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35. Exonerated! - The Kristine Bunch Interview — Transcript

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0:00welcome to Crime to burn today we have a
0:02special guest Miss Christine Bunch we
0:05covered Christine's wrongful conviction
0:07case in episodes 32 and 33 to recap
0:11investigators accused Christine of a
0:13fatal arson that claimed the life of her
0:15son based on an outdated and debunked
0:17arson investigation myth when forensic
0:20evidence did not support their Theory
0:22investigators allegedly colluded with
0:24forensic chemists to alter test results
0:27which secured Christine's wrongful
0:29conviction and a judge sentenced her to
0:3160 years in prison for a crime she did
0:33not commit Christine Fought For Truth
0:36for nearly two decades and her
0:38conviction was ultimately overturned
0:40today Christine bunch is joining us to
0:42discuss the investigation that landed
0:44her in prison and discuss with us the
0:46work she's been doing since her release
0:48this is crime to
0:52burn welcome to Crime to burn where we
0:55explore the dark Sy landscape where True
0:58Crime intersects with arson and criminal
1:00negligence join us as we sift through
1:03the Ashes to bring you the story of what
1:05really
1:06[Music]
1:16happened welcome back to Crime to burn
1:18this is a special feature I am April a
1:20fire protection engineer and former
1:22firefighter and today we're joined by
1:24Christine Bunch welcome Christine thank
1:26you so much for joining us thank you so
1:29much for inviting fting me so the first
1:31question I have for you is is there
1:33anything that I got wrong that you heard
1:35in the episode that we need to correct
1:37for our listeners I think the big thing
1:39is you know people have this this
1:43misconception that when I left
1:45school that it was so I could you know
1:48just drift and party mhm I haven't
1:51shared often but my mom was in a very
1:55abusive relationship and would just
1:57disappear for weeks at a time so it was
2:00essentially my brother and I trying to
2:03keep everything going in our
2:06house and um Tom so it was a hardship it
2:10was very much a hardship Tom was the guy
2:14she dated that she didn't stay with
2:17because he was a good guy I mean he
2:20wanted you know her to straighten up and
2:23be a full-time mom and do what she was
2:25supposed to do so when they split up we
2:28were devastated because this is the
2:30first good guy she's dated that entire
2:33time and he stuck around he was there
2:36for us he became a sounding board he
2:39would take us to visit our dad who lived
2:40an hour away so he just you know stepped
2:44into that role and really became the
2:47father you know that we had there on
2:50hand my brother I mean that relationship
2:53is cemented he supported me through the
2:56whole ordeal right I don't think most
2:59people people know you know he was 17
3:01when this happened he ended up quitting
3:03school and working three jobs so he
3:05could take care of me he could take care
3:08of Trent after I gave birth my brother
3:11is still stepping out I take him to
3:14speaking engagements to talk about what
3:15it's like for family members and how he
3:18can support them so I think those are
3:21just you know personal things that
3:23people don't get from the transcripts or
3:25any of the
3:26reports well I'm really glad to hear
3:29that you had that that strong support
3:31network that obviously we don't get from
3:33the court transcripts and everything um
3:36and it sounds like Tom was was more than
3:38just a friend like I think I read that
3:40he actually Babys set your son while you
3:43were you're working on getting your
3:45welding certificate is that true he did
3:48he was actually the first person I told
3:51when I found out I was pregnant with
3:52Tony and it's always so shocking to me I
3:56got pregnant with Tony while I was on
3:58birth control so I'd been sick and had
4:02two rounds of antibiotic and I didn't
4:04realize that meant I wasn't
4:06protected so then when I went to the
4:08doctor I was like I've had the flu for
4:10four months I can't seem to get over it
4:13what's going on and so then he was the
4:16one to tell me you know we probably
4:18should have talked about this and now
4:21you're going to have a
4:22baby so I went back to Tom and I was
4:25like you know can I do this what you
4:28know what do you think what are my
4:30options and he said whatever you decide
4:32to do he said I'm going to help I'm
4:34going to support he said your brother
4:36will help we'll support and so he just
4:40he made me feel so secure in that he was
4:43the one that took me I went the
4:44following week and walked in and passed
4:46the GED test and then I went and got a
4:49couple jobs you know because that's what
4:51you do when you're going to be a parent
4:52you got to fix your life and show up for
4:55your kid and I do think that that is one
4:57thing I got wrong in the case I present
5:00it is that you got your
5:01GED when when you were pregnant I think
5:05and I think that I had read that you got
5:06your GED while you were incarcerated but
5:08you actually had that before you were
5:09incarcerated yes I did yes I don't want
5:12to to go through every specific thing of
5:15the fire again CU I want to really be
5:16able to focus on what your work is now
5:18but there's a couple things in the
5:20investigation that I wanted to ask you
5:22about um one of the things was I know
5:24the police questioned you right after
5:26the fire while you were in the hospital
5:29at that time did you know that they
5:31suspected arson or that they were
5:33looking at you as a potential suspect so
5:36when they first came in I hadn't even
5:38been admitted to the hospital they
5:40wanted a statement right after the
5:42ambulance had deposited me in the
5:44emergency room and my dad was the one
5:47who stepped in front and said no you
5:49need to wait a little bit you need to
5:51process because it wasn't I didn't know
5:54going to the hospital that Tony was gone
5:57mhm as soon as I got there and saw saw
5:59my dad I started crying and telling him
6:01you know I'm going to stay in the
6:02hospital with Tony until he gets better
6:05so my dad was the person that had to
6:07tell me that Tony didn't make it and it
6:11was like he no sooner said that and the
6:13police officer came through the curtains
6:15and said we need to take her statement
6:17and I was like oh yes sir I'll give you
6:19a statement i' never been in trouble
6:21with the law you know I didn't have any
6:24clue you know how you're supposed to act
6:26in that moment what your response is
6:29supposed to be right so my dad said no
6:32you need to wait so I was admitted and
6:36then they were back 2 hours later and
6:38they had told me that they had
6:39determined the cause of the fire was
6:41arson it couldn't have been anything but
6:43an arson and they wanted to know who
6:46could have come in and done that well
6:49essentially everybody that could have
6:51come in and done that was standing in my
6:52hospital room to support me I had a very
6:56small circle of family and friends I'm
6:59trying to to work I'm trying to go to
7:00school I'm trying to be a
7:02mom so at that point I'm afraid of
7:06literally everybody I think you know
7:09there's somebody standing in the shadows
7:10waiting to come get me wow that's a lot
7:14to take in especially and you were a
7:16very young mother you were 21 yes yeah I
7:19was trying to think back to what my life
7:21looked like at 21 and and I think that
7:23you handled yourself amazingly for a
7:2621-year-old in the situation that you
7:28were in um um did you know when you were
7:31in the hospital that you had the right
7:32to not talk to the police I mean not
7:35really when you're in that moment you
7:38feel like you know I'm innocent I didn't
7:40do anything wrong and you want to help
7:43especially when they tell you that
7:45somebody intentionally did this right so
7:48your first instinct is I I want to help
7:52I need to know who did this to my son I
7:54need to know who tried to do this to me
7:56I need to know why you know that's
7:59always a big burning question why did
8:01this happen who would have done this so
8:04it never occurred to me not to talk to
8:08them yeah I think that's true for a lot
8:10of us even even for me there I feel like
8:13there's this pull and I hear especially
8:15this this for a missing persons cases
8:19too where the police want to search the
8:21house and people they'll find something
8:24in the house that will make them think
8:28not well of the people that are really
8:31victims of a crime and then they'll
8:32start focusing on them instead of
8:34looking for the missing person and I
8:37feel like you know you need to protect
8:40your rights but you also don't want to
8:42prevent the police from getting
8:43information that might help them find
8:45your person and so I feel like a lot of
8:46people have this conflict of do I talk
8:48to the police do I not talk to the
8:49police so if you had to go back now
8:53knowing what you know now would you have
8:55talked to the police in the hospital or
8:57would you have called an attorney first
8:59I would have called an attorney so you
9:01advise everybody to always talk to the
9:02police with an attorney absolutely I
9:04tell everyone even if it's just an
9:07accident if police want to take a
9:09statement from you it is your right not
9:11to say anything and to request a lawyer
9:14or for kids you know get your parent
9:17there have somebody there advocating for
9:20you because when you're in that
9:23situation many many times you have just
9:26experienced or seen a traumatic event
9:30you're in shock you're trying to process
9:34what you have just witnessed or gone
9:36through and so I feel like that's a very
9:39vulnerable time where investigators step
9:42in and often you know the investigation
9:45goes in a direction it just shouldn't
9:48yeah that is so true I read that they
9:50also you were released from the hospital
9:52and I believe you went back to Tom's
9:54house after you released from the
9:56hospital and then the police contacted
9:58you to come into the station that night
10:00to talk to them did you know did were
10:03you still willingly talking to them at
10:04that point or were you starting to be a
10:06little more concerned about their views
10:09no that that night I thought they
10:12figured it out that's why they're
10:13calling me in so I show up I'm Barefoot
