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44 Harsh Truths About The Game Of Life - Naval Ravikant (4K) — Transcript

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0:00Happiness is being satisfied with what
0:02you have. Success comes from
0:04dissatisfaction.
0:06Is success worth it then? Oof. I'm not
0:09sure that statement is true anymore.
0:12Like I made that statement a long time
0:13ago and a lot of these things are just
0:15notes to myself and they're highly
0:17contextual. They come in the moment,
0:18they leave in the moment.
0:21Happiness. Okay. So very complicated
0:23topic but I always like the Socrates
0:26story where he goes into the marketplace
0:28and they show him all these luxuries and
0:30fineries and he says how many things
0:32there are in this world that I do not
0:33want right and that's a form of freedom
0:35so not wanting something is as good as
0:38having it in the old story with
0:40Alexander Dionius right Alexander goes
0:42out and conquers the world and he meets
0:44Dionius who's living in a barrel and
0:45Dionius says get out of the way you're
0:47blocking my son and Alexander says oh
0:50how I wish I you know could be like
0:51Dionius the next life and Dionis says
0:54that's the difference I don't wish that
0:55I could sorry Dioynes Dioynes Dioynes
0:57says I I I don't wish to be Alexander so
1:00two paths to happiness and uh one path
1:04is success you get what you want you
1:06satisfy your material needs or like
1:07Dioynes you just don't want in the first
1:09place and I'm not sure which one is more
1:12valid um
1:15and it also depends what you define as
1:16success if the end goal is happiness
1:18then why not cut to the chase and just
1:20go straight for
1:21uh does being happy make you less
1:24successful? That is a conventional
1:25wisdom. That may even be the practical
1:28earned experience of your reality. You
1:29find that when you're happy, you don't
1:30want anything. So, you don't get up and
1:32do anything. On the other hand, you
1:34know, you still got to do something.
1:36You're an animal. You're here. You're
1:37here to survive. You're here to
1:38replicate. You're driven. You're
1:41motivated. You're going to do something.
1:42You're not just going to sit there all
1:43day. Unlikely. Some people do. Maybe
1:45it's in their nature. But I think most
1:47people still want to act. they want to
1:50live in the arena. Uh I found for myself
1:53as I've become uh happier is a big word,
1:56but you know, more peaceful, more calm,
1:58more present, more uh satisfied with
2:00what I have, uh I still want to do
2:02things. I just want to do bigger things.
2:04I want to do things that are more pure,
2:06more aligned with uh what I think needs
2:09to be done and what I can uniquely do.
2:11So in that sense, I think that being
2:13happier can actually make you more
2:15successful, but your definition of
2:17success will likely change along the
2:18way.
2:19Is that a realization you think you
2:21could have gotten to had you have not
2:22had some success in the first place?
2:26At least for me, I always wanted to take
2:30the path of material success first. I
2:33was not going to go be an aesthetic and
2:34sit there and renounce everything. That
2:36just seems too unrealistic and too
2:38painful. Uh, in the story of Buddha, he
2:41starts out as a prince and then he sees
2:43that it's all kind of meaningless
2:44because you're still going to get old
2:45and die and then he goes into the woods
2:47looking for something more.
2:50I'll take the happy route that involves
2:53material success. Thank you.
2:54I think it's quicker in some ways. You
2:57know, one of your uh insights is it's
3:00far easier to achieve our material
3:01desires than it is to renounce them.
3:04And uh
3:04it depends on the person, but I I think
3:07you have to try that path. If you want
3:08something, go get it. Uh, you know, like
3:11I I I quipped that the reason to win the
3:13game is to be free of it. So, you you
3:16play the games, you win the games, and
3:18then you get hopefully you get bored of
3:19the games. You don't want to just keep
3:20looping on the same game over and over.
3:22Although a lot of these games are very
3:23enticing and have many levels and are
3:25relatively open-ended.
3:27Uh, and then you become free of the game
3:29uh in a sense that you're no longer
3:31trying to win it. You know, you can win
3:33it. Uh, and either you move to a
3:35different game or you play the game for
3:37the sheer joy of it.
3:39Yeah. You, another one of yours, most of
3:41the gains in life come from suffering in
3:43the short term so you can get paid in
3:44the long term. I think
3:46that's classic.
3:47Winning the marshmallow test on a daily
3:49basis. But, uh, there's an interesting
3:51challenge where I think people need to
3:52avoid becoming uh, a suffering addict.
3:55Sort of using suffering as the proxy for
3:58progress as opposed to the outcome of
4:01the suffering. Right? It's like I was in
4:03pain not eating the marshmallow. I was
4:06in pain doing this work. I have attached
4:10well-being and satisfaction to pain, not
4:13to what the pain gets me on the other
4:14side of it. If you define pain as
4:17physical pain, then it's a real thing.
4:19It happens and you can't ignore it. But
4:21that's not what we mean by suffering.
4:23Suffering is mostly mental anguish and
4:24mental pain. And it just means you don't
4:26want to do the task at hand. Uh if you
4:29were fine doing the task at hand, then
4:30you wouldn't be suffering. And then the
4:32question is what's more effective to
4:34suffer along the way or just to
4:35interpret it in a way that it's not
4:36suffering?
4:38You hear from a lot of successful people
4:39they look back and they say oh the
4:41journey was the fun part right that was
4:42actually the entertaining part and I
4:44should have enjoyed it more.
4:45It's a common regret. Uh there's a
4:47little thought exercise I like to do,
4:49which is you can go back into your own
4:52life and uh try to put yourself in the
4:55exact position you were in 5 years ago,
4:5710 years ago, 15 years ago, 20 years
4:59ago. And you try to remember, okay, who
5:01was I with? What was I doing? What was I
5:03feeling? What were my emotions? What
5:05were my objectives? And really, really
5:07try to transport yourself back and see
5:10if there's any advice you'd give
5:11yourself. Anything you do differently.
5:12Now, you don't have new information. And
5:14don't pretend you could have gone back
5:15and, you know, bought a stock or bought
5:17bought Bitcoin or whatever, but just
5:20knowing what you know now in terms of
5:21your temperament and a little bit of age
5:24related experience,
5:26how would you have done things
5:27differently? And I think it's a
5:29worthwhile exercise to do. So don't let
5:30me rob you of the conclusion, but I'll
5:32tell you for me uh
5:36I would have done everything the same
5:38except I would have done it with less
5:39anger, less emotion, less internal
5:41suffering because that was optional. It
5:43wasn't necessary.
5:45And I would argue that someone who can
5:47do the job uh at least peacefully but
5:50maybe happily is going to be more
5:51effective than someone who has
5:53unnecessary emotional turmoil.
5:55Well, you end up with a series of
5:57miserable successes, right? The outcome
6:00may have been the same, but the entire
6:02experience of getting there
6:04and and the journey is not only the
6:05reward. The journey is the only thing
6:06there is. You know, even success, it's
6:09human nature to bank it very very
6:12quickly, right? Because the normal loop
6:14that we run through is you sit around,
6:16you're bored, then you want something,
6:18then when you want something, you decide
6:20you're not going to be happy until you
6:21get that thing. Then you start your bout
6:24of suffering or anticipation while you
6:26strive to get that thing. If you get
6:28that thing, then you get used to it and
6:30then you get bored again. Then a few
6:31months later, you want something else.
6:33And if you don't get it, then you're
6:34unhappy for a bit and then you get over
6:36it and then you want something else.
6:37Right? That's the normal cycle. So
6:40whether you're happy or unhappy at the
6:42end, it tends not to last. Now I don't
6:44want to be glib and say that oh there's
6:46no point in making money or being
6:48successful. There absolutely is. Money
6:49solves all your money problems. So it is
6:51good to have money. Um that said there
6:54are those uh those stories. I I don't
6:56know if you've seen those studies. I
6:57don't know how real these are. A lot of
6:58these psych studies don't replicate, but
7:00it's a fun fun little study that shows
7:02that uh people who break their back and
7:04people who win the lottery are back to
7:06their baseline happiness two years
7:08later. Yep. Again, I don't know if
7:10that's entirely true. I think money can
7:12buy you happiness if you earned it
7:14because then along the way you have both
7:17pride and confidence in yourself and you
7:19have a sense of accomplishment and you
7:22you know set out to do something and you
7:23were right. So I I'll bet that lingers
7:25and then as I said money solves your
7:26money problem. So I don't want to be too
7:28glib about it but I would say in general
7:30this this loop that we run through um of
7:33desire, dopamine, fulfillment,
7:35unfulfillment like you you have to enjoy
7:37the journey. The journey is all there
7:38is, right? 99% of your time is spent on
7:40the journey. So, what kind of a journey
7:42is it if you're not going to enjoy it?
7:43How do you shortcut that desire
7:45contract?
7:48You could focus, you could decide that I
7:50don't want most things. I think we have
7:52a lot of unnecessary desires that we
7:54just pick up everywhere. We have
7:56opinions on everything, judgments and
7:57everything. Uh so, I think just knowing
8:00that those are the source of unhappiness
8:02uh will make you be choosy about your
8:04desires. And frankly, if you want to be
8:06successful, you have to be choosy about
8:08your desires. You have to focus.
8:09You can't be great at everything.
8:10You can't be great at everything. You're
8:12just going to waste your energy and
8:13waste your time.
8:14Is fame a worthwhile goal?
8:18Uh, it gets you invited to better
8:19parties,
8:21gets you into better restaurants. Uh,
8:24fame. So, fa fame is this funny thing
8:26where a lot of people know you, but you
8:27don't know them. And, uh, it does get
8:30you put on a pedestal. Uh, it can get
8:32you what you want, uh, at a at a
8:34distance. So, I wouldn't say it's
8:35worthless. Obviously, people want it for
8:37a reason. Um, it's high status, so it
8:39attracts the opposite sex. Uh,
8:41especially for men, it attracts women.
8:43Uh, that said, it is high cost. It means
8:45you have no privacy. Um, you do have
8:48weirdos and lunatics. Uh, you do get hit
8:50up a lot for weird things. Uh, and
8:53you're on a stage, so you're forced to
8:55perform, so you're forced to be
8:56consistent with your past proclamations
8:58and actions, and you're going to have
8:59haters and all that nonsense. But the
9:01fact that we do it, the fact that we all
9:04seem to want it means that it would be
9:06disingenuous to say, "Oh, no, no, I'm
9:08famous." But you don't want to be
9:08famous.
9:10Um, that said, I think fame, like
9:12anything else, is best produced as a or
9:15pursued as a byproduct of something
9:18potentially more worthwhile. Um, wanting
9:21to be famous and craving to be famous
9:23and being famous for being famous, these
9:25are sort of traps.
9:26Fame for fame's sake.
9:27Yeah. Exactly. So, it's better that it's
9:29earned fame. Uh so for example earn
9:31respect in the tribe is you do things
9:33that are good for the tribe. Uh who are
9:35the most famous people in human history?
9:37Uh there uh you know there there are
9:40people who sort of transcended the self.
9:42The Buddhas and the Jesuses and the
9:44Muhammads of the world. Who else is
9:45famous? Uh the artists are famous. You
9:48know art lasts for a long time. The
9:49scientists are famous. They discover
9:51things. The conquerors are famous
9:53presumably because they conquered for
9:54their tribe. There was someone that they
9:56were fighting for. So generally the
9:59higher up you rise by doing things for
10:01greater and greater groups of people
10:03even though it may be considered
10:04tyrannical or negative like uh you know
10:07Jenghaskhan is famous but uh to the
10:09Mongols he was doing good to the rest of
10:10them not so much uh
10:14the higher level you're operating at the
10:16more people you're taking care of the
10:18more you sort of earn respect and fame
10:20and I think those are good reasons to be
10:22famous if if if fame is empty if you're
10:24famous just cuz your name showed up in a
10:26lot of places or your face showed up in
10:27a lot of places then that's a hollow
10:30fame and I think deep down you will know
10:31that and so it'll be fragile and you'll
10:33always be afraid of losing it and then
10:34you'll be forced to perform
10:36so the kind of fame that uh pure actors
10:39and celebrities have I wouldn't want but
10:41the kind of fame that's earned because
10:42you did something useful
10:44uh why dodge that now you can there's a
10:48challenge I think especially if people
10:49make uh very loud public proclamations
10:52about things you mentioned there about
10:54um you're almost hostage to the things
10:57that you used to say that um being able
11:00to update your opinions and change your
11:02mind looks very similar to the internet
11:05as hypocrisy does. No, no, no. The
11:08difference between me saying something
11:09in the past and saying something
11:10different now is perhaps I've learned,
11:12perhaps I've updated my beliefs, but so
11:14few people do it in a legitimate way. I
11:17think that the grifter shill you see
11:19this is the the the smoking gun that
11:21shows that he didn't really believe that
11:23thing all along. Right.
11:24And uh yeah, I I went to a retreat in LA
11:26a couple of years ago and there was a
11:28guy that I used to follow that a big um
11:32business and productivity advice content
11:34creator really really successful and he
11:36just totally stepped back from
11:37everything and went uh like monk mode
11:39and focused on his business. I asked him
11:41why and he said uh I started feeling
11:44like I had to live up to in private the
11:46things that I was saying in public.
11:47Right.
11:48Yeah. It's a it's a what was it that uh
11:51who said it was a mein that um foolish
11:54consistency is a hobgoblin of little
11:55minds right um but essentially look all
12:00life is all learning is error correction
12:02right every knowledge creation system
12:03works through correcting errors making
12:05guesses and correcting errors so by
12:07definition if you're learning you're
12:08going to be wrong most of the time and
12:09you'll be updating your priors and so
12:12for example I did this Joe Rogan podcast
12:13I don't know it's like eight or nine
12:14years ago um and people will call out
12:18like the one thing that didn't turn out
12:19to be correct, right? And it's just like
12:21and they just beat on it because it it
12:23helps them in their mind raise their
12:25status a little bit. Aha, I caught him
12:27in an error. Well, I think if you catch
12:28someone in a blatant lie where there's
12:30believe one thing and they say another,
12:32that's legit. That's a character flaw.
12:34They shouldn't be lying. But on the
12:35other hand, if they just made a guess at
12:37something and they got it wrong. And by
12:38the way, mostly it's about the AI AGI
12:40thing. And I think I'm still right about
12:41that, but it's a different story. Um
12:44people who think we have achieved AGI
12:46just fail a touring test from their
12:48side. Um but uh
12:52it's funny how people latch on to single
12:54proclamations. But the reality is all of
12:56us are dynamical systems. We're always
12:58changing. We're always learning. We're
12:59always growing. And uh hopefully we're
13:02correcting errors. What you don't want
13:03to be doing is lying in public so that
13:05because you're you're trying to look
13:06good. And I think people can smell that.
13:08I I I what this world really lacks right
13:12now is authenticity and because
13:14everybody wants something. They want to
13:15be seen as something. They want to be
13:17something that they're not. And so you
13:20do catch a lot of people uh saying
13:22things that they don't really believe.
13:23And I think people are very sensitive to
13:25that.
13:25Uh [ __ ] radars have become hypers
13:27sensitized to try and work out whether
13:29or not this person means the thing that
13:31they're saying.
13:31Yeah. I mean they they a lot of people
13:33are wrong. Most of us are wrong most of
13:35the time especially in any new endeavor.
13:37Difference between being wrong and
13:38disingenuous though, purposefully wrong.
13:40Correct. Exactly. So I think I think
13:42that's the big difference. If someone is
13:43wrong, no big deal. As long as they have
13:45a genuine reason for saying what they're
13:47saying, or believing what they're
13:48believing. But if they are lying to
13:51elevate their status or their appearance
13:52or to live up to some expectation,
13:54that's the mistake. And that's a mistake
13:56not just for the listener, it's a
13:57mistake for themselves cuz then you're
13:58going to get trapped in a hall of
14:00mirrors. You yourself are going to be
14:01consistent with your past proclamations.
14:03So if you're lying to others, you're
14:04going to be lying to yourself. You're
14:06puppeted by a person that you are not
14:09even.
14:09That's right. Yeah. It's it's like what
14:12was that line? There's you're you're
14:13basically trying to impress people who
14:16you know don't care about you. Um so
14:18they don't like the real you and if they
14:20saw the real you they wouldn't care and
14:21the people who would like the real you
14:23don't get to see the real you so they
14:24pass you by
14:25right? You only want the respect of the
14:27very very few people that you respect.
14:29Uh trying to demand respect from the
14:32masses is a fool's errand.
14:35status games, the allure of acrewing,
14:40whether it's fame, actual fame, or just
14:42the competition comparison trap, it's
14:44always there. Uh there's a real draw of
14:46being swayed by social approval. How
14:49should people learn to get less
14:51distracted by status games in that way?
14:55I think it it just helps to see that
14:57status games don't matter as much as
14:58they used to. uh in old society, let's
15:02go back hunter gatherer times, there was
15:03no such thing as wealth. You just had
15:05what you could carry. Um there was no
15:07stored wealth. So wealth games didn't
15:09really exist to wealth creation games.
15:11All that existed was status games. If
15:13you were high status, then you got what
15:15little was available first. Um but even
15:18back then, you had to earn your status
15:19by taking care of the tribe. Uh now we
15:22have wealth creation where you can
15:24actually create a product or a service.
15:26you can scale that product or service
15:27and you can provide abundance for a lot
15:29of people. Uh and that's not zero sum,
15:31that's a positive sum game. I can be
15:33wealthy, you can be wealthy, we can
15:34create things together and clearly since
15:37we are all collectively far far
15:38wealthier than we were in huntergatherer
15:40times. Uh wealth creation is positive
15:43but status is limited. There's limited
15:45status to go around. It's a ranking
15:46ladder. It's a hierarchy. And so it's a
15:48rise in status. Somebody else has a
15:50lower in status. Now you can have
15:52multiple kinds of status. So you can
15:53expand some kinds of status, but it's
15:55not like wealth creation where it can go
15:56infinitely where we can all be, you
15:58know, living in the stars and moon bases
16:00or Mars colonies or what have you. So
16:03just realize that status games are
16:05inherently limited. Uh they're always
16:07combative. Um they always require uh
16:11direct combat whereas uh wealth creation
16:13games can be just you're creating
16:15products. You don't have to fight
16:17anybody else. Yes, in the marketplace
16:18your product has to succeed, but that's
16:20not quite the same as uh invective
16:23against other people or being angry with
16:24other people or feeling pushed down or
16:26pushed up or having a beef with
16:27somebody.
16:28So, I would argue that wealth creation
16:30games are both more pleasant. Uh they're
16:32positive sum and they actually have uh
16:34concrete material returns. If you have
16:36more money, you can buy more.
16:38Show me where you can exchange your
16:39status at the bank.
16:41Exactly. Yeah. It's it's it's vague and
16:43it's fuzzy. Now, you see people get
16:45rich, they have money, what do they
16:46want? They want status. So they go to
16:48Hollywood, start starring in movies,
16:50they donate to nonprofits, they go to KS
16:52or Davos or what have you. Um, and they
16:54start trying to trade the money for
16:56status. So, you know, people always want
16:58what they don't have. Uh, and we are
17:00evolutionarily hardwired for status
17:02because as I said, wealth creation
17:03didn't really exist until the
17:05agricultural revolution, uh, when you
17:07could store grain and then the
17:08industrial revolution took it to another
17:09level and now the information age is
17:11taking it to yet another level.
17:13But there's never been an easier time to
17:15make money. Yes, it's still hard, but
17:17there's never been an easier time to
17:18create wealth because there's so much
17:20leverage out there. There's so much
17:21opportunity. You still have to go find
17:23it. It's not easy. It's not going to
17:24fall on your lap, and you have to learn
17:25something and know something and do
17:27something interesting. But nevertheless,
17:28it's possible to many more people.
17:32A few hundred years ago, you were born a
17:33surf, you were going to die a surf.
17:34There was almost no way out of that.
17:36That's changed. And so I would argue
17:39that you're better off focusing on
17:41wealth games and status games. If you're
17:43trying to um build up, for example, your
17:46following on a social network and get
17:47famous and then get rich off of being
17:49famous, that's a much harder path than
17:50getting rich first.
17:52Um and then go for your fame afterwards
17:54would be my advice.
17:55Well, a lot of people do that as you
17:57said. It's funny how uh people who have
18:00achieved such a level of wealth that you
18:02don't think why do you need the status
18:03given that most people use status to
18:05then try and cash in to achieve wealth
18:06if you've achieved [ __ ] money already
18:08if you're post money or uh asset heavy
18:11as it's known. Um why are you trying to
18:14go in the other direction? Well, as you
18:16said because we've we've got an
18:18illustrious history biologically of
18:20wanting status and wealth is kind of
18:23novel.
18:24It's new. It's new. Wealth is uh
18:26something that you have to understand
18:27more intellectually. Yeah, there's a
18:29physical component, more food, more
18:31survival, but uh to truly understand the
18:34effects and the powers and the abilities
18:35and limitations uh and the advantages
18:37and disadvantages of wealth, you have to
18:39use your neoortex a lot more.
18:41Does that mean
18:42it's not limbic?
18:43The reason to play the game is to win
18:44the game and be done with it is harder
18:46to win and be done with for status than
18:48it is for wealth.
18:50That's a good observation. I had thought
18:51that through, but you're right. Yeah, I
18:52think that's right. I think you people
18:54will always want more status. Uh but I
18:56think you can be satisfied at a certain
18:57level of wealth. Well, as well
19:00you always have this sort of sense. This
19:03is what leaderboards are, right? This is
19:04the the billboard chart, right? And it
19:08is zero sum and it is
19:10I guess you know the Forbes richest
19:12people on the planet thing.
19:14That one's harder to climb the ladder
19:15on. But uh the fact that for example
19:18iTunes and YouTube can put you in
19:20competition against your contemporaries
19:22every single day and make you go up and
19:24down and show you likes and comments and
19:26ratings. This is how much you're up.
19:28Exactly. They they keep you running on
19:30that treadmill forever.
19:31Jimmy Carr has this cool idea where he
19:33says trajectory is more important than
19:34position.
19:35So if you are number 101 in the world
19:39but last year you were number 200 versus
19:41you're number two in the world but last
19:42year you were number one. there is this
19:44sense of the deceleration is very very
19:48tangible and um it's
19:50again it goes back to evolution you know
19:52something that is bleeding eventually
19:53dies unless you stop the bleeding so
19:55you're you're hardwired not to lose what
19:57you have and because we evolve in
19:59conditions where we're so close to just
20:02not surviving uh you don't want to give
20:04anything up. It's hardwired into us to
20:06not give anything up.
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20:56checkout. That's eigle.com/modernwisdom
21:00and modernwisdom a checkout. The worst
21:02outcome in the world is not having
21:04self-esteem.
21:06Why? Yeah, that's a tough one. Uh, well,
21:10I I I look at the people and I don't
21:13want to offend anybody, but I look at
21:14the people who don't like themselves,
21:17and that's the toughest slot because
21:19they're always wrestling with
21:20themselves, and it's hard enough to face
21:22the outside world. Um, and no one's
21:24going to like you more than you like
21:25yourself. So, if you're struggling with
21:27yourself, then the outside world becomes
21:29an insurmountable challenge. And it's
21:32hard to say why people have low
21:33self-esteem. It might be genetic. It
21:35might just be circumstantial. A lot of
21:37times I think it's cuz they just weren't
21:38unconditionally loved as a child and
21:40that sort of seeps in at a deep core
21:42level. Um but self-esteem issues can be
21:46the most limiting. Uh one interesting
21:48thought is that you know to some extent
21:51self-esteem is a reputation you have
21:53with yourself. Um you're watching
21:55yourself at all times. You know what
21:57you're doing and you have your own moral
21:58code. Everyone has a different moral
22:00code. But if you don't live up to your
22:01own moral code, the same code that you
22:03hold others to, uh it will damage your
22:06self-esteem. So perhaps one way to build
22:08up your self-esteem is to live up to
22:10your own code very rigorously. Have one
22:13and then live up to it. Uh another way
22:15to raise your self-esteem might be to do
22:17things for others. Uh if I look back on
22:20my life and you know what are the
22:22moments that I'm actually proud of,
22:23there's very far and few between and
22:25it's not that often and it's not the
22:26things you would expect. It's not the
22:28material success. It's not having
22:30learned this thing or that. It's when I
22:32made a sacrifice for somebody or
22:34something that I loved. And uh that's
22:36when I'm actually ironically most proud.
22:38Now that's through an explicit mental
22:40exercise. But I'll bet you at some level
22:41I'm recording that implicitly. So that
22:43tells me that even if I am not being
22:45loved and the way to create love is to
22:47give love to to express love through
22:49sacrifice and through duty.
22:51And so I think doing things like that
22:52can build up your self-esteem really
22:54fast. It's interesting when you talk
22:56about sacrifice because a lot of the
22:57time people say, "I sacrificed so much
22:59for my job." It's like, "Yeah, but that
23:01was you sacrificing something that you
23:03wanted less for something that you
23:04wanted more as opposed to genuinely
23:06taking some sort of cost." And uh yeah,
23:09I wonder whether if self-esteem is you
23:14adhering to your internal your your
23:16actions and your values aligning um even
23:19when it's difficult or perhaps even more
23:20so when it's difficult. I wonder whether
23:23there is a price that people who are
23:25more introspective, high integrity pay
23:30because you think well you've got this
23:33uh
23:34heavy set of overheads that you need to
23:36pay in some way.
23:37Well, if being ethical were profitable,
23:38everybody would do it, right? So, uh you
23:42at some level it does involve a
23:44sacrifice. Uh but that sacrifice can
23:46also be thought of as you're thinking
23:48for the long term rather than the short
23:49term. Um for example the virtues are the
23:52set of uh virtues a set of beliefs that
23:55if everybody in society followed them as
23:57individuals it would lead to win-win
23:59outcomes for everybody. So if I am
24:01honest and you are honest then we can do
24:04business more easily. We can interact
24:05more easily because we can trust each
24:07other. So even though there might be a
24:08few liars in the system as long as there
24:10aren't too many liars and too many
24:11cheaters uh a high trust society where
24:14everybody's honest is better off. And I
24:16think a lot of the virtues work this way
24:17right? If I don't go around sleeping
24:19with your wife and you don't sleep with
24:20mine and you know if I don't take all
24:22the food that's at the table first and
24:23so on, then we all get along better and
24:25we can play win-win games. Uh in game
24:28theory, the most famous game is
24:29prisoners dilemma. But that's all about
24:31everybody cheating and the Nash
24:32equilibrium. The stable equilibrium
24:34there is everybody cheats and you're for
24:36the only way you can be you can play a
24:38win-win game is if you have long-term
24:39iterated moves. But that's not actually
24:42the most common game played in society.
24:43The most common game played as one
24:45called a stags hunt where if we
24:47cooperate, we can bring down a big stag
24:49and both have big dinners, but if we
24:50don't cooperate, then we have to go hunt
24:52like rabbits and we each have small
24:53dinners.
24:54So most of uh and and that game has two
24:57stable equilibriums. And one could be
24:59where we're both hunting the rabbit and
25:01one could be where we're hunting the
25:02stag. So the high trust society is a
25:04more most more virtuous society where I
25:06can trust you to come hunt the stag with
25:08me and show up on time and do the work
25:09and divide it up properly. So you want
25:12to live in a system where everybody has
25:14their own set of virtues and follows
25:16them and then we all win. But I would
25:19argue you don't need to do that for
25:21sacrifice. You don't need to do that for
25:22other people. You can do it just purely
25:24for yourself. You will have higher
25:26self-esteem. You will attract other high
25:28virtue people.
25:29Would I go on a stag hunt with me?
25:31Correct. Yeah, that's right. And if
25:33you're the kind of person, if you're the
25:35kind of person who long-term signals
25:37ethics and virtues, then you will
25:39attract other people who are ethical and
25:42virtuous. Whereas, if you are a shark,
25:44you will eventually find yourself
25:46swimming entirely amongst sharks. And
25:47that's an unpleasant existence. But
25:49again, this goes back to the equivalent
25:51of the marshmallow test. And by the way,
25:53the marshmallow test does not replicate.
25:54I saw it replication crisis hard
25:57recently.
25:58But it is about trading off the short
26:00term for the long term. Uh, and so I
26:02think for a lot of these so-called
26:04virtues, there are long-term selfish
26:06reasons to be virtuous.
26:09Yeah. Uh, did you deal with self-doubt
26:13in the past? Is that something that was
26:15a hurdle for you to overcome?
26:17Yes and no. I think I I dealt with
26:19self-doubt in the sense that, oh, I
26:21don't know what I'm doing and I need to
26:23figure it out. Um, but I didn't doubt
26:27myself in the way of somebody else knows
26:29better than me for me or that, you know,
26:31I'm an idiot or I'm not worthwhile or
26:33anything that I I guess I had the
26:35benefit of I grew up with a lot of love
26:37like the people around me love me
26:38unconditionally. And so that just gave
26:41me a lot of confidence. Uh, not the kind
26:43of confidence that would say I have the
26:45answer, but the kind of confidence that
26:47I will figure it out and I know what I
26:49want or only I am a good arbiter of what
26:52I want.
26:53Yeah. That level of self-belief, I
26:55suppose, allows you to determine what is
26:57it that matters to me, my self-esteem,
27:00should I chase this thing or not? I can
27:02make a fair judgment on that as opposed
27:04to being so swayed. But it's such a good
27:06point about even if you think you're not
27:08consciously logging the stuff that
27:11you're doing, there is some that's in
27:13the back of your mind. Was it the Damon?
27:15Is that what the ancient Greeks or
27:17something used to talk about?
27:18Yeah. The Yeah. Also in computer science
27:20like there's a concept of a demon which
27:22is a uh a program that's always running
27:24in the background. You can't see it.
27:26Okay.
27:26Um but yeah, it probably comes from the
27:28ancient Greek demon. Uh but yeah, I what
27:32you know that you don't even know you
27:35know is far greater than what you know
27:37you know, right? You can't even
27:38articulate most of the things you know.
