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41 Harsh Truths Nobody Wants To Admit - Alex Hormozi (4K) — Transcript

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0:00We are back again. Speed insighting our
0:03way through stuff about how hard life
0:05is. The Queen of England died 18 months
0:08ago. She ruled an entire nation and
0:10accumulated more wealth than 99.9% of
0:13humans. And yet, you haven't thought
0:15about her except for right now. No
0:17matter how big your dreams, you're going
0:19to die. Everyone will move on. Do what
0:22you want. It sucks to not be liked, but
0:24it sucks more to not be
0:27yourself. Yeah. It's really interesting
0:29when we think about what tactically
0:31happens when someone dies, right? Like a
0:33lot of emotion exists in the vague, but
0:35far less in the specific because you
0:38plan your funeral, right? And then you
0:40think that everyone's going to be
0:41standing there just forever changed
0:43because of the death and the impact that
0:44you had on their lives. But the reality
0:47is there's going to be a caterer at the
0:50funeral. Some people are going to like
0:51the food. Some people are going to
0:53comment that it was too cheap, you know,
0:54the food that you had. Um, they're going
0:56to have comment on the venue like, "Oh,
0:57I don't really, you know, it's a little
0:58hot. There's gonna be somebody who's
1:00gonna uh make a list of people and
1:01they're going to check them off. Some
1:03people aren't going to be able to make
1:04it last minute because things came up
1:05and it got busy." And after the whole
1:09funeral's over, everyone's going to go
1:11to a restaurant and just eat dinner and
1:14then move on with their lives. And so
1:17not to say that you know the people who
1:20you know mean a lot to you uh won't
1:22remember you to a degree sure but on the
1:26macro scale when I think about somebody
1:28like the queen who accomplished so much
1:30in her life as like the the zenith of
1:33you know
1:34accomplishment and most people probably
1:36even thought about her today except for
1:38the fact that we just brought it up. And
1:40so I think that just it um whenever I
1:42have um my harder times, that's my my
1:44like reminder to self of um the
1:47absurdity of it all, which is like
1:49someone's going to argue over what
1:52appetizer they're going to serve when I
1:54die. This probably doesn't matter that
1:56much. How does that change the way that
1:59you show up and operate in the moment? I
2:01think it just decreases affect in in the
2:04in the acute moment. So I, you know, I
2:08define resiliency as the amount of time
2:11after an aversive stimulus, after a bad
2:13thing happens, that you return back to
2:14baseline behavior. And so, um, and then
2:18there's different one, which is how long
2:19is your fuse, which is toughness, and
2:20that's a whole different thing, right?
2:21But resiliency is like, okay, I've been
2:23cracked. You know, I've hit the fuse,
2:24the bomb's gone off. But the size of the
2:26bomb is irrelevant. Like you could be
2:28super resilient, have a terrible day,
2:30your father dies, and then next day
2:32you're back. People are like, "Holy." It
2:34was like you like go to the depths of
2:35hell, you touch the bottom of the pool,
2:37and then you shoot back up. And so I
2:39think about how many different tools can
2:40I have in my tool set to make the
2:42rebound from down to back up as V-shaped
2:45as possible. What are those tools for
2:47you?
2:49Cosmic relevance is probably the biggest
2:51one when I think about like because it's
2:53so fast. I feel like I do it almost
2:54automatically now, which is like, okay,
2:56I'm on a planet spinning around a sun
2:58inside of a galaxy inside of a universe
3:00that will never reach the end of because
3:01it's it's expanding faster than the
3:02speed of light. Okay, the fact that, you
3:05know, there was a mistake in my book
3:08printing, no one's gonna care. No one,
3:10it just doesn't matter, right? Um, so
3:13that's one of them. Another one's the
3:14frame of the veteran, which I use a lot,
3:16which is, um, if this inconvenience
3:18happened a thousand times in a row on
3:20the thousandth time, what would I think
3:23about it? Well, I'd probably be like,
3:25well, this is just how life is. And then
3:28if I could feel that way on the
3:29thousandth time, then it means that I
3:30can feel that way on the first time
3:32right now because it's just choice
3:34because the actual circumstance is the
3:35same. Um, those are probably like my two
3:39most prevalent, you know, the ones that
3:41I like my default ones that I they're my
3:43back pocket. There's a a cool insight
3:46that the more you complain, the less
3:47accurate your model of reality. So
3:49complaining is you saying the world
3:52isn't delivering to me that which I
3:54anticipated or expected or desired from
3:57it, which is also you saying I don't
4:00understand how the world works until it
4:02comes and meets me in reality. God, I I
4:05haven't heard it phrased that way and I
4:06really like it. Um I I think about um
4:11the the hate um that we all get whether
4:15it's from ourselves or other people or
4:17the hate that we spew towards the
4:19external conditions is simply boiled
4:21down to this person lives their wife
4:24life in a way that I would not prefer.
4:26And so I have translated every single
4:28negative comment that comes to me um
4:30where someone complains about me. So,
4:32flipping the script um to Alex lives his
4:36life in a way that I would not prefer.
4:39And so, it's actually been this very
4:41weird like, oh, they said all this stuff
4:42and I was like, does that mean that I
4:44live my life in a way they wouldn't
4:45prefer? Great, because they live their
4:47life in a way that I wouldn't prefer and
4:48that's why it's their life and I live my
4:50life and it's just been this really
4:51wonderful reframe that like just almost
4:53comically make that but like completely
4:54minimizes most things. But I think that
4:56complaints come down to that. The
4:58universe exists in a way that I would
4:59not prefer,
5:01right? It's like, why are you not
5:03bending to my will? Yeah. And so, um, I
5:06think, uh, shoot, I can't remember the
5:07psychologist. I'm I'm going to butcher
5:08it, but one of the big guys, um, talked
5:11I want to say Kinsey, but I don't want
5:12to mess it up. Um, talked about there's
5:15three primary things that everyone uh,
5:18casts all their pain and suffering to,
5:20which is you have circumstances, you
5:23have other people, and you have self.
5:25And that's it. Those are the three those
5:27are the three big ones that everyone
5:29puts all of their all of their blame on.
5:31And so the first two obviously don't
5:33serve you. The third sometimes serves
5:35you depending on what you do as a result
5:37of it, right? And so um that actually
5:40those big three has just been a really
5:41easy filter is like, oh am I blaming
5:43circumstances? Am I blaming other
5:44people? Am I blaming me? And um
5:46obviously you want to skip to you cuz
5:47that's the only thing you can do
5:48anything about. the idea
5:52that all of the things that you're
5:54working toward, all of the dreams, all
5:56of those things are going to stop. There
5:57is going to be a day when you no longer
5:59answer your emails. Like I think about
6:01this, I think about how many even now,
6:03right, emails not been allowed for that
6:04around that long, widespread, what,
6:06maybe 25 years, something like that. The
6:08most people have had an email address,
6:09maybe 20 years.
6:10uh all of the people that have died
6:12between then and now. They just have
6:14email inboxes just accumulating stuff
6:18from uh you know lots of newsletters,
6:20lots of online retailers. But there will
6:23also be people expecting a reply, right?
6:27And saying why hasn't this guy replied
6:28to me? It's like because he's dead.
6:31Yeah. There's
6:33um just thinking I I mean I think a lot
6:36about the end of my life. Maybe it's a
6:38borderline obsession of mine, but
6:40thinking about like what the last five
6:42years are going to look like and also
6:43thinking about my cognitive decline,
6:44which is going to be inevitable on the
6:46back half of my, you know, life. Um, and
6:49it gets really tricky when you think
6:50about fluid intelligence, which peaks
6:51when you're like between 25 and 35, and
6:53then like at our age right now, it's
6:55just all going down, right? Like we're
6:57beginning this slow decline. And in
6:59thinking about that, I was like, I will
7:00actually never be sharper than I am
7:01today for the rest of my life. And the
7:05idea that there will be young people who
7:06will replace me because humans are all
7:08replaceable. Um we have proven that. And
7:11so uh when when I think about that it it
7:14decreases the stakes of these huge
7:18dreams that if I don't accomplish them,
7:21I will be upset or else. Um and so it's
7:24like we have these big or elsees like we
7:26threat we want to threaten the universe
7:27like I can't stand it if this does not
7:30occur. It's like and the universe
7:32remains unchanged and the universe is
7:33undefeated.
7:35Correct. Well, that's why I was such my
7:37Twitter bio for a long time was locally
7:39reversing entropy. I remember that.
7:40Yeah. Yeah. And I just love that idea
7:43that
7:44you have the entire universe. This force
7:47entropy which is going to inevitably
7:50destroy everything. Not just everything
7:53you care about. Everything that could
7:54have created anything that anything
7:56could have cared about and it's going to
7:58destroy it. Yeah. But for a brief period
8:00of time, you know, a few decades, you
8:03locally stop the most powerful force in
8:07the universe. I think that's so
8:09cool. I don't know if you saw this, but
8:11Basos has this one page that um was just
8:13brilliant. And he basically um
8:17paraphrases Richard Dawkins talking
8:19about how over
8:23time all organisms revert to their
8:27environment. literally like the
8:28temperature of your body once you die
8:31eventually just normalizes with the
8:33environment. The acidity of what's going
8:34on like inside of your body normalizes
8:37and then eventually like you become one
8:38with your environment. And so it's the
8:40exact same concept. And so Basos was
8:42talking about that quote which was about
8:44biology but he said this is you know
8:47originally about biology but so much
8:48more so about um the way that we want to
8:52live which is that everything around you
8:54will try and force you to dilute
8:56yourself. it will force you to try and
9:00merge in fit in with your surroundings.
9:03And he said like this force is natural
9:05and it's inevitable and yet we have to
9:08fight it. And the fact that it's hard
9:10does not make it less worth it. And I
9:13thought that was like it was just I I
9:15mean I reposted cuz I thought it was so
9:16elegant. It's like a cosmic regression
9:19to the mean. Yeah, it's exactly that's
9:21exactly what it is. Um, and yeah, so I
9:23think if we all know that we're going to
9:25we the regression of the mean is
9:26inevitable like and like again I think
9:29about these things that are I want to
9:30say I don't know if humiliating is the
9:31word but like humilityinducing. Um, but
9:34like the idea that I'll die and then
9:36like worms will eat my body. Just like a
9:39very simple thing like that or if I died
9:41like I was like what if I just died by
9:42an animal killing me? I like sometimes I
9:44think about that and I'm like I would
9:45just be its lunch. Like everything that
9:48I've done up to this point, it's like my
9:50arm will feed its child and like my
9:52thigh will feed it and then like they'll
9:54leave some of it for the good meal. It'
9:57be one one good meal and it just like it
10:00just it just takes the the stakes of
10:02like I'm so important, right? I'm all
10:05these goals matter to just like I could
10:08be lunch and that kind of, you
10:11know, gives me one large exhale.
10:15The single greatest skill you can
10:17develop is the ability to stay in a good
10:19mood in the absence of things to be in a
10:21good mood about. I think that tweet has
10:23been my theme for 2025. Um it's been
10:27it's it's funny because that was the
10:28most shared tweet I've ever had. Um and
10:32it was it was like it's it was almost
10:37um not the opposite of iron. It was
10:39fitting, right? It was completely
10:40fitting for the year. And it's been
10:43because like this year I've had a just I
10:45would say a series of unfortunate events
10:48um that has occurred and it's really
10:50tested my tools right tools in the tool
10:52belt um for reframing reality so that I
10:56can make my experience less you know
10:58miserable. And so I thought about that
11:02it's like if I were if I were to boil
11:04everything down um of all the skills
11:06that you can learn if everything that we
11:07do eventually becomes irrelevant then
11:10the single greatest skill that you can
11:12develop is being in a great mood in the
11:14absence of things to be in a great mood
11:16about. And so one of the other frames on
11:18this is most people don't question
11:21someone who's in a bad mood. Like I'm
11:23just in a bad mood. So it's like well if
11:24you can be in a bad mood for no reason
11:26it's like you might as well be in a good
11:27mood for no reason because that one at
11:29least serves you. And so I've been
11:30trying to exercise like because there's
11:31on one degree there's like let's count
11:33things to be grateful for. On the other
11:35side it's
11:36like why do I have to have things to be
11:39grateful for in order to be in a good
11:41mood? Like why is trying to find things
11:45a requirement of being in that mood?
11:47Like can I not find things and still
11:49choose to be in a good mood? Because
11:50I've certainly not had things to be in a
11:51bad mood about and been in a bad mood.
11:53And so I've been trying to flex that
11:55which is like sure we can find things to
11:56be grateful for and when those things
11:57pop up yes and of course it's a you know
11:59it's a practice you get better at it but
12:00like what if I can just be in a good
12:02mood and so I've just tried to try to
12:05break that that relationship between the
12:06two because then it makes it contingent
12:08on something that I can find. How
12:10successful have you been at that?
12:11Mediocre.
12:13Well look I think it's a it's a a lovely
12:17idea in isolation. Sure. uh in theory,
12:20but I'm not convinced about how
12:21effective it is in practice for the
12:23reason that humans have a negativity
12:24bias. You know, it's our psychological
12:26entropy% and your ability to detect
12:30things that are a risk to you
12:32significantly better than your ability
12:34to detect things that are just pleasant.
12:36Like this morning, I texted you and I
12:38was like, "Hey man, like I really love
12:40the feeling I have of anticipation on a
12:42morning before we do a podcast. That's a
12:44normal, boring, mundane source of
12:47pleasure to me." Yeah.
12:49If I'm not really really training myself
12:52to notice that, yeah, I just it just
12:55falls away with the fact that,
12:57huh, I asked for almond milk and I bet
12:59this would have been better with like
13:00whole milk.
13:02That's the thing that that ruins the
13:04day. And the thing is, you do notice it
13:05though, right? You do notice that. Um,
13:08so I've had um one of my themes this
13:11year has been focusing on moments and on
13:14both the positive and the negative. And
13:16so like when we think back on if I think
13:18back on the last year, right, I don't
13:20remember probably 95% of the year like I
13:22you know I did the same things and so
13:24it's like it just didn't get recorded
13:25like nothing notable happened. Um and so
13:28really like when we think about a year
13:30we really just recall a handful of
13:32moments and that's it. And those moments
13:33in time are usually very short. And so
13:36I've been trying to think about um the
13:38bad, you know, seasons as well maybe it
13:41wasn't a bad season. Maybe I had five
13:44bad days or really five bad moments that
13:48I then thought about for the entire
13:50season and turned what would have
13:52otherwise been 5 minutes times five into
13:56an entirely bad year. And so it's like,
13:59okay, well, if we can do that in the
14:00negative, can we do in the positive,
14:01which is, you know, obviously the thing
14:02to to exercise. But to the point that
14:03you said earlier about our our ability
14:06to detect threat and risk at such a such
14:09better accuracy than our ability to
14:10detect good things, it's so interesting
14:13because if you use that side of your
14:16brain, um, not to derail us, but like I
14:20think that has been one of the things
14:21that's helped me a tremendous amount in
14:24business because when I think about a
14:27business and I want to grow it, for
14:28example, I would think, okay, what are
14:30all the things that can destroy this
14:31business? And this is Charlie Munger.
14:32this isn't me. Um, but basically he says
14:35invert always invert. And Einstein said
14:37that too. And it's because like you get
14:39to use this this way stronger horsepower
14:41engine of like how do I grow my
14:43business? That's a you could obviously
14:46think that way, but the alternative
14:47would be like how would I absolutely
14:48destroy this business in the fewest
14:50possible moves. And then when you list
14:52out those moves, you're like cool, now
14:53let's do the opposite of that. And that
14:56has been um honestly a lot of the some
14:58of the sources of my greatest kind of
14:59creative moments have come from these
15:01apparently obvious things that would
15:03kill us. Well, what if we did the even
15:05more obvious thing and did the the
15:07opposite of what would destroy us. Um
15:09and it's worked. It's worked um better
15:11than I deserve. So, this is a problem.
15:14Yeah. Uh you can be re rewarded
15:18professionally for focusing on things
15:20that you do not want to focus on
15:21personally. And Ryan Long taught me
15:24this. He was talking about how he
15:28comedian, Canadian comedian, really
15:30funny guy. Spends all of this time, you
15:32know, dialing in these bits and
15:34obsessing over how it could be better.
15:36And then he says to himself, "Yeah, but
15:39I don't want you to do that in your
15:40relationships." No. Can you let that go
15:43when it comes to the way that you show
15:45up for your partner or your friends or
15:47your body image or whatever? You don't
15:49get to compartmentalize stuff like that.
15:52And it is a
15:55very unfortunate irony of the world that
16:00the skill set you often need to become
16:02successful in business is the one you
16:04need to get rid of to be happy in your
16:08life. Yes. So I was I was thinking about
16:11what you were saying earlier with
16:13regards to risk and our ability to
16:15detect it. So the other part of that
16:17that's been really interesting is we
16:20also not only do we detect more threats,
16:22we also overemphasize how catastrophic
16:25they could be. And the converse of that
16:28is we rarely identify the upside and
16:32when we do we typically underestimate
16:34the upside. And I think this is
16:35something that a lot of people don't
16:36talk about as much. Um obviously I
16:39always have a business, you know, hat on
16:41literally. Uh and but I think about this
16:44because I think this is where like you
16:46said it at the very beginning that
16:47people complain because they cannot
16:48accurately view reality. And so if we
16:51tie that to this concept, then it means
16:54that people will disproportionately
16:56blame the universe and then perceive
16:59significantly greater risk for them
17:02asking Google out, starting a business,
17:05taking a loan, uh you know, asking a
17:08stranger to buy something, making a
17:10podcast, and for fear of what other
17:12people on the internet will say or
17:13people who know them, right? Right? So
17:14we we catastrophize this side, but the
17:16flip side is and you hear this a lot
17:19when people, you know, do make it and
17:20what not. They're like, I never dreamed
17:21it would be this big. Now, some people
17:23are obsessive and like absolutely have
17:24thought through everything. I fall more
17:26on that side. Uh but uh on on the other
17:29hand though, a lot of people do get
17:30there and they're like, I never thought
17:32it was going to be this big. And it's
17:33because we typically just underemphasize
17:35the upside, which is where from the
17:37business perspective, it's like that's
17:38where the alpha is. That's where the
17:39outperformance exists. where most people
17:42think, hey, this bet uh it could go to
17:44zero. And you're like, h I don't think
17:46it's going to go to zero. But even if it
17:47did go to zero, I have a 10x here. And
17:50so if I have a 50% shot at a 10x and the
17:53other 50 is zero, I should take that
17:55shot every single time knowing that I'm
17:58going to be wrong half the time. It
17:59still makes sense to take. And so I
18:01think um people are not good at making
18:02those riskadjusted return bets um
18:05obviously financially, but even in the
18:07very micro aspect of our lives. And so
18:09the we talked earlier about uh you know
18:11the cosmic irrelevance and the frame of
18:13the veteran but there's a third frame
18:15that I think about a lot which is I call
18:16it play it out. And so it's like let's
18:18no let's let's sit in there because
18:19again fear exists in the vague not in
18:21the specific and in the resistance. Yes.
18:24And so like when we have these um these
18:27spec specificities of like okay I'm
18:29going to start a p I can't start a
18:31podcast like okay it's this big vague
18:33thing but no like let's play it out like
18:35let's see what actually would happen.
18:36So, I'm going to upload something and
18:38then people don't listen to
18:41it. Okay. Well, they didn't listen to
18:43it. Okay. Well, then that's not a
18:45problem. Okay. Let's say people Let's
18:47see tons of people listen to it, which I
18:49don't know how that magically happens,
18:50but let's say tons of people listen to
18:51it and they all hate it. Okay.
18:55Immediately you have this anxiety that
18:56No, no, but but let's play it out. Like,
18:58what's happens next? It's like, okay, is
19:01it going to change what I eat? Is it
19:02going to change where I sleep? Okay,
19:04let's say let's say I all of a sudden I
19:06lose all the money that I have. It's
19:07like, okay, well, I probably have a
19:08bunch of people that if I really needed
19:10to sleep on their couch or in a spare
19:11bedroom, I could do that. Okay, so I'm
19:13not really going to be homeless. And if
19:15I really didn't have enough money for
19:16food, I can go to a homeless shelter and
19:17get food, right? So, it's like, wait, so
19:19my worst case scenario is like I have
19:22shelter and I have food and I'm still
19:24breathing air. So, that's the downside.
19:27And so, there's this catastrophizing
19:29that we cuz we our brains are meant to
19:31are meant to keep us alive. We literally
19:33think if we fail, we
19:34die. Like everyone will will ostracize
19:37us from the group and we will be alone
19:39and die. And so just actually playing it
19:42out, not one step, but like two more
19:43steps after that, you're like, "Okay, so
19:45my actual downside risk is nothing, but
19:48my upside is everything I've wanted. And
19:52even if I even if I'm at 50% off on
19:54that, it's still worth the shot." In
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20:51i v o m nt o
20:54us.com/modernwisdom and modern wisdom at
20:57checkout. Have you heard Ferrris's idea?
20:59The world rewards the specific ask and
21:01punishes the vague wish.
21:03I like it.
21:05Very ferris. And it's it's getting it's
21:07getting to this point here which is fear
21:10exists in the vague and it exists in the
21:11resistance. Going back to the single
21:13greatest skill you can develop is the
21:14ability to stay in a great mood in the
21:16absence of things to be in a great mood
21:17about.
21:19There's again I think it's fantastic in
21:22theory. I wonder how much it works in
21:23practice. Both of us everybody would
21:25love to be in a great mood for no
21:26reason. Um so I guess you can perhaps
21:31try and cultivate I can try and be
21:33positive when there's nothing to be
21:35positive about. I would say that the
21:38other neurobiologically informed
21:40solution to this is to find increasingly
21:42small things to be increasingly happy
21:44about. M. So, huh, that was a really
21:47good training session. Yeah, look, you
21:49know, it was annoying because half of
21:51the gym's under construction and I got
21:53some dust on my shoes. Yeah. But, huh,
21:56that was a good session. I really
21:57enjoyed that. Um, Rick Hansen who wrote
22:00hardwiring happiness is 20 25 years old.
22:02Um, hardcore uh neuroscience guy, dharma
22:06teacher, meditation expert, life person.
22:08awesome intersection all. And,
22:11um, he has this wonderful acronym of
22:13heal. have a positive experience. Mhm.
22:18Enrich it. And by enrich it, he means
22:20sort of sit with it. So you allow it to
22:22you actually notice it. Absorb, which is
22:25uh imagine that sinking down and
22:27becoming a part of you. Uh and then the
22:30L is optional, which is link. So you can
22:31link it to a bad experience. And you can
22:33oscillate between the two to help bring
22:35down the the um volume of a a bad
22:38experience. So right now there's nothing
22:41else I want to be doing right now than
22:42having this conversation, having a good
22:44experience. Huh? But that just washes by
22:46you and then you think in retrospect, oh
22:49wasn't that that was like a good thing
22:50at the time, but you don't ever actually
22:52arrive at having a good experience. So
22:54the enriched bit's important. So I'm
22:56like, huh, this is cool. Like I'm
22:58enjoying having this conversation.
23:00absorb. Imagining it sinking down and
23:01becoming a part of you, which is
23:02basically spending 30 seconds to a
23:04minute, letting it letting that emotion
23:06sort of fill you out as opposed to
23:08noticing it cognitively like allowing it
23:10to go below the neck would be a good way
23:12to put it. Okay, this is going to go
23:13below the neck. This sensation go, huh?
23:14Mhm. I'm actually like people are going
23:17to watch this and and it's going to make
23:18them happy. It's going to give them
23:20insights about their life. And isn't
23:21that lovely? It's the most obvious
23:24thing, which is I mean this is a pretty
23:25grand thing as things go. It's certainly
23:26more grand than like I had a
23:29nice coffee or something like that. Um,
23:31so I wonder whether one of the skills
23:33that you can develop in the pursuit of
23:35becoming a person that's in a great mood
23:37in the absence of things to be in a
23:39great mood about is to become
23:40increasingly proficient at finding
23:42things to be in a great mood about. And
23:44I'm aware that in your frame that still
23:48makes it contingent on external which is
23:50going to be an issue. I'm still happy to
23:51be in a good mood when there is things
23:52to be a good mood about. For sure. if
23:54you can become increasingly skilled at
23:56finding things to be in a good mood
23:57about, I get the sense, especially if
24:00life's kicking you in the dick, which
24:01it's done to both of us for the last
24:03while. Um, and I also think that it's a
24:08an
24:09interesting comment realization from
24:12you, uh, given that you've been kicked
24:14in the dick because you think, huh, this
24:17is an insight that you will only learn
24:20when things
24:21aren't ostensibly going well. Yeah.
24:25because it's the sort of realization
24:27that you get when inertia and momentum
24:30and bravado and confidence and and uh uh
24:33upward trajectory are all taken away
24:36from you and you go ah I'm like I'm
24:39having to do the budgeting equivalent
24:41like the the mental equivalent of living
24:43on pennies from a well-being
24:46perspective.
24:48I want to say we talked about this four
24:50podcasts ago, this specific thing which
24:53was
24:54that I have this maybe it's sadistic is
24:58probably is the right word but like I do
24:59take some sadistic
25:01pleasure in or masochist I don't
25:04remember the word is but when you when
25:05you enjoy your own pain
25:07um whenever I have these prolonged
25:11moments of suffering that kind of break
25:12past what I would consider the normal
25:14variance of life right it's like no this
25:17broke through the barrier of shitty um I
25:21do have this history of having
25:23significantly larger improvements that
25:26happen post dip, right? So it's like we
25:30kind of get the opportunity to buy the
25:31dip uh for our own negative consequences
25:36and I've I've bought the dip at almost
25:39every time and it's rewarded me
25:42disproportionately. And
25:44so I I hate to make make a make a
25:47parallel between like the economy or the
25:49stock market and and your own internal
25:50happiness, but I think I think that's
25:52what's happening right now. Um but that
25:55that that thought process has has
25:58shortened some of the the the shittiness
26:00that happens because then it's like,
26:02okay, well it has to it has to be worth
26:04it, right? I have to make this worth it,
26:06right? Because I'm this this sucks. So
26:08what what can I learn from this? What
26:09can I be better from this as a result?
26:10And so like obviously there's things
26:12that I've been working on in order in
26:13order to improve. But um beyond that uh
26:17I because gratitude has been so
26:19difficult for me which I've I've talked
26:20about before like I never I've never
26:22once said I am the the champion of
26:24happiness but in an effort to try and
26:26make it easier for me I was like well
26:28how do you how do you how do you
26:29operationalize gratitude right and so
26:32the simplest way that I have is imagine
26:34something
26:36terrible and then remember that that has
26:38not happened like it's like I I've yet
26:41to find like that has been the the
26:43simplest way like be grateful. It's like
26:45what do I do to be grateful? Yeah. Like
26:47no no no like that more. And it's like
26:49that that it's like it's been difficult.
26:51So it's like okay um and the on the flip
26:53side imagine something that you love.
26:55Imagine it's gone and then remember that
26:57it's back again. And so that's I think
26:59the operationalizing of those moments
27:01which is I have this coffee moment man
27:03if I never had another coffee moment
27:04like this again. This would mean more to
27:06me. Okay. And by doing that and by
27:08remembering what it would be like to not
27:09have this then this thing now in the
27:11moment becomes worth more. And so it's
27:14basically creating a wider discrepancy
27:16between the moment we're trying to find
27:17gratitude with and something else in
27:20order to basically manufacture a delta
27:23because I think that that to to your
27:25point like we're so much more sensitive
27:26to the negative delta than we are on the
27:28positive delta that we have to make the
27:29positive delta massive. And so how do
27:32you make moments massive? It's like well
27:33then we just have to drop the floor out
27:35and then remember that now all of a
27:37sudden we went from the bottom of the
27:38pool back to the surface even though
27:39we're not above the water. It's like
27:40playing uh pretend. So I'm 100% playing
27:43pretend. All gratitude is is playing
27:44pretend.
27:46I mean, sure. I think if something
27:48happens and you're grateful for it,
27:50that's you enriching something that
27:52exists. But what we're doing, what is
27:53enriching, mate? Uh, really noticing it
27:57because things that you should be
27:59grateful for will often pass you by
28:01without you noticing them. So, we notice
28:03them originally and then we notice them.
28:06Do you notice them? Oh, I know. I have
28:08to remember to be grateful and then I
28:09have to go look for Yeah. But even
28:11as it happens, right, and this is the
28:12point, as it happens, I'm here. We I
28:15went to Rufus Doul at um uh Q2 Stadium
28:18in Austin, which is where the the
28:20football club plays. And Rufus Doul,
28:24great music, real cool, and with a ton
28:26of my best friends. Um it's finishing at
28:29a time that's not insane. You know, it
28:31the weather was lovely by 6. Yeah. Yeah,
28:33I was in I was in bed by 7:30. Um but it
28:36wasn't that loud. The sound wasn't that
28:38good. Okay. What? Everybody was like,
28:40"Wish it was louder. Wish it was
28:42louder." Because it wasn't. We were at
28:43the very back of the stadium. Beautiful
28:45view, but not fantastic for sound. You
28:47go, "Dude, you're watching Rufus
28:49to Soul in a stadium with your friends
28:51in Austin. Weather's great. Everyone's
28:53got a a beer or a sparkling water in
28:55their hand having a great time." Just
28:57this is something that you can notice in
29:00the moment. You have Pick your
29:02direction, Western Man. Yeah. And you
29:04are picking the sound's not good. Yeah.
29:06But in your business, you are rewarded
29:11over and over and over again for
29:12realizing that the sound's not good.
29:14This can I've done this before. Uh, are
29:17you zoomed? Can you do this? So, if you
29:20look very very closely here, I might
29:22even have to get out the way for the
29:23light. The alignment of the Instagram
29:26logo with the F from follow us here and
29:30the N from Newtonic below is out of
29:32alignment by what looks like one point.
29:36It's less than a millimeter. Guess who
29:38noticed? This guy. Uh I have been
29:42rewarded throughout my entire
29:43professional career for noticing things
29:45that other people didn't and then
29:47claiming that they were sufficiently big
29:49issue that we should actually change
29:50them. Yeah. Reverse gratitude.
29:53like and this is a small thing. It is
29:56now a big problem. It's a massive it's a
29:57massive problem because you win in the
29:59weeds. Yeah. But you don't win in the
30:01weeds when it comes to happiness unless
30:03you are doing it in the other direction.
30:05Right. So you need to and this is so hot
30:07and this is this is why we enjoy talking
30:09about just for everyone who's listening.
30:11Um Chris and I had a conversation prior
30:13to this being like what are we what are
30:14you thinking about right now? And so
30:16we're both actually like in the same
30:18vein of thought which is why both of us
30:19were looking forward to having this you
30:21know conversation with you guys um about
30:24this this difficulty because one of the
30:25other things that's come up with regards
30:26to to gratitude and happiness has been
30:29there's a second conversation I think
30:31happens internally at least for me which
30:33is that like I will judge myself on
30:35being not as happy as I should be or not
30:37like hey I didn't notice anything I'd be
30:39grateful about you
30:41right and so trying to separate the
30:45fact that I like to take this to the
30:48absolute extreme why should I be
30:50grateful why should I be happy why do I
30:52demand of my life that it must be happy
30:55like that I must be happy during it
30:57that's a demand and so I try to decrease
31:00my demands in general as a habit you
31:01know as a personal practice and so I've
31:03been thinking about that that concept in
31:04of itself because the very early the
31:06earliest part of my career I just was
31:09done with happiness I was like screw it
31:10yeah it's just like it's irrelevant and
31:11so now I'm getting to the point where
31:12like well it'd be it would be nice
31:15uh to also have this while I have I'm
31:17aware that this is a very sort of basic
31:19insight, but I do think that given
31:22the starting point that you were at and
31:23to a lesser degree, the starting point I
31:25was at is like a homosy light uh like
31:27lifestyle approach. Um that's a that's a
31:31big deal to make this pivot and I think
31:33it's one of the reasons I was
31:34particularly interested in in talking to
31:35you today
31:36because I would say the last, you know,
31:40three years or so since we've been
31:41recording together. Yeah. From
31:44a architecture perspective, it's largely
31:47been the same. Yeah. That uh it doesn't
31:49matter how you feel. Uh the hard work
31:52just needs doing. Hard things are hard.
