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YouTube transcript (5_FS6yumSso) — Transcript

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11:18good morning can someone confirm that my
11:20microphone is
11:22working I can hear you Joe great thanks
11:26yes I can hear you
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31:12good morning hey Tracy can you hear
31:17me good morning I can hear you all
31:21righty
31:25okay on one second
31:37[Music]
31:50just bear with me for one second
32:08things are happening really quickly here
32:09folks that I'm getting email messages on
32:11and I apologize for
32:13that
32:15um oops but
32:18uh some of them will affect us a little
32:20bit and some of them might not
32:39okay all right I apologize for that um
32:43we'll go on the record um with
32:45proceeding 23
32:48a-01
32:5397t
32:55okay uh 17 uh in the matter of the
32:58application of lumen doing business as
33:01centry link QC for 2023 basic emergency
33:06service provider Improvement plan
33:08administrative law judge Robert Garvey
33:10today is the 24th of June 2024 at
33:13approximately 9:02
33:16am um this proceeding comes down for a
33:19evidentiary hearing um quick things I
33:23well let's do entry of Appearances first
33:26uh we'll start with go in this order
33:28Century length UCA
33:30CCTA Lita CCA best 911 and then
33:36staff morning your honor Tom Snider from
33:39CAC rock on behalf of Sentry Link I'll
33:42explain who else is in the office here
33:44with me we have uh uh Tim kman who's a
33:47company uh representative um next to him
33:51is Ryan Rael who's a summer associate at
33:54CAC Rock and then finally is our witness
33:56James Carlson
33:58um judge and and and to the parties this
34:01is a this is a this is a room I've used
34:03many times with zoom unfortunately I
34:06we've had a new camera placed in here
34:08and I have never worked with this camera
34:10before as you can see it is doing some
34:12strange things um I don't think it's
34:14going to interfere with the testimony
34:17today it during a break I might ask our
34:19it people to come in here and just kill
34:22it uh we'll use a normal camera so
34:24anyway I apologize for this zooming in
34:26and zooming out well and don't worry I
34:29gu say when it gets to my turn to talk
34:30I'll tell you a few things that I have
34:32going on here so certain certainly you
34:35you're you're absolved of all camera
34:38incidents uh as I get over mine but good
34:40morning and good morning to everyone
34:43there good morning it's Michelle Singer
34:45Nelson appearing on behalf of the
34:47utility consumer advocate office good
34:51morning good
34:53morning good morning this is Abby
34:56briggerman of the law firm of Holland
34:57and I'm appearing on behalf of the
34:59Colorado cable telecommunications
35:01Association or
35:02CCTA good morning good
35:06morning and good morning your honor
35:08Tracy Alem from Ireland Stapleton and
35:10I'm appearing on behalf of larer
35:13emergency telephone Authority and its
35:15corporate representative Kimberly cult
35:18uh is participating and signed in and
35:21then I also represent the Colorado
35:24Council of authorities Inc um and it is
35:28represented through the representative
35:30Andrew Damron who will join us this
35:32afternoon all right good
35:36morning Joseph bener on behalf of best
35:40911 I represent the boulder Regional
35:42Emergency Telephone Service Authority uh
35:45Bart Miller is also online he represents
35:49Douglas County and El Paso teller
35:51emergeny telephone
35:53associations good morning gentlemen
35:58good morning your honor I'm Bart Miller
36:00with Collins Cole and I'm representing
36:02the parties Mr Ben Kirk just indicated
36:05okay good
36:09morning it's my turn good morning your
36:11honor assistant Attorneys General Justin
36:14Cox and Josh Horman with the Attorney
36:17General's office on behalf of trial
36:18staff for the Public Utilities
36:20Commission good good morning Mr coxon
36:22you're lucky we last you knew there was
36:23no one left I I was going to give
36:25everyone an A+ for remembering where
36:27they were in the lineup that I gave so
36:29good job um real quickly I'll tell you
36:32uh we have three hearings that are going
36:33on today with a commission and we have
36:36one Legal Assistant who is incredibly
36:39good and Incredibly kind and incredibly
36:41wonderful and I incredibly don't want
36:43her to to hate me forever so what we are
36:46going to do unfortunately is we're going
36:48to take a break for lunch at 11:00 am.
36:50we'll probably take one for an hour and
36:52a half I apologize for that but there's
36:54some public hearings that are going to
36:55be starting at that time uh I want to
36:57make sure that she's able to do that and
36:59um she's going to be popping back and
37:02forth if something happens on that so
37:04figure we're going to take it about 11:
37:06um also uh if there's one thing that I
37:09want less uh than having my Legal
37:12Assistant hate me I don't want my court
37:14reporter to hate me so uh I'm going to
37:16check with her at about 10 or 10:15 and
37:18see if we need to take a little break I
37:20normally take a break about an hour to
37:22an hour and a half into to a hearing so
37:24I'm going to check with her so um who's
37:27ever doing questioning at that time
37:29realize I might stop and break and
37:31around that
37:33time um what else I have I also got a
37:35message that my court reporter might be
37:37having um electrical issues or excuse me
37:40Wi-Fi issues that might happen in her
37:42neighborhood while she's doing this
37:43today that was one of the things that
37:44popped up when I was uh getting ready
37:47there so hopefully nothing will happen
37:48there but if it does uh we might have a
37:50Interruption that way so I just wanted
37:51to tell you that um now I'm going to do
37:55my housekeeping stuff uh we are
37:57conducting this hearing utilizing
37:59electronic pre-filed exhibits a
38:01spreadsheet has been prepared to
38:02navigate documents pre-filed in the
38:04commission's administrative record the
38:06spreadsheet indicates the latest
38:08versions filed at this point in time the
38:10spreadsheet has been marked as hearing
38:12exhibit 900 it reflects the date of the
38:14latest filed version as it appears in
38:17the commission's administrative record a
38:19title reference for hearing exhibits
38:20that will be utilized during the hearing
38:22and the titles of the hearing exhibit as
38:24reflected in the commission's records
38:26because attachments to testimony are
38:27part of the hearing exhibits exhibit
38:29references to attachments to the
38:31testimony will include reference to the
38:32hearing exhibit I would like to ask
38:35parties referring to an attachment to a
38:36pre-filed exhibit to reference both the
38:38exhibit number and the attachment so for
38:40instance here in exhibit 100 attachment
38:42whatever that attachment is so Legal
38:45Assistant can find it real quickly um
38:48any item listed in the spreadsheet is
38:50admitted into evidence will be admitted
38:52by administrative notice upon the
38:53existing filing referenced in the
38:55commission's file as such Those portions
38:58of the administrative record would
38:59become part of the evidentiary record
39:01fact being administratively noticed is
39:02that the electronic pre-file copy of
39:04administrative record is the content of
39:05the otherwise admissible exhibit being
39:07admitted so um if you don't know these
39:11sering before it's a common principle we
39:12normally do it's just the uh spreadsheet
39:14that you got uh emailed to you on Friday
39:17and what the legal assistant uses to
39:18reference through but it does become
39:20part of the record on that it's exhibit
39:22900 um and so if there's no objection
39:25I'm going toit into the record exhibit
39:26900
39:28don't hear any exemptions
39:31um I will then ask the the last thing I
39:34got because I want to get us going um do
39:37we have any stipulations to the
39:38admission of it
39:42exhibits I'm guessing we
39:46don't are we Frozen up I'm frozen up
39:52oh I lose anybody no no stipulations
39:57judge we did not reach any stipulations
39:59although we didn't reach any
40:00disagreements as well I hopefully we can
40:02get make this moveth okay all right
40:05that's all I got uh there any uh
40:06preliminary matters for any of the
40:09parties uh did I just one preliminary
40:12matter I was trying this morning to
40:14upload an additional potential exhibit
40:16to box.com and uh I kept getting an
40:18error I didn't I don't know if it's my
40:21on my end or if it's it's if box.com
40:24site is been closed I was wondering if I
40:27could email it to your assistant and
40:29perhaps um he or she could upload it to
40:33our box.com account for
40:40us let's see M Federico do you want to
40:43do it that way or how would you like
40:44that D handle that um can you remind me
40:47what what party it is oh this is Lumen
40:51Lum problem yeah it's definitely not
40:55down I've been in it this morning and um
40:57I've gotten gotten alerts from other
40:59folks adding things um what I see
41:03several exhibits in your box what number
41:05is it that you're looking for it would
41:06be
41:08110 ah no that one's not there
41:13um sure we can do it that way do you
41:17have the capability to to do it for us
41:19you think uh yes okay I appreciate that
41:23it'll be um like the sooner you can do
41:26it the better it's it'll be hard for me
41:28to upload it while you're all doing
41:30testimony and asking for other exhibits
41:32so might be do it the better are you
41:36gonna need it before lunch we're taking
41:38remember we're taking lunch at
41:3911: uh yes uh if yes I believe so so I'm
41:44setting it right
41:48now all right well you do that is there
41:50any other periment matters you have
41:58anything else not for us
42:02okay your honor staff has one
42:04preliminary matter um we would just
42:07request U for our staff witness Jennifer
42:10Kirkland uh to be able to conduct a very
42:13brief at most five to 10 minutes
42:15hopefully less uh direct of her this is
42:18to respond to centur Links revised
42:21supplemental direct testimony and
42:23attachments that were filed after answer
42:26testimony deadline
42:31C link if you have any objection to that
42:33no okay um since centr link has no
42:36objection I'll allow thank you excuse
42:41me okay yes yes I like the same um
42:46opportunity with respect to witness
42:48Kimberly cult uh to address very narrow
42:52questions related to um the supplemental
42:54direct testimony that was filed after
42:56her or testimony was file all right when
42:59you call her for a witness then uh you
43:01get an extra I don't know five or I
43:03don't want another I don't want two
43:04hours worth of direct testimony please
43:06oh no
43:08no will not go over big um I do have a
43:12few other preliminary matters your honor
43:14sure um we were advised on on Tuesday of
43:19a a switch of Sentry links witness uh he
43:22will not be Steve Delo he will be Jim
43:24Carlson and I don't know if the uh your
43:28honor has had the opportunity to be
43:31notified of that um but we don't know
43:34the basis or the reasons so we take no
43:36position we can't State whether there's
43:38good cause
43:40for it's not it's not unusual um in our
43:44proceedings to have some adopt the
43:45testimony of of someone so um I didn't
43:48see it I don't if you I
43:51mean if he's not able to answer anything
43:53on on cross-examination it's certainly
43:55going to taint the ability his testimony
43:58so okay we'll see if you have no
44:00objection I mean i' probably allow it
44:02anyway but okay and then with respect to
44:06the exhibits of Century Link um there is
44:08some confusion on my part about what was
44:11publicly filed and what is
44:13confidential and so my understanding and
44:16I just wanted to verify that for the
44:18record that exhibit 100 which is the
44:21direct testimony of Steve
44:23Doo that was filed publicly it is not
44:27confidential and
44:29then uh exhibit 100 attachment
44:35sd1 is the second amended Improvement
44:38application that was also filed publicly
44:42um in February of 2024 so that is not
44:46confidential and then the rest of
44:48exhibit 100 would be and then with
44:51respect to exhibit 101 that's the
44:53supplemental direct testimony that was
44:56filed
44:57publicly and so that is not
45:00confidential and my understanding is
45:02that exhibit 101 attachment
45:06sd4 was also filed publicly and is not
45:09confidential so for purposes of
45:11Expediting examination I just wanted to
45:14make sure that there was uh agreement on
45:16that well all files are filed publicly
45:19and then if there's confidential
45:20information there's also confidential
45:22filing on it I assume that that's the
45:24case in each one of these I have not
45:25examined them uh to make sure but when
45:28uh an exhibit's being used I mean and
45:30that's one thing I I do want to mention
45:31to everyone too don't forget um we do
45:33have confidential stuff I know filed in
45:35this proceeding before you ask any
45:37questions about any um confidential
45:40information please tell me ahead of time
45:42so we can take that uh proceeding off
45:45line those questions but
45:49um is there uh anything anything that
45:53from centry length that you heard
45:54incorrectly this Miss old Meer said no
45:57judge I I believe we agree with uh Miss
46:00old me's um characterization just with
46:03the when you talk about the testimony
46:06being filed publicly it's just the
46:08testimony it's not the attachments and I
46:10assume that's what she what she was
46:11referring to um so yes it's just a
46:14testimony both public uh sd1 to um to to
46:19exhibit 10100 also is public but the
46:23attachments to that document uh sd1 D1
46:27sd1 D2 those are still confidential and
46:29I think that's I think that's what m was
46:32referring to so yeah I think we're all
46:34on the same page okay good enough all
46:37right um anybody have anything else
46:39before Oh man one
46:42more I'm trying to expedite the
46:44presentation of evidence but the FCC
46:47audit um that is a confidential
46:50attachment in this case um it's
46:54confident exhibit 100
46:58attachment
47:00sd1
47:02[Music]
47:04d8c um that was actually filed publicly
47:08in a different
47:10proceeding um it was filed publicly in
47:1323m
47:150236 t on June 3rd 2024 at Pages 24
47:20through 28 the content is the same it's
47:24just that the formatting is different so
47:26it's actually legible and and one can
47:29read it um and so we would ask that uh
47:32your honor take administrative or
47:34judicial notice of of that uh filing in
47:3923m 0236 t Pages 2 24 through 28 and we
47:45did put that in our folder as exhibit
47:48601 do you plan on to uh planning to
47:51admit that or present that because it
47:55was filed publicly it just expedites we
47:57can put it up on the screen and use
47:59those pages um in discussion I don't
48:02know if there was an intentional waiver
48:04of confidentiality or not but I've got
48:06one version of the same document
48:08designated confidential that's hard to
48:10read and then one that was filed
48:12publicly that you can actually read well
48:16I I say are you if you plan on using
48:18that and want to admit that into an
48:20exhibit then I'll we'll do it that way
48:22if you don't then I'll take I don't I'm
48:24not going to take administrative notice
48:25of it and then also admit it as exhibit
48:27uh and then have it as a third exhibit
48:29too when centry link tries to get their
48:31exhibits in so uhy tell me how you want
48:34to handle it okay get there I only did
48:37that because I thought rule 1501
48:40subsection C required me to do it
48:42actually label it as an exhibit um so if
48:46your honor is willing to take judicial
48:48notice of it without it being um
48:51admitted I I mean if if you want to move
48:55for for administrative notes technically
48:57it's administrative notice here but uh
48:59if you want to move for administrative
49:00notice of that and you give it to the
49:01other parties uh and they know what's
49:03going on with it and I can see it uh I
49:05can do that but it's kind of hard for me
49:07to look to Grant administrative notice
49:10if you plan on using it as an exhibit in
49:12the hearing you can try and admit it
49:14that way um like I say my my my only
49:18worry is I don't want it admited three
49:20different ways um for the same document
49:23I just clutter up my my record if I do
49:25that so how you want to get it in and do
49:28it that way okay and as long as it gets
49:31in it gets in yeah and the same will
49:33hold true then I'll just email all of
49:34these to opposing Council now but it's
49:36things that the parties have referred to
49:39special investigation reports filed in
49:4123m 0145 T and 24
49:48m20t and so I'll email those which I
49:50marked as exhibits if there's no
49:52objection by opposing Council we'll
49:54we'll proceed at that but I can go ahead
49:56and proceed with my direct okay all
50:00right anything
50:04else not on behalf of and Away Your H
50:09okay not seeing anyone else with
50:11anything that being the case let's get
50:13started and Sentry Link may call the
50:15first
50:19witness thank you uh your honor um for
50:22our first witness we would call James
50:24Carlson Mr Carlson you raise your right
50:26hand for me you swear affirm tell the
50:29whole truth nothing but the truth on
50:30penalty of perjury I do all right sir is
50:34anyone there with you
50:37right uh is there anyone here with me
50:39yeah yeah the individuals mentioned
50:41already okay all right you don't have
50:43any notes or anything there to help you
50:44do you have any any documentation with
50:47you uh there's my my testimony Is Here
50:50Yeah
50:51and but not not uh uh not in front of me
50:55okay fantastic okay um and we'll go
50:59ahead with through direct oh thank you
51:02uh Mr Carlson Could you um identify your
51:06name again for the record and tell us uh
51:08by whom you're employed and what you do
51:11uh yes my name is uh James Carlson I
51:13also go by Jim my role as a senior
51:16director at um Cent or Lumen is to uh
51:22care for the customer experience of our
51:25Public Safety customers across the
51:26country so my uh my direct team that uh
51:31I am in charge of is responsible for the
51:35uh sales conversations that we have with
51:37customers I also work in a matrix
51:39management form with other individuals
51:42who are dedicated to Public Safety
51:44across the country Steve do is one of
51:47those individuals who leads our
51:48engineering team I work with Steve uh
51:51literally every day on topics of
51:53pertinent Public Safety I also work work
51:56with our customer care team our network
51:58operations center our um marketing
52:02business development um I've end in
52:04responsibility for the customer
52:07experience and uh by how long have you
52:09been employed by the company uh I've
52:11been employed with the company for 35
52:14years and uh how many of those years
52:17have focused on the public safety Market
52:19segment um nine years
52:21now um have you uh testified in
52:25commission proceedings before I have uh
52:28I have back at um the passage of the
52:31Telecommunications Act in
52:331996 uh I was a part of the external
52:36Affairs group at Sprint at the time uh a
52:39permutation of our company and involved
52:41in regulatory hearings across the
52:43country as Sprint sought to uh receive
52:46celect status and then really advocating
52:49uh competition across the
52:52country um can you give us some examples
52:55of some states that you testified in
52:57Missouri Minnesota Colorado California
53:01Massachusetts
53:02Arizona um
53:07um yeah so I think there's nine or 10
53:11states I testified
53:13before and uh finally could you uh give
53:15us your educational
53:17background uh my uh bachelor's degree is
53:20in computer science and my master's
53:22degree is in uh
53:25management um
53:28Mr Carlson let me refer you to what has
53:30been marked in this proceeding as
53:34exhibit 100 which is the direct
53:37testimony of Steve delude are you
53:39familiar with that document I am okay
53:41did you have um a role in participating
53:45in the um uh drafting of that testimony
53:50you know in my role at um in my role at
53:53Lum and given I'm responsible for the
53:56customer experience and and uh I I was
53:59aware that the testimony was being
54:01developed but I wasn't I didn't directly
54:03write
54:04it um have you um reviewed the testimony
54:09yes I have okay and uh again who is Mr
54:12Delo uh Steve Delo is a manager of sales
54:16engineering for Public Safety at Lumen
54:18so he leads a team of individuals to
54:21design Public Safety Solutions for our
54:24customers uh and why is Mr Delo not able
54:27to participate today he wasn't available
54:29this
54:30week um do you having read this um
54:36testimony Mark is exhibit 100 do you
54:38adopt this testimony as your own I
54:41do at this time honor we would move to
54:43admit the test direct testimony of Steve
54:45Delo which is marked as uh hearing
54:48exhibit
54:52100 any objection to uh exhibit 100
54:57you're none so your honor oh yeah sorry
55:01had that already been mitted as part of
55:04exhibit 900 no it's not technically we
55:07still got to go through the whole the
55:08whole deal the
55:09900 it's it's a weird kind of deal but
55:13everything has to still be admitted so
55:16um 100 shall be
55:20admitted um Mr Carlson let me draw your
55:23attention to what we've marked as
55:25exhibit 100 101 uh entitled the
55:29supplemental um direct testimony of
55:31Steve Delo are you familiar with that
55:33document I am okay um and have you read
55:36it I have okay and uh again did you
55:40assist in the preparation of that uh
55:43supplemental direct testimony again I
55:46was I was aware that the testimony was
55:48being developed uh but I wasn't directly
55:50involved in writing
55:52it um having read the uh supplemental uh
55:56direct testimony uh do you adopt this
55:58testimony as your own I do you're
56:01honored this time we would move to admit
56:04exhibit
56:05101 any objection to
56:08101 hearing none it shall be
56:12admitted
56:20um one second
56:32I'm sorry for this I
56:37um the only other document I want to
56:40have him refer to right now is the one
56:42that unfortunately I was not able to
56:44upload so I have um sent it to feder
56:47Rico and uh with now the appropriate
56:51header hopefully on it it's not it's not
56:53a confidential document um I
56:57I'm go ahead I haven't received it yet
57:00um I
57:03know I I I'm just G ask a few questions
57:07generally before we get to that document
57:09so I think we can save some
57:11time what you I you can turn them over
57:14for cross- examination if you want I me
57:17and then come back and come back yeah um
57:20okay I mean I'm not I'm not sure I'm not
57:22sure how long it's going to take to get
57:23this document in all get it it over and
57:27I don't want to wait 10 minutes to do
57:28that I'd kind of like to do something in
57:29the meantime
57:32understood understood why don't I just
57:35so have him describe the nature of the
57:37change that's going to be reflected in
57:38that document then we can turn them over
57:40for cross and then bring them back
57:41that's fine it sounds good okay uh Mr
57:44Carlson in connection with your
57:45preparation of the of the testimony did
57:48you uh notice any errors in calculations
57:52of the monthly recurring
57:54costs there there were some changes
57:57required to the cost of the ethernet
57:59project and those uh changes resulted in
58:02bringing the cost down a little bit and
58:05so that changed the the uh uh the MRC
58:09rate uh to be down as
58:11well and in the in in the document that
58:14I show you is that is that what's going
58:16to be reflected in there
58:18correct all right uh your honor thank
58:21you I thank everyone for their patience
58:22on this and i' I'd like to Tender Mr
58:25Carlson cross uh and maybe you know at a
58:29good point we'll bring up 110 again or
58:31this this document up here which we're
58:33going to Mark into to at 110 and uh and
58:35have them talk about it then have them
58:37turn back to R back to cross okay that
58:40sounds good that's Miss uh your honor I
58:43have a a clarifying question when
58:45exhibit 100 was offered does that
58:47include all attachments it sure does
58:50okay and same with exhibit
58:52101 thank you
58:56all right your honor before we move on
58:59um and maybe just a clarifying I don't
59:02think we've seen this latest document
59:04yet no you haven't I can guarantee you
59:07haven't if if it could be sent here it's
59:10kind of hard to cross on it if we
59:11haven't seen it yet yeah get admitted
59:15yeah as soon as as soon as we get it up
59:17we'll do that but but at the very least
59:19he's explained what it is so you know
59:21what it is and you can keep that in your
59:22mind no as far as what it concerns is
59:24what I'm saying sure so and and if
59:26that's all you're going to cross on this
59:28going to be a short day sure but uh but
59:31uh since you probably got other things
59:33to cross on you can start on those uh
59:35but you can't Mr Cox because you're not
59:37first so uh M I believe you are first is
59:42that not
59:44correct so you may
59:47proceed thank you your honor um good
59:51morning Mr Carlson my name is Tracy
59:53older and I represent um two parties in
59:56this proceeding Lita the lmer emergency
59:59telephone Authority and ccoa the
1:00:01Colorado Council of authorities Inc um
1:00:05we've never met correct no we haven't
1:00:07but it's nice to meet you now nice to
1:00:09meet you as well remotely remotely
1:00:13exactly um you flew to Colorado for
1:00:16purposes of this proceeding I did and
1:00:19your testimony correct yes the the
1:00:23topics that are addressed in exhibit 100
1:00:27those are that's the direct testimony of
1:00:29Steve Doo the those topics are relevant
1:00:32to this proceeding correct yes they are
1:00:36and one of those attachments uh that
1:00:38would be attachment sd-1 that's the
1:00:42actual second amended application in
1:00:44this proceeding correct correct and the
1:00:48topics addressed in there are relevant
1:00:49to this proceeding aren't they they are
1:00:53and the same holds true with exhibit 101
1:00:56and its attachments the topics addressed
1:00:58therein are relevant to this proceeding
1:01:00correct they are okay going back to your
1:01:04qualifications and um I I heard Lumen
1:01:07and I heard Century Link who is your
1:01:11employer well um the the employers Lumen
1:01:17uh that's the the name we go by when we
1:01:20rebranded from centry link to lumen in
1:01:22my role I um started using Lumen all the
1:01:25time
1:01:26it's a little bit of a uh a twist for me
1:01:30in in this particular proceeding to have
1:01:32to reference Central Link again but uh I
1:01:36work for
1:01:38Lumen you work for Lumen and that can
1:01:41you state the full name of the legal
1:01:43entity
1:01:45Lumen um you know I'm not sure the full
1:01:48legal name to be honest okay
1:01:52um we are here as a representative of
1:01:54what company
1:01:58uh I'm here as a representative of of
1:02:00Sentry Link uh doing business as
1:02:04lummen the basic emergency service
1:02:07provider in Colorado is known as Quest
1:02:11Corporation doing business as Century
1:02:14Link QC are you familiar with that
1:02:17entity I am I am so what relation does
1:02:21that entity have to the uh year
1:02:23references to Century Link and lumen
1:02:27um uh Quest is
1:02:30a a um legal entity that uh centy link
1:02:36required um Cent link rebranded to Lumen
1:02:40um different legal entities from my
1:02:43point of view all part of the same
1:02:46company so if I understand correctly
1:02:48Quest Corporation doing business as
1:02:51centry link QC is the same as Lumen
1:02:55Technologies Inc and Century Link ink
1:02:58correct
1:03:10correct uh how long have you been in the
1:03:12Telecom industry
1:03:14sir uh since 1987
1:03:27and with respect to Quest Corporation
1:03:31doing business as Century Link QC that's
1:03:35a publicly traded entity correct yes it
1:03:42is is Lumen Technologies Inc a separate
1:03:46publicly traded entity no
1:04:00in uh its role um I for purposes of this
1:04:05proceeding can we refer to Quest
1:04:08Corporation doing business this Sentry
1:04:10Link QC as Sentry Link sure okay um
1:04:15Sentry Link wears multiple hats uh it's
1:04:18a network provider correct correct it's
1:04:22a local provider of voice and
1:04:24broadband correct it's a national and
1:04:27international Network
1:04:29operator correct and it's a wholesale
1:04:32services provider that's
1:04:35correct uh it also enters into
1:04:37interconnection agreements with uh
1:04:39originating service providers we
1:04:43do and that's where sentury link
1:04:46transports other carriers traffic for a
1:04:49fee is that
1:04:51correct correct that would be an example
1:04:53of that yes
1:04:56what portion of centur links business
1:04:59Nationwide relates to basic emergency
1:05:03service I'm not aware of what that
1:05:05portion
1:05:06is would you agree with me that with
1:05:09respect to all of the other um hats we
1:05:12described 911 or basic emergency service
1:05:15as a very small
1:05:18portion um well it depends on definition
1:05:21small uh but it's U it's one piece of a
1:05:26multi-billion dollar
1:05:27company but you have no idea what
1:05:31approximate portion or size piece I I
1:05:35don't know the exact percentage but it
1:05:37would um for reference real quickly here
1:05:40not that I think that it's wh relevant
1:05:42but are you talking about Nationwide
1:05:44because I thought your question listed
1:05:46Nationwide as opposed to Colorado I'm
1:05:48not sure why I care Nationwide but uh
1:05:51what are you referencing here Colorado
1:05:52or Nationwide uh I was going to do
1:05:54Nationwide first and then Colorado your
1:05:56honor why do I care about
1:05:58Nationwide um it relates to the services
1:06:01that flow into Colorado the transport
1:06:04Network which is Nationwide and the
1:06:06arrangements with other carriers am I
1:06:09approving a nationwide carrier service
1:06:10or something in this proceeding that I'm
1:06:12not aware of no you're we're addressing
1:06:15projects that specifically relate to
1:06:17transport technology and in the state of
1:06:20Colorado right and the request that 100%
1:06:23of those costs be allocated to emergency
1:06:26service basic emergency
1:06:33service so so my question was
1:06:36approximately uh Mr Carlson
1:06:38approximately what portion of Century
1:06:41Link's business relates to 911
1:06:47Nationwide um it's a it's a small small
1:06:50percentage but but I don't know the
1:06:52exact percentage it's a small percentage
1:06:55and then what about in
1:06:56Colorado a even smaller percentage
1:06:59relative to
1:07:06Nationwide
1:07:09um so you're familiar with Colorado's
1:07:11EET service I am and and U Century Links
1:07:16Colorado bees Network I
1:07:22am uh you're familiar with rule 2143
1:07:25that brings us to the application at
1:07:27issue I
1:07:34am uh when when did you um become aware
1:07:39that you would be the witness for
1:07:40Century Link at today's hearing U
1:07:43approximately three weeks ago
1:07:59you have knowledge of the monthly
1:08:01recurring charges that are in current
1:08:03tariff 25 governing the state of
1:08:06Colorado I
1:08:10do and you are you familiar with the
1:08:13additional services and features that
1:08:16Century Link uh indicated it intends to
1:08:19offer through a tariff Amendment at some
1:08:21point in
1:08:232024 I am
1:08:29is it an accurate statement that none of
1:08:31the additional services and features
1:08:33being
1:08:35contemplated uh are dependent upon the
1:08:38approval of any project in this second
1:08:43amended Improvement plan
1:08:47application um the scope of these
1:08:49projects are are focused on um um uh you
1:08:55know off inner office capabilities or or
1:08:58um uh
1:09:01resiliency um and uh upgrading the local
1:09:05Last Mile Loops to ethernet out to the
1:09:08paaps um the other projects that we're
1:09:12anticipating would be added to
1:09:15that okay so the last mile diversity
1:09:18portion of the ethernet upgrade project
1:09:23the additional services and features are
1:09:24dependent upon approval of
1:09:27that uh not necessarily no um the
1:09:32there's a services that we will provide
1:09:35uh for GIS data management um that um
1:09:40would um um wouldn't be dependent on
1:09:43that okay but other additional services
1:09:47like text to 911 or the gis routing
1:09:51those are dependent upon approval of the
