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6,338 Days in Hell (Part 1 of 2) 🔥 Feat. Marty Tankleff - Ep: 51 | HellHasAnExitPod.com — Transcript

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0:12Hey, welcome to the Hell Has an Exit
0:13podcast. I'm your host, Brian Alzate.
0:16This show is not affiliated with any
0:18specific 12-step program. If you or a
0:20loved one is struggling with an
0:21addiction, please find a local 12-step
0:23meeting.
0:24If you believe you may need detox or
0:26drug treatment of any kind, please call
0:29888-699-9395
0:34to speak to a specialist. This show is
0:36sponsored by United Recovery Project, a
0:38state-of-the-art drug and alcohol rehab
0:40facility. You can visit our website at
0:43unitedrecoveryproject.com.
0:53Hey, welcome to Hell Has an Exit. I'm
0:54your host, Brian Alzate. Please send
0:57this podcast to a friend if you think
0:59they're struggling with an addiction. If
1:00you have friends and family who you
1:02think this podcast can help out, please,
1:04you know, the more subscribers, the more
1:05people that are listening, the more
1:06people we can help out and try to spread
1:08that positivity and hope on this
1:10podcast. We interview a lot of
1:12recovering addicts. We do wrongful
1:14conviction stories, basically anyone who
1:16has a story of overcoming hell and
1:18living to tell about it. We're probably
1:20most vocal on Instagram. You could go on
1:22our Instagram, Hell Has an Exit, and
1:25check out our videos. We post a lot of
1:26cool stuff on there. We're also full
1:28video now. So, we are on YouTube. If you
1:31want to watch each episode, you can
1:33watch it on YouTube or you can also
1:34listen on Spotify, Apple Music. So, with
1:37that being said, I want to introduce our
1:39guest today, Marty Tankleff. This guy
1:41has an insane story, one of the craziest
1:43stories I've ever heard. Shout out to my
1:45friend Tina. She introduced me to him.
1:47She sent me this article of this guy. I
1:49had a kind of heard about it before, but
1:51he just has an amazing story. This guy
1:53was sentenced, he was 17 years old at
1:56the time, and he ended up serving 13 and
1:581/2 years in prison and was charged for
2:01killing both of his parents. And this
2:03guy was totally innocent. He was a
2:05senior in high school. He fights the
2:08case, proves his innocence, comes out,
2:10becomes an attorney, sues the city, sues
2:13the state, wins $13 million, proves his
2:16innocence, and he also basically does
2:18this 24/7 as an attorney. All he does is
2:21wrongful convictions and criminal cases.
2:23He's just got an amazing and amazing
2:25story. He's such a good dude. Uh I
2:27really had a pleasure speaking with him.
2:29Uh I hope you guys enjoy his story. It
2:30is long. It's 2 hours, so we're going to
2:32separate it from a part one and a part
2:35two. So this week will be part one. Next
2:37week will be part two. Hope you guys
2:39enjoy. Thanks for listening. All right.
2:41Welcome to Hell Has an Exit. Uh I'm your
2:43host Brian Alzate. On this show, we
2:44interview pretty much anyone with a
2:47survival story of hell. It's cool.
2:49You're telling me that you actually have
2:50a tattoo of someone walking out of the
2:52gates of hell. It's really crazy.
2:54I do, Brian. Thank you for having me.
2:55And and yes, my tattoo, the one tattoo
2:58that I have, is a man walking out from
3:01the gates of hell
3:03uh with flames. And in the gates are the
3:06number of days I was in prison, which
3:08was 6,338
3:10days.
3:11Wow.
3:12And the man is just almost a silhouette,
3:14but it's clearly a man walking out. And
3:16it was a tattoo that it took me a long
3:18time to kind of figure out. Did I really
3:20want to do it? Did I not want to do it?
3:22But it was really three tattoo images
3:25combined together. It's something I
3:27don't regret.
3:28Yeah. Marty Tankleff? Does he say it
3:30like that?
3:30Yes, Marty Tankleff.
3:31Marty Tankleff. Welcome. You know, it's
3:33exciting to have you here. You have an
3:35incredible story. We both have a mutual
3:37friend. She linked us up together. You
3:38flew down to Florida, and I just wanted,
3:40you know, take a moment to, you know,
3:42say I appreciate you taking time out of
3:43your day to tell your story and really
3:46without hesitation. You know, I messaged
3:48you. We talked for a day and a half and
3:50a week and a half later you're on a
3:51flight. so I appreciate that.
3:53In this day and age, I I think the
3:55personal connection and and do meeting
3:57people in person just makes a
3:58difference. I mean, we're we're we're
4:00living in a world where we're they're so
4:01distance or we're focused so much on
4:03technology and zooms that you don't get
4:06that true emotional connection when you
4:09do it in person. And something like this
4:11really should be done in person.
4:12Absolutely. Yeah, 1,000% and I know
4:14that, you know, sometimes we can do it
4:16over the phone, it's just not the same.
4:18Yes, so you have an incredible story. I
4:20try not to do too much research cuz I I
4:22knew like a gist of it and like Tina was
4:24telling me and telling me and um you
4:26know, I just want to hear it from you.
4:27So, if you want to start from the
4:29beginning, where you from, where you
4:30raised, you know?
4:31Sure. I'll I'm going to do a little bit
4:33reverse, if you don't mind.
4:34Sure. Sure.
4:35If the state of New York would have had
4:37their way,
4:38I would be 90T 20 3844
4:42until the year of 2040.
4:44Hm.
4:44So, if the state of New York and Suffolk
4:46County had their way, I would still be
4:49rotting away in prison, wouldn't be
4:51eligible till the year 2040.
4:53Hm.
4:54Thankfully, I'm not.
4:55And all of this started in Suffolk
4:57County, New York in 1988.
5:01I was a teenage kid living the good life
5:04on the North Shore in a small community
5:06of Port Jefferson. I lived in uh a
5:09little smaller community inside of Port
5:11Jefferson called Belle Terre.
5:13Uh went to Port Jefferson High School,
5:14which was Earl L. Vandermeulen High
5:16School.
5:17And you know, I thought I was kind of
5:20like the everyday teenage kid back then.
5:22Mhm.
5:23Except on September 7th, hell began for
5:26me.
5:27I woke up to discover that my father was
5:31clinging to life in his office
5:33and my mother was deceased.
5:35Wow.
5:35And from that moment forward,
5:38for a long time, my life was never the
5:42same.
5:43So, you woke up and then midst of this,
5:45did someone break into the house?
5:47So, my father had a business partner by
5:50the name of Jerry Stuerman.
5:52Mhm.
5:52Uh Jerry Stuerman
5:54owned bagel stores. My father had
5:56invested approximately half a million
5:59dollars
6:00in those bagel stores prior to 1988 over
6:03the past few years.
6:05I didn't know it at that time, but my
6:06father had started to demand some of the
6:09money back.
6:10Mhm.
6:11Some of it was demanded back through
6:12notes, and there were other business
6:14dealings going on.
6:16My father was a tough guy, but he didn't
6:19really let on everything that was going
6:20on. And later on we learned that my
6:22father had reached out to a friend to
6:24learn about possibly purchasing a
6:26shotgun.
6:28We learned that my father had told my
6:33legal guardian, who was also the family
6:34attorney, Mike Fox, that 2 weeks before
6:38the murders that my father told him that
6:41Jerry Stuerman wouldn't [ __ ] with him
6:43because he knew where the bones were
6:44buried.
6:45Mhm.
6:45You mean none of us really knew at that
6:47time in 1988 what all of this meant.
6:50Mhm.
6:51Uh we later learned that what the bones
6:54were buried meant was that Jerry
6:57Stuerman's son, Todd, was a drug dealer
7:00dealing in kilos of cocaine, marijuana,
7:03and other drugs.
7:04Mhm.
7:05And the bagel stores were essentially
7:08money laundering.
7:09Mhm.
7:09And growing up you have no idea any of
7:11this is going on. You just live like a
7:12normal life. You're just going to a
7:13regular high school.
7:14Going to a regular high school. I mean,
7:16I actually worked in the bagel stores.
7:17Never saw any of this going on. Probably
7:20because I wasn't I you know, I don't
7:21want to say I was aloof, but in many
7:23ways like that didn't really concern me.
7:25I was probably more interested in having
7:26a bagel and dating girls. And you know,
7:29I was a flashy guy back then. I was a
7:30flashy kid. I was a show-off. I was
7:32spoiled.
7:33Mhm.
7:33But my father was a tough guy, you know,
7:36grew up and didn't have a lot growing
7:38up. And even Even he was having problems
7:41with Jerry Stuerman, it didn't stop him.