10:18I'm wearing borrowed clothes because I
10:20have literally lost everything
10:21everything's gone I go in this room and
10:25they're talking to me about insurance
10:27and my first response was to to
10:29apologize and say I'm sorry I know my
10:31car was destroyed I didn't have
10:33insurance on it and they come back with
10:37no we're talking about home insurance or
10:40life insurance and so my response I
10:43think caught them off guard because I
10:45laughed at them home insurance I can't
10:48afford insurance on my car you think I
10:50have insurance on my house and life
10:52insurance I'm 21 my baby is three you
10:56get that when you're old you know you
10:59don't think when you're that young that
11:01something's going to happen that you
11:03have to prepare for it you're just
11:06Invincible at that point I felt like I
11:08had everything going in the right
11:10direction and things were getting ready
11:12to be great for Tony and I and my
11:14brother mhm so it it never occurred to
11:18me until that moment they're looking at
11:20me they're focused on me and why there's
11:23no motive here you woke up in the
11:28trailer and it was Smoky and so they
11:30treated you for carbon monoxide exposure
11:32which we know can affect memory so I
11:37know for me I was involved in a very
11:40traumatic incident and my memories of
11:42that incident are snapshots like I don't
11:44have like a full movie in my head of
11:47everything that happened from start to
11:48finish so do you feel like your memories
11:51from that night are fragmented and
11:53you're sort of filling in blanks between
11:55or do you feel like you have a really
11:57good understanding of everything that
11:58happened
12:00I feel like um parts of it are
12:03snapshots and so you you can't um sit
12:09there and just go in a straight line
12:12like people want I mean when I woke up I
12:16it took me a minute to realize I was
12:17seeing smoke my first thought was it's
12:19foggy in here and so you're you know
12:24trying to grasp what happens and then in
12:26that moment the Panic sets in and you
12:29can't breathe you've got this weight
12:32sitting on your chest and you are in
12:35full blown survival and how do I get to
12:39my baby what do I have to do you aren't
12:42thinking about things like you know wait
12:44until the fire department gets there
12:46before you try to get into that room or
12:48all the things they tell you after the
12:50fact you are caught up in that
12:53moment so afterwards they didn't test me
12:57for my carbon monoxide I'm out they did
13:00treat me with oxygen I was on a
13:02breathing mask for a while and was
13:05coughing up black sputum yeah it's just
13:09um you don't know in that
13:12moment what's accurate and what's not
13:16that is so true it was used against me
13:19because I said I heard Tony wake me up
13:23and I heard him tell me it was
13:27hot I am an intelligent woman I know
13:31scientifically that my baby was gone
13:34before the Flames even broke out in my
13:38heart my baby woke me up and saved my
13:42life and so in that moment I was so sure
13:47that he was all right that he had gotten
13:49me out that he was going to get
13:51out and then you know I'm I'm running
13:55around trying to get into that room and
13:58I have neighbors who told me you know
14:00they held me back they smacked my face
14:02and told me I couldn't go back in the
14:04front door I had one one person that
14:07testified and he said he had a nervous
14:09breakdown afterwards because he kept
14:11hearing my screams mhm and for me I
14:15don't I don't remember
14:17screaming I just remember this Panic to
14:20get in there and I think a lot of people
14:22that haven't had the experience of a
14:25very traumatic moment where they were
14:27then required to go back through every
14:29little incident in the order that it
14:30happened like the police want you to
14:32don't realize how memory works in those
14:35moments um I was involved in a really
14:37traumatic moment and I'm just going to
14:39give you this one example CU I want our
14:40listeners to understand that in that
14:43moment there was somebody that was
14:45severely injured and I remember reaching
14:48into a bag that was nearby and pulling
14:50out a blanket to cover them up because I
14:51knew they were in shock but when and I
14:53can see that in my head and there's
14:55other witnesses that were there that
14:57assure me that that actually happened
14:59but when I see it in my head I see
15:01myself pulling out a quilt that I own
15:03that was custom made for me it was not
15:05there that day and so I don't think
15:08people realize that your brain will
15:10remember specific incidents but there's
15:12going to be holes and your brain will
15:14fill in something familiar even if it
15:18wasn't actually there in that moment and
15:20so memories especially during trauma are
15:24not fully reliable and I think that's
15:26really hard for a lot of people to
15:28understand until they've lived through
15:30it and I know when I was explaining to
15:32the police what happened they were
15:34asking me for specific details about
15:37that moment like you put a blanket on
15:39what color was the blanket and I was
15:42like I gave them completely the wrong
15:44color because that was what my brain
15:46filled in and so I think a lot of people
15:49don't understand that agreeing to
15:53questioning so soon after an event can
15:57be detrimental and even then once we've
15:59had time to process what happened your
16:02memories can be unreliable and I feel
16:05like police need more training in that
16:07that's my opinion I feel like they do as
16:09well when you were called to the police
16:12station that night you'd been in the
16:14hospital and they obviously treated you
16:16with oxygen and I think I read that you
16:18had some burns on your arms from trying
16:19to get back into into Tony's room um
16:22were you medicated at all like would
16:24this have been unethical for them to
16:26question you at this point I know never
16:29thought about it I was on um I think
16:32they gave me Xanax to calm me down and I
16:37don't know you know how much I was
16:39taking I don't know how much they gave
16:41me all of that kind of seems like it was
16:45this this period that I just get
16:47glimpses of because you're you're in
16:50shock my mom and my stepmom told me they
16:53gave me a shower while I was there in
16:56the
16:57hospital I had have absolutely no memory
17:00of that I remember waking up and I was
17:03clean again and you could see they had
17:05bandaged my feet because I'd ran over
17:07rocks and glass and cut my feet I had
17:11Burns and um a lot of my hair and my
17:14eyebrows and eyelashes were gone so
17:18there's a lot that they told me you know
17:20they came in and gave you medicine and
17:22I'm like okay okay because it's like you
17:25just can't grasp what's happening in
17:27that moment it's seems like everything
17:29is just kind of out of focus right I
17:32read in one article that the police
17:35actually attended Tony's funeral were
17:37they there at his funeral yes they were
17:42at the funeral home when my parents took
17:45me to plan the funeral they were at the
17:48store where I bought an outfit to wear
17:50to my baby's funeral they showed up at
17:53the funeral and then they showed up at
17:55the burial and that was the point that I
17:58was just just angry I didn't want to see
18:02them I wanted them out investigating
18:04you've told me it's this horrible crime
18:07I'm telling you I didn't do it where
18:10else are you looking because every time
18:12I look up I see you I can't I can't even
18:15imagine how infuriating I would be in
18:18that moment I probably would go to
18:20prison at that point for my reaction I
18:23that's this just makes me so angry and I
18:25just want to go outside and scream right
18:27now that's actually the point in time
18:30where they asked me to do a polygraph so
18:33they asked you to do a polygraph they
18:35asked me to do a polygraph because I
18:37said what's it going to take for me not
18:39to see you for you to get out and
18:41investigate this why are you here and
18:44they said well if you'll take a
18:45polygraph we can eliminate
18:48you and then I read that in that
18:52polygraph they asked you if you were
18:54responsible for the fire and you
18:55responded in the negative and then later
18:57on said that they didn't believe you and
19:00asked you why you did it which to me
19:03feels like entament it feels like they
19:05let you believe that you had exhibited
19:08some signs of of
19:10dishonesty do that was that what they
19:12were doing was entrapping you so I feel
19:15like it I feel like if you've ever
19:17watched any of the videos on false
19:20confessions that's what they were trying
19:22to get I mean they hooked me up they
19:24told me they were going to ask me a
19:25series of questions in fact he asked me
19:29three I answered no to all three you
19:33know did I buy accelerant did I start
19:35the fire did I kill my son and at that
19:37point he unhooked me and told me that
19:40you know the machine said that I was
19:43lying and I just needed to tell him what
19:45I did and I was like I didn't do
19:48anything and he said no he said I've
19:50been doing this a long time and he said
19:53I know I know that this machine does not
19:55ever get it wrong so you just need to
19:58tell me and I said I don't know I don't
20:00know that I did anything and I don't
20:02have anything to tell you so he badgered
20:05me for a while with that polygraph and
20:10something like that sticks with you
20:11somebody telling you you didn't pass it
20:14so during my exoneration process that
20:16was one of the things I wanted I wanted
20:19another polygraph I wanted somebody to
20:21show me the way it's done correctly MH I
20:24wanted to know I passed it and then my
20:27lawyers asked for that orig polygraph so
20:30they could look at the results and they
20:32claimed that they lost it they had no
20:35results to share with
20:36them wow wow so I'm guessing that if you
20:41knew then what you know now you would
20:43probably advise people not to take a
20:45polygraph if police encourage it or at
20:46least not without the presence of their
20:48attorney correct correct and and to be
20:52aware that even when you're being
20:53questioned by police whether it's with
20:55polygraph or without that the police Le
20:58don't have any requirements to be honest
21:01with you they can lie about the results