1:09:53last mile upgrade proposed here
1:09:57um not that I'm aware of no
1:10:05okay um when you review the second
1:10:07amended application which is um exhibit
1:10:12100 attachment
1:10:15SD 1 c um Pages 1 through four of that
1:10:20refer to the application that centry
1:10:22link filed in
1:10:232023 and then withdrew correct correct
1:10:27and then Pages five and six of that
1:10:29exhibit refer to the meetings with the
1:10:31stakeholders that were held in the fall
1:10:33of
1:10:342023 before the amended application was
1:10:37filed in 2024 true
1:10:41correct and centry Lincoln's taking the
1:10:43position that the content of this um
1:10:46second amended application is based on
1:10:49feedback received from the stakeholders
1:10:52and information available from centur
1:10:54link engineers
1:11:10correct have you read staff's testimony
1:11:13exhibit
1:11:14400 I have have you read Lita's
1:11:17testimony exhibit 600 in its attachments
1:11:21I have have you read CCA OA as answer
1:11:24test in its attachments exhibit 700 I
1:11:33have is it an accurate statement that
1:11:36the 2024 amended application filed
1:11:38February 15 2024 asked that 100% of the
1:11:43$7.4
1:11:44million uh improvements be paid for
1:11:48through the Improvement plan application
1:11:51process that's accurate
1:11:57are you aware of a filing that sentury
1:12:00link made just three days prior in a Ru
1:12:02making in
1:12:04Colorado
1:12:0823577 I'm not familiar with that
1:12:11fent um is it an accurate statement if
1:12:15it was made on February 12
1:12:172024 in a filing made in 23r
1:12:220577 on page 4
1:12:25that events that occur in the local
1:12:28network regardless of which osp's
1:12:32network are not basic emergency service
1:12:36events and are not subject to commission
1:12:42regulation um I'm not I'm I'm not
1:12:46familiar with the commission regulation
1:12:48so I'm not really in a position to
1:12:50answer that
1:12:56uh your honor we would ask for
1:12:58administrative notice of Century Links
1:13:00filing in
1:13:0223r 0577 t on February 12th 2024 for
1:13:07purposes of sentur Link statements made
1:13:10in that proceeding that this witness is
1:13:12not familiar
1:13:14with Mr Carlson did you have anything to
1:13:16do with that
1:13:17proceeding I I did not okay um is there
1:13:21any objection to administrative notice
1:13:23of uh the file referen by m
1:13:27old yeah I believe so judge on relevance
1:13:30I don't obviously the witness isn't
1:13:33familiar with the testimony so there's
1:13:34no tie in with this witness if there's
1:13:37something in that particular other
1:13:39proceeding that has some bearing on this
1:13:41proceeding it hasn't come out yet
1:13:43Perhaps Miss old me can bring it out
1:13:44with her own witness but at this point I
1:13:47don't see any relevance between the
1:13:48statement in a different proceeding I
1:13:50haven't seen much relevance in this
1:13:51testimony altogether frankly up to this
1:13:53point but certainly not with respect
1:13:55back to a different
1:13:56proceeding alire what do you say to that
1:13:59I haven't seen I'm not sure what this
1:14:01document reports to say or would it be
1:14:04better through your own witness yeah
1:14:06that proceeding relates to the
1:14:09clarifying the outage rules for basic
1:14:11emergency service in Colorado it's
1:14:12critically important it ties into the
1:14:15whole point of an improvement plan
1:14:17application the intent and purpose
1:14:19behind rule
1:14:212143 and it's this entity's own
1:14:23statements that we tend to use against
1:14:26the entity when it's asking that 100% of
1:14:29the cost of a certain project be
1:14:32allocated under the the basic emergency
1:14:36Improvement plan process which goes down
1:14:38to rates that ultimately Colorado
1:14:40Citizens will pay through that Statewide
1:14:43sear charge whether something is an OSP
1:14:46Network issue and should be paid for the
1:14:48company through its normal
1:14:50operations um versus bees is a critical
1:14:53issue in this case and uh the relevancy
1:14:56will be established uh throughout
1:14:59throughout this proceeding and we'll tie
1:15:01it together in the statements of
1:15:02position obviously your honor can reject
1:15:05the positions of of my clients Lita and
1:15:09ccoa but the relevancy is critically
1:15:12important and should be admitted under
1:15:14the administrative procedures Act and
1:15:17the rules permitted therein um and you
1:15:21know we we ask that you take
1:15:23administrative notice ENT Link's own
1:15:25statements in a commission proceeding
1:15:30relating to outages affecting the bees
1:15:34Network since it is centy links um Fs in
1:15:38a proceeding before the commission um if
1:15:42you tell me again exactly what the give
1:15:43me the
1:15:44uh um proceeding and what pages and or
1:15:49paragraphs included in there that you'd
1:15:51like administrative notice of certainly
1:15:53your honor it's proceeding
1:15:5623r - 0577
1:15:59T it was Central links uh comments filed
1:16:03on February 12th
1:16:062024 and uh the relevant section is on
1:16:09page four P one okay all right I'll take
1:16:13administrative notice of Century Links
1:16:16filing on
1:16:1812224 page four in proceeding 23r -
1:16:230577 is that correct
1:16:25thank you your honor
1:16:34okay I'm just triple checking my my
1:16:36citation to page four that's fine that's
1:16:39fine it would be Pages three onto page
1:16:43four we'll say three and four I I hate
1:16:46bring I hate bringing a whole thing in
1:16:47if it's like 50 or 60 Pages no it's no
1:16:51that's that's what I mean so that is
1:16:52what the relevant part okay um Mr
1:16:55Carlson we're using an acronym uh OSP
1:16:58can you just explain um what what what
1:17:01is an OSP so the acronym is originating
1:17:05service
1:17:06provider uh in the context of 911 it is
1:17:10the organizations that um originate a
1:17:13911 call could be a local exchange
1:17:15carrier could be a wireless carrier
1:17:18could be a provider of VO Services uh
1:17:21it's any um provider that uh originates
1:17:25the 911 call that then has to uh
1:17:28interface with the 911 Network to get to
1:17:31a public safety answer point or be
1:17:36set um or get it to a point where it
1:17:39hands off the call to the basic
1:17:41emergency service provider for
1:17:43Colorado um the the bsp being defined as
1:17:47the 901 provider
1:17:50yes
1:17:53um in your
1:17:55um answer I don't know if you use the
1:17:57acronym Le or e um but what is a a Le or
1:18:02an ilc so uh Al is a local exchange
1:18:06carrier um uh also known as an EC um a
1:18:11local exchange carrier is a organization
1:18:14that has historically provided local
1:18:16exchange service um in its franchise
1:18:20territories in the state so Quest
1:18:22operated as a local exchange carrier
1:18:25uh in the State Central Link operates as
1:18:27a local exchange carrier in Colorado um
1:18:31and the the purpose of a local exchange
1:18:33carriers to originate and terminate
1:18:34local
1:18:38traffic thank you um in some of the
1:18:42documents that have been admitted
1:18:43there's a reference to um other acronyms
1:18:46and I just want to make sure that for
1:18:48purposes of when we tie this all
1:18:49together they're understood terms what's
1:18:52a pop a point of
1:18:56presence and what is a point of presence
1:18:59um you know a point of presence is where
1:19:02um um two Network facilities meet
1:19:05there's lots and lots of examples of
1:19:07Pops um but it is essentially it's where
1:19:10two two Network facilities exist in a
1:19:13centralized location approximately how
1:19:16many points of presence exist in
1:19:19Colorado uh I'm not sure what that the
1:19:21for the purpose I don't know short
1:19:24answer is I not aware of what that
1:19:25number is there would there could be a
1:19:27range of Pops in uh in Colorado uh there
1:19:31could be uh pops for o osps to uh uh to
1:19:36integrate with uh the 911 Network there
1:19:38can be pops for uh inter interconnecting
1:19:42with longdistance companies U there's a
1:19:45range of Pops that could exist okay are
1:19:48you able to answer how many pops exist
1:19:51for purposes of entry into the basic
1:19:54mergency service network in Colorado I'm
1:19:56not aware of what that number is
1:20:00no
1:20:02um what are meat
1:20:04points you know a meat point is a
1:20:07another type of um of um a a place where
1:20:13Network facilities come together um it
1:20:16it you know a pop is U you know is
1:20:19generally a more comprehensive place
1:20:21where multiple players or multiple
1:20:24organizations can bring their networks
1:20:26together uh whereas a meat point is is
1:20:29typically one one uh carrier to another
1:20:32or one telecommunication provider to
1:20:36another
1:20:38okay um where is Denver
1:20:41[Music]
1:20:42Maine um that I don't know the physical
1:20:45address in the Denver area okay what is
1:20:48Denver main um Denver Maine is a central
1:20:52office in Denver that the company owns
1:20:55and manages a range of telecommunication
1:20:58services are uh delivered either
1:21:01directly out of Denver main or those te
1:21:05telecommunication Services come through
1:21:07that location to be um transported to
1:21:12other parts of the
1:21:13state is it an aggregation point for the
1:21:17basic emergency service
1:21:19network um I'm not sure if it is I I
1:21:22don't know for sure on that
1:21:32um few more terms I want to talk about
1:21:34groom or grooming what does that mean
1:21:37you know grooming is a process that
1:21:39Network companies do over time to um um
1:21:44evaluate their networks to make changes
1:21:47to where uh circuits are writing on
1:21:50different parts of the network it's a um
1:21:53an ongoing process to um um make sure
1:21:56that the networks are defined as
1:21:58efficiently as
1:22:00possible is it possible that um a
1:22:05facility cannot carry 911 traffic
1:22:09because it's not groomed for 911
1:22:13traffic well you don't really groom for
1:22:15a particular type of traffic um you you
1:22:19groom for the the the way circuits are
1:22:23uh designed in into a network
1:22:25architecture so I I'm not not sure how
1:22:27to answer that question okay so you're
1:22:30telling me there's no specific grooming
1:22:32needed that's specific for 911 it's just
1:22:35call traffic so um 911 circuits are
1:22:39Tagged so we know that they're 911
1:22:41circuits um there's attention paid uh in
1:22:44the grooming process to make sure that
1:22:45if the circuit that we're looking at is
1:22:47a 911 circuit that it is um treated
1:22:50accordingly but there isn't a specific
1:22:54groom process for
1:22:56911 there can be a specific grooming
1:22:58process though for circuits that are
1:23:00designated 911 circuits uh as a part of
1:23:04the grooming as a part of the grooming
1:23:06process 911 circuits could be
1:23:09evaluated hey Miss om yes sir you could
1:23:12you tell me what project talks about
1:23:15grooming um it's in the FCC audit which
1:23:18is um
1:23:21attachment exhibit 100 attachment that
1:23:24was my question my question is what
1:23:27project um it relates to the Sonet to
1:23:29ethernet
1:23:31project and and the outages related to
1:23:33that as well as um the equipment
1:23:36upgrade Lamar to Burlington that will
1:23:38need the equipment so that traffic can
1:23:41flow you're going to help me more if if
1:23:44when you're going down lines like this
1:23:46if you relate them to a project because
1:23:47that's what I'm looking it okay um I'll
1:23:51expedite this then and and ask these
1:23:54questions specific to the projects I
1:23:56mean not not that I'm not incredibly
1:23:57curious about everything that goes into
1:23:59the 911 system but uh I'm here about
1:24:02project yeah well let me ask Mr Carlson
1:24:06this question would you agree with me Mr
1:24:08Carlson that that 911 is extremely
1:24:12complex I would definitely agree with
1:24:14that and so it's important for purposes
1:24:17of someone um like a governing body or a
1:24:21peace app to understand that Network
1:24:24correct
1:24:26well um I think it depends on the level
1:24:28of understanding so um I've been with
1:24:31the company for 35 years I've learned a
1:24:34lot about telecommunications over the
1:24:36years um uh I I I don't have the same
1:24:39level of understanding as our Engineers
1:24:41do that that's their area of expertise
1:24:43so uh I I depend on them to have a level
1:24:47of understanding that um is way deeper
1:24:50than mine so when I think about like
1:24:52staff like Jennifer Kirkland or or even
1:24:55Daryl Branson individuals I've had a
1:24:56chance to speak with over the years I
1:24:59want them to have an understanding of at
1:25:03at the appropriate level of detail of
1:25:04how the 911 system in Colorado works but
1:25:08the question really gets to at what
1:25:10level of detail should that
1:25:12understanding exist and how how how much
1:25:16into the engineering components of it
1:25:18would we get one to
1:25:28um if we could please pull up um exhibit
1:25:32101 attachment sd4 which is not a
1:25:36confidential exhibit and turn to page
1:25:49three are these the projects that are at
1:25:52issue in the application that you are
1:25:54asking judge um Garvey to
1:25:57consider they are and so uh the total in
1:26:01the far right column bottom right is $
1:26:034.64 eight million correct correct and
1:26:08uh if you add look at the columns
1:26:10there's a total of six projects
1:26:13correct um correct and if you go to page
1:26:17two the proceeding
1:26:21page in the bottom uh chart what you are
1:26:26asking is in part judge gar consider
1:26:29approving this project using math for
1:26:32623 concurrent sessions over a 24mon
1:26:37recovery period
1:26:38correct um we're requesting recovery
1:26:41over 12 months um we've showed two
1:26:43options here 12 months and 24 months
1:26:47okay so you prefer the top chart not the
1:26:50bottom
1:26:51chart that's what we've requested okay
1:26:56and with respect to the top chart that
1:26:58increases the Statewide surch charge by
1:27:00over 5 cents
1:27:02correct yes and on the bottom chart uh
1:27:06that increases the uh Statewide 911 Sur
1:27:11charge uh to approximately three cents
1:27:13correct correct but neither one of these
1:27:17charts include the last mile diversity
1:27:19MRC that you mentioned earlier in your
1:27:22testimony correct no that's a separate
1:27:24charge okay and so have you done any
1:27:27calculations adding that MRC into the
1:27:31state 911 SE charge to determine if the
1:27:33bottom chart puts puts it at above three
1:27:37cents no I've not done that
1:27:40calculation and with respect to the
1:27:42revisions exhibit 110 that will be
1:27:45forthcoming is the change that you made
1:27:47it from 600 concurrent sessions to 623
1:27:51concurrent
1:27:52sessions no
1:27:59um if we look at this um page two of the
1:28:06exhibit that is up and using the 24mon
1:28:08recovery period the monthly recurring
1:28:11charge under tariff 25 goes up um per
1:28:14concurrent session by
1:28:16$310 186 is that correct correct and
1:28:21that would begin to flow in in March of
1:28:222025
1:28:24correct and so if you multiply $310 186
1:28:28by 623 concurrent sessions that's
1:28:33193,000 plus um that will be coming in
1:28:36to cover the cost of these projects
1:28:39correct um I I'll accept the math of
1:28:41that
1:28:50yes I'm going to go to the um equipment
1:28:53of upgrade for Burlington and Lamar um
1:28:57that's an inter office diversity project
1:29:00as you've
1:29:01described excuse me as Mr do described
1:29:04in exhibit 100 correct that's correct in
1:29:08an in office diversity project goes
1:29:10between Century Links Central offices
1:29:13correct correct and the first attachment
1:29:17to the second amended Improvement plan
1:29:19we don't need to pull it up because it's
1:29:20confidential but that would be
1:29:22attachment uh exhibit 100 attachment
1:29:26sd1
1:29:28d1c page two is an actual map of those
1:29:32inter office facilities in Colorado
1:29:35correct correct do you have a copy in
1:29:38front of
1:29:39you
1:29:44uh I don't just second are you gonna be
1:29:48asking questions about the confidential
1:29:49exhibit I just wanted him to explain the
1:29:52legend and I didn't know if
1:29:55explaining the legend would need to be
1:29:57off the Record if it is I'm not well I
1:29:59mean I don't know what your questions
1:30:00are going to be I just I just I just I
1:30:03just heard that word confidential pop
1:30:05out and so um if they're not if you know
1:30:09be careful so I
1:30:10say I have the map in front of me okay
1:30:14for purposes of uh the administrative
1:30:19law judges understanding of that
1:30:21particular exhibit and the arguments
1:30:22that will be made from it
1:30:24it are you able to publicly explain what
1:30:29the Legends under the facilities by
1:30:32owner and type
1:30:36mean or do we need to go off the
1:30:39Record
1:30:41well
1:30:43um I'm U familiar with uh the the the
1:30:49the the naming here of certain
1:30:51facilities are leased certain uh
1:30:53facilities are our fiber um but I can't
1:30:56speak to the specific sir I'm not
1:30:57familiar with the specific examples here
1:31:01you're not familiar with the color
1:31:03coding excuse me you're not familiar
1:31:06with the color coding oh no I'm not or
1:31:10the the um descriptions that follow the
1:31:13color coding under facilities by owner
1:31:15and type what I would say is the the
1:31:20where it says lease those are lease
1:31:21facilities where it says fiber those are
1:31:23fiber
1:31:24where it says T carrier those are T1
1:31:26systems and so it's the different kinds
1:31:29of um uh underlying facilities that we
1:31:33use across the state in
1:31:40Colorado um can you briefly describe uh
1:31:44what is a central
1:31:46office central office has a physical
1:31:48building that houses telecommunications
1:31:50equipment um it's used for different
1:31:53purposes um across a range of services
1:31:56that telecommunication providers uh
1:31:58provide to their
1:32:00customers and those are noted in the
1:32:03confidential uh
1:32:06exhibit exhibit 100 attachment sd1 d1c
1:32:10they're noted with um yellow circles
1:32:18correct uh correct and there's there's
1:32:21approximately 227 Central offices in
1:32:25Colorado that's that's my understanding
1:32:30yes are Central offices specific for 911
1:32:34traffic no they carry all traffic
1:32:37correct
1:32:41correct so if a central office diversity
1:32:44is increased or improved that is for the
1:32:47benefit of all traffic including 911
1:32:50traffic well it it depends on if the
1:32:52traffic uses the Improvement so that's
1:32:55uh in the case of the projects that
1:32:58we're proposing now the only traffic
1:32:59that we're aware of is traffic that's
1:33:01dedicated to
1:33:05911 I you identify for me the central
1:33:08offices in Colorado that are 911
1:33:12specific well there are
1:33:14none there there are no 911 only Central
1:33:17offices
1:33:25would you agree with me where everything
1:33:27even if you have middle mile diversity
1:33:29funnels down to a central office there
1:33:32is common equipment shared in that
1:33:33central office
1:33:37correct um the real common equipment is
1:33:40the building
1:33:41itself within the building is racks of
1:33:44different kinds of telecommunications
1:33:46equipment that can be um um used for
1:33:49different purposes sometimes the
1:33:51equipment is dedicated to a service
1:33:53particular service
1:33:54sometimes the um equipment is dedicated
1:33:57to particular customer uh but the only
1:33:59thing that's really common is the
1:34:01central office itself okay so are you is
1:34:05it your testimony that there's no
1:34:07unavoidable common equipment in a
1:34:09central
1:34:11office I'm not saying there's no common
1:34:14equipment I'm saying that the it depends
1:34:18on which part of the central office
1:34:20you're talking about the definition of
1:34:22common so there's
1:34:24common for the infrastructure itself the
1:34:26building that's shared by everything in
1:34:28the building um there's if you go into
1:34:31the building and you see racks of
1:34:33equipment and look at the equipment
1:34:35that's in those racks sometimes that
1:34:37equipment is common to a service
1:34:40sometimes it's common to a customer in a
1:34:43particular situation it all it's all
1:34:45situational it varies okay so there can
1:34:48be equipment common to the basic
1:34:50emergency service that Sentry Link
1:34:52provides
1:34:54sure there could be okay and with
1:34:56respect to that central office that
1:34:58building you described if the power goes
1:35:01out that's a problem correct correct and
1:35:06so um even though you might have middle
1:35:08mile diversity to get to that central
1:35:10office that central office could be a
1:35:12single point of failure because of a
1:35:14power failure
1:35:16correct um you have to take care of each
1:35:20piece and certainly power at the central
1:35:23office is one
1:35:31correct um landline calls can go through
1:35:35a central office correct they do and
1:35:38wireless calls can go through a central
1:35:41office they they can in the right
1:35:44situation so um um if a a wireless
1:35:50carrier is interconnecting with our
1:35:52Network in Colorado and those calls are
1:35:55getting to their end users um on
1:35:58facilities in are end office or central
1:36:01office it could it all depends the
1:36:03particular
1:36:06situation with respect to this project
1:36:09the Burlington Lamar upgrade that is for
1:36:12additional equipment that's needed to
1:36:13use Fiber connections that exist between
1:36:16Cheyenne Wells and Kit Carson
1:36:19correct correct you need two pieces here
1:36:24uh in order to turn up a new circuit one
1:36:27is you need the fiber itself it's the
1:36:29glass that the calls travel across um
1:36:33the second piece you need is the
1:36:34electronics to actually use the glass it
1:36:37lights it up makes the lights flicker
1:36:39and so in this case in order to um
1:36:43utilize fiber that's already there for
1:36:45this diversity we need the incremental
1:36:48equipment that lights up that fiber okay
1:36:52so the fiber is there and its own by a
1:36:53third party correct I'm not aware that
1:36:56it's owned by a third party if you look
1:36:59at the map in front of
1:37:02you and you use the
1:37:05legend between Kit Carson and Cheyenne
1:37:08Wells does the legend help you answer my
1:37:12question uh I I'm I'm not aware of the
1:37:15the I wouldn't want to answer that you
1:37:18know with certainty I just don't know um
1:37:21if there's any Lumin fiber there or or
1:37:23if it's least
1:37:27fiber if there's Lumen fiber there well
1:37:31let me back up there's fiber there
1:37:34correct correct and there's fiber that's
1:37:36been there for years
1:37:39correct um I don't know how long it's
1:37:41been there but it's there
1:37:43now and um that fiber carries
1:37:49traffic uh I I I I assume so
1:37:55the only missing piece is this equipment
1:37:57or excuse me the electronics that you
1:37:59described to light it
1:38:00up
1:38:02correct
1:38:04um and this is just so the fiber strand
1:38:07I'm sorry the just to clarify the fiber
1:38:09strands that we're looking to
1:38:12access would would be dark and would be
1:38:15lit up with the equipment that we're
1:38:19proposing so they're not being used for
1:38:22any inter office diversity purpose
1:38:26now not that I'm aware of no why why is
1:38:30it on your inter office um map then if
1:38:36it's not serving any purpose currently
1:38:39um
1:38:41well the the fiber route
1:38:44itself um would have uh Fiber Optic
1:38:49Cables within the route that could be
1:38:51used for other purposes what we're
1:38:54looking to do is to light up uh strands
1:38:57that aren't being used and we need the
1:38:59electronics to do
1:39:06that looking looking at the legend
1:39:08there's a reference to an independent
1:39:10switch can you explain what's an
1:39:11independent
1:39:14switch I'm not familiar with that
1:39:17terminology the additional equipment
1:39:20that you're proposing uh would uh
1:39:23benefit all traffic not just 9911
1:39:26traffic
1:39:27true the only traffic we're aware of
1:39:30right now that'll benefit from that will
1:39:31be 911 traffic I don't understand your
1:39:34answer is it your testimony that there
1:39:36will be no tra no voice calls no traffic
1:39:40other than 911
1:39:42calls um it's it's my testimony that
1:39:46when when we look at the facts at hand
1:39:50the facts at hand say that the traffic
1:39:53that will use these facilities that are
1:39:56being put in place will be 91 one
1:39:58traffic um beyond that who might
1:40:01theoretically or hypothetically use or
1:40:03how we might use it in the future I I
1:40:05don't have any information to answer how
1:40:08that how that might um how that might
1:40:11develop okay if I'm a citizen in
1:40:15Cheyenne walls and I place a 911 call uh
1:40:20when is it identified as a 911 call
1:40:24it's identified as a 911 call by the
1:40:26local switch that serves the citizen and
1:40:29that's in the central office
1:40:32correct so the call has to get to the
1:40:35central office to even determine if it's
1:40:37a call to Mom or a 911 call it does
1:40:41across the local
1:40:46Loop does centry link have local
1:40:48customers in that area yes
1:40:56does centry link have interconnection
1:40:58agreements with carriers to transport
1:41:00their traffic in that
1:41:03area uh I'm
1:41:05not we have interconnection with other
1:41:08carriers in the state I'm not sure how
1:41:10it specifically would apply here in this
1:41:13this part part of the
1:41:17state
1:41:20um are you aware of any times centry
1:41:23link has taken the position that a fiber
1:41:25cut
1:41:27affecting paaps in that area were
1:41:31outages in the OSP network not the basic
1:41:34emergency service
1:41:37network um I'm not I'm not aware of
1:41:41specific statements no uh your honor I'd
1:41:44ask that you take administrative notice
1:41:47of outage investigation
1:41:50246 filed in commission preceding
1:41:5524m
1:41:570020 t as in Tom and that's a outage
1:42:03affecting uh prowers
1:42:05County um and the pp in that facility
1:42:10and Sentry links positions taken in that
1:42:18case so what was filed in that case I I
1:42:21I I have the case number but what
1:42:22exactly was filed by who and by who yep
1:42:26so uh the commission staff filed report
1:42:30number
1:42:3224-6 and um it's an 11 page
1:42:36filing and in particular on page seven
1:42:40paragraph six Century Link's response
1:42:44was this was a fiber cut in the OSP
1:42:46Network and was not a failure of the
1:42:49bees service all right um there any OB
1:42:53to take an administrative notice of that
1:42:562406 outage filing by the commission
1:42:58staff in proceeding 24m
1:43:04z2t uh no you're honor okay um
1:43:07administrative notice shall be taken of
1:43:12that and in that uh Mr Caron are you
1:43:16aware that uh Central Lake took the
1:43:19position that in office diversity in
1:43:21that OSP Network could have mitigated or
1:43:23prevented that outage caused by the
1:43:25fiber
1:43:27cut I'm I'm not aware of that specific
1:43:30statement that was made
1:43:33then let's go to the um cost of this so
1:43:37centry link got one quote for this piece
1:43:39of equipment and it's
1:43:42$235,000 roughly
1:43:44correct correct and that's all in with
1:43:47all of the optional Services listed in
1:43:49the quote correct correct and so so with
1:43:53all those optional Services listed
1:43:55there's really nothing left for Century
1:43:57Link to do it's that company is going to
1:44:00install it and and migrate the traffic
1:44:05correct um well no I wouldn't say that
1:44:09um you know to to put a piece of
1:44:11equipment into the network like the
1:44:13example here um we would Leverage The
1:44:17the organization that supplies us with
1:44:20the equipment um that they may be the
1:44:23group that does the installation it may
1:44:24be a a lumen technician that does the
1:44:27installation um there'll certainly be
1:44:30ongoing maintenance of that equipment
1:44:32that would be required over time and so
1:44:34I would expect the Lumen technician to
1:44:36be engaged in that okay but I'm just
1:44:39talking about getting it set up all of
1:44:40the optional Services include all in
1:44:43that company is going to turn it on for
1:44:46you that um you know I'm not specific
1:44:49with all the features on this particular
1:44:51equipment so I don't know if
1:44:53100% of the features available are
1:44:55included here or just the features
1:44:57required for this particular situation
1:45:00we would uh send our um uh quote request
1:45:04to the company laying out specifically
1:45:06what we needed for this particular
1:45:08situation in terms of functionality and
1:45:11then what we would get back from the
1:45:13supplier would be a quote that supported
1:45:15those requirements okay and so um if one
1:45:19wanted to look at the detail for that in
1:45:21particular
1:45:23one would go
1:45:26to exhibit
1:45:30100 attachment SD
1:45:331-5 C page three to look at the
1:45:37equipment total the optional fiber
1:45:40characterization the optional
1:45:43budgetary um e f and I services and the
1:45:47traffic migration Services correct
1:45:50correct and that's how you get to the
1:45:52235,000
1:45:53total correct correct if we could put up
1:45:56exhibit 101 attachment sd4 at page three
1:46:00uh it's sd4 revision two please hey sire
1:46:05I'm gonna ask you real quickly I apolog
1:46:07I really apologize um but uh before you
1:46:11start in on that I want to go off the
1:46:12record for one second I just want to
1:46:15check with my court reporter because
1:46:16it's 105 and I just want I want to make
1:46:18sure she's okay and um Tracy you okay
1:46:23I I'm good to go to 11 okay all right I
1:46:25just wanted to make sure on that okay I
1:46:27apologize Miss old I gotta I gotta take
1:46:29care of people take care of me back
1:46:33water we'll go back on the record hurry
1:46:36up with
1:46:39that okay thank you for your
1:46:48patience okay Mr Carlson I I've put back
1:46:50up um the um
1:46:53exhibit 101 attachment sd4 page three
1:46:57and the Burlington Lamar equipment
1:46:59project is the third column so the
1:47:02equipment costs are the 235,000 in the
1:47:05second row correct correct and then
1:47:08there's an overhead charge of 6% that
1:47:11totals $14,000 what's the
1:47:13overhead so um I I think it's important
1:47:17to kind of segregate costs here so as
1:47:20you described earlier those those
1:47:23um the functionality that the cost um to
1:47:26deliver the functionality from the
1:47:28supplier U is in the 235,000 it's the
1:47:33let's call it the setup cost that um the
1:47:36engineering uh cost the things of that
1:47:39nature that um um we need to to get the
1:47:42equipment up and running but it's not
1:47:44the total of costs that we incur uh even
1:47:48in the the the installation process or
1:47:52the the ongoing going taking care of the
1:47:53equipment once it's in place so that's
1:47:56why um we use a factor here in this case
1:48:00of 6% to account for those um uh for
1:48:04those uh additional costs that we would
1:48:07expect to incur beyond the the initial
1:48:10cost and in other proceedings we've used
1:48:138.76% as that overhead that's been
1:48:15accepted in the past in the ezet uh
1:48:19tariff and the eat's Tariff and so um
1:48:23this line item here is um seeking to um
1:48:27you know to quantify using a factor what
1:48:31those overhead or additional costs might
1:48:33be okay and again I'm just going to ask
1:48:36real narrow questions because I'm
1:48:37limited in time but so is it your
1:48:40testimony that overhead is engineering
1:48:42costs and then ongoing maintenance and
1:48:45things like that o overhead is a range
1:48:48of costs it could be shipping costs it
1:48:50could be it there there's a range of
1:48:53costs that's why it's a factor um it's a
1:48:56factor based on experience that um has
1:48:59been developed um to uh allocate an
1:49:03amount to uh to expected costs going
1:49:06forward okay so it's not an actual cost
1:49:09based figure where shipping costs $1,000
1:49:13and sales tax was 1,500 it's not that
1:49:17level of detail it's just like you said
1:49:20a 6% estimate a catch it's it's a factor
1:49:24based on
1:49:27experience and um so you calculate then
1:49:30looking back at this exhibit for the um
1:49:35B Burlington Lamar equipment project you
1:49:37get a subtotal of
1:49:40[Music]
1:49:41$249,450 correct correct correct and
1:49:44you're calculating Century Links profit
1:49:47off of that subtotal that includes this
