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33 Brutal Truths To Stop Wasting Your Potential - Alex Hormozi — Transcript

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0:00Welcome back, man. Another speed running
0:02podcasting booty call. [laughter]
0:05That's the hope. Do more hard things
0:08every day is a great mantra, but it
0:10should be less about ice baths and more
0:12about making that decision you've been
0:14putting off for 3 months.
0:17[sighs and gasps]
0:18Yeah. Um, I think that there's been a
0:22big misconception around hard stuff,
0:24which is just that, um, like running a
0:27marathon necessarily means that you can
0:28have a hard conversation with your wife
0:30um, by saying like, I do hard things.
0:32Um, but those hard things don't
0:34necessarily generalize. And so I think
0:36domain specificity is much more uh
0:38narrow unless you decide to generalize
0:41to an identity label of like I am the
0:42type of person who can do hard things
0:44because I ran this marathon or because I
0:45do these ice baths and then as a result
0:47I can then generalize that label to
0:48other behaviors. Um but if you can make
0:51that label and identify with it then you
0:52don't need to run the marathon in order
0:54to do the hard thing. You just need the
0:55label. What are the hard things that
0:58people should be focusing on more? What
1:00what are the step change function hard
1:02thing capacity skills that people should
1:04focus on more?
1:08I think it's being cognizant of what
1:13what other what outside forces are
1:16influencing your behavior in a way that
1:18is aversive or against your goals. And
1:22so if you're like, I want to start a
1:24business, but I am afraid of what other
1:27people will say, then it means that we
1:29are allowing those other people to
1:30control your behavior. And I think when
1:32you say it in really plain terms like
1:33that, you're like, "Wow, I didn't know I
1:34was giving them that much power over my
1:35life." It's like, I am not doing this
1:37because of them, which means they
1:38control me. And to me, like the hard
1:42thing is in some ways just not allowing
1:44that control to persist or to keep
1:46going. M it is interesting how many
1:49people can do hard things physically but
1:51can't do hard things decisively.
1:53>> I have so I have you know our security
1:55team and whatnot and this is a
1:56discussion that I've had with probably
1:58each of them at different times cuz
1:59we've seen combat and death and all that
2:00kind of stuff. Um, and what's funny is
2:03that like the amount of risk that they
2:06are willing to put their physical bodies
2:08in, like literally their lives at stake,
2:09but then how that doesn't necessarily
2:11translate to being able to have a like
2:13call it vulnerable conversation with a
2:16wife, spouse, lover, etc. Um, is just
2:19interesting. And this is again back to
2:20like these things don't generalize. They
2:23look good, but they do not mean the same
2:25thing.
2:27It's weird that we
2:29publicly admire the obvious hard thing,
2:33even if that isn't the one that actually
2:35makes the biggest difference to people's
2:37life direction. It's not predictive of
2:38being a good friend. It's not predictive
2:40of being the best partner. It's not
2:42predictive of being a successful
2:43business owner, but because it's more
2:47obvious, because it's more publicly
2:50laudable, uh, you can flex it online and
2:52you can tell people, "I ran a marathon
2:54as opposed to
2:55>> when my partner asked me a difficult
2:57question, I didn't shy away from it. I
2:58told them the truth."
3:00>> And to be clear, I think that those
3:01things are laudable in and of
3:02themselves. Like, you go fight a war,
3:04you go do like you go run a marathon. I
3:06think all of those things are are
3:07praiseworthy. It's just the
3:09generalizable
3:11component of that hard being, oh, I can
3:13do all hard things, is really the the
3:15misconception. But I do think that if
3:16you if for whatever reason you tell
3:18yourself a narrative that you because
3:19because you did this hard thing, you can
3:20do all hard things, then that's amazing.
3:22And
3:23>> by all means, if someone's like, I
3:24started doing jiu-jitsu and it
3:25completely changed my life, it's like
3:26that's awesome. But it probably isn't
3:28because you learned how to do guard
3:29better. Uh it's probably because like
3:32what guard what learning to do guard
3:33meant for you changed these other series
3:35of behaviors down the line. How
3:37correlative do you think it is people
3:39that do hard things physically versus
3:42people who develop the capacity to do
3:44hard things that matter?
3:46>> Can you re say that again?
3:47>> Let's say that doing hard things
3:49electively versus doing hard things
3:51decisively. The big difference between
3:53the two to me seems to be decisions that
3:55require emotion
3:56>> and decisions that require effort.
3:58>> That seems to be one of the big
4:00delineations here.
4:02>> So, so it's like the call it hard
4:04conversation versus hard physical task.
4:06Yeah. And how many people who develop
4:07the skill to do hard physical tasks as a
4:09transformation, how many of those do you
4:11think carry over into being able to do
4:13the hard thing emotionally?
4:14>> Probably the same in the opposite
4:15direction. The guys who are like can
4:18have quote hard conversations with the
4:20attorney who can get through all these
4:21complex ideas and have whatever then
4:24sucks on at jiu-jitsu or sucks at in the
4:27weight room or doesn't try hard. I think
4:29um I just think that skills are more
4:31specific unless you generalize them.
4:33>> How do you generalize? I think it's it's
4:35it's creating labels on identity with
4:37personality. And so if we if we if we
4:39[clears throat] ident if we define
4:40personality by um the aggregate of how
4:43you behave in all conditions, right? So
4:46all these conditions, how you act is
4:48your personality. The label we ascribe
4:51to that personality would then be the
4:53identity.
4:54>> And so if we decide to change that
4:56label, then that label, this is getting
4:58a little technical, but basically
4:59becomes a global reinforcer for your
5:00behavior. Like I am this, I am honest.
5:04And so we make this label and then
5:05honest has a lot of subbehaviors
5:08underneath of it that we then act
5:09because we believe that honest is good.
5:11And so we want to act in accordance with
5:13this global reinforcer for ourselves.
5:14And so when we enter a new situation we
5:16think okay what is in alignment? What
5:18behavior is most aligned with this label
5:21and then we do that and then when we
5:22don't do when we don't act that way then
5:25we feel guilty because we broke our own
5:26rules of behavior. So the big lesson
5:29here is just because you're doing hard
5:31things in one domain does not mean that
5:33it crosses over into all domains unless
5:35you purposefully try to make your
5:37identity wrapped up around it.
5:39>> A thousand%. I said when when I um I
5:42remember when I went to college my uh I
5:45I wanted to pledge a fraternity and it
5:47was in the SEC and they're known for for
5:50hazing and whatnot. And so I I called my
5:52dad and I was like, "Hey, this might be
5:53like bad. I might have to go through
5:55some stuff that's hard. I don't know.
5:58And you know one my dad's given me a lot
6:00of lasting gifts but one of them he said
6:02think about every hard thing that you've
6:04gone through up until this point. He's
6:05like there is nothing that they can do
6:07to you that is worse than that.
6:10And that actually was incredibly
6:12empowering. And I I remember when there
6:13were more hardships that were going on I
6:15just immediately went to the worst
6:16things that I had gone through and I was
6:17like oh my god this is nothing. So, I
6:19was able to like go through this
6:21relatively hard thing where there were
6:22people who were like cracking and crying
6:23and all this stuff. Like I want to say
6:25grown men, but I would say adult boys.
6:27Uh [laughter]
6:28next to me. Um and I was able to stand
6:31tall cuz it was just like there's
6:32nothing that these other 21-year-old
6:34guys can do to me that has I have not
6:35suffered through.
6:36>> It's a good justification for doing hard
6:38things. That Rogan's got this line, the
6:41worst thing that's ever happened to you
6:42is the worst thing that's ever happened
6:43to you.
6:43>> Yeah.
6:44>> And if the worst thing that's ever
6:45happened to you is somebody misspelling
6:46your name on a Starbucks cup.
6:48>> Yeah. That's a big deal.
6:49>> But if the worst thing that's ever
6:50happened to you is a thousand times
6:52worse than that, I think one problem we
6:55have is recency bias that if you haven't
6:57been through a tough time right now,
6:59your memory of being able to deal with
7:02hard things, you kind of get velvet
7:04prison syndrome
7:05>> and uh sometimes you can forget. You're
7:07like, I guess chicks would say I'm still
7:10that [ __ ] of I'm, you know, like I'm
7:12I've still got that capacity. Uh
7:14sometimes we forget.
7:16>> Yeah. Yeah, I think one of the strongest
7:17frames that has gotten me through those
7:19harder times is that this is the story I
7:20will one day tell. And so it just like
7:23almost the more bad things that happen,
7:25it's like the more epic the story
7:26becomes. And so I mean, and the main
7:28beneficiary of the stories that we tell
7:30is ourselves because we're the we're the
7:31the giver and the receiver of most of
7:33the stories by by percentage of stories
7:35told. We are we [clears throat] are the
7:36biggest receiver of the stories. And so
7:38I think that's that's actually been I
7:39think just such a powerful frame for
7:40like of course this this terrible thing
7:43will happen and like doesn't that make
7:44the story so much better?
7:45>> Yeah. What's cool is I think when you
7:48say we're talking a narrative, story,
7:50personification, arc, hero's journey, it
7:52all sounds kind of wishful in a way,
7:56mythological, irrational,
7:58uh, symbolic, but that's the way that
8:02humans brains work. like we work in
8:06story and even if it's
8:10not strictly the way that the
8:12neuroscience behind how the medial
8:16prefrontal lateral cortex works in order
8:18to make us a tougher person. If you are
8:21the kind of person that tells yourself
8:22the story that you're the kind of person
8:23that can get through this, that is
8:25functionally exactly what you're
8:27chasing. Like what you're after is the
8:30story. And by putting that on the front
8:33end and going, "Okay, I'm just going to
8:35keep on building stories that I'm going
8:36to refer back to in future." I think
8:38you're actually being more direct than
8:39if you were trying to
8:41take a more rational view of exactly how
8:44behavior is put together. Like the story
8:45is the rational view of how your
8:46behavior and your identity are put
8:48together.
8:53There's a lot there. Um I think like
8:56with the neuroscience and the and the
8:57brain labeling and all that stuff, I
8:58have no idea. So that's that's above my
9:00pay grade. Um, but yeah, I just think
9:03about all of our all of our behavior is
9:05just in aggregate. We do what we've been
9:07rewarded for doing and it doesn't mean
9:08we get a cookie. It could also mean a
9:09bad thing goes away. There's there a lot
9:11of different types of reward. Um, and so
9:14if we remember a story, um, so like
9:17let's say you have that story of you
9:19went through this hard thing and then
9:20you survived, then it basically serves
9:23as a reminder of the reinforcer of the
9:25behaviors you did to get through it. And
9:28so it's almost like um with a kid who's
9:31smaller, if you're like, "Hey, remember
9:32last time you did this? You got ice
9:33cream." Um if you remind them of that
9:35reward, then they're more likely to
9:37repeat the behavior. And so I think we
9:38basically use that narrative as a
9:40reminder to in the short term increase
9:43the relative value of a reinforcer. And
9:45so if we think about like what is
9:46motivation in general, that's
9:47functionally what you're doing if you
9:48motivate someone. Like if you sell
9:50someone something for the short term,
9:52you increase the relative value of a
9:54specific reinforcer. didn't wake up uh
9:56wanting to buy cologne, but you see an
9:59ad and for the short period of time that
10:01the ad goes on, it increases the
10:03relative value of smelling good. Uh and
10:05so as a result, it changes your behavior
10:07and then you buy. And so I think stories
10:09function that same way where we use them
10:11to motivate ourselves in the short term
10:13to do the desired behavior that might be
10:15less comfortable in the short term, but
10:17we're reminded about the larger
10:19reinforcing event that we had in the
10:20past. How many people do you think are
10:22doing hard things publicly in order to
10:25not need to face the lack of capacity
10:28they have to do hard things privately?
10:31>> I don't know them. So I don't know to be
10:33honest with you. That's my honest
10:35answer. I don't know. I think some
10:37people really do hard things and it's
10:38what they capture online is a fraction
10:40of what they really do. And I think
10:41there are people who 100% of the hard
10:43things they do are online and they're
10:44not even that hard% of the hard things
10:46they do.
10:46>> Yeah. And they're not even that hard
10:47because they've got a squad of people
10:48behind them. Like I always I I can think
10:50there was a meme around this for a
10:51moment that was like but you had a
10:53camera there. [laughter]
10:56It's like girl collapses because of
10:58crazy news or something like that. It's
11:00like but you had a camera there. And so
11:02you so there's just this this you know
11:04this element of you know
11:05>> mistrust performative nature.
11:07>> Yeah.
11:08>> Yeah.
11:08>> The three-step process of how to win.
11:11>> Number one realize no one is coming to
11:13save you. Number two take responsibility
11:16for your current position. Number three,
11:18be willing to sacrifice who you are for
11:21who you want to be.
11:26[gasps] I think that those three is
11:28really all about power. Um, and the
11:32realization so the probably in sequence
11:34probably the first one should come
11:35first, which is you own everything. It's
11:38like, okay, if I own everything, then
11:40you can still hope that someone saves
11:41you, but it still relies on someone else
11:43to change your condition. And so it's
11:45like, okay, I own all these outcomes. Um
11:48I'm not going to rely on someone else to
11:49change my condition. But you're still
11:51there, which means you have to take the
11:52third step, which is that I have to
11:53sacrifice. They have to give up um
11:55something in order to get something
11:56else. And I think I think where people
11:58actually stay stuck the longest in their
12:00careers from an entrepreneurship
12:01perspective or just from a personal
12:03development perspective is um the trades
12:06that we are unwilling to make is
12:07basically the desire to have everything
12:09at the same time. And and the easiest
12:13analogy I have is like
12:15it is totally reasonable to want to have
12:17a mountain view and be on the beach and
12:20be walking distance from a Whole Foods.
12:22Um
12:24but you probably will not find a place
12:26that has all three of those because they
12:29are all at apparent contradictions
12:31or you know apparent odds. And so there
12:35but so so what happens is we just stay
12:37in this paralysis of indecision because
12:40we feel like all paths are settling and
12:43I think there's this
12:44>> movement or narrative around like never
12:46settle and things like that but people
12:48mistake never settle for never make
12:50trades and so we have this obsession
12:52with optionality or optionality maxing
12:55but options are only valuable when taken
12:58and so when we never take the option
13:01which means we don't cash in the option
13:03that we have available. Um like some
13:05options need to be taken and when they
13:07are taken other options disappear
13:10>> because just having maximum potential
13:12does not mean maximum reality because
13:14you need to commit.
13:14>> You have to commit which is the
13:16elimination of alternatives.
13:17>> And so like there I mean show me
13:19anything that was worth doing that did
13:21not require commitment which is an
13:22elimination of alternatives a trade-off.
13:24Um, and so in the beginning of our lives
13:27when we're younger, we are we are
13:30praised for maximizing our potential,
13:32right? How can we have as many colleges
13:34accept us? How can we have all the best
13:37grades? How can we have all the paths in
13:39front of us? But I think many people
13:40know people who are really successful
13:42earlier on by for maximizing potential
13:44but not realizing potential. And I think
13:47the gap between the maximization of
13:49potential and the realization of
13:51potential is the commitments that we're
13:52willing to make, which is the trades,
13:53the elimination of the alternatives when
13:55we have to start cashing those options
13:56in and realizing that some of them are
13:57are never going to come to fruition
13:59because we could only have one life and
14:01some of those trades are permanent.
14:02>> You can only not have a kid until you
14:05have a kid and then at that point you
14:06have, right? There's no going back,
14:08right? Um, you know, some decisions in
14:10life don't have refunds. Um, and and I I
14:15I think I think that is what I would say
14:17maybe in the earlier part of my my
14:19career, especially single guys, cuz I
14:21think a lot of that's like really
14:22prevalent in social media right now. Um,
14:24is just options maxing.
14:26>> Um, but we just even even in the attempt
14:29to options max, you still close off
14:32other options, which is that like you
14:34will not have the benefits of let's say
14:37a committed marriage
14:38>> early on because you've kept your
14:39options open,
14:40>> right? And like you will not have the
14:41benefits of like a very large business
14:44if you try to pursue five
14:46>> or don't pursue any because you want to
14:47not make commitments. And so I think
14:50that commitment is actually a really
14:52strong signal for maturation and growing
14:54up.
14:55>> Lots of mistakes were made by standing
14:56still. Like people think that in action
14:59isn't a decision but it is.
15:01>> Totally. I mean your conditions change
15:03through in action still like doors
15:05close. uh there are moments where you
15:07have opportunities where you have to act
15:09or they will go away. Um and so I think
15:11it's like being able to seize those
15:13opportunities and that means that you
15:14have to
15:16>> actively say no to something that you
15:18might want or might want a lot. And I
15:20think those are the trades that we I
15:22think I think being willing to make
15:23those trade-offs clearly and trade them
15:24for the things that you want more um is
15:28how people can progress through life and
15:29and get more of what they want.
15:31>> The pain of having to accept trade-offs
15:33holds a lot of people back
15:34>> 100%. and then they end up getting
15:36nothing. And I think that I honestly
15:38think that is like at the crux of why so
15:40many people are not realizing any
15:41potential at all. Um is because they are
15:44unwilling to make any trade and then
15:45make the biggest trade of all.
15:48>> How do you think about overcoming that
15:50decision paralysis? Lots of good options
15:53in front of you. Spent a lot of time
15:55trying to maximize surface area of of
15:57available options. And it's insane to
16:02say, but it's functionally true for
16:04humans that more options make you more
16:06miserable, not happier.
16:08>> Super true. And also, we probably know
16:09someone, I mean, I can think of people
16:11off the top of my head that didn't have
16:13many options, but the option that they
16:15had was very clear. Like this guy is a
16:17super nerd and just loves coding and it
16:20was very clear straight on. And so there
16:23was a lot of things that weren't
16:24available to him physically. probably
16:26wasn't going to be the sports star,
16:28maybe even in super great shape.
16:30>> But like it was almost like that path
16:31was predetermined. But then when you
16:33fast forward, it's not like they're less
16:34successful. It's that because they just
16:36already knew what they were going to do.
16:38They got to start pulling the future
16:39forward down the one path and start
16:40walking. And so there's again this this
16:43like fetish fetishization of having
16:47options and seeing that as a proxy for
16:49status when the reality is that you
16:50they're all blank checks. You haven't
16:52cashed any of them in.
16:53>> Yeah. And so, um, I think the original
16:56question ladders to like
16:59people get stuck because they don't know
17:00what they want. And I define what you
17:02want by what you're willing to sacrifice
17:04to get something.
17:06Take responsibility for your current
17:07position. What's that mean?
17:10>> Um, it's identifying yourself as source.
17:13And to be clear, it doesn't mean that
17:14like your position in reality is 100%
17:18because of you, but from a so this is a
17:21validity. This is a uh invalid but
17:23useful more useful way of going through
17:25life which is that it absolutely might
17:27not be your fault but it is still your
17:28problem.
17:29>> Mhm.
17:30>> Since you are the only one who you can
17:31influence directly than you are the one
17:33who is source and because like you could
17:35still be correct in saying that like
17:37because I insert grievance insert you
17:40know trauma insert genetic
17:42predisposition insert zip code I was
17:44born in um or language or poverty level
17:47or whatever it is. Um, all of those
17:49things could be true and yet you still
17:51have to take action as the only source
17:53that can change it.
17:54>> Mhm. No one's coming to save you.
17:56>> Yeah. Which goes back to the first one.
17:58>> The interesting thing about no one is
17:59coming to save you also means no one is
18:02coming to stop you.
18:05>> I think some people might [laughter]
18:09I think actually as good as you start I
18:11think the the lobster or crab analogy in
18:13the bucket is in is so true. I actually
18:15think that the the hardest I mean I I
18:18think I mean for me again like the
18:19hardest part of entrepreneurship was the
18:20first set of friends that you have to
18:22relinquish because once you do it the
18:24first time you realize that you will
18:25still survive, you'll still make it
18:26through. You'll find new friends, but
18:27like in the first time it's it's
18:29sacrificing everything you've known and
18:31loved for something that you've never
18:33experienced and hope will happen and
18:35have no idea if it actually will. So the
18:37cost is known, the payoff isn't. And
18:40that is why I think it is the riskiest
18:41and why so many people struggle to make
18:42the job.
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19:41The world will reward you in proportion
19:42to your courage, not your intellect. The
19:45most dangerous person in the world is
19:46the one who continues to show up every
19:48day, even when the rewards are not
19:49guaranteed. Your potential is determined
19:51by the amount of uncertainty you're able
19:53to tolerate and how long you can
19:54tolerate it for. You can beat 99% of
19:57people if you can master the shame of
19:59rejection, the bord of repetition, and
20:02the pain of feedback.
20:04I was asked um if you could transfer
20:07only one trade to your son,
20:10what would it be? Um
20:13and I really thought a lot about it. I
20:14was like all the trades, what would I
20:16tra what I would transfer? And I think
20:18it's courage
20:20because if you don't have courage,
20:23nothing else matters. Like you can't
20:26take the you can't take any action. You
20:27can't do anything worth doing. You can't
20:29stand for anything because you have no
20:32courage. Um,
20:35and so I think that's why it's it's so
20:38much more preferable to be a failure
20:40than a coward. And I think that I would
20:42hope that I could transfer just that
20:44lesson and try and reinforce as many
20:46times as I can in his upbringing that
20:49like you have to you have to take jumps
20:52and you have to lose and you have to be
20:55willing to lose and then realize that
20:57losing doesn't actually make you a loser
21:00because losing is the is the is the
21:02first signal on the path to winning but
21:05like not playing is the actual signal
21:08for for a forever loss. What is courage
21:10to you?
21:17It's a really good question.
21:19I need to define it better. Um,
21:24being willing to take action where
21:29there's a large short-term
21:34cost
21:37with an uncertain
21:41delayed benefit.
21:44So, if you want to start a business and
21:49you think that you're going to get made
21:51fun of or snide remarks or like, "Oh,
21:53yeah, you're doing your podcast thing
21:54again. Oh, yeah. Don't don't don't miss
21:56out, right? You know, don't want to miss
21:58Friday night. It's a big podcast." Um,
22:00you know, you're going to suffer that
22:02short term. That's a known cost. And
22:04then the payoff is delayed and
22:08uncertain. Like not only will it come
22:09later, if it were guaranteed if you knew
22:11you were going to make a million dollars
22:13doing a podcast, then you'd be like
22:14whatever, [ __ ] it. Like it it takes
22:16significantly less courage, but I think
22:18it's the fact that it is unknown and
22:20delayed. So you basically have to be
22:22willing to get kicked in the nuts and
22:25multiple times and sometimes for
22:26extended durations
22:28>> before the hope that you will get
22:30something. But I think the only way to
22:33to to get through that kind of kicked in
22:35the nuts period for however long it's
22:37going to be um is realizing that you
22:41have two paths. One that is guaranteed
22:44which is that the path you're currently
22:45on will not get you where you want to
22:47go. And the other path it is not
22:50guaranteed to get you where you want to
22:51go but it's the only one where you have
22:53a shot where you do. And that's where
22:55your potential is determined by the
22:57amount of uncertainty
22:59you're able to tolerate and how long you
23:00can tolerate it for.
23:01>> And I think that also goes to the bigger
23:02the games we play, right? That like the
23:05longer the game you play, the bigger the
23:06game you play. And so if you want to
23:07create rockets that go to the moon, you
23:09have to be able to deal with uncertainty
23:11for just an absolutely absurd amount of
23:14time compared to most humans on any
23:16endeavor.
23:17>> There's a line at the end, pain of
23:19feedback.
23:20>> I'm interested in that.
23:21Um
23:23I mean rejection hurts. Uh failing
23:26hurts. And I think
23:31when you when you when you give it your
23:32all and then the market, society, the
23:35universe, whatever determines that you
23:37are still not enough, that is very
23:40painful. Um I think that in time
23:44you learn that feedback is fuel rather
23:47than failure. And once that new
23:50association gets paired, I mean, you've
23:53had plenty of incredibly successful
23:54people on this podcast and I would say
23:55many of them have the same kind of I
23:57would call it lesson is like it's not
23:58it's not failure, it's feedback or it's
24:00not failure. Um, but it just means that
24:03like fundamentally they have a different
24:04pairing for losing. And so everyone has
24:07to go through this because like
24:10like losing losing is good and feeling
24:13bad about losing is good because it
24:16forces you to change and that change
24:18means that over time as long as you're
24:20changing in the correct direction you
24:22get better
24:22>> or else you would continue to do the
24:24strategy that caused you to lose last
24:25time and you would just run it back
24:27again. And this is why I have this like
24:29I I thought on the way over here I was
24:32thinking about this and um like I think
24:35one of the big
24:37losses or failures of society right now
24:39is that we are trying to castrate the
24:41teeth from the pain of loss. We're
24:44trying to not allow kids people
24:49the feeling to feel bad.
24:51>> It's like we have determined that
24:52feeling bad is bad but feeling bad is
24:55not bad. Feeling bad is a signal. So
24:58that we need to change because if no one
25:00feels bad ever then it means that
25:02everyone is doing what they want to do
25:04all the time and that is not how a
25:05functioning society works. Sometimes
25:07people do stupid [ __ ] and need to know
25:09and feel bad for it.
25:11>> Eventually reality is going to come into
25:12contact with your decisions. Yes.
25:14>> And the more that that's put off the
25:16less likely you are to come up with a
25:17way to avoid that reality coming into
25:19reality. And so, so the way that you
25:22know right now what's going and this is
25:24probably the the more frightening part
25:25about like some of the media that's out
25:26there is like trying to just redefine
25:29reality and create a fantasy where
25:32you losing and you feeling bad isn't
25:34true. But it doesn't change reality. It
25:37just changes someone's perception of it
25:38for the short term and then they have to
25:40pay reality back with interest in time
25:42and like the check always comes due.
25:44It's just like the interest is much
25:45bigger. And so um in light of you know
25:50my son my child that I have in the
25:52future like I want him to experience the
25:56pain of loss so that he can learn cuz
26:00like how else can you learn? You have to
26:02otherwise it's just it's everything's
26:04quote you know going by feeling and then
26:05also somehow thinking that feeling bad
26:08is bad and also that feeling good is
26:11good and there's tons of things that you
26:13can probably do that feel good that are
26:14not good and there's tons of things that
26:15you can do that feel bad that are not
26:17bad.
26:17>> Well, what a gift to give somebody to
26:19say you can feel bad and not feel bad
26:24about it.
26:24>> Yeah. It's and like and that's okay.
26:27Like you lost. What will we learn? what
26:30will we do next time? Great. Do it again
26:32next.
26:32>> It feels like resilience.
26:34>> Yeah.
26:34>> As opposed to any time that you feel
26:36this emotion which is negative that is
26:38worthy of rushing in and panic and
26:41control and distance that that's almost
26:45like a formula for fragility.
26:48So laddered onto this I know we haven't
26:50talked about so this is this is fun. um
26:53is the idea that we need to like that
26:55because you because you feel bad, it
26:58means that the path that you're on like
27:00you need to change something. And so
27:02it's equal opposite which is like okay
27:04if we know that we're on the path of
27:05getting kicked in the nuts right now and
27:07I know I'm on my 17th or 100th podcast
27:09and I'm still not like a millionaire
27:11yet.
27:14>> I I have not achieved what I want yet.
27:17It does not mean that I have to change
27:19course.
27:20But earlier on you said that
27:23>> bad feelings, feeling bad are important
27:26to update the way that you're
27:28approaching this situation. So how do
27:30you distinguish between the two?
27:31>> No. And that's and that's u and I would
27:32say what you what you hit on is is the
27:34is the crux of it which is judgment
27:36which is like and this is one of the
27:37hardest ones is like how do you help
27:38someone recognize patterns of
27:41when you need to basically it's the
27:44internal question of when do I push and
27:45when do I pivot, right? When do I push
27:46through the hardship versus when do I
27:48adjust? Am I giving up on this set in
27:49the gym because I'm being a [ __ ] or am
27:51I giving up because I'm about to injure
27:52myself?
27:53>> Yeah. And so pivot. I like that.
27:55>> Yeah. And I' and I've worked with this a
27:56lot because it's a pretty classic
27:57entrepreneurship issue of like do I have
27:59product market fit or like do I need to
28:00just keep pushing you like you know
28:01where am I just trying to push up a
28:03hill? Um is that if one of the
28:06fundamental assumptions that you began
28:07your quest with has been proven untrue
28:11based on the feedback then that is where
28:13pivoting makes sense. So, if you said
28:15like, I think that I'm going to create
28:17um a doggy skateboard because I think
28:20that um a lot of dog owners will want to
28:23buy skateboards for their dog. Um would
28:26be like, and I believe that the
28:27percentage like and I want to make a,
28:28you know, a billion dollars doing this.
28:30Um that would mean that there's this
28:32size of the market. This percentage
28:33needs to be the take rate in order for
28:34me to get that that market share. It's
28:36like, okay, if if I talk to a hundred
28:38dog owners and none of them want to buy
28:40my my doggy skateboard, I would not say
28:42that is a push situation. I would say
28:44that is a pivot situation because our
28:46fundamental assumption that we started
28:47this quest with
28:48>> is false.
28:50>> And so we need to take that feedback and
28:51then pivot.
28:52>> If as we're going through they're saying
28:56uh maybe but like I don't know what you
28:59have in your hands. What the hell is
29:00that? So it's like the assumption is not
29:02proven but it's more of an execution
29:03issue. And so it's like okay I just need
29:04to get better. I need to push through.
29:06But it's like it is definitely one of
29:08the harder um lines to to know like
29:11where when should I push when should I
29:12pivot? Uh, what lesson do I learn from
29:15losing?
29:16>> M
29:18>> because losing losing teaches you [ __ ]
29:21and we just need to make sure that we
29:22learn the right thing.
29:25Like teaching will occur.
29:27>> Yes. Whether you take it away or not is
29:29up to you.
29:30>> It's the It's the um I I hired my first
29:32employee and he was a [ __ ] Therefore,
29:35all employees suck, right? So like
29:37losing will teach you something. It's
29:39just want to make sure that we learn the
29:40right lesson. I feel like this is a
29:41justification for making early decisions
29:44as right as possible.
29:46>> Oh, 100%.
29:46>> To try and avoid that PTSD of it's far
29:51easier to learn something than it is to
29:53unlearn something. Probably a hundred
29:54times easier to learn something than it
29:56is to unlearn something. If you've
29:58drilled a particular habit, a particular
30:00bad habit, if you have come up with a a
30:02mode of interacting with your employees
30:04or the world, because all of your
30:05employees, the first three employees,
30:07you get all of them [ __ ] you over and
30:09then finally you get to the fourth, you
30:10have to unlearn all of the compensatory
30:12mechanisms that you built on the first
30:13three. Now that you've got someone who's
30:15worthy of that, and you're restricting
30:17their progress, you're slowing
30:18everything down. You're being
30:19hypervigilant. It doesn't feel like a
30:20good place to work. Try and make your
30:22early decisions, right?
30:24>> Yeah. Changing a behavior with a long
30:26history of reinforcement is harder than
30:28changing one with no history of
30:30>> it's such a hardcore behaviorist.
30:32>> Yeah. Well, I mean it's the only thing
30:33that's made sense to me in the world.
30:35Like it's I mean it's been upheld.
30:38>> I mean it's just I don't even it's just
30:43my reality. So I'll say differently like
30:47many people do not get what they want.
30:50They look up at their lives and they're
30:51like this is not what I want. And so if
30:53you don't have what you want, it means
30:54that the model that you view the world
30:56through is incorrect or you have the
30:58correct model and the incorrect
31:00variables or insufficient variables.
31:01It's basically all it is.
31:03>> And so for me, the more I have looked
31:07purely at inputs and outputs, the more
31:11I've gotten my predictions correct. And
31:13so I have been super reinforced for
31:15using this style of of of thinking. And
31:18so I do it more. And so it's just and
31:20like I I I I read some of my old stuff
31:22and I'm like, "Oh man, like I could have
31:24said this in half as much words if I now
31:25I because it's understanding why. Like
31:28at the most basic level, it's just
31:30understanding why." Um I'll give an
31:33example and I think this is why the vast
31:34majority of the world like walks around
31:35confused, which is I don't have what I
31:38want. That didn't go the way I expected.
31:40She took that worse than I thought. So
31:42you're you're constantly surprised by
31:43reality. And so in in a simple sentence
31:46like Johnny stole because he's
31:48dishonest, right? Most people would nod
31:51their heads and be like, "Yeah, Johnny
31:52stole because he's dishonest." But we
31:53say, "What does dishonest mean?"
31:55Dishonest means it's a label, right,
31:57that we ascribe to somebody who does a
31:59series of different behaviors, one of
32:01which is stealing. And so if we were to
32:04restate that sentence with a broken down
32:05definition, it would then be Johnny
32:07stole because he's the type of person
32:08who steals, which is circular and makes
32:10no sense
32:12because the real reason that Johnny
32:14stole is because he's been reinforced
32:15for stealing in the past or he saw
32:17someone who got reinforced for stealing
32:19and then modeled their behavior. That is
32:21why Johnny stole.
32:22>> And so because of that basic
32:23misunderstanding, most people have these
32:25words that they use to explain their
32:27reality that they don't actually
32:28understand. And as a result, reality
32:30fools them more often than it should. he
32:31was rewarded for it or he was punished
32:33for doing the opposite of it.
32:34>> Exactly. And so um that basic that like
32:37and that what I just explained is is the
32:40difference between description and
32:41explanation. Um which is relatively
32:44heady and I think difficult sometimes to
32:46grasp but is at the most basic level
32:49like my worldview.
32:51>> This is what happened. This is why it
32:52happened.
32:53>> Why? Yeah. And so from that one kind of
32:56basic understanding everything else can
32:58kind of pretty much get laded up. And
33:00so, um,
33:05said differently, if if I wanted to tell
33:08a child, get good at basketball, right?
33:12Um, I would not tell him, get better at
33:16basketball, because a 5-year-old would
33:19be like, I don't know how to do that.
33:20What does that mean? So, I'd be like,
33:22okay, well, let's break it down. We've
33:23got dribbling, passing, shooting. Okay,
33:26do that a little bit closer, but they
33:27still probably don't know how to. If I
33:28say, "Go get better at dribbling,
33:30passing, and shooting." Still can't do
33:31anything with that until eventually be
33:33like, "Okay, passing. So, I want you to
33:34take a step with your left foot towards
33:36the the person, and I want you to extend
33:38your elbows and finish with your thumbs
33:40down. Um, and if the ball goes towards
33:43them in the direction that they're
33:44running, and they catch it, you've
33:45passed successfully." And then I would
33:46repeat that chain of events until
33:48eventually they would understand that
33:48that chain of behaviors equals passing.
