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7 Pretrib Problems and the Prewrath Rapture (Full Movie) — Transcript

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0:04it's a story that most of us in the west
0:06know
0:07or think we know if you've spent any
0:11time in the christian faith
0:12you've probably seen the movies read the
0:14books or heard the sermons
0:16about a forthcoming supernatural event
0:19known
0:19as the rapture
0:23a time when millions of people will
0:25suddenly vanish
0:26from the earth just prior to the
0:29greatest apocalyptic event
0:31imaginable for christians this has
0:35become a message of hope and comfort
0:38but it's also been the cause of major
0:40disagreements
0:42and even after years of debate the
0:45church is still
0:46equally divided on the major questions
0:48about the rapture
0:50can it really occur at any moment
0:54or does the bible speak of certain
0:55prophetic and celestial events that must
0:58occur first
1:00will the church have to face its
1:01greatest enemy the antichrist
1:03before the rapture or will the rapture
1:07happen just before
1:08he comes on the scene join us as we
1:12go on a journey through the holy
1:13scriptures to review and
1:15answer the most critical aspects of the
1:17rapture debate
1:19this is seven pre-trib problems and the
1:22pre-wrath rapture
1:30[Music]
1:42over the years many different views
1:44about the timing of the rapture have
1:46been proposed
1:47but the rapture debate has been
1:48especially active in the last decade or
1:50so
1:51and as a result there have been some
1:53major shifts in the way that the
1:54scholars have been teaching them
1:57for example if you studied one of the
1:59more popular views
2:00pre-tribulationism 20 or 30 years ago
2:03you probably wouldn't even recognize
2:05what is being taught in the seminaries
2:07today
2:08part of the reason for these sometimes
2:10drastic changes in pre-tribulational
2:12theology
2:13has been a direct result of criticisms
2:15from scholars holding to the pre-wrath
2:17position on the rapture
2:19which has massively gained in popularity
2:21in the last 30 years
2:22overtaking the mid tribulation position
2:25for example by a significant amount
2:27but most of this debate has taken place
2:29among scholars in theological journals
2:31and in university lecture halls so it's
2:33not something the average christian
2:35engages
2:36with and even most pastors aren't aware
2:38of the intricate arguments that the
2:40theologians have been wrestling with
2:41the past few years in this documentary
2:44we interviewed many scholars
2:46theologians and pastors who hold the
2:48pre-wrath position
2:50on the rapture and ask them to help us
2:52determine the most critical aspects
2:54of the rapture debate we then distilled
2:57these arguments down to the seven
2:58pre-trib
2:59problems which we will present one by
3:01one
3:02before we present the first problem on
3:04our list we need to understand the
3:06basics of the main rapture timing
3:08positions
3:10most rapture views teach that the end
3:11times are played out over a period of
3:14seven years
3:15this seven year time frame is sometimes
3:17called the 70th week of daniel
3:19because of daniel 9 verses 24-27
3:23where the seven year period is first
3:25introduced
3:26the disagreements primarily concern when
3:28the rapture happens
3:30and when the wrath of god known as the
3:32day of the lord begins
3:33in relationship to that seven year
3:35period
3:37pre-tribulationists believe the rapture
3:38can begin at any moment
3:41but whenever it does happen it will
3:43prove to be just before the seven year
3:45period begins
3:46and that the entire seven year period is
3:49the day of the lord
3:51mid-tribulationists believe the rapture
3:53occurs at the mid-point of the seven
3:55year period
3:57and the last half of the seventieth week
3:59is the day of the lord
4:01post-tribulationists believe the rapture
4:03occurs at the very
4:04end of the seven year period most
4:07post-tribbers believe that the day of
4:09the lord is a literal 24-hour day
4:12occurring at the very end of the seven
4:14years
4:15it should be said that some
4:16post-tribbers believe the day of the
4:18lord is longer
4:19specifically that it will start at the
4:21midpoint and continue to the end
4:23but that the church will be
4:24supernaturally protected through the
4:26wrath of god
4:27until the final day when the rapture
4:29will take place
4:31the pre-wrath view teaches that the
4:33rapture occurs at some
4:34unknown time after the midpoint
4:37they say that no one knows exactly when
4:39the rapture happens
4:41it could be weeks or could be years
4:43after the midpoint
4:44but that it will be after the midpoint
4:48they teach that on whatever day the
4:49rapture does occur the day of the lord's
4:51wrath
4:52will begin on that same day pre-rathers
4:55therefore believe that the church will
4:57face the persecution of the antichrist
4:59that begins at the midpoint of the seven
5:01year period
5:02but that persecution is said to be cut
5:05short
5:06with the rapture basically the idea is
5:08that on the very
5:10day that god's people are out of the way
5:12the wrath of god
5:13known as the day of the lord begins on
5:15the rest of the world
5:17i'll explain all the details and the
5:19reasonings behind
5:20most of these positions as we progress
5:22but there is one more term that really
5:24needs defining before we go any further
5:27recently it has become something of a
5:29tradition to refer to the entire
5:31seven-year period
5:32as the tribulation period this is
5:35unnecessarily confusing since there is a
5:37recognized
5:38theological term called the great
5:40tribulation and almost all biblical
5:42scholars
5:43regardless of their view on the rapture
5:45recognize that the great tribulation
5:47is specifically the time of the
5:49antichrist persecution
5:51which begins after the midpoint in other
5:54words
5:54in order to avoid confusion with the
5:56great tribulation
5:58we will refer to the seven year period
6:00as either the seven year period
6:02or the seventieth week of daniel in this
6:05film
6:08[Music]
6:14the first pre-trib problem on our list
6:16is called the precursor problem
6:18and in order to understand it we need to
6:20first talk a little about the so-called
6:23day of the lord the day of the lord is
6:25an old testament concept for when god
6:28shows up
6:29in history and finally in the end
6:33to judge his enemies and uh sometimes to
6:36vindicate or rescue his
6:38people it really means the time of god's
6:41wrath
6:41in an ultimate sense when god will pour
6:44out his judgment his
6:46vengeance on a wicked world scripture
6:49explicitly declares that the saints
6:53will not experience the eschatological
6:57wrath of god the wrath of god that is
7:00typically
7:01associated with what we call the day of
7:04the lord
7:04therefore the question in my opinion
7:08the really the only question uh is when
7:11does the wrath of god
7:12begin as mentioned earlier
7:15pre-tribulationists
7:16teach that the entire seven year period
7:18is the wrath of god
7:20and that the rapture will occur just
7:22before it begins
7:24importantly they also believe that the
7:26rapture is imminent
7:28meaning that it can happen at any moment
7:31and there are no prophetic events
7:33that must come before the rapture
7:35however there are at least
7:37four events explicitly stated to come
7:40before
7:40the day of the lord in scripture elijah
7:43will be sent
7:44before the day of the lord a rebellion
7:47or apostasy
7:48will occur the man of lawlessness will
7:51be revealed
7:52before the day of the lord also a very
7:55specific series of cosmic disturbances
7:57will be given as a sign
7:59before the day of the lord now this is a
8:02very big
8:03problem for pre-tribulational imminence
8:08because as pre-tribulational imminence
8:11is defined
8:12there are to be no precursors no
8:15necessary precursors before the coming
8:18of the day of the lord or the coming of
8:19the rapture
8:21but we have explicit declarations
8:24in the bible that we have several
8:27precursors that have to come
8:29before the great and terrible table lord
8:31pre-tribulational teachers
8:33admit themselves that if you can find
8:36one
8:37event that will occur before the rapture
8:40then it contradicts eminence theology
8:43and hence it contradicts
8:44pre-tribulational theology well
8:46definitely the fact that
8:48the the scriptures uh
8:52tell us that there are going to be
8:52precursors to the day of the lord is an
8:55argument against
8:56pre-tribulationism to clarify based on
8:59where pre-trib
9:00teachers have traditionally placed the
9:02rapture if these four
9:04biblically prophesied events occur
9:06before the day of the lord
9:08it means there are in fact events that
9:10must come
9:11before the rapture the very thing
9:14pre-tribbers say
9:15cannot occur we will discuss several of
9:18the precursors in other sections
9:20but i want to focus on one in particular
9:23here
9:23found in the book of joel the sun shall
9:27be turned to darkness
9:28and the moon to blood before the great
9:31and awesome day
9:33of the lord comes joel 2 31
9:37many of the old testament prophets wrote
9:40about this time
9:41the day of the lord the time of god's
9:43wrath and
9:45almost every time you read about it in
9:47the old testament you're going to find
9:49it connected with something that i term
9:51cosmic disturbance
9:53something happens to the sun the moon
9:55and the stars isaiah 13
9:57other passages in the old testament
9:59present these cosmic disturbances
10:01that will be signs that the day of the
10:04lord has arrived
10:05joe explicitly states it's going to
10:07happen before
10:08not during before the day of the lord
10:12this is so important because there are
10:14two prophecies in the new testament
10:16about when this particular celestial
10:18sign takes place
10:20the first in matthew makes it clear that
10:22the sun
10:23moon and star sign occurs immediately
10:26after the tribulation of those days
10:29and everyone agrees that those days in
10:32context
10:33is a reference to the persecution that
10:35begins directly
10:36after the abomination of desolation
10:39which theologians call
10:41the great tribulation so if you compare
10:45joel 2 verse 31 which says that this
10:48sign occurs
10:49before the day of the lord with the
10:52passage we just read in matthew that
10:54says the cosmic sign comes
10:56after the great tribulation which begins
10:59at the midpoint
11:00you have explicit evidence that the day
11:02of the lord is
11:03not seven years long but rather that it
11:06begins at some
11:08unknown point after the middle of the
11:10seventieth week
11:12we see this confirmed in revelation
11:14chapter 6
11:15where it says that the celestial
11:16disturbance sign occurs at the so-called
11:19sixth seal and even most
11:22pre-tribulationists will agree
11:23that the sixth seal in revelation takes
11:26place
11:27after the midpoint of the seven year
11:29period we will talk
11:30more about revelation 6 and the seals in
11:33another section
11:35but for now let's see how pre-tribbers
11:37try to explain
11:38some of the things we have brought up so
11:40far surprisingly
11:42few pre-trib scholars have addressed the
11:44precursor problem at all
11:46but of the few that have they present
11:48three possible solutions
11:50dr richard mayhew a very accomplished
11:53and well-respected
11:54pre-tribulational scholar chose to
11:56simply agree that there were precursors
11:59to the day of the lord
12:00connected to the midpoint and that the
12:02day of the lord must therefore
12:04start after those precursors after the
12:07midpoint
12:08but i'm inclined to follow more along
12:11the lines of dr richard mayhew
12:13who argued that the uh
12:16typical uh long-term historical
12:19aspect or thinking regarding
12:22the beginning of the day of the lord
12:24probably needs to be
12:25rethought among pre-tribbers
12:29as you may have noticed this timeline of
12:32mayhews is pretty much
12:33exactly what the pre-wrathers teach with
12:36one
12:36very important exception mayhew places
12:40the rapture the same place that
12:41pre-tribbers always have
12:43just before the seven year period starts
12:46whereas
12:46pre-rathers place the rapture just
12:49before the day of the lord starts
12:51at some unknown point after the midpoint
12:54mayhew does this because he is still a
12:57pre-tribulationist
12:58and so he can't compromise on the idea
13:01of imminence
13:02therefore he can't allow these events to
13:04occur before the rapture
13:06as it would destroy the idea of an any
13:08moment rapture
13:10so while he allows for these events to
13:12occur before the day of the lord
13:15he moves the rapture well before the day
13:17of the lord
13:18so there are still no events that occur
13:20before it
13:22pre-rathers have come to call this
13:24method of dealing with the precursor
13:26problem
13:26the gap theory basically this theory
13:29places a significant gap of time
13:32between the rapture and the day of the
13:34lord
13:35in dr mayhew's view the gap is over
13:37three and a half years long
13:39but there are slightly different takes
13:41on the gap theory out there
13:44for example pre-tribulationists like
13:46arnold fruchtenbaum
13:48who recognize various aspects of the
13:50precursor problem
13:51but still want to maintain the
13:53traditional pre-trib view
13:55that the day of the lord is seven years
13:56long have to do something a little more
13:59radical
14:00they assert that the rapture happens at
14:02some undefined
14:04but significant amount of time before
14:06the seven year period
14:08even begins it has to be a fairly long
14:11gap to accommodate all four precursors
14:14though there has been no attempt to
14:15define exactly how long of a gap
14:18it will be both manifestations of the
14:21gap theory
14:22have the same fundamental problem which
14:24is that jesus teaches that the rapture
14:26and the beginning of the wrath of god
14:28are back-to-back events that occur
14:31on the same day and if that is true
14:34there can be no gap between the rapture
14:36and the day of the lord
14:39one of the reasons people on all sides
14:41of the debate have historically placed
14:43the rapture
14:44just prior to the day of the lord with
14:46no gap
14:47is because of jesus's teaching in the
14:49olivet discourse
14:50which says but concerning that day and
14:53hour
14:54no one knows not even the angels of
14:57heaven
14:58nor the son but the father only
15:01for as were the days of noah so will be
15:03the coming of the son of man
15:05for as in those days before the flood
15:08they were eating and drinking
15:10marrying and giving in marriage until
15:12the day
15:13when noah entered the ark and they were
15:15unaware until the flood came and swept
15:17them all away so will be the coming of
15:20the son of man
15:22and in luke's account the parable of lot
15:24is added to this
15:26likewise just as it was in the days of
15:28lot
15:29they were eating and drinking buying and
15:32selling
15:33planting and building but on the day
15:35when lot went out from sodom
15:38fire and sulfur reigned from heaven and
15:40destroyed them all
15:42so will it be on the day when the son of
15:44man is revealed
15:46they are joined they are back to back
15:48and we see that pattern
15:50throughout scripture like with
15:53uh noah it was on the same day when noah
15:56entered the ark that the floods came
15:58furthermore uh with lot it was on the
16:01same day that he
16:02uh exited that the wrath came
16:06and fire came upon sodom really the
16:09rapture
16:11triggers the day of the lord because now
16:14it is time for retribution
16:17for vindication this idea that the
16:20righteous would be rescued on the same
16:23day that the day of the lord began
16:25is probably why the new testament
16:26writers consistently spoke of the day of
16:29the lord
16:29as good for believers but bad for
16:32everyone else
16:34it is the day we will receive our
16:36rewards and be with christ
16:39but it's also the day god's wrath will
16:41be poured out on the world
16:44this is why peter said we should look
16:46for and hasten the day of the lord
16:49it's why jesus said when we see the sign
16:51that the day of the lord is about to
16:53occur
16:54we should lift up our heads because our
16:56redemption draws nigh
16:59this idea that the rapture happens on
17:01the same day that the day of the lord's
17:03wrath begins
17:05is very conservative theology believed
17:08from the earliest days of the church
17:10it's actually still believed by the
17:12majority of pre-tribbers
17:14it is only those who have realized the
17:17implications of the precursor problem
17:19who have begun to seek out alternative
17:22theologies about the timing of the day
17:24of the lord
17:24in relationship to the rapture
17:28the third way pre-tribulationists have
17:30attempted to deal with the precursor
17:32problem is to claim that there are two
17:34days of the lord
17:36one that is seven years long and another
17:3824-hour day of the lord
17:41associated with armageddon this theory
17:44allows them to have
17:45all the precursors take place before
17:47their new
17:4824-hour day of the lord and because they
17:51place the rapture
17:52immediately prior to the beginning of
17:54the seven year long version of the day
17:56of the lord
17:57they can maintain pre-trib imminence
18:00that no
18:01prophesied events occur before the
18:03rapture
18:04there are a lot of problems with this
18:06argument but the main one
18:08is that as we have seen the celestial
18:11disturbance precursor
18:13which is said to occur before the day of
18:15the lord
18:16in joel 2 31 takes place
18:19at the sixth seal in revelation 6 verses
18:2212 to 14.
