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Империи прошлого и настоящего: почему мы до сих пор их строим? Историк Кирилл Назаренко — Transcript

by Влад Аганов · 12,545 words · 2,149 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00Men have become the main bearers of
0:01nationalism. It would be
0:03>> nice if we had an emperor again.
0:05>> All people are not equal. They are all
0:07built in a pyramid. Let's abolish Rurik
0:08and say he never existed. A
0:10>> historical dead end. A
0:11>> nuclear bomb is too great a temptation
0:13to pass up.
0:14>> If a person wants to move around outside
0:16of Russia,
0:17>> they can want whatever they want. They
0:19need to either remember that we breathe
0:21freely, or strangle someone. Let's
0:23slaughter everyone who speaks the wrong
0:25language.
0:26>> Can we say you have an imperialist view
0:28of things?
0:28>> Capitalism. Equally nationalism. The SVO
0:31fits perfectly into the logic of this
0:33civil conflict.
0:34>> What do new territories gain and what do
0:36they lose? It's
0:36>> much better to pay high taxes than to
0:39end up in a war zone.
0:40>> How did it happen that we now have both
0:42high taxes and military action? And yet
0:44, our GDP is a
0:46>> feature, not a bug. An empire has one
0:48capital, a very important one. That is
0:50fear. And fear is respect. Our goal is
0:53to increase the oligarchs 'wealth
0:55tenfold. Do
0:56>> you think most viewers will agree with
0:58you? Interesting podcast. Interesting
1:02podcast.
1:03>> In general, today I'd like to talk about
1:05imperialism. And I formulated my first
1:08question while driving past Tercentenary
1:11Park. We are in St. Petersburg, and next
1:13to this wonderful place you have three
1:14flags hanging: the flag of the Russian
1:16Federation, the Soviet Union, and the
1:17flag of the Russian Empire. Do you have
1:19an answer: why?
1:21>> Firstly, it's beautiful.
1:23>> My guest is a friend of our channel,
1:25historian Kirill Nazarenko. This time
1:27we'll talk about imperialism. To what
1:29extent is this word applicable to modern
1:31Russia, what is an empire, and why does
1:33this system always lead to wars? And
1:36what does nationalism, inequality, and
1:38the nuclear bomb have to do with it? It
1:39will be very interesting. We'll begin. I
1:42>> remember a famous joke.
1:45But overall, it seems to me that this is
1:48an interesting symbol that quite well
1:50reflects the current state of mind in
1:52our country.
1:54Because we, uh, somehow, apparently, are
1:59coming to accept our history as it is.
2:06Overall, it's a dialectical process and
2:08, of course, ambiguous, but as a
2:11historian, I rather welcome this process
2:14, because attempts to declare one period
2:17of our history wrong and another period
2:20correct are worse than an attempt to
2:22accept history as a whole.
2:26Because if we accept it as a whole,
2:28we're trying to explain it as a process
2:31, because in history, nothing comes out
2:33of nowhere, and no phenomena fall from
2:36the sky.
2:37They all grow out of society.
2:40And if we take the concept of the
2:42continuity of the historical process,
2:45then we'll be forced to explain what's
2:47happening to society, why it changes
2:50from era to era.
2:52In general, this is very difficult to
2:53comprehend.
2:54Human consciousness lags behind reality
2:57in several ways. And, in particular,
3:00consciousness has a very difficult time
3:02perceiving dynamic processes of any kind
3:04, both physical processes and historical
3:06processes.
3:08That's why people tend to take a series
3:11of snapshots, or slices of reality, in
3:14their scientific work, and study these
3:17still photographs of this reality, and
3:20then try to connect them.
3:23Meanwhile, this is an ongoing process,
3:25and everything is constantly changing.
3:27And you and I ourselves will be
3:29different tomorrow than we are today.
3:32But understanding this is extremely
3:34difficult, and we constantly want to
3:35overturn modern realities, modern ideas
3:37, on the past, including the distant
3:39past. But why?
3:41Because we, uh, are accustomed to
3:43looking at things a certain way today.
3:46And we think this is the natural and
3:49correct view.
3:50In fact, every era views the world
3:52around us and itself differently.
3:56And one of the goals of historical
3:57research is to understand how people of
3:59the past viewed themselves and the world
4:01around them.
4:03And they viewed it differently than we
4:04do.
4:06But this is very difficult, it's not
4:07easy.
4:08>> Therefore, the question arises: why
4:10should we, modern people who somehow
4:12interpret ourselves in the reality in
4:14which we find ourselves, look at the
4:16flag of the Russian Empire, which
4:18reminds us of something?
4:21You see, I think that here, well, it's
4:23like any process—I don't know, evolution
4:26, for example—yes, we won't understand
4:28what's happening with the biological
4:31world if we don't study how it developed
4:33.
4:35And, for example, there's, I don't know
4:37, embryology; it's directly related to
4:40the evolution of all life on Earth,
4:42because the embryo repeats the stages of
4:44development, and we won't be able to
4:46navigate today's world at all.
4:50And even less so will any talk of
4:52history's prognostic function if we
4:54don't try to understand how we got to
4:56this point, how we got here.
4:59And if we constantly mistake the
5:01imaginary for the real, because it's not
5:04so easy for a person to penetrate the
5:06essence of things.
5:08Well, in this sense, modern physics is a
5:10very clear example. No one has seen a
5:12quark; you can't touch it with your
5:14hands. Take light, a wave, or a particle
5:16.
5:16You know, when you start studying this
5:18in school, your brain explodes, because
5:20light, well, as we see it with our eyes
5:22—you turn on a light bulb, there's light
5:23, there's a wave, a particle, there's
5:25its speed.
5:27These are things that we can't perceive
5:30, but they are precisely the patterns
5:33upon which everything we can touch is
5:35built.
5:37It's the same in history. That is, we
5:38think we see some kind of reality around
5:40us.
5:41But in reality, it could be an imaginary
5:43reality, and in reality, processes are
5:45unfolding somehow differently. And we
5:46can only understand this by studying how
5:48they developed previously. Couldn't
5:50>> these three flags be a metaphor for
5:52cyclicality?
5:54>> Perhaps, and in general, the East and
5:57the Far East gave rise to the most
6:00powerful medieval concept of history.
6:04This is the Chinese concept of the
6:06mandate of heaven, which is given to a
6:08certain dynasty.
6:10And a dynasty goes through a cycle from
6:12its rise to its fall, and, accordingly,
6:15one cycle replaces another.
6:17No other medieval historiosophy has come
6:20up with anything more complex.
6:24And overall, it's a very, very working
6:26concept.
6:27That is, a whole series of historical
6:29phenomena can be explained through
6:30cyclicality.
6:32But in reality, well, it seems to me
6:33that history is more complex there, and
6:35a spiral would be a more appropriate
6:37metaphor for historical development.
6:40Moreover, a spiral doesn't cut circles
6:42evenly, but rather moves very unevenly.
6:46That is, sometimes this carving goes
6:47steeply along a spiral, sometimes it
6:49seems completely flat. And then, within
6:52this movement, not exactly an upward
6:54movement, but a dip, then a rise. That
6:56is, a spiral with dips and rises. In
6:58reality, everything is even more complex
7:00. This is simply a simplified model, but
7:03a person cannot study anything without
7:05creating simplified models. That is,
7:08this is the only way for our brain to
7:10truly understand, to create a simplified
7:13model of it. We are closing the podcast
7:16. As difficult as it was, I never
7:19thought so. Although there were all
7:21sorts of reasons. Believe me, over the
7:23past seven years, there have been plenty
7:25of them. You see two people in the frame
7:27, sitting and talking all the time. Can
7:29you imagine how many people it takes to
7:31even make that conversation happen? We
7:33have a dedicated person in charge of
7:35sound. Day, hello. And this is
7:37especially important because the podcast
7:39is not only watched, but also listened
7:40to.
7:41There are camera operators, editors,
7:43employees who handle advertising
7:44integration, and someone who
7:45communicates with advertisers.
7:47We even invited dedicated specialists to
7:49set up the lighting and image. And
7:51imagine, the whole team needs to somehow
7:53work together. Yes, we spent a long time
7:55getting used to each other, arguing,
7:57clashing, learning to understand each
7:58other. And even now, we are practically
8:00constantly in touch, because something
8:03is bound to happen, and something has to
8:05be resolved quickly and on the fly. And
8:07here's what I realized while working on
8:09the podcast: you can't build a great
8:11business if everything rests solely on
8:13you. Now I don't have to deal with every
8:16technical issue myself, negotiate with
8:18everyone, and oversee every little
8:20detail.
8:21I can do my job because I know I have a
8:24strong team behind me.
8:26And that's true for any business. When
8:28you have the right people around, you
8:30have the opportunity to focus on
8:31development, not endlessly put out fires
8:33. So look for those you can rely on.
8:37Find people on he.ru. Let's
8:40>> try to study and generally understand
8:42what's meant in terms. The term
8:45imperialism and the words "empire" are
8:49heard too often these days. It would be
8:52nice if we had an emperor again, and so
8:54on.
8:55>> Or, conversely, it would be terrible if
8:57something happened to the empire.
9:00>> Why is this leaking into the information
9:02space again and becoming such a relevant
9:04topic for discussion?
9:06>> Well, you see, empire is beautiful; well
9:07, the word itself is beautiful, right?
9:10And besides, empire in the public
9:11consciousness is often associated with
9:13various beautiful court rituals and
9:15ceremonies.
9:17Well, where would tourists be taken in
9:18St. Petersburg if the Russian Empire
9:20hadn't built the Winter Palace?
9:22There's Petergof, Aranenbaum, Tsarskoye
9:25Selo, and if the Hermitage hadn't
9:27amassed a collection of paintings. Well
9:30, basically, there would be practically
9:32nowhere to go. And so an empire is
9:34beautiful, and it can be perceived
9:36aesthetically. It would truly be
9:39something, well,
9:43worthy of admiration.