7:43And my father was part of a weekly poker
7:45game, and it just so happens on
7:47September 6th, the poker game was at our
7:49house.
7:50Mhm.
7:51So, when I woke up on the morning of
7:53September 7th, which was supposed to be
7:55my first day of senior year,
7:58I woke up and noticed that the outside
8:00lights were on. As I'm walking through
8:02the house, the front door was open. And
8:05as I continue walking through the house,
8:07I just know something's not right
8:09because
8:10normally at the end of any poker game,
8:13my father would have shut the house up,
8:14the front door would be locked, the
8:15lights would be off, the alarm would be
8:17set. None of that existed here.
8:19Mhm.
8:20And I walked all the way through the
8:22house to where the poker game was
8:24because
8:26everything just seemed like it was odd.
8:27Like, you know, like I said, the lights
8:28were on. And I discovered my father, who
8:32was bleeding in his office chair,
8:34exactly where the poker game was.
8:36Wow.
8:37Now, what happens from there?
8:38I ended up calling 911. I ended up
8:41looking for my mother, and I discovered
8:43my mother had been deceased.
8:45And the police came.
8:48And the ambulance members came. And
8:50instead of me being able to go to the
8:52hospital, cuz my father was alive, he
8:54was clinging to life,
8:55I was separated from everybody.
8:57I was What I say is in many ways I was
9:00kidnapped.
9:01But you called 911.
9:03I called 911. I provided first aid to my
9:06father before the EMTs got there.
9:08Mhm.
9:09And
9:10Was it a gunshot wound?
9:11Knife wounds.
9:12Knife wounds.
9:12Knife wounds.
9:13Oh, man.
9:14And you know, I'll tell you more about
9:16this because we actually through private
9:17investigations and further
9:19investigations we uncovered
9:20Yeah.
9:21uh who was responsible.
9:22Mhm.
9:23But I was kidnapped essentially that
9:25morning from everybody. I was taken away
9:28by law enforcement. I was never allowed
9:31to go to the hospital where my father
9:32was.
9:33I was driven probably 45 minutes away
9:39from my house
9:40and everybody was lied to. Uh so much so
9:44that the leading type of instance of
9:45communicating on his radio, he drove
9:49away and used a payphone to make sure
9:52that his phone conversation wasn't
9:53recorded.
9:55I was brought to police headquarters in
9:57Yaphank.
9:58Brought into an interrogation room, a
10:00windowless room that had a desk, some
10:02chairs, and a file cabinet.
10:04And I was interrogated for hours.
10:07And throughout that entire process,
10:09there was no audio recording, no video
10:11recording. Even though Suffolk County
10:13had policy and procedure in place
10:16They had knees to
10:17that required them to audio or video
10:20record it. They had the technology, they
10:23chose not to use it.
10:24Mhm.
10:25And I've always said, had there been an
10:27audio or video recording of everything
10:29that happened in that room,
10:31Mhm. This never would have happened.
10:32never would have went to prison.
10:34What ended up happening was is that at
10:36some point
10:38What were they asking you?
10:39You know, who do you think did this?
10:41What was your Where were you yesterday?
10:43And consistently, I said Stuerman.
10:45Because I knew that
10:46There was an issue
10:48issue there.
10:48That had been brewing.
10:50And little did I know when I was saying
10:52Stuerman, so was the rest of my family.
10:54Everyone else was saying Stuerman.
10:55Yeah.
10:56But it it got so bad that even before we
10:59left my house to go to Yaphank,
11:02Mike Fox, who was the family attorney,
11:04who was my godfather, showed up at the
11:06house
11:08looking for me, gave McCready his
11:11business card that said attorney at law,
11:13and said, "I represent Marty."
11:15That's the lieutenant?
11:16No, McCready was the detective who
11:18interrogated me.
11:19Okay.
11:20Yeah, so so there's a few names, okay?
11:23McCready is one name B Everyone should
11:25remember that. That was the lead
11:27detective
11:28Okay.
11:29who as we
11:31go into the story, you'll understand how
11:35suspicious that he was there first that
11:37morning because he was off duty that
11:39day. He was supposed to be working at
11:41his construction site.
11:43However, he was the first homicide
11:45detective at my house.
11:48And he ended up knowing facts while he
11:51was driving to the house that he
11:53shouldn't have known.
11:54Mhm.
11:54Like he knew that there was a card game
11:57the night before. If he hadn't spoken to
11:59anybody, how would he know that?
12:01Mhm.
12:02We later learned how he knew about that.
12:04His relationship to Jerry Stuerman, my
12:06father's business partner.
12:07Mhm.
12:08So then your attorney shows up there,
12:10tries to tell him, "Hey, you're not
12:12talking to my client because you're
12:14going to talk to me." And he just
12:16doesn't He neglects that.
12:17McCreedy ignores it.
12:19Okay.
12:19Doesn't even acknowledge that I'm there,
12:22lies to him.
12:23And McCreedy takes me to police
12:25headquarters.
12:26We later learned that McCreedy had told
12:29Mike Fox that, "Oh, Marty's on his way
12:30to the hospital." which was a lie.
12:32Mhm.
12:33And back then in the '80s, Suffolk
12:35County had a consistent policy of
12:40interrogations leading to confessions.
12:42That's how they solved a lot of their
12:43homicide cases.
12:44Mhm.
12:45There was a report that ended up being
12:47issued that talked about how, I think
12:50it's Suffolk County that had a 97%
12:53to 99% rate, which was unheard of. I
12:56mean, it was so high that the detectives
12:58at their softball game wore shirts that
13:01said like 99% on it cuz they were so
13:03proud of it.
13:04Mhm.
13:04And that's because the tactics that they
13:06used
13:07were super
13:08were violent and
13:10and psychological. You know, violence
13:13and psychological torture is really what
13:16they embody and they embolden and they
13:18allowed The administration allowed the
13:21detectives to do that. But what's even
13:24worse is that the The States Supreme
13:26Court allows detectives to lie to
13:29youthful suspects.
13:31That is slowly changing now.
13:33To youthful suspects, what does that
13:34mean?
13:35So, people who were, you know, under 18.
13:37Okay.
13:38And I was I had just turned 17 on August
13:4229th.
13:43When you mean lie, what do you like how
13:45is lying to an adult that much different
13:47than what lying to a kid? Like why are
13:48they allowed to lie to an adult?
13:51They're allowed to lie to everyone, but
13:53it's even worse when you lie to a kid.
13:54Of course.
13:55And I mean thankfully I've been involved
13:57some recently some legislation that
13:59there are some states who have passed
14:00legislation that prevent law enforcement
14:03from lying to all suspects.
14:06Basically like saying, "Oh, your friend
14:09already told us everything." and stuff
14:10like that.
14:11Even worse. In my case, they said, "We
14:14have your hair in your mother's hands."
14:17They said, "Your father was pump full of
14:19adrenaline and he identified you as the
14:21murderer."
14:23Now, every
14:25interrogation expert, every false
14:26confession expert who has reviewed my
14:28case said, "It is probably one of the
14:30worst examples of lying to a youthful
14:33suspect." Because they said, "How many
14:35kids, if they were told that their
14:38parents said they did something, would
14:39just accept it?"
14:40And just get scared and think that like
14:43the adults know best and know it'll get
14:44sorted out later. Yeah.
14:46And and and the way interrogations work,
14:49at least in in my interrogation,
14:51Mhm.
14:51was no matter what I said was truthful,
14:55when the interrogation really there was
14:57a defining point where I think it went
14:59from interview to interrogation. Because
15:01the tone changed, the anger changed.
15:05It was almost like if I said, "I didn't
15:07do it." they're like, "Marty, we don't
15:08want to hear that. Just tell us you did
15:09it."
15:10Mhm.
15:10"Marty, we know you used this knife to
15:12do this." I didn't use any knife so I
15:14didn't do it. "Marty, just tell us you
15:15did this."
15:17And every single question that was, I
15:20guess you could say they're relevant to
15:21them. It's how it went. So, it was
15:24almost like
15:25give me you know, they would say
15:27something to me, I would deny it because
15:29it wasn't truthful, and their response
15:31was, "Marty, if you don't tell us what
15:33we want to hear, okay, this is not going
15:35to end."
15:36And after hours of going through this,
15:38you start to doubt yourself. You start
15:40to doubt reality.
15:42You start feeling alone and isolated
15:45because here you are 45 minutes away
15:48from everybody in an interrogation room.
15:51And everyone around you, I mean, and
15:53these are people that I was brought up
15:54to trust. I My father was the police
15:58commissioner of our local town. So, I
15:59was brought up to trust law enforcement,
16:01believe them that they're honest, that
16:03they're not going to lie to you.
