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25+ Years of Personal Branding Advice for Solo Creators — Transcript

by Caleb Ralston · 15,949 words · 2,241 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00Right now, you're building your personal
0:01brand by yourself. You don't have a team
0:03who is helping you do this whole thing.
0:06>> You're either starting or you're stuck
0:07at a point that you just can't seem to
0:09get past.
0:09>> And between Trevor and I, we have a
0:11combined over 20 years of experience
0:14building personal brands online. And
0:16today, we are going to do a slightly
0:18different style of video. It's going to
0:20be a podcast between Trevor and I where
0:22we talk through uh a couple of core
0:24things or core questions or problems
0:27that personal brands are facing. It's
0:29going to be wide content versus niche
0:31content, how to properly call out your
0:33desired customer, and whether or not you
0:35should focus on short form or long- form
0:38content. And so, the first thing that we
0:39want to get into is wide versus niche.
0:42And I figure what we can do is define
0:44some terms here and give context on what
0:47we mean by wide content and niche
0:50content. Really, when we think about
0:52wide content, this is content that is
0:55made not to serve our ideal customer,
0:58but to serve the general masses, right?
1:01What we've typically found, and I'm sure
1:03you see this all the time, is people who
1:05have a specialty or an expertise in an
1:07area, let's call it uh ecom business,
1:10right? And they they do that, but this
1:13is where they're talking about maybe
1:14personal development or relationship
1:17advice, right? This is wider content
1:19that is appealing to more people but
1:21doesn't necessarily have anything to do
1:24with their subject matter expertise.
1:26Then we have uh niche content. This is
1:28where you are making the content
1:30specifically to serve this avatar. And I
1:33know you have a lot of thoughts on this.
1:34This is where a lot of people get stuck
1:36in how they do their niche content.
1:37We'll talk about that here in a second.
1:39But niche content is essentially as it
1:42sounds. you are designing this content
1:45for a very specific avatar that you are
1:47trying to reach and typically this is
1:50very narrow and so yes it serves them
1:53but anybody that is outside of that
1:55world is not going to be interested or
1:58really get any value or usefulness out
2:00of the content.
2:01>> Yeah. They won't care.
2:01>> Yeah. The next one that we like to add
2:05in is actually nichewide content which
2:08we don't really see a lot of people
2:10talking about online. There's uh
2:12different frameworks out there. I know
2:13Patty Galloway has the CCN fit which I
2:16think is [clears throat] great
2:17>> and it's kind of similar but
2:19>> basically nichewide is when we are
2:21making content written and designed for
2:25our ideal customer but it also serves a
2:29broader group. I like to call them like
2:32ideal customer adjacent individuals,
2:34right? And we actually did a video like
2:36this uh a while ago on our YouTube
2:38channel. It was the one that we were
2:40rolling around all over Vegas filming
2:42the if you struggle with making content,
2:44please watch this. Right?
2:46>> And it's basically a video where I'm
2:48talking through the five biggest
2:49struggles or hurdles that I'm having to
2:51overcome in this whole crazy thing of
2:55like being public, putting content out
2:57there, building my personal brand. But
2:58what's cool is the way that you and I
3:00cuz we wrote that one together. The way
3:02that we wrote that is it wasn't just
3:04designed for the, you know,
3:06entrepreneur, the CEO or executive who's
3:09overthinking starting their personal
3:11brand. It serves them, but it also
3:13serves, as I like to always say, like
3:14the mom and dad who's overthinking
3:16sharing a carousel from their family
3:19road trip that they just got back from.
3:21You know, this is a way that we have
3:24found that you can increase the odds
3:28that more of your ideal customer
3:30actually sees your content by doing this
3:32because it's a wider or broader appeal,
3:36but it's not getting away from the core
3:38thing that you want to be talking about.
3:41>> Have you noticed that this is kind of a
3:43trend amongst people that they they
3:44don't seem to understand this kind of
3:47nuance of nichewide content? Yeah, it's
3:50it's a question that I get most often,
3:52which is like in short form content, is
3:55niche the way to go or is nichewide the
3:58way to go? Um, and the way that I've
4:00kind of like defined it for people is
4:02that niche content is really just making
4:05content uh solving problems for your
4:08ideal customer. And then nichewide, I
4:10just define it as making that applicable
4:11to everyone that could potentially be a
4:14customer like within that niche. Like
4:16>> that's a better definition than I just
4:18gave. Actually, that's really good.