9:45But I would start with the fact that the
9:47word "empire" conceals many meanings,
9:49and a person who uses the word "empire"
9:52without clarifying these meanings finds
9:54themselves in, well, a complex cognitive
9:56situation.
9:57Look, firstly, "empire" is used as an
10:00evaluative characteristic.
10:02That is, we can say that, uh, the "evil
10:04empire"—the Soviet Union, for example,
10:06as Reagan once said in the early 1980 s
10:08—that is, an empire is something bad.
10:11There's a space empire, against which
10:13Lux Skywalker and his company are
10:15fighting, Princess Leia...we've seen all
10:17of that.
10:18Although, frankly speaking, already, you
10:21know, in the second half of life, you
10:23sympathize with Darth Vader more than,
10:25uh, the heroes who destroyed this empire
10:27.
10:28Ah, but there's that joke about maturity
10:31coming when you start liking Richelieu
10:33in The Three Musketeers.
10:35Well, I guess so. Which means, of course
10:38, the second thing. The meaning is
10:40positive.
10:41You could say Stalin revived the empire
10:43, turning the Soviet Union into a new
10:45empire.
10:46Well, that's cool. It means it was a
10:48pretty cool imperial state. So, there
10:49are two evaluative characteristics. One
10:51word, but it can be used to either
10:53condemn or praise.
10:54In academic terms, I'd emphasize that
10:57the term "empire" should be used in at
10:59least two meanings, maybe even more.
11:02Well, let's leave two for now.
11:04The first is a large state that formed
11:06in relative antiquity, in the
11:08pre-industrial era.
11:12And the second is the colonial empires
11:14that began to emerge in the industrial
11:16era, the era of imperialism.
11:18And these two empires should never be
11:21confused. Does a large state necessarily
11:24have a territorial basis or not?
11:26>> Yes, it's primarily a territorial basis
11:28. And we observe, starting from ancient
11:30times, a succession of empires.
11:33Well, if we take some classic
11:35Mediterranean ones, there's the Persian
11:37, I don't know, Assyrian Empire, which
11:39conquered from Egypt to modern Iraq, the
11:41Persian Empire, even more so from the
11:43Balkans to modern Afghanistan, the
11:45empire of Alexander the Great, then the
11:47Roman Empire.
11:49No, wait, that's another story. While
11:52we're talking about empires, what's the
11:54common denominator between the empires I
11:56listed? They're all land-based. They're
11:58all very large and land-based. That is,
12:01the role of the navy, the role of
12:03navigation in the construction of these
12:05empires is minimal. It exists, but it's
12:08small. The Mongol Empire, for example,
12:10or the Hun Empire, for example. Well,
12:13there's generally the concept of the
12:14great steppe empires of Eurasia.
12:16They're a little out of our sight, but
12:18there really were many of them.
12:20They were large.
12:23The ancient Chinese state was also an
12:25empire, when it stretched from end to
12:28end, strictly speaking, and the Russian
12:31Empire was also territorial, having
12:33absorbed a vast territory by the 19th
12:36century.
12:39We can talk about the Austrian Empire,
12:41which was built from a conglomerate of
12:43lands ruled by the Austrian Habsburgs.
12:45Also a territorial empire.
12:49And then, but these were all empires
12:51within the framework of, well, some
12:53pre-industrial era, well, you could say
12:56, feudalism, there, with various caveats
12:58.
13:00And they had certain common principles
13:02of governance. What distinguished these
13:05empires?
13:06They could not have existed for long if
13:09they hadn't offered a modus vivendi for
13:12the conquered peoples, that is, a form
13:15of existence that allowed them to
13:18breathe and which even, uh, offered more
13:21advantages than disadvantages.
13:24And what do we mean by that?
13:26It's clear that any feudal society, a
13:29class society, naturally separates the
13:32aristocracy from the common people by a
13:35very clear line.
13:37And any such ancient territorial empire
13:40integrated the aristocracy into its
13:42ruling class.
13:44Of course, feudalism is fundamentally
13:46unequal, that is, it is, in principle,
13:49the absence of the concept of equality.
13:52All people are unequal, they are all
13:53arranged in a pyramid. And it's clear
13:55that the aristocracy of a conquered
13:58people could enter the imperial
13:59aristocracy's pyramid at some level,
14:02let's say, not the highest, for example
14:04, and sometimes even at high levels.
14:07Well, we know better about the Russian
14:09Empire, and also the Russian Tsardom.
14:11All of these could be called empires.
14:14Look at the Tatar aristocracy, well,
14:16which was integrated into the Russian
14:18aristocracy during the already intense
14:20collapse of the Golden Horde in the 10th
14:22-10th centuries.
14:25Well, the Yusupovs and the Feremetyevs,
14:27and they, along with them, were
14:29integrated, and they received their
14:31share of the pie, and they maintained
14:33the integrity of the empire.
14:35Then we can also recall the Georgian
14:37nobility, which was also integrated in
14:39the 10th century.
14:41But another thing is that the Georgian
14:43princes' princely title was not
14:44recognized, because 10%of all Georgian
14:46nobles were princes—there were thousands
14:48of them—but they were recognized as
14:50nobles.
14:51And we can also recall, by the way, the
14:53early stage of the Spanish conquest of
14:55America, when in the 15th century the
14:57colonizers recognized the Native
14:59American aristocracy, the Astecan
15:01aristocracy, for example, and they
15:02recognized them as nobles.
15:04Various processes then occurred in the
15:0615th century, and this changed, but at
15:08first it was integrated. It was an
15:10aristocracy. Take the Mongol Empire, for
15:12example.
15:13Those same Russian princes and warriors
15:15were integrated into the Mongol
15:17aristocracy.
15:19Well, of course, they played a secondary
15:21role, but overall, they got their share
15:24of the pie in this system of relations.
15:28As for the peasants, they were also
15:30integrated, but, of course, into the
15:32ranks of ordinary, simple workers.
15:35And this empire, the Habsburg Empire, is
15:38also a good example, when it
15:42integrated the aristocracy into one
15:43group and integrated the peasantry into
15:45another.
15:47And at the same time, what was the
15:48advantage of any such empire?
15:50The advantage was peace and security.
15:53And immediately, wars—well, civil wars
15:56between formerly independent parts—
15:58ended with the states that now became
16:00parts of the empire.
16:02Good roads were built. As a rule, no
16:04territorial empire can exist without
16:06good roads, or at least a good logistics
16:08system, because there could have been a
16:10story about the Eurasian steppes, where
16:12roads were not built.
16:14Well, there were no Roman roads, but
16:15there were caravan routes, there were
16:17inns, there was security, a system of
16:19wells, there was a postal service.
16:21And it all worked.
16:23And those same Venetians in the 10th
16:25century published special guides on how
16:28to get from Azov, which is located here
16:31on the Don—Tanais, as that city was
16:33called then—to Beijing along the Great
16:36Mongol Empire, and how much to pay for
16:39security, how much to pay at inns—in
16:41other words, it all worked like
16:43clockwork.
16:47And so, merchants also became apologists
16:49for the empire, because they were able
16:52to trade undisturbed.
16:54>> Well, generally speaking, they were
16:55probably the main, one of the main
16:57stakeholders in the fact that they were
16:58the
16:58>> beneficiaries, yes, of this system.
17:01And then, uh, artisans received a bonus
17:04because, excuse me, cities stopped being
17:07plundered, wars ceased, and artisans
17:09could make their goods.
17:12Merchants transported them to the other
17:14end of the empire.
17:16Oh, well, with warriors, things were a
17:18little worse here, because, but, but any
17:20such empire, it channeled the warriors '
17:22energy outward.
17:25And in this sense, the need for constant
17:27expansion was one of the characteristic
17:29features of this ancient empire.
17:31Because the aristocracy is warriors.
17:34Warriors need war and loot. They can't
17:37fight within themselves. Well, will they
17:39fight among themselves, or what? Of
17:41course not. So, they had to be sent
17:43somewhere beyond the borders of this
17:45state to expand its borders. At some
17:47point, a crisis in the empire's
17:49expansion occurred, because for a number
17:51of reasons, it could no longer conquer
17:53other peoples there with the same ease.
17:55Take the Persian Empire, classical
17:57history, for example, which stumbled
17:59upon Greece and got bogged down there.
18:01And then, from Greece, the reverse began
18:04. Philip of Macedon, then Alexander,
18:06sort of conquered the Persian Empire. So
18:08, in fact, the same power emerged,
18:10stretching from the Balkans to Iran to
18:12Afghanistan, only led not by the
18:14Persians, but by the Macedonians.
18:17To summarize your reasoning, for most of
18:20life, well, for the last 3,000 years,
18:22people have existed in empires.
18:27>> And this nation state, which is now,
18:30well, quite often compared to an empire
18:33, is probably a product of the 1900s and
18:361910s.
18:38It's a product of capitalism.
18:39>> Why? Because under feudalism, people
18:42thought of themselves as part of a class
18:44.
18:44>> Yeah.
18:45>> And in this sense, there was no problem
18:47integrating, for example, the Italian
18:49aristocracy or the Czech aristocracy
18:52into the aristocracy of the Habsburg
18:54Empire or the German aristocracy. In the
18:56Russian Empire, there was no problem
18:58integrating the German aristocracy of
19:00the Baltic states into the Russian
19:01aristocracy, or the Swedish aristocracy
19:03, or some Georgian aristocracy, or, I
19:05don't know, the Tatar aristocracy.
19:08They all integrated because they didn't
19:10think of themselves as Germans or Swedes
19:12, or Tatars or Russians, but as nobles
19:15who served the monarch.
19:18And, accordingly, the peasants thought
19:20of themselves as peasants, well, those
19:22who are somewhere at the bottom of this
19:24pyramid, at the bottom of the food chain
19:27.
19:28But back then, peasants were uneducated
19:30, and they thought of the world as a 20
19:32-kilometer radius around their village.