21:03of the polygraph they can lie about
21:05evidence that they have they can lie
21:07about a witness what a witness says um
21:09in order to try to coer you into saying
21:13something that they can twist into a
21:16confession um and I and I felt like
21:18that's what really happened to you with
21:19the polygraph um I know a couple days
21:21before your trial there's a headline in
21:24the newspaper or a story in the
21:26newspaper about you and they used what
21:28you said after the polygraph completely
21:30out of context right that I don't know
21:33yes I don't know why I I think it was I
21:35don't know why I did it um was what they
21:37quoted and and oh it just inflamed me
21:41did you feel like the the news cycle I
21:44know that the uh Susan Smith trial
21:47happened not long before your trial did
21:49you feel like the new cycle also sort of
21:51worked against you here because the
21:52public opinion was already being
21:55persuaded by this other huge trial and
21:57it made it easier for people to think
22:00poorly of you I definitely think that
22:04played into it I mean that was a very
22:08exposed case I mean every news station
22:11had it everybody was talking about this
22:14mother that could do the
22:16unthinkable and so I think that really
22:19played into it but what most people
22:21don't know I mean I was released on Bond
22:24and I had people screaming at me on the
22:27street murderer baby killer I was afraid
22:31to go anywhere to do anything and then
22:34you know people say well why were you
22:36self-medicating are are you kidding I'm
22:40getting nothing but all this ugliness on
22:43one side and I'm already broken on the
22:48inside and it's like I just at that
22:51moment I didn't care if I woke up yeah I
22:55read that in I read that quote from you
22:57in a story and I'm not going to lie it
22:59made me cry because I uh I'm getting all
23:02emotional now I um I just I can't
23:05imagine and I think that the fact that
23:07you persevered through all of this is
23:10honestly miraculous and no thanks to the
23:13investigators um because I really do
23:15think that you know they weren't fair
23:18they weren't impartial I also read that
23:21your attorney had never been involved in
23:25a murder case is that is that typical
23:28when you have a public defender that
23:30that you can get an unqualified Defender
23:32for your kind of case do you know
23:34absolutely it is I mean we have a
23:37limited budget for public
23:40defenders so it's a crapshoot people
23:43don't realize it's when you go into the
23:46system the prosecution side has all the
23:49resources everything that they need at
23:51their disposal where a public defender
23:54especially in a small County may be
23:57brand new he might have just gotten his
23:59law degree and he doesn't have the
24:02resources that the prosecution does so
24:05how can he adequately do a defense he's
24:10on the short end of the stick
24:12immediately and did he do you know if he
24:15ever requested the results of the gas
24:18chromatographs from the forensic testing
24:22I don't believe he did that was never
24:25something that was was mentioned at my
24:27trial you know we had fire
24:30investigators the problem was I mean I'm
24:34I'm just a lay person even to this day
24:36with everything I know I'm still just a
24:38lay person so if I'm sitting there and I
24:42can't understand what the investigators
24:44are saying how is my jury going to
24:47understand what the investigators are
24:49saying you you are essentially you know
24:52going up against somebody from the
24:54government from the
24:56ATF mhm and you need to make sure that
24:59people can understand what you're saying
25:01so I don't feel like that ever came
25:02across you know that's something that I
25:04struggle with a lot when you know you
25:07get these experts up on the stand and
25:09and I've seen this in other trials that
25:10I've been investigating they'll say
25:12something that's actually exculpatory
25:15but nobody in the courtroom understands
25:17it and so even the defense attorneys if
25:21they haven't had the budget or the
25:23wherewithal to hire an expert that can
25:26understand those things it sometimes
25:28gets completely glazed over and the jury
25:30never gets that understanding that
25:32should be potentially exculpatory or
25:35should at least be introducing some
25:37doubt it wasn't really until I started a
25:40true crime podcast about criminal fires
25:42that my complete faith in the justice
25:44system eroded I don't have any faith in
25:47it anymore because it is so it's so
25:50biased and if you don't have the
25:52finances to hire an attorney that is a
25:55bulldog and knows their stuff there's
25:58it's so likely that there's going to be
26:00things that get missed get overlooked
26:02your socioeconomic status should not
26:05determine how the justice system treats
26:07you and it absolutely does yes it does
26:11most people don't know that it really
26:13does how did you feel when you found out
26:20that the attorneys in Chicago at from
26:23Northwestern were going to be taking on
26:26your PCR case
26:29W
26:30um I mean that's that's right up there
26:33with the moment I walked out of prison I
26:37mean these are innocence Network
26:40attorneys and when they walked in you
26:43know I'm I'm trying to sell it and so
26:46I'm telling them everything I know that
26:49we need to get the ATF file that we need
26:52to look at the photographs that we need
26:54to you know get every piece of evidence
26:56they've got and you try to used against
26:58me and re-evaluate it and I'm letting
27:02him know everything that I know about
27:05fires everything I've investigated up
27:07until that
27:09time and I remember my attorney Jane she
27:12squeezed my hand and she said just talk
27:14to me like a
27:16mom and I just started crying and I
27:19said I wouldn't have ever done this I
27:23said I didn't plan for Tony but he was
27:25the greatest gift I was ever given in my
27:28life life I said you know when you
27:30become a mom you discover you're not
27:32just seeing things through your eyes
27:34you're seeing it all over again through
27:36your child's eyes and it brings this
27:38sense of
27:39wonder and beauty that you have
27:43forgotten because we're
27:45so I guess cynical about the world and
27:49so when you have a kid they make it seem
27:52like anything's possible and so they
27:54left and I was told you know they'll
27:57make a decision and I waited three
27:59months before I got that decision so
28:01when I got it I was like this this is it
28:05this is the
28:06moment did you feel like that really
28:08leveled the playing field finally that
28:10finally you were starting on a Level
28:12Playing Field with the justice
28:14system I did until we got the ATF file
28:18and I discovered that the the report
28:20used against me had been
28:24altered and I know that the forensic
28:27chemist Canard passed away in 2013 but
28:31during this whole um PCR process did
28:35anyone ever question him or was he ever
28:37called to account for why the report was
28:40changed he was not all we could go off
28:44of was what he had already testified to
28:47and then um my investigators Jamie
28:51mallister John Dean Mali they went back
28:55through it and said you know clearly he
28:58knew from the gas chromatograph that
29:01there was no accelerant there so to do
29:05this at the time of trial meant that
29:08someone was trying to mislead the jury
29:10to think that there was some kind of an
29:12accelerant that was there that was
29:14not and you know I have a lot of mixed
29:16feelings about this because I know that
29:18the arson investigation method has now
29:21been debunked that a lot of arson
29:23investigators were told and taught that
29:27when you have a reg ly shaped burn
29:28patterns on the floor that that is proof
29:30positive that there is an
29:32accelerant we now know that this has
29:34been disproven we know that flashover
29:38melted
29:39polyurethanes um even ventilation
29:42Pathways in the fire that uh can cause
29:44these types of irregularly shaped burn
29:46patterns so you know part of me wants to
29:49to have a little bit of compassion for
29:51the investigators who honestly believed
29:54because they were taught improperly that
29:56this was ourson but on the other hand
29:59it's not their job to get up in court
30:01and give their belief it's their job to
30:03get up in court and tell the truth and
30:05let the jury decide whether or not
30:07there's Reasonable Doubt and so you know
30:10it's at some level I have like this
30:12Little Bit of Sympathy for the
30:14investigators but the fact that they
30:16went and falsified
30:19evidence and allegedly colluded to
30:23modify this report just I I don't know
30:27how it doesn't make everyone wanted to
30:28just go burn the justice system to the
30:30ground just makes me
30:33Furious it really does me too I speak
30:37often about the forensics of fire
30:39science and it's really easy in a
30:42classroom because there's two doors
30:44leading in on either side and so I
30:46explained to them they have walked the
30:48same way in and out those doors every
30:50single day for years if half of it burns
30:53by an accident and the other half is by
30:56arson you will see the same pattern on
30:58the floor walking in and out of those
31:00doors and over to their desks the same
31:02day because we have compressed those
31:05fibers we have wore down that path so it
31:08burns differently and then any
31:11polyurethane in the room is going to
31:13melt and puddle and go to that track
31:16that's wore down a little differently so
31:19there is no science there it just means
31:22that's a traffic
31:24pattern we don't you know if the gas
31:27chromatograph does not show carbon
31:29points for an accelerant there is
31:31nothing there and I think that's what we
31:33lose when we're talking to these experts
31:36we have one definite science that's
31:40DNA the other ones have scientific
31:43methods but I feel like too too often we
31:47get investigators in there that push it
31:49beyond the limits and say it's something
31:51more than the little bit of evidence
31:54they have that is so true and one of the
31:57things that I talk about a lot um I've
31:59talked about it in our social media
32:01accounts is
32:02that there are things that can
32:05masquerade as accelerance even in
32:08Laboratory Testing a lot of times the
32:10types of mastics that they use to adhere
32:12like floor tiles or to adhere um like
