more resilient
6:46we are the diamonds
6:49so over your left shoulder i see
6:51something that says bring back the death
6:53penalty
6:54uh is that does that happen to be
6:57um
6:59a framing of the insert that that donald
7:01trump took out uh in the new york times
7:04absolutely absolutely i i have that here
7:08in my office just as a reminder
7:10because i had to be introduced to what
7:13america was introduced to
7:15quite recently and even by quite
7:17recently i'm talking about
7:19even as far as you know the the the
7:23terrorism that happened at the capitol
7:25um
7:27this ad
7:29i have to remind people it wasn't
7:32created two weeks after we had gone to
7:35trial
7:36we live in a country that says you're
7:37innocent until proven guilty
7:39but yet people looked at the color of
7:41our skin and judged us
7:44by that color and not the content of our
7:46character
7:47they they created the you know donald
7:49trump created this ad paid 85 000 for it
7:52put it in new york city's newspapers two
7:54weeks after we were accused
7:56and what was this saying it was saying
7:59that
8:00we want what happened to emmett till
8:03to happen to them
8:04it was the most terrifying whisper in
8:08the darkest enclaves of society because
8:10they published our names phone numbers
8:12and addresses in new york city's
8:14newspapers
8:15and folks have to remember we were 14 15
8:18and 16 year old children
8:20and this is what we were meant with
8:22you know donald trump taking out this ad
8:25calling for the reinstatement of the
8:27death penalty
8:28and really seizing on the fears of the
8:30public to make people believe that black
8:32and brown
8:34was a crime
8:36so let me ask you something that happens
8:38in
8:391989
8:41donald trump then
8:43uh goes through
8:44a sort of an image rebranding
8:48to where in the early parts of the 2000s
8:51he was
8:52fairly well liked
8:54you know even in the late 90s fairly
8:56well liked you saw politicians from both
8:59sides uh at events for him
9:02you also saw him on television
9:05as you know the apprentice guy one of
9:07the biggest stars on television
9:09during this time
9:11it would have been around the time that
9:12you had just gotten out of jail that you
9:15had just gotten out of prison what was
9:17it like for you to watch
9:19a guy who you knew
9:21harbored these types of emotions
9:24rise up through american not just
9:26through a man he was already rich but
9:28rise up through the american american
9:29pop culture and then go on to become the
9:31president
9:32after you know
9:34that he had wanted you dead just two
9:36weeks and before you had had your day in
9:37court what was it like to watch donald
9:39trump become who he became
9:40it was it was very difficult and that's
9:43that's not even using the right words
9:45right
9:46um when i was younger my mother would
9:47always tell me to use your words and i'm
9:50trying to figure out what's the right
9:52description
9:54to give you in the in the viewing
9:56audience and listening audience so that
9:58they can understand
10:00you know for me on the one hand i had
10:02come home from prison and i'm 6'3 right
10:06back then i had a flat top i came home
10:08from prison no longer had a flat top but
10:10i was still 6'3
10:12and
10:13to be very honest about
10:15my existence i was hiding in plain sight
10:19i didn't want folks to know who i was i
10:21didn't want to be recognized and that
10:23was a very difficult thing
10:25because here i am this tall walking
10:27around the neighborhood some people are
10:29saying that guy looks familiar
10:31you know now it's a blessing
10:34and it's an honor to stand up even when
10:36we were fighting for justice and we were
10:39we were um we were
10:41um
10:43adopting the moniker that was placed on
10:45us the central park five and calling
10:46ourselves that
10:47it was an honor because we stood up in
10:49defiance of everything the system wanted
10:52us to do
10:53the system wanted us to cower
10:55the system wanted us to be afraid
10:58but what is fear
11:00is this false evidence appearing real
11:03and once we stood up and realized that
11:05we were able to conquer our fear
11:07yes it was a a quite disturbing thing to
11:10see a person like donald trump rise up
11:13the ladder of success
11:15becoming
11:16uh the the american dream right i mean
11:19think about it
11:20hip-hop artists one of my one of my