19:35In fact, we see the world the same way.
19:37It's just that for us, a metro station
19:39is a reference point. For every modern
19:41city dweller, the city consists of
19:43several islands, which we know as being
19:46centered around certain metro stations.
19:48And we move between them as if by
19:50zero-transportation. That is, we don't
19:52know what lies between these islands.
19:54Well, as a rule, for a driver there is a
19:56network of roads, and so on, and between
19:58them there is some kind of blank spot.
20:00Ah, but capitalism is advancing.
20:04Uh, well, the Great French Revolution
20:06became such a global reference point, a
20:09barrier that destroys class, that is,
20:11equality is proclaimed.
20:13There is no aristocracy, no peasantry,
20:15no artisans; there are citizens who are
20:17equal. And so society is atomized. Well
20:21, that is, the structure in which this
20:23society was organized is destroyed.
20:25Society needs to be organized into a new
20:27structure. And this is where classes are
20:29replaced by nations.
20:31A national myth arises.
20:34Well, I'm using the word "myth" here not
20:37in the sense of a fairy tale, but in the
20:39sense of a complex of ideas that has
20:42both real, well, reasons, and something
20:44invented.
20:46That is, a national history is
20:48inevitably invented.
20:50That is, history is rewritten to show
20:53how this nation arose.
20:56Some legendary great founding fathers of
20:58this nation inevitably arise. For the
21:01Hungarians, this is truly a classic.
21:03They now have their own name, the era of
21:04the discovery of the homeland, but in
21:06the 19th century, they weren't shy about
21:08it. It was called the era of the
21:09conquest of the homeland, when in the
21:1110th century the Hungarian-Count tribes
21:13came to Pannonia, conquered the Slavs,
21:14and began to live there. In the middle
21:16of Budapest, there's a monument to the
21:18founding fathers of Hungary. These
21:20fantastical, shaggy guys on horses. A
21:23magnificent monument. It's not just an
21:25equestrian monument with one horse, but
21:27a dozen of these leaders on horseback.
21:30It looks great.
21:32Uh, and, uh, the Hungarians began to
21:35perceive these Arpads of the 20th
21:37century as their real ancestors and
21:39predecessors, although everything was
21:41very complicated, in fact.
21:44And in Russia, on this basis, Normanism
21:47and anti-Normanism arose.
21:49That is, this painful trauma arose: how
21:51come we were so clumsy that we couldn't
21:54govern ourselves and summoned some
21:56incomprehensible Rurik from somewhere.
21:59Let's abolish Rurik and say he didn't
22:01exist, or say he was a Slav, or make up
22:03something else about him. And these
22:05contortions of Normanism and
22:06anti-Normanism, they began right in the
22:0819th century in Russia. And in every
22:10country, exactly the same thing happened
22:12.
22:13In France, there was a hell of a
22:15conflict, when in the mid-19th century,
22:17some French historians said that France
22:19was conquered by the Franks, the Germans
22:21, and that the Germans gave birth to the
22:23aristocracy.
22:25And democratic French historians said
22:27that these Franks, well, they
22:29assimilated quickly and not without
22:31pleasure. Well, they're like our quarry
22:33.
22:34And everyone was just a simple French
22:36Gaul, a peasant who tilled this French
22:38land and lived on it since time
22:39immemorial.
22:41So, every country experienced this very
22:44painful upheaval.
22:47You say that the nation state is a
22:50product of capitalism, but in fact, well
22:52, we know this work as imperialism above
22:55, yes, imperialism.
22:57We'll get to the second empire. Wait, we
22:59have to go through all the stages of
23:01development.
23:02>> And in the 19th century, these emerging
23:05nation states began to undermine empires
23:08from within.
23:10These old feudal empires.
23:12And the process actually consisted of
23:15two parts.
23:17Those states that hadn't been able to
23:19unite before the era of capitalism began
23:21to unite.
23:22Germany and Italy are the most striking
23:24example in Europe.
23:26And those states that, uh, fell into the
23:28empires, began trying to break away from
23:30them.
23:33And in this sense, the collapse of the
23:35Austrian Empire in 1918, the collapse of
23:37the Ottoman Empire in 1918, and the
23:38collapse of the Russian Empire in
23:401917-1918—all of these are phenomena of
23:42the same order.
23:44And the fact that the Bolsheviks later
23:46reassembled the Russian Empire on new
23:48foundations is the exception, not the
23:50rule.
23:51So, we might have the idea now that,
23:53well, they broke up a bit, then, well,
23:56stuck together again.
23:58In fact, the vector of history was aimed
24:01at the disintegration of old empires.
24:04And the fate of the Austrian and Ottoman
24:06Empires is the norm.
24:08The fate of the Russian Empire is an
24:10exception because Lenin was able to
24:12devise the right nationalities policy,
24:15and Stalin implemented it, which was
24:17able to return this territory to a
24:19single political space.
24:21And the fact that it survived for
24:24another 70 years after the empires had
24:27seemingly ended is, well, a bonus, a
24:30feature, not a bug.
24:34And, accordingly, returning to this
24:36process of creating national statehood,
24:38the example of Austria is very good for
24:40studying this: those same Czech artisans
24:42, in the 16th century, they spoke
24:44completely fluently, were bilingual, and
24:46spoke Czech at one market, German at
24:48another, and generally had no problems.
24:50Everyone was Catholic, and everyone was
24:52happy with that.
24:57But in the 19th century, this religious
24:59self-identification, this class
25:00self-identification, suddenly became
25:02insufficient, and people began to feel
25:04themselves both Czech and German.
25:06And then Prague arose—which city is that
25:08, Czech or German? And in Prague, excuse
25:10me, 52%of the population was German at
25:11the beginning of the 20th century.
25:13Ethnic, and it was in the middle of the
25:14Czech Republic. Or Tiflis, a city in the
25:17middle of Georgia. Well, Georgian
25:19peasants live all around.
25:21And in the city itself, there are very
25:23few Georgians, just Russian Armenians,
25:25or Baku, a Russian-Armenian city in the
25:27middle of Azerbaijan.
25:29This is very typical of the legacy of
25:31these old empires, when the urban
25:33population was sharply different from
25:35the rural population.
25:37It was much more mobile, drawn into all
25:39these intra-imperial connections,
25:41migrations, and so on.
25:43>> And then a host of bloody
25:45misunderstandings, brawls, and simply
25:48ethnic catastrophes arose.
25:50Because the simplest solution to the
25:53national question immediately arose: "
25:55Let's slaughter everyone who speaks the
25:57wrong language."
25:59This is an excellent method, the final
26:01solution to any national question: kill
26:03everyone.
26:04And in a more or less brutal form, this
26:06process began at the beginning of the
26:0920th century.
26:11And the collapse of the Austrian Empire
26:12, the Ottoman Empire, and the Russian
26:14Empire gave rise to a whole host of
26:16these bloody episodes when they tried to
26:18establish ethnic order.
26:20Through nationalism,
26:22>> through militant nationalism, through
26:24ethnic cleansing, through, well, at best
26:27, the expulsion of an alien population,
26:30and at worst, simply the murder of an
26:32alien population.
26:34And here, school also played a very
26:36important role. A key factor in
26:38nation-building is universal education.
26:42Before the 10th century, there was no
26:44universal education, but now, first of
26:47all, we had elementary schools, where
26:49people were taught some basic things and
26:52at least shown a geographical map. So,
26:54how do we imagine Russia? Well, as a
26:57spot on the map. Well, that's the first
26:59association.
27:00Well, well, our listeners will probably
27:01agree that this is true.
27:04And then this idea begins to be
27:06implemented—well, in France, the idea of
27:09the Pentagon, that is, a pentagon
27:11representing French territory.
27:15And in Britain, people are beginning to
27:17perceive these British Isles as a kind
27:19of space in which they are supposed to
27:22live, and so on.
27:24And what's beyond that, well, that means
27:26, well, not ours and not ours.
27:29By the way, historical maps are being
27:30adjusted.
27:32That is, ancient borders are being
27:33adjusted to fit modern ones, so that no
27:35one will doubt that our land has always
27:37been here.
27:39But in reality, all peoples were
27:41constantly migrating, mixing, separating
27:43, and assimilating.
27:45And overturning a modern ethnic map into
27:47the past is a grave mistake. That is, we
27:50need to examine everything very
27:51carefully.
27:53School and the army are mass
27:55conscription, because in any army
27:57recruited by conscription, through which
28:00the entire young male population is
28:02forced, men generally become the main
28:05bearers of nationalism, because both
28:07primary school and the army were
28:09originally mass for men.
28:13And young men received a boost of this
28:15nationalism, a basic one, at school and
28:16in the army, even if they had no
28:18nationalism whatsoever in their native
28:20village.
28:22And why is territory still one of the
28:24most key and important factors in
28:26building either a national or an
28:28imperial state?
28:29You see, but where will it be?
28:31Humans don't live in a vacuum, they
28:32don't live in an electronic space; they
28:34physically live in physical space.
28:36>> That is, it's simply because it's
28:37convenient.
28:38>> How convenient?
28:39But how will we live, where will we live
28:41, if we don't have territory?
28:44>> On what?
28:45And so, inevitably, the question of
28:48territory arises. At the same time, mass
28:50culture also emerges, which is very
28:52important, also in the 19th century.
28:54That is, before that, there were two
28:55cultures. There is the culture of the
28:58elite, which is international. And often
29:00the elite speak another language, and
29:03this doesn't bother anyone.
29:05Ah, well, in Russia they spoke French,
29:07and in Austria the elite spoke German.
29:09And the same Czech or Hungarian
29:11landowner spoke German, well, with his
29:13aristocrats, and with the common people
29:16he spoke Hungarian or Czech.
29:18And
29:22in England, you know that classic
29:24example: they call animals by
29:26Anglo-Saxon names, like pigs and cows,
29:29and call meat by Old French names,
29:31because pigs were herded by Anglos, and
29:33pig meat was eaten by French aristocrats
29:36.