32:16those uh lenium and floor coverings and
32:19stuff can absolutely have hydrocarbons
32:21in them almost everything we put in our
32:24houses these days have hydrocarbons and
32:26so to just look at one result and say oh
32:28there's a hydrocarbon here there's an
32:29accelerant can be exceptionally
32:31misleading if you're not looking at
32:33everything that's in the room and
32:34determining if something could have
32:35melted and left hydrocarbon there or how
32:37was the floor fixed to the subfloor was
32:39there hydrocarbon there and so I think
32:42that especially in cases where people
32:44are being defended by a public defender
32:45and have limited budgets where they
32:47can't hire experts to look at the
32:50forensics these people aren't getting
32:52Fair trials because everyone needs to
32:55have that look over their shoulder
32:57everyone needs to be able to say here's
32:59my scientific proof that I have gotten
33:01from Laboratory Testing and somebody
33:03else needs to peer-review that from a
33:05different perspective and say if I was
33:07looking at this trying to disprove it
33:09how could I disprove it because that's
33:11the only way to get to the closest
33:13approximation of truth that we can get
33:15without an absolute science like DNA it
33:17bothers me that there are certain states
33:20that I can take the arson investigation
33:22test and pass it I'm a lay person there
33:25should be extra train tring
33:28certifications for arson investigators
33:30and the fact that we just don't care
33:32enough to make sure they have that
33:34training that bothers me on every
33:37level and it should and here's something
33:39that I always tell people in their
33:40communities when they're looking at
33:42people that get really involved in their
33:44communities especially in budgeting as I
33:47tell
33:48people your arson investigators you're
33:52uh forensic investigators your
33:55investigators they need the budgets to
33:58go and get the training that's available
34:00and because so many of these towns and
34:03cities and municipalities especially in
34:05rule areas are working on Sho string
34:07budgets just because someone has arson
34:10investigator behind their name doesn't
34:11mean that they're an expert I went to
34:13college for four actually I went for 5
34:15and A2 years but that's another story
34:17for 5 and A2 years to study fire and to
34:21study the physics of fire to become a
34:22fire protection engineer and when people
34:25mistake me all the time as saying oh
34:28she's a fire investigator I'm like no
34:29I'm not I'm a fire protection engineer I
34:31actually didn't learn anything about
34:32investigating fires but I learned a lot
34:34about the physics of fire and how it
34:35works but why aren't our fire
34:40investigators fire protection
34:41Engineers where they have spent years
34:44and years studying the physics of fire
34:45and there's one answer one answer only
34:47and that is budgets it is expensive
34:51there's only two colleges in the United
34:53States that have undergraduate fire
34:54protection engineering programs and
34:56there's a couple more that graduate
34:58programs but even getting access to the
35:01information that we have to teach people
35:05fire Dynamics it's so rare to find
35:08people that are truly fire experts you
35:11know when you talked about the experts
35:12that helped in your case um those are
35:15names I've heard of and that shouldn't
35:18be the case there should be so many
35:21experts out there on fire that we
35:23shouldn't be able to recognize our fire
35:25experts by name we should be like well
35:27where is he and who's he work with and
35:30you know trying to find that but there's
35:32like there's no Six Degrees of
35:33Separation I I joke that in our industry
35:36we all know each other cuz we all went
35:38to the same College we all work together
35:42absolutely when they told me that John
35:44Dean was coming in to testify at my
35:48postconviction relief hearing I was like
35:51holy smokes that guy wrote the manual
35:53the manual I've been reading this
35:54National Fire Protection Agency manual
35:57and they were like yeah how do you know
35:59that I I read it I read it I know I was
36:02so impressed with how much research you
36:05did now I read that when you were doing
36:08research in the law library and reading
36:10your court transcripts that there was
36:12words you didn't understand so you read
36:15other arson cases to try to get context
36:18to understand the that terminology and I
36:21was like that's really smart well I mean
36:25just reading a V pattern
36:28I'm like what what does that mean and so
36:32then to find out that it means something
36:33burnt there and you know something burnt
36:36there because the smoke went up and made
36:37a V pattern why don't we just say the
36:41smoke went up and made a V pattern we
36:43don't necessarily know what burnt there
36:45we just know there was something there
36:47that created this V pattern so a lot of
36:50the time when I was reading through it I
36:51was like don't we have you know fire
36:55science for dummies or
36:57something we don't we
37:00don't no in fact the NFPA codes are
37:03hundreds and hundreds of codes long and
37:05I have all of them because it's my day
37:07job to interpret code but even now I've
37:11been doing interpreting fire codes for
37:13over 20 years and I joke with people all
37:16the time that I every single day in my
37:19job I run into something we didn't
37:21anticipate and it's not addressed in
37:23code and there's no good way to address
37:25it and we have to use engineering
37:26judgment
37:28and that shouldn't be the case when
37:29we're talking about somebody's future
37:32and their freedom you know we need to be
37:36we need to be saying in court when we're
37:40positive about something and when we're
37:42making logical leaps or engineering
37:45judgment because that can introduce
37:48Reasonable Doubt and that's the basis of
37:50a fair trial is truth and I I'm the more
37:56I dig into arson cases the matter I get
37:58but um I just I think that it was really
38:02intelligent of you to take your court
38:06transcript and to really start digging
38:08into it on your own and I read that you
38:11got a copy of NFPA
38:13921 I do and I could not check it out at
38:18the prison library because it's a
38:19reference copy from the public library
38:22so it cost me 10 cents a page to
38:25photocopy it and I could only get so
38:27many pages each
38:29week so yes I still have that
38:34photocopy book with my notes in the
38:37margins and my
38:39Post-its wow that is that is
38:43fascinating I I mean I read codes day in
38:48and day out for the past 20 years and I
38:50still sometimes I'm like what do they
38:53mean by this and you go NFPA has a
38:57chapter on definitions in every code and
38:58so you'll go to the chapter on
38:59definitions and they'll be words that
39:01they use in the code that sometimes
39:02aren't in those definitions and then
39:03you're supposed to go to like the
39:04regular
39:06dictionary and sometimes whether or not
39:09something is proper or correct hinges on
39:13a word that's not well defined in the
39:15code and so it requires interpretation
39:17and a lot of people don't understand
39:19that that there is so much room for
39:21interpretation in codes and it can vary
39:24even from jurisdiction to jurisdiction
39:26how areas of the code are
39:29interpreted and so I would encourage
39:31anyone if you ever God forbid are
39:35facing um an
39:37arson accusation you have to H you have
39:40to insist your lawyer hires a fire
39:43expert that is a real fire expert
39:46somebody that really understands not
39:48just what the code says but understands
39:50the physics of
39:51fire absolutely and I would also throw
39:54in find someone who can break it down to
39:56lay terms because a lot of times you'll
40:00find an investigator and they're talking
40:02over your head you can't really follow
40:06and so you truly have a jury of your
40:09peers so if you're just a high school
40:11educated
40:12person you're more than likely to have a
40:16few people that are just high school
40:17education if you can't follow it they're
40:21not following
40:22it all right I have a couple more areas
40:25of questioning I want to be sure to get
40:26to and we can can always come back to
40:28anything else that you want to talk
40:29about at the end but I want to make sure
40:31I I don't want to waste your time but
40:33one of the questions I wanted to ask you
40:35was when you went into prison you were
40:37pregnant with your second son what sort
40:39of medical support did you receive as a
40:42pregnant woman in
40:44prison you get an extra milk and a
40:47pregnancy
40:48snack that's it that's it did you have
40:52prenatal care ultrasounds anything to
40:54make sure that the baby was okay um you
40:57were taken out to the hospital they
41:00don't do any of that inside the prison
41:03so you have to go for clinic visits and
41:05so what most people don't know is you
41:07are handcuffed and Shackled when you go
41:09out for those visits they don't put the
41:12belly chain on you because the baby's
41:14not a prisoner so pregnant women they
41:17get out of that but they don't have
41:20enough soft cuffs for everybody so I
41:24would come back and um the girls that I
41:27was incarcerated with would tape pads to
41:30the back of my ankles and the front of
41:32my feet because the shackles would dig
41:36in and actually cut
41:38me because you would be out all day I
41:40mean they would take you out first thing
41:42in the morning and you had to wait till
41:43every single pregnant woman was seen and
41:46then you would all go back together at
41:48the end of the day so as you're sitting
41:50there and your feet are swollen they're
41:52already swollen because you're pregnant
41:54they're digging into you
41:57and then when you went into labor and
42:00were taken to the hospital you delivered
42:03your second son via C-section how long
42:06was it before you went back to prison 36
42:10hours 36 hours and what extra support
42:14did you get when you were back in prison
42:16as you were trying to heal from a
42:17C-section um nothing at first because
42:20they released me right back to normal
42:23duties and then they realized after a
42:25couple of days of going up and down the
42:27stairs that I had pulled my
42:30Staples so at that point they put me on
42:32bed rest for a couple weeks they put you
42:35on normal duties 36 hours after major
