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A Catholic Apologist Challenged Everything I Believe (EP 198) — Transcript

by Bryce Crawford Podcast · 33,100 words · 4,771 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00Do you think that Protestants are going
0:02to hell because they're not Catholic?
0:03>> I would say that is parallel to the
0:05question, will non-Christians go to hell
0:08because they don't believe in Jesus? And
0:10the answer is, it depends. You go to
0:12heaven if you believe in Jesus. You
0:13don't believe in Jesus, you're a
0:14six-month old baby, you go to hell for
0:16eternity. Being honest, as I as we're
0:18talking, I'm like, man, these nuances
0:20feel like some sort of mental gymnastics
0:22for me. Every Christian articulation of
0:25salvation will have a nuanced
0:28explanation that could sound like hoops
0:30or a bunch of explanations like super
0:33complicated.
0:33>> But where I land on the Eucharist
0:36theology line is I don't believe it's
0:38just a symbol.
0:39>> The early Christians used that language.
0:40They said this is the medicine of
0:43immortality. Not that we earn eternal
0:46life by receiving the Eucharist. That
0:48death didn't kill Jesus. Jesus killed
0:50death.
0:52Am I going to hell because I'm not
0:53Catholic? Should I return back to Rome
0:56to the church? You know, what are the
0:58views of the sacraments, the Eucharist,
1:01Catholicism? Is it the true church?
1:03These are questions that I have been
1:04having and been pondering for a while
1:07now. And so, I thought no better way and
1:10no better person to sit down with than
1:12Catholic apologist Trent Horn to ask
1:14these questions. Trent, how are you
1:15doing,
1:16>> Rice? It's great to be here. Thanks for
1:17having me,
1:17>> man. Thanks for coming on. I got tons of
1:19questions for you. I mean I mean I think
1:21the overall main question to kind of get
1:23into it is like why Catholicism out of
1:27every
1:28tradition you could say within
1:30Christianity. What about Catholicism
1:33kind of draws you to it? Well, I think
1:35the biggest thing that draws me to
1:36Catholicism is Jesus's promise that he
1:39would establish one church. Not two
1:43churches, not five churches, not 10
1:45churches. And we got to figure out which
1:47one is the best one. but that Jesus
1:49would give us one church built on Peter
1:52and the other apostles and their
1:54successors to guide people into truth.
1:57And so if there is one church Jesus
1:59established, I'm going to ask myself,
2:02well, where is that church today? And
2:04someone might say, well, the church is
2:06just the invisible bond between all true
2:10Christians. That's the church. But to
2:12me, I have a hard time with that because
2:14I say, okay, well, can the church help
2:16me know what doctrines I'm supposed to
2:17believe? If that is what the church is,
2:20it's just everybody who's Christian,
2:21they make up the church. Well, I can't
2:24really ask them anything
2:25>> because they I mean, they all disagree
2:26about really important things like is it
2:29do I have a moral duty to baptize my
2:31baby? I have three kids,
2:33>> right?
2:34>> There are Protestants who will say it's
2:36bad for you to baptize a baby, you got
2:38to wait until they're older.
2:39>> And there's other Protestants like uh
2:41Presbyterians who would say it's a sin
2:43to not baptize them even though baptism
2:46doesn't regenerate. Then there's
2:47Protestants who would say, "Yeah, you
2:48need to baptize them because baptism is
2:50what saves even infants." And that's
2:52just one example. There's moral issues,
2:54theological issues.
2:55>> But what really draws me to the Catholic
2:57faith is its preservation over 2,000
2:59years the deposit of faith what Christ
3:02and the apostles have given to us uh
3:05that is there for us to believe and not
3:08just to try to decipher from scripture
3:10alone. Uh which results in a lot of
3:12these conflicting theological opinions.
3:14So that and then especially just reading
3:16the early church fathers when I read the
3:19earliest ones like St. Ignatius of
3:21Antioch. He wrote in the year 107, about
3:2470 years after the crucifixion.
3:26>> And when I look at him and say, okay,
3:27what are Christians like? This this is
3:29second generation Christianity, right?
3:31The apostles have passed away. What's
3:33this first church like? And he doesn't
3:35say, get together and read your Bibles.
3:38Uh there wasn't a compiled biblical
3:40cannon at this point. Uh instead, what
3:42he says is follow the bishop as Jesus
3:45Christ follows the father. Honor the
3:48priests and the deacons. If your church
3:50does not have deacons, priests, and
3:52bishops, it's not a true church. For
3:55Ignatius, authority was in the church of
3:58Christ, and the church was found in the
4:00bishops, those who have succeeded the
4:01apostles. So, history, scripture, all of
4:05that is what really led me from
4:07non-religious dism
4:10I've been a Dist.
4:13>> And then in high school, uh, I became
4:16Christian. I was watch I just watched
4:18like William Lane Craig debates. Well,
4:20watch I listened to them. This is before
4:21YouTube. I just like went and scoured
4:24the internet. I read them and I
4:25downloaded them
4:26>> and William Lane Craig JP Morland seeing
4:29these debates with atheists. I was like,
4:30"Oh, wait. No, there's really good
4:32evidence that God exists and Jesus rose
4:34from the dead."
4:35>> And so I I was like I prayed like Jesus
4:37I believe in you. You're real. Help me
4:39to love you. And then it's like okay now
4:41what church do I go to? M
4:42>> and that's what sent me down the path of
4:44studying history to determine that I
4:46wanted to be a part of the the Catholic
4:49church because Catholic is a Greek word
4:51for universal the one universal church
4:53Christ established.
4:54>> So that happened in high school. High
4:55school was the conversion of
4:58Christianity and then ultimately
5:00>> going down Catholicism and you've been
5:03>> Catholic since then. And how old are you
5:05now?
5:05>> I am 41. So I think just a few years ago
5:09I have spent more of my life being
5:11Catholic than not being Catholic.
5:13>> So I grew up in a pretty non-religious
5:16household, not really non-religious, not
5:18churchgoing. So my dad was Jewish, but
5:21he hadn't been to temple in a very long
5:23time. So nominal. My mom used to be
5:26Catholic and then she left the church.
5:27>> Okay.
5:28>> And so we we didn't go to church as a
5:30family. The most religious upbringing I
5:33had was my mom would show me these
5:34Hannah Barbara Bible cartoons.
5:37>> Uh the the same people who made the
5:39Flintstones and the Jetsons. They're
5:40super awesome. They're on YouTube.
5:41>> Wow.
5:42>> Definitely go and check them out. And
5:44and I liked that and I like these
5:45stories. But by the time I got to junior
5:47high, I you know asked my mom like,
5:48"Okay, these are neat stories, but how
5:50do you know they really happened?"
5:51>> And she couldn't give me a good answer
5:53>> and other people couldn't give me good
5:54answers. And so I became like the the
5:57pre-in atheist. I mean this would have
5:59been like 9798.
6:02So this is like the stone age period for
6:04the for the internet for us.
6:06>> Uh which by the way I I feel bad for
6:09your generation cuz like as a millennial
6:11older millennial when we went on the
6:13internet in like the late 90s early
6:152000s we felt like explorers in
6:18unchartered territory
6:20>> and it was it was fun and exciting and
6:22scary in parts. Uh but now I feel like
6:25when you go on the internet, it's so um
6:28commercial algorithm driven.
6:30>> Yeah.
6:30>> It's like when I went on the internet
6:31when I was your age, we were looking
6:33into the internet. But for you guys, the
6:35internet's looking into you and us.
6:37>> Yeah.
6:37>> And so it's like you're fighting an
6:38algorithm and bu companies just spent
6:40billions of dollars on you and all that
6:42>> like to keep you on the screen and
6:43things like that.
6:44>> Oh yeah. You're you're it's a drug that
6:45manipulates you. So in in doing that, so
6:48I was going on this is very early
6:49message boards where I was like debating
6:51other Christians and I felt like, okay,
6:53to be a Christian, you have to believe
6:55the earth is less than 10,000 years old,
6:57you know, and evolution never happened.
6:59And and I was like, well, I don't
7:00believe that. I'm in the young
7:01astronomers club, you know, I I like
7:03doing I love science when I'm a junior
7:05high kid. And so I thought, you know,
7:07science is all you need. Religion's a
7:09crutch. And then I realized, oh, science
7:12tells you the way the world is, not
7:14where the whole world came from. Or why
7:17the laws of physics are the same in all
7:19times and places. That's pretty wild.
7:21That we can trust scientific experiments
7:23that they're not they're not changing.
7:25The universe is constant speaks to
7:27design. Or science can't tell you the
7:29way things ought to be.
7:30>> Like you can do an experiment to figure
7:32out, okay, here's, you know, how the
7:34laws of gravity work, but laws of
7:36morality are different. Like you can't
7:39ignore the law of gravity. If you fall
7:41off a building, you're just going to go.
7:43You can ignore the law of morality that
7:45says like don't push this person off.
7:46>> Right.
7:47>> But it's like okay, so if I normally I
7:49can't ignore a law of nature. Just
7:51happens to me.
7:51>> Yeah.
7:52>> But I can ignore the laws of morality.
7:55>> That means they're not purely natural.
7:57>> There's something beyond nature about
7:58where morals come from. But at the time,
8:01you know, I didn't see this. I was
8:02debating people. But then I saw these
8:03other Protestant philosophers. William
8:05Lane Craig was an example. JP Morland
8:07saying, "No, you can believe in modern
8:09science and actually science and
8:10philosophy points to God and history
8:12points to the reality Jesus rose from
8:14the dead."
8:15>> And I was listening to the atheist
8:16rebuttals thinking, "Oh, wow. These are
8:18not very convincing rebuttals."
8:20>> And so then I just went through it and I
8:22went I even went to the atheist websites
8:23like read the essays and wrote notes in
8:25the margins like, "Yeah, what about
8:26this? What about that?" And then yeah,
8:28then um became Christian and then it was
8:31about another year later. So it would
8:32have been early 2000s. I was baptized in
8:342002 and then I was received into the
8:36Catholic Church.
8:37>> Amazing. Wow. So cool. Yeah. I have a
8:39lot of uh I have a lot of respect for
8:41Catholicism. I think over the years the
8:43hardest thing for me with Catholicism
8:46was and in an honest sincere way would
8:49like make a loose statement about
8:51Catholicism. That wouldn't be like the
8:53full truth, you know? And it's not like
8:55in a oh I was attacking Catholicism. It
8:57was just more like oh this is what I've
8:59known to be true about Catholicism. And
9:01it would be like a loose statement and
9:04it would be, you know, it wouldn't do
9:05Catholicism justice and it would just
9:08kind of like harm the reputation of
9:11sincere believers of Catholics.
9:13>> Had you known Catholicism just as you
9:15weren't raised Catholic?
9:16>> No. No. I was raised Southern Baptist
9:18and then became a Christian when I was
9:2017 and I am a non-denominational
9:24Protestant. Um, but I I've I've been to
9:26everything. I love going to mass. I
9:28think it's a beautiful place. I love and
9:30I I I mean I could sit here and go I
9:32love the tradition. I love
9:34>> the sacraments. I want to get into that.
9:36>> But when you're not raised in it, it can
9:37be hard. You don't know all the ins and
9:38outs for sure. So it's like when I I
9:40remember I used to do pro-life outreach
9:42and this was after I graduated college.
9:44This would have been in the early 2000s,
9:47like 2007, 2009, and we would go to
9:49college campuses with big pictures of
9:51unborn children before and after
9:53abortion to get people talking. And
9:55people would get mad at me like I I'm so
9:57angry. Why would you put this up? And
9:58I'm like, why are you mad at me? You
10:00know, I didn't do this to these
10:02children. You're more mad at me showing
10:04this than this actually happening in our
10:05country 3,000 times a day. And so it was
10:08we were half Catholic, half Protestants
10:09in this group.
10:10>> And so we were we have little debates
10:13and we had a lot of hosts. And when we
10:14would go to the South, like Alabama,
10:16Georgia, people would host us there. We
10:18had met people who had like never even
10:19talked to Catholics. Wow.
10:20>> I met this one nice lady. She's like,
10:22"Oh, it's been so great meeting y'all. I
10:24didn't I've never met a Catholic that
10:26loved Jesus."
10:27what it just well they just never like
10:30had met anybody and even like when we
10:31make like the sign of the cross Yeah.
10:33they would be kind of weirded out. And I
10:34said like, well, people have been doing
10:36this in the church. We have records
10:38going all the way back to the third
10:40century of that this is just it's just a
10:42a sign of saying like I believe, you
10:44know, the father's on my mind, the son's
10:45in my heart, the spirit is across my
10:47shoulders helping me carry
10:49>> everything that God gives me today to
10:51understand our trinitarian baptism. And
10:53it's just a sign of of offering
10:56>> prayer to God. Uh but it was great to be
10:58able to speak with them and and what I
10:59encountered was a lot of people would
11:00have these misconceptions about
11:02Catholicism. Yeah. You know, if you're
11:04not raised in it and the same thing
11:05happens to me, right? Like I'm trying to
11:06learn about Mormonism. I wasn't raised
11:07Mormon. So I So right now
11:10>> when I make videos about Mormonism,
11:13>> I email Mormon apologists. Yeah.
11:16>> And I say, "Actually, I'm doing this now
11:17for as many people as I can. I say,
11:18"Hey, I'm making a video about what you
11:20believe. Here's my script. Did I get
11:22anything wrong
11:23>> about what you believe or did I
11:24misunderstand your argument?"
11:26>> Wow. And that's what I'm trying to do.
11:27Even when like I talk about
11:28Protestantism, like different
11:30Protestants I'll send my scripts to just
11:32to say, and I think it's in like the
11:34online apologetics world, it's like, I'm
11:36going to refute you. I'm going to own
11:38you.
11:38>> It's like we don't have to have that
11:40attitude. Like I think my argument is
11:42strong. So it's like, hey, I'm not going
11:43to surprise you. Here's what I'm going
11:44to say. If I got something wrong, tell
11:46me. Yeah.
11:47>> That way you can't later say, "Oh, Trent
11:49mis misrepresented me." No, we we talked
11:51about this.
11:51>> Yeah. That's good. Yeah. That's why I've
11:53been looking forward to this is because
11:54I'm, you know, I'm I'm verbally I'm
11:58trying to honestly and verbally process
12:00and understand Catholicism because
12:02again, you know, I I mean, I grew up in
12:04a small town north of Atlanta about an
12:05hour. So, I think a majority of any
12:08Catholic church would be in Atlanta.
12:10That's
12:11>> and then you go outside.
12:12>> I was just there. I I had an interview
12:14with I finally got to sit down with
12:15William Lane Craig because he's like my
12:17hero.
12:17>> Amazing. which is which is funny because
12:19like a few years like two years ago I
12:21made a video saying I thought he was
12:22wrong about a certain argument the calam
12:24argument but then we just sat down and
12:26like I could have done it virtual but
12:28like he was like I mean he was like the
12:29guy that led me to Christ.
12:30>> Yeah.
12:31>> And it was just like
12:32>> and he's got great books on apologetics.
12:33>> Oh it's it's awesome.
12:34>> Great.
12:35>> And so there's a lot I agree with.
12:36There's stuff I disagree with. But for
12:38me I was I told him he's like why'd you
12:39want to do all this expense just to come
12:41down? So what you're describing it was
12:43up in I think it's like Alpharetta or
12:44Marietta I think was up there. So near
12:46your old stomping grounds. Yep.
12:48>> And we were there and uh I said, you
12:51know, Bill, I I just really wanted to
12:52meet you. You know, you you were so, you
12:55know, that your work and the how it
12:57brought me to Jesus is just so powerful.
12:59And we and when we had our interview, it
13:01was crazy how much we had in common.
13:03Like I met my wife doing mission work
13:06and he met his wife doing mission work.
13:08My wife's name is Laura. His wife's
13:10middle name is Laura. And the kicker
13:12with with Craig and I, we both wear the
13:14same kind of wedding band. Whoa. A
13:15silver elastic one.
13:17>> Wow.
13:18>> I do it because I do martial arts, so I
13:20don't like wearing a metal ring. And he
13:22has I think health issues, he wears more
13:24of an elastic one.
13:25>> Gotcha.
13:26>> But um you Sorry, I didn't mean to cut
13:28you off, but when you said that area,
13:29I'm like, "Oh, it reminds me of that."
13:30>> Yeah. Yeah. No, like they're they're
13:31more like Marriotta Kennesaw because
13:33you're getting closer to Atlanta with
13:35with the Catholic churches and stuff
13:36like that. But I
13:37>> Yeah. you know, you hear and and we'll
13:40get into it. You know, I got tons of
13:41questions, but you hear like, oh,
13:43praying to the saints and like and like,
13:46you know, at first at first thought,
13:48you're like,
13:50>> that definitely makes me hesitant. I'm
13:52like, whoa, what does that mean? Or, you
13:54know, oh, the Eucharist is literally
13:57>> the body and blood of Jesus.
13:59>> Yeah,
14:00>> that that that makes me a little
14:01hesitant, you know, in an honest way
14:03because I'm I've never heard that
14:05before. I was raised Southern Baptist,
14:07so I was raised, oh, this is just a
14:08symbol.
14:09>> Yeah.
14:09>> And then as I research, I'm like, I
14:11don't know if I agree with that anymore.
14:13I'm leaning, you know, and so there's
14:15all these things that I think they can
14:17sound polarizing when you're not raised
14:19Catholic.
14:20>> And to be honest though, the same is
14:21true of Christianity. Think about if
14:23you're going to evangelize a Muslim, for
14:25example, and you say, "Oh, you know,
14:27well, you know, a Muslim will say, God
14:29has a son." What do you mean God has a
14:30son? Are you saying God has a wife and
14:32they have little children? like that
14:34doesn't make any sense. And you'll say,
14:35"Well, no, no, you don't fully
14:37understand what we what we mean by
14:39that." Yeah. And so, and it's the same
14:41thing to understand that just as for the
14:43Christian faith in general, there's a
14:45lot of things people can misunderstand
14:46about it.
14:47>> The same is true for understanding how
14:49Christianity is lived out in the
14:51Catholic Church that Christ established.
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16:00episode. Yeah, I think I think one of
16:01the first things I I I kind of want to
16:03address is the what many people would
16:07know listening the Apocrypha, right? The
16:09the seven I'm going to mispronounce this
16:11dudero canananical books. Did I get it?
16:14>> Yes. So in the late middle ages there
16:17was a convert to Catholicism sixstus of
16:20Sienna and he came up with a
16:22classification system for the books of
16:24the Bible. The protocannon or the 66
16:27books Catholics and Protestants both
16:28recognize. Then he used the word
16:30apocrypha to refer to those books that
16:32claim to be Christian that Protestants
16:34and Catholics both reject like the book
16:36of Enoch.
16:37>> But between that would be duturo
16:39canonical. So protocannon first canon
16:42dutro canon would be this the second
16:43cannon. Catholics also recognize these
16:45are scripture but we recognize that we
16:50see that they're scripture. We see that
16:51Protestants don't recognize that. Um,
16:54modern Jews don't recognize that either,
16:56but first century Jews would have
16:58recognized that these books were
16:59scripture because later rabbis in the
17:02second century had to issue instructions
17:04telling uh Jewish believers uh not to
17:08consider these books sacred anymore. Uh
17:10and some people will say, you know,
17:11well, why don't you follow what those
17:13rabbis in the second century said? I'm
17:15like, well, because they also said,
17:16don't listen to the New Testament.
17:18>> So, it's like not going to really do
17:19what they what they say. I'm gonna go
17:21with the Old Testament that Jesus and
17:24the apostles had. And so those books uh
17:27Judith, Tobit, Baroo, first and second,
17:30Mcabes, Sierak, uh wisdom also includes
17:33portions of Daniel and Esther
17:35>> uh were in these Greek translations of
17:39the Old Testament and we also see
17:41illusions to them in the New Testament
17:44as well. So I would say that there's
17:46good evidence that this was the Bible of
17:48the apostles and their followers and the
17:49Old Testament that was used in the early
17:51church.
17:51>> So I guess that's been a been a
17:53difficult thing for me to understand
17:54because if you look at the Ethiopian
17:55Bible, right, I think it's got like 81.
17:58>> It does have it does have some more
17:59books in
18:00>> So So like you have you have like the
18:01Protestant 66,
18:03>> right?
18:04>> The the Catholic 73, Ethiopian 81,
18:08right?
18:08>> And there's all these disagreements on
18:10these
18:11>> like other books. It's like you you take
18:14the three and it's like okay we got 66
18:16all right and it's like we all agree
18:17there but then the Catholic has the the
18:19seven and then you have a few extra
18:21here. I mean what are your what are your
18:23thoughts like do you think that this is
18:25a matter of like that salvation is on
18:28the line based on what cannon that these
18:31denominations have or
18:33>> it would depend uh salvation is bound up
18:36in being united to Christ. Uh so to be
18:40united to Christ, we have to receive
18:42Christ uh into our hearts. We receive
18:45the Holy Spirit in baptism. Uh Paul
18:48makes that very clear in in Romans
18:50chapter 6. He talks about dying and
18:52rising with Christ connect you know that
18:54that being connected to baptism. And so
18:57in being united to Christ, what would
19:00separate us from Christ? Now, it's
19:02interesting in Romans 8, Paul has that
19:04wonderful um section where he says, uh,
19:06"What shall separate us from Christ?"
19:08You know, sorrows, uh, difficulties,
19:10powers, principalities, you, you know,
19:12that whole section. You'll notice
19:13there's one thing in there he doesn't
19:14mention. He doesn't say sin.
19:16>> He never says, "Shall sin separate us
19:18from Christ?"
19:19>> Because it can, it certainly can
19:21separate us. And Jesus makes that very
19:23clear in John 15. He says uh if you do
19:27not remain in me uh then you will be
19:31gathered up like the branches and
19:32burned. Not you know remaining would
19:34imply you were once united to Christ and
19:36then you're not connected to him
19:38anymore. Galatians 5:4 Paul talks about
19:40those who fell from grace because they
19:43tried to justify themselves through
19:44circumcision.
19:45>> To fall from grace means you were in a
19:47place of grace at one point. So the
19:50question that disobeying Christ in a
19:52grave matter could cause one to forsake
19:54their salvation. And that can include
19:57for example saying you know Jesus I know
19:59that you said uh you and your church say
20:02that this is revealed scripture but I
20:04don't believe that you know so or like
20:08if you said you know I know you said
20:09that there are angels watching over me.
20:11I don't believe in angels. I think
20:12that's something that people kind of
20:13made up you know. So there's that gets
20:16down to a bigger question of what do we
20:18have to believe as Christians to be
20:20saved. Yeah.
20:21>> One of the d I think for a lot of um a
20:24Protestant like yourself, one of the
20:26concerns is you know Catholics make it
20:27too complicated like I got to you're
20:29telling me I got to believe this, I got
20:30to believe that. I got to believe this.
20:31I got to believe that in order to be
20:33saved like did Jesus really want it to
20:35be that way? But the reverse side of the
20:37problem is saying if like if somebody
20:39says all just believe in Jesus and
20:41you'll be saved. But it's like okay well
20:43what if I'm a oneness Pentecostal. I
20:45believe in Jesus and I think God is one
20:47person. You know he's the father
20:49sometimes Jesus the other holy spirit. I
20:51believe in Jesus like oh but that's a
20:52trinitarian heresy.
20:53>> Y
20:53>> so it's like okay you got to believe in
20:55Jesus and the trinity.
20:56>> Okay. Do I have to believe in Adam and
20:58Eve and original sin?
20:59>> Do I have to believe that it's important
21:02to be baptized? So there's always going
21:04to be this like, okay, people say, hey,
21:06Catholics, you're making me believe too
21:08much. And I'm like, okay, but you're
21:11doing too little.
21:13>> What mechanism do we have to determine?
21:15So I would say, for example, like I
21:17would say to you, what if somebody said
21:19this? They said, I I believe in the
21:21Bible. I don't believe the book of
21:23Hebrews is scripture, though, because
21:24it's technically anonymous. I just treat
21:26it like it's a human writing. Yeah.