1:49:496% overhead Factor correct
1:49:53correct and then with respect to Capital
1:49:56costs you're adding 15% per year if this
1:49:59was over 24 months there would be
1:50:0437,000 Plus for two years correct
1:50:08correct and so the difference is for
1:50:11purchasing a piece of equipment worth
1:50:15$235,300 with all optional Services
1:50:19provided by that vendor Century Link
1:50:21gets another
1:50:245,138 52
1:50:29correct um I'm not sure I understand
1:50:32your question could you ask it again the
1:50:34difference between the equipment cost of
1:50:36235,000
1:50:38plus and the total cost line the 350 is
1:50:43roughly 115,000
1:50:46correct that's the difference between
1:50:48the two correct and centry Link's going
1:50:50to own that equipment outright
1:50:53correct and there are no restrictions on
1:50:55its use no oversight of whether it's
1:50:58specific to 911 or used for all call
1:51:01Traffic
1:51:03true
1:51:05um what we've identified for use of this
1:51:08equipment is 911 traffic exclusively
1:51:10that that's what we've identified here
1:51:12so um it was engineered to do that I'm
1:51:15not aware of any extra capacity in this
1:51:18equipment to be used for other services
1:51:21um it's the equipment that has been
1:51:22identified to to uh enable the fiber
1:51:26connectivity for 911
1:51:28services and so um again my question is
1:51:32there's no restrictions on its use
1:51:34though in your proposal
1:51:37correct um no restrictions but it's
1:51:41purposed for just one thing and that's
1:51:44911 and so for purposes of this piece of
1:51:47equipment if
1:51:49the uh MRC is the 3 $10 that we talked
1:51:53about earlier times 623 concurrent
1:51:57sessions if the first month and month
1:52:00and a half are allocated specifically
1:52:02this to this project if it's approved
1:52:05that would cover the full cost of this
1:52:07piece of equipment
1:52:12correct
1:52:13um I'd have to see the math I'm not I'm
1:52:16not tracking with your math
1:52:19here um is there any way that by paying
1:52:22in full the cost of that piece of
1:52:24equipment these uh roughly
1:52:28$74,000 in capital costs could be
1:52:33avoided well
1:52:37um
1:52:40so the I guess I'll answer it this way
1:52:43so the the capital cost shown here for
1:52:46year one year two are um anticipating
1:52:51that um um per our request we would
1:52:54begin investing in this in
1:52:572024 and so since the recovery wouldn't
1:53:00start until March um and then it would
1:53:04come in a month at a time we would um
1:53:07expend the capital um upfront in
1:53:11everything that we need and then the
1:53:13recovery would come in O over time and
1:53:16so since we're
1:53:20leveraging uh uh lumen Capital uh to
1:53:24enable that there would be Capital costs
1:53:26that we have to account for so uh there
1:53:29was nothing in our um uh calculations
1:53:32that
1:53:33anticipate um the the the monies being
1:53:38received in 2024 in fact I don't know
1:53:41that how that could even happen if the
1:53:42rates wouldn't be approved until March
1:53:44of
1:53:442025 that was my question sir I directed
1:53:47it to March of 2025 when that additional
1:53:50search charge increase started the
1:53:53capital cost could be avoided if the
1:53:56cost of
1:53:57equipment it was allocated specifically
1:54:00to that project right
1:54:02away versus spread over all approved
1:54:09projects um I I I suppose that's
1:54:12theoretically correct but I don't I
1:54:14don't um I I don't see how that plays
1:54:17out given the timing how funding Works
1:54:19in Colorado so um our recommendation has
1:54:22to has to reflect the most probable
1:54:26situation which is we're spending our
1:54:28capital and and we have to account for
1:54:30the cost of that Capital um you know and
1:54:33then taxes and depreciation other items
1:54:37that um would be additional
1:54:41costs um will you clarify for the alj
1:54:45when you say Capital costs exactly what
1:54:48are you referring to You' mentioned the
1:54:49time value of money that you fronted the
1:54:52cost and need to recoup it over time
1:54:54depending on how you take the dollars
1:54:56and allocate them over all the approved
1:54:58projects what
1:55:00else what we reflected in the
1:55:0315% um is uh the carrying cost of the
1:55:08capital uh and that's a you know a
1:55:10calculation that um you know our finance
1:55:13organization does and then provides out
1:55:16to the um engineering term to or team to
1:55:20use our um business case developers um
1:55:23it also includes um uh a recognition
1:55:28that um uh there will be uh uh taxes
1:55:32that will be owed on the on um the the
1:55:36services provided um and also the a
1:55:39recognition again our assumption here is
1:55:42the recovery comes in over time when we
1:55:46when we um U make an investment a
1:55:49capital investment like we would be
1:55:50doing here um um you know per tax
1:55:54purposes we depreciate that over long
1:55:56periods of time whatever the IRS allows
1:55:59for a particular class of asset and so
1:56:03um uh that means um you're getting the
1:56:07revenue over two years um but the the
1:56:11depreciation is being spread over
1:56:12multiple years so it creates a a tax
1:56:15burden that we have to account for in
1:56:17these Capital costs so that's the
1:56:19depreciation piece okay and so what
1:56:21portion of that 15% are carrying costs
1:56:24and what portion is this um recognition
1:56:27of taxes on Services provided that you
1:56:30just describe I I don't have that split
1:56:32out by by subp Parts I just have the
1:56:35overall 15% okay and so you're saying
1:56:38you get to own a piece of equipment
1:56:41without incurring an actual expense
1:56:44because you're
1:56:46reimbursed
1:56:49right um well we do we do incur an
1:56:53expense you know we'll pay the the
1:56:56companies who will put in the fiber and
1:56:58and uh who will implement the equipment
1:57:01so we will incur that Capital just like
1:57:04any project will do any project across
1:57:06the company that has a capital portion
1:57:09will incur that and then we'll balance
1:57:12against that the revenue that comes in
1:57:14in this case through um the Tariff
1:57:17charges okay so you're calling it
1:57:20Revenue versus reimbursement so that's
1:57:22pay taxes on income taxes we pay taxes
1:57:26on it yes you're going to pay income tax
1:57:29on the uh
1:57:33reimbursement for we receive a re we'll
1:57:35receive a revenue stream into the
1:57:38corporation uh for this work um it'll
1:57:41show up on our income statement as a
1:57:44revenue stream um uh we will uh um um we
1:57:51will pay for the equipment it'll show up
1:57:53as a capital cost on our balance sheet
1:57:56and uh we'll offset the revenue with the
1:57:59expenses associated with it one of them
1:58:02is depreciation and so because of the
1:58:05timing nature of of um uh the how the
1:58:10Tariff charges flow back to us um it it
1:58:13creates a position where um uh we need
1:58:17to account for those depreciation costs
1:58:19in this Factor
1:58:22is there any way to account for this
1:58:24Revenue stream through the Improvement
1:58:26plan process as a grant that is received
1:58:29over a 24mth period thus you don't pay
1:58:33income on it uh I'm not aware of that I
1:58:36I'm not familiar with that
1:58:43process um I want to turn to the to the
1:58:45next major project um in this and we can
1:58:48leave this um exhibit up it would be the
1:58:53fourth column the ethernet upgrade uh
1:58:57project and there's a footnote one uh on
1:59:01hearing exhibit 101 attachment sd4 page
1:59:04three revision two that we have up um
1:59:09and you indicate that only the total
1:59:11costs are listed here is that the
1:59:141.76 million total cost so the the 1.76
1:59:20million cost shown here on this chart is
1:59:22for the non-recurring charges associated
1:59:25with the ethernet upgrade it's not the
1:59:28MRC it's just the non-recurring
1:59:31charges correct
1:59:34um you're familiar with the FCC audit
1:59:38for 2023 that's been filed as part of
1:59:40this application correct oh am and there
1:59:43are three sections to that annual report
1:59:46one addresses Network backup power
1:59:48correct correct one addresses network
1:59:51monitoring
1:59:52correct and one address the circuit
1:59:54diversity by
1:59:56peap yes and I want to focus on that um
2:00:02page in a minute but would you agree
2:00:04with me that the FCC report does not
2:00:06reflect all single points of failure in
2:00:09the bees
2:00:11Network that's correct it it gives you a
2:00:14starting point and um um um but it's not
2:00:20it's not comprehensive right the FCC
2:00:23only requires that audit to relate to
2:00:26critical 911 circuits that are defined
2:00:29in in the regulations correct correct
2:00:32correct and and just for purposes of of
2:00:35uh administrative notice we' asked uh
2:00:38judge Garvey to take administrative
2:00:39notice of 47
2:00:42CFR section
2:00:4519.9
2:00:48A5 which is the definition of critical
2:00:51911
2:00:53circuits
2:00:55um give that to me one more time I I I
2:00:58couldn't find my pen quick enough when
2:01:00you started talking so I got 47 CFR and
2:01:03let me make sure I get it all section
2:01:069.19 A five 47 CFR 1
2:01:129.91
2:01:14A5 um 47 CFR
2:01:199.19 A5
2:01:23okay 47
2:01:259.19
2:01:27A5 uh any objection to administrative
2:01:29notice of that CFR no you're honor okay
2:01:32administrative notion sh not excuse me
2:01:34administrative notice shall be taken
2:01:37that with respect to um this ethernet
2:01:42upgrade a key piece to it is removing
2:01:44Sonet technology
2:01:47correct um it it's um maybe not so much
2:01:52removing the technology but not using it
2:01:54anymore so getting off the Sonet
2:01:56technology and on to
2:02:01ethernet and um the Sonet technology
2:02:04shares a common central office in Denver
2:02:07correct that's correct and so that
2:02:10creates a Statewide risk of a Denver
2:02:13based failure if that one central office
2:02:16where all Sonet technology goes uh goes
2:02:20down correct that's correct that's
2:02:22correct and that would affect 47 PS in
2:02:25Colorado true correct where's the list
2:02:28of the 47 PS that would be affected do
2:02:31you have one um well it's it's on the
2:02:35list um that has all the costing of it
2:02:38but I'm not sure it's specifically
2:02:39called out to which ones go through
2:02:41Denver main or not I I don't have that
2:02:43list okay and the common central office
2:02:46in Denver is Denver made correct why is
2:02:49Sonet Tech designed that way
2:02:53so uh you know telecommunications
2:02:56technology has evolved over time and uh
2:02:59there was a time when uh everything was
2:03:02copper and things moved at Copper speed
2:03:05one of the technologies that was
2:03:07deployed a long time ago was uh this uh
2:03:11Sonic technology and it came into uh
2:03:16favor because one it was a fiber optic
2:03:19it would have um and it would give you
2:03:22faster uh bandwidth speeds uh but it
2:03:25could be deployed in a a dual ring
2:03:28architecture where basically traffic
2:03:30could go across two rings um and uh you
2:03:34would have uh more resiliency to it
2:03:37Sonet is is more of a point-to-point
2:03:40architecture where is ethernet is
2:03:42multi-point so there's more flexibility
2:03:44there ethernet is a future technology so
2:03:49um finding uh equipment for Sonet
2:03:53technology uh becomes more difficult
2:03:56over time and so the it had its purpose
2:03:59at the time just like frame relay had
2:04:02its purpose over time just like ATM had
2:04:04its purpose at at historically but the
2:04:07future is IP and writing over ethernet
2:04:10uh
2:04:11networks okay
2:04:13so
2:04:15and the
2:04:17commonality of the Sonet technology
2:04:20going through Denver
2:04:24be removed by
2:04:28reconfiguration no no it is not on the
2:04:32not on the Sonet system you would still
2:04:35have the same limitations of the Sonet
2:04:37system if if your question is can you
2:04:40use Sonet in a different way to get the
2:04:43resiliency um I'm I'm not an engineer so
2:04:47I'm kind of on the edge of my knowledge
2:04:48here but uh you really have to get to
2:04:51ethernet
2:04:52Sonet has has upper boundaries on how
2:04:55much bandwidth you can have 50 meg I
2:04:58believe it is um the upper boundaries on
2:05:01ethernet is a gate and so or or more you
2:05:04could even more than that so I don't
2:05:06think you would ever um work to uh work
2:05:11with the Sonet that's already in
2:05:14place for purposes of the E correct well
2:05:18I think for purposes generally but
2:05:20certainly for the purposes of the 47
2:05:23sites that we're talking about peace
2:05:24applications that we're talking about
2:05:27here and so Sonet is is also known as
2:05:31synchronous Optical Network correct
2:05:33correct correct and the FCC in its um
2:05:38proceeding uh to expedite the
2:05:41implementation of Next Generation 911
2:05:44it's really encouraging getting rid of
2:05:47TDM technology correct correct and Son
2:05:51it is TDM
2:05:53technology uh correct and TDM stands for
2:05:57time division
2:05:58multiplexing very good that's correct
2:06:01and so it's basically Legacy stuff it's
2:06:04Legacy it's Legacy technology that's
2:06:06correct is it Legacy technology that's
2:06:09specific to
2:06:10911 no when this sonit network and
2:06:16technology is removed and replaced with
2:06:19ethernet is that going to affect only
2:06:21911
2:06:23traffic um my understanding is uh there
2:06:27are multiple Sonet
2:06:30systems that um are used in the Denver
2:06:34area and what we're talking about here
2:06:36is taking the 911 traffic off one of
2:06:40those systems so the the Sonet will
2:06:43continue to exist but 911 use of Sonet
2:06:48will stop because it'll use the ethernet
2:06:51technology
2:06:53instead so I guess I want to make sure
2:06:56that we're talking the same same thing
2:06:59okay this project will not affect non
2:07:04911 call
2:07:07Traffic um I'm I'm not that I'm not
2:07:10aware that it will I I my my my
2:07:15understanding is what the impact is to
2:07:17911 and not what the impact might be to
2:07:19other services
2:07:22can you say one way or another whether
2:07:23they'll be impact to other services I
2:07:26can't I don't know I don't
2:07:29know I I guess I W to ask us uh again
2:07:34I'm a lay person no definitely not a
2:07:38subject matter expert but at some point
2:07:40in the call Flow
2:07:42process if a carrier's call is
2:07:47um presented to the Ingress point of the
2:07:51basic emergency service network in
2:07:53analog form right it needs to be
2:07:57converted to IP form correct it does in
2:08:01Colorado's basic emergency service
2:08:03network what does that
2:08:06conversion so um there is a
2:08:11device um that um and this is back to
2:08:15one of your earlier questions you asked
2:08:17about a point of presence or a pop so um
2:08:20there are Lo
2:08:22within Colorado that have been
2:08:24designated as uh aggregation points for
2:08:29that local traffic that non-bp traffic
2:08:31to come in and um the network switches
2:08:35it to these points of presence uh and
2:08:38these gate Gateway devices that are in
2:08:41those points of presence convert that to
2:08:43IP and then it goes into the bsp
2:08:47network okay so that conversion process
2:08:51occurs at one of these points of
2:08:53presence within Colorado correct correct
2:08:56and are there three pairs of those
2:09:00points of presence Denver or excuse me
2:09:03capill
2:09:05Broomfield um that okay so um I know
2:09:09there's more than one I don't know
2:09:11exactly how many there are so uh I I I I
2:09:15wish I had that piece of information I
2:09:16just don't know but the way we design
2:09:19these networks across the country is to
2:09:22have multiple Pops to aggregate OSP
2:09:25traffic because this is OSP traffic
2:09:28aggregate OSP traffic so it be handed
2:09:30off to the
2:09:32911
2:09:37okay so it's OSP traffic not yet
2:09:40identified 911 non 91 it it's been
2:09:44definitely identified as 911 when when
2:09:47somebody comes off hook on their in
2:09:49their home or in the building uh the
2:09:52switch that serves that local Loop seeds
2:09:55the digit dial of 911 and says wow this
2:09:58is a 911 call I'm going to switch it
2:10:01over to the network infrastructure that
2:10:03gets you to the pop so you can get to
2:10:05the 911 Network that's how the
2:10:08origination of a 911 call happens on a
2:10:12on a landline Network okay um for
2:10:16purposes of asking questions so that
2:10:19this is a little bit more clear I do
2:10:20want to offer is exhibit 601 which is in
2:10:24our folder um the contingency plan filed
2:10:28on June 3rd in proceeding 23m
2:10:34o23 236 T and I want to offer it as an
2:10:39exhibit just so I can pull it up and ask
2:10:40this witness questions about it versus
2:10:43take administrative notice of it um and
2:10:46it's a 29 page filing um
2:10:52and I marked it as exhibit
2:10:58601 we would offer exhibit uh 601
2:11:01specifically Pages 24 through
2:11:0628 um and your honor this is the exhibit
2:11:09I I guess I should allow centry link a
2:11:11chance to speak to it this is the
2:11:13exhibit I mentioned that contains the
2:11:15October 2023 FCC audit report in a
2:11:19public filing so it's so it's the same
2:11:22as um hearing exhibit 100 attachment sd1
2:11:28d8c which was filed
2:11:30confidentially I any objection to
2:11:35601 if you Ed to Live Foundation and ask
2:11:37him whether he knows if this if this
2:11:39stuff like that you can or not it's up
2:11:41to
2:11:42you I Jud I guess my issue is like we
2:11:46don't have access to reviewing this
2:11:47document other than just looking at the
2:11:49screen right now I don't there's nothing
2:11:50on we don't we don't we don't have
2:11:53access to 601 do we otherwise I'll send
2:11:56it to you right now Council um I was
2:11:59trying to multitask but give me two
2:12:01seconds and I will send the document to
2:12:03you all
2:12:05Council Miss feder Rico can you kind of
2:12:07like page through this document I just
2:12:10look on the screen and see if that looks
2:12:12okay
2:12:37I did hit send your honor so with if we
2:12:39could have like a 30 second pause for
2:12:41for Council to be able to review that
2:12:44well if you can look on the screen here
2:12:46and figure out from that that's fine but
2:12:49I'll leave it to him if he wants to look
2:12:50at it first or not yeah and is this
2:12:53document being offered confidentially or
2:12:57non-confidential non-confidential SP I
2:12:59know yeah it it is a public F so it's
2:13:06non-confidential just uh if I can just
2:13:09consult with my client rep here I won't
2:13:11talk to the witness just want to talk to
2:13:13Mr conman for a second about
2:13:17this uh I'd also just note for parties
2:13:21um this being live stream so if it is
2:13:24confidential and you need me to take it
2:13:25down you'll have to tell me as soon as
2:13:26you figure it
2:13:29out it was publicly filed I'm thinking
2:13:32is that correct miss omire it was okay
2:13:35so okay I was just letting them know in
2:13:39case they didn't know that we'd have to
2:13:40turn it off yeah no no no yeah no I
2:13:43appreciate
2:13:44it thanks for everyone's assistance and
2:13:46patience on that and no we don't we have
2:13:48no objection okay 601 shall be admitted
2:13:51and mire I will give you a heads up
2:13:53warning we are 17 minutes away from the
2:13:55top of the hour when we'll be taking our
2:13:57break so uh plan your questions
2:14:00accordingly thank you H um if we could
2:14:03go to the preceding page page 28 of this
2:14:06exhibit
2:14:09601 can you tell me what these are the
2:14:12911 service areas are those the points
2:14:15of presence you were
2:14:19dising um uh I'm um I I'm not
2:14:24understanding them to be the points of
2:14:25presence but to be the the geographic
2:14:28area um well I honestly I'm not sure the
2:14:32I'm not sure the use of this particular
2:14:34word 911 service area here I assume I'm
2:14:37assuming the geographic areas I
2:14:40recognize the names of the places so
2:14:42Geographic areas within u in the state
2:14:45have been giving a designation of a of a
2:14:47service area okay you know what network
2:14:50monitoring occurs in those particular
2:14:52Geographic
2:14:53areas uh I I would anticipate the the
2:14:56network monitoring that we do you know
2:14:59across the board okay and do you know
2:15:02where in the explanation of alternative
2:15:04measure for network monitoring uh what
2:15:07is meant by Sonet hyphen groom in the
2:15:13middle uh I I would assume that is as I
2:15:16mentioned before grooming process is
2:15:18looking at the network and saying it is
2:15:21there movement that we want to do within
2:15:22the network of circuits across different
2:15:25systems that this is a grooming U uh
2:15:28measure taken on a Sonet
2:15:32system okay but we're getting rid of the
2:15:34Sonet system correct in you're under
2:15:37your
2:15:38project uh for the 47 yeah for the 47 P
2:15:41apps that we talked about um we would
2:15:44take those um those connections off the
2:15:48um um off the son system and put on
2:15:53ethernet and then let's just review this
2:15:56document while we have it up could we
2:15:57please go to page uh
2:16:0227 um and we'll have to to blow this up
2:16:06a little bit
2:16:08more is this the circuit diversity page
2:16:12so I I mean because of the size of it I
2:16:15mean I can blow it up but you're going
2:16:17going to have to tell me which you know
2:16:18piece you want me to focus on because
2:16:20otherwise you won't won't see the whole
2:16:21screen certainly um let's just focus on
2:16:24the the very beginning the upper left
2:16:26quadrant
2:16:29please thank you that's uh more vable so
2:16:37um oh I apologize this is this is the
2:16:40one that relates to um Network backup
2:16:43power
2:16:49correct Mr Carson oh um I I'm assuming
2:16:55this is the output of the FCC audit
2:16:58correct correct there's a title on it if
2:17:00we scroll up a little bit yeah I didn't
2:17:03see that so
2:17:05um yeah I it has you're you're right
2:17:09this is a section that talks about
2:17:11battery backup okay if we could please
2:17:13go to page 24 of this
2:17:15exhibit uh 106 or excuse me
2:17:19601 um if you see the header there it's
2:17:21the 2024 contingency plan October
2:17:252023 uh FCC audit results do you see
2:17:29that I see that okay and so then under
2:17:32the columns we've got pep name the
2:17:36county and uh reasons not fully
2:17:39Diversified there correct right so
2:17:42within this chart you're saying we
2:17:44should be able to identify the 47 P apps
2:17:46that will be um have this common point
2:17:50of failure at Denver main removed
2:17:52correct no what I I wasn't referencing
2:17:56the the FCC audit I was referencing the
2:17:59the the table that was provided that had
2:18:02all of the P apps uh that were going to
2:18:05be impacted by the ethernet upgrade um
2:18:08the and I think 81 or 82 I don't know
2:18:12the EXA I don't recall the exact amount
2:18:14within that count are the 47 but I don't
2:18:17know that it's noted specifically which
2:18:21ones are the ones that are out of uh
2:18:24Denver mate I just don't have that
2:18:26information okay so we can't tell from
2:18:29this
2:18:30document not that I'm aware of okay but
2:18:33in
2:18:37the the
2:18:39um ninth column describe alternative
2:18:44measures uh taken uh do you see that
2:18:47column I see that and the Adams County
2:18:50Communication Center Sonet build and
2:18:52groom CG circuits are logically
2:18:57diverse
2:18:59um groom reroute additional circuits did
2:19:02you see that entry yeah I see that okay
2:19:06with respect to this FCC audit and that
2:19:09lack of diversity that's been in
2:19:11existence um since the beginning of
2:19:14these FCC audits in 2016 roughly
2:19:18correct um
2:19:21uh well I I haven't seen all the audits
2:19:23so I can't say for sure but I I would
2:19:25imagine that this the the system that's
2:19:28reference here for this p app um has
2:19:30been in place for a
2:19:32while and using Sonet if it has Sonet it
2:19:35means it's old right yeah I would
2:19:37imagine so I think that's a I think
2:19:40that's accurate okay with the Sona
2:19:43upgrade are you going to be able to get
2:19:44rid of Legacy Network
2:19:46gateways
2:19:48no and again where are those Legacy
2:19:50Network Gateway is
2:19:52located um a legacy Network Gateway is
2:19:56um uh located at the pop it's the it's
2:20:00the uh uh architecture that um converts
2:20:05uh TDM traffic to IP to go into the the
2:20:08bsp
2:20:09network you said the LGs are located at
2:20:12the pop that's my understanding that's
2:20:14where they're located I I that's my
2:20:17understanding yes
2:20:21um the application describes a common
2:20:24point of failure at Denver Maine and I
2:20:26want to ask you specifically has there
2:20:28been such a denver-based
2:20:31failure in Colorado not that I'm aware
2:20:33of no
2:20:54so it's accurate to say that there is if
2:20:56there is no Sonet calls don't have to go
2:20:58through Denver
2:21:02Maine I'm not sure what you mean by a
2:21:04Sonic
2:21:05call Sonet technology if there's no
2:21:08Sonet technology involved in the
2:21:11transport of that call then they the
2:21:14call won't have to go through Denver
2:21:16main um what I would well what I would
2:21:20say is taking
2:21:22it getting off the Sonet system for
2:21:25those 47 piece apps and going to
2:21:27ethernet puts the 911 traffic on a
2:21:30completely different architecture with
2:21:33the benefits that come the mesh type
2:21:35architecture that comes from um uh from
2:21:38ethernet so you have different routing
2:21:41options in that meshed environment that
2:21:43you don't have in a Sonet which is a
2:21:46point-to-point type of
2:21:48architecture now yeah
2:21:51yeah so the answer is ethernet means all
2:21:55calls won't have to go through Denver
2:21:56main for those 47 P apps e ethernet
2:21:59means the calls will take a different
2:22:01routing path than they did before um
2:22:05call Flow diagrams for those 47 pups
2:22:08engineering call Flow diagrams to show
2:22:11the
2:22:12impact uh I'm those documents haven't
2:22:15been prepared
2:22:23how much
2:22:24um well let's strike that
2:22:47um do you have selective router in the
2:22:53EET so um
2:22:57um the the phrase selective router
2:23:00generally speaking is a a phrase used to
2:23:03describe the 911 switching that um has
2:23:07happened in the past when we uh deployed
2:23:10the EET in Colorado we went from a
2:23:14selective rou or to a nexton course
2:23:17Services platform that does the routing
2:23:21function so the EET is actually the
2:23:24network connectivity that connects the
2:23:27next gen core Services routing
2:23:28architecture to the paaps so um if you
2:23:33mean are we doing selective routing like
2:23:36was done before the EET no we don't do
2:23:39that anymore because now we use an next
2:23:41in core Services architecture that does
2:23:44that routing
2:23:45function and so there's a is there a
2:23:47functional equivalent to a selective
2:23:49router
2:23:51um at at a very high level there's a
2:23:54functional equipment but the
2:23:55capabilities of next gen cor services
2:23:58are 10x more robust than a legacy
2:24:01selected
2:24:04rou um with respect to the next
2:24:06generation core Services capability that
2:24:09you
2:24:11described is where is that process
2:24:14taking
2:24:16place so we work with um a company
2:24:19called intrado
2:24:21and we one of our suppliers and we use
2:24:24their uh next and cor Services
2:24:26applications that are housing their data
2:24:29centers and where are their data
2:24:31centers um one's in Longmont I think the
2:24:35other one is in Miami but I don't I'm
2:24:37not 100% sure on that okay do the
2:24:41phrases um Anglewood in
2:24:45Miami could be yeah that sounds right
2:24:48but I don't know for sure
2:24:53um in the application it says ethernet
2:24:57can reduce Transportation costs how
2:25:03so um so I think you have to look at
2:25:05this um use of Technology over time so
2:25:11um when you look at what we have in
2:25:13place now the the network connectivity
2:25:16that connects to the P apps we're using
2:25:19TDM technology I'm division multiplexing
2:25:23T1 technology that is end of life in
2:25:26many situations it's getting more
2:25:28expensive so to continue on with a TDM
2:25:32technology means uh costs are going to
2:25:34go up over time um the future for this
2:25:38kind of Architecture is ethernet um
2:25:41ethernet is um um over time is going to
2:25:45be a less costly solution because it's
2:25:47more broadly used um TDM
2:25:51technology is being phased out across
2:25:52the country um and which means there's
2:25:55going to be less and less use of it so
2:25:57the cost of it's going to be higher and
2:25:59higher for the equipment if if new
2:26:01equipment is needed so um um uh if you
2:26:05look at ethernet going forward over a
2:26:07range of time it's going to be a cheaper
2:26:09technology for the state okay and again
2:26:13that TDM technology is not 911 specific
2:26:16it's it's
2:26:17all um correct that technology is used
2:26:22everywhere um the application specific
2:26:25to paaps in Colorado though is TDM at
2:26:27this
2:26:29point
2:26:30um and you have not accounted for any
2:26:33reduction in transportation costs in the
2:26:37costs being proposed for this project
2:26:41correct so
2:26:44um it's probably transport costs is
2:26:46probably the right phrase um but um
2:26:50there's um um we're not we're not
2:26:54anticipating the like in in right now
2:26:57we're not anticipating the cost for our
2:26:59ethernet proposal to go down partially
2:27:03because part of our project is to uh is
2:27:06to engage with thirdparty providers GTE
2:27:10Comcast as examples to provide a diverse
2:27:14circuit to the psap so we increase the
2:27:17resiliency that comes at a uh at
2:27:20increased cost and um there are some
2:27:23Network C there are some equipment costs
2:27:25that are required to uh take the
2:27:29circuits that we have in place today to
2:27:31the PS from TDM to ethernet so there are
2:27:34some some costs there so um we've not
2:27:38modeled it to go down we've modeled it
2:27:40to go marginally up but not not not a
2:27:44whole lot and I understand that we'll
2:27:47actually look at the specific details of
2:27:49the costing but what I'm saying is
2:27:50you're not reducing the current cost
2:27:54charged under the Tariff for getting rid
2:27:57of Sonet and that reduction in
2:27:58transportation costs you're not
2:28:00accounting for it
2:28:02true because we're not reducing any
2:28:05costs but you're getting rid of Sonet
2:28:07which reduces Transportation costs well
2:28:10we're not going to use we're not going
2:28:12to use Sonet for for 911 which means the
2:28:16the cost associated with 911 uh will
2:28:19change
2:28:20because Legacy is Saed the future is
2:28:23going to be uh ethernet so it it but
2:28:27there's no there's no reduction in costs
2:28:29immediately for that we're just going on
2:28:32to a different network uh technology
2:28:34okay and that different network
2:28:36technology that ethernet in your
2:28:39application exhibit 100 attachment SD 1C
2:28:44at page 14 revision one and we don't
2:28:47need to pull it up unless you want to
2:28:49look at the statement but it's says
2:28:51provide the the ethernet provide will be
2:28:54providing an increased capacity creating
2:28:56an overall benefit to the EET and the
2:28:58growth opportunities for new services
2:29:01and features correct correct so there's
2:29:04an incentive to do this so that more
2:29:08services and features can be offered
2:29:11correct um that that's a great question
2:29:15um and it really gets to the heart of
2:29:17what next Generation 911 is all about
2:29:20out you know this this IND the industry
2:29:23transformation that's going on that I
2:29:25know staff is very tuned into um that
2:29:29this journey into the future is to have
2:29:32Broadband networks in place so more data
2:29:35can be sent to First Responders and uh
2:29:39the the TDM architecture that we have
2:29:41today just simply won't enable that so
2:29:45while our proposal is targeted towards
2:29:47improving Network resiliency in it also
2:29:50has the consequence of increasing the
2:29:52capacity of the network going to the pep
2:29:55so as new data is made available to 911
2:30:00it can ride across that Network
2:30:02infrastructure so um and these are all
2:30:04services that are are are dedicated 100%
2:30:08to
2:30:10911 um in your answer you mentioned
2:30:13staff is very tuned into that when you
2:30:15say staff are you talking about