33:50And if they do it a lot and they hit the
33:52target many times, they would be good at
33:54passing. And we'd repeat that all the
33:55way down until they're good at passing,
33:56dribbling, shooting, etc. and then
33:58eventually would describe them as a good
33:59basketball player. But that basic
34:02unbundling and rebundling of terms is
34:04why I think the vast majority of people
34:05are wildly um confused by what's going
34:09on around them is that someone says,
34:11"Why don't you love me?" And he's like,
34:13"What are you talking about?" He's like,
34:14"I pay the bills. I take out the trash.
34:16Like, you know, like what do you want
34:18from me?" And she says, "Uh, like you
34:21don't tell me I'm pretty. You don't hug
34:23me. uh like you don't listen to me when
34:26I when I you don't never never ask me
34:27how my day is going. And it's because
34:29for her she defines love in these
34:32behaviors and he defines love in these
34:34behaviors and so then they fight forever
34:35rather than just saying like what does
34:36that mean? What does that mean? Um we
34:39had uh we had two employees that were
34:41arguing about something uh at
34:42acquisition and one was like hey can you
34:45um I would be fine if you were just like
34:47kind and polite to me and um I was like
34:50okay what does that mean? And uh there
34:54was obviously a moment of like
34:55hesitation there cuz it's like okay so
34:56you want the other person to guess what
34:58you think in your mind means good
35:00behavior but you've never articulated it
35:01and so you want them to guess and
35:02somehow get it right.
35:03>> Mhm. And so finally it just was like can
35:05you ask more questions rather than
35:06making more statements and the other
35:07person was like yeah sure it's like
35:09great but that basic thing now and
35:12they're fine now and everything's great
35:13and so but like this is why I I view the
35:16world and behavior because I have wanted
35:19things but I didn't know how to get them
35:22which is happens in reality and so as
35:25long as I live in reality I prefer to
35:28define things through reality and then
35:30reality tends to behave far more as I
35:32predicted it Ward. Before we continue,
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36:53want you to do this, but I didn't tell
36:54you. It's that Neil Strauss line,
36:56unspoken expectations are premeditated
36:58resentments, [laughter]
36:59>> right?
37:02>> You do this thing that I didn't tell you
37:03to do.
37:04>> Yeah, probably not deliberately because
37:05I think a lot of people do it, not on
37:07purpose,
37:07>> of course, but it's a unconscious
37:10premeditated resentment. The the
37:12investment that you are making will be a
37:14resentment in future that you aren't
37:16aware is about to come about.
37:17>> Yeah.
37:17>> Another thing on the uh people's map of
37:21reality is inaccurate. I think one of
37:24the most obvious realizations that you
37:27can have when you hear somebody who
37:28complains a lot is that their framework
37:31of reality is incorrect.
37:33>> Oh, by a mile.
37:34>> A complaint is you saying, "Why is
37:36reality not delivering that to me which
37:38I anticipated?"
37:40>> And reality doesn't care. Reality is
37:42just going to continue to deliver to you
37:44that which it is giving.
37:46>> Why is there all of this traffic on the
37:48way to work? There shouldn't be all of
37:49this traffic. I didn't anticipate all of
37:50this traffic.
37:51>> Yeah. I assumed there wouldn't be
37:53traffic. Reality disagreed with me.
37:56Reality is not wrong.
37:57>> It's undefeated.
37:59>> Reality is undefeated. Yeah, it's a
38:01million and0. A million TKOs's.
38:04[laughter]
38:06>> So, this is really I mean
38:09I can talk about this as long as you
38:11want. You know this. Um,
38:13>> so what what this becomes really
38:15interesting is um how often this
38:18misconception of reality
38:21causes people to get fooled and keep pe
38:24keep the wrong people in their lives and
38:27keep sometimes the right people out of
38:29their lives. And so um I call this uh
38:33malicious benefit or um well-intentioned
38:36harm. And so on one hand uh
38:42if there are a number of people who make
38:45let's say negative videos about you,
38:48they intend to harm you.
38:51But when you look at your media and the
38:54way that you are compensated through the
38:55impressions that you earn and the amount
38:57of relevance that you have, you make
39:00more money. And so though they intended
39:03to hurt you, they have taken their time
39:06and effort which you normally have to
39:08pay people for and then for free promote
39:11you. What a gift. It just means that
39:14they are incompetent at doing harm,
39:16which is wonderful. You want all your
39:18enemies to be incompetent in their
39:19harming. On the other hand, you have
39:22somebody who loves, I'll use this in
39:24quotes, right? Loves you, uh, means you
39:27well, but is also incompetent. And as a
39:30result, whenever they enter your life,
39:32your life gets worse. They cause
39:35negative consequences to occur. And so,
39:37a lot of people care a huge amount about
39:40intention. And this was one of the
39:41larger shifts that I think happened in
39:43my I'll call it career, but just my life
39:46um was completely stripping people of
39:50their intentions and only looking at
39:52their outputs. And that made navigating
39:56relationships significantly easier for
39:58me because it allowed me to remove the
40:01noise from the signal of the person. And
40:05so there are some people like I mean
40:07honestly the reason that one of the this
40:10is like probably the very beginning of
40:12this kind of thought change was with Ila
40:15like I had an adviser if you want to
40:17call it that at the time and I was like
40:19I'm not sure if I I want to marry this
40:21girl. I don't, you know, help me, you
40:22know, make this decision. And he said,
40:24"Well, just look at your stats." He's
40:25like, "Are you in better shape?" And I
40:26was like, "Well, yeah. You know, she
40:27eats healthy and she goes to the gym, so
40:28I you know, I go with her." And he's
40:29like, "Okay." Um, so you're you you're
40:32exercising more, you're eating better.
40:34Okay. Are you drinking as much? He's
40:35like, "No, she doesn't really drink."
40:37And I like drinking. I'm probably a bad
40:38influencer. [laughter]
40:40He's like, "Okay." So she decreases this
40:42kind of negative thing. Okay, got it.
40:43And he's like, "What about what about
40:44business wise?" I like, "Oh, I'm making
40:45more than I've ever made." And she's
40:47helping me do that. He's like, "Okay."
40:49And so he just went down the list of all
40:51these different kind of components of my
40:52life that I could measure. And he's
40:54like, "It seems like your life is
40:54significantly better with this person in
40:56it." Um, and when I contrast that to
40:58some of the call relationships I had in
41:00the past, it was almost the opposite.
41:02Like I would get into the relationship
41:03and all of a sudden like I wouldn't work
41:04out as much and I wouldn't eat as
41:06healthy and I would go out more and uh
41:07my business would suffer. Um, and so
41:09like all the things that I cared about
41:11would go down. And so even though I
41:13don't think that person had any
41:13malicious intent, I think they had good
41:15intent, but they had well-intentioned
41:17harm. And so
41:20that that that lens has helped me make
41:23so many decisions in in a way that
41:25removes a lot of the emotional weight
41:26behind them, which is like, oh, I I
41:28absolutely believe that you are a
41:29well-intentioned person. I was like, I
41:30just think you're very incompetent at
41:31doing at doing good for me. Like, you do
41:33not have the skill to help me. I'm not
41:35prepared to be the collateral damage of
41:38your good intentioned errors.
41:40>> Yes. Um as you spin around trying to
41:43give me a hug, but by accident punch me
41:45in the face.
41:45>> Yes. Like it's you're driving down the
41:47street and because you didn't mean to
41:50but weren't paying attention, you ran
41:51somebody over. Functionally, the
41:53difference between that person being
41:55dead because you didn't mean to cuz you
41:57were texting on your phone or because
41:58you're a bad driver and you swerving off
42:02the street to hit them, the outcome is
42:04the same. And this is something that our
42:07society actively disagrees with because
42:09if we look at how our laws are written,
42:11we try to tease out intention and we
42:13change punishment and consequences based
42:15on intention. Is that not important to a
42:18degree?
42:19>> It can be, but I'm just more saying um
42:21I'm not saying should or shouldn't, but
42:22I'm saying in terms of how you navigate
42:25getting what you want out of life, if
42:27you were the one who got hit, you're
42:29dead either way. Mhm.
42:30>> And so when any n equals 1,
42:33I would look at the signal, what happens
42:36rather than the intention 100 times out
42:38of 100.
42:39>> Is there any space? It sounds like uh
42:44for as long as this person in my life
42:45benefits me.
42:46>> Mhm.
42:48>> It's good to keep them in and the moment
42:49that they stop benefiting me, then I get
42:52rid of them.
42:53>> Mhm.
42:53>> To some people that would come across as
42:55a very transactional view of
42:56relationships. I think it assumes a
42:58binary of benefit, not benefit. And most
43:01people have many things that they do.
43:03Like let's say somebody, let's say
43:04you're like, I'm married to somebody.
43:05What happens when that person stops
43:06serving me? Well, it's very unlikely
43:08that tomorrow someone stop goes from I
43:11help you in these hundred ways to I
43:13either hurt you or help you in zero.
43:15It's more common or more likely that you
43:17had a hundred ways and now 10 years
43:19later they help you 70 ways and maybe 10
43:21years later they help you 40 ways. But
43:23if you're at least cognizant of the
43:25hundred ways that that person helps you,
43:27then it allows you to articulate, hey,
43:28when you do these things, it helps me a
43:30lot. It would really mean a lot to me.
43:31Um,
43:32>> reinforcement again.
43:33>> Yeah. I mean, and and and
43:35I appreciate the the Yes. Um um but like
43:40in different terms, I was going to I was
43:41going to put my my Chris hat on. This is
43:42just good communication, right? Like how
43:45do I know what you want until you tell
43:46me? And I think that people say what you
43:49just said, which is um people would see
43:51this as transactional. And then I would
43:53say and
43:57yes and why is this wrong? Why have you
44:01decided that having an exchange is
44:03incorrect? It's how society works. All
44:05of capitalism, which is the best
44:06societies have been built on exchange,
44:08voluntary exchange.
44:09>> I think some people would feel icky
44:10about applying that exchange capitalism
44:13dynamic inside of friendships and
44:15intimate relationships.
44:16>> I think that exchange happens either
44:17way. They just don't want to say it. If
44:19if you have a friend and you are like ah
44:23we're we're ride or die. It means you
44:24have a long history of reinforcement
44:26which means you have a long extinction
44:27curve. It just means that you've been
44:28reinforced many times for this
44:29friendship which means that you're
44:30willing to deal with blips but the
44:32amount of blips that you're willing to
44:34deal with is proportional to the history
44:35of reinforcement. If someone new comes
44:37into your life and has almost done
44:39nothing good and then does a blip, you
44:40don't have as much balance in the
44:42system.
44:42>> Exactly. You have no reason to. So the
44:44hope the basically the extinction curve
44:46is functionally just how long you're
44:47willing to hope that the good thing
44:49comes back.
44:50>> You probably should have a degree of
44:51recency bias though.
44:53>> Oh yeah. Because if the person's
44:54behavior is change Yeah. for sure it's
44:55going to be it's always discounted.
44:57>> Someone that was 50% a good guy and 50%
44:59an [ __ ] The 50%
45:01>> that is closest to you is more salient
45:04than the 50% that started 10 years ago.
45:06>> Oh yeah. If it was front half back half,
45:07100%. And that's and honestly and this
45:09is like I think this is super relevant
45:10for a lot of people like people do
45:12change.
45:14And that's okay. And you can be friends
45:16with the person they once were and no
45:18longer friends with the person they are.
45:19And that's okay.
45:21>> Mark Manson dropped this unreal line
45:23that reminded me of you.
45:24>> Okay.
45:25>> Do hard [ __ ] Not [snorts] because it's
45:27fun, but because the win actually means
45:29something. You bled for it. You broke
45:31for it. You earned it. Easy wins are
45:34forgettable. Hard ones change you.
45:37That's the point.
45:39That's your line. Everything is hard and
45:42no one cares.
45:44[laughter]
45:48Um, I'm sorry accomplishing your dreams
45:50wasn't fast, easy, and risk-f free.
45:52[snorts]
45:53[gasps]
45:53Like,
45:55they wouldn't be dreams if they were,
45:57and you wouldn't call them wins if they
45:59were easy, cuz they would just be you
46:01tying your shoes. And what was once a
46:03win when you were five is no longer a
46:05win when you're competent. And with
46:06increased competence comes increased
46:08stakes. You have to be willing to bet
46:10more, put more on the line to win
46:11bigger. Which means like if you're a
46:13billionaire playing $10 hands of poker
46:15is a complete waste of time. Uh Gabe
46:18from I Prevail. He's the drummer from I
46:20Prevail.
46:21>> You will always think you suck. That's
46:24okay. It's okay to suck compared to your
46:26standards. As you grow, so will your
46:28standards. That doesn't mean you
46:29actually suck.
46:36Yeah. I think it just be the the
46:37actuality of sucking versus the
46:38perception of sucking.
46:39>> Correct. [laughter]
46:41It's that as as you increase in
46:43capacity, you increase in standards. And
46:45given that your standards will always
46:47outstrip your capacity, there will
46:48always be this felt sense lack between
46:50where I am and where I want to be. But
46:53yeah, that Mark Manson line I think is
46:55really important in sort of an era of AI
46:59because you can speedrun or shortcut
47:02getting the outcome without putting in
47:05the requisite inputs. Now, because
47:07everybody's obsessed with leverage and
47:08trying to get as many outputs from as
47:10few inputs as possible, that does make
47:12sense. But when you begin to fully
47:13detach it from it and you don't focus on
47:17the journey that got you there in the
47:18same way and you're not scrutinizing the
47:21outputs with the same level of finitude
47:24and and resolution cost.
47:26>> Yes.
47:26>> Yes. And it's not just the outputs that
47:30matter. It's not just the output. And
47:32this is where the sort of leverage crowd
47:34doesn't fully come into reality. It
47:37doesn't come into contact with the way
47:39that humans are telling themselves the
47:42story of their life. If all if you could
47:45come up with some sort of super quick
47:46code that would write hundred million
47:49dollar leads for you,
47:51>> the entire project would feel different.
47:55Your process of getting that it could be
47:56word for word the exact same. Take every
47:58word that I've written and create this
47:59book based on this brief. Think
48:01>> Mhm.
48:03I would prove that AI knew a lot about
48:05leads but not me. And I think that I
48:07mean um I think this this this sits at
48:11the discrepancy between saying the
48:12output of your life is
48:16who you become and the aggregate set of
48:18behavior that you've learned over your
48:19life or if the output of your life is
48:21the stuff that you that exists as a
48:24result of you being here. Um and that is
48:28more of a philosophical question than I
48:29think it is a like right or wrong. I
48:31think you can make arguments for either
48:32side of like the p the purpose of your
48:35life is what changed as a result of you
48:36being here, what you did or who you
48:38became.
48:38>> Yeah. Um or the purpose of your life is
48:41all of the outside only existed to
48:43change the inside. And I think there's
48:45there's arguments for both. I have I'm I
48:47would say I have strong affinity towards
48:48both definition definitions because um I
48:52would say that when I go through harder
48:53times, I lean more towards like this is
48:55happening for me. And when I'm going
48:57through easier times, it's like I'm hap
48:59I I am happening to it. [laughter]
49:01>> Yeah. Yeah.
49:02>> Yeah.
49:03>> I'm happening to reality.
49:04>> But the binary of that
49:06>> Yeah.
49:06>> seeing it as only one or the other will
49:09create a kind of fragility. If all that
49:11you're focused on is outcomes, then
49:13you're never going to think about
49:14becoming the person who can generate
49:16those outcomes because you're going to
49:17find shortcuts that don't necessarily
49:19work. And if you're only ever focused on
49:20inputs, you're never going to actually
49:22work out if all of this suffering
49:24amounted to anything. Show me some
49:26George uh in the house last night was
49:28reading one of these books and he he
49:30wasn't happy with the way that the
49:32author had put together the sentence and
49:34he says show me something I can drop on
49:36my foot.
49:37>> That was his line. Like I can't drop
49:39anything on my [ __ ] foot with this.
49:41Show me something I can drop on my foot.
49:43Wishywashy vague language. Do you
49:46remember the park bench scene in
49:48Goodwill Hunting?
49:50>> No. I think it long enough ago. Yeah.
49:52>> Sound of park bench. Robin Williams
49:54talking to Matt Damon about love and he
49:55has this line. He says, "Love is an
49:58active commitment, Will. It's a choice
50:00to value someone else's well-being as
50:01much as your own." If you watch the
50:04film, you'll know that he doesn't say
50:06that. He says this instead. You wouldn't
50:09know about sleeping sitting up in the
50:11hospital room for 2 months because the
50:13doctors could see in your eyes that the
50:14term visiting hours do not apply to you.
50:18It's the same thing, same idea, right?
50:21Idea, picture, words. And that is the
50:23order. Not idea, words, pictures. Show
50:27me something I can drop on my [ __ ]
50:29foot.
50:29>> That I can drop on my foot.
50:41It's clear language.
50:44Both of them. Both of the examples.
50:48I think it's interesting because with
50:50the drop on your foot, it's like I think
50:51the the the picture is obviously like
50:54more emotive. Um,
50:57and because of that can be more
51:00motivating, more persuasive, etc. Where
51:02I think the drop on drop on my foot part
51:05where I like where where I have
51:07struggled as a human being is taking
51:10that idea and saying I want to do that.
51:13I want that type of love. And then
51:15saying, well, the person I love is not
51:18in the hospital and I don't have the
51:21opportunity right now to sleep standing
51:23up and have a doctor know that visiting
51:24hours don't apply to me.
51:26>> What do I do?
51:28>> And so then it does go back to um what
51:32I'm willing to give up in order to
51:33maintain something. But
51:34>> it's interesting when there isn't that
51:36level of pressure.
51:38You know, when you brush up against the
51:40grain of life, when you're swimming into
51:42the stream, it's very easy to see effort
51:45because the whole world is bearing down
51:46on you. So, there's an enemy to go up
51:48against. I think when things are easy,
51:50like, okay, well, what does love look
51:53like when things are easy? Uh, we
51:56talking relational love. Yeah.
52:03I think it's really, well, I'll just say
52:04more how I measure it. Um, but I think
52:07it's just what you're willing to give up
52:08in order to maintain something. And so
52:09if I have a relationship and I have
52:11somebody that I love a lot that I'm
52:12willing to give up everything, including
52:13my life in order to maintain that
52:14relationship. Um,
52:17and so or for that person or for that
52:19idea, for freedom, for the country. Um,
52:22if you love something a lot, you're
52:23willing to give up everything for it.
52:24Um, and so when that person asks you to
52:27do something or doesn't ask you to do
52:29something and you think that they would
52:30still like it,
52:32>> then you are willing to inconvenience
52:34yourself to a large degree in order to
52:36do that. Um, and I think that like the
52:39reason this stuff is so valuable for me
52:41is that like
52:44it allows me to both give the things
52:46that I think the other person wants or
52:48that they've told me they want, but also
52:50how to differentiate who is using words
52:52in order to try and manipulate me. when
52:54someone like dude dude you know I love
52:56you know um if it was bromance obviously
53:00um
53:01>> but then you could say what have you
53:02given up in order to maintain this in
53:05what way have you inconvenienced
53:06yourself uh in order to maintain this
53:09relationship
53:10because all of the actions you've taken
53:13you've taken out of convenience and this
53:15relationship has been only beneficial
53:17for you
53:18>> which is fine there's nothing wrong with
53:20that but there will come a time where
53:22our needs are at odds
53:25>> and in that situation I would like to
53:27know how reinforcing was all the other
53:29stuff so that it is worth basically it's
53:32saying like how much good was the good
53:33for you so that you're willing to deal
53:35with some bad can that lead to a
53:37situation where you almost purposefully
53:42try to seek out difficulty in an attempt
53:45to stress test relationships because
53:48>> not all relationships should have it the
53:50the glorious friendship would be
53:52seamless between you and another guy and
53:55there's never anything you have to
53:56navigate and it's all just beneficial
53:58and positive in both directions.
53:59>> I have a friend like that. I've been
54:01friends since sixth grade and I don't
54:04think we've ever had conflict which is
54:06great and rare and that's why we are so
54:08friends. Um but no, I think that it's
54:12it's okay for conflict to occur. It's
54:14okay for seasons of friendship to end.
54:16Um, but you can measure how how how good
54:19of friends you are by how and I don't
54:20know how much inconvenience he might be
54:22willing to deal with with me, but we
54:24just it just so happens that we really
54:27haven't had any need for conflict or
54:29competition.
54:30>> He's a an FBI agent and so his measures
54:33of success, like he has zero, there's no
54:35jealousy, there's no envy, there's no
54:36anything. It's just like, how many bad
54:38guys you catch today? He's like, bro,
54:39you got to hear this one, right? And so
54:41we can just and he's like, you know,
54:42then he'll just ask ridiculous questions
54:44about money stuff because he just thinks
54:45it's funny. [laughter]
54:47>> Yeah.
54:48>> Yeah.
54:48>> So, and and that has worked out well.
54:50But
54:52>> most people have no idea where the
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55:56You're behind because you're in a rush.
55:58>> And you're in a rush because you feel
55:59behind. and you feel behind because
56:02you're in a different season than the
56:03people you're comparing yourself to.
56:05You're not behind. You're just early.
56:11Yeah. It's measuring the output
56:12difference with um
56:15without comparing the input difference.
56:17I think it's basically it. It's like uh
56:19why isn't my podcast like Rogan's? It's
56:21like okay well he's got 10 more year. I
56:24don't you would know the the answer to
56:25that, right? 10 more years and however
56:27many more podcasts um more and so it's
56:30okay well if I were to match that and
56:33have done it back in time would I have
56:35the same would I be bigger
56:36>> the same skill with the same
56:37>> all of that and so it's it's it's it's
56:39comparing outputs without comparing
56:41inputs and I really just think it comes
56:42down to that at the most basic level now
56:43most of the time um you are early
56:46because most people who make that I
56:48would call it uh error in judgment are
56:50earlier in their careers and I also
56:53don't think there's anything necessarily
56:54wrong like a lot of people are like
56:55comparison is the thief of joy. Um, I
56:58don't agree with that. I think
56:59comparison is how you measure things.
57:01Like this this this is the discrepancy.
57:04Labeling the discrepancy as bad as the
57:06thief of joy.
57:07>> Comparison in general is how you can
57:08know what the discrepancy looks like
57:10between what you want and what you have
57:11so that you can fix it.
57:15So, we should compare. Absolutely. You
57:17should compare yourself to Rogan. I'm
57:18just using you. But like, you know, I
57:20should compare myself to Elon. Of
57:21course, I should. Um, so I could look at
57:24the massive discrepancy between between
57:26me and Elon. Um, and that just gives me
57:30clarity on what things I need to do to
57:32try and decrease that.
57:34>> How do you think about getting rid of
57:36the label of bad?
57:40>> I think that
57:42the first the first action you take when
57:45you have not been reinforced for an
57:47action you do through modeling. So, and
57:50this is why we do these types of
57:51podcasts. I assume I mean is that if you
57:55haven't done the hard thing or the hard
57:57thing that you want to do or taking the
57:58bet or taking the risk, we look for
58:01other people who have been the penguins
58:02who jumped off the edge first and was
58:04there an alligator. Well, no alligators
58:06for penguins, but polar bear at the
58:07bottom uh to to eat them or did they
58:11swim and get to the next iceberg and
58:12then they found whatever. Um so we look
58:15at other people and so modeling is a
58:18very real way. That's how you learn
58:19everything when you're a child is you
58:20look at what other people do. Good
58:21things happen to them. Okay, I'm going
58:22to do that. And so in the short term, we
58:25model the long-term play is that once
58:27you take that first step, ideally you
58:29don't get eaten by a polar bear and
58:31instead you also get a fish and then you
58:32go up and then you get reinforced for
58:33that and then basically every moment
58:35after that is your own experience
58:37becomes the loop. But the first jump
58:39comes from looking at whatever everyone
58:41else does and then takes the jump. Now,
58:43where that's so difficult to do is that
58:45you're looking what everyone else is
58:46doing or at least the people that you
58:47want to emulate, which is, you know,
58:48really important. Like, don't listen to
58:49the people closest to you. Listen to the
58:51people closest to your goals. Um, which
58:53is not necessarily the same people,
58:54often not. Um, I want to listen to them.
58:56I want to look I want to model their
58:57behavior. Um, but then also still
59:00ignoring all of other people. So, it's
59:02like I'm listening to these people. I'm
59:04ignoring these people. But behavior is
59:06tough because you're still valuing other
59:07people a lot. Yeah. Um and so I think
59:10this is why so many I would say again I
59:12come from the entrepreneur side but like
59:14successful entrepreneurs have a very
59:16first principles approach of thinking
59:17because at some point no one has gone to
59:20the moon and you just have to say like
59:22does physics prevent me from doing this
59:25and then when you reason everything from
59:26the ground up um you're able to find
59:29discrepancies between what people
59:30believe and what's true and that's
59:31obviously where opportunity exists.
59:33your David Deutsch pill with that. Does
59:35physics
59:37prevent me from being able to achieve
59:38this? If not, then I just think
59:40possible. Yeah, it is possible. Yeah. I
59:42think one of the reasons that these
59:44episodes
59:46resonate
59:48is that
59:51a lot of people who want to do things
59:53aren't around people who know how to do
59:55them. And the harder the thing is that
59:57you're trying to achieve, the rarer it
1:00:00is to find people who are able to
1:00:01support you in the doing of it or and
1:00:04not even just support you, but give you
1:00:06legitimate advice about how to get that.
1:00:10>> I I 100% agree and this is something
1:00:12that I've I' I've struggled a lot with
1:00:13because the what gives you the
1:00:16credibility to gain media and attention
1:00:18is being exceptional in some domain most
1:00:21of the time. And being exceptional in a
1:00:23domain makes you unrelatable.
1:00:25And so it's kind of this very difficult
1:00:28uh catch 22 where
1:00:30>> credibility and relatability are
1:00:31inverse,
1:00:32>> right? And I but like to your point,
1:00:35poor people are surrounded by other poor
1:00:37people and then assume that that is
1:00:39everyone because it's everyone they
1:00:41know, not everyone that exists, but it's
1:00:43their everyone as far as they're
1:00:44concerned. And I think that's what makes
1:00:45it so difficult in the beginning to to
1:00:47get out of that first bubble is because
1:00:49you have to look outside and look at
1:00:51some people who might even appear
1:00:52unrelatable and try and grasp at the
1:00:55straws of their character, their origin
1:00:56story where again people could hear me
1:00:58say that I slept on the floor that I
1:00:59didn't have enough money, whatever. But
1:01:01like they only see me not then. No one's
1:01:04interviewing the gym owner who's
1:01:06sleeping on the floor who's going to
1:01:08someday become something because they
1:01:10don't know yet. That's your one regret
1:01:13or one of the regrets that I have that's
1:01:15the same as yours which is I didn't
1:01:16track the early journey enough.
1:01:18>> If anyone is listening to this I I I'm
1:01:21not a big advocate of regrets in general
1:01:23but like a behavior that I would have
1:01:25changed that I don't think would have
1:01:26changed the outcome is like document and
1:01:30you don't have to share you don't have
1:01:31to share it publicly. Just take
1:01:33pictures, take voice notes, email
1:01:35yourself, whatever whatever catalog you
1:01:37want. I remember one of the most
1:01:39important personal moments that I had
1:01:41was when I lost everything for the first
1:01:43time. Um, I screenshotted my bank
1:01:45account. So, I went from having, you
1:01:46know, six successful gyms to losing all
1:01:48of it and having $1,000 to my name. And
1:01:52I remember looking at my bank account. I
1:01:53was like,
1:01:55"Wow, that's what the bottom of the
1:01:56barrel looks like. That is," and I
1:01:58hadn't, you know, seen a number that low
1:01:59in a very, very, very long time. Even in
1:02:00high school, I had more than that just
1:02:02cuz I had jobs and I didn't have
1:02:03expenses. And so, um, I screenshotted it
1:02:06and it was this very cathartic moment
1:02:08for me because I was like, never again.
1:02:10Like, I will not let this happen and I
1:02:12will have this be part of the story I
1:02:13tell. And I still have that screenshot
1:02:15and I show it because like, so
1:02:18basically,
1:02:20you want to document it because you
1:02:22believe that you will be the hero that
1:02:24will overcome. And I think that if you
1:02:26can if you can really just grasp it,
1:02:28like just beginning the documentation
1:02:29story, like even the fact that Kanye had
1:02:31some of those early videos, it's like he
1:02:33believed that he would make it and he
1:02:34believed he would use it. And so I think
1:02:36one of the one of the greatest things
1:02:37you can do is and it was like it was
1:02:39almost like at that point like I I I
1:02:40believed when I took that screenshot
1:02:42that I was going to win and I did
1:02:43believe I was going to get it back.
1:02:45>> Um and so the earlier you can have that
1:02:47realization that like I have to document
1:02:49this monster otherwise I won't be able
1:02:51to tell the story. And the story, the
1:02:52receiver of that story, the biggest
1:02:54beneficiary of that story is you.
1:03:01>> I wish I'd done the same. I wish that
1:03:03I'd done the same. You know,
1:03:06all the way back in my previous life,
1:03:08there was a a period in my placement
1:03:11year, I would have been 20. I was living
1:03:13in Scotland. And one of the problems
1:03:14that you have with running businesses in
1:03:16events, especially long single outcome
1:03:20events, is that it's all costs until you
1:03:23finally get to cash in the revenue. And
1:03:26there was a dwindling pot of money that
1:03:28we had because we were putting all of
1:03:30this time in and driving from Edinburgh
1:03:32to Glasgow to Sterling to Dundee to come
1:03:33back to hand out flyers, to manage the
1:03:35guest listers, to restock the bars with
1:03:37the t-shirts, to sell the thing. And the
1:03:39event wasn't going to happen for another
1:03:40month. And that just meant it was all
1:03:43output. I needed to pay for my gym
1:03:45membership and I needed to eat food and
1:03:46I needed to drive to these different
1:03:48places. Dwindled, dwindled, dwindled,
1:03:50dwindled. And we're not going to get to
1:03:51withdraw this money until it happens.
1:03:52And I had a friend who came to help me
1:03:55hand out flyers cuz my business partner
1:03:57needed to look after freshers week in
1:03:58Newcastle and I was going to look after
1:03:59freshers week across all of Scotland. I
1:04:01had my friend who came up a bit of a
1:04:03rough dude but nice guy and he'd grown
1:04:06up in serious poverty in the northeast
1:04:08of the UK and this was the first time
1:04:10that I was out of money zero zero money
1:04:14and I could have rung my parents and I'm
1:04:16sure that they would have sent me some
1:04:17cash but I had too much pride and I felt
1:04:19too ashamed to do it and there was this
1:04:21moment where we were in this flat and uh
1:04:25Saki Hall Street in Edinburgh on the far
1:04:28side of Edinburgh uh sorry Dean Park
1:04:30Road Dean Park road on the other side of
1:04:31Edinburgh and I was saying, "Hey, man,
1:04:33like I uh we're out of food in the house
1:04:35and I I don't know where we're going to
1:04:36get it from." He, "Oh, don't worry, man.
1:04:37I'll just go and steal some."
1:04:39And his background, his background from
1:04:43his upbringing was that when you run out
1:04:45of money, you go and steal food.
1:04:46[laughter] And I remember thinking,
1:04:48>> "Yeah, it's world.
1:04:50>> I've got myself to the point in life
1:04:53where
1:04:54stealing food is a realistic
1:04:57decision." And that do I want to video
1:05:01my friend Dean like stealing sandwiches
1:05:04from the Tesco around the corner?
1:05:06Probably not. But the fact that that
1:05:08story only exists for me in my mind and
1:05:10then the only way that I can communicate
1:05:12the lessons that I took from it and the
1:05:13way that it made me feel is by having to
1:05:15go through this retelling. Uh yeah,
1:05:19capture [ __ ] especially in the
1:05:20beginning.
1:05:23The worst case scenario is you delete
1:05:24it.
1:05:26Like that's the I'm just saying for like
1:05:28what's the downside of doing it? The
1:05:29downside of doing it is that you quote
1:05:30don't use it and that you delete it. But
1:05:32the like the upside of having it as an
1:05:34artifact of kind of the stepping stones
1:05:36of of who you wanted to become I think
1:05:38is invaluable.
1:05:40>> Everything looks like luck to the
1:05:41unskilled. Ignore them.
1:05:45>> Yeah. [laughter]
1:05:47Um
1:05:53you have to have skill.
1:05:56In order to perceive and recognize
1:05:59skill, you have to have a base level of
1:06:01skill. Now, you don't have to have the
1:06:02same level of skill as somebody else,
1:06:04but the greater skill you have in any
1:06:06domain, the more you appreciate the
1:06:08skill of somebody who's exceptional. So,
1:06:10for example, if you don't understand the
1:06:12rules of basketball, it's just guys
1:06:14passing a ball around and you don't know
1:06:16who scores or how it works or why
1:06:18they're wearing different shirts. Like,
1:06:19you have no understanding what's going
1:06:21on.
1:06:21>> Brazilian jiu-jitsu is a great example
1:06:23of this.
1:06:24>> No idea. Is that good? Is he Is the guy
1:06:26>> Is he winning?
1:06:27>> Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] Who's winning?
1:06:28Who's winning?
1:06:29>> Right. And then the And then the greater
1:06:31your skill, the greater your
1:06:33appreciation for how how good someone is
1:06:35at that thing.
1:06:36>> Resolution, more dexterity.
1:06:38>> 100%. And so like for that reason, if if
1:06:40people who are around you as you begin
1:06:43to walk, you know, up the ascension of
1:06:45beginning to get successful, you have
1:06:47your first signs of life like, "Oh my
1:06:48god, this might actually start working."
1:06:50Um, and you get angry. Um, I'm only
1:06:53speaking from experience here. When
1:06:54people attribute the success um to luck
1:06:57rather than effort, the reality is one,
1:07:00there was probably some luck. Two, um,
1:07:03they don't have the skill to recognize
1:07:06your skill. It's a question of
1:07:08competence, not um, malicious intent.
1:07:11And I think just just defining it that
1:07:13way has made it significantly or made it
1:07:15significantly easier for me to realize.
1:07:16was like, "Oh, they they they don't have
1:07:19the ability to recognize what I didn't
1:07:21because if they did have the ability to
1:07:23fully comprehend the skill that it took,
1:07:26they would be able to do it, too."
1:07:27>> Mhm. Mark Manson, James Clear have got
1:07:30an idea that's similar to that. You only
1:07:32envy the lives of people whose
1:07:33sacrifices you cannot see. It doesn't
1:07:36make sense to continue wanting something
1:07:37if you're not willing to do what it
1:07:39takes to get it. If you don't want to
1:07:41live the lifestyle, then release
1:07:42yourself from the desire. to crave the
1:07:45results but not the process is to
1:07:46guarantee disappointment. You only envy
1:07:49the lives of people whose sacrifices you
1:07:51cannot see.