29:38That's how it still works in their
29:40language.
29:41It's still that way.
29:43And popular culture is also beginning to
29:44take hold, that is, high culture is
29:46beginning to filter down.
29:49Well, let's say, opera became one of the
29:51first elements of popular culture, when
29:53, in Italy, Verdi became a national hero
29:55, and Verdi's operas began to express
29:58the Italian national spirit.
30:01In the nineteenth century, national
30:02operas were appearing everywhere.
30:03Smetona in the Czech Republic, Glinka in
30:05Russia, and so on and so forth. Verdi in
30:07Italy.
30:08And each country had its own national,
30:11uh, opera composer, who expressed these
30:14things through folk melodies, ennobled
30:17and incorporated into operatic
30:19performances.
30:22And opera also presents history in a
30:24popular way, or rather, it tells
30:27historical stories for the masses.
30:30Then, of course, it all becomes more
30:32complex.
30:34School gradually becomes a ten-year
30:35school, the scope of history gradually
30:38increases significantly, television
30:40appears, radio appears, newspapers
30:41appear, people begin to read them, they
30:44perceive certain historical constructs,
30:46and thus nationalism is formed.
30:48And nationalism is inevitable. That is,
30:50it's not like some reptilian being
30:52invented nationalism, implanted it in
30:54the immature minds of humanity, and
30:56humanity went down the wrong path. It's
30:58a natural process. But in parallel, in
31:01the second half of the 19th century, the
31:03process of building new types of empires
31:06began—colonialist empires, empires built
31:09on a different principle, even
31:11technically. That is, this is not the
31:14army of Alexander the Great, which
31:16crossed half of Eurasia on foot. This is
31:18not the cavalry of Genghis Khan, which
31:20galloped in the other direction, half of
31:22Eurasia.
31:24These are ships that sail overseas,
31:26disembark contingents of warriors, and
31:29for some reason these warriors conquer
31:32vast expanses of land overseas.
31:36And why was this possible?
31:38Because the universal steam engine
31:40appeared, and capitalism gains its main
31:42advantage after—or rather, reveals its
31:44advantages after—the appearance of the
31:46universal steam engine, that is, the
31:48steam locomotive, the steamship, and the
31:50steam engine in the factory.
31:53This factory can be built anywhere.
31:56And in just 20-30 years, all the
31:58independent lands in Africa disappear.
32:02All of southeast Asia also becomes a
32:04colony, or at least a semi-colony.
32:07And not only that, the Middle East
32:09becomes a semi-colony.
32:11And the countries of Latin America,
32:13which had only just seemingly escaped
32:15the Spanish colonial empire, also,
32:16therefore, submit to either the United
32:18States or European countries.
32:22And essentially the entire world ends up
32:23divided between about five powers.
32:26Well, of course, there remain the old,
32:28weak colonial powers like Holland and
32:30Portugal, but they aren't being divided
32:33simply because they have patrons.
32:36The powerful Portuguese colonial empire
32:38, along with the Dutch, survived because
32:41the British decided it was better to
32:43keep them in the hands of the weak
32:45Portugal and Holland than to get
32:47involved in a struggle to divide and
32:49redistribute these territories.
32:52If we extrapolate the experience of our
32:55world neighbors to the Russian Empire,
32:58people often say that we have some kind
33:02of special case, some kind of different
33:05civilization.
33:07If you look at it through the eyes of a
33:08historian, was the Russian Empire, in
33:10the classical sense, a real empire, or
33:11was it some kind of non-empire?
33:13>> Well, no, of course, it was an empire. I
33:15generally support the unity of the
33:16historical process. And, in my opinion,
33:19humanity as a whole is moving along a
33:21single, general path. Well, of course,
33:23with its variations, there, fluctuations
33:25, but that's just how people are.
33:27Everyone thinks they're unique.
33:30In fact, if you ask a surgeon about
33:32uniqueness, they'll tell you about yours
33:35.
33:36Everything is in roughly the same place
33:38for everyone.
33:39And the tumor grows in the same place
33:42for everyone. And in this sense, there
33:44are, of course, some differences. There
33:46are blondes, there are brunettes, there
33:48are blue-eyed people, green-eyed people
33:50, there are, I don't know, tall, short,
33:52statured, fat, thin, but, in general,
33:53people are built roughly the same. It's
33:55the same with history.
33:56>> How, for example, was the Russian Empire
33:58different from the Ottoman Empire?
33:59>> Look, the Russian Empire, in fact, was
34:01no different from the Ottoman Empire or
34:03the Austrian Habsburg Empire. Well, it
34:05was simply that it was formed in a
34:08different place, in a slightly worse
34:10climate.
34:13Until the 10th century, it was a classic
34:15pre-industrial empire, a class-based one
34:18, where the aristocracy was integrated
34:21into a single ruling class, where the
34:23peasantry was also integrated into a
34:26single taxable class, where—as is
34:29typical of these ancient empires—the
34:31outlying regions often enjoyed more
34:34preferential treatment than the core of
34:36the empire.
34:39This is because it was easier for the
34:41outskirts to break away.
34:43Well, Moscow, you know, could have
34:44broken away from the Russian Empire,
34:46while Chechnya, for example, could have
34:48done so, or Siberia.
34:51So, naturally, the center bears all the
34:53burdens.
34:54Well, the center is also more developed
34:56, of course, of course. And the
34:58outskirts can receive benefits to
35:00prevent them from fleeing to another
35:02empire. And this is exactly what worked
35:03in the Russian Empire.
35:05But after the abolition of serfdom, the
35:07capitalist era began in Russia, and the
35:09Russian Empire attempted to rebuild on
35:12new foundations. And, in my opinion, the
35:15annexation of Central Asia and the
35:17regime that was established there was an
35:19unsuccessful attempt by the Russian
35:22Empire to cosplay colonial empires—
35:24British, French, and others. And
35:26>> why was it unsuccessful?
35:28>> I'll explain. First, how it looked. It's
35:31just that this distinction needs to be
35:32made very clear.
35:34What's the difference between, say, the
35:36integration of Transcaucasia, for
35:37example, and the integration of Central
35:39Asia?
35:41The difference is that Transcaucasia
35:43quite quickly found itself, well,
35:45equalized in its status with the rest of
35:47the Russian Empire.
35:49That is, the local aristocracy was
35:51incorporated into the Russian
35:53aristocracy; the local taxpayers,
35:54therefore, who were exploited there,
35:56were also included.
35:59But Azerbaijan, for example, had the
36:01advantage that conscription was not
36:02extended to Azerbaijanis because they
36:04were considered insufficiently cultured
36:06, while the Azerbaijani aristocracy
36:08quite readily served in the Russian army
36:10, as guards cavalry.
36:13During World War I, Lieutenant General
36:15Hanna Khichevansky commanded, and he
36:17later also held a certain, well, how
36:19shall I say, favorable position in the
36:21first Azerbaijani republic.
36:24Georgians and Armenians were conscripted
36:26into the Russian army because they were
36:28considered Christians, and this was
36:29considered somewhat normal.
36:32In Central Asia, an attempt was made to
36:34create a society consisting of two
36:36strata that do not merge, as in India.
36:40There are people of color who live by
36:42their own laws, and there are whites who
36:44live by their own laws. A similar
36:46attempt was made in Central Asia, using
36:48the local Central Asian population. Here
36:50we must also remember that Akhiva and
36:51Bukhara were not formally incorporated
36:53into the Russian Empire at all and
36:55became vassals of the Russian Empire.
36:57This is the same mechanism that applied
36:59to the princes in India, because in
37:01British India, approximately two-thirds
37:03of the territory of the administrations
37:05were formally vassal states of the
37:07British Empire with their own rajas.
37:09And only a third was directly ruled by
37:12the British. But she controlled
37:14everything, of course.
37:16There was the Turkestan region, which
37:18was directly governed by the Russian
37:20military administration, not the
37:21civilian one.
37:23Officials reported not to the Ministry
37:25of Internal Affairs, but to the Ministry
37:27of War in Central Asia. And for local
37:30residents, there was a Sharia court,
37:33including for criminal cases. There's an
37:35important distinction here. In the
37:37Russian Empire, each locality had its
37:40own civil law.
37:42But criminal law was uniform everywhere
37:45, except in Central Asia, where locals
37:47had their own criminal law, and the
37:50so-called whites had their own.
37:53But there was a paradox here, because
37:55the Russian Empire was already
37:56multinational. And so a funny story
37:59arose.
38:01A Kazan Tatar, conscripted as a soldier
38:03into the Russian army and sent away, a
38:06Muslim sent to serve in the Turkestan
38:09line battalion, was considered white
38:11from the Russian Empire's perspective
38:14and had to be tried for certain crimes
38:16under the Russian criminal code, even
38:19though he was a Muslim and a Turk.
38:23But a Muslim, a Turk, an Uzbek,
38:27would be considered completely different
38:30.
38:31Although they could probably even
38:32understand each other.
38:34Well, at least they could go to the same
38:36mosque. This couldn't happen in the
38:38British Empire, because a Briton is
38:41either Catholic or Protestant, well, and
38:44white and English-speaking. And a Hindu
38:48is, say, a Hindu, or a Muslim, not white
38:52and not English-speaking. But here, all
38:56of this was somehow mixed up. And the
38:58Russian Empire had a bad time with this
39:01regime of aproporteid. In fact, it was
39:03an apartheid regime. This is what was
39:04later legalized in South Africa in the
39:06second half of the 20th century.
39:08It turned out badly because all the
39:11feudal management practices of the
39:14Russian Empire contradicted this
39:16division.
39:18And the Russian Empire did not go
39:20through the entire path of capitalist
39:21evolution.
39:23If it had undergone radical capitalist
39:25reforms, perhaps it would have become an
39:27empire in the British sense of the word
39:30.