11:22favorite hip-hop artists nas i remember
11:25he rapped about
11:26you know being being um rich and famous
11:29like donald trump and marla maple back
11:31then you know and it's that whole idea
11:33that in the black and brown community
11:35he was
11:36he was accepted
11:38and he was respected as a person that we
11:41could all attain
11:43that same level of success
11:45what we didn't realize
11:47was that we have this skin color
11:50that america always says
11:53you
11:54you're innocent until proven guilty
11:57but for black and brown bodies we're
11:59always seen as the crime we're always
12:01seen as guilty having to prove ourselves
12:02innocent
12:04and so it's terribly tremendously
12:05difficult to have seen that but then at
12:08the same time too
12:10you almost
12:12you almost appreciate
12:14later on in life
12:16being able to be introduced to that kind
12:20of madness
12:21so that it doesn't take you out of your
12:23mind so it allows you to still
12:25move forward allows you to at least have
12:28some type of um opportunity that you
12:31create for yourself
12:33and say i'm going to do this in spite of
12:35this
12:36i'm not gonna allow for that to define
12:39me i'm gonna define for my own self just
12:41like my mother said
12:43you know i never forget i talk about
12:45this in my book better not bitter
12:47my mother said um she said they need you
12:49to participate in whatever it is that
12:51they're trying to do
12:53do not participate she said
12:55refuse
12:57and so my life i think at a very young
12:59age has also always been
13:02a refusal to look to accept the
13:04definition
13:06that the system gives all of us
13:09that is anything less than
13:11being born on purpose
13:13and being born with a purpose
13:16like we have to know that
13:18you know you talk about
13:21i mean this happened in 1989 i was four
13:23years old
13:24and when when they see us came out it's
13:28you know some of us may have been
13:29familiar with what happened but we
13:31really didn't know
13:33and i'm i'm curious for you what it was
13:35like being back in the spotlight again
13:37when this came out when they see us came
13:39out reliving that story but then having
13:42a new generation respond to it what has
13:45that been like for you
13:46i tell you it's been one of the most
13:48powerful experiences ever we were
13:51introduced to the public again
13:53um
13:54in a more positive way with the
13:56documentary that ken burns produced with
13:58his daughter fantastic her husband right
14:00yeah yeah that was one of the most
14:02powerful things because for us he gave
14:04us the ability to get our voices back we
14:06were the narrators
14:08he narrates all of his films but he gave
14:10us the opportunity to tell our story for
14:12ourselves and folks who got a chance to
14:15see us
14:16who went to theaters and watched the
14:18film for that two hour period
14:20they
14:21it was almost as if we were watching
14:23people get religion for the first time
14:26they were they were listening and
14:27watching a raymond santana at 14 years
14:30old
14:31talk about
14:32his false confession and then reading
14:34his false confession
14:36and then looking up midway
14:38and asking what 14 year old boy talks
14:42like this right i mean this false
14:43confession read something like at
14:45approximately 1900 hours me and a group
14:47of my colleagues begin to walk south
14:50yeah
14:51people in 1989 believed that it was a
14:54slam dunk they were like wow they got
14:56the false conf they got the confessions
14:57they should have said they got the false
14:59confession those who have been
15:00unfortunately ran over by the spike was
15:02of justice understood what was at stake
15:05but
15:05to be able to be
15:07in the spotlight in us in a space of
15:11like
15:12we're infamous
15:14to then be back in the spotlight and
15:17being welcomed that psychosocial dynamic
15:21that every single person needs
15:23to be welcomed back into society to be
15:26hugged back by people who are telling
15:29you that we want you when we need you
15:31here
15:32was a blessing and it and it made it
15:34more easier
15:35for
15:36the success the global success might i
15:39add
15:40of when they see us
15:42because we had already been introduced
15:44to being in front of people to being in
15:46the public's eye
15:47but to see the response and the
15:49outpouring of love
15:52and