31:53That's why they're hard. And and
31:55disregard the emotions that getting in
31:56the way of it. And I do think that that
32:00works for a for a good while and it can
32:02really propel you to great things. But I
32:04also think that sometimes stuff you have
32:08such a orthogonal change in the way that
32:10your life's put together where you
32:12go, I might have exhausted this fuel
32:15source. I might need to switch from
32:16booster rockets to something else. And
32:19um yeah, you've got, as you said earlier
32:22on about how you you take small bad
32:25moments, maybe very impressive bad
32:27moments, and then you scale them out.
32:29Yeah. You're not having a bad year.
32:32you've had a few bad days that you're
32:33thinking about for the rest of the year.
32:35I've found it helpful when I'm in a bad
32:37season, like I'm in right now, to just
32:39focus on having a good day. A good day
32:42and a bad season is a bite-sized
32:43victory. String a few of those in a row,
32:46and a bad season feels less hard. I'm
32:48pretty sure the difference between a
32:50happy life and an unhappy one doesn't
32:52come down to how many good or bad days
32:54you have, but which days you think about
32:56over and over again. In some seasons of
32:58life, maintaining is winning.
33:03Couldn't have put it better
33:06myself.
33:09Um, this has been the this has been my
33:12my big focus right now is um and I'm not
33:16the first person to say this, but just
33:17winning the day. Um, and Bill Aman had
33:20this uh I heard him on a podcast talking
33:22about this hard season where he was
33:23getting divorced. He just lost $4
33:25billion in Perishing Square, his
33:27investment firm. And he was not him
33:29today. He was earlier on his career. So,
33:30I mean, it was just the worst. And
33:32because he had lost his money, the
33:33divorce was for way more money because
33:35it was based on his net worth that
33:36didn't exist anymore and was just a
33:38terrible slog. And he said one of the
33:40difficult parts about that period is
33:41that there was no one thing that was
33:44like, "Oh, I can tackle this today."
33:46Like, you're not going to finish the
33:47divorce today. You're not going to undo
33:48the $4 billion loss today. And so, it's
33:51like when you have these larger, more
33:52complex negative things that do scale,
33:55it's like how do you how do you how do
33:57you navigate through that? And for
33:58anyone who's listening right now, it's
33:59like maybe it's the bad breakup. Maybe
34:00it's the or maybe you're getting
34:02divorced, right? Or maybe it's like the
34:03business isn't working the way you want.
34:04It's like and there's like 10 things
34:06that you have to fix. And it's like,
34:08well, I can't fix that change in the in
34:09the logo until the next run. So, I just
34:11have to see this every single day. And
34:13so, he he had this very tactical advice
34:15which I liked a lot, which is he just
34:17tried to make progress and that was it.
34:20And he said, you know, in a day you it's
34:22almost it's almost negligible, right?
34:24But at 30 days, you're like, "Okay, I
34:26moved this." And at 90, you're like,
34:27"Wow, you know, this this is really this
34:30has really materially changed um in
34:32what's happened." Now, does this mean
34:33that we're our mood is still being
34:34dictated by circumstance? Yes, I'll be
34:37honest. Yes, it does. But I think I
34:41think many of us have this ideal. We'd
34:43love to be able to great be in a great
34:45mood with in the absence of things to be
34:46in a great mood about. But sometimes
34:49progress is the W. like maintaining in
34:52some seasons is winning. And I've had to
34:54tell myself that also that we can have
34:57these different like on the on business
34:59factor I'm murdering it. I'm crushing
35:01there. But like I had I tore my quad
35:04this year uh which sucked. I had a uh
35:07yeah painful. Um I have a a neck thing
35:10that's just been bugging the hell out of
35:11me. Right. So it's like and I have two
35:12great fears in life. One is that I lose
35:14my mind which is really just more that
35:15I'll be a burden to everybody else. I
35:16won't know cuz my mind will be lost.
35:17Right. Um and the other is chronic pain.
35:19Those are like my two great fears in
35:21life because chronic pain is really
35:22tough. Like the first thing you think
35:24about when you open your eyes in the
35:25morning is pain and it's like It's
35:29like and now I have to be in a good
35:30mood, right? Because I demand this of
35:32myself. And so um when in in navigating
35:35those those scenarios um just trying to
35:39chip away and also take the reverse of I
35:42had this one great podcast today. I'm
35:44going to make that thing the thing
35:46that's making this a great day. And then
35:48if I can make that great day, then maybe
35:49it could be a great week. And then
35:51trying to expand those basically like
35:54let those good moments eat up the
35:56season. And I made a conscious decision
35:58on May 1st. And I think I did I send you
36:00the the screenshot of my HRV. Yes. So I
36:03It was May 1st. I was
36:05like, "Fuck this." I was like, I told
36:09Laya, I was like, "I have decreed that
36:10the rest of the year will be good." And
36:12so I'm putting so much mental effort
36:13into this, which is why this is so
36:15timely from from the from us talking
36:16about it. um in actively trying to
36:20minimize all the down things and super
36:22super focus on those moments and be like
36:25cool I had that good moment that's my
36:26day's made and I'm trying to even say
36:29that more like oh this podcast made my
36:32day this podcast made my week now I used
36:34to think oh this made my week when
36:36someone would say something small I'd be
36:38like that's what made your week like you
36:41must not have a lot going on so true
36:42right like ment like my own judge judge
36:45machine right that's lame Yeah. Stupid
36:48thing. Oh my god. How feeble, how small
36:52is your life that something so
36:54unimpressive is a source of gratitude to
36:56you for a week or and yet. And yet,
36:59yeah, your life is made up of small days
37:01like this. That is what life is. And if
37:05your expectation of life is that it's
37:08going to be, well, until I play the main
37:10stage at EDC, until I make the billion
37:13dollars, until I get married to the love
37:15of my life, until I get these things,
37:17you're just holding your happiness
37:19hostage, until something great happens.
37:21And what if, again, what we said before,
37:24what if something small could be
37:25something great? Yeah.
37:29And it's been and it exists in the
37:32specific those like the tiny moments and
37:36that yeah that's that's been that's
37:37victories boring boring victories. Um
37:40but but making trying to make it
37:42basically I've had to recalibrate my
37:44entire scale to how little of a thing
37:47can happen that makes my day. How little
37:49of a thing can happen that makes my
37:50week. How little of a thing can make can
37:51make my month. And like how crazy would
37:54it be if a year from now I say 2025 was
37:58a great year. You know I woke up
38:03painfree for for probably like 70% of my
38:07days. That was a great year. Like I got
38:10to have coffee with Ila in the morning
38:13once a week and that that filled me up
38:16for the whole week. Like if I can and I
38:18want to I I'm this I'm putting so anyone
38:20who's listening this like I'm putting a
38:22huge amount of my discretionary effort
38:23into this because it's my belief that
38:26right now what will what will prevent me
38:28from achieving my ultimate goals cuz
38:30that that is not gone. Um
38:33um the thing that will achieve that will
38:35stop me from achieving my ultimate goals
38:37is um running out of steam because and
38:41and this may not be real for some people
38:43but like I don't need to do this. like I
38:46don't need to work this hard. Um, and so
38:50I have
38:51to make or I'd like to I'd prefer to
38:54make the ride more
38:57enjoyable. We'll get back to talking to
38:59Alex in just one second. But first, I
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40:18That's a huge departure. I think prefer
40:21I will still I will still ride
40:23at dawn. That's a huge departure though.
40:25And look, dude, you know,
40:26I the conversation that we had the other
40:29week and I think the one that we're
40:31having now, it might
40:34be
40:35less Gogggins
40:38Jo screaming alpha motivation
40:42sleep token track over the top of it
40:44edit thing.
40:47However, uh, one of the things that I've
40:50noticed when seeing somebody that goes
40:53from a position like the one that you
40:55were in or the light equivalent that I
40:57was to talking in this sort of a way,
40:59there's an awful lot more humanity. I
41:01think that people can see in that
41:02because work until your eyes bleed.
41:05Nobody cares about your emotions.
41:07you, dude. Just go harder. Um, although
41:10it sounds fantastic in theory, it's very
41:11impersonal and it sounds it sounds
41:14mechanistic. It sounds robotic. It
41:15sounds detached and that's fantastic and
41:17you can do that for a while. You can
41:20completely disregard the way that you
41:21feel for a while. Yeah. But only for a
41:24while and sooner or later the entropy of
41:29positive affect being a motivator. The
41:32fact that enjoyment is efficiency Mhm.
41:36does tend to catch up with you and it'll
41:38catch up with you in sneaky ways. Yeah.
41:41Right. The quad tear, who knows? And I'm
41:43completely open to this. Who knows
41:45whether the quad would have happened if
41:49the book had been finished in twice as
41:51long. Yeah. You know, your system sort
41:55of contributes to itself in a global
41:58sort of stress-based manner.
42:02It's, you know what's weird is that the
42:05thing that's made the season hard is not
42:08actually like work ethic or even time
42:09constraints because like I work pretty
42:11much every day all day, but like that
42:12that's that's been baseline and that
42:14doesn't really bother me like I don't
42:15bother very much. I like doing that. The
42:17thing is that the nature of what fills
42:18that time and so like if I have all the
42:21things that are not work that are
42:22related to work that I must do as a
42:24result so that I can get back to doing
42:25the work I like doing. like me writing a
42:27book is the is the most fulfill like is
42:30my favorite thing in the entire world.
42:31Us doing these podcasts is some of the
42:33best moments that I get to have in my
42:35life. Um uh like twice a month I'll have
42:39uh business owners who come out that are
42:41bigger that were that are like kind of
42:43like not portfolio ready but like
42:44they're they're doing usually like you
42:46know five to you know $25 million a year
42:48like right in that range. And I get to I
42:50spent a whole day with those 10
42:52businesses and it's like and I tell them
42:54I'm like this is the best. Like
42:57I love this. This is my favorite thing
42:59in my entire life. Um but it's it's
43:02everything that's not that. Uh and Basos
43:04talks about the overhead, right? And I
43:06think it's when the overhead starts to
43:07become a disproportionate amount of your
43:09of your time. And I think that at every
43:11level of at least entrepreneurship, I
43:13get these periods where the overhead
43:15just becomes bigger and bigger and
43:17bigger until I fix it, right? Right. And
43:19so like for us, I had I think I I told
43:21you I'll tell everybody publicly like I
43:23had I think eight or nine lawsuits
43:25within um like 30 days at the beginning
43:29of this year. And so I was like, "Okay,
43:32that sucked." And then I'll tell you the
43:34story that happened on top of this just
43:36to give everyone some context. Um Ila
43:38had a health thing. She went to the
43:40doctor to get it checked out and uh Rea
43:43was with her and uh I was like, "Hey,
43:46you know, how's it going? what's going
43:48on? Um, and she had said earlier like
43:51she can't get in. I was like, what? What
43:52does that even mean? And then and then
43:54the next text I got from the EA was she
43:57has cancer. And so I remember reading
43:59that text and being
44:01like, okay, uh, all right. This is
44:05reality now. Uh, like this is now the
44:07new frame. And I sat with it just long
44:09enough to enrich and absorb that
44:12concept. Sick. Yeah. And so then I was
44:15like, all right. And so I'm thinking,
44:16okay, like chemo, like what do we need
44:18to do diet? Why? Like I'm already
44:20thinking through this stuff and I was
44:21like, okay, what kind of cancer is it?
44:22What state? Like that's what I'm I'm
44:23going with this. So I asked for more
44:25details and she was like, oh my god, no.
44:27The reason that it was delayed was
44:28because the front desk girl has cancer
44:30and she just messed something up and
44:31that was what she was using as her
44:32excuse. Laya doesn't have cancer. And I
44:34was like, oh, she does have this other
44:36stuff, right? But she doesn't have
44:37cancer. And the the thing is is that Ila
44:40after that occurred when I hung out with
44:42her later that night um was, you know,
44:44obviously annoyed at whatever issue she
44:46was dealing with. But for me, I was
44:48like, I saw her and I just gave her this
44:50big hug and I was like, "Hey." I was
44:52like, "You don't have
44:54cancer." And so it's crazy. There's the
44:56exact example of gratitude. This
44:58terrible thing. And just kidding, it's
45:00not a thing anymore. And now I'm really
45:02grateful that you have the terrible
45:03thing that you have now. At least it's
45:05not cancer. And so, um, to bring this
45:08back, that all still happened in the
45:10same period of time. Um, and Chris
45:13mentioned this earlier, uh, I don't know
45:14if this before the spot, but like I, uh,
45:16I, there was a, there was a mishap with
45:19printing, um, my next book that's coming
45:21out. And, um, the equivalent of one and
45:25a half acres of trees um, basically
45:28became unusable because there were
45:30sufficient errors in the book that I I
45:32couldn't in good EV, you know, in good
45:34conscious kind of like the can. And it's
45:36like how bad of a mess up does the does
45:38it have to be on the can for me not to
45:40sell it, right? And like I had to have
45:41this internal I was like maybe I could
45:42make it a thing like hey our our books
45:44had some mess ups and we're and I was
45:46like no one's going to care. No one's
45:48going to care. They're just going to
45:50remember that they got a up book.
45:52And so I had to destroy those, right?
45:54And so I I could I I have like seven
45:57more massive ones, but I'm not going to
45:58get into it. Um but the beauty of of
46:01this entire thing was I got to have this
46:04experience. um of being forced to say,
46:06"Okay, is there a world where I'm going
46:10to have to endure more of this?" And the
46:12answer to that if I continue to do what
46:14I'm doing is yes. And so I need to build
46:18a legal team, which is what I've now
46:20built. And I like and so there's these
46:22things and all of a sudden now am I
46:24better at gratitude or did I solve the
46:26problem? I don't know. I'd be like
46:27really like I I want to be real. I don't
46:29know. But as of May 1st, things are a
46:32little better. And my actual health, for
46:33anybody who's a health nut, my HRV
46:36average was about 32. Um, and I'd have
46:39many, many low 20s days for a
46:4136-year-old active male. Pretty bad. Um,
46:45and since May, like May 1st, uh, I'm I'm
46:49up like 15 points on my HRV. And I have
46:52changed nothing. Like I like I eat the
46:54same, I work out the same, I'm pretty
46:56routine oriented. The only thing that
46:58has changed was the decision that 2025
47:02I'm not I'm not I'm not tossing out 2025
47:04like and I started in the beginning of
47:05the year and I was talking to a good
47:06friend of mine and he was like dude
47:08bad year. He was like He's like
47:10stop saying that. And I was like
47:12you're right I should stop saying that.
47:13Uh it will be a handful of moments over
47:16five months that were spread out and
47:18then the back seven I was like I can
47:20murder it. Turn this around.
47:22Yeah. Exact. We're turning the ship
47:23around. Right. And so that's I've
47:25actually been like it's almost been like
47:26an exciting thing for me right now. So
47:28I'm I'm I have a little bit of a smile
47:30because I'm I'm pumped for it. Personal
47:32observation, you get absolutely better
47:35returns at the top ends of achievement
47:36because often times assets pull to the
47:38winners. The problem is to achieve the
47:41highest levels, you have to give up
47:43proportional amounts of the things you
47:44hoped the achievements would get you.
47:46There comes a time when the hard work
47:48you have to do is learning that you
47:50can't work any harder any longer and
47:52that you have to change what got you
47:53here to what will get you to where you
47:55want to go. You can work to get anything
47:57you want, but you have to sacrifice the
47:59other things you want to keep it. And
48:01that's sometimes harder than the work.
48:05Yeah. 2025
48:07in the day. Yeah. Um the the the hard
48:11remains the same. Actually, I've I've
48:13given this a huge amount of thought. So
48:16like what makes something hard like just
48:18in and of itself like what actually
48:19makes something hard and so if we think
48:20about this as an aversive stimulus or a
48:22negative stimulus then you have because
48:25habituation happens on both sides and
48:27this is what I think is so fascinating
48:28because it's like okay well you know I
48:30wanted this big thing to happen I wanted
48:31the Rolls-Royce I wanted the Ferrari
48:32whatever save my whole life and here I
48:33am right and I was happy for a week and
48:34then all of a sudden I got used to it
48:35right so I was like why can't I
48:37habituate to the suck right why can't I
48:41habituate to the suck and the thing is
48:42is that you do the only thing is that
48:45what makes the suck keep sucking is what
48:47makes punishment effective, which is
48:49increasing intensity and variety. And so
48:51if you want to effectively punish
48:52someone, you can't just keep punching in
48:53the same way. You have to increase
48:55intensity and change how you do it. And
48:57the beautiful thing is that life doesn't
48:59fight fair. And so life will change the
49:03intensity and will give you more
49:05variety. I mean, how many times you been
49:06like, I didn't know life could suck in
49:08this way.
49:09Like like this is a new one, you know,
49:12like wow. Like you spin the roulette of
49:14life and you're like, "Oh, here's
49:16another one that sucks. My dick was
49:17kicked from another angle." Yeah,
49:18exactly. Congratulations. Had no idea.
49:20And so, so in thinking about that, it
49:23was like, okay, I think the reason that
49:25the hard persists is because the nature
49:27of the currency that you pay or that you
49:29exchange for the thing that you want
49:30changes because in the very beginning,
49:32you basically have to like, you know,
49:35conquer your friends and family who tell
49:37you that this might be a bad idea. Okay,
49:39fine. You get over that. And then you
49:40have to conquer yourself into the most
49:42basic level of like I have to do
49:43something. Okay. So you start you start
49:44taking action. You start learning you
49:46start learning how to learn stuff which
49:47is learning through failure and learning
49:48through. So you start doing that and you
49:49realize you're not going to die if you
49:50fail. Okay. Then after that then it's
49:52like okay but then now you have this
49:54dramatic skill deficiency. Right? So you
49:56have to very quickly level up in a ton
49:57of different things um in whatever
49:59whatever domain you're in. Right? And
50:01then that that has many failure loops
50:03that have we have we have we habituated
50:06to failure? No. it's too it's too uh
50:09generalized. So the failures that that
50:11occur are specific and so it's just like
50:14oh I didn't know I could fail in this
50:15way, right? Like we had an event um so
50:19we we hold an event at our at at our
50:20headquarters uh like monthly and when
50:23people come out I remember it was like
50:25three times in a row there was this
50:27thing at the front desk that got messed
50:29up and I was like how like it was the
50:31can thing. I was like how
50:37how right and I swear to God they I got
50:40I got the message back and they said um
50:43well the system messed up in a different
50:45way this
50:47and I was like same issue new route
50:48exactly and I was like and it it
50:50happened three times in total and so it
50:52was the same problem three completely
50:54they're like well we fixed that version
50:56of the problem but then this one came up
50:57and so it's like it still sucked and so
50:59the thing is is that I think failure is
51:01our our habituation to failure is so
51:04narrow that every new type of failure
51:06there. All three of those hurt. Micro
51:08novelty. Yes. And so um and so when I
51:10think about that is like when like my
51:13like I said this year financially has
51:15been the best year of my life, right?
51:17And so that's been awesome. Um but I've
51:20had all of these I mean I've had uh I've
51:22had health stuff le health health stuff
51:24that was separate. We had legal things
51:26which is another another whole thing.
51:27Business stuff, book stuff. Yeah,
51:28there's Yeah, there's the book and then
51:30there's stacking stuff. Yeah, there's a
51:31lot of things. Um, and so all of those
51:33things happened and I was like, oh, I
51:35was like, so it's just that the currency
51:38has changed, the currency that I'm
51:40paying. And so I'm very happy to pay the
51:42long hours currency. I'm very happy to
51:44pay the what am I willing to give up in
51:46terms of social life. Like that to me,
51:48I've habituated to that price. That's
51:50not hard for me. I I don't even consider
51:51it a sacrifice anymore, which is I think
51:53what you want because people people will
51:55sometime maybe see you or maybe they'll
51:57see me and think of like the Gogggins uh
51:59you know, work until your eyes blade.
52:01thing is is that like and maybe maybe I
52:04don't know Gogggins but well I'll just
52:05speak for
52:06myself I don't I don't really push that
52:10hard like I don't really push I do it
52:12and I've already habituated to this like
52:13this is not this is not an excess for me
52:15pushed in the initial to get up to the
52:17moment and now yeah and I I like we
52:20worked so I had my whole team in a in a
52:22boardroom at the very beginning you saw
52:24my my timer so I have a timer that's
52:27well on my phone it has like 22 and a
52:29half hours on it and so What I've been
52:31doing is I've been challenging the team
52:32to they wanted to do a 12-week project
52:34and I said, "Hey, can we do it in seven
52:35days, right?" And not only are we going
52:36to do it in seven days, we're going to
52:37actually see how many actual hours does
52:39it take of us working together to get
52:41this done. And my hope is that we get
52:42the whole thing done in under 50 hours
52:44with eight guys. And so I'm like, "Okay,
52:46so we can shrink what was once going to
52:47be 3 months into this period of time."
52:49And so over the last two days, we just
52:50did this and I'm going to do it again
52:51tomorrow. um is that everyone was
52:54starting to work at 7 and continued
52:57didn't really leave the boardroom except
52:58for like to use the restroom until about
53:009:00 at night. And so you're talking 12
53:0314 hour days but like on the whole time
53:06and the thing is and this is what's this
53:08is what's crazy every single guy who was
53:10in that room texted me afterwards was
53:12like that was awesome like I
53:14wish we could work like this all the
53:15time. And so like I don't think like we
53:18talk about work and what makes work hard
53:20and all these things, but
53:21like most of the things once you learn
53:24how to work, the work itself is
53:26self-reinforcing and you enjoy it. It's
53:28everything else that you didn't know you
53:30were going to have to sacrifice so that
53:32you could get back to working. And so
53:35that's that's where I've had to really
53:38consider this uh Bulgarian method
53:41approach. So, we talked about um a
53:44powerlifter friend of yours who like he
53:46went to go train with the best coach of
53:47all time. And so, there's the Bulgarian
53:49system, which is the same thing uh in
53:51Bulgaria. This tiny little nation
53:53disproportionately out competes in
53:54Olympic lifting. And the way that they
53:56do it is they have a system which
53:57basically just breaks everyone who does
53:59it except for the one person who can
54:00sustain it and he becomes champion. And
54:02so I actually see business unfortunately
54:05or fortunately very similar in a lot of
54:08ways which is that the path the uh the
54:11science of achievement is fairly
54:13straightforward right like you have to
54:15pursue high leverage opportunities and
54:17that is the working smart and then if
54:19everyone is working smart then the only
54:20thing left that you have to compete is
54:22working hard right because people say
54:23work smart not hard only works when you
54:25compete against dumb
54:26people like my competition is smart and
54:30they're also working hard and so we both
54:31have to work hard. And so, um, that
54:34price though is has been something that
54:36I've been staring at, um, for myself
54:38because I've never had the aspiration of
54:40being number one. I for at least for me,
54:42it's not in my DNA. I haven't had that
54:44desire to be the richest man in the
54:45world. Not something I care about. And
54:47so then it's it's getting into, okay,
54:49what's the sweet spot that maximizes
54:51enough where I can actually start
54:53looking at some of these other
54:54preferences that I have and say, you
54:55know what, I am no longer willing to
54:57make that trade. And the the other part
54:59of me, we talked about lame earlier,
55:01like oh, the coffee, you know, made your
55:03week. Mhm. To the same degree. Um, oh,
55:08like this is enough for you. Yeah. And
55:10I've actually had a very, I would say
55:12disdainful almost take when I would hear
55:14somebody
55:15who, okay, I well, take this. Fine. I'll
55:18take take this whatever you want. Um,
55:20you know, someone gets to a few million
55:22dollars a year and they're like, that's
55:24it. you know, I made it and I and and I
55:27have to fight against this is what I'm
55:28working on. Um I see that and I'm like
55:31out of the game. Like he's out. He's
55:33out. Yeah. Done. Like just quit too
55:36soon. Yeah. Yeah. Like there's so much
55:38so much juice left to squeeze, right?
55:40But then it's like well the the thing is
55:42is that the the juice that that comes
55:44out is your output and the thing that's
55:46being squeezed is
55:48you. And so that's what I've been
55:49thinking a lot about. Look at that
55:51person. Yeah. who gets to however much a
55:54year. 50 grand, 100 grand, a million, 2
55:57million, 10 million. And they go,
55:59"That's enough." Yeah. Who won of Yeah.
56:03Because that person finished their race
56:06way before you. Way before you. You're
56:09the You're the that's
56:10still running. Let me tell you this
56:12story. So, my first gym ever, I had my
56:15first manager who worked there. Um, and
56:17he was a trainer. He was awesome. Best
56:19trainer I ever had. and I promoted him
56:22to manager. And with that pay raise, um,
56:24he went from something in the
56:25neighborhood of like $25,000 a year as a
56:27trainer, uh, paid by session to getting
56:29a salary of like $45,000 a year, which
56:31for me was a ton of money at the time
56:32when I was paying somebody else, right?
56:34And uh, he did it for 6 months, crushed
56:37it, did an amazing job, and he said,
56:39"Hey man, can I talk to you after work
56:40today?" I was like, "Yeah, sure, man.
56:42What's up?" Like you're like, "You're
56:43doing great, whatever." He says, "Um,
56:45hey, I um I don't I don't want to be I
56:47don't want to be manager anymore." And I
56:49was like, "What do you mean you're
56:51you're quitting?" He's like, "No, no,
56:52no. I I just I just want to be a
56:54trainer." And I was
56:55like, "But I mean, but you realize your
56:58your pay would get cut in half. Like
57:00that like that doesn't really make
57:02sense." And he just looked at me and I
57:03still I remember this to this day. He
57:04looked at me, he's like, "I'll just be
57:06poor
57:07then." And I and I it was like it was
57:10like it was like a it was it was like a
57:12bomb dead. I was like And I looked at
57:15and I was I was literally speechless.
57:16And I just
57:18said, I respect it, but I will never
57:21understand
57:22it. And the thing is is that he is to
57:25this day, I got to see him 10. I got to
57:28see him three weeks ago, first time in
57:30like 10
57:31years. He was then the happiest person I
57:34ever met. And today or when I just saw
57:37him, just as happy. And he's like,
57:40"Dude, I mean, I can't can you believe
57:41that we were starting that gym and you
57:42were at the floor?" And you know, we're
57:44cing some of those old stories. He's
57:45like, "Look what you have, man. all this
57:46stuff and I was like, "Dude, you won."
57:49Like, I'm still trying to catch up to
57:51you. And that was uh a lot of the
57:53conversation that we had. A quick aside,
57:55if you've been feeling a bit sluggish,
57:57your testosterone levels might be the
57:58problem. They play a huge role in your
58:00energy, focus, and performance. But most
58:02people have no idea where those are or
58:05what to do if something's off, which is
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58:51heading to
58:53functionhealth.com/modernwisdom. That's
58:56functionhealth.com/modern wisdom. The
58:58problem is to achieve the highest
58:59levels, you have to give up proportional
59:01amounts of the things you hope the
59:03achievements would get you. Yeah. What's
59:05that?
59:10I'll give a micro example of a sacrifice
59:11that I've chosen to reverse, which is
59:14that I love training. I love working
59:15out. I've been I've been doing it. It
59:17was it was my first love, the first
59:18thing I ever liked, like really got
59:20obsessed with. And over probably the
59:22last, you know, however many years, I
59:24still obviously trained. I was still,
59:25you know, in shape. But my training was,
59:28you know, sometimes two days a week,
59:29sometimes three days a week. It would
59:31be, you know, 60 minutes, maybe 90 if I
59:33got lucky. Um, and I had this
59:35realization. And it was during this
59:36year, 2025, where I was like, you
59:39know, I have all this money and
59:42I can do whatever I want. And I was
59:43like, and I can't even have my workout
59:45be as long as I want it to be. And so I
59:49basically made a rule for myself that I
59:50will not work out if I am rushed. That's
59:53the deal. And so I will work out for as
59:56long as it takes to work out and that's
59:58that. And so that means that if my
1:00:00workout takes two hours or it takes two
1:00:01and a half hours or I'm with a friend
1:00:02and it takes three hours because we're
1:00:03just like talking between sets and
1:00:04having a great time. There are three
1:00:06things in this world that bring me joy.
1:00:08Working out with somebody that I like,
1:00:09eating food with somebody that I like
1:00:11ideally after I worked out and writing.
1:00:13The three things that bring me the most
1:00:15joy in life. And I was like, why am I
1:00:17sacrificing one of the only three things
1:00:19in this world that I know that I enjoy
1:00:22to get something that I hoped would buy
1:00:25me the freedom to work out as much as I
1:00:28wanted whenever I wanted. And so what
1:00:30are the things that I put on the altar
1:00:31of the success? What are the things that
1:00:32I sacrificed for this this god of
1:00:34achievement? And I was like, this one
1:00:36I'm not willing to sacrifice anymore.
1:00:37And so I think part of the reason that
1:00:39like has been a life a lifeboat for me
1:00:41or a life raft while this kind of worst
1:00:44season has happened is like I put on
1:00:45like 20 pounds of muscle so far this
1:00:48year because I've been able to like I've
1:00:50been using that as a really wonderful
1:00:52outlet and I was like man and I'm
1:00:54focusing more on this like my training
1:00:56partner every day I'm like dude thank
1:00:57you for doing this with me like this is
1:00:59this is awesome like this is great like
1:01:01my I won the day like if I did nothing
1:01:03else I get to the end of the day and I'm
1:01:04like I crushed this workout and that was
1:01:06and that's
1:01:09It's a big pivot, dude. And it's one
1:01:11that I
1:01:13think everybody that's driven by the
1:01:15sort
1:01:17of hatred of past self, whip yourself
1:01:20into submission, Puritan work ethic
1:01:23thing will inevitably come to realize
1:01:26after a time. There may be some outlier
1:01:29for whom their their capacity for
1:01:32discomfort and for sacrifice is
1:01:35literally greater than the duration of
1:01:36their life. Yeah. That they would have
1:01:38got there eventually. They just died
1:01:40first. Yeah. You know, and but I think
1:01:42that for most people it's not. And you
1:01:44reach I would call it something like
1:01:46sort of uh lifestyle escape velocity uh
1:01:49where you go I'm I all of the objective
1:01:52metrics are right and the subjective
1:01:54ones aren't. which is a good example uh
1:01:56of sort of what you've hinted at. And
1:01:58you
1:01:59go, how can I assume that the solution
1:02:03is fixing subjective metric problems
1:02:06with more objective metrics and and and
1:02:09then and and I'll say this for anybody
1:02:10who's in the season where like listen,
1:02:12you're 22 years old and you're like, I
1:02:13need to work my face off. You do. You
1:02:15need to you need to work your face off.
1:02:17But the thing is is like there will get
1:02:18to a point we're fast forwarding, you
1:02:20know, however many years, but there's
1:02:21nothing like I don't regret the amount
1:02:23of work that I've done. Um, and I and I
1:02:26I I don't regret it at all. And I think
1:02:27that it was absolutely the right
1:02:29decision. And I work a lot now.
1:02:32But people make this extrapolated
1:02:35moment. They take a moment of your life
1:02:37and they will extrapolate it to forever
1:02:39and assume that if you change your mind
1:02:42that what you did before this was wrong,
1:02:44but it wasn't wrong. it was right for
1:02:46that time and then we got feedback
1:02:48during a different time and this is
1:02:50right for me now and so I'm going to
1:02:51course correct now and if something else
1:02:53changes guess what you're free to change
1:02:55your mind tomorrow. Yeah. I I love this
1:02:59and I think about it so much
1:03:01that one of the issues with asking
1:03:05anybody who's successful for advice is
1:03:08that they tell you what they do now.
1:03:10Yeah. Not what they did when they were
1:03:11in your position. Thousand%. And you
1:03:14should not ask somebody how are you
1:03:17maintaining your success right now. How
1:03:19did you achieve your success when you
1:03:20were at the stage that I was at? That is
1:03:22the question that you need to ask.
1:03:24And it's the same thing.
1:03:27And stupid people see somebody changing
1:03:31their mind as a weakness, not as a
1:03:33strength.
1:03:34And if you are the sort of person who
1:03:37goes, "Huh, this strategy worked for me
1:03:40previously or didn't or I thought it
1:03:43worked for me and it
1:03:44didn't, I'm going to update the way that
1:03:46I operate." Perfect example. I've been
1:03:49on this sort of a flex similar to
1:03:51yourself. I would say my uh lifestyle
1:03:53escape velocity, I needed to reach a
1:03:54lower altitude than you. So, I was, you
1:03:56know, getting into coast uh as opposed
1:03:59to still using the booster rockets
1:04:00earlier. Um, but I started talking about
1:04:03how uh like purposeful
1:04:06deoptimization uh you know what is it
1:04:09that you're doing the things for?