39:31But no, the revolution came, and Central
39:33Asia was reformatted into Union
39:35Republics.
39:37And to some extent—well, this is a lame
39:40analogy—but to some extent, one could
39:43say that this old administrative
39:45principle of integrating all territories
39:47into a single space, characteristic of a
39:50feudal empire, was fundamentally applied
39:53to the Soviet Union at a new level, and
39:55it proved quite successful.
40:00But the other thing is that the attempt
40:02to restore capitalism in the 1990s led
40:05to the entirely logical result of
40:07capitalism equaling nationalism.
40:10And then we have explosions in national
40:13regions, a civil war that began in 1992
40:15and continues to this day in various
40:18regions, sometimes fading, sometimes
40:21flaring up, beginning with the
40:23Georgian-Abkhazian conflict, then the
40:25Transnistrian conflict.
40:28And ending with the Central Asian War,
40:29because the Central Asian War fits
40:31perfectly into the logic of this civil
40:33conflict on the territory of the Soviet
40:34Union.
40:36>> Here's the question about moral
40:38assessment and to what extent it can be
40:40given from the perspective of the
40:42existence of an empire.
40:44What do new territories gain and what do
40:46they lose?
40:47>> You see, I would say that moral
40:48assessment is generally a bad approach,
40:50because each generation has its own
40:51morality.
40:52And you know, well, I would say that
40:55kissing a girl in public, well, the
40:58post-war generation considered it
41:01indecent. There you go. But now it's
41:03already possible. And our morality, it
41:06changes imperceptibly for you and me.
41:08That is, we consider ourselves highly
41:10moral people. Of course, we all believe
41:12that there are some obvious moral
41:14standards. In fact, even in
41:15interpersonal relationships, this is not
41:17obvious, and everything changes.
41:19That is, these standards exist at every
41:21moment, but tomorrow they will be
41:22different, and yesterday they were
41:24different.
41:26Therefore, applying modern moral
41:28standards to any past is a dead end.
41:30It's absurd. It's unscientific.
41:34And we have no right to give a moral
41:36assessment of the past.
41:37And we can only talk about processes.
41:40Well, you know, how can you give a moral
41:41assessment of a volcanic eruption?
41:44Well, absolutely not.
41:46Okay, putting aside the moral imperative
41:47, what about the territories you
41:48mentioned as being nourished, what am I
41:50losing?
41:51What's the logic behind it?
41:53These ancient empires, they keep arising
41:56.
41:57This means they're needed for something
41:59.
42:00Someone needs them in this world.
42:02And, of course, the main advantage of
42:05any large territorial empire was
42:08improved conditions for economic
42:10development, that is, stimulating trade
42:14, stimulating crafts, and even
42:16stimulating agriculture, because
42:19military action ceased, or at least the
42:22scope of such action was reduced.
42:26Moreover, taxes increased significantly
42:28, you could say; the empire was always
42:29fighting somewhere, I don't know, 1,000
42:31kilometers away.
42:33It's much better to pay high taxes than
42:36to end up in a war zone.
42:39Even before the formation of the Great
42:41Empire, small states fought among
42:43themselves, and every peasant risked
42:45ending up in a war zone, facing the
42:48complete devastation of his farm and the
42:50enslavement of himself and his family.
42:53How is it that we now have high taxes
42:55and military action?
42:56>> You see, but they're not everywhere,
42:58really, they're kind of there somewhere
43:00.
43:00>> Well, yes, it's of interest, yes, our
43:02people are of interest, yes, no. That's
43:03why they're felt very weakly in some
43:05places. You know, there's no need to
43:08panic here.
43:09Indeed, well, it's as if most of the
43:11territory of the Russian Federation is
43:13experiencing a very weak impact from the
43:15ongoing military action.
43:17>> Okay, the economic impact, however,
43:19exists. Of course, it exists, but
43:20compare it to the
43:21>> information situation. Now there's
43:23pressure.
43:25>> Of course, we don't live in a world of
43:27pink teddy bears, but compare the
43:29situation of someone sitting in a
43:31basement in a gray zone on the front
43:33line, without water, electricity, and
43:35with drones overhead, and someone
43:37sitting in St. Petersburg—you and I are
43:39sitting here in the studio, there are no
43:42drones flying overhead, there is
43:43electricity, and the water is running.
43:48Uh, and you and I, well, how should I
43:49put it, hope to survive today, that
43:50nothing will explode here, and that
43:52nothing, therefore, will happen.
43:54>> So we've come to a moral assessment of
43:55what's happening, so no,
43:57>> no, this isn't a moral assessment, it's
43:59a sensible assessment that it's better
44:01to live in a large state than in a small
44:04one.
44:05Because a small state can be completely
44:08captured by military action, very easily
44:10, but a large one has its limitations.
44:14-well, in general, this is a general
44:15principle of historical development.
44:18Any large state offers better
44:19opportunities for economic development
44:22than a small one.
44:24Hence the emergence of the European
44:26Union, why did it appear?
44:28Why doesn't little Luxembourg proudly
44:30stand there with customs borders,
44:31meaning, customs barriers on its borders
44:33?
44:35Well, because a large economic space
44:37develops better than a small one.
44:40>> Can we say that you have an
44:41imperialistic view of things?
44:42>> Don't. That's not it, it's a good, how
44:45should I put it, a good joke, a good
44:46play on words.
44:49I like to play with words myself, but
44:51you have to be careful, because, after
44:53all, imperialism is a specific term,
44:55which Lenin gave as five characteristics
44:57of imperialism.
44:59This has to do with colonialism. No, I
45:03believe that a large state is always
45:05better than a small one, because it
45:07gives more, in fact, greater freedom to
45:09its people.
45:12But we're a little inclined here...our
45:15aim has been lost, because the last—
45:17well, maybe not pos, well, in any case,
45:20from 1991 to 2010, relatively speaking—
45:23we had this benefit of visa abolition,
45:25this whole thing about being able to go
45:28anywhere, freedom of movement.
45:31In fact, this has never happened before
45:33. This, well, and, apparently, will not
45:35happen in the foreseeable future.
45:38This is freedom of movement within a
45:40state.
45:42If you have a small state, then you have
45:43a small amount of this freedom, but if
45:45you have a large one, then you have a
45:47lot of freedom. The same goes for
45:48economic activity. If you're a small
45:50Luxembourgian, I
45:51>> didn't quite understand the visa
45:52requirements, but
45:52>> look, no, no, it's very simple. You live
45:55in Russia, right? You can travel the
45:568,000 km from St. Petersburg to
45:58Vladivostok without any problem with a
46:00Russian passport. Yes.
46:02>> Right. But, say, if you live in, well,
46:05let's say, the Czech Republic,
46:08>> which isn't part of the EU
46:12>> and has visa requirements, well, you
46:14need to get a visa to travel to any
46:16country, as it did before 1991.
46:19>> No,
46:19>> before 1991, Czechoslovakia—
46:22>> I mean now, it didn't have one,
46:24>> because it was a short historical period
46:26, ending when all visas were abolished,
46:29and now they're going to reintroduce
46:31them.
46:32Before 1991, there was no visa-free
46:35travel anywhere. Well, almost anywhere.
46:37Those were separate bilateral agreements
46:40.
46:40>> No, well, my point is that you can
46:41travel from the Czech Republic to
46:43various other neighboring countries
46:45without any problem.
46:46>> Now, until 1991, this wasn't possible
46:49without a visa.
46:51>> Yeah, let's say.
46:53And if you live in Luxembourg, which
46:55operates under a visa regime, you have
46:57freedom of movement from your backyard
47:00to your backyard.
47:01>> Well, it's the same here, we just have a
47:03larger territory. That's the
47:04>> point.
47:05>> So,
47:05>> if the territory is large, we can go
47:07further, right?
47:08>> Well, within our own country,
47:09>> of course. And if the country is large,
47:12then we can, or a resident of the United
47:15States can travel 5,000 km from one end
47:18to the other, but a resident of, you
47:20know, Cuba can't, because Cuba is small
47:23. And the economy works exactly the same
47:26way. That is, if you live in Russia, you
47:29can start a business there in Tuva,
47:32breed, I don't know, white camels.
47:35Or you can start one in St. Petersburg,
47:37and you can connect the white camels of
47:39Tuva with some, I don't know,
47:40nanotechnology in St. Petersburg.
47:42>> Now with business and with starting your
47:44own business.
47:46>> Look, you still...I just want to draw
47:48attention to something that people
47:49living in Russia don't pay attention to
47:51, like they don't pay attention to the
47:53air.
47:55A person notices the air when they start
47:57to choke him.
47:59Before that, he doesn't notice the air
48:01around him.
48:01>> Well, why choke him to notice the air?
48:03Because we need to realize the fact that
48:06we breathe freely.
48:07That's it. That is, to realize it, you
48:09need to, well, either think about the
48:10fact that we breathe freely, or choke
48:12the person.
48:13Likewise, to realize the fact that we
48:16move freely around Russia, well
48:18,
48:18>> you also need to either make an
48:20intellectual effort for this, well, or,
48:21how to say it, I don't know, prohibit
48:23people from moving freely.
48:24>> Fine. If a person wants to move around
48:26outside of Russia,
48:27>> look, they can want whatever they want.
48:30I want, I don't know, to fly without a
48:32parachute and wings. But there are
48:35certain opportunities, and our world is
48:37designed in such a way that our
48:40opportunities are limited. And why am I
48:42simply saying all this? To emphasize the
48:44advantage of a large state over a small
48:46one, the fundamental advantages—that is
48:49, any advantages of any large state over
48:51any small one.
48:52>> For now, the only advantage is that it's
48:53much more relaxed and expansive to move
48:55around within one's own country. And the
48:57>> same applies to economic activity.
48:59Economic activity exists because a large
49:01country includes a multitude of regions
49:02, each distinct from the other. There's
49:04a division of labor between them.
49:07We transport, I don't know, some salmon
49:09from the Far East to the European part
49:10of the country.