16:04And when you have these detectives
16:06saying, "You know, we have your hair in
16:07your mother's hands
16:09and your father identified you." You
16:11start to doubt yourself.
16:13You start to say, "Well, you know, if
16:14you're saying like I did it, maybe I did
16:16do it."
16:18And what's amazing is that there is no
16:21videotape of what happened in that room.
16:22There is no audiotape of what happened
16:24in that room.
16:25All that exists are basically what I say
16:28and what law enforcement says. Now,
16:30there's a three-page written confession
16:33that McCreary wrote.
16:35Never in my hand. It's not in my
16:36handwriting. It's not initialed by me.
16:39And you never signed anything.
16:40Nothing. Nothing. What I signed was like
16:42my Miranda rights card. But once again,
16:45the Miranda rights card according to
16:46policy and procedure, you had to sign
16:49it, date it, and put a time on it.
16:52You know, that's the one thing that I
16:53think people fail to realize that in
16:55cases like this, there are rules and
16:57regulations in place to protect
16:59everyone.
17:01And when you don't follow those rules or
17:03regulations, we suffer. The innocent
17:05suffer.
17:06Yeah, because I've heard stories where
17:07like someone didn't get their rights
17:09read to them and then the whole case got
17:10thrown out.
17:12That's exactly true.
17:14And in my case, that was one of the
17:15biggest issues, the Miranda rights. And
17:18I litigated the Miranda rights issue all
17:20the way up to the Second Circuit Court
17:22of Appeals, which is the highest federal
17:25court, one step below the United States
17:27Supreme Court,
17:28Mhm.
17:28and the Second Circuit agreed with me.
17:30They said, you know, "Mr. Tankleff,
17:31guess what? Your rights were violated,
17:34but they were violated under the state
17:35constitution, not the federal
17:36constitution, so there's nothing we can
17:38do."
17:39All right, so go back So, I mean, one,
17:42you know, you just seen like your mom
17:43dead. So, like, I don't even know how a
17:46kid would even be asked to, you know,
17:48questioning at that point. It's really
17:50inhumane and even crazy.
17:52Crazy.
17:52So, I hate to say it, but you're using
17:54common sense and you're using humanity.
17:57But, we know why. We know that McCready
17:59had a motivation.
18:01You know, I offered to take a polygraph.
18:03I offered to give my DNA. Whatever I
18:05could do, I was there to help them.
18:08Mhm.
18:08Because I honestly believe that, you
18:10know, that's what the police were there.
18:11They were there to help people.
18:12Mhm.
18:13It didn't end up that way, though.
18:15It ended up that they said that I had
18:17provide some kind of oral confession,
18:19admitting certain missions,
18:21and I was arrested.
18:23And that night I was charged with the
18:26murder of my mother and the attempted
18:27murder of my father,
18:29because he was still clinging to life.
18:31Was he verbal at all?
18:32No.
18:33Okay.
18:33No, he never regained consciousness and
18:35he ended up passing away several weeks
18:36later.
18:37The biggest issue that law enforcement
18:39had, I think, was that my entire family
18:42was behind me.
18:43Mhm.
18:43So, my mother's sisters, my father's
18:46brother, their kids, my friends,
18:49people who knew me
18:51were like, "There's no way Marty could
18:53have done this."
18:53Yeah.
18:54The problem is is that the media
18:57and this is something I've always said
18:59is that are a contributing factor to
19:00wrongful convictions.
19:02Is media?
19:02Is the media. When they accept what law
19:06enforcement tells them without
19:08challenging it,
19:09they're part of the problem.
19:11Mhm.
19:12And I actually had a reporter in my case
19:13who was part of the problem.
19:15And when I got out, we met up. We are
19:19friends now. And she actually wrote a
19:21mea culpa piece
19:23admitting she was wrong, that she failed
19:25in her job as a reporter.
19:27Mhm.
19:27Her job wasn't to report simply what law
19:30enforcement said, is to report the
19:32truth.
19:33Mhm. And I'm sure she's saying like this
19:35is a good story.
19:37Like this is what's going to sell, you
19:38know, this is
19:40a 17-year-old kid kills his parents is
19:42better than
19:43Well, back then, you know, the way law
19:45enforcement said was 17-year-old spoiled
19:48rich kid killed his parents for money.
19:52There's just one problem.
19:54The way my parents' wills were set up
19:56was I wasn't going to benefit till I was
19:5825 years old.
20:00Mhm.
20:01So, as my Aunt Mary Ann said, what was
20:02he going to do from 17 to 25?
20:05So, that was your motive. Wow.
20:07Okay.
20:08But, the problem is every single motive
20:10that the prosecutors came forward with,
20:14they ended up disproving themselves in
20:16the trial.
20:17Mhm.
20:18Everything.
20:18can't even believe that it goes to trial
20:20because your whole family must be like,
20:22this isn't it. It's probably this
20:24person.
20:25So, I'm going to give you a basic set of
20:27facts and you just tell me using common
20:29sense.
20:30There's two business partners. One of
20:32them is attacked, clinging to life. The
20:34other one cleans out a joint bank
20:36account,
20:37fakes his death, tells his family he's
20:39going to be swimming with the fish,
20:41flees from New York to New Jersey, New
20:43Jersey to California, has five aliases.
20:48When he's in California, he gets his
20:50hair weave changed at a club he's not a
20:52member of.
20:53Mhm.
20:54Hides out in a psychiatric treat. Calls
20:56his wife and says the word pistachio. Do
20:59you consider him a suspect?
21:01Yeah.
21:02Okay. That was Jerry That was
21:04Jerry Sturm and
21:06Jerry Sturm and my father's business
21:07partner after my father had been
21:09clinging to life for about a week to 10
21:11days,
21:12fled the jurisdiction, cleaned out a
21:14joint bank account, faked his death, had
21:17five different aliases,
21:20fled to California,
21:21Changed his hair.
21:22changed his hair,
21:23called his wife and said pistachio, cuz
21:26that was his favorite ice cream, and law
21:28enforcement claimed that in 1988 they
21:30were able to trace exactly where he was
21:34by him saying the word pistachio. And
21:36every law enforcement person I've said
21:37to he said, "Absolutely not."
21:40Um, but who do you think went out to
21:41California to bring Sturman back?
21:44McCreedy.
21:45McCreedy.
21:47And the first thing McCreedy said to him
21:49to Sturman was is did somebody pay
21:52for you to disappear? Now,
21:54at that time I didn't know this, but
21:57Sturman's son Todd was a drug dealer.
22:00Mhm.
22:01Jerry Sturman had hired bikers to commit
22:03violent acts in the past,
22:06and Todd Sturman had enforcers,
22:10and one of those enforcers was Joseph
22:12Creeden.
22:13So, this was all information that I
22:14didn't really know.
22:16Joseph Creeden is the police officer?
22:18No, Joseph Creeden is one of the
22:20murderers.
22:20Okay.
22:21So, Joseph Creeden was one of Todd
22:23Sturman's henchmen.
22:25Henchman.
22:26And he was one of the individuals that
22:28was actually responsible for my parents'
22:30murders.
22:31Mhm.
22:32But you don't know this at the time. You
22:34go to trial.
22:35So, do they bring him They bring him in
22:36for questioning, right?
22:38Not really.
22:38Or are they bringing him in or was he a
22:40suspect on the stand or anything like
22:41that?
22:41No. No, I mean they brought him back. He
22:42was very very calm.
22:45Um, but prior to trial, we have what in
22:48New York is called the Huntley hearing.
22:50Mhm.
22:51So, it's a hearing to assess any
22:53statements that were attributed to me,
22:55were they made voluntarily?
22:57And at that time, my lawyer was running
23:01for district attorney in Suffolk County
23:03and the judge who was hearing the case
23:05was in contention for running for
23:07district attorney.
23:09So, everybody said to me, "Listen,
23:10Marty, you're not winning this hearing."
23:11I What do you mean? The facts were on my
23:13side, the laws were on my side. They
23:14said, "If the judge ever wants to
23:16actually run for DA, he's got to rule
23:17against you because he needs to curry
23:20the favor of law enforcement. And if he
23:22rules in your favor, guess what? The
23:24case is over with." So, he rules against
23:27me. He allows what the police said I
23:29said uh admitted as evidence. And in the
23:34early to midsummer of 1988,
23:38I went on trial.
23:40Do you think if you would have switched
23:41attorneys, it would have played out
23:42differently?
23:43No.
23:44Not not at all. I mean, knowing what I
23:45know now, no. Suffolk County was back
23:50then
23:51one of the most corrupt
23:53law enforcement district attorneys ever.
23:57And I mean, there's a lot to get into,
23:59but I can I can tell you right now.
24:01Yeah, okay.