27:40There are feelings you have that have no
27:42words for them. There are thoughts you
27:44have that are felt within the body or
27:46subconsciously that you never articulate
27:48to yourself. You don't really you can't
27:50articulate the rules of grammar yet you
27:52exercise them effortlessly when you
27:54speak. So I would argue that your
27:56implicit knowledge and your knowledge
27:58that is unknown to yourself is far
27:59greater than the knowledge you can
28:00articulate and that you can communicate.
28:03And
28:05so at some level you're always watching
28:06yourself. That's what your consciousness
28:08is, right? It's the thing that's
28:09watching everything including your mind,
28:10including your body. M
28:12so if you want to uh have high
28:15self-esteem then earn your own
28:17selfrespect.
28:19I had this idea the internal golden
28:20rule. So the golden rule says treat
28:22others the way that you should be
28:24treated. You want to be treated. The
28:26internal golden rule says treat yourself
28:28like others should have treated you
28:30and it was a a repost to maybe people
28:34that didn't grow up with unconditional
28:36love. Yeah.
28:37In that way. On the love thing, one of
28:40the interesting things about love is you
28:41can try to remember the feeling of being
28:44loved. So go back to when someone was in
28:47love with you or someone did love you
28:49and like really remember that feeling
28:51like really sit with it and try to
28:52recreate it within yourself and then go
28:54to the feeling of you loving someone and
28:58when you were in love. And I'm not even
29:00talking about romantic love necessarily.
29:02So be a little careful there. I'm
29:03talking more about like love for
29:04it can sometimes get complex if you're
29:06talking about past romantic love,
29:07right? a sibling or a child or something
29:09like that or or a parent and uh think
29:12about when you felt love towards someone
29:14or something. And now which is better?
29:18And I would argue that the feeling of
29:20being in love is actually more
29:22exhilarating than the feeling of being
29:24loved. Being loved is a little clawing.
29:26It's a little too sweet. You kind of
29:27want to push the person away. It's a
29:29little embarrassing. And you know that
29:31if that person is too much into it that
29:32you feel constrained. On the other hand,
29:34the feeling of being in love is very
29:36expansive. It's very open. It actually
29:38makes you a better version of yourself.
29:39It makes you want to be a better person.
29:41And so you can create love anytime you
29:44want. It's just that craving to receive
29:46it. That's the problem.
29:47The most expensive trait is pride. How
29:49come?
29:50Oh, that was a recent one. Uh I I
29:52tweeted that just because I think that
29:56uh pride is the enemy of learning. So
29:57when I look at my friends and
29:59colleagues, the ones who are still stuck
30:01in the past and have grown the least are
30:03the ones who were the proudest because
30:06they sort of feel like they already had
30:08the answers. And so they don't want to
30:09correct themselves publicly. And so this
30:12goes back to the fame conversation. You
30:13get locked into something you said. It
30:15made you famous. You're known for that.
30:16And now you want to pivot or change.
30:18So pride prevents you from saying I'm
30:20wrong. It
30:21What's pride in this context here?
30:23It could be as simple as you're trading
30:25stocks and then you don't admit you were
30:26wrong. So you hang on to a lousy trait.
30:29Uh it could be that you uh made a
30:31decision to uh you know marry someone or
30:34move somewhere or enter a profession, it
30:36doesn't work out and then you don't want
30:37to admit that you were wrong so you get
30:39stuck in it. Uh it's mostly about
30:41getting trapped in local maxima as
30:43opposed to going back down and climbing
30:44up the mountain again.
30:45Mhm. And that's why it's an expensive
30:47trade because you continue to need to
30:48repay it in one form or another.
30:50Yeah. You're you're just stuck at a
30:51suboptimal point. Uh it's going to cost
30:54you money. it's going to cost you
30:55success
30:56and time
30:56and time. Uh the great artists always
30:58have this ability to start over whether
31:00it's Paul Simon or Madonna or you two
31:03and I'm dating myself a little bit. Um
31:05but even the great entrepreneurs,
31:06they're just always willing to start
31:08over. Uh I'm always struck by the Elon
31:10Musk story where, you know, he uh he did
31:13PayPal as X.com originally. Actually, it
31:15was his his financial institution that
31:17got merged into PayPal.
31:19It's good that you've got the domain.
31:20You know what I mean?
31:21Yeah, exactly. I'll park that. I'll hold
31:22on.
31:23He's consistent. He's been using it for
31:24quite a while. Um, and he said something
31:27like along the lines of, uh, I made $200
31:30million from the sale of PayPal. I put
31:32$100 million into SpaceX, 80 million
31:34Tesla, 20 into Solar City, and I had to
31:36borrow money for rent. Right? This guy
31:38is a perennial risk taker. He's always
31:40willing to start over. He doesn't have
31:41any pride about being seen as successful
31:43or being seen as a failure. He's willing
31:45to put it all in.
31:46Back himself again each time.
31:47Back himself again each time. But the
31:49key thing is he's always willing to
31:50start over, right? even now when he's
31:53sort of made his his new startup is a
31:55USA, right? He's basically trying to fix
31:58it like he would fix one of his
31:59startups. And I think that is a
32:02willingness to look like a fool and that
32:04is a willingness to start over. And a
32:06lot of people just don't have that. They
32:07become successful or they become rich or
32:09they become famous and that's it.
32:10They're stuck. They don't want to go
32:11back to zero. And creating anything
32:14great requires zero to one. And that
32:16means you go back to zero and that's
32:18really painful and hard to do. Talking
32:20about risk, something I've been thinking
32:22about a lot to do with you. Any moment
32:26when you're not having a good time, when
32:28you're not really happy, you're not
32:30doing anyone any favors. I think lots of
32:32people have become
32:34unusually familiar with suffering
32:37silently in that sort of a way of not
32:39having
32:41a high bar for your expectation for
32:44quality of life. Uh yeah, a lot of it is
32:46just you're memeing yourself into a bad
32:48outcome because you think that somehow
32:50suffering is glorious or that it makes
32:53you a better person or you know my old
32:55quip was if you're so smart why aren't
32:57you happy? Why can't you figure that one
32:59out? Um the reality is you can be smart
33:01and happy. There are plenty of people in
33:02human history who are smart and happy.
33:04Uh and I think it just starts with
33:06saying yeah you know what I'm I'm going
33:07to be happy. There was a guy that I met
33:09in Thailand a long time ago and uh he
33:12used to work for Tony Robbins. uh you
33:14know he had a great attitude and uh we
33:17were sitting around and he said you know
33:19uh he said I realized one day that
33:22someone out there had to be the happiest
33:25person in the world like there just that
33:26person just has to exist he said why not
33:28me I'll take on that burden I'll be that
33:31guy and I heard that I was like wow
33:33that's pretty good that's a good frame
33:34right he knew how to reframe things
33:36and so I think a lot of happiness is
33:38just a choice uh in the sense that you
33:40make first you just identify yourself as
33:43actually I'm going be a person that's
33:44going to be happy. I'm going to figure
33:45it out. And you just figure it out along
33:47the way. You're not going to lose your
33:48other predilictions. You're not going to
33:49lose your ambition or your desire for
33:51success. I think a lot of people have
33:53this fear that, oh, if I'm happy, then I
33:54won't want to be successful. No, you'll
33:56just want to do things that are more
33:58aligned with the happy version of you,
33:59and you'll be successful at those
34:00things. And believe me, the happy
34:02version of you is not going to look back
34:03at the unhappy version and say, "Oh man,
34:05that that guy was going to be more
34:07success. I wish I was him."
34:08You're actually trying to be successful
34:10so you'll be happy. That's the whole
34:11point. you have you've gotten it
34:12backwards.
34:13You you unlocked one of my trap cards.
34:15Um, one of my favorite insights is that
34:17we sacrifice the thing we want for the
34:19thing that's supposed to get it.
34:20So, we sacrifice happiness in order to
34:22be successful so that when we're finally
34:24sufficiently successful, we can actually
34:25be happy. And if you have some sort of
34:28simultaneous equation and you just sort
34:30of stripped success off from both sides,
34:33the at least in my own life, I have not
34:36found there to be a trade-off. If
34:37anything, I have found that the happier
34:39I get, the more I am going to do the
34:41things that I'm good at and aligned with
34:43and that will make me even happier. And
34:46so, I actually end up more successful,
34:48not less. The aligned with thing is
34:50interesting. Uh, I'm going to try and
34:52put this across as delicately as I can.
34:54I would say from the bit of time that
34:56we'd spent together, you have a really
34:58interesting trait of
35:01holistic selfishness. Uh, you're sort of
35:04prepared to put yourself first. um you
35:06seem largely unfazed by saying or doing
35:10things that might might result in other
35:12people feeling a little bit awkward if
35:13it's truthful for you. Uh it's like
35:16unapologetically self-prioritizing, I
35:19guess. Yeah, I think everybody is. Uh
35:21maybe unapologetic is the part that's
35:23that's relatively uh rare, but I think
35:26everybody puts themselves first. That's
35:27just human nature. You're you're here
35:29because you survive. You're a separate
35:31organism.
35:31That's interesting. I'm maybe. But I
35:33know we like to virtue signal and
35:35pretend we're doing it for each other.
35:36How many how many times does somebody
35:37say, "Yeah, of course. I'd love to come
35:39to the wedding." They're like, "I don't
35:40want to be at the [ __ ] wedding." How
35:41many times does someone say, "How are
35:42you doing today?" And they don't tell
35:43you. How many
35:44I don't go to weddings.
35:45But this is my point.
35:46So I don't think you're necessarily
35:47right with that. I think that people do
35:49I don't think they put themselves first.
35:51I sometimes think that they they
35:52compromise what it is that they want in
35:54order to appease socially what's in
35:57front of them.
35:59Yeah. I just view it as you're wast
36:00everyone's wasting their time on it. Um,
36:02don't do something you don't want to do.
36:05Why Why are you wasting your time?
36:06There's so little time on this earth.
36:08Life goes fast. What is it? 4,000 weeks.
36:10That's your lifespan. Um, and and yes,
36:13we hear that, but we don't remember it.
36:14But, uh, I guess I'm keenly aware of how
36:17little time I have, so I'm just not
36:18going to waste it. How have you got more
36:21comfortable at um,
36:25being the unapologetic self-
36:27prioritizer?
36:28Yeah, I've gotten I've gotten utterly
36:29more and more ruthless on it. Ma mainly
36:31it's that I see or hear people's freedom
36:34and then that liberates me further. So I
36:37read a uh I read a blog post by uh P
36:40Mark aka Mark Andre where he said don't
36:42keep a schedule and I took that to
36:44heart. So I deleted my calendar and I
36:46don't keep a schedule. I try to remember
36:47it all in my head. If I can't remember
36:48it, I'm not going to add
36:49I'm glad you got here on time.
36:51Yeah, exactly. Um
36:53I hate to look things up at the last
36:54minute. Mhm.
36:55Uh so, but ironically, I don't even know
36:57if Mark himself follows that, but he
36:59made the correct point. Uh I read a
37:01little story about Jack Dorsey doing all
37:03his business off his uh iPhone and iPad
37:06and not even going into a Mac, and I
37:07said, "Okay, I want to do that." So, I'm
37:08going to operate through text messaging
37:10and not put up my nasty email.
37:11Does that feel like more freedom?
37:12It does. Yeah. Cuz you're on the go. Um
37:15so, I have a nasty email autoresponder
37:17that says, "I don't check email and
37:18don't text me either." Right. If you
37:20need to find me, you'll find me.
37:21Obviously, some of this is a luxury of
37:23success, but some of these habits I
37:25adopted long before actually the hostile
37:27email autoresponder started a long time
37:29ago. Um, I used to own the domain. I let
37:32it go. I don't do coffee.com. I used to
37:34reply from that email uh just so people
37:37would get the point. But I stopped being
37:39rude about it. Now I just ghost. I just
37:40disappear. Um, my wife knows not to ever
37:44uh book or schedule me for anything. Uh,
37:47I'm not expect I'm not expected to go to
37:50couples dinners. I'm not expect to go to
37:51birthdays. I'm not expect to go to
37:53weddings. If somebody tries to rope her
37:55into having me show up, she says he
37:56makes his own decisions. You got to ask
37:57him directly.
37:58What about vice
37:58versa? Well, are you not killing
38:00serendipity in a way that
38:02No, no. I'm freeing up all my time. So,
38:03my entire life is serendipity. I get to
38:05interact with whoever I want, whenever I
38:07want, wherever.
38:08You'll hear the invite, but make the
38:09decision because if you're if there's
38:12fewer things in coming, you're assuming
38:13that you know what's best for you to
38:15anything in the future. So, I'll say,
38:16"Okay, if that thing is interesting,
38:18I'll see if I can get in that day when
38:20I'm in the mood." But there's nothing
38:22worse than something coming up that your
38:24past self committed you to that your
38:26present self doesn't want to do.
38:27God damn it.
38:28Past. Yeah. And then it destroys your
38:30entire calendar. It destroys your your
38:32day because there's like, oh, this 1
38:33hour slot which is sitting like a turd
38:35on my calendar that I have to like
38:37schedule my whole day around. I can't do
38:38anything the 20 minutes before, the 20
38:40minutes afterwards.
38:41Even for phone calls, if someone wants
38:42to do a phone call, say, "Okay, just
38:44text me when you're free. I'll text you
38:45when I'm free." and we'll just do it on
38:46the fly. It's a much better way of
38:48living than this overly scheduled uh you
38:50know cal.com or iical whatever.
38:53The uh the overscheduled life is not
38:55worth living.
38:55It's not. I think it's a terrible way to
38:57live life. That's not how we evolved.
38:58It's not how we grew up. Um it's not how
39:00how we were as children hopefully uh
39:02unless you're a helicopter parent or a
39:04tiger mom.
39:05Um
39:06your natural order is freedom. Uh I had
39:09a friend who uh said to me once, you
39:12know, uh I never want to have to be at a
39:14specific place at a specific time. And I
39:16was like, "Oh my god, that's freedom."
39:18When I heard that, that changed my life
39:19right there.
39:20You still arm alarm clockless?
39:22Yes, I'm alarm clockless. Today, I did
39:24set my alarm clock just so I wouldn't
39:26miss this.
39:27Very important. Yeah. If you still,
39:28but just so you know, I set the alarm
39:29clock from 11:00 a.m. in case I was
39:31stricken with a flu that day. I wasn't
39:34going to set my alarm clock for 8:00
39:35a.m. or 9:00 a.m. And sure enough, I got
39:37up many hours before that.
39:39Um, but it was sort of a backup
39:40emergency alarm. In fact, sometimes when
39:42I something
39:43that I need to do, I don't want to look
39:46at a calendar, so I'll just set an alarm
39:48for it.
39:50Just sink a little bit more into that
39:54like kind of that [ __ ] you energy, that
39:56self- prioritizing energy because I
39:58think people rationally love the idea of
40:00this. I'm going to do what only I want
40:01to do. uh even if they've got the level
40:03of freedom,
40:04it's not [ __ ] you energy in the sense
40:05that I think everyone should live their
40:07life that way to the greatest extent
40:08possible. Obviously, we have our
40:10requirements around work and obligations
40:13that are genuinely important to us. But
40:15don't fritter away your life on randomly
40:18scheduled things and things that aren't
40:20important don't matter and events and
40:22weddings and you know tedious dinners
40:25with tedious people that you don't want
40:26to go to. To the extent you can bring
40:28freedom into your life, optimize for
40:30that, you'll actually be more
40:31productive. You won't just be happier
40:33and more free. You will be more
40:34productive because then you can focus on
40:36what is in front of you, whatever the
40:37biggest problem of that day. When I wake
40:40up in the morning, uh the first 4 hours
40:42are when I have the most energy and
40:44that's when I want to solve all the hard
40:46problems. And the next 4 hours are when
40:49I kind of want to, you know, do some
40:51more outdoorsy activities or I want to
40:52work out or maybe I can, you know, have
40:55some meetings, but I'll try to do those
40:57last second based on whatever the day's
40:59priorities demand. the last 4 hours I
41:01kind of want to wind down. I want to
41:02hang out with the kids and I want to
41:03play games or read a book or something
41:05like that.
41:06So having that flexibility and freedom
41:08is really important. So you can just put
41:11whatever is most needed into the slot at
41:14that moment. Uh and instead if I have
41:17like a meeting at 2 p.m. and then I have
41:19to like get a thing and some emails
41:21done, I put that off till 6 p.m. I'm
41:23rushing. I'm not going to be productive.
41:24I'm not going to be uh
41:26You're certainly not free.
41:27You're not I'm definitely not free. But
41:29also another thing that I really believe
41:31is that inspiration is perishable. Act
41:33on it immediately. So when you're
41:35inspired to do something, do that thing.
41:37If I'm inspired to write a blog post, I
41:39want to do it at that moment. If I'm
41:40inspired to send a tweet, I want to do
41:41it at that moment. If I'm inspired to
41:42solve a problem, I do it that moment. If
41:44I'm inspired to read a book, I want to
41:45read it right then. If I'm inspired to
41:46solve a problem, I solve it right there.
41:48If I want to learn something, I I do it
41:50at the moment of curiosity. The moment
41:52the curiosity arrives, I go learn that
41:53thing immediately. I download the book.
41:55I get on Google. I get on ChatGpt,
41:57whatever. I will figure that thing out
41:59on the spot and that's when the learning
42:01happens. It doesn't happen because I've
42:03scheduled time because I've set an hour
42:05aside because when that time arrives I
42:07might be in a different mood. I might
42:08just want to do something different.
42:09So I think that spontaneity is really
42:12important. You're going to learn best
42:13when you're having fun when you
42:14generally are enjoying the process not
42:16when you're forced to sit there and do
42:18it. How much do you remember from
42:19school? You know you were forced to
42:21learn geography, history, mathematics on
42:23this schedule at this time according to
42:24this person. Didn't happen. All the
42:26stuff that sticks with you is you
42:28learned it when you wanted to, when you
42:30genuinely had the desire. And that
42:32freedom, that ability to act on
42:34something the moment you want to is so
42:36liberating that most of us go through
42:38our lives with very very little tastes
42:40of that. If you live your entire life
42:42that way, that is a recipe for
42:43happiness.
42:44It feels like efficiency that that you
42:47have
42:47efficient also.
42:48You have the inspiration that is going
42:50to be the most frictionless time to ever
42:52do that particular task. So, oh, I've
42:54had the inspiration to do that. I'll put
42:56that off until a time when I no longer
42:57really want to do it quite so much. And
42:58while I do want to do that thing, I'll
43:00do something else that I needed to do
43:01because it's on the schedule.
43:02It does not work. Procrastination is
43:04because you don't want to do that thing
43:05right now. You want to do something
43:06else. Go do that something else. I
43:08reject this frame that efficiency and
43:10productivity and success are counter to
43:13happiness and freedom. They actually go
43:15together.
43:16How so?
43:18The happier you are, the more you can
43:19sustain doing something, the more likely
43:21you're going to do something that will
43:22in turn make you even happier. and
43:24you'll continue to do it and you'll
43:24outwork everybody else. The more free
43:26you are, the better you can allocate
43:28your time and the less you're caught up
43:29in a web of obligations and commitments
43:31and the more you can focus on the task
43:33at hand. In other news, this episode is
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44:15functionhealth.com/modernwisdom.
44:18That's functionhealth.com/modernwisdism.
44:22This is related to another insight of
44:23yours. The less you want something, the
44:25less you're thinking about it, the less
44:26you're obsessing over it, the more
44:28you're going to do it in a natural way,
44:30the more you're going to do it for
44:31yourself, you're going to do it in a way
44:32that you're good at and you're going to
44:34stick with it. The people around you
44:35will see the quality of your work is
44:37higher. But this seems like a difficult
44:38tension to navigate because an obsessive
44:43attention to detail is a competitive
44:44advantage of your work as well. So you
44:47have these two things sort of
44:48conflicting with each other. No one is
44:50going to beat you at being you if it So
44:53one of the things I like to say is like
44:55find what feels like play to you but
44:58looks like work to others. So it looks
45:01like work to them but to you it feels
45:03like play. It's not work. So you're
45:05going to out compete them because you're
45:06doing it effortlessly. You're doing it
45:08for fun. They're doing it for work.
45:09They're doing it for some byproduct. To
45:11you it's art. It's beauty. It's joy.
45:13It's it's flow. It's fulfilling. Uh, you
45:17must enjoy podcasting. If you didn't,
45:19you wouldn't be good at it. You would
45:22either, right? If you would, you if if
45:24you decided that the right way to get
45:26ahead in life was to go write books, you
45:28would nobody would have heard of you.
45:30Chris Williamson's book would be a
45:31complete flop. That's not who you are.
45:33You're a podcaster. You enjoy talking to
45:35people. You enjoy interviewing them. The
45:37more you do things that are natural to
45:39you, the less competition you have. You
45:41escape competition through authenticity.
45:45by being your own self. If I had to
45:47summarize how to be successful in life
45:49in two words, I would just say
45:51productize yourself. That's it. Just
45:54figure out what it is that you naturally
45:56do that the world might want that you
45:59can scale up and turn into a product and
46:02it'll be it'll eventually be effortless
46:04for you. Yes, there's always work
46:06required, but it won't even feel like
46:07work to you. It'll feel like play to
46:09you. And modern society gives us that
46:12opportunity. You know, if you were 2,000
46:14years ago, you're born in a farm. Your
46:16choices are very limited, right? You're
46:18going to do stuff on that farm. Now, you
46:20can literally wake up and you can move
46:22to a different city. You can switch
46:24careers. You can switch jobs. You can
46:26change the people that you're with. Uh,
46:28you know, you can change so many things
46:29about who you are and who you're with
46:31and what you're doing that there is
46:33infinite opportunity out there for you.
46:35Literally infinite. And so it's much
46:38better to treat this like a search
46:39function to find the people who need you
46:41the most, to find the work that needs
46:42you the most, to find the place you're
46:44best suited to be at. And it's
46:46worthwhile to spend time in that
46:48exploration before diving into
46:49exploitation. The biggest mistake in a
46:52world with so many choices is premature
46:54commitment. If you prematurely commit to
46:56being a lawyer or a doctor and now
46:57you've got like, you know, 5 years
46:59invested into that, you might have just
47:01completely missed. You might just end up
47:03in the wrong profession, the wrong
47:05place, or the wrong people for 30 years
47:06of your life grinding away. And yes, the
47:08best time to figure that out was before,
47:10but the second best time is now. So,
47:12just change it.
47:13And also, presumably kill things that
47:16aren't working very quickly.
47:19By default, you should kill everything.
47:21You know, if you can't decide, the
47:22answer is no. Uh, and most things you
47:25should just be saying no to. The part of
47:27my keeping my calendar free is just by
47:29default saying no to everything. Do I
47:31want to create a calendar just to add
47:33your event, right? Or to add your need
47:36or your desire. One of the other things
47:38about, you know, early on in life,
47:40you're looking for opportunities. So,
47:41you're saying yes to everything. And
47:43that is a phase that you go through.
47:44That is the exploration phase. Later,
47:46when you found the thing you want to
47:48work on, you're in the exploitation
47:49phase. You have to say no to everything
47:51by default. And if you don't say no to
47:53everything by default, if you have to
47:55even explicitly go out of your way to
47:56say no to something, that will take up
47:58time. Uh, for example, you know, there
48:00there are a lot of people out there who
48:01are into hustle culture and and a big
48:03piece of hustle culture is like, well,
48:05you're not going to get something if you
48:06don't ask for it. So, they'll hustle
48:08people. They'll always be sending you
48:09requests, messages. Yeah, this is a
48:11famous person problem, but I have it.
48:13And people are always asking me for
48:14things. And I kind of squirm when I get
48:16these messages, and I'm sure you get
48:18these two text messages, emails saying,
48:19"Hey, Chris, my friend so and so should
48:22really be on your podcast, or you should
48:23come to my event. You should write a
48:24forward for my book." And you kind of
48:26squirm when you get this, right? You
48:27have to figure out how to say no. And
48:29one of the things I learned along the
48:30way is that if you wouldn't ask somebody
48:33else to do it and then you get that
48:35request yourself, you can just dismiss
48:36it. You don't have to respond. You don't
48:38you don't even let let it enter your
48:40brain. You have to be able to delete
48:41emails and text messages without
48:42flinching if you want to scale. And
48:44scaling is very important. Scaling your
48:46time is really important. Every
48:47interruption will take you out of flow.
48:49So the only way you can remain in flow
48:51is if you get either very good at
48:53ignoring these things by default or
48:55closing yourself off like a hermit like
48:56our mutual friend Tim Ferris does or you
49:00just become emotionally capable of not
49:04registering these as something that
49:06causes turbulence inside of you.
49:08That not registering it emotionally
49:10thing is that uh
49:12it's fundamental. That's so fundamental
49:14to so many things in life.
49:15Okay. Can we dig into that a little bit?
49:17is because again I've only seen you as
49:19you right I didn't know you 20 years ago
49:20I didn't know you as a child um so I've
49:23only seen you with this
49:26holistic selfishness the in integrated
49:29self- prioritization whatever we I don't
49:31know what we called it
49:31selfish is fine I'll take selfish I'm
49:33selfish I'm very selfish person don't
49:35contact me
49:38uh yeah that emotional reaction I also
49:40get the sense too that
49:42maybe people have lived obligation life
49:46for so long that they actually kind of
49:49struggle to tap into what it is that
49:51they want. They've hidden their wants
49:52and their desires and their needs and
49:54they've dep prioritized themselves so
49:55much for so long they go, "What do I
49:58want actually? What what is it? Do I
50:00want to go to this thing or not?"
50:01Because all I've done is be [ __ ]
50:03puppeted, right? I've been marionetted
50:06by other people's desires for so so so
50:08long. I can't even tap into that
50:09anymore. And saying no feels like a war
50:12crime. So, so I think it's really good
50:14to be able to view your own mind and
50:16your own thoughts objectively and that
50:18is the big benefit of meditation. It
50:20creates a small gap between your
50:23conscious observation self and your mind
50:26and that lets you then look at your
50:28thoughts and evaluate them a little bit
50:30like you would a third party's
50:32statements. And uh if you just take your
50:35mind to be you and they're integrated in
50:37one and the same at all times and you're
50:38reacting from the mind, then you're not
50:40even going to question things that come
50:42into your mind. Anything that comes in
50:43that creates a reaction will immediately
50:44create a reaction. But if you can
50:47observe your thoughts a little bit and
50:49not in some woo way, but you can even
50:50just do it through therapy, you can do
50:52it through journaling, you can do it any
50:53way you would like, you can just take
50:54long walks, you don't have to meditate
50:55and do lotus position. uh all that is
50:58unnecessary. But if you can observe your
51:00own thoughts and view them a little
51:02objectively, then you can start being uh
51:05a little more choosy, a little more
51:06critical and you can realize that there
51:08are no problems in the real world other
51:11than maybe things that inflict pain on
51:13your body. Everything else has to become
51:15a problem in your mind first. You have
51:18to view it and interpret it and create a
51:20narrative that it is a problem before it
51:22becomes a problem. And then you realize
51:24that a lot of your emotional energy is
51:28spent on reacting to things that your
51:30mind is automatically saying are
51:32problems. Uh and you don't need all
51:34those problems. Do you really need that
51:36many problems in your life? Again, I
51:38would say try to focus on just one
51:40overarching problem and then go solve
51:42that problem. It's like if you want to
51:44be successful, define success very
51:46concretely. Focus on that. In everything
51:47else, when it enters your mind, it
51:49becomes a problem. Whether it's a
51:51judgment about the girl walking down the
51:52street or the car that just cut in front
51:54of you or whether it's like you know
51:56this your accountant did this stupid
51:58thing like yes it's going to trigger you
52:00but observe for a moment that like it's
52:02triggering me. I've created a problem.
52:04Do I really want to have this problem
52:05right now? Do I want to spend the energy
52:06on this problem or do I want that going
52:08somewhere else? And it it doesn't have
52:10to be that overt. You don't have to the
52:11mind mud wrestling with itself is also a
52:13problem but because it loves to do that.
52:15I have my problems have got problems and
52:17I have a real problem about fixing my
52:18problems.
52:19Yeah. Exactly. So you just you're going
52:22to be much happier and much more
52:24focused. Again, I think happiness and
52:26focus and success can kind of complement
52:28each other. You're going to have much
52:31more energy. Just think about as mental
52:33energy. You have much more mental energy
52:34to focus on the actual problems you want
52:36to solve if you don't start
52:38unconsciously, subconsciously,
52:41reactively picking up problems
52:42everywhere. So before anything can be a
52:45problem that takes up your emotional
52:46energy, you have to accept it as a
52:48problem. You can be choosy about your
52:50problems. And I'm not saying I'm perfect
52:52in that regard, but I think I'm better
52:54than I used to be.
52:54Well, lots of people are addicted to
52:56solving problems. So much so that
52:58sometimes people create problems when we
53:01don't have any simply so that we can
53:03solve them. We have that going on. And
53:05then even worse is we take on problems
53:06that we can't affect. So, uh, you know,
53:09another one of my little quips was, uh,
53:12you know, um, a rational person, uh,
53:15can, uh, sort of a rational person
53:19should should cultivate indifference to
53:21things that are out of their control,
53:23right? Uh, or a rational person can find
53:25peace by cultivating indifference to
53:27things that are out of their control.
53:28Uh, and I'm as guilty as anybody of doom
53:31surfing on X or social media and getting
53:34worked up about things that I can't do
53:35anything about, right? like, do I want
53:37to be fighting those battles in my mind
53:39when I literally cannot do anything
53:40about it? So, if you find yourself
53:42looping on a problem, like you're
53:44watching the news too much and you're
53:45getting caught up in a problem you can't
53:46do anything about, um, you have to step
53:49away from that. And, uh, modern media is
53:53a delivery mechanism for mimetic
53:56viruses. And now, what's happened now
53:59is, you know, 100 years ago, 500 years
54:01ago, if something wasn't happening in
54:03your immediate vicinity, you wouldn't
54:05hear about it. it wouldn't be a problem
54:06for you. But now every single one of the
54:09world's problems has turned into a
54:11mimemetic virus which is going into the
54:13battlefield of the news and is trying to
54:16infect your mind in real time so that
54:18yeah so that you become obsessed with
54:20the war in Ukraine which is really far
54:22away or you get obsessed with climate
54:24change or you get obsessed with AI doom
54:26or you get obsessed with whatever and
54:27there's nothing as riveting as the old
54:29religion the world is ending the world
54:31is ending pay attention the world is
54:32ending and if you don't
54:34Cassandra complex at global scale
54:35Cassandra complex at global scale Well,
54:37and I would argue that large percentages
54:38of the population are essentially just
54:40infected with these mimetic viruses that
54:42have taken over their brain and are
54:44causing them to do incredible girration
54:45about things that probably aren't even
54:47true or are greatly exaggerated. But
54:50even to the extent they are true,
54:51they're things that that person can do
54:52nothing about. And they should put their
54:54own house in order first. So, you know,
54:57another little line I have for myself is
54:59your family is broken, but you're going
55:01to fix the world. Right? People are
55:02running out there to try and fix the
55:04world when their own lives are a mess.