4:19>> I appreciate that. I think we're going
4:20to talk about call outs here in a bit,
4:22but a lot of people like,
4:23>> are you uh a person struggling with
4:26blank or whatever in their uh in their
4:28YouTube videos, intros or whatever. And
4:31>> are you a busy executive with, you know,
4:33a 45 in waist and blah blah blah. Yeah.
4:35>> And we'll talk about why that's not even
4:37a good intro or or necessarily a a super
4:40good call out in a little bit. But the
4:43problem with that is when you think
4:45about that, okay, if you say that that's
4:48very niche, but then nichewide would be
4:51like, okay, what are the potential
4:52customers in the future?
4:54>> Mhm.
4:54>> Potential customers or maybe I'm not
4:56your potential like your ideal customer,
4:58but I'm going to send this to somebody
5:00who is, right? Like all those things. So
5:02when you do that and you put yourself in
5:04that hole, sometimes you actually you
5:05kind of pigeon hole yourself into like
5:08one thing when you use callouts.
5:10>> I have a question on that. I'm curious
5:12to hear from you. Would you say that
5:14potentially too by calling out a very
5:18specific avatar or a very niche avatar,
5:22>> you limit the potential reach because
5:23not every one of your avatars is
5:25necessarily going to self-identify in
5:28the way that you are labeling them?
5:29>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's that's a
5:32better way of putting what I was
5:33actually just talking about, which is
5:34like they won't how do they sometimes
5:37they don't know the problems that
5:38they're facing, right? like they can be
5:40your ideal customer, but labeling them
5:42in that way to your point, it's like,
5:45"Oh, wait. I don't actually know that
5:46I'm struggling with that." And so, if
5:47you don't tell me or you don't like, you
5:49know, you don't widen this thing up,
5:51sometimes you don't reach that person
5:52that could potentially be that customer.
5:54>> Let's put a a little a pin in that.
5:56We'll come back to that in a second, but
5:58let's talk through how we determine our
6:00ratio in the beginning,
6:02>> right? because there are different
6:04stages to this and we tend to have
6:07different beliefs in the ratio of niche
6:10uh nichewide and potentially wide
6:12content at different levels and stages
6:15of building your personal brand. So,
6:17let's speak to the solo creator who is
6:20starting out or they're stuck early on.
6:23They haven't gotten a lot of traction
6:25with their personal brand. How do you
6:27think about trying to determine what
6:30this ratio is at least in the beginning
6:32when you're building that foundation?
6:34>> It's a good question. I like I mean you
6:36and I like to start with depth. I think
6:37when we were 18 months ago when we were
6:39starting your brand, we had I
6:41distinctively remember conversations
6:43based around like we don't want to be
6:45known by everyone. We want to be known
6:46by the right people. Yes.
6:48>> Um and we also want to start with depth
6:51which I feel like creates the most
6:52impactful personal brands. And so taking
6:55a step back for just a second cuz we
6:57were just talking about nichewide and
6:58niche or deep deep in in nichewide. We
7:02were kind of talking about it in a way
7:03that like maybe frames niche is not the
7:06move. But I want to be clear that's not
7:09the case. We still even 18 months in are
7:13making very niche videos that like we
7:15posted a video last week that you were
7:17like I don't expect this to hit and it
7:20didn't. But we made that video spec like
7:23there was a specific entrepreneur, a big
7:25entrepreneur who commented in that
7:27comment section and you DM'd me and you
7:29were like it did its job. Like
7:31>> yeah, he literally reached out and was
7:33saying how uh right now he's really busy
7:35operating the business that he's working
7:37in. Makes sense. But the moment that he
7:39wants to or has the capacity to start
7:42taking his personal brand more
7:43seriously, he wants to work with us. And
7:45it was right after I could literally see
7:47the timestamps. He commented on the
7:49video and then within three minutes sent
7:51me that DM and even though it was an
7:54eight out of 10 that fulfilled its
7:56purpose. Yes. Now, what is the
7:59overarching theme of what we're talking
8:00about here? What we're talking about is
8:02determining what the outcome is that you
8:04desire. And so, this is where, you know,
8:07you could insert the brand journey
8:08framework. Anybody who's watching this
8:10has probably seen a lot of our content.