49:12Or we transport electricity generated by
49:13our hydroelectric power station to the
49:15European part of the country.
49:16>> Meanwhile, our GDP is,
49:18>> well, hello.
49:20Our GDP is also quite good, and we
49:21certainly have problems, but we're not
49:23talking about that, you see.
49:25Then we find ourselves in a situation of
49:28specific problems that any country faces
49:31. The GDP of the United States is also
49:33growing, excuse me, not at a breakneck
49:36pace, to put it mildly. And I'd also
49:38argue about where the GDP is growing
49:39faster: in Russia or in the US right now
49:41.
49:42And the other thing is, any of us, I'm
49:45trying to convey to our listeners that
49:47one of the reasons for the formation of
49:50large ancient empires was the ease of
49:53movement of people and goods within the
49:56country and the reduction of the threat
49:59of war. And this was the mechanism that
50:02constantly gave birth to new empires.
50:04That is, new empires arose to replace
50:06collapsed empires.
50:08Another thing is that within these
50:10empires, there were also contradictions
50:11that led to their collapse.
50:13It wasn't that an empire was created
50:162,000 years ago and existed unchanged
50:18for 2,000 years, but it was constantly
50:21reproducing itself, this empire under
50:23different names and with different
50:25ruling circles at its helm. But that's
50:28ancient history.
50:30And then came the era of capitalism and
50:32imperialism, when colonial empires arose
50:34.
50:35Then we witnessed their collapse.
50:38And now we're witnessing the next stage
50:40of this process, where formally there
50:43are no colonial empires.
50:46Formally, well, there are some tiny
50:48overseas possessions that no longer
50:50constitute colonial empires, but in
50:52reality, there are zones of influence
50:55that are being fought over.
50:58Right now, this is unfolding in the
50:59Sahel. This is one of the regions of
51:02Africa.
51:03It's quite a heated story, where it was
51:06always considered a region of French
51:08influence, and then suddenly, it seems,
51:11local authorities decided that Russia
51:13was a more promising, so to speak,
51:15patron of this region.
51:17And now it's unfolding in Mali, in
51:19Burundi. In this corner of Africa,
51:21there's quite intense competition for
51:24these spheres of influence.
51:26So, essentially, this is the latest form
51:29of existence of such a quasi-colonial
51:32empire. But we need to be careful with
51:35the terminology here, because when I
51:37said "quasi-colonial," I thought I said
51:39it was bad, because colonialism has a
51:41negative connotation.
51:43But let's just try to somehow imagine
51:46this process in neutral terminology.
51:49That is, a kind of struggle for spheres
51:51of influence that is still ongoing today
51:53.
51:54And this struggle may not only be
51:56military.
51:57The dollar economic zone, for example,
52:00is analogous to this quasi-colonial
52:03empire, which continues.
52:06Therefore, well, this is one of the very
52:08important signs of a monopoly.
52:10>> Absolutely right. And there are many
52:12such signs, excuse me, right down to
52:13monopoly standards. That is, if we have
52:16one set of standards, then it is very
52:18difficult for us to adapt equipment
52:20purchased from a zone with other
52:22standards to these standards. And we
52:24find ourselves tied to equipment
52:26produced in countries that are in the
52:29same zone of standards as ours.
52:32Well, I won't even mention spare parts,
52:34because if we buy some planes, we're
52:36tied to the parts manufacturers and the
52:37maintenance of those planes, because we
52:39can't just knock together spare parts
52:41for them.
52:43This is all a manifestation of this
52:45struggle for spheres of influence, which
52:47occurs through various means, including
52:49non-military ones.
52:50A question about military methods. Is it
52:52possible to use the example of
52:54imperialism—well, because, well, in an
52:56empire they say that war is always
52:59logical, meaning that one way or another
53:01, an empire ends up like that?
53:03>> Uh, compare Russia, which is also
53:05currently in this stage, and the United
53:08States, which is somehow making its mark
53:11. How much is that?
53:13>> Look, well, in general, you can compare
53:15anything with anything, but the main
53:16thing is to do it wisely. Because, well
53:19, if you don't have brains, then no
53:21comparison will help. If you have brains
53:24, then it will. We can talk about that.
53:28And I would say that another very
53:30important point is the relative power of
53:33different empires.
53:36That is, we now have, in my opinion, a
53:39curious situation, which began after the
53:42Second World War, which is, well, a
53:45developing situation of the collapse of
53:48colonial empires and the gradual
53:50elimination of these forms of
53:53post-colonial influences.
53:55Well, in various forms.
53:57Some are leaving the dollar zone, others
54:00, I don’t know, are redirecting their
54:02trade flows, financial flows, and so on
54:05.
54:06And today, well, more precisely,
54:08yesterday, or rather, yesterday, at the
54:10turn of the 20th-11th centuries, the
54:12United States was undoubtedly the most
54:15powerful empire. Well, if we use the
54:17word "empire" in the world, and
54:22whose dominance seemed unthreatening.
54:26Well, there was no military force that
54:28could challenge the United States, no
54:31economic force that could, let’s say,
54:33create an alternative to the dollar
54:35economy.
54:36China, for example, traded in dollars,
54:39bought oil there for dollars, sold some
54:41of its goods there for dollars. Russia
54:44was integrated into the dollar economy.
54:46Well, you know, I remember well, an
54:48apartment in St. Petersburg in the early
54:502000s was only measured in dollars. It
54:53wasn't measured in rubles at all. And it
54:55never even occurred to me that you could
54:56buy an apartment for rubles instead of
54:58dollars. Well, because it was all
55:00written outright in the ads how many
55:01dollars everything cost.
55:03>> USD,
55:03>> USD, USD, yes, dead raccoons. And there
55:06was a joke about that, if you remember.
55:08And now we calmly buy apartments there
55:10for rubles, and no one even finds it
55:12strange to do it for dollars anymore,
55:15right?
55:16Oh, I mean, it seemed like the dominance
55:19of the United States was eternal and
55:21unchangeable.
55:23The United States has a branch in the
55:25form of the European Union, which, well
55:28, and NATO, which are mutually
55:29intertwined systems that are part of
55:31them and are, in a way, their branch.
55:35And the rest of the world, which, in one
55:37way or another, adapts to this dominion
55:39.
55:40And now we are seeing the disintegration
55:42of these structures, which have proven
55:44eternal. We are seeing growing
55:46contradictions between the European
55:47Union and the United States, for example
55:49.
55:50We see that Iran has issued a military
55:52challenge to the United States, and Iran
55:54has not been incinerated.
55:57Well, that is to say, it’s the opposite
55:59; it seems to me that for now, it’s
56:01standing pretty strong, and it’s more
56:03likely that Trump doesn’t understand
56:05what to do about it and why people
56:07aren’t afraid of him. What’s also very
56:09important, you see, here’s a crucial
56:11point: an empire has one intangible
56:12asset, a very important one. It’s fear.
56:15And fear is respect. These are equal
56:18things. And if you fear an empire, then
56:22no one fights it. That is, an empire
56:25comes and demands something, and
56:27everything is given to it. Moreover, she
56:30might not even demand it; they'll simply
56:31hand it over to her because they're
56:33afraid.
56:34And as soon as the disappearance of fear
56:37of empire is a sign of an empire's
56:40crisis, it's absolutely unthinkable to
56:43imagine, in the 1990s, Iran, for example
56:46, behaving like this toward the United
56:49States.
56:50Well, Vietnam, of course, it sort of
56:52withstood the American intervention, but
56:54the Soviet Union stood behind it.
56:57It's a powerful player. So, they needed
57:00to lean on some powerful player to
57:02counter another powerful player. And now
57:04it turns out that they can do just that
57:06.
57:07Excuse me, the Yemeni Houthis, who are
57:09basically a non-state entity, they
57:11behave, you know, however they want.
57:14>> What does this tell us?
57:15>> It tells us that these old empires are
57:18disintegrating. Well, in this case, the
57:21American empire, and some new world is
57:23taking its place. A truly multipolar one
57:26.
57:27Don't think it'll be a cozy world,
57:29because one of the perks of empire is
57:32peace.
57:36That is, an empire that suppresses
57:38everyone, that builds everyone up, has
57:41the ability to prevent war.
57:44Well, one of the most peaceful periods
57:46in history, I think, the most peaceful.
57:48It was between 1945 and 1991, because
57:51the Soviet Union and the United States
57:53constantly restrained their, you know,
57:56junior allies, who were trying to bite
57:58each other.
58:00And any conflict between some small
58:02countries was immediately translated
58:04into the plane of Soviet-American
58:06confrontation, put on this global
58:08chessboard. And then these big players,
58:12they began to do things to reduce
58:14everything to, well, some kind of draw,
58:17really. Well, someone won back, for
58:19example, the Soviets won back Cuba from
58:21the Americans, the Americans won back
58:23from us, I don't know, Somalia at some
58:26point.
58:26Uh, and it all happened like that.
58:31And now we're moving toward a world that
58:34, for a time at least, will be filled
58:36with a multitude of independent players
58:38who will also acquire nuclear weapons.
58:41Undoubtedly, this is where things are
58:44headed, because a nuclear bomb is too
58:46tempting to resist.
58:48And
58:51we'll enter a period of turbulence, to
58:55put it mildly, during which some new
58:58configuration of global space will
59:01emerge, but perhaps it
59:06won't include, won't be built on, the
59:09same kind of clear imperial principles
59:12as before.
59:14It's interesting that imperial behavior
59:17and near-imperial actions don't produce
59:20imperial results.
59:22>> You see, yes, of course, because empires
59:24are starting to falter,
59:26>> and rulers who are trying to achieve
59:28something are beginning to realize this
59:30, too.
59:30>> Oh, absolutely. And, you see, there's
59:32another very important point here.
59:35I believe this, but I generally support
59:38a view of history as a progressive,
59:40forward-looking process that actually
59:43leads humanity from unfreedom to freedom
59:46.
