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«Вся моя література про світло в темряві» — Артур Дронь | «Зі своїми по суті» — Transcript

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0:00My text for the radio dictation could
0:02either be this, or not exist at all. It
0:05is an opportunity to talk to someone
0:07about something very important to me.
0:09Faith in God is a relationship with Him
0:12. Why so few people came to the
0:14independence referendum, and it turned
0:16out everyone was in church. Our society
0:19is definitely falling short for our
0:22veterans in many ways. It is not for
0:24the veterans to think about how they
0:25should adapt. It is for the civilian
0:28world to think about how it should
0:30respond to its veterans. When I walked
0:32here, everything around was blue and
0:33yellow; they thank the military, they
0:35cry. I returned, they don't want to
0:36look at me, they are afraid. I hear the
0:39Russian language everywhere. Military
0:40personnel are being killed in rear-area
0:42cities.
0:43>> Hello. This is the program "Z svoimy po
0:44suti"(In Essence, With Our Own). My
0:45name is Yelyzaveta Tsarygradska. Today
0:48my guest is Artur Dron, a writer and
0:51veteran. I welcome you.
0:53>> Hello, Liza. I am very glad to have the
1:06opportunity to talk with you. I also
1:09caught myself thinking that I've been
1:10saying this almost every time lately,
1:12but in the case of our conversation and
1:15the opportunity to talk, I am truly
1:16very glad, because I have been hunting
1:18for this opportunity for a long time,
1:20so to speak.
1:22>> I am glad you managed to hunt it down
1:23today. Uh, that's true. I have been
1:26generally following how you are present
1:29in the information space lately, and
1:32you are present a lot, because your
1:35book is causing a sensation in literary
1:38circles and beyond. And I think that is
1:41a fact. Today we will talk about one
1:43more news hook. But I am very
1:46interested in following and listening
1:48to your thoughts, particularly when you
1:50reflect on God. And again, that is a
1:53recurring theme that is easily read in
1:56your work. Therefore, it is most
1:58important for me to start this
2:00conversation from the very beginning
2:02and from how it was established. Well,
2:05after all, you wanted to choose serving
2:08God as your life path. And you even
2:11considered a seminary as an option.
2:14>> What was your childhood like? What
2:16shaped you? My childhood could probably
2:22be described as a very typical
2:24childhood in the 2000s in Western
2:27Ukraine. I come from a small village,
2:30Pidmykhailivtsi, in the Rohatyn
2:32district of the Ivano-Frankivsk region.
2:35Uh, well, of course, this component of
2:37religious life in my area is generally
2:40very present, although to some extent
2:43it is even more cultural than religious
2:46. Yes, when there is such a very strict
2:48, well, "strict,"
2:50>> very clear adherence to traditions, but
2:52perhaps not with a good and deep
2:54understanding of the religious
2:56foundations themselves, rather than the
2:58cultural ones. So, I grew up somewhere
3:01in that. But I always tell myself that
3:05the best thing my parents and relatives
3:07gave me in the context of any religious
3:10life or relationship with God is that
3:12no one ever forced me or dragged me
3:15into anything. And it is a great joy
3:18and pleasure to discover for yourself
3:20what interests you in this life. This
3:23component has interested me since I was
3:26probably about 15 years old. Yeah. And
3:31so in high school, I was seriously
3:33thinking about choosing such a path in
3:35life, maybe becoming a priest and
3:37studying at a seminary in
3:38Ivano-Frankivsk. Well, in the end, I
3:41made the decision to study at a
3:43different educational institution. But,
3:46obviously, it was just about choosing a
3:48school, as that didn't mean cutting
3:50this sphere out of my life entirely. I
3:52mean, from that age of 15 until now. I
3:55am very interested in exploring and
3:57thinking about this relationship
3:59between man and God. And, well, it is
4:01an important part of me, so obviously
4:03it is very present in my books as well.
4:05>> Based on my own observations—again,
4:08this is a very subjective experience.
4:11I'm not saying it's like that
4:12everywhere, but my perspective and the
4:15way I was shaped was a super-religious
4:17environment, but the UOC-MP at that
4:19time. Well, and we all perfectly
4:22understand that it is simply the ROC.
4:23Let's put it simply, so to speak. And I
4:26always felt there, starting from
4:29childhood, many rules that no one
4:31explains. Like, it's just because,
4:34either because it's impossible to
4:35comprehend, or don't ask why.
4:38>> And, actually, my worldview was formed
4:40around this. Then, of course,
4:43everything changes drastically when you
4:45enter a university, when you make new
4:46acquaintances, and just gain new life
4:48experience in general. And I began to
4:51feel that in the modern world, in the
4:5421st century, especially when social
4:56media started to develop and everything
4:58became accessible, it became extremely
5:01easy to peek at how other people live.
5:04And I saw a certain marginalization of
5:07people who believe. Uh-huh. And on one
5:11hand, I understood it, because, well,
5:14it is indeed very easy to marginalize
5:16or somehow devalue and belittle people
5:18who cannot explain why, exactly, some
5:20dogma exists. Well, so, because,
5:24>> well, just go aside and mind your own
5:26business. And I am always very
5:29impressed and touched by people who can
5:33think about this, who can, uh, who
5:35approach this as a philosophical
5:38thought, when they see it in a broader
5:41sense. So I assume you were luckier
5:45with your environment, it turns out.
5:48And it's not just this family
5:49upbringing, but perhaps some mentors.
5:52Did you get lucky, again, with the
5:54congregation you belonged to? How was
5:57that?
5:59>> Uh, well, I can say that I completely
6:01agree with you, and I am much more
6:03interested in actually trying to
6:05understand something myself, rather
6:07than just accepting it because that's
6:09the way it is. Uh, and I was perhaps
6:13lucky that I relate to this now, in
6:15general to this religious life, and
6:18probably have since I was 15 or so,
6:20with the clear understanding that this
6:22is a story about a relationship. It's a
6:25story about connections, about
6:27relationships. It’s not just a story
6:29about some fact that you accept, a fact
6:31you believe in, but that for a person
6:33who believes in the existence of God,
6:35the core of this faith is a
6:36relationship with that God. So, if
6:40it’s about a relationship,
6:42communication, and living together,
6:44there’s often no room for "because
6:47that’s how it is," but there is room
6:49for many questions, misunderstandings,
6:52attempts to understand, and doing all
6:55of this within the context of mentors.