24:01I I mean, McCready was represented in
24:04private practice by an individual by the
24:06name of Tom Spota.
24:08Mhm.
24:08When all of the new evidence came
24:10forward in my case, Tom Spota was the
24:12district attorney. We argued, "So, how
24:15can you be the district attorney, okay,
24:18defend this case while you represented
24:20Sturman at some point?" Well, where do
24:22you think Tom Spota is today?
24:24Tom Spota was sentenced to 5 years in
24:26federal prison a few weeks ago
24:28Wow.
24:29while he
24:30for his conduct while he was a sitting
24:32district attorney.
24:34Wow.
24:35I thought district attorneys couldn't go
24:37to jail for what they did in
24:39So, they can. It was It was It was him.
24:41So, anybody who Googles Tom Spota
24:44and Christopher McPartland and Chief
24:47Burke,
24:48Mhm.
24:48they covered up an assault that Chief
24:51Burke had perpetrated.
24:53And I believe what's come out is just
24:55the tip of the iceberg of all of the
24:57wrongdoings that Tom Spota did.
24:59Because I think in, you know, history
25:01and books or whatever you hear about
25:03these crooked cops, but you don't hear
25:04about crooked DAs.
25:06Very rarely. There was a law professor,
25:09Bennett Gershman, who said that
25:10Because it's like you're the attorney,
25:12you know, it's like like you're the one
25:13who's supposed to like believe in the
25:14law and defend the law and I I guess
25:17cops are the same way. I don't know.
25:18It's really
25:19Bennett Gershman said that the Suffolk
25:21County DA's office is the wild, wild
25:23west of law enforcement. In the sense
25:25that they do whatever the F they want to
25:27do and they just don't care.
25:29And, you know, when you hear some of the
25:31stories that have come out about Spota,
25:34it was like he was the emperor. He was
25:35like the dictator.
25:37Everybody was fearful of him.
25:40Mhm.
25:41And, you know, he One of my lawyers said
25:44to me, he said, "You know, Morty, you've
25:45been out over 10 years and in 10 years,
25:48look what's happened to almost all the
25:50people that were responsible for putting
25:51you in prison or keeping you in prison.
25:53Mhm.
25:53They've either died or they're on their
25:55way to prison themselves.
25:57Mhm.
25:58To me, if that's not karma, I'm not
25:59really sure what is.
26:00Yeah.
26:01But I know I'm going to go back.
26:02Yeah, so
26:03There's so much There's so much to this.
26:05let's go to trial. So, you go to trial.
26:07I I go to trial.
26:0817-year-old kid.
26:0918
26:1018 at this time?
26:1118 at this time because it was I was
26:13arrested September 7th, 1988.
26:15Mhm.
26:16The trial was in 1990 and we had
26:20my mind that people sit in jail for
26:22years.
26:23I was I was out on bail. So, this this
26:24had
26:25Okay, you're out on bail.
26:26So, bail was originally denied.
26:28Okay.
26:28And my family kept pushing for bail and
26:33bail was finally granted. I was released
26:34on a million dollars bail or bond,
26:37really.
26:38So, that means your family pays a
26:39hundred grand?
26:40They paid a hundred grand. They put up a
26:42hundred grand. So, if I disappeared,
26:44They had to pay the money.
26:44pay it.
26:45And then what was even more shocking to
26:48some people is that after I was out for
26:50probably about a year, we made a
26:52modification to reduce the bond and it
26:54got reduced in half.
26:56Because while I was out I wanted to kind
26:57of try to live a little bit of a life. I
26:59mean, I I wanted to finish my senior
27:01year of high school, which
27:03was just
27:04you're going to jail? Or are you like, I
27:05didn't do it, it's going to be fine? Or
27:07both?
27:08I never thought I'd go to prison because
27:10back in 1988 and 1989 and 1990,
27:14I had a faith in the system. I had a
27:16faith that innocent people don't go to
27:18jail. Innocent people don't get
27:20convicted.
27:21Mhm.
27:22And I remember when that started to
27:24change just a little bit.
27:26And that was during jury deliberations
27:28because, you know, one of the lawyers
27:30said to me,
27:32you know, the longer deliberations go,
27:34the better it is.
27:36I waited to get a verdict on the eighth
27:38day of deliberations.
27:40And, you know, people can watch the
27:42video online, but all I remember was
27:44hearing not guilty first and then
27:46guilty.
27:47Mhm.
27:48Don't remember anything after that. I
27:49mean, I I've seen the video so I know it
27:51now.
27:51Yeah.
27:52But back then, the next thing I remember
27:56is being escorted to the jail,
27:59going to the property room and the
28:00property room also saying to me, "Marty,
28:02what are you doing here?" And I remember
28:04just looking at him and saying, "Why do
28:05you think I'm here?"
28:06They said, "Marty, there's no way they
28:07found you guilty. We know you didn't do
28:09it." I go, "Why else am I here?"
28:11The police officer said this?
28:12Was it Was it
28:12No, a guard.
28:14Yeah, whoever was I don't even know if
28:15what they were back then, but yeah. So,
28:17that's me. Because my trial was public.
28:20gavel to gavel the whole time.
28:21have known about it. People probably
28:22knew your dad in the community. Your
28:24family was all behind you.
28:27So, even though the media had put that
28:29that stuff out, there was a lot of
28:30people in the community that just
28:32thought there's no way you did it
28:33anyways and
28:35There was a a ton of people that knew I
28:37didn't do it, believed I didn't do it.
28:40There were people who wanted to come
28:41forward, but they were scared. And we've
28:44learned
28:44are they going to say? Oh, hey, you
28:45probably didn't do it, you know.
28:47This I mean my case was so horrible on
28:50so many levels from the police they
28:53never interviewed like friends of mine.
28:56My own trial lawyer has admitted that he
28:58was partially ineffective like he didn't
29:00call witnesses enough witnesses to the
29:02stand because the jury was left with
29:05hearing a story about me primarily from
29:08the prosecution.
29:10But you know anybody who thinks that
29:12juries are
29:14safe havens or they think that things
29:16don't go wrong.
29:17Mhm.
29:18I had a juror who was giving hand
29:19signals to the prosecutor during
29:21deliberations of which way it was going.
29:23I had after the guilty verdict I had
29:26witnesses come forward saying that
29:29McCreary the lead detective the
29:31prosecutor and the judge and the juror
29:33were celebrating together.
29:35I mean if you think there are things
29:36that could go wrong in a case they went
29:39wrong for me.
29:39I think the whole concept of a jury is
29:42just like insane that that's still like
29:44part of the system that we use because
29:46you're literally just picking people out
29:48of a hat that have zero knowledge of the
29:51law or
29:52like sometimes when I watch it on TV I
29:54can't even believe that this is still
29:56the way we do things.
29:58You know everybody says well doesn't the
29:59law say a jury of your peers right? So I
30:03always tell people what is that? What
30:04really is that right? So if you're
30:06African-American you're 25
30:09and all of a sudden you look over and
30:11you see people who are 40 to 70 all
30:15white. Is that truly a jury of your
30:17peers right? It's not.
30:19Mhm.
30:19It's one of the reasons why jury
30:21selection in America is so important to
30:23create diversity.
30:25I honestly think that court officers are
30:27really
30:29the best jurors ever.
30:31To this day I'm still friends with some
30:33of the court officers that covered my
30:35case.
30:36Because they said Marty we knew you were
30:38innocent back then.
30:39I I a court officer who re-
30:42And a court
30:42officer is just someone who like they
30:44don't do anything, right?
30:46No, they don't.
30:47I mean what I mean is like what like
30:49like what do they do?
30:50You're going to piss off your court
30:51officer when you say that. I'm going to
30:53I'm going to I'm going to defend them.
30:54They do a lot, right? So So court
30:56officers really are
30:58I thought they just like make sure that
30:59no one throws a punch or something.
31:01They do a lot more than that. So court
31:03officers are really an integral part of
31:05the system. Uh you know, while going to
31:07law school, I actually had a class with
31:11a captain who was a court officer.
31:13Okay.
31:14And we did a court observation with him.
31:16We did a tour with him. And he said, you
31:19know, he goes, "There's one group of
31:20people you don't want to piss off when
31:21you go to court." And we're like, "Oh,
31:22the the judge, the sergeant." "No, the
31:24court officers."
31:25We're like, "Why?" They said, "You know,
31:27when you have a 10:00 court appearance
31:29and your client's supposed to be there
31:3010:00, guess what? Your client could get
31:32lost. He may not get brought up."
31:35And it really is true cuz the court
31:37officers are security, they're
31:39management, they ensure that the
31:43courtrooms are safe for everybody.
31:44Mhm.