21:28>> Like would you say that person's like
21:30maybe not saved or they're just a weird
21:32Christian? I mean, I would I would be
21:34the one to make a case of being like,
21:35look through Christian history. Look at
21:37what has been accepted. And that's why I
21:39wrestle with the Apocrypha so much is
21:41because I go to something like the
21:42Museum of the Bible
21:43>> and you see all these old texts
21:45>> and it's in there
21:46>> and it's in there that because that's
21:48another problem. If if you're going to
21:50say, well, look, we need even if the
21:52Bible doesn't say these are the books
21:53that belong in the Bible, right? You you
21:55might end up saying, okay, maybe
21:57scholars, and this isn't just new. Even
21:59Origin said only God knows who wrote
22:01Hebrews. There's a very old view um of
22:04saying that it's technically an
22:05anonymous author. Well, then why should
22:07we believe that it's scripture? And
22:08you'll say, well, look, Christians
22:10throughout the ancient church believe
22:11that this was scripture. But then if you
22:14go to those same Christians, you'll see
22:15that they cite the book of Baroo uh as
22:18evidence for Christ's divinity or they
22:21cite the book of wisdom, a dutononical
22:23book because wisdom chapter 2, read
22:26wisdom
22:28chapter 2:es 12- 20
22:31>> and it's going to sound exactly like
22:33Jesus being crucified on the cross. It's
22:36to me that is the most explicit prophecy
22:39of Jesus in the Old Testament, even more
22:41than Isaiah 53.
22:43>> Interesting.
22:43>> Because in the Gospel of Matthew, it's
22:45interesting. The priests say, "He says
22:48that he's the son of God. Let's see if
22:50God will save him." But there's but in
22:53the protocononical Old Testament,
22:55there's no verse where someone says,
22:57"Oh, if they're the son of God, God will
22:58save them." But in wisdom 2, it is in
23:01there saying, "He claims to be the son
23:03of God. let us see if the if God will
23:05rescue him from this. And it's just like
23:07clearly maps on even Protestant scholars
23:10will say this is either a prophecy or
23:12Matthew was drawing on this when he was
23:14composing composing his his um account
23:18of Christ's crucifixion. So yeah, so
23:20it's interesting if you appeal to and
23:23this is where I get concerned about
23:24Protestantism. If you appeal to the
23:27consensus of the early church for things
23:29like the canon of the New Testament.
23:31Well, I believe in Hebrews because the
23:33the church the early church believed in
23:35it. So the early church the codec
23:37sinaticus if you went to the museum of
23:39the bible the first complete manuscript
23:41we have
23:42>> has those duderoonical books in there.
23:44Uh and I mean some are missing because
23:46you know some things well in some of the
23:47manuscripts are incomplete but in you
23:49know in others they're also missing the
23:50protocononical books as well. Yeah. But
23:53we see them clearly attested in these
23:55early authors. Uh and not just that
23:57they're cited because like Paul, you
23:59know, he'll cite Greek poets. Enoch gets
24:02cited in the New Testament. Not just
24:03that they're referenced, but they're
24:05referenced like the early church calls
24:07them sacred scripture or they use it for
24:10proof of prophecy, proof of doctrine. Uh
24:13they use it in a way they don't use
24:16non-religious works. It's interesting
24:17that you see like Enoch is really
24:19popular at the very beginning of church
24:20history and then there's a huge steep
24:22drop off. The Judoonical books, it's
24:24more of like a gradual
24:26>> acceptance and and increase.
24:28>> So what what is your what is the
24:29Catholic perspective for Protestants
24:31that don't that don't hold to the
24:34Apocrypha as the inspired word of God?
24:36>> You're missing out, man.
24:37>> The Protestant missing out.
24:39>> Hey, I respect them. They're great
24:40documents, but not the word of God. I
24:42mean, what what's that
24:44>> then? Well, ultimately it's going to be
24:45rooted in this. When we determine,
24:48you're saying, well, you know,
24:49Protestants have 66, Catholics have 73,
24:52East Ethiopian Orthodox have 81. We
24:56could get a a Jew in here who will say,
24:57well, what about 39? We all agree
25:00because you're saying, well, we all
25:01agree on 66. Can't we just be cool with
25:03that? But a Jew could say, well, we all
25:05agree on 39. Why can't we be okay with
25:08that? Like, okay, just because we have a
25:10common belief doesn't mean we should
25:11stop there.
25:12>> Yeah. It's going to go back to who has
25:15the authority to bind all believers to
25:18say these are the books of scripture and
25:21it is heresy. It is a sin against the
25:24faith to deny them. I would say the only
25:28body that has that authority is the
25:30church Christ established. and the
25:32church Christ established as a visible
25:33one connected to the successors of the
25:35apostles going all the way back through
25:37the church's history through the bishops
25:39one after another going back to the
25:41original 12. So, it's going to come back
25:43to that. If you say, "Well, I don't
25:45believe that." Is it because you've made
25:47a mistake in your reasoning? You don't
25:48think Catholic arguments are convincing?
25:50If it's because you say, "Yeah, I know
25:51that this is Christ Church, and they say
25:53it is, but I know better than Christ
25:55Church." That's not great for the state
25:57of your soul. But for people where it's
26:01similar to the question of will I go to
26:03a non-Christian, saying to them, will
26:06they go to hell if they don't believe in
26:07Jesus? Well, I guess I could I could ask
26:10you. I mean, let's say, yeah, you you
26:12talk to, well, there's different levels
26:15on this. Let's say somebody who never
26:17knew Jesus, like someone who was a
26:19Native American a thousand years ago,
26:21you know, and Mormonism is not true, you
26:23[laughter] know, the Native American a
26:24thousand years ago, they've never heard
26:26about Jesus, right? Do do you think
26:28they're definitely going to hell
26:30>> that they don't know about Jesus?
26:32>> Yeah, because they because they they
26:33couldn't. They've never met a
26:34missionary.
26:34>> Yeah. Because you have to have faith in
26:36Jesus. Right.
26:36>> Right. So the question is, are they
26:38definitely damned or is it possible they
26:40could still be saved?
26:41>> I mean, I I I don't know what they did
26:43in their last dying breath. I don't know
26:44if Jesus revealed himself to them. I
26:46don't I don't know the full scenario.
26:48But if you don't have sincere faith in
26:49Jesus, then you don't get eternity with
26:51him.
26:51>> So I So it's interesting then a Catholic
26:54could um could take a similar view, but
26:57I would say Catholics tend to take a
26:59view um that Protestants might call
27:02inclusivism. And I think there's many
27:03Protestants who would say that it
27:06someone who they don't know Jesus
27:10through no fault of their own. And I
27:13think you might you'd probably agree
27:15with that that if the if a person cuz
27:17you're saying that like it sounds like
27:20you're saying that everybody
27:22at some point has a knowledge of Jesus
27:26where they can be held accountable for
27:27that knowledge. Like
27:29>> well I think you know my perspective I
27:32mean I' I've first think of Romans 1
27:33right God's divine righteousness is
27:35displayed throughout all of creation so
27:36that humanity is without excuse. So
27:38whether we're talking about the Native
27:40American a thousand years ago or we're
27:42talking about the tribe of 12 people
27:44buried deep in the Amazon that have
27:46their own language revelation would say
27:49every nation tribe and tongue is
27:50represented. So that gives me some sort
27:52of hope of going, "Okay, well, I hope
27:54that how God's going to judge the earth
27:56is going to be righteous, justly, and
27:58perfect." Because that's his nature and
27:59his character.
28:00>> Yeah. You go back to Genesis when Abram
28:02is bargaining to try to get as many
28:03people out of Sodom and Gomorrah as he
28:05can. And I love the line. He's he
28:07finally gets it down to 10. And I love
28:08that God lets him whittle down knowing
28:11that it's still not going to be sure 10
28:13knowing it's not going to be enough. But
28:14but Abraham, he says to himself, uh,
28:16"Will not the judge of the whole earth
28:18do what is right?" I love that line in
28:20the story. We'll not judge and I I think
28:22we're
28:22>> have a common ground here that
28:25>> Catholics would say that uh people will
28:28be held accountable for the level of
28:30knowledge that they've been given about
28:32revelation. So if somebody knows the
28:33Catholic Church is the true faith and
28:35says, you know, I just don't want to be
28:36Catholic anymore. It's too hard. They're
28:38going to be judged differently than
28:39someone who is maybe presented a
28:41defective incomplete version of
28:44Catholicism. uh who wasn't given you
28:47know the best you know presentation of
28:49it to help them to really see oh this is
28:51something credible to believe in and I
28:52think many protestants would agree with
28:54that if they they would agree with that
28:56similarly of the question of what about
28:59people who never believed in Jesus
29:01through no fault of their own versus
29:03that they committed some kind of fault
29:04they loved sin more than God they're
29:06rationalizing this away I would just say
29:08the same thing about non-atholics
29:10there's a difference between people who
29:11are Catholic through no fault of their
29:13own and people who are not Catholic
29:15because they're like, "Yeah, maybe it
29:17could be true." Like, I could really see
29:19that, but like I disagree. I don't want
29:21to have to like live my life without
29:22using contraception. So, I'm just not
29:24going to look into that anymore.
29:26>> So, then is is the perspective, do you
29:28think that Protestants are going to hell
29:30because they're not Catholic?
29:32>> I like I said, I would say that is
29:35paralleled to the question, will
29:37non-Christians go to hell because they
29:39don't believe in Jesus? And the answer
29:41is it depends. Well, I I guess my
29:44question though is like where is the
29:46standard then, right? Because you made a
29:47point earlier about salvation, right?
29:49Where I would agree like the scriptures
29:51say even the demons believe. Yeah. So, I
29:53was I was just talking to a mentor of
29:55mine last night. Just cuz someone fills
29:57out a connect card at at church does not
30:00mean that they're going to heaven. I
30:01don't know if they have sincere faith.
30:04Because someone asked me a couple weeks
30:05ago, they said, "How many salvations
30:06have you seen?" I said, "What are you
30:07talking about?" They're like, "How many
30:09people have you seen saved?" And I was
30:10like, "I can't track a salvation. You
30:12know, I can't put like, oh, here's this
30:14person got saved on this date and this
30:16is what it looks like. Now, I I can say
30:18that personally about my own life in a
30:20confident manner because I know, okay,
30:22when I was 17, this moment happened and
30:24from that day forward, I've been chasing
30:26Jesus wholeheartedly, sincerely, with
30:27integrity, right? So, like I can testify
30:30about my own life and go, okay, I've
30:31been following Jesus.
30:33>> So, so where where's the standard of
30:35measure though then when it comes to the
30:37it depends,
30:38>> right? So what I would say is that when
30:41it comes to salvation, John 3:36 says uh
30:46whoever you believes will be saved, but
30:48it says also says those who whoever
30:51believes in the son will be saved, but
30:53whoever disobys the son, it says does
30:55not believe and whoever disobys in John
30:573:36 will not be saved. So it's not just
31:01about believing in Jesus. It is about
31:05receiving
31:07all of the faith that has been handed
31:09down to us from the apostles and being
31:11obedient to Jesus and his church. I
31:13think where sometimes we might talk past
31:15each other is that as a Catholic we see
31:18the church as kind of a as a sacrament
31:21of salvation. Uh it's not that the
31:23building saves us, but that the church
31:25provides us with those things that are
31:27necessary for our salvation. So the
31:29church tells us this is what God wants
31:31us to believe as Christians and to deny
31:34these things is heresy and it's
31:36incompatible with the the Christian
31:38faith. Like if you believe that God is
31:40an embodied man somewhere in the
31:42universe for example or you know there's
31:43a whole list of heresies that Jesus is
31:46not as equal in divinity with the
31:48father. Um these are the heresies that
31:51are incompatible with faith. The church
31:53says these are the actions that are
31:55incompatible with the faith. these are
31:57the sins. And because there's many
32:00people who would try to justify, you
32:02know, all kinds of sins today, say,
32:04well, does the Bible really condemn
32:05that? Or, well, the Bible doesn't say
32:07anything about a woman renting out her
32:09room to, sorry, renting out her womb for
32:13gestational surrogacy,
32:15>> which I would say is is human
32:16trafficking. But of course, that
32:18technology was invented uh 2,000 years
32:20after the biblical authors. We wouldn't
32:22expect a condemnation of it
32:24>> um in scripture. I've seen Protestants
32:27defend,
32:30I want to use my words, I'm just going
32:31to be blunt here, defending masturbation
32:33as long as you're not thinking lustful
32:35thoughts during it
32:36>> because the Bible only condemns lust. It
32:38doesn't say anything about
32:39self-gratification.
32:40>> See multiple Protestants,
32:42>> even very learning putting that out
32:44there. So, it's about not uh rejecting
32:47heresy,
32:48>> rejecting sinful behaviors, even ones
32:50that people justify. So as a Catholic,
32:53we would say that to be united to
32:54Christ, that if we are united to the
32:56church, we faithfully believe what the
32:59church teaches as handed on from the
33:01apostles. We obey its teachings on how
33:04to live a holy life, then we can be
33:08guided into salvation. And it's not
33:09about us trying to work our way to
33:11anything. We're very like the catechism
33:13is really clear in paragraph 2010 that
33:16nothing merits the initial moment of
33:17salvation. So like my wife for example,
33:20I'm a convert. My wife was baptized as a
33:22baby.
33:23>> And it's interesting the way you and I
33:24you say there is a moment you were
33:26saved. There's a moment to find it. I
33:29agree there is a first moment of
33:31salvation. I think where we can talk
33:33past each other is people say to you,
33:35"How many salvations have you seen?" And
33:38like if somebody asked me that, I could
33:40answer it in two different ways. I could
33:43say, "I have no idea. I've seen like
33:45hundreds of baptisms
33:47>> because that's where it begins.
33:49>> But as Catholics, we would say salvation
33:51is not is not just a moment. There is a
33:54first moment, but it's also a process.
33:57Because in 1 Corinthians 15, Paul says
34:00you're saved by the faith. Uh you are
34:03being saved uh if you do not forsake it.
34:06If you do not believe in vain,
34:07Philippians chapter 2, work out your
34:09salvation in fear and trembling. There
34:11are things we have to remain obedient.
34:14And then finally in Romans 13:11, Paul
34:17says that salvation, he says that
34:18salvation is nearer to us now than when
34:21we first believe that I would say, you
34:24know, I've seen hundreds of people get
34:26saved, but I've never seen anyone enter
34:28into heaven.
34:29>> And I would say that's final salvation.
34:31I've never seen that. Yeah. Because I'm
34:32on this side.
34:33>> Yeah.
34:33>> So it's like I've seen hundreds, I've
34:35seen zero,
34:36>> you know. So I would say then in seeing
34:38that salvation is a process that can
34:41help us bridge the divide a little bit
34:43to say that I agree. So my wife getting
34:45baptized as a baby I think that's the
34:47perfect example of salvation by grace
34:49alone because she did nothing to boast
34:54about her salvation. She did absolutely
34:57nothing. It's a perfect example of
34:59salvation by grace alone. Because if you
35:01think about it like even someone like
35:04yourself, you said you're what, 17? Uh I
35:06I was 17 when I became a believer, 22
35:08now.
35:09>> Okay.
35:09>> Yeah.
35:10>> So yeah. So I would say that I was 16
35:13when I became a believer. And I could
35:15have boasted that like, hey, I read the
35:19atheist arguments. I watched William
35:20Lane Craig debates. I I had doubts and I
35:23had questions and and I looked at the
35:24arguments and I figured out that Jesus
35:26rose from the dead. But that would be a
35:27sinful thing for me to do. But I
35:29realized this faith was a gift that God
35:30gave me. Now there are things I did to
35:32cooperate with it. I was really
35:34interested in the truth. I wanted to
35:36learn, but I didn't figure it out on my
35:37own. God, it was a gift,
35:39>> but it was a gift I still chose to
35:41receive by being open to God, by being
35:44naturally open, even though I could have
35:45never gotten there on my own.
35:47>> God had to give me a supernatural gift
35:49of faith.
35:50>> But so, I could have boasted like I did
35:52apologetics and I just found out Jesus
35:54is God and I believed. Look at all the
35:55great stuff I did. I would never do
35:57that. That's boasting. But it's amazing
35:59like people will get down on infant
36:01baptism. Those are works of men. We
36:02talking about my wife is when water's
36:04poured on as a baby. Can she boast about
36:06the moment she was saved? No. She had no
36:08control over it whatsoever. But
36:10salvation was was given to her because
36:12Jesus says, "Let the children come to
36:14me.
36:15>> Do not suffer the children come to me."
36:17And that God wants everyone to be saved.
36:19And he wants the first moment of our
36:21salvation to be identifi objectively
36:25identifiable.
36:26Because here's a problem I've seen
36:28sometimes Protestantism to level with
36:29you. You know, somebody says, you know,
36:32they're, let's say they're 12 years old,
36:34they go to a altar call, prayer night,
36:36give their lives to Christ, and they
36:38feel high school, they're, you know,
36:40fully convicted, right? College, get
36:43into some bad stuff. Uh, you know, I
36:45don't really I don't believe this stuff
36:47anymore. Fall away from the faith. Then
36:49maybe when they're late 20s, they're
36:51like, you know, I I was wrong. I want to
36:53come back. So, it's like, okay, do I
36:56have to get B? Do I have to get saved
36:57all over again or like was I just fallen
37:00away? Or because then people will say,
37:02"Okay, I was saved when I was 12 and
37:04this person is an atheist and they were
37:06an atheist and then they died a week ago
37:07in a car accident." And a lot of people
37:10will say, "Oh, well, they were never
37:10saved in the first place." And so that
37:13can create, I think, a lot of like
37:15confusion of like when salvation is just
37:18an internal witness, it's hard to make
37:20it the objective beginning. That's why
37:24salvation beginning with baptism was the
37:26universal teaching of the early church.
37:28Even Protestants that I debate will say,
37:31"Yeah, if there's one thing the early
37:32fathers agreed on, baptism is when
37:35salvation begins." Like, hands down.
37:37>> I do want to get into the baptism issue
37:39in a in a in a moment and like the
37:40sacraments and the infant baptism and
37:42things like that. I I think the hardest
37:43thing for me is understanding like,
37:46okay, you know, the the it depends on
37:49salvation based on how much knowledge
37:51someone has about the Catholic Church or
37:53things like that. I I I just don't
37:55understand because I I know you're
37:57saying it's more than an institute, but
37:58now I feel like if I if I am not, you
38:01know, putting if I don't become
38:03Catholic, right, you know, the Bible
38:04says to much is given, much more is
38:06required, right? And so like, okay, I'm
38:07learning about Catholicism. If I make a
38:09consensus like, hey, I respect you guys.
38:11I'm respectfully a Protestant. Then what
38:15am I am I damned for for hell because I
38:18decided to not convert to Catholicism?
38:21>> It would depend if the reason you didn't
38:24convert had to do with some kind of
38:27sinful avoidance of Catholicism versus
38:30just making like a cognitive error. And
38:32toi to continue my previous analogy,
38:35it's like the question, if someone
38:36doesn't believe Jesus is God, will they
38:39be damned? And I would say if it's for a
38:42sinful reason, even out of omission,
38:44saying, "I don't want to learn about
38:45Jesus. He's a lot of trouble, their soul
38:47could very well be in danger." If they
38:49have ignorance of Jesus being God, that
38:51they could not overcome themselves.
38:53They're born in a communist or Muslim
38:55country where they're not given the full
38:57knowledge of who Jesus is, then God will
38:59judge them based on what what he's
39:01revealed. And I believe the same thing
39:02is true for people who are not Catholic.
39:05That God will judge them. There's a
39:06difference between someone who is raised
39:08in a Protestant community and has very
39:09minimal knowledge of Christ's church but
39:13and one who is aware of this and is
39:16suspicious this could be the church
39:18Jesus established. I don't really want
39:20to learn more about that because that
39:21would involve a radical. I know pastors
39:23who said to me, I'm worried I'm going to
39:24have to quit my job. I'll lose my job if
39:27I become Catholic. And I and I say to
39:30them, well look what does it say in Mark
39:32chapter 10. Jesus says, "Those who
39:34follow me, who lose uh houses and
39:37livelihoods and family in this life,
39:38will they not regain 10 times as many in
39:41the kingdom?" You know, it's it's the
39:43perennial problem. The same with a
39:44Muslim who wants to become Christian, he
39:46could lose his life.
39:47>> Mhm.
39:47>> But what does it profit a man uh to gain
39:50the whole world but lose his soul,
39:52right?
39:52>> Sure. Yeah. I mean, I guess the the
39:54Catholic Church thing like and and
39:56correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you
39:57mentioned it earlier, not attending
39:58Catholic Church is a moral sin, right?
40:00Is that
40:01>> Yeah. Well, let's go back to this. So
40:03Jesus to be a saved person, right? If
40:06you're a real Christian, you I think you
40:09would at least agree to be a real
40:11Christian, you're going to be obedient
40:12to the commandments. Even if you don't
40:13think they do anything for your
40:14salvation, because you are saved, you're
40:17going to obey, thou shalt not murder,
40:18thou shalt not commit adultery.
40:20>> Sure. Yeah.
40:21>> So I would say you also obey, thou shalt
40:23keep the Sabbath holy. But for
40:25Christians, we don't follow the Saturday
40:27Sabbath. We worship on the Lord's day.
40:30that's become our Sabbath to worship. So
40:33the question it would flip around
40:35because any question you ask like well
40:36as a Catholic do you think it's sinful
40:39to not go to the celebrate mass to
40:41attend mass on Sundays? You know could
40:43you lose your salvation? I could turn
40:46that question around onto you and ask
40:49will a true Christian worship on Sundays
40:52or can you and I guess I'll ask you that
40:54question. Could you be a true Christian
40:55and say well you know I don't go to
40:56church on Sunday but I believe in Jesus.
40:58Well, I think this is where I kind of
40:59want to like begin to bridge the gap a
41:01little bit. I think I think
41:01Protestantism has done a poor job of
41:05>> a couple things with the local church. I
41:07think number one, it's we've I think
41:08Protestantism has turned like local
41:10church into smoke machines and like an
41:14entertainment thing.
41:14>> Evangelicals did that. The main lines
41:17redeem Zoomer, I know you're watching.
41:19They don't they don't [laughter] do
41:20that. So, so I do I do love this like
41:22aspect of tradition and there's this
41:25deep fear of the Lord when I when I go
41:27to Catholic church or when I visit my
41:29Coptic Orthodox brothers and sisters and
41:31things like that. I I just you know
41:34>> understanding well the Sabbath thing for
41:36example like we we Jesus says that the
41:38Sabbath was made for man and not man for
41:40the Sabbath, right? So I think whether
41:41someone takes their Friday night to
41:43Saturday night as a Sabbath or they do
41:44Sunday as a Sabbath, I personally don't
41:46think it's necessarily about the
41:48legalism. It's the Sunday kind of thing.
41:50>> So, do you Well, do you So, you don't
41:52think Christians a a true Christian has
41:54an obligation to worship with the body
41:57of Christ on Sunday?
41:58>> Well, I think we should. And here's And
41:59here's where like, and this will kind of
42:01lead into the baptism thing a little
42:02bit, like my perspective on baptis
42:04baptism. But when I became a believer at
42:0717, I met a hundred
42:09>> people who claimed to follow Christ.
42:11Yeah. Who were all posting about Jesus
42:13in some form or or fashion. And I'm
42:15almost positive all of them were
42:17Protestant believers. Okay. Now, over
42:19half of them aren't even Christian
42:20anymore.
42:21>> Yeah.
42:21>> And I think I'm not saying that this is
42:23the main reason, but I think one of many
42:25reasons is because they didn't
42:27prioritize the local church. And that
42:29there was some sort of it's just me and
42:31my relationship with Jesus, and that's
42:32what I need. And I think that there is a
42:35reason why God struck down Ananas and
42:37Safire was to keep the purity of the
42:38birth of the early church. I respect
42:40that. I read that scripture. It
42:42convicted me. It compelled me. It made
42:44me go, man, I really want to plant down.
42:46I want to serve. I want to submit to a
42:48local church. I want to be there. I want
42:49to fellowship with my brothers and
42:50sisters.
42:51>> Hebrews 13:17, obey your leaders and
42:54submit to them for they are called, they
42:58are overseers of your souls. They are
43:00going to be called to account for you.