59:46But this freedom must be understood
59:48correctly. Freedom is a conscious
59:50necessity. It's not some chaotic,
59:52infinite freedom that a person might
59:55dream of under the influence. No,
59:58freedom is, well, we are not free from
1:00:01the physical world, of course, and never
1:00:03will be. So, well, a person will never
1:00:06be free from immortality. That is,
1:00:08immortality is an illusion. Ah, that's a
1:00:10separate, interesting conversation. By
1:00:12the way, here's a good topic to discuss
1:00:13about immortality. I'm ready. And I
1:00:15think our viewers might also be
1:00:16interested in it
1:00:17>> from the perspective of leaving oneself
1:00:19in history, yes, from the
1:00:20>> perspective of history. No, from the
1:00:21perspective of the fact that death is
1:00:23biologically programmed.
1:00:24>> Yeah.
1:00:25>> That is, death is a prerequisite for
1:00:27evolution.
1:00:27>> Immortality is the cessation of
1:00:29evolution.
1:00:29>> And now gerontologists have discovered
1:00:31that a person doesn't die from disease.
1:00:34There is no bad food for a person. A
1:00:35person dies because he destroys himself
1:00:37.
1:00:38The body activates a self-destruction
1:00:40program at a certain point.
1:00:43And we can slow this program down a bit
1:00:46, but we can't turn it off.
1:00:48And this is to make way for new
1:00:50biological creatures, new generations,
1:00:53which will, therefore, be the bearers of
1:00:55some kind of evolution, either physical
1:00:58or intellectual. Mm-hmm.
1:01:00>> And so, uh, well, okay, let's get back
1:01:03to our sheep.
1:01:05So, we are moving from unfreedom to
1:01:07freedom.
1:01:09And one of the, well, these small trends
1:01:12in the movement towards freedom is, uh,
1:01:15the destruction of these rigid, vertical
1:01:18, pyramidal structures that bind this
1:01:21freedom.
1:01:24Another thing is that, in addition to
1:01:25states, we must not forget about
1:01:27corporations.
1:01:28And corporations will also come to an
1:01:30end over time, I'm sure of it. And don't
1:01:33think that the destruction of the state
1:01:35now will lead to some kind of
1:01:37libertarian anarchocapitalism.
1:01:39No, if we were to destroy the state now
1:01:42—let's just imagine—it would be a
1:01:44dictatorship of corporations, which
1:01:46already own private military companies,
1:01:48which have a full arsenal of tools to
1:01:51replace the state. Isn't that the case
1:01:52>> now?
1:01:54No, we now have a complex interaction
1:01:56between states and corporations. And do
1:01:58>> corporations directly influence the
1:02:00actions of the state? Not always. We
1:02:03have different political structures.
1:02:05For example, we have the United States,
1:02:07where corporations have a more obvious
1:02:09influence on political life.
1:02:11We have Russia or China, where
1:02:13corporations influence—well, how can I
1:02:16say they influence—but I would say that
1:02:19the same intelligence agencies, for
1:02:21example, have a much louder voice in
1:02:23decisions, well, that is, state
1:02:25structures are different, they carry
1:02:28more weight than, well, let's say,
1:02:30there's a state where you first have to
1:02:33become a billionaire and then president
1:02:35.
1:02:36But there's a state where you first
1:02:37become president and then a billionaire
1:02:39.
1:02:40Maybe not, because it doesn't need to.
1:02:43It already satisfies its desire to rule
1:02:46others through the institutions of power
1:02:50.
1:02:50And that's why we now have this very
1:02:53complex interaction between corporations
1:02:56and the state, and it varies in
1:02:58different regions of the world.
1:03:00>> What do you think about this idea?
1:03:02The more successful an empire, the more
1:03:04difficult it is to govern?
1:03:05>> You see, no, I don't think that's true.
1:03:08It's precisely this, if we take the eras
1:03:10of prosperity, the heyday of empires.
1:03:11And heydays, by the way, are always
1:03:13visible after the fact.
1:03:16People who live in the moment never
1:03:18realize that they live in an era of
1:03:20prosperity.
1:03:22They're constantly overwhelmed by their
1:03:24little problems, which later seem global
1:03:26to them, and then a hundred years pass,
1:03:28and everyone realizes that that was the
1:03:30heyday, now everything is bad, and
1:03:32another hundred years will pass.
1:03:35And they say: "Yes, we survived well,
1:03:37and now some kind of nuclear
1:03:38post-apocalypse has arrived." Knock on
1:03:40wood. But so, uh, it's precisely during
1:03:43the heyday of empires that it's quite
1:03:45easy to govern, because they roll along
1:03:47a well-worn rut. In times of crisis, it
1:03:50becomes difficult to manage anything,
1:03:52not just an empire, but anything. But as
1:03:55they said in the famous Pitsakhat ad
1:03:57featuring Gorbachev, there's opportunity
1:04:00, and crisis is opportunity. And that's
1:04:02exactly how it is. And any crisis
1:04:05inevitably brings innovation,
1:04:08opportunity, a step forward.
1:04:11Another thing is that these eras
1:04:13inevitably follow one another. Eras of
1:04:15crisis, eras of stability—they
1:04:17inevitably follow one another.
1:04:19>> And it's foolish to think that crisis
1:04:22will be eternal, or that stability will
1:04:24be eternal.
1:04:26And we—well, I, as a historian, have
1:04:27been fortunate, I would say, to live in
1:04:29an era of instability and crisis.
1:04:31Because, when I consider my own
1:04:34understanding, and that of my colleagues
1:04:37, of the historical process 30 years ago
1:04:39and now, I am amazed at the enormous
1:04:42leap forward that historical science has
1:04:45made in this time, largely a
1:04:47psychological leap forward.
1:04:50That is, an understanding has emerged of
1:04:53how certain processes unfold in this
1:04:56world.
1:04:57>> Regarding your colleague, historian Paul
1:05:00Kennedy, he described a situation
1:05:01related to discussions of empire, how
1:05:03imperial overstress, uh, a state's
1:05:05obligations begin to exceed its economic
1:05:08and military capabilities.
1:05:10Yes, that's what's
1:05:12>> happening here now.
1:05:13>> And what about Russia, you mean? I don't
1:05:16know; we can only assess that
1:05:17post-factum. In general, this is a very
1:05:20important limitation for any historian,
1:05:22who shouldn't cross the line. There's a
1:05:24line between history and political
1:05:26science.
1:05:27But when we talk about the present day,
1:05:30we need different, uh, well, cognitive
1:05:32practices, different, well, you need to
1:05:34train in something else, so that, well,
1:05:37it's not like hockey and football;
1:05:39they're slightly different things.
1:05:42Or, well, or horse polo, say, or water
1:05:45polo.
1:05:47I play on my own field of history, and
1:05:49I'm talking about the past, when we can
1:05:52draw relatively balanced conclusions
1:05:54because we understand more or less where
1:05:57the process has come from, or where it's
1:05:59headed.
1:06:01In any case, the main problem today is
1:06:04that, with the enormous number of
1:06:06ongoing processes and events happening
1:06:09around us, we're missing the forest for
1:06:12the trees.
1:06:15We're unable to say with certainty which
1:06:18events happening today are important,
1:06:20well, in the long run, and which are
1:06:22unimportant.
1:06:24And this is crucial. Whether the empire
1:06:26has overextended itself or not can only
1:06:28be assessed after the fact. The same
1:06:30applies to any political figure.
1:06:33This can only be done after they're dead
1:06:36, because while they're alive, they
1:06:38could end up on St. Helena, you know, or
1:06:41in Muammar Gaddafi's position—you know,
1:06:44always.
1:06:46And when he died, we can already say: "
1:06:48Yes, he, therefore, successfully ruled
1:06:51his state until his death.
1:06:53And we cannot demand more from a person
1:06:55.
1:06:56No person can, so to speak, manage any
1:06:58process beyond his coffin.
1:07:01And if someone still has an influence on
1:07:03the surrounding world after death, but
1:07:05this is an incredible expectation, this
1:07:07is generally some kind of gigantic
1:07:09person, which does not happen often.
1:07:12Therefore, I prefer not to evaluate the
1:07:14actions of currently living rulers,
1:07:15because it may turn out that Trump, you
1:07:17know, looks some kind of inadequate, and
1:07:20then it will turn out that he understood
1:07:22everything there correctly, well, or
1:07:23someone else will turn out to have
1:07:25misunderstood.
1:07:27To summarize our reasoning and, well,
1:07:30some exercises in thinking about the
1:07:34empire, what are the pros and cons of an
1:07:37empire?
1:07:38>> Well, again, I would still like to once
1:07:41again separate the situation of a
1:07:43colonial empire of the 20th century, an
1:07:46ancient empire, but in any case, in any
1:07:48empire, internal peace and stability are
1:07:51the best opportunities for economic
1:07:53development. Because peace and stability
1:07:56are always Better for the economy than
1:07:58war and instability. Well, that's
1:08:01obvious. Uh, and an external war is much
1:08:04better than an internal war. Well, or an
1:08:07internal war is much worse than an
1:08:08external war.
1:08:09But that's when devastation happens
1:08:11right here and now; it's worse than if
1:08:13military actions are waged on some
1:08:15periphery, where the periphery suffers,
1:08:17but the core doesn't.
1:08:20And that's people's mobility.
1:08:24And, let's say, the same colonial
1:08:26empires of the 20th century, despite all
1:08:27the fact that they tried to create a
1:08:28system of apartheid, they unwittingly
1:08:30did what they did.
1:08:32The British built railways in India,
1:08:35built modern factories, Indians began to
1:08:37study at British universities.
1:08:41And as a result, we have Mahatmagandhi,
1:08:44who became a lawyer within the British
1:08:46legal framework, and then became the
1:08:49leader of the struggle for Indian
1:08:51independence, or Nelson Mandela, who,
1:08:53you see, received this education, uh,
1:08:56and used it to fight for the rights of
1:08:58the black population of South Africa.