31:45They help organization, they help
31:47clients, they help coordinate. They do a
31:49lot. You know, if court officers didn't
31:51exist in the courtroom, I think you
31:53would have courtroom chaos.
31:55Yeah, I didn't mean it like that. I kind
31:56of meant it like like like they're not
31:58uh making a deciding factor on the which
32:00way the the case goes. Their uh
32:02interpretation of the case is not never
32:04brought up.
32:06They're not, but you know what? Court
32:07officers who are regular people who are
32:10in the courtrooms have seen
32:12kind of have
32:15They they've seen it all. They've seen
32:16good lawyers and bad lawyers.
32:18And they can probably look at the client
32:20and some of like tell signs, you know,
32:23how people's demeanor are or whatever.
32:24They can kind of probably tell.
32:26It's interesting you said that because
32:28that's something I actually heard from a
32:30prison guard
32:31Mhm.
32:32that actually came to visit me after he
32:33retired.
32:35And he said, you know, Marty, he goes,
32:36"I've been doing this job so long, I
32:39could look at somebody, communicate with
32:41somebody, and know if they were innocent
32:43or guilty. And I know human nature
32:45shouldn't really
32:47dictate that or define that, but when
32:50you have been around prisoners or people
32:53who were accused of crimes or whatever,
32:55you get a certain gut feeling, right?
32:57You you get this gut feeling whether
32:59something's off or something's not off.
33:00Court officers are the same way.
33:02And you know, they're very helpful.
33:05Mhm.
33:05You know, with without them, I think
33:08it'd be problematic.
33:09Um but I mean, one of the court officers
33:12was there during my trial so I was found
33:14guilty.
33:15And he was there during my
33:17post-conviction hearings.
33:20And he actually stopped the proceedings
33:22and made a public speech and he said,
33:24you know, he goes,
33:25almost 20 years ago, he goes, I was here
33:27during the trial. I see a lot of the
33:28same family members. And here it is
33:31almost 20 years later, he goes, it's the
33:32same case, the same family members, and
33:35arguing the same thing. He goes,
33:37if I can retire knowing that Marty's
33:39going to be free, it's going to be okay.
33:41And thankfully, I ended up becoming free
33:44so I'm on this podcast.
33:46That's what the court officer said, 20
33:48years later?
33:49Yeah. And since then, I've actually had
33:52a lot of communication with a lot of
33:53court officers who said, Marty, we all
33:55knew you were innocent. We all knew it.
33:58And I said, why? And they said, first of
34:00all, Marty, that like we just knew you,
34:02we saw you, we knew it. They said, we
34:04also heard the evidence
34:06and we knew some of the people that were
34:07involved in the case. We knew the
34:09history of them, McCreary being one of
34:11them.
34:11Did that make you angry? It's like, if
34:14you knew, why did you not, like, I don't
34:17know, cause a scene, do something?
34:20My anger really, okay, is not the court
34:24officers, right? I say that the failures
34:27really start with law enforcement and
34:29they I with the DA's office.
34:32Wrongful convictions would not exist
34:36if you didn't have cops doing something
34:37wrong,
34:38you didn't have prosecutors who are
34:42double-checking, triple-checking,
34:43quadruple-checking,
34:45and you didn't have jurors being lied
34:47to.
34:48Because in most cases, they're jury
34:49trials.
34:50Mhm.
34:51And nobody's going to prison unless the
34:53jury says guilty.
34:54And the jury kind of believes the cop.
34:57It still blows my mind that we're still
34:58going by with like this old system. You
35:00know, it's like
35:02One of my friend's fathers was actually
35:03picked for, you know, he was doing the
35:05jury selection process, and it was a gun
35:07case.
35:08And the defendant was sitting there, and
35:11during the the selection process, my
35:13friend's father said,
35:14"You got the gun? If you don't got the
35:16gun, don't pick me."
35:18And they were like, "Okay, you're
35:20excused." He's like, you you know, he's
35:21like, "You're accusing this guy of
35:23shooting somebody. You don't got the
35:25gun, don't pick me, right?"
35:28The sad thing is that in my case, I was
35:30free.
35:31The jurors saw me during lunchtime
35:34sitting with my family.
35:37And after they found me guilty, some of
35:40them were spoken to, and they were said,
35:42you know, "Why'd you find Marty guilty?"
35:45Like, "Well, we thought he was guilty."
35:47You thought he was guilty?
35:48That's what you Yeah, there's like no
35:50Really? You thought he was guilty?
35:53The problem is is that when law
35:54enforcement
35:56delivers, you know, what I would say is
35:58a package to the jurors.
35:59Mhm.
36:00And they're left with no other answers,
36:02right? But in my case, we actually had
36:04other answers, right? Jerry Stuerman
36:06actually We called Jerry Stuerman to the
36:08stand. He testified.
36:10He Oh, so he he was in the trial?
36:12He was in the trial. I mean, we we
36:13called him. I mean, obviously he wasn't
36:15voluntarily.
36:16Yeah, yeah.
36:16Uh we called him to the witness stand.
36:19What was his alibi? What was
36:21Oh, he he said that he had left, my
36:23father was alive, that his daughter,
36:25Barry, could give him an exact time of
36:28when he got home.
36:30But, everything we now know today, we
36:33didn't know in 1988.
36:35We didn't know that, right?
36:37You know, at one point he starts
36:38screaming on the stand. He goes, "I'm
36:41not on trial here. Marty Tankleff is,
36:43and he's sitting over there."
36:45Wow, what a coward and just a
36:47psychopath, honestly. Insane.
36:49You know, it it's what happened to me
36:52shouldn't happen to any kid, any person
36:53in this world,
36:55And I can't help but think it's like you
36:56had a supportive family. Seems like you
36:58guys had some funds for for bond.
37:01There's so many people that don't have
37:02anything.
37:03And that's what I say, if it can happen
37:05to me, it can happen to anybody.
37:06Yeah, and it does.
37:07I was
37:0917 years old,
37:11upper middle class,
37:13great upbringing. I mean, there really
37:16wasn't much I couldn't have. I mean, I
37:18mean, you know, at one point the
37:20prosecutor said, "Well, I did this
37:21because I wanted a new car, or I wanted
37:24a different car." Well, at that time I
37:26had was driving a lifted pickup truck,
37:29Yeah.
37:29and I also knew that the mechanic we
37:31were dealing with was going to go to a
37:33DA auction, buy a nice car, and I was
37:36going to work with him to fix it up,
37:37right? So, he actually called that, you
37:39know, they they called the mechanic in,
37:41and the mechanic testified to that.
37:42Wow, a new trial.
37:43You know, every motive of the
37:44prosecution came up with
37:46was dispelled by their own witnesses.
37:49What uh
37:50what were they asking you on trial?
37:52So, I actually testified. You know, and
37:54that's only everybody says, you know,
37:56you know, oh, what you know, why would
37:57you expose yourself to that?
38:00And my belief was, I'm innocent. Let the
38:02world hear what happened to me. Let let
38:03me testify.
38:04Yeah.
38:05But, some people also said that I was
38:07too prepared,
38:09that I didn't look like a kid. I was
38:11dressed in a, you know, a nice suit and
38:13tie instead of dressing a little more
38:16youthful.
38:17Youthful.
38:18Uh at one point I remember somebody
38:19saying that, you know, which one of the
38:21defense table is the defendant? Because
38:24here there were three white guys all
38:26wearing suits and just looked very
38:27young.
38:28You know, one of the things that I was
38:30told was don't look at the jury when you
38:32you're being asked questions.
38:35But you're probably trying to connect
38:36with them and plead with them and like
38:38try to get like
38:39When I was testifying, I just would
38:41wanted the people to know I was
38:42innocent. I didn't do this. I don't care
38:45what any cop came in and said to you,
38:47they're lying.
38:49And even some of the lay witnesses, some
38:51of the the regular witnesses were lying
38:52and I knew they were lying. I mean, the
38:54prosecution brought three girls in as
38:57their first witnesses who said I was at
38:59their house on a particular day and they
39:01made certain admissions.
39:03I knew I wasn't at their house, couldn't
39:06have been at their house, and didn't say
39:08what they said.
39:08Mhm.
39:09Tragically, they all lied.
39:11Yeah.
39:12It wasn't until I got out of prison and
39:16we hired a new private investigators
39:17that they went after one of them because
39:19there was two sisters and a single girl
39:22and they went after that she was a young
39:24woman then and she's like, "Yes, we
39:26lied. The cops lied to us."
39:28The cops made us lie and the cops also
39:31brought us into the evidence locker room
39:33right before testimony to look at all
39:35this evidence, don't you want to put
39:36Marty away?
39:38Wow.
39:39There were so many things that went
39:41wrong even before
39:44the jury came back guilty.