43:02>> But to think that I don't walk into a
43:04building on a Sunday or like I miss a
43:08Sunday, I miss a mass or I miss like
43:10>> and here's the thing. If Protestantism
43:12is true, that makes perfect sense. If
43:16the point of church on Sunday is to
43:19gather together and do things that you
43:21could do at home, pray, read scripture,
43:24um offer prayer and praise to God, hear
43:27a sermon to open up the word. Because if
43:29you think about it, right, I could go
43:32online. You maybe my pastor isn't the
43:34greatest at sermons. I have an unlimited
43:36number of the most amazing sermons in
43:38the world right on my laptop.
43:40>> Go listen to Why not listen? Why that
43:41edifies me? Why not do that instead? I
43:43could go hang out with my friends and we
43:45could sit around our car and you know
43:47sing praise and worship music together.
43:49Uh I can I can do all these things even
43:51at home by myself with me and God. And
43:53is that not proper worship? But as a
43:56Catholic what I would say is there's one
43:57thing I I cannot do at home by myself. I
44:00cannot gather around the altar and it's
44:04an altar. Altars are where sacrifices
44:06take place. In 1 Corinthians chapter 10,
44:09Paul tells early Christians, he says,
44:11"Listen to me." because it's the
44:13question of can you eat meat sacrificed
44:15to idols and it's like look in the first
44:17century meat's a expensive delicacy and
44:20if you're starving that could stave off
44:22literal starvation it's like look they
44:24was sacrificed to demons we don't
44:26believe in those demons you know you can
44:28eat the stuff you know now that it's
44:29like it's been off you know you don't
44:32believe in that but he says be careful
44:33though about people who are weak in
44:35their consciences so he says in 1
44:36Corinthians 10 you cannot partake in the
44:39table of the Lord and the table of
44:42demons.
44:43>> And the word table there is a reference
44:47to altars. So he's literally saying you
44:49can't take part in the altar of demons
44:51and the altar of the Lord. And in
44:53Hebrews 13, the author of Hebrews says
44:55we have an altar that those who serve at
44:57the tent, the temple in Jerusalem. And I
44:59think Hebrews was written when the
45:00temple had not been destroyed yet. He's
45:02saying those who serve at the tent can't
45:04receive at our altar. And that would be
45:07the altar where we receive the eukarist,
45:09the body and blood of Christ. that what
45:10we receive on that altar is the one
45:14sacrifice that Christ presented to the
45:17father on Calvary. That single perfect
45:20sacrifice is now represented on the
45:23altar for us to be able to receive
45:25because Jesus is the lamb of God. Uh
45:27John the Baptist says, "Behold the lamb
45:29of God who takes away the sins of the
45:30world." Paul says in Corinthians,
45:32"Christ, our pascal lamb has been
45:34sacrificed." In the Old Testament, what
45:36what caused death to pass over the
45:39Israelites? It was taking a lamb without
45:41blemish, a male lamb without blemish,
45:44putting its blood over the doorposts,
45:46and then eat and then part of it was
45:48eating the lamb.
45:48>> Yeah.
45:49>> And so, as Catholics, we gather together
45:51every Sunday to take part in this
45:55communal offering that we are that we
45:58what do we offer to God? We we pray. We
46:00sing praises. We have scripture opened
46:02up to us. We hear the word of God. Old
46:04Testament, Psalm, New Testament, and the
46:05Gospel. But as part of our worship, we
46:09give to God at every Catholic Mass
46:11something, the one thing that God truly
46:13deserves. It's like we give him finite
46:15praise. We give him finite agilation
46:17because we're finite beings. But in the
46:20Eucharist, the bread and wine that
46:21becomes the body and blood, soul, and
46:23divinity of Jesus Christ, we offer to
46:24the father something of infinite value.
46:27We we we can't we say, "Lord, we we
46:29offer the very son to you who died for
46:31us on the cross." And the father wants
46:33us to receive the son so that Christ
46:35dwells within us because Jesus said
46:37unless you eat my flesh and drink my
46:38blood you have no life within me. We now
46:40receive that very pascal lamb and the
46:43new passover is complete for death to
46:45pass over us. And the the sinful part is
46:47if g if Jesus Christ our savior comes
46:51down Sunday at mass to be present on the
46:55altar for the community to be gathered
46:57and I say I don't really need to be
46:59there for that Jesus sin has been
47:02defined in the past as loving the
47:04creature more than the creator. If I say
47:07I don't feel like going to Sunday mass
47:09because I'd rather do something else and
47:11Jesus there on the altar. That's a
47:13textbook example of loving creature more
47:14than creator.
47:15>> Yeah. just I just feel like that there
47:17is I mean Jesus tells the woman at the
47:19well in John chapter 4 about worshiping
47:21in spirit and truth and again I love the
47:23local church. I'm not denying like this
47:25importance and purity and beauty of the
47:27local church but
47:29>> yeah he's saying it won't be restricted
47:30to one mountain but that's why the
47:31Catholic church is universal every every
47:34mass everywhere throughout the world we
47:36have the same readings the same eukarist
47:38one faith one baptism that it's it's a
47:41it's a faith that goes around the whole
47:43world united through all the bishops to
47:45the successor of St. Peter to maintain
47:47that universality, a universal catechism
47:50of teaching for people to receive the
47:52faith and know how to walk in the in the
47:54Christian life. So yeah, I see where
47:55you're
47:55>> but you know just to think that like I I
47:57Christ is only present in the in the
48:00Catholic Church in in that moment.
48:03>> So the second Vatican council said that
48:07the church of Christ subsists in the
48:10Catholic Church. And so what that means
48:13is that the visible identifiable
48:16elements of Christ's church, their
48:19historical continuity
48:21are in the bishops, the priests, those
48:24who are celebrating the sacraments in
48:26union with the bishops in union with
48:28with the pope, the successor of St.
48:30Peter. And in fact, when you go to the
48:31early church, when St. Augustine was
48:33arguing with the Manikian heretics,
48:35these Gnostic heretics. The way he would
48:38throw down on them is he would say, "You
48:40say you're the true church. We say we're
48:41the true church. Show us your bishop
48:43list." He said, "Give me a list of your
48:46bishops because we got a list that can
48:47go all the way back. Where's your list?
48:50This is the church that Christ
48:51established." And so that's what that
48:53was the test that he used um with them.
48:56But in saying subsist, we're not saying
48:58the Catholic Church, we're not saying
49:00that Christ Church is only the Catholic
49:02Church and it doesn't exist outside of
49:03it in any way, shape, or form. If
49:05someone who's validly baptized, you are
49:07a brother in Christ. I can recognize
49:09that anyone who has received a valid
49:11baptism and believes in the the triune
49:14God is a fellow brother and sister in
49:16Christ. And that they even have a kind
49:17of imperfect bond with Christ's
49:20universal church. Our desire as
49:22Catholics is just that every single
49:24person had that full communion with the
49:27one church that Jesus established to be
49:28able to receive Jesus in the Eucharist
49:30to receive the one baptism that when
49:33they are sick maybe dying to receive
49:36that anointing of the sick that in James
49:39chapter 5 it says is any of you sick I
49:41love this go to the presidoy elders the
49:45the word priest the English word priest
49:47comes from that Greek word presbiteroy
49:49go to the priest have him anoint you
49:51with oil. And it says in James 5, "And
49:54his sin," James 5:16, "and his sins will
49:56be forgiven."
49:58I mean, that's that's kind of
49:59interesting. We always think like, well,
50:00just believe in Jesus, your sins are
50:01forgiven. But we understand that God
50:03gives us um material means to
50:06communicate his immaterial grace,
50:08whether it's baptism, bread and wine of
50:10the Eucharist, the oil of anointing of
50:12the sick. And when I read the early
50:14church fathers, it's like they
50:16constantly are referring to this so much
50:17so that in the third century, you have
50:19St. Cyprien who says um one cannot have
50:22God as father without church as mother.
50:25I know that that can be radical to
50:27someone who's Protestant. But I think
50:29that can only sound radical if the
50:31church is just this kind of invisible
50:34bond that is nice in name but doesn't do
50:37anything concrete. But there is a church
50:39that can authoritatively say here's what
50:42we're called to believe. Here's what we
50:44here's what we must believe as
50:46Christians. Here's what we must do as
50:47Christians. and here are the sacraments.
50:49Here are the ways of receiving God's
50:50grace to nourish us so we can have
50:52eternal life and that this church is
50:54real, identifiable, has authority um and
50:58really exists in the world that to to
51:00guide believers. When when that re when
51:02you look at the church in a different
51:03way, I think it starts to click a little
51:04more.
51:05>> Well, I feel like when you say that
51:06thing of like that that there's this
51:07idea that the church is this invisible
51:09bond, I don't think all Protestants just
51:11believe that the church is this just
51:12invisible bond like you know like I am
51:15someone who deeply respects the local
51:17church. I respect it. I think it is
51:18concrete. I think it provides value and
51:21structure. It may not be the same
51:23structure that the Catholic Church has.
51:25You know, like one thing I like about
51:26daily mass, it's like if I go to mass
51:28for like a certain amount of time, we
51:29would have gone through the whole Bible.
51:31>> I think that's beautiful.
51:32>> Well, a lot of it, not necessarily the
51:33whole Bible, but a lot of it.
51:34>> You get what I mean? You get what I
51:35mean? Like you you you get that nice
51:37flow. And I think that's beautiful. And
51:39so that, you know, I it's not just, oh,
51:41I think that the the the church is just
51:43the invisible church and we're all
51:45united.
51:46>> Yeah. local church. It's you say the
51:47local church is important, but let me
51:49give you an example. Do you think
51:51someone should attend a local
51:54Presbyterian Church of America or the
51:57local Presbyterian Church of the United
51:59States of America, or are you not as
52:01aware of the difference?
52:02>> I'm not as aware of the difference.
52:04>> The PC USA, and once again, Redeem Z
52:07make sure I get this right. been correct
52:08on this before, but because you guys
52:10have just picked more clear acronyms, uh
52:13is the far more liberal denomination
52:15that has, you know, female pastors who
52:17are pushing for same-sex marriage,
52:18abortion. Uh and you can find this in
52:21among Lutheran like you have um the the
52:24Lutheran Missouri Senate is the smaller
52:27very conservative branch, the
52:28Evangelical Lutheran Church of America,
52:31the much larger denomination totally off
52:33the rails. In Anglicanism,
52:35I give you another example. Uh we had a
52:38guy who used to be he was a Catholic
52:40apologist guy named Michael Cororin. He
52:42wrote a book called Why Catholics Are
52:43Right. He was a Canadian broadcaster.
52:45And then he disagreed with the Catholic
52:48Church on its teachings on abortion and
52:50so-called same-sex marriage. So what's
52:52interesting is he did not stay a
52:54Catholic because it's like well the
52:56Catholic Church says you can't believe
52:58this stuff. So he became an Anglican and
53:00he joined an Anglican communion where
53:02they're totally fine with that. So it's
53:04like when we say yeah I believe in the
53:06local church but then it becomes but
53:09which of these things that claim to be a
53:10local church is the correct one versus
53:14somebody that oh yeah this is yeah we're
53:15part of the body of Christ and they're
53:17pushing heresies and errors then it
53:19becomes the st instead of the church
53:23judging me to make sure that I am in
53:25line with what God is teaching. I'm kind
53:27of judging the church and then picking
53:29the one that most aligns with what I
53:31think the Bible teaches. And that's not
53:32how the church was viewed historically.
53:34>> Well, sure. But like I, you know, we go
53:35to pride parades every year here in LA
53:37and there's there's a Catholic
53:38representation represented at these
53:40pride parades. So I I could flip it on
53:42you and say the same thing. There's
53:43going to be people
53:43>> But there's no but there aren't there
53:45aren't Catholic parishes where they are
53:48celebrating the sacrament of matrimony
53:50for two men or two women. Because if
53:53they start doing that, you have a check
53:55in the bishop of that dascese saying
53:58these sacraments are invalid. You're in
54:00schism. the German bishops were flirting
54:02with something like that. And even Pope
54:04Francis, the people of accused of being
54:05a liberal, was telling the German
54:07bishops, remember that people who uh
54:11depart from the church, they are like a
54:13branch that withers and dies. He's
54:15saying, I know you guys, there are going
54:17to be people, no doubt, there are
54:19Catholics that play Lucy Goosey. There
54:21are individual Catholics, even
54:22theologians that are off the
54:24reservation. But that's why we use a
54:26term in the church called the
54:27magisterium.
54:29>> It means teaching office. Y
54:31>> the teaching office, the teaching
54:32authority of the church doesn't lie in a
54:35podcaster like me or even some
54:38charismatic like a theologian or a
54:40priest here or there random Catholic
54:42celebrity. It lies in the bishops
54:44throughout the world who are united to
54:46the pope and what they teach on. So
54:48yeah, you're going to but we actually we
54:50have a universal standard to say yeah,
54:52you claim to be Catholic, but you're
54:54contradicting what Catholicism teaches.
54:56I would say Christianity doesn't have a
54:59similar standard to say you're
55:01contradicting what Christianity teaches
55:03because Protestant Christians disagree
55:06about that because the ultimate
55:09authority is not a teaching office. It
55:12is a document the Bible and then people
55:14decide what it means and what it doesn't
55:16mean.
55:16>> Well, sure. But I mean that debate has
55:18been going on for for how long? I mean
55:20that's why
55:21>> 500 years.
55:22>> Yeah. I mean even even more so. I mean,
55:24you go back to like that's that's why we
55:25have councils, right? Is to is to is to
55:28set things straight. So,
55:29>> and and who are who are at the councils?
55:31>> Yeah. Look,
55:32>> but who but who who were the ones in
55:33attendance? They're the bishops.
55:35>> Yes.
55:36>> Because they are the ones who have the
55:38magisterial authority to be the
55:40successors of the apostles. You're
55:42correct. And that's why uh you'll have
55:44Protestants who will say, "Yeah, of
55:46course, I believe in these early church
55:47councils, but why? uh other uh it's
55:51either it just already agrees with
55:52something you previously thought about
55:54the Bible or we see they have actual
55:57authority divine authority because of
56:00who is in attendance and who is making
56:01the declarations at them. In fact, St.
56:03Athanasius during the Aryan crisis he
56:06said that the word of the Lord came
56:08through the bishops who spoke and and uh
56:12decided doctrine at the council of Nika.
56:15But I think I think you know when we
56:17talk about the magisteriums and stuff
56:18like that like if I read through your
56:20magisterium then yes I'm going to
56:22interpret you know in a in a Catholic
56:24perspective certain doctrines of of
56:26Catholicism where it's like if I read
56:28from the Protestant magisterium of
56:29course I'm going to interpret it from a
56:31Protestant lens. And so I think like
56:32when we talk about like oh I go to the
56:34pride parade we do it every year. We do
56:35multiple pride parades every year. It's
56:38not just going to be someone who claims
56:39to be Catholic. That's going to be we're
56:40going to see like people who claim to go
56:43to Catholic church or to the Methodist
56:45church or the Lutheran church. There's
56:46going to be legitimate representation
56:48with booths passing out flyers. Love is
56:50love.
56:51>> But here's what you can do to them. The
56:52ones who claim to be Catholic. You can
56:53ask them here is what the Catholic
56:55Church officially teaches in paragraph
56:572357 of the catechism saying that
57:01same-sex acts are gravely immoral.
57:03They're close to life. They contradict
57:05scripture. This is what the Catholic
57:08Church teaches. It's right here. Do you
57:10agree with that? The problem is you will
57:13not find there's nothing that can say
57:15here is what the Methodist church
57:17teaches on this. It depends which
57:19Methodist church, which Anglican church,
57:21which non-denominational.
57:23>> That's the problem.
57:24>> Yeah. But I I don't think that just
57:26writes off all of the other
57:27denominations because then you can you
57:29could flip it on and say, you know,
57:30plenty of Protestants. I know you know
57:32plenty of Protestants. Probably a
57:34rolodex in your contacts. You can say
57:36these guys love Jesus. I you know I
57:39don't want to speak for you. They
57:40>> get there's a lot that No doubt there
57:43there's a lot that get it that get it
57:44right. For for example when I was my
57:46first Protestant debate was in 2017 I
57:49debated James White at the G3 conference
57:51in Atlanta. Uh so that was a conference
57:541,200 reformed Calvinists there. My
57:57slideshow breaks at the beginning and I
57:59said hey I'm sorry about this but you
58:00know God when God predestines things
58:02what are you going to do? gets a big
58:03laugh out of the the Calvinists that are
58:05there. And my friend Scott Kluendorf was
58:07also at the conference and I was so
58:09peeved I flew back early because Scott
58:11was one of the Protestants who helped
58:12mentor me in my pro-life apologetics and
58:15he was like, "Trent, if you'd stayed the
58:16next day, like I'd have you teach the
58:18pro-life section with me. I would have
58:20loved James just walks in and sees the
58:22Catholic doing the teaching at G3, but
58:24it's not abortion because we agree." No
58:25doubt. There there are Protestants who
58:27are absolutely solid on so many issues
58:30but they are also in error about other
58:34important issues and the most important
58:35one being which people who claim to be
58:39pastors have authority in Christ church
58:42to bind believers like if you look in
58:45the in the New Testament for example uh
58:47you don't find anyone becoming a pastor
58:49on his own authority like you could ask
58:51someone what gives you the right to be a
58:52pastor you can say well god called me to
58:55it' you know or like you know I I
58:57started this church or I always went to
58:58this seminary but the Bible never says
59:00that people just become pastors on their
59:01own authority it always says that those
59:04who are the leaders in the church choose
59:06them and lay hands upon them and in fact
59:08Paul tells Timothy don't lay hands upon
59:10people too quickly because of that
59:12because of this responsibility you have
59:14so it raises the question even my
59:16protest and friends we agree on
59:17homosexuality abortion a lot of these
59:19other although we also disagree I think
59:21on important moral issues I think in
59:22vitro fertilization leads to the deaths
59:25of children. It leads to children being
59:27deprived of their mother and father
59:28created in a laboratory what God never
59:30want. But you can't condemn it because
59:32the Bible's pretty silent on that. But
59:34the most important question being who
59:36has the authority to be a pastor in
59:38Christ Church and I would say those who
59:40have the authority are those who
59:42received it from those who were already
59:43pastors in Christ Church. They're the
59:45ones with that authority. Okay. Now,
59:47it's like the it's like the cosmological
59:49argument. Where's the chain end?
59:50>> Yeah. you know, I my authority to be a
59:52pastor comes from this person who was
59:54previously a pastor. Where did his
59:56authority come from? And then his
59:57authority and that authority. So I think
59:59even these other Protestants where we
1:00:00agree on important moral issues, we
1:00:02disagree on who are those that have this
1:00:05authority and is there someone who is a
1:00:08pastor who oversees the whole church to
1:00:10provide unity in the church to say, "Oh,
1:00:13this group of churches, they've fallen
1:00:14into error. they're they're no longer um
1:00:17united to the church because they've
1:00:19embraced heresy or or whatever it may
1:00:21be. Where is there a way that we can
1:00:22gather all of these authentic pastors
1:00:24together to say, "Hey,
1:00:26>> there's people who say, you know, um
1:00:29there's people who who say that Christ
1:00:31uh he didn't have a a human mind. You
1:00:34know, he's fully God, but like how could
1:00:36he have a human mind? You know, he's
1:00:37he's fully God. He has to have have a
1:00:39divine mind only. Does Christ have a
1:00:41human will or a divine will or both?"
1:00:44you know how do we you know we look to
1:00:45the scriptures they don't answer these
1:00:47technical theological questions well who
1:00:50who can we bring in who are the
1:00:52authentic pastors to say here is the
1:00:53answer that that's where I see the the
1:00:56importance of the apostolic succession
1:00:59and the importance of the sacrament of
1:01:00holy orders playing into that well
1:01:03whereas protestantism as much as church
1:01:05pastors are important ultimately solar
1:01:09scriptor makes that really difficult for
1:01:11their authority to have that binding
1:01:13force amidst doctrinal uncertainty.
1:01:16>> I mean, yeah, I I think I as a yes, the
1:01:19Protestant perspective is soul scriptor
1:01:20Torah. I like to look at the church
1:01:22fathers. I I enjoy it. I I think I I
1:01:25just logically thinking,
1:01:27>> I would want to know what the older guys
1:01:29before me think about like a lot of
1:01:31stuff. So, it has intrigued me. It's
1:01:33something I've been diving into for
1:01:35sure.
1:01:36>> Yeah. I I think that's very fascinating.
1:01:37But what if something has been aposto
1:01:39What if something has apostolically
1:01:41succeeded that was wrong? Could you give
1:01:43me an example?
1:01:43>> I don't know. I'm just giving a
1:01:44hypothetical here. You know what I mean?
1:01:46Like let's say let's say some sort of
1:01:48doctrinal let's say for example an idea
1:01:50of baptism and and maybe we can jump
1:01:53into that conversation and use that as a
1:01:55leading point there.
1:01:56>> First I would say that the question you
1:01:58raise could be understood as an
1:02:00impossible hypothetical. So it's saying
1:02:02you know well what if these people you
1:02:06know what if the bishops who claim to be
1:02:08the successors of the apostles uh teach
1:02:11something they infallibly because most
1:02:13of the teaching office of the church is
1:02:15proposing doctrine only in certain cases
1:02:17is it infallibly defined to say this
1:02:19cannot be an error other things is just
1:02:22teaching is proposed it must be believed
1:02:24but it can be revisited it can be
1:02:25amended as we get greater greater
1:02:28theological insight to it but you're
1:02:29like the impossible hypothetical is what
1:02:31if they infallibly defined something as
1:02:33true that turns out to be false. And I
1:02:35would say, well, if they did that,
1:02:36Catholicism would be false, but they
1:02:39didn't, so it isn't. Similar to someone
1:02:41who says, you believe in the Bible and
1:02:42it's without error, but what if the
1:02:44Bible had an error in it? You might say,
1:02:46well, then it wouldn't be true, but it
1:02:48doesn't have an error, so it is true.
1:02:50And I think that's a similar problem
1:02:52that's going to be raised where if you
1:02:54say, "Here is my ultimate authority that
1:02:56can teach infallibly." A critic can say,
1:02:59"Yeah, but what if it's wrong?" And then
1:03:01you say, "Okay, well, do I have reason
1:03:03to think it's wrong?" You raise
1:03:04objections. I don't find them to be
1:03:06compelling. But ultimately, like the
1:03:08reason you believe I bet the reason you
1:03:09believe the Bible is without error
1:03:11>> is not because you investigated all
1:03:152,000 alleged contradictions in it
1:03:17before you chose to believe. I don't
1:03:18know any Christians who's done that.
1:03:20>> Nobody does that. They just know, look,
1:03:22and this is what I felt.
1:03:23>> If Jesus, if there's a guy who walked
1:03:26out of his own tomb and he believes in
1:03:29this, then I'm going to believe in it.
1:03:30and I trust him. But here's the thing.
1:03:32There's no verse where Jesus says, "Hey,
1:03:35believe in this these writings." In
1:03:36fact, prior to his ascension into
1:03:38heaven, Jesus never told anybody to
1:03:39write anything down at all, which is
1:03:41really, he never said, "This is going to
1:03:43be our standard." So for me, the reason
1:03:44I believe in the Bible is because look,
1:03:46Jesus walked out of his own tomb. And he
1:03:48told these guys in Luke 10:16, "He who
1:03:50hears you hears me." He tells them in
1:03:52John 20:23, um, whose sins you forgive
1:03:55are forgiven, whose sins you retain or
1:03:56retain. Matthew 16, whatever you bind on
1:03:59earth is bound in heaven. You know, he
1:04:00gives the apostles authority. That's
1:04:03where the authority lies in the church.