1:07:52>> Yeah, I love Jimmy Carrs. Um, people
1:07:55want what you have but not what you did
1:07:57to get it. It's just so good. You know,
1:07:59I I I think the first time I heard that
1:08:01I was like, [ __ ] I wish I had written
1:08:02that.
1:08:02>> I was on this pod.
1:08:03>> Yeah. [laughter]
1:08:04>> So good.
1:08:04>> I wish I'd written that. Um, but yeah,
1:08:07and I think I think part of it is just
1:08:09like it goes back to what we started
1:08:10with around trades is like they're just
1:08:14price tags and you can totally say that
1:08:17something costs too much. Like that is
1:08:20good. Like those shoes are nice. They're
1:08:22not worth a billion dollars
1:08:24>> or whatever that relative. Yeah. To me.
1:08:26>> And so I think that being able to say
1:08:28like I think it is okay to say something
1:08:30is both good and not worth it.
1:08:33>> And people have a hard time with that.
1:08:34So they say it must be bad because I'm
1:08:36not willing to pay the price for it. But
1:08:38it's like they might be great shoes.
1:08:39They might not be worth it for you, but
1:08:41they're still good shoes.
1:08:42>> I think what particularly hurts is when
1:08:44you as a person who's put a lot of
1:08:46effort in, see the price that you paid
1:08:47to acquire a skill
1:08:49>> and it appears to be dismissed by
1:08:51somebody that doesn't understand it.
1:08:52>> Or when you buy the shoes and then
1:08:54someone says, "I can't believe you
1:08:55bought those shoes. There's no way I
1:08:57would ever do that." And you're like, "I
1:08:58know you would never do that. That's why
1:09:00you don't have them." And it's okay that
1:09:02you don't have them either. I'm not
1:09:04saying that as a judgment on you. It's
1:09:05like you don't have the shoes. I do. I
1:09:08thought they were worth it. You didn't.
1:09:10And guess what? We both are different
1:09:11people who live different lives. And so,
1:09:12we have stated the obvious.
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1:10:15Avoiding people who make it harder for
1:10:16you to achieve your goals is the highest
1:10:18form of self-care. The fastest way to
1:10:21change your life is to get around people
1:10:23whose minimum standards are your life
1:10:24goals. It's like I violently agree with
1:10:26both of these statements that I wrote.
1:10:28[laughter]
1:10:30>> I agree with me.
1:10:32>> Um it'd be great if you didn't agree
1:10:34with you. [laughter] If I was like
1:10:36whoever wrote that is a [ __ ] idiot.
1:10:38Um,
1:10:40this is at the heart of the And I I was
1:10:42I wrote that um right in the thick of my
1:10:47thinking around malicious goodwill
1:10:50or sorry um uh malicious benefit and uh
1:10:53and well-intentioned uh harm
1:10:56>> was just um I think I had some people
1:10:58around me at that time that had had done
1:11:00me harm and had said but I didn't mean
1:11:02to. Um, you know, I had good intentions.
1:11:06And if you're telling that as the person
1:11:09who was texting and driving to the wife
1:11:11of the person whose husband you killed,
1:11:13um, I don't think I think they are
1:11:16justified in not caring.
1:11:19And I think that if that person who
1:11:22continues to drive while texting
1:11:24afterwards because they lack the skill
1:11:26to not drive without texting and
1:11:28continues to run over your spouse or
1:11:30whatever, um, you are justified in
1:11:34removing them from your life despite
1:11:36their good intention. And I just think
1:11:38intention is desired result, which is
1:11:40like if I my intention was this, this is
1:11:42what I wanted to have happen. And it
1:11:44it's literally just a lack of
1:11:46competence. Incompetence is incredibly
1:11:49rare. So it makes sense to remove many
1:11:51people who are not competent at helping
1:11:53you either
1:11:54>> intentioned but incompetent.
1:11:55>> Yeah. And so I think that's why being
1:11:57really clear about like hey if you do
1:11:58this this would help me this decreases
1:12:00my risk of failure that would be helpful
1:12:02for me. Um makes serving and I say that
1:12:05like serving you as a friend or as a
1:12:07spouse or as a whatever. Um it g you
1:12:11give people the tools to help you and I
1:12:13think that you should totally do that.
1:12:15If some if you give someone the tools um
1:12:18and then they choose not to help you,
1:12:19then I think you were also justified or
1:12:21it would be it would be rational for you
1:12:24if you value your goals more than you
1:12:26value the relationship
1:12:27>> to sacrifice the relationship for the
1:12:29goal. And again, we would say which one
1:12:30you love more by the one that you're
1:12:32willing to give up.
1:12:36The harshest truth every young man must
1:12:38eventually learn is that everyone was
1:12:40always rooting for you. Your parents
1:12:42want you to be a great son. Your wife
1:12:44wants you to be a great husband. Your
1:12:46boss wants you to be a slam dunk hire.
1:12:48Every first date you've ever been on,
1:12:50they've been rooting for you to get
1:12:51laid. Every time you started to tell a
1:12:54joke, people hoped it would have a
1:12:55hilarious punchline. Your proximity to
1:12:57anyone is a reflection of themselves,
1:12:59meaning the deck is never stacked
1:13:01against you, and your failures are
1:13:03completely your own. Denzel Rust, I was
1:13:07like, who wrote that one? Um,
1:13:16it's all your fault. No one's coming to
1:13:18save you.
1:13:20Sacrifice who you are. But people aren't
1:13:22against you, especially the people that
1:13:24are in proximity to you. People's
1:13:26proximity to you is a reflection of
1:13:27themselves. We hang around with people
1:13:29who we want to be like and who we want
1:13:33to win so that we can be in the
1:13:35collective glory of it. So this is where
1:13:38the worldview I think is is super
1:13:39important for me at least which is like
1:13:41we hang around people who who've
1:13:42rewarded us for being around them.
1:13:44>> So either they've remove stuff that we
1:13:45hate or they um give us stuff that we
1:13:48like. And I think where it becomes
1:13:50difficult is where you have competing
1:13:52priorities where you have multiple
1:13:53things that you like and you want to
1:13:55shift. It's where you begin to change.
1:13:57Basically your motivating factors start
1:13:59to change but your environment hasn't.
1:14:01And so what was once reinforcing for you
1:14:03or was once rewarding no longer is as
1:14:06much.
1:14:07>> And so this is where people feel this
1:14:08tension between desired of like this is
1:14:10the life I want to live versus the life
1:14:11that I have.
1:14:12>> Trade-offs.
1:14:13>> Yeah.
1:14:14>> I mean I could I've I've given a
1:14:16tremendous amount of thought to
1:14:17trade-offs and I really think it comes
1:14:18down to that is that people are just
1:14:19unwilling to make trades.
1:14:26Why?
1:14:31Experientially, why? Because we want
1:14:34everything.
1:14:36And when we get everything we wanted, we
1:14:39no longer want it because we have it.
1:14:43And I think there's this amazing
1:14:44comedian, I think his name's Kanan. I'm
1:14:46going to mess it up, but he says he has
1:14:47this awesome bit on this. It's like more
1:14:50philosophy than comedy. And he says,
1:14:52"All the joy is in the getting." He's
1:14:53like, "But once you get it, you just
1:14:55have it." He's like, "And getting so
1:14:58much better than having." He's like,
1:15:00"But the only thing worse than having is
1:15:02losing." And then you lose and all you
1:15:04want is to have it again.
1:15:06Um it's like a two-minute bit. And and
1:15:09he's like, "You know, you don't you
1:15:10don't get kids, you have kids." And he's
1:15:12like, "You are have. And that is why you
1:15:16will never be satisfied." [laughter] Ah,
1:15:19but yeah, you only either live in the
1:15:20desire or in the have. And the have is
1:15:22unsatisfactory. And the desire is always
1:15:24compelling and out of reach.
1:15:26>> Leila um has been talking to me about
1:15:28this more recently where she's like, you
1:15:30know, the things that that make you us,
1:15:33etc. Like very good at business is
1:15:35always seeing where things could be
1:15:37better, where things could be improved.
1:15:40And it's this incredibly, you said
1:15:43earlier, these habits that have been
1:15:45reinforced, these grooves of behavior
1:15:47that lots of water has run through,
1:15:49right? Um, and being able to live life
1:15:53with two modes, I find incredibly
1:15:55difficult, which is like
1:15:58all I am in one part of my life is
1:16:00dissatisfied. and seeing the
1:16:02imperfections in what we do.
1:16:05>> And then the key to satisfaction of life
1:16:08is saying everything is great [laughter]
1:16:10or rather I accept everything as it is
1:16:12and I do not wish to change it. Um and I
1:16:14think that conflict is I would just say
1:16:16just one that I I not conquered just one
1:16:18that I
1:16:19>> that line about problem to be managed
1:16:21not paradox to be solved.
1:16:22>> Yeah. Dicho. Yeah. Exactly. It's a it's
1:16:24a problem to be managed not a dichotomy
1:16:26to be solved. Yeah.
1:16:29Yeah. I I I don't and I think many of
1:16:30these things like there there is no uh
1:16:32oh number 42 that's the answer like that
1:16:34is the answer to this. I think that we
1:16:36just we do the best we can and I think
1:16:37again to the question that the started
1:16:39with with just why do people have such a
1:16:40hard time with trade-offs? Um which is
1:16:43that the trades
1:16:46we don't want to make the trade.
1:16:49We want to be able to date everyone and
1:16:52have the benefits of a committed
1:16:53relationship. And when you begin to walk
1:16:56down one of those paths and see the
1:16:57other one start fading into the
1:16:58distance, people have an emotional
1:17:00reaction and then they change course and
1:17:01then they flip-flop back and forth
1:17:02between these two things. But then they
1:17:04never actually get to realize any of
1:17:05them because loss is more painful than
1:17:07gain.
1:17:08>> If you lose 5, it is more painful than
1:17:13finding 5. [laughter] And that means
1:17:16that you're always going to try and
1:17:18avoid loss as opposed to expedite gain
1:17:21even if you would be happier by doing
1:17:23that because the pain of the loss is
1:17:25always going to be felt more more
1:17:27>> and probably short-term long term as
1:17:29well.
1:17:29>> Yeah. Bill Perkins has got this line. He
1:17:31says people will endure years of misery
1:17:34to avoid a couple of minutes of pain.
1:17:37>> Oh my god. Yes. Incredibly true.
1:17:41[sighs]
1:17:43>> [snorts]
1:17:43>> And again, if we think about motivation,
1:17:45it's just that that that short-term pain
1:17:47is always immediate. And so it auto
1:17:49always motivates you not to do it.
1:17:51>> So you always you have many motivating
1:17:53operations that are that are working on
1:17:54us at any any given moment.
1:17:56>> And so even though something is
1:17:58short-term, like even it's funny cuz
1:18:00like many people obviously there's some
1:18:04people who just love going to the gym,
1:18:06>> there are significantly more people who
1:18:07don't love going to the gym the moment
1:18:08they get to the gym. Then you warm up
1:18:10then all of a sudden you feel good
1:18:10again, right? there's this this period
1:18:12where you're like I don't necessarily
1:18:13want to go right now. And so you have a
1:18:15motivating operation at all times that
1:18:18is working against your your best wishes
1:18:20or you know your best desires.
1:18:22>> And our goal of motivating ourselves is
1:18:25to tell ourselves those stories so that
1:18:28in the short term we can overcome the
1:18:30short-term discomfort so that we can get
1:18:31the long-term benefit that we ultimately
1:18:32want that we know we want but we're
1:18:34reminded and the first time you work out
1:18:36it only looks like pain. And then we
1:18:38model, we look at somebody else who's
1:18:40already done it for a long time and say,
1:18:41"Well, I want that." And so we model
1:18:42that and we borrow that credibility,
1:18:44that outcome of the penguin that jumps
1:18:46off the cliff, like I want the fish,
1:18:48>> so I guess I'll try and do that. And
1:18:50then after that, the the loop takes
1:18:52over.
1:18:53>> It's like hyperbolic accounting rather
1:18:54than hyperbolic discounting.
1:18:56>> Mhm. And it happens both ways. So like
1:18:58for example, if I'm if I want to set an
1:19:01alarm, right? If I set an alarm at 5:00
1:19:03for the night before for 4:00 in the
1:19:05morning, I'm going to wake up super
1:19:06early and I'm going to do all this [ __ ]
1:19:07right? We get the benefit of the idea of
1:19:11our productivity when we set the alarm,
1:19:14but the cost is discounted because it's
1:19:16in the future.
1:19:17>> But when we have to pay the cost, it's
1:19:19immediate. And so the benefit of hitting
1:19:21the snooze button is immediate. And the
1:19:23cost of getting up is also immediate.
1:19:25And so we hit the snooze button. And so
1:19:27it's like it that that I feel like that
1:19:29is the microcosm of humanity of setting
1:19:31setting an alarm 12 hours before or 8
1:19:33hours before you're supposed to wake up
1:19:35and being like super jacked about it
1:19:37because you only get the benefit and
1:19:38there's no price attached to it. But
1:19:40then in the moment that you have to make
1:19:41the trade all of a sudden you your
1:19:42priorities change because the
1:19:43motivations have changed.
1:19:45>> Yeah. And the long-term benefit of what
1:19:47will happen to your life if you become
1:19:48the sort of person who gets up early is
1:19:50also in future.
1:19:51>> Mhm. And if you do it a few times in a
1:19:53row, then you tell yourself, I am the
1:19:54type of person who does this. And then
1:19:55that becomes a second operating
1:19:57operation which can help you overcome
1:19:59the short term. Like I'm a big believer
1:20:01in um in I am statements as motivating
1:20:04operations, meaning like I am this type
1:20:06of person. Um I tend to be really
1:20:09hesitant to say I am statements because
1:20:10I believe they're very powerful in terms
1:20:11of changing behavior. Um but it's also
1:20:13something that I feel like I listen to a
1:20:15lot when I'm talking to other people
1:20:16like what I mean this happens a lot
1:20:17especially in dating. The thing about
1:20:19first date, second dates. Um, people
1:20:21were like, "Well, I'm a like in in in
1:20:23the first meeting, they'll give you like
1:20:2420 I ams." Like, "I'm a I'm a neat
1:20:26freak. I'm a blah blah blah." Like, they
1:20:28just give you, "Okay, here's my lattice
1:20:29work of my beliefs about myself."
1:20:31>> Um, when in reality, all of these things
1:20:34are just shortorthhand for a number of
1:20:36behaviors underneath it. They're saying,
1:20:37"I'm a great at basketball and I'm also
1:20:38great at swimming." And you're like,
1:20:38"Whoa, there's so much here." Um, but
1:20:41where it gets difficult is when um you
1:20:43need to stop dribbling and start
1:20:44passing, but you said, "I'm great at
1:20:45basketball, but I'm supposed to do both,
1:20:46but I actually need to change only one
1:20:47of them." And that's where people get
1:20:49into these really hard times. Which is
1:20:50why I think defining everything into the
1:20:51granular and then moving it back up. But
1:20:53being able to go clouds to dirt on these
1:20:56definitions of behavior allow you to
1:20:58change who you are much more fluidly
1:21:01because you you understand that the
1:21:04label is actually just that. It's just
1:21:06shortorthhand. It's not reality. It's
1:21:09just a bucket to make communication
1:21:10easier. If I
1:21:11>> I can't be bothered to describe all of
1:21:13the things that this particular term
1:21:14means.
1:21:14>> And it would be unreasonable if I had to
1:21:16say he's a good basketball player. But
1:21:17instead of saying that, I'm like, "Oh my
1:21:18god, he's really good at at taking his
1:21:19right foot and putting in front like it
1:21:20would it would it would be ridiculous."
1:21:22But you have to understand at that level
1:21:24in order to communicate really clearly
1:21:25in my opinion.
1:21:26>> Yeah.
1:21:27>> This tension between excellence and
1:21:30satisfaction
1:21:31>> is an interesting one. I had this line
1:21:33this year which was what you are praised
1:21:35for in public you will pay for in
1:21:37private. M a lot of the time the things
1:21:40that make you fantastic operator when it
1:21:43comes to business and your career often
1:21:46can be
1:21:48totally unadaptive maladaptive when it
1:21:51comes to the kitchen table competing
1:21:53priorities
1:21:55and I like this is this is such a this
1:21:57is one that I I think I think a lot
1:21:59about this um because there is a
1:22:02priority there is one that you want more
1:22:05and I think people have a lot of trouble
1:22:06with that. This is why people who are
1:22:08monomomaniacal often get so much further
1:22:10than people that don't because even just
1:22:12the thinking cost of managing navigating
1:22:14the trade-offs.
1:22:15>> Yeah.
1:22:16>> That's why someone asked me
1:22:21basically how how monomomaniacally
1:22:23should I go after my career and I said
1:22:25well it depends on what phase you're in.
1:22:28Uh, but I think it is almost impossible
1:22:30to make a big swing, make big progress
1:22:34in your life without going complete
1:22:37sicko mode for an extended period of
1:22:39time.
1:22:39>> Yeah, it's about 10 years.
1:22:40>> Yeah.
1:22:40>> I mean, I've just I think it's it's like
1:22:42about 10 years
1:22:43>> of just going um
1:22:44>> I'm not going to compromise.
1:22:46>> Yeah, it's no compromises. It's no,
1:22:51there's this um episode in in Breaking
1:22:54Bad and the title was I think no half
1:22:56measures and I think it was about
1:22:59whether you punish someone or kill them.
1:23:00But that was
1:23:02but I remember watching that episode and
1:23:04the the line stuck with me a lot like no
1:23:06half measures either do or don't. And I
1:23:10think that
1:23:15half measures yield null outcomes. Yeah.
1:23:19It's not that you get half results.
1:23:20>> Yeah. And so what many people are
1:23:23plagued by is they are doing half
1:23:25measures in four domains and have
1:23:27yielded none. And they feel like they
1:23:30are trying all the time. They're working
1:23:33every hour that they're awake to pursue
1:23:35or serve four different masters. And
1:23:38it's the realization that
1:23:41compromise on one means getting neither.
1:23:45And I think that people have a hard time
1:23:47with that because they're unwilling to
1:23:49say, I I I want one thing more than
1:23:51another. And I think you just have to be
1:23:53able to say like, I'm willing to
1:23:54sacrifice
1:23:56this thing, not forever, but for now.
1:23:59Obligation, because of anchoring bias,
1:24:02because of the momentum of where you are
1:24:04now, because of the fear of regretting
1:24:06it.
1:24:07This is where
1:24:11this is where the inaction thing comes
1:24:14back in. People
1:24:17think that in action has no cost, but it
1:24:19it does have a cost.
1:24:21>> Usually it's higher
1:24:25like um
1:24:28it's like money loves speed, wealth
1:24:31loves time, poverty loves indecision. Uh
1:24:38and if you think about in action
1:24:42as an action we are we are always doing
1:24:46something. Even if you were watching
1:24:47television you are taking an action.
1:24:50It's just not make it's not making any
1:24:52progress. Well maybe you're making
1:24:53progress in a show. Maybe you're making
1:24:55progress in your in your relaxation.
1:24:57Maybe your resting heart rate drops.
1:24:58Like you like things are always
1:25:00occurring. Um, and I think it's just
1:25:02whether we are
1:25:04voting with our behavior about the
1:25:08outcome that we truly want. And most of
1:25:11the outcomes that we truly want happen
1:25:12at a delay, which is what makes them
1:25:14worth wanting.
1:25:16>> But also makes them equally hard to get.
1:25:20Don't listen to other people's opinions.
1:25:22Friendly reminder that most people are
1:25:24fat, poor pansies, and don't listen to
1:25:26them when they try to deter you from
1:25:28whatever it takes to succeed. The
1:25:30average person will always try to keep
1:25:31you average. It makes sense that if you
1:25:33want to be extraordinary, you will do
1:25:35things that an ordinary person would see
1:25:37as extra. This is the really hard part
1:25:40that I had to come to terms with. It's
1:25:42that a lot of people want to see you
1:25:44fail because it justifies the risks that
1:25:46they chose not to take. We always have
1:25:48to think about listening to the people
1:25:50who are closest to our goals, not
1:25:52closest to us.
1:25:59We yearn for the approval
1:26:04of
1:26:05many people
1:26:08who don't have lives that we want.
1:26:12And so if they have a specific life,
1:26:16then it means that that is what they
1:26:20think is valuable. And if we don't want
1:26:23what they have,
1:26:25then why would we value their weight on
1:26:29our decisions?
1:26:31>> And so it's like you have this, they're
1:26:32like, we have this mold that is my life.
1:26:35Your life no longer fits my mold. And
1:26:38you're like, right, I don't like the pot
1:26:39that that mold makes. And so somehow
1:26:42when people state the obvious, which is
1:26:44that you were living your life against
1:26:45my preferences,
1:26:48we somehow feel like that needs to
1:26:50change because when we're younger and
1:26:52growing up,
1:26:53>> we can't leave.
1:26:54>> Yeah. You can't leave and you do need to
1:26:56live your life according to your
1:26:57parents' preferences, your teachers
1:26:58preferences, your classmates's
1:26:59preferences, your principal's
1:27:00preferences. Um, but when you get older,
1:27:03you do have to break the mold and decide
1:27:05what mold you want. And in so doing, you
1:27:08will be against their preferences. is
1:27:10and if the vast majority of people have
1:27:12a life that you don't want, then you're
1:27:14going to do things that the vast
1:27:15majority of people don't agree with.
1:27:16>> Mhm. I think the average American adult
1:27:19is obese, likely to be divorced, and has
1:27:21less than 1K in the bank. And doing what
1:27:23everybody else does sounds like a great
1:27:27idea, but it's actually a reliable route
1:27:28to a life that you're probably not
1:27:29looking for.
1:27:31[gasps]
1:27:35This is I feel very passionately about
1:27:39this particular topic because
1:27:43it means that the path to exceptionalism
1:27:46is lonely
1:27:49and loneliness is something that we
1:27:54decry as a society that there's
1:27:56something wrong with it. There's
1:27:57something bad. There's something wrong
1:27:59with you.
1:28:00If many people disagree with you, but
1:28:04this is but success and pursuit of large
1:28:07endeavors is one of those few domains
1:28:09where
1:28:12everyone disagreeing with you is a
1:28:14signal that you are actually
1:28:17doing something different. Now,
1:28:20sometimes you doing something different
1:28:23is the wrong move. I think um Larry
1:28:26Ellison said this. He said, uh,
1:28:30if everyone thinks your idea is stupid,
1:28:33either
1:28:34they're right or you're right.
1:28:38>> And if you're right, then you're likely
1:28:40to make a lot of money. I'm loosely
1:28:42paraphrasing, but basically, it's like
1:28:43we have to be willing to do exceptional
1:28:46things in isolation
1:28:48and deal with the pain of rejection. Um,
1:28:52and some of rejection isn't people
1:28:53saying, "No, I don't want to buy from
1:28:54Some of rejection is people just
1:28:56rejecting your behavior, rejecting who
1:28:57you're becoming, rejecting the choices
1:28:59that you're making.
1:29:00>> Um, and I think that rejection often
1:29:01times is harder because it often
1:29:02surfaces as snide remarks,
1:29:05>> jokes that are demeaning, that have a
1:29:07little bit too much edge to them, like a
1:29:09little bit too much truth, or even just
1:29:11being excluded. A more silent version of
1:29:13that, not commission, but omission. Oh,
1:29:15we won't invite them out. Oh, you you
1:29:17you turned up to squash practice. I
1:29:19didn't know it was on. I just thought
1:29:20that I don't know. Do you guys not tell
1:29:21me? Oh, yeah. Well, all right. Come on.
1:29:23Join. Yeah, this those moments and I
1:29:26think those moments are very painful.
1:29:28Um, but you you trade those moments for
1:29:33the many moments when you're at home
1:29:36alone
1:29:38looking at your life around you and
1:29:40saying this is not what I want.
1:29:42>> I don't want to be here.
1:29:43>> Right? I don't want to be here. I don't
1:29:45want to be who I am
1:29:46>> and I don't want to be there with them
1:29:47either.
1:29:47>> Right? And so it's no man's land. Um,
1:29:50and I think that that is like the
1:29:52beginning of the metamorphosis, the
1:29:54beginning of the transformation.
1:29:54>> It's the single most powerful idea that
1:29:56me and you have come up with, the lonely
1:29:57chapter by far. By far. And I think the
1:29:59reason that it speaks to people is that
1:30:02the amount of doubt that you have to
1:30:04endure when doing this for the first
1:30:07time when nobody around you understands
1:30:08what you're trying to do. When you're
1:30:10actively being discouraged from making
1:30:11changes and you have no promise of glory
1:30:13or success on the other side of it is
1:30:16one of the most perfect cocktails of
1:30:19pain and discomfort that you can go
1:30:22through. And this happens on every
1:30:24mountain. So it happens on your first
1:30:26mountain and it happens on your second
1:30:27mountain. Like if you are you've
1:30:29achieved some level of success that
1:30:30everyone around you deems as successful
1:30:32enough by their standards not yours when
1:30:34you pursue the next summit they then all
1:30:38of it begins again the machine begins
1:30:40again. I actually think that for a lot
1:30:42of people the first big lonely chapter
1:30:46that they will feel will be after their
1:30:47first success because for a lot of
1:30:49people the first success is done within
1:30:51the frame that they're already inside
1:30:53of. They get to the top of it and
1:30:55realize it wasn't what they wanted. And
1:30:57then some people decide to go back down.
1:30:59Uh maybe some people don't need to go up
1:31:03the first mountain to realize they're
1:31:04somewhere they don't want to be. But for
1:31:05a lot of people, especially people that
1:31:07are driven and and pushed toward
1:31:08excellence, I think they actually have
1:31:09to get there within this was my story,
1:31:12right? getting
1:31:14one of the biggest events companies in
1:31:16the UK running an organization that is
1:31:19cool and fun and I got to define and I
1:31:22was the boss and everybody knew me and
1:31:24there's some wealth and some status and
1:31:25some freedom and there's girls.
1:31:27[sighs and gasps]
1:31:30Everybody's telling me that this is
1:31:31something that I should be happy about
1:31:33and satisfied with and for some reason
1:31:35it didn't feel right. And the only way
1:31:39to try and find something new is to let
1:31:41go of something that everybody else is
1:31:43telling you is something that you should
1:31:45want
1:31:47local maximums.
1:31:49And it's like the furthest up they can
1:31:51see up the mountain. And then when you
1:31:52get to that new local maximum, you have
1:31:54a different perception than they do. And
1:31:55you can see the next peak and they
1:31:57can't. And
1:31:58>> some people don't need to go up the
1:31:59peak, but I think a lot of people do.
1:32:01>> Yeah. I um
1:32:02>> I wonder if those are different types of
1:32:03lonely chapter. Wonder if there's a
1:32:05different type of a lonely chapter of of
1:32:07letting go. I I I've kind of been hold
1:32:09that thought. I I just I really wanted
1:32:11to talk to you about the difference
1:32:12between having fallen off and having
1:32:14never made it
1:32:16>> and having fallen off a lot of the time
1:32:18is somebody going from one local maxima
1:32:21to another local maxima that's higher or
1:32:23to a global maxima. Like sure, some
1:32:25fall-offs occur not through choice, but
1:32:28that evolution might be somebody going,
1:32:30"My priorities have changed."
1:32:32>> Mhm.
1:32:32>> And you are judging me on the scorecard
1:32:34of the game that I used to play.
1:32:37I'm not bothered about that anymore.
1:32:39>> Oh, that guy fell off.
1:32:42>> And I have two two completely different
1:32:45thoughts about this. Um,
1:32:47one is short and then I'll I'll make the
1:32:49longer one. Um, I realized when I was I
1:32:52was writing something a while ago, um,
1:32:55that
1:32:57when you haven't when you have no
1:32:59evidence or no proof that you're going
1:33:01to be successful, everyone will ask why
1:33:02you're working so hard and then once you
1:33:05win, everyone asks why you're working so
1:33:07hard.
1:33:08>> Mhm. [clears throat]
1:33:08>> You know, that was the Mark Manson one
1:33:10that he said, "We'll tell you how lucky
1:33:12you are." Oh,
1:33:13>> and you liked the idea of
1:33:16>> No, they just ask you again why you're
1:33:17working so hard. Yeah. [laughter] Yeah.
1:33:19Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And
1:33:20>> it was a funny remix.
1:33:21>> Yeah. And um and it was just a
1:33:24realization that people were literally
1:33:25always going to ask me why I was working
1:33:27so hard or why you were working so hard
1:33:28and why are you pursuing your goals?
1:33:29Because they're saying that your goals
1:33:31are not the goals that I would pursue.
1:33:32And to which you would respond, yes.
1:33:35The second thing was um I was I was
1:33:39talking to an entrepreneur, really
1:33:40successful, and they were saying, "Hey,
1:33:42I really want um I want to dominate my
1:33:44market. I want to put everyone else out
1:33:46of business, blah blah blah blah." And
1:33:48I, as somebody who has put people out of
1:33:51business, um I will say that
1:33:54it doesn't come with parades and it
1:33:56doesn't come with balloons and it's not
1:33:58Goliath versus Goliath because by the
1:34:00time you actually beat them into true
1:34:02submission, it's really like a giant
1:34:03beating a child
1:34:05>> because it's almost never a true fair
1:34:07fight and there are no rules and there
1:34:10is no referee and no one determines you
1:34:12the winner. And so what ends up
1:34:13happening is you get bigger and bigger
1:34:16and bigger and then they shrink into
1:34:17irrelevance and then you see a Facebook
1:34:19post that says that they've changed
1:34:20their goals and that they actually
1:34:21determine that this isn't as important
1:34:22to them as it once was.
1:34:24>> And I think that one that's okay.
1:34:27Um two, it's not satisfying at all.
1:34:31three, when you see the jobs and the
1:34:33employees that actually worked at the
1:34:35company that were just, you know, living
1:34:37their lives and have kids and all of a
1:34:39sudden like this idea of this conquest
1:34:41that you're going to beat someone feels
1:34:43significantly less rewarding.
1:34:46>> Um,
1:34:47>> that's glorious.
1:34:48>> 100%.
1:34:49And
1:34:52I used to I used to joke that when
1:34:55losers lose, they change their goals
1:34:57rather than say they lost.
1:35:00And
1:35:02I think it's more that they might have
1:35:04at some point while they began to lose.
1:35:08Maybe it's the first quarter or the
1:35:09second quarter of their game, they're
1:35:10down by a few points. They might have
1:35:12some awareness of what it would take in
1:35:14order to win, but they determined at
1:35:16that point that the trade was no longer
1:35:18worth it.
1:35:19>> And I think that that's okay. And I
1:35:21would say that that has that is a shift
1:35:22that I've had personally is that if
1:35:25someone no longer determines that the
1:35:27price is worth it, then amazing. they've
1:35:29made a they've made a conscious
1:35:30decision. What I what I I would say I
1:35:33advocate against is having that decision
1:35:35made for you because you weren't
1:35:37conscious of the decision being made to
1:35:38begin with
1:35:39>> and then just basically accepting it.
1:35:41>> Can vengeance be deranging in that way?
1:35:43Then
1:35:44>> say it again.
1:35:45>> Can vengeance be deranging?
1:35:46>> Uh for whom?
1:35:47>> The desire to get one over on this
1:35:50person. It compels you to act in a way
1:35:53which is being
1:35:56puppeted by them in a very odd way.
1:35:59>> Yeah. They control you.
1:36:00>> Yeah. The the person that you're trying
1:36:02to beat has
1:36:06cajol you and tempted you into doing
1:36:08something that isn't necessarily in your
1:36:10interests. And then when you do reach
1:36:12the finish line, they're never going to
1:36:14say, "Well played, man. Fair fight."
1:36:16Yeah. Exactly. No one else knows. It's
1:36:19it's largely just this silent war
1:36:21between you and your projection of them.
1:36:25>> And and to be clear, like I I think that
1:36:27vengeance and revenge can be incredibly
1:36:29motivating. And if if the only fuel that
1:36:33you have is that to get what you want,
1:36:36then use what you have. But I think that
1:36:41the the outcome of it of beating a
1:36:44specific person is not nearly as
1:36:46fulfilling as you think it will be.
1:36:48But if along the way you can create good
1:36:52from it, then I think that there's some
1:36:55reconciliation of pros and cons that
1:36:57happens of like good stuff happened, bad
1:36:59stuff happened, and is there more good
1:37:00than bad? Um that we sum up at the end
1:37:04of our lives. But I find it interesting
1:37:05when I think about when I look at like
1:37:07the oldest, you know, the old wise men
1:37:09that I that I pay attention to or that I
1:37:12read their dead books or they're dead,
1:37:13the books are alive. Um, it is
1:37:16interesting how how much they talk about
1:37:17like the folly of youth and how how how
1:37:19much we value things that never really
1:37:21mattered to begin with.
1:37:22>> Um, and how and I I try to think like
1:37:25what is that guy going to say about what
1:37:26I'm currently doing and will he approve
1:37:28of it? Um,
1:37:29>> and I don't I mean to be clear like I
1:37:31always have the answer, but I think it
1:37:33it takes the edge off both sides. Uh, on
1:37:36the downside if you do you know have
1:37:38your losses it's like well this this is
1:37:40okay. M
1:37:41>> um and on the upside when you do have
1:37:43your wins you're like I'm not that
1:37:45important.
1:37:46>> A lot of this feels to be about the
1:37:47expansion of time being able to see
1:37:49things on a broader time horizon. Is
1:37:51that fair?
1:37:56Time and space. I think those are the
1:37:58two things that can shrink or expand
1:38:00anything, right? And so like if you zoom
1:38:02in the the the atoms of this table
1:38:04versus zooming all the way out to the
1:38:06cosmos all of a sudden you know whether
1:38:07two monkeys are having a podcast that
1:38:09they're recording matters significantly
1:38:10less. And also when we think about the
1:38:12billions of podcasts that get recorded
1:38:14over the next however many years it it
1:38:16shrinks it. Um but in this exact moment
1:38:18this becomes the most important thing
1:38:20that I'm focused on right now. So, um, I
1:38:22think playing with time and space as
1:38:24ways to cope with hardship is one of the
1:38:28most viable tools that you can have in
1:38:30terms of getting through
1:38:31>> to zoom into enjoyment, zoom out of
1:38:33difficulty,
1:38:34>> pain. Yeah,
1:38:37>> you can get competent at nearly anything
1:38:39in 20 hours. The problem is most people
1:38:42spend a decade delaying the first 20
1:38:44hours. More potential is wasted through
1:38:46in action than incompetence.