39:45Mhm.
39:46Evidence was withheld and and you know,
39:48I tell everybody, you know, what is the
39:50most powerful law firm and the biggest
39:51law firm in any area? Most people are
39:54like, "Uh, I'm not really sure." I go,
39:55"Yes, you do.
39:56It's called the prosecutor's office.
39:57It's called the government."
39:59You know, and they just don't know that.
40:00They don't it doesn't click with them. I
40:02say,
40:03"Think about this." I said, "The
40:04prosecutors have wiretap power, subpoena
40:06power, arrest power."
40:08I said, "There are cases, wrongful
40:10conviction cases, where the prosecutors
40:13kidnap witnesses,
40:15held them in hotel rooms until they
40:17testified and then paid them.
40:19It's crazy.
40:20It's not though.
40:21It should be crazy. It should shock the
40:24conscience of people, but it doesn't.
40:26You know, when when they hear about a
40:27dirty cop or they hear about a cop
40:30bribing witnesses to testify a certain
40:33way or identify a certain way,
40:35it doesn't shock us anymore.
40:36Yeah, we're kind of like, oh well. Yeah,
40:39I think now people think cops are dirty.
40:41People don't really think that about
40:43prosecutors.
40:44They don't, but the problem is is that a
40:46lot of prosecutors and a lot of cops
40:48have a have a long-standing
40:49relationship.
40:50And they they are reluctant to question
40:53them, you know, so if you have a
40:54homicide detective who comes in and
40:56said, "Oh, Brian is this witness. Look
40:58what he saw. Hear what he says."
41:01They just accept it. They don't kind of
41:03question Brian. They don't question
41:06maybe some of Brian's friends. They
41:08don't go out to let's say where Brian
41:10says he saw something to say, "Is that
41:11even possible?" I mean, I was involved
41:14in a case where that just happened.
41:16Yeah, if a cop testifies in your case,
41:17you're screwed. I mean, we do it with
41:19speeding. If the cop shows up and says
41:22you were speeding, that's it. They All
41:24they have to do is show up and say that
41:25you were speeding. That's it.
41:27We've come to a point where
41:29we've given law enforcement a higher
41:32credibility, especially in criminal
41:34proceedings, than the average person,
41:36right? And I think that's a problem. I
41:38think every person in a criminal trial
41:42has should have the same level of
41:43credibility. Unless let's let's let's
41:45say an expert witness. We have
41:47specialized training. You're there to
41:49testify about something very specific
41:51that you've gotten you have a very
41:53unique knowledge about. DNA, something
41:56like that, right? But if
41:58Which even in like John Huffington's
42:00case
42:01it's like uh
42:02the thing of prints
42:03and the drugs
42:04Yeah.
42:04I mean, we're hearing this time and time
42:06again where, you know, science is only
42:09as good as who the examiner is.
42:11Mhm.
42:12You know, there's been serologists in
42:14America who have fake blood tests. They
42:16fake drug tests.
42:17I worked on a Recently I worked on a on
42:20a criminal case where I had a client who
42:23said he was charged with driving under
42:24the influence of cocaine and he's like,
42:26"I've never done cocaine in my life." Lo
42:28and behold, he was telling the truth.
42:30The The testers, when they tested the
42:33prior urine sample, it was a high level
42:35of cocaine
42:36and they never recalibrated the machine,
42:38never cleaned the machine. So, when his
42:40urine was tested, it was
42:42residue from the
42:43residue from But it wasn't him.
42:45Yeah.
42:45And that was really because and you
42:47know, thankfully somebody took an
42:48aggressive point of view
42:50Mhm.
42:50because had it not been, he could be
42:52going to prison.
42:53Yeah.
42:54And I think that's where a lot of
42:55wrongful convictions If you dig deep
42:58into wrongful convictions, there's
43:00there's two, I would say,
43:03overriding factors, right? One is that a
43:05lot of lawyers are not prepared to
43:08defend somebody. And two is all the
43:11problems that go on with the government,
43:12with the prosecutors and the police and
43:14forensics, right?
43:15Because, you know, if you think about
43:17how prosecutors and the government and
43:18police have unlimited resources, they
43:20can call every expert they want.
43:22Drag out the case as long as they want.
43:25Whereas most Most people, I mean, coming
43:28up with 30 grand to fight a case is
43:30probably all they can really come up
43:31with and that's probably going to court
43:34three times.
43:35It is. I mean, you know, if you think
43:36about hiring a high-powered attorney
43:39nowadays for a homicide case,
43:41Mhm.
43:42you are probably looking at anywhere
43:44from 50 to 250,000 dollar retainer.
43:48Then
43:48if it doesn't like drag on.
43:50It's if it doesn't drag on, but if it's
43:52a homicide case,
43:53Mhm.
43:54you know as a defense lawyer what that's
43:56going to entail to investigate it and if
43:58you're going to trial, how much time
44:01that's going to take. And in wrongful
44:02conviction cases,
44:04you're almost doing double the work
44:06because you're starting from the
44:07beginning
44:08Cuz you have to prove they're innocent,
44:10then you have to prove guilt on like a
44:13prosecutor's side, which is almost
44:14crazy.
44:15So, that's one of the issues I think
44:17people fail to realize. So, that was one
44:18of the problems that happened in my
44:19case. My defense lawyer said he was
44:22going to prove something.
44:25Defense lawyers don't have to prove
44:26anything at a criminal trial. The burden
44:29of proof is on the on the prosecutors.
44:30Mhm.
44:31But when you're arguing innocence, you
44:33have to establish that your client is
44:35either innocent, there was some
44:37wrongdoing that went along the way. So,
44:39really it's double the amount of work
44:41because you have to go back to the
44:42original trial and say, "Okay, what went
44:45wrong here?"
44:46Mhm.
44:46Okay, let's address the problems of the
44:48trial. Then we have to take all those
44:51post-conviction years and say what new
44:53witnesses have come forward, uh what new
44:56science, forensics have changed. And
44:58that happened in my case. I was
45:00convicted June 20th, 1990.
45:04I remember October 5th of 1990, I was
45:06sentenced to 50 years to life.
45:08And, you know, it's two days I'll never
45:10forget because I remember the sentencing
45:13wasn't as horrible as the finding of
45:16guilt because my lawyer was like,
45:19"Listen, Marty, this is what's going to
45:20happen. You know, you're you're going to
45:21go into court. Uh the judge is going to
45:23sentence you to 50 to life."
45:25You know, you think at 19, you're
45:27thinking 50 to life, like, "What the
45:28[ __ ] is going on? Like, is this real?"
45:31Like, you know, trying to process that
45:33as here I am innocent, here I am like I
45:35was living this great life, like,
45:37anything I wanted, boats, cars, girls,
45:39whatever I wanted, like, I had in life.
45:42And here I am going to prison.
45:44Like, young white kid, 135, 140 lbs,
45:48like, "How am I going to survive this?"
45:50Mhm.
45:50And literally it's walking into hell.
45:54There's no, you know, I I remember
45:56somebody asked me one time, they said,
45:57"Are there any good prisons?"
45:59And I kind of said turned I said, "Do
46:00you hear your question?
46:02Having the word good and prison in the
46:05same sentence just doesn't make much
46:07sense." I go, "I don't think there's any
46:09such I don't think there's any prison
46:10that's good." I said, "There may be
46:13prisons that are better than other
46:14prisons, but there I don't think such is
46:16a good prison."
46:17Yeah.
46:17You know, at least not in America. You
46:19know, if you if you go beyond America,
46:21you go outside our country,
46:23you go to Netherlands, there are prisons
46:26over there that are not like prisons,
46:28you know, where people are treated like
46:31humanely. They have keys to their doors,
46:34there's windows,
46:35and that's why the crime rate is less
46:37elsewhere.
46:38But I remember June 28th being found
46:40guilty,
46:41October 5th being sentenced to 50 years
46:43to life, and then it was a few few weeks
46:46later I was brought up to Downstate
46:48Correctional Facility, which is a
46:50processing center in Fishkill, New York,
46:52and I was assigned 90T3844.
46:56And the T is not for Tankleff.
46:58Uh the T is because they normally would
47:00start with the letter A, but after
47:0210,000 they go to T in Downstate. So
47:05that year
47:07It's just
47:08Because there are different letters are
47:10designated for different jails.
47:12Okay.
47:12I think Ulster was R, I think Attica was
47:15D. So Downstate was A and T in 1990. So
47:2090T3844,
47:22I was the 13,844th
47:24prisoner.
47:25And I remember the guards consistently
47:28said, "You're not a name, you're a
47:29number."
47:31That was pretty much drilled into us no
47:32matter where we went.
47:35That you're 90T3844.