1:04:05But they've died. So the authority has
1:04:07to go somewhere. And they never say in
1:04:09their writings, "Oh, it's only going to
1:04:10be in our writings." And the first
1:04:11Christians when they look backwards, oh,
1:04:13it's in their successors. It's in the
1:04:15bishops. So I believe Jesus rose from
1:04:18the dead. He established a church. It's
1:04:21always going to exist till he comes
1:04:22back. Here are its successors. And guess
1:04:24what? In the 4th century, the successors
1:04:27said there's dispute about what's what's
1:04:29scripture and what isn't. These are the
1:04:31books of the Bible. These are the ones
1:04:33that are that these are the books of
1:04:34scripture. Our councils have determined
1:04:36that that's infallibly taught later
1:04:38during the Protestant Reformation. So
1:04:40for me, it's like, well, I believe in I
1:04:43believe in the Bible because I believe
1:04:44in Jesus. Jesus founded a church and the
1:04:46church has said with its authority from
1:04:47Christ, these are the books of the Bible
1:04:49we're called to believe in. Because the
1:04:51Bible never says, "Everything I'm
1:04:52supposed to believe is found in it." The
1:04:53Bible doesn't say, "Here's the test to
1:04:55determine if something is scripture or
1:04:57not." Doesn't it doesn't have a lot
1:04:59because it's never meant to have
1:05:00everything. The word of God is given to
1:05:03us in the written form in scripture, but
1:05:04also the unwritten form lived out in in
1:05:07sacred tradition and taught through the
1:05:09the magisterium of the church.
1:05:10>> I just feel like a lot of people can can
1:05:12play the church father game or the
1:05:13church history game. Like Protestants do
1:05:15it, you know, a lot. They I I I try my
1:05:17best to keep track on if I watch a
1:05:20sincere awesome Catholic and Protestant
1:05:23debate. It's like here's this church
1:05:25father, he says this thing. Well, then
1:05:27here's this church father and he says
1:05:28this thing and this guy and then look at
1:05:30this moment in church history and then
1:05:31look at this moment in church history.
1:05:33And it's like I feel like we can play
1:05:34the game that game
1:05:37>> with anything across the board. And so
1:05:39it's like, you know, if we say, "Oh,
1:05:40well Jesus never told us to write
1:05:42anything down, so we can't look at those
1:05:44writings." But now we have the writings.
1:05:45So we look at those writings like
1:05:47>> no what I'm what I'm saying is that what
1:05:49God wants us to believe the deposit of
1:05:52faith. What is all of the theology God
1:05:54wants us to believe for our salvation?
1:05:57What what are all the things that God
1:05:58wanted us to believe that they are not
1:06:00all found in scripture? For example, I
1:06:03would say God wants us to believe that
1:06:05there has been no new public revelation
1:06:08since the death of the apostles. That
1:06:10there might be people who say the word
1:06:11of God spoke to me. He wants you to know
1:06:14this. You know, there's there's
1:06:15charismatic preachers who say that kind
1:06:17of stuff. You know, there's um Mormons
1:06:20saying, "Hey, we got golden plates and
1:06:22an angel came down and spoke to Joseph
1:06:23Smith." And you you'd probably say,
1:06:25"Well, no, God hasn't revealed anything
1:06:27since the time of the apostles." There
1:06:29maybe privately to you when you're
1:06:30praying, but not publicly for everybody.
1:06:33But the Bible never never says that that
1:06:36happened. It never says that revelation
1:06:38ended. It never said the office of
1:06:40apostles one day never going to exist in
1:06:42the church. So what for me I would say
1:06:46okay well I solos scriptor there's no
1:06:49reason to think it's true and reasons to
1:06:50believe that it's false because when
1:06:53revelation was given in the new
1:06:54testament soul scriptor could not be
1:06:56true because if it were true as soon as
1:06:58you get first Corinthians Paul tries to
1:07:00give you 2 Corinthians no way man we
1:07:02already got the writings you don't need
1:07:03anymore oh well okay oh there's more
1:07:05revelation Paul you're you're telling us
1:07:07stuff unwritten 2 Thessalonians 2:15
1:07:10stand firm hold to the traditions uh
1:07:12given to you orally, word by word of
1:07:14mouth or by epistle. So to say, okay,
1:07:17well, we're we're receiving all of that.
1:07:20Nothing in there that says that it's all
1:07:22going to be there. Well, where is the
1:07:24ultimate authority for Christians? Where
1:07:26where does that lie? And so, like I
1:07:27said, I'm going to look for there is
1:07:29that church God gave us. He gave us that
1:07:31church. It's here somewhere. It's
1:07:34identifiable. It's instructive. I can go
1:07:37and say, "What am I supposed to believe?
1:07:39Which books belong in the Bible? what
1:07:42are the actions that are incompatible
1:07:44with the Christian life and so I'll lose
1:07:46my salvation if I if I engage in them.
1:07:49So you're saying when it comes to the
1:07:51fathers, the catechism says they are
1:07:53witnesses to sacred tradition, not that
1:07:55they are it. So just as the church's
1:07:58authority helps us to determine what is
1:08:00the meaning of sacred scripture. Uh it
1:08:02helps us understand how tradition is is
1:08:05illustrated in the fathers, but we don't
1:08:07treat the fathers like they're just some
1:08:08other kind of Bible to decode. But I
1:08:11will say though, if you say that, you
1:08:13know, you like the fathers and you um
1:08:16you know, you'd fully agree with them.
1:08:19As I brought up earlier though, like
1:08:21they universally say, even Protestants
1:08:23admit this, that baptism is what
1:08:25regenerates and saves. But I don't think
1:08:27you agree with them.
1:08:28>> Well, when I say when I say that I
1:08:32well, I didn't say that I believe and
1:08:33agree with everything that they say. I
1:08:34just said that I'm interested in them. I
1:08:36respect them and I keep looking at them.
1:08:38So like with the baptism issue, that's
1:08:39something I've been wrestling with and
1:08:40maybe we can go on that. Let's do it. Um
1:08:42I mean you've been saying that Bapt and
1:08:44I don't want to I'll just ask a question
1:08:46so we clarify it. Do you believe that
1:08:47baptism is necessary for salvation?
1:08:49>> I would say baptism saves and it is the
1:08:53ordinary means of salvation. But God it
1:08:57we God has bound salvation to the
1:08:59sacraments but he is not bound by them.
1:09:02So, for example, the church teaches that
1:09:03if someone wants to become Catholic and
1:09:05they're going to walk across the street
1:09:06to be baptized and they get hit by a
1:09:08bus, the church has always recognized
1:09:10that's called baptism of desire.
1:09:12>> Yep.
1:09:12>> So, we've always read or someone wants
1:09:14to get baptized in ancient Rome and they
1:09:16find out they're Christians, they get
1:09:17fed to the lions. We would say, well,
1:09:19yeah, they're saved. They underwent
1:09:20baptism of blood.
1:09:21>> They g they were fully united to only by
1:09:24being fully united to Christ could they
1:09:26have had the spiritual grace to give a
1:09:27witness to him to death in that
1:09:29testimony. The church has always
1:09:30recognized baptism. There's other ways
1:09:32beyond baptism of water, baptism of
1:09:34blood, baptism of desire. But the
1:09:36ordinary means, the ordinary means is
1:09:39receiving water baptism. And that's
1:09:41something also many Protestants believe
1:09:42like Lutherans and Anglicans believe.
1:09:44>> So I got interested in the baptism
1:09:46conversation through Church of Christ.
1:09:48>> Now they're an interesting one. Yeah,
1:09:50>> they it is interesting. And so I'm I'm
1:09:51going to ping some questions and you're
1:09:53going to kind of hear that when I ask
1:09:54you.
1:09:54>> I have I've had a friend on my channel,
1:09:56uh, Marco Royo. We He's a Church of
1:09:59Christ minister and we've had we've had
1:10:01a few He has a channel called In between
1:10:03Sundays and so we've uh dialogued about
1:10:07some of these questions and we also do
1:10:09jiu-jitsu for fun. So we we
1:10:11theologically and literally fight each
1:10:12other.
1:10:13>> You guys can beat each other up and oh
1:10:15it's so fun. But yeah, because when you
1:10:17look at baptism there there are um
1:10:20there's four possible views. Look at it
1:10:22this way. Baptism spiritually
1:10:25regenerates or it doesn't spiritually
1:10:27regenerate. And
1:10:30>> define what you mean by spiritually
1:10:31regenerate.
1:10:31>> It makes you it it transforms you from
1:10:34being a child of Adam in original sin in
1:10:37need of salvation to being an adopted
1:10:40child of God for whom nothing would
1:10:42hinder your entrance into heaven. It's
1:10:44what gives you God's grace so that you
1:10:46can be united to him and he can truly be
1:10:48your adopted spiritual father. So is
1:10:50that where would you agree with the
1:10:51church of Christ and saying that's where
1:10:52someone receives the Holy Spirit is at
1:10:54baptism.
1:10:55>> So the two questions does baptism
1:10:57spiritually regenerate or not and should
1:11:00you baptize babies or not? Uh so there's
1:11:03like four actually four views. So you
1:11:05have some people who would say it
1:11:07regenerates and you should baptize
1:11:09babies. That' be Catholics, Lutherans,
1:11:11Anglicans, Eastern Orthodox. Um there's
1:11:13those who would say uh you it doesn't
1:11:17regenerate so you shouldn't baptize
1:11:19babies. There'd be a lot of Baptists,
1:11:20credtoists. It doesn't regenerate you.
1:11:23It's something that you do as a sign of
1:11:25faith to others. So doesn't regenerate,
1:11:27don't baptize babies. The third view
1:11:29would say baptism does not regenerate,
1:11:33but you should baptize babies because it
1:11:35makes them members of the of the
1:11:36covenant kingdom. It makes them members
1:11:38of the the church community, the new
1:11:40covenant. So that'd be like many
1:11:41Presbyterians hold that view. It doesn't
1:11:43regenerate, but it's sinful to not
1:11:45baptize babies.
1:11:46>> And then you have Church of Christ
1:11:48>> who says it does regenerate,
1:11:50>> but you shouldn't baptize babies. And
1:11:52we've had a fun we had a fun
1:11:53conversation because that's a view I
1:11:54find to
1:11:55>> if it does regenerate and the babies
1:11:57aren't baptized, what happens if they
1:11:58die as children? I would say that's
1:12:01>> very problematic.
1:12:02>> And do you believe in full immersion as
1:12:04a Catholic? I believe that it is a valid
1:12:07way to baptize but it is not the only
1:12:10way to baptize. Okay. So when you look
1:12:12in the first century there was a
1:12:14catechetical manual called the dedicay
1:12:16teachings of the 12. One of the earliest
1:12:19>> uh catechisms in the the earliest
1:12:20catechism in the church's history.
1:12:22Here's what to believe and and how to
1:12:24live out the faith. So it gives
1:12:25instructions on baptism because what's
1:12:27interesting is you'll have a lot of
1:12:28oneness Pentecostals say why baptize in
1:12:31g the name of Jesus. Why do I have to do
1:12:33father, son, holy spirit? They never use
1:12:34that in the book of Acts. You know, it's
1:12:36only in Matthew 28. They say, "But it's
1:12:38not in Acts of the Apostles." Yeah, but
1:12:40it doesn't give us everything we need to
1:12:42know. Here's how you are to baptize. So,
1:12:43the dedicay says, "Baptize in the name
1:12:45of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit
1:12:47thrice and also to use you can do fully
1:12:51immerse someone in running water. Uh, or
1:12:54if you don't have that, you can pour
1:12:55water onto them,
1:12:56>> which makes sense because baptism is a
1:12:58universal sacrament. God wants everybody
1:13:00to be baptized because it it it makes it
1:13:03takes you out of original sin and makes
1:13:04you an adopted child of God. So because
1:13:06of that, like how do you baptize
1:13:07somebody in a prison or in a desert
1:13:09>> or in the Arctic? You know, at the very
1:13:10least, if you have just a little bit of
1:13:12water to pour on them or even sprinkle,
1:13:13that's enough to affect the sacrament.
1:13:15But immersion, it's like the fullness of
1:13:17baptism. It has special signs to it.
1:13:19>> Well, I I was going to then ask about
1:13:21the desert fathers. So, I'm glad you
1:13:23kind of you kind of clarified that.
1:13:24>> It is. It is valid, but not the only
1:13:26thing. So, so when we talk about
1:13:28basically where I land right now in my
1:13:30in my baptism
1:13:32idea, theology as as discussing is
1:13:36>> um I believe that baptism is necessary
1:13:41but not in the sense that many people
1:13:43perceive it as necessary if that makes
1:13:45sense. So like I think that people think
1:13:47oh well if you're a Protestant Christian
1:13:49you're just telling I I've heard this
1:13:51before. People say, "Oh, well, you're a
1:13:52Protestant, so you you're telling people
1:13:53just faith alone, don't get baptized."
1:13:56And I'm like, "Well, hold on a second."
1:13:57Like, if I go to a college campus, or,
1:13:59you know, I'm an evangelist. I love
1:14:01preaching the gospel. When I go on the
1:14:02street, I'm not going to I'm going to go
1:14:04over there and preach the gospel to
1:14:05them, right? And I'm going to say, "Hey,
1:14:07Jesus Christ died for your sins,
1:14:08resurrected on the third day, defeating
1:14:10sin and death." Like, put your faith and
1:14:11trust in Jesus, right? But I'm not I'm
1:14:14not telling them not to go get baptized.
1:14:15I mean, if you're a sincere believer
1:14:17with two cents in your brain,
1:14:19>> Yeah.
1:14:19>> you're going to go get baptized. You
1:14:21know what I mean? So there's like that
1:14:22aspect of it. But when I say necessary,
1:14:24I I do not believe that if someone
1:14:29doesn't get baptized
1:14:31that they don't have eternal salvation
1:14:34with Christ. But at the same time, I
1:14:36don't think I I believe that if you're a
1:14:38believer,
1:14:38>> you treat it like going you treat it
1:14:39like going to church.
1:14:41>> Yeah. If you if you're a believer with
1:14:42two cents in your brain, you're going to
1:14:43go to church. If you're a believer with
1:14:44two cents in your brain, you're going to
1:14:45go get baptized. Because again and it
1:14:47goes in that category and we're kind of
1:14:48bouncing to back to this idea those who
1:14:51obey me.
1:14:52>> You are saying baptism and church
1:14:54attendance are in to use the Greek word
1:14:57aelamos profitable. Uh so it's 2 Timothy
1:15:013:16 it says that all scripture is
1:15:03inspired by God and it says it is
1:15:05aelamos. It is profitable useful for
1:15:09equip you know for for teaching reprove
1:15:11correction training and righteousness.
1:15:12It actually never says that scripture is
1:15:14is all you need. Um, so what you say
1:15:17there, because there's different views
1:15:19on baptism because one view could say,
1:15:20well, it it's not what saves you, but it
1:15:23is an ordinance that Christ commanded.
1:15:26Uh, so the alternative view is it's not
1:15:29something that saves you, but if you
1:15:31were to not follow this ordinance of
1:15:34Christ, that would show you're not a
1:15:36true Christian to begin with. But I
1:15:39don't think you're taking that far a
1:15:40view. your view seems to be more yeah
1:15:43God really wants us to do this but if
1:15:45you don't do it it doesn't say one way
1:15:46or another about your salvation let me
1:15:48try am I getting closer
1:15:50>> I guess I I think so because when I read
1:15:52script and and I I'll I'll ping some
1:15:54scripture right here right so the you
1:15:56know when we talk I always hear the the
1:15:59first Peter passage about baptism
1:16:01baptism saves
1:16:02>> yes
1:16:02>> but when I continue to read it not as a
1:16:05removal of dirt from the body um and you
1:16:08continue to read that passage and it
1:16:09gives a comm
1:16:09>> but as a pledge for a conscience.
1:16:11>> Yes. And and then it goes on with the
1:16:13ark and it gives the symbolism of the
1:16:15ark.
1:16:15>> But what a Catholic would say and many
1:16:17others including there I believe it was
1:16:19Oscar Coleman. He was a Lutheran
1:16:21theologian. He says that well what is
1:16:24the pledge of the clean conscience? It's
1:16:26baptism. Baptism itself that is the
1:16:29pledge. Not that it's a symbol. That
1:16:31what Peter is saying here he's saying
1:16:33look baptism doesn't save us in a
1:16:36magical way. It's not like just that the
1:16:39water is some kind of magical property
1:16:41that makes us clean in the same way that
1:16:44water takes dirt off of our skin. So
1:16:47like if you just receive baptism and you
1:16:49just think, "Oh, well this is this is
1:16:50just some kind of magic incantation and
1:16:52I can go to heaven." Well, no. That's
1:16:55not how baptism works. But what he's
1:16:57saying is baptism saves because it
1:17:00washes away original sin. What it does
1:17:04is that it takes away any original or
1:17:07actual sin that it has a metaphysical
1:17:10effect on our souls and and it saves us
1:17:13in that way. But I would say for for me
1:17:15when it comes to baptism,
1:17:17I would say that what h what often
1:17:19happens in these kind of debates between
1:17:20Christians, I kind of feel like it ends
1:17:23up being the the person who believes
1:17:26baptism saves, he puts up verses and the
1:17:29other person says, "Here's why I don't
1:17:31find those convincing." But I think at
1:17:33the very least you would say there are
1:17:35at least like five verses that sort of
1:17:37sound like baptism is what saves us. You
1:17:39say they at least sort of sound like
1:17:40that.
1:17:41>> Yeah. I mean you got the Mark 16:16.
1:17:43>> Whoever is not baptized will not be
1:17:44saved. Acts 2:38 repent and be baptized.
1:17:48>> Uh but to me I'm like okay. But I
1:17:50noticed this aosity of data, an absence
1:17:53of like five, you know, where are the
1:17:55verses that say baptism does not save or
1:17:59baptism is for showing people that
1:18:01you're Christian. To me, it seems like,
1:18:04well, there aren't really, it's kind of
1:18:06like, oh, if you can't prove your five
1:18:08baptism versus Catholic or Lutheran, my
1:18:11side wins. Like, well, wait, where
1:18:12where's the data that says baptism is
1:18:15just a sign to others we've already been
1:18:17saved? I I don't see the Bible saying
1:18:19that anywhere.
1:18:19>> Sure. I think I think that's when I
1:18:21would go on the exact word thing, right?
1:18:24Where the Muslim would say, "Hey, show
1:18:25me where Jesus said, I am God. Worship
1:18:27me." You know, we're we're both going to
1:18:28say,
1:18:28>> or even not the exact word, even if it
1:18:30communicates that idea.
1:18:31>> Well, I think I think in the So, so
1:18:33let's go to the Mark 16:16 for example.
1:18:35It says uh whoever does not believe and
1:18:37isn't baptized will not be saved, but
1:18:39whoever believes will be saved. Why
1:18:41didn't it recclarify that again in the
1:18:43back half? Why didn't it say whoever
1:18:45believes and is baptized will be saved?
1:18:47That's the question I ask.
1:18:48>> I think because there really isn't
1:18:50anyone who will not at least in the
1:18:53context that Mark is writing that there
1:18:56wasn't anyone who was going to seek
1:18:58baptism unless they believed because in
1:19:01seeking baptism in that context you're
1:19:03going to be thrown out of the synagogue.
1:19:05You could end up uh on a cross like
1:19:08Jesus did. Uh so in the context of where
1:19:11Mark is writing to early especially
1:19:14Jewish Christians but even gentile
1:19:16Christians in the Roman Empire that if
1:19:18you there are going to be people maybe
1:19:20who who believe but don't maybe don't
1:19:23see the importance of of baptism or
1:19:25maybe they don't they believe in Jesus
1:19:27but not fully what the apostles are
1:19:28teaching. So look you need to believe
1:19:31and be baptized. you need to do both of
1:19:32these things. But the people who don't
1:19:35get baptized, those are they're going to
1:19:37be people who who don't believe. The
1:19:39people who just who don't believe,
1:19:41they're they're not going to be saved.
1:19:42>> Well, I feel like if you already
1:19:43clarified it the first time, he he
1:19:45should clarify it again, right? Because
1:19:47if you say if it says repent and be
1:19:48baptized, the command is there. Go be
1:19:50baptized. So in Mark 16, it's like
1:19:52whoever does not believe and is not
1:19:54baptized will be condemned, but whoever
1:19:56believes will be saved. Well, if you
1:19:58clarified it on the contrary, shouldn't
1:20:00you clarify it again the first time? So
1:20:01that it's clear, right? Because we're
1:20:02talking about like the clarification you
1:20:04you you made the challenge just in
1:20:06general, you know, for the person that
1:20:08says disprove these five.
1:20:10>> No, what I just said was where is it
1:20:12that I'm looking for the scriptural data
1:20:14that tells us what is baptism for? So
1:20:17even here in this verse, all we could
1:20:20say, well, what is Mark 16? What does it
1:20:22say baptism is for? And the most we
1:20:25could get from it is it has something to
1:20:26do with believing in salvation. So we
1:20:29could say that at least it's it's it's
1:20:30connected to that in some way, but not
1:20:33that it says, well, it's only for
1:20:35showing belief or to say that, well, it
1:20:38has no bearing on one's salvation.
1:20:41Because at the very least, that verse
1:20:43would support a view that goes a step
1:20:45beyond your view. That would say baptism
1:20:47is an ordinance one must receive. And to
1:20:51disobey that ordinance would be so
1:20:54sinful it would contradict you being
1:20:55saved in the first place. So if someone
1:20:59let's like I'm talking Catholic
1:21:01perspective here. No baptism with desire
1:21:03no baptism of blood falls Jesus goes to
1:21:07Catholic church doesn't get baptized. Do
1:21:09they go to heaven or hell that's
1:21:11ultimately up to God. When you say does
1:21:13someone go to heaven or hell um the the
1:21:16Catholic Church does not have a reverse
1:21:18canonization process. So we can know
1:21:22that there are people who are holy men
1:21:25and women of God who are in heaven who
1:21:26are praying for us. Uh I think even
1:21:28Protestants would say like I can't
1:21:30imagine a Protestant who would doubt
1:21:32whether the blessed virgin Mary is in
1:21:34heaven or Peter or Paul or the other
1:21:37apostles say for Judas you know is is in
1:21:40heaven. And we we just believe also that
1:21:42because God can continue to do miracles
1:21:44in the church we see oh he can confirm
1:21:46this holy person who died God is doing
1:21:48miracles on their behalf. Uh and so when
1:21:51people ask ask that person, you know,
1:21:53pray for me, if God does a miracle on
1:21:55their behalf, well, that's a pretty big
1:21:57sign that they're, you know, they're in
1:21:59heaven praying for us. So we have a
1:22:00process determine who is in heaven, but
1:22:02who is in hell's no such thing. So you
1:22:05we can give all kinds of hypotheticals
1:22:07and I would say you give the example
1:22:09someone who goes to church, they attend
1:22:10the Catholic mass, maybe they're not
1:22:11fully convinced yet, they did not they
1:22:13did not receive baptism, will they be
1:22:15saved? And I think the honest answer I
1:22:17have to give you is not enough data to
1:22:20me meet a conclusion. The question of
1:22:22who goes to heaven or not, that's just a
1:22:25wider sphere of God answering that that
1:22:29unless I have all the data, I can't make
1:22:30that decision for a person. That's why
1:22:32Jesus says um do not judge by
1:22:34appearances alone. You know, God doesn't
1:22:37judge us on appearances. He also judges
1:22:38the heart. So when Jesus says not to
1:22:40judge, it's like when we say, "Oh, that
1:22:42person's they're going to hell." It's
1:22:44like we're not really we can say that
1:22:46that person's actions are incompatible
1:22:49with a Christian life,
1:22:51>> but to say, "Oh, they're going to hell."
1:22:52It's like, well, we don't know what's in
1:22:53their heart.
1:22:54>> So, we don't when we can't see all of
1:22:56that and God how God judges, you know,
1:22:59how they've responded to his grace in
1:23:01different ways. It's ultimately going to
1:23:03be up to God to determine, okay, is this
1:23:05person seeking after me? And is what's
1:23:08preventing them from coming to me some
1:23:10kind of ignorance they're not at fault
1:23:12for? [clears throat]
1:23:13or is what's preventing them from coming
1:23:15to me an ignorance they're sinfully
1:23:18dwelling in because they're scared of
1:23:19well what's it going to be like if I
1:23:21take that next step
1:23:22>> sure so
1:23:22>> so so in the the hypothetical I'd say
1:23:24there's not enough information it would
1:23:25have to fall into that
1:23:26>> well we would believe that that heaven
1:23:27is perfection right that that that the
1:23:30so the standard for heaven is perfection
1:23:32>> and if we say well hey baptism cleanses
1:23:36according to the Catholic perspect
1:23:38perspective cleanses people of original
1:23:40sin yeah right and sin keeps people from
1:23:42God,
1:23:43>> right?