55:05Oh my god.
55:06Right? And and I think it defies
55:08credibility if you can't fix your own
55:10life first. I'm not going to take you
55:11seriously if you can't fix your own
55:13life. Like all these philosophers who,
55:15you know, seem like people you emulate
55:17and so smart or like these brilliant
55:19celebrities and they go off and commit
55:20suicide. Well, you just kind of
55:21invalidated your whole way of life.
55:23It's like that line of in No Country for
55:26All Men where the killer is waiting for
55:27the protagonist and protagonist shows up
55:29and the killer says, "Well, you know, if
55:31your set of rules brought you here, then
55:33what good are your rules?" I didn't
55:36work. Um I I I I am self I'm
55:39holistically selfish in in that I want
55:41to be objectively successful in
55:43everything I set out to want.
55:46Mhm. Yeah. Uh you have one life. Don't
55:48settle for mediocrity.
55:49Don't settle for mediocrity. And and I
55:51think the only like people debate
55:52intelligence for example, right? We talk
55:54about IQ tests and all that, but I think
55:57the only true test of intelligence is if
55:59you get what you want out of life. And
56:01there are two parts to that. One is
56:04getting what you want so you know how to
56:06get it. And the second is wanting the
56:07right things. Knowing what to want in
56:09the first place. I could want to be a,
56:11you know, 6'8 basketball player and I'm
56:13not going to get that. So it's wanting
56:15the wrong thing. So
56:16that's wanting something that you can't
56:17get.
56:18That's wanting something you can't get.
56:19Is also wanting something that you don't
56:20want.
56:21Yeah. Wanting something that's a booby
56:23prize. There are plenty of booby prizes
56:24out there, too. Right.
56:25I haven't heard that word in about 20
56:27years.
56:27Yeah. Prizes that are just not worth
56:28having or that create their own
56:30problems. Well, if you're not careful,
56:31you can end up in a place in life not
56:33only that you don't want to be, but one
56:34that you didn't even mean to get to.
56:37That's if you're kind of proceeding
56:38unconsciously. Uh but and usually I
56:41think people end up there because they
56:43are uh going on autopilot with sort of
56:46societal expectations or other people's
56:47expectations. So, uh you know, or out of
56:50guilt or out of like uh mimemetic
56:52desire. You know, Peter Teal has this
56:53whole thing from Rene Gerard about how
56:56mimemetic desires are desires are picked
56:57up from other people. Uh, and some of
56:59those are automatically baked into
57:01society like, you know, go to law
57:02school, go to med school, go to
57:03whatever, go to business school. Um, or
57:06they might be from watching what your
57:07friends are doing and, you know, the
57:09other monkeys are doing. Um, or it might
57:11just be, you know, what your parents
57:13expectations are. I might be a guilt.
57:14You know, guilt is just society's voice
57:16speaking in your head, socially
57:17programmed, so you'll be a good little
57:18monkey and do things that are good for
57:20the tribe.
57:21Um, but I think the the the best
57:23outcomes come when you think it through
57:25for yourself and decide for yourself.
57:26And I don't think people spend enough
57:28time deciding. For example, we run on
57:30these uh four-year cycles. You know, in
57:34Silicon Valley, you go join a startup,
57:36you vest your stock over four years.
57:38That's the standard. Okay? Um uh in u uh
57:42college, you know, you go for four
57:43years. High school, you go for four
57:45years. Um some things take longer. You
57:47know, you have children, they hit
57:48puberty 9 years later. That's like a
57:499-year cycle until that relationship
57:51changes. Um but we're used to these
57:54fairly long cycles, multi-year cycles in
57:57which we are committed to things. You go
57:58to law school, you know, four or five
58:00year cycle. You go be a lawyer, 40-year
58:03cycle. These are very long cycles. The
58:06amount of time we spend deciding what to
58:09do and who to do it with, very short,
58:11very very short, right? We spend, you
58:14know, 3 months deciding, one month
58:16deciding on a job where we're going to
58:17be for 10 years or 5 years. And because
58:20a lot of discovery is path dependent
58:22where the next thing you find on the
58:24path is depend on where you were on the
58:25previous path. You sort of start going
58:27down this vector that is a very long
58:29distance. People decide frivolously
58:31which city to live in and that's going
58:33to decide who their friends are, what
58:34their jobs are, their opportunity, their
58:36weather, their food supply, their air
58:37supply, quality of life. You know, it's
58:39such an important decision, but people
58:40spend so little time thinking it
58:42through. I would argue that if you're
58:43making a four-year decision, spend a
58:45year thinking it through. Like really
58:46thinking it through.
58:4725% of the time.
58:48Yeah. Exactly. There's the secretary
58:50theorem. I don't know if you know that
58:51one.
58:52Computer science.
58:52After you've done this many people, pick
58:54the best one of the next however many.
58:56That's right.
58:56Yeah. The secretary theorem is this
58:58computer science professor is trying to
58:59figure out uh how much time he should
59:01spend interviewing secretaries and then
59:02how long to keep the secretary. So let's
59:05say he's going to have a secretary for
59:0610 years. Does he keep searching for you
59:08know one year, 2 years, 3 years, 1
59:10month, 2 months? What is the optimal
59:12time? Uh and it turns out that the
59:14optimal time is somewhere around a
59:16third. about a third of the way through,
59:18you take the best person you've worked
59:20with and try to find someone that good
59:22or better. So that by the time you've
59:24gotten about a third of the way through,
59:26you have, excuse me, seen enough that
59:29you now have a sense of what the bar is.
59:32And then anybody who meets or exceeds
59:33that bar is good enough.
59:35And this applies to dating, this applies
59:37to jobs and careers, this applies
59:38generally. But the interesting thing
59:40about the secretary theorem is that it's
59:42actually not time based. It's not based
59:44on onethird of the time. It's iteration
59:46based.
59:47The number of candidates,
59:48the number of shots you took on goal.
59:50That's right. So, you want to have lots
59:52and lots of iterations. So, that means
59:53that you need to bail out quickly and
59:54you need to be decisive quickly.
59:56That's right.
59:57You need to you need to take
59:58opportunities quickly and bail out
1:00:00quickly.
1:00:00Correct. Like if you go back and you
1:00:02look through failed relationships, uh
1:00:04probably the biggest regret will be
1:00:06staying in the relationship after you
1:00:07knew it was over.
1:00:08Exactly. You should have left sooner.
1:00:09The moment you knew it wasn't going to
1:00:10work out, you should have moved on. So
1:00:12in that sense, I think Malcolm Gladwell
1:00:13popularized this idea of 10,000 hours to
1:00:16mastery. I would say it's actually
1:00:1710,000 iterations to mastery. It's not
1:00:19actually 10,000. It's some unknown
1:00:21number. But it's about the number of
1:00:22iterations that drives a learning curve.
1:00:25And iteration is not repetition.
1:00:27Repetition is a different thing.
1:00:28Repeating is doing the same thing over
1:00:29and over. Iteration is modifying it with
1:00:32a learning and then doing another
1:00:34version of it. So that's error
1:00:36correction. So if you get 10,000 error
1:00:38corrections in anything, you will be an
1:00:39expert at it. don't partner with cynics
1:00:42and pessimists. You mentioned there
1:00:43about uh the people who've got a
1:00:45nightmare going on at home and are
1:00:46trying to fix the world. But a lot of
1:00:48the time that cynicism and pessimism we
1:00:51find in ourselves. We see the world
1:00:53whether we want to whether it's because
1:00:54we've embied what the news or or the
1:00:57negative people around us have said or
1:00:59it's a bit more kind of endogenous than
1:01:01that. It's just sort of in us. It's the
1:01:03way that we see the world. How can
1:01:04people
1:01:06avoid cynicism and pessimism within
1:01:08themselves?
1:01:09Yeah. Synism and pessimism is a tough
1:01:11one. It's we're naturally hardwired for
1:01:13it. Again, I go back to evolution. I I'm
1:01:15sorry to keep harping on evolution, but
1:01:16within biology, there's very few good
1:01:18explanatory theories. And you know,
1:01:20theory of evolution by natural selection
1:01:21is probably the best one. So, if you
1:01:24can't explain something about life or
1:01:25psychology or human nature through
1:01:27evolution, then you probably don't have
1:01:28a good theory for it. And I would say
1:01:31that pessimism is another one that comes
1:01:33out of this, which is in the natural
1:01:34environment, you're hardwired to be
1:01:36pessimistic. Because let's say that I
1:01:38see something rustling in the woods and
1:01:40if I move towards it and it turns out to
1:01:42be food and prey then good I get to eat
1:01:44one meal but if it turns out to be a
1:01:46predator I get eaten and that's the end
1:01:47of that. So we are hardwired to avoid
1:01:50ruin um and and uh you know just dying.
1:01:54So we are naturally hardwired to be
1:01:56pessimists but modern society is very
1:01:58different despite whatever problems you
1:02:00may have with modern society. It is far
1:02:01far safer than living in the jungle and
1:02:03just trying to survive. uh and the
1:02:06opportunities on the upside are
1:02:08nonlinear. For example, when you're
1:02:10investing, if you short a stock, you the
1:02:12most money you can make is 2x. You just
1:02:14lose, you know, if the stock goes to
1:02:15zero, you double your money. But if the
1:02:17stock is the next Nvidia and it goes
1:02:19100x or a,000x, you make a lot of money.
1:02:22So upside through because of leverage is
1:02:24nearly unlimited.
1:02:26Uh also in modern society, because
1:02:28there's so many different people you can
1:02:30interact with, if you go on a date and
1:02:32it fails, there are infinite more people
1:02:33to go on a date with. In a tribal
1:02:35system, there might have been 20 people
1:02:36and you can't even get through all of
1:02:38them. So, modern society is far more
1:02:40forgiving of failure. And you just have
1:02:42to sort of neoccortically realize and
1:02:44override that. You have to realize that
1:02:45you're much more running a search
1:02:47function to find the thing that'll work.
1:02:49And then that one thing will pay off in
1:02:51massive compounding. Once you find your
1:02:53mate for the rest of your life, you find
1:02:55your wife or your husband, then you can
1:02:57compound in that relationship. It's okay
1:02:58if you had 50 failed dates in between.
1:03:01The same way once you find the one
1:03:02business you're meant to plow into and
1:03:04it'll compound returns. It's okay if you
1:03:06had 50 small failed ventures or 50 small
1:03:08failed job interviews. It doesn't the
1:03:10number of failures doesn't matter. And
1:03:12so there's no point in being a
1:03:13pessimist. It's you want to be an
1:03:15optimist. But I would say you want to be
1:03:18you want to be skeptical about specific
1:03:20things. Every specific opportunity is
1:03:23probably a fail. But you want to be
1:03:24optimistic in the general. In the
1:03:26general you want to be like something in
1:03:28here is going to work out.
1:03:28How do you navigate that tension?
1:03:31I mean, exactly as I said, I'm
1:03:32optimistic in the general that if
1:03:34something fails right now, then this is
1:03:36a little woowoo, but it wasn't meant to
1:03:38be. It was a learning experience. It was
1:03:39an iteration. As long as I learned
1:03:41something from it, then it's a win. If I
1:03:42didn't learn from it, then it's a loss.
1:03:44But as long as you're learning and you
1:03:46keep iterating fast and cutting your
1:03:48losses quickly, then when you find the
1:03:50right thing, you have to be optimistic
1:03:52and compound into it. So, you don't want
1:03:54to jump into the first thing. And you
1:03:56don't want to marry the first person you
1:03:57date necessarily, unless you got very
1:03:59lucky.
1:04:00Um, but you you want to investigate and
1:04:03explore very very quickly until you find
1:04:05the match. And then you have to be
1:04:07willing to go all in. You have to be
1:04:08willing to move your chips to the center
1:04:09of the table. So both those uh both
1:04:13those uh approaches are required.
1:04:16So it's a barbell strategy. It's sort of
1:04:18black or it's white. And most people are
1:04:20sort of stuck in this gray bit. And I'm
1:04:21like half in, but I'm kind of don't
1:04:23really know if I am. I also think like
1:04:24labels like pessimist, optimist, cynic,
1:04:28introvert, extrovert, these are very
1:04:31self-limiting. Humans are very dynamic.
1:04:34There are times when you feel like being
1:04:35introverted. There are times when you
1:04:36feel like being extroverted. There are
1:04:37contexts in which you'll be pessimistic.
1:04:39There are contexts in which you'll be
1:04:40optimistic.
1:04:42Leave all those labels alone. It's
1:04:44better just to look at the problem at
1:04:46hand. Look at reality the way it is. Try
1:04:49to take yourself out of the equation in
1:04:51a in a sense. Like obviously you're
1:04:53involved, but motivated reasoning is the
1:04:56worst kind of reasoning. Uh you're not
1:04:58going to find truth through highly
1:04:59motivated reasoning. You have to be
1:05:00objective. And objective means trying to
1:05:02take yourself out of it as much as
1:05:03possible or at least your personality
1:05:05out of it as much as possible.
1:05:06And so to the extent you run with this
1:05:09thick identity and personality, it's
1:05:11going to cloud your judgment. It's going
1:05:12to try and lock you into the past. If
1:05:15you say, "I'm a depressed, unhappy
1:05:17person. Yeah, I'm going to be unhappy."
1:05:18That's a way of locking yourself into
1:05:20your past. even saying, "I have trauma.
1:05:22I have PTSD." Yeah, you you feel
1:05:24something. There are memories. There are
1:05:25flashes. There are occasional bad
1:05:27feelings. But don't define yourself by
1:05:29it because then you'll lock it into your
1:05:31identity and you're just going to loop
1:05:32on it. It's better to stay flexible
1:05:34because reality is always changing and
1:05:36you have to be able to adapt to it.
1:05:38Adaptation is also intelligence.
1:05:39Adaptation is survival. Adaptation is
1:05:42kind of how you're here. You're here
1:05:43because you're an adapter and your
1:05:44ancestors were adapters. So to adapt,
1:05:47you will be able to see things clearly.
1:05:49And if you're seeing them through your
1:05:50own identity, it's going to cloud your
1:05:52judgment. A quick aside, you've probably
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1:07:06That's drinklnt.com/modern
1:07:11wisdom.
1:07:15[Laughter]
1:07:20Moving on to sort of thinking about
1:07:22happiness. Obviously a topic of yours
1:07:24that's a
1:07:26it's honestly the one that I feel least
1:07:27qualified to talk about.
1:07:29Is it like a guy that's got long arms
1:07:30teaching you how to bench press or a
1:07:32dude that's really tall teaching you how
1:07:33to deadlift? someone that feels like
1:07:34they came from behind the eightball.
1:07:36Yeah. Is you're you're asking a crazy
1:07:38person about their thoughts. So, just
1:07:41thought it through. Is happiness still
1:07:43more about peace than it is about joy?
1:07:46It's just one of those overloaded words
1:07:48that means different things to different
1:07:49people. So, I'm not even sure we're
1:07:51communicating the same language. But, uh
1:07:56what is happiness?
1:08:00I think it's just basically being okay
1:08:02with where you are.
1:08:06Not wanting
1:08:08not wanting things to be different than
1:08:10the way they are. Not having the sense
1:08:11that anything is missing in this moment.
1:08:15Needing something to change. Your
1:08:18current positive situation being
1:08:20contingent on an adjustment
1:08:22on getting something from the outside
1:08:24world.
1:08:28Ironically,
1:08:30I think most people if you were to ask
1:08:31them when they were happiest for a
1:08:34sustained period of time, not for a
1:08:35brief moment, because pleasure can
1:08:37override happiness and create kind of
1:08:38this illusion of happiness.
1:08:40But if you ask people when they were
1:08:41happy for a sustained period of time,
1:08:43they were probably doing some variation
1:08:45of nothing.
1:08:49That's interesting because in the chase
1:08:51is this sort of lack, this contingency.
1:08:54That's right. But then you get bored. If
1:08:57you just sit around all the time, you
1:08:58get bored. So you want adventure, you
1:08:59want surprise. Like there's a funny
1:09:02thought experiment of the bliss machine,
1:09:04right? Which is suppose I could drill a
1:09:06hole in your head and put electrode in.
1:09:08And they did this with monkeys and I can
1:09:11put a wire in there and I can stimulate
1:09:13just the right part of your brain and I
1:09:14can put you in bliss and you'll just be
1:09:16in bliss. Would you would you want that?
1:09:19Would that be nice?
1:09:20For how long?
1:09:22Do it and I'll tell you.
1:09:23Right. So most people will say, "Well, I
1:09:25don't want that. I want meaning. I don't
1:09:27want just bliss. I want meaning." And
1:09:29you're like, "Okay, well, I'll put an
1:09:30electrode in there and I'll give you
1:09:32meaning. How about that?" And if you
1:09:35kind of run this thought experiment long
1:09:36enough, I think most people realize
1:09:38actually what I want is I want surprise.
1:09:40I want and
1:09:41I want the world to surprise me and I
1:09:43want to wrestle with it in ways that are
1:09:45somewhat predictable but somewhat not.
1:09:47And you kind of end up back where you
1:09:48started.
1:09:49So I I don't know if necessarily
1:09:52for some people Pure happiness is the
1:09:54ultimate goal. They want to, you know,
1:09:56just be blissfully happy wherever they
1:09:58are, whenever they are. But I think
1:10:01other people, most people would say,
1:10:03well, I'm here in this world. I'm here
1:10:05in this life. I don't understand it or
1:10:07why, but I want to be I want to be
1:10:10engaged. I want to be surprised. I want
1:10:12to do things. I want to accomplish
1:10:14things. I want to want things and then
1:10:16get them. Right? That's kind of the
1:10:17whole game that we're all playing here.
1:10:19Surprises are really interesting. the
1:10:21sort of unpredictability. I think total
1:10:24bro science here, but I'm pretty sure
1:10:25that that's kind of how dopamine works.
1:10:27That things are a bit better than you
1:10:28expected. That within that it means that
1:10:32if you for the perennial insecure
1:10:35overachievers that uh cloy for control
1:10:38that really want to be able to the
1:10:40schedule is perfectly done and we know
1:10:41the itinerary, we know where we're going
1:10:42to be at this time. you're in some ways
1:10:45I guess reducing down the capacity for
1:10:48surprise because everything has become
1:10:51uh very contrived prescribed done in
1:10:53advance laid out your ability to be
1:10:56surprised actually diminishes. Yeah. If
1:10:58if nothing worked out the way you
1:11:00expected, if it was all serendipity and
1:11:03you didn't want that, you would just be
1:11:05a ball of anxiety. On the other hand, if
1:11:07everything worked out as you expected
1:11:09and wanted, you'd be so bored you might
1:11:11as well be dead. So there's some, you
1:11:14know, the the river of life kind of
1:11:16flows between these two banks and enjoy
1:11:20it.
1:11:21You say thinking about yourself is the
1:11:22source of all unhappiness, but
1:11:24presumably you need to work on yourself
1:11:26and your weaknesses as well. So some
1:11:29degree of reflection is important. And
1:11:32if thinking about yourself is a source
1:11:34of unhappiness, is this a price that you
1:11:35need to pay? I need to sort of reflect
1:11:36inward. I'm going to have to diminish
1:11:38this level of happiness for a little
1:11:39while and then I can use this new level.
1:11:42I've got my brown belt on and I can go
1:11:44out into the world as a brown belt.
1:11:45What I'm specifically referring to that
1:11:47is if if you're thinking about your
1:11:50personality and your ego and the
1:11:51character of you and uh you're obsessing
1:11:54over that. That's where a lot of
1:11:56depression and unhappiness sort of
1:11:57lingers and and gets cultivated.
1:12:00Uh so uh thinking about woe is me, this
1:12:05happened to me. that happened to me. I
1:12:07have this personality. I have this
1:12:08issue. I deserve this. I didn't get
1:12:10that. That's you're just strengthening a
1:12:14little beast in there that is
1:12:15insatiable. And that's where I think a
1:12:18lot of unhappiness comes from.
1:12:19What's the beast?
1:12:20It's the ego. But that word is so
1:12:22overused that I kind of hate to use the
1:12:24word. Um, but it's like a it's a
1:12:26recurrent collection of thoughts that
1:12:28are very self-obsessed and will never be
1:12:30satisfied.
1:12:31Very concretized as well. So, they're
1:12:33not malleable, not particularly
1:12:34flexible. So you're just adding to them
1:12:35by thinking about them all the time.
1:12:36You're creating narratives and stories
1:12:38and identities. Um but that's different
1:12:41from solving personal problems. So if
1:12:43you encounter something, you learn from
1:12:45something, you're reflecting upon the
1:12:47learning, then you can reflect upon it,
1:12:49absorb it, and then just move on. But
1:12:51sitting there saying, "I'm Chris. I'm
1:12:52Nal. I deserve this. This happened to
1:12:54me. That person wronged me. This is who
1:12:56I am. This shouldn't have happened. I
1:12:58need to go get revenge on this or I need
1:13:00to fix that or change this." I mean that
1:13:02I think is where a lot of mental illness
1:13:05is, you know, comes from.
1:13:07So it depends if you are thinking about
1:13:10something to solve a problem and get it
1:13:12off your chest and get it off your mind.
1:13:14If it leaves your mind clearer at the
1:13:16end of it, then I think it was
1:13:19worthwhile. If it leaves your mind
1:13:20busier at the end of it, then you're
1:13:22probably going the wrong direction.
1:13:23Is this a a justification for
1:13:28detachment? uh cultivated ignorance uh
1:13:32distraction.
1:13:32Detachment is not a goal. Detachment is
1:13:34a byproduct. It's it's just a byproduct
1:13:36of just realizing you know what matters
1:13:38and what doesn't. Uh and and just for
1:13:41one moment on the self thing, I think
1:13:45everybody craves thinking about
1:13:47something more than themselves. If you
1:13:49want to be, you know, happy to some
1:13:51extent, you have to forget about your
1:13:52personal problems. And one way to do
1:13:54that is take on other problems, bigger
1:13:56problems. Uh and that could be a
1:13:58mission, that could be s that could be
1:14:00spirituality, that could be kids, um it
1:14:03could be caring about the planet,
1:14:04although I think people take that a
1:14:05little far, you know, and then they get
1:14:07kind of oppressive and and tyrannical in
1:14:10support of abstract concepts. But so
1:14:12these can be taken too far. Just like
1:14:13religion for example, just like
1:14:15anything in excess,
1:14:16anything in excess, right? Um but
1:14:18generally the less you think about
1:14:20yourself, the more you can think about a
1:14:22mission or about God or about a child or
1:14:25something like that. I remember Vinnie
1:14:27Himmath uh the founder of Loom said uh I
1:14:31am rich and I have no idea to do what to
1:14:32do with my life and you replied God kids
1:14:34on mission pick at least one that's
1:14:36right preferably all three.
1:14:40It's very liberating.
1:14:42Um yeah thinking I think overthinking
1:14:45about yourself is probably the it's it
1:14:48may not be the cause of depression but
1:14:50it certainly doesn't help rumination.
1:14:53Yeah. I
1:14:55I kind of had a self-induced Stockholm
1:14:58syndrome from this sort of a thing
1:15:00because I like to think about stuff and
1:15:02you provide you with an endless number
1:15:05of things to think about. So, you're
1:15:07kind of Yeah, you have this um you're
1:15:09the prisoner and the prison guard at the
1:15:10same time. And I had Abigail Shrier on
1:15:14the show. She was wrote this book called
1:15:16Bad Therapy, sort of pushing back
1:15:18against therapy culture for kids,
1:15:19specifically for kids. there was a blast
1:15:21radius that covered pretty much
1:15:22everything, including kind of CBT, I'm
1:15:25like, f like we're getting perilously
1:15:26close to some really evidence-based
1:15:27stuff here. But
1:15:30the more that I've thought about it and
1:15:31the more that I've looked at the
1:15:32evidence, there is like basically a
1:15:34direct correlation between how much you
1:15:36think about yourself and how miserable
1:15:37you are. Therapy is great if it lets you
1:15:40vent and it solves a thing and then x
1:15:42session later you're done. You're clear.
1:15:45But if you're just looping on the same
1:15:46thing forever, then it's actually the
1:15:48opposite.
1:15:48You're bathing in it. You're indulging
1:15:49in it. Yeah. Yeah.
1:15:52How have your become happy techniques
1:15:55developed over time?
1:15:58Yeah, I used to have a lot of them. Uh,
1:16:01now I kind of try not to have any
1:16:04because I think the techniques
1:16:06themselves are kind of a struggle. It's
1:16:08sort of like bidding for status implies
1:16:11you're low status. It reveals that
1:16:12you're low status. So, someone who's
1:16:14basically trying to show off uh comes
1:16:16across as low status. The same way
1:16:18someone who's trying to be happy is sort
1:16:20of saying I'm unhappy and creating that
1:16:22frame. So it's better just to not even
1:16:24think in terms of
1:16:25you position yourself as being in lack
1:16:27in order to attain.
1:16:28Yeah. I don't even think in terms of
1:16:30happiness unhappiness anymore. I just
1:16:32kind of just do my thing.
1:16:33Again, another question that's similar
1:16:35to a bunch of them. Do you think you
1:16:37could have got there had you have not
1:16:38done the procedural systematic sort of
1:16:42step by step by step this is what it is
1:16:43and then come out the other side?
1:16:45I don't think there are any formulas. I
1:16:46think it's unique to each person. It's
1:16:47like asking a successful person, how did
1:16:49you become successful? Each one of them
1:16:51will give you a different story. Uh you
1:16:53can't follow anyone else's path. And
1:16:54most of them are even probably telling
1:16:56you some narratized version of it that
1:16:58isn't quite true.
1:16:59I mean, that's something that I
1:17:01continually realize, especially as I get
1:17:03to spend more time around people that
1:17:04are successful and you hear um it's very
1:17:08important to prioritize work life
1:17:09balance, right? That's one of the most
1:17:10common things that people who have
1:17:12attained success say
1:17:13that's not my experience. But if you
1:17:15look at, you shouldn't be asking
1:17:17somebody who is successful what they do
1:17:20to continue their success now. You
1:17:21should be asking them what did they do
1:17:23to attain their success when they are
1:17:25where you were.
1:17:26And the people who are really
1:17:28extraordinarily successful didn't sit
1:17:31around watching success porn.
1:17:34They just went and did it. They just had
1:17:35they had such an overwhelming desire to
1:17:37be successful at the thing that they
1:17:40were doing that they just went and did
1:17:41that thing. They didn't have time to
1:17:43study and learn and listen and they just
1:17:46did it. It's the overwhelming desire
1:17:48that's the most important and the focus
1:17:50that comes from that.
1:17:52That tweet of yours that was uh people
1:17:55who are good at making wealth or people
1:17:56are good at attaining wealth don't need
1:17:57to teach anybody else how to do it.
1:17:59Yeah. You don't need mentors, you need
1:18:00action. That was one of them. Another
1:18:02one is you know the uh the people who
1:18:05actually know how to make money don't
1:18:07need to sell you a course on it. There
1:18:08it is.
1:18:09Um, yeah, there's lots of variations on
1:18:10it. But I if you don't, another one is
1:18:14if you don't lie awake at night thinking
1:18:15about it, you don't want it badly
1:18:16enough.
1:18:18Yeah, I think you I've heard you talk
1:18:21before about how um sort of unclosed
1:18:24loops problems that you're working on
1:18:26can cause you to be sleepless. And uh
1:18:28this
1:18:29I'm not a good sleeper.
1:18:30Tell me about that.
1:18:31Oh, I mean my eight sleep hates me. It's
1:18:33always telling me I failed at sleeping
1:18:35again. And Brian Johnson thinks I'm
1:18:37going to die early. He's probably right.
1:18:39But I
1:18:40How much do you reckon you sleep a
1:18:41night? You got any idea?
1:18:42Oh, it's so random. Some nights I'll
1:18:43sleep 8 hours. Some nights I'll sleep 4
1:18:45hours. But it's literally just random.
1:18:48Are you bothered about that? You trying
1:18:50to optimize? You go a sleep coach
1:18:51teaching you how to
1:18:52I don't fogg myself over things. Uh if I
1:18:55want to sleep, I'll sleep. If I don't
1:18:57want to sleep, I don't sleep. It's not a
1:18:59I don't think I'm doing anything right
1:19:00or wrong.
1:19:01You don't label it good night, bad
1:19:02night.
1:19:04No, I work out every day because I think
1:19:06it gives me more energy and I've gotten
1:19:08into a good habit with it. Maybe I'll do
1:19:10the same thing with sleep. Maybe I'll
1:19:11develop a good habit, but I'm not going
1:19:12to beat myself up over it. There'll come
1:19:14a point where it's important to me and
1:19:15when it's important to me, I'll just do
1:19:17it. You know, most of like, for example,
1:19:19you look at people with addictions,
1:19:20right? Overeating or smoking or
1:19:22whatever, they can
1:19:24kind of go through all the different
1:19:25methods, but it's half-hearted. And then
1:19:27one day they're like, "Oh [ __ ] I've got
1:19:29lung cancer. My dad has lung cancer."
1:19:30and they drop it immediately.
1:19:33So I think a lot a lot of change is more
1:19:35about desire and understanding than it
1:19:39is about uh forcing yourself or trying
1:19:41to domesticate yourself.
1:19:42It's efficiency again I guess you know
1:19:44aligning the thing that you want to do
1:19:46with the way that you feel about what it
1:19:47is that you want to do.