6:58Well, I think I was lucky with that,
6:59too. I have a very good spiritual
7:03father, uh, a priest from Lviv, a monk,
7:08a Studite, Vsevolod. Uh, I have a term
7:12that I call a "virtuoso of faith." This
7:17refers to people—not necessarily
7:20clergy, but people in general—who,
7:23within their religious worldview, do
7:25not lead their lives or resolve every
7:28single situation just because it's
7:31written that way, but rather try to
7:34approach things in a creative way,
7:36because that shows a relationship. He
7:41taught me a lot about this, this
7:42creativity. He was, for example, the
7:46first one who ever told me that
7:48sometimes, if he sits down and thinks
7:51about the cruel injustice in the world,
7:53and why everything is the way it is,
7:56and why God allows this and that, and
7:58we are all doomed, and so on. And he
8:02tells me, "I think about it, think, and
8:03think, and in the end, I realize that
8:05here I am sitting and philosophizing
8:07while my floor at home is dirty." Like,
8:09how can you sit there and ask, "Why did
8:11God do this? Why did God do that?" if
8:13you...Well, you can't even manage to
8:15wash the floor. And like, I take a mop,
8:17I wash the floor, I start with this
8:19floor, I remind myself that actually
8:21everything is divided into these small,
8:24separate pieces of work that each of us
8:26can do something about. Yes, and in
8:29this way, interact with God and with
8:32this world, and also influence it. From
8:35the smallest thing—tidying up your
8:37own house—instead of lying in a mess
8:39and pondering with complaints about
8:41something. uh, to the largest, to
8:45something great. Therefore, uh, I think
8:48it comes down to this understanding
8:51that faith in God is a relationship
8:53with Him. If it is a relationship, uh,
8:57then it must involve questions,
9:00misunderstandings, and coexistence, not
9:04just accepting some fact simply because
9:07it is a fact. Uh, obviously, we will be
9:12able to reflect on this or analyze it
9:14much, much later. Perhaps not even us,
9:19but our children, when we observe
9:21certain trends and what it even means
9:24to belong to some faith, to some
9:26religion. Actually, uh, in Ukraine,
9:30this tradition, as it seems to me, is
9:32quite stable. Well, meaning even now,
9:36especially speaking stereotypically,
9:38that the western part of our country,
9:41the typical Galicians, so to speak,
9:43they are observant, they are very
9:45faithful to these traditions, again.
9:48And so, I have a question. From my
9:51observations, again, from my own
9:53experience, I have seen—I have very
9:56rarely and seldom seen cool, modern
9:58young people, my peers, who would also
10:01follow these ideas and pursue them.
10:04Mostly I have seen elderly people. Uh,
10:06that is my experience. As of now, I am
10:09not a parishioner, I don't go to church
10:11, I don't even consider myself a
10:12religious person. But what are your
10:16statistics from your perspective? How
10:20much continuity is maintained in your
10:22environment, from what you see in
10:24church? Because, as I understand it,
10:27you try to go to church every Sunday?
10:29>> Uh, when you mentioned this
10:31stereotyping of Galicians in this
10:34regard, I remembered that three days
10:36ago I visited the "Day of Independence"
10:39exhibition. And there, during the tour,
10:43Yuliya Soloviy shared this fact that
10:45when the referendum on Ukraine's
10:46independence took place, yes, there was
10:48such an interesting fact that in the
10:50morning, and it was a Sunday, there was
10:52an extremely low turnout of people in
10:54the Lviv region. And it looked very
10:57alarming and confusing, why so few
10:59people were coming to the referendum on
11:01independence for so long, and it turned
11:03out that everyone was in church. In
11:06both places, this presence began to
11:08statistically increase right after
11:10lunch, from a slightly later hour, and
11:12it became one of the largest or perhaps
11:14the largest—yes, but it peaked later,
11:16because in the morning, people had to
11:18go to church. Regarding what you are
11:22asking, well, I agree that it seems to
11:25me, perhaps, the share of young people
11:28or, in general, in churches, can be
11:31seen less. Although, even so, you can
11:34see quite a lot of them, it seems to me
11:36. It seems to me that it very much
11:39depends on local communities, on how
11:41these local communities and
11:43congregations work and practice what
11:46they believe in. Yes, because, for
11:49example, I am from a small village, and
11:51obviously, it’s only about once a
11:53week, Sunday mass. And some very basic,
11:57fundamental things. Young, new, modern
12:01congregations in big cities or just
12:03active communities have significantly
12:05more expressions of their Christian
12:07life, in particular with the
12:09involvement of young people. Or, for
12:13example, the best, I think, in this
12:16regard are Protestant communities. It
12:20seems to me that all other Christian
12:23denominations, that is, what is worth
12:25learning from one another, for example,
12:27from Protestant communities, is how
12:29well and actively they involve young
12:31people. This is their practicing and
12:33church life. So, they are still there.
12:37>> And, for example, I was abroad a few
12:39weeks ago with the translation of my
12:42book, and my wife and I went to a
12:44Catholic church in Ireland, a very
12:47large one. There was a very large
12:49congregation, and so it immediately
12:51caught our eye that, for example, there
12:52were practically no young people there
12:54at all. Well, we literally saw two
12:56middle-aged families there, and 92
12:57percent, perhaps, were......very
13:01elderly people. Well, in Lviv, for
13:03instance—even though it’s jokingly
13:05called "holy Galicia," so perhaps
13:07it’s obvious—but I still mention it
13:09because I live there. This share of
13:11young people can still be seen much
13:13more. Well, and most importantly,
13:16obviously, if you are not very
13:17satisfied that there are few of these
13:19young people in churches, then you can
13:21always become that young person in
13:23church and boost this statistic a
13:25little bit.
13:27>> Do you visualize your reader? There is
13:30this concept of a target audience. I
13:34assume that you write because you
13:36cannot help but do so, but all the same
13:38, one way or another, you imagine who
13:40picks up your book or who has the
13:42intention, first and foremost, to pick
13:44it up. What kind of portrait of a
13:46person do you think this is?