1:38:49I saw a TED talk years ago where a guy
1:38:51talked about how he learned how to play
1:38:52the guitar in 20 hours. And that TED
1:38:55talk changed my life. Not because I
1:38:57learned to play the guitar, but all of a
1:38:58sudden [gasps]
1:39:00complex tasks or seemingly complex tasks
1:39:05felt incre much
1:39:08much more attainable. I was like, okay,
1:39:10I might not be the best website
1:39:11developer in the world, but in 20 hours
1:39:12I can have a website. And that 20our
1:39:16mantra for me has just been like two
1:39:17days, two full days, two 10-hour days
1:39:20fully focused, you can pretty much go
1:39:21from zero to not hero, but zero to
1:39:24competent. Um, and when you string
1:39:28hundreds of those 20our days together, I
1:39:30think you become incredibly dangerous.
1:39:32We were talking earlier about range the
1:39:34book. I think being cross-dep
1:39:37departmental being cross um what's the
1:39:40multi-disiplinary
1:39:41>> thank you disciplinary multi-disiplinary
1:39:44is is is
1:39:48hard to calculate how valuable it is
1:39:50because of the because the the first 20
1:39:53hours of almost every discipline is
1:39:54probably the biggest most meaningful
1:39:56concepts from that
1:39:57>> from not being able to ride a bike to
1:39:58being able to ride a bike
1:39:59>> yes being able to not read to read um
1:40:02even if you can't read Shakespeare but
1:40:04you can read all of a sudden like 80%
1:40:06>> the world of Shakespeare is now opened
1:40:07up to you. It's just a matter of time
1:40:08before you get there.
1:40:09>> Yeah. And even if you could never read
1:40:11Shakespeare, the 80% of the books that
1:40:12you can read as a result of a sixth
1:40:14grade reading level is basically more
1:40:16books than you have time to read. Um and
1:40:19you will get the largest returns from
1:40:21those first 20 hours. And so there's a
1:40:22very strong argument for trying to
1:40:24collapse the time between uh wanting
1:40:26something and beginning those first 20
1:40:28hours. And because the the 8020 of your
1:40:31of the skills you gain that are that
1:40:34have utility like that your usefulness
1:40:36across a huge amount of domains is
1:40:39multiplicative not additive. So I I I've
1:40:42said this example before but like you
1:40:44know Jay-Z in the very beginning it's
1:40:46like he might have had some rhythm or
1:40:47something and then all of a sudden he
1:40:49you know learned how to rap and then he
1:40:51learned how to sell. Now some people say
1:40:52maybe was sold earlier than that but
1:40:54I'll just leave it there. He learned how
1:40:55to sell and then all of a sudden he
1:40:56learned how to market. And with each of
1:40:57these additional skills, his income
1:40:59didn't go up by like, oh, 1 plus 1
1:41:01equals 2. It went, you know, one, well,
1:41:04one's a bad number. So 2 to the 10th
1:41:06power all of a sudden becomes
1:41:07significantly greater um than what you
1:41:10can do. And so when
1:41:12when unsure about what step like when
1:41:16you're not sure what to do,
1:41:20[gasps]
1:41:22build potential
1:41:24because when the opportunity does come,
1:41:28you want to be ready. And so it does
1:41:30make sense in the beginning of your
1:41:32career to maximize optionality. It's
1:41:34just that you have to be willing to
1:41:35trade it in. And so when you're not sure
1:41:37what to do, the logical thing to do is I
1:41:39don't know what I'm going to do
1:41:40tomorrow, but I'm going to get a good
1:41:41night's sleep. I don't know when I'm
1:41:42going to meet a mate, but I'm going to
1:41:43start getting in shape now. I don't know
1:41:45what I'm going to sell, but I'm going to
1:41:46start building an audience and making
1:41:47content. There's always an argument for
1:41:49like you if you don't know what to do,
1:41:50there's still plenty of things to do.
1:41:52And but the goal is not necessarily to
1:41:54do those things forever. It's to do
1:41:55those things to then use them as the
1:41:57launch pad to get the thing you really
1:41:58want. The trap is opening up so much
1:42:01optionality without the concordant
1:42:04decisiveness that you end up being
1:42:06trapped.
1:42:07>> Yeah.
1:42:08>> You end up being stuck because you
1:42:09think, I've got all of these directions
1:42:11that I could go in. I've spent all of
1:42:13this time building up
1:42:15uh paniply
1:42:18>> of roots that I could take my life down
1:42:21>> and I do not have any ability to decide
1:42:23on which of those to take.
1:42:24>> Paniply.
1:42:25>> Paniply. You like that?
1:42:26>> Myriad. Cornucopia. plethora.
1:42:28>> Yeah. Yeah. [laughter]
1:42:31>> Two people that are obsessed with
1:42:32language have have a war with each
1:42:34other. [laughter]
1:42:35>> But one is British, so he wins.
1:42:39You only need to get rich once, so you
1:42:41might as well work as hard as you can to
1:42:43get it done as fast as you can. The
1:42:44fastest way to attract what you want in
1:42:46life is to deserve it. By doing so much
1:42:48work, it becomes unreasonable not to
1:42:50achieve it. Do so much work it would be
1:42:52unreasonable that you fail. The seat at
1:42:54the table is yours if you want it. Do
1:42:57the hard work. Build the skills no one
1:42:59can ignore. Adjust your mindset to match
1:43:01where you want to go. Then pull up a
1:43:03chair and sit down. You want to work
1:43:05with such relentless obsession that when
1:43:07people see you, they're grateful they
1:43:08don't have to compete against you. The
1:43:11fastest shortcut is to stop looking for
1:43:13shortcuts. Do the work. Are those all
1:43:16mine? All one.
1:43:22Violence is the answer.
1:43:25There's There's two. There's two quotes
1:43:27on the on the in the first few pages of
1:43:30our sales handbook internal
1:43:31acquisition.com. One is volume negates
1:43:34luck and violence is the answer. And I
1:43:38would say that those are like credos
1:43:39that that the team lives by and I think
1:43:42>> violent team.
1:43:43>> Mhm. They are um and violently
1:43:45successful. Um, I think I think there's
1:43:49a lot of power in
1:43:55in knowing that you're doing every
1:43:58single thing you possibly can to win.
1:44:03>> Because if you are if you can look at
1:44:04yourself in the mirror and say, I have
1:44:06controlled the controllable,
1:44:08I think there's some entire entirely the
1:44:11controllable, not the uncontrollable.
1:44:13Those things can happen. I could do my
1:44:14book launch and there can be a lightning
1:44:16strike and there can be no power in
1:44:17Vegas. That can happen. But in the event
1:44:19that that happens, if you if you leave
1:44:21it all in the field, if you have nothing
1:44:24left in the tank,
1:44:26I don't think there's a feeling that's
1:44:28more satisfying as a man than knowing
1:44:32that you've given everything that you
1:44:34had to give to an endeavor that you
1:44:36deemed meaningful.
1:44:38And so Leila and I have this thing that
1:44:39we say a lot, but um a man must have a
1:44:42quest.
1:44:44And I just really really like that. It's
1:44:46like you need to do something. You need
1:44:48to go towards something. And your quest
1:44:50could be the best being the best father.
1:44:51It could be it could be being the best
1:44:53musician or the best podcast or the best
1:44:55businessman or the best tire replacer,
1:44:57the best sweeper,
1:44:58>> whatever it is. But like I think I think
1:45:01being questless, being aimless, and
1:45:05never being able to use the violence
1:45:08that you are capable of in the pursuit
1:45:10of an endeavor that you find meaningful
1:45:12is where people find themselves lost and
1:45:16without hope. Because
1:45:21hopelessness comes from a perceived lack
1:45:23of options. We don't know what to do.
1:45:27Anxiety comes from many options but no
1:45:30priorities. And so there's many things
1:45:33to do but we aren't sure which one.
1:45:35>> And so a quest
1:45:38remedies both of those because you have
1:45:40one path that you're clear on. And
1:45:45you know the only thing that you have
1:45:48left to do is destroy everything in your
1:45:50path to getting to where you want to go.
1:45:52And I'm using strong language on purpose
1:45:54rather than saying that you literally
1:45:55need to destroy everyone. but more so
1:45:57the ideas, the thoughts, the doubts, the
1:46:00the perceived risks that aren't even
1:46:02really risks. Um
1:46:05those are the things that we have to
1:46:06march triumphantly towards. And I think
1:46:09um having someone in your corner uh
1:46:14who believes in that better version of
1:46:15you is one of the the rarest gifts that
1:46:20you can have in life. And there's a line
1:46:23from 300 that I love. The queen says to
1:46:26Leonitis, she's she says, um, "Come back
1:46:30with your shielder on it." And I think
1:46:32that we all want a spouse or a partner
1:46:35who can who can reward us for the good
1:46:40fight because what that queen is saying
1:46:43in that moment is not like, "I want you
1:46:45to win." She's like, "I want you to die
1:46:47trying." M
1:46:49>> so and I think that that's that's like
1:46:50all we I mean to be fair that's
1:46:52literally all we will do is die trying.
1:46:54All of us will die trying. And I think
1:46:56um well rather all of us will die some
1:46:58of us will die trying. And I think
1:47:01that's that's about as good of a life as
1:47:04I think anyone can really ask for. One
1:47:07of my least favorite groups of people
1:47:08are those without a quest mocking those
1:47:10who have one.
1:47:16wastess of space. Well,
1:47:19>> it causes doubt. This is another reason
1:47:20why the lonely chapter thing resonates
1:47:22so much that people who are in it have
1:47:25their certainty about wanting to get out
1:47:27of it diminished by people who can't see
1:47:30the fact that they're in it. And you go,
1:47:32[ __ ] All of my friends are saying,
1:47:34"Well, why why are you staying in? Cuz
1:47:35you want to go to the gym in the
1:47:36morning." What does it matter if you
1:47:37miss what does it matter if you miss
1:47:39your workout? Doesn't matter if you It
1:47:41doesn't matter if you miss your workout
1:47:42tomorrow, dude. Go, No, I really, really
1:47:45want this thing.
1:47:47and my wanting of this hard thing and
1:47:49the efforts and sacrifices and
1:47:51trade-offs I'm having to make in order
1:47:52to get there.
1:47:55The doubt that already exists inside of
1:47:57me is being multiplied by people who are
1:47:59outside of it. And if I could give
1:48:02everybody a gift, it would be the
1:48:04ability to turn down the volume on
1:48:06people who don't understand the goals
1:48:08that you're trying to achieve.
1:48:10It shouldn't be your job to explain
1:48:12yourself to people who don't understand
1:48:14what you're trying to do.
1:48:15and the confusion of this person gets it
1:48:18and understands it and this person
1:48:21doesn't, you shouldn't be listening to
1:48:23them at equal measure.
1:48:30I have a lot of live translation that I
1:48:32think um I've wired into being able to
1:48:35handle some things that were difficult
1:48:37um which is like I pretty much translate
1:48:39all hate into you live your life against
1:48:41my preferences. And so whenever they're
1:48:44saying all of these things of like, "No,
1:48:45you don't have to go to the gym. We
1:48:46we're doing this other thing." It's just
1:48:47saying, "You're living your life in a
1:48:48way that's against my preferences.
1:48:50You're valuing things that I don't
1:48:51value." And you're like, "You're right."
1:48:52And so it doesn't mean like we don't
1:48:54need to have the same values, at least
1:48:56in the short term. Um, and I think just
1:48:59accepting that that is okay and that you
1:49:02can still be friends, at least in the
1:49:03short term, is fine. And what they're
1:49:06really trying to do is get you to comply
1:49:08with their way of living. Because maybe,
1:49:11not always,
1:49:15when you live in accordance with your
1:49:17new values and new preferences,
1:49:20it brings into sharp contrast how they
1:49:22are not living in accordance to theirs.
1:49:25>> Yeah. Yeah. This was what 10 years ago
1:49:29when as a club promoter I decided that I
1:49:32was going to take six months off from
1:49:33drinking which now sounds like
1:49:35commonplace now is almost a caricature
1:49:37of something lame that people do too
1:49:38much and drinking has come back around
1:49:40but 10 years ago I was on the [ __ ]
1:49:42frontier [laughter]
1:49:44and I remember when I stopped drinking
1:49:46so many of the people that I would hang
1:49:48out with went from being surprised to
1:49:54ribbing mockery to almost offending did.
1:49:57And I think a lot of that was people
1:49:59realizing, oh [ __ ] the fact that Chris
1:50:02has stopped drinking throws the fact
1:50:03that I need to drink in order to feel
1:50:05social into harsh contrast. My bad
1:50:08habits are being highlighted by the fact
1:50:10that someone near me has broken them.
1:50:15And what's really interesting about that
1:50:17is that you made money from other people
1:50:18drinking. And so you clearly had no
1:50:21problem with anyone drinking. you just
1:50:23chose not to drink for you so that you
1:50:25could grow the business, get more in
1:50:26shape, whatever.
1:50:27>> Makes it feel even more elective, which
1:50:28makes it feel like even more of an
1:50:29insult,
1:50:30>> right? Which is which makes it also more
1:50:33more ridiculous how violent they were
1:50:37about opposing this choice because you
1:50:40were like, I'm not projecting anything
1:50:41on you. I would prefer it if you drank.
1:50:43Please,
1:50:44>> please spend as much money as you can at
1:50:45the club. [laughter]
1:50:46>> Continue.
1:50:46>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
1:50:47>> Right. Um, but even that like it's a
1:50:50perfect example because there's there
1:50:52wasn't a shade of judgment behind it
1:50:54because you are incentivized to have
1:50:56them.
1:50:57>> I was opening the doors myself
1:50:58>> and cracking the bottle.
1:50:59>> Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. Pretty
1:51:00much.
1:51:01>> And so like I actually think it is the
1:51:02perfect example because it shows that
1:51:05like there is it is not about you. That
1:51:07is the point because there was no
1:51:10judgment. You were literally
1:51:11incentivized them for for them to
1:51:12continue that behavior and yet they
1:51:14still felt bad and angry that you were
1:51:17do not doing something they were doing
1:51:19which then made them feel that they felt
1:51:21like they shouldn't be doing it either
1:51:22and then they just projected it on to
1:51:24you. And it's like when you have these
1:51:25this violent opposition,
1:51:28one of the things that I've actually
1:51:28been more recently thinking about is
1:51:30like no one hates you. They hate the
1:51:34projection that they have of you that's
1:51:3699% made up because no one can know 100%
1:51:39of you. Like the only person whose hate
1:51:41you should really pay attention to is
1:51:42your own because there's no other person
1:51:45on earth who has full context to who you
1:51:47are. And so the person that that
1:51:49someone's making fun of or they hate or
1:51:51that they're disagreeing with is the
1:51:53person and within the context of here
1:51:54obviously that's that's consumed
1:51:57>> six 30-second clips of you over the 37
1:52:01years you've been alive and has filled
1:52:04in the blanks for every other minute of
1:52:06your existence with the exception of
1:52:08those three minutes that they have
1:52:10consumed.
1:52:11>> Correct. And so how much weight I should
1:52:14probably proportionally weight the
1:52:16opinions of people based on the shared
1:52:20experience that they have of my life
1:52:22with me. And so if someone has spent one
1:52:24day with me out of the 37 years that
1:52:26I've been alive, I have 37* 365 more
1:52:29context on the individual than they do.
1:52:32And so I should probably weight it
1:52:33appropriately to that. There's a idea
1:52:36from Gwendogal which is about this. It's
1:52:38called tilting at windmills.
1:52:41>> An online stranger doesn't know you. All
1:52:43they have are a few vague impressions of
1:52:44you, too meager to form anything but a
1:52:46fantasm. So when they attack you,
1:52:49they're really just attacking their own
1:52:51imagination. There is no need to take it
1:52:53personally, which is related to this
1:52:54principle of humanity. Every single
1:52:56person is exactly what you would be if
1:52:59you were them.
1:53:00>> This includes your political opponents.
1:53:02So instead of dismissing them as evil or
1:53:04stupid, maybe seek to understand the
1:53:06circumstances that led them to their
1:53:07conclusions.
1:53:10>> You know, I love that. Um, [laughter]
1:53:13>> so good.
1:53:14>> Um, it also teases out something that I
1:53:17might have to put my put my my hat on
1:53:19for, but [laughter]
1:53:20>> switch it um which is that if everyone
1:53:24if you were going to be the same,
1:53:30if you were the exact same person as
1:53:33they are, if you were them,
1:53:36then it removes the concept of free
1:53:38will. Uh-huh. Uhhuh. Uhhuh.
1:53:42Uh-huh.
1:53:47Yeah.
1:53:49If you're poor, try the buy nothing
1:53:51challenge.
1:53:52>> The buy nothing challenge. For 30 days,
1:53:55buy nothing except food, rent, gas, and
1:53:57insurance. Don't bring your wallet with
1:53:59you when you leave home. Pack lunch. See
1:54:01how much you save. Repeat until you have
1:54:04as much as you want. Brackets pairs well
1:54:07with working 12 hours a day. Being good
1:54:10with money literally just means spend
1:54:12less than you make and put the extra in
1:54:15things that go up, not down.
1:54:20financial education in two tweets. Um,
1:54:26the hardest part about most things isn't
1:54:31knowing what to do,
1:54:33it's doing it. And the hard part about
1:54:37doing it is that you're often more
1:54:39rewarded for every action except for the
1:54:41one that you need to take. And so
1:54:44there's a hundred things you can spend
1:54:45money on. There's only one nothing.
1:54:48And so
1:54:50every it's so exhausting to not spend
1:54:53money when you don't have any because
1:54:55every single thing that you want or many
1:54:57things that you want have price tags
1:54:58associated with them and you have to at
1:55:01all moments in the day say no a hundred
1:55:03times in order to quote spend nothing.
1:55:06And so it's this muscle that we have to
1:55:09build. But I I I strongly encourage the
1:55:12buy nothing challenge because
1:55:15one, you realize how little you can
1:55:17really live on.
1:55:19>> And when you realize how little you can
1:55:20really live on, you realize how much
1:55:22more risk you can actually take. Because
1:55:24the apparent downside of what if I lost
1:55:26everything becomes incredibly tangible,
1:55:28which is like, well, I lived on $200,
1:55:30$500 worth,
1:55:31>> not even that bad.
1:55:31>> Yeah. It's actually and when you realize
1:55:34that and this is I think Morgan Strusel
1:55:36I say his name right. Um
1:55:39when we look back in time at some of our
1:55:41happiest moments uh we think we were
1:55:43happy when we were poor. Um but I'll
1:55:45just say on an anecdotal level um
1:55:49my one of my own words um
1:55:52we often say that we'll be happy like we
1:55:55already have the things that we said we
1:55:56want that would make us happy.
1:55:58>> Yeah.
1:55:58>> And yet here we are. [laughter]
1:56:00>> Yeah. This is a nostalgia discount for
1:56:02sure that
1:56:04>> nobody ever believes that we're living
1:56:06through a golden era.
1:56:07>> Golden eras only ever occur in history.
1:56:10>> The good old days. Yeah, it's always the
1:56:12good old days. I asked a question
1:56:14actually recently which was there's
1:56:16certain periods that people look back on
1:56:20nationally
1:56:21>> as times that were particularly
1:56:23wonderful.
1:56:24>> I did ask the question, do you think
1:56:26anyone will look back at 2026 and think
1:56:28that it was the good old days at some
1:56:30point? Uh, every generation believes
1:56:33that they're living through a moment
1:56:34which is marketkedly different than the
1:56:35generations before. This one does feel
1:56:37particularly
1:56:39unremarkable
1:56:41in that way. To a degree, yeah, I think
1:56:44when I I'm trying to project forward
1:56:48stuff that currently we think about with
1:56:51loving nostalgia from the past. And I'm
1:56:53not sure, but then probably during the
1:56:55'9s, right, did people think that WWF
1:56:59and F-16 fighter rocket, the fighter
1:57:02jets and and Limp Biscuit were going to
1:57:05be what people in three decades time
1:57:07would look back on with loving
1:57:09tenderness.
1:57:12So, I'm going to say two things that I
1:57:13think are um so one,
1:57:17a behaviorist can explain the the the
1:57:19nostalgia paradox,
1:57:21>> which is that
1:57:23across species,
1:57:25negative consequences fade.
1:57:27>> Mhm.
1:57:28>> Fading affect bias.
1:57:29>> Yeah.
1:57:30>> And but positive doesn't.
1:57:32>> Mhm. And so that's why you have your ex
1:57:34that you always want to go back to cuz
1:57:35you forget how crazy she is and then you
1:57:36see her and then you're like, "Oh my
1:57:37god, I forgot how crazy you were." um
1:57:39and why you drink and then the next
1:57:41morning you say I'm never going to drink
1:57:42again and then seven days later you're
1:57:43drinking again to my life
1:57:44>> right [laughter]
1:57:46and so um but like even being cognizant
1:57:48of the fact that punishment fades and
1:57:50reward sticks is helpful for making
1:57:52decisions in the future so that's thing
1:57:54one second is that like when I really
1:57:58think about at least the eras of my life
1:58:00so I'll just talk personally
1:58:02when I think about when I was you know
1:58:04sleeping on the gym floor um
1:58:08In a lot of ways, that was like the good
1:58:10old days. Like I was I was fighting
1:58:11really hard for something I really cared
1:58:12about. And then, you know, there was a
1:58:15moment where it started to work and I
1:58:16started, you know, launching gym to gym
1:58:18to gym with Ila, which was like,
1:58:21was it necessarily the good old days,
1:58:23but like it was she and I and we were
1:58:25figuring it out. And I think I have a
1:58:26lot of respect and admiration for that
1:58:29kid who was just working his ass off.
1:58:31Even though I didn't know what I was
1:58:32doing, I just try. I tried. M um and
1:58:35then obviously when things started
1:58:36working out with gym launch and it was
1:58:37really scaling it's like I remember that
1:58:39period and like I think you can you can
1:58:40ascribe a good old days especially on a
1:58:42personal level to like almost every
1:58:43season of life when you look in
1:58:45retrospect but just because the the
1:58:47negative has faded
1:58:48>> false
1:58:49>> um and so
1:58:52it's one of these things it's like it's
1:58:55like a great way to feel bad about how
1:58:56you feel today because you know you
1:58:58should feel better because you know you
1:59:00will feel better about today in the
1:59:01future because the future will of today
1:59:04without the negative consequences and
1:59:05the stressors of today that in the
1:59:07future seem irrelevant. Um, and so it's
1:59:09like whenever you think about this stuff
1:59:11like what is my what my my operation for
1:59:13gratitude is imagine something good,
1:59:17imagine losing it and then realize that
1:59:20you haven't lost it. That is how you
1:59:22feel gratitude
1:59:24>> at the most basic level.
1:59:25>> Mhm. And so
1:59:30whenever you repeat that operation
1:59:32either in your mind or in reality like
1:59:34you feel gratitude and so I think
1:59:36nostalgia is a flavor of that as we go
1:59:38back in time. Um now we we can't get it
1:59:42back. Um but I guess we can see it
1:59:44through a new lens.
1:59:45>> That's the memory dividend thing
1:59:47>> from Bill Perkins.
1:59:48>> I phenomenal book everyone.
1:59:50>> Die with zero. Going by Die with Zero.
1:59:52>> Really really good book.
1:59:53>> Really great. Three hours to read.
1:59:54Fantastic. Um,
1:59:58yeah. I think some of the areas that
2:00:01people rely on with more nostalgia from
2:00:03a personal standpoint,
2:00:05times with more simplicity and fewer
2:00:08trade-offs, I think tend to be looked
2:00:10back on with, huh, I was really
2:00:14singularly focused in that way.
2:00:15>> Life was simpler then.
2:00:17>> Correct. And there is an accumulation of
2:00:20complexity. So I wonder if
2:00:23simplification would be a way to remove
2:00:26some of the restrictions between now and
2:00:29front running some of that gratitude for
2:00:31now in the moment.
2:00:33>> I think that's really interesting
2:00:34because I think that the complexity of
2:00:36our lives in the moment that we were
2:00:37living them was just as maxed out is as
2:00:39it is now because we're human, not
2:00:41because life was more complex, but
2:00:42because we always find the maximum
2:00:44amount of problems that our brains can
2:00:45perceive. And so at any given moment,
2:00:47whether you're, you know, 20 or 40, like
2:00:50you're you might have absolutely more
2:00:52problems when you're 40, but you also
2:00:53have higher ability to deal with those
2:00:55problems. And the problems that you
2:00:56perceived when you were 20, the worst
2:00:58thing that's ever happened to you is the
2:00:59worst thing ever happened to you. You
2:01:00will still have the same number of
2:01:01problems. And so the idea of simplifying
2:01:03our lives is really just an attempt to
2:01:06mirror only the incomplete memory that
2:01:08we have of that moment.
2:01:09>> Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. I'm gonna try and
2:01:11get rid of the tradeoffs that I did have
2:01:14to do in the past in the moment to make
2:01:16the moment more like the past.
2:01:18>> Yeah.
2:01:18>> Yeah. There's a Adam Lane Smith taught
2:01:21me this a couple years ago. I think it's
2:01:22really really true. Your life does not
2:01:24need to be easier. It needs to be
2:01:26simpler. Your system is designed to
2:01:28handle stress and challenge, but not
2:01:30complication.
2:01:32>> You probably handle hard things pretty
2:01:33well, but feel overwhelmed when they
2:01:35become messy. Do not attribute to
2:01:37difficulty that which can be explained
2:01:39by complexity.
2:01:44>> Really cool.
2:01:45>> And I think that's that's where a lot of
2:01:48stress is felt. And this is the line
2:01:51from whatever [ __ ] four episodes ago
2:01:53where uh there's no such thing as being
2:01:55overworked, only underested. That
2:01:57overworked
2:02:01is the asterisk
2:02:04overworked at a small bucket of things.
2:02:07But there is such a thing as being
2:02:09spread too thin and overworked across a
2:02:12larger bucket of things. If all that you
2:02:14have to do for the next 6 months or two
2:02:17years is write a book,
2:02:20it's going to be stressful, but it's
2:02:22going to be enjoyable. If you have to
2:02:23write a book and raise a kid and manage
2:02:25finances and go to work and try and get
2:02:27in shape and connect with your partner
2:02:30and your mom's ill and
2:02:32it doesn't take it only takes two or
2:02:34three of those and people fall apart.
2:02:36System is designed to handle intensity
2:02:38but not complexity.
2:02:45I think I think most people would be
2:02:47astonished at how much they can
2:02:48accomplish if they remove things because
2:02:51I don't I don't think focus is also not
2:02:54additive but multi multiplicative in
2:02:56that
2:02:59the best things that I've ever made
2:03:01books things like that the best works
2:03:03that I've created have been things that
2:03:05had
2:03:07many coats of paint and so I can look at
2:03:11the same project over a long period of
2:03:14time when I'm on good days, on bad days,
2:03:15it rains, it's it's it's sunshine, Leila
2:03:17and I are good, Leila and I are bad like
2:03:19through all these different seasons. And
2:03:21so I look at the work through as many
2:03:23lenses as I can and then it it creates
2:03:26it creates the texture to the work that
2:03:27gives it that depth
2:03:29>> of and I like the many coats of paint
2:03:30cuz like you have to let it dry. Like
2:03:32it's very rare that something on the
2:03:33first shot is very good. It just takes a
2:03:35lot of attempts, but you you can't get
2:03:37that surface area of thinking if you can
2:03:40only think about it a handful of times.
2:03:42And so there's only so much thinking
2:03:44time that you have, which means that if
2:03:47you give it to five projects rather than
2:03:49one, getting one in deep on five
2:03:51projects is rarely a novel concept. Like
2:03:55you rarely will come up with something
2:03:56that is is inherently unique because
2:03:58many people can give one-inch deep
2:03:59thought towards any idea. Well, also
2:04:02somebody who is 1/5if as good as you at
2:04:05doing that thing are giving 100% of
2:04:07themselves. So you're basically
2:04:11cailing your capacity by spreading it
2:04:13across multiple things. And again, I
2:04:15relate things back to business, but um
2:04:18in some ways, you believing that you can
2:04:20pursue multiple masters is actually
2:04:23arrogant because it assumes that the
2:04:25people that you compete against can't
2:04:27beat you when they're fully focused on
2:04:28one thing and that you can somehow
2:04:30compete with three or four or five
2:04:32people at the same time and still win.
2:04:35And maybe you can, but I think the vast
2:04:37majority of people just lose.
2:04:39>> Stop whining. Every position has an
2:04:41advantage. Younger means cutting edge.
2:04:44Older means more experience. Smaller
2:04:46company means more personalized. Bigger
2:04:48company means longer track record. Rich
2:04:51means resources to use. Broke means
2:04:54nothing to lose. You aren't limited by
2:04:56your resources, only your
2:04:57resourcefulness.
2:05:07There's always a way to win.
2:05:13just not always a enough desire to win.
2:05:18The uh
2:05:21position of simplicity as well. I think
2:05:25so much of today is about trade-offs is
2:05:27cool.
2:05:30Looking across all of these, I can't see
2:05:33any of them that would be improved by
2:05:36complexity.
2:05:37young, old, small, big, rich, broke.
2:05:41It's a universal rule that cuts through
2:05:43all of them, which I think is really
2:05:44interesting. But yeah,
2:05:48everybody is able to find a reason why
2:05:51the situation that they're in is either
2:05:54great, but more typically not great.
2:05:57Because finding all of the ways that the
2:06:00thing that you have or don't have either
2:06:02limits you or restricts you in a way
2:06:04that it wouldn't if you were somebody
2:06:06else or in a different situation
2:06:08allows you to frontr run why you might
2:06:11fail in future.
2:06:14This is the reason why inversion is one
2:06:16of the most powerful ways to get what
2:06:19you want because we are hardwired to
2:06:22survive and part of survival is threat
2:06:26identification. What are all the
2:06:27problems that exist around me in my
2:06:30environment in my life that threaten me?
2:06:34And so when you try to think about
2:06:35what's good with your life, you have to
2:06:36sit there and be like, okay, I have to
2:06:38do my 5-minute journal in the morning
2:06:40and think what three and you're like
2:06:41sitting there, you're like, okay, what
2:06:43three things am I grateful for? Right?
2:06:45And you have to like try to do that,
2:06:46especially if you do different things
2:06:47every day, right? But what's
2:06:49interesting, and this is why I think
2:06:50Munger was so was so brilliant with
2:06:52this, is if you frame what are all the
2:06:56threats that I have to accomplishing
2:06:59what I want. What are all the things
2:07:00that are going to get in my way? Um, if
2:07:02I had to guarantee failure, what would I
2:07:04do? It's much easier to come up with the
2:07:07list of all the things that will
2:07:08guarantee failure because we're
2:07:11programmed to find those threats. And
2:07:13then all you have to do is just flip it
2:07:15as soon as you figured out that monster
2:07:17list of the things that guarantee your
2:07:18failure. And then you just do that. You
2:07:21know what's a cool version of this? If
2:07:22you were to design a day or a lifestyle
2:07:24for your worst enemy who's trying to
2:07:26beat you,
2:07:27>> what would it be? Uh and the inversion
2:07:30of the inversion is imagine that you
2:07:34were going up against you but with a
2:07:37mustache.
2:07:38>> Yeah. It's you versus a mustache. And
2:07:40this version of you is doing everything
2:07:41that they can to beat you. They know all
2:07:43of your failures. They know all of your
2:07:44shortcomings and your fears. What would
2:07:46that person do?
2:07:49Just do that. Do what that person would
2:07:51do that would beat you. Do what you with
2:07:52a mustache would do to beat you. And
2:07:55that's one of George's ideas. And I
2:07:56think it's really cool. It's the same as
2:07:58basically what would you do if you had
2:07:5910 times the agency
2:08:01>> because presumably that person would
2:08:03have way more agency. They wouldn't
2:08:04doubt themselves as much. They'd be more
2:08:05decisive. uh they would uh reduce
2:08:10complexity, they would be less
2:08:12distracted.
2:08:15So there's there's a there's a frame in
2:08:17the investing world which is if someone
2:08:18else were to come and buy 100% of your
2:08:20company today, what would they
2:08:21immediately do in the first, you know,
2:08:2330 days?
2:08:23>> Holy [ __ ] I can't believe that they're
2:08:25spending this much money on catering.
2:08:27[laughter]
2:08:29>> I can't believe they still have that guy
2:08:31um who was good two years ago and just
2:08:33shows up for work now. Um, and I think
2:08:36it's because what that frame provides
2:08:38you is
2:08:40an emotionless view of your current
2:08:43situation. You are your best the person
2:08:46that you would your your your worst
2:08:48enemy
2:08:49>> would have no emotion about Yeah. with a
2:08:52mustache would have no emotion around
2:08:54making the hard call because he's not
2:08:55you, he's someone else. And the person
2:08:57he's firing is not your best friend,
2:08:59Todd.
2:09:00>> It's just this inadequate person who's
2:09:02no longer upskilled. And so when we make
2:09:05these when when we talk through, you
2:09:07know, we have these podcasts around
2:09:08feelings and emotions and whatnot, like
2:09:12there is the
2:09:14there's the feelings that we there's the
2:09:16experience of life of the things that we
2:09:18feel while we go through it and then
2:09:20there's the the decisions that must
2:09:23occur in reality. M
2:09:25>> and I think trying to serve both masters
2:09:29is where people get I don't want to say
2:09:31in trouble but at least they understand
2:09:32that they are making a trade. I keep
2:09:34Todd on because I feel guilty. Okay, we
2:09:38at least understand that Todd is hurting
2:09:39your business and you would rather hurt
2:09:41the business than have the conversation
2:09:43with Todd.
2:09:44>> Show me your priorities.
2:09:45>> Yeah. And we know the priorities.
2:09:47>> It's just are the priorities the
2:09:48priorities you want?
2:09:49>> What what are you willing to sacrifice?
2:09:51Well, you either care more about Todd or
2:09:54more about not feeling guilty than you
2:09:56do about your business.
2:09:57>> Yeah.
2:09:58>> Show me your priorities.
2:09:59>> And And we know them. We know the
2:10:01priorities. And so, um, oh, behaviorist.
2:10:05Look at you, man. Um,
2:10:07yeah. And I think that like your life is
2:10:09a consequence of your priorities. And
2:10:10the question is just whether or not like
2:10:13many people want to want, they don't
2:10:14actually want.
2:10:16>> Yeah.
2:10:18They want to be willing to give up
2:10:19things in order to get stuff, but they
2:10:21don't actually give up things in order
2:10:23to get stuff.
2:10:25Above your intelligence, above your work
2:10:27ethic, you will be compensated in
2:10:29proportion to your risk. Pro tip: If
2:10:32you're afraid to take the risk, write
2:10:34down in excruciating detail what you're
2:10:36actually afraid of happening, step by
2:10:38step, what happens next when you fail.