15:52appreciation from the world
15:56was powerful it's still powerful i'm
15:59still receiving
16:00people's responses through social media
16:02saying
16:03i just saw your film
16:05god bless you brothers i mean that's a
16:08that's a beautiful thing
16:10to still be in that space to have books
16:14um like my memoir right people know the
16:17story but they don't know
16:19the full story of every single one of us
16:21they know they're big they've been
16:23acquainted with it and in some depths
16:26they've been acquainted especially
16:27because of the case
16:29but we're also
16:31human beings that had lives that we
16:33lived prior to that and then even after
16:36after that that we're still living now
16:38right
16:40uh
16:41so
16:42we're going through a time right now
16:44where we're doing our best on social
16:46media and in real life to reckon
16:49the real and actual truth of sexual
16:52assault and violence against women
16:55over the that that has gone on
16:58since
16:58the dawn of patriarchy right since the
17:02men have tried since men have dominated
17:04anyone they've tried to specifically
17:06dominate women
17:07when someone is accused of a crime of a
17:10certain nature a sexual crime against a
17:12woman
17:13uh and people are arguing for the
17:15innocence of that man you'll hear you
17:16guys's name brought up
17:18you'll hear hey
17:20bill cosby
17:21they're trying to give bill cosby the
17:23same thing they did to
17:24the exonerated five the central park
17:26five hey they're trying to get this
17:28person harvey weinstein they're trying
17:29to get whomever or smear somebody's name
17:33just like they did the central park five
17:35or or you know sometimes they bring up
17:37immaterial or other people like that who
17:39were
17:40clearly not guilty of these crimes
17:42uh that were that they were accused of
17:45when you hear your story being injected
17:49into that conversation into that
17:51discourse or people saying hey this is
17:53the same thing they did to this guy just
17:55like they did to the central park five
17:57the exonerated five
17:59what do you think of that how does it
18:00make you feel and what do you think
18:03about the conversation
18:06surrounding
18:07a sexual violence sexual assault and
18:09rape how do you feel about it given the
18:12fact that you were uh unjustly and
18:15wrongly accused and then exonerated of
18:17that very crime
18:19i gotta tell you first of all we're
18:20talking about justice we're talking
18:22about
18:23people's rights and people's honor right
18:26i come from a faith that says that you
18:28have to give people their rights you
18:30have to
18:31uphold the value and the honor in people
18:34and unfortunately we live in a society
18:36and really we live in a world where
18:39the value system has been
18:42placed in the gutter
18:44right it's like it's better to be
18:47like social media has done a tremendous
18:49um
18:51thing to people's psyche
18:53you post a photo
18:54and you sit there and you wait
18:57and you hope that people like your photo
19:00and the more people like your photo the
19:02better you feel about yourself and so
19:04in this unnaturalness right it's the
19:06same thing like prison prison was such
19:09an unnatural space that we made normal
19:12we had to then begin to unravel and and
19:15turn back all of the unnaturalness that
19:18we found to be normal
19:20and realize that it was unknown it was
19:22not normal
19:24the rest of the world is normal right
19:26in the space of of of
19:28um
19:29[Music]
19:30oppression
19:31and i'm going to use it from that grand
19:33perspective
19:34and the and the victims of oppression
19:37you know i can only use my case as the
19:40greatest example for me
19:42because when i think about the central
19:43park jogger case i think about all of
19:44the individuals including my mother and
19:46my sister and my family my brother who
19:49were out there in the street saying that
19:51these guys didn't do this
19:53we know our children we know our family
19:55members we know our brothers right
19:57and we what they were saying essentially
20:00was that there should have been
20:02some
20:03some
20:04iota of something that would have said
20:07oh yeah yeah that person is capable of x
20:12with the centre-back jogger case
20:14they
20:15rush to judge us so quickly
20:18and i'm and i'm answering it this way to
20:20answer the greater question of what
