60 Minutes Interviews Clifford Irving (F For Fake) — Transcript

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1. 0:05In tonight's classic update, something
2. 0:07we don't get the chance to do very
3. 0:09often, we talked with someone who flat
4. 0:11out lied to us when we first interviewed
5. 0:13him.
6. 0:14Back in 1972, when 60 Minutes had been
7. 0:17on the air for just 4 years, one of the
8. 0:19strangest news stories of the day was
9. 0:21the search for the reclusive billionaire
10. 0:23Howard Hughes.
11. 0:25Several years earlier, Howard Hughes, an
12. 0:27aviation pioneer, movie mogul,
13. 0:29adventurer,
14. 0:30labeled by some the most glamorous man
15. 0:32in America, had virtually disappeared.
16. 0:35Journalists around the world were
17. 0:37hunting for him, and we were no
18. 0:38exception. Enter
19. 0:40Clifford Irving.
20. 0:42Irving claimed that he had written, with
21. 0:44the help of the eccentric billionaire,
22. 0:46the autobiography of Howard Hughes.
23. 0:48McGraw-Hill and Life magazine were about
24. 0:50to publish it, but there were questions
25. 0:53about the book's authenticity. So,
26. 0:55Clifford Irving agreed to an interview
27. 0:57on 60 Minutes to put those questions to
28. 1:00rest. But remember, everything you're
29. 1:03about to hear is a lie.
30. 1:06There are those who suggest, Mr. Irving,
31. 1:08Mike, there are those who will suggest
32. 1:10anything. I'm sure I know what you're
33. 1:12going to say.
34. 1:12>> that this book is a fake.
35. 1:14>> book is a fake. It is not. When you last
36. 1:17saw him, what did he look like?
37. 1:20Hughes is a man
38. 1:22almost as tall as I am, 6'3". Weighs?
39. 1:26Under 140 lb. Does he wear a beard?
40. 1:30Uh not a real one.
41. 1:32Not a real one.
42. 1:34What I mean is, he has on occasion worn
43. 1:37false beards
44. 1:38and false moustaches and wigs. With you?
45. 1:41>> Mike, I said there's a James Bond set up
46. 1:43here that that that that's out of the
47. 1:45worst possible detective novel you could
48. 1:47ever
49. 1:48read. 3/23/71, I hope Less than 2 months
50. 1:51after our interview, Clifford Irving
51. 1:53admitted his book was a hoax.
52. 1:56Time magazine dubbed him con man of the
53. 1:58year.
54. 1:59And we too gave him an award worthy of
55. 2:01his performance. 60 Minutes nominates
56. 2:04Clifford Irving as best actor of the
57. 2:06year in a starring role. Irving had to
58. 2:08pay back the $765,000
59. 2:11advance to his publisher. He was also
60. 2:13convicted of fraud and he served 14
61. 2:16months in federal prison.
62. 2:18We meet again.
63. 2:21How many years? 27.
64. 2:25Long time, Mike.
65. 2:27You know something?
66. 2:30I couldn't figure out
67. 2:32for the life of me whether you were
68. 2:33telling the truth or not. That's what I
69. 2:35wanted to ask you if you believed me
70. 2:37then.
71. 2:39I rather did.
72. 2:41The technicians, the camera people, Mhm.
73. 2:43they said, "No, he's lying. He is
74. 2:45lying."
75. 2:47But but
76. 2:49I I was not persuaded that you were
77. 2:51lying at all.
78. 2:54Aren't you ashamed that you lied to me
79. 2:57so blatantly? Yes.
80. 2:59I was I was lying to everybody. You were
81. 3:01not different from anyone else. I was
82. 3:04on on the train of lies then and I
83. 3:06couldn't jump off.
84. 3:07How did you first hatch the idea to do
85. 3:10the {quote} autobiography of Howard
86. 3:13Hughes?
87. 3:13I was reading a copy of Newsweek which
88. 3:15told of Hughes's
89. 3:17um
90. 3:18isolated state in the Bahamas
91. 3:21and I thought what a wonderful idea to
92. 3:23write a biography of him, an authorized
93. 3:26biography, and pretend that that he's
94. 3:29giving me the information. Irving told
95. 3:31me he believed that Howard Hughes was
96. 3:33too ill to come forward and repudiate
97. 3:36the book. So you figured
98. 3:39I figured What's to lose? I mean I He
99. 3:42won't come forward. I wasn't thinking
100. 3:44clearly. It was a wild idea. I was
101. 3:47running away from home. I was being a
102. 3:48bad boy and I loved every minute of it.
103. 3:51I take it, sir, you do not know a man
104. 3:53named Clifford Irving then. No, I never
105. 3:56saw him. I never even heard of him until
106. 3:58But when Hughes finally agreed to a
107. 4:00bizarre telephone interview with seven
108. 4:02reporters, Irving's story began to
109. 4:04unravel.
110. 4:05At first, he, Irving, refused to do
111. 4:08interviews. I was afraid that if I went
112. 4:11before a crowd of newspaper men or a pro
113. 4:13like you,
114. 4:15I would come apart at the seams. I
115. 4:16wouldn't be able to go through with
116. 4:18this. So, I said no interviews. Howard
117. 4:20doesn't want me to do any interviews.
118. 4:22Until those questions have been cleared
119. 4:24up. Howard may not have wanted him to,
120. 4:26but the publisher, still believing the
121. 4:28book was legitimate, insisted.