18:24this is significant because even though
18:26there are some minor disagreements about
18:28the timing of the first few seals
18:31in relationship to the seven year period
18:33the sixth seal is almost universally
18:36believed
18:37to be after the midpoint so that means
18:40this theory would require a
18:42third day of the lord to be added to
18:44their list
18:45because the sixth seal is unquestionably
18:49after the beginning of the seven year
18:50period and at the very least
18:53five months before armageddon we know
18:56this because the fifth
18:57trumpet which is a part of the day of
18:59the lord is said to be
19:01five months long we will learn much more
19:04about the sixth seal and how it relates
19:06to the day of the lord in another
19:08section of this film but needless to say
19:11this third option isn't a very popular
19:13one among pre-tribbers
19:15in their defense the precursor problem
19:18doesn't leave pre-tribbers with many
19:19good options
19:21and so the most common way they deal
19:22with it is to avoid explaining these
19:25problems to their fellow pre-tribbers
19:27in the first place
19:30[Music]
19:37the second pre-trib problem is related
19:39to the olivet discourse
19:41which is the name for the teaching about
19:43the end times that jesus gave on the
19:45mount of olives
19:46recorded in matthew 24 mark 13
19:50and luke 21 christians throughout the
19:52ages have believed this passage to be
19:55speaking of the signs leading up to the
19:56rapture
19:57in other words they believed that the
19:59signs that jesus tells his disciples
20:01about in the olivet discourse
20:03are signs that will happen before the
20:06rapture
20:06and that the rapture itself is pictured
20:09in matthew 24
20:1130-31 which says then will appear in
20:14heaven the sign of the son of man
20:17and then all the tribes of the earth
20:19will mourn and they will see the son of
20:21man
20:22coming on the clouds of heaven with
20:24power and great glory
20:25and he will send out his angels with a
20:27loud trumpet call
20:29and they will gather his elect from the
20:30four winds from one end of heaven
20:33to the other there are lots of reasons
20:36to believe that the rapture is being
20:37described in matthew 24
20:39starting with the clear parallels
20:41between the events described in matthew
20:4324
20:44and the events described in other
20:46rapture passages
20:47such as first thessalonians 4 verses 16
20:50and 17
20:51which says for the lord himself will
20:53descend from heaven with a cry of
20:55command
20:56with the voice of an archangel and with
20:58the sound of the trumpet of god
21:00and the dead in christ will rise first
21:03then we who are alive
21:04who are left will be caught up together
21:06with them in the clouds
21:08to meet the lord in the air and so we
21:11will
21:11always be with the lord jesus
21:14description of his coming in matthew
21:16chapter 24 verses 29 through 31
21:19parallels ideally paul's description
21:23of the rapture in first thessalonians
21:26chapter 4 verses 13
21:27through 17. and paul confirms this
21:30through
21:31many linguistic connections
21:34in his first epistle to the
21:35thessalonians there are tons of
21:37parallels
21:39everything from you know the angels and
21:42the trumpet
21:42and uh the gathering of god's elect but
21:46also um you know the thief in the night
21:48imagery
21:49the drunkenness versus so sobriety
21:54imagery the problem with this for the
21:56pre-tribber
21:57is that if the rapture is in view in
21:59verses 30 and 31
22:01it leads to the conclusion that there
22:03must be precursors or
22:04signs before the rapture because in
22:07context
22:08there are lots of signs that happen
22:10before the events in verses 30 and 31
22:14for example a straightforward reading of
22:16this passage
22:17means that before the rapture can take
22:19place the following events will happen
22:21first
22:22a number of smaller signs jesus calls
22:25birth pains
22:26the abomination of desolation when the
22:28antichrist declares himself to be god in
22:31the temple
22:32at the midpoint a great persecution like
22:35none that has ever been seen
22:37in history a falling away or an apostasy
22:41from the faith and an ominous sign in
22:44the sun
22:44moon and stars followed immediately
22:47by the rapture as we have seen the idea
22:51of precursors before the rapture
22:53is unacceptable with pre-tribbers
22:55because it would mean that the rapture
22:56is not
22:57imminent in other words if the rapture
23:00is what is being referred to
23:01in verses 30 and 31 of matthew 24
23:04it would mean that there are things that
23:06will happen first
23:08that the rapture can't occur at any
23:10moment and most significantly
23:12it would mean that the church will face
23:14the antichrist persecution
23:16before the rapture after the pre-trib
23:20view was proposed in the mid-1800s
23:23all these problems in the olivet
23:25discourse were immediately recognized
23:28and a new sort of anti-matthew 24
23:30movement
23:31began at first they essentially taught
23:34people not to pay attention
23:36to this section of scripture at all they
23:38said it was only meant for those left
23:40behind
23:41such as jews or the so-called
23:43tribulation saints
23:44arguments for this would begin by saying
23:46things like matthew is a particularly
23:49jewish gospel
23:50and because of the jewish focus of the
23:52book of matthew this section was not
23:54meant for the church thankfully this
23:57particular line of argumentation has
23:59been mostly rejected in recent years
24:02even pre-tribulational scholars have
24:04come to realize its flaws
24:07for example they point out that matthew
24:09might be the most
24:10church-focused gospel of them all it's
24:13the only one that mentions the great
24:14commission
24:15and the section on church discipline in
24:18chapter 18.
24:19in fact matthew is the only gospel that
24:22uses the word church
24:23at all if you're going to make the
24:26argument
24:27that matthew chapter 24 is not for
24:29believers
24:31are you going to make the same argument
24:32two chapters later when jesus
24:34institutes the ordinance of the
24:35communion it's a it's a real problem for
24:38pre-tribulationists in that regard
24:40pre-tribulationists did come up with one
24:43interpretation of matthew 24 that seemed
24:45to stick
24:46in the mid-1800s they began to teach
24:48that verse 31
24:50was not the rapture at all but some
24:52other event that occurred at the end of
24:54the seven-year period
24:56most often they said it referred to the
24:58battle of armageddon in revelation 19
25:01where jesus descends to battle with the
25:03armies of the antichrist
25:05historically classical pre-tribers did
25:07not
25:08would not allow the the rapture to be
25:12put in the proximity of matthew 24
25:16and 25 they argued that the rapture is
25:18nowhere to be seen there
25:20that any mention of a coming of christ
25:22in that passage
25:23has it refers to armageddon there are
25:27lots of problems with this view
25:29for instance many of the parallels that
25:31we see with the thessalonian letters and
25:33matthew 24
25:34just don't apply to armageddon the
25:37events in matthew 24 verses 29 to 31
25:41and the events at armageddon are
25:43fundamentally different
25:45in matthew there is a rescue of god's
25:47people from the earth to heaven
25:49but in armageddon jesus returns from
25:52heaven to destroy the wicked people
25:54on the earth but the biggest problem
25:57with the armageddon view
25:58and the one pre-trib scholars in the
26:00last few years have been scrambling to
26:03solve
26:03comes from the obvious contradictions
26:06this view creates with the second half
26:08of the olivet discourse
26:09so in the latter part of matthew 24 and
26:12matthew 25 we are introduced to many
26:14parables
26:15of jesus concerning the day and hour and
26:19readiness for his coming
26:21and from a pre-tribulational perspective
26:23this proves to be a problem in many
26:25different ways
26:26regardless of the way it's interpreted
26:29which
26:29are various to set the stage it's
26:32important to remember a basic outline of
26:34the olivet discourse
26:36the disciples ask jesus what the signs
26:38of his coming will be
26:40then jesus gives them a fairly large
26:42list of signs
26:43ending with the coming itself i.e the
26:46rapture
26:47in verses 30 and 31 from that point on
26:50after verse 31 and going all the way
26:52through chapter 25
26:54jesus tells his disciples various
26:56parables about how important it is
26:59for them to watch for the signs of his
27:01return signs he just got done telling
27:04them about
27:05it is in this last section where
27:07pre-tribbers have so many problems to
27:09solve
27:10because when they changed the meaning of
27:11verses 30 and 31
27:13from the rapture to armageddon they
27:15changed the meaning of these parables as
27:17well
27:18and these parables just don't make sense
27:21in verses 30 and 31
27:23are anything but the rapture for example
27:26in one of these parables it says
27:28that no one knows the day or the hour of
27:30jesus is coming
27:32and while many laymen pre-tribbers will
27:34quote this verse in reference to the
27:36rapture
27:37they do this ignorantly the pre-trib
27:39scholars know that if they have changed
27:42verse 31 to be about armageddon then
27:44they must make this
27:45not knowing the day or the hour to be
27:48about armageddon
27:50after all according to them jesus wasn't
27:53talking about the rapture
27:54at any point in this chapter and in
27:57context
27:58whatever verses 30-31 are referring to
28:01is what the parables that follow them
28:03have to be about
28:04so they're stuck having to defend the
28:06idea that no one will know the day
28:09or the hour of armageddon
28:12the problem here is that we know from
28:14several other verses in scripture
28:16that the day armageddon occurs will be
28:18exactly 7 years
28:20and 30 days after the covenant is made
28:23by the antichrist
28:24and exactly 1290 days after the
28:27abomination of desolation
28:29at the midpoint in other words since it
28:32seems very likely people will at least
28:34know when the abomination of desolation
28:36at the midpoint occurs
28:38since jesus says people should flee when
28:40they see it
28:41all anyone would have to do is calculate
28:43the days from that event
28:45to arrive at the day armageddon will
28:48occur
28:49commentaries from pre-tribbers either
28:51don't mention this problem at all
28:53or admit it's a problem but offer no
28:55solutions
28:56john mcarthur is a good example of the
28:58latter
28:59in his commentary he says nevertheless
29:03even with all those indisputable signs
29:05and precisely designated periods
29:08the exact day and hour will not be known
29:11by any human beings
29:13not even tribulation believers in
29:15advance
29:16although the lord gives no reason for
29:18their not knowing
29:21david guzik says something similar in
29:23his commentary
29:24in this there is a dilemma how can the
29:27day of jesus's coming be both completely
29:29unknown and at the same time be known to
29:32the day
29:33according to daniel 12 11.
29:37another problem caused by interpreting
29:39verse 31 as
29:40anything other than the rapture is that
29:43twice in these parables
29:44jesus says that one will be taken and
29:47one will be left if this is talking
29:50about the rapture then it flows quite
29:52naturally from the gathering in the
29:54clouds in verse 31
29:56and it makes perfect sense in context
29:59but because of the pre-tribulational
30:01teaching that verses 30 and 31
30:03are about armageddon pre-tribbers must
30:06interpret this
30:07one being taken here as either
30:09armageddon
30:10or the sheep and goat judgment basically
30:13they must
30:14see this being taken as a bad thing
30:17for unsaved people they must interpret
30:20it as a wicked person being taken to be
30:23judged
30:23instead of a righteous person being
30:25taken to their eternal reward
30:28it's a full reversal from historical
30:30christianity
30:31on this point in defense of this they
30:33will point to the parable in the
30:35previous verses about noah
30:37in which jesus talked about how the
30:38flood came and took
30:40people away they say that since the word
30:43sometimes translated took in that
30:45passage
30:46was about being taken for judgment the
30:49flood came and
30:50took the unbelievers away that is how
30:52the word
30:53taken in verses 40 and 41 should be
30:56understood
30:57that the one was taken for judgment not
31:00rescue
31:00the truth is the greek actually
31:02precludes this from being a possibility
31:05two different words are actually being
31:07used and it
31:08the one taken is to receive to oneself
31:12to receive
31:13warmly in fact it's the same word jesus
31:16uses
31:17in the departing discourse in john which
31:20i will not leave you but i will
31:21as orphans but i will come again and i
31:24will
31:24receive you unto myself and if i go to
31:28make a place
31:28ready for you i will come again and take
31:32you pierre lovano take you to be with me
31:35so that where i
31:36am you may be also and you know the way
31:39where i am going
31:40so here jesus uses the term peer and
31:43lovano
31:44and guess what every pre-trib
31:46interpreter
31:47believes that john 14 this john 14
31:50passage
31:51when jesus says i will take you to be
31:53with me
31:55it's referring to the rapture
31:58another argument for this one being
32:00taken
32:01being a reference to them being taken in
32:03the rapture
32:04and not being taken to judgment is that
32:07in the ten
32:08virgins parable a few verses later which
32:11is on the exact same subject
32:13which we know because it ends with the
32:15exact same warning
32:17watch because you do not know the day or
32:19the hour
32:20it is only the wise virgins that are
32:22taken
32:23not the foolish ones in other words the
32:26purpose of jesus's warning to watch
32:28because you don't know the day or the
32:30hour is so that you can be a part of
32:32those that are taken
32:34not left interpreting verse 31 as
32:37armageddon
32:38is also logically incompatible with the
32:41next parable
32:42in which jesus says the wicked people of
32:44the world will be carefree
32:46and unaware before his coming he says
32:49they will be marrying and being given
32:51in marriage and eating and drinking up
32:54until the very day
32:56of his coming this creates a huge
32:58problem since according to the pre-trib
33:00interpretation
33:01this would mean that the wicked are
33:03relatively carefree
33:05right up until the day of the battle of
33:07armageddon even though armageddon takes
33:09place at the very
33:10end of the seven year period after the
33:13trumpet and bowl judgments have been
33:15poured out
33:16to put this in context at this time
33:19every living thing
33:20in the sea will be dead all the fresh
33:23water in the world
33:24will be undrinkable the sun will be so
33:26hot
33:27that no one can bear it everyone will
33:30have been plagued with terrible sores
33:32and there will have been five solid
33:34months of torment
33:35from demonic scorpion-like beings
33:38directly from the pit of hell
33:40i could go on but i think it's safe to
33:42say people will have
33:44noticed that the wrath of god has
33:46started and that they would not be
33:48living care-free lives
33:49right up until the day the battle of
33:51armageddon begins
33:52there are precious few pre-trib
33:54commentaries that even attempt to
33:57justify this idea
33:58again the most common tactic is to not
34:01mention the problem
34:02at all but pre-tribulational scholars
34:06have recognized the various problems
34:08that interpreting verses 30 and 31 as
34:11armageddon
34:11has caused and in the last decade or so
34:14there have been two competing theories
34:16from them to answer their critics on
34:18these issues one from dr craig blazing
34:21of southwestern baptist theological
34:23seminary
34:24and one from dr john hart of moody bible
34:27institute
34:28while blazing's theory gained popularity
34:31from being featured in zondervan's
34:33three views on the rapture book it's a
34:35somewhat convoluted argument
34:37and in many ways it represents an
34:39entirely new way
34:41to teach pre-tribulationism as a result
34:43it seems to have had less acceptance
34:45among pre-tribulationists than heart's
34:48theory
34:48though it should be noted that in both
34:50cases these theories rely on the same
34:53underlying proof text but more on that
34:56later
34:56john hart wrote a paper in 2007 that
34:59simply agreed with the historical church
35:02and the pre-wrath rapture proponents
35:04that all of the parables after verse 36
35:07are in fact talking about the rapture
35:10and not armageddon
35:11thus avoiding the various contradictions
35:14we have been talking about
35:16the unique thing about heart's view is
35:18that he maintains that the first part of
35:20the olivet discourse
35:22including verse 30 and 31 is still a
35:25reference to armageddon as pre-tribbers
35:27have taught since the 1800s
35:29so he is essentially saying the first
35:32half of the olivet discourse
35:34has nothing to do with the second half
35:37that jesus was teaching his followers
35:39about the signs leading up to armageddon
35:41until verse 35
35:43and then for some reason he reversed the
35:46order of events
35:47and began to teach parables about the
35:49rapture in verse 36.
35:51both heart and blazing's theories rely
35:53on the argument
35:54that in verse 36 the greek phrase peri
35:57dei
35:58which is often translated now concerning
36:02represents a transition to an entirely
36:04new topic
36:06in other words they argue that this
36:08greek term
36:09gives them an excuse to decouple the
36:11first half of the olivet discourse
36:14from the second heart argues and blazing
36:16does the same
36:18that the transitional phrase in greek in
36:20verse 36
36:22peride which means uh now concerning
36:26or something along those lines uh
36:30is intended to distinguish or to mark
36:32the
36:33the change from answering one question
36:35to the other
36:36however since parry day basically means
36:39the same thing that the english phrase
36:42now concerning does it can mean
36:45now concerning something entirely
36:47different but it can
36:49also mean now concerning another aspect
36:52of the thing that was just discussed
36:54it's used both ways multiple times in
36:57the new testament
36:58in matthew it doesn't necessarily mean
37:01that the author is going to a
37:03new entirely different subject rather it
37:06means that he may be discussing another
37:08aspect of the central focus at hand
37:10which is exactly what's happening in
37:12matthew 24.