1:04:10Transitioning from the work until your
1:04:12eyes bleed to a different mode of of
1:04:13reward and stuff like that. And some
1:04:15people that I think don't understand me
1:04:20super well, which is fine because no
1:04:21one's supposed to understand you,
1:04:22especially not random people on the
1:04:23internet, but people will see snippets
1:04:25of whatever's been sort of the most
1:04:27salient narrative. And uh a bunch of
1:04:29them said something to the effect of,
1:04:30"Uh, bro sold us the problem, now he's
1:04:32selling us the solution." Yeah. And I
1:04:34was like, "Huh, that's really
1:04:36interesting." Because what I'm doing is
1:04:38saying, "This works for me right now."
1:04:41And what I was saying in the past was
1:04:43this works for me right now. Nothing has
1:04:46changed. And this is why there's often
1:04:49when it comes to sort of internet
1:04:51advice, it's very patronizing the way
1:04:53that the audience is treated by people
1:04:55that are critics as if they're sort of
1:04:57these
1:04:59agencyless undiscerning sponges. Yeah.
1:05:02That are totally incapable of applying
1:05:05or filtering. Huh? Well, Alex doesn't
1:05:09have five kids and no wife,
1:05:13right? Like, I'm a single father, a five
1:05:15kid. What, you know, living in Brooklyn
1:05:16and a single bedroom. Okay, I I think
1:05:19you might need to adapt some of the
1:05:21things that he's saying or I'm twice as
1:05:23old or I'm half the age, whatever.
1:05:26Like, you should ask somebody what they
1:05:28did when they were at the stage that you
1:05:30were at, not where they are now.
1:05:33So many things I want to respond to. So
1:05:35number
1:05:36one, my my embedded command to everyone
1:05:42is use if useful. Use if useful. Number
1:05:46one. Number two, this is a documentary,
1:05:50not a sermon. This is a showing, you
1:05:53know, like at least my content is like
1:05:54this is me showing what's going on and I
1:05:57try to be real and that means that if I
1:05:59change my mind, then it'll change.
1:06:03Third, model the rise if you want the
1:06:06rise. Model the plateau if you want the
1:06:08plateau. And so saying, "Oh, you know,
1:06:12Warren Buffett says he had a great year
1:06:13if he only makes one good decision."
1:06:15It's like saying, "Oh, to get rich, I
1:06:17should fly
1:06:18private." Doesn't really work that way.
1:06:20I should play basketball. I want to get
1:06:22tall. It's your you're you're conflating
1:06:23variables, right? I should I should go
1:06:25to the gym once I have energy. I should
1:06:26start saving money once I'm rich. Uh
1:06:28like that's when I'll do it. It's just
1:06:29it just conflates sequence, right? It's
1:06:30a win-win fallacy. Um, and
1:06:35so I think the the man I I haven't
1:06:38talked about this in in I don't I don't
1:06:40even know if I ever talked about
1:06:43this. The greatest skill is the ability
1:06:47to discern what things to use and what
1:06:50things to cast out. It is the is it is
1:06:53the the the central narrative of noise
1:06:57versus signal. And the reason that I've
1:07:01spent such a disproportionate amount of
1:07:02time focused on behavior was because
1:07:05there's so much noise that if people
1:07:07cannot translate their quote advice into
1:07:10what I should do, then there's nothing
1:07:12useful about it. Which is why I think
1:07:13the density of useful information uh
1:07:16people I think people are blood hounds
1:07:17for value. Um, but I think that value
1:07:19gets translated
1:07:23most in the most crystallized,
1:07:25distilled, concentrated manner when it
1:07:27can be translated into do this instead
1:07:30of that. Period. And everything else,
1:07:33the amorphous words that people use,
1:07:34especially the, you know, the motivation
1:07:36manifesto, the the the or just
1:07:38manifestation, we'll get into that one.
1:07:40Uh, people get triggered on that. Um,
1:07:43that is what leads more people astray.
1:07:45And so they take the entirety of someone
1:07:48and without all of the other conditions
1:07:50that apply to that person and say, "Oh,
1:07:51I will take this and apply it to my
1:07:53life." And if you cannot pull out what
1:07:57is useful for
1:07:59you, you will never win. And that is a
1:08:02really strong statement, but because all
1:08:04you're going to be doing is trying to,
1:08:05and I love this is my favorite tweet
1:08:07that I've heard from um Andrew Wilkinson
1:08:09from Tiny.
1:08:12M here are the numbers for my winning
1:08:14lottery
1:08:16ticket. Every entrepreneur explaining
1:08:18how they were successful. And so like
1:08:22the next Google isn't a search engine,
1:08:24right? The best version of your life
1:08:26isn't copying Hormosi or copying
1:08:28Williamson. It's being able to with
1:08:32nuance apply the principles that are
1:08:37generalizable across domains but then
1:08:40having the
1:08:42wherewithal yeah the discernment to
1:08:45apply the nuance to your specific
1:08:47circumstance and being able to map those
1:08:50two things I think is the skill that has
1:08:53gotten me the disproportionate return on
1:08:55my life. I have bought and I've been
1:08:57public about this. I've been, you know,
1:08:59very the earlier part of my career is
1:09:01very involved in what I would consider
1:09:02the alternative education, you know,
1:09:03space, right? People, you know, the the
1:09:05courses, the the world that has, I would
1:09:07say, a relatively bad reputation. But I
1:09:11have yet in my life to have purchased
1:09:13anything from anyone that I have not had
1:09:15an exceptional return from. And is that
1:09:18because of them or is that because of
1:09:21me? Who knows? But I can say that when I
1:09:25even had bad experiences, I could say
1:09:28these are all the things that I will not
1:09:30do to a customer. And then I have my
1:09:32notebook of the the crinkled can and the
1:09:35end that's off the center. And that
1:09:38ability to
1:09:40observe and pause before immediately
1:09:43taking action. Like there are some
1:09:44people that I have met where I know I'll
1:09:46tell you this story because it's it's
1:09:48heartbreaking. I've helped a lot of gyms
1:09:50in my career is, you know, probably my
1:09:51second season of entrepreneurship. Um,
1:09:53one of the things that we'll do to a gym
1:09:55to make it more profitable is we, you
1:09:56know, we adjust pricing. Sometimes we
1:09:58write send a price raise letter and
1:09:59this, you know, this thing's tested. We
1:10:01that, we've done it hundreds of times. A
1:10:03guy, you know, reaches out and said,
1:10:05"Hey, I did your the whole price raise
1:10:08and 90% of my members left." And I was
1:10:11like, "What? Like what h like how what
1:10:15happened?" And so he explained that he
1:10:19had a $29 a month gym and then he raised
1:10:23it to $200 a
1:10:25month. That only works when you're a
1:10:28service business, not a what I consider
1:10:30a facility usage business where you're
1:10:32just like $10 a month crunch and it's
1:10:34just like you can use the gym whatever
1:10:35you want. You have equipment. My model
1:10:38was for people who had trainers and who
1:10:40who were teaching, you know, classes or
1:10:42sessions or semi-privates. And so in
1:10:43those instances, if you're at 99 and you
1:10:45go to to $200, you're not going to lose
1:10:47half your customers. You might lose a
1:10:48third, but you still make more money,
1:10:49you have more profit, etc. But he had
1:10:51taken what is otherwise something that
1:10:53has made so many gyms profitable and
1:10:56successful and he applied it to a
1:10:58specific context. Now he says, I'm a gym
1:11:00owner. He said gym stuff. Why did but
1:11:02then what happens is for you and I or
1:11:05anybody who wants to make content if I
1:11:07were to say okay under these situations
1:11:09under this part you know particular
1:11:11context if you have a decent
1:11:13relationship with your customers and you
1:11:14have ongoing communication then you can
1:11:15say it's like you you don't it takes 10
1:11:18minutes of disclaimers to get to the
1:11:19point right and so then this is why
1:11:22fundamentally like winners will always
1:11:24win because they will still be able to
1:11:26find you know the the silver lining even
1:11:29in the terrible experiences that will
1:11:30make them better And my favorite my
1:11:33favorite visualization of the type of
1:11:34person that I want to be is and this is
1:11:37a a Harry Potter reference. Uh but the
1:11:39sword of Gryffindor uh was made of
1:11:41dwarven steel and dwarfven steel in the
1:11:43in the mythology of Harry Potter um
1:11:45could only take in that which made it
1:11:47stronger. And so it's not to say that
1:11:49the sword of Gryffindor couldn't cut
1:11:51butter or couldn't you know uh just get
1:11:53into a sword fight, but if it happens to
1:11:55you know kill a basilix then it will
1:11:57absorb the poison of the basilisk. So
1:11:59like so many people lose because they
1:12:02want to prove that this too did not work
1:12:06when in reality it was that you don't
1:12:08know how to make it work and it has been
1:12:10easier for you to complain and say this
1:12:13did not work the way that I would prefer
1:12:15right rather than like how can I make
1:12:17this work for me how can I turn this
1:12:19into something that has been that can
1:12:21still be a W. And I think that one
1:12:26skill has probably been the single
1:12:28unlock that I've been able to have
1:12:30because like I I learned these
1:12:31alternative, you know, the this this
1:12:33alternative world of education of like
1:12:35how do you sell, how do you how do you
1:12:36run ads, how do you how do you sell, you
1:12:38know, courses, how do you do coaching,
1:12:40all this stuff that has a really
1:12:41negative kind of vibe. But the thing is
1:12:43is the fundamentals of persuasion there
1:12:45are so powerful. They were just being
1:12:48used to sell stuff that's not good. But
1:12:49the thing is is that there's so much
1:12:51buyer resistance there that if you can
1:12:52sell stuff in that market, when you go
1:12:54to sell
1:12:56insurance, you murder. And so I
1:13:01think people fail to take into
1:13:04consideration the context of the person
1:13:06who's given the advice and what piece is
1:13:08useful that they should use and the rest
1:13:11you can cast
1:13:13away. Figure out what you want. Ignore
1:13:16the opinions of others. Do so much work
1:13:18it would be unreasonable that you fail.
1:13:20Realize it never mattered to begin with.
1:13:23Help others once you get there. You've
1:13:25already achieved the things you said
1:13:26would make you
1:13:28successful. Yeah. The first five steps
1:13:30there is my um is basically my my master
1:13:33life
1:13:34plan. Um figure out what you
1:13:37want
1:13:39which my first boss um I had I I had a
1:13:42pretty terrible first out of college
1:13:44experience of work. Um but from that I
1:13:47learned some of the most important life
1:13:49lessons that I still take to this day.
1:13:51And uh that boss particularly said one
1:13:54thing to me one day. She said um
1:13:58figuring out what you want is 99% of it.
1:14:00She said once you know what you want
1:14:02getting it is the easy part. And I I
1:14:05kind of adopted that as a worldview
1:14:07because it's like once you're really
1:14:08clear like this is what I want
1:14:11everything that's not that is what I'm
1:14:13willing to give up to get it.
1:14:15Now that thing can change and I think
1:14:19that's the part that people miss is that
1:14:21like once you learn how to get stuff
1:14:23then it's like okay well he said he was
1:14:26willing to do it's like yeah well the
1:14:27thing I wanted changed is do I have your
1:14:29permission to change what I want and I
1:14:32think we should all have permission to
1:14:33change what we want in any given moment
1:14:36and not having basically sunk life bias
1:14:39of like I put 10 years into this thing
1:14:41and that's okay and that's what I needed
1:14:43to do at that time and today I'm willing
1:14:46to I'm going to change everything. And
1:14:49what's really interesting about if you
1:14:50look at like addicts and alcohol people
1:14:52who need to you know quit you know uh
1:14:54whatever bad habit they have there's a
1:14:56really strong frame Ed Mlet talks about
1:14:58it which is basically one more
1:15:01and it's been super helpful for me to
1:15:06not think of my changes as permanent
1:15:09because it's been it's allowed me to
1:15:10make such dramatic changes in my in my
1:15:13life or my business much faster than I
1:15:16think most people have been willing too
1:15:17because there's this this weight of
1:15:20forever on top of everything. Like we
1:15:21extrapolate like you're in a
1:15:22relationship. She told me to pick up my
1:15:24socks. She's going to nag at me forever
1:15:25the rest of my life. We need to break
1:15:26up, right? Or I can do this for today
1:15:31and tomorrow if it still works, I will
1:15:34do it for tomorrow. And if 5 days from
1:15:36now or 25 days from now, if I work this
1:15:39way, I then say, you know what, I need a
1:15:41day. People like, oh, he's burned out.
1:15:42It's like, I took a day cuz that's what
1:15:45I needed that day. And I think giving
1:15:47myself permission to have that freedom
1:15:49has allowed me to take significantly
1:15:50faster action in what apparently looks
1:15:52like higher risk scenarios because who
1:15:56am I apologizing to?
1:16:01Realize it never mattered to begin with.
1:16:03What's
1:16:07that? Cosmic irrelevance. So like we're
1:16:10willing to sacrifice everything that we
1:16:12have for the thing that we want. And
1:16:13then once we get the thing that we want,
1:16:15we want back the things that we
1:16:16sacrificed, which really just goes to
1:16:17the heart of the human condition, which
1:16:19is we want it
1:16:20all. And we're not willing to make
1:16:22trades. And so one of the reasons that
1:16:24I've actually, I would say, largely
1:16:26tossed out the deathbed regrets of most
1:16:29people is that what they do typically is
1:16:31they will have the bias of wanting the
1:16:34other path they could have taken without
1:16:37considering the cost of that path. So
1:16:39they say, "Hey, I was really successful
1:16:41and I did all these things, but you
1:16:43know, I I would give it all up today to
1:16:45have my family." It's like, well, yeah,
1:16:46but you didn't because you actually
1:16:48chose the path that you're on and you
1:16:50weren't willing to do that. But what you
1:16:52are saying right now is that you want it
1:16:54all. Sure. So does everyone. And so, um,
1:16:58I've had a, you know, a few moments of
1:17:01clarity over the last, you know, year or
1:17:02so, but if you want it all, life will
1:17:06give you nothing.
1:17:09And that has been helpful for me because
1:17:13in pursuit of we want everything without
1:17:16the cost and everything has a price and
1:17:20you will never be able to get the
1:17:21sufficient price tag paid on everything
1:17:25to reach critical mass to achieve a
1:17:28monocative success in any domain unless
1:17:31you are willing to trade from another.
1:17:33And I think that that has significantly
1:17:36minimized my regret. Before we continue,
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1:18:52description below by heading to
1:18:548LE.com/modernwisdism using the code
1:18:56modernwisdom a checkout. That's
1:19:00ei.com/modernwisdom and modern wisdom a
1:19:02checkout. We give up our 20s for our
1:19:0530s. We give up our 30s for our 40s, our
1:19:0740s for our 50s. And we trade everything
1:19:09we achieved in our 30s, 40s, and 50s to
1:19:11get back to our 20s.
1:19:16We give up the thing we
1:19:20have most of for the thing that we have
1:19:22least of. And we give up the thing that
1:19:24we want for the thing that's supposed to
1:19:25get it.
1:19:27Right. I I I will become happy when I'm
1:19:30sufficiently successful. And I will
1:19:31sacrifice my happiness in pursuit of
1:19:32success so that I can become
1:19:34sufficiently successful so I can finally
1:19:35be happy. Yeah. We're the problem. Yeah.
1:19:39That that's that's that's reliably the
1:19:41takeaway. But I think it's a really
1:19:43really good point. this
1:19:45um like retrospective life reprogramming
1:19:49thing that people do uh
1:19:53where we spend our 20s wanting to be
1:19:56richer and older and have a family. Then
1:19:58we start that in our 30s and we gain
1:20:00more wealth and do the family thing and
1:20:01then we get back to get to our 40s and
1:20:03we've got more responsibilities. We've
1:20:04accumulated all of this stuff and then
1:20:05we think, "God, if only I could go back
1:20:07to my 20s." But you were
1:20:09miserable in your 20s. This is a great
1:20:12uh lesson from Morgan Hel. Fantastic. I
1:20:14think I sent you the nostalgia artist.
1:20:16Yeah. Um people should just search
1:20:18nostalgia uh what's his fund called?
1:20:21Uh collaborative fund. Nostalgia
1:20:23collaborative fund. It's a great essay.
1:20:25Um and in it he's talking to his wife
1:20:29and Morgan's wife is uh discussing with
1:20:34him what their plans are when the kids
1:20:35are going to move out. And Morgan starts
1:20:39talking about their time in their 20s
1:20:41where they could lie in on a Sunday
1:20:43morning and and and they didn't have any
1:20:45responsibilities and the kids didn't
1:20:46need taken to soccer practice. And he
1:20:48says, "Well, God, wasn't that the golden
1:20:49years? Like how amaz do you remember? Do
1:20:51you remember how amazing that was?" His
1:20:53wife turns to him and she goes, "Honey,
1:20:55you were miserable. You hated it. You
1:20:58had no idea whether you were going to be
1:20:59successful. You were constantly
1:21:01concerned about money. You were
1:21:02desperately needing validation from all
1:21:04of these people around you. you were
1:21:05were permanently in dissatisfaction
1:21:07about this stuff. And he realized that
1:21:09in retrospect he knew that all of his
1:21:11worries were a waste of time, but at the
1:21:14time he had no assurance that they
1:21:15weren't something he should fret about
1:21:16and keep himself up at
1:21:18night. We already know how the movie
1:21:20ends when we go back and say we want to
1:21:22relive it. And you can't relive it into
1:21:24the same context because uncertainty is
1:21:26the largest part of the story.
1:21:32I had a personal example that was
1:21:34similar to this which was Leila and I
1:21:35were talking and um I said you know when
1:21:39we you know didn't do any of the
1:21:41speaking and all this other stuff that
1:21:42we're doing and all we did was just own
1:21:44the portfolio companies and get
1:21:45distributions I was like man life was so
1:21:48chill like we just we could do whatever
1:21:50the we wanted you know we we didn't
1:21:52have an office like we didn't have to
1:21:53show up we just did whatever we wanted
1:21:55and she said you were the worst
1:21:58[Laughter]
1:22:05And so, and now we're working like
1:22:08maniacs, right? I've I I haven't worked
1:22:10harder than I have in the last 18 months
1:22:12in a while. Um, and she's like, I prefer
1:22:17you working the way that we do now to
1:22:21when you didn't have enough to do.
1:22:24And so I I I only partially say this for
1:22:27the one person that this this affects,
1:22:29which is that like even like we seek
1:22:31freedom, but it's really that we seek we
1:22:34seek options. Like the idea of freedom
1:22:36is a blank calendar, but a blank
1:22:38calendar that never gets filled is not a
1:22:40fulfilling day. And so we want the
1:22:42ability to have whatever we want during
1:22:45that day. And so I think
1:22:49being deliberate about what are what are
1:22:53my what are my good day moments that I
1:22:56can try and recreate every day. And I
1:22:58have it on my wall. I have two things on
1:23:00that are permanently on my in my office
1:23:02wall. Logic evidence utility
1:23:07and what does it
1:23:09mean? How do you know and why does that
1:23:12matter?
1:23:13And the other three are work out with
1:23:16friends, eat food with friends, write
1:23:18something, my good day formula. And so I
1:23:23I had the desire for freedom. When you
1:23:27aren't sure what things to fill that
1:23:29freedom with, when you know what to fill
1:23:31the freedom with, then you're willing to
1:23:33give up optionality because you already
1:23:35know, you've already pre-selected your
1:23:37lunch for the day because it's your
1:23:38favorite meal. And so so you are willing
1:23:41to make some sacrifices in terms of
1:23:42flexibility because you'll be able to
1:23:45have even more of those lunches or write
1:23:46even more uh by making some of these.
1:23:48I've tried many lunches and few are
1:23:50better than this. Yes. Exactly. And I I
1:23:53do think uh the perennial creatures of
1:23:55habit like you are and I think certainly
1:23:58I am as well. Um there is
1:24:02a a tendency to disparage new options.
1:24:06So, no, no, no, no. I already know the
1:24:07best lunch. Like, uh, you maybe, maybe.
1:24:11And, yeah, you've tried a lot of
1:24:13lunches. That's good. But do you really
1:24:15like you're So, what? So, you're never
1:24:17ever going to try another new lunch?
1:24:19Yeah. Huh? Well, okay. So, maybe. But
1:24:24also, how much of that How much of that
1:24:26could be you excusing the pain of
1:24:29adventure and the pain of potential
1:24:31failure? A bad lunch. I might try a new
1:24:33lunch and it might be worse. What a
1:24:35waste that would be. Look at all
1:24:36the time that I've put into trying
1:24:38lunches. Look at look at the quality of
1:24:40lunch I could have had compared with the
1:24:42new one. And this is a kind of a lesson
1:24:44of getting older. And this is almost
1:24:46certainly one of the reasons why
1:24:47people's openness to experience on ocean
1:24:49decreases as they get older that they
1:24:51have this sort of experts fallacy thing.
1:24:53Um so I've spent time recently around a
1:24:57lot of people in bands and these guys
1:24:59are very artistic. Uh they they have uh
1:25:03studios that are filled with
1:25:04torn up magazine sheets and like a sock.
1:25:07Zack, my housemate, had a sock
1:25:09cellar taped to his wall for the two
1:25:11years we lived together. I was like,
1:25:12"What's that doing there?" I don't know.
1:25:14Um well, why is it there? And he just
1:25:16cuz he's, you know, covered in tattoos
1:25:18and playing guitar and and and
1:25:20writing poetry and doing stuff.
1:25:22It just to him that doesn't that doesn't
1:25:24really matter. And I was like, I should
1:25:27be around people that push me beyond my
1:25:29limits to do new things more in
1:25:30different ways. Yes. Yes. Yes. I need
1:25:32different levels of stimulus there. Just
1:25:34to linger for one more moment on that uh
1:25:36sort of nostalgia golden years thing. Um
1:25:38there's this really really lovely
1:25:40insight.
1:25:42Perhaps golden years can only happen in
1:25:43our memory. Nobody believes that we're
1:25:45living through a golden era right now.
1:25:47We never think we're in the good old
1:25:49days, but the good old days are always
1:25:51now. Well, sometimes. I mean co probably
1:25:54wasn't there's somewhat periods during
1:25:56which people would go that wasn't the
1:25:58good old days but when you're 85 and you
1:26:00were 25 in co you give anything
1:26:04for it. True. True. Yeah. I guess good
1:26:06good old days can be in many many variet
1:26:08depends on how bad now is. Correct. Uh
1:26:10but I'm sure that in the whatever like
1:26:13the 80s and the '9s in America, how many
1:26:16people considered they were living
1:26:17through the golden era? Yeah. Very few.
1:26:19And yet in retrospect, everybody just
1:26:21wants Britney Spears back. Do
1:26:23you know what I mean? Like the old one,
1:26:25not the new one. She's crazy. Um, that's
1:26:27what everybody wants. They want this
1:26:29sort of
1:26:30Creed, big tackles from American
1:26:32football, 18wheel articulated lorries,
1:26:36and big American flags flying. I have
1:26:38spent a huge amount of mental resources
1:26:41accepting
1:26:43suffering and not saying that there's
1:26:46something wrong with something bad. Like
1:26:50a huge amount of mental resources has
1:26:51gone into this because my I I've I've
1:26:54been better and faster at correcting the
1:26:55loop of like oh I am not happy with this
1:26:58particular thing and therefore there is
1:27:01something wrong. Yeah. So fix the story
1:27:03that I tell myself as opposed to fix the
1:27:04thing. And that's been um super helpful
1:27:08with the addition of everything that I
1:27:10remember will always be better than it
1:27:13was. And the nice thing is that there's
1:27:15tons of science that backs this up,
1:27:17which is that we learn uh through reward
1:27:20and punishment. Punishment fades with
1:27:23time, no matter how bad it was. Like you
1:27:26get drunk, you get hung over, you say,
1:27:28"I'll never drink again." 7 days later,
1:27:29you're out drinking again. Why? The
1:27:31punishment of the hangover fades
1:27:33quickly. you are with somebody for a
1:27:35while, you're like, "This is
1:27:36crazy." Or, "This guy is crazy." And
1:27:38then you break up and then all of a
1:27:40sudden, what do you remember? The good
1:27:41times. Because reward
1:27:44sticks. And in some ways, there's a
1:27:47little bit of a hopeful message there,
1:27:48which is that when you look back on your
1:27:49life, you will disproportionately
1:27:51remember the good times. But it only
1:27:53becomes a problem if you lament the
1:27:54present, which is the only thing you've
1:27:56ever actually lived in. That's the
1:27:57fading affect bias. Tragedy plus time
1:28:00equals comedy is the closest thing
1:28:02psychology has to an equation. Um, all
1:28:05right, next one. People only root for
1:28:07others at two times. First, when they're
1:28:09at the beginning of the race. Second,
1:28:11when they finish. Neither is when you
1:28:13need it. So, you have to master the
1:28:15middle. The boring, exhausting,
1:28:17soulcrushing middle. That's where the
1:28:19winning happens on your own. People will
1:28:21only cheer for you as long as you can't
1:28:24beat them at the game they value most.
1:28:26friendly reminder that every person who
1:28:28doubts you is right until they aren't.
1:28:30It's a bug, not a
1:28:33feature. I mean, I feel like as you read
1:28:36these, you're reading my soul from this
1:28:38year. Um, I mean, that's why I mean, I I
1:28:40tweet these every day as they come up
1:28:42because that's what's top of mind for
1:28:44me. And, you know, the boring mundane
1:28:47middle like I think about, you know, the
1:28:49very very beginning people say, you
1:28:51know, I'm really excited for you that
1:28:52you're trying this thing out, right? And
1:28:54I noticed that everyone was very happy
1:28:57for me to try because I temporarily
1:28:59decreased my status. I actually became
1:29:00worse than them during that period of
1:29:02time. And then as soon as I achieved a
1:29:04level of success, which I then realized
1:29:06that their happiness for me was
1:29:07proportional to where they were on the
1:29:08ladder relative to me. And so as soon as
1:29:10I passed some people, then they stopped
1:29:13being happy and then they start, you
1:29:14know, you know, uh, saying bad things,
1:29:17right? And the people who were still
1:29:19always ahead were still like, "Keep it
1:29:21up. Keep it up." And there's still
1:29:22people who have been that way my whole
1:29:23life. And I just wonder if and when I
1:29:25pass them, will they flip? I don't know.
1:29:28But also to the same degree, it was the
1:29:30it was after you start the race when
1:29:32you're in the thick of it because you'll
1:29:33quickly pass the people who've done
1:29:35nothing. But then you have this long
1:29:37period of time where you don't catch up
1:29:38to the people who've been doing it for a
1:29:39long time and that's the part where it's
1:29:42very lonely because you don't have your
1:29:43initial your initial posy. You have to
1:29:45leave them at some point. Um, but then
1:29:48you don't get to the new group that's,
1:29:50you know, way ahead and actually has
1:29:51some some proof behind them that you can
1:29:53actually like sit at the table. And so
1:29:55like today I have, if I were to do
1:29:57something, I have tons of support, but I
1:30:00don't really need the support now. I
1:30:02need I I needed it in the middle, right?
1:30:04In the many years that like no one knew
1:30:06who Alexi was. Um, and that's that's
1:30:09that's the hard part. And I think it's
1:30:11it's the story that Morgan Hassel tells,
1:30:13which is that you just don't know how
1:30:14it's going to finish. And that's what
1:30:16makes it hard is the uncertainty of like
1:30:18what if I give up everything that I've
1:30:20done in my life for nothing and then all
1:30:22of a sudden if I knew that then I
1:30:24wouldn't be willing to make this trade.
1:30:25But in retrospect when you do have the
1:30:27thing you're like of course I was like
1:30:28if I knew that this was going to happen
1:30:30I'd be I would I would happily make the
1:30:32trade. But you don't know. And so you're
1:30:35just putting the money down and they're
1:30:37rolling it. But you get to find out if
1:30:38you hit black five years from
1:30:40now. Yeah. It's it it's why dealing with
1:30:42uncertainty is such a meta skill and
1:30:45it's one that I to be honest it's one
1:30:47that I really suck at. I'm I'm very very
1:30:49not good at dealing with uncertainty. My
1:30:52uh
1:30:53required line of assurance in order for
1:30:57me to commit to a decision is incredibly
1:31:00high. Which is why I've basically never
1:31:01failed at anything that I've done. M all
1:31:03of the stuff that I've done uh a string
1:31:06of incredibly
1:31:09slow but very reliable successes is just
1:31:12because my required number of uh sort of
1:31:15justification points is very high and
1:31:18you know in retrospect it might look
1:31:20like it was a risk. It's like dude I I
1:31:21took so long to make this
1:31:23decision. It's not I I knew that I
1:31:24wanted to move to America for
1:31:26ages years and years before I actually
1:31:28ended up doing it and it took a long
1:31:30time for me to commit to that decision.
1:31:32I knew that I wanted to pivot out of
1:31:33nightife for a good while before I got
1:31:36myself to the stage where I was prepared
1:31:38to do that. On the on the friend point,
1:31:42it's a a painful realization that the
1:31:46small number of good friends want you to
1:31:48win in case you take them with you. And
1:31:51the large number of bad friends are
1:31:53scared of you winning in case you leave
1:31:54them behind.
1:31:56The best way to
1:31:58know who a real friend is is how they
1:32:01react when you win. And when that
1:32:03happens, you'll realize how few real
1:32:05friends you really have. Mhm. I I mean,
1:32:09look, I don't know whether it's just
1:32:12some sort of cosmic blessing or
1:32:14whatever, but or maybe I'm discerning
1:32:16with friends, I don't know. Or maybe
1:32:17it's small circle thing or whatever. Um
1:32:20it's been very rare that that's that
1:32:22I've been on the receiving end of that.
1:32:23um that I've I've ended up being around
1:32:26as soon as I left the UK. And even the
1:32:28people that I was around in the UK, I'
1:32:30chosen a relatively small group of
1:32:31people, but all of them like
1:32:33still now to this day love we're still
1:32:37in touch. We still we still support each
1:32:38other and I keep I'm loving seeing what
1:32:40they're doing.
1:32:42But I get the sense that if you're a
1:32:45little bit more open, if the circle's a
1:32:47little bit more open, there is a huge
1:32:49amount of incentive for you to listen to
1:32:54people who do not have your best
1:32:55interests at heart. And they
1:32:57suck. And those people need to get out
1:32:58of your
1:32:59life. One of my rules is you should only
1:33:02take advice from people whose dreams for
1:33:04your life are bigger than yours are,
1:33:08which is a very small number of people.
1:33:10Sometimes it's your parents. Sometimes
1:33:11your parents really do have bigger
1:33:12dreams for you than you do in different
1:33:14ways as well. In ways that you don't
1:33:16notice. I mean, I think the the closest
1:33:18approximation to yourself is a spouse.
1:33:20It's the most it's the most tactically
1:33:22aligned person that you can have. Still,
1:33:24obviously, there are some spouses who
1:33:25are are not good, but I can say that I
1:33:28think Leila's dreams for me have been in
1:33:30many ways bigger or ahead of where my
1:33:32dreams for me have been. Um, and I have
1:33:34big dreams. And, you know, listening to
1:33:36her um has has has yielded really great
1:33:39returns.
1:33:41But to the point that you were saying
1:33:42earlier about those those friends that
1:33:45were kind of with you in the early days,
1:33:46I think it's actually cyclical.
1:33:50So the people who are closest to you in
1:33:52the beginning, if they're like true like
1:33:55actual friends, then you recognize that
1:33:56because they actually want you to win
1:33:58and that's amazing. A lot of people
1:33:59don't have that. And so what I have felt
1:34:02at least for me was that when you're a
1:34:05little ahead is where the friction is.
1:34:09when you blow them out of the water and
1:34:10there's no question like it's it's
1:34:13beyond reproach. They will do one of two
1:34:15things. They will either be really happy
1:34:16for you or they'll change the game that
1:34:18they're beating you
1:34:20at. That's great, but I'm in better
1:34:22shape. That's great, but my marriage is
1:34:24better, right? Like or whatever, you
1:34:25know, whatever game that they choose to
1:34:26play. And so I think the last um the
1:34:29last quote that you had there about um
1:34:31friendly reminder that every person who
1:34:33doubts you is right until they aren't.