47:38And that's a hard thing to process when
47:40you've grown up kind of a normal life,
47:43that now all of a sudden you are a
47:44number,
47:45and you're in a prison full of
47:48convicted murderers, rapists, robbers,
47:51and those were just the guards. Those
47:53weren't the prisoners.
47:54Mhm.
47:55Because in some of the prisons the
47:56prisoners are less harmful than the
47:59guards.
48:00Yeah.
48:00The violence that exudes in some prisons
48:02is scary as [ __ ] But I also know that
48:05there's a lot of humanity in prison,
48:06which people are shocked about. I was in
48:09Clinton Correctional Facility, and there
48:10was a female officer who was scared of
48:13one particular prisoner.
48:14And she approached a group of us, and
48:16she said, "Listen, Marci, cuz if
48:17anything ever happens, please protect
48:19me." And we looked at her, we was like,
48:20"Linda, what are you talking about?" She
48:22was like She was like, "Yeah, the guards
48:23won't protect me." She goes, "You guys
48:24will."
48:25Wow.
48:26And it was one of those defining moments
48:28when we understood that she saw the
48:31humanity in us.
48:32Mhm.
48:33You know, there was one officer in
48:35prison. His name is John. I won't say
48:37his last name.
48:38Mhm.
48:39But he was the best officer ever in
48:41prison. He was an officer who used to
48:42say, "I come in for 8 hours a day. If
48:45something during that 8 hours that that
48:47can make your life better,
48:49I'll do it." And I'll tell you, we had
48:51the most respect for him. He was human.
48:55He was caring. He was kind. He was
48:56compassionate. He suffered from some of
49:00his own evils that he was able to share
49:03with some of us. But I think that's what
49:04made him such a unique person.
49:07And then I can go to the extreme.
49:09Okay, and I'll say this guy's name,
49:11Randy McCuller, who was a guard at
49:13Comstock, who loved to tell the old
49:16guards what I was in jail for and get
49:18other guards to try to harass me.
49:20Oh, wow.
49:21And try to get me hurt. And
49:24By other guards?
49:25By other guards, by other inmates.
49:27Thankfully, it didn't work.
49:29Mhm.
49:29Thankfully, it didn't work because he
49:31was one of those
49:33vicious, malicious
49:35guards who just didn't come to do their
49:37job. You know, he was one of those guys
49:39that would come to do their job and stir
49:41[ __ ] up.
49:42Mhm.
49:43I mean, what other experience did you
49:45have from being like this sheltered kid
49:47to like going into prison? Like what
49:49What were like some things you learned
49:50very quickly? Like the do's and don'ts
49:52of like going there.
49:53There's really nothing that can prepare
49:55you.
49:56Mhm.
49:57You know, my first exposure was going
49:59into the Suffolk County Jail and I made
50:01some associates and I stayed in touch
50:03with a few of them because they were
50:05going to state prison. So, I kind of had
50:07a little bit of heads up, but you know,
50:10living in
50:11a 6 by 9
50:13cage
50:14in Suffolk County Jail where you've got
50:17a bed, a toilet, a sink and there's
50:19bars, there's no privacy. You you learn
50:22that privacy is gone.
50:25If you're not very strong-willed and
50:27strong-minded
50:29prison will destroy you.
50:31If you think about every time you go on
50:32a visit, when you come off the visit,
50:34you have to get strip naked
50:36bend over, you have to spread your butt
50:38cheeks. The officers can be very abusive
50:41during that process as well.
50:43Mhm.
50:43Uh very demoralizing. But, you know, you
50:46don't want to go on a you know, it's do
50:47you go on a visit and see your family
50:49and friends or not?
50:51Yeah.
50:51You know, you're you're forced with
50:53these decisions and it's kind of like
50:55it's hell. No matter which way you look
50:57at it, there's a hell to this. I mean,
50:59you're living in a cage, you're you
51:01know, you're being
51:02held captive. I used to tell people I
51:04was kidnapped.
51:05I was kidnapped by the state of New York
51:07and thrown away and they prayed I would
51:09just disappear and die.
51:11Wow. What was your family going through
51:13like what was your was your family
51:14telling you like oh we're going to get
51:16you out of here, we're going to get a
51:17different attorney?
51:18Everybody believed that. Everybody I
51:20mean, you know, my my lawyers said
51:21listen, you know, I'm going to step
51:22away. I'll help you get a new lawyer
51:24because most lawyers who do trials don't
51:27ever do the appeals. So, we had one of
51:30the best appeal lawyers come in who
51:32thought Marty, you know, this is great.
51:34We've got some great legal issues, we've
51:35got great factual issues.
51:37But, also realize this that from the
51:38moment I was found guilty more witnesses
51:41were coming forward that were providing
51:43my lawyers with favorable and
51:44exculpatory information.
51:46Mhm.
51:47That continued for years.
51:49Favorable to you.
51:50To me.
51:50Yeah.
51:50That like literally, you know, within
51:53days of me being found guilty, we had
51:57witnesses come forward and saying, "Oh,
51:58the police were looking at other
51:59suspects." There was jury misconduct.
52:02And literally before I was sentenced,
52:04because most people say, "Wait a minute,
52:05June 28th, October 5th, that's a really
52:08long window." That's because we had
52:09post-conviction hearings where we had
52:11witnesses testifying.
52:13And we were trying to say, "Listen, look
52:14at all this new stuff that came out."
52:15Didn't matter.
52:17Um so, here I was in prison. I go from
52:21downstate to Auburn Correctional
52:23Facility. Auburn is really in the dead
52:26center of a town. Uh the cell blocks are
52:30so tall that they overlook this 40-ft
52:33wall that you can actually look into the
52:34town.
52:35And I remember meeting somebody there by
52:38the name of Bill
52:39who said, "The easiest people to convict
52:42are the innocent and they're the hardest
52:43to exonerate."
52:45And he said, "Marty, you're going to
52:46have to figure out a way to help
52:47yourself and fight for yourself to get
52:48out."
52:49And I'll never forget that because it
52:51was at that moment I was like, "Okay,
52:52I'm going to spend as much time in the
52:53law library researching the law, helping
52:56my lawyers out." And that's what I did.
52:58In 1993
53:01was when my first appeal was argued.
53:03Mhm.
53:04And
53:05Now, you're you're thinking you're
53:06getting out.
53:06I'm thinking the system has to work. I'm
53:08thinking like, "Okay, you know what? You
53:10you can't incarcerate an innocent
53:12person. Like, the system can't function
53:14this way."
53:15And I'm like, "Okay, you know what? The
53:16law's on my side, the facts are on my
53:18side. Like, this is going to work."
53:20And I remember the lawyer saying, you
53:21know, that they filed the briefs, they
53:23were strong briefs, they go to court,
53:24they argue the case. It's four judges.
53:28And the reason why I think four judges
53:30is because my Uncle Mike, who's an
53:31attorney in California, asked my
53:33appellate lawyer Mark, he said, "What
53:35happens if it goes two-two?" Mark goes,
53:38"Never happens in criminal cases, not in
53:40the second department." Well, what do
53:41you think happened in my case?
53:42One, two, two.
53:43One, two, two, right? So, unbeknownst to
53:46us, a fifth judge was brought on
53:48and the fifth judge had a connection to
53:52the Suffolk County DA's office.
53:54Mhm.
53:55We never knew he was brought on. All of
53:56a sudden, the decision comes out. It was
53:58three, two.
53:59Two judges vote to dismiss the
54:01indictments against me and set me free.
54:03Three voted to keep me in prison.
54:05Mhm.
54:06It was at that moment I kind of went,
54:08like, what the [ __ ] Like
54:10And this is 3 years Let me ask you, how
54:12much law did you learn in 3 years?
54:14A lot. I mean, I I spent as much time in
54:16the law library as possible. I
54:17understood appellate issues. I
54:19understood how in the first level in New
54:22York, you know, you can argue facts and
54:24law.
54:26But when you go to the If you lose in
54:27the appellate division and you have to
54:29go to the court of appeals, it's
54:30primarily only law.
54:33You think at that point you're just as
54:34knowledgeable as most attorneys?
54:36No.
54:37Okay.
54:37I I don't think
54:39you know, Mark Pomerantz was
54:41want to know like how much law education
54:44you could get in prison in 3 years.
54:45A lot.
54:46Okay.
54:46A lot. I mean,
54:48I ended up working in the law library,
54:50so I ended up doing as much reading and
54:52research as I could. Computers weren't
54:55available in prisons back then. So, we
54:57learned the old-fashioned way of picking
54:59up a book and Shepardizing a book.
55:01A book.
55:02stressing you.
55:02Yeah.