1:23:43>> And the person doesn't get baptized,
1:23:45>> right?
1:23:46>> Then the Catholic perspect perspective
1:23:48would then conclude that that person
1:23:50wouldn't be in heaven
1:23:51>> if there was nothing else that cleansed
1:23:53the person of sin um either at the
1:23:56moment of death or or shortly after. And
1:23:59that of course could mean God could be
1:24:02capable of saving that person. And once
1:24:05again, I could turn the same thing
1:24:06around onto you. Not just the Native
1:24:08American example I gave earlier, but
1:24:10let's say a believing couple has a, you
1:24:12know, they have a uh well, I was gonna
1:24:16say one-year-old. I'm gonna Here's the
1:24:17example I'm going to give. Okay. What do
1:24:19you think is the youngest a person could
1:24:20give his life to Christ?
1:24:22>> I don't know. Do you think a Do you
1:24:24think a a 5-year-old could give his life
1:24:28to Christ and be saved?
1:24:30>> Maybe.
1:24:31>> Three-year-old?
1:24:32>> I don't know. I don't know. Maybe three.
1:24:34I think three is getting a little young.
1:24:35I don't know. I don't know the age. I I
1:24:37know that you that according to the
1:24:39Catholic perspective, there's like an
1:24:40age of of
1:24:42>> we Well, we set in canon law different
1:24:44ages to be held accountable. A lot of
1:24:46Protestants want this. They say, "Well,
1:24:47the age of accountability is seven." And
1:24:49I'm like, "That's not in the Bible.
1:24:50That's something you guys just made up,
1:24:52man. I know you want that, but that's
1:24:53not in the Bible." U there's there's a
1:24:56lot I'm I'm going to do an episode soon
1:24:57called things that Protestants literally
1:24:59made up that like I'm like, "Oh, well
1:25:01that's actually it's a common even many
1:25:03Protestant scholars will say, "Oh, well
1:25:05that's not actually in there." So, the
1:25:07reason I I say that is that there's
1:25:09going to be among very young children,
1:25:10like even like a three-year-old, like I
1:25:12I discipline my three-year-old. I'm not
1:25:14severe about it, but he can do wrong.
1:25:16He's not like a six-month-old.
1:25:18>> Yeah.
1:25:18>> But if you can do wrong, that's sin.
1:25:20Now, it's not major sin. So, you can
1:25:22have someone who's really young who
1:25:24could do wrong, but they're not old
1:25:26enough to believe in Jesus. So, it's
1:25:29like if they've sinned, even minorly,
1:25:31all it takes is one sin. You got a
1:25:33two-year-old, a one, you know, a
1:25:34two-year-old, three-year-old who who can
1:25:35do something. You could say, "Hey, no,
1:25:37don't do that." Like, you could say,
1:25:38"You you did a bad thing. That's wrong."
1:25:40They can sin, even minor, one minor
1:25:42minor sin, but they're not old enough to
1:25:44believe in Jesus. Is that little
1:25:462-year-old going to go to hell? But is
1:25:48that 2-year-old also old enough to
1:25:49believe in Santa? You know, like we can
1:25:51teach our 2-year-olds and
1:25:52three-year-olds, "Oh, Santa's real. On
1:25:54Christmas Eve, he's going to come down,
1:25:55eat a bite of the cookie, drink a glass
1:25:57of milk, leave some presents under the
1:25:58tree." And you tell a a two-year-old
1:26:02that that knowledge. Christmas comes, he
1:26:04sees the gifts underneath the tree, the
1:26:05bite taken out of the cookie, and the
1:26:07milk gone, and they hold on to that
1:26:08church.
1:26:09>> But but would your church baptize a
1:26:112-year-old? That the parents said,
1:26:12"Yeah, he he's saved. He believes in
1:26:14Jesus."
1:26:15>> Oh, well, I thought you meant the in
1:26:17infant baptism thing, like, "No, my
1:26:18church doesn't infant baptize."
1:26:19>> But that's but that's the thing because
1:26:21what we're saying is if someone can be
1:26:23saved, then they can choose to be
1:26:25baptized, right?
1:26:26>> Yeah. So then logically if you're saying
1:26:28that a 2-year-old could be saved by
1:26:31believing in Jesus, they could be
1:26:33baptized.
1:26:34>> Yeah. I I you Yes. I don't necessarily
1:26:36have a problem with that. I I just I get
1:26:39and this is just me being honest and
1:26:41trying to verbally process. Like I don't
1:26:42have a problem with that. If someone has
1:26:44sincere faith, I think that there's
1:26:46young people
1:26:47>> that have more sincere faith. Well, the
1:26:49reason I gave that example is sometimes
1:26:50I'll say, "What about a six-month-old, a
1:26:52newborn baby and then they die and they
1:26:54never had faith in Jesus?" Like, is that
1:26:57baby going to go to heaven? Some
1:26:59Protestants will say, "Well, they never
1:27:00sinned." But I would say, "Well, what
1:27:02does that matter? They don't they don't
1:27:03have anything human to earn salvation."
1:27:05So, yeah, like what what would be your
1:27:07like babies who die, they they don't
1:27:09have faith in Jesus yet. And you just
1:27:11said earlier, if you don't have faith in
1:27:13Jesus, you can't be saved. Like, what
1:27:14happens to them?
1:27:15>> Yeah. I mean, that's where like, you
1:27:16know, where you guys would lean on like,
1:27:19you know, catechisms and stuff like that
1:27:21for maybe like certain intricacy things
1:27:23or or councils. I would say, well, if
1:27:25someone can't make a conscious decision
1:27:27like a six-month old baby, then we're
1:27:30trusting, right, that God's going to
1:27:31have grace on that child.
1:27:33>> And I would give the same answer for
1:27:34somebody who uh through no fault of
1:27:37their own doesn't choose baptism or
1:27:39doesn't choose the means for salvation.
1:27:41I think we have some common ground here.
1:27:43What you're saying about that
1:27:44six-month-old is look, yeah, he doesn't
1:27:46believe in Jesus, but not because he
1:27:48sinned or not because he did anything.
1:27:50He was just literally unable to believe
1:27:52in Jesus. So God is going to judge him,
1:27:55be merciful to him based on what he did
1:27:57or didn't receive. I would say that also
1:27:59applies to people who never heard the
1:28:01gospel or heard deficient versions of
1:28:03it. Once you open the door in that
1:28:05example, then it can say, "Oh, okay. So
1:28:08if there's other things that we need to
1:28:10be saved and we don't have them, the
1:28:12question is, is it through no fault of
1:28:14one's own or because of sinful doubt or
1:28:17sinful ignorance or sinful rebellion or
1:28:19rejection? That's where that's where
1:28:20it'll come up. So the question of the
1:28:22guy who goes to Catholic church is
1:28:23really interested in it, hasn't gotten
1:28:25baptized yet. Well, is it because he was
1:28:27really open and eventually he would
1:28:29have, or because he likes the lifestyle,
1:28:31but he he's worried about it being true,
1:28:34so he really can't give himself to it?
1:28:36That'd be a different story.
1:28:37>> Yeah. I I just think that well the faith
1:28:39alone aspect of of Protestantism I I
1:28:43think it gets a bad rap sometimes
1:28:44because I think people are like oh we're
1:28:46excluding
1:28:48the baptism the eukarist all these
1:28:51things it's like no not necessarily but
1:28:53for me to think that my salvation
1:28:58at least where I'm lying with the
1:28:59baptism thing there is this spiritual
1:29:01aspect to it that I'm still wrestling
1:29:02with it where you know Romans would say
1:29:05that we're united with Christ I'm like
1:29:06what the heck does Does that mean? When
1:29:08I read that, I'm like, "What does that
1:29:09even mean? What do you mean I'm united
1:29:10with Christ when I'm baptized?" I'm
1:29:12still trying to figure out.
1:29:13>> We The water kills the old self. We die
1:29:17just as Christ died and rose again. The
1:29:20waters of baptism kill the old sinful
1:29:22man. When I was 17, like it killed the
1:29:24old Trent. And behold, as as Paul says
1:29:28in Corinthians, everyone who is in
1:29:29Christ is a new creation. That from we
1:29:32emerge from baptism. It's a kind of mini
1:29:34resurrection. So was your sin not washed
1:29:37from the blood of Jesus or from from the
1:29:38baptism?
1:29:40>> It was the baptism that Christ's blood
1:29:42on the cross merited enough. It merited
1:29:46the grace for my salvation. Not so 1
1:29:50John 2:2 says that we believe that
1:29:52Christ is propitiation for our sins.
1:29:55He's expeation. He covers our sins. Not
1:29:58and it says in there not just our sins
1:30:01but the sins of the whole world. and
1:30:04John and Calvinists will disagree with
1:30:06this. They're wrong. But when John and
1:30:09and Protestant non-Calvinists will agree
1:30:11with me when John uses the Greek word
1:30:13cosmos because Calvinists will say,
1:30:16well, when it says that it's Christ's
1:30:19experation for not just our sins, but
1:30:21sins of the whole world. He's saying of
1:30:23all the Christians throughout the world.
1:30:25No, that's not what he means. What he
1:30:26mean cosmos just means the whole world.
1:30:28Like John will say,
1:30:29>> yeah, you get the limited atonement.
1:30:31>> Yeah. Well, John will say that the, you
1:30:33know, the devil is over the whole
1:30:34cosmos, you know, is it just the
1:30:36Christians or is it everybody? Yeah.
1:30:38>> Um, so no, it's it's not just that
1:30:40Christ's blood he shed on the cross
1:30:43>> merited sal because it is so pleasing to
1:30:45the father that our sins are an infinite
1:30:49act of dishonor to God because of his
1:30:51majesty. They're they're they're worthy
1:30:54of infinite punishment. Nothing nothing
1:30:55we can do can outweigh them. But what if
1:30:58someone his life was infinitely
1:31:00valuable? What if someone said, "I will
1:31:03choose to offer myself as a sacrifice of
1:31:06love and praise to God." That my death
1:31:09is so good because I'm so infinitely
1:31:11valuable. It outweighs that all of these
1:31:13sins that we commit, there's only a
1:31:15finite number of them. So Christ, what
1:31:18he merited on the cross was salvation,
1:31:19not just for this, you, me, and other
1:31:21Christian believers, but for every
1:31:22single person in the world. Because God
1:31:24wants every single person to go to
1:31:26heaven. God loves every single person.
1:31:28And and that's what I love. Uh because
1:31:30Yeah. It sounds like you don't hold the
1:31:32Calvinism,
1:31:32>> right? Yeah. I'm
1:31:33>> Because here's why. Because you you
1:31:35because as a street evangelist, you can
1:31:37go up to anybody and you can say, "You
1:31:38know what? I can tell you I know is
1:31:40true. God loves you."
1:31:41>> Yep. That's
1:31:42>> He wants you to go to heaven.
1:31:43>> That was my issue with the the Calvinist
1:31:44perspective because I'm like, "Okay, if
1:31:45God is predestined before the beginning
1:31:47of time, group A is going to heaven.
1:31:48Group B is going to hell. Doesn't matter
1:31:50how many times I preach the gospel to X
1:31:52person on the street. So what's the need
1:31:54for me?" Yeah. What's the need for a
1:31:56pastor? What's that? So that like just
1:31:58mess and I don't, you know, I don't want
1:31:59to go down that whole route, but
1:32:00>> but we're getting Yeah. So I'm pulling
1:32:01it all together here because this is
1:32:03important to build a foundation that you
1:32:04and I agree. It's like no, God loves
1:32:06you. He wants you. And I can say that to
1:32:08anybody we walk down the street here in
1:32:09LA. God wants you to go to heaven. He
1:32:11died for you on the cross. He died for
1:32:15you. He died for everyone. He died for
1:32:18me. He died for you. Died died for but
1:32:19you know the homeless guy we'll go we'll
1:32:21go meet in Santa Monica or whatever. Um,
1:32:23he died for you. But here's the thing.
1:32:26Because God died for everyone on the
1:32:27cross, it does that mean every single
1:32:30person is going to go to heaven?
1:32:32>> No.
1:32:33>> No. So, there has to be a difference
1:32:35there. And the difference here is not
1:32:37that we work, but God in dying on the
1:32:40cross, the blood of Jesus is, we call
1:32:43it, it's super abundant. It's not just
1:32:46sufficient. There's more than enough.
1:32:48The only thing that prevents the blood
1:32:50of Christ from sanctifying us would be
1:32:52us saying, "I don't want that." And but
1:32:55how do we receive Christ's blood? We
1:32:57don't literally have his blood wash over
1:32:58us. Well, we receive it in the water of
1:33:01baptism. That that is where we receive
1:33:03that where the effects of Christ's
1:33:05sacrifice on the cross. His blood that
1:33:07was shed for us through the waters of
1:33:09baptism washes over us and cleanses sin.
1:33:12And so if we look at that way, like you
1:33:14go to Hebrews chapter 10, for example,
1:33:16really interesting. Hebrews 10:26-29,
1:33:19it says that if we continue to sin,
1:33:22there no longer remains a sacrifice for
1:33:24sins, but a fearful prospect of
1:33:26judgment. That the sacrifice, this is a
1:33:30perfect sacrifice. It's capable of
1:33:31saving everyone.
1:33:33There is nothing you and I can do to get
1:33:35to heaven on our own, but you and I can
1:33:38get to hell on our own very easily. Mhm.
1:33:41>> And that is true whether we reject God's
1:33:43offer of salvation when it's first like
1:33:45when you evangelize someone and you give
1:33:47them that first offer to believe in
1:33:48Jesus, they could say no.
1:33:49>> Yep.
1:33:50>> Or they could accept. But as a Catholic,
1:33:51I would say they could accept it and
1:33:53then they could walk away later.
1:33:54>> Yeah.
1:33:55>> It's possible. And they and not to prove
1:33:57they were never saved in the first
1:33:58place, but that uh because some people
1:34:00say, "Well, you can't lose a gift that
1:34:01you never earned." Tell that to Adam and
1:34:04Eve.
1:34:05>> They never ear they were created in a
1:34:08perfect state. They they did nothing to
1:34:09earn it. It was a perfect gift given to
1:34:11them
1:34:12>> and they junked it.
1:34:13>> Yeah.
1:34:14>> And someone who receives the gift of
1:34:16faith in Christ and receives Christ, the
1:34:18Holy Spirit in baptism, they tragically
1:34:21can still junk it. However, baptism,
1:34:23what it does, though, is it leaves an
1:34:24indelible mark on the soul. So, as a
1:34:26Catholic, I could say that in hell,
1:34:28there's going to be two types of people.
1:34:30There will be people who do not have
1:34:31that mark. They never receive the Holy
1:34:33Spirit at all. And there will be people
1:34:34who received the Holy Spirit. It changed
1:34:36them, but then they rejected God later.
1:34:38>> But in receiving this indelible mark on
1:34:40the soul, you are still united to the
1:34:43body of Christ. And so you can be
1:34:45reconciled to God. You're able to come
1:34:47to the church and confess your sins.
1:34:50>> Yeah.
1:34:50>> Uh to be able to receive absolution. And
1:34:52some Protestants like, why do you have
1:34:54to go to a man to confess your sins?
1:34:55Well, the Bible never says to confess
1:34:57your sins to Jesus. Never says that once
1:34:59in the New Testament. that that's when
1:35:01it talks about confessing sins in the
1:35:03New Testament, the context is always to
1:35:05other people.
1:35:06>> Yeah.
1:35:07>> In James 5, it says confess to one
1:35:08another. In 1 John 1:9, it's the context
1:35:12verse 8 and 10, you know, because 1 John
1:35:141:9 says, "If we confess our sins, he is
1:35:16faithful and he will forgive us." But in
1:35:18verses 8 and 10, it says, "If we confess
1:35:20our faith to others, if we confess what
1:35:24we believe to," it's a context of if we
1:35:26are public and don't hide that we're
1:35:28Christians, God will be faithful. So
1:35:30it's talking about public confession to
1:35:32other people.
1:35:33>> Yeah.
1:35:33>> So so in seeing that that baptism unites
1:35:36us to Christ even if we throw it away as
1:35:39a Catholic I would say that God is not
1:35:41some kind of heartless judge he is like
1:35:43the father and of the prodigal son. That
1:35:46if we are through baptism united to
1:35:48Christ adopted children of God even if
1:35:51we sin and we reject God and we go away
1:35:54God will always be at um he will always
1:35:57be standing at the gates of heaven.
1:35:58He'll always be looking out. I love that
1:36:00in the prodigal son. He saw the sun
1:36:02coming from a far distance.
1:36:03>> Yeah.
1:36:04>> I always interpret that to mean every
1:36:06day he went out as far as he could on
1:36:07the property to be watching for him
1:36:10>> to be waiting for him to come back.
1:36:11>> Yeah.
1:36:11>> And here he comes. He says, "My son was
1:36:13once dead and now he's alive again." And
1:36:17so that's why he can say that you can be
1:36:19saved. You can receive salvation, but
1:36:20then you can be spiritually dead. You
1:36:22can stupidly throw it away.
1:36:23>> Yeah.
1:36:24>> Because you're an idiot and sin makes
1:36:25you stupid.
1:36:26>> Yeah. Um but God loves us and always
1:36:30provides a means to draw us back to him.
1:36:33>> Yeah. With the with the with the baptism
1:36:35thing and the and the and the faith.
1:36:37Yeah.
1:36:37>> Uh the the faith portion of it like I
1:36:39would say that someone receives the Holy
1:36:41Spirit not at baptism but at moment of
1:36:43faith, right? And so I I see in Hebrews
1:36:46and and again in Ezekiel, right? I I and
1:36:48the reason I point to Ezekiel is because
1:36:50some people point to John 3 when it says
1:36:52you must be born of water in the spirit
1:36:53as like oh that's a baptism thing.
1:36:55>> Sure. And I could agree with you that a
1:36:56person receives the gift of faith,
1:36:59>> but the only place where the term faith
1:37:02alone is mentioned in scripture
1:37:04>> is James chapter 2.
1:37:06>> Well, I'm well, I'm talking about Holy
1:37:08Spirit, like where someone gets the Holy
1:37:10Spirit, right? Ephesians would say that,
1:37:12>> you know, we have the se that's a
1:37:13classic verse, right? And I'm not just
1:37:15appealing to that as like only source.
1:37:17That's why I was looking at, hey,
1:37:18Ezekiel, we have Ezekiel here. I think
1:37:19it's Ezekiel 36 referencing back to John
1:37:223. Well, Ezekiel also talks about the
1:37:24sprinkling of water to make us clean.
1:37:26Yeah. But I would say that what you are
1:37:28talking about Holy Spirit, I would agree
1:37:30with you in that Catholics when we talk
1:37:31about grace, right? Grace is God's
1:37:33unmmerited favor. So grace is this
1:37:35gratuitous gift of God so we can share
1:37:37in his divine life. And Catholics, we
1:37:39talk about two different kinds of grace.
1:37:42Actual grace and sanctifying grace. So
1:37:44sanctifying grace is the undeserved
1:37:47merit of God, the life of God that
1:37:49cleanses our souls of sin and fills it
1:37:52with the love of God so that we can be
1:37:53united to Christ in him. Actual grace
1:37:57doesn't change our souls in that way,
1:37:59but it moves our will and disposition to
1:38:02want that grace. So it's like when
1:38:04someone says, "Catholic church is really
1:38:06interesting. I yeah, I don't know. I
1:38:08want to look into baptism." That's not
1:38:10them purely doing it. That's actual
1:38:12grace at work. they're cooperating. But
1:38:14but you can't seek after God on your
1:38:16own. We're too stuck in sin. But God but
1:38:18God or if someone uh is baptized and
1:38:21they commit a mortal sin, a serious sin,
1:38:23and they're away from God, and they
1:38:25think, "I got to go back to church and I
1:38:26got to confess this. I got to God, I'm
1:38:28sorry. I got to I got to repent of
1:38:30this." That's the actual grace moving
1:38:31their heart to be reconciled to God for
1:38:33them to receive sanctifying grace and
1:38:36absolution like that. Well, that the
1:38:38reason I point to Ezekiel 36 in the
1:38:39Hebrews is it would say that the
1:38:42evidence of the Holy Spirit in someone's
1:38:44life is if they walk out the statutes of
1:38:46the Lord,
1:38:47>> right? And there was a I I I claim to
1:38:50have put faith and trust in Jesus
1:38:51December 25th of 2020.
1:38:53>> I did not get baptized until
1:38:55midFebruary.
1:38:57>> But that two-month period, Sure.
1:38:59>> in between those times, I'm giving
1:39:01certain habits up. The Lord's
1:39:03sanctifying me.
1:39:04>> Yes. And would I say the Holy Spirit's
1:39:07not leading me to do that? But the the
1:39:09scriptures would say that the
1:39:10chastisement of the Lord and me walking
1:39:12out the statutes would be the evidence
1:39:13of the Holy Spirit in my life.
1:39:16>> Well, I would say it is evidence of the
1:39:17Holy Spirit leading you. In the Catholic
1:39:19faith, we have the OCIA process. It's a
1:39:21multi it's takes about nine months for
1:39:24you to be educated in what the church
1:39:26teaches. What is the faith that you're
1:39:28receiving? Right? Because as I mentioned
1:39:30earlier, it's like, oh, it can't just
1:39:32be, hey, believe in Jesus, be saved.
1:39:34There you go. Oh, and they, oh, wait,
1:39:35you're a trinitarian heretic. Wait, get
1:39:36back over here. We got to fix that
1:39:38really fast. You're actually believing
1:39:39in the wrong Jesus, you know, or you're,
1:39:41oh, you think that you can believe in
1:39:43Jesus and still have an only fans? Hold
1:39:44on. We got to we got to go through the
1:39:46moral teaching a little bit here. So, we
1:39:48take it very seriously before someone
1:39:49receives baptism that they are
1:39:51instructed in the essentials of the
1:39:53faith. But we see during that process,
1:39:55it was I I went through it, too. I was
1:39:57changing. I was praying more. I was I
1:39:59wanted to do what God wanted. The Holy
1:40:01Spirit was at work in my life, but the
1:40:03Holy Spirit was preparing me to receive
1:40:05the fullness of the theological virtues
1:40:08of faith, hope, and charity to be poured
1:40:10into my soul and fully and fully cleanse
1:40:13me of original sin and to initiate my my
1:40:18first moment of salvation as being an
1:40:20adopted child of God. So, but that
1:40:22doesn't preclude the Holy Spirit's going
1:40:24to work in anyone who is moving towards
1:40:27God. And also I think we could say if
1:40:29there's someone a pagan, you know, a
1:40:31non-Christian who claims to be Christian
1:40:33is doing good. I mean, God can still
1:40:35move people to do good even if they're
1:40:38not saved because he knows if they do
1:40:40good, they'll be more likely to go
1:40:41towards the ultimate good.
1:40:43>> But you know, I I think I don't think
1:40:44you can say that the Holy Spirit is
1:40:46working in someone without him being in
1:40:47them to do the work. I think God use
1:40:49read the scriptures say all things work
1:40:51together for the good for those who are
1:40:52in Christ Jesus. God uses all things.
1:40:54God works in all things. Well, for me to
1:40:56say God is working in me to root sin out
1:40:59of my life, to give certain things up,
1:41:01to make sacrifices.
1:41:03>> No, God God used pagans to be able to
1:41:05deliver his chosen people. We could say
1:41:07that he worked through he worked through
1:41:09some of them without them being fully
1:41:10saved. Like you look at Cyrus, for
1:41:11example, in the Old Testament, uh that
1:41:14he was even like talked about being an
1:41:16anointed one, but he was certainly not
1:41:18uh fully receptive of of God's spirit as
1:41:21other people who were actually called by
1:41:23God in the Old Testament. So, I don't
1:41:25think I would necessarily um agree with
1:41:28that, but I I think that we're we're
1:41:30having common ground here about saying
1:41:32that, you know, Catholics don't believe
1:41:34that it's like a light switch that it's
1:41:36like you're like basically God isn't in
1:41:38your we would never say God is never in
1:41:41your life at all until you're baptized.