2:10:41You'll often find it's not so bad when
2:10:43you spell it out. Fear exists in the
2:10:45vague, not the specific.
2:10:55So risk comes in a handful of flavors.
2:11:00One is what we know we will give up that
2:11:03we hope we will get something back from
2:11:04that's bigger.
2:11:06There's also the we want something
2:11:09bigger but we will pay a cost. So
2:11:11different ways of saying the same thing
2:11:13like it's going to be uh lose something
2:11:15good get something bad
2:11:17>> um are the are the things that risk
2:11:19presents for us.
2:11:23A different view on risk that I've been
2:11:25thinking a lot about is proportionality
2:11:27of risk.
2:11:29And at the most basic level, this is a
2:11:31lot of what you know, investing really
2:11:33is, which is there is always risk, but
2:11:35is the risk priced appropriately?
2:11:38And Peter Thiel had this commentary
2:11:41around Elon where if he had just had one
2:11:43of his three companies succeed, it would
2:11:45have already been a crazy win. But
2:11:48somehow he got all three of them to
2:11:50become I guess now you know
2:11:51multi-billion trillion dollar plus
2:11:52companies.
2:11:54And he said he must know something about
2:11:56risk that all of us don't understand.
2:11:58And I think there's something incredibly
2:12:01powerful about studying the person who's
2:12:02accumulated the most wealth in history
2:12:04or at least in present day. Um and that
2:12:07that man's understanding of risk is
2:12:09different and it's probably a more
2:12:10accurate view of true risk rather than
2:12:12perceived risk. And he often talks about
2:12:14like, well, the downside of trying as
2:12:16hard as you can is basically nothing.
2:12:19You are, if you're in the developed
2:12:20world, the likelihood that you starve to
2:12:21death is almost nothing. And there are
2:12:23there is free shelter if literally no
2:12:25one in your social construct would allow
2:12:27you to crash on a couch. And that
2:12:29assumes that during the day you are
2:12:30incapable of working in any way that
2:12:32generates money, which there are many
2:12:34ways to generate money that do not
2:12:36require tremendous skill, at least
2:12:37today.
2:12:38>> And so the downside is nothing. And so
2:12:41that is why the risk of going after
2:12:43whatever it is that you want is
2:12:45mispriced by the vast majority of people
2:12:47because they have this fear of the big
2:12:50thing that's good that's going to go
2:12:51away or a big bad thing that's going to
2:12:54come as a result. But the big bad thing
2:12:56is nothing,
2:12:58but the big thing that's good that they
2:12:59miss out on is everything.
2:13:02>> And so the risk is almost always
2:13:05mispriced because our brains are wired
2:13:08to mispric it. Because if you mess up
2:13:10once, you don't pass on your genes and
2:13:12you die. But it is in no way wired to
2:13:15maximize your potential and what you're
2:13:17capable of.
2:13:20This mismatch between ancient
2:13:22programming and the modern world is kind
2:13:24of hilarious. We got a nervous system
2:13:26that was built to fight bears and now
2:13:27it's worried by group texts. Uh
2:13:31it's true. It's true. And uh how do you
2:13:35think about Let me add one more piece on
2:13:37that risk piece. Um, I was talking to an
2:13:39entrepreneur um, a week or two ago and
2:13:43she had grown her great-grandmother's
2:13:45business from 4 million to 44 million in
2:13:473 years. It was like awesome, super cool
2:13:49story. And it became obvious to her that
2:13:52her brand and needing to create more
2:13:54content was kind of the constraint of
2:13:56her going from call it 45 million to,
2:13:58you know, 200 million and beyond. And
2:14:01she said, "Okay, so do you think I
2:14:02should like hire an editor?" And was
2:14:05interesting. She's like, "Well, how much
2:14:06is that going to cost?" And so the
2:14:07business is doing a million month profit
2:14:09now. And what was interesting to me is
2:14:12that often times we don't also
2:14:14recalibrate our appetite for risk as our
2:14:18exposure to opportunity expands.
2:14:22>> And so you right now are still operating
2:14:24from the $4 million business owner risk
2:14:26angle where you were making a million a
2:14:29year and one or two editors was 10 or
2:14:3120% of your net income. when you're
2:14:33making $12 million in profit, we should
2:14:36be thinking about how do we make a two,
2:14:37three, $4 million bet that we think is
2:14:40going to result in an extra 200 million
2:14:42or 100 million on top of that, which is
2:14:44a phenomenal return. And so, I mean, I
2:14:46open up the offers book with one of my
2:14:49top two quotes from Jeff Bezos when he
2:14:52talks about how if you have a 10% chance
2:14:54of a 100 of 100x payoff, you should take
2:14:57that bet every time knowing that you
2:14:58will be wrong nine times out of 10.
2:15:01The difficulty
2:15:03with that example contrasted with
2:15:06reality is that if you were at a casino
2:15:09and you had a 10% chance of a 100x
2:15:12payoff, of course you should take that
2:15:15bet, but then just assume that the
2:15:18minimum bet is 10 years and you only
2:15:22have three hands to play.
2:15:24>> Yeah.
2:15:24>> And that's the reality of life. That
2:15:27said, when we look at what that loss of
2:15:30that 10% when that 10% when the 90% of
2:15:33the time that it fails
2:15:35isn't actually a loss though,
2:15:37>> you've accumulated a lot along the way.
2:15:39>> Yeah. And you've you've gained
2:15:40experience, you've gained lessons,
2:15:41you've gained skills, you've gained
2:15:42network, you've gained relationships, um
2:15:44perspective,
2:15:46and so you only move forward by taking
2:15:50these shots on goal. And I think that if
2:15:52every risk was only seen as zero
2:15:55downside, only upside and either I win
2:15:57or I learn, which we are not the first
2:16:00people to say that, but whatever version
2:16:03of that narrative you need in order to
2:16:05realize that life has given you an
2:16:06endless amount of scratchoff tickets and
2:16:08you just get have to cash them in.
2:16:11>> I think that more people would take bets
2:16:12and more people would win.
2:16:13>> It's way better to be high conviction
2:16:15and wrong than low conviction and wrong,
2:16:17[laughter]
2:16:18you know?
2:16:19like I'm just going to go for it because
2:16:21at least if you're high conviction and
2:16:22wrong, you move sufficiently quickly to
2:16:23be able to update your system based on
2:16:25the results that you got.
2:16:27>> It's why indecisiveness again and that
2:16:28inaction thing, inaction has a cost. Do
2:16:31not make the assumption that inaction
2:16:32has no price. So, it does have a price.
2:16:34>> Yeah. And it's and it's and it's a this
2:16:36is one of those labels that we're saying
2:16:38at the very beginning about
2:16:38shortorthhand. It's like inaction isn't
2:16:40even in action. We are always taking
2:16:42action. It's it's action against your
2:16:44priorities versus action towards your
2:16:46priorities. Which of them will help you
2:16:48accomplish what you want?
2:16:49>> Mhm. And when you think that presumably
2:16:51nobody wants to be less decisive,
2:16:54there's very few. I mean, there's being
2:16:55rash, which I don't think is the same as
2:16:57being decisive. When I've met the
2:16:59threshold that is satisfactory or should
2:17:02be satisfactory in order for me to make
2:17:04this decision, I make it is not the same
2:17:06as I make a decision before I have
2:17:07sufficient information in order to be
2:17:08able to make it.
2:17:09>> It's an information question, not a time
2:17:11question.
2:17:11>> Yeah. Uh but when you think
2:17:15don't practice what you don't want to
2:17:17become and if you are practicing being
2:17:20indecisive
2:17:21couched in the wrapper of keeping
2:17:24optionality open you're just practicing
2:17:28being indecisive
2:17:29over and over again. And if you think of
2:17:32your indecision as an investment in your
2:17:34future decisions i.e. making them
2:17:36harder.
2:17:37>> That actually makes indecision a really
2:17:39a really really horrible pitfall to go
2:17:42down.
2:17:43>> I remember one of the things that
2:17:44allowed me to take the bet to quit my
2:17:46job was and I I people see me now but
2:17:49like I I'm still very riskaverse. Um
2:17:52believe it or not. Uh and so I mean
2:17:55remember I was a you know finished I
2:17:57didn't have the like school failed me.
2:18:00What do I do? I had the opposite cursive
2:18:02options. I had done really well. All
2:18:04that kind of stuff. And
2:18:07the thing that got me was if not now,
2:18:10then when?
2:18:12Because I figured a future version of me
2:18:15that I was delaying this decision for
2:18:17would either have a wife to support or
2:18:19wife and kids to support,
2:18:20>> right? And I was like, so if it's this
2:18:22hard for me now,
2:18:24>> how do how can I make the assumption
2:18:25that it's going to somehow be easier at
2:18:27some point in the future? And if I
2:18:28really say that I want this thing, then
2:18:30how can I not do it now when it the the
2:18:33chips are most stacked in my favor?
2:18:35>> Yeah.
2:18:36>> And
2:18:38um you said one other thing earlier that
2:18:40I I um oh about uh we we have a desire
2:18:45for perfect information in order to make
2:18:48a perfect decision from a world that
2:18:50will give us neither. And so we have to
2:18:54be willing. So, like what separates a
2:18:55rash decision from a well-informed
2:18:58decision? Well, taken to the natural
2:19:01extreme, a perfectly informed decision,
2:19:03the decision has often been made for you
2:19:05because the outcomes have already
2:19:06occurred. Which means that if you have
2:19:08perfect information, the opportunity has
2:19:10already gone away. And so, we have to be
2:19:13willing to make some assumptions. We
2:19:15have to make some bets. Which is why
2:19:17having a worldview or a good model of
2:19:20prediction makes you better at getting
2:19:22what you want because you can say listen
2:19:24I know this I believe this based on my
2:19:27pattern of how I think the world works
2:19:28and because of this Phil and I think
2:19:30this is a good a good or decent bet and
2:19:32a lot of that calculus is the what's my
2:19:35upside what's my downside if I'm wrong
2:19:37and if we know that the downside of
2:19:38being wrong is zero
2:19:41then go for it
2:19:42>> what's that all all loss is just
2:19:44psychological until death
2:19:45>> do this Jaco
2:19:46[laughter] I of course I saw that and I
2:19:48was like [ __ ] Joo shout out. I love that
2:19:51quote.
2:19:51>> Yeah,
2:19:52>> it angers me how good it is. [laughter]
2:19:54>> So good.
2:19:55>> I was thinking about it's been almost
2:19:58exactly a year since me and you sat down
2:19:59and a lot of the
2:20:02>> this is seventh time you've been on
2:20:04maybe something like that. Is it really?
2:20:05>> Maybe. Yeah. Sixth or seventh plus we
2:20:07did the one with me and me and Ila
2:20:11and I think there's always an
2:20:13interesting progression. And so one of
2:20:14the things that I've noticed looking at
2:20:16the time capsule of the last year of
2:20:18your writing and what I've been thinking
2:20:20about too is uh risk, uncertainty, and
2:20:23decisiveness seem to be themes that are
2:20:24in there a lot. And I came across this
2:20:26Nibil Kareshi quote that
2:20:30is maybe a little self- serving, but I
2:20:32think it it's really true about why
2:20:36drilling
2:20:3820, 30 hours, 40 hour, however long me
2:20:40and you have spoken, why it's why I
2:20:43think it's important and why I don't get
2:20:44bored of it. He says, "A cursed fact of
2:20:47the world is that the most important
2:20:49life lessons you learn are the hardest
2:20:50to communicate to others because they
2:20:52always sound like cliches." Mhm.
2:20:54>> And there's a bit of me in the back of
2:20:56my mind that hears,
2:20:59[sighs and gasps]
2:21:00"It's not that deep, bro. You're over
2:21:02complicating it. You don't need to look
2:21:03at life with this level of resolution.
2:21:05This seems to be unnecessarily
2:21:07dissecting. Uh this is
2:21:11uh majoring in the minors. Uh this is
2:21:15taking too seriously things which don't
2:21:17matter in that sort of a way. Paying too
2:21:19much attention. It's a kind of fragility
2:21:22of optimization, etc., etc. And
2:21:27the fact that lots of things that are
2:21:30important sound like stuff that you've
2:21:31heard before doesn't discount the fact
2:21:34that you need to hear it. Because if you
2:21:36know it that well,
2:21:39why the [ __ ] are you still in the same
2:21:40place? If you're bored of hearing about
2:21:44how important cold, dark, quiet is in
2:21:47order to prepare your bedroom for sleep,
2:21:49why does your sleep still suck?
2:21:52Why does your sleep still suck? If
2:21:54you're bored of hearing how it's
2:21:57important to integrate emotions, but
2:21:59there are times when you need to put
2:22:00them to one side, that they're
2:22:02information, not a master,
2:22:06why is it you still don't have a good
2:22:07relationship with your emotions? If you
2:22:08know this stuff, if it's so obvious, if
2:22:10this is the sort of thing that you
2:22:11should have been taught by your father
2:22:13or you should have learned in school or
2:22:14you shouldn't have had to wait until
2:22:15you're in your 40s to understand,
2:22:18why is it you haven't mastered it? And
2:22:22the most important life lessons that you
2:22:24learn are the hardest to communicate to
2:22:26others because they always sound like
2:22:27cliches.
2:22:33We need to be reminded more than we need
2:22:34to be taught.
2:22:37And so that means that the gap between
2:22:40what we have and what we want
2:22:44is typically not a lack of information,
2:22:46but a lack of execution. And so if it's
2:22:49a lack of execution, then it ladders up
2:22:51to what are the motivating operations
2:22:52that are either preventing me from doing
2:22:54it or that are insufficient to compel
2:22:55me.
2:22:57>> And so
2:22:59this is why I think Chris and I go into
2:23:01this very very minute detail about okay,
2:23:06you would just sleep on your friend's
2:23:07couch and how bad is that? And trying to
2:23:09actually spell out that the down like
2:23:11how do you put the picture like we were
2:23:13saying earlier with uh the the the
2:23:15waiting room or the the hospital bed?
2:23:17It's it's trying to take three steps
2:23:20forward into the reality of what living
2:23:22through your downside would look like so
2:23:24that you can realize that the downside
2:23:26is 10 times worse in your mind than it
2:23:28is in reality. And if it's 10 times
2:23:30worse in your mind than it is in
2:23:30reality, then it means that you can take
2:23:32actions in reality because the downside
2:23:34doesn't really exist. And the
2:23:36excruciating detail is needed in order
2:23:38to be able to bring this imagination
2:23:39into reality. Oh, I can feel that. I
2:23:41imagine what it would be like to be on
2:23:43my friend's couch. I know it would be
2:23:44brown. It would be on the left hand side
2:23:45of the room. I would have a little thing
2:23:46on the floor that would be a mobile desk
2:23:48that I might work at.
2:23:50>> And sometimes it takes actually reaching
2:23:52out to a friend before you take a big
2:23:55jump and say, "Hey,
2:23:57>> if all this I'm about to do something
2:23:59wild, if this went to [ __ ] would I be
2:24:01able to crash to your place for like an
2:24:03extended period? I would be willing to
2:24:04do X, Y, and Z. I don't think it's going
2:24:06to happen, but would you be willing to
2:24:08do it?" Because you saying that you're
2:24:09willing to take me in is going to allow
2:24:12me to do that. I would say that if you
2:24:14actually have real friends, 10 out of 10
2:24:16of them would be like, "Yeah, dude. Go
2:24:18for it."
2:24:18>> Like, "I got you." And I think having
2:24:22like I had there was a handful of people
2:24:23that um I probably called every single
2:24:25night during the six months leading into
2:24:27me quitting my job where I basically
2:24:28rehashed the exact same decision a
2:24:30hundred times uh with them and reerived
2:24:32it.
2:24:32>> I think people would be surprised to
2:24:34hear that.
2:24:34>> I think people would be surprised to
2:24:36hear that Mr. Decisive seemingly would
2:24:40need to have
2:24:41>> that conversation. I also think it's
2:24:43cool to hear that story because
2:24:47it legitimates
2:24:49somebody's bravery in the face of
2:24:51uncertainty and repetition. I think a
2:24:54lot of the time we feel like we're a
2:24:55burden to our friends for asking them
2:24:56for advice about the same problem that
2:24:57we've come to with before. I've done it
2:25:00with you and like hey man I [laughter]
2:25:03Yeah. No, it's not new.
2:25:07Yeah. [laughter] No, it's the Yeah, it's
2:25:08the it's that it's the same thing again.
2:25:10I'm sorry. is yeah I need to say no no
2:25:13no new perspective no I need to say the
2:25:15ex I need yeah it's going to be it's the
2:25:17conversation from last week but but now
2:25:20again is that cool so
2:25:25the the the license giving people the
2:25:28license
2:25:31to be
2:25:33boring
2:25:36in their learning and in their need for
2:25:38support from people like I'm sick of
2:25:42moping about this situation and I have a
2:25:46friend that's prepared to sit in it with
2:25:48me. That feels really good
2:25:52to give more color to that that period
2:25:56because one of the things that Leila and
2:25:57I were talking about was she has a
2:26:00desire to make successful people more
2:26:02relatable so that people who don't have
2:26:04successful people around them can feel
2:26:06like it is attainable. Mhm.
2:26:08>> Um, so I'm going to add a handful of
2:26:11colors to that little chapter and
2:26:13hopefully people will be okay with it.
2:26:15Um, so in that in that time period, um,
2:26:19many people know this, but I got fired
2:26:22and so like who would fire Hermosi, the
2:26:24hardworking maniac? Well, I just wasn't
2:26:26that good of an employee. Um, and so I
2:26:29basically just read books all day
2:26:31instead of working. Um, and I read most
2:26:35of the self-help books that you've heard
2:26:36of. Um, hund00 million offers, $100
2:26:39million leads. Those were the books I
2:26:40kidding. I wasn't reading. [laughter]
2:26:45No, but I was reading, you know, and and
2:26:47to be fair, I don't think any one of
2:26:49them re I say like I can I can say a
2:26:52handful of them phrases in entire books
2:26:56stuck with me. Um, one phrase I heard in
2:26:59a book, can't remember which one it was,
2:27:00was want.
2:27:03And the phrase disgusted me so much
2:27:05because it was like, "Oh yeah, all those
2:27:06people who just want to be
2:27:07entrepreneurs." And it just said it
2:27:08flippantly. It wasn't even decrying the
2:27:10term. It just said like, "Oh, yeah. This
2:27:11is how we define these people who are
2:27:12like not there but like business
2:27:14interested
2:27:15>> and
2:27:16>> but the nonchalance is even more
2:27:17insulting."
2:27:17>> Exactly. And that's why and I was like,
2:27:19I'm that I am this disgusting thing. I
2:27:22don't want to be this. But that still
2:27:24wasn't enough to motivate. It was a
2:27:25negative operating. You know, it was
2:27:27negative, but it still wasn't enough.
2:27:29Um, I listened to Arnold's ladder of
2:27:33success speech that he gave. This is
2:27:35obviously 15, 16 years ago. Um, it was
2:27:38this speech. I found it on YouTube and I
2:27:40listen to it like every morning before I
2:27:42go to work.
2:27:43>> Um, you cannot climb the ladder of
2:27:46success with your hands in your pockets,
2:27:47you know. Um, and I listen to that every
2:27:51morning. I um I read uh Relentless by
2:27:55Tim Grover and it was basically the
2:27:57first book that I think gave me
2:27:58permission to use called The Dark Side
2:28:01>> to get things done. And I'd be like I
2:28:02would say now I don't necessarily
2:28:04operate 100% from that same perspective,
2:28:05but it was what I needed at the time.
2:28:08And I called a friend of mine, his name
2:28:11was Victor. He was considering quitting
2:28:12his job too. And so every night we
2:28:14basically just like planned and schemed
2:28:16of how we're going to our exit plan of
2:28:18how we were going to we just mentally
2:28:19masturbated the idea of like what
2:28:20freedom would be like if we actually
2:28:22left. And I would have this I you know I
2:28:24had to have an early Bluetooth thing
2:28:26which is a piece of [ __ ] now. Um and I
2:28:29remember I had this cowhide carpet in my
2:28:32apartment that I got from IKEA that the
2:28:34path that I would walk on while he and I
2:28:35would talk started getting treaded. Um,
2:28:37so there's this line in the middle of
2:28:38that in my house
2:28:39>> where I would pace
2:28:41>> and and the and so the things that that
2:28:45and I and I and I would have the lunch
2:28:48with my dad, the like, hey, I'm going to
2:28:50I'm going to quit my job and do my own
2:28:51thing. I didn't have that lunch one
2:28:53time. I had that lunch many times. And
2:28:56each time he would reasonably talk me
2:28:58off the cliff and say, listen, this is
2:29:00the boring chapter. You're just going to
2:29:01do your few years and then you're going
2:29:03to go to business school and like this
2:29:04is the plan. Um, and so it was very
2:29:07clear that I was following a path that
2:29:09was trod upon. And to be clear, my dad
2:29:11absolutely did what he believed was
2:29:12best. And I think his intentions were
2:29:13perfect. Um, and so all of these things
2:29:18were happening with me for me during
2:29:20that period of time. And I just remember
2:29:23having read as many self-help books as I
2:29:25could, you know, get my hands on. And
2:29:27then I looked around my room and
2:29:28apartment and realized that my life
2:29:29hadn't changed at all.
2:29:32And
2:29:33that was when I
2:29:37Googled online and decided I was going
2:29:39to start a business. I narrowed it down
2:29:40to three. And then one guy got back to
2:29:43me who had a gym. And even then when I
2:29:46had my first conversation with him, I
2:29:48was like, I really want to start a gym.
2:29:50He's like, so you don't have a gym? I
2:29:51was like, no. He's like, okay, well,
2:29:53basically, uh, you're going to need to
2:29:55like do something before I can help you.
2:29:57And he said, you need to make a serious
2:29:59commitment. Make a decision. So, I I
2:30:02thought about this for a while and then
2:30:04um a few weeks later I texted him. I
2:30:06said like, "I'm ready." And so, I called
2:30:08him back up again. He's like, "Well,
2:30:09okay, great. So, you have a lease.
2:30:11What's the you know, what's the" And I
2:30:12was just like, "Oh, oh, no, no, no. I
2:30:14don't have that." And he was and he was
2:30:16disgusted and he was like, "Lose my
2:30:17number, dude." Like, and he was
2:30:19disgusted by how little I had done in
2:30:23that meantime. And so, all of these
2:30:25things happened. It wasn't one of them.
2:30:27And so as much as I can say like I just
2:30:28read this one book and my life changed
2:30:30like sometimes you have to hear it a
2:30:33hundred times before it either sinks in
2:30:35or there's enough negative or enough
2:30:38positive or both that it gets you over
2:30:40whatever perceived threshold of action
2:30:41that you have. And so it was only when
2:30:44all of those things happened and I came
2:30:46to the realization and I also applied to
2:30:49business school cuz I was like what do I
2:30:50do in the meantime? So I was doing four
2:30:52hours of GMAT uh problems every day
2:30:54because I I was still violent then. um
2:30:57so that I could ace the GMAT and then I
2:30:59got above Harvard's midcore and then I
2:31:01was starting I was doing all the
2:31:02applications because it's something else
2:31:03that you can do that you can
2:31:04procrastinate with and so I did all the
2:31:05applications into business school and
2:31:07one of the questions that came up was
2:31:10how will uh a Harvard MBA or Booth MBA I
2:31:12can't remember help your short and
2:31:14long-term goals and I remember
2:31:17belaboring over this this question for 3
2:31:19days and I answered all the other
2:31:20questions and I was singing about it and
2:31:21I was like I don't think it is going to
2:31:23help my long-term goals because I looked
2:31:25at the math of Okay, it's going to cost
2:31:27me $120,000. This is at the time. Um,
2:31:30and I won't be able to make money for
2:31:31two years. So, I'm going to stop making
2:31:32money and it's going to cost me 120. And
2:31:34then the starting salary was 120 or like
2:31:36average starting salary post business
2:31:37school. And so, I thought to myself,
2:31:40could I take two years, $120,000,
2:31:44and within that period of time believe
2:31:46that I could get to the point where I
2:31:47could make $10,000 a month, but I would
2:31:49own a business rather than having a job
2:31:50to then maybe someday own a business.
2:31:52And I believed that that bet felt
2:31:54reasonable. And so even then you're
2:31:56like, "Okay, so that's when he quit."
2:31:58No. And so it was all of those things
2:32:01and then finally the realization that I
2:32:05that it was never going to get easier.
2:32:07And so then the fear that I was never
2:32:10going to start the business that I said
2:32:11I wanted to someday start.
2:32:14The fact that that that I actually had
2:32:16an exploding offer from life, which is
2:32:18that it was only going to get harder and
2:32:20that I realized how hard it had been for
2:32:22me to that point to still not have made
2:32:23a decision. And it was the fear that I
2:32:25was never going to make it which
2:32:26compelled me to make it.
2:32:29And that's what got me to pack all my
2:32:32[ __ ] drive my car halfway across the
2:32:33country, and then then and only then
2:32:35call everyone and tell them that I had
2:32:37left so they couldn't talk me out of it.
2:32:38And so if anyone is like, man, the so
2:32:42decisive hermosi or whatever, like it
2:32:44took a herculean effort and to to
2:32:49suspend a shitload of doubt and risk
2:32:50aversion. And also in terms of when I
2:32:53talk about this stuff with caring about
2:32:55what other people thought, I cared so
2:32:57much about every thought other people
2:32:59thought that I I knew that I cared so
2:33:00much about what other people thought
2:33:01that I wasn't even willing to hear them
2:33:03because I knew if I did hear them, they
2:33:04would talk me out of it.
2:33:06>> That's how fragile your conviction was.
2:33:08>> Yes.
2:33:08>> That one sentence from the wrong person
2:33:12moving you back in that past direction
2:33:14would have pulled you. I needed to
2:33:16physically create so much space that
2:33:18even if they had talked me out of it, it
2:33:20would still take me a day and a half to
2:33:21drive back. And so the reason I think
2:33:25you read one of the quotes earlier like
2:33:27if you want to change your life, change
2:33:28your environment is so powerful is that
2:33:32your environment as it currently stands
2:33:34right now, the combination of where you
2:33:36live, where your friends are, the
2:33:37routines that you have, the places you
2:33:39go have created loops of behavior for
2:33:41you. And so the best way to change what
2:33:44you're doing is change the entire
2:33:46environment. Like there's the the
2:33:47Vietnam War vets. They did this research
2:33:49study. You probably heard of it, but um
2:33:51all these guys did heroin when they were
2:33:52in Vietnam. It was like 25%. It was a
2:33:54gigantic percentage. And then weirdly
2:33:57when they came I think Clear talks about
2:33:58this in his book. Uh when they came back
2:34:01only 10% of the heroin users uh relapsed
2:34:05into heroin only. I mean but still it's
2:34:07it's small compared to heroin that's yes
2:34:09the success rate of or the failure rate
2:34:11of rehab institutions it's like 78%.
2:34:15>> So it had a 8x you know a difference in
2:34:19in in relapse rate but there wasn't even
2:34:22rehab that happened. The only thing that
2:34:23happened was that every single
2:34:25environmental cue was changed. And so if
2:34:28you are having trouble getting out of
2:34:30your current condition then get out of
2:34:32your current condition. Move. Go to a
2:34:35different city. Even if you can't move
2:34:37to a different city, move across town.
2:34:38Move 30 minutes away. Train at a
2:34:40different gym. Go to a different coffee
2:34:41shop to work.
2:34:42>> Yeah. Make different friends for the
2:34:43short period. And realistically, you
2:34:45probably won't make different friends.
2:34:46But just stop hanging out with the
2:34:47friends you got for a period. And if you
2:34:49decide that once you've gone through
2:34:50that session, that series, that chapter,
2:34:52you still want to be friends. If they
2:34:54are really your friends, they will
2:34:55welcome you back with open arms. If they
2:34:57only were friends with that version of
2:34:58you, then that's not the version of you
2:34:59that you want to be, and that's not
2:35:01where you want to go back to anyways.
2:35:02And so
2:35:05that was one of the trades that you made
2:35:06to become who you wanted to be.
2:35:07>> It's crazy that we think we can change
2:35:09our thinking environment whilst keeping
2:35:11our external environment the exact same.
2:35:13And we're going to just continue to use
2:35:17I don't know what what type of effort we
2:35:20think it is that we're applying to our
2:35:22own brain whilst experiencing the same
2:35:24cues and stimulus but hoping that our
2:35:28thinking is going to adapt.
2:35:30You have to change to change. And it
2:35:33sounds so like is that sound like a trit
2:35:35truism or whatever like cliche. Yeah.
2:35:37>> If nothing has changed, nothing will
2:35:39change. And so you have to be like
2:35:42something has to be the catalyst and you
2:35:44were the only like either you get in a
2:35:45car accident, your girlfriend breaks up
2:35:47with you, you can use the negative at
2:35:48least like if you are not happy with
2:35:50your life and then something bad happens
2:35:52to you, be grateful for it in the moment
2:35:54because it means that you a change a
2:35:56chaos variable has entered the building
2:35:59>> and that means that you have the ability
2:36:00for a short period of time before
2:36:01equilibrium gets reestablished that you
2:36:03can change [ __ ] without the same
2:36:05consequences because all of your loops
2:36:06got got muddled. Mh.
2:36:08>> And so like those are the periods of
2:36:09time where you can go through tremendous
2:36:10change because you're like well [ __ ] it.
2:36:13>> Everything that I thought to be true
2:36:14isn't. So what else uh that I think was
2:36:16false but isn't
2:36:18>> and then you can start moving towards
2:36:19it. Came across this line from beauty of
2:36:21SAS. It is an unwritten rule of life
2:36:24that after every prolonged period of
2:36:25hardship and uncertainty there is going
2:36:27to be a period where you achieve quantum
2:36:29leaps across multiple areas of your
2:36:31life. The only requirement is that you
2:36:33do not give up on yourself.
2:36:38>> [sighs and gasps]
2:36:40>> Failure and success are on the same
2:36:42road. It's just that failure is an
2:36:44earlier exit.
2:36:45>> Mhm.
2:36:46>> Mhm.
2:36:50What's that one about? Whatever you do,
2:36:52don't be the guy who gives up at the
2:36:53exact moment when you should be fighting
2:36:55with everything you have.
2:36:56>> You'll make it through either way, but
2:36:58there's only one way you'll look back
2:36:59and be proud of yourself.
2:37:04This is the metaphrame of the story that
2:37:06we one day tell. Like we tell stories of
2:37:08who of what type of person we are all
2:37:10day long when we're confronted with
2:37:11different decisions. What type of person
2:37:12am I? And
2:37:17I would like to be known to myself as a
2:37:19fighter is that I'm willing to fight for
2:37:22what I want and for what I believe in.
2:37:25And I think that
2:37:27and that is why I think I would want to
2:37:28have courage be the one thing that is
2:37:30transferred. M
2:37:31>> and I think it's because
2:37:34I'm going to go back to that season
2:37:35because I think it's where all of it
2:37:37like [gasps and laughter]
2:37:41I I was a really good student at
2:37:45Vanderbilt. I was vice president of the
2:37:48powerlifting team. I was president of
2:37:49the fraternity that I was in. I had a 38
2:37:52I think GPA. Um and I graduated in three
2:37:55years. But I was so afraid of not
2:37:58getting a job that I took the first job
2:38:00that I was offered from the first
2:38:02person, which was an introduction my dad
2:38:04had from a patient of his. And to be
2:38:06clear, so we were like, "Oh, it was a it
2:38:08was an epism." It wasn't a great job.
2:38:11But I was so afraid that I would be
2:38:13jobless that I just took that job. And I
2:38:16only say this to say that like
2:38:23like you can change your stars.
2:38:27like I was not the type of person who
2:38:29who does the types of things that I do
2:38:31now then and
2:38:37I I I I retell those stories.
2:38:40I don't talk about talk about them as
2:38:42much because um honestly I block most of
2:38:45them out because I was in so much pain
2:38:47during that period of my life. And the
2:38:50reason that I'm willing to keep making
2:38:52content and write books and all that
2:38:53stuff um is because I know that there is
2:38:57a another person
2:38:59who is going through a similar chapter
2:39:01and worried if they are sane or if it is
2:39:03only them and it is not.
2:39:06And so like
2:39:10you can't compare yourself to people who
2:39:12are different chapters. You just have to
2:39:14believe that you can change
2:39:15incrementally, one behavior at a time,
2:39:18over an extended period of time, and
2:39:20that those changes will aggregate, that
2:39:22they will stack up. Um,
2:39:26because like we don't know what the last
2:39:28chapter is going to look like. We only
2:39:29know what the next page does. And we get
2:39:31to write that today. And
2:39:34like I was
2:39:37I was so driven by fear. I was so I was
2:39:40so afraid of everything.
2:39:42um during that chapter and so it was
2:39:45like other people's opinions what if I
2:39:48fail what if this doesn't work out what
2:39:50if people make fun of me like I had all
2:39:51this this fear around it and like the
2:39:54emotionality that I have now towards it
2:39:56is because of the the
2:40:00a mix of of pity and pride that I have
2:40:04for that young man the young Alex that
2:40:08was going through that because
2:40:10I'm proud that I made made it through
2:40:12that, but I also pity the amount of pain
2:40:15that I was going through um to to to
2:40:18make that jump. And so
2:40:22I don't I don't know who's listening,
2:40:23but like
2:40:27fear can be useful if you know that you
2:40:30were driven by fear to some degree. And
2:40:33in some ways it's almost shameful to say
2:40:35it because it was the reason that that
2:40:38the word that I never want to be have
2:40:39used described for me is cowardly is
2:40:42because I behaved like a coward. I was
2:40:44afraid of everything. I was afraid of
2:40:46failing. I was afraid of my dad's
2:40:48judgment. I was afraid of of everything.