1:19:49Yeah. It's not it's not getting caught
1:19:51up in a in a half desire or a mimetic
1:19:54desire. It's really just
1:19:58being aware of what it is that you
1:20:00actually want at this point in time. And
1:20:02when you want something, then you will
1:20:04act on it with maximal capability.
1:20:07And that's the time to act on it. In the
1:20:09meantime, just doing it because other
1:20:11people tell you you should do it or
1:20:12society tells you you should do it or
1:20:14you feel slightly guilty about it. These
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1:21:22and modern wisdom a checkout. You
1:21:24mentioned anxiety before. Uh imagine how
1:21:27effective you'd be if you weren't
1:21:28anxious all the time is is one of yours
1:21:30and anxiety is the emotion dour of the
1:21:3421st century and lots of driven people
1:21:37very anxious very paranoid that's what's
1:21:39caused them to be affected. They pay so
1:21:41much attention detail oriented not
1:21:42letting things go staying up at night
1:21:44thinking about it. That's the paranoia
1:21:45coming in. What have you come to learn
1:21:48about anxiety and dealing with it?
1:21:50So, anxiety and stress are interesting.
1:21:52They're very related. Stress is when uh
1:21:54like if you look at an iron beam, when
1:21:56an iron beam is under stress, it's cuz
1:21:58it's being bent in two different
1:21:59directions at the same time. So, when
1:22:01your mind is under stress, it's because
1:22:03it has two conflicting desires at once.
1:22:06So, for example, you know, you you want
1:22:08to be liked, but you want to do
1:22:10something selfish, and you can't
1:22:11reconcile the two, and so you're under
1:22:13stress. uh you want to do something for
1:22:15somebody else, you want to do something
1:22:16for yourself, right? These aream you you
1:22:19don't want to go to work but you want to
1:22:20make money so you're under stress right
1:22:22so you have two conflicting desires and
1:22:25I think one of the ways to get through
1:22:26stress is to acknowledge that oh I
1:22:29actually have two conflicting desires
1:22:31and either I need to resolve it I need
1:22:33to pick one and then be okay losing the
1:22:35other or I will decide later but at
1:22:38least just being aware of why you're
1:22:40stress can help alleviate a lot of
1:22:41stress and then anxiety I think is sort
1:22:44of this pervasive unidentifiable able
1:22:47stress where you're just kind of
1:22:48stressed out all the time and you're not
1:22:50even sure why and you can't even
1:22:52identify the underlying problem. I think
1:22:54the reason for that is because you you
1:22:55have so many uh unresolved problems,
1:22:58unresolved stress points that have piled
1:23:00up in your life that you can no longer
1:23:02identify what the problems are and
1:23:04there's this mountain of garbage in your
1:23:07mind and it's a little bit of it poking
1:23:08out the top like an iceberg and that's
1:23:11anxiety. But underneath there's a lot of
1:23:13unresolved things. And so you just need
1:23:15to kind of go through very carefully
1:23:17every time you're anxious. Like, okay,
1:23:19why am I anxious this time? I don't know
1:23:21why. Oh, well, let me sit here and just
1:23:23think about it. Let me let me write down
1:23:24what the possible causes could be. Let
1:23:26me meditate on it. Let me journal. Let
1:23:28me talk to a therapist. Let me talk to
1:23:29my friends. Let me just kind of see like
1:23:31when does that stress go away? If you
1:23:33can kind of identify and unravel and
1:23:36resolve these issues, then I think that
1:23:38helps get rid of anxiety. uh a lot of
1:23:41the anxiety is piled up because we move
1:23:42through life too quickly, not observing
1:23:44our own reactions to things. We don't
1:23:46resolve them. So, this goes counter to
1:23:48what I was saying earlier about not
1:23:49reflecting too much on things, but you
1:23:51reflect on the problems to observe them
1:23:53and solve them. You don't reflect on
1:23:54them to feel better about yourself,
1:23:56to indulge them.
1:23:56Well, if if if you're doing it to just
1:23:58feel better about yourself, that could
1:24:01be strengthening your personality and
1:24:02your ego and could be creating a more
1:24:04fragile personality. Um, you know, one
1:24:07one big anxiety resolver for me is just
1:24:10ruminating on death. I think that's a
1:24:12good one. You're going to die. It's all
1:24:14going to zero. You cannot take anything
1:24:15with you. And I know this is trit. And I
1:24:17know the the we don't spend enough time
1:24:19thinking about the big questions. We
1:24:21kind of give up on them when we're very,
1:24:23very young. You know, a little child
1:24:24might ask the big questions like, why
1:24:26are we here? What's the meaning of life?
1:24:28What is this all about? You know, is
1:24:29there Santa Claus? Is there God? But
1:24:31then as adults, we're taught not to
1:24:32think about these things or we've given
1:24:34up on them. But I think the big
1:24:36questions are the big questions for good
1:24:37reasons. And uh if you can keep the idea
1:24:41in front of you at all times that you're
1:24:43going to die and that everything goes
1:24:46literally to zero.
1:24:49What's there to stress about?
1:24:50Yeah. For better or worse, life is very
1:24:52short. How should people deal with its
1:24:55briefness?
1:24:57Enjoy it.
1:24:59Make the best of it. You know, it's it's
1:25:01even briefer than that. Each moment just
1:25:03disappears. it's gone. There's only a
1:25:05present moment and it's gone instantly.
1:25:07So if you're not if you're not there for
1:25:09it, if you're stressed out or you're
1:25:11anxious or you're thinking about
1:25:12something else, you missed it. So you're
1:25:15any moment when you're not in that
1:25:17moment, you are dead to that moment.
1:25:19You might as well be dead because your
1:25:21mind is off doing something else or you
1:25:23know living in some imagined reality
1:25:26that is just a very poor substitute for
1:25:28the actual reality. So one of my recent
1:25:31realizations was what is wasted time?
1:25:35What is a what is a waste of time? So I
1:25:37don't like to waste time but what is
1:25:38wasted time? And everything is wasted
1:25:42time in a sense because nothing matters
1:25:44in the ultimate.
1:25:45Uh but in each moment the thing matters.
1:25:49In each moment it's the only thing that
1:25:51matters. Actually the what's happening
1:25:52in front of you is literally has all the
1:25:54meaning in the world. And so what
1:25:57matters is just being present for the
1:25:59thing. So if you're doing something that
1:26:01you want to do and you're fully there
1:26:03for it, then it's not wasted time. If
1:26:05you don't want to do it and your mind is
1:26:07running away from it and you're reacting
1:26:09against it and you're wishing you were
1:26:11somewhere else and you're thinking about
1:26:12some other thing or you're anticipating
1:26:14some future thing or regretting some
1:26:16past thing or being fearful of
1:26:17something, then that's wasted time.
1:26:20That's time that's being wasted when
1:26:21you're not actually present for the
1:26:22reality in front of you. So my
1:26:24definition of wasted time, yes I do want
1:26:26some material things in life and I you
1:26:28know there there are things that have
1:26:30more value than others within this life
1:26:31but this life is very short and bounded.
1:26:34So the true wasted time is a time that
1:26:36you're not present for when you are not
1:26:38there for it. When you're not doing the
1:26:41thing you want to do to the best of your
1:26:43capability such that you're immersed in
1:26:44it. If you're not immersed in this
1:26:46moment then you're wasting your time.
1:26:48People get worried about dying and no
1:26:50longer being here, but they don't
1:26:51realize that so much of their life is
1:26:52spent not being here in any case.
1:26:54That's right. But and I think people
1:26:57crave being here for it. And and and
1:27:00when you're here for it, you're actually
1:27:02not thinking about yourself. You are
1:27:04more immersed in the thing, the the
1:27:06moment, the task at hand.
1:27:07We don't want peace of mind. We want
1:27:08peace for our mind.
1:27:09That's right. Yeah. You don't peace. The
1:27:11mind is what can eat you alive if you
1:27:13let it. And there's more to you than the
1:27:15mind.
1:27:16How so?
1:27:19Well, I mean the very
1:27:22I don't want to disassemble the body, so
1:27:24to speak, right? Because please go on.
1:27:26Yeah. At the end of the day, like
1:27:28everything arises within your
1:27:29consciousness, right? You you
1:27:31got nowhere else to experience it.
1:27:32Sorry.
1:27:33You've got nowhere else to experience.
1:27:34Nowhere else to experience it. And that
1:27:35consciousness is uh relatively static in
1:27:38the sense that it's been exactly the
1:27:39same from the moment you were born to
1:27:40the moment you die. And everything that
1:27:42you experience from your body from your
1:27:44mind to the world to to everything is
1:27:46within that consciousness. Uh and that
1:27:49thing that base layer of being and this
1:27:51is what the Buddhists will tell you is
1:27:53the real thing. Everything that comes
1:27:55and goes in the middle including your
1:27:57mind including your body is unreal. And
1:27:59trying to find stability in those
1:28:02transient things is is your castle that
1:28:04you're building on sand that's going to
1:28:06crumble.
1:28:07Life is going to play out the way it's
1:28:08going to play out. There will be some
1:28:10good and some bad. Most of it is
1:28:12actually just up to your interpretation.
1:28:14You're born, you have a set of sensory
1:28:15experiences, and then you die. How you
1:28:18choose to interpret those experiences is
1:28:19up to you. And different people
1:28:21interpret them in different ways. Yeah.
1:28:23The old line about two people walking
1:28:24down the street. They're having the
1:28:25exact same experience. One is h
1:28:27experience. One is happy, one is sad,
1:28:29right? It's a narrative in their heads.
1:28:30It's how they choose to interpret. Um,
1:28:32so I think when I said that, it was a
1:28:35long time ago. I was talking more about
1:28:36having positive interpretations and
1:28:38negative interpretations. But these
1:28:39days, I think it's better just not to
1:28:40have any interpretations and to just
1:28:43allow things to be.
1:28:45You're still going to have
1:28:46interpretations.
1:28:48You can't stop it. Uh and nor should you
1:28:50try. But even that having an
1:28:52interpretation is just a thing you can
1:28:53leave alone.
1:28:55Yeah. I really want to try and just dig
1:28:57in a little more to the best way to
1:29:00remind people that they should value
1:29:01their time. just how brief it is that
1:29:05the time that you spend ruminating,
1:29:07being distracted, fears of the past,
1:29:09regrets.
1:29:11Well,
1:29:16I don't want to tell anybody how to live
1:29:18their life. I would just say that to the
1:29:19extent that you want to improve your
1:29:21quality of life, the uh the easiest and
1:29:25best way to do that is to observe your
1:29:28own mind and your own thoughts and and
1:29:30be a little not not necessarily critical
1:29:32but um be observant of yourself more
1:29:35objectively and then you'll kind of
1:29:37realize your own loops and patterns. It
1:29:39takes time. It's not it's not overnight.
1:29:41It's not instantaneous.
1:29:42So you mean letting go is not a one-time
1:29:43event.
1:29:44Yeah. And and there's letting go is not
1:29:47necessarily even the right answer. Like
1:29:48yes, if you're trying to be an
1:29:50enlightened being and you know you want
1:29:51to live like a god and everything's
1:29:52going to be perfect and be a Buddha,
1:29:54sure you can let go. But uh I think in
1:29:56practice it's actually quite hard to do.
1:29:57Um,
1:29:59I think I would say that it's uh you're
1:30:02going to find a lot of fulfillment out
1:30:04of life by just doing what you want to
1:30:06do and genuinely exploring what it is
1:30:09that you want rather than doing what
1:30:11other people expect you to do or society
1:30:13expects you to do or what you might just
1:30:14think should be done by default. Um, you
1:30:18know, I think most older successful
1:30:21people will tell you that their life was
1:30:23best when they lived it unapologetically
1:30:25on their own terms.
1:30:28Be selfish.
1:30:28Holistic selfishness. We can clip that
1:30:31little selfish. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Keep
1:30:34running back.
1:30:35Bad guy. Great.
1:30:36I I had this insight or a question, I
1:30:38guess. How much do you think that we
1:30:40should trust the voice in our heads?
1:30:42Because half of wisdom suggests to rely
1:30:45on your sort of bottomup intuition and
1:30:47then half of it has to be sort of top
1:30:50down rational as possible. How do you
1:30:52navigate the tension between head and
1:30:54gut in this way?
1:30:56I think the gut is what decides. Um the
1:31:00head is kind of what rationalizes it
1:31:01afterwards. The gut is the ultimate
1:31:03decision maker. If it doesn't and and
1:31:05what is the gut? The gut is refined
1:31:07judgment. It's taste aggregate
1:31:09aggregated and it could be aggregated
1:31:11through evolution uh and it's in your
1:31:13genes and your DNA or it could be
1:31:15aggregated through your experiences and
1:31:17what you've thought through. The mind is
1:31:19good at solving new problems and uh new
1:31:22problems in the external world that have
1:31:24defi defined edges you know beginnings
1:31:27and ends and and objectives.
1:31:30What the mind is actually really bad at
1:31:32is making hard decisions. So when you
1:31:34have a hard decision to make I find it's
1:31:36better to yes you ruminate on it. You
1:31:38think through all the pros and cons but
1:31:39then you sleep on it. You wait a couple
1:31:41of days. You wait until the gut answer
1:31:43appears with conviction and it feels
1:31:45right. And when you're younger, it takes
1:31:47longer because you just don't have as
1:31:49much experience. And when you're older,
1:31:51uh, it can happen much faster, which is
1:31:53why, you know,
1:31:54and you have less time to
1:31:55Yeah. And old people just more set in
1:31:56their ways as a consequence, right? They
1:31:58know what they want. They know what they
1:31:59don't want. Um, so it takes time to
1:32:02develop your gut instinct and judgment.
1:32:04But once you've developed them, don't
1:32:06trust anything else because you can't go
1:32:08against your gut. It'll bite you in the
1:32:09end. Uh usually in relationships that
1:32:12failed, you can look back and say, "Oh,
1:32:13actually, I knew it was going to fail
1:32:15because of this reason, but I kind of
1:32:16went ahead anyway because I wanted it to
1:32:18be this way, right? I wanted this person
1:32:20to be a different way than they are, or
1:32:22I wanted to get a different thing out of
1:32:23it than I thought I was going to than I
1:32:24knew I was going to get, but I just
1:32:26wanted it." So sometimes desire will
1:32:29override your judgment and then trap.
1:32:31Yeah. Wishful thinking. It traps you
1:32:33into a into a pathway that chews up
1:32:35time.
1:32:36What's that uh inside of yours? U we
1:32:39think we can't change ourselves but we
1:32:41can. We think we can change other people
1:32:42but we can't.
1:32:43Exactly. Uh I think to add to that you
1:32:45can't change other people. You can
1:32:46change your reaction to them. You can
1:32:48change yourself but other people only
1:32:51change through trauma or their own
1:32:53insight on their own schedule and never
1:32:55in a way that you like.
1:32:56Yeah. Alanderon says that uh people do
1:32:59sometimes change but rarely in
1:33:01relationships and never when they're
1:33:02told to.
1:33:03Absolutely. Yeah. The fastest way to
1:33:05kind of alienate somebody is to tell
1:33:06them to change. In fact, uh the Dale
1:33:08Carnegie School of Public Speaking, you
1:33:10know, the way that operates is, uh they
1:33:13get you up there and they realize that
1:33:14the number one problem with public
1:33:16speaking is uh that uh people are very
1:33:19self-conscious and so uh people who are
1:33:23practicing in the Dale Carnegie School
1:33:24of Public Speaking, I don't know, I
1:33:25never went through I heard this
1:33:26secondhand so I could be wrong but I
1:33:28like the story where they get up and
1:33:31they start speaking and the people in
1:33:32the audience are only allowed to
1:33:33compliment them genuine compliments not
1:33:35fake compliments on things that they did
1:33:37well but you're not allowed to criticize
1:33:38them on things that they did poorly and
1:33:40eventually they kind of get through it
1:33:42and they develop the self-confidence
1:33:44the same way uh there's like the
1:33:46Michelle Thomas school of language
1:33:48learning and on that one what they do is
1:33:50you listen to a teacher talking to a
1:33:52student they're not teaching you you're
1:33:53not expected to remember or memorize
1:33:55anything you just listen to a student
1:33:57stumbling over the language. It's a
1:33:58better way to learn because you yourself
1:34:00don't feel flustered. You're being
1:34:02tested, graded.
1:34:02Oh, so you're not in your own head as
1:34:04much.
1:34:04Correct. You're not in your own head and
1:34:05you're just you might even be laughing
1:34:07at the student or you might be agreeing
1:34:08with the teacher or vice versa or
1:34:10sympathizing with the student. But
1:34:12because you are a passive observer, you
1:34:14can be more objective about it and you
1:34:15aren't threatened or fearful and you can
1:34:16learn better. And coming back to the
1:34:19original point of you can't change
1:34:22people. If you do want to change
1:34:24someone's behavior, I I think the only
1:34:26effective way to do it is to compliment
1:34:28them when they do something you want.
1:34:30Not to positive.
1:34:31Yeah. Exactly. Not to insult them or be
1:34:32negative or critical when they do
1:34:34something you don't want. And we can't
1:34:35help it. It's obviously in our nature to
1:34:37criticize. And I do it as well, but it
1:34:39just reminds me that like when somebody
1:34:42does something praiseworthy, don't
1:34:43forget to praise them. Like definitely
1:34:44go out of your way and and it'll be
1:34:46genuine. It has to be genuine. It can't
1:34:47be a fake thing. uh this is not, you
1:34:50know, one of those uh just dropping
1:34:52compliments type thing eventually that
1:34:53people will see through that. They want
1:34:54authenticity, but just don't forget to
1:34:56praise people when they do something
1:34:58praiseworthy and you'll get more of that
1:34:59behavior. There was a a really famous
1:35:01thread on Reddit about five questions to
1:35:03ask yourself if you're uncertain about
1:35:04your relationship. One of the questions
1:35:06was, "Are you truly in love with your
1:35:08partner or just their potential or the
1:35:10idea of them?" And that's the, you know,
1:35:13they show such great promise. They they
1:35:15look at their look at their ability for
1:35:16for for change and growth. They they
1:35:19they they're on the right path.
1:35:21The partner matching thing is so hard.
1:35:23Uh you know, when people come and ask me
1:35:24like, "Oh, should I be with this
1:35:25person?" Like, "Well, if you're asking
1:35:27me, the answer is clearly no." Right?
1:35:30Because you wouldn't have to ask if you
1:35:32were with the right person or when you
1:35:34ask someone like why they're uh in a
1:35:36relationship with somebody and they
1:35:37start reading out his or her resume,
1:35:39right? That's also a bad sign.
1:35:41What do you mean? Oh, it's like, oh, we
1:35:43have so much in common. We like to golf
1:35:45together. It's like, it's not a basis
1:35:47for a relationship. Or, oh, you know,
1:35:49she's a ballerina or, you know, he went
1:35:52to Harvard or what have you. These are
1:35:53resume items. That's not who the person
1:35:55actually is.
1:35:55What's a better answer?
1:35:57I just love being with this person. I
1:35:59just trust them. I, you know, I I enjoy
1:36:01being around them. I I I love how
1:36:04capable he is. I love how kind kind she
1:36:06is. You know, I love her spirit. I love
1:36:08his energy.
1:36:10uh the more the the more materially and
1:36:14concretely definable the reasons are
1:36:15you're together the worse they are.
1:36:17Uh the ineffable is actually where the
1:36:18sort of true love lies
1:36:20because real love is a form of unity.
1:36:22It's a form of connection. It's
1:36:24connecting spirits. Oh you two, my
1:36:26consciousness meets your consciousness.
1:36:27It's a the the the underlying drive uh
1:36:31in love, in art, in uh science, in uh
1:36:36mysticism is the desire for unity. It's
1:36:39a desire for connection. As you know,
1:36:41Bourhees famously wrote, "In every
1:36:43human, there's a sense that something
1:36:45infinite has been lost." You know,
1:36:47there's a God-shaped hole in you you're
1:36:48trying to fill.
1:36:49And so, we're always trying to find that
1:36:52connection. Love is trying to find it in
1:36:54one other person and saying, "Okay,
1:36:56you're male, I'm female, or whatever."
1:36:58And you know, whatever your
1:36:59predilictions are, and now now we
1:37:00connect, now we form a hole uh connected
1:37:03hole. Or in mysticism it's like it's all
1:37:06about okay sit down meditate and you'll
1:37:08feel the whole. In science it's like oh
1:37:10uh you know atoms bouncing is mechanics
1:37:13but that generates heat. So
1:37:15thermodynamics and motion or kinetics
1:37:18are one combined theory that's a whole.
1:37:19Electricity and magnetism are one thing
1:37:21that's that's the whole creates that
1:37:23sense of awe. Uh in art it's like I feel
1:37:25an emotion I create a piece of art
1:37:27around it and then you see that painting
1:37:29or you see the cysteine chapel or you
1:37:31read the poem and you feel that emotion.
1:37:33So again, it's it's creating unity. It's
1:37:35creating connection. Uh and I think
1:37:37everybody craves that. And so when you
1:37:41really love somebody, it's because you
1:37:43you feel a sense of wholeness by being
1:37:46around them. Uh and that sense of
1:37:49wholeness probably doesn't have anything
1:37:50to do with what school they went to, you
1:37:52know, or what career they're in. Just
1:37:55sort of tying that into the life is
1:37:57short, stop [ __ ] about. Uh if you're
1:38:00faced with a difficult choice and you
1:38:01cannot decide, the answer is no. And the
1:38:03reason is modern society is full of
1:38:04options.
1:38:05Yeah.
1:38:06Knowing this rationally sounds sounds
1:38:09great, but having the courage to commit
1:38:13to it in reality, I think is a different
1:38:15task. And cutting your losses quickly in
1:38:17the big three, relationships, jobs, and
1:38:20locations is hard. What would you say to
1:38:24someone who may cerebrally be able to
1:38:26agree with you and say, "I understand."
1:38:29My cousin said this about me. He said
1:38:32that uh he said what I really he says
1:38:35what I've really noticed about you is
1:38:36your ability to walk away from
1:38:38situations that are just not great
1:38:42enough for you or not good enough for
1:38:44you. And I think that is a
1:38:45characteristic that I have. I will not
1:38:47accept second best outcomes in my life.
1:38:50Um
1:38:52ultimately you will end up wherever is
1:38:55acceptable to you. You will get out of
1:38:57life whatever is acceptable to you. Um,
1:38:59and there are certain things to me that
1:39:01are very very important where I will not
1:39:04settle for second best. But then there
1:39:06are a lot of other things I just don't
1:39:07care about because if I spend all my
1:39:09time caring about those things, I don't
1:39:10have the energy for the few things that
1:39:12matter. And uh, so in decision-m I have
1:39:15a few heristics for myself. Other people
1:39:17can use their own, but mine are if you
1:39:19can't decide, the answer is no. If
1:39:21you're offered an opportunity, if you
1:39:23have a new thing that you're saying yes
1:39:24or no to that is a change from where
1:39:26you're starting, the answer is by
1:39:28default always no. Secondly, uh if you
1:39:32have two decisions, if you have A or B
1:39:34and both seem like very equal, take the
1:39:37path that's more painful in the short
1:39:39term, the one that's going to be painful
1:39:41immediately because your brain is always
1:39:44trying to avoid pain. So any pain that
1:39:47is imminent, it is going to treat as
1:39:50much larger than it actually is.
1:39:53This is kind of like a decision-making
1:39:54equivalent of Talib surgeon.
1:39:57Uh tell surgeon where you want the
1:39:58surgeon that doesn't look as good
1:39:59because he's more likely to be a good
1:40:01surgeon. Yeah, it's similar in that
1:40:02appearances are deceiving because you're
1:40:04avoiding conflict. You're avoiding pain.
1:40:06So take the path is more painful in the
1:40:08short term because your brain is
1:40:09creating this illusion that the
1:40:10short-term pain is greater than the
1:40:12long-term pain. Because long-term yeah
1:40:14you you'll commit your future self to
1:40:15all kinds of long-term mana.
1:40:16Mñana
1:40:17exactly mñana. So take the more
1:40:20short-term painful one. And then finally
1:40:22the last one which I would credit Kapo
1:40:23Gupta with uh is that you want to take
1:40:27it take the choice that will leave you
1:40:29more equinimous in the long term. By
1:40:31quantumous he means like more at peace
1:40:33more mental peace in the long term. So
1:40:34whatever clears your mind more and will
1:40:36have you having less self-t talk in the
1:40:38future if you can model that out that is
1:40:40probably the better route to go. And
1:40:42then I would focus decision-m down on
1:40:44the three things that really matter
1:40:46because everything else is downstream of
1:40:48these these three decisions. Especially
1:40:50these are early life decisions. Later in
1:40:52life, you have different things to
1:40:53optimize for. But early in life, you're
1:40:55trying to figure out who you're with,
1:40:57what you're doing, and where you live.
1:40:59And I think on all three of those, you
1:41:01want to think you want to think pretty
1:41:02hard about it. And people do some of
1:41:04these unconsciously. You know, who
1:41:06you're with very often it's like, well,
1:41:08we were in a relationship. We stumbled
1:41:09along. It felt okay. It had been enough
1:41:11time, so we got married. Right? Not
1:41:14great reasons. Maybe not terrible
1:41:16reasons either. I mean, people who
1:41:18overthink these things sometimes don't
1:41:19get the right answer. But maybe here, if
1:41:21you're the kind of person that's not
1:41:22going to settle for second best, you
1:41:24iterate. You iterate on a closed time
1:41:26frame so you don't run out the clock.
1:41:27And then you decide um on what you do.
1:41:31You try a whole bunch of different
1:41:32things until you find the one that feels
1:41:34like play to you, looks like work to
1:41:36others. You can't lose at it.
1:41:38Um get some leverage. try to find some
1:41:40practical application of it and go into
1:41:42that. And then where you live, uh where
1:41:45you live is really important. I don't
1:41:46think people spend enough time on that
1:41:47one. I think people pick cities randomly
1:41:49based on where I went to school or where
1:41:51my family happened to be or where uh my
1:41:54friend was or I visited one weekend. I
1:41:56really liked it. You really want to
1:41:57think it through because where you live
1:41:59really constrains and defines your
1:42:01opportunities. Um it uh it it's going to
1:42:04determine your friend circle. It's going
1:42:05to determine your dating pool. It's
1:42:07going to determine your job
1:42:08opportunities. It's going to determine
1:42:09the food and air and water quality that
1:42:11you receive. Um, it's going to determine
1:42:13your proximity to your family, which
1:42:15might be important as you get older and
1:42:17have kids. So, very, very, very
1:42:19important decision. Weather, you know,
1:42:21quality of life. How much do you stay
1:42:22inside or outside? How long are you
1:42:24going to live based on that?
1:42:25And I think people choose that one
1:42:27probably more poorly than they put a lot
1:42:29less thought into that one than the
1:42:30other two.
1:42:31I in some ways, yeah, but also the
1:42:34You're so right. How many people fall
1:42:35backward into a relationship and before
1:42:37they know it, we're living together, we
1:42:39got a dog, we got a kid, we were married
1:42:41and you know,
1:42:41yeah. And then when you have kids,
1:42:42because then that's half of you and half
1:42:44of them running around, you're never
1:42:45going to separate yourself from that. So
1:42:47once you have a child with somebody,
1:42:48then the most important thing in the
1:42:50world to you is half that other person
1:42:52whether you like them or not.
1:42:54Mhm. Yeah. Uh Jeffrey Miller had a tweet
1:42:58a long time ago that I always think
1:42:59about and he said every parenting book
1:43:02in the world could be replaced with one
1:43:03book on behavioral genetics that I am a
1:43:06big believer in genetics. Yes, I do
1:43:08think a lot of behavior is downstream of
1:43:10genetics and I think we underplay that.
1:43:12We like to overplay nurture and
1:43:13underplay nurture for sorry underplay
1:43:16nature for societal reasons but nature
1:43:18is a big deal. Um the temperament of the
1:43:20person you marry is probably going to be
1:43:22reflected in your child by default.
1:43:23people want securely attached kid, pick
1:43:25a securely attached partner.
1:43:27Well, the secret to a happy relationship
1:43:28is two happy people, right? So, I would
1:43:30say if you want to be happy, then uh be
1:43:33with a happy person. Don't think you're
1:43:34going to be with someone who's unhappy
1:43:36and then make them happy down the road.
1:43:38Or if you're okay with them being
1:43:40unhappy, but there are other things you
1:43:41like about them, that's fine. But this
1:43:43goes back to the unhappiness with other
1:43:45things. Yes. And actually we we talked a
1:43:47little bit about how people do connect
1:43:50successfully, you know, on spirit and
1:43:52and those things, but that's maybe a
1:43:54little too abstract. If you want to get
1:43:56a little more practical, it could be
1:43:57based on values. And values are a set of
1:43:59things you won't compromise on. Values
1:44:01are the tough decisions of, oh, my
1:44:03parent got sick. Do they move in with us
1:44:05or do we put them in a in a nursing
1:44:06home? Uh, you know, the ch do we give
1:44:09the children money or do we not? uh you
1:44:12know do we um do we move across the
1:44:15country to be closer to our family or do
1:44:17we stay put where we are uh you know do
1:44:20we argue about politics do we care or do
1:44:22we not right the values are way more
1:44:24important than checklist items
1:44:27uh and uh I think if people were to
1:44:29align much more on their values they
1:44:31would have much more successful
1:44:32relationships
1:44:34the emotional pain of of fearing change
1:44:38I have this thing the job the location
1:44:40the partner I'm going to enter or not
1:44:42enter this thing. For the most part,
1:44:43it's leaving. I think we have this sort
1:44:45of loss aversion that that we really
1:44:47feel
1:44:47evolved loss aversion. It's just painful
1:44:49separating yourself in front of your
1:44:50friends. It's embarrassing. And
1:44:52how how would you advise people to uh
1:44:54get past themselves with the loss
1:44:55aversion? That fear of change. Oh my
1:44:57god, am I going to
1:44:58Yeah, it's the hardest thing in the
1:44:59world.