8:11So, I'm not necessarily going to go
8:13through that. Maybe we end up flashing
8:15it up on screen with the four questions
8:17that you can ask yourself. But it needs
8:19to be informed based on what you are
8:21trying to accomplish. Because also if
8:23you come into this game, you're starting
8:25your personal brand solo and your
8:27ambition isn't to grow a business or to
8:30reach a specific avatar uh like we are,
8:33but maybe your goal is just to help uh
8:36young women or young men navigate their
8:38careers and you don't have anything that
8:39you're selling, at least in the
8:40beginning, you're going to actually want
8:42to go wider and you're going to speak to
8:44a wider subject matter. [snorts] And so
8:47all of this, the way you determine your
8:50ratio is truly predicated purely and
8:53solely off of what are you wanting to
8:54have happen? And this is why we are
8:57going to hammer this until the days that
8:59we die, right? Because it's it's the
9:01most important decision that you need to
9:04make that it tips over all the other
9:06dominoes, right? We knew that we wanted
9:09to reach. I mean, what's really funny is
9:11actually we've broadened who we're
9:14reaching as we've made content because
9:16when we started, our only goal was to
9:19work with like CEOs of 9 figure plus
9:24businesses, right? And we didn't want to
9:26work with a bunch at a time. We were
9:28looking to take on two or three a year
9:30and that was what we were focused on.
9:32>> Mhm. [clears throat] And as we made
9:33content for those individuals, more
9:36people that didn't fit that were
9:38watching it, getting value, but then
9:40asking like, "Hey, can you make content
9:42for the solo creator who's starting out
9:44or stuck?" And guess what? That's what
9:46this why we're here. And we're doing
9:49this. And we actually ended up creating
9:50an offer within Rston called Rston
9:53Select. We ended up creating that
9:54because we ended up getting more demand
9:57from people outside of who we originally
9:59thought we were going to serve. And so
10:01it's crazy that I would give a quick
10:04little like caveat for a lot of people
10:06is a lot of people hear this and they
10:08get afraid that they're going to get
10:09stuck and I'm only going to be able to
10:11serve this person only talk about these
10:13subject matters and there's so much fear
10:15around this like I will be this forever
10:19and one I don't necessarily think
10:20there's anything inherently wrong with
10:22that but if you get bored you can always
10:23add in more or if you end up providing
10:27so much value because you are so
10:30targeted and focused on who you're
10:32trying to serve, you end up reaching
10:33people outside of that, they demand for
10:35more. You can determine whether or not
10:38your business, your operation wants to
10:40serve those individuals, which we did.
10:42>> Yeah.
10:42>> And so now what started as a very narrow
10:46TAM has become a little bit wider,
10:48right? We don't necessarily talk about
10:50personal brand for everybody. We still
10:52talk about personal brand in the context
10:54of having a business outcome usually,
10:56right? And so there is still that
10:58narrowing of our topic of our focus. We
11:01are a little bit more niche still, but I
11:03would argue we've gotten a little bit
11:06more nichewide. Not with all of our
11:08content, but with some pieces. To your
11:10point, our most recent video was wildly
11:12narrow. It was basically talking about
11:14why successful entrepreneurs struggle
11:16with personal brand.
11:17>> Yeah. Like the time constraints and
11:18stuff like that.
11:19>> Yeah. Like we were speaking to a very
11:20specific person that 99% of our audience
11:23does not fall into that category.
11:24>> I sent you a Slack message. I had to
11:26like almost catch it's funny when you do
11:28this, you'll catch yourself too of like
11:29uh we had a specific purpose and a
11:31specific reason for that video being so
11:33narrow. And then I like I sent you that
11:36packaging. Uh I did a few packaging
11:38swaps in the first 24 hours and I was
11:40like it's just not nothing's catching
11:41on. And I was like it's it's really just
11:43mapping to like the ABD is going to be
11:45lower because it's successful. Why
11:47successful entrepreneurs? It'll be
11:49specifically like the TAM there is just
11:51if successful entrepreneurs which people
11:53have to self-define if they are
11:55successful or not and most people are
11:56more self-critical meaning that like hey
11:58successful people I'm not a successful
12:00person even if I run a multi-million
12:03dollar business but the thing that we
12:04were just beating up I feel like answers
12:06a lot of the question of where to start.