2:40:50And I the the flip that made it for me
2:40:55was just using that fear against
2:40:57something bigger was that I was more
2:41:00afraid of not of of looking back on my
2:41:03life and never having tried. And I knew
2:41:07that that would be so empty and I would
2:41:09be so filled with regret and that I knew
2:41:12that I would beat myself up over it
2:41:14every single day as I got older that
2:41:17that existence was was more terrifying
2:41:21to me than the practical consequences of
2:41:26me taking a step where I would fail. And
2:41:28it sounds it's very easy for me to say
2:41:30now to you or anyone who's listening
2:41:33like of course the downside's not that
2:41:34big. go to sleep on a friend's couch,
2:41:36whatever. But at the time for me, it was
2:41:40everything and it was all of the status
2:41:43that I had spent all of my time trying
2:41:45to accumulate. I was president of this,
2:41:46president of that. I'd done all the good
2:41:47grades. I had a good job on paper. Um,
2:41:51and so
2:41:53whatever fuel you have, whether it's
2:41:55anger, whether it's shame, whether it's
2:41:56fear, even if you have all of them, like
2:42:00if you know you have them,
2:42:03try and put them behind you to to get
2:42:07you to run away from it. If it's right
2:42:08now, it's in front of you and it's it's
2:42:10preventing you from taking the next
2:42:11step. And so it's like if you can just
2:42:13put it behind you so that you're running
2:42:15away from this this future. It's like
2:42:17run harder away from the future
2:42:21that your current path is taking you
2:42:22towards that you're afraid of than the
2:42:25short-term path that running away from
2:42:27it is going to run you into. It's like
2:42:29you either have to be, you know, uh it's
2:42:31like in
2:42:33I'm taking some liberties here. Um,
2:42:37it's like you can either fear the whip
2:42:39of the the person behind you or the
2:42:41enemy in front of you and the direction
2:42:43you face is the one that you fear the
2:42:45the least. [gasps]
2:42:47>> And so if you know that there's an enemy
2:42:49in front of you and a whip behind you,
2:42:50it's like you just need to in the short
2:42:52term increase the pain of the one that
2:42:54you want least.
2:42:56>> Have you seen Succession?
2:42:59>> Uh, the first season.
2:43:01>> Okay. So
2:43:01>> I don't watch it because it's too real
2:43:03for me. So, it's it keeps me up and like
2:43:06basically I get I get too like amped
2:43:07when I watch it because I like it, but
2:43:09I'm like I can't do this before bed.
2:43:10>> So, [laughter] I need like vampires and
2:43:13like
2:43:16in the final season, Tom is having a
2:43:19conversation with his wife and he says,
2:43:23"I wonder if the pain that I would feel
2:43:27without you
2:43:30would be less than the pain that I feel
2:43:32by being with you.
2:43:37And that seems to be what you're talking
2:43:39about here.
2:43:40>> It's 100% that. And I
2:43:42>> you talk in retrospect about that period
2:43:44about what that guy went through.
2:43:45Doesn't sound like pity to me. It sounds
2:43:47like grief.
2:43:48>> Sounds much closer to grief. Like
2:43:50somebody
2:43:52nearly died or did die or suffered a lot
2:43:54and didn't deserve it.
2:43:55>> Oh, I think that person totally died.
2:43:57Like the I don't want to say the man I
2:43:59was the boy that I was totally died. And
2:44:01I think I mean the hardest the hardest
2:44:04loss that I had to take was the the boy
2:44:06that I was in my father's eyes that was
2:44:08living up to his expectations which is
2:44:09all that I wanted.
2:44:12>> And so sacrificing that and it took
2:44:15years and my dad and I are cool. We're
2:44:17great but like for a for a season that's
2:44:20what I I I had to sacrifice that person
2:44:23and it was all I had wanted was to make
2:44:25him happy. And so and again no fault of
2:44:28his own but that is all I wanted. And so
2:44:31it's like I had achieve I had achieved
2:44:33the dreams that I had as a younger man
2:44:35and in so doing it had become my
2:44:36nightmare. And
2:44:40that's why the third point that that you
2:44:42read about no one is coming to save you.
2:44:44Everything is your fault and you have to
2:44:46sacrifice who you are for who you want
2:44:48to become. Um I think is so real for me
2:44:52is that you do and like like someone's
2:44:54dreams will die. It is yours or theirs.
2:44:58So, you just want to make sure that the
2:45:00person who is dreaming for you has
2:45:02bigger dreams for a life than you do.
2:45:04>> And sometimes well-intentioned people,
2:45:07because they want to be practical and
2:45:09they want to be realistic, have smaller
2:45:11dreams for you than you do. And if they
2:45:13have smaller dreams, then you should
2:45:15listen to you and not them.
2:45:18Obviously, your dad built a a story
2:45:20about what success looks like.
2:45:21>> Yeah.
2:45:22>> And you rejected it slowly but loudly. M
2:45:27>> now that you're about to have a child,
2:45:30what story are you going to tell that
2:45:31kid
2:45:33of of that period or no this story about
2:45:35what success looks like? Like how how
2:45:39certain are you that the story that you
2:45:42tell your son isn't just a new version
2:45:44of the same cage that you had to break
2:45:46out of?
2:45:48It's something that I think a lot about.
2:45:50Um how do I, you know, the the child is
2:45:54going to be born into
2:45:56by the time he has memory, he will be
2:45:59the son of a billionaire. That's
2:46:02that's a lot. Um,
2:46:08and in some ways I like don't wish that
2:46:09on anyone, but I'm and yet I'm bringing
2:46:11someone into that. Um, which has its own
2:46:15thought circles I won't get into. Um,
2:46:19but I am going to focus him to the
2:46:22degree that I can influence his
2:46:24behavior. um on
2:46:30on being courageous
2:46:34on leaving nothing on the field. I will
2:46:38care endlessly
2:46:40about his effort and very little about
2:46:43the outcomes
2:46:46assuming he controlled the
2:46:47controllables. and I will
2:46:52hold an incredibly high standard and it
2:46:55is because I respect him and believe in
2:46:59him and that he has the potential to
2:47:00achieve it. And what's been very
2:47:03difficult for me cuz I haven't I haven't
2:47:05fully defined this and maybe I will by
2:47:06the time he's born or by the time he's a
2:47:08little older is is I've had trouble
2:47:10trying to define what a successful
2:47:11parent looks like and what a successful
2:47:14child look like. Because if we decide if
2:47:17we define a successful parent by the
2:47:18output of the child, there's a whole
2:47:21hell of a lot of people that have had
2:47:22pretty tough parents that have turned
2:47:23out really good. But then does that mean
2:47:25that the parents are good or bad? I
2:47:27don't know. Um,
2:47:30and the successful child is the
2:47:31successful child that he is happy. I
2:47:34tend to reject that that definition
2:47:36overall. Is it that he has purpose? I'd
2:47:39probably prefer that. Um, because I
2:47:41think happiness can be fleeting. Purpose
2:47:43tends to stick a little longer. Um but
2:47:46at the very end of the day I think um
2:47:49character which I still just define as
2:47:50just huge sets of behaviors um
2:47:58I want [snorts] him to be brave and I
2:48:00want him to try his ass off and if he
2:48:03does that
2:48:04well no matter what he will be good
2:48:07enough for me but uh I will just more so
2:48:11make the commitment that given all the
2:48:12resources that I have both mental and
2:48:14and financial. Um, I will do the best I
2:48:17can with what I have um to give him the
2:48:19maximum possibility of achieving what he
2:48:22wants.
2:48:22>> Have you been thinking about life
2:48:24differently for yourself with the
2:48:26prospect of a kid on the way?
2:48:27>> Not really. Um, that might surprise some
2:48:29people, but like first off, I'm not
2:48:30pregnant and so I don't believe in the
2:48:32we are pregnant. Uh, I do not have a
2:48:34baby inside of my stomach. Uh, and so
2:48:37um, no, I haven't. Uh, my behavior
2:48:39hasn't really changed because my
2:48:40conditions haven't really changed. Um I
2:48:42suspect that when you know the child
2:48:44comes I will I will change accordingly.
2:48:47And I think that it's this is one of
2:48:48those I would say like uh internet straw
2:48:50mans of like well just wait till wait
2:48:53till the kid comes. I'll be like yeah
2:48:54and then I'll change like there'll be a
2:48:56new condition so I'll change to that.
2:48:57It's just like what if you change your
2:48:59mind then I'll change what I'm doing.
2:49:00You know it's just like this has worked
2:49:02for me so far and I'll probably take the
2:49:04things that continue to work and I'll
2:49:05probably adjust others. I don't think
2:49:07that having children in any way is going
2:49:09to get in the way of the goals that I
2:49:10have. Um, and my my my proof points are
2:49:13that the, you know, wealthiest, most
2:49:14successful business people in the world
2:49:16almost all have children. And so, like
2:49:20I see that as pretty strong proof that
2:49:22it's not something that that prevents
2:49:23you from achieving, you know, business
2:49:24success. And to be clear, business
2:49:26success for me is more so like I want to
2:49:27leave everything I have on the field.
2:49:28And if that results in growth, then
2:49:30great. If I have many seasons of
2:49:32hardship ahead of me, which I'm sure I
2:49:34do, and moments of plateaus and
2:49:36stagnation and things like that until I
2:49:37figure out whatever the next thing I
2:49:38have to do is or the next person I need
2:49:39to become or, you know, sets of behavior
2:49:40that I have to do, then that's that's
2:49:42the game. That's that's what I I sign up
2:49:44for that. I chose this. Um, but I also
2:49:46know exactly what I chose this what I
2:49:48traded this for, which was the the young
2:49:52boy uh and that life. And I would
2:49:56happily make that trade 100 times over.
2:49:57And so I in no way say that my life is
2:50:00perfect or anything. Far is far far from
2:50:01it. But it is the life I chose and I am
2:50:05okay with that.
2:50:06>> You talked about changing your
2:50:07environment often changing your
2:50:10>> desired outcomes.
2:50:12>> Going to be about as big of an
2:50:13environment change as you've had in uh a
2:50:16decade.
2:50:16>> Yeah. More.
2:50:17>> Yeah.
2:50:20>> I'm sure it will change me. And I
2:50:23>> What would be the most surprising
2:50:25outcome?
2:50:27I think the most surprising outcome is
2:50:29that I don't change at all.
2:50:30>> Right. I actually think that
2:50:32>> the second most surprising outcome.
2:50:34>> Um I'll I'll I'll say the outcome that
2:50:37might surprise other people the most is
2:50:39that I think there's a very real chance
2:50:41of a reality where like I work
2:50:43significantly less than I do now. Um
2:50:46because I prefer hanging out with the
2:50:47kid than I do working and if I do then
2:50:49that's what I will do. Is that a pathway
2:50:51of satisfaction that hasn't necessarily
2:50:55been [snorts] front and center of your
2:50:58life for quite a while?
2:51:00>> Uh basically being willing to enjoy a
2:51:01moment for the sake of the moment and
2:51:03nothing else. Um
2:51:04>> it's a less instrumental view. Yeah.
2:51:06>> A lot of your life and mine as well is
2:51:09very instrumental.
2:51:10>> Yeah.
2:51:10>> I will do it because I will do it
2:51:12because not I will do it.
2:51:14>> Yeah. Also because I enjoy it.
2:51:16>> Yeah. [laughter]
2:51:16>> But there's only one more step.
2:51:18>> Yeah. [clears throat] Yeah. Um,
2:51:21yes. And I think it's just because it's
2:51:22in accordance with values that I have.
2:51:23Like I want to be a good father and so I
2:51:25deem that a label that I would like to
2:51:27live up to and so I'm willing to make
2:51:29some trades.
2:51:30>> And I think that's I will I will be
2:51:33making trades in the future and I will
2:51:35try to make the trades the best I can.
2:51:36It interesting that after a decade and a
2:51:39couple of decades of contorting yourself
2:51:42into this very specific type of engine
2:51:44or a sort of a sort of monster that
2:51:46sucks in challenges and spits out
2:51:49completed tasks that to most people
2:51:54holidays sound like leisure but to a
2:51:56certain category of people holidays feel
2:51:58like work because they need to let go of
2:52:00the routine and pathway that they've
2:52:02sort of constructed themselves into.
2:52:05uh that there might be a lot of work
2:52:07required in order to be able to co-sleep
2:52:09with your kid at 3:00 in the afternoon
2:52:11with it laying on your chest reading
2:52:13fiction or not. You just lying staring
2:52:16at the ceiling thinking this is cool.
2:52:18Huh? That should be
2:52:22naturally, biologically, hormonally,
2:52:27energy expenditurally
2:52:29relatively seamless to do. And yet
2:52:31there's potentially going to be a ton of
2:52:34areas for growth in you there.
2:52:38>> I'm sure I'm sure that it will uh be a
2:52:42new challenge and uh I will dedicate my
2:52:46effort to succeeding at it
2:52:49>> the same way I do other challenges.
2:52:51>> Um and I'm sure I will be uncomfortable
2:52:54as I have been with other challenges.
2:52:56And I will try and meet that discomfort
2:52:58with action and let myself get used to a
2:53:01new reality. And I I will do my best to
2:53:06enjoy it every second of it because I
2:53:09mean I do look a lot at older guys who
2:53:12have kids. And I one of the really fun
2:53:13ones to look at is people who have
2:53:15second families. So they kind of like do
2:53:17>> first run, first wife, kids, whatever.
2:53:19And then take
2:53:20>> exit did the first business. How does he
2:53:22run the second one?
2:53:22>> Yeah, kind of. And so what's interesting
2:53:24is I've I've tried to observe what those
2:53:26guys do differently and almost to a man
2:53:29they'll say I should have spent more
2:53:31time with the kid and like and it's it's
2:53:33one thing to say that you you you should
2:53:36have. It's something very different to
2:53:39see them do it the second time around.
2:53:41Now there's the obvious of like well
2:53:44easy for them to say because they built
2:53:46the empire the first time and so like
2:53:47they get a doover
2:53:49>> that was collateral damage and getting
2:53:50to the point where they're sufficiently
2:53:51satisfied. I thankfully, knock on wood,
2:53:55whatever you want to do. Um, I I built
2:53:58what I needed to build to feel
2:54:01like I had a sufficient platform to
2:54:04provide for a child. Um, in all manners,
2:54:07both like my time flexibility. I work
2:54:08because I choose to, but like I have the
2:54:10flexibility and we cannot work whatever
2:54:12and and the kid can have whatever. the
2:54:14side effect of you working whether you
2:54:16chose to or not is a degree of material
2:54:18comfort and ticking off of the
2:54:20accomplishments that closes the loops
2:54:22around them.
2:54:23>> I think that um if I can live this
2:54:26season trying to steal as many chapters
2:54:29from people's second
2:54:32go
2:54:33>> I'll see that as
2:54:35a good idea and um I'll basically use
2:54:38that off of modeling like I'm just
2:54:40looking at what what good thing seems to
2:54:42happen for them. I'm going to try try
2:54:43that and I'll adjust as we go, but I'll
2:54:45probably use that as my base case
2:54:47baseline and then and I'll I'll I'll
2:54:50figure we'll figure it out together, you
2:54:51know.
2:54:52>> Well, I uh I have a little have a little
2:54:55>> ah
2:54:56>> something
2:54:59pending [laughter] loading.
2:55:01>> Yeah,
2:55:02>> loading competence.
2:55:03>> Yeah, it's very important that the
2:55:05baby's got good merch. So,
2:55:06>> it's all about the merch.
2:55:07>> Yeah,
2:55:08>> that's right. Well, this uh this spot on
2:55:11him is is uh we have a a retail price
2:55:13for the ad space, so I'll uh I'll let
2:55:14you know and then
2:55:15>> Okay, that's cool. I imagine I I assumed
2:55:17it would just be acquisition.com,
2:55:18[laughter] but
2:55:20>> front end of the funnel, front side of
2:55:22the baby.
2:55:23>> Yeah, it'll be like a NASCAR driver with
2:55:24all the sponsors. Yeah. Yeah. Uh if
2:55:27you're going to chase a dream, go all
2:55:29in. If you're going to love, love
2:55:31fiercely. If you're going to walk away,
2:55:33never look back. So many people never
2:55:36even give themselves a fighting chance
2:55:37because they never fully commit. If
2:55:40you're going to go, go all the way. Dot
2:55:43dot dot. No half measures. I was about
2:55:46to say no half measures. [laughter]
2:55:48Um I was like no know who wrote that. Um
2:55:53yeah, I think so many solutions are um
2:55:55aren't fully committed to and as a
2:55:56result they don't actually work and then
2:55:58we think oh this this path was wrong.
2:55:59This business was a bad idea. I
2:56:00shouldn't have started making content.
2:56:02um when it never had a fighting chance
2:56:05because we didn't even do close to the
2:56:06amount of volume that would be
2:56:07sufficient for it to work and not for
2:56:09nearly the duration that um would be
2:56:12required. And so it's like people don't
2:56:14do enough for long enough to get
2:56:16anything to work. And I think the
2:56:18biggest issue there is because we expect
2:56:19our dreams to be accomplished faster and
2:56:21easier and risk-f free when it will be
2:56:24hard, take a long time, and we will
2:56:26sacrifice more things than we expected.
2:56:28And I think one of the hardest parts
2:56:30about um accomplishing big things is
2:56:32that the cost is unknown. So even though
2:56:34it is more than you uh you know you're
2:56:36giving up some stuff, but you still
2:56:37don't even know everything that you're
2:56:38going to give up.
2:56:39>> It's like running a race and not knowing
2:56:40how long it is. I don't know where the
2:56:42finish line is.
2:56:43>> Yeah. And what's what's fascinating
2:56:45about that is that like if you know
2:56:46where the finish line is, you can
2:56:47usually handle just about anything. Um
2:56:49it's
2:56:50>> Uber works.
2:56:50>> Yeah.
2:56:51>> That's the re the main reason. Yeah. You
2:56:52can order a cab from anywhere and you
2:56:54don't need to work out the local taxi
2:56:55number and stuff. The main reason why it
2:56:56works is you know how far away the car
2:56:58is and know how long this weight is.
2:57:00Remember in the before times just ring a
2:57:03cab and it would just arrive.
2:57:06>> Yeah.
2:57:06>> At some point.
2:57:07>> Yeah. I think uh Roy Sullivan had the
2:57:10thing about the uh I think the tunnel uh
2:57:12this is your people's thing but you
2:57:14could see people complained about how
2:57:17long it took and they could either build
2:57:20another tunnel which would cost billions
2:57:21of dollars or they could do what they
2:57:23did which was just tell you how long you
2:57:24had to wait and it like solved all the
2:57:26concerns. [laughter]
2:57:26>> Right. It was um Heathro airport. Yeah.
2:57:30>> Uh Terminal 5. If anyone's ever taken a
2:57:32connecting flight inside of Terminal 5.
2:57:35It's mad how many times I've done that
2:57:37and it's always the same [ __ ]
2:57:38escalator. I don't know whether it's
2:57:39because I fly the same route or if
2:57:40that's just the one funnel to go up
2:57:43through internal security for the second
2:57:44time to briefly enter England before you
2:57:47then fly back out without actually being
2:57:48able to leave. And people were
2:57:50complaining about the fact that it was
2:57:52taking too long to get through security.
2:57:55And classic engineer problem, they
2:57:58decided we're going to get new detectors
2:58:01and we're going to speed up the conveyor
2:58:03belt and we're going to have an S-shaped
2:58:04queuing system which will spread people
2:58:06out into more fingers so that the
2:58:07security checking people can get them
2:58:09through and more expeditious just
2:58:11millions, hundreds of millions of
2:58:13dollars in reoperating costs. And Rory
2:58:17and his team are like, let's there might
2:58:18be there might be a cheaper solution.
2:58:20And they fixed it by just putting wait
2:58:24time posters
2:58:2615 minutes from here, 20 minutes from
2:58:27here, 25 minutes from here. And the wait
2:58:29time was always 5 minutes longer than
2:58:32the amount of time it took to get moving
2:58:33fast. Moving.
2:58:34>> Yeah, dude. We They said it was going to
2:58:35be 25. We went in 17. We got a bit of a
2:58:38bonus.
2:58:38>> Get some good time.
2:58:39>> Yeah, dude. That's why that's why his
2:58:40book's called Alchemy, right? Behavioral
2:58:42science applied well is kind of like
2:58:44magic.
2:58:45>> Yeah.
2:58:46>> Yeah. But
2:58:47>> yeah, the no half measures thing, dude.
2:58:49Like
2:58:52So much of the pain
2:58:54that people feel when it comes to
2:58:56decisions is in the indecision. Even in
2:58:59making the decision, it's the
2:59:00uncertainty when they do it. And this is
2:59:03what
2:59:04common
2:59:06optionality focused advice is, well, if
2:59:11the decision's reversible, then it it
2:59:13doesn't really matter so much, but you
2:59:16should treat reversible decisions still
2:59:17as if they're irreversible. And this is
2:59:20Brian uh David Epste's new work which is
2:59:24people are much happier with
2:59:27irreversible decisions than with
2:59:28reversible ones. For instance, if every
2:59:32jeans store that you went into did not
2:59:35allow returns or exchanges, you would be
2:59:37happier with your jeans. Even if you
2:59:39wanted to exchange them or return them,
2:59:41>> the kid store,
2:59:44>> you can't return the kid. So most people
2:59:46are very happy with their kids.
2:59:47[laughter]
2:59:48this is just
2:59:49>> you can't yeah I mean you can't you
2:59:50can't really go back and so it makes
2:59:52it's way less cognitive effort to just
2:59:53justify and rationalize that it was a
2:59:55good idea
2:59:55>> so I
2:59:57am an investor and a huge advocate of uh
3:00:02embryo selection through IVF and
3:00:03Herasite which is the company in the
3:00:05world that's best for this
3:00:08have just an endless list of
3:00:11philosophical justifications medical
3:00:13justifications biological justifications
3:00:15humanitary humanitarian justifications
3:00:18And I think that if you agree that
3:00:20trying to avoid disease is good, it
3:00:22scales all the way up to trying to
3:00:23increase robustness, which is pretty
3:00:24much any trait that you care to care
3:00:25about. The thing that I'm still yet to
3:00:29hear a compelling case in argument
3:00:32against is buyers remorse because if you
3:00:37have chosen
3:00:39this particular embryo out of a list of
3:00:4210 because this one had the particular
3:00:44diagnostic criteria and dashboard that
3:00:46you like to look up. Now, the thing
3:00:48that's weird is this is already
3:00:50happening by doctors cuz they look
3:00:51through the scope of the microscope and
3:00:53they go,
3:00:54>> "That one looks
3:00:55>> round. That one's it's a B C, right? You
3:00:58don't want the C's. B's probably not.
3:01:00You've got three A's, two A's in there.
3:01:01Let's try and implant this. One doesn't
3:01:02take one, whatever." Uh, so this was
3:01:04already being done and eyeball by the
3:01:06doctor, but even that wasn't your
3:01:08decision. So, you can maybe be angry at
3:01:10the doctor, but it's like, hey, look, we
3:01:11just took the advice of a professional
3:01:12here. We decided to do the thing. That
3:01:15is the one
3:01:17element that I wonder whether when this
3:01:19becomes more widespread whether we're
3:01:21going to see just a a little tweak.
3:01:24>> I don't think so.
3:01:25>> Okay. Just because I don't think the the
3:01:27like cuz it I think it would be more
3:01:28akin to um you go to the gene store and
3:01:31they show you uh maybe like a thread on
3:01:35a a a thing and maybe a dye and then but
3:01:40the genes that you get you still can't
3:01:42return. And so it's it's so far from the
3:01:44final product. If they had if you had
3:01:46six kids and you could only pick one and
3:01:47they were fully you and you could talk
3:01:49to them and then you're like but you
3:01:50can't go back. I think people might have
3:01:52more because you would have seen what
3:01:53the other
3:01:54>> Yeah. With the full with the full Yeah.
3:01:55>> Yeah. Don't stop trying because it
3:01:58didn't work. It never works the first
3:02:00time. It takes everyone a different
3:02:03amount of time to realize everyone is
3:02:05just thinking about themselves. No one
3:02:07was watching and you should have just
3:02:09done whatever the [ __ ] you wanted to all
3:02:10along.
3:02:13Yeah, look at old people.
3:02:16Like old people have it figured out.
3:02:18They're I mean
3:02:21my I did so my my my father's father
3:02:24died before I was co you know able to
3:02:27function. Um but my dad had called a
3:02:30father figure who functioned as a
3:02:31grandfather on on that side. And one of
3:02:35the things that I always admired about
3:02:36him was that he literally didn't have
3:02:39time for this.
3:02:41He's like, "I've got like 10 years. I
3:02:43literally don't have time for this."
3:02:44[laughter]
3:02:45And so his his his give a [ __ ] level was
3:02:48so low um that he just he walked through
3:02:52life
3:02:54unscathed by the worries that weigh down
3:02:58most people. Like, "Oh, I wonder if I
3:03:00said that uh too rudely to that per."
3:03:02It's he was just he was he was already
3:03:04on to the next thing. He's like I
3:03:05literally don't have time.
3:03:06>> That's the youth is wasted on the young
3:03:08thing.
3:03:08>> Yeah. But it's it's one of those like
3:03:11you
3:03:13I so funny you brought that up. I don't
3:03:16know if youth is wasted on the young. I
3:03:18think um you just have call it peak
3:03:22cognition and health state and you don't
3:03:23know anything besides like nothing hurts
3:03:25and everything works and then you just
3:03:28have a a slow degradation of everything
3:03:32works and nothing hurts until and then
3:03:34at the very end you just
3:03:36>> nothing works and everything [laughter]
3:03:37and everything hurts.
3:03:41>> Yeah. And I think that's just it.
3:03:43[laughter]
3:03:44There's definitely a a unique
3:03:48value in
3:03:53the future is long and broad that has
3:03:57equality all of its own that is only
3:03:59available to people that are young.
3:04:01>> Right? That is not nothing and it does
3:04:03not just exist inside of your head.
3:04:05You're able to make a a materially
3:04:08different type of plan when there is a
3:04:10long amount of time in front of you than
3:04:11when there is a short amount of time in
3:04:13front of you. assuming you don't die or
3:04:14something else happens.
3:04:15>> Of course, the or the probability
3:04:17distribution of you being able to
3:04:19fulfill these plans is different.
3:04:20>> And this is Bill Perkins thing about
3:04:23it's not memory dividend, but it's you
3:04:24can only do certain things at certain
3:04:26periods of life.
3:04:27>> A really great concept.
3:04:28>> Yeah. That uh going downhill skiing at
3:04:3280 is unlikely with your knees. I think
3:04:35he told me he's 50s
3:04:39and he said um he got offered the
3:04:41opportunity to go wakeboarding. Wake
3:04:44surfs a lot. He got the opportunity to
3:04:45to go wakeboarding
3:04:47uh year ago, a couple years ago and he
3:04:50didn't want to go. He was tired or
3:04:52something and then he realized thought
3:04:56this is probably one of the last times
3:04:57I'm ever going to be able to go
3:05:00wakeboarding. I don't think I'm ever
3:05:01going to be able to do this again. and
3:05:03um
3:05:05he did and that that very well might be
3:05:08it. There are certain things that you
3:05:09can only do at certain times and I think
3:05:11what we're trying to do and it's
3:05:13interesting about that cliche
3:05:15line,
3:05:17unteable lessons. uh we we choose to
3:05:21learn the hard lessons the hard way. And
3:05:22what we're all trying to do is get as
3:05:25many cliches into our experience in
3:05:28order to be able to skip over the most
3:05:31well-known pitfalls of the ages
3:05:33ourselves. Like we're trying, we know
3:05:35that it's coming. We know it's going to
3:05:36happen.
3:05:38For some reason, we refuse to learn by
3:05:40the doing of others. We have to choose.
3:05:42We we we decide to do it ourselves.
3:05:43We're trying to like pick up.
3:05:46We're trying to embibe the most
3:05:50commonly held wisdom that is least
3:05:53absorbed by everybody. Money won't make
3:05:56you happy. Fame won't fix your self
3:05:58worth. You don't love that hot girl.
3:05:59She's just pretty and difficult to get.
3:06:01You should see your parents more.
3:06:03Nothing is as important as you think it
3:06:05is when you're thinking about it. All of
3:06:07your worries were a waste of time.
3:06:11We're just trying to
3:06:13the mountain of evidence and exposure is
3:06:16greatest and our ability to it's like a
3:06:18it's a some sort of macronutrient which
3:06:21is unbelievably pervasive and
3:06:23unbelievably hard to absorb like you can
3:06:25ingest tons and tons of it but for some
3:06:27reason and what we're trying to do is
3:06:28find the enzyme or the particular way to
3:06:31cook this thing so that we are able to
3:06:33finally absorb it but yeah uh
3:06:37it takes everyone a different amount of
3:06:39time to realize everyone is just
3:06:41thinking about themselves no one was
3:06:42watching and you should have just done
3:06:43whatever the [ __ ] you wanted to all
3:06:44along. Like that is every old person
3:06:47ever telling you that. It's just a case
3:06:49of okay, how quickly can I believe that
3:06:52the people all of the old people are
3:06:54right? Cuz it's one of two things is
3:06:55true. Either all old people have arrived
3:06:59at a similar sort of insight, which is
3:07:01that one, or they've all been inducted
3:07:05into some sort of SCOP
3:07:08cult to lie to younger people about the
3:07:12same coordinated false flag in order to
3:07:15get them to do something. I don't know.
3:07:17>> I think so. So each of the isms that you
3:07:20just said to me is a clear behavior loop
3:07:24where there is a super strong short-term
3:07:26reinforcer and a very long long-term
3:07:29one. And so almost all of those are
3:07:32things that you would opt for in the
3:07:34short term. And so until you have a
3:07:37strong thing that tells you that that is
3:07:39wrong, the other magnet is just too
3:07:41strong to resist for the vast majority
3:07:43of people. And I would also imagine that
3:07:45the the older folks have a much closer
3:07:47proximity to death, which I mean, when
3:07:50you see one or two people die, it can it
3:07:52can affect you. When you see like a lot
3:07:54of people die and the good ones and the
3:07:56bad ones and the in-betweens, all of a
3:07:58sudden you're like, "Wait." Because I
3:08:00think like when you go through death or
3:08:02someone close to you dying, I think one
3:08:04of the most jarring pieces of death is
3:08:06how quickly everyone else moves on and
3:08:08how everyone just keeps operating as
3:08:10though that person never existed. And of
3:08:12course there's the like I always
3:08:13remember you know XYZ person and of
3:08:15course that's fine but like the world
3:08:18moves on and I think when you see that
3:08:20happen at times unless you are
3:08:22completely delusional you assume that
3:08:23they will that it will move on from you
3:08:25and then I think what it does is it
3:08:27creates this huge this this gigantic
3:08:29pill of humility that I think older
3:08:31people have. Not all older people of
3:08:32course there's there's oddballs but like
3:08:34I think by and large old people are
3:08:37significantly less competitive. There's
3:08:39less ego, I would say, as a as a class.
3:08:43They're more like that's a young man's
3:08:45game. Like, I don't I don't want to.
3:08:47Basically, they just choose not to play
3:08:49at a lot of the status games and things
3:08:50like that because they've just seen
3:08:51people with the best status and the
3:08:53worst status, they all die the same and
3:08:54everyone moves on just the same. And so,
3:08:56I think they they shift more to more
3:08:58being present because also they could
3:09:00die soon, too. I think that's one of the
3:09:02reasons why seeing somebody who is old
3:09:05playing a game that they should have
3:09:07transcended gives us a sort of a sense
3:09:09of like we wse a bit. The
3:09:11>> it's like cringe almost.
3:09:12>> The the businessman who is in his 60s
3:09:15still attending every high-powered
3:09:18conference who already has done the exit
3:09:20as many times as is needed trying to win
3:09:23the validation of the same group of
3:09:26people who have cycled through a bunch.
3:09:27He never he never exit. It's like being
3:09:29stuck on the level of a video game whose
3:09:31boss you defeated.
3:09:33>> Yeah.
3:09:33>> And just going back and running it back
3:09:35again because maybe this time it would
3:09:36be different.
3:09:36>> Yeah. I think Arthur Brooks talked about
3:09:37this with like uh like from strength to
3:09:40strength in that book or like the second
3:09:42like everyone has to make this leap from
3:09:44first level of fluid intelligence, high
3:09:46energy, high work ethic to at some point
3:09:49you make the second jump and some people
3:09:51don't and then it just becomes this
3:09:53kermagins these very miserable older
3:09:54people and he's like you have to make
3:09:56this leap where you switch the way you
3:09:57work. But you're not an old person is
3:09:59not going to beat a young person at
3:10:00being young,
3:10:01>> right? And that's and that's where
3:10:02people and that's where I think some of
3:10:03that cringe and it happens on both
3:10:04sexes, men, you know, men men and women.
3:10:07>> Uh the you know, the six-year-old woman
3:10:08who's trying to pretend like she's 20,
3:10:10like it's
3:10:10>> Yep. Yeah. There's something there, too.
3:10:12If you're nervous, do more. It's hard to
3:10:15be nervous when you've practiced the
3:10:16same thing a thousand times in a row.
3:10:19When in doubt, stack reps. Anything you
3:10:22start, you will suck at. It will be
3:10:24embarrassing, but you will survive. Then
3:10:26you will realize that looking like a
3:10:27fool lasts a moment. Being one that
3:10:29never started lasts a lifetime.
3:10:32>> I think people wildly underestimate the
3:10:34value of accumulating significant enough
3:10:37volume that it's no longer something
3:10:39that you have a reaction to. So you
3:10:40desensitize yourself to it.
3:10:42>> Um and so like for example
3:10:44>> exposure therapy. And so if you if you
3:10:46if you give a speech and you're nervous
3:10:48about the speech, if you do it enough
3:10:50times that you are bored of doing it,
3:10:52that you are sick of the presentation,
3:10:55you're probably ready. And so I
3:10:58>> How many times did you do the book
3:11:00launch?
3:11:01>> Over a hundred. Easily. Easily over a
3:11:04hundred. Um it was a lot. But but by the
3:11:09time that it happened, I was like, I
3:11:11know what the next slide like I had
3:11:13words on the slides, but I knew what the
3:11:14slide was going to say because my my
3:11:16words started started them before the
3:11:18words appeared on the slide. Um, and
3:11:21that is that has just become my limus
3:11:23test because I like I said earlier like
3:11:26I definitely cared a lot about what
3:11:29people thought. And so you can do the
3:11:31very hard work of not caring what people
3:11:33think or you can do so much work that
3:11:36there's nothing left to control. Like if
3:11:38you've controlled the controllables then
3:11:39I think at least for me personally my my
3:11:42anxiety levels around performance and
3:11:44things like that go down to essentially
3:11:46zero because it's like I have done this
3:11:47before and before I did both launches
3:11:49cuz I've had them I've done two big ones
3:11:51now. The first one that I did, I did at
3:11:54a venue and the the woman who like kind
3:11:56of ran the whole thing, she's like she
3:11:58had people going on stages and all the
3:11:59time and she said something right before
3:12:01I got on stage. She said, "You were the
3:12:03most calm out of any person that I have
3:12:04seen." And I just remember looking at
3:12:06her in the moment and I was like, "I I
3:12:08have done this before." And I said it a
3:12:11little bit violently, but I was just
3:12:12like, "This is not my first time doing
3:12:14this." Like, I will do exactly what I
3:12:16did the last 20 [ __ ] times I did
3:12:18this, and that is all I will come. I
3:12:21will do my job. And I just that's why
3:12:25I'm a big fan of the the Patriots under
3:12:26Belich like like do your job. Like you
3:12:29cannot control everything. Do the things
3:12:31you can control. And it just it takes so
3:12:34much of the anxiety and the second loops
3:12:36of thinking and third order consequences
3:12:37that you're worried about out of your
3:12:38mind because that is it. And so if you
3:12:42if there's a lot of stakes
3:12:44do so much volume that it would
3:12:46unreasonable that you fail. And then at
3:12:47that point, if you do fail, you will not
3:12:49blame yourself because you're like, I
3:12:50did my part and that's okay and next
3:12:53time I'll try and control the things
3:12:54that are outside.