37:13the parry day line in verse 36 starts
37:16off
37:17now concerning the day or the hour so
37:20this is about the specific
37:22timing of something heart wants us to
37:24believe this is the first line on a
37:26totally new subject
37:28but the problem is that this line is
37:30obviously a continuation of the question
37:33about the timing of the events begun in
37:35the parable of the fig tree
37:37just before this the parable of the fig
37:40tree teaches that the followers of
37:42christ
37:42should be able to determine the general
37:45time of his coming
37:46by the signs jesus just described in
37:48matthew 24
37:50verses 4 to 31 and that his disciples
37:53could know his coming was near
37:55by looking for the signs in the same way
37:58that they could know
37:58summer is near by observing the leaves
38:01on a fig tree
38:02so with the fig tree parable jesus says
38:05that we will be able to know the general
38:07time
38:08but in the next line he says concerning
38:11or peridae the day or the hour
38:15i.e the specific time of my coming
38:18no one will know it is a qualification
38:21then because
38:22we do not know the exact day or
38:25hour so we know the season but we do not
38:28know the day or hour so these two things
38:31complement one another and they must be
38:33taken together
38:35another criticism of heart's view
38:37revolves around the term
38:38parusia which is translated as coming
38:42since these new views of heart and
38:44blazing separate
38:46matthew 24 beginning at verse 36 from
38:49the previous section
38:50it would mean the question the disciples
38:52asked about the parousia in verse 3
38:55is different from the answers about the
38:57perusia given by jesus in verses 37 and
39:0139
39:02they have to say that what jesus refers
39:05to as the coming of the son of man
39:08is different from the coming of the son
39:10of man in matthew 36 to 41.
39:14that's very difficult to maintain
39:16exegetically
39:17there's no
39:20evidence within the text not even the
39:24transitional phrase peride that suggests
39:27he's shifting from
39:28one coming to some other coming
39:33this is clear because when the disciples
39:36ask the question
39:38they say what is the sign of your coming
39:41and jesus
39:42just uses that same language his parusia
39:46in both parts of the text he doesn't
39:47give any indication that he's switching
39:49topics the bottom line is that the old
39:52pre-trib view which has the parables at
39:54the end of the olivet discourse
39:56talking about armageddon instead of the
39:58rapture is a brand new argument with
40:01multiple contradictions
40:02and pre-tribbers who know know it
40:05but the supposed fixes for this major
40:08problem
40:08proposed in the last decade or so which
40:11revolve around the idea that the first
40:13and second halves of the olivet
40:15discourse
40:16have nothing to do with one another is
40:18an even worse argument
40:20and now hopefully some of you know it
40:25[Music]
40:32now concerning the coming of our lord
40:34jesus christ
40:35and are being gathered together to him
40:38we ask you brothers
40:39not to be quickly shaken in mind or
40:41alarmed
40:42either by a spirit or a spoken word or a
40:45letter
40:46seeming to be from us to the effect that
40:48the day of the lord has come
40:50let no one deceive you in any way for
40:53that day will not come unless the
40:55rebellion comes first
40:56and the man of lawlessness is revealed
40:59the son of destruction
41:00who opposes and exalts himself against
41:03every so-called god
41:04or object of worship so that he takes
41:07his seat in the temple of god
41:09proclaiming himself to be god
41:13second thessalonians 2 verses 1 to 4
41:17the most problematic passage for
41:19pre-tribulationists
41:21is 2nd thessalonians chapter 2. 2
41:24thessalonians was written by the apostle
41:26paul
41:27in part to refute a false teaching
41:29circulating at the time
41:31that the thessalonians had missed the
41:33rapture and were in the day of the lord
41:36paul's message to the thessalonians was
41:38very simple
41:39he told them not to worry they had not
41:42missed the rapture
41:43and were therefore not in the day of the
41:45lord
41:46and so the way he disabuses the
41:48thessalonians from that notion
41:51is he says certain things have to happen
41:53first uh and those things
41:55were the apostasy and the revelation of
41:57the man of lawlessness
41:59that is the antichrist what we would
42:00call the antichrist there are two main
42:03reasons why this is a problem for the
42:05pre-tribulationists
42:06the first is that as we have seen
42:08pre-tribbers maintain that there are no
42:11events that must occur before the
42:13rapture and here paul blatantly
42:15says there are two events that must
42:18occur first
42:19the rebellion sometimes translated as
42:22apostasy and the revealing of the man of
42:25lawlessness
42:26if paul had taught pre-tribulationism
42:28his simplest answer would be
42:30no the rapture hasn't occurred yet
42:34instead of no there are certain things
42:36that have to happen
42:37first and as soon as you say there are
42:40certain things that have to happen first
42:43you've undermined pre-tribulationism so
42:46pre-tribulationists have a very
42:47difficult time
42:49in my opinion uh making
42:52second thessalonians too fit with their
42:54their
42:55thinking second thessalonians 2 poses
42:58the greatest
42:59problem for the pre-trip position
43:03or certainly is one of the greatest
43:07problem passages for the pre-trip
43:10position
43:12because paul does exactly
43:16what the majority of pre-tribbers
43:19say um does not occur
43:23and that is he gives us a list
43:27a chronology of events specifically
43:31connected to the rapture we know that
43:33paul was teaching that these two events
43:35would occur
43:36before the day of the lord in part
43:38because he uses the specific greek word
43:41proton or protoss which is often
43:44translated
43:45first and is specifically used here to
43:48describe
43:49when these two events would take place
43:51in relationship to the day of the lord
43:54in the greek the greek is very specific
43:56it uses the term a protos and it means
43:58before or
43:59first so paul here is teaching
44:02explicitly
44:03that two events have to happen before
44:06the day of the lord
44:07yeah the fact that paul says these
44:08things must happen
44:10first is important he doesn't just say
44:13these things must happen but these must
44:14happen
44:15first the second problem for
44:17pre-tribulationists
44:19is that at least one of the precursors
44:21mentioned here
44:22the revealing of the man of lawlessness
44:25is an event that takes place
44:27at the midpoint of the seven year period
44:30and most significantly this revealing of
44:33the man of lawlessness
44:35which paul describes in saying he will
44:37set himself up in god's temple
44:39proclaiming himself to be god
44:41which places the revealing of the
44:44antichrist at the midpoint
44:47so the coming of our lord and our being
44:49gathered to him
44:51cannot occur until after the midpoint of
44:54the 70th week
44:55take a look at this chart detailing the
44:57views of five prominent
44:59pre-tribulationists
45:00about 2 thessalonians 2 and you get a
45:03sense that they have fundamentally
45:05different
45:06often mutually exclusive ways of
45:08explaining this section of scripture
45:11but despite this confusion there are
45:13some pre-trib
45:14arguments about 2nd thessalonians 2 that
45:17are more common than others
45:19for example the most common way that
45:21pre-tribulationists deal with this
45:23is to say that paul did not actually
45:25mean that these two events would happen
45:27before the day of the lord rather he
45:30meant that these two events will happen
45:32during or be features of the day of the
45:35lord
45:36for example in his commentary david
45:39guzik says of this problem
45:41paul will not describe events which must
45:43precede the rapture
45:45but events that are concrete evidence of
45:47the day of the lord
45:48they are saying that paul wasn't saying
45:51these two events would come
45:52before the day of the lord rather paul
45:55was just
45:56naming things that happen during the day
45:58of the lord
45:59despite this denial that paul meant
46:01these things would happen before the day
46:04of the lord
46:04being one of the most common ways
46:06pre-tribulationists deal with this
46:08problem
46:09pre-tribulationists never seem to
46:11explain why they feel it's okay to
46:13ignore the grammar of this passage
46:16such as the greek word proton which
46:18means that these two events
46:20must come before the day of the lord
46:23you can confirm this by looking at other
46:25places in the new testament where the
46:27same greek construction occurs
46:30the same conditional word aeon may
46:33paired with proton always means
46:36one thing comes before the other our law
46:39doesn't condem a man
46:40unless aeon may it first
46:44protan hears from him and learns what he
46:47is doing
46:48does it another example of the same
46:51construction is in mark
46:523 27 but no one can enter a strong man's
46:56house to plunder his property
46:58unless aeon may he first
47:01proton ties up the strong man then
47:05tate indeed the house can be plundered
47:08mark 3 verse 27 these two examples that
47:12share the same greek construction with 2
47:14thessalonians 2
47:16verse 3 confirm that the correct reading
47:18here
47:19is that before the day of the lord
47:21begins
47:22two events must happen first the
47:24rebellion
47:26and the revelation of the man of
47:27lawlessness so at the end of the day
47:30with all these interpretations the
47:32800-pound gorilla is the word
47:34protos another popular way that
47:37pre-tribulationists try to deal with 2nd
47:39thessalonians 2
47:41relates to the word rebellion sometimes
47:44translated as
47:45falling away or apostasy in verse 3
47:49it is one of the two things that are
47:51supposed to happen before the day of the
47:52lord
47:53this is usually understood to mean a
47:56falling away from the faith
47:58that is christians apostatizing or
48:00leaving the faith of christianity
48:02recently some pre-tribulationists have
48:05put forward the
48:06idea that the word behind this word
48:08rebellion
48:09apostasia in the greek means the rapture
48:14the idea is that paul was teaching that
48:16the rapture would happen
48:17first and then the man of lawlessness
48:20would be revealed
48:21this is usually done to preserve the
48:23all-important pre-trib doctrine of
48:25imminence
48:26that no events can come before the
48:28rapture
48:30but in second thessalonians they come to
48:32this text
48:33they got real problem they know it's
48:34difficult they know it poses a great
48:37problem for their position
48:38and so what do they do they take a word
48:41apostasy
48:42say aha this word is referring
48:46to the rapture the falling away the
48:50taking away
48:51of the believers on the earth this
48:54interpretation has two
48:56serious problems the first is the
48:59complete lack of
49:00any evidence that the word apostasia can
49:03mean the rapture
49:05and the second is that such an
49:06interpretation would mean that paul is
49:08making a nonsensical
49:10and utterly useless point in this
49:12passage
49:13pre-tribulationists claim that the
49:15apostasia can mean the rapture
49:17because the word is sometimes translated
49:20in early english bibles like the tyndale
49:22and geneva bibles
49:23as the english word depart they would
49:26say that if the word can mean
49:28depart in english it might also be a
49:30reference to the rapture
49:32where believers will depart the earth
49:35the problem is that the word is never
49:37used that way
49:39when the early english bibles used the
49:41english word depart
49:42to define apostasia they meant it to be
49:45understood in a non-spatial sense
49:48as in he departed from the faith or
49:52he departed from sound doctrine the word
49:55is never used
49:56to describe physical departure as in he
49:59departed from his house
50:01or as in our case he departed from the
50:04earth
50:04it always means a non-physical
50:07departure such as for example a
50:09political rebellion or a
50:12an apostasy from the faith the word is
50:15used
50:16five other times in the bible and each
50:18time
50:19it's used in a political or religious
50:21sense
50:22never in a physical sense even if you
50:25expanded
50:26your search to include all of the
50:28secular writings in koine greek
50:30you wouldn't find the word used in a
50:32spatial or physical sense
50:34show me a historical
50:37reference where this word is used
50:41that way any writing
50:44any historical writings 200 years before
50:47the new testament
50:48200 years after new testament in defense
50:51of this view
50:52some pre-tribbers will go so far as to
50:54committing the so-called
50:55root fallacy what they will do is say
50:58that the root for apostasia
51:00which is probably the greek word
51:02aphistomy
51:03can mean a physical departure this
51:06method of interpretation is
51:08universally rejected by greek scholars
51:10because
51:11it's not a reliable way to determine the
51:13definition of words
51:15to give you an example from english the
51:17root word for
51:18nice in latin actually means to be
51:21ignorant
51:22but no one thinks that the sentence john
51:24is nice
51:25has anything to do with john being
51:28ignorant
51:29bringing up the root of apostasia is a
51:31desperate attempt
51:33to defend a particularly bad theory
51:36the second reason this argument makes no
51:38sense
51:39is that if the word apostasia means the
51:41rapture
51:42then paul's argument to the
51:44thessalonians is essentially that
51:46the rapture can't happen until the
51:49rapture
51:50happens the
51:53fatal problem with this is paul says
51:56that these things happen before
51:58the coming of our lord and are being
52:00gathered to him which is the rapture
52:02and so it is illogical to say
52:06that the rapture must occur
52:10before the rapture occurs what it's
52:12doing is it's making paul
52:13say that well the rapture can't come
52:16before the rapture
52:18to their credit this apostasia is the
52:21same thing as the rapture theory
52:23is openly rejected by the vast majority
52:26of pre-trib scholars
52:27even their own scholars
52:30such as paul feinberg and john walvoord
52:33two of the most esteemed
52:35pre-tribulational scholars have
52:38completely rejected this interpretation
52:41uh they haven't even convinced all
52:43pre-tribulationists
52:44of this who argue that the apostasy in
52:48greek hay apostasia
52:52means the rapture by that paul means the
52:54rapture
52:57that's a very difficult case to make if
52:59not an impossible case to make
53:02some pre-tribulationists who don't want
53:04to play the kind of games with the text
53:06we just saw
53:07will actually agree that paul wrote that
53:09the apostasy and the revealing of the
53:11man of lawlessness
53:12will occur first or before the day of
53:15the lord
53:16take for example john wolverd and john
53:18macarthur
53:19both men in their commentaries tell
53:21their readers that the two events
53:23the rebellion and the revealing of the
53:25antichrist would occur before the day of
53:28the lord
53:28which of course we agree with but for
53:31them it's a very odd thing to say
53:33since in other places they teach that
53:35the day of the lord is a seven year
53:37period
53:37which is immediately preceded by the
53:39rapture
53:40and since both men also agree that the
53:42revealing of the man of lawlessness in
53:44verse 3
53:45is a reference to the abomination of
53:47desolation which happens at the midpoint
53:50they are essentially saying that
53:52something which they know
53:53happens at the midpoint occurs before
53:56the day of the lord
53:58the obvious result is that the day of
54:00the lord can't be the seven year model
54:02that they teach in other places
54:04the rapture must start sometime after
54:07the midpoint
54:08this massive contradiction is not
54:11brought up
54:11or explained in either of their
54:14commentaries
54:15astute viewers have already noticed
54:17another contradiction
54:19which is how can they teach that these
54:21two events occur
54:22before the day of the lord but not
54:25before the rapture
54:26since like most pre-tribulationists they
54:28teach that the day of the lord occurs
54:30immediately after the rapture with no
54:33significant gap
54:34between the rapture and the day of the
54:36lord in other words
54:38since neither walvard or macarthur are
54:40rapture gap theorists
54:42in their view if something is before the
54:45day of the lord
54:46it is necessarily before the rapture as
54:49well
54:50so why are they essentially teaching
54:52here what they certainly don't agree
54:54with
54:54in other teachings that there are events
54:57before the rapture
54:58it's not clear as i said they don't
55:01mention these serious contradictions in
55:03their commentaries
55:04this could be called the forgetful paul
55:07view
55:08because in their commentaries and
55:10sermons they will correctly teach
55:11that in verse 1 the words coming and
55:14gathering
55:15are in fact references to the rapture
55:18this is not a debate among pre-trib or
55:20pre-wrathless pre-tribs and pre-raptors
55:22agree
55:23that this reference the gathering to be
55:25with him in in second thessalonians
55:27chapter two verse one
55:28uh is the rapture but they will go
55:31through the rest of their commentaries
55:33talking about these two
55:34precursors to the day of the lord as if
55:36they are only precursors to the day of
55:39the lord
55:40as if they have nothing to do with the
55:42rapture
55:43it's as if paul forgot to talk about the
55:45rapture even though he said that was
55:48specifically what he was going to talk
55:50about in this section
55:52he says now regarding the arrival of our
55:54lord jesus christ
55:56and our being gathered to him let me
55:58just stop there
56:00well paul hasn't made any connections
56:03here he's just saying
56:04now i'm going to talk about this now
56:06isn't it
56:07sort of odd if he says now i'm going to
56:09talk about the rapture
56:10and the parousia and then he doesn't
56:13mention it
56:14ever again well he actually does he's um
56:17he's unpacking what it means the day of
56:20the lord
56:21pre-wrath solves this problem by
56:23understanding that these two events will
56:25occur
56:26before the rapture and before the day of
56:28the lord and that paul is using both
56:31concepts interchangeably here as he
56:33often does in the new testament
56:36pre-wrath also understands the revealing
56:38of the antichrist in verse 3
56:40is a reference to the abomination of
56:42desolation
56:44at the midpoint of the seven year period
56:46they also see the falling away or
56:48rebellion in verse 3
56:50as a reference to the falling away that
56:53jesus mentions in association with the
56:55abomination of desolation
56:57in matthew 24. in fact this clear
57:00and consistent connection between
57:02matthew 24
57:03and 2nd thessalonians 2 is a really
57:06important point
57:08a fundamental problem of the way that
57:11pre-tribulational interpreters
57:13interpret the apostle paul is they don't
57:17recognize that
57:18paul is getting his teaching from jesus
57:21for example just look at the
57:23similarities in matthew 24
57:26before the rapture in verse 31 what does
57:29jesus say must come first
57:31you guessed it a falling away and the
57:34abomination of desolation
57:36and it's only after those events occur
57:38that you can expect to see the sign
57:40of the impending day of the lord in
57:42verse 29
57:44and the rapture in verses 30 and 31 just
57:47before it begins
57:49jesus's teaching on the end times is a
57:51perfect mirror to paul's in terms of the
57:53timing of events
57:55which is probably why paul said that he
57:57got this doctrine about the rapture
57:59quote from the lord how do we know
58:03that the apostle paul received
58:06his teachings from the olive discourse
58:10from jesus's olive discourse well we
58:11know this
58:13we know this because there are
58:16at least 30 parallels between
58:19paul's teaching in first and second
58:21thessalonians and between the olive
58:22discourses 30 cohesive
58:25links between their teachings it's not
58:28just pre-rathers that see the connection
58:30between
58:31first and second thessalonians and
58:33matthew 24.