12:08I think we're about to go into this, but
12:10like we always prefer to start narrow
12:13niche deep as like as deep as possible
12:16with a core audience. Not only because
12:18it's easier to gain trust with those
12:20individuals, but also it's not like you
12:23don't just stay there, you can expand
12:26slowly. And so, one thing that I want to
12:28make really clear to everyone because
12:30this is where a lot of people hit me up
12:31and they're like, I'm just not gaining
12:33traction. I have three views on my
12:35latest reel and like it's it's very deep
12:38content, but it's just not working. In
12:39[clears throat] the beginning, after a
12:41certain amount of time, you can then
12:43begin to niche wide. I never want to go
12:45wide necessarily, unless it's like for
12:48personal content that like we posted a
12:50clip of you and me talking about Star
12:52Wars with like [laughter]
12:54>> just just for like a personal like it's
12:56a funny moment. I'm not saying that you
12:59you don't need traction, especially
13:01these days on these platforms. you do,
13:03right? It's going to be hard to scale a
13:05business with three views on average per
13:07reel, right? Uh we've seen people be
13:09successful with a small amount of
13:10followers, less than 50,000. We've seen
13:12multi-million dollar businesses being
13:14built, but you do need some amount of
13:18traction. And so that's where I
13:19recommend people start as deep as niche
13:22as possible. If we're going to talk
13:24about ratios like we recommend 75 80% of
13:28your content in the beginning niche and
13:30then if it's not working over time or if
13:33you need more and more traction slowly
13:36open up slowly open up the dial right
13:39slowly turn it up.
13:40>> It's interesting because basically we
13:42started super niche but would you say
13:46that that is the right move for the
13:49person starting off? They have zero
13:50subscribers on YouTube right now.
13:52they're going to make their first video.
13:54Do you think making a wildly deep video
13:57is the right move or would you say would
14:01you say we even did that? Would you say
14:02our first video was a wildly deep video
14:05or was it a little bit wider actually
14:07and our second video was deeper?
14:09>> Ooh, that's a good question. Now, we're
14:11going to like nerd out and I'm probably
14:12going to ask you some questions cuz I
14:13think that like maybe we can uncover a
14:15couple new things here. Um, I would say
14:18our first video was a little bit more
14:20applicable. It was deep and like the
14:21lessons were like pretty like you have
14:23to really care in order to like
14:25understand like you because our first
14:27video for for those who are unfamiliar
14:29was just like a my career video. It was
14:31like 16 years of building personal
14:32brands to x million followers. And so I
14:35would say it was a little bit wider
14:38within the pond that we were playing in
14:40but the pond was smaller as in we we
14:45didn't just talk about brands. We talked
14:46about personal brands. We talked about
14:47educational personal brands. Like there
14:50actually might be a second layer here
14:51which is you talk about like the what
14:53pond you're playing in which I I would
14:54love to hear you kind of define for the
14:56audience right now.
14:57>> But I would say within that pond it was
14:59a little bit wider.
15:00>> I'm glad you went here. This is where
15:02everybody needs to start. As soon as you
15:03figure out what you want to have happen,
15:04what the outcome is that you want, you
15:07then need to figure out what pond am I
15:08going to compete in? And so back to that
15:10ecom example, if somebody had great
15:13success with an e-commerce business,
15:14they're probably a savage with
15:16e-commerce. That doesn't necessarily
15:19mean that they are a savage with a
15:21brickandmortar business or a
15:23service-based business. And so what I
15:25mean by pond is a lot of people who have
15:28success in one type of business or one
15:31type of athletic endeavor or health
15:33pursuit then make the assumption that
15:35they should compete at the highest level
15:37of that category. It's the people that
15:39have success in ecom and then say, "I'm
15:41going to be a business creator and I'm
15:43going to compete with people who have
15:45experience building ecom service, uh,
15:47brickandmortar, right? Like all of these
15:49different types of businesses." What
15:51chance do you think that you stand to
15:53compete in that, right? Like for for us,
15:56we were very intentional with the pond
15:57that we chose. It's not like we chose to
15:59talk about brand. I'm not talking about
16:01brand as a whole. I don't speak to, you
16:03know, these like luxury uh brands like
16:06Louis Vuitton and [ __ ] like that. like I
16:08don't that's not my world. I don't have
16:10experience there like I do on personal
16:12brand. Sure, I've done some stuff in
16:14that world. Uh I've probably spent about
16:16I would say three or four years working
16:18on non-personal brands, but out of my
16:21career, that's a small chunk. And as far
16:24as my big W's, my wins, they've been
16:26within the world of personal branding.