1:41:43We wouldn't hold that. But we also don't
1:41:45hold the view that there's no
1:41:47metaphysical difference between an
1:41:51unbaptized and a baptized person. uh
1:41:53because to me it's it's it's very very
1:41:55clear both in scripture and the
1:41:58tradition history of the church that
1:42:00baptism is what changes our souls and it
1:42:03begins the moment of our salvation
1:42:06ordinarily.
1:42:07>> Yeah. I I guess when we're talking about
1:42:10for lack of better terms the nuances of
1:42:13Catholicism whether it be baptism or or
1:42:16well these creeds and these
1:42:18>> cate and like I said but that's that
1:42:19this isn't also a Catholic Protestant
1:42:21thing. This is a predtobaptist. This is
1:42:24a baptismal regenerative thing because
1:42:25many Protestants also agree with this
1:42:27feel.
1:42:27>> Sure. Sure. I I just mean in general
1:42:29like with the Catholicism talk here
1:42:30right now getting into the nuances of
1:42:33it. It it
1:42:34>> it it feels as if and I know I know you
1:42:37said, you know, some people take this
1:42:38perspective of Catholicism like there's
1:42:40all these hoops to jump through.
1:42:42>> But I, you know, being honest as I as
1:42:45we're talking, I'm like, man, these
1:42:46nuances feel like some sort of mental
1:42:49gymnastics for me. Well, you know, is
1:42:51someone going to heaven or hell if they
1:42:54don't go to the Catholic Church? Well,
1:42:55it depends. Well, it's like, well, what
1:42:56does it mean if it depends or or you
1:42:58know, with baptism, if if someone is,
1:43:00you know, actively a Catholic but
1:43:02doesn't get baptized, has no baptism of
1:43:04desire, no baptism of blood, doesn't get
1:43:06baptized, it's like, well, it depends.
1:43:08And I'm like, well,
1:43:08>> but remember though the question I
1:43:10brought up about the six-month-old who
1:43:12dies without faith in Jesus. Either
1:43:14you're going to say, "Yeah, he's going
1:43:15to hell. Didn't have faith. Dunzo." Or
1:43:18you're or you're going to say, "It
1:43:19depend." So for the six-month old, it's
1:43:21either it depends or hell. So which is
1:43:24it?
1:43:24>> Well, it we're talking about a six-month
1:43:26old that can't make a conscious decision
1:43:28versus like the, you know, I I I guess
1:43:30in my mind, I didn't clarify.
1:43:32>> I'm just saying the six-month-old who
1:43:33dies without faith in Jesus,
1:43:36is he going to hell? It sounds like
1:43:37there's only two options. Yes or it
1:43:39depends.
1:43:40>> Sure. Okay. Let's use this other example
1:43:42again. Let's let's go back to the moral
1:43:45law example you gave me.
1:43:46>> No, I need to push. I have to like are
1:43:48you g it's either yes, it depends or no?
1:43:52Because actually there's three views.
1:43:53Some people will say all unbapt all
1:43:54babies go to heaven. So it' be yes, it
1:43:57depends, or no. Will they go to hell?
1:43:59Yes, they go to hell. It depends.
1:44:01>> I personally believe all babies do go to
1:44:02heaven.
1:44:03>> Okay. So then you would answer you'd
1:44:04answer no.
1:44:06>> Yes. But but that shows but that shows
1:44:08you don't always need faith in Christ to
1:44:10go to heaven.
1:44:11>> Well, that we're talking about ch again.
1:44:13Where does faith come from? Faith is
1:44:14like a conscious decision. That's why
1:44:16like I do take baptism seriously. Like
1:44:19if someone comes up to me and is like,
1:44:20"Hey, I want to get baptized." I'm like,
1:44:22"Okay, well, you and I would say and
1:44:23that and that's like the cool thing
1:44:24about the OC the OCA is
1:44:27>> OCIA. OCA."
1:44:28>> Back when I was a kid though, it was
1:44:29RCIA. They changed it.
1:44:31>> They They're throwing It's upgraded.
1:44:33They George Lucased and added CGI and
1:44:36things. [laughter] So, you don't even
1:44:37know what I'm talking about.
1:44:38>> It's like a, you know, they got they
1:44:40have these things and it's like, okay,
1:44:41we can say this person's sincere.
1:44:43They're making a step. Like, they've got
1:44:45sincere faith in Jesus. Like, we're
1:44:46talking about a child who doesn't have
1:44:49like a conscious decision who can't make
1:44:50the conscious decision. I guess in my
1:44:52scenario, I'm thinking of like a
1:44:5320-year-old who is go who's who's
1:44:55considerably Catholic. And that's why I
1:44:57thought the other example you used
1:44:59earlier in a different context of like,
1:45:01oh well we would you hold to do not
1:45:02murder and do not commit adultery. And
1:45:03I'm like yeah and it's like well what
1:45:04about the Sabbath? And I'm like okay
1:45:06well we're talking about more moral law
1:45:09on adultery and that versus like Sabbath
1:45:12which could be symbolically held on
1:45:14Friday night to Saturday night or a
1:45:16Sunday. So I feel like that example was
1:45:17a little bit
1:45:18>> well there's two issues that arise here.
1:45:21First, the reason I brought up the
1:45:22six-month-old is that when you say,
1:45:24"Well, I'm concerned that Catholicism,
1:45:27you have to give a bunch of nuanced
1:45:29explanations about how to be saved." I
1:45:32would say every Christian articulation
1:45:36of salvation will have a nuanced
1:45:39explanation that could sound like hoops
1:45:42or, you know, a bunch of explanations
1:45:45like super complicated. every Christian
1:45:47articulation will have that view unless
1:45:51it's incredibly simple and then creates
1:45:54contradictions. So yeah, you could just
1:45:55you could just be someone who says,
1:45:56"Look, you go to heaven if you believe
1:45:58in Jesus. You don't believe in Jesus.
1:46:00You're a six-month old baby. You go to
1:46:02hell for eternity." That's very simple,
1:46:04but I think our knowledge of the love of
1:46:05God says that's probably false.
1:46:07>> Sure. Uh but then someone says, "Oh,
1:46:09well look, uh everybody everyone who
1:46:13never knew who Jesus is through no fault
1:46:15of their own will go to heaven. So all
1:46:17six-month-olds go, "Yeah, okay then."
1:46:19But then what about the the
1:46:229-year-old native? What about the Native
1:46:24Americans a thousand years ago? Some of
1:46:26them probably really strove to follow
1:46:28Romans 1 and God and what they knew.
1:46:30Others probably just totally gave into
1:46:31wickedness. But the fact that a super
1:46:33wicked Native American is going to go to
1:46:36heaven on a technicality because he
1:46:38never knew he through no fault of his
1:46:39own didn't know Jesus. I would say so
1:46:42back to that six-month old question,
1:46:43does the six-month-old go to heaven? You
1:46:45know, you say yes or no. My point is
1:46:47just that any articulation, whether it's
1:46:48the Catholic view, the Lutheran view,
1:46:50the Presbyterian view, the Baptist view,
1:46:51if it's well thought out, there will be
1:46:53nuances. So the qu so the presence of
1:46:56nuances should not make us doubt whether
1:46:58it's true or false. Yeah, I guess it's
1:47:00not it's not more it's not as much of
1:47:02like a doubt. It's just yes, there is a
1:47:04nuance. So like my nuance is I believe
1:47:06all babies go to heaven because of the
1:47:07fate thing being like a conscious
1:47:09decision, right? That's why I didn't
1:47:11necessarily have the problem with like a
1:47:12three-year-old if he claims to
1:47:14consciously make a decision to follow
1:47:15Jesus, then like I'm not going to like 1
1:47:18Corinthians 13, love hopes all things,
1:47:20I'm going to hope the best.
1:47:21>> But then what about the three-year-old
1:47:22who doesn't know Jesus and dies like and
1:47:25and has done wrong? Like will that
1:47:27person go to heaven? Well, that's where
1:47:28I that's where we're trusting that God
1:47:30judges the earth justly, righteously,
1:47:32and perfectly. And so, like I have
1:47:34>> and that's and that's what I say about
1:47:35non-atholics.
1:47:36>> Yep. And and so that's but Yes. And I
1:47:37and I I recognize that. I guess that's
1:47:39where I'm I would with the with the
1:47:42Muslim with the person born in a Muslim
1:47:43family that grew up in the Middle East.
1:47:46um and that person doesn't hear the
1:47:48gospel one time, doesn't get preached to
1:47:50or anything like that, and they die,
1:47:52>> I'm going to stand 10 toes down and be
1:47:53like, "Yeah, I think they go to hell
1:47:55>> because I think that and like yeah, I'm
1:47:57going to, you know, be honest."
1:47:58>> But I guess what's what's the difference
1:48:00between that person and just like a like
1:48:04there's different it sounds like there's
1:48:05just different there's some kinds of
1:48:08impossible to believe. You're like,
1:48:10"Well, it's not your fault." Like if
1:48:11your brain is too small because you're a
1:48:12six-month-old, but if other impossible
1:48:15to believe, like you could never have
1:48:17heard about Jesus because of where you
1:48:18were born, well, you're still culpable.
1:48:21It just seems like a weird you have
1:48:22different standards of impossible to
1:48:24believe will absolve you or not. Well, I
1:48:27mean, we have the testimony of like what
1:48:28500 Muslims all having the same dream
1:48:30and in the Gaza Strip and like coming to
1:48:32faith like years ago after October 7th
1:48:34happened. And so it's like they had no
1:48:36Bible, no gospel was preached to them
1:48:38from a person, but they have this dream
1:48:40about Jesus in the Gaza Strip. They come
1:48:42to faith in that way. I'm like, man,
1:48:44praise God. And I think God uses, you
1:48:45would agree all, but that makes it sound
1:48:48like if God doesn't miraculously reveal
1:48:50himself to someone born in a culture
1:48:52where he ordinarily couldn't know Jesus,
1:48:55that person couldn't be saved. So that
1:48:57makes it sound like that's like the
1:48:58Calvinist view of saying that God's
1:49:00going to decide if that person is saved
1:49:02or not because he chose whether to
1:49:04miraculously reveal himself or not.
1:49:05>> Well, then that's when you know we go
1:49:07back to the Romans one like God has
1:49:09divinely
1:49:10>> put his righteousness throughout all of
1:49:12creation so that humanity is without
1:49:14excuse where I would say if someone can
1:49:17make a conscious decision in their life,
1:49:18they can look up in the sky with two
1:49:20cents in their brain and go, "Wow,
1:49:22there's got to be a creator. Look at the
1:49:23majesty. Look at the order. look at the
1:49:25design which you appealed to a little
1:49:27bit earlier in another point like we we
1:49:29would both agree majesty order and
1:49:30design points to a divine mind and so I
1:49:33think anyone can go there has to be a
1:49:35god out there and then that therefore
1:49:37makes him question and and you know
1:49:39we're going down the rabbit hole here
1:49:41but I I I I do I I I want to I want to
1:49:44be honest in that regard that's what I
1:49:46do believe about like oh the Muslim
1:49:47growing up in that area in another
1:49:50country who has never heard the gospel
1:49:52preached doesn't have access to a Bible
1:49:54if they die believing a false doctrine,
1:49:57then I'm going to be like, well, yeah,
1:49:58they put their faith in something else
1:49:59other than Jesus. But that's why I'm
1:50:01like, oh, when Muslims have a dream
1:50:03about Jesus, then and they put their
1:50:05faith in that. I mean, we have history
1:50:07of, you know, a man in white eyes of
1:50:09fire, hairike wool, meeting uh the Maldi
1:50:13people in like the 1400s at the top of a
1:50:14mountain.
1:50:15>> How about just like the 5-year-old girl
1:50:16who's raised in atheistic Soviet Union
1:50:19and dies and isn't going to believe in
1:50:22Jesus. Will she go to hell? I would if
1:50:24I'm being consistent with my with my
1:50:26understanding then I would have to say
1:50:27yes.
1:50:28>> Three-year-old
1:50:29>> if I'm being consistent with what I said
1:50:30earlier I would have to say yes if I'm
1:50:32being consistent.
1:50:32>> Yeah. And I would say that
1:50:33>> but I I'm I can see where I'm falling
1:50:36into where I'm beginning to get hesitant
1:50:37as we go down the rabbit hole. I do
1:50:39acknowledge that.
1:50:40>> Yeah. And so that is where my view and
1:50:42the Catholic Church's view of saying
1:50:44that God is the ultimate author of
1:50:46salvation. He has provided us the
1:50:48ordinary means. We reject them at our
1:50:51peril. But God in his infinite grace can
1:50:55work beyond all of the sins in our
1:50:57world. And who he saves, who God saves,
1:50:59that's ultimately up to him. There's
1:51:01only one person in this life where we
1:51:03can have moral certainty of their
1:51:04salvation, and that's ourselves. And
1:51:07ultimately, at the end of the day, we
1:51:08have to say, what does God want me to
1:51:10do? And so, just as a Catholic, I would
1:51:12say, okay, well, I'm going to go to the
1:51:14church Christ established and say, what
1:51:16what has God taught? Versus me just
1:51:18trying to figure it out on my own. See
1:51:20the discussions we have here I think
1:51:22Protestants and Catholics we can have
1:51:24really and they're they're fun you know
1:51:26like scripture mean this fathers mean
1:51:28that and
1:51:29>> but at the end of the day what I would
1:51:31say is did God want to leave the
1:51:34knowledge of the truths he revealed just
1:51:37to oh well which Bible debater is the
1:51:41most persuasive like that guy was really
1:51:43good in the debate so I'm going to
1:51:44listen to him there's a lot of heretics
1:51:45who are super good at debates
1:51:47>> and I don't and I would say no that's
1:51:49not what God left he had to leave
1:51:50something else with a sign of his
1:51:53authority uh to give us these sort of
1:51:55clear teachings. So I think at the end
1:51:57of the day the Protestant Catholic
1:51:58differences although a lot of what we
1:51:59discussed is really it's the baptism
1:52:01debate even Protestants have
1:52:03>> it's always going to go back to that
1:52:04bigger step of just what is the ultimate
1:52:06authority to settle these issues? Will
1:52:09it be Christians debating amongst each
1:52:10other or are there pastors who can say,
1:52:13"We get that you guys are debating this,
1:52:15but the pastors of the whole church,
1:52:17we've all gotten together. We're
1:52:19bringing this issue to an end now and
1:52:20everybody's got to knock this off
1:52:22already." Just like they did at Nika
1:52:24about the divinity of Christ or about
1:52:26the incarnation hypothic union at
1:52:28Calcidon. I think that's the biggest
1:52:31question for that. I would encourage
1:52:32Protestants out there to say look at the
1:52:36ultimate authority question. Who are the
1:52:38who are the authoritative pastors? What
1:52:40are the ultimate authority? I think
1:52:42that's when it's got to be really
1:52:43answered, you know.
1:52:44>> Yeah. Let's go let's go to the the the
1:52:46Eucharist, okay, conversation because I
1:52:48I think this is very fascinating to me.
1:52:50And the reason that it intrigues me is
1:52:53because I grew up Southern Baptist. So,
1:52:55I grew up communion as a symbol. And
1:52:58something that I appreciate is God's
1:53:00grace on
1:53:03me for viewing it merely as a symbol.
1:53:06And I did approach it willy-nilly many
1:53:08times. Granted,
1:53:10>> for the sake of I just thought it was a
1:53:11symbol. Here it is. Take communion once
1:53:13a month. Big holidays. That's it. Right.
1:53:16As I've begun to read,
1:53:19>> Mhm. I'm going I don't I don't think
1:53:22it's just a symbol. But where I land on
1:53:25the Eucharist theology line is
1:53:29I don't believe it's just a symbol, but
1:53:30I have not been fully convinced of
1:53:32transubstantiation, which for those
1:53:34listening is the idea that the the bread
1:53:37is the literal flesh, the blood, the
1:53:39wine is the blood.
1:53:40>> We can always work with where you're at.
1:53:42I I find a lot of times when people sort
1:53:43through a lot of these issues, um I will
1:53:46be honest, in recent years, there's a
1:53:49little bit of a pipeline. Uh people will
1:53:51often start sort of maybe low church
1:53:53Baptists like yourself. Well actually
1:53:55there was an academic recently Matthew
1:53:57Barrett. He was a Baptist scholar. He
1:54:01wrote a defense of solos scriptorera. Uh
1:54:04and then later on though he's radically
1:54:07changed his theology and is now
1:54:10Anglican. And people question like is he
1:54:12going to go Catholic? Like he's really
1:54:13tipone in that area. Well, uh, a friend
1:54:15of mine, Steven Boyce, um, he has a
1:54:17YouTube channel, Facts, FACS.
1:54:20And two years ago, Stephen and I took
1:54:23part in a public debate on justification
1:54:26by faith alone. It was a two twoon two
1:54:29debate. He was partnered with another
1:54:30Protestant and myself and my colleague
1:54:33Jimmy Aken. So, we did a two-on- debate
1:54:35on justification by faith alone. And
1:54:37Stephen admitted at the time, even, you
1:54:38know, prior to that, he was a he was a
1:54:40Baptist. He had been on James White's
1:54:42channel, but he felt like, look, the
1:54:44Baptist theology,
1:54:45>> Eucharist being a symbol, baptism is
1:54:48something that you just show as a as a
1:54:50symbol of your renewal. Uh,
1:54:52critobaptism, he's like, can't find this
1:54:54in the early church, can't find it. So,
1:54:56he then moves towards Anglicanism. Then
1:54:58we debate and he's, you know, still
1:55:00sorting through Anglicanism, but
1:55:01ultimately the Catholic Church's
1:55:03universal claims in relation to the the
1:55:06fracturing in Anglicanism, the the
1:55:08historical problems. He's now um come
1:55:11into the Catholic Church.
1:55:12>> And so I think sometimes there's like,
1:55:15well, the low church, I want to go to a
1:55:17higher church, but still many of the
1:55:19problems I thought wouldn't persist are
1:55:21kind of still there. And then people
1:55:23sort of um move over as a result. So I
1:55:25think that a lot of people when this is
1:55:26debated like the Eucharist there's
1:55:28actually there is a a gulf between just
1:55:30a symbol and um transubstantiation to
1:55:35say that Jesus the bread and wine is the
1:55:38body and blood of Christ. So I guess I
1:55:40put it this way there's a symbol that's
1:55:42like the Zing and actually the
1:55:43Protestant reformers they couldn't agree
1:55:45on this. They had huge fights about
1:55:46this. Uh cuz Olrich Zwingley was a Swiss
1:55:49reformer who said it's a symbol and
1:55:52Calvin's view is more no it's not a
1:55:53symbol. Christ is present uh to
1:55:56believers. So like if you receive the
1:55:58Eucharist as a believer you're receiving
1:55:59Christ. Uh so the bread and wine
1:56:02communicate Jesus. uh Lutheran following
1:56:05Martin Luther would say, "Well, no, it's
1:56:06more it is the bread and wine are Jesus,
1:56:10not just for unbelievers, but also not
1:56:13just sorry, not just for believers." But
1:56:15if an unbeliever received it, they'd
1:56:16also be receiving Jesus.
1:56:18>> And in 1 Corinthians chapter 11, Paul
1:56:20says, "If you eat and drink of the
1:56:22Eucharist in an unworthy way, you eat
1:56:23and drink judgment on yourself." Why?
1:56:25Some of you are dying even. Yeah.
1:56:26>> And that would make sense if the
1:56:27Lutheran view is saying, "Well, no."
1:56:30>> So this it's a symbol of Jesus. Jesus is
1:56:33communicated through the bread and wine.
1:56:35The Lutheran view is called sacramental
1:56:37union. I think the reformed call it
1:56:40conssubstantiation, but Lutheran are
1:56:41like, "We never called it that, dude.
1:56:43Come on." To make because the reformed
1:56:45are trying to say, "You guys are
1:56:46basically like Catholics. You they're
1:56:48transubstantiation. Lutheran are just
1:56:50consubstantiation." And they're like,
1:56:51"Dude, come on. We didn't." No. They the
1:56:53Lutheran would say the bread and wine
1:56:56contain Jesus. They contain him. And so
1:56:58they it affects even the forgiveness of
1:57:00sins. Where Lutheran would stop short is
1:57:02they Catholics we would and Orthodox
1:57:04would say the bread and wine is Jesus
1:57:08that what we call bread and wine no
1:57:10longer remain.
1:57:12>> And so the word transubstantiation it's
1:57:14a medieval scholastic term to describe
1:57:16this change that what appears there are
1:57:19the appearances but the substance has
1:57:21changed. Uh and so in the early church
1:57:24like the eastern the Greek fathers I
1:57:27think it was Gregory of Nissa he used
1:57:28the term meta stoicosis
1:57:31that it literally means
1:57:32transelementation.
1:57:34[clears throat]
1:57:34>> So that's where we have to get into
1:57:36substance and accidents. So, to make a
1:57:38very rough analogy, you can't press too
1:57:40literally, like we could take like your
1:57:42we could get makeup artists and wardrobe
1:57:44people and plastic surgeons and like
1:57:47they could dye your hair and give you
1:57:50the the the curly cues, contacts, uh,
1:57:53all the other stuff, make you look like
1:57:54me,
1:57:55>> and they could make me look hip and cool
1:57:57like you, you know, with the more
1:57:59carefree hair, you know, put put some
1:58:00tattoos on me. I prefer Hannah. Got to
1:58:02get got to get off eventually. Too old
1:58:04to be rocking all that stuff. uh they
1:58:06you know they can make you look like me
1:58:07and me look like you. But inside you're
1:58:09still going to be you and I'm still
1:58:10going to be me.
1:58:11>> This is just an analogy. Don't press it
1:58:13too deeply. But God so man can change
1:58:15the outside but not the inside. God can
1:58:18change the inside without the outside.
1:58:22So God could do like Freaky Friday where
1:58:24it's like I'm in your body and you're in
1:58:25my body. Just an analogy for the
1:58:27philosophers out there. It's
1:58:28conceptualized. So it's like God could
1:58:30do that. He man can only change the
1:58:32outside, not the metaphysical inside.
1:58:35But God can change the metaphysical
1:58:36inside while leaving the outside. Now
1:58:38for human beings in order to we can
1:58:39change the metaphysical inside we
1:58:41usually have to destroy the outside.
1:58:43>> So like your soul being in your body,
1:58:46right? That's a metaphysical thing about
1:58:47you. But if somebody cut off your head,
1:58:49they'll change that fact about you real
1:58:51quick.
1:58:51>> Yeah.
1:58:51>> Because your soul will leave your body
1:58:52then. But they have to change the
1:58:53outside to do that. To change the
1:58:54inside. God can change the inside
1:58:56without changing the outside.
1:58:58>> He can change the substance,
1:59:01not the accidents. So to give another
1:59:02example of like substance, what the heck
1:59:04does that mean? Like okay, so you said
1:59:07you were born what, like 24 years ago?
1:59:0923.
1:59:09>> Uh 22 2003.
1:59:11>> Okay. So you're born 22 years ago. And
1:59:14you
1:59:16not just were the same baby that was
1:59:17born. You're like you were the same
1:59:18embryo that was in your mother's body.
1:59:21>> But here's but the thing is though,
1:59:23you're the same, but there's nothing
1:59:25physically about you that's the same.
1:59:26You have different cells. Even from
1:59:28being a baby, they're all basically
1:59:29different. Even if you only have like 5%
1:59:31of the same cells, you have a totally
1:59:33new body. Like if I change my car and
1:59:35only 5% of the old parts are there, it's
1:59:37a brand new car.
1:59:38>> Yeah.
1:59:38>> But people are different. So it's like,
1:59:40oh wait, yeah, we've got this material
1:59:43that accidents. There's things that can
1:59:44change about us that we don't change.
1:59:46Like I could grow my hair out, you know,
1:59:48I could do the looks maxing leg
1:59:51lengthening thing, which which guys
1:59:53don't. Girls really don't. Stop jamming
1:59:56hammers in your face and lengthening
1:59:57your legs. Just just be funny and
2:00:00confident and not a weirdo and girls
2:00:01would like you. Sorry, we'll [laughter]
2:00:02do the whole look maxing episode.
2:00:03>> I like it.
2:00:04>> Yeah, totally. But like you could change
2:00:05that. You could you could make me like
2:00:07six feet tall and I'd still be me. I
2:00:09would just be really regretting that
2:00:10when I'm 60 probably. Yeah, but I still
2:00:11be me. Um you can change accidents, but
2:00:14there's something that's substantial.