13:48>> I definitely don't think about that
13:50when I'm writing. But I certainly do
13:53think about it when I'm working with
13:54the finished text, even when I'm
13:56editing it. So, it still works in a way
13:59that I'm doing it with thoughts of the
14:01person who will be reading it. Because
14:04at the initial stage, I'm writing only
14:06for myself, but after the decision that
14:08I want it published, refining it,
14:10publishing it, or working with the text
14:12as a book—as a product—obviously
14:14implies thinking about those who will
14:17read it. These are people who,
14:22considering the specifics of my, at
14:25least, last three books, are obviously
14:28very deeply involved in the context of
14:32the war, who are mostly, clearly,
14:35severely scarred by this time and this
14:38war, who are all—however many there
14:43may be—still from our same stable
14:46bubble of conscious people who agree on
14:50the time we are living in, the dangers
14:53we face, and the challenges before us.
14:58We understand that many people try to
15:00distance themselves, it seems, from
15:02what is happening now and from their
15:04shared responsibility for what comes
15:05next. I think that this audience for my
15:08books—and I'm not just saying nice
15:10things because I love them so much, but
15:12because it seems to me that it is
15:13exactly so. These are the people who
15:16share this responsibility, to whom it
15:18is very important that they are a part
15:20of this.
15:21>> And, unfortunately, these are people
15:23who are traumatized by all of this, who
15:26have experienced or are experiencing
15:28pain. That is understandable, because
15:30there is, after all, a lot of pain in
15:31these books. Perhaps the most
15:33characteristic trait, the most
15:35important and valuable to me, is that
15:38these are people for whom, just like
15:40for me, a book on this topic right now
15:42cannot be just a book. And any meeting,
15:46any presentation or reading, cannot
15:47just be a reading or just a
15:49presentation. I see very clearly that
15:52for my readers, exactly as it is for me
15:54, it is always an excuse to be together
15:57with someone just like you, to talk, to
16:00actually be together, to remind
16:03yourself that you are not alone in all
16:05of this. I think that is the most
16:08characteristic trait. This need to be
16:11together, to remind oneself that I am
16:13not alone in this, no matter how
16:15difficult, unpleasant, or painful all
16:17of this may be. There are many like me,
16:20and together we somehow manage to cope
16:21with it.
16:22>> Uh, for example, when I read your work,
16:25and generally when I read modern
16:27writers, especially those with combat
16:29experience, people who—it doesn't
16:31matter if they were involved in writing
16:34before or just started now. Uh, for me,
16:37this is extremely important, because I
16:39want to find myself in these lines. And
16:43obviously, I wasn't in the trenches, I
16:45didn't storm any tree lines, but it's
16:47about the context a person came from,
16:50the stressful conditions they found
16:52themselves in, and the responsibility
16:54they took upon themselves. Because
16:57clearly, in a country at war,
16:59responsibility for its future, its
17:01survival, and its integrity can be
17:03shouldered in different ways. And so,
17:06reading you and other authors, I am
17:08looking for this manifestation in words
17:11and in these stories. And I succeed,
17:14and that is really cool. I hope that
17:16the number of copies, like, how many?
17:1940, about 40 or over 40 editions of the
17:23book were published.
17:26>> Uh, I don't remember the exact number
17:28of print runs, but I know the number of
17:30copies themselves is 50,000. Exactly.
17:32>> 50,000. Well, I mean, I assume that
17:35this is exactly the number of people
17:37who, consciously, unconsciously, or
17:39thereabouts, are likely pursuing the
17:41same thing. Therefore, it seems to me
17:45that with such an audience, it’s not
17:47really necessary to work on promoting
17:49the book and convincing people that
17:52they need to read it.
17:54>> Are you involved in the promotion
17:56processes and how this book is
17:58presented? Because obviously, these are
18:01quite specific strategies. We all live
18:03on social media, we more or less
18:05understand how it works.
18:07>> And in your opinion, should an author
18:09even follow this? Once it's written,
18:12again, I understand that this is not
18:14the goal and not the intention for
18:15writing. You write for other reasons
18:19and circumstances, but once it is a
18:21finished text and it needs to be
18:23distributed, how much is expanding this
18:25core of the target audience a pressing
18:27issue for you personally, or something
18:29you engage with and care about?
18:33Regarding whether an author should, I
18:34think it's very subjective and depends
18:36on the specific author—whether they
18:38want to, whether they see value in it,
18:40and so on. As for me, I want to and I
18:43see value in it. I work a lot with this
18:45, actually, promotional component. It
18:47is important to me. In my view, it
18:51becomes part of your work from the
18:53moment you decide that this written
18:55text will be a book. I care about that
18:59book, accordingly. I wish it all the
19:01best and I wish for it to find its
19:02reader. And so, at this stage, I also
19:04try to work a lot together with the Old
19:06Lion Publishing House. I think our
19:09understanding of certain words
19:11sometimes leads us astray here. And we
19:14should immediately address what
19:17promotion means, or promoting a book,
19:20or as we often say in everyday speech,
19:23using the word "PR." There’s a
19:29certain context where the impression
19:31arises that to promote or do PR means
19:33to trick everyone into thinking a book
19:36is the best in the world, right?
19:38>> And then sell it. Just deceive, push it
19:40on someone, and sell it—whatever
19:42happens to it later, who cares.
19:44>> But that is not what book promotion is.