1:45:00Uh starting over. It's back to the zero
1:45:02to one thing. It's uh it's the mountain
1:45:04climbing thing. You're not going to find
1:45:05your path to the top of the mountain in
1:45:07the first go around. Sometimes you go up
1:45:08there, you get stuck, and you come back
1:45:10down. And the difference between all the
1:45:12successful people and the ones who are
1:45:13not is the ones who are successful want
1:45:15it so badly they're willing to go back
1:45:17and start over again and again whether
1:45:19in their career or in their
1:45:20relationships or in anything else.
1:45:22The more seriously you take yourself,
1:45:24the unhappier you're going to be. You
1:45:27learned how to take yourself less
1:45:28seriously. Well, fame doesn't help on
1:45:30that one because that is one of the
1:45:32traps of fame. People are always talking
1:45:34about you. they have a certain view of
1:45:36you and you start believing that and
1:45:38then you take yourself seriously and
1:45:39then that limits your own actions. You
1:45:41can't look like a fool anymore. Um you
1:45:43can't do new things anymore. You know,
1:45:45tomorrow I announce I'm a break dancer,
1:45:47right? That's going to be met with a lot
1:45:48of scorn and ridicule. But what if I
1:45:50want to be back? I'd back I'd back you
1:45:52if you want to make that.
1:45:53Yeah. The truth is if I want to be a
1:45:54break dancer, I'd be break dancing. But
1:45:56uh you know like I'm starting a new
1:45:58company 0ero to one again from scratch.
1:46:00Let's do it you know one more time. uh
1:46:03and not just going and raising a big VC
1:46:05fund or retiring or what have you. But
1:46:07that's because I want to build the
1:46:08product. I want to see it exist. So I
1:46:10think that you constantly just have to
1:46:11force yourself. You have to remind
1:46:12yourself. Um look, deep down you're
1:46:16still the same Chris you were when you
1:46:17were 9 years old. Deep down you're still
1:46:19a kid. Uh you know, you're still curious
1:46:21about the world. You still have a lot of
1:46:24the same predilictions and desires and
1:46:26wants. You've got a nice veneer on it.
1:46:28But one of the nice things when you have
1:46:30kids is you realize how much closer they
1:46:32are to you in personality and knowledge
1:46:34and knowhow. Like I look at my son who's
1:46:37uh you know he's eight and uh I just
1:46:41noticed like wow he's probably has 60 to
1:46:4580% of my knowledge and development
1:46:47wisdom and he has a lot more freedom and
1:46:49he has a lot more spontaneity. In some
1:46:51ways he's smarter and there's not a big
1:46:53gap here left to close. this kid's going
1:46:55to be, you know, done very soon. It
1:46:57caught up to me.
1:46:58And so to the extent that I think I know
1:47:00better or that I'm somewhere or that I'm
1:47:03someone, it's it's just an illusion.
1:47:04It's is it's just a belief.
1:47:06What's the lineage between that and
1:47:08taking yourself too seriously?
1:47:10I shouldn't take myself too seriously
1:47:12because there's nothing here to take
1:47:13that seriously. And if I take myself too
1:47:15seriously, then I'm going to get
1:47:17trapped. I'm going to get I'm going to
1:47:18circumscribe myself again into a limited
1:47:21set of behaviors and outcomes that keep
1:47:22me from being free, keep me from being
1:47:24spontaneous, keep me from being happy.
1:47:26Um,
1:47:28so it it just goes back to the, you
1:47:30know, don't think about yourself too
1:47:31much. There's a special type of pain in
1:47:35realizing that the advice that you need
1:47:37to hear right now is something that
1:47:41almost always you learned a long time
1:47:42ago and that you know you're basically
1:47:45sort of the same person you were as you
1:47:47were nine. You know a lot of the time
1:47:48people ask questions like um what advice
1:47:50do you wish that you would give yourself
1:47:5110 years ago? People ask themselves that
1:47:53question
1:47:55almost invariably the advice that you
1:47:57would give yourself 10 years ago is
1:47:58still the advice that you need to hear
1:47:59today.
1:47:59Absolutely. That's why I did that
1:48:01exercise of thinking back, you know, 10
1:48:03years, 20 years, 30 years ago. What
1:48:04advice would I give myself? For me, it's
1:48:06just be less emotional.
1:48:08Don't take don't take everything so
1:48:10seriously. Do the same things, but do
1:48:12them without all the emotional
1:48:14turbulence.
1:48:15And so, that's the advice I'm giving
1:48:17myself going forward.
1:48:18Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny how
1:48:20we need that distance to be able to be a
1:48:22little bit more objective, to have a
1:48:24little bit more perspective. And it's
1:48:25almost a little bit of a trick, right?
1:48:27Because typically when you do that you
1:48:28say what would you tell a friend that
1:48:29was going through this
1:48:30right
1:48:30and then you try and turn the advice to
1:48:33the friend around onto yourself but you
1:48:35always think well I'm not the friend you
1:48:37go okay you 10 years ago there's enough
1:48:40distance in that you go oh I actually am
1:48:41still that person there's just a single
1:48:43line between that
1:48:44and and related to this story is I think
1:48:47understanding is way more important than
1:48:50discipline now Jaco would have a fit but
1:48:53you know on physical things discipline
1:48:55is important if I want To build a good
1:48:57body, I got to work out on a regular
1:48:58basis. But on mental things, I think
1:49:01understanding is way more important.
1:49:03Once you see the truth of something, you
1:49:04cannot unsee it. All of us have had
1:49:07experiences where we've seen a behavior
1:49:09in a person and then it just changes
1:49:10what we think about that person. We no
1:49:12longer want to be friends with them or
1:49:13we deeply respect them if it was, you
1:49:15know, really good behavior that maybe
1:49:17was observed unintentionally. Um so when
1:49:21we when we really do see something
1:49:24clearly it changes our behavior
1:49:26immediately and that is far more
1:49:28efficient than trying to change your
1:49:31behavior through repetition.
1:49:33Could you give me an example?
1:49:35Um if you were let's say that you know
1:49:38you have a friend and then that person
1:49:40turns out to be a thief. You see that
1:49:42person stealing something you're done
1:49:44with them.
1:49:45uh if you are uh you know the the
1:49:48smoking lung cancer example is a good
1:49:50one right someone close to you or
1:49:52anytime someone close to you dies or you
1:49:54even hear about someone dying you hear
1:49:56about someone dying what's the first
1:49:57thing you do the first thing assuming
1:49:59that you weren't that close to them
1:50:00obviously you're close to them it's
1:50:01different but if you weren't that close
1:50:02to them but you know you hear about
1:50:03someone in your extended social dying
1:50:05you immediately start trying to
1:50:06different distinguish yourself from them
1:50:08you're like oh well how old was this
1:50:10person you know did they have were they
1:50:12a smoker you know did they have an issue
1:50:13do I have that issue, right? You
1:50:15immediately start comparing and what
1:50:17what you're what you're doing there is
1:50:18you're sort of just trying to see if
1:50:22there's an overlap here. But if you see
1:50:23the truth in something, if if you're
1:50:25like, "Oh my god, this person was the
1:50:26same age as me and they died." And
1:50:27that's starting to happen at my age
1:50:29where I'm starting to hear about, you
1:50:30know, extended circle people
1:50:33just reminds you time is really short.
1:50:34There's a truth there. There's a truth
1:50:35there that you cannot action.
1:50:38There's a truth there that you cannot
1:50:39unsee. Uh, you know, or for example, I
1:50:42think were you into bodybuilding or
1:50:44something back when? I don't know.
1:50:46Like bro lifting stuff of a skinny
1:50:49[ __ ] Yeah.
1:50:49Right. But there probably was a point
1:50:51where you were uh being really aggro in
1:50:54the gym and you injured yourself
1:50:56many times.
1:50:57Right. And each one of those was an deep
1:50:59understanding of don't go beyond this
1:51:01point, right? There was a truth there.
1:51:03So again, when you when you see these
1:51:05things in such a way that you can't
1:51:07unsee them, that changes your behavior
1:51:10instantly. And I would argue that that
1:51:12introspection to find those truths is
1:51:15actually very useful. Is that a
1:51:17justification for more experimentation,
1:51:19exploration,
1:51:21experience in life, sort of trying to
1:51:23find serendipity because all of these
1:51:24experiences are going to teach you a
1:51:27inescapable lesson.
1:51:29You're going to do what you're going to
1:51:30do. I mean, your level of exploration, I
1:51:32think, is sort of up to you. But life is
1:51:35always throwing truth back at you. Uh,
1:51:38it's about whether you choose to see it,
1:51:40whether you choose to acknowledge it.
1:51:42Uh, even if it's painful. Truth is often
1:51:44painful, right? If it wasn't, we'd all
1:51:46be seeing truth all the time. Reality is
1:51:47always reflecting truth. That's all it
1:51:49is.
1:51:49Why would you not have accessed it
1:51:50already?
1:51:51Exactly. Uh, you know, all the all the
1:51:53philosophy that's out there, for
1:51:54example, uh, it's almost trit. Like most
1:51:58people they look at philosophy like
1:52:00until they discover it for themselves
1:52:02and because because wisdom is the set of
1:52:04things that that cannot be transmitted.
1:52:06If they could be transmitted, you know,
1:52:08we'd read the same five philosophy books
1:52:09and we'd all be done. We'd all be wise.
1:52:11You have to learn it for yourself. It
1:52:13has to be rediscovered for yourself in
1:52:14your own context. You have to have
1:52:16specific experiences that then allow you
1:52:18to generalize and see the truth in those
1:52:20things in such a way that you're not
1:52:22going to unsee them. But each person is
1:52:24going to see them in a different way. I
1:52:26can tell you that Socrates story and
1:52:28it's not going to resonate until there's
1:52:30something that other people desire that
1:52:32you realize you yourself don't want. And
1:52:35the moment that happens, then you'll see
1:52:36the truth in the general statement.
1:52:38I want to just read you a twominute
1:52:40essay that I wrote uh a couple of weeks
1:52:42ago. So, it's called unteachable
1:52:44lessons.
1:52:44Okay.
1:52:45I've been thinking about a special
1:52:46category of lesson, one which you cannot
1:52:48discover without experiencing it
1:52:49firsthand. There is a certain subset of
1:52:51advice that for some reason we all
1:52:53refuse to learn through instruction.
1:52:55These are unteachable lessons. No matter
1:52:57how arduous or costly or effortful it is
1:52:59going to be for us to find out
1:53:00ourselves, we prefer to disregard the
1:53:03mountains of warnings from our elders,
1:53:04songs, literature, historical
1:53:06catastrophes, public scandals, and
1:53:08instead think some version of, "Yeah,
1:53:10that might be true for them, but not for
1:53:13me." We decide to learn the hard lessons
1:53:15the hard way over and over again.
1:53:18Unfortunately, they all seem to be the
1:53:19big things, too. It's never new insights
1:53:22about how to put up level shelves or
1:53:24charmingly introduce yourself at a
1:53:25cocktail party. Instead, we spend most
1:53:28of our lives learning firsthand the most
1:53:30important lessons that the previous
1:53:31generations already warned us about.
1:53:34Things like money won't make you happy.
1:53:36Fame won't fix your self worth. You
1:53:38don't love that pretty girl. She's just
1:53:40hot and difficult to get. Nothing is as
1:53:42important as you think it is when you're
1:53:44thinking about it. You will regret
1:53:45working too much. Worrying is not
1:53:47improving your performance. All your
1:53:49fears are a waste of time. You should
1:53:50see your parents more. You'll be fine
1:53:52after the breakup and will be grateful
1:53:54that you did it. It's perfectly okay to
1:53:56cut toxic people out of your life. And
1:53:58even reading this list back, I'm rolling
1:54:00my eyes at how [ __ ] trite it is.
1:54:03These are all basic [ __ ] obvious
1:54:05insights that everybody has heard
1:54:07before. But if they're so basic, why
1:54:10does everyone so reliably fall prey to
1:54:12them throughout our lives? And if
1:54:14they're so obvious, why do people who
1:54:15have recently become famous or wealthy
1:54:17or lost a parent or gone through a
1:54:19breakup start to proclaim these facts
1:54:21with the renewed grandio ceremony of
1:54:23someone who's just gone through
1:54:24religious revelation? It's also a very
1:54:27contentious list of points to say on the
1:54:29internet. If you interview a billionaire
1:54:30who says that all of his money didn't
1:54:32make him happy, or a movie star who said
1:54:34that her fame felt like a prison, the
1:54:35internet will tear them apart for being
1:54:37ungrateful and out of touch. So, not
1:54:39only do we refuse to learn these
1:54:41lessons, we even refuse to hear the
1:54:43message from those warning us about
1:54:44them. And even more than that, I think
1:54:47for every one of these, if I consider a
1:54:49bit deeper, I can recall a time,
1:54:51including right now, where I convinced
1:54:53myself that I am the exception to the
1:54:55rule. That my particular mental makeup
1:54:58or life situation or historical wounds
1:55:00or dreams for the future render me
1:55:02immune to these lessons being
1:55:04applicable. No, no, no. My inner
1:55:06landscape would be solved by skirting
1:55:08around the most well-known wisdom of the
1:55:10ages. No, no, no. I can thread this
1:55:13needle properly. Watch me dance through
1:55:15the minefield and avoid all of the trip
1:55:17wires that everyone else kicks. And then
1:55:19you kick one. And you share a knowing
1:55:22luck, the kind that can only occur
1:55:24between two people who have been hurt in
1:55:26the exact same way. And a voice in the
1:55:28back of your mind will say, "I told you
1:55:30so."
1:55:31That's unable.
1:55:33It's a good essay. I I think one of the
1:55:35reasons why these lessons are
1:55:36unteachable is because uh they're too
1:55:38broad. They have to be applied in
1:55:40context. A number of the ones that you
1:55:42laid out contradict each other. Like
1:55:43spend more time with your parents and
1:55:45you know don't work so hard but you know
1:55:47at the same time you do want to be
1:55:50successful, right? I think I think a lot
1:55:52of these lessons come from down on high
1:55:54from as you said like the famous movie
1:55:56star or the billionaire saying oh you
1:55:58don't need to be happy. It's like well
1:55:59okay then give it up [ __ ] right? Uh so
1:56:04in reality I think many of these
1:56:05contradict each other and they it's like
1:56:07if you went to school and you just
1:56:09studied philosophy for four years you
1:56:10would not know how to live life because
1:56:11you wouldn't know which philosophical
1:56:13doctrine to apply in which circumstance.
1:56:15Uh you have to actually live life go
1:56:18through all of the issues to figure out
1:56:20what it is that you want. What's the
1:56:22context in which some of these things
1:56:23apply and some of them don't. Um, yes,
1:56:25you want to visit your parents more
1:56:26often, but you don't want to live with
1:56:27your parents and you don't want to
1:56:29necessarily see them every day or every
1:56:30weekend depending on the parent. You
1:56:32might not get along with one of them.
1:56:33So, I think it is highly contextual. Um,
1:56:36that said, I I I would argue that once
1:56:39you figure it out for yourself, you can
1:56:41kind of carve these variations on these
1:56:44maxims that apply to you and uh then
1:56:47you'll have a specific experience that
1:56:49helps you remember it and actually
1:56:51execute on it. And you can also phrase
1:56:53it in a way where it's not trit anymore.
1:56:55So like
1:56:57Yeah. So so a lot of my maxims and notes
1:56:59to self are carved in a way that they're
1:57:01modernized. They're saying something
1:57:03true which might be trit if I didn't say
1:57:05it in a new way or in an interesting way
1:57:07that is more relevant to me today.
1:57:09There was a Nobel Prize winner who said
1:57:11something to the effect of uh everything
1:57:13worth saying may have been said before
1:57:15but given that nobody was listening it
1:57:17must be said again.
1:57:18Yeah. It has to be said again has to be
1:57:19recontextualized for the modern age.
1:57:21things do change, technology changes,
1:57:23things culture changes, people change.
1:57:25on that. I've heard you say uh you talk
1:57:28about the difference between seeming
1:57:29wise and being wise that uh you tried to
1:57:33appear smart as a kid uh by sort of
1:57:36wrote memorization masquerading as
1:57:38insight and wisdom and uh I I certainly
1:57:41feel that you know a lot of the show for
1:57:43me I think has been was and still is a
1:57:47redemption arc from this you know decade
1:57:50of my life where I completely suppressed
1:57:52any intellectual curiosity. It's like,
1:57:54okay, I'll be a professional party boy
1:57:55for 10 years, stand on the front door of
1:57:57a nightclub and give out VIP wristbands
1:57:59and have access to all of the pretty
1:58:00girls or, you know, the cool parties or
1:58:02whatever it might be.
1:58:02Seems like it worked out. Okay,
1:58:04it did in some ways. I mean,
1:58:06isn't that fun?
1:58:06It's it it was look, it was a good way
1:58:08to spend my 20ies, but to sort of
1:58:11come back above, put your head above
1:58:13water, two degrees, one of which was a
1:58:14masters, and then this like just shut
1:58:16down any of that learn. I mean, I I did
1:58:18that while I was at uni. While I was at
1:58:20uni, I was running the events. So, it's
1:58:22actually a decade and a half. And uh I
1:58:24think there was a big redemption arc
1:58:26within this show. And I I constantly
1:58:28have to kind of
1:58:30wipe the slime off me of this sense that
1:58:34I need to prove myself. And so much of
1:58:35it, this why it really resonates with
1:58:37me. Um when you're memorizing things
1:58:39that indicates that you don't understand
1:58:40them or that sort of yeah, wrote
1:58:43memorization and regurgitation
1:58:45masquerading as wisdom. Um because
1:58:48people use fluency as a proxy for
1:58:50truthfulness and insight. They use the
1:58:52complexity of your language and your
1:58:53communication.
1:58:54Yeah. There's a lot of jargon out there.
1:58:56I think it's it's it's the mark of a
1:58:58charlatan to explain a simple thing in a
1:59:01complex way. And so when you see people
1:59:03using very complicated language to
1:59:05explain simple things, they're either
1:59:07trying to impress you and offiscate or
1:59:09they don't understand it themselves.
1:59:10Well, there's an allure in that though.
1:59:11You know, this was one of the things I
1:59:13had to do when I went to therapy. It's
1:59:14kind of an interesting I think I've
1:59:15talked about this before. Um, I needed
1:59:18to turn off podcast Chris when I stepped
1:59:20into therapy because most of the time
1:59:23that I spend one-on-one in a deep
1:59:24conversation that's undistracted
1:59:26throughout the week. I trained myself
1:59:27over, you know, when I started doing it
1:59:29700 episodes now, 900, whatever. Uh, and
1:59:32I I knew what I could do to say to this
1:59:36therapist some, you know, to just sort
1:59:39of veer off a little and create some
1:59:41nice story, put a bow on it, push it
1:59:42across the table, and watch your eyes
1:59:44light up a little bit, like a little
1:59:45grin or a self-deprecating joke or
1:59:47whatever. I'm like, you're not here.
1:59:49You're you're performing. You're doing
1:59:51this. You're doing the Chris Williamson
1:59:53thing with the sort of jazz hands.
1:59:54So, I have my own version.
1:59:56Okay, tell me.
1:59:56Okay, so you have podcast Chris. I have
1:59:58podcast guest Naval.
2:00:00Precisely. So very often I'll uh think
2:00:03of something. I'll have some what I
2:00:04think is an insight and I want to tweet
2:00:07it or write it down, but in my mind I'm
2:00:10talking about it on a podcast. That's
2:00:12kind of how my mind registers it. And
2:00:14for a while I thought this was a bad
2:00:16thing and I tried to eradicate podcastal
2:00:18and then I just realized that's just how
2:00:20it comes out. So I might as well just be
2:00:22okay with it.
2:00:23Now do you know the reason I'm on this
2:00:24podcast? No. You know, I haven't done a
2:00:26proper formal interview straight up top
2:00:29whatever 10 20 podcasts in a long time
2:00:31since Rogan maybe.
2:00:32Probably since Rogan. Yep. Yeah, it went
2:00:34out at the top, right? That was a
2:00:35theory.
2:00:35Yeah. Well, it's still at the top.
2:00:37Yeah. Yeah, I know. And and then, you
2:00:38know, I've done some stuff with Tim Tim
2:00:40Ferrris, a good friend, but that's been
2:00:41more co-hosting. I haven't been a guest.
2:00:44Um, and then I did one or two random
2:00:45things where I just stumbled into a
2:00:47thing where I, you know, there was a
2:00:48reason, but it wasn't like this.
2:00:50And I reached out to you for this one,
2:00:52right? I have lots of people reaching
2:00:54out to me for podcasts. I do not answer
2:00:56them. I reached out to you.
2:00:57And the reason is a really funny one.
2:00:59It's because when I am playing podcast
2:01:02in the vault in my head, for some
2:01:03reason, you're on the other side. And I
2:01:06don't know why. I literally don't know
2:01:07why. It's not like I've even seen many
2:01:08of your podcasts. I think I've seen some
2:01:09snippets here and there, but for some
2:01:12reason, you were the guy in the podcast
2:01:15in podcast.
2:01:16And so, I was like, I might as well just
2:01:18do it. So, I reached out to you. I
2:01:19wonder if this will close that loop or
2:01:21further entrench it. I wonder if you've
2:01:23made it way worse now and you're just
2:01:24gonna have Well, first off, it was a
2:01:26dream and now it's reality plus a dream
2:01:27and I can't get away from him.
2:01:29Yeah, there are enough people that I
2:01:30turned down where I said I'm just not
2:01:31doing podcasts. I feel bad about that. I
2:01:33got to go back and do those podcasts.
2:01:35But I probably wear out my luck. I have
2:01:36nothing new to talk about. So, I don't
2:01:38know what I'm going to say.
2:01:38Well, I appreciate you you said on Rogan
2:01:41and this was something, you know, to
2:01:42kind of pay it back to you. Uh, I had a
2:01:45a fiveheaded Mount Rushmore of guests
2:01:48before I started this show and it was
2:01:50Jordan Peterson, Sam Harris, Alanderon
2:01:53from the School of Life, you and Rogan,
2:01:54and that was my uh hydra of Mount
2:01:58Rushmore.
2:01:58And uh I knew I think someone had asked
2:02:03you at some point, maybe it was a tweet
2:02:04or something after Rogan or maybe even
2:02:06said it on Rogan where you said, "Uh, I
2:02:07don't like to say the same thing twice,
2:02:09at least not in the same way."
2:02:10I don't like sequels. Yeah.
2:02:11Yeah. And I really really respected
2:02:14that. You know, that was 2019. You said
2:02:16it was uh eight or nine years ago. It
2:02:18wasn't as long ago as you.
2:02:19I have a terrible memory.
2:02:20Yeah. Yeah. Um
2:02:21you're right. 2019 right before co
2:02:23Yes. And uh I really appreciated that
2:02:26because there is something
2:02:29the content game you can continue to
2:02:32sort of I'm sure I'll have said many
2:02:33things today that the the audience will
2:02:35have already heard but uh
2:02:38caring enough about having novel
2:02:41insights or at least having a new
2:02:44perspective on similar insights to say
2:02:46oh well you know in the space of six
2:02:48years since you were on Joe a lot of
2:02:50these well I'm coming at them actually
2:02:52the first thing I said to you today like
2:02:54I'm not convinced that I actually fully
2:02:56agree with that thing that I used to
2:02:57say, which is cool, right? That's you
2:02:59showing that the um position that you
2:03:03put in the ground previously is not a
2:03:04tether. It's not you being held to it
2:03:07anymore.
2:03:07Well, I I think the reason why I wanted
2:03:09to be on this is because
2:03:12for some reason I have the impression
2:03:14that you engage in conversations and I
2:03:16like conversations. I don't like
2:03:18interviews. Mhm.
2:03:19This is why I was doing my last startup
2:03:20air chat, which was all about
2:03:22conversations.
2:03:23And conversations to me are more
2:03:25genuine. They're more authentic. There's
2:03:27a give and take. There's a back and
2:03:28forth. There's a genuine curiosity. It's
2:03:29not to say the other podcasters don't do
2:03:31it. They absolutely do do it. But for
2:03:32some reason in my mind, I had you as a
2:03:35guy that I would actually have a
2:03:36conversation with. And sure enough, you
2:03:38just read me your essay, which I don't
2:03:40think anybody else would really do,
2:03:41right? That implies there's a give and
2:03:43take. There's a genuine curiosity. And I
2:03:45think that's useful because then uh
2:03:47certain inexplicit knowledge that I had
2:03:50will be surfaced for myself. And I think
2:03:53that's helpful.
2:03:53Well, you're seeing, you know, to kind
2:03:55of break the fourth wall a bit, you're
2:03:56seeing very much of uh some of the
2:04:00gateway drug insights that you had that
2:04:04you just don't get to choose. I'm aware
2:04:06that you kind of have an anti-guru
2:04:08sentiment in you, like a very strong
2:04:10like don't listen to me. I don't know
2:04:11what I'm doing.
2:04:12Is a trap. No, guru is a trap. do not
2:04:14follow me, do not bow to me, do not do
2:04:15any of the other things to me. But, uh,
2:04:18if you see resonance in another person,
2:04:22and I think this is what we're all
2:04:23trying to find. You know, people can
2:04:25complain about the mountains of content
2:04:27creation that happens and and maybe
2:04:29rightly so. Um, but if you're able to
2:04:32find someone and you see in them a
2:04:35little bit of you, maybe not even much
2:04:37of you, but like, oh, that bit of them,
2:04:39their self-esteem or the way they look
2:04:41at relationships or what they want to
2:04:42do, the kind of life they want or the
2:04:43level of peace of mind that they want to
2:04:44have or whatever it might be.
2:04:46If you find in somebody else a little
2:04:48bit of that, it's kind of like what
2:04:50you're saying before, you can't you can
2:04:52no longer be unconvinced of that and it
2:04:56it steps in and becomes a part of you.
2:04:58And uh yeah, you're maybe seeing
2:04:59reflected back to you some you know this
2:05:02sort of percolated very meandering
2:05:05insight from however long ago that
2:05:07something's happened and maybe in you
2:05:09know 5 years time you'll be like you
2:05:11know that thing that you said about the
2:05:12lessons and then I don't know it's cool
2:05:15that's like synthesis right it's this
2:05:17sort of blending of the reason I spend a
2:05:19lot of time in San Francisco is because
2:05:21it's a gravitational attractor for the
2:05:23smartest people in the world and despite
2:05:25all the many problems the city had is
2:05:28mismanaged beyond belief. Um it does
2:05:31just seem to pull in the young smart
2:05:35creative people. Uh not just the ones
2:05:37who are building technology, but they're
2:05:39exploring every facet of life and
2:05:41they're weird and sometimes it's
2:05:42repulsive and it's bizarre, but you talk
2:05:45to these people and you just see a very
2:05:47intelligent person coming at life in a
2:05:49completely different way. um putting it
2:05:51through the cominatorics of human DNA
2:05:53which are uncountable and giving you a
2:05:57weird perspective that can twist your
2:05:59mind around. And to do that, you always
2:06:02have to be learning. You you have you
2:06:04can't be in a guru mentality. If I'm
2:06:06with somebody and they're listening to
2:06:09every word I say and hanging on it,
2:06:10that's not interesting for me. I'm not
2:06:11going to learn anything. Um, I want
2:06:14people who are intelligent, who will say
2:06:17something back that is a little
2:06:18different and I may not agree with it,
2:06:19but it's going to leave a mark. It's
2:06:21going to leave an impression
2:06:22and it's going to leave an impression to
2:06:23the extent that both that they are
2:06:25correct and that I choose to listen and
2:06:27I'll choose to listen if I don't view
2:06:29myself as higher status or smarter than
2:06:31them. The flip side of that is I'm not
2:06:34really impressed by high status people
2:06:36like I don't just because the case
2:06:39pretty much in fact uh most of my
2:06:41friends who have gone on to become very
2:06:44uh famous or successful the more famous
2:06:46successful they've been the less I spend
2:06:48time with them um partially because they
2:06:50get surrounded by an army of sickop fans
2:06:52which gets hard to break through uh and
2:06:54because I don't want anything from them
2:06:55and I don't and I don't like that I
2:06:57don't like these situations in which
2:06:59transactional relationships are
2:07:00implied that can be a though to people
2:07:02who are up that because the higher that
2:07:04they climb up that hierarchy, the fewer
2:07:05and fewer people don't want anything
2:07:07from them. So in that way you have an
2:07:09even better friend,
2:07:10right? But they get they get surrounded
2:07:12by people who do want things from them
2:07:13and are so good at pretending they don't
2:07:15that it's just not worth my time to try
2:07:17and break out from that group.
2:07:19Um so it does get lonely at the top so
2:07:21to speak. But it's also by choice
2:07:23because you know it's
2:07:25you can problem.
2:07:26Yeah, you can be your own best friend
2:07:28too. I am my own best friend actually.
2:07:30So, I really do enjoy spending time with
2:07:32myself.
2:07:33Yeah. The smartest people aren't
2:07:34interested in appearing smart and don't
2:07:36care what you think is.
2:07:38Yeah. I mean, a a lot of life is not
2:07:41giving a [ __ ] You know, a lot of the
2:07:42best things in life come out of that.
2:07:45Does this mean
2:07:48sort of talking about that wrote
2:07:49memorization masquerading as wisdom and
2:07:52insight thing which I think
2:07:55perhaps almost certainly uh podcasts
2:07:57like this will have contributed to. you
2:07:59know, you hear a an Alanderoton who's,
2:08:02you know, like a painter with words. Uh,
2:08:05very simple, very sort of unpretentious,
2:08:07but if you're intellectually curious,
2:08:09you see, you only see the production of
2:08:14his thoughts. You don't necessarily see
2:08:17the work that's gone into the thoughts
2:08:18behind. So, you confuse the presentation
2:08:21of them for the insight. Does that make
2:08:23sense?
2:08:24Of course. Yeah. A lot of my stuff is
2:08:25more polished. Like one of the funny
2:08:27things, yeah, one of the funny things
2:08:29that uh right before this uh podcast was
2:08:32I thought maybe I should go back and
2:08:34read my old tweets
2:08:35to sort of remember what I said and I
2:08:36can articulate it well. But then I
2:08:38realized that's just performance. I
2:08:39would just be memorizing my whole stuff
2:08:41to perform. I
2:08:42Well, that's an extra special level of
2:08:44hell that you've descended into. I wrote
2:08:46memorizing me to be more mely.