1:34:34It's a bug, not a feature. It's not a
1:34:37bug, it's a feature.
1:34:45Yeah, people who doubt you will be right
1:34:48most of the time and this further
1:34:50increases your uncertainty about the
1:34:53path that you're choosing to
1:34:56take. But on a long enough time horizon,
1:35:00most people who don't bet are guaranteed
1:35:03to lose. And so they get to win at being
1:35:08right more times than you get to win at
1:35:12being right. But what that equation
1:35:15doesn't take into consideration is
1:35:17intensity, which is can I be so right
1:35:20one time that it makes all of the times
1:35:22that I was wrong irrelevant? And in the
1:35:25nature of life, the answer is yes,
1:35:27almost a resounding yes for just about
1:35:30every domain. Like everyone can say that
1:35:33every person you've ever dated has
1:35:34sucked and they could predict that
1:35:35you're going to break up until you find
1:35:37the person that you're going to marry
1:35:38and in that moment who cares
1:35:40about the other 90 people that you went
1:35:42on dates with that everybody said was a
1:35:43bad idea or that you have a bad picker
1:35:45or you don't have a good taste. It's
1:35:46like well you're not marrying them. I
1:35:50date in a way that's different than than
1:35:51you would prefer. Great. But I did end
1:35:53up finding this thing. I the you know
1:35:56the first thing that I ever did was you
1:35:58know an online an online fitness thing
1:36:00and it kind of worked and then I did my
1:36:02first gym and it kind of worked and then
1:36:03I started all these other other side
1:36:04side projects. I got distracted and I
1:36:06didn't know and many people were like
1:36:09sure like good luck with that. But I
1:36:11knew that they just weren't really
1:36:12rooting for me. They were rooting for me
1:36:13to fail. They were rooting for me the
1:36:15wrong way. And
1:36:18so the downside risk is significantly
1:36:21smaller and more
1:36:23frequent. It's both. You're more likely
1:36:26to lose and it's more likely to happen
1:36:28more times. It's just that upside is
1:36:30uncapped. And so, and I think about this
1:36:33one a lot. So, there's the story of the
1:36:34guy. Do you know the guy who wrote
1:36:36Jingle Bells? No. So, I didn't even know
1:36:39that that was I thought it was like
1:36:40Happy Birthday. I thought he was just
1:36:41gifted to humanity when when we started.
1:36:43So, there's this guy. He's a he's a it's
1:36:45he has the most tragic life you can
1:36:48imagine just like an a complete like you
1:36:51don't know his name right I can't even
1:36:52remember his name right has did nothing
1:36:54but failed was a failed everything and
1:36:58his entire life was nothing he just
1:37:00happened to write this small thing
1:37:02called jingle bells and it has become
1:37:04you know the number one song at
1:37:05Christmas time like maybe globally and I
1:37:08think about that life where it's like
1:37:10what if I failed at everything but then
1:37:13I have one thing that actually makes a
1:37:15permanent impact. I was like, would I
1:37:16trade that life for Aristotle's good
1:37:19life where I amount to nothing but the
1:37:21whole time was good? And this is just
1:37:22one of my eternal battles where I think
1:37:23with myself that I have no answer for to
1:37:25be clear. But when I'm when I'm thinking
1:37:27through the periods where things suck,
1:37:29I'm like, well, maybe maybe I'll get a
1:37:32jingle bells out of this and maybe it'll
1:37:34just take 20 years longer than I thought
1:37:37on the contribution of other people. The
1:37:39pessimists get to be right, the
1:37:40optimists get to be rich. And it's
1:37:42because of intensity. It's the thing
1:37:43that it's we are so bad at estimating
1:37:47value returns. Yeah, we're very it's
1:37:49very hard for us to compreh comprehend
1:37:50an outside return. We're very good at
1:37:52binary thinking of yes, this worked. No,
1:37:53this didn't work. But we're not very
1:37:55good at thinking through the bet of I
1:37:57get 10x and I'm going to lose 50% of the
1:37:58time. People don't make that bet and
1:38:00they should do it every time. The reason
1:38:01that this has been of particular
1:38:03interest to me is I would consider
1:38:04myself a criticism hyperresponder.
1:38:07Um, you know, I I I'm not sure why being
1:38:10on the outside as a kid, maybe being a
1:38:12little bit more socially isolated, uh,
1:38:15only child syndrome, being hideous as,
1:38:17but I mean, I was like pretty I was a
1:38:19very late bloomer, right? Um, and you
1:38:21talk funny. I do talk funny. I did for
1:38:23the place that I was in as well as the
1:38:25place that I'm in now. I just had a
1:38:27career of talking funny in different
1:38:28places. Um,
1:38:32but the reason that I'm so averse,
1:38:38so the reason that I really don't like
1:38:41people who put down those that are
1:38:43trying to do something different or have
1:38:44big dreams is that I know how close I
1:38:48came to not taking a shot because of the
1:38:52opinions of other people around me. And
1:38:54I'm aware this is not super alpha lone
1:38:58ranger solo degenerate prneur
1:39:01pill, right? The cannon and the law of
1:39:03someone that's supposed to be successful
1:39:05is basically one long middle finger to
1:39:08all doubters. But this
1:39:11is what every single Rocky training
1:39:15montage gets wrong, which
1:39:18is Rocky never doubted the direction and
1:39:22the path that he was on. just doubted
1:39:24whether or not he could get there.
1:39:26That's not the way the personal growth
1:39:27happens in my opinion at all. You are
1:39:29filled with uncertainty. Is this even
1:39:32working? I I I have no idea if there's
1:39:35glory on the other side of this. You
1:39:36know, it's the other it's the other side
1:39:37of the lonely it's the process of the
1:39:39lonely chapter. And if you have people
1:39:42around you that are adding weight onto
1:39:45the bar that you didn't choose, like,
1:39:47well, you're just making it
1:39:48harder for me to stand up. It's already
1:39:50hard enough for me. And um yeah,
1:39:54increasingly I just want to be around
1:39:57people that make me feel good about the
1:39:59things that I'm trying to do. And I
1:40:00don't think that that's an unreasonable
1:40:02demand. And I also think that it can
1:40:05seem fragile, shallow, or fickle or
1:40:09uncommitted or needy or um undriven, not
1:40:17robust. And yet I still want it. And yet
1:40:21for me, choosing to swim against the
1:40:25tide just seems like a stupid decision.
1:40:27So I want people in my life whose dreams
1:40:29are bigger for me than mine are and who
1:40:31believe in me more than I do.
1:40:34And I think when you find people like
1:40:40that who help you achieve the goals that
1:40:43you set out to achieve, you realize when
1:40:46you achieve the goals that they were
1:40:48more valuable than the goals that
1:40:53you got. I it's the I said to you before
1:40:57I'm hopefully about to move into some
1:41:00sort of a office studio location in
1:41:04Austin and I've just tapped out my
1:41:07solo DGEN energy. Uh you know
1:41:11you don't work in a cupboard anymore as
1:41:13much. Um sometimes but not always to my
1:41:16dismay. Yeah. Where I can't be in the
1:41:19cupboard where I can't stare at the
1:41:21wall. Me in platform 9 and 3/4. Um
1:41:24because I've just run out of that gas
1:41:26tank and I want to be around people. I
1:41:28want to be around my friends. I want to
1:41:31be around the people that I work with
1:41:32and I want to have a little squad of
1:41:34people that help, you know, bolster
1:41:37me. If you talk about work life balance
1:41:39as a 22-year-old man, you're hanging
1:41:41around with the wrong people. That
1:41:43knowing feeling when you realize you've
1:41:45outgrown your social circle isn't
1:41:46loneliness. It's your ambition finally
1:41:48speaking louder than your need to
1:41:50belong.
1:41:53And there's a narrative that we should
1:41:57not criticize ourselves. We should not
1:42:00say the things that we could have done
1:42:02better. But I believe that that voice
1:42:05isn't an insecurity. I think
1:42:08it's a version that wants you to chase
1:42:11your potential. And so I think not
1:42:13judging the criticism, but accepting the
1:42:16criticism. I think those are the two
1:42:18separate things.
1:42:19Um, and I think that's what that's what
1:42:22unlocks the potential while making it
1:42:24somewhat palatable along the way. Yeah.
1:42:27Well, it's it's uncomfortable, right?
1:42:28You position an ideal, you compare
1:42:30yourself to that ideal, you find
1:42:31yourself lacking. There is pain in that.
1:42:33So, you can either sit with the pain or
1:42:34you can judge the pain. You mentioned
1:42:36this earlier on. I call it second order
1:42:38emotions. Mark Manson calls them meta
1:42:40emotions. So feeling frustrated at your
1:42:42anxiousness and then feeling bitter
1:42:43about your frustration at your
1:42:44anxiousness and then feeling resentful
1:42:46about your bitterness at your
1:42:47frustration about your anxiousness and
1:42:49you don't have all that much control
1:42:51over the first ones. Emotions are going
1:42:53to come and go. You have a lot of
1:42:55control over the ones that come after
1:42:56that. Did you tell me the story of uh
1:42:58Buddha and the second arrow? No. Oh,
1:43:02it's great.
1:43:03So the Buddha was trying to teach a
1:43:05lesson and he says if I um shoot you
1:43:08with an arrow uh does it hurt and you
1:43:11know the student was like uh yes it
1:43:13would be hurtful or like you know that
1:43:14that would suck. And so he says okay if
1:43:17I were to shoot you with you know a
1:43:19second arrow in the same spot after the
1:43:21first arrow would that hurt? And he said
1:43:23yes. He said the first arrow is life. He
1:43:26said you can't avoid the first arrow. He
1:43:28said but the second arrow is you and
1:43:30that one you can avoid. And so suffering
1:43:33is a constant. That's a fixed cost of
1:43:35life. We're going to have downsides.
1:43:36We're going to have bad seasons, bad
1:43:37moments, bad days. But I think a great
1:43:41rule to live by is like only suffer
1:43:43once. Like great I and I mean my god. I
1:43:47think if everyone only suffered once,
1:43:49like just because I like tiny little
1:43:50monikers that I can remind myself in the
1:43:52moment of okay, this happened. I will
1:43:55only allow it. I will only suffer this
1:43:57one time. I will not relive this moment
1:43:59over and over again. I will not judge
1:44:00myself for not, you know, behaving the
1:44:02way I would have liked to have behaved.
1:44:04I will not judge the the the the version
1:44:06of me that I should have been at this
1:44:08moment. And round and round you go. It's
1:44:09like an infinite regress of
1:44:10self-castigation. Yeah. Right. And so
1:44:12it's like I want me I want memory
1:44:15dividends, not memory
1:44:18liabilities. Yeah. If you talk about
1:44:20work life balance as a 22-y old man,
1:44:22you're hanging out with the wrong
1:44:23people. This goes back to the ask them
1:44:25what they did when they were at your
1:44:26stage, not what they do now thing. And
1:44:30look, I to hear you get within the same
1:44:36universe as something
1:44:37approximating work life balance. Okay,
1:44:39let's let's calm down here. Don't get
1:44:42too ahead of yourself. I mean, that that
1:44:44is a that's a really sort of cosmic
1:44:45change for you in and your direction.
1:44:48And as somebody who cares about your
1:44:51well-being, it's one that I've kind of
1:44:53been hoping for at some point, a bit of
1:44:56humanity to come through.
1:44:58Yeah, you know, to prove and it's I said
1:44:59it earlier on, dude. It proves that
1:45:01there is a there is a human inside of
1:45:04there. I'm being I'm being serious. And
1:45:06I I think it does a bunch of things. Um
1:45:10it shows that somebody who is very
1:45:12staunch about an opinion can change
1:45:14their mind, which I think is something
1:45:16that's very admirable. I think it is
1:45:18significantly more relatable to most
1:45:20people with a more common level of work
1:45:23ethic, desire for life outside of it. uh
1:45:25maybe a broader number of um things than
1:45:29three. Yeah. You know, on the post-it
1:45:32note. Um and I think, you know,
1:45:35selfishly for me, it gives us more to
1:45:37relate about because uh I have more to
1:45:41relate about someone who's trying to
1:45:43navigate what life looks like outside of
1:45:45work. Um but if you life outside of
1:45:48work, if you are you're you're slowly
1:45:50getting that uh you notice that as of
1:45:52yet, I haven't had some sort of
1:45:53Cassandra complex about I think I'll
1:45:55have mentioned if we go back to episode
1:45:573 at 4 minutes and 55. Um, I told you
1:46:00so.
1:46:02But it might not be okay to work your
1:46:05life away, but it is okay to work your
1:46:0720's away.
1:46:10And so many of the realizations that we
1:46:14have arrived at are only really
1:46:16accessible to you because you've closed
1:46:18the loop of all of the ones that you
1:46:20needed to first.
1:46:22So, I want to I want to aggressively
1:46:23comment on this. So,
1:46:26everything I said up to this point, I
1:46:28take it all out. Yeah. Um, no, I I want
1:46:31to comment on this because I think it's
1:46:32it's it's meaningful. So, um, number
1:46:34one, so I um I I would actually
1:46:36challenge um a couple of the things you
1:46:38said. Um, the biggest one being like the
1:46:41just shoulds in general, which is like
1:46:43you shouldn't work your life away. You
1:46:45should uh work away your 20s. my
1:46:48opinion, do whatever the you want.
1:46:51If you have a goal, then there will be
1:46:54ways that will increase or decrease the
1:46:55likelihood to achieve them. And so if
1:46:58and having simultaneous goals
1:47:00dramatically decreases the likelihood of
1:47:01accomplishing any of them. And it's
1:47:03typically easier to accomplish goals in
1:47:05sequence or chronologically rather than
1:47:07in parallel. Y and so if if I were to
1:47:10say, hey, what are the three, you know,
1:47:11three goals you have? And you say, one,
1:47:12two, three, and I say, okay, which of
1:47:14these three goals is the most important?
1:47:15Well, then let's work on that one first.
1:47:17And does that one goal allow us to does
1:47:19it decrease or does it decrease the
1:47:21failure rate of the other two goals
1:47:22which then makes it the most important
1:47:24goal overall? Sometimes they are uh
1:47:27dependent on each other. I'm going to
1:47:29get in shape, get rich, then find a wife
1:47:31as opposed to I'm going to find a wife,
1:47:33then try and get rich, then try and get
1:47:34in shape. Yeah, you'll get dramatically
1:47:36higher quality talent. Uh for sure. U
1:47:39but maybe she'll just love you for you.
1:47:40Who knows? Uh we we can all hope.
1:47:44Regardless now most
1:47:4722-year-olds irrespective of domain if
1:47:50you if if and I that's why I have these
1:47:52conting like if you seek to be good at
1:47:55something then you have a tremendous
1:47:58deficit in experience and repetitions
1:48:00that people who are ahead of you or who
1:48:02have achieved what you want to achieve
1:48:03have over you. And so the only thing
1:48:05that you have now you do have an
1:48:06advantage you have a couple. Number one
1:48:09is that you will have more energy than
1:48:10they do period. And so your ability to
1:48:12work long hours, sleep less and maintain
1:48:15high levels of focus while maintaining
1:48:17peak fluid intelligence is at its peak.
1:48:20Use it. The second thing is that you
1:48:22have nothing to lose. And so the thing
1:48:24is is people always fear being the new
1:48:26the new entrant. But when you have
1:48:29nothing to lose or you have nothing
1:48:31going for you, it also means you have
1:48:33nothing to lose. And that means that
1:48:35every position on the board always has
1:48:36an advantage because anybody who has
1:48:37achieved this big thing that you have
1:48:39was also once a 22-year-old who had
1:48:41nothing going for them. And you're at
1:48:42zero, right? You can't get worse than
1:48:44this. You have unlimited shots on goal.
1:48:46And so not taking the shot is like
1:48:47saying, "Life, I don't want to scratch
1:48:48off this lottery ticket, but the lottery
1:48:50ticket's free. Why would you not scratch
1:48:52it off and try it?" And so the first
1:48:55advantage is you've got you've got
1:48:56energy. Next advantage is you have
1:48:58nothing to lose. Third is you also have
1:48:59time and you have very low
1:49:01responsibilities. And so you have not
1:49:02only the ability to uh to put all of
1:49:04your yourself into something, you also
1:49:06have no circumstantial things that are
1:49:07preventing you. Now, if someone is
1:49:08listening to this and like, I'm 25 and
1:49:10I've got a kid.
1:49:11Cool.
1:49:13And which thing do you want to
1:49:15sacrifice? And I'm saying sacrifice your
1:49:16kid, but I'm saying like you're going to
1:49:18have some trades. Now, I take things to
1:49:20the logical extreme and say, okay, well,
1:49:23Basos has kids, Bill Gates has kids,
1:49:24Warren Buffett has kids. This is just if
1:49:26you wanted to be, you know, business
1:49:27successful. It's like, okay, well then
1:49:28that can't be a reason that I can't be
1:49:30successful. And so whatever reasons that
1:49:32we usually give ourselves in the
1:49:34beginning for why we can't achieve
1:49:35something, you can almost always find
1:49:37not only just someone, but someone who's
1:49:39achieved worldclass levels of success
1:49:42with worse conditions than you currently
1:49:44have, which then means it's absolutely
1:49:46possible. And then the only thing that
1:49:47it takes to get there is work. And so um
1:49:52I I I just wanted to be very clear that
1:49:54if you are, you know, if you're 22 years
1:49:56old, like the world does not hate you.
1:49:58You're just not good at anything yet. I
1:50:00I felt
1:50:03so jilted by the world as a young
1:50:07business person because we were stepping
1:50:09into these meetings with 40 and
1:50:1250year-old nightclub leisure company
1:50:15owners and me and my business partner
1:50:17were 19 or 20 and we were saying, "Hey,
1:50:19nice club. Shame no one's in
1:50:21it." And we can put people in. Uh, and
1:50:25the fact that someone twice our age or
1:50:28three times our age was sat opposite the
1:50:30table from us and didn't give me respect
1:50:32made me it made me really
1:50:34uh discouraged. So I'm like I'm you need
1:50:38me. You need f people. I have people.
1:50:42Why can you not see this? Why can you
1:50:45not see the value in what it is that I
1:50:47do?
1:50:47And it feels like
1:50:50a personal curse, some sort of cosmic
1:50:53judgment that's just bestowed on you.
1:50:56Oh, it's because of my failing. It's
1:50:59because they are being mean to me.
1:51:01Another 20-year-old business person who
1:51:03would have went in there, they would
1:51:04have been given the respect that they
1:51:05deserve. It's like, no, if you're young,
1:51:09everybody in business is going to be
1:51:10skeptical of you. Now, this is changing
1:51:11a little bit. I think uh the rise of the
1:51:15wonder kid, the Elon Musk, Doge, Deen
1:51:18world. I think maybe is leverage.
1:51:21There's that uh kid that made the AI app
1:51:23that takes photos of food and it does
1:51:25calories and he's making like a million
1:51:26dollars a month or something. He's 16,
1:51:2817, 18. He just vibecoded his way to
1:51:31like multi-millionaire status in his
1:51:33teenage years. Okay, we're starting to
1:51:35realize that ideas get unlocked through
1:51:39technology and through youth and through
1:51:40insight.
1:51:43But there is still an industrial era
1:51:45mindset, industrial revolution era
1:51:47mindset which is this craft of sometime
1:51:51of some type will take a lot of time for
1:51:53you to get there. And uh by virtue of
1:51:56that, people are skeptical of young guys
1:51:59and young girls. And you're right. If
1:52:01you're 22 and starting your own
1:52:02business, the world doesn't hate you.
1:52:04They're just skeptical of you. You know
1:52:07what's interesting is um what you talked
1:52:08about earlier about like the lowrisk
1:52:09path. Like you look at all these things.
1:52:12I think you become the exception by
1:52:14being the rule. And so I'll unpack that,
1:52:17but like
1:52:19we we highlight the 16-year-old, right?
1:52:22we don't nearly as much highlight the
1:52:2530-year-old who's crushing it because
1:52:26it's like well obviously he worked for a
1:52:28decade and then he got there. It's like
1:52:29but if you work for a decade and they
1:52:31get you there you are exceptional. You
1:52:34are already at the very ends of
1:52:36achievement and you did it by following
1:52:37the rule which is that it's just maybe
1:52:39not unpredicted. Yes. It's not it's not
1:52:41a surprise. And so I think people
1:52:43conflate surprises with exceptional and
1:52:46it is exceptional in that it's rare not
1:52:48necessarily that it's the only kind of
1:52:50rare. Correct. It's rare that it was a
1:52:52lottery ticket more than and of course
1:52:54and I want to be clear maybe he's 16 or
1:52:56and like Mr. Beast is a perfect example
1:52:58of this. He's 25 I think now. Something
1:53:00like that. 256. I know we're getting
1:53:01old. Um and so the thing is is that he
1:53:05started I think making videos when he
1:53:07was 12, right? And so it's like oh well
1:53:10he's got 13 years in just one game
1:53:14spending every hour of every day for
1:53:17that 13 years doing it. And so some of
1:53:20these kind of younger guys and I think
1:53:21part of this is just proliferation of
1:53:23information and access to information
1:53:24has just gotten, you know, bountiful for
1:53:26everyone. And with AI, it's been easier
1:53:27for people with fewer resources that to
1:53:29to start actual things, right? The cost
1:53:31of entry financially is significantly
1:53:33lower. And the cost the access to
1:53:35information is basically almost zero.
1:53:37And so when you combine those things, if
1:53:39you're 14 years old, you have high fluid
1:53:42intelligence. Like your brain's working.
1:53:43So, if you're like if you're on the
1:53:44younger side, like there's there is no
1:53:46rule that says that an app designed by a
1:53:4814-year-old is in some way or anyway
1:53:51valued less by a customer than an app
1:53:53that's developed by a
1:53:5540-year-old. There's no rule. And so I
1:53:59will also push back on one thing, which
1:54:02is if you continue to feel like people
1:54:07don't take you
1:54:08seriously, if you continue to feel like
1:54:11people don't take you seriously because
1:54:12of your
1:54:13age, it might be not because of your
1:54:16age. It might be because you suck. And I
1:54:19think that is a significantly harder and
1:54:22pro and more probable pill that you'll
1:54:24have to swallow. Well, especially given
1:54:26that self assessment and reflection is
1:54:28difficult to do when you're young. Your
1:54:30own ability to understand where your
1:54:32strengths and weaknesses lie. It's hard.
1:54:34Full stop. Sure. It's really hard if
1:54:36you're 20. Yeah. Right. Or 22. This is
1:54:40from Mark Manson. I had this episode
1:54:41with him this week. It was so good.
1:54:44Before you win, everyone will ask why
1:54:46you're working so hard. And after you
1:54:48win, everyone will remind you how lucky
1:54:49you got. Holy dude. You know
1:54:53what's funny? I actually Okay, so I
1:54:56didn't know that's where the where the
1:54:57quote was going to go. I thought it was
1:54:59going to go um before you win, everyone
1:55:01asks you why you're working so hard.
1:55:02After you win, everyone asks you why
1:55:04you're working so hard.
1:55:12That's I mean both of those work. Yeah.
1:55:14And it's it's it's true. But I think in
1:55:17that in both of those situations, both
1:55:19of those things are true. um in both of
1:55:22them before you win, everyone will ask
1:55:23you why you're working so
1:55:25hard. There's no proof that this is
1:55:27going in the right direction. You don't
1:55:29have any evidence that you're actually
1:55:31even good at this thing. The likelihood
1:55:33of a positive outcome is incredibly low.
1:55:35And after you
1:55:37win, have you not yet reached escape
1:55:40velocity where you don't need to do this
1:55:41anymore? Um why are you capitalizing on
1:55:45an opportunity? Uh why are you
1:55:47capitalizing on um conquest instead of
1:55:51continuing to just start from
1:55:52opportunity at the bottom? Like because
1:55:54you've now reached the top of
1:55:56the mountain, is enough enough? Uh or
1:55:59dude, I mean, you know, just so precient
1:56:02to start a business at that time. Like
1:56:04you, you know, like you really timed the
1:56:06market or uh I've been learning about um
1:56:10it's not venting, but it's a I can't
1:56:12I can't remember what it's called.
1:56:13It's this particular type of put down
1:56:16that chicks give other chicks. And I I
1:56:19don't think that guys have I frankly
1:56:21don't think that guys have like the
1:56:22lexical capacity to do this socially. Um
1:56:26but it's something like uh imagine that
1:56:28a bunch of girls are at a a wedding
1:56:30together and there's one girl that
1:56:33doesn't like another one and she'll say
1:56:35something like, you know, I really
1:56:37admire your confidence. Like I would
1:56:39never wear a dress like that and it's
1:56:42just like I'm you know it it looks you
1:56:45know you just with your body type like
1:56:47it's really impressive that you that you
1:56:48decided to wear that today. like that's
1:56:50just you know you've done you're com
1:56:51you've done really well or you know huh
1:56:54you you're prepared to like just eat
1:56:56like I you know I I can't I can't just
1:56:59like keep eating but it seems like you
1:57:01just don't really mind and it's this
1:57:03sort of odd venting come put down you
1:57:05know are you trying to No I'm saying the
1:57:09dress you know it's this sort of
1:57:10culpable deniability of an insult and um
1:57:13yeah I get the sense that the look
1:57:18retrospective But conversation thing is
1:57:20a little bit like that. It's a
1:57:22backhanded insult, not a backhanded
1:57:28compliment. There's a meme from Family
1:57:31Guy that does this exact thing. It's two
1:57:33girls eating lunch together just trading
1:57:35insults like this. And then it just pans
1:57:38to two guys uh eating lunch after like a
1:57:4060-second exchange of just insults. And
1:57:42he says, "Hey, John, I like your tie."
1:57:45He says, "Oh, thanks." And it says,
1:57:48"Men, we know how to be friends."
1:57:52That's sick. I was just thinking about
1:57:54that while you're saying it. Um, but
1:57:57it's so it's so interesting like I have
1:57:58I have that statement that I said at the
1:58:00beginning, which is um you live your
1:58:03life in a way that I would not prefer.
1:58:05And all of these things boil down to
1:58:06that. And I've had this as my my
1:58:08internal translation mechanism because
1:58:10uh before you before you win, they're
1:58:12saying you live your life in a way that
1:58:13I would not prefer. And then after you
1:58:15win, in Mark's example, you have won in
1:58:17a way that I did not prefer. And then if
1:58:19you continue to work, you continue to
1:58:20live your life in a way that I would not
1:58:21prefer. And so at the end of the day,
1:58:23they just cast their preferences on to
1:58:24you. And then somehow they expect you to
1:58:26give a And I think this is where
1:58:29I've lost friends.
1:58:32Um, and that's okay. And they're
1:58:37entitled to think that you should care
1:58:38and you're entitled to not care. The
1:58:40problem here, especially again for me
1:58:42and for the people who are the criticism
1:58:44hyperresponders that are listening, if
1:58:46you overindex or even if you just index
1:58:49on other people's input, you think,
1:58:51"Huh, maybe for a while you didn't have
1:58:53as many
1:58:55people
1:58:56contributing to your life as you might
1:58:59have wanted. And now as a porpa, how can
1:59:02I reject this penny? Someone's flicked
1:59:04me." What you don't realize is that this
1:59:05penny could have arsenic on the other
1:59:06side of it or it might be a fake penny
1:59:08or it might be a joke or it might blow
1:59:09up in your hand or something. You go,
1:59:11"Huh, well, maybe maybe this person's
1:59:14comment is like useful. Maybe I should
1:59:17take heed of this. Maybe it's something
1:59:18that I should I should listen to." And
1:59:21the ability to be discerning when you're
1:59:23not used to receiving feedback. Yeah. Is
1:59:26a difficult skill. And again, the I can
1:59:30just middle finger my way through life
1:59:32not listening to anybody's opinion is an
1:59:34interesting one, but practically it's
1:59:35very difficult and it's a skill that you
1:59:37need to learn. And you do need to learn.
1:59:39You do need to listen to feedback. Like
1:59:41if you had never changed how you did
1:59:43your podcast from day one until now,
1:59:45your podcast would not be what it is.
1:59:47Right? If I had made sales
1:59:48presentations, if I had written emails,
1:59:50if I had made products that didn't
1:59:51respond to feedback, then we would not
1:59:54be where we're at right now. It's a
1:59:57really it's a really interesting
1:59:58question of like how do you discern
2:00:01which feedback is good and which
2:00:03feedback isn't. Y um and I'm trying to
2:00:07think about what my my perspective is on
2:00:10that. I think it comes down to number
2:00:13one aligned incentives like does this
2:00:16person benefit from me doing better.
2:00:19Number two is competence. Are they do
2:00:22they actually have sufficient domain
2:00:25expertise where their uh feedback would
2:00:28be relevant? Now, I'll be clear here. If
2:00:30you have a yogurt company and you want
2:00:33somebody to try your yogurt and your
2:00:34friends say, "I don't think the yogurt
2:00:35tastes good." Well, they probably had a
2:00:36lot of yogurt and they've eaten stuff
2:00:38before and so like they could very well
2:00:40have domain expertise. If you uh have a
2:00:43business that's a yogurt business and
2:00:45then your mother gives her opinion about
2:00:47how the business works and she's never
2:00:49run a business, that's different, right?
2:00:51And so so the second would be uh domain
2:00:53expertise or competence. The first is uh
2:00:56aligned incentives. Um and then what do
2:00:59you think? I think that those are like
2:01:01I'm trying to think of I honestly think
2:01:02those two those two are because you can
2:01:05start adding on but it just makes
2:01:06it harder. And
2:01:08the first one ensures that the person is
2:01:10pointing in the same direction as you.
2:01:12The second one ensures that they
2:01:13actually know how to row a boat.
2:01:15Yeah. Uh so yeah, I like that. I like
2:01:17that. Success really just boils down to
2:01:19this. You got to want it more than you
2:01:21hate what it takes to get it. If you're
2:01:24willing to suck at anything for 100 days
2:01:25in a row, you can beat most people at
2:01:27most things.
2:01:29Okay. I'm so excited you said this.
2:01:33So, we we we talked a little bit about
2:01:38how well I'll rewind the clock. So,
2:01:41there's this quote that I read from Kobe
2:01:43where he said he thought that it was
2:01:44going to be super competitive in the
2:01:46NBA, but when he got into the NBA, he
2:01:49realized that
2:01:50people, well, they figured out that they
2:01:53had made it and uh weren't willing to
2:01:55sacrifice as much as he was to continue
2:01:57to win. And I would say that that that
2:02:01realization has been somewhat true for
2:02:02me, which is that like
2:02:06winning it's like it it hasn't gotten
2:02:09harder from the actual doing stuff side.
2:02:12There has been the trades that have been
2:02:14different than I expected. Um but
2:02:17especially when you're looking at, you
2:02:19know, the population of everyone to a
2:02:21100 days of doing something in a row. Uh
2:02:24there was a there was a friend of mine
2:02:26who had a he offered a guarantee on a
2:02:28product that he sold and the guarantee
2:02:30was this. He said all you have to do you
2:02:32can get all your money back if you just
2:02:35open up a Google doc and say what you're
2:02:36going to do every day and at the end of
2:02:38the day you're going to say what you
2:02:39did. That's it. And you just do that for
2:02:41six weeks. That's all you have to do.
2:02:43And if you do that and you don't get the
2:02:44the results, I'll you know I'll give
2:02:47your money back. And what's crazy about
2:02:49that is when he was talking about it, he
2:02:50said, ' Do you know what the completion
2:02:51rate of twice a day doing something is?
2:02:55He's like, it's like less than 1%. He's
2:02:58like, so I can happily do it because it
2:03:00seems so simple. And so I think we we
2:03:04we
2:03:05underplay how simple success
2:03:08is and extrapolate an expectation of how
2:03:13easy it must be from that. And then
2:03:16we're disappointed or dissatisfied when
2:03:19it doesn't meet those expectations. Like
2:03:21it is harder than we expect, but also
2:03:25the rewards may be also greater than we
2:03:27expect. James Clear has this
2:03:30unbelievable insight. It doesn't make
2:03:33sense to continue wanting something if
2:03:35you're not willing to do what it takes
2:03:36to get it. If you don't want to live the
2:03:38lifestyle, then release yourself from
2:03:40the desire. To crave the result, but not
2:03:42the process is to guarantee
2:03:44disappointment. Yeah. Holy
2:03:47Super true.