19:49Book promotion, by the definition of my
19:51very close friend and former boss at
19:53the Old Lion Promotion Department,
19:55Oksana Zbro. She formulated it as
19:59clearly as possible. Ever since I first
20:02heard it, I have carried that thought
20:05with me. Book promotion is about making
20:08a book known and helping a book find
20:10its reader, helping those for whom it
20:12could potentially be important to find
20:15it. It’s not about deceiving anyone,
20:18it’s not about selling as much as
20:19possible. It is about understanding
20:22what kind of book it is, who might find
20:24it valuable, and helping that person
20:26find out about its existence. And then,
20:28everything depends on them. And that is
20:32exactly how I try to work with it in my
20:37own mind. I see it as having to do
20:40everything in your power to help those
20:42people to whom it might resonate and
20:44become valuable. To learn about its
20:47existence. There are so many books, so
20:50much information, and everything is
20:52very fleeting. Yes, and it is not some
20:55kind of manipulation or a bad game if
20:58you talk about your book. It is about
21:01helping those for whom it might
21:02potentially connect. Because if your
21:06goal is just to sell any book to anyone
21:09, it won't lead to success, because the
21:12strongest, most effective, most
21:14important, and eternal promotional
21:17activity is the one you have no
21:19influence over. That is the so-called
21:22word-of-mouth. Yes, one person telling
21:25another. It’s when someone has read a
21:27book and recommended it, written about
21:29it, or told others. This is only
21:31possible if you offer that person
21:33something that will be valuable to them
21:35. It is much more valuable to find 10
21:38readers for whom your book is important
21:40and who will recommend it to 10 of
21:42their friends, to whom it will also be
21:44important, than to sell or push 20
21:45copies to just anyone. So, my point is
21:48that you need to understand that
21:51promotion and PR are not negative words
21:54. PR stands for public relations. It is
21:57, once again, about relationships. It
21:59is about relationships with your reader
22:00. The relationship with the reader is
22:02very important to me, and the fate of
22:03my book is very important. That is why
22:06I try to work on this, to help these
22:08readers find it, and eventually
22:10communicate and meet with them a lot.
22:13And I actually really like this aspect
22:16of my work. It is very valuable to me.
22:19>> I like it when people approach what
22:21they do in the literary field from
22:23exactly this perspective. Because I
22:28think we are a bit captive to a certain
22:30romanticized image of a writer who is
22:32all genius, writing somewhere
22:34mysteriously, and who, by and large, is
22:37not very bothered about what happens to
22:39their books. Or like that teacher from
22:44Harry Potter, you know, who wrote only
22:47to gain popularity and brag about the
22:51deeds he invented. And there seems to
22:55be no understanding of how it actually
22:57works, that it is a complete product
22:58that you have to work on because it has
23:00value. Actually, I really want to
23:04manage to talk about your work on the
23:07new book, but before that, I cannot
23:10skip your experience of service. You
23:14fought, were wounded, and are now
23:16discharged, meaning you are a veteran.
23:20And it seems to me that this very topic
23:22in our society also falls into a kind
23:24of blind spot, you know, like on the
23:27road when you are driving. Because on
23:30one hand, you definitely know it is
23:31there,
23:32>> Uh-huh.
23:33>> But you always get caught on this hook.
23:34Or it is just easy to get caught on it.
23:37What do I mean? We talk a lot about
23:40veteran society, various initiatives,
23:43organizations, and the need to build
23:45such a society. But at the same time,
23:48whether this is true in practice,
23:50whether it really works, it is hard for
23:53me to say. As a person who lives in a
23:55small village relatively close to the
23:58capital, I am always surprised by this
24:01disparity,
24:03>> sitting there in Kyiv at work, talking
24:05about various super important topics,
24:06finding a bunch of like-minded people,
24:08lots of cool initiatives, and truly
24:09effective people. I drive a few dozen
24:14kilometers from Kyiv and see that it is
24:16not working at all, at the level of
24:18understanding and meaning. Have you
24:22encountered any problems as a veteran
24:24that affect you and that you believe
24:27should be solved, well, primarily or in
24:30the near future? It seems to me that
24:38during this period of my life as a
24:40veteran, I probably haven't encountered
24:43any problems or great difficulties in
24:46this context. I think I haven't. I have
24:52had a lot of contact, for example, with
24:54the medical sphere because I underwent
24:56long-term treatment after being wounded
24:59, and even later, after I was no longer
25:01a soldier and had become a veteran, I
25:03still had many different medical
25:05matters and surgeries from time to time
25:07. So, for instance, I have dealt a lot
25:11with the medical field, where there is
25:13a great deal adjusted for veterans and
25:15those transitioning to veteran status.
25:20I am aware of how many opportunities
25:22there are for veterans in terms of
25:25finding a job after discharge, both in
25:28terms of seeking employment as an
25:31employee and getting help with starting
25:34one's own business or something similar
25:37. Because there are currently a lot of
25:40grant programs, for example, for
25:41veteran-owned businesses, which are
25:43separate from the state, separate from
25:45various cities, and sometimes separate
25:46from regional structures. So I am
25:49somewhat familiar with the
25:50manifestations of veteran policy at the
25:53local level in these areas. And I
25:56haven't encountered any problems so far
25:58, but I must say that this does not
26:00mean they don't exist. Uh, and yes. Yes
26:06, but regarding my own personal
26:08experience, it seems to me that I
26:11haven't encountered any difficulties.
26:14>> Uh-huh. But if we talk about society
26:17and its perception, well, we understand
26:19that there is some mechanical process,
26:22right, like bureaucracy and everything
26:25related to medicine and social policy
26:27—that is all understandable. But a
26:31lot starts with general awareness,
26:34perception, and certain meanings. I
26:38witnessed a situation that struck me
26:41very deeply. This is not about people
26:45who are hostile toward Ukraine or
26:48anything like that. But when in a
26:52family that has an active soldier
26:54defending Ukraine, they say, "If you
26:56were normal, you wouldn't have gone;
26:58you would have found a way to get a
27:01deferment," and so on and so forth. And
27:05again, I understand that it’s not
27:08some evil intent speaking in that
27:10person, it is the fear for the life of
27:13their loved one. I can understand her,
27:17but I also understand that this impulse
27:19can later manifest in many problematic
27:21situations. And it seems to me that
27:25society is not quite keeping up with
27:27reality. There is objective reality,
27:30and there is a somewhat delayed
27:31reaction from society when we reduce
27:33everything to a common denominator.