16:28But even chunk down from that, it's
16:30personal branding for business owners.
16:31>> It's well, it's it's it's chunked down a
16:34couple times. It's educational personal
16:36brands, but then chunking down more,
16:37it's business educational personal
16:39brands.
16:40>> Yeah. Yeah. And so we've been very
16:42intentional with the pond that we chose.
16:44And people I think are kind of like
16:46surprised at the Well, what's funny is,
16:49you know, half the people are like
16:50shocked at the growth. The other people
16:52are like, I knew this was coming or
16:53whatever. And I'm always like, you did,
16:55I did not. But I [snorts] think that
16:58part of the reason why we've had the
17:00growth that we've had so quickly is
17:02because we understood the pond that we
17:05were competing in and we decided we in
17:09that pond will serve those other fish
17:12more than any other
17:14>> fisher [snorts]
17:15in the pond. I don't know. I'm starting
17:17fisherman. Yeah, the analogy is falling
17:19apart here.
17:20we decided we're going to solve the most
17:22amount of problems for that specific
17:24person than anybody else. Now, what's
17:27really cool as a side note, the the
17:29benefit of doing this is you start to
17:32see other people in the pond start
17:34adding more value into the pond. And so,
17:36by doing this, you not only serve
17:38yourself, you serve the greater
17:40ecosystem as a whole. It's like a really
17:41cool thing. But everyone here needs to
17:44pick the right and appropriate pond. And
17:47how do you pick the right pond? It's
17:49predicated on what you've done,
17:51>> your expertise.
17:52>> Yeah. And and real quick, because we
17:55know who we're speaking to here and we
17:57read the comments, it's not just the
17:59experts, though. There's also the
18:00students, right? And especially at this
18:02stage, a lot of people that are watching
18:05this might feel like, I don't know if I
18:07fall into the expert or student
18:08category. So, once you've chosen your
18:11pond, right? You know what you want to
18:12have happen. We know our desired outcome
18:15and that's going to inform a lot of what
18:17we're going to do next. Then we're going
18:18to pick the pond which is predicated on
18:20what have you done? What have you
18:22accomplished? Right?
18:23>> And that's if you're the expert. So the
18:26expert picks the pond based on what they
18:28have done. And ideally the pond you
18:31choose is full of people that want to
18:33accomplish the thing that you have done.
18:35That's going to be the best version of
18:36this. Right? That's the expert. Now a
18:40lot of people in the comment section
18:42will be like well I haven't accomplished
18:43anything big yet. I haven't done the
18:45thing that my big wins.
18:47>> Yeah. I don't have these big W's, Caleb.
18:48I don't have these big W's, Trevor. And
18:51the the answer is is then, okay, what
18:54are you in pursuit of accomplishing?
18:57[laughter]
18:58>> You're the student, which means you're
18:59learning your way to some sort of
19:01outcome, right? And in the beginning,
19:03sometimes the outcomes are a little bit
19:04more vague. And as you go, that gets
19:06more specific. But ideally, the most
19:08specific outcome or uh accomplishment
19:11that you're looking to achieve, if you
19:13can define that, that's going to be the
19:15pond that you choose.
19:17>> But instead of posturing yourself like
19:19you're the expert and you're teaching
19:20people what to do to get what you have,
19:23well, you don't have what they want. You
19:25are in pursuit of it. And so, you're the
19:27guinea pig. You're the the test subject.