55:03Oh, listen, don't don't don't forget
55:05when I got out and I went to a lawyer's
55:06office, I said, "Where's the law
55:07library?"
55:08Guy pointed a computer. I go, "I don't
55:10know how to use that." They go, "Guy,
55:12you'll figure it out." And it was one of
55:14those moments I was like, "Oh, [ __ ]
55:15Like, what do I Like, I was used to
55:17walking into Like, when I was going to
55:19law school having a physical library, I
55:20was like, "Okay, I'm in my like natural
55:22realm that I understand this."
55:24They go, "Oh, another thing."
55:26I'm trying to just like wrap my head
55:27around this. So,
55:28You can't. Nobody can. I mean,
55:31you can't fathom that here I am 19, 20
55:34in prison, 50 years to life in Auburn
55:39hanging out with bikers who were like
55:416'6", long hair, tattoos, like
55:44true badasses in the prison system,
55:46right?
55:47And
55:47going to ask like, who's your friend in
55:49prison? Who's your friends in prison?
55:51I had a very diverse friends, and I mean
55:53like the bikers Sunny and Pirate and Rax
55:56and like there were a lot of these guys.
55:59And the weirdest thing is I remember
56:00like a group of them saying, "You know,
56:01Morty, like we actually wish you were
56:03guilty." I'm like, "What?" They're like,
56:05"We would feel better of you hanging out
56:07with us if you were guilty. Like we know
56:08you're not and you don't belong here."
56:10And it was like it was one of those
56:11moments in prison where you
56:12like corrupting you?
56:14It wasn't corrupt It was almost though
56:16like even the prisoners
56:18felt bad for you.
56:19felt bad for me. And even the prisoners
56:20could see I was innocent didn't belong
56:22there.
56:23And I'm thinking to myself like these
56:24were stone-cold criminals and they were
56:27bikers.
56:28They knew things. Like they knew how the
56:30system worked. They just knew it, right?
56:33But I remember in '93 getting that phone
56:35call and I remember the lawyer saying
56:37like, "Well, we got good news and bad
56:38news."
56:40I'm thinking like, "Oh, [ __ ] Like good
56:42news and bad news?" Like
56:44Well, like well, the good news is two
56:45judges voted dismi- dismiss the
56:47indictment against you and set you free.
56:49And I'm kind of like
56:49Which doesn't mean anything.
56:50Like so, what's the bad news? Like well,
56:52three voted against you to keep you in
56:54prison. I'm kind of like, "What?" Like
56:56it just almost didn't process cuz I'm
56:57like, "Wait a minute, we went four
56:58judges. How'd that happen?"
57:00If you want to say there's a good sign
57:02to this, okay, is that the dissenting
57:05opinion was so powerful, it left a
57:08resonating impact with some people in
57:10the legal system, the judiciary.
57:12And in New York, it's one of those weird
57:14things that you have to ask permission
57:16to appeal to the next higher court.
57:19Mhm.
57:19Because I had two judges that voted in
57:21my favor, I could ask one of them to
57:24grant me permission. So, we did. We
57:26asked them permission. They went up to
57:28the next higher court. And the next
57:30higher court actually agreed to hear my
57:32case.
57:33They heard my case. They ruled, you
57:35know, after they ruled argument, the
57:37lawyers thought, "Oh, we went great."
57:381994, but I remember getting a phone
57:40call, "Marty, we got some bad news."
57:42What? They all ruled against you, 7-0.
57:45And every time their decisions came
57:48down, it's like it's almost like a boxer
57:50getting knocked down.
57:51Mhm.
57:52And you have to figure out a way to get
57:53back up. And I think it was like Gus
57:55D'Amato
57:56Mhm.
57:56had this phrase about it's not how many
57:58times you get knocked down, it's how
57:59many times you get back up to fight.
58:01Mhm.
58:02I got up a lot of times, you know? I
58:04mean, at one point during my case, I
58:06think the prosecutor said, "Well, 17
58:09courts ruled against Marty."
58:11Well, that just means that I got up each
58:12and every time to come back fighting
58:14harder and harder.
58:15Mhm.
58:15You know, I don't want to bore your
58:16listeners with the criminal
58:18After the court of appeals decision, I
58:19went to the federal court.
58:21Mhm.
58:21Uh the first level, the federal court
58:23ruled against me.
58:25Then we went to the second circuit court
58:27of appeals. And the second circuit court
58:29of appeals, and this is what's
58:31important. Remember the name Guido
58:33Calabresi. Guido Calabresi is a judge,
58:36still sitting judge,
58:38Mhm.
58:38on the court of appeals.
58:40Guido Calabresi wrote the opinion in my
58:42case,
58:44where he said my Miranda rights were
58:46violated but under state law, and since
58:48they were federal court, they couldn't
58:49do anything.
58:50But he said my Batson issue,
58:53Batson issue had to do with a case
58:55called Batson versus Kentucky, and had
58:57to do with prosecutors excluding jurors
59:01based on race, religion, sex, creed. At
59:04the time of trial, my lawyer was very
59:07forward-thinking and said, "The
59:09prosecutor's getting rid of every
59:10African-American juror."
59:12So, we argued that exact issue in state
59:15court. All the state courts ruled
59:16against me. The district court ruled
59:17against me. The second circuit court of
59:19appeals said, "No, there's something
59:20here."
59:21So, we have to remand it down for
59:23hearing. So, I'm thinking to myself,
59:25"Okay, you know what? Here's a Here's a
59:27bright light. Like, here's something.
59:28Like, finally somebody's saying
59:30something.
59:30Mhm.
59:31But, it was also a bright light because
59:32finally a court said, "Yeah, you know,
59:34Mr. Tagliabue, your rights were
59:36violated." So, we took their decision
59:39and went back to the New York State
59:41Court of Appeals, and the Appellate
59:42Division said, "Listen, you both got it
59:44wrong. The Second Circuit just showed us
59:46that." They denied me.
59:48Now, when the case got remanded on this
59:51Batson issue to assess the jury issue,
59:55it ended up going back into Suffolk
59:56County.
59:58You would think that, you know, after
1:00:00all this, that maybe I'd have a fair
1:00:02shot.
1:00:03No way. We ended up getting a judge
1:00:06Mhm.
1:00:07whose daughter
1:00:08worked in the DA's office in the same
1:00:10division that was fighting to keep me in
1:00:13prison. The daughter's boss was the one
1:00:16prosecutor was going to have to testify
1:00:18at the hearing. Nobody disclosed that at
1:00:21the hearing. We didn't know any of it.
1:00:23Wow.
1:00:23And the hearing that the judge wouldn't
1:00:26allow certain witnesses to testify, and
1:00:28obviously they ruled against me. About 6
1:00:30months later, we uncovered
1:00:33What?
1:00:33the judge, the daughter, and this whole
1:00:35relationship, and we said, like,
1:00:37we want this case reopened up. We want a
1:00:39new hearing. Nope, denied.
1:00:41At that point, I had argued my case,
1:00:45you know, back down all the way up to
1:00:47the federal courts. I've been up to the
1:00:48Supreme Court. And finally, the lawyers
1:00:51that were representing me, and one of
1:00:53them was Steve Braga,
1:00:54Mhm.
1:00:55who said, "What's never been done here,
1:00:57right?" And we all said, "Well, what's
1:00:58never been really done was an
1:01:00investigation." Right? Because McCready
1:01:03and his crew focused on me, developed
1:01:06institutional blinders, or what we
1:01:08thought back then,
1:01:09and just left it at that. Now, I have to
1:01:12backtrack to 1993 cuz it's important.
1:01:15In 1993, a woman with the name of
1:01:17Carleen Kovacs came forward to us
1:01:21and gave us a statement, which we up
1:01:22turning over to the DA's office.
1:01:24She said, "I was at a party where Joseph
1:01:27Creeden, if you remember, Joseph Creeden
1:01:29was one of Todd Shawcross' henchmen,
1:01:30Mhm.
1:01:31and Joseph Creeden confessed that he was
1:01:33the murderer of Marty's parents." This
1:01:36is 1993.
1:01:37Mhm.
1:01:38We gave that information to the DA's
1:01:40office in 1993.
1:01:41And they did nothing.
1:01:49This show is not affiliated with any
1:01:50specific 12-step program. If you or a
1:01:52loved one is struggling with an
1:01:54addiction, please find a local 12-step
1:01:56meeting.
1:01:57If you believe you may need detox or
1:01:59drug treatment of any kind, please call
1:02:02888-699-9395
1:02:06to speak to a specialist. This show is
1:02:09sponsored by United Recovery Project, a
1:02:11state-of-the-art drug and alcohol rehab
1:02:13facility. You can visit our website at
1:02:15unitedrecoveryproject.com.

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