27:36Which, of course, shouldn't be done. I
27:37understand that it's also a huge
27:39mistake, but how then are we to gauge
27:40the situation across the board? How are
27:42we to look for guidance if we don't
27:45build some kind of general concept? I
27:49completely agree with you there,
27:50because you can't regulate this sphere,
27:53you can't regulate what's in people's
27:55heads or how they personally treat
27:57veterans, or how that attitude
27:58manifests, through a legislative
28:00initiative by a city council or the
28:02Verkhovna Rada, or whatever. And I
28:06think it's actually more complicated
28:08and sadder than that. Back when I was
28:12on active duty, I also encountered
28:15those banal comments, already familiar
28:18to veterans who have been serving since
28:222014, like "you went there yourself,
28:25why complain now," and so on. Or "
28:29>> we didn't send you there," that sort of
28:31thing—it's just like that. Yeah. Or
28:35my mother encountered remarks like, "my
28:39child wouldn't go fight for Zelenskyy,"
28:42or "I'll never let my son go.""I want
28:47him here to bring me grandkids in a
28:49stroller and play with them, not to be
28:51at war." I mean, just some absolutely
28:54unhinged phrases that clearly show a
28:56total lack of understanding of who
28:58you're talking to and about what, and
28:59so on. And there's a lot of that. And
29:02from time to time you encounter it, I
29:04encounter it from time to time as well.
29:06What to do about it? Honestly, it's
29:08unclear. And in general, these are just
29:11manifestations of very unhealthy things
29:13in some people, in a certain part of
29:15society, because I would put the return
29:18of the Russian language in the same
29:20category—it's something that is
29:22definitely noticeable, that it’s
29:24creeping back in. The presence of this
29:27Russian language somewhere,
29:28>> tolerating it,
29:29>> the actual toleration of it. So, are
29:32these generally some kind of alarm
29:34bells? How to fix them, I honestly
29:36don't know. I mean, I see them, and I
29:39talk about them if I'm asked. How to
29:42regulate them, I don't know. My way of
29:45life is such that it might look from
29:48the outside like I travel a lot or have
29:51many different meetings and literary
29:53events, but I'm going to the same
29:56people we tried to define and describe
29:58at the beginning. I see the same people
30:03, talk to the same people, where we are
30:07in one reality. In fact, I live in this
30:10bubble, I stay in it, I work in it. And
30:12what to do with this negativity on the
30:14outside, I don't know. I mean, I don't
30:17have a solution, nor do I feel
30:18obligated to have one. Well, I mean, I
30:21just hear it on a level that each of us
30:23should be part of this solution. Yes,
30:26but, well, I don't really have a
30:28formula for it. I agree, I think you
30:30formulated it very well, that society
30:32is falling short. Our society is
30:34definitely falling short for our
30:36veterans in many ways. Maybe because
30:39I'm a veteran, it sounds a bit
30:42unpleasant, but still, it seems to me,
30:45the adage is true that it's not
30:47veterans who should think about how to
30:50adapt. It is the civilian world that
30:54should think about how to respond to
30:56its veteran, thanks to whom it exists.
31:00So I can only agree that the problems
31:02are there. Well, at the very least, we
31:06need to speak about them clearly. Even
31:08if it's unpleasant for us to hear, and
31:10try to look for solutions through
31:14>> I think your conscience can be clear,
31:17because what you write, perhaps not
31:20directly, but indirectly, is actually
31:23intended to reduce this gap, this
31:26distance. It fosters understanding,
31:30actually, because you share your
31:32experience and reflect on it. This is
31:35where I'm approaching the topic of the
31:37new book.
31:37>> I realized, I realized that this is
31:40probably, well, because, again, I am
31:42interested in both its structure and
31:45what you can already talk about and
31:47reveal, because very soon it will go on
31:50sale and see the light, and the reader
31:53will be able to hold it, read it, or
31:55even better, read it, not just hold it.
31:59Well, writing this book, what did you
32:03start from? What was your motive and
32:07that driver to start working on it?
32:11>> Wounds, because this is a book about
32:14wounds. The book is called Saint
32:16Panteleimon Hospital. And it is, in
32:18fact, about treatment, about wounds and
32:20about healing. I wanted to write a book
32:23about very different wounds from one
32:26and the same war. I realized we were
32:29leading to this topic with the word "
32:31gap" and these distances, chasms,
32:33because yes, we very often talk about
32:35these gaps in experiences, how hard it
32:37is for us to understand each other and
32:39so on. And this is one of the key
32:41themes of this book, overcoming these
32:44very chasms, because it is about wounds
32:46not only physical and not only in
32:48soldiers. In this book, there are 46
32:52poems and 15 prose texts in a separate
32:54section called Rehabilitation Center.
32:59And in these texts, in this section,
33:00there are, in fact, texts on behalf of
33:02very different people about their very
33:04different wounds from this war. A
33:07monologue of a mother who lost her son,
33:10a defender on the front lines. The
33:14story of a woman whose husband is
33:16missing in action, which is a specific
33:19kind of hell that, unfortunately, many
33:21of our women and families are living in
33:23. The words, a monologue of a girl
33:27whose father died on the front lines
33:30and whose mother died in a car accident
33:33. Because we talk a lot about our
33:35children during the war. I personally
33:37write a lot about them. Yes. But here,
33:40my point was for them to say it
33:41themselves and for us to hear them
33:43directly. And when we dare to listen to
33:47them, the word "children" doesn't even
33:50sound quite appropriate anymore.