42:38abdominal surgery
42:40yes hang on I need to digest that for a
42:43second I had my daughter VC
42:46section I couldn't get out of bed to go
42:48to the bathroom without help oh it makes
42:51me so mad cleansing
42:53breath when you went for your initial
42:56PCR hearing you went in front of the
42:59same judge that had sentenced you and
43:02the same judge that had criticized you
43:04for quote getting pregnant to Garner
43:06support
43:07unquote what was it like standing in
43:09that same courtroom again in front of
43:11that same
43:13judge I also had the same prosecutor so
43:18going in
43:19there um you know my handcuffs and
43:22shackles are as tight as they can
43:24possibly be I am sitting there next to
43:26my lawyers I have a deputy sheriff over
43:29my shoulder here's my prosecutor talking
43:32about we don't need these high flutin
43:35lawyers coming from Chicago telling us
43:37how to do business here in
43:40Indiana and as the fire investigators
43:43started
43:45sharing what they had learned looking at
43:47the
43:49evidence the sheriff that was there with
43:51me come over and removed my handcuffs
43:53and shackles and brought me a bottle of
43:55water and then that night when we got
43:58ready to leave cuz we had 2 days of the
44:00evidentiary hearing they come back over
44:02and said you're not going to go anywhere
44:04we're not going to handcuff and shackle
44:06you so they took me back over there and
44:08they were keeping my dinner warm for me
44:11because they had already served dinner
44:12in the
44:13jail and so this was you know a total
44:17360 because when I first went to court
44:20they were giving me moldy bread they
44:23just didn't care you know they treated
44:26me like a baby killer so to have you
44:30know
44:32such profound testimony and see the
44:35effect on it on law enforcement that was
44:37there with me I thought that was really
44:39mon
44:41Monumental knowing that everyone else
44:43that was in the courtroom realized the
44:46Injustice that was carried out by
44:48removing her shackles the different way
44:51they treated
44:52you was it just completely a gut punch
44:55to find out that that
44:57judge later I think it was wasn't it
45:00like 8 months it took him to decide on
45:02the PCR yes and then he denied it yes he
45:07said that none of the New Evidence would
45:09have made a difference to my
45:11jury so at that point
45:14you're you know trying to decide what to
45:18do and um my lawyers my lawyers they are
45:23rock stars they walked in there and said
45:25we're going to fight we're going to
45:26fight all the way to the end we are
45:28never giving up on you you just need to
45:31stay strong and I'm like I'm I'm strong
45:33let's do this and so they they break it
45:36down for you when you go to appeal that
45:38decision they pick one case out of a
45:40hundred for oral
45:42argument and so I thought about it and I
45:46was like let's do it they're going to
45:47pick our case and they picked our
45:50case did the lawyers prepare you for the
45:55potential that the judge was going to
45:57deny the PCR and that you going to have
45:59to appeal were you expecting to go to
46:01appeal or were you really expecting that
46:04you would probably win based on the New
46:06Evidence I was expecting to go to appeal
46:09you were my judge and prosecutor had
46:13nothing nice to say about
46:16me they dismissed and treated my
46:20investigators who are the topof thee
46:23line fire investigators they treated
46:26them like they were you know from
46:29Podunk USA and had no intelligence to
46:34speak on fire science and so at that
46:38point I pretty much knew you know we're
46:41not getting anywhere here this isn't
46:44going to
46:45happen and then when they went and
46:49presented oral arguments in front of the
46:51Indiana Supreme Court you were not
46:53permitted to go to that hearing were you
46:56was not no prisoners go to the appell
46:59court to listen so I had um Church
47:03volunteers that actually showed up and
47:07they come back in to the facility and
47:10told me she said I met your lawyer who
47:13did an incredible job and she said I
47:15also met his wife and his kids because
47:18he brought them with him and said I
47:21wanted them to know this is the reason
47:23I'm fighting this is what we're fighting
47:26for and she said it was so beautiful to
47:28me and I just started crying because
47:32they literally latched on to me and
47:34treated me like family my lawyers had my
47:38back through it
47:40all and you know they're they're
47:43superheroes in my
47:46book yeah I think you're a superhero in
47:48my book I don't know how you survived
47:50all this to be honest with you and then
47:52to have the wherewithal to find out that
47:54your initial appeal before for the PCR
47:57but your initial appeal um which claimed
48:00that your rights were violated in court
48:03failed but your lawyer didn't even come
48:05to court to tell you you you got a
48:07letter yes I that would have been my
48:10giving up point I'm not going to lie
48:11that would have been my I'm done um but
48:14then you in the article I read it said
48:16you you cried that day and you got up
48:19the next day and was like I don't have
48:20the luxury I don't have the luxury of
48:23giving up here I got to figure out what
48:24I'm doing next and I just was like wow
48:28that is a that is strength right there
48:31and then to find out about the forensic
48:35evidence and be like this is it this is
48:38my golden ticket this is this is proof
48:41that I was treated unfairly and that the
48:43jury didn't have the information that
48:45they needed and still have a judge say
48:47not good enough that would have been my
48:50second giving up point that would have
48:51been my am never getting out of bed
48:53again and
48:54then to know that they went in front of
48:58the appell at court and that they argued
49:02the case without you there and have to
49:05wait was it another 8 months I think it
49:09was and of course my attorneys are
49:11trying to prepare me because usually the
49:13appell court comes back very quickly so
49:16they're trying to prepare me for a
49:19denial and I said let's just wait let's
49:21just wait till we get it so
49:25um I don't even remember where I was
49:27that morning I was called back to the
49:29unit to speak to my attorney in the
49:31counselor's
49:32office and so when I picked up the phone
49:35she said we won we did it and she said
49:38you are going to get another day in
49:40court and people are going to get to
49:42hear your
49:44truth and so I I walked out of there I'm
49:48Walking on Air at that point and I don't
49:51think it's really sunk in except she had
49:54to go through a lot of staff memb numers
49:57in order to get a phone call over to my
49:59counselor and so every single one wanted
50:01to know why are you calling because of
50:03course I've been on the news I've been
50:05in the paper people know and so that day
50:08I had lunch with um the head of
50:12classification and the major over the
50:15custodial staff and they're
50:18congratulating me and talking about what
50:20are you going to do when you get out and
50:22I was like you know I'm going to walk in
50:24the grass
50:25Barefoot I want to feel the grass I want
50:28to know that I'm I'm able to go do
50:31that and one of the first things that
50:33you did when you got out was go visit
50:36Tony's grave is that correct yes and I
50:40read that even there that you were being
50:43um photographed and videoed and I
50:47just I just feel like I know it's not my
50:50fault I want to apologize to you because
50:52that is you that should not have been a
50:54moment that was sullied by
50:57that kind of
50:58intrusion what do you want what what
51:01would what do you want people to
51:02remember about
51:04Tony I want them to
51:08remember that he was beautiful he really
51:11was I saw I saw pictures of him he was
51:13beautiful he saw the world in this
51:16incredibly perfect way a way that I
51:19still can't fully grasp because I have
51:23been warped a little bit by our justice
51:25system
51:27that he loved to go fishing that he
51:29chased butterflies he called them
51:33flutterbys and you know he probably
51:37didn't
51:38have the perfect upbringing because he
51:43like to watch Arnold and would tell
51:45everybody I'll be back and he played
51:48Nintendo with my brother and his friends
51:50and he was better at it than me at 3
51:52years
51:54old and when
51:57life gets me down and I think I just
51:59can't take it another
52:01day I remember that he would have found
52:04something
52:05beautiful and I keep
52:08going after your release you actually
52:11started a nonprofit you co-founded a
52:13nonprofit is that correct that's correct
52:17and the goal of the nonprofit I read was
52:19to connect people like you with
52:22resources in the community can you talk
52:24to me a little bit about what kinds of
52:25resources that you needed help with
52:28after you were released absolutely I
52:31mean people don't realize most wrongful
52:34convictions it takes a long time to
52:35overturn them so I had never had a cell
52:39phone I had never been on the internet I
52:44used cash not credit cards or an app to
52:48pay for something um I had no clue about
52:51using
52:52email I didn't understand you know why
52:55they took the mobs away from water when
52:59I was in you know now it's a sensor and
53:01it's not like you have a handbook that
53:03tells you hey when you go in there you
53:04need to run your hands underneath there
53:07and the water's going to kick on so all
53:10of those things
53:13really made me feel like I'm not going
53:15to be able to step back into life and
53:18having people just understand that
53:21understand that I'm not comfortable
53:23going out in public because I don't know
53:25am I going to have to inter act with
53:27something that I don't understand am I
53:28going to have to order from a kiosk you
53:31know what what am I going to look like
53:33while I'm out doing that so you're so
53:36isolated in those moments I went to work
53:39right after I got out for Northwestern
53:41University mhm those students introduced
53:45me to things they gave me courage they
53:48took me in and taught me how to order it
53:50Starbucks because you don't understand
53:52about a shot of this and a flavor of
53:54this and I'm still scared to order a
53:56star Buck absolutely and so they just
54:00made me feel like you know it's okay you
54:03don't have to know everything and so