20:22you're asking me they rushed to judge us
20:24so quickly
20:26that the real perpetrator
20:28was left
20:30to commit more crime
20:31[Music]
20:33we want like when i when i hear the
20:35conversation that is happening now
20:37especially after george floyd after
20:40brianna teller and countless others the
20:43list is continuing to grow and grow and
20:45grow after that
20:47what i find is that people have been
20:50really describing what they want
20:53to live in
20:54and that
20:55thing that they want to live in in is a
20:57system of true freedom justice and
20:59equality
21:00we definitely don't have that today
21:03we live in a duality when it comes to
21:06america that same duality that dr james
21:08baldwin said to be
21:10african-american
21:11is to be african without conscience
21:14an american without privilege
21:17he said to be relatively conscious in
21:18america is to be in a state of rage all
21:21the time
21:22and it's like why is that because you
21:24know the truth
21:25and yet you can't do anything about it
21:27and so the conversation has taken on the
21:30shape and the language of defunding and
21:33the language of abolition
21:36but what does that really mean at least
21:37for me
21:38what i found it to mean is that we don't
21:41want to live in a state of lawlessness
21:44we don't want to live in a state where
21:45we don't have a system
21:47we need to make sure that we demolish
21:50what is
21:51and build a system of inclusiveness
21:54with the bricks
21:56of the system that was
21:58because we can truly become a family
22:01that represents the kaleidoscope of the
22:03human family
22:04that's what we that's what we need but
22:06when we look at cases right
22:08of of of egregious acts
22:12we we rely on a justice system to be
22:15fair
22:17and unfortunately the justice system has
22:20never been fair
22:21and if they have been fair then we would
22:24we would we would be so much better as a
22:27people
22:28i'll never forget
22:30you know michael moore created a film
22:32some time ago called where to invade
22:34next
22:35and in the films he was talking about
22:38some of the prisons that are around the
22:40world
22:41and for the people who immigrated to
22:43this country
22:44who
22:45we recognize that this is a young nation
22:49and we look at the systems that we are
22:51underneath
22:52we are in a very punitive criminal
22:54justice system a system i call the
22:56criminal system of injustice
22:59we are not in a system that is
23:01balanced
23:02we are in a system that through the 13th
23:04amendment allows for slavery to continue
23:06by another name
23:08and then section two says that the
23:10government will have the power to
23:12enforce that
23:13through appropriate legislation
23:16and then when we look at like the the
23:18big names that we just talked about the
23:20bill
23:20cosby's the harvey weinsteins all of
23:22these big names that we just talked
23:24about
23:24i always focus in on the on the no name
23:27people the people who had their voices
23:29turned down
23:30because quite often in our community the
23:32ones who lack the capital
23:35or the ones who go to prison
23:38that's where we're at
23:40and that's the that's the real question
23:41and challenge that we have to try to
23:43figure out
23:44because we will always be
23:46uneasy we will always be um in a state
23:50of
23:52really for lack of a better description
23:54war
23:55and we will be the victims of that war
23:59[Music]
24:00you okay in 1989 the system
24:04failed you
24:06and the other four involved with that
24:08case and here we are in 2021 and as you
24:11just named other people that have been
24:13failed by the system and countless
24:15others as you stated as well
24:17you've dedicated your life to criminal
24:19justice reform among other things you've
24:22dedicated your life to
24:23how when you look at what's happening
24:25with the government when you look at
24:27congress's response or the lack thereof
24:29i should say how do you continue to have
24:32faith that things can change when
24:35they they didn't work in 1989 and here
24:38we are in 2021 and they're still not
24:40working how do you keep going
24:42and i guess this is more so for not just
24:44a question for myself but speaking to
24:46our our audience like how do you have
24:49the faith and the perseverance
24:51that things can change