2:30:16commission
2:30:17staff um I I guess when I say staff I
2:30:20reference um you know Jennifer in
2:30:23particular um you know I I have a chance
2:30:25to work with folks who are 911
2:30:27leadership roles across the country and
2:30:29it's these individuals who are tasked
2:30:32with taking their communities into the
2:30:34future and that's what NextGen 911 does
2:30:37it looks at Network architecture and
2:30:39says we we want it to be resilient we
2:30:42want it to be uh um as as powerful as
2:30:45possible but at the same time we want to
2:30:48build a future where First Responders
2:30:50get the information that they need and
2:30:52that gets enabled through Broadband
2:30:55networks what we are recommending in
2:30:57this ethernet project is to is to put in
2:31:01place without a lot of extra cost a a uh
2:31:07a Broadband Network for 911 to use and
2:31:10so in your answer you you said Jennifer
2:31:12are you referring to uh commission staff
2:31:14Jennifer Kirland yes I am I'm sorry I
2:31:16should have been more specific yeah all
2:31:19righty time out so my we we have hit the
2:31:2311 o'clock Mark and so in order for me
2:31:26to uh not have my staff throw things at
2:31:28me later today uh we're going to take
2:31:31our lunch break now Mr Carlson I know
2:31:33you've got to be incredibly happy will
2:31:34be taking a lunch break now I do think
2:31:36Mr Doos owes you a lunch or at least a
2:31:39we've uh we've already covered that
2:31:41ground we've already covered that ground
2:31:43I I believe so I think that's very mean
2:31:45of him to do that to you but uh we'll
2:31:47take a lunch break now thank you for
2:31:48taking it early I appreciate appreciate
2:31:50it um we'll be in recess until I'm going
2:31:52to say
2:31:5212:15 thank and and and I I'll make one
2:31:55other point before before we leave um
2:31:57it's my understanding that exhibit 110 I
2:32:00believe what it was called is all set to
2:32:03go so we might want to start um we come
2:32:06back with uh introducing 110 and then
2:32:08getting that admitted um for any cross-
2:32:10examination that might come from that so
2:32:13um you're honor is that available to
2:32:16council I
2:32:18it I going to say could you want to send
2:32:20it to her right now or okay you do that
2:32:23so you have a lunch to look at but um
2:32:25and so you can take a look at that but
2:32:26we'll take care of that housekeeping
2:32:28matter when we first start otherwise
2:32:30have a fine lunch we'll be back in about
2:32:31an hour and 15 minutes thank you thank
2:32:48you
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3:45:55all right sorry about that know I was
3:45:57forgetting something um all right uh
3:46:01Tracy you can can hear me I can hear you
3:46:04Trac Tracy cor
3:46:07reporter sorry about that all right uh
3:46:12we will go back on the record
3:46:15uh Mr with the preceding number 23
3:46:20a-01
3:46:2297t uh Mr Carlson I hope you had a good
3:46:24lunch hope you made a mean phone call uh
3:46:28to people who should be here and uh I
3:46:32will remind you that you are still under
3:46:33oath and I understand alrighty um and
3:46:38and Miss old we'll get back to you in
3:46:40just a moment let's take care of uh
3:46:42getting that last that final exhibit
3:46:44entered evidence and then we'll go back
3:46:45to the Cross examination okay thanks
3:46:48judge okay um Mr Carlson when we had uh
3:46:52we were doing your direct testimony a
3:46:54little earlier I believe you had
3:46:55indicated that you had one change to one
3:46:57of the exhibits that you had submitted
3:46:59with your testimony is that correct
3:47:01that's correct okay um can I ask uh um
3:47:06uh that exhibit 110 be displayed please
3:47:17um can you tell us what exhibit 110
3:47:19represents um it shows the calculations
3:47:23that um uh get to the MRC rate for the
3:47:27ethernet monthly tariff charge okay and
3:47:31I know we haven't verbally talked much
3:47:32about this but can you can you explain
3:47:34the difference between the the
3:47:36non-recurring ethernet charges and the
3:47:38monthly recurring charges sure um um the
3:47:43the the non-recurring charges are uh
3:47:46charges that are up front that are for
3:47:49uh uh any any fiber installation that's
3:47:53required to a paap or uh or and the
3:47:56equipment the optical equipment needed
3:47:59um at the premise of the of the of the
3:48:02of the pp location that would be either
3:48:05equipment that we're required to put in
3:48:07place or if we're working with a third
3:48:09party that they would require the the
3:48:11MRC the monthly recurring charge which
3:48:14is reflected here are are costs that are
3:48:17ongoing in nature uh they are the cost
3:48:19of providing the
3:48:20service okay and um uh you had indicated
3:48:26that this exhibit 110 is is an update is
3:48:28this is this an update of what was
3:48:30previously I think attached to exhibit
3:48:34um 100 as
3:48:39sd-3 yes okay and um what update did uh
3:48:44did you main again why the the the Top
3:48:47Line total cost of Last Mile transport
3:48:49went down a little bit there were U some
3:48:53changes to the the cost um uh
3:48:56calculations that were done that that
3:48:58cost calculation done at all the piz up
3:49:02locations that are um in question here
3:49:06and so there were some some minor
3:49:08changes to that that reduced the overall
3:49:10cost so that's what we're passing
3:49:12through here okay and did did and then
3:49:15what's the the bottom number 24 25 what
3:49:19does that represent um that represents a
3:49:22monthly recurring cost that would be
3:49:23added into the Tariff um um per
3:49:26concurrent call
3:49:28session okay i' asked to move into
3:49:33evidence exhibit
3:49:34110 any objection to
3:49:38110 not hearing any one0 shall be
3:49:40admitted okay uh thank you your honor
3:49:44and uh this point I would uh tender
3:49:46again uh Mr Carlson to continue his
3:49:49cross all right Mar go right ahead uh
3:49:53I'd like to pick up where we just left
3:49:55off Mr Carlson so can we have exhibit
3:49:57110
3:49:59displayed and I just want to point out
3:50:01for the record that I believe that was
3:50:03supposed to be a confidential exhibit
3:50:04but it has been displayed already so I
3:50:07don't think I'm violating any commission
3:50:09Rules by asking that the same exhibit
3:50:12that Council just reviewed uh public
3:50:15be displayed
3:50:17again that's right and just to clear the
3:50:19record I I had communicated uh uh with M
3:50:23Fred Rico that we were not displaying
3:50:25this confidentially so there there's no
3:50:26issue with that okay thank you um Mr
3:50:31Carlson with respect to exhibit
3:50:34110
3:50:37um the concurrent session count the
3:50:40second to the last row uses the number
3:50:42600 do you see that
3:50:45I do so to get to the
3:50:49$24.25 for the increase to the monthly
3:50:52recurring charge per concurrent session
3:50:55you divided the number
3:50:5814,557 by 600 correct that's correct if
3:51:03we use the number 623 the actual number
3:51:07of concurrent sessions uh sold under
3:51:10tariff 25 right now that number
3:51:13decreases
3:51:15correct the math would produce that
3:51:18result yes okay and do you have any
3:51:20reason to dispute my representation that
3:51:22if you divide that number by 623 you get
3:51:25$23 36 no dispute no dispute
3:51:30okay um and that
3:51:33$233
3:51:35uh6 or
3:51:37$24.25 that is not in exhibit
3:51:42101 attachment sd4 for page two which we
3:51:46looked at previously which is the
3:51:48increase over 24 months to the
3:51:51MRC up to
3:51:53$310
3:51:55186
3:51:57correct correct we're using different
3:51:59concurrent session counts whether it's
3:52:01the build projects or the uh ethernet
3:52:05upgrade so what you're proposing is that
3:52:08the governing bodies in Colorado pay an
3:52:11increase based on the pro proposed
3:52:13projects of an MRC of
3:52:1933 some
3:52:21dollars
3:52:23correct well
3:52:25the O overall there's no change to all
3:52:28the governing bodies it's the same
3:52:30amount that you're you're recovering
3:52:34when you change the denominator
3:52:35obviously it it changes the the rate for
3:52:38the con current session but overall the
3:52:40amounts the
3:52:41same I'm asking you under tariff
3:52:4525 what will the monthly recurring
3:52:48charge total for all these projects be
3:52:51will it be the $310 186 if all of those
3:52:55projects are approved on a 24mon basis
3:52:59or will it be over
3:53:01$330 per concurrent session per
3:53:06month um so
3:53:12the the overall charge will be a
3:53:14combination of um the the calculation
3:53:18that we did for the MRC for the build
3:53:20projects and the MRC for the ethernet
3:53:24monthly charge here can we please put up
3:53:27exhibit 101 attachment sd4 page
3:53:43two thank you
3:53:45so I just want to make sure I understand
3:53:46your testimony correctly Mr car
3:53:50uh I'm drawing a blank is it
3:53:53Carlson you got it you got it my sincere
3:53:56apologies no no worries no worries um
3:54:01you're saying on the bottom chart when
3:54:03we're looking at 623 concurrent sessions
3:54:06over a 24mon recovery period there will
3:54:09be a tariff charge per concurrent
3:54:12session per month of
3:54:16$108
3:54:18plus a charge as reflected in exhibit
3:54:24110 correct that's correct that's
3:54:27correct and I would only note that the
3:54:29charge we're looking at now the 310
3:54:31would assume 24 months of those
3:54:34charges uh the the the $24 25 cent
3:54:39charge would would continue on past two
3:54:42years yes the exhibit 10 amount would go
3:54:45on
3:54:46indefinitely as long as we incur the
3:54:48cost yes okay and you understand staff
3:54:52has objected to that proposal correct I
3:54:57understand with respect to Sonet let's
3:55:00go back just to Big Picture stuffs um if
3:55:02I understood your testimony earlier
3:55:04correctly Sonet is old it's bad it's
3:55:06Legacy technology it needs to go away
3:55:09period
3:55:11correct um it it you're right it's a
3:55:14legacy technology that will phase out
3:55:16over time yes excellent and I just need
3:55:19short answers so we can keep moving here
3:55:21EET it's good it's the I think you
3:55:24called it the standard into the future
3:55:26correct correct so Century Link needs to
3:55:29transition off of Sonet as a company for
3:55:32all of its customers
3:55:34correct over time I would expect that
3:55:37and it can sell additional services like
3:55:39internet and voice over internet
3:55:42increases capacity faster speed all
3:55:44those good things correct those would be
3:55:47one of the benefits yes with respect to
3:55:50the application here you state on
3:55:52exhibit 100 the actual second amended
3:55:55application which is attachment
3:55:58SD uh-1c on page 10 revision one that a
3:56:03few locations have begun this conversion
3:56:06process however no charges have been
3:56:09assessed can you explain uh what are the
3:56:12locations that have begun the conver
3:56:15process um I I don't have the list of
3:56:18the locations
3:56:19specifically um committed to memory so I
3:56:23can't specifically answer that um I I
3:56:26would tell you that they are locations
3:56:28where it was determined there was an
3:56:30immediate need uh for um an upgrade to
3:56:34happen and so um we uh moved forward uh
3:56:38with a sense of urgency you cannot
3:56:41recall one of the locations that had
3:56:44this immediate need I I don't have the
3:56:46list in front of me
3:56:48no and um you can't say how many there
3:56:50are six
3:56:54okay um and what was the immediate
3:56:57need um I I don't know specifically the
3:57:00situation there would have been some uh
3:57:02performance of the of the equipment or
3:57:04the the technology there that um was uh
3:57:08such that we need to take immediate
3:57:13action with respect to those um uh six
3:57:17they have not been charged for that
3:57:19immediate need that was addressed
3:57:22correct not yet but they're included in
3:57:24our cost estimates here correct are they
3:57:27on an auto augment
3:57:29program um I'm not sure what you mean by
3:57:31an auto
3:57:33augment um we're going to look at the
3:57:36the project then specifically as
3:57:37presented in the amended plan and we're
3:57:39going to review some Concepts in there
3:57:41but I want to talk about that amended
3:57:43plan which again is um hearing exhibit
3:57:48100 attachment sd1
3:57:51Das
3:57:53c
3:57:54um you would agree with me upon your
3:57:57review of that that there's no mention
3:58:00in the second amended application of
3:58:01last M diversity
3:58:04true correct that was something added
3:58:07later um and why was it
3:58:11omitted I I I don't know why it was
3:58:13omitted we um U went through a process
3:58:16of internal evaluations and um um uh
3:58:21asked a broader set of individuals to be
3:58:23a part of that on our side and it was
3:58:25determined that this needed to be added
3:58:27to the to the
3:58:28proposal at the time the second amended
3:58:31application was submitted in February of
3:58:332024 Century Link already possessed
3:58:36quotes for the 27 fiber builds that um
3:58:41it's proposing quotes from Comcast and
3:58:43GT
3:58:45correct um I'm not sure when we got
3:58:47those
3:58:49quotes if I showed you a copy would that
3:58:52help refresh your
3:58:54memory that's fine well you can show me
3:58:57a copy of it since I don't know you're
3:58:58not really refreshing my memory okay um
3:59:01I would offer exhibits uh 602 and
3:59:07603 I can only show one at a time so
3:59:10what should I start with first let's do
3:59:12602 and I will email these to council
3:59:14right
3:59:16now um this says it's
3:59:21confidential um so whatever nature is
3:59:24needed um I think it's this the last
3:59:27pages that are
3:59:30confidential I can't answer that for you
3:59:33um if it's confidential and you want to
3:59:34show something confidential I have to
3:59:37there's some steps we have to take I
3:59:38have to turn off the stream um you'll
3:59:40have to tell me which people who are in
3:59:41the zoom are allowed to see it
3:59:44um so it's it's a question for you more
3:59:47than me okay um I think it's important
3:59:50to address this and we might as well do
3:59:52it now while they're they're up um so
3:59:55can we stop the stream and I can review
3:59:58these with um all parties on in Zoom
4:00:02have signed ndas that does going to be
4:00:04my first question is there anyone in
4:00:05here who has not signed an
4:00:09NDA if they haven't they should leave
4:00:12right now
4:00:15uh so judge I'll I'll get started on
4:00:18that it's probably gon to it's going to
4:00:19take me a few minutes to get everything
4:00:21set up I I'll let you know when I'm when
4:00:23I'm ready okay well hang on um have
4:00:26missar you haven't sent this to centur
4:00:27link this do they do you have cop do you
4:00:30have copies of this centry link have
4:00:33copies of this uh not marked your your
4:00:35honor not yet I'm still waiting I'm sure
4:00:37I have copies of it because I think we
4:00:39I'm G to say if you want to take a look
4:00:40at it and see if you think that there is
4:00:42something that's confidential I mean
4:00:44I'm assuming it's one of your documents
4:00:47yeah I think it's customer I'm guessing
4:00:49if I'm anticipating from the questions
4:00:51I'm guessing it's quotes that we
4:00:52received from uh third parties that I
4:00:55think we had promised the third parties
4:00:57that we would maintain in conference we
4:00:59had okay so okay yeah it's it's
4:01:02confidential information that really
4:01:03belongs to third parties you know bids
4:01:06um and I think it belongs to them um and
4:01:08we had we had agreed to maintain the
4:01:10confidentiality of their pricing when we
4:01:13obtained uh this now obviously we yeah
4:01:16so that's that's that we're going to
4:01:18have to we're going to have to maintain
4:01:19the confidentiality around that I'm
4:01:21sorry okay okay M Federico if you can sh
4:01:25us off the stream perfect um and you
4:01:27said everybody in here is okay to stay
4:01:30right as far as I know if if there's
4:01:32anyone who has not signed an NDA um for
4:01:35this information they are to leave I
4:01:37don't see a whole lot of people in here
4:01:39so um
4:01:57there
4:01:58okay um we're done with confidential
4:02:01exhibits may I proceed hang on I'm
4:02:04trying to make sure the stream is up
4:02:05I'll let you know as soon as it's ready
4:02:07okay thank you
4:02:15Mr Snider is there a way that you can
4:02:17just show Mr
4:02:21Carlson no
4:02:24well maybe you know I mean uh if I turn
4:02:28the camera off you'll see the entire
4:02:31um
4:02:33room um that's fine I just thought it'd
4:02:36be easier to see his face but that's
4:02:37okay
4:02:41yeah I go back I take take
4:02:45spot and I'm ready on my
4:02:47end okay thank you um I want to go back
4:02:52to um exhibit 101 attachment
4:02:56sd4 revision
4:02:582 page three this is a public
4:03:11document page three yes
4:03:16so we were just reviewing the costs
4:03:18associated with the proposed project for
4:03:20the ethernet upgrade that's the fourth
4:03:23column here correct right correct and we
4:03:26looked and found the $1.76 million total
4:03:30correct right and then um there's uh 6%
4:03:36overhead added and then the capital
4:03:38costs correct correct those amounts were
4:03:42not included in the original application
4:03:44true no they weren't okay and The Last
4:03:48Mile diversity wasn't included in the
4:03:51original application true
4:03:57correct I do not recall can you explain
4:04:01why Last Mile diversity wasn't um
4:04:05included in the original second amended
4:04:07application yeah I just want to make
4:04:09sure real quickly because I now I got
4:04:11into this case late but I think there's
4:04:13been three applications has this been
4:04:15amended twice is that correct mean when
4:04:17you say the original application I just
4:04:19want to know which one we're talking
4:04:20about yeah um thank you judge um so
4:04:24there is the original application in
4:04:252023 that was
4:04:27withdrawn I'm referring to the amended
4:04:30application filed on February 15
4:04:352024 and that substantively similar to
4:04:39the second amended application that is
4:04:41an exhibit which referred references to
4:04:44Lumen removed them okay so so when
4:04:47you're talking about the original
4:04:48application you're talking about what
4:04:50could be number two not the original one
4:04:53filed back in 2023 exactly the first one
4:04:56filed in 202 okay thank you thank
4:05:00you so my question to you Mr Carlson was
4:05:03why didn't sentury link explain that the
4:05:06ethernet upgrade project came with Last
4:05:09Mile diversity to the 911 stakeholders
4:05:12when it filed its amended application on
4:05:15February 15
4:05:182024 um I I wasn't a part of the the
4:05:22filing and so um I I don't know why it
4:05:26wasn't included at that
4:05:28time are the costs associated with the e
4:05:31or net upgrade firm
4:05:34costs um there there are best estimate
4:05:37of what we think the costs are so
4:05:40they're cost based on our experience on
4:05:42our pricing model models um so they're
4:05:45they're solid
4:05:48estimates
4:05:49okay
4:06:07um you agree that with respect to um
4:06:16the direct testimony filed May 10th
4:06:192024 that's when the last M diversity
4:06:22piece was first explained to the um
4:06:26parties to this proceeding
4:06:31correct
4:06:38um yes okay that's Che the date I uh I
4:06:43feel ask with respect to the
4:06:44conversations with stakeholders that
4:06:47preceded the filing in February of 2024
4:06:50Last Mile diversity had been part of
4:06:52those conversations
4:06:54correct I wasn't a part of the
4:06:56conversations um and so uh I I I can't
4:07:00say specifically whether they were in
4:07:01there or not but uh um um so I'm not
4:07:06sure whether they were or not okay you
4:07:08defer to the actual uh
4:07:11testimony refers to things discussed
4:07:14correct right no I I agree with that
4:07:18okay um in that direct testimony which
4:07:22is exhibit 100 which is a public
4:07:24document if we could go to page exhibit
4:07:27100 at page nine
4:08:03um at lines excuse me 6 through eight it
4:08:07indicates
4:08:09that uh the costs included in the plan
4:08:12did not reflect the the ethernet upgrade
4:08:14would also include a diverse Last Mile
4:08:17connection to 62p apps utilizing another
4:08:21carriers Network that would be managed
4:08:24by Lumen is that an accurate
4:08:27statement yes and uh who's the other
4:08:32carrier uh it would be either Comcast or
4:08:39GTE and so they are providing ongoing
4:08:42services
4:08:45or I'm sorry
4:08:47Lumen Lumen would be providing ongoing
4:08:50services so um yes what what uh Comcast
4:08:56and GTE are providing is the underlying
4:08:59connectivity with their uh fiber
4:09:03facilities what we are providing is a
4:09:05service that goes across it so we're
4:09:08able to um uh have that diversification
4:09:12but still control over the
4:09:16services and with respect to that
4:09:18diversification if I understood you
4:09:20correctly you don't know if that diverse
4:09:22last mile is physically and
4:09:24geographically
4:09:27diverse
4:09:29um I I I don't have the information on
4:09:32exactly where the routes go the Sentry
4:09:34Link route and the third party route
4:09:38whether they're
4:09:40um what what paths they take I don't
4:09:42know that
4:09:44and with respect to this management by
4:09:46Lumen is Lumen being compensated or or
4:09:49which Lumen entity are you is being
4:09:51referred to
4:09:53there
4:09:55um Lumen would seek to have our cost
4:09:58recovered via the the Tariff item that
4:10:00we're proposing that would be the the
4:10:02compensation okay so Lumen there refers
4:10:05to Quest Corporation the BP
4:10:13uh I I you know I'm um I'm not
4:10:17completely clear on the affiliate um um
4:10:22names and you know which legal entities
4:10:25come at play uh in certain situations so
4:10:29um you know uh U that that would sound
4:10:33reasonable to me but I I I don't know
4:10:35for sure to be
4:10:37honest so as you sit here today you
4:10:40don't know if part of the analys is for
4:10:44the total cost for the ethernet upgrade
4:10:47project includes costs that the
4:10:51BP might be paying to an affiliate you
4:10:54just don't know as you sit here
4:10:57today is that
4:11:00correct
4:11:02um I know that
4:11:05um I know that in this case um uh will
4:11:10be build by these third party providers
4:11:12so
4:11:13um those um th those costs would come to
4:11:17you know the the legal entity that's
4:11:19contracted with those third party
4:11:21providers I know that um um kind of the
4:11:25um um internal uh relationship between
4:11:29the various legal entities of of lumen
4:11:32that's not my expertise okay um but but
4:11:35the costs come in and um to to the Lumen
4:11:39organization and um um we're seeking
4:11:44the the Tariff item to recover those
4:11:47costs okay you used a interesting phrase
4:11:51the legal entity Contracting with
4:11:53thirdparty
4:11:55providers
4:11:56um with respect to exhibit 602 which is
4:12:01confidential there was a client named
4:12:04there do you recall the name of that
4:12:06client yes or I don't I
4:12:09don't
4:12:12um and you don't have a copy of exhibit
4:12:15602 handy I don't want to display it
4:12:17because it's
4:12:18confidential um
4:12:22but if it's a centry link affiliate and
4:12:26not Quest Corporation what's the
4:12:29significance that an affiliate is the
4:12:32legal entity Contracting with the third
4:12:34party provider uh I'm not sure the
4:12:37significance of
4:12:38that and you're not sure that affiliate
4:12:41is somehow being compensated through
4:12:43this Improvement plan process in
4:12:45addition to what quest is being
4:12:50compensated uh in addition there's no
4:12:52double compensation if that's the
4:12:54question I'm not sure I understand your
4:13:02question there is no fee that Quest
4:13:05would have to pay to the affiliate for
4:13:06the affiliate being a the client
4:13:09Contracting with the third
4:13:11party so
4:13:13um the the the area of affiliate
4:13:16transactions at Lumen is not my area of
4:13:18expertise so uh I'm I I really I really
4:13:22don't know okay I'm gonna ask a late
4:13:25person
4:13:27question with respect to the
4:13:30current Last Mile connections there
4:13:33there is no PF in Colorado that
4:13:36has um primary and a secondary
4:13:40connection for the last mile true
4:13:45um they have today they have um uh uh
4:13:50two connections the connections are
4:13:52provided by Lumen um we we provide a
4:13:56service called MLS across those those
4:13:59Bond ones to those locations but they're
4:14:02so there uh there is a level of
4:14:05resiliency that you get with one
4:14:06provider sorry could you say that again
4:14:09the fbl across the bonded T1 did you say
4:14:14I apologize um today we delivered two
4:14:20circuits to each piece app location but
4:14:23Lumen provides both we use a technology
4:14:26called
4:14:28Ms and um that does provide a level of
4:14:32resiliency because it's two separate
4:14:35circuits but uh we will enhance that
4:14:37resiliency by having those circuits
4:14:40provided by two separate carriers and or
4:14:43two separate physical
4:14:49circuits
4:14:53okay is the
4:14:56Sonet is removing
4:14:59sonnet related to the ethernet well let
4:15:03me strike it let me say it this
4:15:07way for the diverse paths being proposed
4:15:11for this last mile divers the Comcast
4:15:13and
4:15:15gtt there's no ethernet upgrade needed
4:15:18for those
4:15:21true
4:15:22[Music]
4:15:24um those are ethernet connections aren't
4:15:27they you can
4:15:32um you can order you can get another
4:15:35ciruit from a third provider and run a
4:15:38T1 across it you could do that okay but
4:15:41there would be no reason to do that why
4:15:43we're going to ethernet it would be
4:15:45taking a half step forward instead of
4:15:47taking three giant leaps there's no
4:15:50reason that the um Comcast connection
4:15:53which is an ethernet connection can't
4:15:55become the primary connection for that p
4:15:57app is there well we have to be able to
4:16:00manage the service so we're not going to
4:16:01buy Ethernet from Comcast we'll buy the
4:16:05underlying connectivity and then manage
4:16:08the service ourselves so our knock has
4:16:10visibility to the to the p so we have
4:16:13control over the over the network is
4:16:17ethernet
4:16:19connectivity uh so um
4:16:24um connectivity at like at a starting
4:16:27point is the the physical thing that
4:16:29makes a connection so fiber is what
4:16:31we're talking about here it's a physical
4:16:34connection from one point to the other
4:16:37what you run across that physical
4:16:39connection are services so ethernet is a
4:16:42service it's called a switching
4:16:44service um um on you can also pair that
4:16:48with IP which is a routing service but
4:16:51they all run across a physical
4:16:53connection so you could run ethernet
4:16:56over
4:16:57copper um but you wouldn't get much
4:17:00bandwidth because there's not very much
4:17:02bandwidth with copper fiber gives you
4:17:05that reliability and gives you that
4:17:08bandwidth okay so let me ask it a
4:17:10different way to avoid the 27 fiber
4:17:13builds that you originally proposed in
4:17:16the ethernet upgrade is it an option
4:17:19just to use say the Comcast fiber that
4:17:24has been quoted and built in for last M
4:17:26diversity well and that's what we did
4:17:28but only where it's only where when it's
4:17:30there so you'll note that some of the
4:17:33locations um on our proposal don't have
4:17:36that multiple carrier diversity because
4:17:39that second option is just not there and
4:17:42so in that case the diversity would be
4:17:44two separate um fiber paths that Lumen
4:17:48would would provide but you're not going
4:17:50to have those options in every situation
4:17:52it just depends on the geography and
4:17:54where the service providers are so for
4:17:56example we look
4:17:58specifically um at some where Sentry
4:18:01Link was the primary and say Comcast was
4:18:04the secondary correct right and can you
4:18:09avoid a fiber build related to the
4:18:11ethernet upgrade by making what you
4:18:14propose as the secondary the primary
4:18:16well then you would be back where you
4:18:18started so you would be getting both of
4:18:20your connections from one provider which
4:18:22would be
4:18:23Comcast the purpose is to have dual
4:18:26riders but you avoid a fiber
4:18:29build well um if um theoretically
4:18:35because I don't know each situation
4:18:37different if Comcast had two physically
4:18:39diverse fibers going to a location
4:18:43then uh
4:18:45theoretically Comcast could use one and
4:18:47we could use one but that's part of the
4:18:49vetting process that we go through our
4:18:51Engineers go through to look at each
4:18:53situation and look at what's available
4:18:55in that situation and then design an
4:18:58approach that maximizes what we're
4:19:01trying to accomplish okay and that work
4:19:03has been done there's engineering
4:19:04drawings showing all that um I don't
4:19:07know about drawings but there's
4:19:09certainly been engineering evaluation
4:19:11okay um
4:19:14um with respect to this last mile
4:19:17diversity and and getting the second
4:19:21connection is that capacity so let's
4:19:24let's say for a multi-tenant building
4:19:26and you're getting it to the building by
4:19:29doing that ethernet upgrade are there
4:19:31other tenants who can uh purchase
4:19:34additional uh Services as a result of
4:19:37that ethernet
4:19:38upgrade um not in this case I mean there
4:19:42are um situations where we'll build
4:19:45fiber out to a location that has
4:19:47multiple tenants in it and we'll put a
4:19:50device there that allows that to be
4:19:52split out to multiple users um we don't
4:19:55do that with 911 nobody else uses
4:19:58facilities to the pp but the pp so we
4:20:01wouldn't um we wouldn't um break that up
4:20:05and have multiple tendons using it okay
4:20:08but by building the fiber you might have
4:20:11extra capacity that you could allocate
4:20:14to another tenant in the same building
4:20:17true uh we wouldn't do that so no I mean
4:20:20we that's just something we wouldn't do
4:20:22and in fact I've not run across a pep
4:20:24that wasn't a separate physical location
4:20:27um and so uh um if we're going to build
4:20:32fiber to a location to a p app it'll
4:20:35just be used by that
4:20:37peap
4:20:39okayy I got stop you for one second um
4:20:41how much more do you you
4:20:43have
4:20:44[Music]
4:20:46um probably another hour your honor
4:20:49another hour okay
4:20:53um we're about an hour in after lunch
4:20:55here so um look for taking a break then
4:20:59in about um somewhere between 15 to 30
4:21:03minutes look for a stopping point sounds
4:21:09great
4:21:11um e
4:21:51um Mr Carlson uh can you do the last
4:21:55mile diversity piece of this project
4:21:57without getting rid of
4:22:01Sonet
4:22:06no and can you do the last mile
4:22:09diversity piece with without the
4:22:11ethernet upgrade
4:22:16well so there's there's degrees of
4:22:19diversity here so you you can um get
4:22:23diversity by just having t1s to um TDM
4:22:29t1s to a PP um um but
4:22:35um it's important in the design
4:22:38conversations to understand where we are
4:22:41going in the fure future and um the
4:22:45importance of having fiber facilities
4:22:48going to the PPS so more data can be
4:22:51provided to the peps I'm not aware when
4:22:54you're building new facilities whether
4:22:56it's copper or Fiber that the the cost
4:22:59is materially different and so uh it
4:23:02makes more sense to put fiber in place
4:23:05as a future technology to uh enable
4:23:09capabilities for peps in the future yeah
4:23:11you're not putting TDM t1s anymore are
4:23:14you no no we're
4:23:16not and you're trying to get actually
4:23:19get rid of them out of your
4:23:20network they are they are aging out of
4:23:22the network yes and that's for all
4:23:25customers not just 911 that's across the
4:23:28board local exchange carriers across the
4:23:31country are doing
4:23:32this I want to go to the portable
4:23:36generator and fuel um trailer portion of
4:23:40your project um
4:23:43is that relate to the network power
4:23:45Excuse Me Network backup power component
4:23:48of the FCC audit
4:23:50yes and we've looked at that I believe
4:23:53that FCC audit is now exhibit 601 and we
4:23:57and it
4:23:58um we don't need to look at it but with
4:24:02respect to the second amended
4:24:04application and its explanation of this
4:24:06project it uses the term wire centers