58:34just check the margins of your favorite
58:36bible ever since cross references have
58:39been invented
58:40they have been linking these two
58:41passages it's only the
58:43pre-tribulationists
58:44who can't accept that these passages are
58:47parallel to one another
58:48if you're a pre-tribulationist just you
58:50know lay your presuppositions aside for
58:52a moment and just
58:53read second thessalonians two without
58:56your traditions
58:57and see what it says
59:08there are several passages in the book
59:10of revelation supporting the idea that
59:12the church
59:13will face the antichrist persecution
59:15just before the rapture
59:17and that both the rapture and the day of
59:20the lord
59:21will not begin until after the midpoint
59:24of the seven year period this is all of
59:27course
59:27contrary to the traditional pre-trib
59:29model which teaches that the rapture
59:31will
59:32occur before the seven year period
59:34begins
59:35in the book of revelation most of the
59:37events that take place in the book
59:39correspond to various stages of a
59:41symbolic scroll being opened
59:44for example there are seven seals on the
59:46scroll
59:47and each time a seal is removed a
59:49prophetic event takes place
59:51after all seven of the seals are removed
59:54seven angels with seven trumpets are
59:56introduced
59:57and one at a time each angel blows their
1:00:00trumpet
1:00:01and a new prophetic event takes place
1:00:03until finally
1:00:04seven angels with seven bowls of wrath
1:00:07appear
1:00:08and seven more events take place there
1:00:10are a variety of different viewpoints in
1:00:12pre-tribulation pre-tribulationism
1:00:14as to the exact timing of the events
1:00:16that correspond to these seals
1:00:18trumpets and bowls the main difference
1:00:21between pre-tribulationism and pre-wrath
1:00:23in this regard
1:00:24is that most pre-tribulationists
1:00:27believed that all
1:00:28the seals in revelation chapter 6 as
1:00:31well as the trumpets and bowls
1:00:32found in later chapters are events that
1:00:35take place
1:00:36during the day of the lord's wrath
1:00:38pre-wrathers believe
1:00:40the seven seals on the outside of this
1:00:42proverbial scroll
1:00:43are not the wrath of god but rather
1:00:46only the contents of the scroll
1:00:48represented in the book by the trumpets
1:00:50and bowls
1:00:51are the day of the lord's wrath and so
1:00:54these seven
1:00:56seals are preconditions that need to be
1:00:59met before the scroll is opened
1:01:02it is only after all seven seals are
1:01:05broken that the scroll can be opened
1:01:07and then the wrath of god unfolds and
1:01:09this is exactly what we see
1:01:12in the flow of revelation six through
1:01:14eight
1:01:15prerathers point out that the events
1:01:17that take place
1:01:18during the seals are mostly things that
1:01:21are the direct result of the antichrist
1:01:23evil workings not the result of god's
1:01:26wrath
1:01:27for example the first seal is the
1:01:29introduction of the antichrist as the
1:01:31writer on the white horse
1:01:33the second seal is about the wars that
1:01:35the antichrist will fight
1:01:37as he gains power then in the next two
1:01:40seals you have famines
1:01:41and people being killed in large numbers
1:01:44quote
1:01:44with the sword the fifth seal is an
1:01:47interesting one
1:01:48and this is where many pre-rathers begin
1:01:50their argument
1:01:52that these seals cannot be a part of
1:01:54god's wrath
1:01:55the martyrs that are depicted
1:01:59in the revelation at the fifth
1:02:02seal in my opinion is one of the
1:02:05strongest
1:02:06arguments for the pre-wrath position
1:02:08pre-tribulationists
1:02:09claim that the sills
1:02:12on the scroll the seven sealed scroll
1:02:14the seals are all of god's wrath
1:02:18but that's contradicted by the fifth
1:02:21sill
1:02:22in revelation 6 9 it says now when the
1:02:24lamb opened the fifth seal
1:02:26i saw under the altar the souls of those
1:02:29who had been
1:02:29violently killed because of the word of
1:02:32god
1:02:33and because of the testimony they had
1:02:35given they cried out with a loud voice
1:02:38how long sovereign master holy and true
1:02:42before you judge those who live on the
1:02:44earth and avenge our blood
1:02:46each of them was given a long white robe
1:02:48and they were told to rest for a little
1:02:50longer until the full number was reached
1:02:52of both their fellow servants and their
1:02:54brothers
1:02:55who were going to be killed just as they
1:02:58have been
1:02:59but they asked god when are you going to
1:03:02start
1:03:02your wrath on the people on the earth
1:03:06who are responsible for our death that
1:03:08is powerful in my opinion
1:03:11because to me that explicitly
1:03:15declares that the wrath of god that
1:03:18eschatological wrath has not begun
1:03:21how long o lord until you vindicate our
1:03:24blood on those who dwell on the earth
1:03:25in other words it hasn't been happening
1:03:28yet up to the fifth seal
1:03:30they're told wait a little while until
1:03:33the rest of your brethren
1:03:34are killed and then
1:03:38the sixth seal is open and the great day
1:03:40of god's wrath
1:03:42has arrived there are very few
1:03:45pre-trib responses to this issue but one
1:03:48example is from robert thomas
1:03:50who though he doesn't say it directly
1:03:52implies that what the martyrs were
1:03:54actually doing
1:03:55is crying out for god's wrath to finish
1:03:58in other words the martyrs are crying
1:04:01out for the
1:04:02end of god's wrath not for god's wrath
1:04:05to begin the problem of course is that
1:04:08the plain reading
1:04:09in both the greek and english of this
1:04:11phrase
1:04:12how long before you judge and avenge our
1:04:15blood
1:04:16means that no judgment of any kind has
1:04:19begun
1:04:20at that point this is reiterated in the
1:04:23next verse
1:04:24when god tells them to wait a little
1:04:26while longer
1:04:27until the full number of christian
1:04:29martyrs are killed
1:04:31both grammatically and contextually god
1:04:34has not begun his judgment on the wicked
1:04:36at this point
1:04:38which is probably why we found so few
1:04:40pre-trib
1:04:41commentators willing to try to explain
1:04:43this passage
1:04:44at all this causes another problem for
1:04:47pre-tribbers
1:04:48because if god's wrath has begun by this
1:04:50point as they say
1:04:52it would mean that these christian
1:04:53martyrs in the fifth seal
1:04:55had been going through god's wrath which
1:04:58contradicts the doctrine that christians
1:05:00will not
1:05:00go through the wrath of god derived from
1:05:03first thessalonians
1:05:045 9 and other places a doctrine that is
1:05:08agreed upon by all signs
1:05:10of this debate god promises that that
1:05:13believers
1:05:14will not have to experience the wrath of
1:05:16god the day of the lord's wrath
1:05:19and yet pre-tribulationists contradict
1:05:22themselves
1:05:24when they say that the fifth seal is
1:05:25god's wrath you can't have
1:05:28both pre-tribulationists try to get
1:05:30around this by calling these christians
1:05:33tribulation saints they define
1:05:35tribulation saints
1:05:37as people left behind in the rapture who
1:05:39become christians
1:05:40during the day of the lord well a common
1:05:42argument that i hear often
1:05:44is that oh well these they're these
1:05:47these believers they're not
1:05:48quote unquote part of the church uh
1:05:51they're
1:05:51they're quote-unquote tribulation saints
1:05:53and the
1:05:54they'll even go to the extent not all of
1:05:56them but some of them will
1:05:58actually say you know because they
1:05:59didn't accept christ before the rapture
1:06:01this is like a
1:06:02certain judgment on them i'm sorry
1:06:05that's
1:06:05absurd and it also again it contradicts
1:06:07what paul says
1:06:09in first thessalonians chapter five is
1:06:12that we are promised exemption from
1:06:14god's wrath
1:06:16some pre-tribulationists bill salus for
1:06:19one
1:06:19have proposed an entirely new theory
1:06:22which removes the fifth seal from the
1:06:24seventieth week
1:06:25altogether salus places the first five
1:06:28seals
1:06:28before the seven year period which
1:06:30avoids the fifth seal martyr problem
1:06:33but this model is almost unheard of in
1:06:35pre-trib
1:06:36circles while many pre-tribbers argue
1:06:38about where to put the first three seals
1:06:41and some pre-tribbers do in fact put the
1:06:43first three seals
1:06:44before the seven year period begins
1:06:47placing the fourth and fifth seals
1:06:49before the seven years
1:06:50is fairly radical because they have such
1:06:53strong ties to the midpoint of the seven
1:06:55year period
1:06:56but it does have the one benefit of
1:06:58keeping these
1:06:59fifth seal martyrs out of the wrath of
1:07:01god and thus avoiding this major
1:07:04contradiction
1:07:05the next bit of evidence to which
1:07:06pre-rather's point to show that the
1:07:08wrath of god has not begun during the
1:07:11seals
1:07:12is the celestial disturbance sign found
1:07:14in the next seal
1:07:16the sixth seal this is the sign which
1:07:19joel 2 verse 31 says will occur
1:07:22before the day of the lord so if this
1:07:25sign in the sun moon and stars in
1:07:28revelation
1:07:286 is the same one that joel talked about
1:07:32then the day of the lord cannot have
1:07:34begun by this point
1:07:35because this sign happens before the day
1:07:38of the lord begins
1:07:40we see evidence that this cosmic
1:07:42disturbance sign in revelation
1:07:446 is in fact the same one that announces
1:07:46the day of the lord's wrath
1:07:48because as a result of people seeing
1:07:50this sign in the heavens
1:07:52we see the following reaction then the
1:07:54kings of the earth
1:07:56and the great ones and the generals and
1:07:58the rich
1:07:59and the powerful and everyone slave and
1:08:02free
1:08:03hid themselves in the caves and among
1:08:05the rocks of the mountains
1:08:07calling to the mountains and rocks fall
1:08:10on us
1:08:10and hide us from the face of him who is
1:08:12seated on the throne
1:08:14and from the wrath of the lamb for the
1:08:16great day of their wrath has come
1:08:19and who can stand revelation
1:08:226 verses 15-17
1:08:25here again a plain reading shows that
1:08:27the people of the earth believe
1:08:29that the wrath of god is about to begin
1:08:32at the sixth seal
1:08:34the earth dwellers are diving into the
1:08:36rocks
1:08:38because it is now time
1:08:41for the day of recompense for the day
1:08:44of uh repaying the world
1:08:48for persecuting the people of god
1:08:52in an attempt to deal with this damning
1:08:54evidence that the seals cannot be the
1:08:56wrath of god
1:08:58pre-tribbers will typically argue about
1:09:00the tense form of the greek word for
1:09:02has come in revelation 6 17.