3:12:55>> And the judgment of other people becomes
3:12:57less scary because your likelihood of
3:12:58failure becomes lower overall and less
3:13:01culpable to you.
3:13:03>> Yeah.
3:13:03>> In uh
3:13:06uh admission. People think after they
3:13:08fail, they think to themselves like,
3:13:09"Oh, I I should have done this
3:13:11differently. I should have done that
3:13:12differently." It's like, well, think
3:13:13about what you're going to say when you
3:13:14fail and then do that before you fail
3:13:17and you probably won't fail. That's why
3:13:20I think people feel so agrieved when
3:13:23something happens that was out of their
3:13:25control when they'd done everything cuz
3:13:28it is going to suck if there is a
3:13:31lightning strike in Vegas and you go,
3:13:33"For [ __ ] sake, dude. I worked so
3:13:35hard. I worked so hard. Everything was
3:13:37done." Yes, it's not your fault, but
3:13:39there's a it's not that frustration
3:13:41won't come and that you won't be
3:13:42agitated at it.
3:13:43>> It's a different flavor. And it's
3:13:45certainly better than blaming yourself,
3:13:47but it's
3:13:50[gasps]
3:13:50[sighs]
3:13:51like I think about, you know, botched uh
3:13:55pediatric surgery, something like that.
3:13:57You know, you got the kid that had been
3:14:00in the traffic accident to the hospital
3:14:02on time, but that surgeon that
3:14:05particular day just wasn't paying the
3:14:06right amount of attention or whatever
3:14:08happened. And then there's, you know,
3:14:09there's some bad outcome.
3:14:12[ __ ] Like, we did everything. We did
3:14:14everything. and we did everything is
3:14:18reassuring
3:14:20but it there is a type of lack of
3:14:23control that comes along with that that
3:14:25must be also very difficult to deal with
3:14:27the same for
3:14:28>> business launches and everything else.
3:14:30>> So two fun things there. So, one, people
3:14:33don't know this, but the day before the
3:14:36launch, the last one, um I had someone
3:14:40filed a TTRO, which is temporary
3:14:42restraining order to try and prevent me
3:14:43from launching the book.
3:14:45Let's just say an adversary. And the
3:14:48hearing for the whether I could do the
3:14:51book launch was at 4:00 on Friday for a
3:14:54launch that I'd spent $10 million on and
3:14:57almost two years of my life plus the
3:14:59other books leading up to this, right?
3:15:01And so at 4:00 there was going to be a
3:15:04decision. Obviously it was dismissed,
3:15:05but like there was a world where I was
3:15:08not going to be able there's a parallel
3:15:11universe where I wasn't going to be able
3:15:12to launch the book.
3:15:12>> What time did you launch the bug?
3:15:14>> 9:00 a.m. Saturday,
3:15:15>> right?
3:15:17>> Like tight. [snorts]
3:15:18>> Did you have to attend the hearing?
3:15:20>> No, I had my my my council do it. Um,
3:15:22but what was interesting is that when
3:15:24like when they when they told me that we
3:15:26that it was dismissed and that we had
3:15:27won or whatever, I um my honest reaction
3:15:31was like darn it would have been a
3:15:32sicker story. Like I swear to God
3:15:35because I already was like this book is
3:15:37so good people want to make it illegal.
3:15:39Like it would have been like the
3:15:40marketing would have written itself. Um
3:15:42but anyways I say that say like one is
3:15:45like I'm a big believer from a
3:15:47marketer's perspective you should never
3:15:48waste a crisis and that means that
3:15:49there's always a story to tell and
3:15:50you're the best person to tell it to.
3:15:52The second one is that um especially
3:15:54with a kid coming uh I call them like
3:15:56getting kicked in the nuts type problems
3:15:58which is if if toddler wakes up and then
3:16:02decides to you know if I let's say I had
3:16:04something that was super valuable and
3:16:05very fragile finds it and then destroys
3:16:08it and it's you know a year and a half
3:16:10you know year and a half old or two
3:16:11years old
3:16:12in that moment there is nothing that I
3:16:16can I can't there's no screaming there's
3:16:18no punishing it doesn't comprehend
3:16:20what's going on all I would do is
3:16:21condition it to hate me if I were to
3:16:23punish it in that moment. And so I just
3:16:26have to suffer. Like there's there's
3:16:28nothing to do there. You just suffer.
3:16:30And you can try and avoid it and put it
3:16:31elevated. Of course, control the
3:16:32control, but let's assume that you did
3:16:34that and it still happened. Um and but I
3:16:37think there's a certain amount of peace
3:16:39knowing that like you did what you could
3:16:42and
3:16:44[ __ ] happens. Like there's just nothing
3:16:45you can do. There's just nothing you can
3:16:48do.
3:16:49And I think in some ways that's very
3:16:50frank. Like [ __ ] happens to everybody.
3:16:55It's interesting how
3:16:58I think about this when I watch uh
3:17:00people perform, especially people that
3:17:02have become very familiar with their
3:17:03craft. So
3:17:05people
3:17:07leak out who they are in the breaths in
3:17:11between the things that they're doing.
3:17:13Hm.
3:17:15Somebody's character is not revealed
3:17:16with how they pick you up on the first
3:17:18date, but it's how they treat the
3:17:20waiter, whether or not they hold the
3:17:21door open for somebody else who goes in.
3:17:24And I think about this when I see
3:17:25performers on stage, the watching a band
3:17:28this year and seeing the drummer who is
3:17:32playing and his stick breaks and while
3:17:35he's playing the particular beat, he
3:17:37just seamlessly switches. this hand
3:17:39reaches behind him, picks up another
3:17:40one, twills it twice, and then gets back
3:17:42to it. Now, that that is something that
3:17:43you have done 10,000, 20,000, 30,000
3:17:47times. It's got nothing to do with the
3:17:49actual role of playing the drums, not
3:17:52the skill or the talent of playing the
3:17:53drums, but it's the breath in between
3:17:55what he does. And I think about the same
3:17:59here with
3:18:02easy for anybody to look composed when
3:18:04things are going well or even when
3:18:06things are going neutral, but it's very
3:18:08exposing when things go poorly about
3:18:10their character. It's the breath in
3:18:11between the big thing. It's you going,
3:18:14well, what I'm here to do is give the
3:18:15presentation for the book. Okay. Well,
3:18:17how do you deal with a TTRO the night
3:18:19before, right?
3:18:21>> That's the reach behind. Can I keep
3:18:23going? I see it as um
3:18:26I actually so to to and this is not to
3:18:29pop the the bubble of romanticism around
3:18:30it because I do think that's really
3:18:31elegant. Um it's just how you behave
3:18:34under different conditions and so if we
3:18:36see personality is how you behave in the
3:18:38aggravative conditions. It means that
3:18:39you can behave under perfect conditions
3:18:40and you can't behave under imperfect
3:18:42conditions which means that you need to
3:18:43practice behaving in imperfect
3:18:44conditions so that you can behave the
3:18:45same way. And so again, part of the
3:18:47reason I think of having so much
3:18:48practice uh being basically being a
3:18:51proxy for the preparation is that you
3:18:52will have been exposed to so many
3:18:53different conditions that none of them
3:18:55>> what happens when the clicker stops
3:18:56working.
3:18:57>> Exactly. And I had that happen during
3:18:58one of them. Uh one of my practice I had
3:19:00two the two times I had the clicker
3:19:01stopped working. So I was like, "Oh, am
3:19:02I going to do that?" Like it didn't
3:19:03happen. We were live. Um one of the
3:19:05issues
3:19:05>> had it have happened, you've already run
3:19:06that,
3:19:07>> right? We we figured that out. I had
3:19:09another run where um I had the the case
3:19:11of the book stuff and then it all fell
3:19:13over. Um, I had I had I I had one where
3:19:16like I put it they they were backwards.
3:19:17They were like upside down or whatever.
3:19:19So like on the camera.
3:19:20>> Tell me about that.
3:19:21>> So there's there's there's all these
3:19:23different permutations that like it's
3:19:24like you can you can you can decrease
3:19:26the likelihood of failure if you try and
3:19:27get all the failures out before you
3:19:28actually before it counts.
3:19:29>> And I think that's like at least for me
3:19:31how I approach performance is how do I
3:19:33get all the failures out of the way so
3:19:35that I have the highest likelihood of
3:19:36succeeding uh when when the time that
3:19:38matters counts.
3:19:39>> I wonder if Elon intended to do that
3:19:41with the Cybert truck. How many times
3:19:42have you tried to throw that steel ball
3:19:45at the window of a cybert truck?
3:19:46Presumably not. None.
3:19:48>> Yeah,
3:19:48>> presumably it's happened before. You
3:19:50just get a little bit over excited with
3:19:51too much adrenaline and launch it with
3:19:53too heavy of an arm. Yeah, you'd be
3:19:56surprised how far you can get by only
3:19:58knowing what you want and not accepting
3:20:00anything else until you get it.
3:20:04>> So, we've talked about commitment and
3:20:05and and decisions a lot. Um I find it
3:20:08interesting like decisions the the root
3:20:09of that from Latin is decadere which is
3:20:11to cut off and commitment is the
3:20:14elimination of alternatives and so
3:20:15they're almost like you know cousin
3:20:16cousin words in terms of their meaning.
3:20:18Um but by definition
3:20:22if you are the most focused person in
3:20:24the world then you would have nothing
3:20:25but the one thing that you focus on. If
3:20:27you're the most uh focused reader in the
3:20:29world you would only read. You would not
3:20:31drink. You would not sleep. You would
3:20:32not eat. You'd be the most focused
3:20:33reader in the world. Anything that is
3:20:34not reading is making you less focused.
3:20:36And so if you know what you want, which
3:20:38I think is for many people more
3:20:40difficult because it's not knowing what
3:20:41they want, it's deciding all the things
3:20:43they're willing to give up in order to
3:20:45get what they want because what you want
3:20:46is what you're willing to sacrifice for,
3:20:48right? And so if we want multiple
3:20:49things, which one of the things that we
3:20:50still want are we willing to sacrifice
3:20:52for the one that we want more. And I
3:20:54think if you get clear on the thing that
3:20:55you're willing to sacrifice other things
3:20:56for that you're willing to put all those
3:20:58things on the altar to sacrifice for the
3:21:01one thing life gets to our point earlier
3:21:03about simplicity much easier because you
3:21:06have a singular lens to make all
3:21:07decisions through. Kobe was notorious
3:21:09for like does this make me a better
3:21:10basketball player? That was it. It just
3:21:13every decision was filtered through that
3:21:15lens and so it makes decision-m
3:21:17incredibly easy. And so the amount of
3:21:19mental bandwidth that you get back
3:21:22is all of it. Um but the the hard part
3:21:25for most people is making the decision
3:21:27that this is what they want. Um not once
3:21:30you made the decision
3:21:32>> sticking following through.
3:21:32>> Yeah. It's the elimination of
3:21:33alternatives, not the continued
3:21:36commitment to the thing which is none of
3:21:38the alternatives.
3:21:39>> We tal like there's tons of stuff on
3:21:40productivity for like switching costs
3:21:41being you know horrendous. But I think
3:21:43that what is not talked about enough is
3:21:46basically the cost of switching desires.
3:21:49Like you're you're switching wants.
3:21:51>> Yeah.
3:21:51>> And and the the the amount of time and
3:21:54effort that gets wasted in the loops of
3:21:58making the decision and then yearning
3:22:00for the cost of that decision that you
3:22:02already said was worth it. So, one of
3:22:04the things that's been really helpful
3:22:05for me for big life decisions when I
3:22:06have, I would say, conflicting
3:22:07priorities, like multiple things that I
3:22:09want, is when I make the call, I'll
3:22:11usually write out a document that
3:22:13explains all of the reasoning in its
3:22:15it's an it's an it's an in its totality
3:22:18so that I don't So, one, if I if I if I
3:22:21have this moment of doubt again, I
3:22:23revisit it and then I read it again and
3:22:24then it basically closes the loop almost
3:22:26instantly. And so, rather than have
3:22:28these endless thought loops, I'll have
3:22:29one or two, I'll reread it and then it
3:22:32kind of goes away. And this is
3:22:34especially on on the relational side. If
3:22:36you let's say you had a breakup or
3:22:37something like that and you're like or
3:22:38maybe you were the one who did the
3:22:39breakup and you know you could get them
3:22:40back but you don't know if it was the
3:22:41right decision blah blah blah like
3:22:43writing out every reason that you did it
3:22:46because you forget. And this is the
3:22:48whole point about punishment fades and
3:22:49reward sticks is that in the moment of
3:22:50pain after she comes back and she's
3:22:52crazy, you have to remind yourself of
3:22:55all the [ __ ] of all the things that you
3:22:57know you will forget. So it's almost
3:22:58like you're writing a warning letter to
3:23:00your future self of like don't forget
3:23:02about this. Remember the time she keyed
3:23:03your car? She did it again. Right? Like
3:23:05you have to put all those things down so
3:23:06that when you're in that moment of
3:23:08nostalgia looking back, you know what?
3:23:09Those were the good old days. You know,
3:23:10she wasn't so bad. Maybe I was being a
3:23:12little bit uh unreasonable. You can read
3:23:14again. You're like, "Oh my god, I can't
3:23:15believe thank god I I made that call."
3:23:17But that way, you don't actually have to
3:23:18then waste the next six months
3:23:19relearning the same mistake again
3:23:21because you already documented in an
3:23:23artifact.
3:23:24>> That's called borrowed authority
3:23:25exercises.
3:23:26>> Borrowed authority, but instead of
3:23:28borrowing it from someone else, you're
3:23:29borrowing it from a past version of you.
3:23:30M yeah,
3:23:31>> I like that.
3:23:32>> Yeah. Yeah. The the fading affect bias
3:23:34thing is pretty fascinating. Adam
3:23:35Masriani says that
3:23:38uh tragedy plus time equals comedy is
3:23:40the closest thing that exists as a
3:23:43formula in human psychology. Tragedy
3:23:45plus time equals comedy. Like some stuff
3:23:48that was kind of horrendous in the past
3:23:51over a long enough time horizon becomes
3:23:54neutral or hilarious and some stuff
3:23:56sticks about as bad, but even the bad
3:23:57isn't as bad. But yeah, it's a tragedy
3:24:00plus time equals comedy is kind of true.
3:24:03And I think that's one of the reasons
3:24:04why Gallow's humor that uh soldiers use
3:24:08when they're away that was talking to
3:24:09this British SAS guy and he got one of
3:24:13his teammates got friendly fired in the
3:24:15ass uh by a misfire from someone's
3:24:17handgun and they're in the middle of a
3:24:20firefight surrounded by enemy
3:24:22combatants. They're now going to have to
3:24:24get this guy out of there. That guy is
3:24:25not going to be able to fight anymore.
3:24:26They're going to have to sub someone in
3:24:27for the team. Maybe this means everybody
3:24:29everyone just started laughing. It's
3:24:32like for [ __ ] sake, everyone laughed.
3:24:35Like I I do get the sense that trying to
3:24:37bring forward humor as a tool. How do
3:24:39you think about that? Like you serious
3:24:42guy take up a suit uh with a um an
3:24:46existential level of of
3:24:49drive. How do you think about the role
3:24:52of humor? So, it's funny that you even
3:24:54said serious guy because like I would
3:24:55say I'm serious on this podcast because
3:24:56we talk about serious things, but like
3:24:58um if you were to talk to my team like
3:25:02the recording studio is a not PG zone.
3:25:05It is not like everyone knows there's
3:25:06two places HR is not allowed. One is
3:25:08where I record and the second is the gym
3:25:10and like there's just no HR allowed. I
3:25:12just got to deal with whatever side of
3:25:14[laughter] me. Um, but if you were to
3:25:15look at my newsfeed right now, it is
3:25:17entirely standup comedy. And so I'm
3:25:19probably closeted or not not like I'm a
3:25:23I'm a huge stand-up fan. I it's almost
3:25:25all that I consume. And it's because I
3:25:27think that comedians are modern day
3:25:28philosophers. Um, they point out these
3:25:31apparent truths that we don't want to
3:25:33look at. and some comedians,
3:25:34>> some and but what's interesting about
3:25:36comedy specifically is that
3:25:38>> most of the time they say statements
3:25:42that they would be punished for saying
3:25:45in any other condition than on stage.
3:25:48And so comedy gives this veil of
3:25:50protection, which I think we need to
3:25:51protect. um
3:25:54for them to say things that like if you
3:25:56think about comedy at the most basic
3:25:57level for like a human, kids can laugh
3:25:59when they see someone do something they
3:26:01should get punished for but not get
3:26:03punished. So you see Roadrunner get
3:26:04smashed with a hammer or whatever um and
3:26:06then they laugh, right? Or you see, you
3:26:08know, Three Stooges, like you know,
3:26:10whatever. And so it's slapstick because
3:26:11that's the level of humor that a child
3:26:13can understand, but it's basically
3:26:14punishment avoided.
3:26:15>> And so we laugh. And so when somebody
3:26:18goes up there and says something they
3:26:19should get punished for, they should get
3:26:20bonked on the head, but they don't, we
3:26:22laugh. And so I find that like
3:26:24endlessly. I mean, I laugh um a lot. So
3:26:28uh I don't remember the question was,
3:26:30but yeah, I'm a big fan of comedy.
3:26:32>> Yeah, it was uh what's the role of
3:26:34comedy in
3:26:36manipulating
3:26:38using using humor as a tool, I guess, in
3:26:41that way. But I the ability to dispel
3:26:44this thing feeling serious. Yeah,
3:26:47>> by laughing at it is kind of magical.
3:26:50>> It's like the bogurt in Harry Potter.
3:26:52Like, how many of my big fears can I
3:26:54just laugh about how funny this will be
3:26:56soon?
3:26:57>> Uh, and if I can pull if I think it's
3:26:59going to be funny eventually, I might as
3:27:00well think it's going to be funny today.
3:27:02>> That's a [ __ ] great archive poll to
3:27:05think about the boat in in Harry Potter,
3:27:07which is how you do it. It's to make it
3:27:09look silly. this is the thing that you
3:27:10are most scared of and the way that you
3:27:13get it to [ __ ] off is to turn it into
3:27:15something hilarious.
3:27:16>> I still remember the first time I
3:27:17learned about this. I was probably 11.
3:27:19Um my friend um we were on this road
3:27:23trip and he
3:27:25>> at 11.
3:27:26>> Yeah. Well, I was there were parents who
3:27:28were driving. Yeah. But there's there's
3:27:30him and his brother, right? Yeah. We
3:27:31were just crushing crushing life. And um
3:27:35and right before the road trip, he uh
3:27:38they had just picked um like those those
3:27:41yellow cherries, whatever those are. You
3:27:43know, the little they're like cherries,
3:27:44but they're yellow and red, like golden
3:27:46cherry. They look like golden apples,
3:27:47but they're whatever. They're cherries.
3:27:48Some sort of cherry. And they just
3:27:50picked them from like the tree that had
3:27:52just gone ripe, whatever. And there was
3:27:53a whole bowl of them, and he had all of
3:27:55them. Uh and then we went in the car to
3:27:58go on this road trip. And about an hour
3:28:01into the trip, he's like, "I I I need to
3:28:05go to the bathroom." And they were like,
3:28:06"Well, we're not there yet. Like, we'll,
3:28:07you know, we'll stop at the next
3:28:08bathroom." He's like, "No, no, like I I
3:28:10really need to go to the bathroom." And
3:28:12so, they had to pull over to this like
3:28:14small town that had nothing. And they
3:28:16literally knocked on doors to see if
3:28:17someone would let an 11-year-old kid uh
3:28:20in. And so, there was an old lady who
3:28:22said yes through a window. I couldn't
3:28:24even make this up. and we had to go
3:28:25through this spiral staircase up to her
3:28:28her flat or whatever her apartment. And
3:28:31I was behind him because they were like,
3:28:32"Well, all of you kids are going to go
3:28:33use the bathroom if we're going to stop,
3:28:35right?" And so it's his dad, it's the
3:28:37it's the old lady, his dad, him, me, and
3:28:40then his younger brother, and then the
3:28:41mom. Actually, the mom in the car, but
3:28:43anyways, that was the that was the
3:28:43lineup. I'm looking up and as we're
3:28:46walking up, I just remember this
3:28:49horrendous smell. And then I was like,
3:28:51"Oh my god, he's ripping ass." And then
3:28:53I see just a [ __ ] deluge of [ __ ] just
3:28:59come out [laughter]
3:29:00and drip down his leg and it's on the
3:29:02steps and he's walking through and we're
3:29:04all trying and it was horrendous. And
3:29:06he's 11 and anyways he goes he has to
3:29:10wear his dad's boxers because he shits
3:29:12his pants, right? So his dad doesn't
3:29:13have boxers, he has his dad's boxers on
3:29:15and he was so humiliated and he was like
3:29:18don't [ __ ] joke about it blah blah
3:29:19blah blah. [laughter] and and obviously
3:29:22we're 11, right? And so and so his
3:29:25mother when she saw it cracks up at this
3:29:29happening even though he's like super
3:29:31serious about it and she says you are
3:29:34going to laugh about this in a few years
3:29:36like this will be a very funny story and
3:29:39I just remember that she was already
3:29:41there she like she was already there she
3:29:43was already this is hilarious and she
3:29:45was like it might take you some time but
3:29:46this is very funny and I that was like
3:29:49that was the time where I learned that
3:29:51was Like
3:29:53your tragedy plus time is comedy. Ken,
3:29:56if it becomes that eventually, then you
3:29:59might as well have it now. Of course, we
3:30:00have a TTRO. Haha. Like, how ridiculous
3:30:03is this?
3:30:04>> Unreal.
3:30:05>> What a better story it'll be. Cuz like I
3:30:07don't remember anything about that trip
3:30:08besides the fact that he [ __ ] his pants.
3:30:10That'll definitely breach the threshold
3:30:12for emotional activation. Yeah. Like
3:30:14novelty and intensity are the two things
3:30:16that create emotion. That that would
3:30:18create memories. That's definitely one
3:30:19of them. that talking of the young
3:30:20people thing. Young people don't want to
3:30:23work hard anymore. No, young people
3:30:26don't want to work hard anymore for you.
3:30:29You have to create a company worth
3:30:30working hard for.
3:30:33Yeah. I mean, I just fundamentally
3:30:35reject that humans have somehow changed.
3:30:36Um I do think that there are going to be
3:30:39preferences that change between um uh
3:30:43what do you call not classes uh
3:30:45generations. Thank you. Generations. Um,
3:30:48but they just work differently. But
3:30:50there, I mean, I see some 15-year-olds,
3:30:5220-year-olds that are just as motivated
3:30:53as 15 and 20-y olds. And I see some lazy
3:30:5515 and 20-year-olds that were just as
3:30:56lazy as 15 and 20-year-olds that I knew.
3:30:58I think it's just convenient more than
3:31:00anything. And typically, it's easier for
3:31:02older people to say that we had it
3:31:03harder and you did. So what? And also,
3:31:07most generations say, "I want to make it
3:31:08better for the next generation." And
3:31:09then when it is better for the next
3:31:10generation, we resent them for it being
3:31:12better and easier. But wasn't that the
3:31:14point? And so it's really just like
3:31:15resenting them for receiving the gift
3:31:17that we gave them.
3:31:24What does creating a company worth
3:31:26working hard for mean?
3:31:28>> I think it's a combination of the micro
3:31:30environment within the company and then
3:31:31the global reinforcer that the company
3:31:33stands for. And so I see when when Elon
3:31:36says, uh, we're going to, you know,
3:31:39Mars, or more realistically, we're
3:31:41saving humanity, which is, I think, what
3:31:43most of the people who are bought in,
3:31:45um, on his vision see, um, he's created
3:31:48the most noble cause of all kind that
3:31:50you should, a goal big enough that it's
3:31:51worth suffering for.
3:31:53>> And so people are willing to suffer as
3:31:55long as the price is worth it, we're
3:31:56willing to go through just about
3:31:57anything. And so making the company
3:31:59worth suffering for or worth working
3:32:01hard for is about number one making sure
3:32:03that where we're going is a place that
3:32:04people feel inspired to work towards,
3:32:07right? I think this is worth doing. On
3:32:10the micro, it's okay, how can I make the
3:32:12work environment something that people
3:32:14want to come back to? And that a lot has
3:32:16to do with just training leaders and
3:32:18managers in order to make environments
3:32:21that ward off people who suck and
3:32:23encourage people who don't suck.
3:32:25>> Yeah. If you have a company that
3:32:27continues to get great talent that you
3:32:29should, you can hire people who just
3:32:31weren't right or were not going to work
3:32:33hard or weren't going to be bought in,
3:32:34but after a while, especially if you've
3:32:36got enough staff that work for you, if
3:32:37they continue to be demotivated and to
3:32:39not want to work hard, it's a you
3:32:42problem. What What What's more likely
3:32:44that all of your exes are [ __ ] who
3:32:46are argumentative or that you're the
3:32:47argumentative [ __ ] Because you are
3:32:49the common denominator between all of
3:32:51these different exes
3:32:51>> or them. Me and them, there's two. them
3:32:54is the other, right?
3:32:55>> Yes. [laughter] Yes. Yes. Yes.
3:32:57>> No, but so no to your point in
3:32:59seriousness, um if we if we see that as
3:33:01culture, right, which is this big
3:33:02amorphous term, but obviously it's in
3:33:03the business world, so I've define it,
3:33:05which is um the rules that govern
3:33:06reinforcement in organization, right? So
3:33:08what are the if then statements that
3:33:09when someone does this, this happens?
3:33:11And so the culture of any group, not
3:33:13necessarily even a company, but of any
3:33:14team, any any group of people, it's
3:33:16going to be what are all the things that
3:33:17are rewarded? What are all the things
3:33:19that are punished? And then kind of
3:33:20third category is what are the things
3:33:21that um are themselves reinforcing that
3:33:24we permit but we shouldn't,
3:33:25>> right? And so being really clear and
3:33:28this is why I'm big on defining things
3:33:30in observational terms is so instead of
3:33:32saying, "Hey, uh Susie was lazy." We say
3:33:34like Susie doesn't respond to Slack
3:33:35quickly and she showed up late to two
3:33:37meetings. Okay, so that's what she did.
3:33:40Is she lazy? That's a label that doesn't
3:33:42really help anybody. But if I can tell
3:33:43Susie, hey, people are beginning to
3:33:45describe you as lazy
3:33:46>> and it's because of these things. I'm
3:33:48assuming you don't want to be described
3:33:50as lazy, right? Okay. If you just ch do
3:33:53this instead next time. And it just it
3:33:56just it cuts out so much of the noise of
3:33:58like this generate. It's like many of
3:33:59the times they don't even know
3:34:02that's what good looked like.
3:34:04No one ever defined success. No one ever
3:34:06defined what the what the standard was.
3:34:08And so I see that probably the most
3:34:10important job of the leader is to hold
3:34:12the standard. Is to define what good
3:34:13looks like in observable terms so that
3:34:15everyone knows this is success. Mhm.
3:34:17>> Therefore, failure is also obvious,
3:34:19>> right? And then obviously all the
3:34:21downstream implications of that of how
3:34:22do you model behavior so that other
3:34:23people do it, etc.
3:34:24>> It's very hard to have a vision when you
3:34:26have bills to pay.
3:34:27>> I saw this old white guy giving
3:34:29financial advice on TikTok, getting
3:34:30roasted in the comments, boomer, fake
3:34:33guru, etc. The guy was Ray Dalio. That's
3:34:37when I realized there was no amount of
3:34:39success that can legitimize you to the
3:34:41ignorant. If you actually met everyone,
3:34:43you'd realize some people aren't worth
3:34:44being loved by. It's a good thing to be
3:34:46hated by a bad person.
3:34:57violent agreement, [laughter]
3:34:58>> but that that moment with Ray Dalia was
3:35:01like it was actually like there are
3:35:03these moments that you have that change
3:35:06the way you behave and that was one for
3:35:08me that I don't want to say it was the
3:35:10last nail in the coffin because I don't
3:35:11think anyone is impervious from outside
3:35:13influences but it was a significant nail
3:35:16in the coffin of the public opinion uh
3:35:18for me in terms of content um
3:35:21>> because when I like I because I think to
3:35:24some degree maybe I'll just speak for
3:35:27There's always a chase for more
3:35:28legitimacy. Like, am I legit yet?
3:35:31>> Am I like, do I need to be billionaire?
3:35:33Yeah. Do I need to be a billionaire to
3:35:34be legit? Do I need to be a deca
3:35:36billionaire to be legit? Like, when am I
3:35:38legit? Right? Um, which which really
3:35:41means when will everyone love me and no
3:35:43one hate me?
3:35:46But
3:35:48when I and I when I was writing that, I
3:35:49was thinking to myself like,
3:35:52oh, everyone loved me. Well, I've met a
3:35:56lot of people that I think that if they
3:35:58loved me, I don't think I would like me.
3:36:00>> I wouldn't see that as a compliment.
3:36:02>> Yeah. And so then it was like, "Oh,
3:36:04well, this is just this is a fixed cost.
3:36:08I just would prefer to be liked by the
3:36:09correct people and I should prefer to be
3:36:12disliked by the incorrect people." In
3:36:15which case, great. Some people didn't
3:36:17like me. That makes sense. I'm not for
3:36:19everyone.
3:36:19>> Adam Masion's got the two laws that
3:36:21govern the internet. The internet is a
3:36:23very big place and people have differing
3:36:24opinions.
3:36:26Just when you combine those two things
3:36:28together, it means that some huge
3:36:31portion of people are going to hate you.
3:36:33>> Yeah.
3:36:33>> And as you get exposed to more, given
3:36:36that the internet is a very big place. I
3:36:38had uh Joe Santagardo on the show. Um
3:36:41one of the biggest podcasts in the world
3:36:42recently sold out MSG [ __ ] huge. Sat
3:36:45there and the first thing that I said to
3:36:46him, I was like, "Dude, you they do the
3:36:48same plays as we do on Spotify. the same
3:36:51play. They got their award, their uh
3:36:53button award. That's literally the same
3:36:55announcement. I got mine. Nonzero number
3:36:58of [ __ ] plays, right? Worked very
3:37:00hard at it. Like, Joe, what do you think
3:37:02is the uh big podcast just sold at MSG.
3:37:06I do tours too. I podcast like how ven
3:37:10diagrammy how much? And he's like, I
3:37:12think it's like the headlights of a
3:37:13[ __ ] Jeep. It's like two big circles.
3:37:15He's 80% women at his live events. It's
3:37:1890 95% women for him and his co-host.
3:37:21Hilarious comedian.
3:37:23>> I've never heard of it. So yeah,
3:37:24>> being on YouTube, The Basement Yard,
3:37:25Joe, like [ __ ] awesome talent. Like
3:37:27generational talent at what he does.
3:37:31>> All of the comments. All of the
3:37:32comments. I like this guy. Who the [ __ ]
3:37:34is he? [laughter] The internet is a
3:37:36really big place. It's a really, really,
3:37:39really big place. And sometimes you can
3:37:42have that which is, wow, two van
3:37:43diagrams come together and they actually
3:37:45mix quite nicely. Other times it's like
3:37:48oil and water. And given the fact that
3:37:49the internet's a big place and lots of
3:37:51people have different tastes, the
3:37:52problem I think is
3:37:55taking feedback from people who you
3:37:59think are your people but aren't. M
3:38:02because the difference between huh this
3:38:04person is unencumbered and has a type of
3:38:09uh unbiased perspective of me that is
3:38:11novel and useful to take as opposed to
3:38:14people who have seen a lot of me and can
3:38:16frame maybe I was a bit mean but they
3:38:18know I've got enough ballast in the
3:38:20system that they give me a pass as
3:38:22opposed to this person that saw me for
3:38:23the first time was like I think you were
3:38:24a bit rude to that person you go [ __ ]
3:38:26actually do you know what maybe I was
3:38:27but the other side being this person
3:38:30just isn't my people
3:38:33determining those two from the internet
3:38:36with the disembodied egg profile thing
3:38:39or everybody everybody now especially
3:38:42with how the platforms work. Everybody
3:38:43can go viral because it's no longer
3:38:46about followers which I feel like
3:38:49unbelievably annoyed by that I was small
3:38:52when followers mattered and now I'm big
3:38:54when just content matters. Like I I
3:38:56invested into the market when it was
3:38:58really really difficult and now that I'm
3:38:59at the top of the market, it means that
3:39:01it's easy for everybody at the start.
3:39:03Whatever. But the same thing.
3:39:05>> How do you how do you really feel?
3:39:06>> Yeah, [laughter] it's true. It's true.
3:39:08It is. It is. Uh the followers seem to
3:39:10matter an awful lot and meant that you
3:39:12just piss out huge plays because of your
3:39:13subscriber base. And now everybody, but
3:39:16the fact that anybody can go viral, how
3:39:18fantastic. It's egalitarian. It means
3:39:19that new creators can come through and
3:39:20I've seen lots of them and I coach lots
3:39:22of them and help them to try and get up.
3:39:24But at the same time, that means that
3:39:25people who aren't creators can go viral.
3:39:28Someone can just yap because they wanted
3:39:30to. I was on this American Airlines
3:39:32flight and I can't believe that this
3:39:33thing happened, but you wake up the next
3:39:35day and you're a headline. You go, "Ah,
3:39:38I don't know if all of these people who
3:39:40don't know who I am are my people or
3:39:42not." And the feedback is very difficult
3:39:43to discern.
3:39:44>> Or if they see the 15 seconds, I think
3:39:46there was that lady who had that she,
3:39:47you know, went off on the airline pilot.
3:39:49I I don't know anything about it. I
3:39:50literally only know that. I thought you
3:39:52were going to say the one about um that
3:39:53this is like 10 years old now. The chick
3:39:55that said uh I'm heading to Africa. Hope
3:39:58I don't get AIDS. Lol. Just joking. I'm
3:40:00white. Um and she got she tweeted it
3:40:03before she got on the plane. Got off the
3:40:04plane and her whole life was in flames.
3:40:07Family Guy did a bit about this. Brian
3:40:09did it before he got on a plane. So
3:40:10good.