4:24:08what's a wire
4:24:10Center um you know um
4:24:13it's a a similar concept as a central
4:24:17office you know a wire Center is is more
4:24:20of a geographic area but it it orients
4:24:23around a central office the central
4:24:25office is the physical building
4:24:31okay so with respect to the network
4:24:33network backup power and we can can pull
4:24:36it up but there were 74 Central offices
4:24:39listed um that served 7 for peaps does
4:24:44that sound right to
4:24:46you uh I think the psap count is higher
4:24:49than that but um but I don't know the
4:24:52exact P
4:24:54count
4:24:57um with respect to that entry a lot of
4:25:01them and we might as well pull it up if
4:25:03we could pull up please um exhibit 601 I
4:25:07believe
4:25:13and if you don't mind turning to page
4:25:17um 27 I think would be about
4:25:24right and that's really hard to read but
4:25:27if we could
4:25:30um what's the area you want to zoom in
4:25:33on you have to ask me a difficult
4:25:35question um let me pull it up on my end
4:25:39and see if I can
4:25:43a better
4:25:44guide just I can't get it all on the
4:25:46screen if I don't have an area so
4:26:03yeah please bear with me for just a
4:26:05minute
4:26:33um with respect to this document on page
4:26:37[Music]
4:26:3927 if we could um look at
4:26:44the uh rows that have um if you're if
4:26:49you're on the left side if you could go
4:26:53back four columns and focus in on those
4:26:57that have
4:26:58text there we go
4:27:02so on this FCC audit there are
4:27:05particular entries for Central offices
4:27:08or wire centers serving P apps where the
4:27:12alternative measures for the amount of
4:27:14backup power indicate a need for have a
4:27:16portable generator readily available do
4:27:19you see that I see that and if we could
4:27:21scroll over to the
4:27:26um Right Far Right column there you
4:27:31go um the very last column description
4:27:34of alternative measures for Tandem
4:27:37generators on those um it says site
4:27:40served by portable gen set
4:27:42I'm
4:27:45on Eighth down do you see
4:27:50that I'm counting down can you read that
4:27:53again it says site served by portable
4:27:57Genet okay and then um go down three
4:28:02more and it says site served by portable
4:28:05generator do you see that I do are those
4:28:09are you representing to the FCC that
4:28:11those
4:28:12sites are already um served by a
4:28:15portable
4:28:18generator
4:28:20um I I don't know I I'm not sure whether
4:28:23we're we're um describing that as um an
4:28:27alternative or that it's in place
4:28:39okay would you agree that a portable
4:28:41generator serving a central office
4:28:43benefits all of centry Link's customers
4:28:46not just
4:28:48911 yes and in particular in the areas
4:28:52where the proposal is to place
4:28:56a portable generator and station it I
4:28:59believe at Clear
4:29:03Creek
4:29:08um centry link has local customers in
4:29:11that area
4:29:13yes I believe
4:29:22so with respect to the um four Central
4:29:26offices directly serving paaps that
4:29:29we're talking about um Georgetown no
4:29:32longer has a paap and Cheyenne Wells no
4:29:34longer has a paap
4:29:37correct yes that's my understanding okay
4:29:39and so we're talking about Central City
4:29:41um not Clear Creek Central City and hot
4:29:43Sulfur Springs are the two uh Central
4:29:46offices at issue correct right and um
4:29:50with respect to those um neither have
4:29:53experiences out experienced outages due
4:29:56to a loss of power
4:29:59true I don't know that for for sure I
4:30:02know both have battery backups so there
4:30:05is some supplemental power available is
4:30:08but is a battery but my question is have
4:30:11either of those Central offices
4:30:13experienced outages due to a loss of
4:30:15power and I think you said you do not
4:30:17know I I don't
4:30:22know with respect to all of the other
4:30:24Central offices listed on um the FCC
4:30:28audit here there is a generator that
4:30:31Sentry Link paid for to serve those
4:30:33Central offices correct
4:30:36correct and
4:30:39um why are these
4:30:45different um well I can't I can't
4:30:47specifically answer that um but I would
4:30:50say broadly that um all of these
4:30:54examples here across all these
4:30:56locations um were um decisions were made
4:31:00to put these um uh this equipment here
4:31:03ba based on assessments that were done
4:31:06at the time and and the facts that we
4:31:08had and so the decision was made at that
4:31:10time to to uh put the facilities there
4:31:14put the generators there um and to have
4:31:17the company pay for the generator uh I'm
4:31:20not sure how the yeah I I'm not sure
4:31:23exactly what the the funding mechanism
4:31:25was for them but um um in the our
4:31:29recommendation for this
4:31:31particular uh project um is um you know
4:31:35being triggered by um you know the
4:31:38journey that we're on uh to improve
4:31:40resiliency for or 911 so so that's why
4:31:44it's it's being Advanced within the
4:31:46context of of this docket okay
4:31:54um and earlier in your testimony you
4:31:57said that portable generator would
4:31:59benefit all customers of Cent link not
4:32:02just 911 but you take the position in
4:32:05this proceeding that
4:32:07911 uh rate payers should ultimately
4:32:10bear 100% of the cost of that portable
4:32:14generator um well it's the same set of
4:32:17rate payers either way but um um what
4:32:21I'm saying is that the the the
4:32:24triggering event for the consideration
4:32:28of of this particular recommendation is
4:32:32the is the um the infrastructure
4:32:35Improvement a journey that we're on and
4:32:38so when we make decisions about um how
4:32:41to spend available Capital will align
4:32:44the capital spend with um really the
4:32:48triggering event that um um causes it
4:32:52okay and so how to align a capital spend
4:32:55means when the company's going to reach
4:32:56into his own pocket and pay for a
4:32:59permanent generator or portable
4:33:01generator and when the company is not
4:33:03going
4:33:04to it those decisions are made and my
4:33:07question is why in this particular
4:33:11instance even though the benefit of the
4:33:15portable generator also serves non bees
4:33:19customers why is 911 bearing 100% of the
4:33:23cost
4:33:25um simply because this is the you know
4:33:28the approach that we're taken with all
4:33:30the projects that that that we're
4:33:32recommending that um the you know the
4:33:36projects are are being um designed and
4:33:39implemented for the this particular
4:33:42purpose and and so it's our position
4:33:46that the um the the charges should
4:33:48follow what that purpose is and same
4:33:51with the fuel trailer that'll serve
4:33:53other Central offices too right it's
4:33:55it's mobile it's mobile correct and it
4:33:58can serve permanent generators you know
4:34:00give whatever fuel they need also
4:34:03correct correct and that benefits um not
4:34:06just 911 but all centry links customers
4:34:09served by that c those Central offices
4:34:12true I think there could potentially be
4:34:14other uses for it yes okay if we could
4:34:17pull up please pull up exhibit 100
4:34:20attachment s oh this is confidential
4:34:22hold on a
4:34:25minute um Let me let me ask this
4:34:27question without pulling up the
4:34:29confidential exhibit the the cost of
4:34:32this particular um portable generator is
4:34:37125,00 plus correct correct and that
4:34:41includes cludes uh the equipment and the
4:34:44freight doesn't
4:34:45it uh I haven't seen the cost estimate
4:34:48but um I would assume it would be all in
4:34:51and that would include um a a charge for
4:34:54startup and commissioning by The Entity
4:34:56you're purchasing it from True um I
4:34:59would anticipate that yes okay and so
4:35:02for purposes of tying everything
4:35:04together that would be within exhibit
4:35:06100 attachment SD
4:35:081-7 C page three but I would like to
4:35:12pull up exhibit 101 attachment
4:35:16sd4 which is a public document at page
4:35:28three and I want to look at these um
4:35:31entries the generator and fuel trailer
4:35:34are the last two on the right side
4:35:36correct correct and so the total
4:35:39generator cost is uh Allin um
4:35:42128,000 plus correct correct and then um
4:35:48Central Link is going to own that
4:35:49equipment outright at the end of the day
4:35:52right uh yes there will be no
4:35:54restrictions on on its use or oversight
4:35:57for its intended purpose
4:36:00correct um I I I I don't know how the
4:36:03how the equipment that what the
4:36:05operating procedures are for it but we
4:36:07it will be an asset on by
4:36:10lumit and and um with respect to the
4:36:13cost of the generator earlier we looked
4:36:15at if these projects are approved and
4:36:18and the uh MRC is increased to
4:36:22$310 per month centry link could make a
4:36:25choice to allocate the first month so
4:36:28March of
4:36:292025 to this cost of the generator and
4:36:32avoid the 15% Capital costs of um 20
4:36:38roughly 40,600
4:36:44correct
4:36:49um I I guess I want to make sure I'm
4:36:52understanding what your
4:36:53question um allocate one months worth of
4:36:58128,000 and and then that would be the
4:37:02only cost
4:37:04recovered immediately with the first
4:37:07receipt of funds could go to this outof
4:37:11pocket purchase so that it's not spread
4:37:13over 24 months because it's just a
4:37:15paperwork entry on Sentry Link's part
4:37:18right so this is where I'm confused
4:37:22since the Tariff wouldn't be approved
4:37:25until March of next year and we would
4:37:27get reimbursement one month at a time uh
4:37:31if we're going to incur the cost in
4:37:332024 or even if we incur the cost in
4:37:362025 we would still get the
4:37:38reimbursement one month at a time over
4:37:41the 24 month time period depending upon
4:37:45where if you prate among all projects a
4:37:49certain amount but if you took the first
4:37:51month's payment which earlier we looked
4:37:53at was approximately
4:37:56$193,000 and allocated it to the
4:37:58generator we wouldn't have the
4:38:00additional 15% Capital carrying costs
4:38:03per
4:38:03year well we're GNA we're going to spend
4:38:08128,000 so we're going to get the
4:38:10capital cost either way
4:38:12so so that's just a function of of how
4:38:15that works so um um you know our
4:38:20position in this is that um the the
4:38:23recovery of those Capital costs would
4:38:26come from um um through this mechanism
4:38:31okay so your answer is no you're the 15%
4:38:35per
4:38:36year on top of the amount for Capital
4:38:40costs cannot be avoided under any
4:38:42circumstance for any of these
4:38:45projects well I guess what I'm saying is
4:38:47the scenario that you're describing I
4:38:49don't see as a likely scenario so I so
4:38:53no so that's correct the capital costs
4:38:55cannot be
4:38:57avoided um not based on our
4:38:59recommendation
4:39:02no how many fuel trailers does centry
4:39:05link have in Colorado now I I don't
4:39:09know what's the overhead associated with
4:39:13um owning a fuel
4:39:15trailer um I I don't know for sure I
4:39:18would speculate it's um like any piece
4:39:21of equipment like that it's it's um
4:39:23maintenance to the equipment it's um
4:39:26repairs when things break ongoing
4:39:28preventive maintenance Mr old is your
4:39:3110-minute warning I'm cutting it off in
4:39:33about 10 minutes
4:39:35okay um you understand that rule 2143
4:39:39requires the company to take on the cost
4:39:41of future maintenance or do you not
4:39:43understand that uh I'm not familiar with
4:39:46that okay just want to touch briefly on
4:39:49the middle mile fiber builds those are
4:39:51again inter office diversity projects
4:39:53between Century Links Central offices
4:39:56true correct and the benefit is not
4:40:00exclusive then to basic emergency
4:40:01service
4:40:03true um we've identified right at this
4:40:06point that the use of these facilities
4:40:08would be
4:40:09911 uh any future use we just have not
4:40:13Quantified that um and so Mr Carlson I
4:40:17have 10 minutes so I just want you to if
4:40:19I if it's a yes or no answer you can
4:40:21give me please do so so we can continue
4:40:24um expeditiously I'm going to jump I'm
4:40:27talking about the break we're taking a
4:40:28break in 10 minutes I'm not cutting you
4:40:29off okay oh goodness thank you yeah yeah
4:40:32no no that that's what I meant by that I
4:40:34told I told you we're taking a break in
4:40:35about 30 in there and look for a
4:40:37stopping point so I hopefully you don't
4:40:39got a whole lot more after that but um
4:40:42but don't don't I'll give you time after
4:40:45a break but that's what I'm talking
4:40:46about thank you judge I appreciate that
4:40:48and my blood pressure dropped a few
4:40:49points as a
4:40:51result um it's 137 now
4:40:59um did in its analysis of what would be
4:41:02best for improving resiliency and
4:41:05reliability of the network did the
4:41:08company
4:41:09consider uh add diversity B going to a
4:41:13carrier neutral location which are
4:41:15throughout the state of
4:41:19Colorado we um you know we looked at all
4:41:22the options available I don't know about
4:41:24that one specifically okay and if you
4:41:27went to a carryer neutral location you
4:41:29would avoid uh the commonality of a a
4:41:32Sentry length building
4:41:36right um yes and you would avoid the
4:41:40equipment com com ality that may exist
4:41:42for 911 within that building
4:41:47correct uh the theoretically yes all
4:41:51three of the projects proposed for
4:41:53Middle mile infrastructure um in the
4:41:55second am in the second amended
4:41:58application um those were in the middle
4:42:00mile segments correct right and that's
4:42:04for inter office diversity for wire
4:42:06centers serving pabs correct correct
4:42:10there are nine wire centers that
4:42:12currently lack this diversity
4:42:15correct I I believe so I don't recall
4:42:17that exact amount but sounds
4:42:21right so the sole purpose of these
4:42:24proposed new fiber builds is a secondary
4:42:27path solely for 911 in the middle mile
4:42:32correct and with respect to those
4:42:34secondary paths what you're proposing is
4:42:37a new fiber build placing 144 strands
4:42:41where Century Link will light 12 of
4:42:44them and use two for 911 specific
4:42:48secondary path correct
4:42:51correct on none of the three fiber
4:42:53builds that you submitted you intended
4:42:56to replace the primary path that is
4:42:58currently in use is that
4:43:01correct I believe so that includes tell
4:43:05your ride to
4:43:08Norwood is that correct
4:43:13um I believe
4:43:18so I'm not aware that there's an already
4:43:21existing path between Telly ride and
4:43:23Norwood for 911 traffic but I believe
4:43:28so correct there's no um intent to
4:43:33replace the the currently uh the current
4:43:37uh Norwood facility that wire Center
4:43:40primary PA for those question um so if
4:43:44your question is have we move have we
4:43:46removed that project from the list yes
4:43:48we've removed it nope um my question is
4:43:51a little bit different and it's poorly
4:43:52worded I
4:43:54apologize with respect to the tellure
4:43:56Norwood Bild it was not Sentry Link's
4:43:59intent to replace the primary path for
4:44:02calls that go to the Norwood wire Center
4:44:06no that is a correct statement correct
4:44:09so Century Links still at some point in
4:44:12time has to figure out what to do for
4:44:14the Norwood wire Center which is
4:44:16microwave radio
4:44:19correct I I yeah I think that that's
4:44:22that's an open that's an open issue that
4:44:24we're going to have to work pro and
4:44:26that's an OSP
4:44:31issue
4:44:34um possibly I I I'm not sure I don't I'm
4:44:37not sure what you mean by
4:44:39that well should 911 pay for the Norwood
4:44:43wire Center microwave
4:44:45radio upgrade or
4:44:47change well we're not asking for that um
4:44:51so I think what we would do is we would
4:44:53go into this that particular situation
4:44:57and we would um um evaluate that
4:45:00situation with all the available data
4:45:03but replacing that radio system is a
4:45:07different consideration than um a
4:45:11diversity to that wire Center so that
4:45:13particular question we've not wrestled
4:45:24with it is an accurate statement that
4:45:27prior to filing the application in
4:45:29February of
4:45:302024 centry link did not reach out to
4:45:32any third party about using the third
4:45:35party resources as an alternative to a
4:45:37new
4:45:39build that
4:45:41um I I don't know that for a fact we we
4:45:45talk to third party re uh Partners all
4:45:47the
4:45:49time you know if uh well strike
4:45:53that how many opportunities exist in
4:45:56Colorado to add an additional layer of
4:45:58resiliency for paaps by grooming
4:46:01additional thirdparty
4:46:05facilities
4:46:06um
4:46:08by by grooming I would say say um if by
4:46:12grooming you mean um um you know adding
4:46:16adding new network routes then that's
4:46:18what we're proposing for the for the
4:46:20piece applications with the diverse
4:46:23ethernet project um as it relates to
4:46:26other parts of the network I'm not
4:46:28familiar with what that number would
4:46:31be um you there are some situations
4:46:35where thirdparty
4:46:36facilities uh could be groomed with uh
4:46:40not too much time and not too much
4:46:42expense is that a correct
4:46:45statement
4:46:46uh I I I'm sure that situation
4:46:53exists but there's been no study to
4:46:55identify those um opportunities correct
4:47:00well we don't Lumen doesn't routinely do
4:47:03grooming specific to third party
4:47:05locations we groom the whole network so
4:47:08I'm not aware of any studies
4:47:16uh your honor it's um 143 I didn't know
4:47:19if you wanted to take a break now that
4:47:22would be perfect let's take a break
4:47:23right now we take a break until two
4:47:25o'clock
4:47:27um the mean you should I I've got you
4:47:30around three hours already over three
4:47:32hours so which is what you put in there
4:47:34for hopefully you should I'll let you go
4:47:36a little bit more but please try and
4:47:38make sure that it's related to a project
4:47:40and especially projects that are are no
4:47:42longer being um considered in this
4:47:44proceeding um so we'll take a break and
4:47:48we'll take a break until two o'clock uh
4:47:51and then Mr Carlson you'll hopefully be
4:47:53close to be being somewhat
4:47:56done no
4:48:09problem
4:48:39e
4:49:09e
4:49:39e
4:50:09e
4:50:39e
4:51:09e
4:51:39e
4:52:09e
4:52:39e
4:53:09e
4:53:39e
4:54:09e
4:54:39e
4:55:09e
4:55:39e
4:56:09e
4:56:39e
4:57:09e
4:57:39e
4:58:09e
4:58:39e
4:59:09e
4:59:39e
5:00:08e
5:00:38e
5:01:08e
5:01:38e
5:02:08e
5:02:38e
5:03:08e e
5:04:08all right
5:04:10I call to trace you to make sure you can
5:04:12hear me I can hear you
5:04:15alrighty uh we shall go back on the
5:04:18record with receding 23 a-01
5:04:22197t Mr Carlson guess wa where you
5:04:26at hopefully the camera apparently there
5:04:30he
5:04:31is I thought I thought You' escaped I
5:04:34was going to be proud of you Mr Del was
5:04:36going to suddenly end up there you know
5:04:38they keep tackling me when head for the
5:04:40door so I think I'm here for the
5:04:42duration all right well since you're
5:04:44here for the duration during that
5:04:46duration you are still under oath yes
5:04:49sir uh Miss odar I give you a few more
5:04:51minutes but please be heading towards
5:04:53the uh the finish line if you would I
5:04:56will I have a probably a total of four
5:04:58questions I'm going to offer some uh
5:05:01more outage reports and then I have
5:05:02three confidential exhibits I do want to
5:05:05review um and so that will require
5:05:08unfortunately stopping the live stream I
5:05:10have looked at the list of uh people
5:05:12signed on to this proceeding and I see
5:05:15Andrew Damron who is cca's uh witness
5:05:18who signed in NDA I also see a ccoa
5:05:22member Kathy rley uh she has also signed
5:05:24in NDA so I don't think anybody on the
5:05:29in the zoom call would need to be
5:05:32excluded okay all right all right good
5:05:35going Mr Carlson all the three builds
5:05:38that you proposed in the second
5:05:39recommended application in those areas
5:05:42centry link has local customers correct
5:05:45correct to whom it's providing Services
5:05:48um not just
5:05:49911 correct and ultimately with respect
5:05:53to these new fiber builds if uh approved
5:05:56Sentry Link would get to own those
5:05:58facilities
5:06:00correct correct nothing would prevent
5:06:03though centry link from choosing to
5:06:04transfer ownership to cot or CBO or any
5:06:07other entity correct
5:06:10um I'm not familiar with the
5:06:13requirements of that so I'm not sure
5:06:15what the restrictions might be okay well
5:06:18we're talking about 144 strands where 12
5:06:20will be lit and two will be dedicated to
5:06:23911 correct correct correct so the
5:06:26excess capacity hypothetically of any
5:06:29new fiber build could be uh used for a
5:06:32swap with another carrier
5:06:34correct um I I I I I guess
5:06:38hypothetically there could be different
5:06:40options but we're not aware of any and
5:06:43and hypothetically the dark fiber could
5:06:45be leased to an entity who is
5:06:48interested assuming there's a assuming
5:06:51there's a market in those geographies
5:06:53but um hypothetically yes okay and uh
5:06:56those types of situations would generate
5:06:58Revenue
5:07:00potentially uh it it it depends on the
5:07:04situation
5:07:06okay uh if only if you didn't charge but
5:07:11you allow somebody
5:07:14fiber um you know each each Situation's
5:07:18different each has its own
5:07:19characteristics and so uh um I I would
5:07:23say that um in this case um we're we
5:07:27were able to identify the the costs and
5:07:30then the reimbursement mechanism that's
5:07:32within a particular set of projects but
5:07:35things that might happen in the future
5:07:37um how how the revenue might flow with
5:07:40that I I just don't know we just have to
5:07:42that's hypothetical at this point okay
5:07:45but it would be fair for the um if this
5:07:48any of those fiber builds were approved
5:07:50for there to be conditions placed such
5:07:52as if you did generate any revenue from
5:07:54any circumstance that that go back to
5:07:57the 911 Community that'd be fair
5:08:00wouldn't
5:08:01it well it it depends on the situation
5:08:04so I'm not sure I'm I'm not really in a
5:08:07position to say whether that would be
5:08:08fair or not
5:08:10okay uh your honor at this time we would
5:08:12offer from um proceeding
5:08:1523m 0197
5:08:18T outage investigation report
5:08:222312
5:08:252311
5:08:28239 and
5:08:342314
5:08:362309 or 232
5:08:4039
5:08:422309 okay then what was the last one and
5:08:45then
5:08:472314 okay and that's from proceeding 23m
5:08:51what
5:08:530197 T is in Tom
5:09:00okay and just
5:09:02um for completeness um those two um two
5:09:07of those 23-11 11 relates to chaffy and
5:09:1223-9 relates to Clear Creek um those are
5:09:17referred to by Century Link in answers
5:09:19to
5:09:20interrogatories which are within exhibit
5:09:22um an exhibit to be offered exhibit 600
5:09:26okay so let let me get get what you got
5:09:27here so you have four reports from
5:09:32preceding
5:09:3323m 0197 T correct and what are these
5:09:38reports
5:09:40these are outage investigation reports
5:09:41for Century Link took a certain position
5:09:44on a fiber cut that it wasn't in the
5:09:47basic emergency service network it was
5:09:48in the OSP Network or uh they centry
5:09:52link thought it had groomed to provide a
5:09:55diverse path and it wasn't actually
5:09:58groomed and this goes to the whole uh
5:10:01dispute in this application about um
5:10:04what's in the public interest what where
5:10:07money should be spent for approving the
5:10:10basic emergency service network okay and
5:10:12you want administrative notice taken of
5:10:14those four reports from that proceeding
5:10:16correct yes please all right any
5:10:19objection
5:10:20to these reports being administratively
5:10:22noticed uh yes youron I think with that
5:10:25explanation is of the relevance I have
5:10:27to object because I don't think the
5:10:28scope of this proceeding as is as
5:10:31explained by m old this I don't think
5:10:33the scope here is whether or not what's
5:10:36what projects are in the best public
5:10:38interest I think whether or not you know
5:10:40the five or six projects depending how
5:10:42you count them here uh meet this the
5:10:44criteria and the rules so if these outer
5:10:47reports are being offered for um any
5:10:50type of advocacy concerning public
5:10:53interest of these being the best
5:10:55projects I think they're irrelevant
5:10:57beyond the scope and any response go
5:11:00ahead if I could briefly respond this
5:11:02isn't a judicatory a judicatory
5:11:04proceeding under the APA governed by The
5:11:07Rules of Evidence but not you know
5:11:09strictly and the ccoa community 20
5:11:13governing bodies would like its voice
5:11:15heard with respect to the issues about
5:11:17the application and the content and the
5:11:20priorities for improving the basic
5:11:22emergency service network and in
5:11:25particular their view of of where State
5:11:28911 sear charge fund should be increased
5:11:31and used um we should be able to respond
5:11:35to the applicant statements in the
5:11:36application and the materials and
5:11:38support and um we think it is relevant
5:11:43because the basic emergency service
5:11:44network is part of the Core Business of
5:11:47governing bodies who provide emergency
5:11:49telephone service and emergency
5:11:50notification service and so the
5:11:54commission may ultimately disagree and
5:11:56decide
5:11:58um that it will not give much weight to
5:12:01the arguments that the interveners that
5:12:03I represent are making but I don't think
5:12:06the evidence should be excluded and we
5:12:08should be able to it to our statement of
5:12:10position that we will ultimately file in
5:12:12this case in support of our positions
5:12:14well I tell you what um report
5:12:172312 if I take that in that should make
5:12:21me not want to approve which
5:12:24project it should make you not want to
5:12:27under uh approve any new fiber build
5:12:30because we need to go back and reassess
5:12:32what currently exists and what's groomed
5:12:34to carry 911 traffic and what's not and
5:12:37there has been no initial assessment
5:12:40of of what the current status of the
5:12:41network is we had outage and we learned
5:12:44after the fact that something was not
5:12:47groomed that's much more costeffective
5:12:49and a better use of a dollar than doing
5:12:51any new Bild well it's not I mean if you
5:12:54had if you had a compos opposing project
5:12:56forward I could look at that but there's
5:12:58no opposing project so that report is
5:13:01going these reports are going to make it
5:13:02more likely that I am not going to to
5:13:05approve any fiber build project is that
5:13:07correct is that is that the relevance of
5:13:10them that is the relevance of the
5:13:12Improvement plan application in
5:13:14compliance with all of the sections of
5:13:16the rule including um 2143
5:13:20B1 um a through e which is going to the
5:13:25stakeholders having informal
5:13:27consultations having things that are
5:13:29based on actual outages those are actual
5:13:32outages your honor okay that's that's
5:13:35fine that's fine again I want to see how
5:13:37this is relevant or why do I care about
5:13:38this so there's fiber cuts that are out
5:13:40there these are going to be reports of
5:13:42fiber Cuts is that correct two of the
5:13:44four are okay and so how and so and so
5:13:48because there were fiber Cuts I'm not
5:13:50going to approve new fiber is that
5:13:53correct is that the premise is that the
5:13:56premise
5:13:58of new fiber builds that cost a lot of
5:14:02money in areas that serve different
5:14:04paaps than doing a full assessment of
5:14:08whether we could to spend that same
5:14:09amount of money and figure out what
5:14:11currently we have and whether it's
5:14:13groomed appropriately whether it's
5:14:15tested and maintained appropriately so
5:14:17that traffic is actually flowing as
5:14:19people believe so that we can mitigate
5:14:22against the harm of an outage well this
5:14:25you're you're talking about a giant look
5:14:27at at everything that should be done in
5:14:28the state it sounds like but this is
5:14:30individual individual outages
5:14:33correct these are individual outage and
5:14:36so how does that how does that get me to
5:14:37to this gigant look at the entire world
5:14:40of how I should redo everything that
5:14:42they're proposing I don't I don't see
5:14:45that I think it goes your honor to the
5:14:48the the heart and the the purpose behind
5:14:50will 2143 be and in particular it's the
5:14:53projects I have to look at the projects
5:14:56under and so this and so this if this is
5:14:59relevant to me it should make it more or
5:15:01less likely that I want to approve that
5:15:02project now if you told me there was an
5:15:04outage one day one place through the
5:15:06fiber cut I'm not quite sure why that
5:15:08would make it more or less likely that
5:15:09that project should be approved well I
5:15:12think you heard testimony today in
5:15:13particular that uh for example the
5:15:16Denver main office has not had a 911
5:15:19outage let's refocus those dollars to
5:15:22areas that have had outages where they
5:15:24weren't roomed and examine those and
5:15:27it's subsection
5:15:29B
5:15:30Roman uh six six that talks about
5:15:35projects that have the potential to
5:15:36reduce the likelihood of outages based
5:15:38on past patterns of outages in the
5:15:41network which these are and based on the
5:15:43existence of points in the network
5:15:45equipment or software that represent a
5:15:47lack of redundancy and diversity the
5:15:49ccoa community is aware and wants to
5:15:52bring those forth and that's a specific
5:15:55requirement in the rule where this what
5:15:58goes it's not a cram down of what centry
5:16:00link wants it should have been a more
5:16:02iterative process and collaborative
5:16:04process I understand the judge you don't
5:16:06agree with me but we believe these
5:16:08should be received into the record for
5:16:10purposes of making the appropriate and
5:16:12thorough arguments and we shouldn't be
5:16:15uh uh constrained by what centry link
5:16:18chose and obviously there just a dispute
5:16:20about whether they complied with
5:16:22subsection B1 romanet 6 1 through
5:16:27five and the the point is there's a lot
5:16:31of ways to improve this network it's not
5:16:33just the FCC audit there's a lot more
5:16:36going on and our voice should be heard
5:16:39your voice is heard that's what I've
5:16:41been listening to your voice since about
5:16:429:15 this morning so uh it's heard quite
5:16:45well but it has to be heard on relevant
5:16:48matters and what I can do stuff about
5:16:50and on this one I don't think I can so
5:16:52I'm not going to accept those in I think
5:16:54they go are not relevant in this matter
5:16:56and so I'm not going to administratively
5:16:58notice those individual things there um
5:17:01next anything more I have three
5:17:04confidential exhibits I would like to
5:17:05display so we need to go off the Record
5:17:07please
5:17:09uh what are these concern before we go
5:17:11off the Record and doing there the fiber
5:17:13builds that are um at issue in the
5:17:14states that have been proposed in the
5:17:16second amended application all
5:17:18right Casey if you can take care of us
5:17:21here yes um again just confirming
5:17:23everybody here is allowed to be here
5:17:26yeah if anyone who's not signed an NDA
5:17:28needs to get out if you have the control
5:17:30of someone who doesn't have one get them
5:17:32out of here
5:18:05all righty I think we are all set oh all
5:18:08right I'll talk slow then make sure uh
5:18:12let's see next up is best
5:18:15911 Joseph bener your
5:18:18honor can you hear me I can hear you I
5:18:21can't see you though yeah my microphone
5:18:24went out before lunch and in getting
5:18:27that reconnected I apparently lost my
5:18:29video I apologize all right
5:18:34um and I also apologize that uh
5:18:39the questions we're going to ask and the
5:18:40matters I'm going to discuss are in
5:18:43confidential documents there'll somehow
5:18:46introduce it's probably easy just keep
5:18:48it on confidential rather than jumping
5:18:50on and off wow I wish you would have
5:18:52told me that a minute
5:18:54ago I I
5:18:59apologize am I going back now
5:19:03or
5:19:05please okay give me a couple minutes