1:09:06many pre-tribbers say that since the
1:09:08phrase has come
1:09:09is in the greek errorist tense form it
1:09:12is in the past
1:09:13tense in this case they would prefer a
1:09:16translation such as
1:09:17the wrath of god has been occurring
1:09:20pre-tribulationists
1:09:22generally want to argue the day of the
1:09:23lord began with the first
1:09:25seal and so when people say the great
1:09:28day of god's wrath has arrived
1:09:30all they're doing is finally recognizing
1:09:32that they've been experiencing the great
1:09:33day of god's wrath
1:09:35a growing number of greek scholars
1:09:37strongly disagree with this idea
1:09:39pointing out that the reason any greek
1:09:41word is rendered in the past
1:09:42present or future tense is determined by
1:09:45the context
1:09:47not from greek tense form this can be
1:09:50seen by reviewing
1:09:51other instances in the bible including
1:09:53in revelation 19 verse 7
1:09:55where the errorist indicative tense form
1:09:58is clearly
1:09:58not supposed to be translated in the
1:10:00past tense it says
1:10:02the wedding of the lamb has come which
1:10:05is
1:10:06obviously not supposed to be translated
1:10:08the wedding of the lamb
1:10:10has already come take the text at face
1:10:12value
1:10:13allow the text to speak the fact that
1:10:17the arrest is used more than 11 times in
1:10:19that sixth seal
1:10:22all of a sudden just the one occurrence
1:10:24of it though has such
1:10:25high and important significance seems to
1:10:28me to betray the very system you're
1:10:30trying to build
1:10:31also consider the actions of the people
1:10:34in this verse
1:10:35they are hiding themselves in the rocks
1:10:37because they saw the very same sign
1:10:40joel said would herald the wrath of god
1:10:42these people didn't hide
1:10:44themselves during the first five seals
1:10:46what has changed
1:10:47other than the celestial announcement
1:10:49that the wrath of god
1:10:51was about to begin another line of
1:10:53evidence for the pre-wrath position in
1:10:55revelation
1:10:566 comes from the recognition that the
1:10:58six seals
1:10:59line up perfectly with the teaching of
1:11:01christ during his olivet discourse
1:11:04revelation 6 is a revelation to a lot of
1:11:07people when you start to compare it
1:11:10to matthew chapter 24 of the olivet
1:11:12discourse and this is a
1:11:14very key part of pre-wrath rapturism is
1:11:17actually something that was key
1:11:18to me really coming into the position
1:11:22juxtaposing both the flow of
1:11:26matthew 24 and revelation chapter 6
1:11:29shows a lot of parallels the opening of
1:11:31the seals
1:11:33is parallel to the
1:11:36elements of jesus's discussion in
1:11:39matthew 24. so
1:11:41uh the writer on the white horse
1:11:43corresponds to the false christs
1:11:45uh the writer on the red horse is war uh
1:11:48the black horse is famine the sickly
1:11:52horse is
1:11:52death and then there's martyrs the first
1:11:56three sills
1:11:58these are corresponded to jesus's
1:12:00beginning birth pains
1:12:02the fourth seal is correlated
1:12:05to the persecution of the antichrist
1:12:08great tribulation
1:12:10and the fifth seal is part of the great
1:12:11tribulation too but it's showing the
1:12:13result of the
1:12:16persecution and that is martyrdom that's
1:12:18why it's called the fifth seal
1:12:21martyrs in case there is any doubt we
1:12:23are on the right track
1:12:25the next thing mentioned after the
1:12:26persecution in matthew 24
1:12:29is the celestial disturbances sign in
1:12:31the sun moon and stars
1:12:33which we now know means the day of the
1:12:35lord is about to begin
1:12:37we see this exact same sign in the sixth
1:12:40seal
1:12:41which all but confirms that this
1:12:43parallel between matthew and the seals
1:12:45in revelation 6
1:12:47is correct in the book of revelation in
1:12:50exactly the right location as you're
1:12:51reading it sequentially
1:12:53you'll find a clear discussion of
1:12:56something happening to the sun
1:12:58the moon and the stars this is the clear
1:13:02identifier indicator that god's wrath
1:13:05is about to commence it is about to pour
1:13:08down
1:13:09on a wicked world now the reason why
1:13:11this is so
1:13:12key is because in both
1:13:16the olivet discourse and the book of
1:13:18revelation
1:13:19we have this sign occurring
1:13:23and that which occurs in the wake of
1:13:26this sign
1:13:28is an indication of deliverance
1:13:31it is immediately after the distress of
1:13:33those days
1:13:34that jesus appears in great power and
1:13:36glory and gathers his elect
1:13:38from the four winds what so few people
1:13:42realize
1:13:43is that you can see the rapture directly
1:13:45after the sun
1:13:46moon and star sign in revelation as well
1:13:49though there is a kind of interlude
1:13:51after the sign
1:13:52and before the wrath of god for example
1:13:55the very next thing we see
1:13:57is an angel saying do not harm the earth
1:14:00or the sea
1:14:01or the trees until we have sealed the
1:14:04servants of our god
1:14:05on their foreheads then these angels go
1:14:08about sealing the 144 thousand to
1:14:11protect them from the wrath
1:14:12that is about to come you get this
1:14:15interlude in chapter 7
1:14:17and the interlude is explicitly
1:14:20centered around protecting people from
1:14:23god's judgment and so it says be
1:14:26hold on before don't let any wind blow
1:14:30on the trees and things like that
1:14:32but before any of that happens we want
1:14:35you to seal the servants of god
1:14:37on their forehead directly after the 144
1:14:41000 are sealed
1:14:42we see the result of the rapture from
1:14:45the viewpoint of heaven
1:14:47a great multitude that no one could
1:14:49count
1:14:50from every nation from all tribes and
1:14:52peoples and languages
1:14:54standing before the throne and before
1:14:57the lamb
1:14:58clothed in white robes with palm
1:15:00branches in their hands
1:15:02revelation 7 verse 9 be
1:15:05we are given the final proof that the
1:15:07pre-wrath view of this timeline
1:15:09is correct a few verses later when the
1:15:11angel tells jon
1:15:12exactly who this group is these are the
1:15:15ones coming
1:15:16out of the great tribulation they have
1:15:19washed their robes and made them white
1:15:21in the blood of the lamb revelation 7
1:15:2514 be remember the great tribulation
1:15:29is not a seven year period theologically
1:15:32speaking
1:15:33it is the persecution that begins just
1:15:35after the midpoint
1:15:37and extends until it is cut short by the
1:15:39rapture
1:15:40this phrase out of the great tribulation
1:15:43then confirms the pre-wrath timeline
1:15:46and it means that the day of the lord
1:15:48will not begin
1:15:49until after the sixth seal and that the
1:15:52rapture occurs at some point after the
1:15:54midpoint of the seventieth week of
1:15:56daniel
1:15:57and finally that the church will face
1:15:59the persecution of the antichrist
1:16:01before the rapture there's a depiction
1:16:04of the church's appearance in heaven
1:16:07apparently as a means of protecting them
1:16:09from god's wrath
1:16:11between the arrival of the great day of
1:16:14god's wrath
1:16:15and the actual execution of the great
1:16:17day of god's wrath
1:16:19that's a pre-wrath rapture regarding
1:16:21this multitude in heaven
1:16:23pre-tribbers would emphatically declare
1:16:25that this group is not the raptured
1:16:27church
1:16:28but rather the so-called tribulation
1:16:30saints
1:16:31but if you press them about why they
1:16:33must be tribulation saints and not the
1:16:35church
1:16:36they will answer with a classic circular
1:16:38argument
1:16:39they don't believe the church will be in
1:16:41the great tribulation
1:16:43so this group can't be the church there
1:16:46are
1:16:46as far as i know no other arguments for
1:16:49the existence of the tribulation saints
1:16:51view
1:16:52you may be wondering why
1:16:54pre-tribulationists believe that the
1:16:55seals in revelation
1:16:576 have to be a part of the day of the
1:16:59lord's wrath especially in light of all
1:17:01this evidence to the contrary
1:17:03do they have some proof text i'm not
1:17:05telling you about
1:17:07not really the most common defense
1:17:09pre-tribulationists offer
1:17:11is that the seals are the wrath of god
1:17:13because
1:17:14jesus opens them this argument comes
1:17:16from revelation chapter 5
1:17:18verse 9 which says and they sang a new
1:17:21song
1:17:22saying worthy are you to take the scroll
1:17:25and to open its seals
1:17:27for you were slain and by your blood you
1:17:30ransomed people for god
1:17:31from every tribe and language and people
1:17:34and nation they argue essentially that
1:17:37since
1:17:38jesus was the only one worthy to break
1:17:40the seals and open the scroll
1:17:42the seals as well as the scroll must be
1:17:45judgment
1:17:46since in other places in the bible jesus
1:17:48is said to be the only one worthy to
1:17:50judge the world
1:17:51the problem of course is that it doesn't
1:17:54logically follow that just because jesus
1:17:56is the only one worthy to break the
1:17:58seals and open the scroll
1:18:00that the seals on the scroll are
1:18:02judgment
1:18:03this verse in revelation 5 verse 9 would
1:18:06make just as much sense in the pre-wrath
1:18:08view
1:18:09in which the scroll's contents not the
1:18:12seals of the scroll
1:18:13are the actual judgment this is often
1:18:16the sole
1:18:16argument from pre-tribulationists to
1:18:19prove that the seals are the wrath of
1:18:21god
1:18:21and in my opinion it's rather weak
1:18:24especially when you compare it to the
1:18:26actual explicit biblical evidence we
1:18:28have seen here
1:18:29and that brings us to something we have
1:18:31referenced many times in this film
1:18:33but have yet to fully explain the
1:18:36pre-trib doctrine
1:18:37of imminence
1:18:41imminence is really a keystone issue for
1:18:45the pre-tribulational rapture
1:18:47well in the pre-tribulational
1:18:48theological sense of the term
1:18:50eminence means that there are no
1:18:52prophesied events that must happen
1:18:54before the rapture the rapture is
1:18:57signless
1:18:58it can happen at any moment right now
1:19:01and hence they consider the rapture
1:19:03imminent
1:19:04it's hard to overemphasize how important
1:19:07this idea
1:19:08of imminence is to the concept of the
1:19:10pre-tribulational rapture
1:19:12pre-tribbers often claim that imminency
1:19:15and pre-tribulationism
1:19:16are basically one in the same thing
1:19:19take for example this quote from one of
1:19:21the most prominent pre-tribulational
1:19:23scholars
1:19:24john wolvert for the most part
1:19:27scriptural evidence for imminence today
1:19:29is equivalent to proof of the
1:19:30pre-tribulation viewpoint
1:19:32for all practical purposes abandonment
1:19:35of the pre-tribulational return of
1:19:37christ
1:19:37is tantamount to abandonment of the hope
1:19:40of his imminent return
1:19:42the first thing that you should know
1:19:43about imminence is that it is a brand
1:19:46new doctrine
1:19:47it appears to have originated in the
1:19:48early 1800s
1:19:50with the so-called plymouth brethren and
1:19:52john darby
1:19:53and there is no sign of the belief in an
1:19:55imminent rapture before the antichrist
1:19:57arrives
1:19:58among any of the church fathers of the
1:20:00previous 1800 years before darby
1:20:03and it's not just pre-trib critics
1:20:05saying that
1:20:06even pre-tribulationists agree that it
1:20:09cannot be found in the writings of the
1:20:11early church
1:20:12take for example dr larry crutchfield an
1:20:15expert in church history
1:20:16and a pre-tribulationist he spent a huge
1:20:19amount of time
1:20:20looking for evidence of imminence in the
1:20:22early church writings
1:20:24and concluded his paper on the subject
1:20:26like this
1:20:27while there are in the writings of the
1:20:29early fathers
1:20:30seeds from which the doctrine of the
1:20:32pre-tribulational rapture could be
1:20:34developed
1:20:35it is difficult to find in them an
1:20:37unequivocal statement of the type of
1:20:39imminency usually believed in by
1:20:41pre-tribulationists
1:20:43we do not say that the early fathers
1:20:45were pre-tribulationists in the modern
1:20:47sense
1:20:48only that the seeds were indeed there
1:20:51earlier in the paper crutchfield said
1:20:53that what the early church
1:20:54did believe about the timing of the
1:20:56rapture should be termed
1:20:57something like imminent
1:21:00intra-tribulationism
1:21:01meaning that most of the church fathers
1:21:03believed that the rapture would only
1:21:05come
1:21:06after the antichrist was revealed and
1:21:08the persecution of christians began
1:21:11they believed the rapture would be
1:21:12imminent but only after the certain
1:21:15precursors occurred
1:21:16most notably the abomination of
1:21:18desolation at the midpoint
1:21:20this pre-tribulational expert on the
1:21:22church fathers therefore
1:21:24is essentially telling his readers that
1:21:26the early church was for all
1:21:28intents and purposes pre-wrath
1:21:32we will deal more with the early church
1:21:34in the last section of this film
1:21:36but for now we will go through all the
1:21:38ways pre-tribbers will try to prove
1:21:40imminence from the bible alone if you
1:21:43take
1:21:44all the verses that pre-tribulationists
1:21:46use to prove imminence
1:21:48a few patterns emerge so we have
1:21:50categorized each proof text
1:21:52in its own group the first group i will
1:21:54call
1:21:55waiting for verses this includes verses
1:21:58like
1:21:58titus 2 verse 13 which says waiting for
1:22:02our blessed hope
1:22:03the appearing of the glory of our great
1:22:06god and savior
1:22:07jesus christ or philippians 3 verse 20
1:22:11which says
1:22:12but our citizenship is in heaven and
1:22:15from it
1:22:15we await a savior the lord jesus christ
1:22:19you can see another example of this type
1:22:21of proof text in 1st corinthians 1 verse
1:22:247
1:22:25but the basic idea is that believers
1:22:27should wait for and be expectant
1:22:29of christ's return there is no technical
1:22:33reason to believe that these verses are
1:22:35speaking of imminence
1:22:37in other words you can do a word study
1:22:39in greek with the terms for
1:22:40waiting for or await and you will find
1:22:44that these words do not mean that no
1:22:46events will occur before something or
1:22:48another takes place
1:22:50or that something could happen at any
1:22:52moment
1:22:53they mean pretty much what they mean in
1:22:55english that you are just
1:22:57waiting for something in the case of
1:23:00this
1:23:00waiting for group of proof texts a
1:23:03pre-tribulationist would say
1:23:04that if you are eagerly waiting for the
1:23:06rapture then the rapture must be able to
1:23:09happen
1:23:10at any moment but it should be obvious
1:23:12that that
1:23:13doesn't logically follow you can eagerly
1:23:16await
1:23:16all kinds of things that are not
1:23:18imminent you can eagerly await christmas
1:23:21but it doesn't mean christmas can occur
1:23:23at any moment
1:23:24you can eagerly await a wedding but it
1:23:27doesn't mean that the wedding will
1:23:28happen
1:23:28at any moment you can see a biblical
1:23:32example that imminence is not the
1:23:34logical conclusion of eagerly awaiting
1:23:36something
1:23:37in second peter 3 13 where it says
1:23:40but according to his promise we are
1:23:42waiting for
1:23:44pras new heavens and a new earth
1:23:47in which righteousness dwells the
1:23:49apostle peter
1:23:51says that we are to watch for and to
1:23:53expect
1:23:55the new heavens and new earth but we
1:23:58know and even pre-tribulationists would
1:24:00admit
1:24:00there are certain prophesied events that
1:24:02have to happen
1:24:04before the new heavens and the new earth
1:24:06so if
1:24:07to watch means imminence that then they
1:24:10would have to admit that
1:24:11the new heavens and the new earth are
1:24:14imminent events which of course
1:24:16they would not admit what the bible is
1:24:18saying is that we should as christians
1:24:20look forward to wait for and eagerly
1:24:24anticipate
1:24:25all the wonderful things that god has in
1:24:27store for us
1:24:28including his return so we can begin our
1:24:32eternal life
1:24:33and be with him but to be expectant of
1:24:36something
1:24:37is obviously not the same thing as
1:24:39thinking it will happen
1:24:40at any moment the next group of proof
1:24:43texts for imminence
1:24:44could be called be good because jesus is
1:24:47returning
1:24:48this is probably the largest group of
1:24:50pre-trib proof texts for imminence
1:24:52which consists of verses like 1st john 2
1:24:55verse 28
1:24:56which says and now little children abide
1:25:00in him
1:25:00so that when he appears we may have
1:25:03confidence
1:25:04and not shrink from him in shame at his