19:31You're making the time, money,
19:33relationship, investments to pursue this
19:36thing and then you can bring everybody
19:38in your pond along with you
19:40>> as you do this so that they don't have
19:42to make the same level of investment to
19:44learn.
19:45>> That that's interesting. Um cuz we've
19:48talked about like student versus expert
19:50and obviously the pond like a lot of
19:52time experts have to pond uh down but
19:56what's interesting is I think where
19:57students go wrong is they try and look
19:59at the person who is like owning one of
20:01the biggest pawns and try and be that.
20:04Yes.
20:04>> And that is actually the reason for
20:06their not success.
20:08>> Yes.
20:09>> Yeah.
20:09>> And like we need to just like say it
20:11once and for all. There is not a world
20:14where you are going to gain more success
20:16pretending to be an expert when you are
20:18actually a student. You will get better
20:20traction doing the student route. I mean
20:22we've seen it time and time again on our
20:24Tik Tok and Instagram and all the other
20:26feeds where it's like day one of
20:28learning blah blah blah
20:29>> and people love that [ __ ] They love to
20:31come along the journey. And so you will
20:33find great traction. You won't be
20:35positioned in the same way and you
20:37probably need to make sure that your
20:39offer is reflective of that. But I will
20:42tell you, you will gain extreme
20:43traction. The key is being honest with
20:45yourself and then being honest with your
20:47audience because there's nothing worse
20:49than when people find out that someone
20:51who is pretending to be an expert is
20:53actually a student.
20:54>> And a quick qualifier I have to give.
20:55Every [ __ ] expert should remain a
20:57student at all times. We always want to
20:58be learning. We always want to be That's
21:00not the point here. That's not the
21:01statement that we're making. We're
21:02delineating how [snorts] are you framing
21:05what you communicate to your audience?
21:07Are you framing it from the frame of the
21:09expert or the frame of the student?
21:11>> Yeah, that that's interesting. So, I
21:13would say right off the bat, just like
21:15kind of loop back around, we did narrow
21:17our TAM a lot to like a a deeper
21:20audience right off the bat before we
21:22even started making content before we
21:23even like do we do we uh go deep or or
21:27nichewide for for that content. We
21:29immediately eliminated all like a ton of
21:31tams.
21:32>> So, why did it end up going as well as
21:34it has? Like you would argue, yes, we
21:39sandbagged ourselves by having a very
21:41narrow TAM, total addressable market.
21:43Basically, we had a very small pool of
21:45people that we were making content for.
21:47And yet it kind of in our world, in our
21:51context, relative to the size of our
21:53channel, it blew up.
21:55>> Why do you think that was? if we were
21:57making content for probably one out of
21:59every 20,000 people
22:02>> at most like why did it end up hitting
22:05>> I mean there's probably a couple reasons
22:07I mean it always goes back to like if
22:08you try to reach everyone you reach no
22:10one that's that's definitely true in
22:12this sense but it's also uh a case of
22:14like I think it's trust as in once you
22:17establish trust with a core group of
22:19people I think it's easier to then gain
22:21trust with an expanded group of people
22:24>> trust is just the measurement that
22:26someone believes you're going to meet or
22:28exceed expectations based on what you've
22:30done in the past,
22:30>> right? And that can be good or bad,
22:32right? They can trust in a negative way
22:34or they can trust in a positive way.
22:36>> Trust is not inherently uh
22:39[clears throat] positive or negative. It
22:40just is and it can go in a positive or a
22:43negative direction. And so I think once
22:45you have positive extreme positive trust
22:48with a core group of people, I think it
22:50then becomes easier to then gain trust
22:53with a little bit more expanded group.
22:55And that's why I recommend that people
22:57widen this up over time because boom,
23:00you gain trust with this people, then
23:01you gain trust with these people, then
23:02you gain Right. It just ever expands. Do
23:04you think there's an element too to the
23:07fact that like we our second video was
23:10such a big give that even though a lot
23:13of it was maybe not applicable to some
23:15of the people who are getting a lot of
23:16value out of this podcast, they still
23:19consumed it and still wanted more
23:21content from us because of that.