2:03:49I mean, um, I think Naval quoted this
2:03:52blog a long time ago, but desire is a
2:03:54contract you make with yourself to be
2:03:56unhappy until you get what you want. And
2:03:57if you never if you basically know that
2:03:59you're never willing to put the work in
2:04:00to get the thing. Yep. That's an iron
2:04:02law. Like that James Clear thing is an
2:04:04absolute iron law. If you don't want to
2:04:07live the lifestyle, then release
2:04:08yourself from the desire. There is a
2:04:10path between where you are and the place
2:04:12that you want to be. Mhm. if you're not
2:04:15prepared to do that
2:04:16walk, still wanting to reach the end of
2:04:20the path is just guaranteeing that
2:04:22you're going to live an unsatisfactory
2:04:24life. And so when I hear that quote, I
2:04:27immediately go to my operational side of
2:04:28like, okay, how do I release myself from
2:04:31a desire? So I thought about that and I
2:04:34actually think it's a lot like dating.
2:04:36So hear me out on this. So, there is the
2:04:38old saying, I think it's a girl saying,
2:04:40um, well, I'm going to assume it's a
2:04:41girl saying, which is if you want to get
2:04:43over somebody, get under somebody else.
2:04:45All right? Now, there's a point to this,
2:04:47which is,
2:04:49I don't think you can release desire,
2:04:51but you can replace it. And so, it's
2:04:53like if you have a terrible breakup,
2:04:55there's basically some totem of
2:04:57reinforcement that's been removed from
2:04:58your life.
2:05:00getting over something or someone is
2:05:02simply giving getting enough exposure to
2:05:04enough new things from the time that
2:05:06you've bought back from this reinforcer
2:05:07being gone to find another reinforcer.
2:05:10Which is why I genuinely think that the
2:05:12idea of like, oh, I shouldn't date for a
2:05:13while after I get out of a breakup is
2:05:14just complete stupidity. Like why would
2:05:16you like what why what rule is there?
2:05:19Well, you have to heal.
2:05:21Healing for most people is defined as I
2:05:23find something else that brings me
2:05:25sufficient joy that my baseline returns
2:05:26to normal. But if I'm going to bring
2:05:28somebody else into my life, that
2:05:29person's also going to serve that same
2:05:30function. And so like I could I can
2:05:33replace it with tennis or gardening or
2:05:35business or just the next person I'm
2:05:36going to date. And why is one better
2:05:38than the other? To clear's uh releasing
2:05:41of desire, I think it's just choose to
2:05:44want something
2:05:46else. So if I were to say if I were to
2:05:48give someone the direction release the
2:05:49desire, I would say don't try and
2:05:51release the desire. Try and justify or
2:05:54reason why wanting something different
2:05:55is better. Well, also maybe be a little
2:05:58bit more open-minded about how that
2:06:00desire could be fulfilled. It's like,
2:06:02huh? And I, you know, to push back on
2:06:05the why you should have a little bit of
2:06:07a break between partners, I would say
2:06:09that there is a specific type of
2:06:11learning that comes, especially from
2:06:13intense and emotional experiences that
2:06:15takes a little bit of time for you to
2:06:18embibe. And that if you very quickly
2:06:20move into a new relationship, you're
2:06:23trying
2:06:25to find the direction that you're going
2:06:27in while you're also rowing the
2:06:29boat and trying to fix the holes from
2:06:31the last one. I get the sense that there
2:06:33are certain realizations that come about
2:06:35by we're often very bad at taking
2:06:38lessons from a thing while it's still
2:06:40happening. And I wonder whether you very
2:06:43quickly move into the I can't take
2:06:46lessons from this thing mode because I'm
2:06:48focused on the new thing as opposed to
2:06:51let's sit down and debrief a little bit
2:06:53after this. And what does life look
2:06:55like? Perfect example of this. Alander
2:06:57Bottom has a a beautiful insight where
2:06:59he says uh people rarely
2:07:02change often not in relationships and
2:07:05never when you ask them to. It seems
2:07:07that most people's changes in the way
2:07:09that they show up in relationships occur
2:07:10between them.
2:07:12Now I would guess that a lot of this is
2:07:15because change is very emotionally
2:07:16painful and breakups are emotionally
2:07:19painful. Therefore, people change when
2:07:20they break up. It's like my world got
2:07:23ripped out from underneath me. Mhm. But
2:07:25I do wonder whether moving on very
2:07:30quickly stops the reflective process
2:07:33that allows sense making to occur by
2:07:36immediately giving you new novel
2:07:37stimulus that is
2:07:40distracting. So I so I will I will
2:07:42challenge back um which is one um it
2:07:46assumes that we must change.
2:07:50Um, if we take that if we take that
2:07:51frame, which I wouldn't necessarily
2:07:53accept in all cases. Um, number two, uh,
2:07:57it assumes that the change that we're
2:07:59going to make in between is something
2:08:00that's going to increase the likelihood
2:08:01that we find someone that we like, which
2:08:02may or may not occur. Third, I do think
2:08:05that change would happen no matter what
2:08:07because you've you've removed somebody
2:08:09who was altering your behavior. And
2:08:11anyone who says that the person they
2:08:12date doesn't alter their behavior, like,
2:08:13I don't know what you're talking about.
2:08:14Like, of course, they they give you
2:08:16little kisses when you do stuff and they
2:08:17say thank you. Of course it you have
2:08:19reward cycles and punishment cycles that
2:08:20exist constantly and so like oh she's
2:08:22always different when she's in a
2:08:23relationship. It's because they have
2:08:24somebody else who's deliberately uh
2:08:26changing their behavior and that's
2:08:27normal and we do control and counter
2:08:29control to our partners all the time.
2:08:30People don't like using the word control
2:08:31but it's exactly what you do if you want
2:08:32your husband to pick up the socks then
2:08:33you do you say thanks and you give them
2:08:34a afterwards whatever like you
2:08:36do some sort of rewarding contingency in
2:08:38order to you know get more more of the
2:08:40type of behavior you like. And also you
2:08:41say hey don't say that when they say
2:08:42something that you they said hey are you
2:08:44going to finish your dinner and you're
2:08:45like I used to have an eating disorder
2:08:47and my friends used to say I wasn't
2:08:48eating my food blah blah blah right and
2:08:50so um with the relationship piece I
2:08:53think that you're going to change when
2:08:55you have reward or punishment stimulus
2:08:57that changes and until those things
2:08:58change nothing is going to change to
2:09:00Ellen Debot Len's name that him um and
2:09:05so if you get out of a relationship you
2:09:08will change regardless because the
2:09:10conditions have changed and so your
2:09:12behavior will change and so and all of
2:09:14these things I then posit as the
2:09:16question is like and do I need to do
2:09:19this in order to find the person that I
2:09:20want. How many people have gotten into
2:09:23relationships where they've changed the
2:09:24things that they like to do? They've
2:09:26started uh staying up late because their
2:09:27partner stays up they started getting up
2:09:29early because their partner gets up
2:09:30early. Let's say just that cuz it's kind
2:09:31of simple. And then they get out of this
2:09:34relationship and they ask themselves the
2:09:36question still going to bed late or
2:09:38waking up early, right? because they've
2:09:40habituated that type of behavior, right?
2:09:42They ask themselves, "Well, huh, I kind
2:09:44of forgot that I used to go to bed early
2:09:47or stay sleep in. I forgot that bit of
2:09:50me because for the last 12 months I've
2:09:52been in this relationship with this
2:09:54person and I adapted. We sort of met in
2:09:56the middle or maybe they really changed
2:09:57me or whatever it is." Well, is that the
2:10:00way that I want to be? Is that the
2:10:02actual change that I want to make
2:10:04or do I want to go back to or do I want
2:10:07to uh alchemize both of these things
2:10:09together and and create this this new
2:10:11world? I'm not convinced. In theory,
2:10:15maybe. In practice, no. And in practice
2:10:19for most
2:10:20people, certainly no. It takes time for
2:10:23this stuff to filter through. Yes.
2:10:27Particular landmark events that you go
2:10:29through that are very traumatic. I don't
2:10:31even think it's landmark. I think you
2:10:32can change behavior really quickly and
2:10:33it's just not a huge thing. Like Leila
2:10:36used to say in the very beginning of our
2:10:37relationship, she said, "Haha, you're
2:10:38stupid." She would make that joke and I
2:10:39say, "Hey, I don't really like that."
2:10:40And then she stopped. It's just a very
2:10:41small thing. It wasn't like this
2:10:42traumatic thing. I just said, "It's a
2:10:44preference of mine if you don't say
2:10:45that." And she said, "Okay." And then
2:10:46that was it. Um, with regards to the the
2:10:49staying up late thing, the contingency
2:10:51of reinforcement that was the other part
2:10:53partner who was there is gone. So now
2:10:57the reason that they were doing it
2:10:59before was that they didn't have this
2:11:00reinforce reinforce introduced so
2:11:02they're willing to change their behavior
2:11:03to accommodate this later you know
2:11:05timeline. We don't have transparency
2:11:06with ourselves though you know I don't
2:11:08know what that means. We do not
2:11:10see all of the reasons for our behavior
2:11:13and where they came from immediately.
2:11:16Do we ever rarely but we will get more
2:11:21with distance I think to go huh I'm no
2:11:25longer receiving the stimulus. It's like
2:11:27I tried to run on I tried to run on
2:11:29Jupiter. Jupiter was really heavy. I
2:11:31adapted my running style. Huh. I'm back
2:11:33on Earth. I need Oh, this is going to
2:11:36take a little bit of time for me to get
2:11:37back into this new running style. So the
2:11:40reason So I'm I'm I will continue to to
2:11:42die on this because I I feel no I I like
2:11:46what I'm describing has been the central
2:11:48worldview that has been responsible for
2:11:49a great deal of my material success. And
2:11:52it's rapid behavior change. Rapid
2:11:55behavior change but also being able to
2:11:57accurately view the world. At least to
2:11:59my I I think I I view it more clearly
2:12:01than I did before. and my decision
2:12:03quality has dramatically increased by
2:12:05isolating variables that are dependent
2:12:06that actually change behavior, change
2:12:08outcome. And so when you said knowing
2:12:12why, it's like a it's like a bingo red
2:12:15flag for me. Not red flag, but just like
2:12:16a, you know, pay attention thing because
2:12:18when when we say, "Oh, I figured out
2:12:21why."
2:12:22In my opinion for the vast majority of
2:12:24people when they figured out why it
2:12:26means that I have crafted a narrative
2:12:27that I accept which may or may not have
2:12:31any bearing on reality and so I focus
2:12:35purely on the observable because they
2:12:37are far more predictable in terms of
2:12:40predicting your own behavior and
2:12:41predicting other people's behavior. And
2:12:43so with regard to the relationship, it's
2:12:46like people have many counter controls
2:12:48that they do and so because of that you
2:12:50change your behavior and then all of
2:12:52those things are removed at once. Now
2:12:54were there other things that are also
2:12:56variables in your life that occur during
2:12:57that period of time? Of course. Do we
2:12:58know them all? No. And so I take the
2:13:02position that there are so many
2:13:03variables. Why do I need to know why?
2:13:07And I never will anyways. And so why
2:13:09would I waste my time trying to figure
2:13:11out whether do you think you're this way
2:13:13because your father didn't hug you
2:13:14enough? I don't know. I know that I am
2:13:16this way. Period. And might be 20
2:13:19different things because we're going to
2:13:20generalize work ethic to your dad didn't
2:13:23hug you enough when it might be like I
2:13:24write because I've had enough
2:13:26reinforcing contingencies around writing
2:13:27that I'd write and that's different than
2:13:29what I'm willing to speak which is
2:13:30different than when I do podcast which
2:13:31is different than all these others. And
2:13:33so when we get into the basically we
2:13:35extrapolate out reasoning by analogy
2:13:37works really well. When we get really
2:13:39down to what are the behaviors that
2:13:40changed when you were in the
2:13:41relationship versus not in the
2:13:42relationship and if you can get
2:13:43isolating on that which you can be
2:13:44specific about not necessarily why it
2:13:46happened but that it changed and what
2:13:48behaviors changed then you can look at
2:13:50your laundry list of okay these are the
2:13:51changes in my behavior that I have
2:13:53continued to keep post relationship. Are
2:13:56any of these uh conducive to me getting
2:13:58a more attractive or better partner in
2:14:00the future? Now, if the person that I
2:14:02was with got me to go to the gym because
2:14:04they went to the gym and then the gym
2:14:05itself became reinforcing because uh
2:14:08basically totems of reinforcement can
2:14:10shift uh over time in terms of the work
2:14:12itself can be reinforcing. I might say
2:14:15this was a laundry. This is one of the
2:14:16items that changed when I was in this
2:14:18relationship and I am okay with it. And
2:14:21so if we have that laundry list then
2:14:23again why do I need
2:14:26time? And so I anyways I I push back on
2:14:29this very hard because me discovering
2:14:31why I did something gives me zero value.
2:14:35That's interesting.
2:14:37I I would class myself as a uh
2:14:42understanding why especially around
2:14:44myself is one of the greatest sources of
2:14:46pleasure that I've got in my life. Okay.
2:14:48This be maybe where me and you differ.
2:14:50Oh no. I'm gonna we're gonna jam
2:14:51on this. I love this. Okay. So, I will
2:14:54give you I think a perfect analogy for
2:14:56this and the reason that I'm in general
2:14:59uh somebody who's not the biggest fan of
2:15:00therapy as is traditionally practiced.
2:15:03If I were playing tennis, right, and I
2:15:08went to a coach and they said,
2:15:11"Hey, I need you to change your grip
2:15:13from this to this straightforward."
2:15:16Would I spend the vast majority of that
2:15:18session with the coach being like,
2:15:19"Let's try to discover why you hold the
2:15:21grip that way.
2:15:23Who cares? I
2:15:25do. Now, when we get to
2:15:29why I used the word control before, if
2:15:32we can understand the dependent
2:15:34variables, then it means basically if
2:15:36you can predict, it means you can
2:15:37control, which people don't like that.
2:15:39But if you can predict what's going to
2:15:40happen, it means that you know what the
2:15:41variables are and you can influence
2:15:42those variables, which you can influence
2:15:43the outcome, which means you can control
2:15:44the system. And so knowing why um from a
2:15:50narrative perspective, I think again
2:15:52You'll never know why. You will have a
2:15:55narrative that you've accepted.
2:15:58And so what? Because then what do I want
2:16:00to do
2:16:01next? I only want to ch like we have a
2:16:05set of behaviors or skills that will
2:16:06increase the likelihood of goal
2:16:07achievement. Whatever that goal is,
2:16:09being spiritual, being a good husband,
2:16:10whatever it is, these behaviors will do
2:16:12that. To increase the likelihood of me
2:16:15doing these behaviors, then I have to
2:16:17have more good stuff, less bad stuff. I
2:16:19will I will die down that hill. Beyond
2:16:21that, what does anything that happened
2:16:23prior to this matter at all in so far as
2:16:26it only works if I can use that same
2:16:28variable? And then and then use it again
2:16:31to change my behavior yet again to be
2:16:32conducive to the goal. What if I love
2:16:35this Yeah, I can tell. I can tell.
2:16:37I can tell it's either the nicotine or
2:16:39or the debate. Uh so what if the actual
2:16:43outcome that you wanted was the pursuit
2:16:45of trying to work out why? Because for
2:16:48me, and tried to word that relatively
2:16:52carefully, not finding out the actual
2:16:55why, but the pursuit of trying to work
2:16:57out why. Uh it's the reason that I fell
2:17:00in love with evolutionary psychology
2:17:01because to me it started to explain why
2:17:04we are the way we are. It's one of the
2:17:06common themes in this podcast over 900
2:17:08and something episodes. It is a place
2:17:11for people to come to try and get some
2:17:13approximation of why they are the way
2:17:15they are. And even if that's wrong,
2:17:17yeah, even if it does not fully explain,
2:17:19partly
2:17:21explain, the process of that discovery
2:17:24for me is fascinating. I have a a a
2:17:26journal entry from a long time ago when
2:17:29I was on mushrooms and I was it was post
2:17:33post party or post whatever and I was
2:17:35back at the house and I had some music
2:17:37on and I was just thinking through ideas
2:17:39like this and I could feel this game of
2:17:41tennis occurring in my mind as I thought
2:17:43a thing and then I asked why and then I
2:17:45asked why and then I asked why and then
2:17:47I asked why and it felt like this sort
2:17:48of movement almost probably certainly
2:17:51was default mode off and you know
2:17:53hemispheres talking and all the rest of
2:17:55And I wrote down not what I was thinking
2:17:58about, but I wrote down the sentence. I
2:18:00love the way that my mind works because
2:18:02I like that conversation of tighter and
2:18:05tighter spirals of sort of deeper and
2:18:07deeper questions. And for me, I enjoy
2:18:10the why such. It's something that in and
2:18:14of itself brings me joy to try and work
2:18:19out why we are the way we are or why I
2:18:21am the way I am. I I wholeheartedly
2:18:23accept that learning things is
2:18:27enjoyable. And I think what you
2:18:29described more or less was that the um I
2:18:34I come purely from the perspective of
2:18:37changing behavior and the why is super
2:18:41important and not always knowable. And
2:18:45so
2:18:46I I push back on narrative so heavily
2:18:53because in a way and like take this not
2:18:56as a as a slight. I see a lot of that as
2:19:01mental masturbation. I would agree.
2:19:04And I do not decry that in any way. If
2:19:09someone wants to do something with their
2:19:10time, awesome. Play video games. Do
2:19:11whatever you want. Mhm. If we want to
2:19:14say this increases or decreases the
2:19:16likelihood that we achieve a goal, then
2:19:17that is where I will because that we can
2:19:19know. Does this increase or decrease the
2:19:20likely that we achieve a goal and the
2:19:22difficulty with ascribing why is that we
2:19:26cannot know because we cannot relive the
2:19:28same circumstances again? And so in any
2:19:30equals one situations, it has and I and
2:19:32I say this as somebody that
2:19:35um obsessed for a a long period of my
2:19:39life. Um, and this is not to say that
2:19:40now I'm better or different or anything
2:19:42like that. Um, over the wise, but when I
2:19:46the reason I have two two two three
2:19:48statements on on on my wall, the good
2:19:50day and those three. What does that
2:19:52mean? How do you know that? And why does
2:19:54it matter? And so if we say these are
2:19:58the changes that occur in this
2:19:59relationship. Okay, that's what it means
2:20:02rather than like I'm stressed now or you
2:20:04know what, she rubbed off on me because
2:20:06she was really anal. What does that
2:20:07mean? Okay, it just means that she
2:20:09counted her calories and uh I now, you
2:20:12know, when I go to a menu, I order like
2:20:13a diva. Whatever, right? Like these are
2:20:15the two behavior changes. When I say
2:20:17anal, this is what I mean. Great. Okay.
2:20:19How do you know that? Well, did I do
2:20:21that two or three times or is this every
2:20:23single time that I go out? And so, okay,
2:20:25now I know the extent to which this
2:20:27thing that I have now defined. And who
2:20:30cares? Why does that matter? I'm anal
2:20:32now. Well, anal just means I change the
2:20:34way I order. Does that matter? No. Okay.
2:20:36And so instead of trying to maybe I
2:20:40maybe it was because I sought out
2:20:43approval from her and other people
2:20:46because I have this hole inside of me
2:20:48and I I wanted to gain um some sort of
2:20:51you know in-group outgroup. I wanted to
2:20:52be accepted by her and her friends who
2:20:54also do that. I think maybe that's what
2:20:56who
2:20:58cares. And so it was that
2:21:01that's does me counting my calories and
2:21:03being a diva when I order decrease the
2:21:05likelihood that I find the next mate? If
2:21:06the answer is yes, then I'll change the
2:21:08behavior. If no, it. Interesting.
2:21:11I'll be
2:21:14uh the pursuit of the why to me improves
2:21:19my well-being and the quality of my
2:21:21well-being is a goal in and of itself.
2:21:23So let's say that one of the few goals
2:21:25that you have is to be in moment to
2:21:28moment happiness or satisfaction or
2:21:30something like that. For me, the pursuit
2:21:33of the why is a source of that. So I'm
2:21:36aware that that's like a lexical
2:21:38jiu-jitsu move, but um I've thought
2:21:40about this a lot and it's been one of
2:21:42the most sort of common themes in the
2:21:45show and uh it's even if it's pointless.
2:21:49Yeah. kind of like uh like
2:21:52skimming rocks or something that it only
2:21:54occurs for a small moment and
2:21:56accumulates nothing over time. Um I like
2:21:59it. Yeah. So uh this is the second
2:22:03half of that quote from above. The bar
2:22:07for excellence has never been so low.
2:22:09Most of your competition quits after the
2:22:11first sign of difficulty because they've
2:22:13never known what hard feels like. If
2:22:15it's hard for you, it's hard for
2:22:16everyone. And most people avoid hard
2:22:18things. which is why you can beat most
2:22:20people by just trying.
2:22:24I think the vast majority of people
2:22:25don't actually know what it looks like
2:22:26to put tremendous effort into something.
2:22:29And I think one of the most valuable
2:22:30things that the office, which now you're
2:22:32going to have, um, has given me is the
2:22:35people who now work in my proximity, one
2:22:37of the number one things that I get back
2:22:38as feedback is like, I really didn't
2:22:40understand how much he works. And like
2:22:43he doesn't stop. And it's it's easy to
2:22:46say these things and it's hard to act
2:22:48because one of the difficulty especially
2:22:51the vast majority of successful people
2:22:52have one thing in common which is
2:22:54they're consistent and consistency you
2:22:56cannot see in a
2:22:58snapshot. You can't see consistency in a
2:23:00sound bite. You can't see consistency in
2:23:02a real. And so consistency is one of
2:23:04those things I think you talked about un
2:23:05unlearnable lessons. I think they are
2:23:07difficult to learn without large amounts
2:23:10of exposure. And so those and I think
2:23:13those are the types of lessons that
2:23:14become unlearnable is that you need
2:23:16large amounts of exposure in order to
2:23:18encapsulate the lesson itself. You and
2:23:23so
2:23:24trying is one of
2:23:27those like the act of trying. Yes. And
2:23:31so I so uh Ila had a mentor of hers say
2:23:35this uh to her and I've been and it's
2:23:37it's lived rent free in my mind since
2:23:39then. Um, so we had this thing that we
2:23:41we had this house that we were pursuing
2:23:44and the and and we we ended up not
2:23:48getting the house or
2:23:51whatever. The mentor first
2:23:54said, "Are you settling or did you move
2:23:57mountains?"
2:24:00And it's just a great it's it was just a
2:24:03great visual for me in terms of like did
2:24:05you did you try or did you move the
2:24:08world to make it happen? And
2:24:11when you think about like the extreme
2:24:13versions of this which is maybe the
2:24:14person that you care about most in the
2:24:16world dies if you don't the amount of
2:24:19options of action that open up is
2:24:23dramatic. And I think people are so
2:24:27constrained in their thinking of what
2:24:28level of effort is because they haven't
2:24:30considered what trading way more for
2:24:32that thing is. But they would be they
2:24:34would be willing to trade far more for
2:24:37that thing if the trade were clear. But
2:24:39because they've never tried hard at
2:24:41anything, they just think, "Oh, this is
2:24:44what trying looks like." Which might be
2:24:46like the occasional Google search and a
2:24:48couple hours a week of like watching
2:24:50some videos on YouTube on something.
2:24:51It's like that is not trying. Like that
2:24:54is not trying. Like if you cannot count
2:24:56the amount of repetitions that you're
2:24:57having in the hundreds, that is not
2:25:00trying. And like and and the the longer
2:25:03I've been doing stuff,
2:25:06um that's that's you know, yielded
2:25:08material reward, the the greater my
2:25:10history of delay on me getting what I
2:25:14want with volume. And so it's like I
2:25:16know that this thing like everything in
2:25:19my life, volume negates luck. You know,
2:25:22violence is the answer. Like these are
2:25:23sayings that are plastered around the
2:25:24wall of this office because they've been
2:25:26so true for me that you can brute force
2:25:29what you want into reality. And yes,
2:25:31today you know we talked about trades
2:25:33that we're not willing to make. But if
2:25:35you want something
2:25:39like did you move mountains?
2:25:42Well, the trades that you're not willing
2:25:44to make is you saying I don't want to
2:25:45move that mountain. And I think and
2:25:47that's and that's perfectly acceptable.
2:25:50Yes. You might say, uh, I could do like
2:25:53I, so I thought, so because she posed
2:25:55that question, I thought about all these
2:25:57other things that I could do. I was
2:25:58like, well, I could offer an extra $20
2:26:00million for the house. That would
2:26:02probably get me the house. Okay. Am I
2:26:06willing to do that? No. Okay, what else?
2:26:07I was like, I could like I had I was
2:26:09like completely deconstrained thinking.
2:26:11I was like, could I pay somebody to
2:26:15Yeah. Well, that that was a thought, but
2:26:16I was going to say that one. um could I
2:26:20um pay someone to, you know, we could
2:26:22figure out I could have a private
2:26:23investigator figure out when basically
2:26:25tail them uh the other buyer who's
2:26:27thinking about buying the home and uh
2:26:29when they're visiting it have crime
2:26:32occur next to them or near them or in
2:26:35that vicinity to be like oh this is not
2:26:37a safe area right like what and I was
2:26:39like oh man I completely opened up my
2:26:42now am I willing to do that no but it it
2:26:45completely deconstrained my thinking
2:26:46when I raise the bar of, okay, let's say
2:26:48I would pay anything. And let's start at
2:26:51this guarantees me success. Okay, I'm
2:26:53not willing to I'm not willing to to pay
2:26:55that. Okay, well this also pretty close
2:26:58to guaranteeing me success. Am I willing
2:27:00to pay that? No. Well, this one still
2:27:02guarantees me. Oh, I'm willing to pay
2:27:04that. And so it starts at goal
2:27:07achievement and then works backwards on
2:27:09price rather than starting with price.
2:27:12You negotiate you negotiate the cost
2:27:14with yourself backwards from the assumed
2:27:16success which is why do so much volume
2:27:20it would be unreasonable that you were
2:27:21successful.
2:27:23I think the bar being set incredibly low
2:27:26is just a it's such a perennial
2:27:29truth and there's sort of two things
2:27:31happening at once here. One
2:27:33is you can work way harder than you
2:27:36think you can. Yes. And another one is
2:27:40most people work so not hard that even a
2:27:43small amount of working hard puts you
2:27:46into a rarified strata of people. And
2:27:48both of those things are true at the
2:27:49same time. Right. Yeah. And I'll add a
2:27:51third one. And the bigger the goal is,
2:27:53the fewer the people who are pursuing it
2:27:55just because they think it is a big goal
2:27:57and therefore it must be harder to
2:27:58achieve. That's the fairest thing about
2:28:00most people try to achieve mediocre
2:28:02goals which makes them the most competed
2:28:03for and they assume that how difficult
2:28:05it is to compete for that goal must
2:28:07therefore extrapolate proportionally on
2:28:09the consistency point. No one cheers you
2:28:11for not drinking for a day, not smoking
2:28:14on a long drive or not overeating for
2:28:15one night. No single workout or meal is
2:28:18ever impressive on its own. The reason
2:28:19so few people understand success is
2:28:22consistency never looks impressive in
2:28:23the moment only at the end. the point
2:28:27that you were making before around
2:28:30um you don't get to see the process. You
2:28:33don't get to see what trying looks like,
2:28:35right? Trying is opaque. Outcomes are
2:28:38obvious. What you have done is you have
2:28:40made what was previously process into an
2:28:44observable outcome at least a little
2:28:45bit. Fact, Alex spends a lot of time in
2:28:47his office. Let's say I mean I assume
2:28:49that he's working. I already knew the
2:28:51output of work that he was getting out
2:28:53of him. But now I've actually seen the
2:28:55process that he goes through in order to
2:28:56be able to get that. And unless you are
2:29:00moment by moment turning your process
2:29:02into some kind of an outcome, live
2:29:04streaming it, tracking it, journaling
2:29:06publicly or privately or whatever, uh,
2:29:09no one ever actually gets to see the
2:29:10inputs, only the outcomes. And no one
2:29:13knows that's real impressive. Maybe it
2:29:16came easily to him. Yeah. Maybe he's
2:29:18able to crack it out in half an hour.
2:29:19Maybe he's got a team of people that do
2:29:21it on his behalf. Maybe he, maybe he,
2:29:23maybe, maybe. And
2:29:27yeah, you can try way harder than you
2:29:29think you can. And most people aren't
2:29:31trying at
2:29:32all. I'll give a tactical thing that has
2:29:35helped for trying. And like this is
2:29:37actually one of those more rocky cuts
2:29:38scene type things. But when you work,
2:29:43and you actually are working, you're
2:29:45writing the emails that you need to
2:29:46write, you're you're you're preparing
2:29:47for the podcast, you're doing that that
2:29:49work that you know is not short work.
2:29:51It's this is going to take me 2 hours.
2:29:52This is going to take me 4 hours. When
2:29:55you get to the end of that and you're
2:29:56like, man, I'm kicked. You know, I'm
2:29:59this, you know, I I earned my shower
2:30:02today. I think the difference is that at
2:30:05that point, you go, you grab a bottle of
2:30:07water and then you look at your to-do
2:30:09list at the next large thing and say,
2:30:11"Great, let's start on this." And I
2:30:14think people who don't witness that
2:30:16happen, they don't see 4 hours. And this
2:30:18is what working side by side someone can
2:30:20do. I remember when I we just have we
2:30:22have a new uh director of marketing uh
2:30:24in his first week uh we needed to we
2:30:27needed to write some massive amount of
2:30:29stuff and um he was like okay so we have
2:30:32to do this and I was like great pull up
2:30:34a document let's go and he was like oh
2:30:36like now and I was like you got
2:30:37something else to do and he was like oh
2:30:39I mean I I no okay yeah let's let's do
2:30:41it now and then we shared screen for
2:30:43eight hours uh and then we finished it
2:30:45and he was like oh wow I was like great
2:30:47what's the next thing and he was
2:30:50Oh yeah. Uh we we have this other thing
2:30:52I guess we can do too. And it was and I
2:30:55could see his like perception on on the
2:30:58level of work shifting in real time. And
2:31:01so if you have the opportunity to work
2:31:03with anyone that is exceptional at
2:31:07anything, especially in that sub30
2:31:10crowd, for the love of God, move across
2:31:13the
2:31:14country, live in a tiny apartment, live
2:31:17far below your means, work for free if
2:31:20you have to because the skill that you
2:31:21will get from learning the unlearnable
2:31:23or the difficult to learn lessons cuz I
2:31:26it is pathier to say unlearning, but
2:31:28like it's harder to learn these lessons
2:31:30if If you can get in proximity, you will
2:31:31learn so much so much faster. Like if
2:31:34you want to time warp yourself, you can
2:31:36try and observe the little bits and
2:31:38nuggets and crumbs from videos,
2:31:40podcasts, things like this. Cuz all
2:31:41we're doing is trying to describe
2:31:43scenarios. But when you live them, it
2:31:46completely changes you forever. Like if
2:31:48you want to win, Angela Duckworth talked
2:31:49about this. The number one most
2:31:51consistent way to become a champion is
2:31:53join a team of champions.
2:31:56Have I given you my 2D lessons, 3D
2:31:58lessons thing? No, but I Very cool. So,
2:32:00uh, Bill Perkins wrote a book called Die
2:32:02with Zero. Great book. Great book.
2:32:04Three-hour lesson. Everyone should go
2:32:05and get it. You'll be far less motivated
2:32:06afterwards. Keep going. Yes, that's
2:32:08true. But he's fun and he is an
2:32:10important redress to people that
2:32:13struggle to spend money uh and struggle
2:32:15to have fun. So, Bill Perkins writes
2:32:18this book, Die with Zero. I bring him on
2:32:20the podcast. The book is about how to
2:32:22use your money in a manner that gives
2:32:25you a life that you will enjoy at any
2:32:26level of wealth.
2:32:28That's a 2D lesson. Even speaking to him
2:32:32on the podcast was largely a 2D lesson.
2:32:35We finish up the podcast and he says,
2:32:37"What are you doing now?" And I said,
2:32:39"Well, I was going to go home and write
2:32:41the show notes for this." Cuz it was me,
2:32:43an editor, and a Mormon assistant in a
2:32:45Facebook Messenger chat. That was our
2:32:46business at at this stage. And he said,
2:32:49"Well, do you want to go wake surfing?