1:25:06coming
1:25:07or hebrews 10 verses 24 and 25
1:25:10which says and let us consider how to
1:25:13stir one another to love and good works
1:25:15not neglecting to meet together as is
1:25:18the habit of some
1:25:19but encouraging one another and all the
1:25:22more
1:25:22as you see the day draw near there are a
1:25:25few
1:25:26more verses like this that are basically
1:25:28saying the same thing
1:25:29that christians should strive to live
1:25:31moral lives
1:25:32to do good works and that they should
1:25:35live those moral lives
1:25:36because jesus is returning the argument
1:25:39pre-tribbers would make here
1:25:41is that because the new testament
1:25:42writers are telling people to be morally
1:25:45blameless because of jesus's return
1:25:47it must mean that his return could
1:25:49happen at any moment without
1:25:51signs in other words according to
1:25:54pre-tribers
1:25:55the new testament writers were telling
1:25:57people that they should keep doing good
1:25:59because if they don't they could get
1:26:01caught doing something bad
1:26:03because jesus could return at any moment
1:26:05and surprise them
1:26:06while they were sinning pre-tribbers
1:26:09have taken this concept very seriously
1:26:12and have even developed a doctrine about
1:26:14sanctification which uses this idea as
1:26:16its base
1:26:17that is that the fear of being caught in
1:26:20the act of sinning from an imminent
1:26:21rapture
1:26:22keeps christians on the straight and
1:26:24narrow path pre-tribulational teacher
1:26:26john mcarthur claims that our very
1:26:29sanctification
1:26:30depends on imminence he says
1:26:34quote the hope of christ's imminent
1:26:37return
1:26:37is therefore the hinge on which a proper
1:26:40understanding of sanctification
1:26:42turns this position really does not
1:26:46accurately reflect how the scriptures
1:26:48declare we are
1:26:49to seek to live godly in christ jesus
1:26:52i live the christian life because i love
1:26:54god
1:26:56the fact that his son is coming for me
1:26:58is added benefit
1:27:00but not knowing when he's going to come
1:27:02does not demure
1:27:04my desire to live holy
1:27:07at all you better have more motivation
1:27:09than merely the fear that jesus is going
1:27:12to come back
1:27:13uh to lead a life of of
1:27:16um committed discipleship uh
1:27:20if that's your only reason for for uh
1:27:23for being committed to christ or
1:27:24submitting to his lordship then you've
1:27:26got a deficient view of discipleship
1:27:28the question is though is there a better
1:27:31explanation
1:27:32for why the bible says that christians
1:27:34should do good works
1:27:35because of christ's return the answer is
1:27:38resoundingly
1:27:40yes in fact these verses which
1:27:42pre-tribbers think are about imminence
1:27:45are really just a few more examples of
1:27:47one of the most prominent themes in the
1:27:49new testament
1:27:50which is that christians should live
1:27:52godly lives in light of the fact
1:27:54that they have been given eternal life
1:27:56let's turn back to ii
1:27:58peter 3 to show how this works since all
1:28:01these things are thus to be dissolved
1:28:04what sort of people ought you to be in
1:28:06lives of holiness and godliness
1:28:09waiting for and hastening the coming of
1:28:11the day of god
1:28:12because of which the heavens will be set
1:28:14on fire and dissolved
1:28:15and the heavenly bodies will melt as
1:28:17they burn but according to his promise
1:28:20we are waiting for new heavens and a new
1:28:23earth
1:28:23in which righteousness dwells therefore
1:28:26beloved
1:28:26since we are waiting for these be
1:28:29diligent to be found by him
1:28:31without spot or blemish and at peace and
1:28:34count the patience of our lord as
1:28:35salvation
1:28:36just as our beloved brother paul also
1:28:39wrote to you according to the wisdom
1:28:40given him
1:28:42this verse shows us that the reason we
1:28:44are told to live godly lives
1:28:46is not because of an imminent rapture or
1:28:48anything at
1:28:49all to do with being surprised by
1:28:51something unexpected
1:28:53rather the point peter is making is that
1:28:55the new heavens and new earth
1:28:57are a picture of the eternal life that a
1:28:59believer is promised
1:29:01that is why we should live godly lives
1:29:04because of the joy of our inheritance
1:29:06because of the sureness of our
1:29:07resurrection to eternal life
1:29:10when you look at the other so-called
1:29:12proof texts in this group
1:29:13it becomes clear that the same theme
1:29:15here in ii peter is in view
1:29:17and that the only reason those verses
1:29:19even mention the rapture
1:29:21is because the rapture is the very
1:29:23picture of eternal life
1:29:25it's the moment believers become
1:29:27immortal
1:29:28but the point is exactly the same let me
1:29:31show you a few more verses where it says
1:29:33the same thing
1:29:34in the supposed imminence proof texts
1:29:36except the rapture
1:29:38is replaced with eternal life so we can
1:29:40be sure this is less about the event of
1:29:42the rapture
1:29:43but more about what the rapture
1:29:45represents i.e
1:29:47our eternal life for the one who sows to
1:29:51his own flesh
1:29:52will from the flesh reap corruption but
1:29:55the one who sows to the spirit
1:29:58will from the spirit reap eternal life
1:30:01and let us not grow weary of doing good
1:30:04for in due season
1:30:05we will reap if we do not give up
1:30:08galatians 6
1:30:09verses 8 and 9 here paul says that
1:30:13reaping eternal life is a reason
1:30:15christians should not grow weary of
1:30:16doing good
1:30:18not the rapture not being scared of
1:30:20being caught by something sudden
1:30:23but because of something sure and
1:30:25wonderful
1:30:27i know some of you are thinking this is
1:30:28a little too legalistic for comfort
1:30:31are we to do good works to obtain
1:30:33eternal life
1:30:34well don't worry because in the next
1:30:37verse
1:30:37paul clears all that up it's found in
1:30:40one of the most famous passages in the
1:30:42bible
1:30:431st corinthians 15 58 therefore my
1:30:46beloved brothers be steadfast
1:30:49immovable always abounding in the work
1:30:52of the lord
1:30:53knowing that in the lord your labor is
1:30:55not
1:30:56in vain since this verse comes directly
1:30:59after
1:31:00paul was talking about the amazing gifts
1:31:02of immortality
1:31:03death where is your sting and all that
1:31:06we can see that he is saying here
1:31:08that christians do good works because
1:31:10eternal life is a sure thing
1:31:12it's real our good works are not in vain
1:31:16we will be rewarded on that day we will
1:31:18live eternally in the new heavens and
1:31:21new earth with jesus
1:31:22that is the blessed hope of christians
1:31:26in any case i hope you can at least
1:31:28agree that whatever these verses
1:31:30mean they are most certainly not giving
1:31:32us any information about whether or not
1:31:34there are prophesied events before the
1:31:36rapture
1:31:37hopefully you are starting to see how
1:31:39absurd that particular idea is
1:31:42the next group of proof texts for
1:31:44imminence is the easiest to dismiss
1:31:47for some reason these verses always
1:31:49appear in pre-trib lists of proof texts
1:31:51but all they prove is that christians
1:31:53will not go through the wrath of god
1:31:55which of course pre-wrath and many other
1:31:57viewpoints
1:31:58also teach one example from this group
1:32:01would be first thessalonians 5
1:32:03verse 9 which says for god has not
1:32:05destined us for wrath
1:32:07but to obtain salvation through our lord
1:32:09jesus christ
1:32:11in a recent major theological paper that
1:32:14was supposed to be about proving the
1:32:15doctrine of imminence
1:32:17two of the six verses offered up in
1:32:19defense of eminence
1:32:20were these two verses which have
1:32:22literally nothing
1:32:23to do with imminence you can carefully
1:32:26read through the argumentation on these
1:32:28verses in that paper
1:32:29and see he doesn't even try to make an
1:32:31argument for imminence
1:32:33he is literally just using these verses
1:32:35to show that the church will not go
1:32:37through the wrath of god
1:32:38and i guess hoping his readers will
1:32:40believe that somehow proves imminence
1:32:43the next type of proof text for
1:32:45imminence is one of the strangest
1:32:47but also one of the more popular it
1:32:49could be called
1:32:50the rapture is a good thing proof text
1:32:53and it comes from john
1:32:5414. let not your hearts be troubled
1:32:58believe in god believe also in me in my
1:33:01father's house are many rooms
1:33:03if it were not so would i have told you
1:33:06that i go to prepare a place for you
1:33:08and if i go and prepare a place for you
1:33:10i will come again
1:33:12and will take you to myself that where i
1:33:15am
1:33:15you may be also and you know the way to
1:33:18where i'm going
1:33:20so you may be asking yourself where does
1:33:23this talk about the rapture coming at
1:33:24any moment
1:33:25or that there are no prophesied events
1:33:28that come before the rapture
1:33:29well don't worry you didn't see it
1:33:32because they derive imminence from this
1:33:33verse in a way that is less than obvious
1:33:37their argument has two premises number
1:33:40one that jesus implies that the rapture
1:33:42is a good
1:33:43thing when he says let not your hearts
1:33:45be troubled
1:33:46and number two that the rapture is in
1:33:48fact what jesus is talking about
1:33:50because he says i will come again and
1:33:53will take you to myself
1:33:54which is a reference to the rapture so
1:33:57far i am in total agreement with these
1:33:59premises
1:34:00the rapture will be good and this
1:34:02passage is about
1:34:04the rapture but the odd conclusion
1:34:06pre-tribulationists draw from these two
1:34:08points
1:34:09is that because the rapture is
1:34:10considered good by jesus
1:34:13it therefore can't have anything bad
1:34:15before it
1:34:16namely the persecution of the antichrist
1:34:19they insist that if christians were to
1:34:21go through some kind of persecution
1:34:23before the rapture
1:34:25then jesus would not have implied that
1:34:27they should not be troubled about it
1:34:29first of all the reason that jesus told
1:34:31them not to be troubled
1:34:33was not because they were worried about
1:34:35persecution just before the rapture
1:34:37he told them not to be troubled because
1:34:39of what they were talking about
1:34:41just before he said this simon peter
1:34:44said to him
1:34:44lord where are you going jesus answered
1:34:47him
1:34:48where i am going you cannot follow me
1:34:50now but you will follow afterward
1:34:53after jesus tells them what he does he
1:34:56then concludes it by saying
1:34:57and you know the way to where i am going
1:35:00so we know that the let not your hearts
1:35:03be troubled statement
1:35:04was concerning their fear that they
1:35:06would not know where he was going
1:35:08or how to follow him there to further
1:35:11illustrate how absurd the idea is that
1:35:13jesus
1:35:14was saying let not your hearts be
1:35:15troubled to assure his followers that
1:35:18they would not have to go through
1:35:19terrible persecution before the rapture
1:35:22consider that most of these very
1:35:23disciples would be tortured to death
1:35:26not many years after this in fact
1:35:28millions of christians have died in the
1:35:30past
1:35:31and will die because of persecution the
1:35:34fact that the rapture is a good
1:35:35thing is in no way promising that the
1:35:38events just before it
1:35:39will be without pain and more to the
1:35:42point
1:35:43this verse is not even in the same
1:35:44ballpark as a discussion about whether
1:35:47or not there will be prophesied events
1:35:49before the rapture
1:35:50contextually just in case you think we
1:35:53are cherry-picking bad
1:35:54arguments for imminence that paper i
1:35:56mentioned earlier
1:35:58opens up with this verse it is the
1:36:00headliner argument he has for imminence
1:36:03but all it really does is demonstrate
1:36:05how bankrupt the argument for eminence
1:36:07really is
1:36:08in modern pre-tribulationism the next
1:36:11group of proof texts
1:36:12are what i call nearness proof texts
1:36:15they are verses that speak of the
1:36:16rapture as being
1:36:17near or soon a prominent example is in
1:36:21philippians 4
1:36:225 which says let your reasonableness be
1:36:25known to everyone
1:36:26the lord is at hand and there are
1:36:28several others like this
1:36:30but the doctrine being expressed in each
1:36:32of them is that the lord's return
1:36:34is near and because it's been around
1:36:362000 years
1:36:38since the time these verses were written
1:36:40people are usually looking for a new
1:36:42definition of the word near
1:36:44or at hand and pre-tribbers choose to
1:36:46define it
1:36:47as imminent once again we need to point
1:36:50out that the underlying greek
1:36:52is of no help here the words being used
1:36:54don't have a technical meaning of
1:36:56imminence
1:36:56or that something will happen at any
1:36:58moment according to the lexicons
1:37:01they just mean that something is near
1:37:04let's look at one of the most famous
1:37:05passages supposedly about imminence
1:37:08to see if we can tell if james is
1:37:10talking about in any moment
1:37:11rapture be patient therefore brothers
1:37:15until the coming of the lord see how the
1:37:17farmer waits for the precious fruit of
1:37:19the earth
1:37:20being patient about it until it receives
1:37:22the early and the late reigns
1:37:24you also be patient establish your
1:37:26hearts for the coming of the lord is at
1:37:29hand
1:37:29do not grumble against one another
1:37:31brothers so that you may not be judged
1:37:34behold the judge is standing at the door
1:37:38this verse from james is clearly
1:37:40parallel to jesus's teaching of the fig
1:37:42tree parable in matthew 24.
1:37:44we know this in part because of the word
1:37:46near and the
1:37:48idea that the judge is standing at the
1:37:49door both of which appear
1:37:51in the fig tree parable but most of all
1:37:54we know its derivative
1:37:55because it is the exact same teaching
1:37:58about the same
1:37:59issue the rapture in the fig tree
1:38:02parable
1:38:02jesus is saying that you will know that
1:38:04his return is near
1:38:06engus at the very door or gates
1:38:09thura because you will see certain signs
1:38:12namely the signs he just got done
1:38:14telling them about
1:38:15in the same way that you can tell summer
1:38:17is near by studying the leaves on a fig
1:38:19tree
1:38:20you will see the signs and know his
1:38:22return is near
1:38:24james is saying the same thing with his
1:38:26agricultural parallel
1:38:28that the harvest of fruit the rapture
1:38:30cannot occur until
1:38:32certain things happen first until it
1:38:34receives the early and late reigns
1:38:37and so they need to be patient and
1:38:39establish their hearts
1:38:41obviously the harvest or rapture is not
1:38:43supposed to be understood as
1:38:45imminent in this illustration as a
1:38:47number of things have to happen before
1:38:49crops can be harvested
1:38:50not the least of which is the early and
1:38:52latter rains and the actual growing of
1:38:55the crops
1:38:56even james telling his readers to be
1:38:58patient three times in this passage
1:39:00is the exact opposite thing to teach if
1:39:03what he meant was that the rapture could
1:39:05occur at any moment
1:39:07while it is true that the rapture being
1:39:09spoken of as being near
1:39:10is a difficult thing to understand in
1:39:12light of it having been
1:39:14two thousand years and counting since
1:39:16the prophecy was made
1:39:17i don't think it means we should go
1:39:19looking for a new definition of the word
1:39:21near
1:39:22i think we can take some instruction
1:39:24from this passage in second peter 3
1:39:26which seems to suggest that any delay in
1:39:29events
1:39:29leading up to the rapture and the day of
1:39:31the lord is to allow for more to be
1:39:33saved before the judgment begins
1:39:35but do not overlook this one fact
1:39:37beloved
1:39:38that with the lord one day is as a
1:39:41thousand years
1:39:42and a thousand years as one day the lord
1:39:46is not slow to fulfill his promise as
1:39:48some
1:39:48count slowness but is patient toward you
1:39:52not wishing that any should perish but
1:39:54that all should reach repentance
1:39:56second peter 3 verses 8 and 9
1:40:00and that brings us to our final group of
1:40:02proof texts which is the thief in the
1:40:04ninth
1:40:04proof texts there are several instances
1:40:07in scripture
1:40:08in which the return of jesus is spoken
1:40:10of like a thief
1:40:11for you yourselves are fully aware that
1:40:14the day of the lord will come like a
1:40:16thief in the night
1:40:171st thessalonians 5 verse 2.