23:23>> As in because it was so valuable like
23:25the thing was just such a
23:26>> Yeah. And and in a world where so many
23:29people, especially before we started,
23:31you know, really pushing this whole
23:33course thing in our industry, there
23:34there's plenty of other niches and
23:36industries where people were giving out
23:37free courses and that was really big in
23:40a lot of other worlds on YouTube, just
23:42not ours. And so maybe they saw even
23:45though we were making content that was
23:47three levels above them, maybe they felt
23:50like there was a world where if they
23:52comment enough or something like that,
23:54we would end up making like I'm just
23:55curious what your perspective is on like
23:57how it ended up clicking with people
23:59that were pretty wide outside cuz you
24:02see the comments on that course.
24:04>> Musicians are asking questions about it.
24:07We have people that are completely
24:08outside of our avatar that we're trying
24:11to reach that are getting value but
24:13asking for different versions of it.
24:16>> I know with like musicians and stuff.
24:17>> Yeah. Like people want a full how to
24:19build your brand as a musician course
24:21>> and we have not done that to be fair
24:23because it's not who we speak to. It's
24:24not our pond. But yes, that second
24:26video, that second video for everyone
24:28being a 6 and a half hour free course on
24:30YouTube, we talk about it as a
24:31positioning statement of like here's our
24:33pond. Boom. nobody else in our pond is
24:35doing this and we are now like we are
24:36going to immediately put this out and
24:38immediately all the fish are going to
24:39look to us right um when we do that
24:42>> I think that yes seeing that core value
24:45but I would argue we made it though for
24:48that core group we didn't make it for
24:50musicians musicians that just then
24:52started after seeing the trust that we
24:54build with that audience they then start
24:56looking at that piece and go wait there
24:58are things that I can learn from this as
24:59well but we made it with honestly we
25:02made it with a deep content in mind. We
25:04made that with like we're talking to
25:06people make these like avatars with like
25:08advanced Adam or or simple Samuel or
25:13whatever it is, right? Like uh these
25:15like uh avat these basic avatars in
25:18their head and they're like I'm just
25:19going to make it for the advanced Adam
25:20or whatever it is. uh we like to speak
25:22to a specific person in mind where it's
25:25like I think it makes it more personable
25:27where like this this six and a half hour
25:29course you were speaking to a character
25:31uh from your past, one of your very good
25:33very close friends that was recently uh
25:37onboarded as a content director for a
25:39big entrepreneur.
25:40>> And so you're speaking to the person who
25:42needs to build out an entrepreneur's
25:45personal brand. So like that's the frame
25:47that we took with that entire 6 and 1
25:48half hour course.
25:50>> Yes. And that I believe just makes it
25:52like that that deep content for that
25:54person. But that trust that we establish
25:56with that audience and everyone seeing
25:59the trust that how strong that trust is
26:01with that audience then immediately goes
26:02like oh wait there's something that I
26:04can learn. There's something that I can
26:05take away and then it starts expanding
26:07into its own kind of like
26:09>> it was deep originally and now it's more
26:11nichewide.
26:11>> You know what I think it might be? Uh, I
26:14think we're both kind of like verbal or
26:16typing out processors. And so what
26:19people are getting to see is kind of
26:20what our, you know, 4hour Zoom sessions
26:23when we're writing a video looks like.
26:25But I think a big part of it actually
26:26now that we're talking about it I think
26:28a huge reason is when you try to serve
26:32too many people at once you are only
26:34able to go to a certain level of depth
26:36in solving a problem because you have to
26:40make an assumption that everybody is
26:42starting from the same knowledge point
26:43or the same starting point. Right? And
26:46when you have too big of a group there's
26:48way too much variance.
26:49>> Mhm. When you make a very like a video
26:52very specifically for a very specific
26:55group, you can make a lot of assumptions
26:57and you can go a lot deeper on solving
27:00problems. If we look at our YouTube
27:02channel right now, the videos that I
27:03think have done the best, we have been
27:05the most specific about who the [ __ ]
27:07this video is for.
27:08>> Yeah. Down to a a name. Down to a name
27:11in real life. A real life person. And
27:13when we have and we're human and so as
27:16much as we talk about start your videos
27:18with what problem you're trying to solve
27:20for who, there's been a video or two
27:23that I've come to you and I'm like I
27:24think this will go wide.