3:40:12and they saw and the world saw however
3:40:16many less than you know 280 whatever the
3:40:19characters is and took that and then
3:40:20just said this I know everything about
3:40:23who you are yeah this is everything that
3:40:24you are
3:40:25>> um and I think that in a nutshell is
3:40:27like why we can't take too much weight
3:40:28for okay that they have consumed 280
3:40:31characters of every character that
3:40:33you've ever said or thought in the
3:40:34history of you it's like one thing that
3:40:37um I think brought to to argue the
3:40:40complete opposite side of this. Um, I
3:40:43think there's a very powerful question
3:40:44which is what if they're right.
3:40:46>> Mhm.
3:40:47>> And
3:40:49and so what? So, for example, I get a
3:40:52ton of like juice head gear, steroids,
3:40:55whatever.
3:40:56>> Said Jew said, [laughter]
3:40:59>> I don't get that one. Um, but
3:41:02>> but I get a lot of like steroid related
3:41:03stuff, especially if I don't have uh,
3:41:05you know, my my flannel on. Um, and I
3:41:08used to be like really offended by it.
3:41:10And then uh Ila was like, "You've taken
3:41:13steroids." And I was like, "That is a
3:41:15fair point. [laughter]
3:41:17>> What if that ride?"
3:41:18>> Yeah. And it's just like And I was like,
3:41:19"Oh, this makes sense." And then like
3:41:22Ila people, you know, get after her her
3:41:24voice being low and uh it's like she's
3:41:27like, "I took steroids."
3:41:29>> So yeah, that's how that happens.
3:41:32Anyways, uh
3:41:33>> moving on.
3:41:34>> Yeah. [laughter]
3:41:36Do you know Joe Hudson? Have you come
3:41:37across him yet? No, he's been on my
3:41:38podcast. He's uh Sam Alman's coach, head
3:41:41of human culture, performance, something
3:41:43at OpenAI, like one of only maybe two or
3:41:46three people that deserve the title of
3:41:47master coach. Dr. K being one of them.
3:41:49Probably Tony, I guess, too. And uh his
3:41:53handle on Twitter is FU Joe Hudson. And
3:41:57I was like, where's the FU from? It's
3:41:59like because people say [ __ ] you Joe
3:42:00Hudson. because that one of my friends a
3:42:03long time ago said, "You know what, Joe,
3:42:05you're an asshole." And I thought about
3:42:07it for a while and I realized I am an
3:42:09[ __ ] [laughter]
3:42:11So sometimes the things that people say
3:42:13to you just are true. They're just
3:42:15right. And in the fighting against it is
3:42:19where all of the pain is.
3:42:20>> That's all the pain. Exactly. And then
3:42:21as soon as that like that happened, I
3:42:24either that comment stopped happening as
3:42:26much or I stopped seeing it. I don't
3:42:28know which one actually happened but
3:42:30either way it stopped affecting me and
3:42:32so like I mean I guess it is simply a
3:42:34frame of acceptance of like what if
3:42:36they're right well maybe they are right
3:42:38and so what
3:42:39>> what does that mean? Oh, well the answer
3:42:42what works whether they're right or
3:42:44wrong.
3:42:45>> Which is why I mean that's one of your
3:42:46old ones, right?
3:42:48>> I'm thinking about one of my favorite
3:42:51lines of yours that I keep coming back
3:42:53to this year.
3:42:55The stress of being perfect will kill
3:42:57you more quickly than your
3:42:58imperfections.
3:42:59>> Stress of trying to be perfect will kill
3:43:00you more quickly than your
3:43:01imperfections. I think there's a
3:43:04burbling but pretty rapidly growing
3:43:06anti-optimization
3:43:08cult at the moment. And I think that
3:43:10people are feeling overwhelmed with
3:43:13advice. I think they're uncertain about
3:43:14the future. There's loads of chaos going
3:43:16on. Is AI gonna take my job? Is the Iran
3:43:18war going to bleed over here? What's
3:43:19going to happen? Is Trump going to run
3:43:20for a third term? Is there going to be a
3:43:22civil war? There's too much. There's too
3:43:24much information. I'm overwhelmed with
3:43:25screens. I haven't got good sleep. I'm
3:43:26taking too supplement. And they just
3:43:28want someone to simplify life. You can
3:43:32simplify life by trying to wrangle it
3:43:33down into an aggressive routine. But
3:43:35what that looks like from the outside a
3:43:36lot of the time is sort of fragility.
3:43:38And this is your America was built on
3:43:40the backs of men who ate bacon for
3:43:41breakfast and smoked cigarettes. Like if
3:43:43you miss your morning routine today,
3:43:45you'll be fine. Um the line between this
3:43:49is important for me to improve my mental
3:43:50health in order to create the structure
3:43:52that I need to make progress and this is
3:43:55a glorified rain dance that I'm doing
3:43:57because I'm superstitious about how
3:43:59things work. I even saw this with Joo.
3:44:01the first ever episode I did with Joo,
3:44:03he was in a bit of a
3:44:07tur mood as a tur man that was like tur
3:44:11squad and um and someone brought it up
3:44:14to him afterward uh a couple of months
3:44:17later on Twitter and he said I hadn't I
3:44:19hadn't trained that morning. I was in a
3:44:20bit of a grump
3:44:22hadn't been to the gym and I reflected
3:44:24about that a lot and I brought it up to
3:44:25him. I spent a few days with him over
3:44:27Christmas and uh I was like remember
3:44:29when that Yeah. So interesting because
3:44:32training is obviously the
3:44:35structure that you have built a lot of
3:44:37things on and it makes you feel good and
3:44:39it facilitates your performance
3:44:41but if the removal of the training
3:44:45doesn't allow you to do the thing there
3:44:47is a kind of fragility that's baked into
3:44:49the system there like you want to be
3:44:51able to perform regardless of whether
3:44:52you've got to train or not and the
3:44:54training builds on top. Does that make
3:44:55sense?
3:44:55>> A thousand%. If the if the
3:44:59[clears throat] routine that you do is
3:45:00additive, great. Then you have baseline
3:45:03performance without it. If the routine
3:45:07creates dependence to do baseline
3:45:09performance, then it becomes a crutch
3:45:12and then you become fragile. And so,
3:45:14yeah, I'm I would say on this on the
3:45:15spectrum of routine versus [ __ ]
3:45:17maxing, I'm on the [ __ ] maxing side
3:45:20[laughter] of like just work. um grab,
3:45:22you know, grab your grab your stim grab
3:45:24your stimmies and uh and get to it. And
3:45:27I think it's because my I think one of
3:45:28my big fears um in life was is is
3:45:31becoming soft. Is allowing
3:45:34>> like nothing feels like success
3:45:36is letting the laurels soften me to the
3:45:39game, which is like the reason that I
3:45:41still do like Q&A with, you know,
3:45:43smaller business owners that are, you
3:45:45know, doing, you know, a few million
3:45:46dollar a year or whatever is that's
3:45:48going to come off weird.
3:45:49um
3:45:52is I have to stay connected to the
3:45:54earth. I have to stay like grounded here
3:45:56otherwise I will lose the edge that is
3:45:58where all the details are one.
3:46:01>> And so um I'm a I'm a
3:46:05as a flag for self. If you cannot
3:46:08function without your routine, your
3:46:10routine owns you. You do not own it.
3:46:13Full stop. If it's just additive, great.
3:46:17And that means that if you don't have
3:46:18it, you should still be able to win.
3:46:19Because one of my big beliefs is
3:46:23>> whenever someone has an excuse for
3:46:24losing that's like, "Well, it wasn't a
3:46:25perfect day for me." It's like there's
3:46:28this um scene in I think it's Invictus.
3:46:30It's uh Matt Damon movie. He's like a
3:46:32rug ball rugby player, whatever with
3:46:34Morgan Freeman,
3:46:35>> South South Africa. Mhm.
3:46:36>> And there's this scene where Morgan
3:46:38Freeman is Nelson Mandela and he's
3:46:40talking to Matt Damon
3:46:42and uh I think Matt Damon says something
3:46:44to the degree of you know uh we're we're
3:46:46not playing it 100%. And I think Morgan
3:46:48Freeman says no one ever is and it's it
3:46:52was it was like I don't even think it's
3:46:53a quoted part of the movie but I
3:46:55remember seeing that and being like [ __ ]
3:46:58like no one's ever at 100%. It's like
3:47:00saying I can I can win the I can win
3:47:02with if I have perfect weather, perfect
3:47:04conditions, perfect whatever. And so I
3:47:06think that's why having trying to get
3:47:07all the failures out so you can try to
3:47:08create or recreate the randomness that
3:47:10imperfect conditions can and still win.
3:47:14And I think that's why I'm such an
3:47:15advocate of of uh of just win like like
3:47:20it does like it just because the thing
3:47:22is is after the game is played no one
3:47:24remembers whether the ref gave you a bad
3:47:26call or the weather was bad or whether
3:47:29your starting lineup had two entries on
3:47:30it. No one remembers.
3:47:33And so if they're not going to remember
3:47:34it in 20 years, then it should be a
3:47:35reason that we're going to try and lose
3:47:36today.
3:47:37>> There's a Floyd Mayweather quote where
3:47:40he says, uh, you felt like you were on
3:47:43your A game today. And he says, I ain't
3:47:45got to use my A game, my B game, my C
3:47:47game. I can use my Z game. I don't even
3:47:49have to hit him hard. The result's going
3:47:51to be the same. The prospect of being
3:47:53able to beat somebody with your C game
3:47:55is really [ __ ] cool.
3:47:56>> I love it. It's violent.
3:48:00>> Most people think the hard part is
3:48:01getting started. The hard part is
3:48:03continuing to do the work when the
3:48:04excitement wears off and the grind feels
3:48:06hopeless.
3:48:12The visual that I always think about
3:48:13this is the marathons. Marathon runners
3:48:16is that people get excited at the very
3:48:18beginning of the marathon where there's
3:48:19all these balloons and their friends and
3:48:21they're like che them on. There's music
3:48:23and then at the end of the marathon is
3:48:26where everyone cheers you on at the end.
3:48:27But the marathon is one in the 26.1
3:48:30miles between those two tenth of a mile.
3:48:33And it is the boring, unending,
3:48:35relentless, mundane middle.
3:48:37>> And I think the game is mastering the
3:48:39middle. It's just the it's just
3:48:40unending, unyielding. And
3:48:44everyone can get motivated for a moment.
3:48:47It's just like people feel motivated,
3:48:49but like motivation is is incredibly
3:48:51ephemeral, right? It vanishes. And
3:48:53that's why having creating the
3:48:55conditions that make failure less likely
3:48:57is so important because if we can make
3:49:00successful actions the most likely
3:49:02actions, success becomes the most likely
3:49:04outcome.
3:49:05>> And I think that is like that is the
3:49:08piece that people miss because they
3:49:10actually stack their deck against
3:49:12themselves by never arranging the
3:49:14conditions to make successful actions
3:49:15the most likely action.
3:49:18So, it's like I have to have like I have
3:49:22to use perfect willpower to go out with
3:49:23my friends and not drink. I have to uh
3:49:25and because of that, I'm going to stay
3:49:26out late, but I can I'm going to have
3:49:28I'm going to get home and immediately
3:49:29fall asleep and and if I if I fall
3:49:32asleep perfectly, I will get up by the
3:49:34time that I have this interview or by
3:49:35the time I need to give this
3:49:36presentation. Um, and they need
3:49:37everything to go perfect in order to
3:49:39have one win. when it is much more let's
3:49:43use anti-fragile to set up the condition
3:49:45so that everything can go wrong and you
3:49:47can still win. So when we did the launch
3:49:49for the money models launch one of the
3:49:51frames that we had is we wanted it to be
3:49:53inevitable. And so in order for it to be
3:49:54inevitable we wanted to have three or
3:49:56four different ways that we could break
3:49:57the record
3:49:59>> was that like if we only do this we
3:50:00break the record. If we only do this we
3:50:02break the record. If only this happens
3:50:04we break the record. If only do this
3:50:05break we break the record. And we
3:50:07figured that if each of these had 80 or
3:50:0990% likelihood of of of happening that
3:50:12the likelihood that we'd break the
3:50:13record would be very high. And at the
3:50:15end of the day, we still didn't know.
3:50:16But I think stacking probabilities
3:50:20and in in thinking about I'm going to
3:50:22I'm going to bridge this for a second,
3:50:23but I think the number of ways that
3:50:26people attack the problems in front of
3:50:27them is not nearly enough in terms of
3:50:30volume and not with nearly enough the
3:50:31intensity. Like they're not going at it
3:50:34with full measure. Like if you knew that
3:50:36your your family was going to die or the
3:50:38thing that you care about most was going
3:50:39to disappear. How differently would you
3:50:40attack this problem and how many
3:50:43different ways would you attack the
3:50:44problem? If you said, "Ah, man. I I
3:50:45don't have a job right now." It's like,
3:50:46"Okay, well, what have you actually
3:50:48done?" Right? And it's like, "Well, I
3:50:49applied to three places." It's like,
3:50:50"Okay, cool. Well, how long did that
3:50:52take you? It took me 45 minutes." Okay,
3:50:54how many hours are there in a week? How
3:50:56many hours are there in a month? What
3:50:57are you doing that's not that that is
3:50:59increasingly likely that you get it?
3:51:00Basically, nothing. And so there's
3:51:02nothing that stops you from applying to
3:51:03a 100red or a thousand jobs in a month.
3:51:05And the likelihood if you apply to a
3:51:06thousand jobs and you have the requisite
3:51:08uh requirements that you don't get one
3:51:09is very low. And so it's just like why
3:51:11are you not doing that? And I don't know
3:51:13the answer to that because I've just
3:51:14been a relatively violent person by
3:51:16nature.
3:51:17>> Um
3:51:18>> but I think once you have a very clear
3:51:20path to getting what you want, it's like
3:51:22okay, how do I remove everything that
3:51:23prevents me from getting it?
3:51:24>> Mhm.
3:51:25>> Mhm.
3:51:28>> Not in a self agrandizing way. I am
3:51:29flawed too, but I'm just saying it
3:51:31helps.
3:51:33>> It's It is true that more dreams are
3:51:35destroyed by distraction than
3:51:36incompetence.
3:51:38>> And that's in the micro, but in the
3:51:39macro as well,
3:51:40>> a billion%. If you had So, if you had a
3:51:44a white room that you were locked into,
3:51:46and there was nothing in the white room
3:51:49except for one black dot. What is the
3:51:52most interesting thing in that room? The
3:51:54one black dot. And so people struggle to
3:51:57get motivated to do the work because
3:52:01there are other more interesting things
3:52:03to do than the work. And so you're not
3:52:05going to willpower your way through
3:52:07making work more interesting. But you
3:52:08can absolutely put yourself in a
3:52:10situation where work becomes the most
3:52:12interesting thing.
3:52:14And that is how you do a shitload of
3:52:16work.
3:52:17>> We talked a lot about risk. I said, you
3:52:19know, over the last sort of 12 months,
3:52:22looking at what you've talked about,
3:52:23uncertainty,
3:52:25managing risk, but respect is something
3:52:28else you've been thinking about a good
3:52:29bit. What have you another R word, the
3:52:31other R word? What have you been
3:52:32thinking about to do with respect?
3:52:34>> Well,
3:52:36one that you
3:52:37>> I'm so excited you I'm so excited you
3:52:38asked. Um, so I've been trying to think
3:52:41about
3:52:43the operation of respect because I
3:52:45thought, okay, what what is something
3:52:47that I' I've wanted my whole life,
3:52:49right? I think many men want respect.
3:52:51Some people say status, but I'll I'll
3:52:53define respect um as this.
3:52:59So respect is letting someone else's
3:53:02word change what you do even when they
3:53:04cannot make you. So if I respect
3:53:07someone,
3:53:08what they what they say changes what I
3:53:11do even though they cannot force me to
3:53:13do it.
3:53:14And so there's two sides of respect.
3:53:17There's the earning of respect and
3:53:18there's the giving of respect. And so I
3:53:20was trying to encapsulate this into an
3:53:23acronym that I could remember because I
3:53:24know I'm going to talk about this a lot,
3:53:25especially with our leaders, the
3:53:26company, because leaders want respect.
3:53:28That makes sense. But how do you how how
3:53:31how do you gain respect and then also
3:53:33not pass the line of being a tyrant,
3:53:35right? And so the acronym that I have is
3:53:38powers which is the behaviors that earn
3:53:41respect is number one is that you pay
3:53:43the cost which is that you sacrifice for
3:53:45the group where they can see it. So if I
3:53:49I remember the first time um so when I
3:53:51was when I was a pledge back in my
3:53:52fraternity days it's a group where
3:53:54everyone's even right no one's no one's
3:53:56special and there was a particular
3:53:59senior who was known for being a bad
3:54:00hazer and he called the goats and so the
3:54:03goats had to go to the house and you had
3:54:05to go in pairs right and so he called
3:54:07one guy and the guy was like
3:54:08>> it's goats it's just a derogative term
3:54:10derogatory term for a pledge
3:54:13>> okay [laughter]
3:54:15>> yeah worms goats whatever um well goats
3:54:17cuz they're gophers and they go do [ __ ]
3:54:18for you. Anyways, they um and so he just
3:54:21looked at the group of, you know, 18
3:54:22other guys and he's like, "Who wants to
3:54:25come with me?" Cuz we knew he was going
3:54:27to get hazed. So, somebody just has to
3:54:29basically sacrifice themselves. And so,
3:54:31I remember was like, "I'll go with you,
3:54:32dude." And it's a tiny act where that
3:54:35sacrifice gains respect from the whole
3:54:38group because that micro benefits
3:54:40everybody else for not having to go
3:54:41through it. And so, when you are in a
3:54:43new organization, this is the operation
3:54:46for respect. you sacrifice yourself in a
3:54:48way that benefits the whole um in a way
3:54:51that is visible. You don't have to do it
3:54:52visibly because then it looks cringe but
3:54:53like they will see it eventually.
3:54:55>> Signing up early.
3:54:57>> Yeah. Number two is outcomes which is
3:55:00that things get better when you are
3:55:01involved for everyone. And so
3:55:03functionally it's competence which I
3:55:05would define as outcomes improve with
3:55:07your involvement that are traceable to
3:55:08you repeatedly. So it's the opposite of
3:55:10luck or free riding right? Three is
3:55:14word. Your word, right? The W, which is
3:55:16what you say will happen happens. And
3:55:18what you say you'll do, you do.
3:55:21E is in force. And this is the sticky
3:55:23one I'll get to more in a second, but
3:55:25it's you don't let people cross you
3:55:27consistently.
3:55:29The R is restraint, which is that you
3:55:32hold back when you could punish more and
3:55:34you give more credit than you need to.
3:55:37And then S is steady is that you
3:55:39function in highstake situations the
3:55:42same as normal situations.
3:55:45And so what ends up happening is that
3:55:49enforcement is basically your compliance
3:55:52floor which is that if I enforce rules
3:55:54of like this is how I want to be treated
3:55:57then people will at baseline just do
3:56:01that. But that is where you have a
3:56:02tyrant on it on their own because you
3:56:04need the other ones to have respect. You
3:56:06have to be competent. Like if you have
3:56:08just uh enforcement of rules but you
3:56:10have no competence, things is not better
3:56:11for anyone, you've never beared any
3:56:13cost,
3:56:14>> everyone [ __ ] hates that guy. And the
3:56:15moment their ability to make that
3:56:17person's life worse goes away, so does
3:56:19the behavior. And so the key that
3:56:21separates basically fear driven or
3:56:23compliance versus respect is that they
3:56:25have to be able to do it even when you
3:56:27have no ability to make them.
3:56:29>> Now on the flip side, if you have all of
3:56:31the competence things, but you have no
3:56:33enforcement, then you're the admired
3:56:35doormat. you do things for everyone, but
3:56:36like no one respects you. [gasps]
3:56:39>> So then the next thing that comes up is
3:56:41like, okay, so enforcement, and this is
3:56:43probably the hairiest of the of the ones
3:56:45that is still required. And so there's
3:56:47three things that have to happen in
3:56:49order for you to be obligated to enforce
3:56:52a standard, which is that number one,
3:56:54someone has to know the standard you
3:56:56have. You're like, "Please do not talk
3:56:57to me that way. Please do not address me
3:56:58in that manner." whatever the whatever
3:57:00whatever do not do not turn in the
3:57:02dinner that's cold whatever
3:57:05they have to have a known standard.
3:57:07Number two is that they have to have the
3:57:08ability to adhere to that standard and
3:57:10then three choose not to.
3:57:12>> Mhm.
3:57:13>> Now a lot of times people can feel
3:57:14disrespected but if you've never
3:57:16articulated that this is a preference of
3:57:18yours that you do things a certain way
3:57:20and then you basically punish someone
3:57:22for treating you in a specific way
3:57:23without ever having told them then that
3:57:25is when you'll be seen as tyrannical.
3:57:26unspoken standards are premeditated
3:57:28disrespects.
3:57:29>> Yeah. And so, so imagine the situation
3:57:32where you have a chef who's, you know,
3:57:35he takes a a [ __ ] hole, turns it around,
3:57:38is, you know, best-in-class chef, and
3:57:40he's got um a new and he's known for
3:57:42both being incredibly hard, but everyone
3:57:45who works for him loves him. So, it's
3:57:47like, how do we how do we manage these
3:57:48this apparent contradiction? So, new new
3:57:51sue chef comes in, messes something up.
3:57:54The plate get comes back in, and then
3:57:56the head chef takes it, dumps it, and
3:57:58looks at the kid.
3:58:01He says, "You just cost us that table.
3:58:03We're going to comp the bill, but don't
3:58:05worry, you're still with us. Show up
3:58:07again at 6 a.m. tomorrow and do better."
3:58:10So, you have the moment. We have to
3:58:11enforce it, but it's about the behavior,
3:58:13not the person. And that's the big
3:58:14that's the big unlock.
3:58:15>> What would doing it about the person
3:58:17look like? So it's basically you lazy
3:58:21piece of [ __ ] It's basically labeling
3:58:22them rather than the behavior and
3:58:24criticizing who they are rather than
3:58:25what they did. And so the three things
3:58:28is number one, it has to be a known
3:58:30rule. Number two, they have to have the
3:58:33ability to follow it. And number three,
3:58:34choose not to. That is when a
3:58:36transgression occurs. Now then it comes
3:58:39into okay what are the consequences that
3:58:41happen? Does that mean that you just let
3:58:42people transgress after you say hey
3:58:44don't do that and hey don't worry I
3:58:45still love you. Well, the consequence
3:58:48for crossing you needs to be consistent,
3:58:50which means that every time someone
3:58:52crosses you, there needs to be a
3:58:53consequence. If there isn't, then you
3:58:55teach people to gamble with you because
3:58:57it's a re it's a variable reinforcer.
3:58:59You need to have consistent reinforcers
3:59:00which extinguishes the behavior. And so,
3:59:02it has to be consistent. It has to be
3:59:04immediate and it has to be escalating.
3:59:06Which means if the first time I tell you
3:59:08I say, "Don't worry, you're with us. Be
3:59:10here tomorrow. Do better." Fine. If you
3:59:13do it again, then it's like you're off
3:59:15for the night. If you do it again, you
3:59:18don't come back. And so there has to be
3:59:20an escalating consequence because what
3:59:22happens is at some moment it stops being
3:59:24about punishing the behavior and it
3:59:26should be about punishing the pattern of
3:59:28behavior which then means it is the
3:59:30person which might be at that point I
3:59:31don't want to I don't want to train this
3:59:32person anymore. And so at that point you
3:59:35have to respect the standard for
3:59:38everyone. and out of owing it to
3:59:39everyone, we have to let this person go
3:59:42even if they're a perceived high
3:59:43performer.
3:59:45And so, um, the flip side of it, so
3:59:48that's the how you earn respect is you
3:59:50do powers. You sacrifice for the group.
3:59:52You have outcomes that you demonstrate
3:59:53competence for. Your word is your bond.
3:59:55You do what you say you're going to do.
3:59:56You enforce the standards publicly,
3:59:59swiftly, consistently, and escalatingly.
4:00:02You show restraint when you could yell
4:00:05like go [ __ ] nuts on this kid for
4:00:07[ __ ] something up. you choose not to
4:00:09even though you could. And then S is
4:00:11that you're steady even when the the
4:00:12biggest Michelin star uh judge is there,
4:00:15you still act the exact same way as
4:00:16though they were just a normal dinner
4:00:18table. On the flip side, it's like,
4:00:20okay, how do I give respect? Because
4:00:23this is equal opposite. If you're like,
4:00:24well, this person needs to show me
4:00:26respect. And I think this is important
4:00:27because if you're like, I felt
4:00:28disrespected. Well, one, did we did we
4:00:31say what our preference was? And this
4:00:32has been super useful for me because I
4:00:34sometimes will feel disrespected by
4:00:35somebody who who doesn't know. And so it
4:00:37helped me just to say, "Hey, you might
4:00:39not have known this. Don't do this
4:00:40again. We're still cool. You didn't
4:00:42know.
4:00:43>> If you do it again, now we have a
4:00:44problem." Right? So I uh I just came up
4:00:48with an acronym hearted, which is all
4:00:49all I could make from my memory. But
4:00:51basically, honor, which is that you
4:00:53respect their preferences, you respect
4:00:54their lines, and you don't test the
4:00:55limits. E is esteem. So you praise them
4:00:58when they are not present.
4:01:01>> Attend, which is that you listen to them
4:01:03without cutting in or interrupting.
4:01:06You are reliable in that your word is as
4:01:08good to them as as there's as theirs is
4:01:10to you. If you say, "I've got the soup,"
4:01:12you'll get the soup. You show them
4:01:14respect by saying what you said you were
4:01:15going to do to honor them. The next is
4:01:18truth. And this is where it gets a
4:01:19little bit more interesting. You tell
4:01:21them straight, including what they will
4:01:23not like. And so that means that if you
4:01:24really respect someone, you don't cuddle
4:01:26them,
4:01:27>> just like a parent would respect a
4:01:28child. I'm not going to dumb this down
4:01:30for you.
4:01:32And then E, this is another hard one, is
4:01:34expectations. is that you hold them to
4:01:35the same standard
4:01:38and so you don't lower the bar for
4:01:39someone because otherwise that's just
4:01:40watering it down and diluting it.
4:01:42Don't talk down to me.
4:01:43>> Bring the standard down to their level
4:01:44of comfort.
4:01:45>> Exactly. And so it's equal opposite. And
4:01:47then finally, D is defer. Is that in
4:01:49their area of expertise, you defer to
4:01:50their decisions. And so this has been
4:01:52really helpful for me to define this
4:01:54because respect is one word, but it has
4:01:55many behaviors underneath of it. And so
4:01:57by defining it that way, it's been
4:01:59incredibly helpful because when I'm
4:02:01talking to leaders, it's like you need
4:02:02to earn respect and resp and you earn
4:02:04respect in this way. And that way I
4:02:06could say you have not visibly
4:02:07sacrificed anything for this group or
4:02:09the outcomes that you've generated in no
4:02:11way have demonstrated competence or you
4:02:13said you would do this thing and then
4:02:14you haven't done it or uh you are
4:02:17allowing people to treat you in a way
4:02:19that is not the way that a trader a
4:02:21leader would allow someone to treat them
4:02:23and you have not enforced anything.
4:02:25>> Um I would say that that happens on the
4:02:27E happens on both sides. I would say
4:02:28that I have some leaders in the company
4:02:30for example who are overly enforcing and
4:02:32people absolutely comply with what they
4:02:34tell them to do but it's because it's
4:02:36all out of fear
4:02:37>> of just get just don't cross them right
4:02:39but you don't know what they're what it
4:02:41is which just means that they look like
4:02:42a loose cannon.
4:02:44>> Um on the other side you've got the
4:02:45people who are really competent but
4:02:46they're just like ah you know it's okay
4:02:48you know like you know happy golucky but
4:02:49like they don't get the respect because
4:02:51they never earn force anything. I can
4:02:52think of two different leaders in my
4:02:53company right now that are on both sides
4:02:55of this. Both competent, but one that
4:02:57probably over enforces and another that
4:02:59basically underinforces. But until I had
4:03:01the words and these behaviors, I can't
4:03:04give them good feedback, which is why
4:03:07I'm so adamant about defining these
4:03:08terms in terms of behavior because then
4:03:09I can actually help someone gain
4:03:10respect. And so if you were like, man, I
4:03:13[ __ ] no one respects me. It's like,
4:03:14well, there's the list.
4:03:16>> What things did you miss or what things
4:03:18have you not done? And that's just like
4:03:20this is something that I've it's
4:03:21obviously a huge passion of mine because
4:03:23defining the vague or defining the
4:03:24amorphous in terms that people can be
4:03:26like wow I I did that operation and I
4:03:29now have gotten respect.
4:03:30>> Yeah.
4:03:31>> Yeah. Like that's very cool for me. I
4:03:32read a really great essay about uh how
4:03:38status is accumulated and there's
4:03:41broadly two ways especially ancestrally
4:03:44dominance and prestige. Mhm.
4:03:46>> And the interesting thing is that in
4:03:47times of war, tribes tend to prefer
4:03:50dominant leaders. Problem being that a
4:03:53time of war hopefully, if you don't
4:03:55lose, will last. It'll end. Then you're
4:03:59stuck with this tyrannical dominant guy
4:04:01who's surrounded himself with sick fans.
4:04:04And that's when you want someone who's
4:04:05prestigious. And to find someone who's
4:04:07prestigious, the issue being that
4:04:09sometimes they're not as decisive or as
4:04:10cutthroat as you need in a time of
4:04:13crisis. And um
4:04:17>> this was the issue with Churchill,
4:04:18right? I mean Churchill was like an
4:04:19amazing wartime leader and then didn't
4:04:21he didn't do as well after a bit of a
4:04:22tyrant. Yeah. I mean he he wasn't built
4:04:24as a peace time leader. Yeah. He just
4:04:26that wasn't what he needed.
4:04:28>> UK history.
4:04:28>> Yeah. Of course, dude. Here's one about
4:04:30Churchill. I'm reading The Splendid and
4:04:32the Vile, which is the best book about
4:04:34Church. You'll only go the whole book. I
4:04:36think it's 500 pages and it's
4:04:3918 months is what it covers. And it's
4:04:41all of the journals and diary entries
4:04:43from all of the different people. Best
4:04:45thing that I learned about Churchill so
4:04:47far is that he really hated whistling.
4:04:49He was like allergic to whistling. And
4:04:52there was one day there was a boy that
4:04:53was walking down the street whistling.
4:04:54And he ended up in this huge back and
4:04:56forth with this like 11-year-old kid,
4:04:58you know, some street urchin.
4:05:02And uh Churchill, one of the biggest
4:05:04wars before his uh uh like campaign
4:05:07began was between him and this
4:05:0811-year-old child. Brilliant. Absolutely
4:05:10brilliant. Uh, finishing this off, just
4:05:13talking about like probably the word of
4:05:14the day, risk.
4:05:17You can't get rich if you never risk
4:05:19losing money. You can't get loved if you
4:05:21never risk getting rejected. You can't
4:05:23get strong if you never risk getting
4:05:24injured. You have to risk looking broke
4:05:26to get rich. You have to risk looking
4:05:28weak to get strong. You have to risk
4:05:30looking desperate to get loved. Egos
4:05:32hold back more dreams than failure and
4:05:34rejection ever will.
4:05:48It's like risk not have not. It's like
4:05:50you have to put something on the altar
4:05:53at the most basic level. It's like the
4:05:54first step is what you're willing to
4:05:56lose. And it's
4:05:59it is trade of a known and inferior
4:06:02thing for a unknown and superior thing.
4:06:07And it's the fact that it's unknown that
4:06:09is the thing that bugs everyone.
4:06:10>> And I think
4:06:12most of
4:06:16gains, most of the gains in life and the
4:06:19the lack of gains come from
4:06:25being unwilling
4:06:32to sacrifice mediocrity.
4:06:37It's interesting to think about
4:06:38sacrificing mediocrity,
4:06:40>> right? But that is that I think that is
4:06:41the that is the appropriate term. People
4:06:44fear being less than extraordinary and
4:06:48in so doing sacrifice being
4:06:50extraordinary.
4:06:51>> Mhm.
4:06:54>> It's like you sacrifice one either way.
4:06:56And so either you sacrifice being
4:06:58extraordinary to be ordinary or you
4:07:01sacrifice ordinary for the chance at
4:07:03being extraordinary or less than
4:07:04ordinary.
4:07:05>> But if you really think about it, many
4:07:07people who are ordinary have failed. And
4:07:09so you're really just still ordinary.
4:07:11And so why would you not sacrifice
4:07:12ordinary for extraordinary?
4:07:16[ __ ] yeah, man. I appreciate you. It's
4:07:19always good to sit down with you.
4:07:21Pleasure was mine as always. All right.
4:07:23See you next time, everyone. Dude.
4:07:27Yes. Yes.
4:07:29>> So good.
4:07:31>> We speak [ __ ] [laughter]
4:07:36>> There we go. Sit back down. You can uh
4:07:39present you with two versions
4:07:42of a very famous photo that's going to
4:07:44be behind you for most of the episodes.
4:07:46>> A Rembrandt.
4:07:47>> Yeah.
4:07:47>> Uh an original.
4:07:48>> Yeah, this [laughter] is an original.
4:07:49I'm not sure if you've noticed.
4:07:50>> Um I'd like to thank my friends and
4:07:53family. Uh
4:07:55>> [laughter]
4:07:57>> Your hair is also really short here,
4:07:59too. So, you look like in this one, you
4:08:00look like a child with the
4:08:02>> I do. [laughter]
4:08:03>> I look like some sort of freak child
4:08:05with bicep veins.
4:08:06>> I think it's like ancient chip and
4:08:08nails.
4:08:09>> Yes, it is. But for some reason, For
4:08:10some reason, you're in Hawaiian shorts.
4:08:12I didn't notice that. And then the one
4:08:14behind it is the uh this is the
4:08:16original.
4:08:18>> All class.
4:08:19>> It's just Yeah. All class, no breaks. I
4:08:22love how they've kept me in a necklace,
4:08:24but this one's become like so Barack.
4:08:27>> Yeah, [laughter]
4:08:29>> we're a tasteful group.
4:08:30>> I think we're looking at at truth.
4:08:32>> That's true. That's correct. That's
4:08:34correct. Disregard risk. Look at truth.
4:08:36>> Yeah.
4:08:37>> Yeah. [ __ ] yeah.
4:08:41>> Congratulations. You made it to the end
4:08:42of a full podcast episode. You are not
4:08:44so Tik Tok brain that you've completely
4:08:46dissolved into nothingness.
4:08:49Why not watch another one right here?
4:08:53Go on, press it.

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