24:54you know i was i was watching um
24:58i watched i watch series and and things
25:00like that kovac 19 has caused us to more
25:03so be bin watchers as opposed to just
25:05wanting to watch normal tv true
25:08very true and it's so funny because i
25:10was watching
25:12um i was watching the book of
25:15kanan or i think power three or
25:17something whatever shout out 50 cents
25:19i'm watching
25:21that and and what i found is that you
25:24you can really um
25:25find
25:26wisdom and nuggets right we as a people
25:29when we look at what we did
25:31back in the days
25:33and we find that we took lemons that
25:35life gave us and made lemonade right
25:38sometimes it wasn't the most righteous
25:40thing that we did but
25:42the wisdom in those times is what is
25:45what drives me right and so what what i
25:48wrote down
25:49was this statement that i saw
25:52and it said
25:54we guide by vision not by sight
25:58we have to live in a world of what has
26:01become known
26:03as afrofuturism
26:05where we look into the future and
26:07project everything that we want and say
26:10if only
26:12and then we work our way back to the
26:14current conditions that we find
26:15ourselves in
26:17writing down what we did along the way
26:19so that we can have a blueprint
26:21of how we can make it so
26:24yes we live in a world where we have
26:26tremendous despair
26:28will we see true justice freedom and
26:30equality in our lifetimes probably not
26:34but it's about moving the needle
26:36by the mere fact that you were born with
26:37this color skin
26:39you'd have to know that you were born
26:41automatically
26:43fighting on the right side
26:45because the whole world has said i can't
26:48breathe
26:49the whole world has said
26:51hands up don't shoot
26:53right the whole world
26:55their attention now those who used to be
26:58the children of former slave owners
27:00and the children of former slaves
27:03have locked arm and
27:04arm hoping praying
27:07marching
27:09for a better future
27:10and my contention is this that as we
27:13live our lives the best we can
27:15right we have to live in such a way
27:19that we know
27:21that
27:22what we do matters
27:24and so as we are passing the baton
27:27of our own dna back to the generations
27:30to come
27:31in that
27:32dioxyribonucleic acid is all of the
27:34things that will break the generational
27:36curses that we find ourselves in
27:39and so we have to
27:41live in a way
27:43that says
27:44they want us to turn our light down
27:47god gave us light to turn it up
27:50they want us to be silent
27:52god gave us a voice to be the voice of
27:54the voiceless
27:56what happens when you turn up the light
27:58that you have that your your personal
28:00light that you have
28:02first of all it attracts other people to
28:04you
28:05and it ensues
28:06all of the darkness around you
28:09there has to be hope
28:11because if there's no hope
28:13there is no future
28:17the man is dr youssef salaam the book is
28:20better not bitter living on purpose in
28:23pursuit of racial justice came out this
28:26year you need to go get it but more than
28:28anything
28:29you need to learn from this brother
28:31and learn from somebody who actually has
28:33experienced some of the things that we
28:35are seeking to mute and not just
28:37experience them but overcome them and
28:39shine brighter through them we are so
28:41happy to have had you today on higher
28:43learning bro
28:44uh
28:46it was it was amazing to meet you and
28:47amazing to talk to you man yes my
28:49pleasure and thank you for having me on
28:51your show
28:52can't wait to do part two three and four
28:55absolutely my man
28:57we live in this world and you know we
28:59have to one of the greatest things about
29:00it is that we have to be able to give a
29:03voice to those stories and issues
29:06that have been pushed to the margins of
29:07life because we find ourselves there we
29:09find our families there right and we
29:11hurt we hurt for them we want them to be
29:13able to be out of that condition
29:16you know even even a little bit
29:18because it's so much better
29:20right it's so much better we have to do
29:22everything we can
29:23yeah you're absolutely right absolutely
29:25right brother all right thank you for
29:27joining us today thank you so much all
29:29right my man my pleasure
29:33[Music]
29:42you

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