33:54Because when a 15-year-old girl, who
33:56has been through all of this, talks
33:58about what she wants to live for and
34:00what is best in life, these are not the
34:03words of a child. These are the words
34:06of someone exceptionally, I don't know,
34:09wiser than many of us,
34:12>> an experienced person, because of the
34:13experience she has actually endured. Or
34:15the story, for example, of our defender
34:17Mykola, who received a horrific injury,
34:19who lost both legs and both arms. And
34:21he, uh, now works as a mentor at the
34:24Unbroken National Rehabilitation Center
34:26. And his job is to help support other
34:30veterans who have suffered complex
34:34injuries. And listening to him, you
34:37look a little differently, uh, at your
34:40own bouts of depression, uh, your own
34:43downward spirals, and so on. When this
34:46man talks about how, and why, and what
34:48you need to keep going for, and with
34:51the memory of whom you need to keep
34:53going, my point was for these very
34:55different experiences to speak for
34:57themselves so that we could start this
34:59dialogue. Because sometimes it is so
35:02hard for us to talk to each other
35:04across these chasms of experience that
35:05we cannot find the words and we don't
35:07speak at all, and that is the worst
35:09thing you can do. And yet, we have to
35:12feel out this common vocabulary, and it
35:14can only be felt out in one way: by
35:16starting this kind of conversation. It
35:19is often unpleasant. In this book,
35:21there is the story of Sasha, a guy who
35:24was taken prisoner in March or April of
35:262022. He was released in an exchange in
35:29May 2025. That is, he literally went to
35:32serve at the beginning of the
35:34full-scale war. And we all remember
35:35what our society looked like and the
35:37relationship between society and the
35:38military at the beginning of the
35:40full-scale war. And he returned last
35:42May and says—his text is actually
35:44called "Time Machine," because he says:
35:46"You know, I went through some kind of
35:48time machine." I don’t know what
35:49times I’m in, what country I’ve
35:51ended up in, among what people; as I
35:52was walking, everything around here is
35:54blue and yellow, people are thanking
35:56soldiers, crying: "I’ve returned, but
35:57they don't want to look at me,
35:59they’re afraid." The Russian language
36:01, uh, I hear everywhere. Soldiers are
36:03being killed in rear-guard cities, uh,
36:05and so on. So, somewhere in these words
36:08and these monologues, if they are open,
36:09truthful, and honest, there are many
36:11things that might be uncomfortable for
36:12us. But this is the only way to start
36:15talking about these chasms, to try to
36:17cast some bridges, even if they are
36:19shaky, across these gaps. I would be
36:21very, it would be very valuable to me
36:23if this book could work at least a
36:25little bit in that direction. And would
36:27actually speak to the fact that there
36:29is, unfortunately, no universal cure.
36:30Well, that sounds like a sentence. Yes,
36:32there is no universal cure, but there
36:34is a separate path for everyone, a
36:36separate search for what can help heal
36:38you specifically, specifically in your
36:40story with your pain. And what I want
36:43to show with this book are people who
36:46are, uh, in similar, unfortunately,
36:48horrors. Unfortunately, because they
36:51are also going through this. But
36:52fortunately, because you are not alone
36:53in this. Again, you are not alone. You
36:54are not alone. You are not alone. You
36:56have someone to talk to. You have
36:58someone, uh, to hear. You have someone
37:02to try to heal each other with, to heal
37:04yourself, and to at least move somehow
37:06toward that healing?
37:10>> I am very interested to read it because
37:14I, like most of the people around me,
37:17am in a state of, uh, hanging by a
37:19thread. I mean, literally, with every
37:24life situation, I’m just waiting for
37:27the one that will make me lose my mind.
37:30Just waiting for when I will finally
37:31snap. We are talking in the autumn of
37:34'26. I think the context of all these
37:37conversations about the approaching
37:39winter and all that is quite clear. And
37:42you know what I was thinking about? Mmm
37:44, about the fact that we are actually
37:49somewhat better off than the rest of
37:51the world, or another part of the world
37:53, or at least the majority, because
37:56>> uh, we have a very clear understanding
37:59of the path we must take. It is super
38:02hard for us. We have tons of challenges
38:05, tons of hardships, tons of trauma and
38:08tragedy, but we see the path very
38:10clearly and we cannot mistake it for
38:13anything else. We have a very clear
38:16understanding of what we need to do
38:18globally, that is, to head toward
38:21victory and what to fight for, and how
38:23to fight. And so in such cases, when it
38:26comes to seeking understanding,
38:28building a new society, uh, new
38:30political processes, fighting
38:32corruption—well, whatever you take on
38:34, it is very clear to us what needs to
38:36be done. And this personally inspires
38:40me, because I realize that despite all
38:42these difficulties, at least I am not
38:44getting lost in a complacent life, in a
38:47life of hypothetical reflections. Life
38:50shows me, or God does, or perhaps the
38:52situation itself is such that I
38:54understand very clearly what is bad and
38:56what is good, where good is and where
38:58evil is. And the most valuable thing in
39:02this process for me is also the
39:03opportunity to hold on to the people
39:05who project this goodness. In a strange
39:10way, I cannot yet analyze or personally
39:14explain this, but in the way you write,
39:17how you communicate, how you enter the
39:20public space with your thoughts, I hear
39:23a lot of good from you.
39:27>> I do not know if you do it
39:28intentionally. Perhaps you set some
39:30switch for yourself, choose a certain
39:33filter. I suppose, well, I am being a
39:36bit flirtatious in saying that. I think
39:38it is just some kind of characteristic
39:41trait. I also think that a lot of it
39:43lies in the belief in God. Once again,
39:45this incomprehensible something, God.
39:48Whoever calls it whatever they want.
39:50But what do you think is your core,
39:53what exactly do you project the most?
39:56If you take away everything you hold
39:58most dear, what will remain of you? Uh,
40:05unfortunately, this answer will
40:06probably be a spoiler for you before
40:08reading the book, because I write about
40:09it there. Uh, not exactly about that,
40:12but I could answer your question like
40:15this. In this book, I tried to
40:17formulate for myself what I am writing
40:19about. I chose a phrasing for myself.
40:22And I think that this phrasing could
40:24also be the answer to this question.
40:26Because thinking about what I am
40:27ultimately writing about, since I am
40:29not really writing about any war at all
40:31. Yes, there is a lot of it there, it
40:33is present there, but these are
40:34obviously not books about war. We can
40:36call them that so they are easier to
40:38find. You could call*Hemingway Knew
40:41Nothing*a book about war just to show
40:43that it is not a book about French
40:45literature, but about that time. But in
40:48reality, what it is about—it is not
40:50about war. I formulated for myself what
40:51it is about, what the book*There Were
40:53Bullets*is about, what the book*St.