2:08:47Bingo. And and to live up to some
2:08:49expectation or some uh famous
2:08:52personality that I now have to become
2:08:53some straight jacket that I have to put
2:08:55on. I'm having to live up to in private
2:08:57the things that I prefer.
2:08:58That's right. So, of course, pretty
2:08:59quickly I saw through that, you know,
2:09:00it's nonsense and it also constrains my
2:09:02time and it's just work and it
2:09:03I think that's that's, you know, your
2:09:04meditation practice at work there, that
2:09:06mindfulness gap to be like, huh?
2:09:08Yeah, there's that thing again in
2:09:10Exactly. Exactly. So, it's not about
2:09:12changing your thoughts. It's not about
2:09:14fixing your thoughts. It's not about
2:09:15changing yourself. It's just about being
2:09:16observant of yourself so that you can
2:09:18then it'll automatically change.
2:09:20Whatever change needs to happen will
2:09:22happen. you trying to change yourself is
2:09:24very circular. Um the mind trying to
2:09:27change the mind, the mind doesn't like
2:09:28wrestling with itself. I don't I don't
2:09:30think it gets you anywhere.
2:09:31You've spent a lot of time either
2:09:33creating wealth or thinking about how to
2:09:35create wealth. What have you learned are
2:09:38the best places to spend wealth?
2:09:42To spend wealth.
2:09:43Yeah. Yeah. How you you spend this time
2:09:45creating this wealth
2:09:48accumulating? How does what are the best
2:09:50ways for you to put it back out?
2:09:53I actually think Elon had this one
2:09:55figured out, which is he plowed his own
2:09:56money back into his own businesses to go
2:09:58and do bigger and better things for
2:10:00humanity. Um, so what I would like to,
2:10:04you know, you could give it to
2:10:05nonprofits, but a lot of nonprofits are
2:10:07grifty or it's people who didn't earn it
2:10:08trying to spend it or they don't have
2:10:10tight feedback loops on having a good
2:10:11effect. So, one of the things I want to
2:10:14do as an aside is I want to create a
2:10:16little school for young physicists. But
2:10:17that's that's my nonprofit.
2:10:18A young physicist.
2:10:19Yeah, that that that's my nonprofit
2:10:21thing. But uh and I've been and I've
2:10:23actually uh underwritten uh
2:10:27media and some physics stuff. I don't
2:10:29like to talk about it. So I don't I
2:10:31don't talk about my whatever so-called
2:10:32philanthropy because I think that makes
2:10:34it less real. That makes it more status
2:10:35oriented.
2:10:36Makes it less philanthropic.
2:10:37Yeah. Exactly. And then people
2:10:38look at how charitable my charity is.
2:10:39And then people also come hunting for
2:10:41money. So there's all that disease. I
2:10:42don't believe in giving to schools. They
2:10:44have enough money. Ivy Leagues have
2:10:45enough money and they don't know how to
2:10:46spend it.
2:10:47So I think the best use of money is I
2:10:49think a good business creates a product
2:10:51for people that they voluntarily buy and
2:10:54they get value out of. So in that sense
2:10:57I think Steve Jobs and Elon and and uh
2:10:59entrepreneurs like that have created a
2:11:01lot of value for the world. So one of
2:11:03the things I can do is I can take my own
2:11:04money and I can invest it in myself to
2:11:07go and build the next great thing that I
2:11:09think needs to exist. And that's
2:11:11basically what I'm doing right now. I'm
2:11:12doing a new business. I'm self-unding
2:11:13it. Um, I'm plying a lot of money into
2:11:16it. I'm going to build something that I
2:11:17think is beautiful, that I want to see
2:11:18exist. Um, I really want to see exist.
2:11:21Have you spoken about this yet or is it
2:11:22still dark mode?
2:11:23It's so early. It's Yeah, maybe I'll
2:11:25show it to you in a few months. Uh,
2:11:27hopefully 6 months.
2:11:28Um, and uh, I'm excited about it and
2:11:31that's a good use of money.
2:11:33What about the worst places to spend
2:11:34wealth?
2:11:36What is the old line? If it flies,
2:11:38floats or fornicates. Well, very nice
2:11:41way to change the final F. Very
2:11:43impressive.
2:11:44That's the way I heard it. Can't take
2:11:46credit for that.
2:11:46I'm pretty sure it's Fox, but yeah.
2:11:48Yeah. Yeah. I think that was u
2:11:50Maybe it was uh Felix Dennis.
2:11:52Okay.
2:11:53Who who had that quote.
2:11:54Yeah. He said, "If a flies floats or
2:11:55fornicates rented I I think the last one
2:11:57was a little too
2:12:00it's wrong that he he didn't have a
2:12:02family, didn't have kids." So, you know,
2:12:03he missed the big one.
2:12:05Um
2:12:06but yeah, there there are lots of bad
2:12:08ways to spend money. Uh I I I believe in
2:12:10investment, you know, I don't believe in
2:12:12consumption. Uh yes, you can you're born
2:12:14with a short housing position. You close
2:12:15that out, you get yourself a nice house.
2:12:17Um get yourself some help to free up
2:12:19your time so you're not doing uh things
2:12:21that other people can do better. Um
2:12:24treat people well. You know, always
2:12:25overpay and expect the best.
2:12:27Uh pay them like they're the best and
2:12:29expect the best. Um, but overall I think
2:12:32a good use of money is to take risks and
2:12:35build things and do things that other
2:12:37people can't do. Align it with your own
2:12:40unique talent so you can keep delivering
2:12:41to the world. I'm not going to sit idle.
2:12:43Uh, I'm not going to retire. That's a
2:12:45that's a waste of whatever time I have
2:12:47left on this earth.
2:12:48Um, and if I'm doing something I enjoy,
2:12:50then I'm already in perpetual
2:12:52retirement. Um,
2:12:53because work is just a set of things you
2:12:55want to do that that that you have to do
2:12:57that you don't want to do. So if you
2:12:59want to do it, it's not work. Um, and so
2:13:01there are things that I want to do don't
2:13:03feel like work. I can put money behind
2:13:05them and I can use that to make
2:13:07instantiate them into reality. And I
2:13:09don't want to say make the world a
2:13:10better place cuz that's too trit, but
2:13:12it's more just create a product that I'm
2:13:14proud of that wouldn't exist otherwise
2:13:16that other people will get tremendous
2:13:18value.
2:13:18And it's been enabled through wealth
2:13:20because you're able to take a level of
2:13:21risk that you wouldn't have been able to
2:13:22otherwise.
2:13:23Exactly. Yeah. Wealth gives you freedom.
2:13:24It gives you freedom to explore more
2:13:26options. And in my case, it gives me
2:13:28freedom to start businesses without
2:13:29having to ask other people for
2:13:31permission or to warp my vision based on
2:13:35uh their desires to make a return or how
2:13:38they think money should be made.
2:13:40Is there anything that you'd add to the
2:13:42how to get rich thread? Is there
2:13:44anything where you thought [ __ ] like
2:13:45just one if I could go in and edit and
2:13:48add one more in or or
2:13:49No, there's like 10,000 things. I could
2:13:51talk about that topic forever to be
2:13:52honest. like that that that thread was
2:13:54so short and it was so limited and it
2:13:56was so like you know crafted in a sense
2:13:58although I wrote it very spontaneously
2:14:01um it left so much on the cutting room
2:14:03floor that I could just talk about that
2:14:04topic for days but
2:14:07it's all contextual right business is
2:14:09very very very contextual like you have
2:14:11to look at the particular business and
2:14:13understand what's being done and why
2:14:15it's being done and how it's being done
2:14:16and then you can tear it apart or you
2:14:18can re and then reassemble it properly
2:14:21um and I like to think that That is
2:14:22actually where I have specific knowledge
2:14:24and expertise. My specific knowledge,
2:14:25expertise is not in happiness, not in
2:14:27philosophy, not Yes, my life is very
2:14:29hacked to be very unique.
2:14:32But I don't think that's where my
2:14:33specific knowledge is. My specific
2:14:35knowledge is in being able to analyze a
2:14:38business, especially a technology
2:14:39business, and take it apart at the seams
2:14:41and predict in advance what is likely to
2:14:43work and what is not likely to work.
2:14:45clubhouse notwithstanding.
2:14:48Um because you're still going to be
2:14:51wrong most of the time. It's like
2:14:52playing the lottery, but you know one or
2:14:53two of the tickets numbers in advance.
2:14:55You only have to be right a few times or
2:14:56even just once to to get the big score.
2:14:59Um you know, Peter Thiel started PayPal,
2:15:01but he made all his money on Facebook,
2:15:03right? And now he's done more since
2:15:04then, obviously. But that was the big
2:15:06winner. And that's true in any power law
2:15:08distribution. Number one is going to
2:15:09return more than two through n put
2:15:11together. Two will return more than
2:15:12three through put together. you're
2:15:13operating in a highly leveraged
2:15:15intellectual domain. So the outcomes are
2:15:17going to be nonlinear. Um so I I know a
2:15:20lot about that topic, but it's highly
2:15:22contextual. It makes a lot more sense if
2:15:24there's a specific business in front of
2:15:25me, a specific entrepreneur, and I can
2:15:27take that apart and I can say, you know,
2:15:29so there are certain companies where
2:15:30I'll say, "Oh, this is not going to work
2:15:33because you, the entrepreneur, are doing
2:15:35this for the wrong reasons. You're
2:15:37you're doing A so you can get to B. Just
2:15:39go to B." Or, "You're doing this to make
2:15:40money." when really the person who's
2:15:42doing this because they love the product
2:15:44is going to beat you or you're raising
2:15:46money from the wrong people who are in
2:15:47it for the wrong reasons or your
2:15:49co-founder is not in it for the right
2:15:50reasons or you don't have the right kind
2:15:52of co-founder or your vesting schedule
2:15:54is wrong or you're starting the business
2:15:56in the wrong place or you're approaching
2:15:58it from this angle instead of that angle
2:16:00and and of course I'll be wrong too but
2:16:02I've just seen a lot of data I have my
2:16:04theories around it uh and that's where I
2:16:06feel very comfortable operating the
2:16:08problem is when I have to talk about how
2:16:10to create wealth and how to get rich is
2:16:12a clickbait title deliberately. But when
2:16:14I talk about how to create wealth,
2:16:16talking about it in the abstract is very
2:16:20difficult because then you just want to
2:16:21speak truth. You have to just say the
2:16:23timeless stuff. You have to be right in
2:16:25almost every context and so it really
2:16:27limits what you can say.
2:16:28The lack of specificity makes it Yeah.
2:16:30Correct. It's back to philosophy. But
2:16:31when I if I can get specific about it,
2:16:34you know, that's when that's when the
2:16:35real knowledge could be like a counselor
2:16:37for people.
2:16:37Yeah. part of the reason why I started
2:16:39doing podcasts and you know this is ego
2:16:41at play so I'll admit it freely when I
2:16:43was tweeting you know I kind of
2:16:46pioneered philosophy Twitter if you will
2:16:48or a certain kind of practical
2:16:49philosophy Twitter where in 140
2:16:51characters I would try to say something
2:16:53true in an interesting way that was
2:16:55insightful to me at the time but then
2:16:57that got copied there's thousands of us
2:16:59now right thousands of people spitting
2:17:00it out chat GPT trying to create these
2:17:02things all day long um although I like
2:17:05to say I like to think that my stuff is
2:17:06incompressible I'm saying it in the
2:17:08tightest way possible.
2:17:10Um, which is kind of a little failed
2:17:11poetry background. Um, but what I
2:17:14realized was if you truly have a deep
2:17:16understanding of something, then you can
2:17:18talk about it all day long. Then you can
2:17:20rederive everything you need from that
2:17:22understanding. No memorization required.
2:17:24You can get to it from first principles
2:17:26and every piece of what you know is is
2:17:29like a it's like a Lego block that just
2:17:31fits in and forms a steel frame. It's
2:17:33solid. It's locked in there. And so on a
2:17:35podcast, I can unload much more deeply
2:17:38about some of these topics. Um, so for
2:17:41example, we can talk about any business
2:17:42you like, but it has to be in context.
2:17:44It has to be real. It has to be an
2:17:47actual problem. Then we can solve it.
2:17:49I I just really love that heristic of if
2:17:52you're having to memorize something,
2:17:53it's because you don't understand it.
2:17:54You don't understand it. That's right.
2:17:55If you if you if you have to memorize
2:17:57something, it's because you don't
2:17:58understand it. And if you understand
2:17:59something, you don't have to memorize
2:18:00it.
2:18:03Yeah. I again, you know, just to sort of
2:18:06call out
2:18:08a lot of what I tried to do this
2:18:10redemption arc thing of if I sound
2:18:13smart, that's like being smart, right?
2:18:15You go, well, chat GPT has memorized the
2:18:18entire internet. Good luck competing
2:18:20with that.
2:18:21You're not going to beat it in
2:18:22memorization. You're not even going to
2:18:23beat a library at memorization. You're
2:18:24not going to beat any 10 books in
2:18:25memorization. So memorization is not the
2:18:29thing. Understand
2:18:29the value of memorization is going down
2:18:31by the day.
2:18:32It's already so low. Understanding is a
2:18:34thing. Being able to being able Judgment
2:18:36is the thing. Taste is a thing. Um, and
2:18:39understanding, judgment, taste, these
2:18:41come out of having real problems and
2:18:43then solving them and then finding the
2:18:45commonalities. What is philosophy?
2:18:47Everyone, you live long enough, you'll
2:18:48be a philosopher. Philosophy is just
2:18:50when you find the hidden generalizable
2:18:53truths among the specific experiences
2:18:55that you've had in life
2:18:56and then you know how to navigate future
2:18:58specific experiences based on some
2:18:59heristics and you create a philosophy
2:19:01around that. Any subject pursued deeply
2:19:03enough will eventually lead to
2:19:04philosophy. Mastery in anything,
2:19:06literally anything, will lead you to
2:19:08being a philosopher. You just have to
2:19:09stick with it long enough and generalize
2:19:11the truths back out. And these are
2:19:12universal truths. It's back to the unity
2:19:14and variety. You can find you can find
2:19:17unity in anything if you go deep enough.
2:19:19And that's why the trit stuff
2:19:21unfortunately sort of keeps coming back
2:19:23around. You're like, well, look, this is
2:19:25cliche for kind of a reason.
2:19:26It's cliche for reasons. Uh but, you
2:19:29know, sometimes you learn new things.
2:19:30Sometimes you do figure out new things
2:19:32too. Uh even even in philosophy for
2:19:34example science has advanced as science
2:19:36has advanced it's actually expanded our
2:19:39boundaries of philosophy. Um when we
2:19:42used to think that uh you know the earth
2:19:44was the center of the universe you would
2:19:46actually have a different philosophical
2:19:47outlook than when you think the universe
2:19:50is vast and we're infantestimally small.
2:19:53It will give you a different
2:19:53philosophical outlook. uh the same way
2:19:56if you think that uh the nature is
2:20:00driven by angels and demons and gods
2:20:02versus if there are laws of physics that
2:20:04are computable and understandable that
2:20:06will lead you to a different
2:20:08philosophical outlook.
2:20:09Uh if you think that knowledge is
2:20:11something that is passed down from above
2:20:13and through generations versus something
2:20:15that is created on the fly and then
2:20:17tested against reality that will lead
2:20:19you to a different philosophical
2:20:20outlook. If you think humans are created
2:20:22by God as opposed to humans evolved from
2:20:25some, you know, unicellular organism,
2:20:28yeah, it still doesn't solve the
2:20:29original problem. Who created that? But
2:20:30at least it takes you further down the
2:20:32down the road.
2:20:32Even sim theory is an attempt at
2:20:34reformulating philosophy based on what
2:20:36we know about computers, even though it
2:20:37kind of leads to a lot of the same
2:20:38conclusions as you know creator.
2:20:40But it it it is at least philosophy that
2:20:43is informed by technology and by
2:20:45science. So philosophy can also invol
2:20:47evolve moral philosophy evolves right uh
2:20:50there was a time when every culture
2:20:52practically that was a conquering
2:20:54culture practice slavery now almost all
2:20:56cultures abort slavery that's moral
2:20:58philosophy having evolved
2:21:00um you know there was even like this
2:21:03sounds too ludicrous to be true and I
2:21:05don't know if it fully is true but there
2:21:06were a a fairly large group of doctors
2:21:08based on studies who believed until the
2:21:101980s that babies couldn't feel pain and
2:21:13so even to this day I think circumcision
2:21:14is done without anesthesia and because
2:21:17under the theory that you know very
2:21:18young children babies don't feel pain
2:21:20and that's ludicrous and there was a
2:21:21study that came out in the 80s that said
2:21:22no no no they do feel pain it's like oh
2:21:24yeah of course right
2:21:25so people can be stuck in bad
2:21:27philosophical traps for a long period of
2:21:29time so even philosophy can make
2:21:30progress and uh as an example one of the
2:21:34realizations that I had and this is
2:21:36thanks to uh David Deutsch and my friend
2:21:38James Pierce and also thinking it
2:21:40through a little bit is that there are
2:21:42these timeless old questions that we run
2:21:44into where the answers seem like
2:21:47paradoxes. So we stop thinking about
2:21:48them. So an example is free will. Do you
2:21:50have free will? Or does anything matter?
2:21:52Is there a meaning to life? And
2:21:55there and and we get stuck in them
2:21:57because for example, is there a meaning
2:21:58to life? Like yes, life has a meaning
2:22:00because you're you're right here. You
2:22:01create your own meaning. This this
2:22:03moment has all the meaning you could
2:22:04imagine. It's all the meaning there is.
2:22:06On the other hand, you're going to die.
2:22:07It all goes to zero. Heat. Death. The
2:22:08universe has no meaning. Right? So which
2:22:10one is it? Well,
2:22:11the reason why it seems paradoxical is
2:22:13because you're asking the question of a
2:22:16human here and now at a certain scale
2:22:19and a certain time and then you're
2:22:21answering it from the viewpoint of the
2:22:22universe over infinite time. So, you
2:22:24pull the trick. You switch the level at
2:22:27which you're answering the question. And
2:22:29questions should be answered at the
2:22:30level at which they're asked. So, if you
2:22:33ask the question, is there meaning? You,
2:22:35Chris, are asking that question. Yes.
2:22:37Yes. To Chris, there is meaning. There's
2:22:39meaning right here. This is the meaning.
2:22:40you can interpret any meaning you want
2:22:41onto it. Um, don't ask the question as
2:22:44Chris and then answer it as God or as
2:22:46the universe. That's the trick that
2:22:47you're playing. That's why it seems
2:22:49paradoxical. The same way you can say,
2:22:51do I have free will? People debate free
2:22:52will all day long. This the question is
2:22:56answered at the wrong frame. So they ask
2:22:57the question is do I as an individual
2:22:59have free will? Hell yeah, I have free
2:23:01will. My mind body system can't predict
2:23:03what I'm going to do next. The universe
2:23:04is infinitely complex. I'm making a
2:23:06choice in my mind and I'm doing
2:23:07something. There's my free will. So
2:23:09answer at the level at which you were
2:23:10asked. Of course I have free will
2:23:11because I feel like I have free will and
2:23:13I treat you like you have free will and
2:23:14you treat me like I have free will. We
2:23:16have free will. The problem then is you
2:23:18start trying to answer the question as
2:23:19if you're the universe. You're like well
2:23:21on the universal scale big bang particle
2:23:23collisions. No one makes any choices.
2:23:25You know how could you be any different
2:23:26than the what the universe wants you to
2:23:27be and it's all one block universe. So
2:23:29you don't have free will.
2:23:30Don't answer the question at the level
2:23:32at which it wasn't asked. So if God
2:23:34asked the question is there free will?
2:23:36No there is no free will. the universe
2:23:38asks a question, there is no free will.
2:23:39But if an individual asks a question
2:23:41right now, then yes, there is free will.
2:23:43So a lot of these paradoxes resolve
2:23:45themselves, philosophical paradoxes that
2:23:47people have been struggling with since
2:23:48the beginning of time when you just
2:23:50realize there you're you're answering
2:23:51them at a scale and time different than
2:23:53they were asked.
2:23:54Speaking of updating beliefs, is there
2:23:56anything that you've changed your mind
2:23:57around recently?
2:24:00Very recently. I mean, all the time. Uh,
2:24:02but are you talking about like
2:24:03philosophical existential things or like
2:24:05technological things? Yeah,
2:24:06philosophical existential things or
2:24:08anything that comes to mind. If there's
2:24:09anything that's front of mind where you
2:24:10go, ah, yeah, that's a pretty big OS
2:24:12update.
2:24:12Yeah, I'm less lazy fair than I used to
2:24:14be on a societal level. I think that
2:24:16culture and religion are good
2:24:17cooperating systems for humans. And so
2:24:20if you want to operate in a high trust
2:24:21society, you need to have sets of rules
2:24:23that people need to follow and obey so
2:24:24they get along even if they're, you
2:24:26know, one sizefits-all doesn't work for
2:24:27everybody.
2:24:27Moved up a little bit from libertarian.
2:24:30Yeah. I think pure libertarians get out
2:24:32competed and die, right? They get
2:24:34overrun because they're every man for
2:24:36himself.
2:24:36They can't coordinate.
2:24:37They can't coordinate. Exactly. Right.
2:24:39Um so the coordination problems, right?
2:24:42Culture exists to solve fundamental
2:24:44coordination problems. Religion solves
2:24:45coordination problems. Ethnicity solves
2:24:48coordination problems historically.
2:24:50Um and when you uh break down those
2:24:52coordination systems too fast and don't
2:24:54replace them with anything else, you get
2:24:55societal breakdown. So you can have very
2:24:57malfunctioning societies. you know, go
2:24:59to Japan versus go to any western city
2:25:01and you can see the difference being a a
2:25:03culture that's working and a culture
2:25:04that's not.
2:25:05Um, so I I think that that's like a a
2:25:09broader set of things that I've changed
2:25:11my mind on
2:25:12uh a fair bit. I used to be much more
2:25:13lazy fair on that stuff, let's put it
2:25:15that way.
2:25:16Mhm.
2:25:16Um, what else? I mean, on child raising,
2:25:18I've gotten a lot looser. You know, I'm
2:25:20still not like completely less afair,
2:25:22but I'm much more realized like kids are
2:25:24going to be kids and you kind of let
2:25:25them do their thing.
2:25:26The debate with them. Is it a Talib that
2:25:28has the ascending levels of like
2:25:31anarchism versus conservatism? Is that
2:25:33his insight? Like at the local level,
2:25:35I'm this. It seems like you've gone the
2:25:36other way. It's like at the child level
2:25:38I'm an anarchist and at the societal
2:25:41level I'm a conservative. No, he he was
2:25:43quoting somebody else, some brothers, I
2:25:45forget which ones, but he was making the
2:25:46point eloquently as he often does. Uh
2:25:48that
2:25:50uh at you know at at at the family local
2:25:52level he's a communist. At the family
2:25:54level you're communist. uh at maybe the
2:25:57the extended family level you're a
2:25:59socialist at the local level, you know,
2:26:01you're kind of a uh a democrat and so on
2:26:04until at the federal level you're a
2:26:05libertarian, right? So,
2:26:06you've done it the other way. You're
2:26:07being a libertarian with the kids and
2:26:09you're being a religious conservative
2:26:11and societal.
2:26:12No, that's that's that's a that's a
2:26:13funny way of looking at it. I I don't
2:26:14know if the scale is that
2:26:17that simple. Um what else have I changed
2:26:19my mind on? I mean, I think a modern AI
2:26:22is really cool. I think it's but I think
2:26:23these are natural language computers. Um
2:26:26they're starting to show evidence of
2:26:28kind of uh reasoning at some levels but
2:26:31I don't think they do creativity. I
2:26:33think modern AI
2:26:35one of so just on that one of my
2:26:36favorite takes is from Dwash Patel and
2:26:38he says um
2:26:40uh if you gave any human on the planet
2:26:440.0 0 0 0.1% of the consumption that a
2:26:49LLM has. Any LLM, they would have come
2:26:51up with thousands of new ideas,
2:26:54right?
2:26:54Give me one new idea, one fundamental
2:26:57new idea that's been generated.
2:26:58Yeah. Like I'm big into poetry. Every
2:27:00poem ever written by an LLM is garbage.
2:27:02I think even their fiction writing is
2:27:03terrible. Even the new GPT45, with all
2:27:05due respect to Sam and Crew, uh I I
2:27:07think they're terrible, terrible
2:27:08writers. I find them really bad at
2:27:10summarizing. They're really good at
2:27:11extrapolating, you know, paperwork. um
2:27:14they're very bad at actually distilling
2:27:15the essence of something and what's
2:27:17important. They don't have an opinions
2:27:18or a point of view. But they're still
2:27:20unbelievably powerful breakthroughs.
2:27:22They solve search. They solve natural
2:27:24language computing. They make English a
2:27:25programming language. They solve
2:27:27driving. They solve uh simple coding and
2:27:30backup coding. They solve translation.
2:27:32They solve transcription. Um they are a
2:27:34fundamental breakthrough in computing.
2:27:36It is a different way to program a
2:27:37computer. rather than you explicitly
2:27:39speak its language and write the code
2:27:41and then run the data through it. You
2:27:42just run enough data through it until it
2:27:44figures out how to write the program.
2:27:45That's huge. Um but are they are they
2:27:49AGI? Not yet. And I don't see a direct
2:27:52path from here to there. Um maybe we'll
2:27:54have to solve a few more problems before
2:27:56that happens. And I think ASI is a
2:27:58fantasy. I don't think there's any such
2:27:59thing as uh artificial super
2:28:01intelligence where it has some kind of
2:28:03intelligence that humans can't fathom.
2:28:05Okay. Uh yeah, it seems like I don't
2:28:08know if you're from the boss room camp
2:28:11or whatever in
2:28:12No, I'm not an AI doomer. I think that's
2:28:14such a flawed line of reasoning. But
2:28:15let's say that you know you came out of
2:28:17the less wrong.com like slate style
2:28:19codec world and
2:28:22there was this sort of lineage from
2:28:24computers and AI gets more powerful more
2:28:26powerful more powerful and then you end
2:28:27up AGI ASIS
2:28:29and it seems like LLMs have been this
2:28:32sort of orthogonal move from that which
2:28:35are you saying you don't believe they
2:28:37are a step on that it's kind of a little
2:28:39bit of a traditional branch
2:28:41I think Steven Wolf puts it better it's
2:28:42a different form of intelligence it's
2:28:44like if you see Jaguar in the jungle, it
2:28:46has a different form of intelligence in
2:28:47your like a plant has a form of
2:28:48intelligence how it can like
2:28:49photosynthesize and grow. It's a
2:28:51different form of intelligence. It's not
2:28:53and intelligence again like love or like
2:28:55happiness is this overloaded word that
2:28:57means many things to many people.
2:28:58But by my definition where you know the
2:29:01true test is you get what you want out
2:29:02of life. It doesn't even have a life. It
2:29:03doesn't even want anything. It's a
2:29:05different thing.
2:29:06Um I do think it's unbelievably useful.
2:29:09I'm glad that it exists. You don't see
2:29:11it much yet in large scale production
2:29:14systems replacing humans because this
2:29:15tendency to hallucinate. So you can't
2:29:17put it into anything mission critical
2:29:18confidently wrong one time out of 10.
2:29:20Correct. And it doesn't even know when
2:29:21it's wrong. Uh and maybe they'll get
2:29:23that one out of 10 down to one out of
2:29:24100. But you'll kind of always want
2:29:26human oversight for critical critical
2:29:28things.
2:29:29I I always feel so bitter. It's I'm
2:29:32petty sometimes. My my less economist
2:29:34version of me is petty and I always want
2:29:36to like teach it a lesson if it gets
2:29:39something wrong. like how the [ __ ] like
2:29:41no you were so confident I'm treating it
2:29:43but I'm anthropomorizing anthropology
2:29:45it doesn't have a point of view and they
2:29:46are going to get a lot better and they
2:29:48might get to the point where the error
2:29:49rates are so low that you can put them
2:29:51into certain bounded problems like
2:29:52self-driving I think will be solved
2:29:54completely uh because it's a bounded
2:29:56problem cars don't you know go like
2:29:58off-road and drive through houses and
2:29:59stuff like that right so because and and
2:30:02same way like certain kinds of coding
2:30:04the creative side of coding I think
2:30:05doesn't go away I think if anything
2:30:07programmers get even more leverage and
2:30:09more powerful And rather than computing
2:30:11replacing programmers, programmers use
2:30:13AI to replace everybody else.
2:30:14On Tesla versus Whimo, would you bet on
2:30:17software or hardware for self-driving?
2:30:19Yeah. So the I think Tesla's in the
2:30:21stronger, longer term position, but it's
2:30:24hard to argue with what's working right
2:30:25now. And Whimo is working right now. So
2:30:27I would not underestimate them because
2:30:28there's a learning curve that you go
2:30:30through when you actually deploy
2:30:31something. And Whimo is way ahead in
2:30:33that regard. But Tesla's camera only
2:30:35approach if it works uh is a superior.
2:30:38It's much more scalable and Tesla knows
2:30:40how to print cars, right? They can just
2:30:41mass manufacture cars. But I think I
2:30:43think they'll both be around. They'll
2:30:45both be fine. It's everybody else who
2:30:47doesn't have a self-driving vehicle
2:30:48that's screwed.
2:30:50You mentioned uh kids there and you had
2:30:53a tweet that said, "I'm not convinced
2:30:55that declining fertility needs to be
2:30:56proactively fought."
2:30:59I forgot that one.
2:31:00You're going to have to I'm I dug deep.
2:31:01Um why? Well, I mean, think back like
2:31:04what was it 30 years ago, 20 years ago?
2:31:06Everybody was saying overpopulation of
2:31:07the earth is going to be a problem.