2:32:51Can you wake surf?" It's like, "Yeah, I
2:32:52can wake surf." When do you want to go
2:32:54wake surfing? Like when now? Uh, yeah.
2:32:58Okay. I I mean, we've just been on a
2:33:00podcast for 2 hours, 3 hours. It's the
2:33:02middle of the afternoon. So, okay, no
2:33:03worries. We go downstairs. His driver's
2:33:05outside waiting for us. We get into the
2:33:07car. We get to Austin 360 bridge. His
2:33:09boat captain is there on the boat with
2:33:11shorts for both of us and towels and
2:33:13food and snacks and and uh
2:33:16caffeine. And immediately we're wakeing
2:33:19within 30 minutes of having finished the
2:33:20podcast. And I was like, 3D lesson, 2D
2:33:23lesson, reading the book, 3D lesson,
2:33:25going to Bill's house and seeing his
2:33:26staff. Like, huh, this guy puts his
2:33:28money where his mouth is. And the
2:33:31difference for exactly what you're
2:33:33talking about, 2D lesson, 3D lesson,
2:33:36the value of narrative.
2:33:39Yeah, there are two types of people.
2:33:42Those who want to know more and those
2:33:44who want to defend what they already
2:33:46know. M so many people are afraid of
2:33:48changing their mind when most of their
2:33:50beliefs aren't even theirs to begin
2:33:52with.
2:33:55Man, I got some good quotes. That first
2:33:57one's Morgan Hustle, so you can go
2:33:59yourself. Yeah. Um No, cuz I like it.
2:34:01It's interesting that we said that cuz I
2:34:02was like, man, I was like, I don't
2:34:04even remember that That's why.
2:34:06Yeah. Uh there's
2:34:07a a idea called the second half is Yeah,
2:34:11I did write. Yeah. Yeah. Uh do you know
2:34:13what the dead internet theory is? No. Uh
2:34:16over time so much content on the
2:34:18internet is going to be created by AI
2:34:20and bots that nothing is going to be
2:34:23left that's userenerated. Essentially
2:34:25it's going to be a rounding error of
2:34:26that. It's dead internet theory.
2:34:29I get the sense that the people who are
2:34:32concerned about dead internet theory
2:34:33should have been concerned a long time
2:34:34ago given that most people are
2:34:36propagating ideas that they didn't even
2:34:38come up with and can't explain. It's
2:34:39like you're worried about mindless
2:34:42robotic creatures producing things on
2:34:45the internet that you might have to
2:34:48read. Have you seen what most people put
2:34:51on the internet and ask them about where
2:34:53they got that idea from? So yeah, I
2:34:55think the dead internet theories already
2:34:57occurred. It's just it's as Naval says,
2:35:00people failing the touring test in
2:35:01reverse.
2:35:05People failing the touring test in
2:35:07reverse. So they behave like
2:35:10robots.
2:35:13H the second half of the quote was what?
2:35:16So many people are afraid of changing
2:35:18their mind when most of their beliefs
2:35:19aren't even theirs to begin with.
2:35:22So there's this this quote by Marcus
2:35:24Aurelius that I have I wrote I wrote on
2:35:27the the executive. How much wall
2:35:29space have you got? It's all whiteboard.
2:35:31Yeah, there's a lot.
2:35:33Um, and it was uh, what are you so
2:35:36afraid of losing when nothing in this
2:35:38world belongs to you? And I read that
2:35:39and I was like, that's good. And
2:35:42so like there's also things, but there's
2:35:45also beliefs. Like what are we so afraid
2:35:46of? Because every belief that we have
2:35:48like we got it like we come as a blank
2:35:50slate right now. You could say, you
2:35:52know, I combined three things and made
2:35:53it my own. You know, I think you've
2:35:56you've you've read enough quotes in this
2:35:57world that like most interesting things
2:35:59have already been said.
2:36:01Um, but the ability to change your mind,
2:36:05um, like if you can't if you can't
2:36:06explain why you believe what you
2:36:07believe, um, then it isn't your belief.
2:36:10It is someone else's. And what's weird
2:36:12about that is that people are willing to
2:36:13defend someone else's belief, but
2:36:15they're not willing to accept someone
2:36:16else's belief. It's just that it's just
2:36:18one step removed. I'm talking to you and
2:36:20it's your belief. And I'm defending
2:36:22another person's belief, but it's mine
2:36:23right now, but it's not mine. Mhm. And
2:36:26I, you know, strong beliefs loosely held
2:36:29is I think a saying in the Y cominator
2:36:31world. Um like before I get this like
2:36:34big trigger effect of like h says that I
2:36:38am wrong and therefore he is calling me
2:36:40stupid and I'm inadequate and I will die
2:36:41because I will you like and you
2:36:43extrapolate it to everything. Um I think
2:36:45the quick check of like why do like what
2:36:48if he's right? And I think that's a
2:36:50great perspective. I remember having my
2:36:52own mind changed on something like this.
2:36:53I had to do a debate um when I was in
2:36:55high school for affirmative action and
2:36:57so I was a very pro- affirmative action
2:36:59guy uh going into that debate. I had to
2:37:02argue the opposite perspective for the
2:37:03debate. That's cool. And by uh and that
2:37:07was I think I think it was one of the
2:37:08requirements that teachers everyone had
2:37:09to say what side they were on and they
2:37:10just flipped it. Um which was amazing
2:37:12teaching by the way. Yeah, it's really
2:37:13cool. Um and at the end of the whole
2:37:16thing I was like I was wrong. I actually
2:37:19think this hurts people more than it
2:37:20helps people. And like I had all these I
2:37:22had all this reasoning behind it. Um and
2:37:24I I'll tell you a completely different
2:37:26scenario of this in terms of questioning
2:37:28our beliefs. So in in the gym world,
2:37:32which is where I came from, um I
2:37:34remember a period of time where I saw
2:37:37people work out and I would I would
2:37:38judge them and I'd be like, "That guy's
2:37:40form is bad or he's doing too much
2:37:41volume or he's not he's not, you know,
2:37:43squeezing in the right way, whatever."
2:37:45And then I learned more and then learned
2:37:47that that, you know, thing that I was
2:37:50seeing some guy do actually was more
2:37:51effective and my thing was not as
2:37:53effective. And then a few years passed
2:37:56and then I learned that the original
2:37:57thing that I said was actually the thing
2:37:59that mattered. And then I learned even
2:38:01more and it was like, oh, so all of
2:38:04these things have different rates of
2:38:06progress based on uh quote efficacy, but
2:38:10all of us eventually cap out at our
2:38:11genetic max. And so all we're really
2:38:13debating, all we're really debating here
2:38:15is how quickly we reach our genetic max.
2:38:18And if I enjoy training, wouldn't I
2:38:19rather have longer progress over an
2:38:22extended period of time? So then which
2:38:23one is better? Huh? And so it's just
2:38:27like and and basically having myself and
2:38:29luckily for me at least um each of those
2:38:32times where I quote learned that I was
2:38:33wrong it was in silence and I after like
2:38:36the third or fourth time of this where
2:38:38it got flipped again and again I was
2:38:40like you know maybe I should back off a
2:38:43little bit. Just be humble. Yeah. Like
2:38:47I'm just going to exercise the way I
2:38:48like to. And kind of like the pursuit of
2:38:50why for you like I I like training this
2:38:52way. I can't really explain it too well.
2:38:53It just seems to give me joy. Yeah.
2:38:54Right. Yep. Yeah. Uh there's this idea
2:38:57from Gwindogen. Can I add something to
2:38:58this which is I saw this uh this yacht
2:39:02and it had the because every yacht names
2:39:03are always like wild, right? And it said
2:39:06um don't analyze your pleasures.
2:39:10What's that mean to you?
2:39:13He used the word analyze, but I think
2:39:14judge is the right is the word that he
2:39:16that he that he I'm assuming it was he
2:39:17cuz this thing makes you feel good.
2:39:19Yeah.
2:39:21Don't don't question it. Don't worry
2:39:22about it. Just let it be. Yeah. That's
2:39:23really cool. That is really really cool.
2:39:25Like don't
2:39:26sec it's like the suffer like only
2:39:29suffer once like don't judge this thing
2:39:31went well sure I mean just enjoy it
2:39:34enjoy it. Uh Gwinder Bogle's got this
2:39:36idea two-step flow theory. Most people's
2:39:39opinions are copied from their favorite
2:39:40influencers who in turn copy the
2:39:42opinions of their favorite mass media.
2:39:44As such politics is largely a battle
2:39:46between two armies of puppets being
2:39:48ventriloquised by a handful of actual
2:39:50thinkers. And that's the you defend uh
2:39:53an opinion. So many people are afraid of
2:39:55changing their mind when most of their
2:39:56beliefs aren't even theirs to begin
2:39:57with. And there's people who want to
2:39:59know more and those who want to defend
2:40:00what they already believe. Oh, so
2:40:02interesting because it was kind of like
2:40:03this is like kind of like the Mark
2:40:04Manson quote. I thought it was going to
2:40:05go in a different direction. So I So
2:40:08based on that premise, my expected
2:40:10outcome was um these people copy the
2:40:14behaviors of their favorite influencers
2:40:16and the influencers are using the most
2:40:18tested thing that the masses have said
2:40:20is the highest performing version of
2:40:22those. Oh, okay. So it's like a
2:40:23means-ested outcome. It's like, oh, the
2:40:25best rose to the top and then
2:40:26everybody's copying that. Well, I mean,
2:40:28maybe, but I think that the point here
2:40:31is that original thinking is very rare.
2:40:33Yeah. and that you have it's maybe one
2:40:37of the reasons why you get conceptual
2:40:38inertia and stuff takes a very long time
2:40:40to change even after a heliocentric
2:40:44version of the universe is you
2:40:46know turned around you have a long time
2:40:50for humans to catch up and I wonder
2:40:51whether this plays back into the breakup
2:40:53thing like there's just this
2:40:55conceptual inertia sometimes thought
2:40:59patterns for someone who has trained it
2:41:01perhaps be able to change like that. But
2:41:04me when you start to scale that
2:41:06across an entire society and media and
2:41:08legislation and government and
2:41:09expectation and religion
2:41:11and what what is it? Uh a lumbering
2:41:15behemoth that sort of drags its feet. We
2:41:18end up with
2:41:21that thinking is hard which is why the
2:41:26vast majority of people delegate
2:41:30it. And I and what's really interesting
2:41:32and I think you had George Mack and this
2:41:34is his whole thing with high agency. Y
2:41:37like you can you can be exceptional by
2:41:40just actually trying to come up with
2:41:42your own opinions like and and starting
2:41:45with what do we what are the few things
2:41:47we know which is you know reasoning from
2:41:48first principles which people say over
2:41:50and over again but don't know what
2:41:51reasoning from first principles is to
2:41:53begin with which is we start with the
2:41:54facts the things that we are obser in
2:41:55the observable universe and we only go
2:41:57from there and we build on that and if
2:42:00we if we arrive at our current thing
2:42:01then I will also agree with it if I
2:42:03don't arrive at the current thing then
2:42:05I'll arrive at somewhere else and then
2:42:06I'll have reasoning to believe that
2:42:09thing. And the thing is is that if you
2:42:11do reason from first principles, it does
2:42:13give you the ability to sustain the
2:42:15course for an extended period of time
2:42:17because your logic is sound. And so you
2:42:19can look at everyone and there's one of
2:42:21my favorite memes. I have like my two
2:42:22favorite memes of all time. Um, and one
2:42:25of them is there's this one dude and
2:42:27they've probably seen it with in front
2:42:28of like a zillion little heads that are
2:42:30going the other way and he says, "Yes,
2:42:33you're all wrong." And I I love that
2:42:35meme because to me it's like that meme
2:42:37is agency. It's like I know I don't know
2:42:40why you all believe what you believe,
2:42:42but I know why I believe what I believe.
2:42:44And until I have observable evidence
2:42:48that somehow contradicts my the stack
2:42:52that has built this
2:42:53belief, this is what I'm going with. The
2:42:56problem is that this takes time to do
2:42:58that research, to do that thinking and
2:42:59and and come to it. Whereas and as much
2:43:02as we can uh you know uh throw shade at
2:43:05people who delegate decision-m we all do
2:43:07because you can't actually derive you
2:43:08don't have enough time to first yeah you
2:43:12don't have enough time. So we have to
2:43:13just be more purposeful about what are
2:43:15what are the beliefs that I'm actually
2:43:16like what hills will I die on? So I will
2:43:18die on my hill of of of behavior change
2:43:20because that is what I've spent a huge
2:43:21amount of my time you know thinking
2:43:22about. Um, but if if if it's around food
2:43:25stuff, I'm like, I don't know. Like, and
2:43:27I was in the and I was in the business
2:43:28for for 13 years. Like, I was in the
2:43:30business for a long time. Um, you know,
2:43:32around fitness and nutrition and things
2:43:34like that. But even then, it's like I
2:43:35you know what, this guy's Dr. Mike's
2:43:38smart and I believe that he spent his
2:43:41time looking at all this stuff. So, I'm
2:43:43just going to delegate thinking to him.
2:43:44Incentives are aligned. Yeah. If he
2:43:46doesn't get people leaner or more
2:43:48muscular, then his business falls apart.
2:43:51pretty expertise.
2:43:53Yeah. Uh the fastest growth periods are
2:43:56often the most miserable. If you want
2:43:58progress, get used to pain. The worst
2:44:01thing that's ever happened to you is the
2:44:02worst thing that's ever happened to you.
2:44:04The hardest you've ever worked is the
2:44:05hardest you've ever worked. Every new
2:44:07challenge shows you a new territory you
2:44:08were scared of but survived. Every time
2:44:10you break a new limit, you now know you
2:44:12have the capacity to handle more than
2:44:14you ever did before. It's inverse PTSD,
2:44:17like workload exposure therapy, that
2:44:20teaches you, "Oh, I've been here before
2:44:22and I didn't die. This is okay."
2:44:27So, one of my training partners, what he
2:44:29likes me to tell him when he's in a hard
2:44:31set is, "You're
2:44:34fine." That's what he likes me to tell
2:44:36him. So, he's he's right at those money
2:44:38sets where you're like, "I'm dying right
2:44:39now." And you're like, "You're fine. Not
2:44:41keep going. You got this. It's and a lot
2:44:43of people like that. He's like, "You're
2:44:45fine. You're
2:44:46fine." And I think that that's probably
2:44:49what he tells himself when he's going
2:44:51through those harder times because I um
2:44:53so when I was back in in in the
2:44:54fraternity days, um I was in the SEC,
2:44:58which is, you know, the South. Um and
2:45:00they were notorious for like heavy
2:45:02hazing. And so I was going to join as a
2:45:04pledge. And so I called my dad up and I
2:45:06was like, "Hey, you know, I don't know
2:45:07what's going to happen." Blah blah blah.
2:45:08And he said, he said this to me, which
2:45:10actually was one of the strongest things
2:45:12that was my frame going into it because
2:45:14of what he said. He said, he said, there
2:45:17is nothing that they can do to you that
2:45:20you have not already had worse
2:45:22happen. And it was this great like, huh,
2:45:26they can't do anything worse than what
2:45:28I've already had happen. And so going
2:45:30into all of these, it was this very
2:45:31comical like, oh my god, I was like,
2:45:34this is so much not as bad as this other
2:45:36stuff I've had to go through. And I
2:45:38think that um to to your point of like
2:45:41you have only worked as hard as you've
2:45:42ever worked. Um the the frame of I can
2:45:47stand it because I am not dead. I am
2:45:50living proof every day that I have stood
2:45:52withtood everything that I have been
2:45:54through which I think almost all of us
2:45:56could probably give ourselves a little
2:45:58bit more credit. Um and the day that you
2:46:00can't stand it anymore you won't have
2:46:02to. What would you have said if they
2:46:04could have done something worse to you
2:46:05than what had already happened to Am I
2:46:07dead? Guess what? I have a new bar that
2:46:09I know that I can't stand. Yeah. Yeah.
2:46:11More evidence. That's the new territory
2:46:13that you go through. It's a that sort of
2:46:16safety thing, I think, of you're okay.
2:46:20This is fine. Yeah. You're fine. Yep.
2:46:23It's a It's a a lovely bit of
2:46:24reassurance. And I wonder whether a lot
2:46:28of that comes down to control. just this
2:46:30sense
2:46:31that even if this is a new territory
2:46:34like your capacity to cope with it still
2:46:36exists and that in that there is a kind
2:46:39of there is a kind of control that you
2:46:41have or maybe it's not a direct control
2:46:43but it's certainly a
2:46:46uh not a sense of lack of control right
2:46:49or not a sense of lack of outcome
2:47:00I'm trying to unpack what you said.
2:47:04When you reassure somebody that they're
2:47:07fine Mhm.
2:47:10what it tells them is even if this is
2:47:13something which is novel or outside the
2:47:15bounds of your current model, it's
2:47:17something that you can handle. Mhm. I
2:47:19think that's where we're trying to get
2:47:22to. You have evidence that you have. So,
2:47:25this would be we will generalize your
2:47:29history to this novel situation and it
2:47:33also applies. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
2:47:35Yes. You've been through breakups
2:47:38before. You'll get through this one.
2:47:40Mhm. Even if this one's worse. Mhm. Even
2:47:43if this one's worse. And maybe it's got
2:47:44nothing to do with the breakup. Maybe it
2:47:46was to do with the way that you handled
2:47:47that change in career. Maybe it's not
2:47:49even to do with any one thing. Maybe
2:47:50it's the fact that you've handled all of
2:47:52your life put together up to right now
2:47:55is 50% of the suffering that you're
2:47:57going to get and the other 50% is going
2:47:58to come from this one
2:47:59thing. Or maybe it's you've this is 99%
2:48:05of the suffering is coming from this one
2:48:06thing. But in the 1% that you've had so
2:48:09far, that is the only evidence that
2:48:11you've got. I reckon that you still got
2:48:13this. There's this uh idea, I might have
2:48:15told you this before, but uh a friend of
2:48:17mine told me about a time that he went
2:48:20through uh a really rough period sort of
2:48:23public scrutiny and and and lots of bad
2:48:25things happening to him. And he said,
2:48:29"All my life, I was scared that I was a
2:48:30coward."
2:48:32I was terrified that I was a coward,
2:48:34that I didn't have bravery. And I think
2:48:36of myself as a hard man. I hang around
2:48:37with hard men. I do hard men things.
2:48:40I'd tested myself, but I'd only ever
2:48:42really tested
2:48:44myself under my own valition and in my
2:48:47own control.
2:48:49And one
2:48:51day
2:48:53I thought,
2:48:55huh, the world's going to test me in a
2:48:57manner that I didn't get to choose, and
2:48:59it's going to test me at a velocity that
2:49:01I wasn't prepared for. He used this
2:49:04sentence I adore. He said, "I
2:49:07could always hear my better self
2:49:08clearing his throat in the room next
2:49:13door." Could always hear my better self
2:49:15clearing his throat in the room next
2:49:16door. And then his wall came crashing
2:49:18down. It's like, and I wondered whether
2:49:22or not that guy next door was going to
2:49:24stop coughing and kick the door
2:49:25in. And sure enough, he
2:49:28did. And it's this lovely explanation of
2:49:32the difference between chosen and
2:49:33unchosen suffering. Mhm. It was one of
2:49:36the criticisms I had that everybody made
2:49:38around CrossFit. Uh that you know
2:49:42training so hard you know the Ryan
2:49:44Fisher like world of this like dude you
2:49:46made yourself pass out from a
2:49:48heat stroke in a
2:49:50competition but even though that is
2:49:53unbelievably extreme and really really
2:49:54impressive. Let's make no bones about
2:49:56it. You chose to be there. You chose to
2:50:00do that pursuit.
2:50:02What if I said you need to lie on the
2:50:04couch for 3 weeks and not train? How
2:50:07hard would that be? That's the
2:50:09difference between chosen and unchosen
2:50:10suffering. And the weird thing is that
2:50:12you can't choose unchosen suffering.
2:50:14It's very difficult unless you throw
2:50:16yourself into kind of chaos, you know,
2:50:18like flicking yourself like
2:50:19throwing yourself off a cliff is like,
2:50:20well, I don't know how this is going to
2:50:21go.
2:50:23Uh, so yeah, the clearing my throat
2:50:26clearing his throat in the room next
2:50:27door is a wonderful visual. I
2:50:29have two thoughts on this. So number one
2:50:32is
2:50:33that one of the strongest reframes for
2:50:35for suffering is that it gives you the
2:50:37opportunity to create evidence of the
2:50:39person who you want to be. And so it's
2:50:41like I cannot say that I'm the type of
2:50:44man who can withstand hard things
2:50:47without having gone through hard things.
2:50:49And so this hard thing that has occurred
2:50:52that was not of my choice can still be
2:50:55something that serves me and my ultimate
2:50:56goal to become the type of man who can
2:50:58do these things. And so reframing
2:51:00suffering as opportunity to create more
2:51:02proof I think is really really strong
2:51:08because we are ultimately just the
2:51:11behaviors that we do. But we also
2:51:13ascribe our narratives to why we do
2:51:15those things which um may or may not be
2:51:17true but we do ascribe those narratives.
2:51:19And so being able to say like this is
2:51:22going to be an amazing story was one of
2:51:24the things that got me through the
2:51:26earlier parts of the gym days when there
2:51:27wasn't any evidence and I could say hey
2:51:29this was many years of my life because
2:51:31if it had happened overnight how
2:51:33unrelatable would that story be and the
2:51:36reason that we don't tell stories of the
2:51:37the prince who just goes up to the girl
2:51:40and she says yes and they lived happily
2:51:41ever after is a very terrible story. And
2:51:44so I think at the end of our lives, we
2:51:45would much rather have the the twists
2:51:48and the turns and the the depths of
2:51:50character and the and then the triumph
2:51:51and then the and then and like this is
2:51:54is a story that's far more interesting
2:51:56than this. Dude, I had Jeffrey Kenberg
2:51:58on the show the other day. Do you know
2:51:59who that is? Guy that founded DreamWorks
2:52:01with Stephen Spielberg. Oh, cool. The
2:52:03dude that did Lion King. Oh, amazing.
2:52:05And uh like every big Disney
2:52:08movie. He's a legend. And uh I asked
2:52:10him, "What did you learn about
2:52:11storytelling?" He says, "Story is only
2:52:13as good as it villains." Oh, yeah. I
2:52:16mean, the Joker in in Dark Knight, I
2:52:18mean, it's just like he made the movie.
2:52:20And another way to put that would be the
2:52:21story is only as good as it stakes.
2:52:23Yeah. The bigger the monster, the more
2:52:25epic the hero. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
2:52:28Find a woman who kills drama instead of
2:52:29starting it, makes life quieter, not
2:52:32louder, tells you you're better than
2:52:34these guys, you can beat them, and wants
2:52:36you to win even more than you do. then
2:52:39become the man required to attract that
2:52:41woman and marry her the moment you find
2:52:43her.
2:52:45Yeah, that was just a tweet about my
2:52:48life.
2:52:55Um when I was debating uh whether I
2:52:58should marry Leila, I had a mentor who I
2:53:03reached out to and I was like, "Hey,
2:53:04what do you think?" Um, and I was
2:53:06actually like just not sure. I just
2:53:08honestly came in with like open hands
2:53:09here. I was like, I don't know. Um,
2:53:11because my relationship with Ila was
2:53:12different than any other relationship
2:53:13that I had been in before. And he said,
2:53:17look at your
2:53:18stats. And this is probably the most
2:53:20hormosian of of of of love story
2:53:25decisions. But he was like, "Your
2:53:28business is up. You're eating better.
2:53:31You're working out. you are less
2:53:34stressed than you were. And she has done
2:53:37all of these things to create the space
2:53:39for you to do that. And when I
2:53:42translated into like what has changed
2:53:43about my life rather than, you know, do
2:53:46I feel the chemical compound of whatever
2:53:49um it actually made it a much easier
2:53:51decision for me to say, you know what,
2:53:54this makes sense, which was, by the way,
2:53:55my proposal to Laya. I think it would
2:53:57make sense if we got married was my
2:53:58actual um which wasn't a question. It
2:54:00was a statement. She was like, "Is that
2:54:03a proposal?" And I was like, "Well, are
2:54:05you saying yes?" And she was like,
2:54:07"Yeah." And I was like, "Okay, then we
2:54:08need to get you a ring." And that was
2:54:10that was that was our proposal. There
2:54:12was there was there Yeah. So that's
2:54:14Heros's romance. But anyways, um I think
2:54:20that I think a lot of people chase chase
2:54:24the um the the fireworks rather than the
2:54:29the the coal the coal furnace that takes
2:54:32a long time to to heat up, but then it
2:54:33just it keeps it keeps going and it can
2:54:37power for a much longer time during good
2:54:40times and bad times. Because if it makes
2:54:42sense, if it makes sense without
2:54:45emotion, then it will make sense when
2:54:47the emotions are gone.
2:54:50Yeah, that's an interesting assessment
2:54:52of the way that the human attachment
2:54:54system works that basically you have
2:54:58sanity,
2:55:00insanity, sanity again.
2:55:03Uh, and you should, everybody should see
2:55:06themselves as potential future drug
2:55:09addicts that are playing around with
2:55:12maybe one of the most powerful
2:55:13substances on the planet. The only issue
2:55:16is that it's endogenously created inside
2:55:17of you as opposed to exogenously given
2:55:19to you by a guy in a
2:55:21BMW. That's what falling in love is.
2:55:23Falling in love is choosing to deal
2:55:26yourself drugs for between 6 and 24
2:55:28months. Yeah.
2:55:30During that time, you cannot trust your
2:55:32own decision-m. So, you need to make as
2:55:36rational of a decision up front
2:55:40in the belief that that will be where
2:55:42you end up on the other side of this
2:55:46window. For the terminology, it's the
2:55:48passionate versus the companionate
2:55:50attachment system. It's because
2:55:51serotonin gets dropped in the brain
2:55:53because you're just dopamine,
2:55:54epinephrine, norepinephrine.
2:55:56drive, drive, drive, and then you don't
2:55:58sleep, you don't eat, you're like, "Oh
2:55:59my god, she's amazing." He like come out
2:56:01of it 24 months later, you're like,
2:56:02"What the was that?" And if you're
2:56:04not careful, you know, in a
2:56:05relationship, in a house with a
2:56:08golden retriever and maybe a ring and
2:56:09maybe a kid with a person who you don't
2:56:12really like all that much and made your
2:56:14stats go down. Do you ever hear the uh
2:56:17diary entry that Charles Darwin wrote
2:56:19when he was unsure about whether or not
2:56:21to get married? Yes. But please, but you
2:56:24could recap it. sick. The
2:56:26document has so Darwin's unsure about
2:56:29whether or not he should get married, so
2:56:30he makes a list. The document has two
2:56:32columns, one labeled marry, one labeled
2:56:34not marry. And above them, circled are
2:56:36the words this is the question. On the
2:56:39promarriage side of the equation were
2:56:41children if it pleased God, constant
2:56:43companion and friend in old age who will
2:56:45feel interested in one object to be
2:56:47beloved and played with. After
2:56:49reflection of an unknown length, he
2:56:51modified the foregoing sentence with
2:56:53better than a dog.
2:56:55Anyhow, he continued, "Home and someone
2:56:58to take care of house, charms of music
2:57:00and female chitchat. These things good
2:57:02for one's health, but terrible loss of
2:57:04time." Without warning, Darwin had, from
2:57:06the promarriage column, swerved
2:57:08uncontrollably into major anti-marriage
2:57:10factors, so major that he underlined it.
2:57:13This issue, the infringement of marriage
2:57:14on his time, especially his work time,
2:57:16was addressed at greater length in the
2:57:18appropriate not marry column. Not
2:57:20marrying, he wrote, would preserve
2:57:22freedom to go where one likes, choice of
2:57:24society and little of it. Conservation,
2:57:26conversation of clever men at clubs, not
2:57:29forced to visit relatives and bend in
2:57:30every trifle. To have the expense and
2:57:32anxiety of children perhaps quarreling,
2:57:34loss of time, cannot read in the
2:57:36evening, fatness and idleness, anxiety
2:57:39and responsibility, less money for
2:57:40bucks, and if many children forced to
2:57:43gain one's bread, even experts in mating
2:57:47and evolution struggle with big
2:57:49decisions. sick. The line that I
2:57:53remember from that most vividly was
2:57:55money for
2:57:57books. It was just such just such a like
2:58:00and less money for books. Yeah, that
2:58:01will be in there. I want to do another
2:58:03one. I don't mean to just read that
2:58:05exists. Have you ever read Richard
2:58:08Fineman's love letter to his wife? Uh,
2:58:11no. I read the pleasure of finding
2:58:12things out. Okay. But I love Fineman.
2:58:14Love I mean, you can see a lot of
2:58:16influence. I might I might not be able
2:58:17to say this without crying, which is
2:58:19going to be very embarrassing, but I'm
2:58:20going to try.
2:58:23October 17th,
2:58:251946. Darlene, I adore you, sweetheart.
2:58:29I know how much you like to hear it, but
2:58:32I don't only write it because you like
2:58:34it. I write it because it makes me warm
2:58:36all over inside to write you. It is such
2:58:38a terribly long time since I last wrote
2:58:40to you, almost 2 years. But I know
2:58:42you'll excuse me because you understand
2:58:44how I am stubborn and realistic, and I
2:58:46thought there was no sense to writing.
2:58:48But now I know, my darling wife, that it
2:58:51is right to do what I have delayed in
2:58:52doing, and that I have done so much in
2:58:54the past. I want to tell you I love you.
2:58:57I want to love you. I will always love
2:58:59you. I find it hard to understand in my
2:59:01mind what it means to love you after you
2:59:03are
2:59:05dead. But I still want to comfort and
2:59:07take care of you. And I want you to love
2:59:09me and care for me. I want to have
2:59:11problems to discuss with you. I want to
2:59:13do little projects with you. I never
2:59:15thought until now that we can do that.
2:59:19What should we do? We started to learn
2:59:21to make clothes together or learn
2:59:22Chinese or get a movie projector. Can't
2:59:25I do something
2:59:27now?
2:59:28No. I am alone without you. And you were
2:59:32the idea woman and general instigator of
2:59:35all our wild adventures. When you were
2:59:37sick, you worried because you could not
2:59:39give me something that you wanted to and
2:59:42thought I needed. You needn't have
2:59:44worried. Just as I told you then, there
2:59:46was no real need because I loved you in
2:59:48so many ways, so much. And now it is
2:59:51clearly even more true. You can give me
2:59:54nothing. Yet I love you so that you
2:59:57stand in my way of loving anyone else.
3:00:00But I want you to stand there. You dead
3:00:04are so much better than anyone else
3:00:06alive.
3:00:08I know you will assure me that I am
3:00:10foolish and that you want me to have
3:00:11full happiness and don't want to be in
3:00:14my way. I'll bet you are surprised that
3:00:16I don't even have a girlfriend except
3:00:18you, sweetheart, after 2 years. But you
3:00:22can't help it, darling. Nor can I. I
3:00:26don't understand it for I have met many
3:00:28girls and very nice ones, and I don't
3:00:31want to remain alone. But in two or
3:00:33three meetings, they all seem
3:00:36ashes. You only are left to me. You are
3:00:40real. My darling wife, I do adore you. I
3:00:44love my wife. My wife is
3:00:49dead. Tough.
3:01:07to play the reverse out. It's like,
3:01:10would I want Leila to write that
3:01:13letter? And I don't think I
3:01:17would
3:01:20unless she was happy writing that
3:01:23letter.
3:01:25But if the removal of me as a
3:01:30contingency of reinforcement for her um
3:01:33meant that
3:01:35she couldn't find that in somebody else
3:01:39um would sadden me and so I've already
3:01:42so like with lay life I've told her I
3:01:45tell her a lot um I was like I'm going
3:01:47to die before you statistically there's
3:01:49I'm for sure going to die before you
3:01:50she's a little younger she's younger and
3:01:52I'm biggerale and she exercised like
3:01:54she's for sure going to live longer. And
3:01:56I was like, I want you to spend as
3:01:58little time as humanly possible from the
3:02:00time that I die to finding somebody
3:02:02else. Um, you do me no service by making
3:02:06yourself miserable. And you do not
3:02:08discredit or dishonor me by finding
3:02:10somebody else to spend your life with.