122. 4:30McGraw-Hill came to me and said, "You
123. 4:32have got to do something. You have got
124. 4:34to stand up and fight and say this is
125. 4:36for this is for real and we've arranged
126. 4:38for you to go on 60 Minutes right after
127. 4:41the Super Bowl."
128. 4:43I'm at with Clifford Irving.
129. 4:44>> So, with my heart fluttering and that
130. 4:47manuscript clutched against my chest for
131. 4:50protection.
132. 4:51>> Why couldn't you simply come to us?
133. 4:52>> I faced you. Were there any witnesses to
134. 4:55your meetings with Howard Hughes?
135. 4:57Any other human beings?
136. 4:59>> Yes, there were. Who? A researcher. By
137. 5:02name?
138. 5:02>> A man named Richard Suskind.
139. 5:04And Hughes said, "I suppose you know who
140. 5:07I am."
141. 5:08Suskind said, "Yes, I do, Mr. Hughes.
142. 5:10How do you do?" He started to stick out
143. 5:12his hand and withdrew it instantly
144. 5:13because Hughes is not very keen on
145. 5:15shaking hands. Hughes reached into his
146. 5:17pocket and and and pulled out a bag. We
147. 5:20we still disagree. I say it was a
148. 5:21cellophane bag. Suskind says it was a
149. 5:23paper bag.
150. 5:24And he said to
151. 5:26pick Suskind to have a prune.
152. 5:29And Suskind took a prune
153. 5:32and said,
154. 5:33"This is an organic prune, isn't it?"
155. 5:36Hughes said, "Yes, yes. How did you
156. 5:37know?" He said, "It's the only kind I
157. 5:39eat though. All the rest are poison."
158. 5:40And then they were off and running on a
159. 5:42discussion of organic foods and vitamins
160. 5:45and whatnot while I stood there like a
161. 5:46dummy.
162. 5:48I would have believed me if I'd heard
163. 5:49that. It sounds
164. 5:51>> Had I been an onlooker, I would have
165. 5:53believed that man.
166. 5:54>> Yes. Because obviously he was well
167. 5:56rehearsed. I had told the story many
168. 5:58times before then, the prune story, all
169. 6:01those stories.
170. 6:01>> To whom had you told them?
171. 6:02>> Oh, McGraw-Hill executives, Time-Life
172. 6:05executives had had You'd taken them in,
173. 6:07too?
174. 6:07>> interrogated me.
175. 6:08>> Yeah.
176. 6:10And I was filled with the success of my
177. 6:13of my fairy tale.
178. 6:15Do you think Howard Hughes ever saw that
179. 6:17tape? I don't know if he saw it.
180. 6:19Probably did. Probably laughed like hell
181. 6:21when he saw it.
182. 6:22At least my Howard would have laughed
183. 6:24because he he had a great sense of
184. 6:27humor.
185. 6:28But I would think that
186. 6:30to be found out to be such a liar would
187. 6:32have been desperately deflating. It was
188. 6:35shaming. It was deflating, shaming, it
189. 6:37was awful.
190. 6:39And I I retreated into uh
191. 6:43Well, I retreated to federal prison.
192. 6:45Where Irving acknowledges he was hardly
193. 6:47a model prisoner. I was at Allenwood,
194. 6:49which is called a country club. I was
195. 6:52kicked out of there, though. Why?
196. 6:53>> Well, bad behavior. I was caught with a
197. 6:55bottle of gin.
198. 6:56And then I went to Lewisburg
199. 6:58Penitentiary in solitary. I was expelled
200. 7:01from there because I didn't fit in and
201. 7:03sent to Danbury in Connecticut, which
202. 7:05>> Which is another country club.
203. 7:06>> No, it's not. Medium security prison.
204. 7:09Oh. Uh very confining, didn't like it. I
205. 7:11became chairman of the inmate committee,
206. 7:13got into a lot of trouble, was accused
207. 7:16of fomenting a riot, was accused of
208. 7:19uh plotting to kill the warden. All of
209. 7:22this in 14 months? You went through
210. 7:23these three prisons and got into this
211. 7:25much trouble?
212. 7:26>> Yes.
213. 7:27Yeah, I have that propensity.
214. 7:29But but it it all worked out well. I I
215. 7:31was innocent for a change.
216. 7:34Today, a repentant Clifford Irving
217. 7:36divides his time between Mexico and New
218. 7:39Mexico.
219. 7:41He's the author of more than a dozen
220. 7:42books, most of them fiction. They're
221. 7:45good books. They've all been published.
222. 7:47All but one, the famed autobiography of
223. 7:50Howard Hughes, the book that almost
224. 7:51ended Irving's career, was privately
225. 7:54published and sold on the internet.
226. 7:57Did you ever
227. 7:59in any way get to talk with or
228. 8:04get a communication from Howard Hughes
229. 8:07about the book?
230. 8:09Nothing whatever.
231. 8:11We We never met. We never communicated.
232. 8:14Except on some
233. 8:15astral level.
234. 8:18I I convinced myself that I knew him
235. 8:20intimately. You wondered how I could lie
236. 8:23so
237. 8:24fluently
238. 8:25to you. That's because in at some level
239. 8:28I believed everything I was telling you.
240. 8:31I believed we met. I believed the prune
241. 8:33story. I believed I knew his life
242. 8:36better than any biographer because I had
243. 8:39imagined it.
244. 8:4260 Minutes will continue in a moment.