1:40:20the idea is that if jesus's return is
1:40:22unexpected
1:40:23like a thief breaking into your house at
1:40:25night then it must be imminent
1:40:28interestingly this line of argumentation
1:40:30seems to have fallen out of popularity
1:40:32with pre-tribbers recently
1:40:34because if you follow the thief idea
1:40:36throughout the new testament
1:40:37it ironically ends up proving imminence
1:40:40wrong
1:40:41the reason for that is that all of these
1:40:43coming like a thief
1:40:44verses can be traced back to jesus who
1:40:48in this section of the olivet discourse
1:40:50was talking about the need for his
1:40:51followers to watch for the signs of his
1:40:54return
1:40:55he says watch therefore for you do not
1:40:58know what hour your lord is coming
1:41:00but know this that if the master of the
1:41:02house had known what hour the thief
1:41:04would come
1:41:06he would have watched and not allowed
1:41:08his house to be broken into
1:41:10therefore you also must be ready for the
1:41:12son of man
1:41:13is coming at an hour you do not expect
1:41:17this is confirmed in spades all
1:41:18throughout the new testament
1:41:20where the idea of the thief is
1:41:22specifically about the importance of
1:41:23watching for the signs of the return of
1:41:25christ
1:41:26and that the lord's return like a thief
1:41:28is only for those unbelievers who do not
1:41:31know or care
1:41:32to watch for it let's take the very
1:41:34verse pre-tribbers use in 1st
1:41:36thessalonians 5
1:41:37and put it back in context to show the
1:41:39utter uselessness of the thief idea to
1:41:41prove imminence
1:41:43now concerning the times and the seasons
1:41:45brothers you have no need to have
1:41:47anything written to you
1:41:49for you yourselves are fully aware that
1:41:51the day of the lord will come like a
1:41:53thief in the night
1:41:54while people are saying there is peace
1:41:56and security
1:41:58then sudden destruction will come upon
1:41:59them as labor pains come upon a pregnant
1:42:02woman
1:42:02and they will not escape but you are not
1:42:05in darkness brothers
1:42:06for that day to surprise you like a
1:42:08thief for you are all
1:42:10children of light children of the day we
1:42:13are not
1:42:14of the night or of the darkness so then
1:42:17let us not sleep as others do but let us
1:42:19keep awake
1:42:21and be sober the thief motif is not
1:42:23talking about
1:42:24an imminent event what it is talking
1:42:27about is that when he does
1:42:29return it's going to happen suddenly
1:42:32that's different than the idea of
1:42:34imminence
1:42:35jesus's return will come as a thief but
1:42:38is going to come as a
1:42:40thief to unbelievers not believers
1:42:43so the return of christ will only be
1:42:45like a thief for unbelievers
1:42:48for them it will come suddenly and
1:42:49unexpectedly
1:42:51because they will not be watching for
1:42:52the signs of it
1:42:54and the very idea of watching for signs
1:42:56of the rapture
1:42:57means that there are prophesied events
1:43:00before the rapture
1:43:01if you tell me to watch
1:43:05then i've got to be watching for
1:43:06something all the disciples
1:43:09most of the early church millions of
1:43:11christians of all ages
1:43:13have been brutally tortured and killed
1:43:15for their faith
1:43:17it is something jesus over and over told
1:43:19us not only to expect
1:43:21but to rejoice in so i can't follow the
1:43:25logic that says that the rapture will
1:43:27prevent
1:43:27one small group of christians from
1:43:29persecution
1:43:30but not others whatever the blessed hope
1:43:34is
1:43:34it must be a blessed hope for all those
1:43:37martyrs of the past as well
1:43:39which is of course the resurrection to
1:43:41eternal life itself
1:43:43i believe that like the man behind the
1:43:45curtain in the wizard of oz
1:43:47simply revealing to pre-tribbers what
1:43:49most pre-tribulationists really teach
1:43:51about imminence
1:43:52is enough to understand that the concept
1:43:55of an imminent rapture
1:43:56is a totally new fraudulent doctrine
1:43:59that needs to be quickly abandoned for
1:44:01the good of the church
1:44:06[Music]
1:44:12one of the foundational arguments for
1:44:14the pre-tribulational rapture
1:44:15is concerning the relationship between
1:44:17national israel
1:44:19and the church it's based on daniel 9
1:44:22verses 24 to 27
1:44:24where we find the so-called 70 weeks
1:44:26prophecy
1:44:28this prophecy is where we get the
1:44:29concept of a future seven-year period
1:44:32in which the majority of the end times
1:44:34events take place
1:44:36this prophecy in daniel is about the
1:44:38future of israel
1:44:39the weeks as in the 70 weeks prophecy
1:44:43are understood to mean groups of seven
1:44:45years
1:44:46so 70 weeks would be 70 groups of 7
1:44:49years
1:44:50which works out to 490 years
1:44:54in daniel these 70 weeks are divided
1:44:56with the first
1:44:5769 weeks having been fulfilled in the
1:44:59past
1:45:00and the final week the final seven year
1:45:03period
1:45:04still awaiting fulfillment in the future
1:45:07and during the gap
1:45:08between the first 69 weeks and the final
1:45:10week there has been something like
1:45:122 000 years and counting this gap of
1:45:15time
1:45:16that we are currently in is commonly
1:45:17referred to as the church age
1:45:20most of the proponents of the various
1:45:22rapture positions we have mentioned in
1:45:24this film
1:45:24like pre-trib post-trib and pre-wrath
1:45:28all agree on the basics of this prophecy
1:45:31that there is a future seven year period
1:45:33in which the end times events will
1:45:35primarily play out
1:45:36and that the seven year period will
1:45:38culminate with god fulfilling his
1:45:40promises
1:45:41to national israel i think the
1:45:43scriptures are very clear that god
1:45:45uh has a future for israel and that that
1:45:48future is going to be
1:45:49uh culminated in the millennial reign of
1:45:52christ on earth after his return
1:45:55pre-tribulationists however have
1:45:56proposed a unique interpretation of this
1:45:59prophecy
1:45:59which supports their view of the rapture
1:46:02the theory is that god does not work
1:46:04with israel and the church at the same
1:46:06time
1:46:07they insist that a hard distinction must
1:46:10be made here
1:46:11that god has completely and totally
1:46:13paused his dealings with national israel
1:46:16during the church age pre-wrath takes a
1:46:18similar view
1:46:19with the difference being that pre-wrath
1:46:21teaches that god has
1:46:23only relatively postponed his dealings
1:46:25with israel during this church age
1:46:27not absolutely and that god can and has
1:46:30worked with both the church and israel
1:46:33during the church age
1:46:34and that he will continue to do so in
1:46:37the final seven year period
1:46:39the reason pre-tribbers are so insistent
1:46:41that god will absolutely
1:46:43not work with the church and israel at
1:46:45the same time
1:46:46is because they use that particular idea
1:46:49in one of their arguments for the
1:46:50pre-trib rapture
1:46:52which is that since the 70 weeks
1:46:54prophecy was made to israel
1:46:56and is about israel and since the time
1:46:59between those two sections of the 70
1:47:01weeks is the church age
1:47:03they say that when the clock starts on
1:47:05this prophecy again
1:47:06it will be all about israel and so the
1:47:09church must be raptured before it begins
1:47:12they'll say that god doesn't work with
1:47:13israel and the church at the same time
1:47:15israel is going to be part of the seven
1:47:17year period therefore the church
1:47:18cannot be part of the seven year period
1:47:20the assumption
1:47:21is that god cannot deal with
1:47:25israel and the church at the same time
1:47:28and so since
1:47:29daniel's 70th week was part of god's
1:47:32dealing with israel the church must not
1:47:34be
1:47:34on earth when daniel 70th week begins
1:47:38let's start with their premise that
1:47:40because this 70 weeks prophecy was made
1:47:43to and concerning israel that the church
1:47:46will not have any part in its
1:47:47fulfillment
1:47:48one great way to show the complete
1:47:50inconsistency of pre-tribulational
1:47:53thinking here
1:47:54is by turning to jeremiah 31 verses
1:47:5731-34
1:47:58where we see a prophecy that in many
1:48:00ways is just like the 70 weeks prophecy
1:48:04for example it was explicitly given to
1:48:07israel
1:48:07and was concerning only israel i will
1:48:11make a new covenant with the house of
1:48:12israel
1:48:13and the house of judah and like the
1:48:16seventy weeks prophecy it was given at a
1:48:18time when the church
1:48:20didn't even exist but in this case
1:48:23nearly every christian agrees that this
1:48:25prophecy applies to the church as well
1:48:27as it is talking about the new covenant
1:48:29instituted by christ
1:48:31in which the spirit of god will dwell
1:48:32within the hearts of man
1:48:34and change them from the inside out
1:48:38before i show more evidence that this
1:48:40idea is wrong
1:48:41i would like you to notice that this
1:48:42critical doctrine among
1:48:44pre-tribulationists
1:48:45that god does not will not work with
1:48:48israel and the church at the same time
1:48:50has no actual proof text like other
1:48:53doctrines do
1:48:54it is merely an assumption among
1:48:56pre-tribulationists
1:48:57and worse it's an assumption that they
1:49:00routinely abandon
1:49:01when it suits them take for example the
1:49:04so-called tribulation saints idea
1:49:07whenever a pre-tribber reads in the
1:49:09bible about christians existing within
1:49:11the last seven year period
1:49:13which is a very frequent occurrence they
1:49:16call those people
1:49:17tribulation saints people of various
1:49:20nationalities left behind after the
1:49:22rapture
1:49:22who become christians well if god won't
1:49:26work with the church and israel at the
1:49:27same time
1:49:29how do they explain these tribulation
1:49:31saints
1:49:32are they not saved do they not have the
1:49:34holy spirit
1:49:36are the gentile believers among them not
1:49:38the church
1:49:40is god not working with them because he
1:49:42won't work with them
1:49:43and the jews at the same time to drive
1:49:46the nail in the coffin of this
1:49:48unbiblical doctrine
1:49:49that god won't work with israel and the
1:49:51church at the same time
1:49:53let me simply show you lots of places
1:49:55where the bible says god works with both
1:49:57groups in the past
1:49:59in the present and in the future
1:50:02in the past god worked with israel
1:50:05during the church age
1:50:06in ad70 before the death and
1:50:09resurrection of jesus
1:50:11during the old covenant dispensation a
1:50:14prophecy was given to israel concerning
1:50:16god
1:50:16judging israel with the temple's
1:50:18destruction
1:50:20jesus on a number of occasions he
1:50:22prophesied the judgment on
1:50:25israel when did that happen in 80
1:50:2870. god is also working with both the
1:50:30church and
1:50:31israel at the same time in the present
1:50:33in at least two ways
1:50:36the first is that god is making israel
1:50:38jealous and saving a remnant of jews
1:50:40during the church age paul cites the
1:50:44following prophecy about god making
1:50:46israel jealous through extending his
1:50:48salvation to the gentiles
1:50:50but again i ask didn't israel understand
1:50:54first moses says i will make you jealous
1:50:57by those who are not a nation
1:50:59with a senseless nation i will provoke
1:51:01you to anger
1:51:03and isaiah is even bold enough to say i
1:51:06was found by those who did not seek me
1:51:09i became well known to those who did not
1:51:11ask for me
1:51:13paul responds to moses and isaiah's
1:51:16prophecies
1:51:17exclaiming god's faithfulness to his
1:51:19promise to israel
1:51:21i ask then they did not stumble into an
1:51:23irrevocable fall did they
1:51:26absolutely not but by their
1:51:28transgression
1:51:29salvation has come to the gentiles to
1:51:32make
1:51:32israel jealous for i do not want you to
1:51:35be ignorant of this mystery brothers and
1:51:37sisters
1:51:38so that you may not be conceited a
1:51:40partial hardening has happened to israel
1:51:43until the full number of the gentiles
1:51:45has come in
1:51:47god is using the salvation of gentiles
1:51:49as a means to provoke
1:51:51israel to come to salvation and he is in
1:51:54fact
1:51:54saving a remnant through those means at
1:51:56this time
1:51:58if we look at the last 2000 years plus
1:52:02god has been dealing with israel in the
1:52:04church
1:52:05at the same time the the church
1:52:08defined as the assembly of the lord
1:52:13of both jew and gentile god has
1:52:16the gospel going out and he is gathering
1:52:19the constituents of his kingdom
1:52:20and he has been doing that but israel is
1:52:23still
1:52:24his chosen nation still his people
1:52:27they are still under-disciplined there
1:52:30still is a remnant
1:52:31being saved the other way god is working
1:52:34with israel in the present
1:52:35age is by god re-gathering israel back
1:52:38to their homeland
1:52:40a key aspect to this would be the
1:52:42monumental event of the creation of the
1:52:44modern state of israel
1:52:46in 1948 god has been
1:52:49and continues to this day providentially
1:52:52regathering
1:52:53jews to their homeland israel
1:52:56the prophet ezekiel prophesied that this
1:52:58would happen
1:52:59in his dry bones prophecy in ezekiel 37
1:53:03verses 1 to 14. in 1948
1:53:07israel became a nation again it's
1:53:09fulfilled these are the dry bones of
1:53:10course the flesh the flesh part of the
1:53:12prophecy has not been fulfilled that's
1:53:14going to be the spiritual
1:53:15regeneration of israel that will happen
1:53:18at the end of the seven year period
1:53:20but the dry bones part of the ezekiel
1:53:22prophecy
1:53:23by the way ezekiel's prophecy was made
1:53:25to israel
1:53:27but is being fulfilled during the church
1:53:29age
1:53:31in the future this next one cuts to the
1:53:34very core of the matter
1:53:35since if you can show that god in the
1:53:37future works with both
1:53:39israel and the church specifically
1:53:41during the final seven year period
1:53:44you have refuted the very foundation of
1:53:46this odd doctrine
1:53:48and while there are many ways to show
1:53:50this there is one in particular that i
1:53:52like the best
1:53:53and it is found in revelation 12 which
1:53:55says
1:53:57but the woman was given the two wings of
1:53:59the great eagle
1:54:00so that she might fly from the serpent
1:54:02into the wilderness
1:54:03to the place where she is to be
1:54:05nourished for a time and times
1:54:07and half a time the serpent poured water
1:54:10like a river out of his mouth
1:54:12after the woman to sweep her away with
1:54:14the flood
1:54:15but the earth came to the help of the
1:54:17woman and the earth opened its mouth and
1:54:19swallowed the river that the dragon had
1:54:21poured from his mouth
1:54:23then the dragon became furious with the
1:54:25woman and went off to make war on the
1:54:27rest of her offspring
1:54:29on those who keep the commandments of
1:54:31god and hold
1:54:32to the testimony of jesus revelation 12
1:54:36verses 12-17 here we have a picture of
1:54:40events
1:54:40squarely within the last seven year
1:54:42period and yet
1:54:44we read that after the dragon becomes
1:54:46furious at his inability to get to the
1:54:48representative of israel
1:54:50i.e the woman he then goes after the
1:54:53church
1:54:54i.e those that hold to the testimony of
1:54:56jesus
1:54:57both groups are obviously on earth at
1:54:59the same time
1:55:01and obviously during the final week of
1:55:03daniel because of the reference to the
1:55:05last three and a half years in verse 14
1:55:08so it follows that god is in fact
1:55:10working with both groups
1:55:12at the same time in the end times as
1:55:14well
1:55:16god works with israel in the church at
1:55:18the same time
1:55:19in the past and in the present so it
1:55:22shouldn't be surprising that the church
1:55:24will also
1:55:25enter into with israel this
1:55:28future seven year period the antichrist
1:55:31is going to go
1:55:32after both groups not just israel but
1:55:35israel and the church during the great
1:55:40[Music]
1:55:44tribulation
1:55:47the last pre-trib problem that we will
1:55:49cover in this film
1:55:50concerns patristics which is a name for
1:55:52the study of the writings and beliefs of
1:55:54the early church
1:55:56the writings from the early church
1:55:58fathers date back to the first century
1:56:01and of course we should never take their
1:56:03writings as proof of one
1:56:04doctrine over another the bible is
1:56:07always the ultimate source for our
1:56:09doctrine
1:56:10but at the same time most if not all of
1:56:13the doctrines we hold today
1:56:15were taught at some point by the early
1:56:16church fathers
1:56:18at the very least these writings provide
1:56:20insight into what the earliest
1:56:22christians believed about certain
1:56:23subjects
1:56:24whether those beliefs were right or
1:56:26wrong so the big question
1:56:28is what did the early church believe
1:56:30about the timing of the rapture
1:56:32and in one sense the answer to that
1:56:34question is pretty simple
1:56:37every single early church father who
1:56:39taught on the relationship between the
1:56:41church and the antichrist believe that
1:56:43the church would face the antichrist
1:56:45before jesus returns
1:56:47the belief that christ was going to
1:56:49return
1:56:51after antichrist had done damage to the
1:56:54body
1:56:55that believers had suffered and had been
1:56:57under his
1:56:58uh rampage and that they would be set
1:57:01free from that
1:57:03by the appearing of christ in the sky
1:57:06that is the basic sequence and you'll
1:57:09see that
1:57:10in the writings of the fathers you'll
1:57:12see that in uh say the decay
1:57:14as we kind of look at their collected
1:57:16writings they believed in
1:57:20the truth that the church was going to
1:57:21encounter the antichrist in that the
1:57:23coming of christ was going to occur