1:09:03M. So it turns out that these empires,
1:09:06even very bad-looking ones, even very,
1:09:10uh, Well, how can I say it, those who
1:09:13preach inequality, who establish this
1:09:16inequality, they still, how can I say it
1:09:19, move the progress along their path.
1:09:23They still, well, as it was once said,
1:09:25that the proletariat is the gravedigger
1:09:27of capitalism.
1:09:29That is, the colonial empire itself
1:09:31creates that colonial intelligentsia and
1:09:33that colonial, well, let's say,
1:09:35proletariat, which then carries out a
1:09:37national liberation revolution and
1:09:39destroys this colonial empire.
1:09:42Well, what we saw everywhere in colonial
1:09:45empires.
1:09:47And with ancient empires, a somewhat
1:09:49similar process occurs.
1:09:51That is, within these empires, the
1:09:52nuclei of new empires grow.
1:09:55And ancient Rus' formed a centralized
1:09:58Russian state within the Mongol Empire,
1:10:01and then it kind of blew up this Mongol
1:10:05Empire from within.
1:10:07Well, when the empire itself, of course
1:10:09, was already beginning to decline,
1:10:11because when an empire is in its prime,
1:10:12it cannot be blown up from within.
1:10:15>> It is possible Should we say that Russia
1:10:17will never again return to an imperial
1:10:20system?
1:10:21Ah, you see, I think that no country in
1:10:23the world will ever return to the
1:10:24imperial system that existed in the
1:10:26first half of the 20th century. That is
1:10:28, that era is over.
1:10:30And there will be a new era, when a
1:10:32large state, uh, large both in territory
1:10:35and in population, and in the size of
1:10:38their economy and in their military
1:10:41might, they will build around themselves
1:10:43some kind of system of relations, closed
1:10:46in on themselves, but more or less.
1:10:50Which will look new.
1:10:53It will not be a repeat of either the
1:10:55empire of Changis Khan, or the British
1:10:57colonial empire of the early 20th
1:10:59century.
1:11:00It will be some kind of new phenomenon.
1:11:02And it is possible that the model for
1:11:04these new relations is China, which is
1:11:06building, well, we know that the Chinese
1:11:08are penetrating Africa, the Chinese are
1:11:10penetrating there, well, in general, in
1:11:13many places. Perhaps this is some kind
1:11:15of new model of relations, or maybe not
1:11:17. I don’t know. We will see this in
1:11:1950-100 years.
1:11:20>> Uh, if this is a new model of relations
1:11:23, then what is it primarily aimed at? It
1:11:25is aimed at the well-being of the
1:11:27residents within this one. See? It is
1:11:29aimed at...Yes, of course. And, by the
1:11:31way, here's what's interesting.
1:11:33We've now become accustomed to thinking
1:11:36that, uh, improving the well-being of
1:11:38the population is the goal of the state
1:11:41.
1:11:42Yes, this is an idea that appeared some
1:11:44100 years ago.
1:11:47Back in the 10th century, there was no
1:11:50state, no improvement in the well-being
1:11:53of the residents was a goal.
1:11:55There were other goals. But increasing
1:11:57the wealth of the aristocracy, that was
1:11:59a goal. Yes. It's
1:12:00>> not like that now,
1:12:00>> and not anymore. But now, you see, even
1:12:03at the propaganda level, the president
1:12:05can't say on TV:" Our goal is to
1:12:07increase the wealth of the oligarchs by
1:12:1010 times.
1:12:11"No. They say that our goal is, you know
1:12:14, improving the availability of
1:12:16kindergartens, building some housing per
1:12:19capita, increasing pensions, indexing
1:12:22them, increasing, I don't know,
1:12:25>> well, talking about
1:12:26>> consumption is not work. But we still
1:12:28have to do it,
1:12:30>> because it doesn't work.
1:12:33Those, I repeat Once again.
1:12:36Modern humanity has very quickly
1:12:38forgotten what it was like in the 19th
1:12:40century, not to mention the 18th or 17th
1:12:42, when a peasant was simply sheared like
1:12:44a sheep, completely naked, and then he
1:12:46survived on his own as he wished.
1:12:50Now it's a completely different story.
1:12:53And the world has become more connected
1:12:54, the world has become more united, the
1:12:56world has become more permeable to
1:12:57information and everything else.
1:12:59And
1:13:02these new relations, I think, will be
1:13:04built on more mutually beneficial
1:13:06foundations.
1:13:07That is, robbing, well, some African
1:13:10country just like that, like the
1:13:12Belgians did in the Congo, when the
1:13:14Belgians exploited the diamond-bearing
1:13:16regions of the Congo, demanding that
1:13:18every local resident, starting at age 12
1:13:21, I think, bring in a diamond of a
1:13:23certain size every year.
1:13:25And if he didn't bring in this diamond,
1:13:27his right hand was chopped off.
1:13:29This is naked colonial exploitation.
1:13:33That is, now Such a mechanism, well,
1:13:36it's simply impossible.
1:13:39Well, maybe, well, well, I can't even
1:13:41imagine it being even possible anywhere
1:13:43.
1:13:44Now we'll have to hire these residents
1:13:46for money, who will mine diamonds and
1:13:48create some kind of infrastructure.
1:13:50And it's even impossible to completely
1:13:52ruin the ecology there. That is, we need
1:13:54to somehow support this.
1:13:57That is, we are moving along the path of
1:14:00increasingly taking into account the
1:14:02interests of ordinary citizens, even, it
1:14:05would have an impact, in the most
1:14:08backward and godforsaken corners of our
1:14:10planet.
1:14:12And those forms of exploitation that
1:14:14were possible, unbridled there 100 years
1:14:16ago or 50 years ago, are now becoming
1:14:18impossible. Do
1:14:19>> you think most viewers will agree with
1:14:21you?
1:14:22I think so, because, you see, the thing
1:14:25is that the majority, unfortunately, the
1:14:27majority of non-historians have a very
1:14:30short memory, and people tend to
1:14:32perceive as reality only what they
1:14:34themselves have seen in their own little
1:14:37lives.
1:14:38>> And that's normal.
1:14:40>> Yes, but it's like with Physics.
1:14:43We won't be able to construct a
1:14:45corpuscular-wave theory of light if we
1:14:47rely on our organoleptic sensations.
1:14:51We are forced to use devices that show
1:14:54us something. The same is true for
1:14:56historical science.
1:14:58And humanity has so quickly emerged from
1:15:01a situation of constant famine, constant
1:15:04epidemics, and constant monstrous
1:15:06exploitation over the past 80 years that
1:15:09it immediately, as you know, I don't
1:15:12know, like a duck's memory, forgot how
1:15:15it was. I'm
1:15:17>> even curious what you think about this?
1:15:20Be sure to write us a comment, telling
1:15:21us what idea stuck out to you and what
1:15:23you're willing to discuss.
1:15:24>> Yes, I just know what I'm going to say.
1:15:26Here. Here, by the way, is a good
1:15:27example.
1:15:28>> Yeah.
1:15:29>> Ah, the outdoor toilet, now the outdoor
1:15:32toilet type 0, in the form of a wooden
1:15:34booth with a pit underneath, is already
1:15:37perceived by most Russians as something
1:15:40, uh, disappearing into the mist.
1:15:45And yet, we still perceive our white
1:15:47ceramic friend as, well, a normal place
1:15:50for the discharge of physiological needs
1:15:52.
1:15:53And just another 50 years A long time
1:15:55ago, most of our population lived with
1:16:00outdoor toilets. At our dachas, you can
1:16:03barely find one with an outdoor toilet.
1:16:06Everyone already has septic tanks.
1:16:08You see, there's
1:16:09>> progress there, you know.
1:16:12Do you think it's even possible to use
1:16:14the term" historical dead end "? Does a
1:16:16historical dead end even exist?
1:16:18>> No, I don't think so.
1:16:20There are just historical slippages, so
1:16:22to speak.
1:16:24There's a situation where, well, the
1:16:26engine is running, the wheels are
1:16:28turning, but, well, it's not a good
1:16:30place to do this on the spot.
1:16:33But then the driver will get out, nudge
1:16:35it with his shoulder, put some boards
1:16:37under the wheels, and the car will move
1:16:39on.
1:16:41Boards from a dismantled toilet with a
1:16:42hole in the floor.
1:16:43>> Well, for example, yes, for example, and
1:16:45that too. And we're inclined to...Well,
1:16:48wait, actually, that's true. And now,
1:16:51excuse me, Russian citizens perceive a
1:16:53place where there's no internet as a
1:16:56disaster site.
1:16:57>> Roughly nowhere,
1:16:58>> right?
1:16:59>> Yeah.
1:17:00>> And some You know, show me a place in
1:17:02Russia where the internet was still
1:17:04wireless 20 years ago?
1:17:06And
1:17:07>> yet, we don't even notice it.
1:17:10We're living in a moment where we're
1:17:11really noticing it. I think that
1:17:14>> when they started…well, the air, yeah,
1:17:15they started choking it a little, yeah,
1:17:18>> and then everyone started running around
1:17:19.
1:17:20>> Our topic has taken an interesting turn
1:17:21.
1:17:22It's taken an interesting turn, probably
1:17:24toward a much broader discussion than I
1:17:26imagined.
1:17:28Well, let's see what our viewers write.
1:17:31Let's
1:17:35go back to the news today, but we've
1:17:40left.
1:17:42I'm
1:17:43>> totally fine with that. Kirill
1:17:44Borisovich Nazarenko, interesting
1:17:45podcast. Thank you for being with us.
1:17:47Send this video to your friends, educate
1:17:49yourself, and give our channel an
1:17:51impetus to grow so that we, well,
1:17:53actually, see some results. You need to
1:17:55like, subscribe, and do all the
1:17:57accompanying rituals. See you soon. Good
1:18:00luck and bye.

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