3:02:13So, yeah, just I I only think about that
3:02:16from reverse. There's
3:02:20a the joy of melancholy. Yeah. is an
3:02:23interesting kind of emotion that's kind
3:02:27you know this strange think wallowing
3:02:32satisfaction in wistfulness um and yeah
3:02:35wallowing wallowing is maybe a little a
3:02:37little more loaded
3:02:40um but melancholy I you know there can
3:02:44be odd joy and sadness and and a kind of
3:02:48beauty that you get to experience after
3:02:52something is gone that you can't
3:02:53experience during it. I've not had
3:02:56anybody in my life die. Only child with
3:02:58a mother and a father that's still
3:02:59alive. Like I've got there's no one must
3:03:01be nice. Yeah.
3:03:05Um but there's not been many things that
3:03:08I've lost. And this is me Monday
3:03:10morning quarterbacking. Uh I don't know.
3:03:13But maybe
3:03:18what's a mood
3:03:19setter? Modern women see Ila and think,
3:03:23"I'll wait to establish myself in my
3:03:24career before I date or get married or
3:03:26have kids." But they forget we got
3:03:28married when she was 23 and we built
3:03:31this together. Love is one of the rare
3:03:33times you don't do life in order, but
3:03:35rather all at once.
3:03:49If you find someone that makes your
3:03:50world go round and makes the world make
3:03:54sense to you, where you both look at the
3:03:56same thing and say, "Oh, you saw that,
3:03:57too?" Like, I feel like I was the only
3:03:59one. I think that for high achieving
3:04:02individuals, finding someone who sees
3:04:03the world the same way is incredibly
3:04:04rare. And when you find that
3:04:07person, you should stop what you're
3:04:09doing and then you should get them to
3:04:12stay with you. And it's been, you know,
3:04:16one of the best decisions of my entire
3:04:17life, marrying Ila.
3:04:21And
3:04:23there's there's this, especially
3:04:26unfortunately for women right now,
3:04:28there's this huge, you know, put it off
3:04:30delay. There's no rush. But it doesn't
3:04:33actually take into um consideration two
3:04:36things. One is that biology hasn't
3:04:38advanced with culture and society. You
3:04:40can't have kids past, you know, 35. I
3:04:44mean, you can, but you're a geriatric,
3:04:46you know, it's a ger geriatric pregnancy
3:04:48past 35. Ruthless time. Yeah. I'm just
3:04:51being real, right? Yeah. Um, and so I
3:04:53mean I I this is like super prevalent
3:04:55and I know this is a much more common
3:04:56theme on the show and I don't touch it
3:04:57very much, but it's it just I just say
3:05:00it more like because it I think it
3:05:01sucks. Um, it's not fair. It's not Yeah,
3:05:04it's like objectively it's not fair.
3:05:06Guys can wait the you know their whole
3:05:08lives. They can do everything. Um, and
3:05:10you have to, if you go to college,
3:05:12graduate college at 21 or 22. And if you
3:05:16want to have four kids, assuming that
3:05:18you have perfect pregnancies and you
3:05:21have exactly one year, you know, 18
3:05:23months between each one, okay, that's
3:05:25six years by the time you're done. And
3:05:27so if we if we rule out geriatric that
3:05:29geriatric pregnancy is our last, then it
3:05:32means that we have to basically have or
3:05:33we you have to have your first kid at
3:05:3529. Well, okay, maybe it'll take, let's
3:05:39just tack one year on of marriage to
3:05:41have the kid and be married. Okay, 28
3:05:43you're married. All right, do you want
3:05:44to marry somebody within 6 months of
3:05:46meeting them? Let's give it two years to
3:05:48give our logical, you know, brain in.
3:05:50Okay, so
3:05:5226. 26, you graduate at 22, you have 48
3:05:57months. And I think that again, this is
3:06:00if you have if you don't want kids, then
3:06:02all of this is null. If you do, then you
3:06:06have a very small window um to piece
3:06:08that together. Now, of course, there's
3:06:09surrogates and maybe in the future, you
3:06:11know, like I I'll say in general betting
3:06:15on I'll smoke I'll smoke cigarettes now
3:06:17because by the time I'm old they'll have
3:06:19a cure for it. Um I don't know. I just I
3:06:23don't make those bets. And so it's
3:06:26easier to work with reality the way it
3:06:27is, not the way you hope it's going to
3:06:29end up landing. Yeah. to to knowingly
3:06:31incur basically a guaranteed price for
3:06:34the potential of maybe a non-existent
3:06:37solution is probably not the best
3:06:39decision-making process. And to be
3:06:41clear, I say this, Ila and I, you know,
3:06:42we don't have kids. She's not 35. Um,
3:06:46but I think
3:06:48that we have these unrealistic
3:06:51expectations that someone is going to
3:06:52make our lives, that they're going to
3:06:54complete us in some way. when I think
3:06:56that for me the the the best thing that
3:06:59a partner can do is help you be the best
3:07:01version of yourself and that may mean
3:07:03that you also have other friends who who
3:07:06fulfill other needs for you. I remember
3:07:09a mentor of mine uh you know he had had
3:07:12a wife that well most people have wives
3:07:15that are not involved in their business.
3:07:16I'm more the exception there. Um but his
3:07:18wife wasn't involved at all in the
3:07:19business and they had a very happy
3:07:20marriage. Uh, and he said, um, and I
3:07:22said, ' Do you ever like wish you could
3:07:24talk shop with, you know, your wife? And
3:07:26he said, God, no. And I was like, uh,
3:07:29why not? He said, that's what I got you
3:07:31for. And it was just such a business. It
3:07:34was just a such a flippant like
3:07:36off-handed answer that I was like, there
3:07:37was actually a lot of wisdom in that.
3:07:38He's like, I don't need I don't need her
3:07:40to do that. He's like, I need her to do
3:07:42this. And he's like, and I've got you
3:07:44and you and Kevin to do these things
3:07:46with. And he's like, and when I want to
3:07:47do like church stuff, I go to these
3:07:49people. And so um and I think a lot of
3:07:51that is because we've become
3:07:53increasingly remote. People live
3:07:54together in close quarters for extended
3:07:56period of time. And so it's like our
3:07:58exposure, our surface area with one
3:07:59another has gone so far up compared to
3:08:02how the vast majority of kind of uh
3:08:04relationships were call even 50 years
3:08:06ago. Like you didn't spend nearly as
3:08:08much time with your spouse. And so it
3:08:10was more normal to have different people
3:08:12or different parts of your life that
3:08:14were or needs being fulfilled by many
3:08:16people and only the ones that are
3:08:18confined by the laws of marriage being
3:08:21delivered on that. Now if you get
3:08:22somebody who can who can takeick two of
3:08:23those boxes or three of those boxes
3:08:25amazing. But I think the idea cuz I tend
3:08:28to reject the idea of soulmate and I
3:08:30think that people have this fallacy of
3:08:32the perfect pick. like I have to pick
3:08:34this person perfectly when there's also
3:08:37the Buddhist perspective which you and I
3:08:38have both you know spoken length off off
3:08:41camera about which is like suffering is
3:08:44going to be a constant and this person
3:08:49will
3:08:51like we get to choose how we want this
3:08:53to go and so I think that if you take
3:08:58off the societal pressure of a perfect
3:09:00partner and think does this person make
3:09:02me
3:09:03Will this person hold me back from my
3:09:05goals? Um, if the answer to this that is
3:09:08they will make me better, they will make
3:09:09it more likely that I I do the things
3:09:10that I want to do and we have no what I
3:09:12would consider non-negotiables. I want
3:09:13to have kids, they don't want to have
3:09:14kids, I want to travel, they never want
3:09:16to travel. If those things are good, I
3:09:18think part of the excitement of life is
3:09:20is learning how to be married.
3:09:24There's a cool idea Louise Perry taught
3:09:26me about uh which is how people buy a
3:09:30lamp. So, okay, if you were to move into
3:09:35a house completely unfernished, finding
3:09:38the right lamp is super easy. Get any
3:09:40lamp and the house will fit around it.
3:09:43But if you've spent a decade and a half
3:09:45constructing the perfect house and all
3:09:47of the upholstery is chosen and the arts
3:09:49on the wall, there's this sort of sage
3:09:52uh uh effevescent uh candle over the far
3:09:56sides. Even the smell. Trying to find a
3:09:58lamp that fits that perfectly cured
3:10:00house is really difficult. And it's a
3:10:02price
3:10:03that we don't like to talk about. I say
3:10:07this as somebody who's unmarried at 37,
3:10:08right? And has constructed a pretty
3:10:10elaborate, complex life. Um,
3:10:13it's significantly more difficult to
3:10:15find a lamp that fits into a house that
3:10:16you've designed for a long time than it
3:10:18is to build a house around a lamp. And
3:10:20assuming that you want a lamp in your
3:10:23house, getting the order at least
3:10:27somewhat right may make it easier. Now,
3:10:29there are lots of great things
3:10:31about the fact that your house is more
3:10:33big and complex and you've had fun in
3:10:34building it and all the rest of the
3:10:35stuff, but it is a cost that we don't
3:10:37talk about, which
3:10:38is how much more difficult is it? What
3:10:41are some of the irreversible doors that
3:10:43you have of just being older and more
3:10:46ingrained in your habits? And this is
3:10:48the theory versus practice tension again
3:10:50of well, you know, if I find the right
3:10:52person, I can, you know, we can it'll
3:10:54and you go, "Yeah, dude, but your mind
3:10:57is not that of 21 or 25 or 30 is that of
3:11:0235 or 40." And it's going to be harder
3:11:05for you to feel as satisfied with your
3:11:07choice. It's a difference between
3:11:08satisficing and maximizing. And the
3:11:11problem is even if you're looking for
3:11:12satisficing, you start to that bar
3:11:14begins to raise. Yeah. Exactly.
3:11:17And how do you know that you're not
3:11:19kidding yourself into selling that
3:11:22short? We've seen I was at uh Zach
3:11:25Zach's wedding a couple of months ago,
3:11:28and this is such a universal
3:11:32truth of every wedding that I've ever
3:11:33been to, as soon as the ceremony is
3:11:37finished, all of the eyes of the older
3:11:39people turn onto the single people in
3:11:40the crowd. And they're like
3:11:43blocked on like this, and they're coming
3:11:44over. Anybody that's not married
3:11:46the Christopher when are we going to see
3:11:49you know when are we going to be you
3:11:51know you can't you must not forever yeah
3:11:54exactly and uh
3:11:56it's vicious it's like a
3:11:58heat-seeking missile from all of the
3:11:59older people that are there and uh
3:12:02Zach's mom had a lot to drink and was
3:12:04being super loud and came out with an
3:12:06absolute slammer of an insight
3:12:09where she was you know so when do you
3:12:12think and so on and stuff so I I can't
3:12:14wait to be Dad, I can't wait to have a
3:12:15family. I can't wait to do the thing. I
3:12:17feel like I've spent a lot of my life
3:12:18looking after me and I'm starting to get
3:12:20sick of myself and I'm looking forward
3:12:21to looking after somebody else.
3:12:24And she said, uh, that's all well and
3:12:27good. Make sure that you love you fall
3:12:29in love with the girl, not with the
3:12:31institution.
3:12:34And you see this with women because they
3:12:37have tighter timelines again. Yeah. that
3:12:40as the nightclub lights are about to
3:12:43come on, the standards have to
3:12:46increasingly slip.
3:12:48And it's not entirely the same for men.
3:12:52But look, most relationships that are an
3:12:54age gap of 2 yearsish. I think the
3:12:57average is 1.5 years older in the guy's
3:13:01direction. You can play around with this
3:13:02all that you want, but it's going to
3:13:05become increasingly difficult if you're
3:13:06talking like over 10 years. Like, okay,
3:13:09like how much are you going to have in
3:13:10common? Very different life stages. You
3:13:12can get a particularly youthful older
3:13:14person or you can get a particularly
3:13:16mature younger person. But come on, like
3:13:19it's going to be it's going to be
3:13:20another uh challenge for you guys to get
3:13:22past. And uh yeah, make sure that you
3:13:24fall in love with the girl, not with the
3:13:25institution. to reverse engineer this
3:13:28situation out of somebody that isn't
3:13:30right for it. Uh I think is a a good
3:13:33insight.
3:13:34I think there's a distinct advantage to
3:13:37be clear, not that everyone needs this,
3:13:39but if you are a younger guy, the fear
3:13:41that you have is that you're not going
3:13:43to have the resources to attract, you
3:13:45know, a super eligible bachelorette, but
3:13:48I think that
3:13:50there's really
3:13:52deep bonding that occurs in going
3:13:55through hardship together. Like when,
3:13:58and this isn't me saying my way is
3:14:00better, I promise. Like hopefully the
3:14:02end point of this whole podcast is like
3:14:03Alex clearly has no idea. Um but Leila's
3:14:0823, I was 26 and she saw me lose
3:14:11everything twice and that was before we
3:14:13got married. And so I felt very
3:14:17confident that she liked me for me. And
3:14:20I think that one of the what people
3:14:22don't talk about is the the flip side of
3:14:23this, like playing it out, right? Let's
3:14:25play it out a couple steps. is let's say
3:14:27you do have the the nice place, you have
3:14:28the big bank account, you have whatever
3:14:30income stream, all the the societal
3:14:33W's. You're not sure if she loves you or
3:14:36the institution of you. Yeah.
3:14:40And is there a way to know? I don't
3:14:43know. Well, you can stress test it, but
3:14:45it's a high-risisk
3:14:47purposefully bankrupt myself to see if
3:14:48this woman loves me. Yeah. Um, and so I,
3:14:53uh, without being 1950s nostalgic
3:14:56because we weren't there and it was
3:14:57probably not as good as people think it
3:14:58is now. Um,
3:15:05find the person who allows you to be the
3:15:08most version of you. And I think that
3:15:10that really comes down to it. And the
3:15:11most version of you, um, I think is the
3:15:14highest potential version of you. The
3:15:16person who can lubricate the gap between
3:15:18who you are and who you want to be. Um,
3:15:20you know, I've said this before, but the
3:15:22person you marry marries two people. The
3:15:24person you are and the person you want
3:15:25to become. Just make sure they love both
3:15:27of those people because they're going to
3:15:30be the one who's either going to prevent
3:15:31that from happening or be the one who's
3:15:33a rocket pack for you. Like what's
3:15:36really interesting is that there was a
3:15:37uh there was like a super red pill
3:15:38podcast that reached out to Ila um and
3:15:41wanted to interview her and she turned
3:15:43down the the request but the in the
3:15:46invite it said you and Alex seem to have
3:15:48like the only like relationship where
3:15:52it's like modern relationship but it
3:15:54seems like it's working cuz they're
3:15:55super you know tad conserved whatever
3:15:58and you know Ila responded um you know
3:16:01we had a conversation basically about
3:16:02the invite um she she didn't do
3:16:04But, um, I think what a lot of people
3:16:07don't see publicly is that like Leila
3:16:10and I actually have an incredibly
3:16:11traditional relationship. And in some
3:16:13ways, I just feel like Ila is the most
3:16:15extreme wife you could possibly find,
3:16:17which is that she just said, "I will
3:16:18support my husband in every possible way
3:16:21to help him achieve what he wants,
3:16:23including becoming his business
3:16:24partner."
3:16:25Yes. Yes. And that's what people don't
3:16:27get. Like, Ila has done everything for
3:16:31me. And that's the part that people
3:16:34can't see. And like sure, she'll get
3:16:36girl boss and like whatever you know
3:16:38that world wants to, but like we have a
3:16:42very traditional relationship and Ila is
3:16:44also a very strong woman. And I think
3:16:46that for the very strong women that are
3:16:48out there, this will probably be, you
3:16:51know, chopped in a million pieces and
3:16:52put all over the internet, but I think
3:16:54you just need an even stronger man. And
3:16:57so unfortunately with like the
3:16:58pussification of society, especially
3:17:01men, um the and the and the flip side of
3:17:04like the more girl boss etc is that it's
3:17:07making it harder for those very
3:17:09confident, strong, achieving women to
3:17:11find men that they will let be men. And
3:17:15the real real is that the guy that you
3:17:17will end up with, he will not accept you
3:17:19quote letting him be a man. He will be a
3:17:21man and then you will fall into that
3:17:23world. M you will fit within it. And I
3:17:26know that that will probably you know
3:17:28rub some people the wrong way but that
3:17:29is my worldview. Um and Ila shares this
3:17:32worldview and this is again not as
3:17:34public on cuz you can't do it in
3:17:37Instagram sound bites. Um but Ila's life
3:17:40has been one of absolute service and she
3:17:43just did everything she could to
3:17:45help me and she still does to this day
3:17:47to the point of pushing herself into
3:17:49health issues to to to help us win. And
3:17:53I think the sooner that you can get an
3:17:55ally that you can absolutely trust, we
3:17:58think about competence and we think
3:17:59about incentives, right? A wife is
3:18:01ideally like recommendation to the
3:18:03younger guys, find a competent wife. Um
3:18:06the incentives take care of themselves
3:18:07once you get married. And I will say
3:18:10that
3:18:13contrary to to popular, you know, pop
3:18:15culture, getting married makes you more
3:18:17money. So, as much as Darwin said, "This
3:18:19will cost me money. I will have less
3:18:21money for
3:18:22books, getting married will make you
3:18:24more money." And I'll say, even at the
3:18:26most basic level, because you're not
3:18:27spending a third of your mental effort
3:18:28chasing tail, you get a third the admin,
3:18:31the sheer admin of dating in the modern
3:18:34world. It's true though. Yep. Um and and
3:18:37you go you go from from a third of your
3:18:40time chasing tail with always trying to
3:18:42gauge people's intent and you know
3:18:44intentions and all this stuff to getting
3:18:45all of that back plus another 3/3 of
3:18:49somebody else provided you're aligned on
3:18:50where you want to go. And like I would
3:18:52not be here without Ila not just because
3:18:56uh she's been instrumental in everything
3:18:57that we've done business-wise but she
3:19:00above all else created space. She
3:19:03allowed and and she was the first person
3:19:06in my life who just
3:19:08who who just wanted me to be me and like
3:19:12even in the times when I would like I
3:19:14was at I was at a wedding and I was
3:19:15about to post something and Ila was with
3:19:17me and I was like ah this is a little
3:19:18bit edgy. I was like I don't want to
3:19:19piss people off and she just looked at
3:19:20me and she was like never dilute
3:19:22yourself. And it's like somebody who
3:19:25wants you to be the most concentrated
3:19:26potent unshackled unconstrained version
3:19:29of you.
3:19:30She puts up with the fact that I wear
3:19:31the exact same thing every single day. I
3:19:33eat the same lunch every single day, the
3:19:34same breakfast every single day. I talk
3:19:36about only one topic, which is business.
3:19:38And I do that unrelentingly and forever
3:19:39for every single conversation. And she
3:19:41has dealt with all of these things.
3:19:44Um, and the the perspective that I have
3:19:48on this is that like after the two years
3:19:50of all the the serotonin hyperdump or
3:19:52norepinephrine and dopamine that you get
3:19:54from the love drug, um, what you'll have
3:19:56left is you and them. And if you do not
3:20:00fit into their idea of what they wanted
3:20:03you to be, then that is going to be a
3:20:04tough ride. And so I think the baseline
3:20:07is I accept you for who you are and I
3:20:09also accept the person they want to
3:20:10become and I'm going to do everything in
3:20:12my power to help you get there. And
3:20:14ideally both of us becoming that person
3:20:16is aligned with the same
3:20:19actions. I had this insight from George
3:20:21Mac's birthday last year in Miami. I
3:20:24haven't met George and I feel like he
3:20:26lives he lives in Austin now. So, come
3:20:27through. Um, I know you never travel, so
3:20:30that's a a a hollow offer that I never
3:20:32actually need to cash in on. A friend
3:20:35was recently asked who his best friend
3:20:36is. He said he wasn't sure. It's a bit
3:20:38of a rare question after age 12. So, the
3:20:40question was asked differently. Who do
3:20:42you have the least amount of filter with
3:20:43when you're around them? Another good
3:20:45question is, who can you sit in silence
3:20:47with and not have to fill it? Mhm. Even
3:20:50if there isn't a single person that
3:20:51wins, these are the people who you
3:20:53should prioritize spending your time
3:20:54with. We all feel the compulsion to
3:20:55change ourselves to fit in. We adjust
3:20:57our behavior, words, nature, everything
3:20:59in attempt to be liked, validated, and
3:21:01accepted. The more people who make it
3:21:04feel safe for you to truly be yourself
3:21:06around them, the more confidence you'll
3:21:07have to be that person every day. And I
3:21:09feel like that's a coralate to the you
3:21:12partner should be someone that helps you
3:21:14become more of you, not dilute.
3:21:20They should be
3:21:21salt to bring out the flavor. Yeah.
3:21:24Obviously, he salt. Yeah. analogies have
3:21:27limits, but like salt more of you. And
3:21:31so you brought up authentic authenticity
3:21:33as I define it from a behavior
3:21:34perspective is how you behave if you
3:21:36have no if you have no risk of
3:21:37punishment. Mhm. And so what would you
3:21:40do if you could not get
3:21:42punished? And if you behave that way in
3:21:45front of them, then it means that either
3:21:48they do not punish you or they have no
3:21:49desire to punish you. Either way, it
3:21:51accomplishes the same thing, which is
3:21:52that you behave as though they weren't
3:21:54there. M
3:21:57how to get a top tier goal. Oh god, did
3:21:59I say this? Is this mine? Yes. Yes, it
3:22:03I'm sorry. It is. How to get a top tier
3:22:06goal? Number one, get in shape. Yeah.
3:22:08Number two, get rich. Number three,
3:22:11don't be a dick. Pretty good
3:22:16advice. So, the second one. So, get in
3:22:19shape. Uh, I highly recommend like the
3:22:21first thing you like strongly strongly
3:22:24strong recommend for young guys like for
3:22:26the love of God get in shape. Uh, it's
3:22:29it'll never be easier. You'll never have
3:22:30more time. I had one of my sales guys
3:22:32who I said, "Dude, I don't see you at
3:22:34the gym." And he said, "You know, I'm
3:22:35just really busy." And I just like
3:22:37looked at him and I was like, "You will
3:22:39never have more time and less
3:22:42responsibility than you do now." So, I
3:22:44kind of used the James Clear thing. I
3:22:46said, "Hey, if you can't make it work
3:22:47now, accept that you're never going to
3:22:48be in shape for the rest of your life."
3:22:50He was like, "Whoa." I was like, "Think
3:22:53about it. Rid yourself of the design."
3:22:54Yeah. I was like, "You're just never
3:22:55going to be in shape." He was like,
3:22:56"Well, I mean, I was like, right. So, do
3:22:58it or don't, but stop wanting it." And
3:23:00so, uh, back to that point. So, I think
3:23:03that getting in shape just dramatically
3:23:05enhances the the people that you can
3:23:07that you can hang out with. Like, and I
3:23:08I have this belief from humans in
3:23:10general. All humans at ideal body weight
3:23:14and like normal levels of musculature
3:23:16are almost all attractive. Like at like
3:23:18a one or zero binary scale of attractive
3:23:21like almost all humans are just purely
3:23:24physically. And so like just don't have
3:23:27that be a constraint for you. Like don't
3:23:28have it be a negative at the very least.
3:23:30Right. Yeah. I've got this limitation
3:23:32and that limitation and another
3:23:33limitation. It's like
3:23:34okay you're just adding another Yeah. I
3:23:37think I think Peterson said something
3:23:39like uh they say they're depressed. And
3:23:41he's like, well, you're living in your
3:23:43mom's basement and you're unemployed.
3:23:44It's like you didn't give yourself a
3:23:45chance. Now, if you're in shape, you're
3:23:48rich, you do all these, you're you've
3:23:49achieved whatever you've achieved.
3:23:50Doesn't have to be rich, but you've
3:23:51achieved whatever you want to achieve.
3:23:52If you're still depressed, then we can
3:23:54talk about it. But until then, you
3:23:55haven't even given yourself a shot. I
3:23:57can't find girls. Well, are you any of
3:23:58these basic things? No. Well, then do
3:24:00that first. The rich thing is more I
3:24:02mean, obviously for me,
3:24:04um I think uh Professor G. Galloway um
3:24:08said this, it's it's more about the
3:24:10signal that you have the ability to gain
3:24:13resources more than having them. And so
3:24:16like if you think about trust fund kid
3:24:18now there is the element of having money
3:24:21which does for sure there are girls who
3:24:23just want the money but if you compare
3:24:25that to the young hungry guy I don't
3:24:28know if they win in a headto head right
3:24:31and so it's the same reason that the
3:24:33starving artist sleeping on his friend's
3:24:35couch but who's got lots of upside
3:24:37potential is attractive. Yeah. It's like
3:24:39but he has one guitar and a pair
3:24:41of boots to his name. Like, how is that?
3:24:44Well, yeah, but so did Dylan. Look at
3:24:46look at the predictors that I'm seeing
3:24:48here. Look at the early onset
3:24:51alarm warnings of something potentially
3:24:54great in this future. Yeah. So, uh, get
3:24:57in shape. Signal that you are ambitious
3:25:01and that you plan on pursuing whatever
3:25:02it is that you're going after. And then
3:25:04finally, it's just don't be a jerk.
3:25:06Like, I'm not saying you have to be
3:25:08like, you know, the world's sweetest
3:25:10whatever, but just don't be a dick. If
3:25:11you do those three things, like you'll
3:25:13be able to get whatever whatever girls
3:25:14you want. What does don't be a dick
3:25:16consist of? Great question. So, it would
3:25:19probably be the behaviors that
3:25:23um so that is a bucketed term for many
3:25:26behaviors underneath of it. Um that
3:25:29basically would just decrease the
3:25:30likelihood that a girl would want to
3:25:31continue to fraternize with
3:25:33you. Uh but like you know specifically
3:25:35like and I think that'll also depend on
3:25:37the girl to be real. Um so girls might
3:25:39prefer this. So whatever your target
3:25:40girl is, she probably has a bucket of
3:25:42behaviors. Now that's different than do
3:25:44what she wants. Very different. It's is
3:25:47there something that is non- negative to
3:25:49me that is beneficial to her. Do as many
3:25:51of those things as you can. Mhm. Mhm.
3:25:54It's interesting as well
3:25:56that it probably means you need to
3:25:59ensure that the kind of girl that you
3:26:02want to be with Mhm. and the kind of
3:26:06behavior that you want to have around
3:26:10her will often align because those two
3:26:13things might not. You might want to be a
3:26:15really distant I'm just going to work on
3:26:18myself kind of guy but you might want a
3:26:20very forthcoming, very caring sort of
3:26:22woman and you have really reduced down
3:26:25your mating pool if those two things
3:26:28don't tend to correlate and I'm going to
3:26:29guess that they don't. If you want a
3:26:30really forthcoming, very caring woman,
3:26:32I'm going to guess that she's going to
3:26:33kind of expect that sort of interaction
3:26:35in reverse. And if you're not prepared
3:26:37to give that, it's like rid yourself of
3:26:39the desire or you're going to have to
3:26:40change your preferences or you're going
3:26:42to have to change your behavior. One of
3:26:43the two. Worth bringing up early if you
3:26:46are on this like, you know, I would like
3:26:48to find somebody train. This is
3:26:50something that worked exceptionally
3:26:51well. Um, which is I and I think our
3:26:54first or second date, I just said
3:26:56upfront all the non-negotiables that I
3:26:58had. Um, which to be fair, this isn't
3:27:00the like red flags whatever thing. It's
3:27:03just like I work a lot. I will not
3:27:05sacrifice that. If that is a problem,
3:27:08then this will not work and that is
3:27:09okay. I just want to be upfront that
3:27:11these are these are the thing like I
3:27:12work out. I will do that. I'm not going
3:27:14to give that up. I will not give that up
3:27:15for anyone. Um, and so like just stating
3:27:19those things and I would say like
3:27:20because people have this like they want
3:27:23to put on a show, right? They peacock.
3:27:25they they have to do the mating dance
3:27:26and I have to, you know, present myself
3:27:28in a way that's different than I
3:27:29currently am. But I would say over time,
3:27:32the less you can make the discrepancy
3:27:33between how you're quote acting or
3:27:35performing and who you are at baseline
3:27:37for that person, the better it's going
3:27:39to be long term because they're going to
3:27:40find out eventually. And so they might
3:27:43as well find out upfront and then you
3:27:45can just say triage. I've said this a
3:27:48bunch of times, but I went through a
3:27:50breakup at the start of last year was
3:27:52three and a half year relationship and I
3:27:53was like, "Okay, I'm back in the dating
3:27:54world." very different world, very
3:27:55different person, very different
3:27:56environment, so on. Uh, and I did the
3:27:59sort of intellectual equivalent of a
3:28:01test, which was early on I would
3:28:04start sending them psychology today
3:28:05articles and weird Substack posts and
3:28:08stuff just to see, huh, are we going to
3:28:11have at some point when we next catch
3:28:12up? Are we going to have a discussion
3:28:13about this? Because this is the sort of
3:28:15thing that's interesting to me. And I
3:28:16don't see this going away, at least for
3:28:18a little while. I imagine the next
3:28:20decade of my life and maybe for the rest
3:28:22of my life I'm going to be reading stuff
3:28:23and learning about human nature and I
3:28:24think it's important to me to be able to
3:28:26talk about this with my
3:28:29person. This is really
3:28:32good. So what you just said reminded me
3:28:35of
3:28:37um a speech that uh Horowitz gave Ben
3:28:41Horowitz and he talked about not
3:28:43pursuing your passion um as a career
3:28:46choice. And one of the main arguments
3:28:48that he makes is that your passions will
3:28:50change. He said the things when you're
3:28:52you were really passionate when you're
3:28:5320 are be the things that you're
3:28:54passionate when you're 40.
3:28:56And to to link that to something that
3:28:59Jeff Basos talks about which is when
3:29:01they asked um hey you know what do you
3:29:03think the future of Amazon is going to
3:29:04look like? He said people always want to
3:29:05know what is going to change. He said I
3:29:08think it's far more valuable to think
3:29:09what is not going to change. And I think
3:29:11that if you're trying to find a mate,
3:29:13you really want to find the fewest
3:29:14common denominators. Like what things
3:29:16will not change about me over a long
3:29:18period of time. If you happen to be in a
3:29:19stint that you're really into fencing or
3:29:22whatever, that may change. And I think
3:29:24that's where like in some ways it lowers
3:29:28the bar for the quote perfect match
3:29:30because trying to find the perfect match
3:29:32today versus that same match 50 years
3:29:35from now virtually impossible. And so if
3:29:38we accept that many of the things that
3:29:39are surface level today are going to
3:29:40disappear on a on a longer time horizon,
3:29:42then there's only going to be the few
3:29:44things that actually matter, which are
3:29:46going to be what are what are the
3:29:47behaviors under duress, right? What are
3:29:50the core things about myself and my
3:29:52behavior set that uh I find it unlikely
3:29:54that will change over a long time
3:29:56horizon. What are the things that are
3:29:57predictive of the things that end up
3:29:59manifesting? Like what is it that
3:30:00underpins this? What are the
3:30:02foundations? And so I think that if you
3:30:04can and it's probably just a handful of
3:30:06big rocks rather than hundreds of
3:30:07pebbles. And so when when girls have the
3:30:09and guys too, right, have the big list
3:30:11of like the hundred things that I I can
3:30:13never have, it's like you probably
3:30:15should have three that you
3:30:17must and then kind of ignore the rest
3:30:20because that's that's the that's the
3:30:23game. People who obsess about work life
3:30:25balance are typically mediocre at both.
3:30:27Obsessed people apply their obsession to
3:30:29everything and just call it life.
3:30:32I stand by my statement.
3:30:37I mean, have you met anybody who's
3:30:42like, maybe it's genetic, you know, the
3:30:45finding the dent in the can and the like
3:30:47um I mean the first thing that Leila and
3:30:50I did when we got married is that we
3:30:52went through a divorce course cuz we're
3:30:54like, well shoot, inversion, right?
3:30:55We're like, well, let's just find out
3:30:56all the reasons that people get divorced
3:30:58and let's handle all of those things
3:30:59now. And so we did that as the first
3:31:01thing. What are the reasons? Money is a
3:31:03big one. Kids are a big one. Um and then
3:31:07a lot of it is actually really tactical
3:31:09preferences. So like when I come home
3:31:12from a long day of work, do I want you
3:31:14to then unload all of your days, you
3:31:16know, woes on me? Probably not, right?