1:57:25in the wake of their encountering of the
1:57:28antichrist
1:57:30it's not just pre-wrathers that think
1:57:32this either
1:57:33pre-trib scholars would by and large
1:57:35agree with what was just said
1:57:37i mentioned in the section of this film
1:57:39about eminence a paper written by a
1:57:41pre-tribulational early church expert
1:57:43named larry crutchfield
1:57:45in which he concluded that while he
1:57:47couldn't find any evidence of
1:57:49pre-tribulationism in the early church
1:57:51he did find what he called
1:57:53intra-tribulationism
1:57:55by which he meant people who believed
1:57:57they would be raptured out of the middle
1:57:59of the persecution of the antichrist
1:58:01which is essentially pre-wrath
1:58:04in another paper written more recently
1:58:07james stitzinger who is very much a
1:58:09pre-tribulationist
1:58:10agrees with crutchfield's conclusion
1:58:12when he wrote the early fathers largely
1:58:15held to a period of persecution
1:58:17that would be ongoing when the return of
1:58:19the lord takes place
1:58:21and most would see the church suffering
1:58:23through some portion of the tribulation
1:58:25period
1:58:26he further writes a type of imminent
1:58:29intratribulationism
1:58:30crutchfield or imminent
1:58:32post-tribulationism
1:58:34walvord with occasional
1:58:36pre-tribulational inferences
1:58:38was believed in this paper he quotes
1:58:4115 church fathers which as we will see
1:58:44certainly do not help his case and then
1:58:47oddly concludes his paper by
1:58:49contradicting his opening statement when
1:58:51he says
1:58:52george ladd post-tribulationist is no
1:58:55longer credible when he writes
1:58:58we can find no trace of
1:58:59pre-tribulationism in the early church
1:59:02and no modern pre-tribulationist has
1:59:04successfully proved that this particular
1:59:06doctrine was held
1:59:07by any of the church fathers or students
1:59:09of the word before the 19th century
1:59:12so i'm going to go through these quotes
1:59:14he provided so i can show you his logic
1:59:17and by extension most pre-tribulational
1:59:19logic
1:59:20as it concerns the church fathers before
1:59:23we get started though
1:59:24i want to reiterate something that is
1:59:26crucially important
1:59:28as i said these pre-tribbers know and
1:59:31freely admit
1:59:32that the early church almost without
1:59:34exception believed that the rapture
1:59:36would occur
1:59:37after the antichrist showed up and began
1:59:40to persecute the church
1:59:42they also freely admit those church
1:59:44fathers that mentioned the seven year
1:59:46timeline
1:59:46in relationship to the rapture
1:59:48universally believed the rapture would
1:59:50take place
1:59:51in the last half of the three and a half
1:59:53year period
1:59:54so pre-tribbers know very well that they
1:59:57will never
1:59:58ever win an argument about the early
2:00:00church teaching pre-tribulationism
2:00:02in any kind of traditional way it's just
2:00:05far too obvious that the early church
2:00:07was
2:00:07anything but pre-tribulational so what
2:00:10they do
2:00:11is never mention to their congregations
2:00:13what the early church
2:00:14actually believed about the timing of
2:00:16the rapture
2:00:17and instead claimed that the early
2:00:19church believed in imminence
2:00:22you'll remember that is the idea that
2:00:24jesus could return
2:00:25at any moment so the thinking is if they
2:00:28can prove that the early church believed
2:00:30the rapture could come
2:00:31at any moment they will call that proof
2:00:34of pre-tribulationism
2:00:35even if the church father in question
2:00:37also taught the rapture would occur
2:00:39after
2:00:40the midpoint and after the persecution
2:00:42of the church by the antichrist
2:00:44which is the very opposite of
2:00:46pre-tribulationism
2:00:48and as absurd as that premise is they
2:00:50don't even manage to accomplish that
2:00:52much
2:00:53in stitzinger's paper 6 out of the 15
2:00:56quotes from the early church
2:00:58can be placed into a category which
2:01:00could be called
2:01:01imaginary eminence proof texts this is
2:01:04where he quotes early church fathers who
2:01:06mention words that pre-tribbers have
2:01:08defined as meaning imminence
2:01:10but don't actually mean imminence
2:01:13for example a church father might
2:01:15mention the rapture is coming soon
2:01:17or that it is near or that it will be
2:01:20sudden or that we should watch for it
2:01:24on the one hand we could rehash what we
2:01:26talked about in the section
2:01:27on imminence which is that just because
2:01:30something is soon or near
2:01:32doesn't mean it is imminent a harvest of
2:01:35crops can be near
2:01:36but that doesn't mean the harvest will
2:01:38occur at any moment with no preceding
2:01:40signs
2:01:42another way to prove this wrong is by
2:01:44noticing that in most cases
2:01:45the same writers stitzinger says
2:01:47believed in imminency
2:01:49also teach in other places that lots of
2:01:52signs will come before the rapture
2:01:55in other words when a church father said
2:01:57that the rapture is
2:01:58at hand or near they clearly didn't mean
2:02:02it was imminent
2:02:03since they also said there would be lots
2:02:05of prophesied events
2:02:07before the rapture one of the best ways
2:02:10to illustrate this
2:02:11is with the didache the very first
2:02:13document
2:02:14outside of the new testament is called
2:02:17the dedicated
2:02:18and it was written roughly uh of the
2:02:21turn of the first century in his paper
2:02:24stetsinger says the following
2:02:26the final chapter of the didake provides
2:02:28one of the clearest and most
2:02:29comprehensive statements on imminency
2:02:32and then he quotes this line be watchful
2:02:35for your life
2:02:37let your lambs not be quenched and your
2:02:39loins not ungirded
2:02:41but be ye ready for ye know not the hour
2:02:44in which our lord cometh
2:02:46so the writer of the didache is simply
2:02:48telling his readers to be watchful
2:02:50and to be ready because they don't know
2:02:52the day or the hour of the rapture
2:02:54as we have seen in the pre-trib mind if
2:02:57you are watchful and ready for something
2:02:59it means that thing could occur at any
2:03:01moment
2:03:02and that such words in and of themselves
2:03:05are proof
2:03:06of imminence but if you read the full
2:03:08quote from the didake
2:03:10you will see that the writer goes on to
2:03:12name the various signs
2:03:14he wanted them to watch for signs he
2:03:16believed must come before the rapture
2:03:19by my count there are 18 events that the
2:03:22writer believed would need to come to
2:03:24pass
2:03:25before the rapture most notably the
2:03:28antichrist declaring himself to be the
2:03:30son of god
2:03:31and the persecution of christians that
2:03:33would follow that event
2:03:36so you can see the problem stitzinger
2:03:39tells his readers that the writers of
2:03:40the didache clearly and comprehensively
2:03:43taught the rapture could come at any
2:03:45moment just like he believes
2:03:47but all you have to do is read a few
2:03:49lines after this quote
2:03:51to find out that the writer actually
2:03:53believed there were multiple things that
2:03:55must
2:03:56happen before the rapture i.e
2:03:59the opposite of imminence this is by no
2:04:02means the only
2:04:03instance of a pre-tribulational scholar
2:04:06in a highly respected journal
2:04:08quoting church fathers out of context
2:04:10it's unfortunately
2:04:12incredibly common many have tried to
2:04:16look at some of the the quotes from some
2:04:18of the early church fathers and have
2:04:19tried to say well see it looks like
2:04:21their
2:04:22pre-tribulation pre-tribulational
2:04:23because they hold to imminence
2:04:26which is the idea that jesus christ can
2:04:29return at any moment there are no
2:04:30prophesied events that need to transpire
2:04:32before he returns
2:04:33and i would suggest to you strongly that
2:04:35the
2:04:37the early church fathers did not
2:04:38subscribe to an imminent
2:04:40rapture conversely many of them
2:04:44understood and made it clear in their
2:04:45writings that there would be
2:04:47a time of coming persecution before
2:04:51believers would be raptured the
2:04:54centerpiece of pre-tribulational church
2:04:56father quotes though
2:04:57is from pseudo-ephraim and i should
2:05:00mention that we have moved well beyond
2:05:02the early church at this point this
2:05:04particular quote was from the middle
2:05:06ages and it is
2:05:07almost certainly a forgery
2:05:10pseudo-ephraim
2:05:13thousands of dollars spent countless
2:05:16hours spent
2:05:17searching every historical record we can
2:05:20find
2:05:21for a reference or proof of the pre-trip
2:05:24position
2:05:25they come up with a document that's
2:05:27called pseudo
2:05:29ephraim pseudo means
2:05:33false so here is a writing
2:05:36ascribed to a man named ephraim that
2:05:39everybody knows he didn't write it
2:05:43and it supposedly is proof
2:05:46of a pre-trib rapture lots of writings
2:05:50written by somebody who wanted it to be
2:05:52more important than it really was
2:05:54so he puts the name of an important
2:05:55person on it in order to give it
2:05:57legitimacy
2:05:58we have lots of those writings but the
2:06:01fact that the
2:06:02pre-trip system would use one of those
2:06:04writing as a basis for the proof of
2:06:06their position
2:06:07to me is unconscionable but regardless
2:06:11of who wrote it
2:06:12this is the section they will usually
2:06:13quote all the saints and elect of god
2:06:16are gathered together before the
2:06:18tribulation which is to come
2:06:20and are taken to the lord in order that
2:06:22they may not see at any time
2:06:25the confusion which overwhelms the world
2:06:27because of our sins stitzinger says the
2:06:30following of pseudo-ephraim
2:06:32in general it describes the imminent
2:06:35rapture
2:06:35followed by three and a half years of
2:06:37great tribulation
2:06:38under the rule of antichrist followed by
2:06:41the coming of christ
2:06:42the defeat of antichrist and the eternal
2:06:45state
2:06:47let's talk about the before the
2:06:49tribulation quote first
2:06:51as we discussed at the beginning of this
2:06:53film the word tribulation
2:06:55has only recently been used to refer to
2:06:58the entire seven year period
2:07:00like the way modern pre-tribbers use it
2:07:02and if
2:07:03pseudoepherium did mean to refer to the
2:07:05entire seven-year period when he used
2:07:07this word tribulation
2:07:09it would be the earliest recorded
2:07:11instance of the word being used that way
2:07:14the greek word ethipsis or tribulation
2:07:17is used in many ways in the bible it can
2:07:20refer to the wrath of god
2:07:22general persecution or earthly worries
2:07:25it depends on the context so the
2:07:27question that stitzinger forgets to ask
2:07:29here
2:07:30is what does this writer mean when he
2:07:32uses the word tribulation
2:07:34what does the writer think we are going
2:07:36to escape by the rapture
2:07:38is it the wrath of god the persecution
2:07:41of the antichrist
2:07:42all of it the answer is not what
2:07:45pre-tribbers want it to be at all
2:07:47which is why they never quote the final
2:07:49paragraph of this letter which says
2:07:51and when the three and a half years have
2:07:53been completed
2:07:54the time of the antichrist through which
2:07:56he will have seduced the world
2:07:58will come the sign of the son of man and
2:08:01coming forward the lord shall appear
2:08:03with great power and much majesty
2:08:06and also even with all the powers of the
2:08:08heavens
2:08:09with the whole chorus of the saints with
2:08:12those who bear the sign of the holy
2:08:13cross upon their shoulders
2:08:15as the angelic trumpet precedes him
2:08:18which shall sound
2:08:19and declare arise o sleeping ones
2:08:23arise meet christ because his hour of
2:08:26judgment has come
2:08:28then christ shall come and the enemy
2:08:30shall be thrown into confusion
2:08:32and the lord shall destroy him by the
2:08:35spirit of his
2:08:36mouth now remember stitzinger said
2:08:39that this writer said that the rapture
2:08:41would be followed by
2:08:42three and a half years of rule under the
2:08:45antichrist
2:08:46but this shows that the writer believed
2:08:48that the rapture where the sleeping ones
2:08:50arise at the angelic trumpet sound
2:08:53would occur after the three and a half
2:08:55year period
2:08:56so that's either mid-trib pre-wrath
2:08:59or post-trib the only thing it really
2:09:02can't be is pre-trib
2:09:05when i looked at the document and
2:09:07studied it it seemed to me that it
2:09:08argued more for a matriarch
2:09:10a rapture or a rapture that was
2:09:13certainly not
2:09:14pre-tribulational it didn't seem to me
2:09:17to support the idea that there was going
2:09:18to be a rapture
2:09:19before the seventh week even started
2:09:22there are actually a couple of ways to
2:09:23check our facts here
2:09:25the first is this idea about being
2:09:27thrown into confusion
2:09:29here in this last paragraph this
2:09:31confusion
2:09:32is what happens after the rapture the
2:09:35author equates the judgment of the world
2:09:37and the wrath of god with confusion
2:09:41and if we go back up to the quote
2:09:43pre-tribbers always use
2:09:44we can see something interesting when it
2:09:46says all the saints and elect of god
2:09:49are gathered together before the
2:09:51tribulation which is to come
2:09:53and are taken to the lord in order that
2:09:56they may not see
2:09:57at any time the confusion which
2:09:59overwhelms the world
2:10:00because of our sins this confusion is
2:10:04what the writer said
2:10:05christians would escape by participating
2:10:07in the rapture
2:10:08so we have contextual proof that when
2:10:11the writer said the church would escape
2:10:13the tribulation
2:10:14he was using the word tribulation to
2:10:16describe the wrath or judgment of god
2:10:19upon those left behind we certainly know
2:10:23he wasn't talking about escaping the
2:10:25antichrist or persecution
2:10:27since he absolutely believed the church
2:10:29would face the antichrist
2:10:30before the rapture so once again the
2:10:33pre-tribs
2:10:34swing and miss when it comes to the
2:10:36church fathers
2:10:38another 5 of his 15 quotes in this paper
2:10:41are from about
2:10:421586 to 1795
2:10:46there are quotes from pre-millennial
2:10:48historicists who believe in something
2:10:50called
2:10:50the pre-conflagration theory now on the
2:10:54one hand
2:10:54these quotes are irrelevant because they
2:10:56are all things that pre-wrathers believe
2:10:58too
2:10:59take for example this quote from peter
2:11:01giriu who died in 1713.
2:11:04christ would come in the air to rapture
2:11:06the saints and return to heaven
2:11:08before the battle of armageddon this
2:11:12quote may be a problem for some
2:11:14post-tribulationists but pre-wrathers
2:11:16like pre-tribbers believe that the
2:11:19rapture will happen
2:11:20well before armageddon that is the
2:11:23rapture happens
2:11:24and then armageddon happens later on so
2:11:27it's notable that stitzinger wastes a
2:11:29full
2:11:30five of his 15 quotes on something that
2:11:32is at best
2:11:33a rebuke of some post-tribulationist
2:11:37you might as well call these proof for
2:11:39the pre-wrath rapture if your only
2:11:41criteria is that the quote must be bad
2:11:43for post-tribulationists
2:11:45interestingly thomas ice of the pre-trib
2:11:48resource center
2:11:49wrote a paper which is effectively
2:11:51rebuking people like stitzinger
2:11:53who use quotes from
2:11:55pre-conflagrationalists
2:11:56and claim they are supporting
2:11:58pre-tribulationism
2:12:00because as ice who is obviously a
2:12:02pre-tribber
2:12:03notes mead's interval the
2:12:05pre-conflagration theory
2:12:07between the rapture and the second
2:12:09coming is likely only hours or days
2:12:12but not years as required by a
2:12:14pre-tribulational viewpoint
2:12:16the second peter 3 verse 10
2:12:18conflagration is a final destruction of
2:12:20the heavens and earth in preparation for
2:12:22the millennium
2:12:23within mead system stitzinger never
2:12:26mentioned
2:12:27any of this in his paper in fact he
2:12:30points to one of these
2:12:31conflagration quotes from john gill in
2:12:33his conclusion
2:12:34as conclusive proof for a pre-darby
2:12:37belief in the pre-trib rapture
2:12:39which is utterly absurd the few quotes i
2:12:42haven't dealt with yet are pretty easily
2:12:44dismissed
2:12:45for example he quotes a cult leader in
2:12:48the 1300s
2:12:49and even the guy who originally
2:12:51published this particular quote
2:12:53admits that the writer actually believed
2:12:55that they were living in the last three
2:12:57and a half years of end time
2:12:59tribulation so whatever it is it's not
2:13:03pre-tribulationism in conclusion
2:13:06pre-tribbers know they can't find
2:13:08anything close to pre-tribulationism in
2:13:10the early church fathers
2:13:12the early church almost without
2:13:13exception taught that the rapture would
2:13:15take place at some unknown time
2:13:18after the antichrist arrived and began
2:13:20persecuting christians
2:13:22in other words if you had to pick a
2:13:24modern rapture position that best fit
2:13:26the early church
2:13:27it's obviously the pre-wrath position
2:13:34if you liked this film please consider
2:13:37sharing it with your friends and family
2:13:39it is by far the best way to help get
2:13:41the message out
2:13:43we are counting on the small percentage
2:13:45of you that understood
2:13:46and were impacted by this film to reach
2:13:48those that you feel
2:13:49need to hear this message this film is
2:13:52free on the web
2:13:53but you can buy physical copies at our
2:13:55website
2:13:56seven pre-trib sevenpretribproblems.com
2:13:59where we will provide free resources
2:14:01videos and much more content to learn
2:14:04about the pre-wrath rapture
2:14:06thanks for watching
2:14:15[Music]
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2:14:41[Music]
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