54:06that's really what opened my eyes to you
54:08know people can get involved and can
54:10help in ways that don't cost anything
54:14except some of your time you know some
54:16of them have never seen a computer show
54:19them how to turn it on show them how to
54:21set up an email show them what they can
54:23do cuz I guarantee they're going to soar
54:26once you give them the
54:27tools um this past year I closed down J
54:32for J which is what we called it for
54:34short just because when we initially
54:36opened it it was just for people that
54:39have been fully
54:41exonerated with covid we had a number of
54:44people that were Innocence Project
54:46clients that were given clemencies that
54:49were pushed
54:51out so technically they haven't been
54:53fully
54:54exonerated but they deserve the same
54:56help that I do and so through the non
54:59for-profit my hands were really tied and
55:01I couldn't do anything and I was like
55:02you know what we're going to stop this
55:05and I'm going to start working with
55:06other non-for-profits and we're going to
55:08help the whole Community because we are
55:11a community and we need to be there to
55:13support people so what organizations
55:17exist now if people are hearing the
55:19story and they're you know not aware or
55:22hadn't thought about these issues people
55:24come out of incarceration
55:26what can they do in their communities to
55:30help resolve these problems to help
55:32these people reintegrate into
55:34societ there are some incredible
55:37exonerated Le organizations life after
55:40Justice exonerated Nation organization
55:44of exonorees you can go right on Google
55:47those names everything is going to pop
55:50up be a volunteer in your area every
55:54area has an Innocence Project
55:56connect with them and tell them you
55:58would like to volunteer and offer
55:59support for
56:01Exon it's just that easy and I would go
56:04a step further and say not just Exon
56:07need this support we have people that
56:09were incarcerated and even if they were
56:12not wrongfully convicted once they serve
56:14their sentence the reintegration process
56:17into society is exceptionally difficult
56:22and from examples that I have seen in my
56:25community we seen people that they have
56:28they come out of of being incarcerated
56:30with no support system they don't have
56:32family they're Indigent essentially they
56:35come out with whatever money they had
56:37left in commissary on a little debit
56:40card and then they have to pay for their
56:42own drug testing they have to be able to
56:44get to their probation meetings without
56:45transportation they have a time limit
56:47for H for getting a job and they have to
56:50be able to prove that they're looking
56:51for a job but they don't have
56:52transportation to get there and they
56:53don't have a phone to answer when the
56:55employer calls them so I don't like I
56:57have seen in my community that we give
57:00these people no support there's no
57:02organization to help these people as
57:05they try to transition back in society
57:07and once they've paid their
57:09debt they should they need that
57:11opportunity to transition back to
57:13society because what in my mind drives
57:16people to criminal activity is when they
57:18don't have good choices available to
57:20them they only have bad choices to get
57:22by and what if we're not giving them a
57:25choice to be able to afford the
57:27transportation to get to the required
57:28meetings or to be able to afford the
57:29required drug testing then we're
57:31basically saying well if you can't
57:33afford this then you know you're
57:35breaking the conditions of your parole
57:37and you're going to have to go back so
57:39what choices are we giving them and it
57:41just it infuriates me so I would
57:44encourage people I'm going to link all
57:45the organizations you mentioned in our
57:47show notes for people that want to get
57:49involved with helping Exon EES but I
57:51would also encourage people to look for
57:53opportunities to help just formerly
57:55incarcerated people whether they're
57:57exies or not like you said there's a lot
57:58of people in prison that serve their
58:01full sentence and are not guilty because
58:05the Innocence Project never had the
58:07opportunity to pick up their case or
58:09they didn't have Fair representation or
58:12they had an inexperienced attorney and
58:15we need to be giving these people the
58:16opportunity to reintegrate into
58:18society effectively without having to
58:21make bad decisions to do it absolutely I
58:24would also throw in there if you offer
58:27somebody a job that will be the best
58:31employee you have ever gotten because
58:34they are so happy that somebody had
58:36faith in them somebody saw that they
58:38could come back and pre productive and
58:40they won't do anything to mess that up
58:43and they will be loyal to that job and
58:45do their best every single
58:48day and then the other question I wanted
58:50to ask you is as a mother that gave
58:54birth while incarcerated
58:57what do you want to see happen to help
59:00support mothers in prison because these
59:03children even if we're talking about a
59:05guilty mother these children didn't do
59:08anything to deserve to have their
59:10relationship with their parents severed
59:12in a way that our justice system does so
59:15where where do we need to go from here
59:17how do we help maintain these family
59:20relationships through
59:23incarceration absolutely I think what
59:26most people don't realize is when you
59:28get a a job in a prison like mine paid a
59:31dollar per day for an 8 hour job so a
59:36lot of times we're talking about
59:38privatized facilities so I may make a
59:41dollar sewing you know prison uniforms
59:45that they're going to turn around and
59:46sell to another prison for $20 a
59:51uniform so when you take in everything
59:55that they don't provide provide because
59:56a lot of times women have to buy their
59:58own sanitary napkins and tampons because
1:00:00they don't provide it or they don't
1:00:02provide enough they have to buy all of
1:00:05their hygiene there isn't a lot left
1:00:07over for stamps so they can write their
1:00:10kids you're given two stamps per month
1:00:14that's supposed to go for legal mail
1:00:17that's it so I mean donating cards and
1:00:20stamps or even you know art supplies so
1:00:23the moms can make cards and letters for
1:00:26their kids and send it off that's a
1:00:28great way to get involved but think you
1:00:31know further out it doesn't take
1:00:35anything to get a company to donate
1:00:38cassette
1:00:39players go in let the mom pick out a
1:00:43book record reading that story to her
1:00:46child and then give that child the
1:00:48headset the book and the cassette so
1:00:51they can hear their mom reading them
1:00:53stories find ways that you can get those
1:00:56stuffed animals with those little voice
1:00:58boxes where the parent can record a
1:01:01message to their child and every time
1:01:03they push it they hear their mom or dad
1:01:05telling them I love
1:01:07you I think a lot of people just never
1:01:10think about what they could be doing in
1:01:15their communities and they never think
1:01:17about what the impacts on families are
1:01:20because even if somebody in your family
1:01:22is incarcerated whether wrongfully or
1:01:24not
1:01:26everyone in that family pays a price
1:01:28everyone and the kids are the the
1:01:31biggest victims and not being able to
1:01:33have that tight relationship with an
1:01:36incarcerated person because their
1:01:37visiting time with them is limited their
1:01:40ability just to get a hug or just to
1:01:41talk to Mom after they've had a bad day
1:01:43you know that those kids didn't do
1:01:45anything wrong and I we need to find a
1:01:47way to do better as a society absolutely
1:01:51so many facilities have kiosks now and
1:01:56iPads so that you can do video visits I
1:01:59don't think most people realize they're
1:02:01charging for those video visits and
1:02:03they're expensive they are very
1:02:05expensive and so to give somebody a year
1:02:08worth of video visits so they could see
1:02:10their
1:02:12kids that would change those kids' life
1:02:15because they're not the ones
1:02:16incarcerated their parent
1:02:18is I don't forget where I've been so
1:02:22I've worked on legislation to help
1:02:24because in IND indana if you were
1:02:26sentenced to over 24 months your
1:02:29parental rights were automatically
1:02:31terminated so that was one of the first
1:02:33things we stepped in to do we also
1:02:35worked with a local church to do a
1:02:37re-entry support group because what they
1:02:41give them as re-entry packets are not
1:02:43places that you can find a place to live
1:02:47um get help with Transportation or a job
1:02:50everything was outdated they say we're
1:02:52spending all this money on re-entry I
1:02:55can't tell because those people were
1:02:57coming out and they had nowhere to go so
1:02:59a bunch of us that were incarcerated
1:03:01together got together and said we're
1:03:02going to tell them this is where you go
1:03:04this is where you get help this is who
1:03:06you can call for
1:03:07support and it's lifechanging because
1:03:11after being in there I know that there
1:03:13are a number of people that are there
1:03:15for substance abuse issues mental health
1:03:18issues or just because they made a
1:03:21mistake they were trying to take care of
1:03:22their family mhm it changes your eyes
1:03:26when you're in that situation and you
1:03:28brought up mental health what sort of
1:03:30Mental Health Services were available to
1:03:32you in prison they medicate you and they
1:03:36have state therapists that come in and
1:03:39talk to you you might get a good one and
1:03:41they might do something you know talk
1:03:45therapy tell you you know books to read
1:03:48ways that you can really you know kind
1:03:50of Center yourself and get out of your
1:03:52head but for the most part you get
1:03:55medicated and they want you just kind of
1:03:57shuffling along you know I feel like um
1:04:01in a lot of the cases that I've looked
1:04:04at
1:04:05that there are a lot of cases of people
1:04:08in prisons
1:04:11because they grew up in situations that
1:04:14were abusive or neglectful and they
1:04:16didn't get the opportunity to develop
1:04:18those coping mechanisms and strong
1:04:20mental health skills and so did you see
1:04:23that there was like classes available or