2:00:16It's the metaphysical core that unites
2:00:18all of it together. That that is
2:00:20something that even that I had uh as an
2:00:22embryo that still persists into me. And
2:00:25that would be part of like my immaterial
2:00:27soul that God gave me. So Catholics
2:00:30believe that look, God wants us to
2:00:31receive the body, blood, soul, and
2:00:33divinity of Jesus Christ. He wants us to
2:00:34receive him as the Passover lamb, but
2:00:36not like cannibals do with actual flesh
2:00:38and blood. So it's very fitting under
2:00:40the signs of bread and wine and their
2:00:43sacramental significance that the when
2:00:46the priest prays over them the bread and
2:00:49wine the appearances remain but God can
2:00:51change that substance the metaphysical
2:00:54inside the core that like humans can't
2:00:56touch but God can change and through a
2:00:59miracle he keeps all the accidents
2:01:00united like our souls are what keep all
2:01:02of our bodily accidents together because
2:01:05like think about when you die right we
2:01:06say a body decomposes
2:01:08>> well Our soul is what makes us composed.
2:01:11It keeps all our parts together.
2:01:12Otherwise, starts to fall apart and
2:01:14decompose. So in God changing the normal
2:01:18substance of bread and wine, what keeps
2:01:20all the accidents together through a
2:01:22miracle that is the body and blood of
2:01:23Christ uniting what appears to be bread
2:01:26and wine. That the appearances remain.
2:01:28What we see, touch, taste, hear, and
2:01:30smell. But what we are actually
2:01:31receiving, we would say no, we're not
2:01:33just saying the bread and wine are
2:01:34containing Jesus. You say we are
2:01:36receiving the body, blood, soul and
2:01:38divinity of Jesus Christ. And the early
2:01:39Christians like what I said about
2:01:40baptism, they are very clear about this.
2:01:43Like Ignatius of Antioch in the year 107
2:01:46along with saying obey the bishop as as
2:01:48Jesus Christ obeys the father, which is
2:01:50that's wild. I don't know if I've ever
2:01:51heard a Protestant say something like
2:01:52that. He said that heretics abstain from
2:01:56the Eucharist because they do not
2:01:58confess that it is the flesh and blood
2:02:00of our savior Jesus Christ. and they say
2:02:03it's not that so I'm not going to
2:02:04receive that.
2:02:05>> But receiving it to say or Justin Martyr
2:02:07in the year 165 he's saying not as
2:02:10ordinary bread and wine do we receive
2:02:12these things but as the body and blood
2:02:14of of that of that Jesus Christ who was
2:02:17crucified. M
2:02:18>> so if you have that understanding of the
2:02:21sacramental worldview uh a good book if
2:02:23your listeners want to go deeper on that
2:02:25is called Jesus and the Jewish roots of
2:02:27the Eucharist by Brandt Petri that what
2:02:30can be hard for us to understand a lot
2:02:32of times you'll understand the Catholic
2:02:33faith if when you start to understand
2:02:35Judaism really well and you see oh like
2:02:38I've had I brought Jewish people to mass
2:02:39and they'll say this is just like temple
2:02:42sort of and I'm like yeah it's the
2:02:43fulfillment it's the fulfillment of
2:02:46Jewish worship.
2:02:47found in the true Messiah, Jesus Christ.
2:02:49>> Wow. And so you see that under the
2:02:52Eucharist, all what Jesus says about the
2:02:54bread of life, about the mana that come
2:02:55down from heaven, it can be very
2:02:57difficult to understand that without
2:02:58understanding the endurance of the
2:03:00Passover, the mana man who in Hebrew in
2:03:03the Old Testament that seeing all these
2:03:05Jewish roots, that's something that's
2:03:06attracted me and many other a lot of
2:03:08other Jews convert to Catholicism
2:03:10because they see that, oh wow, this if
2:03:12Jesus is the Messiah, what God gave us
2:03:14in the old covenant, it's not just done
2:03:16away with, it's found its fulfillment.
2:03:17Jesus said, "I've come not to abolish
2:03:19the law and the prophets, but to fulfill
2:03:21them."
2:03:22>> I'm not going to lie, that's the best
2:03:24explanation I've heard of the Catholic
2:03:27perspective of the Eucharist. It makes
2:03:29me think, it makes me think a lot. I I
2:03:31land in the real presence category right
2:03:34now where I believe that like
2:03:36>> the presence of the Lord is there when
2:03:39partaking in communion. And when I began
2:03:40to like
2:03:42>> kind of have that perspective,
2:03:44>> I and get get this reverence back.
2:03:46Actually, one of my Protestant pastor
2:03:48friends came back from attending a
2:03:50Catholic mass in New York. Yeah. And was
2:03:51like,
2:03:52>> I think we have lost a reverence for
2:03:54communion. And I just happened to be
2:03:56with him in in Alabama.
2:03:57>> Let me ask you a question. Do you think
2:03:59Jesus his real presence in the Eucharist
2:04:01is different than the presence of when
2:04:04two or three are gathered in his name?
2:04:06>> In a in a way, yes, I I I do. And I I
2:04:10think yes, I do. I'm nudging you along
2:04:13the spectrum till I can get you to to
2:04:15the Catholic view. I just got But look,
2:04:17what I'm saying here is so if it is,
2:04:20then the question you'll have to sort
2:04:21out for yourself is, well, I guess I say
2:04:23this. Let's say you brought um a
2:04:25non-believer to your church. He's just
2:04:27like, I want to check out church. I'm
2:04:28not sure exactly what this is. I'm going
2:04:30to come check it out. I don't believe in
2:04:31Jesus yet, but I want to see. You be
2:04:32like, cool, man. Come.
2:04:33>> You know, you could just hang out. You
2:04:34don't have to do anything. Just check it
2:04:35out. Okay.
2:04:36>> And people go up to receive the
2:04:38Eucharist.
2:04:39>> Would it be okay for him to go receive
2:04:41the Eucharist? I I I personally believe
2:04:42in close communion.
2:04:44>> Okay. Pushing you further.
2:04:46>> You're pushing me. You're pushing
2:04:48[laughter] me.
2:04:49>> Yeah. But and the reason for that would
2:04:51be, oh, it's because it's like we would
2:04:54never say, oh, you can't hear the Bible
2:04:56until you're Christian. It's like, well,
2:04:57of course you can hear the B. You can
2:04:59receive, you know, we're we're hearing
2:05:00the words of Jesus that we're receiving
2:05:02receiving grace by, you know, obviously
2:05:04we give the word of scripture to a
2:05:06non-believer. But in the in the dedicay
2:05:08what I mentioned earlier about baptism,
2:05:10it has instructions about the Eucharist
2:05:12and it says uh it quotes Jesus and
2:05:15remember this is like honestly there's
2:05:17scholars who believe that dedicay is
2:05:19older than the um gospel of Matthew
2:05:22because Matthew and the dedicay are
2:05:23parallel that either the dedicay drew
2:05:25from Matthew or Matthew is actually
2:05:27paralleling things that are already
2:05:28found in the dedicay and one of those is
2:05:30in the dedicay it says uh do not give
2:05:32the eucharist to those who are not
2:05:33baptized for our lord said do not give
2:05:35that which is holy to
2:05:38You know going back to what he said in
2:05:39the sermon on the mount saying this is
2:05:40what Jesus means by that the first
2:05:42century Christians would say what that
2:05:44means is the Eucharist is a very holy
2:05:46presence of Jesus that we share.
2:05:48>> So we cannot give that which is holy to
2:05:50those who have not been made holy
2:05:52through baptism already. And so if you
2:05:54argue for closed communion that would
2:05:56push one more towards oh this is to say
2:05:59no Jesus like the Eucharist he's he's
2:06:02really present here even if you don't
2:06:03believe that is him. And so if you're
2:06:06not prepared to receive just the same as
2:06:08a Catholic who is in grave sin cannot go
2:06:11and receive Jesus in the Eucharist
2:06:12because they eat and drink judgment on
2:06:14themselves.
2:06:15>> Receiving the Eucharist is a sign to
2:06:17say, "I am in communion with you, Lord,
2:06:19and with the church, and I desire to to
2:06:22receive you, Lord. Come and enter under
2:06:24under my roof." As the uh the Roman
2:06:27soldier said about Jesus.
2:06:28>> Yeah. You know,
2:06:29>> yeah. I I I I I I do I enjoy when I say
2:06:33this, I'm not like just landing like,
2:06:35"Yep, this is where I'm going to be for
2:06:36the rest of my life." I enjoy the real
2:06:38presence perspective right now of Yeah.
2:06:40>> communion because I feel like I have
2:06:42found this new profound reverence and
2:06:44respect for the Lord in it. Yeah. And my
2:06:47>> not that it's about experience, but my
2:06:49experience with communion
2:06:51>> and the presence of God
2:06:54>> is drastically different. And in fact, I
2:06:57I I'm at this place right now where
2:06:59Father Lazarus, my Coptic Orthodox
2:07:02friend, Yeah.
2:07:02>> he's we're we were talking about the
2:07:03Eucharist and he's like, "It's my
2:07:05medicine. Like, I can't live without
2:07:07it." And when he said that, I'm like,
2:07:09>> it just made me just begin to think of
2:07:11all the the times prior. I give you an
2:07:13example like um so we for those who are
2:07:16too sick to receive the Eucharist we
2:07:18have a ministry where those priests will
2:07:20do this but also lay people when there's
2:07:21not enough priests to deliver the
2:07:23Eucharist to the homebound to you know
2:07:25they're stuck in a hospital bed or
2:07:27something so they can receive and this
2:07:28is what the early Christians you the
2:07:31early Christians used that language they
2:07:33said this is the medicine of immortality
2:07:36not that we earn eternal life by
2:07:38receiving the Eucharist but we're saying
2:07:40that just like Look, I'm alive because
2:07:43my parents gave birth to me and they
2:07:44raised me and gave me life. I didn't
2:07:46earn it at all. If I choose to not eat
2:07:48the food, I'm going to die. I choose I
2:07:50the food isn't earned my life. It's just
2:07:52saying I could choose to kill myself by
2:07:54going on a hunger strike. Probably the
2:07:55worst way to go. Well, Christians can do
2:07:57the same thing if they choose to not
2:07:59receive Jesus in the Eucharist. You
2:08:01don't always have to receive every
2:08:02Sunday. You have to celebrate. But you
2:08:05could be in a state of grave sin where
2:08:06you're not able to receive the
2:08:07Eucharist. You could live in a very poor
2:08:08area where a priest maybe comes once
2:08:11every few months. The church just gives
2:08:13as a law when you're able to to receive
2:08:14the Eucharist at least once a year,
2:08:16preferably during the Easter season, but
2:08:18ideally more than that because Pope
2:08:20Francis has said, "Look, the Eucharist
2:08:22is not a prize for being holy." He says
2:08:24it is the medicine of immortality. It is
2:08:26what um heals us. It's what gives us
2:08:29spiritual grace to be able to resist
2:08:30sin, resist temptation. M so I think
2:08:33there that you are um yeah you're you're
2:08:36on a you're on a good and and right
2:08:38track with that but to see that this is
2:08:41this is important. Why is it important
2:08:43and yeah that medicine immortality
2:08:45language is is very um very early on in
2:08:48the church and and how it's used. So
2:08:50>> yeah I I I did like that phrase
2:08:52phraseology and that language. I it it
2:08:55was it was very interesting to me. I I I
2:08:57like talking in honest conversation
2:08:59about this stuff because I am intrigued
2:09:02and the Catholicism intrigues me and oh
2:09:05I forgot I was going to say about the
2:09:06homebound. Sorry I have three kids and
2:09:08they kept me up last night. But like
2:09:09let's say you believe like you're going
2:09:11to go give that Eucharist. Like maybe in
2:09:13your own church say I'm sure you'd love
2:09:14to do this like hey there's someone I
2:09:16want to receive the Eucharist and you're
2:09:17like oh you're stuck at home. I'll bring
2:09:18it to you. I'll do that. There were
2:09:20saints in the early church. There's a
2:09:22story of a saint named Tarscissius. This
2:09:24was when the Roman Empire was still
2:09:26persecuting Christians. And he um was
2:09:28bringing the Eucharist to people in the
2:09:30catacombs, others who were in hiding,
2:09:32couldn't couldn't go to mass, couldn't
2:09:33receive it. And a mob descended on him
2:09:36and asked him what he was doing. And
2:09:37they tried to take the Eucharist from
2:09:38him.
2:09:39>> And he miraculously held onto the
2:09:42Eucharist so hard they couldn't pry it
2:09:44out of his hands. Even as they beat him
2:09:47to death, he would not allow the
2:09:50Eucharist to fall into their hands. He
2:09:52did not want it to be. He wanted to
2:09:53protect it and to save it. And so that's
2:09:55one of the reasons that he was the early
2:09:57Christians recognized that God had
2:09:59miraculously worked through him. And now
2:10:00he had died as a witness to the faith, a
2:10:03witness to not just that Jesus died, but
2:10:05that Jesus died, rose, and now is
2:10:07present in the Eucharist for any who
2:10:08would receive the medicine of
2:10:09immortality. U and so I think that that
2:10:14kind of a witness to me there's only
2:10:15look there's only two options to look at
2:10:17that. Either St. Tarissius was was a
2:10:20faithful disciple of Jesus and loved
2:10:22Jesus and died for him or he was an
2:10:25idoltor and he thought a piece of bread
2:10:27was God. So I think like one has to
2:10:29eventually make the choice not just that
2:10:31this bread and wine that it contained
2:10:32Jesus in a spiritual way but it's the
2:10:34bread it's it is I am carrying the body
2:10:36of Christ with me right now. So to me
2:10:37it's like you look at that story it's
2:10:39like look he's either a martyr for
2:10:41Christ or there many Protestants say
2:10:43that guy's an idoltor going to hell. He
2:10:44thinks bread is Jesus. And I would
2:10:46encourage Protestants who would think
2:10:48through this question of the Eucharist.
2:10:49If they want to go deeper, I'll shill
2:10:51another book. My friend Joe Heshmire has
2:10:52a book called The Eucharist is Really
2:10:54Jesus.
2:10:55>> I'll just I'm going to mail you all this
2:10:57stuff, man. I'm going to mail you all
2:10:58this. I was going to bring one of my
2:11:00books. I brought I brought another gift
2:11:01for you. I don't know if I was going to
2:11:02have time to give it to you or not. I'll
2:11:03be sure to ask about it. But I brought
2:11:04you I'll do it now.
2:11:07>> Oh, I'm pumped.
2:11:07>> I brought you brought you something.
2:11:09>> Whoa. Let's go.
2:11:10>> I was going to bring you books, but I
2:11:11can mail books. Wow.
2:11:12>> That is a Jerusalem cross.
2:11:14>> Wow. So the Jerusalem cross uh was
2:11:17popular around the 10th and 11th century
2:11:21and uh so it was on the flags of the
2:11:24crusaders who are retaking Jerusalem.
2:11:25>> Yeah.
2:11:26>> I bought that from Christians in
2:11:29Jerusalem when I was in 20 there in
2:11:312018.
2:11:32And I actually took that and several
2:11:35other crosses that I bought and prayed
2:11:37over them when I placed them on the tomb
2:11:39of Jesus.
2:11:40>> Whoa. So this this one was on
2:11:42>> that was that is on the Jesus's tomb
2:11:44that is in the church of the holy supplr
2:11:46in Jerusalem.
2:11:47>> Oh man.
2:11:47>> Yeah.
2:11:48>> This is a really kind gift. Thank you.
2:11:50>> And so the symbolism there's there's
2:11:52different origins of the symbols. Uh one
2:11:54says the five crosses are symbols of the
2:11:57five wounds of Christ. His hands, his
2:11:59feet and his side.
2:12:00>> Uh another symbol is that the four
2:12:03smaller crosses are the gospels that are
2:12:06being spread to the four corners of the
2:12:08earth.
2:12:08>> Very fascinating.
2:12:09>> So yeah. So that was the cross popular.
2:12:10The the Franciscan friars of the Holy
2:12:12Land carry that cross as their symbol.
2:12:16>> But yeah.
2:12:16>> Dang, this is very cool. Thank you so
2:12:18much. This is sweet. I love it. This is
2:12:21Wow. Thank you.
2:12:22>> Have you ever been to Israel?
2:12:23>> Not yet. I want to go. I really
2:12:24>> When things I tell you what, man. When
2:12:26things calm down there, um when they
2:12:28calm down, I'll take you. We'll have a
2:12:30good time.
2:12:31>> I would love to go. I really want to go.
2:12:32I want to see it. I want to I want to I
2:12:34want to see the Holy Land. I want to
2:12:35walk and just I want to go. I I just
2:12:38want to see it all.
2:12:39>> Dude, the best is though, if you go, I
2:12:41love it. Um, you're probably going to be
2:12:42like my wife because like I you know,
2:12:44she's got like blue eyes and blonde
2:12:46hair. And we went down there. We were
2:12:48there on a mission, like a a pilgrimage
2:12:50together, and this was many years ago.
2:12:52And I said, we were staying at our hotel
2:12:53and I said like, "Hey, I'm going to go
2:12:55into the old city. I'm going to go to
2:12:56the holy supplr where Jesus's tomb is.
2:12:58I'm going to go pray." It was later at
2:12:59night. And she's like, "Don't go walking
2:13:01in the city by yourself. Like, that's
2:13:03dangerous. Like, I should go with you.
2:13:05Like, make sure you're not by yourself."
2:13:06And then we're walking into the city and
2:13:08like people are looking at us and
2:13:09talking and like this like little gang
2:13:11of street kids like following us and
2:13:13she's like what's happening and I'm like
2:13:15one of us looks like we don't belong
2:13:17here. I have an ambiguous ethnicity that
2:13:20allows me to pass for a lot of
2:13:21Mediterranean like when I was there uh
2:13:24there are Muslims that were kind of
2:13:26giving me like sort of a look and I walk
2:13:28by them and I just I just I try to play
2:13:30it cool. I'm just like mahabar. They
2:13:32just go halah hala. And I'm like, man,
2:13:34I'm glad they didn't ask me if I spoke
2:13:36anything [laughter] else. If you go, by
2:13:38the way, don't learn Hebrew. It's not as
2:13:39helpful. Learn Arabic. Way more helpful.
2:13:41But
2:13:41>> [laughter]
2:13:41>> uh but it was nice. Like I walk around
2:13:43and if I have my sunglasses on, it's
2:13:45kind of blend in. Yeah. The Jews think
2:13:46I'm Israeli. People think maybe I'm
2:13:49Palestinian or Muslim. But like my wife
2:13:51blonde hair, blue eyes. So I feel like
2:13:52if you go, well, they'll be like, "Price
2:13:54Crawford, I can't believe it.
2:13:55>> I'm gonna stick out like a sore thumb."
2:13:57>> Oh, but it's but it's it's a awesome
2:14:00>> this idea. I think you see an
2:14:01appreciation of sacraments. the idea
2:14:03that the the immaterial grace God gives
2:14:05us. The the the invisible faith is made
2:14:09visible to us because God gives us the
2:14:12faith in matter because we're made of
2:14:13matter and matter matters. And so it's
2:14:16like there's something else to be able
2:14:17to go there and be like, "This is where
2:14:18my Lord walked. This is where he put his
2:14:20feet into the the Sea of Galilee. This
2:14:23was Peter's house. This was, you know,
2:14:25to be able to really walk along all of
2:14:28this." Uh you know what's funny
2:14:30actually? There's two tombs of Jesus in
2:14:31Jerusalem.
2:14:32>> Interesting.
2:14:33>> I have a video about it on my channel if
2:14:34you ever want to watch it. So there's a
2:14:36tomb. So So here's what happens. So
2:14:38Jesus is um crucified, right? And
2:14:40buried, rose from the dead, and his tomb
2:14:42is there. And his tomb becomes an object
2:14:43of for Christians to go and pray at,
2:14:45right? Like if you live in the first
2:14:46century, you'd be probably praying at
2:14:47Jesus tomb like like, man, this is where
2:14:49Jesus rose from the dead. You want to go
2:14:50and pray there.
2:14:51>> City of Jerusalem is destroyed in AD.70
2:14:54by the Romans. They're like, we're not,
2:14:56you know, there's a Jewish uprising.
2:14:58city gets leveled and it's just outside
2:15:01of the old city. So because it's
2:15:03leveled, the Roman emperor Hadrien
2:15:05doesn't want Christians worshiping
2:15:06there. So he places builds a temple to
2:15:09Jupiter over the site.
2:15:11>> But that marks the site for future
2:15:13Christians to know where it is. Then
2:15:16after con emperor Constantine makes he
2:15:20declares toleration for Christianity in
2:15:23the Roman Empire so the Christians are
2:15:24no longer persecuted.
2:15:26um his mother uh working together they
2:15:30were able to go and recover relics from
2:15:33uh the sites there and eventually they
2:15:36build the church of the holy supplr over
2:15:38the site
2:15:39>> of Jesus's tomb and archaeological digs
2:15:42have shown that where the church of the
2:15:43holy supplr is is it is outside of the
2:15:46old the wall of the old city of
2:15:48Jerusalem because you remember in
2:15:49Hebrews it says Jesus was crucified
2:15:51outside the gates and people would have
2:15:52been buried outside of where all the
2:15:54Jews lived because it's you know you
2:15:55don't want to be around a bunch of dead
2:15:56bodies.
2:15:57>> So there's very very good historical
2:15:59evidence that to me like and I don't
2:16:01believe every saint story that's told to
2:16:02me but to me I'm like wow there's really
2:16:04good historical evidence that this is
2:16:05Jesus's tomb.
2:16:06>> This is the site. So when you go there
2:16:08it's this massive huge building like the
2:16:10tomb is this chapel almost like as big
2:16:13as like big as a studio.
2:16:15>> Yeah.
2:16:15>> Inside of a even gigantic church. Wow.
2:16:18It's huge. And so you go and the church
2:16:20is shared by four Orthodox churches and
2:16:23the Catholic Franciscans. So they have
2:16:26the site and it feels very Catholic and
2:16:28Orthodox. Yeah. So for many Protestants,
2:16:30it's kind of off-putting.
2:16:31>> So in like the 19th century,
2:16:34Protestants, there are some people who
2:16:36claim there was this garden tomb with a
2:16:39hole in the rock that looked like a
2:16:41skull. And they're like, "This was
2:16:42really where Jesus was buried." And it's
2:16:44it's and it looks like the tomb you'd
2:16:46see in a coloring book, like kids
2:16:48coloring book. It's very pristine, very
2:16:50quiet, trees, garden, the rock looks
2:16:53like the skull, and there's the tomb. It
2:16:55looks like a story book come to life.
2:16:56But modern archa modern archaeology has
2:16:59shown no the the ancient sistern there
2:17:02would not have had that skull face.
2:17:04There's and even they who own the site
2:17:05they don't make the claim this is really
2:17:07Jesus's tomb.
2:17:08>> But a lot of Protestants go there
2:17:09because it doesn't have because Jesus
2:17:11the site of Jesus's tomb was preserved
2:17:13for thousands of years has a lot of
2:17:15Catholic and Orthodox incense icons
2:17:19candles very sacramental. The masses
2:17:22mass is celebrated. I when I was there
2:17:24on a pilgrimage, I got to celebrate. I
2:17:26attended mass on Easter morning right by
2:17:29the outside of the tomb.
2:17:31>> Wow.
2:17:31>> The tomb is very small. You go in, it's
2:17:33like you're kind of huddled in there and
2:17:34you can just like bend over and I put
2:17:36that on the slab where Jesus was buried.
2:17:38But you go
2:17:39>> and it was it was really cool. I was the
2:17:41only person from my group who went. I
2:17:42went at 5 in the morning to get a seat
2:17:44and I was going through the city and it
2:17:45felt like, you know, the women going to
2:17:47the tomb. It's still dark out. It's
2:17:48Easter morning. I just like felt the
2:17:50Holy Spirit. I'm like, "Oh, wow." And
2:17:52then I go and like a bunch of people are
2:17:54there and the the the bishop, we call
2:17:56him the patriarch, the Latin patriarch,
2:17:59>> celebrated the mass in Latin for
2:18:01everyone who was there.