40:54Panteleimon Hospital*is about. In a few
40:56words. These are books about light in
40:58the darkness. Uh, and all my literature
41:01is about light in the darkness. And,
41:02perhaps, every one of my texts is about
41:04light in the darkness. about this
41:06incredible, irrational,
41:08incomprehensible, absolutely fantastic
41:10—one could call it fantastic, or
41:13divine, or magical, or whatever trait
41:15it is—human ability, even in the
41:18worst of circumstances, even in those
41:20that people in Ukraine find themselves
41:23in now, to still be able to find,
41:25somehow discover, and feel at least
41:28somewhere, at least some tiny little
41:30piece of light, something to hold onto
41:33and to, uh, make it through these times
41:35. Uh, this is what our defenders, who
41:39have endured the horrors of captivity
41:41and returned, tell us about. Uh, and
41:45not just defenders. Remember when Ihor
41:49Kozlovskyi said that while in Russian
41:51captivity, he would lecture to rats so
41:54as not to lose his mind. He lectured to
41:58rats to preserve, uh, the human being
42:00within himself. This is what all those
42:03children's letters, which are sent to
42:05the defenders on the front, actually
42:08are; bearded, hardened men can tear up,
42:10get moved, because this is actually
42:13what they are fighting for. Their
42:15family, their wife, their daughter, uh,
42:18and so on. So, this property in people
42:20—this ability to find light in the
42:23darkness—is the most powerful thing I
42:25have ever seen in my life. So much so
42:29that I am already writing three books
42:32about it, and it seems to me that this
42:35is what helps me in my own moments of
42:38despair, uh, when I get too overwhelmed
42:41, and it is something I would actually
42:43like to share with someone, uh, and
42:46also help them see. Therefore, it seems
42:50to me that the core of it all, at least
42:52for me right now, is talking about this
42:54light in the darkness. Uh, and it so
42:57happens that I, for example, can also
43:00associate it for myself with God, with
43:02His presence, with His influence,
43:04action, and so on. One can choose not
43:08to associate it with Him, because it is
43:10so divine that it is absolutely human.
43:13It is something very, very human. To be
43:15able, in all this horror, uh, to find
43:18something that will keep you going.
43:21That is worth so very much. Certainly
43:24worth going around and telling everyone
43:27about it or, or writing books.
43:30>> I think that this feeling of mine,
43:32which I share, is very well and easily
43:35read by, well, definitely the majority
43:37of the audience. Whoever is watching or
43:41listening to us now, or has seen you
43:44somewhere before, or reads your books,
43:46is your reader, a fan or not, because,
43:49uh, it's like that word-of-mouth. Why
43:52did the book get so many printings,
43:54sell in such quantities? Why is it
43:56popular? Because it's actually great.
44:00And another marker that confirms this
44:01once again, although it is not strictly
44:03necessary, is the fact that you are the
44:05author of the text for the radio
44:07dictation. For me, the radio dictation
44:11and the person writing the text is
44:13always about a certain, it's like a
44:15litmus test. What is the reader living
44:19for right now? What are we thinking
44:21about right now? How are we
44:23comprehending things now, how are we
44:25articulating them? In this specific
44:27year, every year, there is this sort of
44:29statistical average. And we pluck it
44:32out and try to somehow manifest this
44:35general vibe, pardon the trendy word.
44:38Actually, it's very cool that you are
44:41the same age as the radio dictation.
44:44That was in the year 2000.
44:46>> I hadn't even thought about
44:47>> Yes. And that also, it seems to me, is
44:50a very additional factor, perhaps, a
44:53contributing one. And
44:55>> it turns out even a little younger,
44:56right? Because I was born in December
44:58and it, accordingly, was in November.
45:00Yes, but still, like, the year 2000.
45:03Well, you're peers. And therefore, it
45:07is very important, I think, to trace
45:10this continuity, again, of the topics
45:13we are talking about. The style and
45:18atmosphere in which we speak about it,
45:21how we share it. In short, these are
45:25very interesting phenomena to explore.
45:27Again, many years later, I think,
45:31>> for you, being the author of the radio
45:33dictation text, what is that actually
45:34about? Is it just a pleasure because
45:37you are noticed and recognized in this
45:40way, because it is also a way of
45:43validation, obviously.
45:44>> Or is it something else? It is about an
45:50opportunity that scares and attracts,
45:53and alarms, and evokes feelings of
45:56gratitude, and so on. Such a very
46:01poignant opportunity to say something,
46:05to write something that hundreds of
46:08thousands of people can record all at
46:11once. And therefore, obviously, it is
46:15not just that these hundreds of
46:17thousands of people will be writing it
46:19down. It is an opportunity to talk
46:24about something very important to me
46:26with someone else. It is an opportunity
46:29to somehow, obviously, become part of
46:31this whole history with the radio
46:33dictation. And it's somehow very
46:36pleasant and honorable to join the
46:38ranks of all these people who wrote it
46:40before me. But on some personal level,
46:44it is about this opportunity to say
46:46something to very many people. And when
46:51I received this offer and when I
46:53accepted it, I decided for myself that
46:56one can only say something truthfully
46:59to many people if I am actually saying
47:02it to one person.
47:04>> Uh-huh. And I would very much like the
47:08Radio Dictation of National Unity to
47:11work specifically for unity each year.
47:13Yes, language unites us, language makes
47:16us one. In this radio dictation, I
47:19really want to show how language can
47:21unite through the fact that it is for
47:23everyone together and for each
47:25individual in particular. I would
47:29really love for this text to resonate
47:31with everyone individually, and for it
47:34to become as personal to someone else
47:37as it has become to me. You see, I
47:40wrote it with the understanding that it
47:42would be read to a large audience and
47:44that many people would be writing it.
47:47But what was more important for me was
47:48the understanding that it would be read
47:50to a large audience, and each of those
47:52people would be writing it. That very
47:55personal, individual focus. My dream is
47:58that the people who write this text
48:01will be able, while writing it, to
48:04think about someone most important to
48:07them and write this text to them.
48:11>> If it works that way for someone, then
48:14that is the best thing I could wish for
48:16myself and for this text.
48:18>> And how long did you spend writing this
48:20text? Was it a long process? Actually,
48:25not very long. I think it was probably
48:28two weeks from the moment I received
48:30the offer until I sent the finished
48:32text. Maybe three weeks—not a long
48:34time chronologically, but I obviously
48:36rewrite it many, many times. I rewrite
48:38my texts a great deal. Your colleagues
48:40just asked me today about how many
48:41versions of this text there were. There
48:43is one version, but I rewrote it about
48:4520 times. Uh, probably, uh, because
48:48it’s a text with a very small number
48:51of words. It’s literally just about
48:54200 words. And it’s kind of—how can
48:57one choose the 200 most important words
49:01? Especially considering that some of
49:03them will also repeat. That’s why I
49:06worked on it, perhaps not so long
49:08chronologically, but with a lot of
49:10repetition, over and over and over
49:13again. But still, now with the text as
49:16it is, it seems to me that my text for
49:19the radio dictation either has to be
49:21this way, or it shouldn't exist at all.