2:31:08Malthusian ending, we're going to have
2:31:10too many people. And now all of a sudden
2:31:11we're going to have too few people. So
2:31:13part of it is just the doomerism meme is
2:31:15always alive and well, right? Or it just
2:31:16gets repackaged.
2:31:17Yeah. We're running out of oil. We have
2:31:18too much oil, right? You know, it's like
2:31:20the world is cooling, the world is
2:31:22warming. Like there's always something
2:31:23to scream about. The world is ending. Uh
2:31:25there's no progress in technology. AI is
2:31:27going to blow up the world, right? So
2:31:29people tend to overdo in both
2:31:30directions. Now, what is the actual
2:31:32fertility problem, right? Well, people
2:31:34are having less kids. Are they having
2:31:36less kids because there's a disease? Was
2:31:37there a virus? Did they lose their
2:31:39fertility? The microplastics in the
2:31:40testicles, right? No, it's people are
2:31:43having less kids because they're
2:31:44choosing to have less kids, right? Women
2:31:46have gotten emancipation, independence
2:31:48in the workforce, and they're making
2:31:49more money. Um, people don't need kids
2:31:51as insurance policies. They have less
2:31:53kids. Maybe they're living hedonistic
2:31:54lives. God bless them, right? They want
2:31:56to have more fun. They want to have less
2:31:57kids. I don't see the act of choosing to
2:31:59have less kids as a problem. Okay, so
2:32:01let's move one level up. Uh it's because
2:32:04of retirees. It's because a large
2:32:06percentage of the population is
2:32:08essentially retiring at the guaranteed
2:32:10age of 65 or 70 thanks social security.
2:32:13And so they need other people to pay for
2:32:14it. They need more workers in the
2:32:16workforce. And if the workforce is
2:32:17shrinking, then you have a small number
2:32:19of people Exactly. who are supporting a
2:32:21large number of retirees. And in
2:32:22democracies, you can't take pensions
2:32:24away. The voters vote you out. So they
2:32:26slowly strangle the economy. So what do
2:32:28you do? Then you have a bunch of
2:32:29immigration and then the whole culture
2:32:30changes. You end up in a low trust
2:32:32society and people start fighting over
2:32:34limited resources and how do you control
2:32:35which immigrants come in and how do you
2:32:37make sure that they're good taxpayers
2:32:38after they're in and so on.
2:32:39So you end up with in in kind of this
2:32:41trap where the low fertility rate is
2:32:44upstream of the downstream problems that
2:32:46are cultural and societal.
2:32:49But I'm not sure that you're going to
2:32:51solve that by making people have more
2:32:53kids. How are you going to meme them
2:32:54into having more kids? And I'm not even
2:32:56sure it's necessarily a problem because
2:32:57keep in mind, you have more resources
2:32:59now. You have less of a burden. Now,
2:33:01there's there's a flip side where every
2:33:03kid is a lottery ticket and an
2:33:04invention. So, there's some benefit to
2:33:06having more kids, but you can't you
2:33:08can't force it.
2:33:09I think it'll work itself out, right?
2:33:12The Scott Adams has this great law which
2:33:14calls the Adams law of slowmoving
2:33:16disasters. When disasters are very slowm
2:33:19moving like peak oil or global warming
2:33:22or population collapse and everyone can
2:33:25kind of see them coming economics and
2:33:28society as a force solve them because
2:33:30enough individual people has incentives
2:33:32to go solve them.
2:33:33So I don't know exactly how it gets
2:33:35solved but I think it could get solved
2:33:37in various ways. Uh, one example could
2:33:40be um, you know, maybe people retire
2:33:43later. Maybe AI and automation and
2:33:46robots take care of the older people.
2:33:48Maybe we figure out how to have
2:33:49immigrants while still keeping a high
2:33:51trust society. We kind of put more rules
2:33:53around immigration that protect some of
2:33:55the high trust benefits. Maybe we
2:33:57outsource more things. Maybe we just,
2:33:58you know, have more land and housing to
2:34:01go around. Believe me, if we were having
2:34:02too many kids, everybody complain about
2:34:04how there's no housing and there's no
2:34:05land, right? So they'll always find
2:34:07something to care about. So, I just
2:34:08don't view this as like a thing that any
2:34:11individual or government action is going
2:34:13to solve. I think economics and
2:34:14incentives over time will solve it. And
2:34:16I'm not even convinced it's like that
2:34:18big of a problem.
2:34:19Is there anything that you do think is a
2:34:22it may be selfcorrecting too, which is
2:34:23that if there are too few kids in
2:34:25society and the returns to having kids
2:34:27literally might just go up. It might
2:34:28just be easier to have
2:34:29the incentive to now have a child
2:34:30because there's so few around, they're
2:34:32going to get the best job. They're going
2:34:33to have opportunity resources. It's like
2:34:35everyone wants to everyone's
2:34:36I suppose if you could come at it from a
2:34:38pain side which is you look at all of
2:34:39the other people around who don't have
2:34:41kids. Let's say that um pensions
2:34:44completely drop off and the only way
2:34:45that old people are able to survive is
2:34:47if their children pay them some sort of
2:34:48stipend like reverse you know send send
2:34:50money back up the generations. You go
2:34:52okay well that's a pretty [ __ ] good
2:34:53incentive.
2:34:54That's a good incentive. I also think
2:34:55that people have been me'd into thinking
2:34:57that uh kids make your life worse and
2:34:59that's a that's a pretty pretty bad
2:35:01what's your experience been? Kids make
2:35:03your life better in every possible way.
2:35:04If you want to if you want an automatic
2:35:06built-in meaning to life, have kids. Uh,
2:35:08and I think there are these bad psych
2:35:11studies, like most psych studies,
2:35:12unfortunately, that say that people are
2:35:14unhappy when they have kids. Yeah, it's
2:35:16because you're catching in the middle of
2:35:17changing a diaper and you're saying
2:35:18like, "Are you glad you had kids or
2:35:20not?" Or or they don't even say that.
2:35:21They say, "Are you happy or not?" And
2:35:22they say, "No, I'm not happy right now."
2:35:24But what they don't realize is that
2:35:25person has found something more
2:35:26important than being happy in the
2:35:28moment. They found meaning. And the
2:35:29meaning comes from kids. And if you ask
2:35:30parents, do you regret having kids? I
2:35:32think it would be 99 to1 against, you
2:35:34know, it would be, "No, I don't regret
2:35:36having kids. I love having kids. I'm so
2:35:38glad I had kids." It's it's incredibly
2:35:40rare to meet a parent that regretted
2:35:41having children.
2:35:42It's pretty good odds.
2:35:43It's it's extremely good odds. And I
2:35:45think so I think I think a lot of people
2:35:48get late into life and uh you know, then
2:35:51they can't admit that they didn't want
2:35:52kids that that that they should have had
2:35:53kids. It's kind of late in the game. Um,
2:35:56but you know, a lot of times you see
2:35:58everybody who has a pet, right? Uh, and
2:36:00they're pushing them around in a
2:36:02stroller, right? What is that? That's a
2:36:04sublimated desire for children.
2:36:05Yeah. Uh, Malcolm Collins says that uh,
2:36:08having a pet is to children is using
2:36:10porn is to sex. He basically thinks that
2:36:12it's sort of a surrogate.
2:36:14It It's definitely in that direction.
2:36:16And, you know,
2:36:18I like pets. I like animals. I don't but
2:36:20I don't like the idea of like neutering
2:36:22or spaying something and then keeping it
2:36:23as a prisoner in the house and having to
2:36:25train it. You know, it's just I don't
2:36:27want to be responsible for that.
2:36:28Given that you've been thinking more
2:36:30about child rearing kids, what do you
2:36:33hope that your kids learn from their
2:36:35childhood?
2:36:37They should just be happy and do what
2:36:38they want. I don't I don't I don't have
2:36:40particular goals in mind for them. I
2:36:42think that's a that's another route to
2:36:43unhappiness. Having
2:36:44That's different though, right? Than
2:36:45learn versus goals. It's not necessarily
2:36:47what do they want? What what do you want
2:36:48them to want out of life? Like what is
2:36:51it that you had that idea around your
2:36:55number one job as a parent is to provide
2:36:56unconditional love to your kids.
2:36:57Yeah, that's it.
2:36:58Right. So I can be loved or I am loved
2:37:01unconditionally. Is that one of the
2:37:02things?
2:37:02I want my kids to feel unconditionally
2:37:04loved and I want them to have high
2:37:05self-esteem.
2:37:07Mhm.
2:37:08As a consequence of that,
2:37:10but I don't get to choose any All I get
2:37:12to choose is my output. I can output
2:37:14love. I can't choose what they feel. I
2:37:16can't choose how they behave. I can't
2:37:18choose what they want. I can't choose
2:37:19what they turn out to be.
2:37:21And downstream from that, there should
2:37:23be freedom. There should be a degree of
2:37:24freedom that comes from the self-esteem
2:37:26that comes from the unconditionality.
2:37:28They should make their own mistakes and
2:37:29learn their own lessons and uh have
2:37:31their own desires and fulfill them as is
2:37:33appropriate. Uh I like any parent, I
2:37:36wouldn't want them to be hurt. I
2:37:38wouldn't want them to be unhappy. But I
2:37:39cannot control these things.
2:37:41Uh you replied to my friend Rob
2:37:43Henderson. He was talking about um how
2:37:46kids fall asleep more quickly when
2:37:47they're being carried and uh you said
2:37:49cry it out and co-sleeping is dangerous.
2:37:53What's IYI science? IY is Nim TB. He
2:37:57talk about intellectual yet idiot. These
2:37:59are people who are overeducated and they
2:38:01deny like basic common sense.
2:38:03Okay.
2:38:04Uh so there's a lot of that that goes on
2:38:05in child rearing uh thanks to really bad
2:38:08studies uh and and bad public medical
2:38:11directives. So, for example, you know,
2:38:13uh a few uh a few parents you maybe
2:38:16they're drunk or they're high or they're
2:38:18just other issues and you know, they
2:38:20roll over their kid when they're
2:38:21sleeping, the kid suffocates or they
2:38:23neglect their kid and then
2:38:24is that co-sleeping having them in the
2:38:26bed.
2:38:26Yeah. Exactly. Or or there, you know,
2:38:28the the modern proclamation. And so,
2:38:30because of that, they say, "Well, don't
2:38:31co-sleep with your kids." Well, the kids
2:38:33in every society through all of human
2:38:35history co-slept with their parents.
2:38:37Where else do you think they were
2:38:37sleeping? They weren't houses in
2:38:39multiple rooms. Yeah. Exactly. Put in
2:38:41the other tent. We'll put It's just
2:38:43nonsense. Co-sleeping has been around
2:38:45since the dawn of time. So has uh
2:38:48feeding kids cow milk when or goat milk
2:38:50when breast milk is runs out or is not
2:38:52available. Um yet we're told formula,
2:38:54you know, made with soy and and and corn
2:38:57syrup, which was invented recently, is
2:39:00somehow better than uh cow milk. And cow
2:39:02milk can be dangerous for your kids and
2:39:03co-sleeping is dangerous for your kids
2:39:04and cry it out is the right answer. All
2:39:06of that is nonsense. I mean, it's very
2:39:08clear that um we raise children
2:39:10throughout human history without uh
2:39:12these interventions. And and to me, the
2:39:15idea that like you're going to let your
2:39:16kid cry it out, I get why that's done
2:39:18for practical reasons so that you know
2:39:20you can get some sleep and you can go to
2:39:22work in the morning, but the reality is
2:39:23when you let the kid cry it out, you're
2:39:25letting the kid ball until it finally
2:39:27gives up. I mean, the kid left by itself
2:39:29to cry it out in the wild. It's going to
2:39:31get it's going to get eaten, right? It's
2:39:33going to get eaten by a tiger. Um, so
2:39:35this kid is starting off on the wrong
2:39:37foundation. The the one I mentioned
2:39:39earlier about the idea that babies don't
2:39:41feel pain. Like that's ludicrous, right?
2:39:43Um,
2:39:44I've never heard that before. That's
2:39:45such a wild idea.
2:39:46Yeah, I'm not saying that's 100% true. I
2:39:48read it on
2:39:49the child in the cheek quite hard. And
2:39:50that's an academy. I read it on Twitter
2:39:52and I did one level confirmation on it,
2:39:54but it's so ludicrous that I should
2:39:56probably do two or three level
2:39:57confirmations on it before I talk about
2:39:58it.
2:39:59Um, but there are definitely some people
2:40:01who believe that there enough that it
2:40:03was a thing. um in certain circles for a
2:40:05while. But I think we just go through
2:40:07these, you know, the these IYI beliefs,
2:40:10these intellectual beliefs come from
2:40:12people who uh take a little bit of
2:40:15knowledge and extrapolate it too far.
2:40:16They think we know more than we know due
2:40:19to recent scientific studies and these
2:40:22are junk science. These are low power
2:40:24studies on uh you know on very certain
2:40:26contexts that then get over applied.
2:40:28Behavioral psych is very guilty of this
2:40:30but it's true across a lot of science.
2:40:32Um, so even with science, you have to be
2:40:34skeptical. You have to look very
2:40:36carefully at, you know, does it apply in
2:40:37the right context or not? Is it come
2:40:39from good sources? Did they run enough
2:40:40high-powered studies widely accepted?
2:40:42And there are a whole bunch of things
2:40:43you're just not supposed to talk about.
2:40:44You're not supposed to say like you
2:40:45don't say like you you can you can't say
2:40:47anything negative about vaccines because
2:40:49god forbid what if they don't get the
2:40:50polio vaccine, right? And that's part of
2:40:52the reason why the recent vaccine debate
2:40:53because we've taken our worship for
2:40:55vaccines too far because we don't want
2:40:57people to not take non-essential
2:40:59vaccines. So it gets overdone. So the
2:41:00same way there's this whole SIDS thing,
2:41:02sudden infant death syndrome, right?
2:41:04It's like no, there's kids don't
2:41:06suddenly mysteriously die. Like more
2:41:09likely there was neglect or there was a
2:41:10problem and then whoever was the
2:41:12caretaker doesn't want to admit to the
2:41:14problem or didn't recognize the problem,
2:41:16but kids don't just spontaneously die in
2:41:18the crib, right? Um so they talk about
2:41:20swaddling babies. You swaddle babies,
2:41:22you know, basically tie them up, mummify
2:41:24them. Uh so you constrict them so they
2:41:27die of SIDS where they roll over and
2:41:28they can't get back. I mean, it's just
2:41:30all this craziness around fundraising.
2:41:32It's a real minefield.
2:41:33It's a minefield. And and and you know,
2:41:35you have these scared parents or having
2:41:36a kid for the first time and they open a
2:41:38book and they start reading how to raise
2:41:39children when I would argue that your
2:41:41natural instincts on what to do with
2:41:43your child
2:41:44uh are actually pretty good. It It's
2:41:46funny when uh my wife and I had our
2:41:48first baby. I remember, you know, at the
2:41:50hospital,
2:41:51sorry, the first one was natural birth
2:41:53um at the birthing center. We we went
2:41:55home. I was like, "There you go. That's
2:41:56it." And we're like, what do we do?
2:41:59Where's the instruction manual? You take
2:42:01them home
2:42:02and then you relax and you realize
2:42:03actually
2:42:05instincts are pretty good. You know, if
2:42:06the kid cries, check to see if they
2:42:08clean, feed them, all that. It's like
2:42:10your your basic instincts are actually
2:42:12very very good. And kids instincts are
2:42:14actually very very good. They know what
2:42:16they want and they want things for a
2:42:17reason
2:42:18and they can encourage you to give it to
2:42:19them.
2:42:20Yes. It's usually it children are not
2:42:24deficient adults who can't reason. Uh
2:42:27and to some extent that's true but
2:42:30mostly it's not true. Mostly they have
2:42:32very good reasons for what they want and
2:42:35you as a parent mostly have
2:42:37communication problems with them. They
2:42:39can't yet communicate to you. You can't
2:42:41communicate to them. They can't
2:42:42communicate to you. So early on with my
2:42:45kids, I tried to focus on teaching them,
2:42:47you know, basic explanatory theories as
2:42:50opposed to having them memorize things.
2:42:53That's just the most
2:42:55the most nol solution.
2:42:57I'll give you I'll give you a very
2:42:58simple example,
2:42:59right? Okay. So this is Twitter and this
2:43:01is this is the how to get rich without
2:43:03getting lucky thread. So the first one
2:43:05well a simple one is you know how does
2:43:08knowledge get created? If you follow the
2:43:09critical rationalism David Deutsch
2:43:11philosophy, then it's by guessing and
2:43:13then by testing your guesses. So
2:43:15whenever they ask me something like,
2:43:16well, why do you think that is? Well,
2:43:17how would we figure out if that's true?
2:43:19Right? So that's a basic game you can
2:43:20play
2:43:20involving them.
2:43:21Involving them. But another one is that
2:43:24a lot of the rules that you teach kids
2:43:26have to do with hygiene, right? You must
2:43:28brush your teeth, you know, cover your
2:43:30mouth when you cough. Um, you know,
2:43:32clean up after yourself. Don't touch
2:43:34that. Wash your hands after you do this.
2:43:36um don't eat food off the floor, right?
2:43:39But all of these are subsumed under the
2:43:41germ theory of disease, right? So if you
2:43:43instead go on YouTube and show them
2:43:45videos of germs or if you have them look
2:43:47under a microscope at anything, they're
2:43:49like, "Ah, they can infer what's going
2:43:51Yeah, there's creepy crawies everywhere
2:43:52and I got to watch out for them." Uh and
2:43:55then, you know, you can talk about how
2:43:57if you look at humans, like our real
2:43:59enemy are pathogens. I think a lot of
2:44:00aging and disease are actually
2:44:02downstream of our competition with
2:44:03pathogens over time. uh to a point that
2:44:06people still don't fully appreciate. Um
2:44:08there's a red queen hypothesis which is
2:44:10that we undergo sexual selection to mix
2:44:13up our genes. And so every 20 years,
2:44:15every generation, mix up your genes. But
2:44:17if you look at how bacteria and viruses
2:44:18mutate through just random mutations,
2:44:21their mixup rate on their genes and
2:44:24evolution rate is roughly the same as
2:44:26ours. Even though they go through
2:44:27thousands of generations those 20 years
2:44:28because they're not doing sexual
2:44:29selection, they're doing asexual
2:44:31replication, mutation, their their
2:44:34evolutionary rate is roughly equivalent
2:44:36to ours. So we're in a red queen race
2:44:37where we're both running at roughly the
2:44:39same speed using very different
2:44:40strategies.
2:44:42But a lot of how we're involved is
2:44:45around pathogens. Like our immune system
2:44:47is one of the most expensive things to
2:44:48run in the body is so much as about
2:44:50immune system optimization. That's about
2:44:51pathogens. junk DNA in bacteria and
2:44:54crisper was discovered because in
2:44:55bacteria their DNA is evolved to fight
2:44:59viruses and the way it does that is by
2:45:01taking viral DNA and snipping it up
2:45:03every time there's a viral attack and
2:45:04storing it in their own DNA so they have
2:45:05a copy so they can recognize it next
2:45:08time it attacks and you know and so on.
2:45:10Um a lot of the population structure of
2:45:13species uh determines how long their
2:45:16lifespans are. So very uh so if if in a
2:45:21given species there's a very high rate
2:45:23of infection then you'll have these
2:45:25older members of the population are
2:45:27carrying diseases that will then infect
2:45:29the young. So it's important for that
2:45:31species to get rid of the old faster. So
2:45:33the higher the disease rate in a given
2:45:35population, the less long live the
2:45:37entire population. So the older ones
2:45:38don't infect the younger ones. That's a
2:45:40hypothesis and I think it's true. It's
2:45:42an interesting hypothesis. um uh
2:45:44homeostasis within the human body, how
2:45:46we're always returning to a given level
2:45:48of things like that's a that's a
2:45:49fundamental part of our makeup, our
2:45:51temperature, pH, blood pressure, and so
2:45:52on under homeostasis. But if you if you
2:45:56engage in any kind of signaling like you
2:45:57take a peptide for example, that's a
2:45:58signaling molecule. You take a hormone
2:46:00externally, the body will counteract it.
2:46:02You take testosterone, the body will
2:46:03counteract will downregulate its own
2:46:05production very fast. Uh and the body
2:46:07releases its own hormones in pulses
2:46:10rather than steady state. Why is that?
2:46:11Well, that's because uh bacteria and
2:46:14viruses can infect your body and trick
2:46:16your body. They can take it over. Like
2:46:18toxoplasmosis does this, rabies does
2:46:20this. They take over macroscopic
2:46:21structure, structural bodies.
2:46:23And small bacteria and viruses would
2:46:25hack our bodies and literally take them
2:46:26over if we didn't have defense
2:46:28mechanisms. And one of those defense
2:46:30mechanisms is homeostasis. Anytime you
2:46:32see something getting out of whack, you
2:46:34immediately push back really hard on it
2:46:35because like, did I just get infected?
2:46:37Is something trying to take me over?
2:46:38It's also why hormones get released in
2:46:40pulses at night rather than in steady
2:46:43state low levels because uh enemy
2:46:45bacteria can release toxins or the same
2:46:49signaling molecules in small quantities
2:46:51but they can't pulse. They can't
2:46:52coordinate to pulse.
2:46:53So your body can coordinate to pulse as
2:46:55a macroscopic object but microscopic
2:46:57objects can't coordinate to create the
2:46:58same pulses.
2:46:59Oh that's cool.
2:47:00Yeah. So there's all I mean
2:47:01so you know that it's coming from you.
2:47:02Is that why?
2:47:03Correct. It's endogenous rather than
2:47:04exogenous.
2:47:05So I never knew that. And that's why we
2:47:07resist a lot of exogenous treatments. A
2:47:09lot of our medical treatments don't
2:47:10work. Um anyway, so this these are
2:47:14there's there's a bunch more I could go
2:47:15on, but I think that a lot of uh you
2:47:18know, you see this in cancers where uh a
2:47:20lot of uh bacteria show up like the
2:47:23Epstein bar virus shows up in a lot of
2:47:24cancers and um you know, now it seems
2:47:27like the gut microbiome influences so
2:47:29many things. Basically uh bacteria and
2:47:32viruses are at the top of the food chain
2:47:34compared to us. Like we are top of the
2:47:36well-known food chain, but bacteria and
2:47:38viruses eat us. Fungus eats us. So these
2:47:40microscopic predators are our natural
2:47:43predators. And so a lot of aging,
2:47:45societal structure, hygiene, religious
2:47:48strictctures against pork, you know,
2:47:51circumcision, all of these things. These
2:47:52are all designed to resist bacteria and
2:47:54viruses. So if you can teach children
2:47:56this philosophy at an early age, you
2:47:58shortcut all the debates.
2:48:00How effective have you been at teaching
2:48:01that philosophy to children?
2:48:03That one, I think I've been pretty
2:48:04effective. I've drilled that one at
2:48:05home. The one I haven't quite gotten
2:48:07around to yet is evolution. Like I'm
2:48:09starting to do little bits of that, you
2:48:10know, like we came from monkeys. What
2:48:12does that mean?
2:48:13Um, already got them thinking about some
2:48:15of the deeper questions. I did ask my,
2:48:17you know, young son like uh, you know,
2:48:20can nothing exist? I thought that was a
2:48:22fun question. So, I like to throw a fun
2:48:23question.
2:48:23How old is he now? Like four, three.
2:48:24No, no, he's he's eight.
2:48:26Oh, right. An 8-year-old and a
2:48:27six-year-old. So, I asked them both
2:48:28like, "Can nothing exist?" And they had
2:48:29pretty good answers, right? Um, another
2:48:32one we played with the other day was
2:48:34like, "What is the matrix?"
2:48:36Okay. Uh, you know, what is what is
2:48:38this? What is all this? Um, I just find
2:48:40it and it's entertaining. It's just fun
2:48:42to talk about, right? To talk about
2:48:43these questions with your kids. I'm not
2:48:44saying that one is a good way of child
2:48:46raising. It's not leading to any deeper
2:48:48learning other than maybe just have them
2:48:50start uh or continue to question the
2:48:53basic structure of reality and not move
2:48:55past it so quickly. also to take joy.
2:48:57You know what's the meta lesson that's
2:48:59being taught there? Dad
2:49:02dad spends time asking questions to
2:49:05which there are not necessarily an
2:49:06answer because there is something
2:49:08enjoyable in the process of learning and
2:49:09trying to decipher what's happening
2:49:11possibly. Also, dad tries not too hard
2:49:13to teach people things. I don't want to
2:49:15be I don't want to be didactic.
2:49:17He helps them to arrive at it.
2:49:18Yeah. Correct. Correct. Dad Dad is here
2:49:20to help you solve problems when you have
2:49:21problems and you constantly have
2:49:23problems. So if you come to dad, dad can
2:49:25help explain to you how he would solve
2:49:27the problem. But most of the time they
2:49:28don't want that. Most of the time they
2:49:29just want most of the time they just
2:49:30want me to solve the problem, right? So
2:49:32sometimes they have to play it dumb.
2:49:34It's like why is my Wi-Fi not working on
2:49:35my computer? I'm like I don't know. Did
2:49:36you click on that thing?
2:49:38Look, you've got like a rebellious
2:49:39sovereign child. Sovereign as they may
2:49:40be, but sometimes they still need the
2:49:43dad to step in.
2:49:44So in addition to feeling loved and
2:49:45having high self-esteem, I think the
2:49:47most important trait that would be nice
2:49:49to not rob them of is agency. I want
2:49:53them to preserve their agency. They're
2:49:55born naturally agentic and willful, but
2:49:58a lot of child raising can beat that out
2:50:00of them by essentially domesticating
2:50:02them. That's right.
2:50:03And I would rather have wild animals and
2:50:04wolves than have well-trained dogs
2:50:07because I'm not going to be around to
2:50:08take care of them.
2:50:09Yeah. So, they're going to have to be
2:50:10able to look after themselves.
2:50:11Exactly. Yeah. A friend of mine, uh,
2:50:13Parsa on, uh, on Air Chat, uh, he had a
2:50:16great saying. He said, uh, he wants his,
2:50:18uh, children to be quick to learn and
2:50:20hard to kill.
2:50:22[Laughter]
2:50:23thought that was pretty good.
2:50:24Yeah,
2:50:25that was cool. I remember you saying
2:50:27just thinking about sort of future and
2:50:29culture and stuff like that. I remember
2:50:31you saying that the left had won the
2:50:32culture war and now they're just driving
2:50:34around shooting the survivors,
2:50:35right?
2:50:36After the last 6 months of change that
2:50:38we've seen and sort of where we're at at
2:50:40the moment, what do you think the future
2:50:42of the culture war looks like?
2:50:44It's not over yet. Um, they definitely
2:50:47won earlier rounds. They took over
2:50:48institutions. I think now it's much more
2:50:50of a fair fight. Um where you have
2:50:53people like Elon, you know, kind of
2:50:55supporting uh so so there there's these
2:50:59different forces through history, right?
2:51:01Historians will argue about this. Uh but
2:51:03there's a theory of the great man of
2:51:05history thing where it's like oh you
2:51:06have the Einsteins, you have the Teslas,
2:51:08you have the um the Jangaskhans and the
2:51:11Caesars, right? They determine the flow
2:51:13of history. And then there's the other
2:51:15uh point of view that no there are these
2:51:17massive forces at play you know
2:51:19demographics and geography and so on and
2:51:21then the particular great man doesn't
2:51:23matter they just come and go Napoleon
2:51:24doesn't matter they would have been
2:51:25somebody else uh the specific names are
2:51:27not important and because of kind of the
2:51:29leftist turn that our institutions took
2:51:31in the last few uh decades they now only
2:51:34subscribe to the great forces theory of
2:51:36history not the great man theory of
2:51:37history but I think now we're seeing the
2:51:38two play out where you're seeing you
2:51:41know Trump and Elon and other
2:51:42individuals is rising up and saying no,
2:51:44we resist.
2:51:45Yeah, that's interesting.
2:51:45And um I think that unfortunately
2:51:50and so the battle between kind of these
2:51:51these these collectivists and great
2:51:53forces versus individuals, it's as old
2:51:55as humanity itself. And and it is
2:51:57fundamental to the species. We are not a
2:52:00completely individualistic species. You
2:52:02know, no man is an island. A single
2:52:03person can't do anything by themselves.
2:52:05But we're also not a Borg. We're not a
2:52:08beehive. We're not an ant colony. We're
2:52:10not all just drones marching along. So,
2:52:12which is it? We we're somewhere in the
2:52:14middle. And the human race is always
2:52:16kind of bouncing between the two. We
2:52:18like strong leaders. We like to be led.
2:52:20Um we like to coordinate our forces and
2:52:22and and mass and and do things. Uh but
2:52:25at the same time, we're also all
2:52:26individuals and willing to break away
2:52:28and willing to do our own thing and
2:52:29everyone's always fighting to be a
2:52:30leader and there's always status games
2:52:32going on. So, u we're there's a pendulum
2:52:35that's always swinging back and forth.
2:52:37And in modern economics, the way that
2:52:39manifests is between sort of Marxism and
2:52:41capitalism, right? Marxism is like from
2:52:43each according to his ability to each
2:52:45according to his needs. We're all equal.
2:52:47There's a millennial project. We're all
2:52:48going to be equal in the end. And and
2:52:50you know, don't try and stand out, but
2:52:52do what's good for everybody. Um, and
2:52:54there's a religious aspect to it. And
2:52:55then the the capitalist individualist is
2:52:58like libertarian. Every man for himself.
2:52:59You just each do what you want and it'll
2:53:01work out for the greater good. That's
2:53:02Adam Smith. You know, the invisible hand
2:53:04of the market will feed you. the baker
2:53:05should bake and the butcher should
2:53:06butcher and the candlestick maker should
2:53:08make candlesticks and it'll all work
2:53:09out. Each person does their best and
2:53:11they trade and so which is it which
2:53:12which which theory is correct and I
2:53:15think there's always going to be a
2:53:16battle between the two and
2:53:19I think
2:53:22the interesting thing is what's going on
2:53:24there's a modern flavor to it which
2:53:26changes it. The modern flavor is that
2:53:30the individual is getting more powerful
2:53:32because they're becoming more leverage.