2:18:02>> The funniest thing though, the Orthodox,
2:18:04they're one week behind in the calendar.
2:18:07>> So, you know, they have a different
2:18:08calendar than us. So, they were doing
2:18:09Palm Sunday in the back of the tomb.
2:18:11>> Whoa.
2:18:12>> And they and they were being a little
2:18:15annoying. Well, because Catholics and
2:18:17Orthodox, I like to think of it as like
2:18:18I love them because we recognize they
2:18:20have valid sacraments. You know, they
2:18:21have the Eucharist, they have priests.
2:18:24>> I don't even do a lot of Orthodox
2:18:25apologetics. I just want to get the
2:18:26family back together.
2:18:27>> I want to straight up like parent trap.
2:18:29Just like get Pope Leo and the
2:18:31patriarchs, you know, trick them to get
2:18:33together. I'm like, and they really
2:18:35honestly they really seem like way
2:18:36closer together than like like Catholic
2:18:38Orthodox on the internet. It's like, oh
2:18:40man, what do you guys like crazy like
2:18:42anger and like Yeah. Yeah, but like when
2:18:44you look at the patriarchs, it's a lot.
2:18:46So, um, so the problem is though, we're
2:18:50really close. Sometimes when you're
2:18:51close in a family, family members know
2:18:53how to get under your skin.
2:18:54>> Yeah.
2:18:54>> So, I always think of them as like the
2:18:55little brother that just like really
2:18:57wants to get to you. So, when the Latin
2:18:58patriarch got up to give his homaly,
2:19:00they were ringing bells and they're
2:19:02making a ton of noise so he couldn't
2:19:03speak. And Latin patriarch of Jerusalem,
2:19:05he standup guy.
2:19:07>> He actually during the when the hostages
2:19:10during the the after October 7th were
2:19:12being held. Uh-huh.
2:19:13>> Um in Gaza, he offered himself in place
2:19:16of some of the hostages.
2:19:18>> Wow.
2:19:18>> He said like cuz he's he's there he and
2:19:20he's super he's advocating for the
2:19:22Palestinian Christians and for end to
2:19:24unjust war and like he said like look if
2:19:27you're going to keep hostage part of
2:19:28this war I there's kids and women there.
2:19:30I take me. I'll go take their place.
2:19:33They didn't take him up on it but like
2:19:35he's the real deal. And so like when he
2:19:36got up
2:19:37>> and they were doing that he didn't get
2:19:38mad. He just went like
2:19:41he smiled and shrugged his shoulders and
2:19:42he just like sat back down.
2:19:43>> That's cool.
2:19:44>> So, um so yeah. Um when when it calms
2:19:47down over there,
2:19:48>> we'll go we'll bring some other people.
2:19:50>> Man, that'd be fun.
2:19:51>> We'll have a good time, man.
2:19:52>> Thank you for that gift. That's really
2:19:53sweet. Thank you. I got a couple more
2:19:55questions. And so the veneration of the
2:19:59saints.
2:19:59>> Mhm.
2:20:00>> Something I and it's not that I my my
2:20:04quote unquote issue with the praying to
2:20:07the saints isn't necessarily asking the
2:20:09saints to pray for me. It's more so of
2:20:12like why would I do it if Jesus is
2:20:14already the bridge?
2:20:15>> Sure.
2:20:15>> You know what I'm just like and I I
2:20:18actually feel like that's a that's a
2:20:20pretty tolerable stance. It's I'm not
2:20:22like necessarily dogging it. I'm just
2:20:24like
2:20:24>> if if Jesus was already the bridge to
2:20:26the father Yeah. and I can pray directly
2:20:28to him and why why wouldn't I just keep
2:20:29praying to him rather than asking the
2:20:31saints to pray for me
2:20:32>> for the same reason that I would ask
2:20:34when something bad happens in a
2:20:37Protestant church. I remember a story
2:20:39about there was this um Protestant
2:20:41gathering and they were they were doing
2:20:43a pool party and this 5-year-old boy he
2:20:46falls in the pool and they find him and
2:20:47he's not breathing and they take him you
2:20:49know in the ambulance and they're not
2:20:51sure if he's going to make it and like
2:20:53all of them were just like sending texts
2:20:55and emails and they're saying like we
2:20:57need to storm the gates of heaven with
2:20:58our prayers and they're asking everybody
2:21:01that they can pray for this little boy.
2:21:03Come on people we got to we got to storm
2:21:05the gates of heaven with our prayers.
2:21:07Why do we have to storm the gates if
2:21:09Jesus already opened them?
2:21:11>> But I think deep down it's because we
2:21:13know that we are we are not just
2:21:16individuals. We are me we are truly
2:21:18members of the body of Christ. And so to
2:21:21be members of the body of Christ, it's
2:21:22like we're connected to each other. It's
2:21:25like there's a difference between
2:21:27um like an an organic collection and an
2:21:30aggregate.
2:21:31>> Like I think a lot of people say, "Oh,
2:21:32we're part we're part of the body of
2:21:33Christ." In the same way that like a
2:21:35bunch of bottles in a bag at the store
2:21:37are part of one bag. It's like they're
2:21:39just all sitting next to each other, but
2:21:41they're not really connected.
2:21:43>> That's an aggregate.
2:21:44>> But like my body parts are not just
2:21:46happen to be next to each other.
2:21:47>> Yeah.
2:21:48>> Like my heart is connected to my lungs,
2:21:49connected to my brain. All of the parts
2:21:51are connected to each other. They really
2:21:53impact each other. They do affect each
2:21:55other. That's why Paul says that uh when
2:21:58you know when one part of the body
2:22:00rejoices, all parts of the body rejoice.
2:22:01When one suffers, we all suffer.
2:22:03>> Yeah. uh so to say that God because he
2:22:05loves us and wants to save not just as
2:22:08individuals but he wants to bring the
2:22:09whole church to salvation. In Paul's
2:22:11letters he talks about the church being
2:22:13brought to salvation. There's a lot more
2:22:14language about corporal salvation the
2:22:17church being saved than just you or I
2:22:20the individual being saved. And so in
2:22:23seeing that then oh because we really
2:22:25are connected God loves us and he
2:22:28dignifies our requests to one another to
2:22:31another you know Lord pray for Bryce
2:22:33that um you can help him to come to the
2:22:36knowledge of truth and these doctrinal
2:22:37questions he's really um you know
2:22:40struggling with and you'd probably be
2:22:41like man thanks for thank you
2:22:42>> for like praying for me it's like
2:22:44because I care.
2:22:44>> Yeah. And so what I would say is like,
2:22:46okay,
2:22:47I would say that that the body of Christ
2:22:49then what I love also is because Jesus
2:22:51is the bridge, right? I would say like
2:22:53he's not just the bridge, he is like the
2:22:56the hitman of death.
2:22:57>> Like I love in Revelation 18, Jesus
2:23:00>> I like that slang. That's cool.
2:23:01>> I'm going to see it on his shirt soon.
2:23:04>> Hitman of death.
2:23:05>> I like that.
2:23:05>> Yeah, because it's like he says in in
2:23:07the book of Revelation, Revelation, I
2:23:08say it's 11:18, he says, um, I once was
2:23:11dead and now I'm alive. I am the alpha
2:23:12and omega. I once was dead and now I'm
2:23:14alive. I'm alive forever more. I hold
2:23:16the keys
2:23:17>> to death in Hades.
2:23:18>> I hold the keys to death in Hades. That
2:23:20Jesus death didn't kill Jesus. Jesus
2:23:23killed death.
2:23:24>> Yeah.
2:23:24>> And so that gives us hope that like if
2:23:27someone is in heaven, if they've died
2:23:28and their soul goes to be with Jesus in
2:23:30heaven, they're more they're not dead. I
2:23:32mean, their soul is away from their
2:23:34body, but we would say they're more
2:23:36alive in Christ now than I am here on
2:23:39earth.
2:23:39>> Yeah.
2:23:40>> They're with him. And so James fives and
2:23:43James and also we have to remember like
2:23:44the the reason like well why you know
2:23:46why this such a big deal? Well because
2:23:49heaven is not egalitarian. We oftenimes
2:23:52think everybody's got to be treated as
2:23:54equals but like James 5 says that the
2:23:56prayers of righteous people are very
2:23:58powerful.
2:23:59>> Some people's prayers are more
2:24:00efficacious because they're more united
2:24:02to Christ. And so like in heaven that's
2:24:04why it's like you know what does I go to
2:24:06heaven anyways. What does it matter if I
2:24:07do here? Well, look, your happiness,
2:24:09your ability to receive God in heaven
2:24:11will be proportionate to how much you've
2:24:13received God here. So, it's like the
2:24:16more you've magnified your soul here in
2:24:17this life to receive God, the more
2:24:19you'll be able to do in heaven. We'll
2:24:20still have infinite, all of us will
2:24:22still have infinite happiness, but it'll
2:24:24be like I can, you know, analogy, don't
2:24:26take it literally. It's like on the
2:24:28first day I one unit of the beatotific
2:24:31vision with God, but this saint, it's
2:24:33five units, then it's two, then it's 10,
2:24:35then it's three, then it's 20. You know,
2:24:37if you look at an infinite series, it's
2:24:39this it's both infinity, but one's still
2:24:41bigger.
2:24:42>> So, [clears throat] I would say that the
2:24:44saints then we can say, look, the
2:24:46prayers of righteous people are very
2:24:47powerful. And Hebrews 12 says that the
2:24:50that the saints in heaven are the
2:24:52spirits of just men made perfect. And
2:24:55so, whose prayer is going to be more
2:24:57powerful than them? Just to say, you
2:24:59know, pray for me, you know, to and to
2:25:02ask them. And I and and I get that
2:25:03Catholics can go overboard with that.
2:25:05Just like with anything, you can go
2:25:06overboard. Like people can, you know,
2:25:08people can treat the Bible like a
2:25:09superstitious artifact, flip to a random
2:25:10page for guidance. People can become
2:25:12superstitious with the saints, but it
2:25:14doesn't nullify the basic principle that
2:25:16we are one body in Christ and we can ask
2:25:18you to pray for us, but especially those
2:25:20who are closely united to God. There's a
2:25:22special communion there and asking them
2:25:24for their prayers to bond everyone
2:25:26together. Just as I would know, like if
2:25:27I drop dead after this interview, I pray
2:25:30for my kids and my wife every day. pray
2:25:32my wife, you know, is healed from um the
2:25:34the brain cancer surgery she did last
2:25:36month. If I drop dead tomorrow, I'm
2:25:38still going to be praying for that stuff
2:25:40>> and they and you know, and I asked them
2:25:42to pray for me.
2:25:43>> Well, I guess the thing that rub I don't
2:25:44want to say like rub me the wrong way
2:25:46because I want to be be careful how I
2:25:47talk and
2:25:48>> be honest.
2:25:49>> Yeah. Okay. Well, yeah. I mean, it did
2:25:50rub me the wrong way. I I went to Mexico
2:25:53uh two years ago. Mexico City. Went to
2:25:55this beautiful Catholic church in Mexico
2:25:58City. Yeah.
2:25:58>> And I went in there and they had statues
2:26:00of the saints in there.
2:26:02>> Yeah.
2:26:02>> And one thing that I just did not
2:26:04understand and I think where the
2:26:06misconception of people are like, "Oh,
2:26:08praying to the saints is idol worship.
2:26:09I'm not I I said that loosely years ago
2:26:12and now through understanding I'm like,
2:26:14okay, that's not necessarily what what
2:26:15you guys mean." Yeah. But when I'm in
2:26:17this Catholic church, there are these
2:26:22desperate Mexican families who go up to
2:26:26I believe it's St. Peter,
2:26:28>> the statue, and they're writing like
2:26:31prayer requests for healing on these
2:26:33like wristbands.
2:26:35>> I've got this diagnosis. I've got this
2:26:37diagnosis. And they're hanging them on
2:26:40St. Peter,
2:26:41>> right? And they're praying to Peter in
2:26:45that moment for the healing,
2:26:48>> right?
2:26:48>> And and I was in there for a while just
2:26:52trying to watch and understand.
2:26:54And
2:26:56you know, I it I I it just didn't make
2:26:59sense to me, you know. I And it and it
2:27:00rubbed me weird because I'm like, why
2:27:02are they kneeling before the statue of
2:27:05St. Peter? They're writing this healing
2:27:06stuff on him. They're hanging it on him.
2:27:08They're kneeling before him and they're
2:27:09praying,
2:27:10>> right? It just it it it it did rub me
2:27:12the wrong way and I I just didn't
2:27:13understand.
2:27:14>> Yeah. There's a few issues that come up
2:27:17with with this. Uh first, I think
2:27:19there's cultural context like when you
2:27:21look in Latin America, especially in
2:27:22countries like the Philippines, where
2:27:25there is a stronger sense of when you
2:27:27have a especially when you have a
2:27:29conflict with someone, you don't go
2:27:30directly to the person you have a
2:27:32conflict with. You seek a mediator,
2:27:33usually a family member. So part of that
2:27:35is is a cultural institution where we
2:27:38might not understand that as much
2:27:39because we have a culture more of you
2:27:40can just go straight to the person you
2:27:41have beef with. If God if I have a
2:27:43problem with God I'm just going to go to
2:27:44God. I'm sorry. Forgive me Lord for my
2:27:46sins. So that can be more of like a
2:27:47cultural artifact um of wanting to seek
2:27:51other mediators. And sometimes it can
2:27:53become superstitious if it forgets that
2:27:55Christ is our one mediator of redemption
2:27:57and that other mediation is only
2:27:59possible through him. Mhm. Uh, another
2:28:01point I would raise though is that in
2:28:04seeing this this emotional plea to ask
2:28:07St. Peter to pray for some to for a
2:28:10person's health. I mean, it's it's
2:28:13different but also similar to the
2:28:14emotional pleasure
2:28:17of asking people to pray for my son.
2:28:19He's going to the hospital. is like
2:28:20people like be tears like please pray
2:28:22for him like you know you know I I know
2:28:24there's difference but there's a
2:28:26similarity there too of like be getting
2:28:28emotional asking a fellow Christian to
2:28:30pray for you when you're in your time of
2:28:32need and still feeling like oh I all
2:28:34these prayers really would be helpful
2:28:36different but there's a similarity still
2:28:38to catch on to that um I think the other
2:28:41thing to mention with that is that yeah
2:28:44it becomes superstitious if the person
2:28:46thinks the saint on his own power can
2:28:48can grant something uh similar to people
2:28:51I mean you did the interview with
2:28:52Kenneth Copeland before similar to
2:28:53people who take the Bible and think if I
2:28:55just read this verse I'm going to have
2:28:56health and wealth like the Bible which
2:28:58should point them to Christ became an
2:29:00idol for them
2:29:02>> a magical artifact I would say you can
2:29:05if that abuse doesn't disqualify using
2:29:08the Bible correctly uh the same is true
2:29:10for people who abuse seeking the
2:29:12intercession of the saints in ter in in
2:29:15in in that kind of a way
2:29:17>> I think also I would say when we discuss
2:29:20this issue we have to define our terms.
2:29:22>> Mhm.
2:29:23>> So like a guy would ask you what do you
2:29:24mean by the word prey?
2:29:27>> Yeah. So so basically what I observed in
2:29:30and and and I'm talking particularly to
2:29:32this scenario in Mexico City. What I
2:29:34observed were these people were writing
2:29:36and I had asked our guide I was like
2:29:37what is going on in here? So just for
2:29:40even clarity they were writing like I
2:29:42remember this one lady had cancer
2:29:45>> and she wrote like I want healing for
2:29:47cancer. Yeah. on this wristband. Hung it
2:29:50on St. Peter. It was like a statue of
2:29:51St. Peter. And there's tons of them
2:29:53hanging off of him. Hangs hangs hers on
2:29:55there. Knee before this statue of St.
2:29:59Peter. And I'm not going to be the one.
2:30:00Oh, she was praying to Peter. But begins
2:30:02to pray.
2:30:02>> Well, well, I think what will happen
2:30:04here is it's that word pray that is
2:30:07going to muddy our conversation a
2:30:08little. Um, because we have to define
2:30:10it. The word prayer originally comes
2:30:14from the Latin word pare and all it the
2:30:18word just meant to ask or request.
2:30:21>> So hund a few you know centuries ago
2:30:24well not even that like honestly even if
2:30:26you look at the works of Jane Austin so
2:30:28you look at literature from like the
2:30:291700s the 1800s 1600 1700s people would
2:30:33say stuff like oh I pray thee tell what
2:30:36what is to to do with Mr. RC or you know
2:30:39whatever that might be. Uh the word pray
2:30:42it was a synonym for ask. So you could
2:30:46pray to God, you could pray to a
2:30:48magistrate, you could pray to a friend.
2:30:49I I pray that you do this. My prayer is
2:30:52that it's it was a neutral word. It just
2:30:54mean request.
2:30:56But more the word prayer came to have a
2:30:58definition that I would say I think for
2:31:00modern Protestants would say prayer like
2:31:02noun period prayer. um speaking to God
2:31:08and asking him to do something.
2:31:10>> Sure. That's what I was meaning when I
2:31:12was saying that. So,
2:31:13>> sure. So, by that definition though, I
2:31:14would say, "Oh, well, they're not
2:31:15praying because they're not she's not
2:31:17talking to God. She's talking to St.
2:31:18Peter. It can't possibly be prayer."
2:31:20>> You might say, "Okay, fine. Prayer noun
2:31:22period is
2:31:24>> um thinking in your mind a request that
2:31:28someone else will fulfill." I think
2:31:30that's literally what now because people
2:31:31will think, "Oh, well, only, you know,
2:31:33only God could do that." But who knows
2:31:34when they figure out Meta and Tesla and
2:31:37they hook things up to our brain. We
2:31:39might be able to think requests and
2:31:41other people are sent to them. Like
2:31:43that's not that far away from us with
2:31:45technology, you know, we put something
2:31:46in we could think something and it makes
2:31:48a request to an app or to other people.
2:31:51But once again, asking whether you
2:31:52verbalize it, whether you use sign
2:31:54language, whether you just think a
2:31:56thought and your brain is like read and
2:31:58uh that's just making a request. Mhm.
2:32:01>> So it's like do Catholics pray to
2:32:03saints? Not if what you mean by prayer
2:32:06is asking things only God should do. The
2:32:10answer is no.
2:32:11>> We don't you know we don't ask St. St.
2:32:12Peter uh save me from my sins.
2:32:14>> Yeah.
2:32:15>> But if you mean just asking making a
2:32:17request you know for for uh help for
2:32:21alleviation of burdens. Yeah. Yes. Just
2:32:24like other people would ask that.
2:32:26Finally, I I would say also as for a
2:32:28Protestant, I would say, well, look,
2:32:30should Christians have the freedom to
2:32:33pray as they see fit as long as it
2:32:35doesn't contradict scripture? And I
2:32:37would say, you know, scripture doesn't
2:32:39contradict this. Uh, so why can't
2:32:42Christians pray as they feel right if it
2:32:44doesn't contradict the Bible? They might
2:32:46say, oh, well, the Bible says not to do
2:32:48necromancy. Don't talk to the dead. But
2:32:50those rules in the Old Testament refer
2:32:53to what the necromancy there is
2:32:55referring to two-way communication. It's
2:32:57referring to summoning the dead to get
2:32:59information out of them. Like what Saul
2:33:01did with the witch of Endor in 1st
2:33:02Samuel 23. Uh he went to summon he used
2:33:05the witch to summon the the the spirit
2:33:08of the prophet Samuel who had died. Um
2:33:11that would be wrong. But it's not always
2:33:12wrong to talk to a dead person. I'll
2:33:14give you a prime example. On the mount
2:33:16of transfiguration, Jesus spoke to
2:33:18Jesus, a living man like you or I, spoke
2:33:20to Moses. And Moses had been dead for
2:33:23centuries.
2:33:23>> I I I get what you mean by that
2:33:25phraseology, but I feel like I feel like
2:33:26that could be like a little misleading
2:33:27for like someone like like Mexicans who
2:33:30celebrate LDA deos muertos. Like I feel
2:33:32like that
2:33:32>> well that's just the day that's just
2:33:34honoring the the day of the dead is just
2:33:36a recognition that we ought to pray for
2:33:40those Christians who have died before us
2:33:41just as we would pray for people in this
2:33:44life to grow in holiness. Like Lord I
2:33:46pray that Bryce will continue to walk in
2:33:48the faith and that you will sanctify him
2:33:50and help him grow closer to you. We
2:33:51would say look there are people when
2:33:53they this gets into purgatory a bit. We
2:33:55would say, look, if you die before
2:33:57you're fully purified from being
2:34:00attached to sin, God will purify you of
2:34:02that later. So we just as we pray for
2:34:04someone's sanctification in this life,
2:34:06we pray for those who God is sanctifying
2:34:08after death who might have been attached
2:34:10to sin when they did die. So it's just a
2:34:12memory of the dead. This idea that every
2:34:16Christian who dies immediately goes to
2:34:17heaven. It's not in scripture. It
2:34:20doesn't say that that that's true for
2:34:22martyrs. In scripture and the early
2:34:24church, it was clear that martyrs
2:34:26immediately go to heaven. But it never
2:34:29says that. And the early Christians like
2:34:31the very earliest prayers that we find
2:34:32like in the catacombs are things like um
2:34:36Petro and Paulos preore primos a sinner.
2:34:41Peter and Paul pray for primos a sinner.
2:34:44Like then this is this is early second
2:34:46third like our earliest archaeological
2:34:48inscriptions from Christians. Um, so
2:34:51when you mention that, yes, are there
2:34:53Mexican traditions like um Santa,
2:34:57there's like Santa Muerte, which is like
2:34:59this like kind of like demonic figure.
2:35:01Yeah, that's a no no. But Dia deos
2:35:03Muerto is understanding that we we pray
2:35:05for those who have died, we remember the
2:35:07dead.
2:35:07>> We pray for them. And that's also what's
2:35:09I love about Catholicism is like when
2:35:11someone dies, we have this this deep
2:35:12yearning to still care for them. And so
2:35:15we we still pray for them that they uh
2:35:18they're now on the we pray for them
2:35:19knowing that um our prayers are really
2:35:23are efficacious. I'll give you a weird
2:35:24sci-fi example. Um it's like we can pray
2:35:28you can pray for anything where God
2:35:30hasn't made his will obvious.
2:35:32>> So for example, I can't pray like you
2:35:35can't pray that Charlie Kirk would not
2:35:37be assassinated.
2:35:39God's will is obvious. It happened. The
2:35:40past doesn't change. But you could pray
2:35:42that his soul was in a state of grace.
2:35:44So he's fully prepared to be received
2:35:46into heaven that he was fully sanctified
2:35:48and pray for him that he was you know or
2:35:51you could pick anybody who was like
2:35:53killed for example. You could pray that
2:35:55God because he's outside of time he can
2:35:58apply our prayers for the state of
2:36:00someone's soul in the past even though
2:36:01we make them in the future
2:36:03>> because God sees all moments of time at
2:36:05at once.
2:36:06>> Wild stuff man. Thank you for joining me
2:36:08and having conversation of course
2:36:10>> it was super fun. And I'd love for you
2:36:11to pray for me and everyone watching and
2:36:13listening to kind of close us out.
2:36:14>> I will do that. Name of the father and
2:36:16the son and the holy spirit. Amen. Lord
2:36:18Jesus Christ and the living God. We give
2:36:20you thanks and praise. Uh we I thank you
2:36:22so much Lord for this conversation with
2:36:23Christ. I pray for everyone who is
2:36:26listening. Um that you will bless them.
2:36:28Uh help them to know that they are
2:36:30loved. If they don't believe in God or
2:36:32don't believe in you, Lord, um just open
2:36:35their hearts. Uh use any of the words
2:36:37that we have said. humble servants of
2:36:38you who are not worthy. Use the words
2:36:40that we've said just to bring others to
2:36:43you. I I pray that you bless Bryce and
2:36:45everything he's doing to help lead
2:36:47people closer to you and uh just to
2:36:50provide him protection and safety and
2:36:53just continue to bless those who are
2:36:54eagerly seeking after you. And we offer
2:36:57all of this up through Christ our Lord.
2:36:58In the name of the Father and the Son
2:37:00and the Holy Spirit. Amen. Amen.

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