1:04:25opportunities in prison where they were
1:04:27helping um people develop those coping
1:04:30skills and develop those um mechanisms
1:04:33or is that something that is a need
1:04:35still to be filled the first part of my
1:04:37prison sentence was very much like that
1:04:40we had a woman superintendent and so
1:04:42Dana blank you know she wanted us to
1:04:46have every tool we possibly could
1:04:48because she knew we were going to go out
1:04:50and we were going to have to be
1:04:52productive members of our community of
1:04:54society and so we had education my
1:04:57associates and bachelor's degree is from
1:04:59Ball State University you know we had
1:05:02vocational program in there I'm a
1:05:03licensed cosmetologist you know I've
1:05:06trained service dogs for disabled kids
1:05:09anything she could do to really educate
1:05:13us or help us we had yoga in there we
1:05:16had journaling with counselors that
1:05:18wanted to come in and volunteer we had
1:05:21parenting classes from outside
1:05:23volunteers she had community programs
1:05:26with us and so we would meet members of
1:05:29the community and talk about how much
1:05:31support is needed for parents and
1:05:33children and what they can do to get
1:05:35involved I mean she was very much you
1:05:38know this is supposed to be
1:05:41Rehabilitation it was probably year
1:05:44seven that Administration pushed her out
1:05:48everybody has put into you know
1:05:50identical uniforms and they started
1:05:53systematically picking off the education
1:05:56opportunities that were in there so now
1:05:58there is no College
1:06:01Programs the parenting program is
1:06:03whatever the state puts
1:06:05on all of those extra classes and
1:06:08volunteers have been pushed out so now
1:06:11it's just a normal
1:06:13prison somehow I feel like we've lost
1:06:17the basis of prisons because it was
1:06:19always supposed to be about
1:06:21Rehabilitation it was and one of the
1:06:24things that I actually got it from a
1:06:26book a fiction book but it it res it
1:06:28really um resonated with me and the
1:06:31author was formerly incarcerated he
1:06:35actually escaped prison but that's
1:06:36another story
1:06:38um oops um anyway he noted that you know
1:06:44when we punish children they respond
1:06:47because we have a relationship with them
1:06:49and they love us and we love them right
1:06:51and they're safe with us even though
1:06:53they know that we're punishing them for
1:06:55something something that they've done
1:06:56wrong or we're correcting them that we
1:06:58still love them and we're we're there to
1:07:00protect them and look out for them when
1:07:02we put people in prison there's no love
1:07:05there there's no respect there's no
1:07:07Mutual relationship and so it turns from
1:07:11correction into torture almost um
1:07:14because punishment without love is is
1:07:18not useful it people don't respond to it
1:07:22our psyches aren't trained to care about
1:07:25whether or not we let down somebody that
1:07:27doesn't have any respect or care for us
1:07:28and that we don't have any respect or
1:07:30care for and so you know the book really
1:07:32challenged people to think about
1:07:34incarceration differently and to think
1:07:36about it as you know correction needs to
1:07:40be done by people that love each other
1:07:42and we're in communities where we've
1:07:45just become more and more and more
1:07:46isolated from people where we don't have
1:07:48a community system where we don't have
1:07:51people that have networks that they are
1:07:54locked into that help
1:07:56guide people when they're when they're
1:07:58going astray people that love them to
1:08:01help bring them back to the right path
1:08:03and and that's something that's really
1:08:05missing right now and and I I just think
1:08:07our prison system has Lo like you said
1:08:09lost sight of the fact that we're
1:08:10supposed to be rehabilitating people and
1:08:13if we're not building relationships and
1:08:15building strong foundations for people
1:08:18to reintegrate into society then we're
1:08:22just making them into slaves where
1:08:24they're just doing work and not getting
1:08:27paid fairly for it and not being
1:08:29prepared to re-enter society and it it's
1:08:33really tragic I always come back to this
1:08:36saying that I heard while I was in
1:08:39prison and it was you breed what you
1:08:43feed so we have warehouses full of
1:08:47people that we are not giving education
1:08:51to we are not training we are not even
1:08:55treating them as well as I treat my
1:08:58dogs and I think I tell everyone yes my
1:09:02dogs are
1:09:03spoiled however I treat them the way
1:09:07that I want to be treated the way I
1:09:08think everybody should be treated and so
1:09:11if we're doing less than it's no wonder
1:09:15people get out and they go right back in
1:09:17we give them no opportunity to better
1:09:19themselves we don't give them what they
1:09:20need when they come home and so it's
1:09:23just this revolving door for some people
1:09:26and it doesn't have to be that way
1:09:29you're so right um I have taken up more
1:09:32than an hour of your time and I want to
1:09:35thank you so much for talking to me
1:09:36because I have so enjoyed this
1:09:39conversation with you and I really do
1:09:41think that um so many of our listeners
1:09:43reached out to me after listening to
1:09:45your story and they were like you know
1:09:48what I hear about these wrongful
1:09:49conviction cases but I don't know what I
1:09:51can do to help and so you gave us the
1:09:55name of some organizations that help
1:09:56with reintegration and then also like
1:09:59you said every area has an Innocence
1:10:01Project and they need volunteers and
1:10:02they need
1:10:03funding um is there anything else that
1:10:06you want our listeners to know before we
1:10:08wrap up absolutely I would tell them
1:10:11that there are very simple things you
1:10:14can do to get involved and make a
1:10:16difference within our justice system I
1:10:18tell everybody vote that is not just for
1:10:21when we have a big presidential election
1:10:24that is for your local people because if
1:10:28they're you know out there talking about
1:10:30Criminal Justice Reform ask them what
1:10:32that truly means to them see if they
1:10:35have you know the facts to back it up
1:10:37what they're going to do and always
1:10:40think outside the box I am very proud I
1:10:44work with the Illinois Innocence Project
1:10:47and so I coordinate a speaker's Bureau
1:10:50for the wrongful conviction awareness
1:10:53and avoidance training and so with that
1:10:56training we are going it's state
1:10:59mandated in Illinois we go into every
1:11:03police academy and present on wrongful
1:11:06convictions how they can be aware of the
1:11:09contributing factors and how they can
1:11:11avoid it with each one of those
1:11:13trainings they hear from an attorney a
1:11:17retired police officer and two exonorees
1:11:21on how things went wrong in the system
1:11:25and so I feel like there are ways that
1:11:27we can start having conversations on how
1:11:30we can turn the system around you just
1:11:33have to be looking for opportunities
1:11:35that we can step in and have those
1:11:37moments so I would encourage everybody
1:11:39to get involved and see what you can do
1:11:42so you mentioned that this is required
1:11:44training in Illinois yes is this is this
1:11:49commonly required training across all
1:11:50the states no Illinois is the only one
1:11:54that has ever done it
1:11:56and so when it first started um probably
1:11:58about six or seven years ago I was one
1:12:01of um the first asked to go in and do
1:12:03this training and it was in one police
1:12:07training institute and so I went in and
1:12:11it was it was traumatic but um at the
1:12:15same time I didn't want them to beat me
1:12:19you know I didn't want them to have
1:12:21power over me so I went in and I shared
1:12:23the story
1:12:25and they asked me if I would come back
1:12:27and I was like yes I'll come back again
1:12:30so that director of that police training
1:12:32institute was told that he could not
1:12:34have a wrongful conviction class in
1:12:36there that just didn't look good to the
1:12:38training and Standards Board so he
1:12:41continued to have the class and changed
1:12:43it to guest
1:12:44speaker and we still come in and talked
1:12:48about wrongful convictions and how they
1:12:50can go the wrong
1:12:51way and um as I shared my story realized
1:12:55you know what I'm not just changing them
1:12:58they're changing me I'm receiving some
1:13:01healing from this I'm recognizing that
1:13:03there are good people out there that are
1:13:05trying to do a really great job in you
1:13:08know a field that they get a lot of
1:13:12criticism and so I kept doing it and
1:13:15then um in 2023 it was mandated by the
1:13:21training and Standards Board that it
1:13:22would be taught in every Academy
1:13:25and so we put together the speakers
1:13:27Bureau and I have exonorees from all
1:13:29over the country that fly in there in
1:13:31Illinois to train the police
1:13:34Cadets I think that is amazing and I
1:13:36think we should all be pushing to have
1:13:38the same type of training in every
1:13:40single police force across the country
1:13:43um because obviously it's important
1:13:46because if it wasn't your case would
1:13:47have never happened the way it did
1:13:50absolutely and I think that was one of
1:13:52the reasons that I I went into this and
1:13:55said yes I'll go do it initially because
1:13:58one of my police officers came up to me
1:14:00afterwards and said I wish I would have
1:14:03asked more questions he said I knew that
1:14:07you weren't right he said I had
1:14:10statements witness statements that said
1:14:13you were acting erratically and not
1:14:15really
1:14:16yourself he said so I wish that I would
1:14:19have asked more questions and pushed for
1:14:21you to be tested for carbon monoxide for
1:14:23us to really look at that
1:14:26and he said it just he said it didn't
1:14:28occur to me and I said I appreciate that
1:14:31you know that's how we have these open
1:14:33conversations that's what the way we
1:14:35look for ways we can change it in the
1:14:37future and make it different for the
1:14:39next person okay I do have two more
1:14:42questions that came from my 8-year-old
1:14:44daughter okay she wants to know first
1:14:47what was your favorite job while you
1:14:49were