5:19:10can you confirm everyone I don't know
5:19:12what you're showing so can you confirm
5:19:13everyone here is allowed to to see what
5:19:15you're showing is everyone here I guess
5:19:17again if you have not signed an NDA in
5:19:19this please
5:19:20leave I don't see a whole lot of extra
5:19:22people in here
5:19:48all right I think we're good to go all
5:19:51right Mr Cox you may
5:19:53proceed thank you your honor uh good
5:19:56afternoon Mr Carlson hello thanks for
5:19:59hanging in all day um it's nice to meet
5:20:02you you'll be happy to know I I
5:20:04certainly uh won't have as many
5:20:06questions for you won't uh take us with
5:20:08as much as you time as we have so far um
5:20:10so hopefully we can go pretty quickly
5:20:12and uh shouldn't get into try to avoid
5:20:17getting into the the confidential
5:20:18material um if we can um but just kind
5:20:24of as a as a reset can you clarify for
5:20:26me um what your role has been in the
5:20:28development and planning of of the
5:20:30projects that are proposed in the
5:20:31Improvement
5:20:33plan um so uh um as I described ear
5:20:38earlier my my role broadly at at Lumen
5:20:42is to um um be in uh involved in the the
5:20:48customer experience of our 911 customers
5:20:50across the country so obviously uh
5:20:53Colorado is uh a portion of that
5:20:56responsibility there's a team members
5:20:58who work directly for me who are
5:21:00involved qu uh um quite extensively in
5:21:03the state as as well as engineering
5:21:06resources and Customer Care Resources
5:21:08you are involved in the state and so uh
5:21:11I I have an awareness at that level um
5:21:14in this particular proceeding the the
5:21:17the work that was done to to get to the
5:21:19point of this
5:21:21application um I've had an awareness of
5:21:23that but I haven't been directly
5:21:25involved in the preparation of of the of
5:21:28the plan I've certainly have spent a lot
5:21:30of time um uh over the past uh several
5:21:34weeks um when um Mr Doo wasn't able to
5:21:38to be part of this hearing and so I'm
5:21:40I'm familiar with it and I'm familiar
5:21:42with the practices of the company
5:21:44generally since I've had the you know
5:21:46the pleasure of being a part of this
5:21:48team for 35
5:21:50years you were not directly involved in
5:21:52the development of the the projects the
5:21:56proposal the cost estimates no
5:22:00okay um and in looking at the costs um
5:22:04are you familiar with commission rule
5:22:062143b
5:22:08which requires the Improvement plan to
5:22:10provide firm estimated costs for the
5:22:13projects other things yes okay um and it
5:22:18would be fair to say that Century Link
5:22:20did not have all estimated cost
5:22:22information concerning the proposed
5:22:24project when it filed its amended
5:22:26application in
5:22:27February right we made some changes to
5:22:30it and that was correct after the at the
5:22:34time of the second amended application
5:22:36as well in March yes correct
5:22:39and when Mr do filed his direct
5:22:41testimony in May correct and when Mr L
5:22:45filed his supplemental direct testimony
5:22:47as well in June correct and including up
5:22:52until
5:22:53today
5:22:55um centy link has continued to make
5:22:58changes to its costs its estimated
5:23:02costs um we we certainly changed the
5:23:05numbers the the uh the the um evaluation
5:23:10has uh continued to be ongoing and we've
5:23:12made changes where it's
5:23:15appropriate but it's it's fair to say
5:23:17that Century Link is at a difficult time
5:23:19in determining the cost for the pro
5:23:21proposed
5:23:22projects I I wouldn't probably
5:23:24characterize it as difficult I would
5:23:26certainly say that um it's been
5:23:28iterative and it's it's it's it's uh
5:23:30evolved over
5:23:33time but uh yeah like you said it has
5:23:37been revised um but now with your latest
5:23:41proposal today or latest addition
5:23:44exhibit uh
5:23:47110 um is it your position that
5:23:50the estimated costs are now final in the
5:23:56final uh form that they're going to be
5:23:59proposed
5:24:01for projects they are and and they they
5:24:04would be correct and accurate correct
5:24:07yes
5:24:09um I want to shift specifically to the
5:24:12overhead costs um in Mr Lo's direct
5:24:17testimony he describes one of the
5:24:19changes that he made in that testimony
5:24:21from the second amended application um
5:24:24as the addition of a cost factor for
5:24:26shipping handling sales tax job site
5:24:30delivery
5:24:31Etc are you familiar with that I am um
5:24:36and and I believe this is what what Mr
5:24:38Del describ or refers to an a
5:24:39supplemental direct testimony as
5:24:41overhead cost is that correct
5:24:45correct uh Miss Federico if we could
5:24:47pull up hearing exhibit 101 attachment
5:24:50sd4 rev
5:25:032 this would be page three
5:25:09I know we've looked at this a lot um and
5:25:13I know you talked with Miss older about
5:25:17overhead cost and the
5:25:206% um but that's and that 6% was applied
5:25:25for the overhead cost for all proposed
5:25:27projects regardless of the differences
5:25:29in the
5:25:31projects correct all all them so it was
5:25:35it was uh applied to all the cost
5:25:38associated with uh five of the six
5:25:41projects the ethernet upgrade project
5:25:44those costs there are just the
5:25:46non-recurring charges so there are
5:25:49additional monthly recurring charges
5:25:51that are not reflected here sure thank
5:25:54you for that for that clarification yes
5:25:56just the non-recurring Char charges for
5:25:58the um
5:26:00ethernet um but there's no breakdown or
5:26:05detailed analysis of of these costs for
5:26:08each project anywhere in the testimony
5:26:10no there's not other than the examples
5:26:13of what's in there but not a breakdown
5:26:15yeah I think you referred to these
5:26:16before as solid estimates based on prior
5:26:20experience of of Century Link correct so
5:26:24basically rough
5:26:26estimates they're factors correct
5:26:28they're factors that we play against the
5:26:30the
5:26:34numbers um looking specifically at the
5:26:37generator project
5:26:39um the total there and that's
5:26:43um for the actual equipment cost says
5:26:48it's uh
5:26:50$128,500
5:26:5325 um and is that that's taken from a
5:26:58quote uh that's contained in hearing
5:27:01exhibit 100 attachment
5:27:05sd17 C on page three is that correct
5:27:08correct
5:27:10yes um and that quote and we don't have
5:27:13to bring it up because it's confidential
5:27:15and hopefully if you have it in front of
5:27:16you go ahead and look at it um that
5:27:20quote includes an amount for Freight on
5:27:23page three is that correct
5:27:26correct and is it your general
5:27:28understanding that FR Freight uh refers
5:27:32to shipping
5:27:35costs generally yeah
5:27:38okay um
5:27:41yet on shipping costs as we already
5:27:45talked about were included in overhead
5:27:47costs as well
5:27:50right yeah I uh um shipping costs were
5:27:55referenced by Mr Doo as a an example of
5:27:58the items that could be viewed as
5:28:00overhead expenses it doesn't mean that
5:28:03in every
5:28:04single um situation all of the over head
5:28:08expenses are incurred so um as I think
5:28:12you know you you've identified here I I
5:28:15think the the important thing to note is
5:28:18that the 128,000 or any of those uh
5:28:21items on the sub first subtotal line
5:28:24represent the The Upfront costs that are
5:28:27required to to um to get these
5:28:30Technologies in place but uh there are
5:28:33simply other overhead costs that come
5:28:36along with them that have not been Iden
5:28:38ified here and what we the way we deal
5:28:41with that is by applying factors to uh
5:28:44to to estimate what we believe the
5:28:46overheads could be in other other
5:28:49dockets we've used 8.76% as this
5:28:52overhead and so this this time we use
5:28:55six um and so uh but this is uh our way
5:29:00of capturing these or identifying these
5:29:04costs but in testimony all that's been
5:29:07identif ified again shipping
5:29:11handling um sales tax job site
5:29:15delivery those were identified as cost
5:29:18being included as part of this
5:29:21Factor correct but I would say that I
5:29:24wouldn't view that list as exhaustive
5:29:26that there can be other overhead costs
5:29:29associated with with um activities as
5:29:33we're describing here sure that's what I
5:29:36assume the etet is for
5:29:38um but it says shipping handling so
5:29:43shipping is included in the quote and
5:29:45then
5:29:47potentially included in the 6% overhead
5:29:49but we don't know that because there's
5:29:51not an actual breakdown or cost
5:29:54analysis related to that 6% is that
5:29:57correct you're correct it's not broken
5:29:59out you're correct and just for
5:30:02clarification Central Link would also
5:30:03get Capital cost of the
5:30:0515% and profit on top of those
5:30:08potentially double counted shipping
5:30:12costs
5:30:14the the uh yeah the the math the the
5:30:18calculation for the capital cost comes
5:30:21from a line that includes the overhead
5:30:23so that that's how it's calculated
5:30:26correct and then the profit margin is is
5:30:29calculated off that similar amount so in
5:30:31the case of the generator it's the
5:30:33135,000
5:30:35amount okay
5:30:38and
5:30:39then with capital costs similarly
5:30:42Central Link applied a a
5:30:4415% annual estimate uh standard uh to
5:30:48all projects regardless of the details
5:30:52of the
5:30:53projects um yeah it's a it's a standard
5:30:56factor that we
5:30:58use and in um testimony Capital costs
5:31:04and I think it's um actually Des
5:31:07described up on the previous page on
5:31:09page two um Capital costs are described
5:31:12as carrying cost taxes depreciation
5:31:16Etc
5:31:18correct um and again Century Link didn't
5:31:20did not have any breakdown or conduct
5:31:22any actual detailed analysis for these
5:31:25costs for each individual
5:31:27project no we
5:31:31didn't and there was no regarding
5:31:35Capital cost and carrying costs there
5:31:37was no risk assessment done regarding
5:31:40cost recovery for these
5:31:44projects um not specific to cost
5:31:47recovery the the factors that we use are
5:31:51um a function of the analysis that our
5:31:53finance team does to get to that the
5:31:56factors that we use I'm I don't have the
5:31:58details of that so uh but I'm not aware
5:32:01of an risk
5:32:03analysis so did the did the finance team
5:32:06do a breakdown
5:32:08or an actual projection well uh
5:32:12generally speaking a factor like this um
5:32:16would be based on uh uh information that
5:32:20that comes from our finance
5:32:23team but again like the overhead cost
5:32:27this is just a estimate based on
5:32:30experience um not necessarily based on
5:32:34the actual project um it's it's not
5:32:37based on one specific project it's uh
5:32:40based on
5:32:42experience thank
5:32:44you um and then looking
5:32:49specifically at the ethernet
5:32:51upgrade
5:32:53project um right there
5:32:58in what is this one two three four
5:33:00fourth
5:33:02column uh has the bill cost has zero
5:33:05dollar for equipment costs
5:33:08uh meanwhile
5:33:10in exhibit hearing exhibit 101
5:33:13attachment sd1 C rev 2 which is kind of
5:33:18that
5:33:19broad broad um chart with the cost
5:33:24related to the ethernet upgrade um it
5:33:27lists cost for Capital Equipment in the
5:33:29non-recurring costs um so
5:33:33is the chart right we see here in sd4 is
5:33:37that is that
5:33:38incorrect no the the the chart's correct
5:33:42it's just uh you know it's an attempt to
5:33:45show a lot of data that where the the
5:33:48column for ethernet upgrade is a little
5:33:50unique from every other column so the
5:33:54when you look at the one 1, 760,000
5:33:58number it's a non-recurring cost and
5:34:01what's in that number are the is the
5:34:04cost of doing fiber builds it's the cost
5:34:06of equipment it's it's any non-recurring
5:34:09cost that's been identified either that
5:34:11Sentry Link would have to uh Implement
5:34:14in its Network or that the third party
5:34:17uh providers would have to implement the
5:34:19equipment costs for every other column
5:34:22there are the uh equipment costs that
5:34:24were identified specific to those
5:34:26projects so it's um it's an attempt to
5:34:30kind of put several pieces of
5:34:31information in the same
5:34:35chart okay not not really f following um
5:34:39so there are equipment costs but they're
5:34:40included in the build cost but they're
5:34:42not broken out into equipment
5:34:45cost so are we talking specifically the
5:34:48ethernet project correct in in this
5:34:51chart okay so
5:34:541.76
5:34:56million I understand that that that that
5:34:59amount includes the the total um I'm
5:35:02trying to understand what our build cost
5:35:05versus equipment cost when the other
5:35:07chart
5:35:08identifies equipment
5:35:11costs so um the information that
5:35:15distinguishes between equipment and
5:35:18outside plant costs is uh is in I think
5:35:23exhibit e or exhibit B I'm not sure the
5:35:27um the exactly the naming so um the the
5:35:31chart breaks down the costs um that are
5:35:35upfront costs for the building out the
5:35:38fiber and the up front cross for the
5:35:41equipment and both Total together to 1.7
5:35:48million and we can move move on for this
5:35:51but I think it's just that the doesn't
5:35:54appear that the this chart necessarily
5:35:57matches up with your other chart uh
5:36:00certainly in the total it does but um in
5:36:02the description of the cost which again
5:36:04this this chart we're looking at here
5:36:06this is intended to be your master
5:36:08chart regarding the breakdown of the
5:36:09cost correct okay
5:36:13correct
5:36:15um and the
5:36:19testimony didn't identify the types of
5:36:21equipment uh whether in this chart or in
5:36:25the confidential exhibit B that you were
5:36:27just referencing um or in general the
5:36:30testimony didn't identify the types of
5:36:32equipment they required for um the the
5:36:36projects
5:36:38um only in only in the categories that
5:36:43um if a fiber facility is going to be uh
5:36:47implemented a location the you have to
5:36:50have equipment that uh terminates that
5:36:52fiber so there's you would know that you
5:36:54would have that kind of equipment but
5:36:56the specific device itself no that's not
5:36:58been
5:37:01identified um
5:37:05and also in you're talking about the the
5:37:10project the ethernet upgrade project is
5:37:13going to require some Fiber Bild is that
5:37:14correct correct um and you we have some
5:37:19other projects that are fiber build
5:37:21projects and with those
5:37:23projects um cental link provided a
5:37:25costing
5:37:26tool that broke down the description of
5:37:30what went into the construction or
5:37:32what's proposed for the construction
5:37:34there's not a similar costing tool for
5:37:37the ethernet upgrade project as well
5:37:40right there there have been some cost
5:37:43per foot information provided for the
5:37:44ethernet project um the the screenshots
5:37:48of the costing tool itself no we've not
5:37:50provided
5:37:53those
5:37:56um and
5:37:58then additionally regarding the the
5:38:01build
5:38:02costs um I believe in in
5:38:05testimony I think you touched on it
5:38:09earlier um but the bill costs
5:38:13include costs related to ethernet
5:38:16conversion that's already started
5:38:17happening at certain locations is that
5:38:20correct right correct um so those costs
5:38:23have already been
5:38:25incurred um yeah to the extent that I I
5:38:29don't know where those six locations are
5:38:31in the kind of the sequence of time uh
5:38:36but um we' moved forward with those so
5:38:38yeah some cost would have been
5:38:40incurred but centry link has provided no
5:38:44invoice or other evidence of the costs
5:38:46that have already been spent on these
5:38:48projects not to my knowledge no but they
5:38:52are included here they're included in
5:38:56our overall
5:38:59project well we don't know what those
5:39:02are well the you you don't know what
5:39:06those are you
5:39:08yeah I I don't I I I know I can look at
5:39:11the the exhibit and see what the costs
5:39:15are per
5:39:16location uh um but I I don't have the
5:39:21the specific uh costing tool output of
5:39:25that well and even if you knew
5:39:28the particular locations you wouldn't
5:39:31know a distinguish from what's estimated
5:39:34going forward versus what's already been
5:39:35spent
5:39:37I don't know that
5:39:39correct um during your examination with
5:39:42Miss old me you indicated you were
5:39:43seeking cost associated with the
5:39:45management of diverse Last Mile
5:39:47connection as part of the
5:39:50plan I'm sorry could you say that
5:39:53again when you were talking with uh Miss
5:39:55old me um you had stated you were
5:39:59seeking cost recovery for cost
5:40:02associated with the management of the
5:40:05diverse Last Mile connection as part of
5:40:08the
5:40:09plan um
5:40:11yes I know those are ongoing or onetime
5:40:14costs those are
5:40:17ongoing um but again there's no
5:40:20breakdown of what those costs
5:40:25are the so the the the pricing for the
5:40:32the the sentury link provided locations
5:40:36in the ethernet bill
5:40:38um come from already existing contract
5:40:40pricing in Colorado so we're we're using
5:40:45um uh pricing for 10 Meg ethernet
5:40:48service that is um um has been available
5:40:52for a while and it's already been vetted
5:40:55the the price for uh the third party um
5:41:00providers in the ethernet project uh
5:41:04were the was the price from the third
5:41:06party with um the
5:41:0910.5 for the margin uh added to
5:41:15that but again these are ongoing costs
5:41:18and presumably they're going to go on
5:41:19longer than the two-year Improvement
5:41:21plan they will go on as long as we're
5:41:24providing service to the baps that they
5:41:26are on definitely ongoing
5:41:29costs but you're
5:41:33only you're seeking only to cover
5:41:37a year or two years of those costs so um
5:41:41the way I would look at it is when you
5:41:43look at the the NRC portion of the
5:41:46ethernet upgrade project the $1.7
5:41:48million of build we're seeking to get
5:41:51recovery of those costs those upfront
5:41:53costs over the the 12 month or 24 months
5:41:57whatever is provided but that's the NRC
5:42:00part that's The Upfront part the ongoing
5:42:02costs for the service itself we're
5:42:06asking to be recovered each month as
5:42:08long as we're providing the
5:42:11service so are the are the are the
5:42:15ongoing management cost of those those
5:42:17included exclusively in
5:42:20the
5:42:21MRC
5:42:24correct correct so I'll give you an
5:42:26example U within the cost uh of a
5:42:30service like 911 service in in col
5:42:33Colorado includes our netork Network
5:42:36operation group and so the the cost of
5:42:40of of of of of monitoring the network
5:42:43and then um responding if if an issue
5:42:46happens the the cost of upgrading the
5:42:49equipment we need over time uh there
5:42:52there's there there's several costs that
5:42:54are just simply ongoing when you deliver
5:42:57a service and that's what we've included
5:42:59in the MRC piece of the ethernet upgrade
5:43:04project thank you for that clarification
5:43:08um and specifically related to The Last
5:43:10Mile diversity um I'll call them
5:43:13projects projects within the project I
5:43:15guess um
5:43:18but the central leag proposes to lease
5:43:21access to other providers networks is
5:43:23that
5:43:24correct correct in in some situations to
5:43:27have that secondary path
5:43:30in and we had looked at the chart before
5:43:33that confidential exhibit B um again we
5:43:37don't need to pull it up I don't think
5:43:39um but that last column is the least
5:43:43costs
5:43:44for leasing from third parties is that
5:43:47correct that's
5:43:49correct it's the NRC well it's the NRC
5:43:52portion of it so correct the last column
5:43:54is the NRC portion of it correct the NRC
5:43:57thank you
5:43:58um and
5:44:00then um those lease costs get put into
5:44:04your total the total cost for the
5:44:07ethernet upgrade project um and then
5:44:10they're you're charging a 6% overhead on
5:44:15that
5:44:17Lee um is that
5:44:22correct uh no just the 10% 10.5%
5:44:28markup
5:44:30so and the non-recurring costs those as
5:44:34you just said those lease costs are
5:44:35added to the total which is reflected in
5:44:37this master chart that total is then the
5:44:426% is added on top of that so you're
5:44:45you're charging a overhead on the
5:44:48lease so um we are for the non-recurring
5:44:54the non-recurring charges we're charging
5:44:56that's all I'm talking about is
5:44:56non-recurring yeah yes we are charging
5:44:59the 6% for the non-recurring charges but
5:45:02there is a monthly recurring lease cost
5:45:06from comp
5:45:07from GTE to Lumen for the ongoing
5:45:12availability of the facilities that
5:45:14they're providing and uh to that cost
5:45:19we've applied the 10.5 margin factor
5:45:22to well the 10.5 is also applied to the
5:45:26lease
5:45:29cost um well and that's on top of the
5:45:33overhead that's being charged let's
5:45:35let's just go back to
5:45:37the
5:45:38overhead so we're talking about lease
5:45:41and there's no shipping and handling
5:45:43costs on a lease is
5:45:45there so uh uh there can be there can be
5:45:51if there's equipment that's has to be
5:45:53shipped on site to do some activity um
5:45:57as we said before we didn't study the
5:46:00specific overhead cost to this specific
5:46:03proposal what we what we've identified
5:46:06is historically we know there's going to
5:46:08be overhead costs and so we have factors
5:46:12that we use to calculate those overhead
5:46:14costs so we can use them in in
5:46:17calculations like
5:46:19this but there has been no
5:46:21identification of what the actual
5:46:22overhead cost are for a lease just a
5:46:26lease to
5:46:28access the um third party providers so
5:46:33um I think the way to look at this is
5:46:36there's a por
5:46:37of of delivering the service to the psap
5:46:40there's a portion that GTE provides
5:46:44we're leasing the fiber from them and we
5:46:48pay them for that um but we're also
5:46:51providing the service of ethernet across
5:46:54that connection so there are going to be
5:46:56overhead
5:46:58charges that um uh we're going to incur
5:47:01and and and they can they can be uh
5:47:05different charges in different
5:47:07situations but but we're going to incur
5:47:09those okay but the amount that the
5:47:12overhead is getting charged using to
5:47:15determine and being charged against is
5:47:18the least just the lease cost straight
5:47:22lease here's how much you're paying to
5:47:24get access to the fiber so just as a
5:47:27matter of clarification when you say
5:47:29lease cost do you mean the monthly
5:47:30recurring lease cost or The Upfront
5:47:33nonrecurring cost we're going to have to
5:47:35pay because I only talking about
5:47:37non-recurring okay so we yes we've
5:47:40applied a 6% factor to that
5:47:42non-recurring cost and again you
5:47:47have this and what we're talking about
5:47:49the lease cost this is the cost paying
5:47:52just like you pay rent or anywhere else
5:47:55to lease you are just paying an amount
5:47:58to access get access to that fiber so
5:48:01this is It's the cost of the
5:48:03construction that we're paying uh G
5:48:07to if if there is a construction cost
5:48:10and there isn't always a construction
5:48:12cost it's the cost of the equipment that
5:48:15they'll have to put on premise um um and
5:48:20yeah we're we're applying a 6% factor to
5:48:23that okay so so you're suggesting that
5:48:26shipping and handling sales tax none of
5:48:28that's included
5:48:30in the lease
5:48:33cost um or you just don't know don't
5:48:37know I I I don't know that's why we use
5:48:38a factor because we have to use a factor
5:48:41to estimate what we think the cost will
5:48:43be well there's just been no breakdown
5:48:44or actual analysis of these costs at all
5:48:48not specific to these projects sure
5:48:51correct okay
5:48:54um and
5:48:58so give me a second your honor
5:49:12I think that's all the questions I have
5:49:14thank
5:49:19you all right okay we got about 12
5:49:22minutes I'm gonna ask you some questions
5:49:23Mr Carlson because I got to take a break
5:49:25at 3:30 and so you're G about 12 minutes
5:49:28of questions maybe maybe less okay okay
5:49:33uh M old was talked about the concur
5:49:36sessions and uh and the 600 versus 620
5:49:40why are we using the 600 as opposed to
5:49:43the 620 since that's a more recent
5:49:45number that's been used by company so um
5:49:49so if we look at each each uh situation
5:49:52separately so the the the concurrent
5:49:56sessions of 600 that we're recommending
5:49:59is for the the monthly recurring charge
5:50:02for the ethernet project and it's a
5:50:06charge that will continue on um it'll be
5:50:11year three year four year five and so it
5:50:14will it will function exactly like the
5:50:16charge we are already have in place for
5:50:18the EET which is the net a network and
5:50:21the charge that we have already in place
5:50:24for uh a solution that we provide called
5:50:26ecaps which is an analytic solution they
5:50:29will all use 600 it'll be a common
5:50:32denominator that if in the future there
5:50:35is a a rebalancing of the rate uh we
5:50:38have all the services that are providing
5:50:40to to 911 operating with a with a common
5:50:45um a a a concurrent session count so
5:50:49that's the MRC for the ethernet project
5:50:52for the build projects it's a fixed
5:50:55duration it's we're recommending 12
5:50:57months it could be two years it could be
5:50:59something else but it's a fixed duration
5:51:02so not subject to rebalancing over time
5:51:05so in that case
5:51:07the recommendation was to use 623 which
5:51:09is the actual count at this point so
5:51:12that's the logic behind two
5:51:15different um U uh factors didn't you
5:51:20just use 620 for both or 623 for both of
5:51:23them to keep to keep them I mean your
5:51:27logic seemed to be that we want to keep
5:51:28them all the same on the first one I
5:51:29mean you could keep them all the same if
5:51:31it was 623 too couldn't you I mean well
5:51:34it depends on which problem you want to
5:51:36solve for so uh you know but so we we're
5:51:40choosing to solve the problem of let's
5:51:42keep it consistent with what we already
5:51:44have out there all right uh hey Miss
5:51:47Federico could you uh get that last
5:51:49chart up there that I'm sure Mr
5:51:51Carlson's just enjoyed looking at all
5:51:53day uh uh is that
5:51:57sd4 some yeah with the with the 12 month
5:52:00or 12 or 24 month um
5:52:05breakdown uh Mr Cox which one did you
5:52:07have up there I like that one I couldn't
5:52:09I was trying to remember it yes hearing
5:52:12is up at 10 one1 attachment std4 yeah
5:52:16okay that's good is this the right page
5:52:20yeah that work that's fine um
5:52:24so I got tell you Mr Carlson the one
5:52:27thing I've heard people asked and and Mr
5:52:30Cox was all over the second go as his
5:52:32overhead costs and I got tell you what
5:52:34you've done a marvelous job of t dancing
5:52:37and word salads on what actually falls
5:52:39into that overhead cost and I want to
5:52:41congratulate you on that but I want to
5:52:42know something sometimes it's
5:52:43engineering cost sometimes it's not
5:52:45engineering cost sometimes it's shipping
5:52:47cost sometimes it's not what actually is
5:52:49in that
5:52:50Barrel so um I can give you examples of
5:52:54that um I want to know what's in the
5:52:56barrel I want to know exactly what's in
5:52:58that
5:52:59Barrel um and and if I had that
5:53:01information I would I would give it to
5:53:03you um I I would tell you that we
5:53:06haven't we've done a study to to
5:53:09understand what the build costs are
5:53:11we've done a study to figure out what
5:53:12the equipment costs are and we have
5:53:15quotes and models that factor in all the
5:53:18things that you need to know in order to
5:53:20get to those amounts but we don't have a
5:53:23way of knowing exactly what the overhead
5:53:26costs are going to be for a particular
5:53:29project and the only option we have is
5:53:32to use a historic factor to estimate it
5:53:35and that's a that that's what we've done
5:53:37here yeah but but here's my problem with
5:53:39that is I just kind of want to know what
5:53:40historically if you're looking at it
5:53:42historically you should historically
5:53:43know what goes into those things and so
5:53:46you should be able to to to spit out
5:53:48this goes in that goes in that doesn't
5:53:50go in um because that's how you find
5:53:53that out that's how I mean if you
5:53:54historically know it comes out to this
5:53:56percentage you historically must know
5:53:58what goes in there shouldn't you uh you
5:54:00know what I think that's a fair question
5:54:02and um I I just I just don't have that
5:54:05information of aable to me okay let me
5:54:08ask you this one and this is one thing
5:54:09you mentioned a couple times here and I
5:54:10think you think it's a good point but it
5:54:12doesn't it doesn't work for me as a good
5:54:13point is you said hey you know what
5:54:15we're using that 6% overhead you know in
5:54:18other cases we used
5:54:198.75 well you know what that tells me
5:54:21when you say I mean I think you're
5:54:22telling me that to say listen we're
5:54:24really cutting you a good deal here but
5:54:26what that makes it sound to me like is
5:54:28you're just making it up why don't you
5:54:29cut us a better deal and make it
5:54:32three I mean why is that I mean how does
5:54:35that that that that that's the way that
5:54:37came across to me I mean why was the 1
5:54:391875 because you've historically looked
5:54:41at this stuff right um you know I don't
5:54:45have a good answer for you on that to be
5:54:47honest I mean I think that um if I was
5:54:50to go back a couple of weeks and and and
5:54:53be a part of the conversation then the
5:54:55factor would have been
5:54:568.76 so uh that's the factor that was
5:54:59chosen to use at this time so that's a
5:55:01factor we're going to use but I
5:55:03appreciate what you're saying I I think
5:55:05if if I could take 6% and break it down
5:55:08into all the subp parts relevant to
5:55:10these projects then we would have
5:55:12complete Clarity here so I uh I I
5:55:15appreciate the question that you're
5:55:17asking and let me ask you this one I I
5:55:19mean when I look at that again I look at
5:55:21the Burlington Lamar equipment project
5:55:23well we've got no build
5:55:25costs and I look at the one right next
5:55:28to it the cida Howard fiber project and
5:55:30we've got
5:55:3263766 4,000 in build costs yet our
5:55:36overhead percentage wise is exactly the
5:55:40same I mean is there no differentiation
5:55:42between the projects whether there's a
5:55:44build cost or not it's just I mean it
5:55:48just seems like a number you're throwing
5:55:49at me why is that not why is there not a
5:55:50difference on that you know I I I think
5:55:53in reality there certainly could be a
5:55:55difference in specific overheads related
5:55:58to the Bild cost which is really fiber
5:56:01it's the the fiber piece of it uh and
5:56:03then the equipment which is the optical
5:56:05electronic
5:56:07um there there probably would be um more
5:56:11more um um overheads or related to the
5:56:14equipment cost be that theoretically but
5:56:17we just we don't have a factor that
5:56:19splits It Out by type of of cost and so
5:56:22we end up having a an aggregate factor
5:56:25that we apply to the totals like we did
5:56:28here well but when I look at the law
5:56:30that I have or the rule that I have to
5:56:31to to follow here you're supposed to
5:56:33provide a firm estimated cost
5:56:36now you know I mean again I would just
5:56:39assume that if there's no build costs in
5:56:41something and there is build costs in
5:56:43another one which is over a half a
5:56:45million dollars that the overhead would
5:56:47probably be greater in the other one um
5:56:51and so is that firm that or is that just
5:56:53throwing a number on
5:56:55it um you know I I'm not I'm not being
5:56:59flippant here sir I I'm not sure the
5:57:01definition of firm so so what I would
5:57:04say is we have to provide our best um
5:57:09solid um estimate of what the costs are
5:57:12with the with the factors that we
5:57:14typically use um I I do would not expect
5:57:18you know we're certainly not
5:57:20anticipating it you know the overheads
5:57:23um going more than that and and not
5:57:25anticipating um you know coming back at