49:25Uh, meaning I’m not obsessing over
49:28its specific, individual components.
49:31>> Uh-huh.
49:31>> This text is exactly my response to the
49:34offer to write something that will be
49:36read to such a large audience, and to
49:38have it written. So, it will either
49:40work just the way I would like, or it
49:43won’t. But I definitely wouldn't have
49:45written any other one.
49:47>> And do you write radio dictations in
49:48general? Did you write them before?
49:50>> Yes, I write them, and I wrote one last
49:51year too. Last year, by the way, I
49:53wrote it at the Old Lion Publishing
49:55House office. Uh, I wrote them before,
49:57and I wrote them in school. Uh, I
49:58didn't write when I was in the service,
50:00I think, yes. But in general, I have
50:02written, I’ve written a few times. Uh
50:04, I never sent it in for grading; I
50:06didn't claim anything. Uh, even
50:09>> you just knew that everything there was
50:11correct.
50:11>> Oh, hardly, hardly. Well, I know that
50:13this year it will definitely be easy
50:15for me to write it. And this is truly
50:17the year, well, see, on one hand, it
50:19will be strange to write it, but on the
50:21other hand, it's my chance to write the
50:23dictation for the first time without a
50:25single mistake. I have to think, think
50:28about this.
50:29>> Maybe that’s the very reason to send
50:31it in for grading in that case. That
50:35would be even stranger, but yeah, okay.
50:39>> This is a very, very interesting story
50:41with the radio dictation for me, as
50:43it’s always about this sense of unity
50:45—you know, when you reach New Year's
50:48and you know that a huge number of
50:49people at this very second are also
50:51counting down the seconds until the
50:53start of the new year. And for me, the
50:56radio dictation is exactly the same.
50:59And it’s really cool that, again,
51:01returning to those meanings embedded
51:03within it, we are writing together, we
51:05are contemplating a thought together, a
51:07huge number of people. That always
51:10draws me in. I mean, I never chase
51:12after the grammar or the correctness of
51:14what's written, but rather the
51:16opportunity to think about something
51:18together at that moment, at that very
51:21second. It's very cool. And you know,
51:23you are even on the same line together,
51:26because, well, it’s being dictated.
51:29It is a very, very interesting process.
51:31>> So it is, essentially, about unity. And
51:34the fact that this unity is created by
51:37language,
51:38>> is something extremely important. And
51:41again, the more dangerous things are,
51:42the more important it becomes.
51:44>> Things are very dangerous right now, so
51:45this is very important.
51:47>> This is already a tradition, the radio
51:49dictation. And I really like that we
51:52are increasingly acquiring, as a nation
51:55, this sense of traditionalism and a
51:58set of traditions that are often not
52:01even linked to religion. Because, well,
52:05in most cases when we talk about our
52:07cultural heritage, it is one way or
52:09another connected to religion, just
52:12like other nations. That is normal,
52:14because that is how the flow of history
52:16was shaped. But again, in the context
52:20of how much of a multinational country
52:22we are, that we have an indigenous
52:24people, we have Crimean Tatars who are
52:26Muslim, but they can still share this
52:29tradition regardless of such views. And
52:32that is very cool. That always inspires
52:34me a lot. We are already heading toward
52:38the end of our conversation, much to my
52:41regret, but I would like to offer you a
52:45little exercise. I don’t offer it to
52:48just anyone, but I am very interested
52:50to hear your thoughts. At one time, my
52:53therapist suggested that I visualize
52:56myself several years from now. Choose
52:59arbitrarily. I mean, obviously, it
53:02should be a significant step, not one
53:04or two years, but maybe 10, 15, or 30
53:06—it's up to you.
53:09>> And so, who is this person? Artur Tron,
53:12what he has done, what he is doing,
53:15what he aspires to, what he is proud of
53:18, what he is perhaps ashamed of. And
53:21here you can even delve into some
53:23little things. Well, you know, maybe
53:25you got a few chickens, for example,
53:27because you've long dreamed of it or
53:28something like that.
53:29>> Or maybe you are teaching. Well, I'm
53:32already starting to fantasize, in a
53:34word, uh, how do you see yourself and
53:36in how many years?
53:39>> Ah, well, in the context of such tasks,
53:41I'm a bit of a bore, and I would have
53:44to think for a very long time to answer
53:46well, with great certainty. But if we
53:49talk about some aspects that I know for
53:53sure and can, uh, and can, m, say
53:55already, then it is definitely a person
53:59who, uh, has the opportunity to be with
54:02their family, who, uh, has a clear
54:05understanding, uh, that they are in the
54:09right place, uh, who is a writer whose
54:15readers, uh, remain alive and are not
54:19in danger of dying every day. Uh, who
54:24writes uh, rather just about the light,
54:29instead of about light with that prefix
54:31"in darkness." May there be as little
54:34of this darkness as possible. Uh,
54:38someone who lives with a very clear
54:42conscience in all aspects of their work
54:45as a writer, of their life, there as a
54:49husband to their wife or a son to their
54:53parents, who has a very great inner
54:57peace. I think these are definitely the
55:00aspects that I am sure I would wish for
55:02myself after any number of years. And I
55:06will try to ensure them for myself.
55:09>> Thank you very much for this
55:10conversation. I wish for all your
55:12intentions, all your aims, desires, and
55:15dreams to come true. I am very grateful
55:17to you for the opportunity to talk with
55:19you.
55:20>> Thank you. Thank you, Liza. Thank you
55:22for inviting me.
55:23>> All that remains for me is one thing:
55:25to hope that we will meet on set next
55:27time.

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This page contains the full transcript of «Вся моя література про світло в темряві» — Артур Дронь | «Зі своїми по суті» by Суспільне Культура, generated from the public captions YouTube serves with the video. The transcript has 8,858 words across 1,316 segments, with the original timestamps preserved so you can click any line to jump to that moment in the embedded player.

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