1:14:51incarcerated favorite job was definitely
1:14:54train in service dogs so we worked for I
1:14:58can and um I got my first puppy and so I
1:15:03took my puppy all the way through the
1:15:04training and Martha was a joy to have
1:15:09but she loves squirrels so she was never
1:15:12going to be a full service you know
1:15:15service dog that just wasn't going to
1:15:17happen because she we couldn't tie her
1:15:19to a wheelchair and let a squirrel go by
1:15:22so she ended up going to an elementary
1:15:25school and she worked with young kids
1:15:28they could read to Martha and you know
1:15:30Martha's not going to tell them you got
1:15:32that word wrong or you stuttered when
1:15:34you said that and so she brought a lot
1:15:36of Joy there after we did the the first
1:15:40puppy then we started working on more
1:15:42intensive training so we were actually
1:15:44the graduation program so we would get a
1:15:48dog evaluate them make sure they knew
1:15:51all their commands and then we would
1:15:53start meeting with the families that
1:15:54were going to pair them and so we would
1:15:58get to you know name some items that the
1:16:01dog could go retrieve for the child or
1:16:04teach them how to get up in a hospital
1:16:05bed with them or how to retrieve items
1:16:08to a wheelchair open doors brace and
1:16:13then we would have a two-e training
1:16:15program so those families would come in
1:16:17with their kids and we would get to
1:16:18teach them how to use their
1:16:21dog and it was so incredible to see
1:16:25these kids take these animals and gain
1:16:29independence and feel confident you know
1:16:32I've got my dog with me everything's
1:16:33going to be
1:16:34okay and so it changed my life in ways I
1:16:38just I never expected and I stay in
1:16:41touch with a few of the moms whose dogs
1:16:44I trained for their kids um my my
1:16:47favorite one is Michael and Michael is
1:16:52nonverbal and so I
1:16:55I think when you hear that you think oh
1:16:58there's going to be no
1:17:00communication never ever think that he
1:17:04communicates in so many ways and I would
1:17:08have him laughing so hard because I'm
1:17:10out there trying to talk to him get some
1:17:12kind of reaction nothing out comes the
1:17:14dog and he
1:17:16goes and smiles great big and I was like
1:17:19oh you faker you are holding back on me
1:17:22you need to be communicating with me and
1:17:24he he started laughing he was shaking so
1:17:26hard and his mom said thank you for just
1:17:30talking to him like he's normal and I
1:17:32said he is normal he is and so I think
1:17:35that was the moment that I realized I
1:17:37was able to do something and give back
1:17:40at the same
1:17:41time wow I had no idea that you got to
1:17:44train dogs in prison and that's that's
1:17:47amazing so I know you have dogs now and
1:17:49the other thing my daughter would like
1:17:51to know is what are your dogs names so I
1:17:53have two Siberian in huskys my little
1:17:56girl is all white with blue eyes and her
1:17:59name is Piper and my boy is red and
1:18:02white with blue eyes and his name is
1:18:05Paxton and I will email you a picture
1:18:08because both of them are passed
1:18:10out I wish mine was passed
1:18:13out I don't have a husky we have a uh a
1:18:17red tick [ __ ] hound and so when you say
1:18:19that he really likes squirrels that's my
1:18:22that's my life right now if if we have a
1:18:25homestead so we have a lot of land so
1:18:27it's not fenced in so he's on a geoc
1:18:29collar that is supposed to correct him
1:18:31when he gets to the edge of the boundary
1:18:34but there have been times when deer or
1:18:36squirrels are too appealing to heed the
1:18:39warnings of the collar and then I get to
1:18:40go running up the side of a mountain to
1:18:42try to encourage him to come home that's
1:18:45awesome so yeah he could probably use
1:18:49some training I am not the best dog
1:18:50trainer I will tell you that right
1:18:52now well I can tell you that everything
1:18:55I learned for training dogs has not
1:18:58applied to my babies when I come in I
1:19:01want them to jump up and greet me and
1:19:03talk to me and give me kisses and
1:19:05everything that a service dog can't
1:19:08do but yeah they are just they're pets
1:19:12it's their house too so some of that
1:19:15training's went by the wayside but I've
1:19:17had opportunities to use it because you
1:19:19can volunteer with a local shelter and
1:19:22you know if you have a week-long break
1:19:24get a dog if you can get it walking on a
1:19:27leash or get it potty broke or you know
1:19:30some of the basic principles it's easier
1:19:33for that animal to be adopted that is
1:19:35true that is true
1:19:38absolutely well I don't want to take up
1:19:40your whole day I could talk to you all
1:19:42day because um obviously as a fire
1:19:44protection engineer your case is
1:19:46fascinating to me from a scientific
1:19:48standpoint it's fascinating to me from a
1:19:50legal standpoint and it's fascinating to
1:19:52me from just a human standpoint
1:19:55as a mom as as a woman as somebody who
1:20:00once thought that I could always trust
1:20:02the police and to have that um to have
1:20:06that insight to know that uh I was
1:20:09listening to a lawyer talk the other day
1:20:11and she said it doesn't matter if you
1:20:14didn't do anything wrong it doesn't
1:20:15matter you have to have a lawyer with
1:20:17you and you talk to the police because
1:20:18the police job is not to prove you're
1:20:21innocent that's your lawyer's job and a
1:20:24lot of times the goal of the police is
1:20:26directly in violation of that goal that
1:20:29your lawyer has and it's really sad to
1:20:31me that we live in a society where that
1:20:33is the case but um if there's anything
1:20:35that I personally want people to take
1:20:37away from this it is to be cautious you
1:20:41can't always trust everybody and it's
1:20:44sad that we have to say that but any
1:20:46final closing thoughts from you on that
1:20:48just that I completely agree with you
1:20:50don't go in there and think that you can
1:20:53navigate it by yourself yourself get
1:20:55somebody in there to protect you protect
1:20:57your rights obviously I thank you for
1:21:00the opportunity to talk with you I was
1:21:03blown away when I was listening and it
1:21:05said Christine Bunch if you are
1:21:07listening I am trying to reach out to
1:21:09you and I was like has
1:21:11she so um it meant so much to me just
1:21:15that somebody would reach out and say
1:21:17Hey you know I want to hear from your
1:21:18perspective and so I love that and I'm
1:21:22incredibly honored I would also if you
1:21:26take requests really like you to do a
1:21:29podcast on Todd Willingham we did did
1:21:34you he okay so when I first first when I
1:21:37first started the podcast um my co-host
1:21:40was my friend Jenny and we did 10
1:21:42episodes before we took a Hiatus for
1:21:45almost 2 years and then that during that
1:21:47time Jenny told me that she wasn't going
1:21:49to be able to continue um she's a single
1:21:51mom these podcasts are a lot more work
1:21:54than I even anticipated starting um yes
1:21:57and so I spent that time that we were
1:22:00gone really thinking about what I wanted
1:22:01the podcast to be and I didn't want it
1:22:03to be the kind of thing where we could
1:22:04just you could get the information that
1:22:06we're giving you from a Google search I
1:22:08wanted to bring something to the table
1:22:09that you're not going to get um easily
1:22:12somewhere else and so I knew that I
1:22:13could really dive into the science um
1:22:16but when I was doing it with Jenny our
1:22:19sec I think it's our second and third
1:22:20episode are on uh Cameron Todd
1:22:23Willingham and I would like to revisit
1:22:25that case now that there's a steep
1:22:28learning curve to
1:22:30podcasting there's also a learning curve
1:22:32to
1:22:32researching and there's also a learning
1:22:34curve to being able to put together a
1:22:37narrative in a way that is compelling so
1:22:41I do expect that in the future I'll
1:22:43revisit that case again and look at it
1:22:45more from the scientific aspects of it
1:22:48um but that case I still lay in bed at
1:22:50night and think about that case um it
1:22:53was a tough one and it was one that
1:22:55Jenny researched um and I and Jenny is
1:22:58not a fire expert she is just an
1:23:01armchair detective that really likes
1:23:03True Crime podcasts um I think she did a
1:23:05really good job with the research on it
1:23:08I had not heard of the case before she
1:23:09presented it so I wasn't really prepared
1:23:11to dig into a lot of the scientific
1:23:14things that came up in the case so
1:23:15that's sort of why I would like to
1:23:16revisit it in the future but it is it is
1:23:20such such a horrifically tragic case and
1:23:23it um
1:23:25anyone that hasn't listened to it yet I
1:23:26encourage you to listen to it I think
1:23:28Jenny did a really good job researching
1:23:29it and in the future I will revisit it
1:23:32more from the scientific aspects of it I
1:23:35tell people they always ask why do you
1:23:38go speak why do you continue to do this
1:23:40why do you continue to relive it and I
1:23:43always tell him Cameron Todd Willingham
1:23:46he can't speak I can and we're going to
1:23:50make sure we don't ever do that again
1:23:52because that could have just as easily
1:23:54have been me it could have it could have
1:23:58so it touches me but I'm going to I've
1:24:01got a lot of ideas and I'm going to send
1:24:05some names your way William Canard is
1:24:08not just in my case there are other
1:24:11wrongful conviction cases that he's been
1:24:14named
1:24:14in I will definitely be looking forward
1:24:18to that information because yeah I mean
1:24:21especially if there's still people whose
1:24:22cases are ongoing that
1:24:24um have not have not had their Fair Day
1:24:27in court or or been treated fairly by
1:24:29the system I definitely want the
1:24:31opportunity to help bring awareness to
1:24:33those cases and possibly help them push
1:24:35for postc conviction relief or new
1:24:37trials or whatever is is
1:24:40Justified awesome thank you so much
1:24:44thank you this is fun all right well
1:24:47thank you so much I'm going to let you
1:24:48get back to your weekend and your
1:24:49puppies and um from the bottom of my
1:24:52heart thank you oh thank you I've
1:24:54enjoyed it I have too
1:25:02[Music]

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