5:57:28you know and saying well let's revisit
5:57:30that okay well and again don't don't
5:57:32worry about being flipping on that I
5:57:34don't know what it means either yeah uh
5:57:36I mean that's that's what I got to
5:57:37figure out and that's what um why I'm
5:57:39trying to figure out whether you whether
5:57:41you think that's firm if there's that
5:57:43difference in there uh between the
5:57:46projects uh the next one I want to ask
5:57:48you about on this is the capital costs
5:57:51and again it just seems odd to me that
5:57:54the capital costs in year one and year
5:57:56two would be exactly the same wouldn't
5:58:00there be a lesser Capital cost in year
5:58:03two well um not not necessarily um I I
5:58:08mean I guess the the idea of of this
5:58:13information here is to is to recognize
5:58:15that um you know costs will start
5:58:18getting incurred as as we U spend
5:58:21capital on these projects and um we
5:58:24don't know the the exact timing of of
5:58:28when the projects are going to start I
5:58:30mean we're recommending as soon as
5:58:31possible um but um the factor that we've
5:58:35received to apply against the the um the
5:58:38capital
5:58:39investment um is um you know what you
5:58:42see here and um you know our
5:58:45calculations just use those factors um
5:58:47you know in both years so if we I'm
5:58:51sorry again again I mean trust me I'm
5:58:54about as lazy as it gets but that kind
5:58:56of looks lazy to me to use that same 15%
5:58:59I've got to think it's got to be a
5:59:00decreased Capital cost in year two um
5:59:05and again that's fine to to put that in
5:59:07there but these are the numbers that are
5:59:08going to be used to determine uh what
5:59:11costs that rate payers are going to pay
5:59:13and um you know when it's an obvious one
5:59:16to me I just kind of question why it's
5:59:18not why it's not lower but what what's
5:59:21the rationel behind
5:59:23it um I guess the rationale would be
5:59:26that you know we're just applying the
5:59:28same factor in both years this is for
5:59:30two years if we you know obviously if we
5:59:33uh recover the cost in one year then
5:59:36uh there's only only one one year
5:59:40applied but wouldn't you but you don't
5:59:43wouldn't you agree that the capital
5:59:45costs are more than likely going to be
5:59:46less in year two if it goes to a
5:59:49two-year I I I think that's I think
5:59:51that's potential and I I think there's a
5:59:54potential for that that they could be
5:59:55different um it just you know the way we
5:59:59would understand the difference would be
6:00:01by going through kind of a
6:00:02month-by-month calculation of when the
6:00:05capital spend happened and and uh you
6:00:08know what the tax implications are and
6:00:11you know the other pieces that go into
6:00:12that factor but yeah I I I I understand
6:00:16what you're
6:00:17saying okay um and I told you I would be
6:00:20done and I think 12 minutes and I think
6:00:23I have like about 30 seconds left and
6:00:25there it goes uh we will take a 15
6:00:28minute break and uh then Mr Carlson
6:00:32apart from redirect you're going to be
6:00:34done we'll be back in 15 to
6:00:37345 sounds
6:01:04good
6:01:34e
6:02:04e
6:02:34e
6:03:04e
6:03:34e
6:04:04e
6:04:34e
6:05:04e
6:05:34e
6:06:04e
6:06:34e
6:07:04e
6:07:34e
6:08:04e
6:08:34e
6:09:04e
6:09:34e
6:10:04e
6:10:34e
6:11:04e
6:11:34e
6:12:04e
6:12:34e
6:13:04e
6:13:34e
6:14:04e
6:14:34e e
6:15:30all right
6:15:35Tracy you hear
6:15:38me I can hear you all
6:15:41righty uh we shall go back on the record
6:15:44with proceeding 23 a-01
6:15:47197t and Mr Carlson I am quite sure you
6:15:50remember this but you're still on the
6:15:51record or you're still under oath Excuse
6:15:53me yes sir right and so now is there any
6:15:58redirect uh there is your honor um I
6:16:01just want on redirect I think I just
6:16:02want to do two things just for Shadow
6:16:05I'm going to ask Mr um Carlson to talk a
6:16:08little bit about the monthly recurring
6:16:09charge associated with the uh ethernet
6:16:13upgrade and then I'm going to show him
6:16:15some uh cost support documents for uh
6:16:19the E ethernet um um project as well
6:16:23just to have him verify them uh because
6:16:25they were
6:16:26not submitted as attachments um so those
6:16:30are the two things I'm planning on doing
6:16:32so if I could start first uh Miss fedo
6:16:36if you could pull up exhibit 110
6:16:51again thank
6:16:53you all right
6:16:56um Mr Carlson you would uh I think
6:17:00received some questions from M older
6:17:02concerning uh this document and uh the
6:17:06uh the purpose of it and and the charge
6:17:08that would uh come as a result you
6:17:10recall that yes I do okay and just to
6:17:13set the background for some of these
6:17:14questions can you just remind everybody
6:17:17uh what this document is um so this
6:17:20document shows uh the calculation for
6:17:23the monthly recurring rate element for
6:17:27the the the ethernet project okay and
6:17:32this is for um is this what C are you
6:17:35seeking to recovery here so it's it's
6:17:38the ongoing costs that are um uh uh are
6:17:43incurred by offering ethernet uh
6:17:46services in uh to these P apps and and
6:17:51the cost not only the cost that uh
6:17:54Sentry Link incurs on a monthly
6:17:56recurring basis internally but also uh
6:18:00costs that we pay to the third party
6:18:02vendors who are providing the underlying
6:18:04access okay and I think in connection
6:18:07with Mr Cox's questions you'd identified
6:18:09those underlying providers as being
6:18:11either Comcast or gt is that right
6:18:13that's correct okay um so and just to
6:18:16reiterate you there Comcast and GT T
6:18:20also charge have is it GT or GTE gtt
6:18:24okay all right make sure I get that
6:18:25straight also has a non-recurring uh
6:18:27element to it to the charges as well is
6:18:29that right it does and can you explain a
6:18:31little bit what the what the
6:18:32non-recurring charges are for versus
6:18:33what the recurring charges are for so
6:18:35the non-recurring charges um for the
6:18:39thirdparty providers are basically two
6:18:41parts if they have to uh build their
6:18:44fiber out to a piece application then
6:18:47there's a non-recurring charge for that
6:18:49uh and then there's a non-recurring
6:18:51charge for the equipment that is has to
6:18:54be purchased at the um at the site for
6:18:57the build so um but those are upfront in
6:19:00nature they're not recurring in nature
6:19:02that's why they're called non-recurring
6:19:04CHS okay and is it accurate to say all
6:19:06the costs for those non-recurring
6:19:07charges are included in that $1.7
6:19:10million figure you had for uh for the
6:19:12ethernet that's correct okay and in that
6:19:14$1.7 million are are the Sentry Link
6:19:17charges that or costs I'm sorry that
6:19:19it's going to incur for building also
6:19:21included correct okay correct and so
6:19:23what we're looking at right now are
6:19:25recurring charges is that right exactly
6:19:28and this is for the product correct and
6:19:30and that product is going to be ethernet
6:19:32essentially that's correct and and these
6:19:34costs that are reflected here in
6:19:35provisioning the product are a
6:19:37combination of both the charges that you
6:19:39receive from third parties and the
6:19:42charges that when they have the when
6:19:44they provide the access and then they're
6:19:46also charges that Sentry Link or cost
6:19:49centry link incurs providing the project
6:19:51itself right that's correct now these
6:19:55are you aware of the fact I think this
6:19:56was mentioned by Miss old that staff um
6:19:59opposes the inclusion of these costs yes
6:20:03I'm aware of that okay and is it
6:20:05understanding that they take the
6:20:05position that it's not necessarily that
6:20:08these costs are inappropriate it's just
6:20:10inappropriate to award in this doc
6:20:12that's my understanding okay and and can
6:20:16you explain a little bit about what your
6:20:18what your response is to that um yeah so
6:20:21um given the recurring nature of of
6:20:24these costs the only way for Lumen to
6:20:27provide that ethernet service the only
6:20:29way for Lumen to U uh enable the peaps
6:20:33to have the future Uh current and and
6:20:36future capabilities that ethernet brings
6:20:40uh is we have to have our costs recurred
6:20:42on a monthly per recurring basis for as
6:20:45long as we're providing service which
6:20:46could be you know for however long we're
6:20:49the bsp and the the 911 provider in the
6:20:52state so if we don't uh receive uh
6:20:56recovery of those costs going forward
6:20:57then we can't provide the
6:20:59service and and so I mean are you you
6:21:02feel like you're in a situation where if
6:21:05you don't get these costs approved now
6:21:08uh and and you later don't have your
6:21:10tariff approved you're in a situation
6:21:12where you've incur the non-recurring
6:21:13charges pass those to the raid payers
6:21:15and that's and then can't provide the
6:21:17service um I I think you have to look at
6:21:20both of them together that um the the
6:21:24way the the information is has been
6:21:27identified is to provide the the service
6:21:30that we were talking about here ethernet
6:21:32provided in a diverse way you you have
6:21:34to have the certain amount of
6:21:36non-recurring charges to enable that but
6:21:38then you need to have the month
6:21:39recurring charges you you have to have
6:21:41them
6:21:42both and and do you have a Viewpoint if
6:21:45if uh if if the court were or the
6:21:48commission were to agree with staff's
6:21:50position that includ approving this uh
6:21:54monthly
6:21:55recurring rate in the Tariff was beyond
6:21:58the scope of this proceeding but the
6:22:01commission nevertheless approved the the
6:22:04cost Rec recovery for non-recurring
6:22:05charges what would what would centry
6:22:07link
6:22:08do um you know I think we would have to
6:22:11evaluate the whole the whole proposal
6:22:14and and look at it from um um you know a
6:22:19different perspective and and and and
6:22:21see if if if if we're stranding
6:22:24investment out there in the
6:22:25non-recurring by not having the the
6:22:27service cost taken care of on the month
6:22:29of recurring side
6:22:32okay I'm G to move off the the monthly
6:22:35recurring charts then um I'm going to at
6:22:40this point show I've been asked to show
6:22:42the witness some uh confidential
6:22:45documents I believe all the all the
6:22:47remainder part of his testimony will be
6:22:49confidential because I'll be going back
6:22:50and forth between confidential documents
6:22:53so if I could ask to have those
6:22:55procedures put in place yeah just give
6:22:58me a few
6:23:01minutes before whether we're going out
6:23:03of confidential then I I was really good
6:23:05about it too proud of myself and then I
6:23:08forgot once it was
6:23:23obvious all right we're all set okay I'm
6:23:26not miss SC I'm not gonna have you get
6:23:27reentered in there I don't think we're
6:23:29too far into your testimony that your
6:23:31testimony has been admitted into the
6:23:33record here so uh you may
6:23:37continue um and Miss C I think you were
6:23:39saying that you don't recall exactly how
6:23:41many of those uh meetings were held is
6:23:44that right that's correct okay is if
6:23:48I in Mr Do's testimony it said that
6:23:51there were at least nine is that
6:23:52consistent with your
6:23:54recollection that sounds
6:23:58right um and uh at during those meetings
6:24:02you had the opportunity to uh present uh
6:24:06any ideas uh for of Le for creating uh
6:24:10Network improvements isn't that correct
6:24:13that's not how I recall the meetings
6:24:15were
6:24:15held so you you do you not agree that
6:24:19you did do you believe you did not have
6:24:20the opportunity to present your own uh
6:24:23or Lita's
6:24:25proposals that's correct okay and and
6:24:28what stopped Lita from providing its own
6:24:30proposals during those meetings centry
6:24:32link came forward with their ideas of
6:24:35projects and presented those to
6:24:39stakeholders and and L presented none
6:24:42correct that's correct centry link
6:24:44presented the
6:24:46projects um I want to uh uh take you to
6:24:52um the first opinion uh that you
6:24:55expressed uh in your testimony and uh
6:24:58just for the record I'm referring to um
6:25:01hearing exhibit uh 600
6:25:06uh opinion number one which is on page
6:25:1012
6:25:13um and uh just remind you what that
6:25:16opinion was I'll just read it quickly
6:25:17and then ask you oh well we can do it
6:25:20together excellent thank
6:25:23you it
6:25:27uh says uh when the intended purpose of
6:25:30a project is to create a secondary path
6:25:32for 911 calls third party facilities
6:25:35should be fully and fairly vetted as
6:25:37alternatives to the proposed new middle
6:25:40mile fiper builds given the potential
6:25:42benefits such as reduction in cost and
6:25:45shorten timeline to implementation do
6:25:47you see that I do okay is it your
6:25:50opinion that um Sentry Link in this
6:25:54docket would be eligible to recover uh
6:25:58leasing costs from third parties for
6:26:01facilities that go beyond two years
6:26:14I think it
6:26:17depends and can you give us some of the
6:26:19factors that you think it may depend on
6:26:22so from a if there is a opportunity to
6:26:27share lease infrastructure there may not
6:26:30be a cost so I think it depends it's
6:26:33hard to just give a blanket statement to
6:26:35say that any cost recovery of a lease is
6:26:38fair there could be a lot of
6:26:40arrangements that would that should be
6:26:43fully
6:26:45vetted um I don't have any further
6:26:51questions all right um and I just got I
6:26:54just got maybe five be real simple um
6:26:59the how the Howard fiber build it's slid
6:27:03it should that be should I approve that
6:27:05or should I not approve
6:27:07that I do not believe sir that you
6:27:10should approve that okay Central City
6:27:12fiber build should I approve that or not
6:27:14approve
6:27:15that I also believe that that should be
6:27:18denied uh Lamar Electronics middle mile
6:27:21diversity approve or not approve as
6:27:24presented I believe that should be
6:27:25denied portable generator fuel trailer
6:27:28approve or not approve I believe that
6:27:30should be denied ethernet upgrade with
6:27:33Last Mile diversity
6:27:34approve or not approve it is my opinion
6:27:36that should be denied do you think it's
6:27:39better to do you think that the 911
6:27:41system in Colorado will be better off if
6:27:43these are not
6:27:45approved as presented by Sentry Link and
6:27:48the convoluted pricing that we have been
6:27:52presented with and the information
6:27:54presented on the middle mile fiber build
6:27:56or lack thereof I believe Colorado would
6:27:59be better off at this time not approving
6:28:02these projects to allow the stakeholders
6:28:05to fully vet
6:28:07them if this delays these projects going
6:28:10into place Say by five years is that a
6:28:13good thing bad
6:28:17thing from a a blanket statement um I do
6:28:21believe that backup power is critical
6:28:25but I do not believe that cost should be
6:28:27bared by
6:28:289911 so there's I mean there's a lot of
6:28:31different pieces as it pertains to these
6:28:33projects that I think could strengthen
6:28:35an infrastructure like having a
6:28:37generator but that is a cost that I
6:28:39believe centry link should have to fund
6:28:41and not the 911
6:28:42Community but if it's a critical need
6:28:45doesn't it need to be done as quickly as
6:28:48possible if it's a critical need that
6:28:51should bear the cost of 911 perhaps but
6:28:54I think we need to be able to fully vet
6:28:56and understand the cost to understand if
6:28:59911 should pay 100% of cost for a
6:29:02for-profit company
6:29:05how much time do we have to take to
6:29:07figure that out for a critical need or
6:29:09what's what's the most amount of time we
6:29:11can take to figure that out for a
6:29:13critical
6:29:16need your honor I think that is a
6:29:19critical question and it's one that I'm
6:29:20faced with in 911 all the time we have
6:29:23risks we have to accept risk we have to
6:29:25mitigate risks and we have to understand
6:29:27where we're putting our crucial efforts
6:29:30and in this case I believe that the 911
6:29:33Community and specifically the EET users
6:29:35group should come in partnership with
6:29:38Sentry Link to identify projects in a
6:29:41timeline a reasonable timeline and bring
6:29:44critical Partners to the table to
6:29:46research
6:29:47Solutions so that may take 6 months 12
6:29:50months 18 months but as we build on the
6:29:54Tariff and we have this critical cost we
6:29:56have to be fiscally responsible and do
6:29:58our due diligence and most importantly
6:30:01make sure we're fixing the problem we
6:30:03may say we have middle mile fiber but as
6:30:05we've heard today it may all DeMark at
6:30:08the same physical location so we still
6:30:10have single points of failure so if we
6:30:12really want to improve and fix the
6:30:15infrastructure we need to understand
6:30:17truly what we're fixing the
6:30:19infrastructure we're fixing and make
6:30:20sure we're spending good money and not
6:30:22wasting that precious resource of our
6:30:25community you know and and that's the
6:30:27problem I have is that I have to figure
6:30:29out that that balance there because if
6:30:31you delay projects like this so we
6:30:33delaying
6:30:34um or do we have failures that happen
6:30:36and and then 911 service is not there
6:30:39when necessary and um it's it's a
6:30:43difficult decision thank you um any
6:30:49redirect I do your honor just briefly I
6:30:52want to go back um m c to the questions
6:30:57about uh critical need did there come a
6:31:02time where you in your role as a
6:31:06professional actually put in writing
6:31:09your
6:31:10requests that would go to centry link
6:31:14and were sent to centry link for
6:31:16purposes of developing the 2024
6:31:18Improvement plan
6:31:25content extensively yes and we submitted
6:31:29a document and I believe that document
6:31:31is on file
6:31:34and when you say we are you referring to
6:31:36whom I'm sorry
6:31:39Lita um did ccoa well do you know what
6:31:41ccoa is yes ccoa is Colorado Council of
6:31:45authorities and are you involved in that
6:31:48agency I am I'm the chair and to your
6:31:51knowledge did ccoa ever provide a
6:31:54document titled ccoa
6:31:56input yes ccoa did and that was on
6:31:59behalf of the ccoa members which I
6:32:02believe at the time we had 21 members I
6:32:06think we have 22 now but at the time we
6:32:08submitted that document it did reflect
6:32:10all of our members that were present and
6:32:13was that um something submitted to
6:32:15Century Link in the fall of 2023 yes it
6:32:18was and was that expressing what the
6:32:21governing bodies that you identified the
6:32:2321 governing bodies who are members of
6:32:25ccoa identified as critical needs for
6:32:28improving the basic emergency service
6:32:30network in Colorado yes that was the
6:32:33purpose of the
6:32:35document no further
6:32:38questions all right Miss cup thank you
6:32:40very much you may go about your rest of
6:32:43your day thank you for I don't know how
6:32:44long you're waiting around but I do
6:32:46appreciate you waiting I do appreciate
6:32:48your testimony very much thank you your
6:32:50honor okay ccoa may call its
6:32:54witness um at this time we would call
6:32:57Andrew
6:33:00Damron Damron raise your right hand for
6:33:02me you swear AFF firm tell the whole
6:33:04truth nothing but the truth under
6:33:05penalty of perjury I do all right go
6:33:09right ahead Miss old good afternoon Mr
6:33:11Damron could you please State your full
6:33:14name and spell your last name for the
6:33:15record Andrew Damron d m r o n and uh
6:33:21are you currently employed sir yes I am
6:33:24where are you employed the City and
6:33:26County of
6:33:27Denver and um do you have a title I do
6:33:30director of Denver 911 did you partici
6:33:33ipate in written developing written
6:33:36testimony for the Colorado Council of
6:33:38authorities Inc I did for purposes of
6:33:41this Improvement plan proceeding I did
6:33:45we would offer hearing exhibit
6:33:51700 any objection to
6:33:53700 hearing none 700 shall be
6:33:58admitted um if you could please pull up
6:34:07attachment
6:34:09ad3 to hearing exit at
6:34:24700 um Mr Damron were you online when um
6:34:28Mrs cul testified on behalf of Lita yes
6:34:31I was and did you he hear her refer to a
6:34:34document um ccoa sent to centry link in
6:34:37the fall of 2023 yes I did is attachment
6:34:41ad3 that document I believe so
6:34:48yes with respect to um attachment
6:34:57[Music]
6:34:58ad2 are you asking that one to be pulled
6:35:00up yes please I'm sorry
6:35:19this is a a exhibit entitled voice of
6:35:22Colorado Council of authorities Inc in
6:35:25proceeding number
6:35:2723-197 T are you familiar with that yes
6:35:30I am does that Express the requests of
6:35:3520 governing bodies in Colorado as to
6:35:39the projects that are proposed at an
6:35:41issue in this case yes it does I don't
6:35:44have any further
6:35:48questions all right any
6:35:53cross-examination yes thank you uh good
6:35:57afternoon Mr D how are you doing well
6:35:59thank you good good um
6:36:04uh M uh Federico if you don't mind
6:36:06pulling up uh again attachment ad3 to uh
6:36:10exhibit
6:36:17700
6:36:19um Mr Dam this is a this is an
6:36:21attachment to your testimony correct yes
6:36:25it was all right it's called the input
6:36:27of Colorado Council of authorities is
6:36:29that correct yes it is okay um
6:36:34um what projects or proposals are
6:36:38included uh in this document for uh
6:36:41sentury link to consider in connection
6:36:43with the network Improvement
6:37:01plan well again uh um to uh Echo someone
6:37:06previously not to be fit but I guess it
6:37:08depends on your definition of a project
6:37:10this document
6:37:12requests um assessment of the network as
6:37:16it exists including a comprehensive
6:37:19accounting for all single points of
6:37:20failure I would uh Cate if you
6:37:23categorize that as a project that is one
6:37:25of the things that it
6:37:27recommends okay so is it accurate to say
6:37:30that this this document represents a
6:37:33request for
6:37:34information yes okay but within this
6:37:39document there is not a single defined
6:37:42uh Network Improvement project that you
6:37:44were recommending uh Lumen to undertake
6:37:47is there
6:37:48no and um Lumen did respond I'm sorry
6:37:52centry link did respond to this uh to to
6:37:55this input is that correct I believe so
6:37:58yes yeah and you you state your
6:38:00testimony that there was a response is
6:38:02that correct yes yeah and on page 15 of
6:38:06your testimony you you you quote from
6:38:08that response
6:38:16correct yes that is correct uh but you
6:38:19didn't attach the response why
6:38:27not I don't know okay um M fedo can you
6:38:32pull up exhibit uh 111 please and it is
6:38:35not confidential it's also and it is
6:38:53Mark and if you could reduce the scope a
6:38:55little bit there you go
6:38:59um this uh is this the uh this document
6:39:03I'll just readed to the record is
6:39:04entitled response of CR Corporation DBA
6:39:06Century Link QC to September 23 20123
6:39:11informal information request issued by
6:39:14Colorado Council of authorities Inc and
6:39:16others do you see that yes I do okay and
6:39:19uh is this the is this the document to
6:39:22which you were referring to as the
6:39:24Century Link response in your testimony
6:39:26yes it
6:39:27is and I won't go through in detail uh
6:39:31this document but um centry link did
6:39:34provide uh information uh
6:39:37to uh
6:39:39ccoa at least with regard to certain
6:39:43questions uh in this document is that
6:39:55correct I I am not sure okay uh perhaps
6:40:00we can scroll down uh this uh better we
6:40:03go maybe to um let's go to
6:40:06page
6:40:23sorry well we can start on page
6:40:26two um there's a request number one here
6:40:31um and this is do you understand these
6:40:32request to have been the uh the requests
6:40:36from CCA in the September
6:40:382023 um uh attachment uh Detachment
6:40:42three to your
6:40:58testimony I'm afraid I don't recall okay
6:41:01well I won't wa is
6:41:03as is Judge said stated earlier the
6:41:06documents will speak for themselves and
6:41:08I don't want to belabor this but um do
6:41:11you see that request or Lubin does have
6:41:13a response here underneath request
6:41:15number
6:41:16one I do see that yes okay and if we can
6:41:19scroll to the next page
6:41:23please um do you see additional requests
6:41:26here I do and do you see additional
6:41:29responses from secretary link I do okay
6:41:33um um so just to reiterate you would
6:41:36agree with me that cink did respond to
6:41:38the input provided by ccoa in advance of
6:41:42the filing of the second amended
6:41:44application I would okay i' move for
6:41:48admission of exhibit
6:41:50111 any objection to
6:41:53111 heing none 111 shall be
6:42:00admitted and I don't have any further
6:42:02questions thank you for your time this
6:42:04afternoon Mr
6:42:06Damron Mr Damron I got just a couple for
6:42:09you the same kind of ones I heard Miss
6:42:11kulpit uh and I'll just do it real
6:42:13quickly um are any of the projects
6:42:15proposed by uh Sentry Link should I
6:42:17approve any of them it is the position
6:42:20of the 20 authorities represented by
6:42:23ccoa that they should not be approved
6:42:26okay um could you point me and I forgot
6:42:29to ask Miss Culp this one can you point
6:42:30me to any um projected CA
6:42:34uh that is out of line that that causes
6:42:37great you know problems when you look at
6:42:39it as an
6:42:42estimate what I would point you to is uh
6:42:46what has been discussed I think at
6:42:48length in this hearing is the the lack
6:42:51of um transparency in how those costs
6:42:54were derived um and how that conflicts
6:42:58with the fiduciary responsibility that
6:43:00we have as authorities to our ratee
6:43:02payers
6:43:04well they they List cost for for
6:43:06instance the cost of of putting the
6:43:07fiber in in certain places is there
6:43:09anything in that estimate that that you
6:43:12look at and go my God it can't cost that
6:43:13much there there it's way too much is
6:43:15there anything like that that strikes
6:43:17you is out of line uh I do not have the
6:43:20requisite subject matter expertise to to
6:43:22know what a market value would be for
6:43:24those okay but you've not been told of
6:43:26any in your discussions with with others
6:43:29or anything like that you can't point me
6:43:30in any direction that way correct
6:43:34no sir okay
6:43:37um do you think that um if those costs
6:43:41are not out of way out of line if they
6:43:45in fact were were within a reasonable
6:43:46amount do you think the 911 system in
6:43:48Colorado would be better with these
6:43:57projects I believe the answer to that
6:43:59question is one of matter of degrees
6:44:02while the these improvements uh May
6:44:05improve the system what what is at issue
6:44:09From cca's perspective is is this the
6:44:12best use of rate rate payer funds and
6:44:15will this provide the best uh
6:44:18Improvement possible um when there are
6:44:22perhaps lower hanging fruit and more
6:44:25impactful improvements that could be
6:44:27made uh if if the uh the Colorado 911
6:44:31authorities and century link uh we able
6:44:34to uh find a bit more of a collaborative
6:44:37working relationship okay but you
6:44:39realize my choices are not this or
6:44:41something else my choices are this or
6:44:43nothing yes sir I understand that and so
6:44:47if I say no to this we're back to the
6:44:48drawing board and we're not starting
6:44:50until
6:44:532026 and so do you feel good with none
6:44:56of these projects or any projects for
6:44:58that matter it it is the position of of
6:45:01the 20 author ities represented by ccoa
6:45:04that that yes we are better off not
6:45:07approving these
6:45:08projects but the 911 system would better
6:45:10not doing anything until at least
6:45:132026 when compared to the projects as
6:45:17proposed yes sir all right that's all I
6:45:21have uh any
6:45:25redirect no redirect Jor all right Mr
6:45:28Daman thank you very much thank you for
6:45:30waiting around thank you for taking the
6:45:31questions do very much appreci
6:45:32appreciate that and you may you may go
6:45:35on your way or you can hang out if you
6:45:36want to all up to
6:45:39you all right uh staff with their
6:45:43witness Mr
6:45:44Cox thanks your honor um staff calls
6:45:47Jennifer Kirkland to the stand I'm Miss
6:45:49Kirkland you raise your right hand for
6:45:50me do you swear a firm and tell the
6:45:52whole truth nothing but the truth under
6:45:53penalty of perjury I do all right Mr Cox
6:45:56you go right ahead good afternoon Mrs
6:45:59Kirkland um could you please State and
6:46:02spell your name for the record good
6:46:04afternoon my name is Jennifer Kirkland k
6:46:06i r k l a n
6:46:09d and by whom are you employed in in
6:46:12what capacity I'm employed by the state
6:46:14of Colorado uh division of regulatory
6:46:16agencies in the Pu as the state 911
6:46:19program
6:46:21manager did you cause to be filed answer
6:46:23testimony including exhibits in this
6:46:26proceeding on June 12th um which has
6:46:29been marked as hearing exhibit 400
6:46:34did and if I asked you the questions
6:46:36that are contained in your answer
6:46:38testimony um would your answers be the
6:46:40same today they
6:46:42would staff moves to admit hearing
6:46:45exhibit 200 and its
6:46:48attachments I think he meant 400 but uh
6:46:51excuse me 400
6:46:53yes any objection to
6:46:55400 hearing none 400 shall be admitted
6:46:59and 200 for too but I don't think there
6:47:00is one thank you for
6:47:04that um and Mrs Kirkland are you
6:47:07familiar with the uh latest revised cost
6:47:10information um which we've talked about
6:47:14today um they've been marked as
6:47:16attachments
6:47:17SD 1C rev 2 and
6:47:21sd4 rev 2 to hearing exhibit 101 um as
6:47:25well as the uh additional cost
6:47:27information that was just adopted as
6:47:29exhibits by U century Link in their
6:47:35redirect yes I'm
6:47:37familiar and has that revised cost
6:47:40information and that additional cost
6:47:44information that was contained in those
6:47:46attachments and Exhibits changed your
6:47:48recommendations regarding the projects
6:47:51no it has not uh please
6:47:54explain the documentation that's been
6:47:58provided uh gives additional Clarity
6:48:02into
6:48:03why Century Link provided them there are
6:48:06still gaps in understanding what exactly
6:48:10those costs pertain
6:48:14to for
6:48:16example um in the documentation the
6:48:19number
6:48:21$551 has been referenced a couple of
6:48:24times this
6:48:25afternoon I there is still no clarity as
6:48:28to what piece of equipment that figure
6:48:31refers to so there's a lack of clarity
6:48:34as to what equipment would be placed at
6:48:36each paap in order to achieve that
6:48:40project end and that's just one
6:48:44example thank you Mrs Kirkland um your
6:48:47honor Mrs Kirkland is available for
6:48:49cross Andor your questions all right
6:48:52thank you Sentry Link any
6:48:58cross thanks judge good afternoon Miss
6:49:00Kirkman how are you I am well how how
6:49:02are you good good thank you um so um you
6:49:08gave uh I I believe in your testimony
6:49:11you had you had challenged you you
6:49:14challenged the project on the basis of
6:49:16lack of adequate cost information is
6:49:17that correct that's correct okay and and
6:49:21I think one of the um one of the areas
6:49:24in which uh you had uh challenged uh uh
6:49:29the ethernet project was in the lack of
6:49:31cost support
6:49:33for the um for for for quotes from third
6:49:38parties is that
6:49:41correct among others yes okay um I'm
6:49:45just going to break down you know and
6:49:48try to get a feel for exactly what what
6:49:50you feel like is adequately cost
6:49:51supported at this point and what's still
6:49:53remaining um based on the the doc the
6:49:57exhibits uh that were produced to you
6:49:59and and shown today to Mr Carlson
6:50:01regarding uh
6:50:03costs provided by uh third parties
6:50:06Comcast and gtt concerning non-recurring
6:50:09and recurring charges associated with
6:50:11the ethernet upgrade are you still do
6:50:14you still believe that that at least
6:50:16those elements lack adequate cost
6:50:19support yes okay um what additional cost
6:50:24information do you believe it would be
6:50:26necessary in order to support the gtt
6:50:29and uh Comcast