3:31:18And so for me specifically, and it's
3:31:20being um I mean a lot of it comes down
3:31:23to communication, assuming that you guys
3:31:24liked each other at some point, right?
3:31:26Um and that and rounding up. I call it
3:31:28running up, which is like if I said
3:31:31something and there's two ways of taking
3:31:32it, a bad way and a good way. I meant
3:31:33the good way. We're married. I love you.
3:31:36And so having that be kind of the
3:31:38default setting. And like Ila has
3:31:41learned a lot of my nuances, which I
3:31:43actually only got to learn with her
3:31:44because the thing is is that we're going
3:31:45to have, you know, novel experiences
3:31:47that then become routine. So, you know,
3:31:49when we work together, there was no me
3:31:51coming home at the end of a long day,
3:31:52but we I mean, we work in the same
3:31:54company now, but we don't like work
3:31:56together during the day. And so very
3:31:58often she's at home and I get back
3:32:01and she learned because I to just give
3:32:05me space. Like I usually just want to be
3:32:08left alone for a minute to basically let
3:32:12the dust settle in my head so that I can
3:32:13be, you know, fully present for her. Um,
3:32:16but I could see somebody who didn't know
3:32:18that assuming that if I don't want to
3:32:20talk to you when you get back, you don't
3:32:21love me. Y is a problem. And so it's
3:32:23really just dissecting these issues and
3:32:25saying instead of saying like you hate
3:32:27me or extrapolating this to our
3:32:29relationship forever and always just as
3:32:32a preference in behavior and obviously
3:32:34Leila subscribes to the same uh
3:32:36perspective on behavior that I do which
3:32:38has made our relationship so much easier
3:32:41to navigate without the landmines cuz
3:32:43she'll just say what would you prefer I
3:32:44do instead and I say can you do this
3:32:45instead of that and she says sure and
3:32:48that's it. like recently. So, this
3:32:50actually this is super super recent. We
3:32:52went out and had dinner and she said,
3:32:55"Thank you for dinner." Cuz I paid, you
3:32:57know, I paid a restaurant and I was
3:32:59like, it like really hit me and I was
3:33:03like, I haven't had someone like no
3:33:06one's basically no one thanks me for
3:33:08buying cuz I'm the assumed default
3:33:10guy who pays for But on top of
3:33:12that, Leila and I work together. We make
3:33:14this money together. So, it's almost
3:33:15weird that she would thank me for paying
3:33:17for dinner. So it's not like impolite or
3:33:18weird that she done it. Yeah. It's our
3:33:20money, right? But I was like that meant
3:33:23a lot to me. Means a lot to me, too.
3:33:25Yeah. And so what she what she's
3:33:27realized is when she if she says I'm
3:33:29proud of you, you're you know, you're
3:33:31awesome. You that was great. Whatever.
3:33:33That means a little bit. Um but for the
3:33:36most part, I'm like, well, I have a
3:33:37whole bunch of things that I could have
3:33:38made better and you just didn't see it.
3:33:39And like here's, you know, I'm thinking
3:33:41about all that stuff, right? But like it
3:33:42means something, but it doesn't mean the
3:33:43most. But when she said thank you, I was
3:33:46like, "Please do this more." Like, and
3:33:51so in like this is this is this week. So
3:33:53this is like very fresh top of mind for
3:33:55me. Like I came home yesterday after the
3:33:57two mega days that I was talking about
3:33:59the beginning of this. Um and she said,
3:34:01"Thank you for working so hard." And I
3:34:03was like in and it was just a tiny shift
3:34:05in terms of verbiage. Instead of saying
3:34:06like, "I'm so proud of you." And she
3:34:08said, "Thank you for it allowed me to
3:34:10feel like I was actually serving us by
3:34:13doing what we do." And it basically gave
3:34:14a huge reinforcer on top of my already
3:34:16large existing reinforcers for working.
3:34:18Um, but it's like I'm I'm like a I'm
3:34:21like an appreciation camel. Like I don't
3:34:22need a lot and it can carry me for a
3:34:24long time. Um, but she was like and she
3:34:27said the thing that she said at the very
3:34:28beginning of our relationship. She said
3:34:29I'm coachable
3:34:32and and I told you that your your stupid
3:34:34thing. The one superpower that Leila's
3:34:36had uh in our relationship, which I
3:34:38think everybody, you know, could could
3:34:40use, is that the number of times that I
3:34:43have to repeat feedback is zero.
3:34:46She is the most responsive person to
3:34:49feedback. And maybe it's hyper hyper
3:34:51criticism responder, what you know,
3:34:53whatever it is, but she will immediately
3:34:56change behavior permanently. And it's
3:34:59been one of those, you know, I mean,
3:35:01when we were dating, there was a period
3:35:03of time where I said, "I don't think
3:35:04this is going to work." And she was
3:35:05like, "Why?" I was like, "You're too
3:35:06cold." And then like the next day, she
3:35:08was like, "Okay, what does warm look
3:35:10like?" And I was like, "Well, if you do
3:35:11these things," she was like, "Okay, I'll
3:35:12do that." And so, um, and you know, some
3:35:16people might hear this, doing something
3:35:17that makes your mate happy without
3:35:18incurring a cost on you. Bingo. If it
3:35:21means if it makes no difference. Now, if
3:35:22it does incur a cost, have the
3:35:23conversation. Okay. Well, this is a
3:35:25trade-off here. And there was a period
3:35:26of time uh she made all of my meals uh
3:35:29for a very long period of time and then
3:35:31like in 2019 uh she came to me and she
3:35:34was like stressed out of her mind. She's
3:35:35like I can run this company or I can
3:35:38make you eat all of my
3:35:39meals. No, seriously. She was just like
3:35:42and she just said tell me which one
3:35:43you'd prefer. And she was like terrified
3:35:45to have this conversation with me
3:35:46because she was afraid that I would I I
3:35:48say you have to be this and this. And I
3:35:50was like oh no it's a way rarer skill to
3:35:52do what you can do in the business. I
3:35:53was like we can just find someone to
3:35:54cook the food. And she was like, "Oh." I
3:35:56was like, "It's great." I was like, "But
3:35:58this is like this means way more to me."
3:36:00And so just having that like, "Hey, I'll
3:36:02do it. Just I also just like if you had
3:36:05an employee, not to say that they're the
3:36:06same thing, but like you can't just say
3:36:08keep doing more and more things." At
3:36:10some point there's a priority that has
3:36:11to happen. I have to do this instead of
3:36:13that. And so what things are you willing
3:36:15to trade? And then us being able to
3:36:16openly talk about behavior the way that
3:36:18we do has made this way less emotionally
3:36:20charged because the sense of self that
3:36:23it's attached to. It's interesting with
3:36:25that. I wonder I think a lot of people
3:36:27will feel like it's some sort of denial
3:36:29of who they truly are when this happens.
3:36:32I remember when I first started working
3:36:34with a speech coach. Uh I got a
3:36:36addiction coach. I figured that if I was
3:36:39going to talk for a living, it would be
3:36:41good to speak to somebody that was an
3:36:42expert at doing that. And oh, addiction.
3:36:45I thought
3:36:46addiction. Yeah. Addiction coach. Okay.
3:36:49Uh, and a bunch of my friends said, "Uh,
3:36:52well, you are you worried about losing
3:36:54the way that you speak? You know, you've
3:36:56got a you've got a way that you speak
3:36:57and well, you know, it's going to change
3:36:59who you are." And I didn't really
3:37:02understand until probably only this year
3:37:03about why they were
3:37:07uncertain or had a bit of push back
3:37:09against it. And it's
3:37:12because the way that you speak is seen
3:37:15by many people and maybe rightly so as
3:37:19attached to who you are your your not
3:37:22only your sense of yeah it's your sense
3:37:23of self right it's a very sort of
3:37:25transparent so many thoughts hole down
3:37:28to that and the analogy that I used was
3:37:32well let's say that I started learning
3:37:34to play the
3:37:35saxophone and I said I'm going to get a
3:37:37teacher to teach me how to play the
3:37:38saxophone and your response to me was,
3:37:41"Well, what about your natural saxophone
3:37:43playing ability?" I'm
3:37:45like, "I'm trying to be a better boxer
3:37:48and I get a boxing trainer." They go,
3:37:49"Yeah, but what about the way that you
3:37:50naturally throw jabs?" Like, okay, if we
3:37:52assume that there are better and worse
3:37:54ways to do it, then yes, there might be
3:37:57some unique quirks that you have which
3:38:01if they were eroded away would lose a
3:38:05specific competitive advantage with
3:38:06this. But the things that we
3:38:11attribute as very closely attached to
3:38:14our sense of self and the things that we
3:38:16don't I think are really interesting.
3:38:18And the way that we speak would be one
3:38:20of those. But if somebody starts to
3:38:22expand that to everything that they do,
3:38:25wow, I mean this relationship is not
3:38:28going to work if you don't like the way
3:38:29that I open doors. You like that my door
3:38:31opening is that's a unique part of me.
3:38:33You're denying the person that I am by
3:38:35doing this. Okay. you know, this is
3:38:36really important to me. My door opening
3:38:38ability is really important to me. You
3:38:40go that and I wonder what uh
3:38:45the size of territory that somebody is
3:38:48or is not prepared to adjust. I wonder
3:38:51what that is, you know, at me. I have
3:38:54Yeah. I know I have so I think you wrote
3:38:57a longer blog piece I want to say a
3:38:59month or two ago about how
3:39:03um do people love me for the things that
3:39:05I do or do they love me for the person
3:39:07that I am and then the followup is do I
3:39:08love me for the things I do versus who
3:39:10you know who I am and I think I texted
3:39:11you afterwards which is what is the
3:39:14difference
3:39:16and I mean that now people get all the
3:39:18woo world gets really upset but when I
3:39:20but if you say if I said who is John the
3:39:23first thing that you would do to
3:39:25describe who John is is talk about what
3:39:27John does. And so I think that the whole
3:39:30being is XYZ thing just confuses a lot
3:39:34of people. And so our identity in you
3:39:37know Alex's worldview is just the
3:39:40amalgamation or the or the aggregation
3:39:42of all of the behaviors that we do just
3:39:44put together. It's all the stuff we do.
3:39:45We are like he is a
3:39:47carpenter. Chris has a podcast. He does
3:39:50podcasting. Like that's it's part of
3:39:51quote who you are. But like it's just
3:39:54what you do. And so to to hold a
3:39:58specific action that you have on a
3:40:00pedestal, you make it mean something.
3:40:03But fundamentally, it's just a behavior.
3:40:05And so I think that if we see ourselves
3:40:06as just this list of a thousand
3:40:08behaviors, then we get to ask the
3:40:11question, does me changing this behavior
3:40:14and going through the effort of doing
3:40:15that mean more to me than this
3:40:18relationship? And if the answer is no,
3:40:20well then then change it. And especially
3:40:22if it's at virtually no cost to you and
3:40:24a significant benefit to them. And I
3:40:26think that trade is when you when you
3:40:28see yourself as I am just a person who
3:40:30does these things then there's way less
3:40:32emotional rigidity uh with change
3:40:35because you're like oh well I'm happy to
3:40:37trade this for that. No big deal.
3:40:38Especially given that the thing that
3:40:41you're doing now in terms of a behavior
3:40:42might mean a little to you but not that
3:40:44much. And your pleasure in doing
3:40:47something that makes your partner really
3:40:49really happy could be infinite.
3:40:51Yeah. Uh, this is related to one of
3:40:54yours that I didn't do earlier on. Lazy
3:40:56people don't know how to start. Weak
3:40:58people don't know how to finish.
3:40:59Successful people don't know how to
3:41:01stop. People demand success but refuse
3:41:04to work weekends. People want
3:41:05opportunity but won't talk to strangers.
3:41:08People claim ambition but sleep in every
3:41:09day. We are the result of our actions,
3:41:12not our aspirations.
3:41:19I think once you've actually learned how
3:41:21to
3:41:22try really try one thing for an extended
3:41:27period of time every single day and
3:41:30taken all of your discretionary effort
3:41:32and your money and your time and your
3:41:33resources and put it towards just doing
3:41:36that
3:41:37thing. Number one, you realize how few
3:41:40things you can really do well because of
3:41:41the amount of time that it takes. Mhm.
3:41:43The second thing is you realize how easy
3:41:46it is to beat everyone else because of
3:41:47how few of them actually do that.
3:41:52And
3:41:55that learning how to try becomes a
3:41:58generalizable skill across domains.
3:42:01So when you do learn how to play the
3:42:03saxophone and if you want to pick up
3:42:05tennis, you think about how many
3:42:07sessions you did to fix your fix your
3:42:10fingers and you know play play a more
3:42:12advanced and a more advanced thing over
3:42:13and over again. And then when you when
3:42:15you realize that the domains are similar
3:42:17in terms of skill um achievement uh
3:42:22you're like oh this is the same thing.
3:42:26And then when you go like, "Oh, I need
3:42:28to make content now." It's like, "Oh,
3:42:29it's the same as hitting 500 forehands
3:42:31and 500 backhands and I make 500 tweets
3:42:33and 400 posts and if I do it for an
3:42:35extended period of time and I take the
3:42:36feedback and I don't stop, I'll probably
3:42:39beat most people." You also get to see
3:42:41uh if I am focused on playing the
3:42:43saxophone and becoming the best
3:42:44saxophone player that I can be, but I
3:42:46also want to be kind of good at tennis.
3:42:51The better that I get at playing the
3:42:52saxophone, the more repetitions it takes
3:42:54for me to become even one increment
3:42:56better. And in order for me to become
3:43:00even remotely in the same
3:43:02universe in tennis, how long's that
3:43:05going to take? And I need to work
3:43:07really, really hard. It's like when you
3:43:09play a computer game, right? You're
3:43:10playing some RPG and the first
3:43:13few levels it's just noob games all the
3:43:15way. you're level leveling up
3:43:17every time you turn it on and then
3:43:18people are grinding and grinding and
3:43:20grinding to get from level 94 to 95 to
3:43:2396. You go, well, all of the gains acrew
3:43:26to the people at the top. And if you've
3:43:29invested all of this time into this
3:43:31thing, you are getting per unit of
3:43:34effort way more back than you ever were
3:43:37in the beginning. Yeah. The difference
3:43:39is that you no longer feel the progress
3:43:41quite so much. So we have this odd issue
3:43:44that willpower at the end can sometimes
3:43:47Wayne but the returns are at their
3:43:50highest and the progress per unit of
3:43:52time put in is at its lowest and the
3:43:54inverse happens when we start something.
3:43:57And this is why when people get to the
3:43:59top of a thing plus motivation, which is
3:44:02maybe just like a a tiredness with the
3:44:06pursuit of a thing and a desire for
3:44:07novelty generally, which is maybe a
3:44:09little bit of of different, but this is
3:44:10why people get to a thing and
3:44:13then like this thing's tangential to
3:44:16that. Maybe I'm going to start, you
3:44:18know, I've been learning to play the
3:44:19saxophone for a long time. I learned to
3:44:20DJ. DJing is kind of the same. Just go,
3:44:22"Yeah, but you're you're starting again
3:44:25at this thing in the beginning." I maybe
3:44:27it can augment in a different way, you
3:44:29know, is it as close as I know lots
3:44:31about training, so I'm going to learn
3:44:33about diet. Or is it I know lots about
3:44:35lifting weight, so I'm going to learn
3:44:37about playing tennis. And some things
3:44:40augment and enrich, and other things
3:44:42detract and take away.
3:44:48I think the better you get at one
3:44:51thing, at least for
3:44:53me, the less it's made me want to do
3:44:56other things because I know what's going
3:44:57to take to do them to this same level.
3:45:00And then I think, well, if let's say I'm
3:45:03a nine out of 10 at saxophone and I
3:45:06would like to be a nine out of 10 at
3:45:08tennis, I know how much work it would
3:45:10take to be a nine out of 10 at tennis.
3:45:11And then I just wonder to myself, if I
3:45:13took all of that and put it right back
3:45:15in the nine out of 10 that I'm at
3:45:17saxophone, would I go from being top 100
3:45:19in the world to number one in the world?
3:45:21And then how different would my life be
3:45:23if I was a 9 out of 10 saxophone player
3:45:25to a 9 out of 10 tennis player versus a
3:45:2710 out of 10 sax player? And which life
3:45:29would I prefer? And I have tended to be
3:45:32a maximizer in my whole life. And so
3:45:33like I'm probably pretty my die is
3:45:36relatively cast in this perspective in
3:45:37terms of like I'll be doing business for
3:45:39the rest of my life. Uh it's the only
3:45:40game that I really enjoy that I spend
3:45:41all my time on. Um but I recently have
3:45:44had a really strong consideration that
3:45:46you and I talked about um which is I was
3:45:48I've been really strongly considering
3:45:50devoting myself to um taking meditation
3:45:53as a practice seriously. And the reason
3:45:56for that is because the literature on
3:45:58basically the standard deviation
3:46:00improvement in subjective well-being,
3:46:01basically how happy people are of um
3:46:04Buddhist monks who have meditated for
3:46:07like 40,000 plus hours is like three to
3:46:09four standard dev deviations above the
3:46:12the norm. Like monstrous. So to put
3:46:15context here, one standard deviation
3:46:17would take you from like 50% to like
3:46:1884%. In terms of like general
3:46:20population, if you're two standard
3:46:22deviations, you're at 99.
3:46:25That's two, three and four. And so
3:46:28what's interesting is that like a year
3:46:30of meditation gets you that first that
3:46:32first chunk at an hour a day. Uh I was
3:46:35looking at four hours a day, but um I'm
3:46:38aggressive. And so but the thing is is
3:46:40that in looking at this, it was
3:46:42basically like it in order to to to
3:46:43replicate those outcomes, it takes about
3:46:45four hours a day. Now, if you do an hour
3:46:47a day for a decade, you're going to get
3:46:48probably one, maybe one and a half,
3:46:50depending on who you are, whatever. And
3:46:52so I being a maxer was like, well, okay,
3:46:55let's start with spending $20 million on
3:46:57the house. Like, okay, if I if I spent
3:46:59all of my time that's available to doing
3:47:01this thing, would it be worth it? And
3:47:03the the thing that was that's been
3:47:04troubling me is that the answer is yes.
3:47:08And so, this is something that I've been
3:47:10it's like I I know what it looks like
3:47:11for me to go work really hard at
3:47:13something and I've just been like I've
3:47:14been teetering at the edge of this being
3:47:16like, okay, am I really going to do
3:47:17this? And so, everyone's getting this as
3:47:19a snapshot of where I'm currently at
3:47:20right now. um thinking through this
3:47:22because
3:47:24um the single greatest skill that you
3:47:27can develop is being in a great mood in
3:47:29the absence of things to be in a great
3:47:31mood about. And seeing these guys
3:47:33literally just take their median and
3:47:35just move it all the way up. They get
3:47:37the first arrow that hits them and they
3:47:39just completely avoid all the other
3:47:40second arrows and then it vanishes in
3:47:42the moment.
3:47:43And the uh description of what three to
3:47:47four standard deviations ahead um of of
3:47:50of subjective well-being is a constant
3:47:53state of bliss.
3:47:55Have you looked at Gary Weber's stuff?
3:47:57He's one of the guys he's he's a
3:48:00somebody who has uh become awakened,
3:48:02enlightened, like permanent abiding
3:48:04non-dual awareness. Oh, super cool type
3:48:06thing. And uh that's and he he's that
3:48:09way. His his description. I mean you you
3:48:11know it's uh un stress testable in many
3:48:14I guess put them in an fMRI but who
3:48:16knows if this is because of the
3:48:17meditation or they were the sort of
3:48:19person etc etc but unless everybody is
3:48:22part of the same grift which is to get
3:48:24you to sit in silence for a long time
3:48:26with your eyes closed the incentives
3:48:28don't seem to really be there to to get
3:48:30you to do that and the thing that's been
3:48:32like enticing me about it is and I don't
3:48:36know if you're the same way but like
3:48:37when I see how bad I am at something on
3:48:40My first few tries, I'm like, "Oh my
3:48:42god, my newbie gains are going to be
3:48:45through the through the roof." Because
3:48:48I'm a meditation hyper resppond. Oh my
3:48:49god. Well, me me trying to meditate is
3:48:52like is I'm so bad at it. So bad at it
3:48:56that I'm like I'm I I'm going to unlock
3:48:59so much. I'm so bad. Yeah.
3:49:03And so and I also like it because like
3:49:06it's fits so well in my worldview of
3:49:08like of course h having that level of
3:49:11happiness takes work. Of course it's not
3:49:14me changing my of because like I spent
3:49:16my life changing my external conditions.
3:49:18I I I literally live in a fortress of my
3:49:21own making. We are we are in one of two
3:49:24huge rooms that are my gym, right? And I
3:49:28I I look the way I look because of that
3:49:30effort. I married the person I wanted to
3:49:31marry. I I have the business like I did
3:49:33all of those things and yet this guy who
3:49:36has a chair in the middle of Tibet is is
3:49:39fist you and having he's just
3:49:41murdering you. Yeah. Well, this is, you
3:49:43know, we we spoke about this when we
3:49:45chatted the other week and I do think
3:49:47it's an important pivot and I think that
3:49:49the story as well is an important pivot
3:49:52uh more for you than for me, but for me
3:49:54a little too
3:49:57of you spend a long time trying to
3:50:00achieve things that you think are going
3:50:01to make you happy and fulfilled and they
3:50:04bring with it
3:50:06material objective real changes in life.
3:50:10And some of them are really important to
3:50:13frontload. And some of them can only be
3:50:15achieved at certain periods of your
3:50:16life.
3:50:20And after a while, you ask yourself, is
3:50:22this still the game that I need to keep
3:50:24playing? Yeah, I'm 10 out of 10 in this
3:50:27thing. And 11 doesn't exist, but tiny
3:50:31increments of tens do.
3:50:35If this isn't the
3:50:37answer, does it make sense to continue
3:50:39trying to fill an internal void with
3:50:44external goals? Yeah. And I think it's
3:50:48pretty cool to hear
3:50:50you look at a different even just
3:50:53consider uh a different mode of input
3:50:57with regards to that.
3:50:59And just for the record, I'm only doing
3:51:01it because I think unlocking the next
3:51:03level of achievement.
3:51:05Here we go. I have to I have to still
3:51:07have my logic brain for why it'd be
3:51:09worth it. Um, but no, it's it's um the I
3:51:12think the reason I'm so I'm I'm I'm
3:51:13actually considering it
3:51:16is it takes so much violent level of
3:51:19work.
3:51:20It's true though. The only way that
3:51:23anybody could describe meditation as
3:51:25viol the only way that you could
3:51:28convince yourself to do it is to call
3:51:29meditation violence. Um, but look, I I
3:51:33something and this is me stealing you
3:51:36and then repurposing it in a different
3:51:38way. Uh, we sacrifice the thing we want
3:51:41for the thing that's supposed to get it.
3:51:42Like we sacrifice happiness in order to
3:51:44become successful so that when we're
3:51:45sufficiently successful, we can finally
3:51:47be happy. And then if you were to make
3:51:49some sort of psychological equation and
3:51:52just strike off success from both sides,
3:51:56you kind of get left with the happiness
3:51:58piece. But we're not closed systems.
3:52:02Humans need a sense of validation. They
3:52:04want to be recognized by the world. We
3:52:05have goals that we want to do. And it is
3:52:07important to realize, it's an
3:52:10unteachable lesson. It's important to
3:52:12realize that the thing you thought was
3:52:13going to fill the void wasn't the thing.
3:52:14But you can't realize it wasn't the
3:52:16thing that was going to fill the void
3:52:17until you've got it. And then once you
3:52:19have, you go, "Okay, sick. Take that one
3:52:23off. Now allow me to move on to the more
3:52:26subtle insight that I could have never
3:52:29achieved had I have not gone there." And
3:52:31so when I was um 1920ish, kind of when
3:52:34you have a lot of these existential
3:52:36crises, it's very common time between 18
3:52:37to 22 when people develop their
3:52:38worldview, at least solidify some
3:52:40version of it. I strongly debated
3:52:43leaving everything and you know pursuing
3:52:45the meditation monk path because I saw I
3:52:47saw the same research that I'm looking
3:52:48at now 16 years later right and what was
3:52:52interesting was that that was actually
3:52:53during the process where I was like
3:52:54happiness I'm not I'm not going to even
3:52:56think about this anymore um and I made
3:52:59my new life goal to just be useful
3:53:01because the thing is is that and this
3:53:03might be me doing the the lame judgment
3:53:05on other people but me seeing a guy who
3:53:09sits in a hut and then just sits there
3:53:12and is happy for eight hours a day every
3:53:14day. I see that. I saw that. I try to
3:53:17have no judgment here, but as a waste
3:53:21because I think there's also a duty that
3:53:23we have to help other people. Now,
3:53:24that's a should. I want to be clear. So,
3:53:26you don't, you know, obviously you don't
3:53:27have to subscribe to that, but I at
3:53:29least have it deeply enough in me that I
3:53:31feel like we should be useful to one
3:53:32another. Um, and so I my desire to be
3:53:35useful has been greater than my desire
3:53:37to be happy. But if there is a world
3:53:40that at this point I can be both, I'm
3:53:43okay with it. Money doesn't buy
3:53:45happiness past $70,000 per year because
3:53:47spending money effectively is a skill
3:53:50and most people never acquire it. As
3:53:52someone who earns more than $70,000 a
3:53:54year, what have you learned about the
3:53:55skill of spending money effectively? So,
3:53:58so it's so funny because people assume
3:54:00that there are not levels to skills. Um,
3:54:03and I remember seeing, you know, my
3:54:05first billionaire start spending money.
3:54:07And I was like, whoa, that's a thing.
3:54:08Interesting. Um, and a lot of people who
3:54:11even do make money or save a lot of
3:54:13money never learn how to spend it. Well,
3:54:15now I'm not saying blow it on stupid
3:54:17things, but the the 3D learning that you
3:54:20described with um die with with Bill, he
3:54:24spent money to create that experience
3:54:26and it was probably worth it. And so the
3:54:30most people just limit themselves to
3:54:32house, car, food, travel. That's that's
3:54:36the majority of it. But there are so
3:54:38many other things that you can do with
3:54:40money that improve your daily experience
3:54:42that create memories that will pay
3:54:43memory dividends for a long period of
3:54:45time. Um, and the biggest the easiest
3:54:48ones to basically pay down are time. And
3:54:50so it costs roughly $1,500 a month to
3:54:54get about 90 hours a month back if you
3:54:58add up uh
3:55:01driving,
3:55:03gas, preparation, cooking, cleaning of
3:55:06food, cleaning of your
3:55:09dwelling, cleaning and prep of your
3:55:12clothing. If you put all of those things
3:55:14together, what the average American
3:55:16spends per week, it's about 20ish 25
3:55:18hours a week that they spend doing all
3:55:20of those things for themselves. And so
3:55:2390ish hours per month. And the
3:55:26cumulative cost of fixing all of that
3:55:28stuff is about 1,500 bucks a month.
3:55:30Well, that be a maid/housekeeper person
3:55:32who maybe could also cook or maybe a
3:55:34cook who's separate, a Uber daily. Yeah.
3:55:38Uh at the low end, later you could have
3:55:40a personal driver, but yeah, totally.
3:55:43Just those two. Those are the only two.
3:55:45Well, then you have uh food prep. We
3:55:47could do uh one. Yeah. One-stop shop,
3:55:50housekeeper, probably cost a little more
3:55:52there, but Yeah. Yeah. But it would fold
3:55:54two rolls into one. Yes. And so, but
3:55:56thinking about that and we have our
3:55:58$70,000 per year, you know, cap. But if
3:55:59we're assuming, okay, we're making more
3:56:00than that. If you make a million dollar
3:56:02a year, it's like, okay, would you be
3:56:03willing to spend 70 to get somebody who
3:56:06does all of those things for you? And
3:56:08you get a 100 hours a week. Well, as if
3:56:10you get the 100 hours back, let's just
3:56:11say it's let's say let's keep it at
3:56:13$5,000 a month for what we're willing to
3:56:15spend. So, more than that, okay? So, if
3:56:17you can make more than $50 an hour with
3:56:19your free time or you simply would pay
3:56:22$50 to get more free time to lie in a
3:56:24hammock that to lie in a hammock, then
3:56:26it's worth the trade or go wakeboarding.
3:56:28And so, I think the that most people
3:56:30have who who start making more money,
3:56:32they just stop at nice house, nice car,
3:56:34maybe nice clothes, and places to eat,
3:56:35occasional travel that they spend once
3:56:37or twice a year. That's it. That's all
3:56:38they do. But there's so many ways to
3:56:40improve your existing environment. I get
3:56:43the sense that it's actually the middle
3:56:44level. It's the people who maybe earn a
3:56:47100 grand a year in USD, maybe sort of
3:56:4970 grand, they're the ones who are
3:56:52likely to probably need this information
3:56:54the most because if you're up to the
3:56:56half a million, a million a year or
3:56:58something like that, it's like you
3:56:59you've probably realized that this is
3:57:02something that you can spend money on.
3:57:03People don't I talk to entrepreneurs all
3:57:04the time. Well, that's that's it's one
3:57:06of the first things I do when I look
3:57:07into a company. I say, "What do you
3:57:09like? Do you have do you have a
3:57:10housekeeper? Do you have a like and we
3:57:11go through all this stuff cuz the
3:57:13highest ROI money I can spend as an
3:57:15investor is getting a 100 hours a month
3:57:17back for the entrepreneur for 50 grand.
3:57:20My god." Well, I mean the Yes, that's
3:57:22crazy. Uh and also if you are someone
3:57:26who to whom an additional 50 grand a
3:57:30year of income would be 30% of your net
3:57:33worth or 30% of your annual income
3:57:34making 150 grand a year for you this
3:57:37opens up a lot more than it actually
3:57:39does for the guy that's let's say that I
3:57:41guess when you're making a million each
3:57:42hour that you would then spend would be
3:57:44worth more etc etc but yeah it's
3:57:47uh that overcoming that sense of I can
3:57:50do this for free
3:57:52therefore I shouldn't pay someone to do
3:57:54it. Guilt of spending, this sense of
3:57:57opulence and
3:57:59wastefulness, entitlement. Totally. Um,
3:58:02overcoming that has been a real a real
3:58:05challenge for me. And it's good that
3:58:06I've been around people like Bill,
3:58:08yourself. And, uh, it's almost like it's
3:58:12a very specific type of ambition and
3:58:14it's not ambition in the material sense,
3:58:16it's ambition in the life quality sense.
3:58:18Freedom. Yeah. Yeah.
3:58:21So, one of the things I think from today
3:58:23that's
3:58:25been novel or interesting to me has
3:58:29been updates in your worldview. So,
3:58:32reflecting on the last 12 months or so,
3:58:35what do you think are the things that
3:58:36you've changed your mind on the most or
3:58:38updated your beliefs on the most?
3:58:43Instead of saying
3:58:45happiness, I am open to the idea that I
3:58:48can be both useful and
3:58:51happy. I'd say that's probably the
3:58:54biggest one, that it's not a trade
3:58:55between the two. That's number one. I
3:58:57would say the second is getting very
3:59:00specific about moments and not
3:59:02extrapolating moments to days, weeks,
3:59:06months,
3:59:08years. This one good thing. Can I spread
3:59:11that wide and this one bad thing? Can I
3:59:13shrink it into the absolute smallest
3:59:15possible box? And making sure that I
3:59:17don't suffer the second
3:59:19arrow. I would say like if I had the two
3:59:22probably those are probably the two
3:59:24biggest things that I would
3:59:26say I have been actively working on for
3:59:30how I see
3:59:33reality. Well, I look forward to seeing
3:59:35what you've learned next time. I
3:59:37appreciate you, man. Thank you for
3:59:38having me. Thank you very much for I
3:59:41mean let's be honest you've made it to
3:59:42the end of an episode that's like four
3:59:43hours long. I there's a rarified number
3:59:46of people that have made it here. Uh so
3:59:48there's a treat for you which is an
3:59:50episode with an Indian less jacked
3:59:52version of Alex Hormosi Naval Ravikham
3:59:55waiting for you. Go on press it.

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