2:53:34So someone like an Elon Musk can have
2:53:36the leverage of tens of thousands of
2:53:38brilliant engineers and producers
2:53:40working for him. He can have factories
2:53:42of robots manufacturing things. He can
2:53:44have hundreds of billions of dollars of
2:53:45capital behind him and he can project
2:53:47himself through media to hundreds of
2:53:49millions of people. That is more power
2:53:51than any individual could have had
2:53:52historically. So the great men of
2:53:54history are becoming greater.
2:53:56That said, that same leverage is
2:53:59increasing the gap between the halves
2:54:01and have nots. So in the wealth game,
2:54:03more people are winning overall and the
2:54:05average is going up. But in the status
2:54:06game, there are essentially more losers.
2:54:08There are more invisible men and women
2:54:10who are getting nothing out of life and
2:54:12have no leverage. Relatively speaking.
2:54:14Objectively speaking, they might be
2:54:16better off. They still have phones and
2:54:17they still have TVs and they're not
2:54:19absolutist creatures though. We're
2:54:20relative creatures.
2:54:21Correct. And so to the extent that we're
2:54:22relatives creatures, there are more
2:54:23losers than winners. And in a democracy,
2:54:26those people will outnumber the winners
2:54:29and they will vote the winners down.
2:54:31Yep. Um, and so that's the battle that
2:54:33kind of goes on and the democracy has
2:54:35gotten very broad. And so one of my
2:54:36other quips is that um it's not the
2:54:40right to vote that gives you power, it's
2:54:42power that gives you the right to vote.
2:54:44So we've confused the two. So what
2:54:47happened was, you know, voting started
2:54:49as a way for people who had power to
2:54:51divide up the power, not fight amongst
2:54:53themselves. The winners of the
2:54:54revolution, the winners of the war, the
2:54:56people in the House of Lords and the
2:54:58House of Commons, they divide up power
2:54:59amongst themselves. to say, "Hey, we
2:55:01have all the money. We have the power.
2:55:03We are the knights. We have the swords.
2:55:04We have the warriors. We could kill
2:55:06everybody, but we don't want to just
2:55:07fight each other all day long. We don't
2:55:08have to be Game of Thrones forever. So,
2:55:10we're going to divide up power by voting
2:55:11among ourselves." But then, as society
2:55:14goes on and becomes more and more
2:55:15peaceful, that franchise for voting gets
2:55:17spread. It gets spread to people who
2:55:19don't have land, who don't have power,
2:55:21who may not be able to inflict physical
2:55:23violence. And then eventually, you get
2:55:24to the point where everybody's voting.
2:55:26Everybody's voting. and everybody was
2:55:27voting for candy and fairies and you
2:55:29know all the free things in life.
2:55:31Uh and then eventually people start
2:55:33voting to oppress each other. The 51% in
2:55:36in any domain vote to oppress the 49s,
2:55:39the tyranny, the majority. But not all
2:55:41of them are willing to back that up with
2:55:43physical power. And so you can end up in
2:55:45a situation where people who don't have
2:55:47physical power are using the
2:55:49institutions of the state to control the
2:55:51people who do have physical power. as a
2:55:53simple example taking the United States
2:55:55the people who don't have guns voting to
2:55:57disarm the people that do have guns
2:55:59right well if the people who do have
2:56:00guns get coordinated and care enough you
2:56:02can't do that right so I think
2:56:04eventually these societal structures are
2:56:06unstable they break down and they break
2:56:08down because eventually the people who
2:56:10have the power and say no wait a minute
2:56:12you don't get to vote you you only got
2:56:14to vote because you had power and now
2:56:15you don't have power and you're somehow
2:56:17trying to vote
2:56:18all of nature all of society all of
2:56:20capitalism all of human endeavors are
2:56:23underpinned by physical violence. And
2:56:25that is very hard truth to swallow and
2:56:27hard to get away from. Nature is read in
2:56:29tooth and claw. If you don't fight, you
2:56:31don't survive. You don't live, you die.
2:56:33And that's true of everything alive
2:56:35today.
2:56:36And humans are no different. So giving
2:56:38up physical power and then thinking you
2:56:40can exercise political power fails.
2:56:41Which is why every communist revolution,
2:56:44which is all about equality and kumbaya
2:56:46and brothers and sisters, end up being
2:56:47run by a bunch of thugs. Because if you
2:56:49don't have a way to divide up the wealth
2:56:51based on merit, then it's always going
2:56:53to be based on power and influence. The
2:56:54thugs with the guns always win in the
2:56:56end. So the question is just can you
2:56:58keep the thugs and the with the guns
2:57:01paid and happy and successful society
2:57:03where you're allocating based on merit
2:57:05because if you can't then you do it
2:57:06based on power. So I do think that this
2:57:09battle is not over but that's because it
2:57:10it never stopped. It's always been there
2:57:12from day one. It will continue. Is it a
2:57:14battle to not care about the news in an
2:57:17age of news saturation? All of this
2:57:19stuff, headlines 24 hours a day,
2:57:21streamed directly into your
2:57:22consciousness through a device in your
2:57:23pocket. You know, a lot of what we've
2:57:25spoken about today is freedom. Freedom
2:57:28from having to think about things or
2:57:29care about things that you do not have
2:57:31control over or that you shouldn't or
2:57:32that you don't want to. And yet people
2:57:34are just like submerged up to the bottom
2:57:37of their nostrils basically drowning in
2:57:40worry. So how Yeah. Is it is it a battle
2:57:44to sort of stay out of the news when
2:57:45you're saturated in it?
2:57:46Yeah. I mean, as you're saying, the
2:57:47human brain has not evolved to handle
2:57:50all the world's emergencies breaking in
2:57:52real time and you can't care about
2:57:53everything and you'll go insane if you
2:57:55try. Um, doesn't mean you shouldn't care
2:57:57at all. There's no should. I mean, if
2:57:59you want to care, go ahead and care. I
2:58:01would just say that you're probably
2:58:02better off only caring about things that
2:58:04are local or things that you can affect.
2:58:06So, if you really care about something
2:58:07that's in the news, then by all means
2:58:09care about it, but make a difference. Go
2:58:11do something about it. uh and make sure
2:58:13that it's your overwhelming desire and
2:58:15you don't have five other desires at the
2:58:17same time. Um also just realize the
2:58:19consequences of it. You're going to be
2:58:20unhappy until that thing gets fixed and
2:58:22that thing will often be out of your
2:58:24control.
2:58:25Desire is a contract to be unhappy until
2:58:27you get what you want. But exactly for
2:58:29the most part that's something that is
2:58:30in your life. It's like till I lose the
2:58:32weight until I get the job.
2:58:34Outside too. Yeah. If it's until the
2:58:37carbon dioxide parts per million are
2:58:39below this particular number. It's like
2:58:40that's a that's a tough one. Or all the
2:58:42people with Trump derangement syndrome,
2:58:44right? He's living rentree in their
2:58:45heads and driving them insane. And I get
2:58:47it. I mean, there are politicians who
2:58:48have definitely driven me insane as
2:58:50well. Um, but it comes at a very high
2:58:52cost and is something that is out of
2:58:54your control that you cannot really
2:58:55influence.
2:58:56Um, so it's probably good to at least be
2:58:59conscious of it.
2:59:01You mentioned uh historians before. One
2:59:04of my friends has a a question, his
2:59:06equivalent of uh Peter Thiel's question
2:59:09of uh what is it that you believe that
2:59:10most people would disagree with? His is
2:59:13what do you think is currently ignored
2:59:14by the media but will be studied by
2:59:16historians?
2:59:20You're asking me that question right
2:59:21now. What do I think is ignored by the
2:59:23media but will be studied by historians?
2:59:26Well, I mean
2:59:28the media is only focused on
2:59:33very timely things, right? So, it
2:59:36depends if you want to talk about timely
2:59:37or timeless, right?
2:59:39But as a as a simple example, if I just
2:59:41look at things that maybe the next five
2:59:43or 10 years that are going to make a
2:59:45massive difference that people are not
2:59:47focused enough on.
2:59:49Um, and I think within two years this
2:59:51will be obvious. So, like they make a
2:59:53prediction and predictions are tough,
2:59:55but and I have to eat it in a few years.
2:59:56Yeah, I'm going have to eat eat this in
2:59:57a few years. So, I'm probably wrong, but
2:59:59uh two things that I pay attention to um
3:00:02that I don't think uh a lot of people do
3:00:03pay attention to. Well, there's a
3:00:05couple. One is I think just how bad
3:00:07modern medicine is. I think people just
3:00:09put a lot more faith in modern medicine
3:00:11than is warranted. Like our best ideas
3:00:13for a lot of things are surgery, just
3:00:15cutting things out, right? Uh treating
3:00:17things that are extraneous like, oh, you
3:00:19don't really need a gallbladder, you
3:00:20don't really need an appendix or you
3:00:21don't really need tonsils. Oh, that's
3:00:22false. every the surplus requirement.
3:00:25Human body is very very efficient. All
3:00:26those things are needed. Um you know so
3:00:29I think I think the state of modern
3:00:30medicine is still pretty bad. We don't
3:00:31have many good explanatory theories in
3:00:33biology. Um we have germ theory disease.
3:00:36We have um evolution, we have uh cell
3:00:40theory, we have DNA genetics, um
3:00:43morphogenesis, embryogenesis and not
3:00:45much else. You know there's not much
3:00:47else. Everything else is rules of thumb
3:00:48memorization. A affects B because
3:00:51affects C affects D but we don't
3:00:52understand the underlying explanation.
3:00:54It's all just words pointing to words
3:00:56pointing to words. So biology is still
3:00:58in a very sorry state and because we are
3:01:00not allowed to take risk that might kill
3:01:02people. Um we just don't experiment
3:01:05enough in biology. So a lot of
3:01:06treatments are just outright banned by
3:01:08large regulatory bodies. So we just
3:01:10don't have the innovation. So I think
3:01:12we're still in the stone age when it
3:01:13comes to biology and we got a long ways
3:01:15to go. Uh, and I think people will look
3:01:17back agast at this. And I think this is
3:01:18Brian Johnson's point. He's like, you
3:01:20know, let's be more more extreme. Let's
3:01:22try to live forever. We must be more
3:01:24experimental. And I'll start as end of
3:01:25one and start experimenting on myself.
3:01:27And
3:01:28um, but even there, I disagree with
3:01:30Brian in many things like, you know,
3:01:31taking huge amounts of supplements. I
3:01:32think we just don't know supplements
3:01:34outside of their natural context like
3:01:35just eat liver, man. Right. Um, but
3:01:38that's fine. And and I wouldn't be vegan
3:01:40either, but you know, it's it's I I
3:01:41really appreciate that he's
3:01:42experimenting. He's good naturatured
3:01:44about he shares everything. So we need
3:01:46more people like that.
3:01:47Um so I think the state of biology
3:01:49people will look back and say wow that
3:01:51was in the dark ages.
3:01:52Um I think uh another uh another thing
3:01:56that we'll look back on is I think we we
3:01:58still continue to underestimate how
3:02:00important drones are going to be in
3:02:01warfare. The future of all warfare is
3:02:04drones. There will be nothing else on
3:02:05the battlefield. Um because I think of
3:02:07the end state of drones as autonomous
3:02:09bullets. Not even guided autonomous like
3:02:11they're self-directed. Uh, and so if
3:02:13that's the future we're headed towards,
3:02:15and that's a it is dist.
3:02:16Why would you have an armed force that's
3:02:17there's going to be no there's there's
3:02:18going to be no aircraft carriers,
3:02:20there's going to be no tanks, there's
3:02:21going to be no infantry men, there's
3:02:22just going to be autonomous bullets. Buy
3:02:24autonomous bullets against your
3:02:25autonomous bullets. Whichever ones win,
3:02:26the other side just surrenders cuz it's
3:02:27over. Um, I think that's the second
3:02:30piece of it. I think a a third piece
3:02:33that is going to be uh kind of
3:02:34unexpected is the GLP1s, which I know
3:02:37you and I have privately discussed
3:02:38before. I think these are the most
3:02:40breakthrough drugs since antibiotics.
3:02:42Um, they're probably more important than
3:02:43statins. They're sort of miracle drugs.
3:02:45They seem to the there there are
3:02:47downsides, but the downsides and side
3:02:49effects are so minor compared to the
3:02:50upsides beyond just weight loss. Um,
3:02:53they also seem to be addiction breakers.
3:02:55They seem to lower many kinds of cancer.
3:02:57They almost metabolically reverse aging
3:03:00up to a certain point. Um, and I think
3:03:02they're going to bend the curve on
3:03:03health care costs. And uh the big
3:03:06question people are going to be asking
3:03:07over the next 5 years is why are
3:03:09Americans paying thousands of dollars a
3:03:11month for this when people overseas are
3:03:12getting them for free or I can order
3:03:14them from China for free or whatever. Um
3:03:16and maybe it like if I were Bernie
3:03:19Sanders the platform I would be running
3:03:20on is I would say okay we're going to
3:03:22pay you know hundreds of billions of
3:03:24dollars to Novo and Eli Liy and we're
3:03:26just going to make these free or there's
3:03:28hundreds of analoges of these things
3:03:29that work. These are not going to be,
3:03:31you know, limited to just the few that
3:03:33are that are being used today. Just take
3:03:35one of them or two of them, make them
3:03:36free,
3:03:37and I think it'll make a big difference.
3:03:38And,
3:03:39uh, as you and I were discussing
3:03:40earlier, uh, this does bend a lot of
3:03:42people out of shape who got there the
3:03:44oldfashioned way, and they want to see
3:03:46obesity as a moral failing on people's
3:03:48parts and it lowers their status
3:03:51if they are suddenly
3:03:53signal is less of a signal. Yeah.
3:03:54Correct. Absolutely. Yeah. So, so
3:03:55they're incented to say, "Oh, well, you
3:03:57don't know the downsides." it's, you
3:03:58know, it's irresponsible to suggest it's
3:04:00going to cause cancer. Have fun losing
3:04:01bone and muscle mass. But none of that
3:04:03stuff is really true. The cancer stuff
3:04:05is actually beneficial on. I know people
3:04:07who are now taking these things for
3:04:08anti-aging reasons. Um, they're already
3:04:10fit, but they just want to age better
3:04:12and have a stronger insulin metabolism.
3:04:14Um, and there's evidence now these
3:04:16things are, you know, they put off
3:04:18dementia, Alzheimer's, colon cancer.
3:04:21It's insane. Cardiovascular disease,
3:04:23like the the list of benefits is insane.
3:04:25There's no free lunch. But
3:04:28this is a class of drugs that prevents
3:04:30you from taking other drugs into your
3:04:33body. It prevents you from taking uh you
3:04:36know too much sugar, too many calories
3:04:39in an era of abundance, prevents you
3:04:41from smoking, prevents you from even uh
3:04:44there's an organization called Casper
3:04:45that is now doing a study on heroin
3:04:47addictions and they're showing that this
3:04:49can lower opioid overdoses and heroin
3:04:51addiction. So there's a lot of
3:04:53overwhelming medical evidence coming out
3:04:56and I think I don't I don't know the
3:04:58exact number but I think something like
3:04:5910% of the population might not have
3:05:01tried these things.
3:05:02I think that's the number that I' seen
3:05:03as well.
3:05:03It's massive.
3:05:04I think it's about 50% of the population
3:05:06say that they would like to try it.
3:05:07Exactly. So uh I think the body
3:05:10positivity movement is dead and we
3:05:12always kind of knew it was a scam.
3:05:13I mean it's dying very very quickly.
3:05:15Yeah. Equipped like you can never be too
3:05:17rich, too thin or too clean, right? And
3:05:19immediately like a whole bunch of people
3:05:21went nonlinear my mention like what do
3:05:22you mean too thin and what about the
3:05:24hygiene hypothesis and you know
3:05:26obviously there's always exceptions but
3:05:27people want to be thin and fit and
3:05:29people want to be clean back to the
3:05:31pathogen discussion that we had.
3:05:32Um so I think overall that there's going
3:05:36to be huge demand for these things and
3:05:38our modern medical system is not built
3:05:40to supply these. Well, I'm not I'm not I
3:05:43don't hold it against the phases. I
3:05:45think the farmers did their job by
3:05:46creating the thing, but I think next we
3:05:48need to step up and figure out how to
3:05:50make it broadly and cheaply available as
3:05:52opposed to just milk it for only for,
3:05:54you know, people on obesity who can get
3:05:56Medicare to sign off for it or people
3:05:58paying out of pocket at very very high
3:05:59prices.
3:06:00Yeah.
3:06:00Um the the benefits of societal
3:06:02distribution of the safer GLP ones is so
3:06:06large that whichever politicians uh
3:06:09tackles that is going to be richly
3:06:11rewarded. Well, obesity is the number
3:06:13one source of malnutrition worldwide.
3:06:16There's twice as many people that are
3:06:17obese than are starving. So about half a
3:06:19billion people are starving in a
3:06:20billion.
3:06:20So many problems are downstream of that.
3:06:22Like you know, look at how much of the
3:06:23federal budget goes into diialysis
3:06:25because of kidney failure. And why is
3:06:26that? It's because of diabetes, right?
3:06:28So so many of the problems that we have
3:06:30in modern society are downstream of
3:06:32obesity. And you know this like fitness
3:06:34is so important. Uh and yes, there's in
3:06:37some people these things call mus cause
3:06:39muscle and bone loss, but not in the
3:06:41people who are eating high protein and
3:06:42working out hard. So it they can be
3:06:44taken a way that's safer. And some
3:06:46versions of these like literal glutai,
3:06:48the original one, they've been around
3:06:49for decades, and the others have been
3:06:51around for about a decade. So and we
3:06:53already have, as you said, 10% of the
3:06:55population taking them. So they're
3:06:56already quite widely distributed.
3:06:57A good sample size.
3:06:58Yeah, it's a great sample size. What
3:07:00more do you need? Like if if you if you
3:07:02have a bacterial infection that's eating
3:07:04you, I don't say, "Oh, I have this
3:07:06antibiotic, but it's going to raise your
3:07:07blood pressure." It's like, "No, take
3:07:08the antibiotic." If you're going to kill
3:07:10yourself, I say, "Take this
3:07:11antisycchotic and stay alive a little
3:07:13longer and solve it." I don't say, "Oh,
3:07:14it's going to, you know, cause your
3:07:15heart rate to go up by three beats a
3:07:17minute. I don't worry about that." So
3:07:18similarly, if you're poisoning yourself
3:07:20with toxins and overuse of substances
3:07:22that you shouldn't be using, either
3:07:23heroin, alcohol, cigarettes, sugar, or
3:07:26just sheer calories, um, take this GLP1.
3:07:31Uh, they also improve digestion. You
3:07:33just have less cal, just less food
3:07:35matter going through your stomach. They
3:07:36lower cancer risks across the board.
3:07:38There's quite a few cancers that lower.
3:07:40Um, cardiovasc I mean, I don't know what
3:07:42else to tell you. I've been very
3:07:44surprised by the negative reception
3:07:46whenever you have a conversation about
3:07:48GLP1s and I think a lot of it may be
3:07:51people who and and well think about how
3:07:54many sacred cows are being gored right
3:07:56all the people who are basically saying
3:07:59uh you should work harder you should be
3:08:00fit like I did right it's lowering their
3:08:02status think about all the nutritionists
3:08:04and doctors and trainers who are now
3:08:06being you know it's too easy they're
3:08:08being put out of business in a way right
3:08:11uh it's kind of like why does the
3:08:13American military keep buying aircraft
3:08:14carriers, right? In the age of drones,
3:08:17um there's an incentive bias. There's a
3:08:20very strong motivated reasoning. Uh but
3:08:22it doesn't matter. 10% people are on it.
3:08:24Uh everybody wants to be fit. It's going
3:08:26to spread like wildfire. M we I was just
3:08:30thinking as you were talking that you
3:08:31know when we think about health and a
3:08:33lot of people kind of get captured by
3:08:35the way that they were brought up the
3:08:36the the habits that they had from their
3:08:38childhood or what mom and dad did or
3:08:40genetic predisposition and stuff like
3:08:42that. I think um you have as many
3:08:45reasons as as many people to sort of
3:08:48feel hard done by by challenges that you
3:08:50had earlier on in in your life. Is
3:08:53getting past your past a skill? Sort of
3:08:56not being owned today by your history.
3:08:58Sort of not having that victimhood
3:09:00mentality. Yeah, I I did have a uh tough
3:09:04childhood, but I don't think about it.
3:09:06You know, I I think there are a couple
3:09:08of things going on there. One is I did
3:09:10process it quite a bit. I thought about
3:09:11it, but I thought about it to get rid of
3:09:13it. I didn't think about it to dwell on
3:09:15it or to like indulge.
3:09:16Yeah. I wanted to be successful. I
3:09:18wanted more than anything else to rise
3:09:20past that. And so I couldn't have that
3:09:22as a burden on me. So I had to get rid
3:09:24of it. So to the extent that I dealt
3:09:25with it, it was to it was for the
3:09:28express purpose of getting rid of it,
3:09:29not to create an identity or story or to
3:09:31reflect upon it or to say look at me,
3:09:33look at what I've accomplished and look
3:09:34how great I am and what I've done. So I
3:09:36got rid of it and I think at some point
3:09:38you you wrestle with that thing and then
3:09:39you just realize like you're never going
3:09:41to untangle the whole thing. It's a
3:09:42Gordian knot problem. uh like Alexander
3:09:44you know found that tangled knot in
3:09:46India and uh they said oh the famous
3:09:49conqueror will come and will untie this
3:09:50knot nobody else can untie the knot and
3:09:52he took one look at it pulled out a
3:09:53sword and just cut it. So at some point
3:09:55you just have to cut your past if your
3:09:56past is bothering you you will
3:09:58eventually get tired of trying to
3:10:00untangle that knot and you will just
3:10:01drop it because you will realize life is
3:10:03short and the more you have more you
3:10:05want to accomplish in this life actually
3:10:07the less time you have to unravel that
3:10:09thing. So I just wanted to actually get
3:10:11things done. So I had no time to deal
3:10:13with it. So I just cut it. It's like a
3:10:14really bad relationship. But in this
3:10:16case, it's a bad relationship with your
3:10:18own history. So you just drop it.
3:10:20Yeah. I think you know so much of what
3:10:22we've spoken about today is on the
3:10:24shortness of life and uh the fact that
3:10:27every moment is precious. You had to
3:10:29take about um that the most fundamental
3:10:32resource in your life is not time, it's
3:10:34attention.
3:10:35That's right. I used to think, you know,
3:10:36the currency of life, right? People
3:10:39think it's money and yes, money is
3:10:40important and it does let you trade
3:10:42certain things for time, but it doesn't
3:10:43really buy you time. Ask Warren Buffett
3:10:45how much time money can buy you or
3:10:47Michael Bloomberg. They're, you know,
3:10:49rich as Scrooge and and Chris, but they
3:10:52can't buy more time, right? Brian
3:10:53Johnson, notwithstanding.
3:10:55Um, so you can't trade money for time.
3:10:59Money is not the real currency of life.
3:11:02And
3:11:04time itself doesn't even mean that much
3:11:06because as we talked about before, a lot
3:11:08of time can be wasted because you're not
3:11:10really present for it. You're not paying
3:11:12attention. So the real currency of life
3:11:14is attention. It's what you choose to
3:11:16pay attention to and and and what you do
3:11:19about it. And so back to the point about
3:11:22the news media, you can put your
3:11:24attention on the news, but that's how
3:11:26you're spending the real currency of
3:11:28life. So just be aware of that. If you
3:11:30want to, that's fine. There's no there's
3:11:32no right or wrong here. Like maybe it is
3:11:34your destiny to pick something in the
3:11:36news, learn about that problem, adopt
3:11:38that problem, and solve it. But just be
3:11:40careful because your attention is the
3:11:43only thing that you have
3:11:44and that can also be captured by your
3:11:45own past. It
3:11:47Yes. You can fritter it away on anything
3:11:48you like.
3:11:49Is there an advantage to starting out as
3:11:51a loser?
3:11:52Uh absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. cuz if you're
3:11:55because if you're a loser then you'll
3:11:56want to be a winner and then you'll
3:11:58develop all the characteristics that
3:12:00will help you be a you know quote
3:12:01unquote winner in life. That said, I
3:12:03wouldn't sentence my kids to it. Like I
3:12:05don't think you can artificially do
3:12:06that. You know, it's it's sort of like
3:12:07imagine that you were you know 300 years
3:12:10ago you're born a surf and then somehow
3:12:12you managed to escape off the farm and
3:12:14you become a land owner and then
3:12:15eventually you become minor nobility and
3:12:16aristocrat. Are you going to put your
3:12:18kids back on the farm and say you're
3:12:19going to be a surf again? I know they
3:12:21all like those stories. the the kids
3:12:23themselves like those stories because it
3:12:24says I came from the school of hard
3:12:25knocks. My dad made me go shovel hay for
3:12:27a summer. It's not real. I mean, you're
3:12:29not going to trick them. Um I think what
3:12:32you can all you can do is kind of uh
3:12:34cultivate an appreciation and gratitude
3:12:36for what you have. And the only way to
3:12:38do that is just evidence it yourself,
3:12:40right? Just show yourself how you spend
3:12:42money, how you respect it, what you do
3:12:44with it, how you take care of people,
3:12:46who you're responsible for. and and and
3:12:49the more resources you have, the greater
3:12:52the tribe you can take care of. The more
3:12:53of the tribe you can take care of. So
3:12:56when you have no resources, you're
3:12:57struggling to take care of yourself. And
3:12:58at that point, it's good to be selfish
3:13:00cuz you can't save somebody else if you
3:13:02can't even save yourself. Yes.
3:13:04So you take care of yourself and you
3:13:05become the best version of yourself. But
3:13:07there are too many men who are able,
3:13:10fit, and have some money who are doing
3:13:12nothing with their lives. They're just
3:13:13sitting at home doing nothing, just
3:13:14indulging in themselves. Maybe they go
3:13:16on dates and they get Door Dash. Like I
3:13:17have no respect for that. I think
3:13:19there's nothing worse in society than a
3:13:20lazy man
3:13:21because he's sort of he's sort of
3:13:24leaving it all on the table. He's
3:13:25leaving his potential on the table. It's
3:13:26bad for him. So the next thing you do is
3:13:28you go and you have a family and you
3:13:30take care of your family. Take care of
3:13:31that tribe. Then you take care of your
3:13:32extended family. You take care of your
3:13:34cousins, brothers, uncles, grandmothers,
3:13:36aunts, you know, sisters, everybody that
3:13:38you can. And then if you have more
3:13:40resources beyond that, then you go take
3:13:41care of your local tribe. You take care
3:13:43of your people. Um you start trying to
3:13:45do some good for the world. And if you
3:13:46have more resource than that, you go
3:13:47take care of an even bigger tribe. And
3:13:49that's how you earn both respect and
3:13:51self-confidence and you live up to your
3:13:52potential. So the the more you have, the
3:13:55more is rightfully expected of you. And
3:13:59I think it's a good compact with society
3:14:01when highly capable people express and
3:14:04flex that capability by giving more and
3:14:05more and by doing more and more. And
3:14:07society rewards them with the one thing
3:14:09they can't get otherwise which is
3:14:11status.
3:14:11Right? So society should give you status
3:14:13in exchange for it. Um, they should say,
3:14:15"Okay, you did a good job. You took care
3:14:17of more people than than just yourself
3:14:19and just the people immediately around
3:14:20you." Uh, and that's what an alpha male
3:14:23to me is. An alpha male is not the one
3:14:24who gets to eat first. The alpha male
3:14:26eats last. The alpha male feeds
3:14:28everybody else first and then gets to
3:14:29eat last. And they do that out of their
3:14:31own self-respect and pride. And society
3:14:33rewards them by calling them an alpha
3:14:34and giving them status.
3:14:36I wonder whether some of the push back
3:14:37that we've got against uh rich, wealthy,
3:14:41powerful people is disincentivizing. Uh
3:14:44it is like who was it? Zuck who you know
3:14:46donated money at Zuckerberg General's
3:14:47hospital and they wanted to pull his
3:14:49name off of it. I mean that's
3:14:50I didn't see that but that's
3:14:52that kind of stuff backfires right you
3:14:54you should reward people for doing
3:14:57what were you saying before you don't
3:14:58just need to in fact actually actively
3:15:00avoid castigating people if you want
3:15:02their behavior to change when they get
3:15:03something wrong. Look at reinforcing it
3:15:05when they get something right. It's
3:15:06happening at a a societal level as well.
3:15:08Correct. I mean, like the the guys who
3:15:11make a lot of money and go out and buy
3:15:13sports teams, I wouldn't do that, right?
3:15:16But the one who goes out and builds a
3:15:18hospital or builds a rocket to take
3:15:20people to the moon, uh, you know, or
3:15:21rescue some astronauts, you should be
3:15:23rewarding him for that.
3:15:24Mhm.
3:15:25Naval, I really appreciate you. Uh, I
3:15:27hope that this has lived up to whatever
3:15:29weird daydreams you've been having. Um,
3:15:32what have you got coming up? What can
3:15:34people expect from you over the next
3:15:35however long?
3:15:36Expect nothing.
3:15:38That's the most naval way that we could
3:15:40have finished this, dude. It's uh it's
3:15:42been a long time coming and I really do
3:15:44appreciate you for being here today.
3:15:45But I do hope you deliver something.
3:15:46Oh, I think you have.
3:15:47So, thank you. Thanks for having me.
3:15:49Thank you, too.
3:15:50Thanks for getting in my mind. And
3:15:51hopefully now you're out.
3:15:52We'll see. Maybe even worse now you've
3:15:54got the real memories to stick.
3:15:56I don't know. The reason to win the game
3:15:57is to be free of it. The reason The
3:15:59reason to do the podcast is to be is to
3:16:01be done with it.
3:16:03All right. Wow. You made it to the end.
3:16:06Congratulations. Well, if you enjoyed
3:16:07that, you're going to love my fulllength
3:16:09conversation with the one and only
3:16:10Alander Boton from the School of Life
3:16:13right here.
3:16:16Go on.
3:16:18[Music]

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