6:50:34charges which document do you want to
6:50:38work with for your question sure um one
6:50:42of I'd like to keep us I
6:50:45guess without getting into confidential
6:50:48material
6:50:51um there were um you recall when we
6:50:55looked
6:50:57at
6:50:58um hearing exhibit 101 attachment sd1 C
6:51:03which was the uh the list of the uh the
6:51:08wire centers associated with the
6:51:10ethernet upgrade you recall that yes I
6:51:12do okay and do you recall that in
6:51:15connection with that exhibit um centry
6:51:18link had
6:51:20identified
6:51:21um essentially non-recurring lease
6:51:25charges that that they had received from
6:51:30third parties
6:51:33yes okay and and in particular without
6:51:35pulling up the exhibit I'm talking about
6:51:37the uh column that we that had that was
6:51:41uh
6:51:42identified as um additional cap was that
6:51:51right no the I'm sorry third cost third
6:51:54party lease cost NRC it's the far right
6:51:57far column on the left on the right I'm
6:52:00sorry do you see that you're talking
6:52:02about about the yellow the far right
6:52:03yellow column yeah well the far right
6:52:07um orange column I was I was talking
6:52:11about I see that column okay um
6:52:17now Mr Carlson testified that the costs
6:52:21in that column were supported by the
6:52:25email quotes we that Century Link
6:52:27received from GT and Comcast was that
6:52:31your understanding
6:52:33I understand that's what he's testified
6:52:34to yes okay and and what what is it
6:52:37about the emails and his testimony that
6:52:40still leads you to believe that he is
6:52:42not that we Sentry Link is not
6:52:44adequately supported the costs uh
6:52:46reflected in that column I don't see
6:52:49adequate documentation from those
6:52:51third-party emails that support the
6:52:54costs listed in those columns or that
6:52:58line up with each of these psaps costs
6:53:05okay
6:53:06um well let me start first with do do
6:53:09you question the legitimacy of the costs
6:53:11that uh were included in the Comcast and
6:53:15gtt um
6:53:18emails it's not a question of legitimacy
6:53:21it's more a question of transparency and
6:53:25Clarity
6:53:27okay
6:53:29so um are you if if C link were to match
6:53:35the costs in those emails um in some
6:53:39fashion with the cost that we see in
6:53:41that third party lease cost NRC would
6:53:44that alleviate your concerns as to the
6:53:47adequacy of the cost
6:53:52support I would have to see what Sentry
6:53:55Link produces in order to answer that
6:53:56question
6:53:57appropriately okay have you undertaken
6:54:02uh
6:54:03an exercise in uh attempting to link the
6:54:07costs provided in those emails to um the
6:54:11costs that are represented on you know
6:54:13exhibit 101 attachment
6:54:18s1c yes I have spent much time in that
6:54:22exercise okay uh were you able to
6:54:25confirm that the uh costs in the third
6:54:29party lease cost NRC column were also
6:54:32supported by the emails that were U Mark
6:54:35into evidence earlier here
6:54:37today I was unable to confirm that okay
6:54:42um were there can you give us an idea
6:54:45for how many of the costs in that column
6:54:47you were unable to trace to those emails
6:54:50was it a few was it a lot all
6:55:02I would prefer to work in specifics so
6:55:07if you could point to a
6:55:10specific email that you would like to
6:55:12ask question about in regards to this
6:55:15document I'm happy to answer that sure
6:55:19um well um I'd prefer to work in having
6:55:23you identify a specific cost that you
6:55:26believe wasn't supported so why don't we
6:55:28do it the other way around um if you
6:55:31have uh this document in front of you
6:55:36again it's attachment
6:55:38101 uh I'm sorry exhibit 101 attachment
6:55:42sd1 C uh we'll start perhaps just with
6:55:46the the
6:55:49lamosa uh wire Center here uh there's a
6:55:53provider I identified in the second row
6:55:55is gtt do you see that I see that okay
6:55:59and there's a third party cost uh
6:56:01identified there uh for that particular
6:56:05uh NRC do you see that I see that okay
6:56:08and I'm not going to read it into the
6:56:09record because we are not in the
6:56:12confidential portion of this testimony
6:56:14but um were you or were you not able to
6:56:18tie that number in the row for gtt to
6:56:22the gtt emails that we were looked at
6:56:25earlier well I haven't memorized the
6:56:28emails specifically and so without
6:56:30pulling up that document
6:56:34uh I am unable to answer that question
6:56:36specifically okay is there um a single
6:56:41cost in that column third party lease
6:56:44cost NRC column that you can tell us
6:56:49right now under oath that you know is
6:56:52not supported by the emails that were
6:56:55marked into evidence earlier to
6:56:58that without looking specifically at it
6:57:01not at this time
6:57:03okay and let me ask you the same let's
6:57:06let's move over um two two rows so we're
6:57:10the third row from the I'm sorry two
6:57:12columns we the third column from the end
6:57:14it's the third party lease cost
6:57:18MRC access column do you see that I see
6:57:22that okay and I'll just ask you the same
6:57:24question is there a single cost
6:57:27reflected in that column for the third
6:57:30party carrier that you know uh is not
6:57:34supported by any of the emails that were
6:57:36marked into evidence earlier
6:57:38today it's staff's position that monthly
6:57:41recurring cost should not be considered
6:57:44as part of this
6:57:46proceeding okay so I by not by by
6:57:50answering the question in that fashion
6:57:51am I to assume that you did not
6:57:53undertake the analysis as to whether or
6:57:55not the costs in that column were
6:57:57supported by the emails that were
6:57:59admitted into evidence earlier today
6:58:02I spent less time on the monthly
6:58:05recurring
6:58:07costs because it's our stat it's our
6:58:10position that that should not be
6:58:12considered as part of this proceeding
6:58:14okay so I'll come back and ask the
6:58:16question that I asked two questions ago
6:58:19again and ask you to answer it this time
6:58:21is there a single cost in the column
6:58:24marked third party least cost MRC access
6:58:27that you know is not supported uh by any
6:58:30of the emails that were marked into
6:58:32evidence earlier
6:58:34today not at this time
6:58:40okay um
6:58:43and let me turn to the cost that you did
6:58:46identify um as lacking support it was
6:58:49the
6:58:51$551 in Capital Equipment cost is that
6:58:54correct yes okay is that the only cost
6:58:59uh on this spreadsheet that you believe
6:59:03lacks um cost
6:59:09support sorry I'm just looking at the
6:59:28spreadsheet can you ask ask the question
6:59:31again please sure is that the only
6:59:33category of costs in uh uh reflected on
6:59:37the spreadsheet that you know is you sit
6:59:40here today and lack cost
6:59:48support at this time yes
6:59:52okay
6:59:55um let me move on um off
6:59:58costs um and judge I know we're getting
7:00:01close to five um I probably just have I
7:00:05don't know 10 minutes maybe um so just
7:00:08for timing I don't know if we want to
7:00:09try to squeeze all this in today and
7:00:11finish or diver you the group well I
7:00:14yeah when you were done I was going to
7:00:16try and figure that out I'd like to what
7:00:18I might do is take a break at five for
7:00:19about 10 minutes and then finish up I
7:00:21there shouldn't be a whole lot more by
7:00:24by anyone we should be able to get done
7:00:26in the next about 40 minutes I already
7:00:27talked to my court reporter and Mr
7:00:29Federico and they are always nice to me
7:00:32so they said they would hang around so
7:00:34uh why don't you finish up and then
7:00:36we'll take a quick break and then
7:00:37hopefully finish it all up thanks Jud
7:00:40okay uh Miss KET um in your testimony um
7:00:43you uh oppose uh approval of the cida
7:00:48Howard route is that correct that is
7:00:50correct okay and um one of the reasons
7:00:55you oppose uh approval of that route is
7:00:58because um The Proposal was to replace
7:01:01EX existing uh uh copper um facilities
7:01:06is that
7:01:07right yes that's one of the reasons okay
7:01:11um now would you agree with me that
7:01:13fiber optic cable is uh much more
7:01:16reliable and capable of uh handling
7:01:19higher capacity um applications than
7:01:22copper yes okay and and if one of the
7:01:26goals of the uh Network Improvement
7:01:30rules is to increase U
7:01:33reliability um and functionality of the
7:01:36bsp network would you agree that uh a
7:01:39replacement of copper with fiber would
7:01:42be a way to accomplish that goal that is
7:01:45one way
7:01:52yes let me
7:01:55uh turn your attention then to the
7:01:58subject you had raised earlier about the
7:02:00uh about the uh the the Tariff um so can
7:02:04you explain to us I know it's in your
7:02:05testimony but can you explain to us why
7:02:08staff believes that it's in appropriate
7:02:10to approve a an MRC in this
7:02:15proceeding yes the monthly recurring
7:02:18charge as part of the Tariff is required
7:02:23to be filed as a tariff update or an
7:02:27amendment to the Tariff and while I
7:02:30believe it's appropriate it to raise
7:02:33the need or the necessity as part of
7:02:37this proceeding uh so that all parties
7:02:40can be aware that if these if this
7:02:43particular project is approved then
7:02:45there will be an Associated monthly
7:02:46recurring charge the approval of a
7:02:49monthly recurring charge should occur
7:02:51elsewhere and separate from this
7:02:55proceeding do you see uh the that there
7:02:59could be a risk um to everyone if um the
7:03:05ethernet upgrade project were approved
7:03:09uh without certainty that there would be
7:03:11a monthly recurring charge uh ultimately
7:03:14approved to go along with
7:03:17it I see that there's a risk but I also
7:03:20see that there is process for
7:03:23communication to take place between the
7:03:25two proceedings in order to ensure that
7:03:28Sentry Link would not incur undue risk
7:03:39judge could uh we hold on just I just
7:03:41want to talk to my client here for 15
7:03:43seconds to see if there's anything more
7:03:44and then I'll come right back Abol okay
7:03:59sure okay M Kirkland thank you very much
7:04:02for your analysis and time this
7:04:04afternoon we don't have any more
7:04:06questions right uh old do you still want
7:04:09to ask any questions Miss
7:04:10Kirkland I do your honor how much how
7:04:13are you going to use are you planning on
7:04:15using 20 minutes worth oh I don't think
7:04:17so maybe 10 okay I tell you what let's
7:04:20take a about a 10 minute break till
7:04:23about 5:15 and then we'll do that get
7:04:26you can ask questions I just have a few
7:04:28questions won't be very long Mr Cox I
7:04:30not going to hold you do this are you
7:04:31anticipating very long on a on a
7:04:33redirect at this point uh no hopefully
7:04:36it shouldn't be very long okay uh let's
7:04:38do that and probably be about 30 minutes
7:04:40or so we can get done today and not come
7:04:42back tomorrow for 30 minutes so uh let G
7:04:45give my court reporter a little bit
7:04:46break and we'll come back at
7:05:0055
7:05:30e
7:06:00e
7:06:30e
7:07:00e
7:07:30e
7:08:00e
7:08:30e
7:09:00e
7:09:30e
7:10:00e
7:10:30e
7:11:00e
7:11:30e
7:12:00e
7:12:30e
7:13:00e
7:13:30e
7:14:00e
7:14:30e
7:14:59e
7:15:29e
7:15:59e
7:16:29e e
7:17:02all right let's go back on the record
7:17:04make sure Tracy can hear me Tracy can
7:17:06hear me I can hear you okay uh let's go
7:17:10back on the record for City number 23
7:17:12a-01
7:17:1597t um again thank you everyone for
7:17:17hanging around hopefully we can get this
7:17:19done here today and not have to get up
7:17:21early tomorrow uh M Kirkland I will
7:17:24remind you that you are still under oath
7:17:26miss olar you may start any
7:17:28cross-examination that you have
7:17:32uh thank you your
7:17:33honor
7:17:38um Miss Kirkland I kind of want to go
7:17:40back to a topic that Mr Schneider
7:17:42covered in depth and to do so I would
7:17:45ask that we pull up hearing exhibit 100
7:17:49at page 16 which is not a confidential
7:17:51document
7:18:04if we could scroll down to uh line nine
7:18:07in the chart that follows below that
7:18:09thank you um Miss Kirkland have you seen
7:18:14these project details before that are
7:18:16contained within hearing exhibit
7:18:18100 yes and is it your understanding
7:18:21that the buildin region those 25 P apps
7:18:25and then the EC onet augment required uh
7:18:30pie apps and there are 10 those all
7:18:32require a piece of
7:18:34equipment is that your understanding yes
7:18:38and so those 35 P apps have you seen a
7:18:42quote of Century Link ordering
7:18:4535
7:18:49something I have
7:18:51not and so if you haven't seen a quote
7:18:54you don't know if the
7:18:57$551 figure includes a volume discount
7:19:01judge I'm sorry i' object um this
7:19:04appears to be friendly
7:19:06cross-examination and uh I don't think
7:19:08that's prohib allowed in the commission
7:19:09rules yeah I really wasn't sure what
7:19:11you're going to be doing with this uh
7:19:13this cross-examination honestly which is
7:19:15why I asked if you had any but well let
7:19:17me ask it this way are you asking that
7:19:21any project be approved with 6% overhead
7:19:25costs Jud
7:19:28again I'm sorry go ahead
7:19:31oh please by all means go
7:19:33ahead no go ahead Jennifer I'm sorry I
7:19:36didn't interrupt I'm sorry you didn't
7:19:38interrupt me you're in the middle of of
7:19:40of an objection there what's your
7:19:41objection I I I again I believe it's uh
7:19:44friendly cross but I guess I'll let it
7:19:46develop a little bit more okay all right
7:19:48that's fine we can answer the question
7:19:52will you ask the question again please
7:19:54do you believe that any of the projects
7:19:56that are proposed should be approved
7:19:59with 6% added on for
7:20:04overhead I believe that the if any
7:20:07projects are approved that the costs
7:20:10involved in that should be clearly
7:20:16understood do you clearly understand the
7:20:18overhead costs associated with any of
7:20:21the projects proposed in the second
7:20:23amended application no I do not have a
7:20:26clear understanding of the overhead
7:20:29costs um Council asked you and this is
7:20:33cross about um the Comcast quotes and
7:20:38the GT quotes my question to you is did
7:20:43you ever see a conflict where there was
7:20:45a quote for the same location between
7:20:48Comcast and
7:20:50GT and the higher number was chosen for
7:20:53purposes of Century Links projects judge
7:20:56again that's that's certainly friendly
7:20:58cross if she's uh setting the table here
7:21:01for uh a testimony from a witness to
7:21:05indicate that Sentry Link has improperly
7:21:08calculated costs yeah I'm GNA agree with
7:21:12that and move it
7:21:26along your recommendation to the
7:21:29administrative log of and the Public
7:21:32Utilities Commission ultimately is that
7:21:34these projects be approved subject to
7:21:37providing additional information do I
7:21:40understand that correctly yes you did
7:21:43not have the benefit of cca's answer
7:21:46testimony when you filed staff's answer
7:21:48testimony have you had the opportunity
7:21:51to review cca's answer testimony yes I
7:21:55have and your recommendations have not
7:21:59changed is that correct
7:22:01that's correct so where uh
7:22:05earlier there was testimony about any
7:22:09projects that aren't approved we have to
7:22:10go back come back in two
7:22:12years there's historic precedent for
7:22:16withdrawal of an improvement plan and
7:22:18coming back a year later
7:22:21true this is the first Improvement plan
7:22:24that's been proposed under the new rules
7:22:26that require it so I'm not sure what
7:22:28you're asking yeah 2023 did Century Link
7:22:32propose an improvement plan subject to
7:22:35ntia funding for three middle mile fiber
7:22:37builds toing $17
7:22:41million yes and they withdrew that
7:22:45correct
7:22:48they they tried to withdraw that and
7:22:51this proceeding is still
7:22:52open because the uh parties asked the
7:22:57judge to keep it open so that we could
7:22:59be here discussing this Improvement plan
7:23:02that we're talking about today correct
7:23:05and the 2024 Improvement plan that was
7:23:07filed on February 15
7:23:102024 Bears no resemblance to the first
7:23:13plan submitted in 2023
7:23:19correct there's resemblance in that it's
7:23:21in the same proceeding and some of the
7:23:24same projects which project is the
7:23:28same without comparing the two to I
7:23:30would not be able to answer that why is
7:23:33that relevant it's 5 o' why is that
7:23:36relevant um your honor I think it's
7:23:39relevant to um the big picture here but
7:23:42I will move
7:23:44along
7:23:47um with respect to your recommendation
7:23:50that the projects be approved with
7:23:54condition that additional information be
7:23:56provided later what how do you envision
7:23:58that process going
7:24:02when I couldn't say that for
7:24:05sure it's up to centry link to provide
7:24:08the information that is requested and
7:24:10it's up to centry link to provide
7:24:11adequate documentation for all parties
7:24:14involved to determine whether or not the
7:24:17costs that they have put forth are
7:24:21adequately
7:24:23supported staff does not share cca's
7:24:26concerns that some of these improvements
7:24:28are for the OSP network is that
7:24:35correct I have concerns about what the
7:24:39costs are that they have put out and
7:24:42what they have provided for
7:24:44documentation or lack
7:24:46thereof so the answer is no staff does
7:24:49not have concerns that some of these
7:24:51projects benefit the OSP
7:24:54Network staff doesn't have clarity as to
7:24:57which pieces would benefit the OSP
7:24:59Network versus the 911 Network and what
7:25:02costs are associated with
7:25:08each so does staff not have sufficient
7:25:11information for purposes of rule
7:25:142143b whether 100% of the cost should be
7:25:19allocated to 911 versus the commercial
7:25:24side of the business
7:25:31can you ask it again Sure Staff lacks
7:25:35sufficient information to take a
7:25:37position on whether 100% of the costs of
7:25:40a proposed project should be borne by
7:25:43911 versus a portion or all born by the
7:25:47commercial side of centry Le
7:25:49business staff lacks additional or
7:25:52sufficient information to determine
7:25:54whether the projects proposed would
7:25:57benefit osps versus bees
7:26:18um is there anything in the rules that
7:26:21would
7:26:22prohibit um if to your
7:26:26knowledge if this application was denied
7:26:30in full or withdrawn Century Link from
7:26:34coming
7:26:35back on or before February of 2025 with
7:26:38a different plan I'm to just object on
7:26:42foundation and asking a legal question
7:26:44of lay witness I and I don't think it's
7:26:46really relevant put that one on there
7:26:48too um that's the way it goes I think
7:26:51what you're going at M M old is the the
7:26:54the two-year deal but it wouldn't be
7:26:56going forward until 2026 so yeah I'm
7:26:59going I'm G sustain the
7:27:02objection I have no further question J
7:27:04all right um actually hit on the one
7:27:08thing that I was going to ask you about
7:27:10Miss Kirkman real quickly
7:27:13um in my review of it all but one of the
7:27:16projects uh staff and I say is a
7:27:19qualified in favor of is that correct
7:27:22that's correct um but I mean I think I'm
7:27:25stuck by the
7:27:28fact in in its current form
7:27:30form would staff recommend going forward
7:27:34with these projects with me approving
7:27:35the projects with the current
7:27:36information
7:27:38there with the current information
7:27:40everything that's been provided I think
7:27:42there's still a lack of clarity as to
7:27:44what the costs are and the documentation
7:27:46for those costs so my qualified approval
7:27:49is still there that yes I would like to
7:27:53see some of these projects go forward if
7:27:55the costs can be documented and
7:27:57supported and I haven't seen that
7:28:00but I mean I've got what I've got and
7:28:03and and you have what you have so based
7:28:05on its current form then you would say
7:28:07that I should not approve
7:28:09it I because I don't think I can approve
7:28:11it and say Hey you gotta file more stuff
7:28:14because be kind of a conditional
7:28:15approval and um I mean I think I'm stuck
7:28:19I'm all or
7:28:20nothing I understand uh I haven't seen
7:28:24documentation that would make me
7:28:26comfortable saying yes let's move
7:28:28forward unfortunately
7:28:31all right that's all I have any
7:28:36redirect yeah just a couple of questions
7:28:38your
7:28:39honor uh Mrs Kirkland uh Mr Snider
7:28:42talked to you about the the cost quotes
7:28:45uh that were introduced today um and
7:28:48these are for the last mile projects um
7:28:52are there differences in the the cost
7:28:53information in those quotes versus the
7:28:56cost
7:28:58information that was provided in and the
7:29:01other fiber build projects like the
7:29:03Idaho Springs Central City and CID
7:29:06Howard fiber build
7:29:08projects yes um in those fiber build
7:29:11projects the io Springs in Central City
7:29:14there was a costing tool provided which
7:29:16provided some clarity as to what the
7:29:19total cost of the fiber build was going
7:29:21to be for example uh fiber uh foot uh
7:29:26per foot um the specific pieces uh that
7:29:31go into building fiber such as um the
7:29:35pulling of Theo pulling of the fiber etc
7:29:37etc in exhibit
7:29:39108 uh in contrast for the last mile
7:29:43diversity that exhibit provides numbers
7:29:46but it does not for example it provides
7:29:48a cost per foot but it doesn't provide
7:29:50any supporting documentation for what
7:29:53that cost per foot is and so there's a
7:29:56lack of clarity in those in that
7:29:58projects to say yes can understand where
7:30:01those costs are coming from and where
7:30:02those numbers are coming
7:30:05from and do those quotes address your
7:30:08concerns about the clarity of the 6%
7:30:10overhead and 15% Capital cost being
7:30:13added no no documentation that's
7:30:16provided that has been provided thus far
7:30:19addresses my concerns about what the 6%
7:30:23overhead covers and what the 15% Capital
7:30:26costs
7:30:28are and also talked to Mr Snider about
7:30:31um specifically about the cida Howard
7:30:34fiber build project um and you said that
7:30:38replacement was one way to create that
7:30:41increased uh
7:30:43resiliency um replacement of the current
7:30:49with with fiber um and you said that was
7:30:53one way what are the other ways well for
7:30:56example another way would be to explore
7:30:58the option of thirdparty fiber leases
7:31:01for fiber that's already in place and
7:31:04I've seen no documentation that Sentry
7:31:05Link explored that option as a more
7:31:09cost-effective way to get that diversity
7:31:11to the citizens of Colorado without
7:31:13doing an expensive fiber
7:31:16build and and so you didn't see and
7:31:19haven't heard from today anything in the
7:31:21testimony
7:31:23that that you know Century Link
7:31:26evaluated those Alternatives I have not
7:31:29seen anything like that
7:31:31yet no further questions your honor okay
7:31:34you know the great thing about being a
7:31:35judge as you can say I don't have any
7:31:37more questions and then you can sit
7:31:38around for 30 seconds and go hey you
7:31:40know I got another question so I I'll
7:31:42give you another chance Mr Cox but I got
7:31:43a couple more uh Miss Kirkland I
7:31:45apologize for not remembering them right
7:31:47away um but uh real quick uh there is
7:31:53there anything that you see in the in
7:31:55the in the uh proposed cost that that
7:31:59just you know you go man that just seems
7:32:02so wrong um that that that causes you to
7:32:06if they were saying the per foot for
7:32:08fiber and it was $10,000 per foot you'd
7:32:11go my God that can't be right you don't
7:32:13see anything like that do you or do you
7:32:15um I I'm not an engineer and uh I'm not
7:32:19in the business of of pulling fiber so
7:32:21no I don't see anything that stands out
7:32:23on its face however I don't see any
7:32:25documentation that says this is an
7:32:27industry standard either so I have
7:32:29nothing to compare it to okay I
7:32:33certainly if you heard my questions
7:32:34before I've got I've got wonders about
7:32:37Capital costs and I got wonders about uh
7:32:40whatever other question I was asking
7:32:41about there uh the other cost of holding
7:32:45whatever costs um but those exist don't
7:32:49they at least as far as you know I
7:32:52believe so yes so so whatever that cost
7:32:56may be
7:32:57correctly the cost exist
7:33:00yes fa statement okay yes um all right I
7:33:05think that's all I have Mr Cox do you
7:33:07have anything based upon my questions
7:33:09there and I apologize for that that's
7:33:11okay nothing further all righty uh M
7:33:14kland thank you the two people I feel
7:33:16the most sorry for are the first witness
7:33:17and the last witness because the first
7:33:19one never gets off the stand and the
7:33:21last one has to wait around all day and
7:33:22then no one ever really generally no one
7:33:24asks him any questions so uh I do
7:33:27appreciate you hanging around I do
7:33:28appreciate testimonies very help
7:33:30um but you are free to enjoy
7:33:335:30 thank you sir all righty um so that
7:33:39wraps everything up as far as our
7:33:43Witnesses um I have a few housekeeping
7:33:46things I need to take care of um I need
7:33:50we have the confidential copies of some
7:33:53exhibits but we need non-confidential
7:33:55ones filed um so Mr Snider if you could
7:33:58see the uh non-confidential filing of
7:34:01exhibit 102 103 105 106 and
7:34:06108 and M old if you can see to the
7:34:09filing of I believe it's 602 and
7:34:12603 um that were confidentially if you
7:34:15could um just file those in the
7:34:18proceeding that would be great
7:34:20[Music]
7:34:22um
7:34:24and I'll go through real quickly I have
7:34:27admitted exhibit 100 101 400
7:34:33600
7:34:34700 601 110 602 603 102 108 103 105 106
7:34:45111 I have administrative notice taken
7:34:48of 47 CFR
7:34:529.19
7:34:54A5 um administrative notice of Century
7:34:59Links finally on February 12th 2024 page
7:35:023 and four in proceeding 23
7:35:06r-05
7:35:0977t and um outage filing by commission
7:35:13staff um and proceeding 24
7:35:17m- uh I got 00 2T it's outage filing
7:35:232406 um if I've missed anything or you
7:35:26think something should have been
7:35:27admitted tell me that
7:35:32um your honor this is Tracy and I just
7:35:33want to there were two um outage
7:35:36investigations reports that were
7:35:38administratively noticed 2309 and
7:35:422314 I outage your filing I've got 2406
7:35:46and that's what I have 2406 2406 okay 23
7:35:512309 23 20 232 2311 2309
7:35:562314 were offered to be uh taken minut
7:35:59ministrative notice and that was denied
7:36:01gotcha thank you so um I think that was
7:36:06everything in there I am going to ask
7:36:08the part the sa of positions are due on
7:36:11July 1st which is not too long and I
7:36:14promise I will get right on a decision
7:36:15as quickly as I can um for your folks at
7:36:18Sentry Link I I do realize there's um a
7:36:22timeline we're going on I do realize I
7:36:24actually had a decision that I never saw
7:36:25go out which uh talked about the
7:36:28deadline going away
7:36:30um I'll will put that in the decision
7:36:32again so that is in this final decision
7:36:34so don't worry about that
7:36:37um I'm GNA ask that the parties though
7:36:40do me one favor um I didn't ask any of
7:36:43the witnesses this because I think this
7:36:44is a legal question and um I don't think
7:36:48they really could answer it too well but
7:36:50in your statements of position if you
7:36:51could address whether I have the ability
7:36:54to approve a permanent tariff so the the
7:36:57ethernet that ether net line line that
7:36:59we're talking about is going to have a
7:37:01permanent tariff filing on there and
7:37:03whether I can do that in this proceeding
7:37:05under uh 2143 or whether that has to be
7:37:08a a separate filing I'm not sure that I
7:37:10can so um if you think I can tell me why
7:37:13if you think I can't tell me why I can't
7:37:15uh I'd appreciate that be very helpful
7:37:17to
7:37:18me um and I
7:37:21think that is all I have Mr Snider I
7:37:24will start with you do you have anything
7:37:26further uh thank you I think you've
7:37:29covered all everything the only other
7:37:30question I would have would be the
7:37:31transcript and whether or not the
7:37:33position statements would be more
7:37:35helpful like this is a question to
7:37:37everybody if we ordered an expedited
7:37:40copy of the transcript split the costs
7:37:43and included testimony or if the
7:37:45consensus of the group I don't know if
7:37:46there's a normal protocol for pu or not
7:37:49uh perhaps the protocol would just be
7:37:51we'll just do this based on memory I you
7:37:55know I don't I don't ever write a
7:37:57statement of position
7:38:00so so I don't know I think my cor
7:38:02reporters like it if you order things
7:38:03expedited because they get more money
7:38:05but uh I don't know you can talk to the
7:38:08other parties if you want to split it or
7:38:09how quickly you talk to my co- reporters
7:38:11and um see about how quickly you can get
7:38:13it you got a fairly quick timeline on
7:38:15this so um obvious obviously if you're
7:38:18quoting things from a transcript it's
7:38:19going to be far more helpful to me than
7:38:22than relying on your memory um so for
7:38:26what that you know take that for what
7:38:27it's worth it's going to be a better sop
7:38:29probably if you're you're sing to a
7:38:32transcript
7:38:34um so okay I'll connect with the parties
7:38:38offline thank you yeah anything anything
7:38:42else not for me m
7:38:45old no your honor Mr Cox anyone
7:38:49else uh your honor since we have Tracy
7:38:52here if she just if she has an estimate
7:38:54at all on how long the transcript would
7:38:56take
7:39:01I will say it'll take a little bit
7:39:02longer because of all the confidential
7:39:03sessions that I have to piece out of it
7:39:06um but if you want to expedited ordered
7:39:07it that way and I will get it
7:39:12done but as of right now you're not sure
7:39:15how long that would take even with the
7:39:19expedited um I would need at least
7:39:23until I would say Friday Saturday would
7:39:27that give you all enough time to get to
7:39:29your sop's
7:39:30done I have other hearings this week I
7:39:34that's what I was looking
7:39:35at
7:39:40um yeah I got one I got a
7:39:44couple yeah I mean if that's the case I
7:39:46think I would ask for see if we could do
7:39:47a couple more days can we do till the
7:39:50third
7:39:51um Mr Snider you have any problem goes
7:39:54to the third I I don't I think the value
7:39:56of the transcript warrants the
7:39:58additional cup couple days well and I'm
7:40:01G to say if you want to if you want to
7:40:02make it longer than that you can too
7:40:05um if you want if you want if you want
7:40:08that whole big giant Fourth of July
7:40:09weekend to sit around reading the
7:40:11transcript you can make it the eth if
7:40:13you want because I guarantee if you get
7:40:14it to the third you get to me on the
7:40:15third I ain't gonna look at it till the
7:40:20eth so up to
7:40:24you yeah let's I I would if the parties
7:40:27are amenable to it I I I'd like to order
7:40:30the transcript to move the position
7:40:32statement to the third third to the
7:40:36eth oh uh eth I guess yeah I'm getting
7:40:39my clients the eth is every have a
7:40:41problem with moving it to the
7:40:45eth no objection okay okay we can move
7:40:49it to the eighth um like I say I if you
7:40:51get if you get it to me at six o'clock
7:40:52on the third I'm not going to look at it
7:40:55I'm not going to look at it so um keep
7:40:57it within 30 pages please don't go high
7:41:00in 30 I'll stop reading after
7:41:0330 um
7:41:06but I think that's it last call for any
7:41:10further questions or
7:41:13clarifications going once going
7:41:16twice all right thank you everyone thank
7:41:18you for the witnesses that are still
7:41:19here I do appreciate the testimony
7:41:21appreciate your time today um I do
7:41:23promise I will get this done and turned
7:41:25around as quickly as I can once those
7:41:26Sops do come in um thank thank you for
7:41:29getting us done today and everyone have
7:41:30a pleasant tonight and a hearing free
7:41:37tomorrow thank you thanks
7:41:58judge for

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