27:26>> And guess what it doesn't do? It doesn't
27:27do [ __ ] Those are our bottom
27:29performers. You know, there was this
27:31amazing trend that a lot of people were
27:32taking advantage of of like, give me 60
27:33seconds and I'll do blank. And I wrote a
27:35video because
27:36>> I wasn't trying to serve anybody
27:38specifically. I wrote it because I
27:40thought it would do well.
27:42>> Interesting.
27:43>> And it's one of, if not our lowest
27:45performing video versus our highest
27:48performing video, the one that we did
27:49not optimize for views in any single
27:51[ __ ] way, the 6 and 1 half hour
27:53course has 1.1 million views.
27:56>> And I believe it's because we actually
27:59really truly go to the core of the
28:02problems that the person that we wrote
28:03it for is facing. And by doing that I
28:06think we actually end up solving more
28:09people's problems indirectly.
28:12>> And the thing that we also saw is we had
28:16a lot of people they were sharing our
28:19course on YouTube on our behalf for
28:21free.
28:22>> Yeah.
28:23>> People start and why there there's a
28:25couple of things. One branding is just
28:27the pairing of things. And so if I
28:30introduce you to something that brings
28:31value into your life, you associate that
28:33value with me. Right? It's like when you
28:36introduce a friend to a new restaurant
28:37that they just become obsessed with. At
28:39a very small level, that does something
28:42for your relationship. They trust your
28:44recommendations more. They every time
28:45they go, they're like, "Oh man, Trevor
28:47introduced me to this awesome spot. I
28:48love this spot." Right? And on a bigger
28:50level, if something leads to a big
28:52outcome for your business, my god, that
28:54association is amazing. And so, what we
28:56started seeing is all these creators on
28:58Instagram promoting it. You know,
29:01comment blank and I'll send you Caleb's
29:03course. It was [ __ ] insane.
29:05>> Yeah.
29:06>> In the beginning, we encourage people to
29:08accept a narrow tam.
29:12>> But the key is is don't be dull, boring,
29:16and basic for that narrow tam. That is
29:19the recipe. That is the formula for like
29:22nothing to happen. Nobody's going to
29:24give a [ __ ] If you select a small group
29:28that you are wildly confident that you
29:30can serve, you will end up serving more
29:33than that group. That's huge. That's
29:35actually ginormous. And I think people
29:37need to accept that in the beginning.
29:39But then you have something that I hear
29:40you talk about a lot, which is if 6
29:43months in to accepting that
29:45[clears throat] and truly trying to
29:47solve those problems like actually not
29:50teasing or valueging the solution,
29:53giving the real solution. If after six
29:55months of doing that you're not getting
29:56traction, that's when you typically I
29:58see you recommend to a lot of RS and
30:00Slack members like this is where we need
30:02to start implementing more nichewide. We
30:04still write it to serve but we wrap it
30:07>> for a wider group. Can you just speak to
30:08what that looks like like in the
30:10mechanics? Yeah, and and to be fair, I
30:14recommend this only after people have
30:16really honed in on their brand
30:17positioning and their content strategy,
30:19which is what I believe honestly is the
30:21is the problem the majority of the time.
30:23I think that like people are like deep
30:25is not working. It's usually one like
30:27those two things before it is ever like
30:29sure we need to go much much wider. I
30:32think even the deepest of niches online
30:34with interest with like the rise of
30:36interest media. It's just false. Like my
30:39my thing that I talk about is too small.
30:41My TAM is too narrow. uh you know like I
30:45speak to personal brands uh for business
30:48owners that do I don't know uh CPG
30:52products for like you know like you can
30:54get so so narrow and specific and I
30:57still think that there is a lot of
30:58people that you can reach. So that
31:00that's kind of the the core thing there.
31:02But to your point of like when do I
31:03recommend this? It's typically after
31:06like 3 to 6 months of actually doing the
31:08thing of actually making deep content
31:10because I want to be clear sometimes
31:12when I click on these people's profiles
31:14or like YouTube videos and I'm like this
31:16is not deep content. This is what
31:17everybody else in your space is saying
31:19which I would argue again to my point is
31:22a brand positioning is a positioning
31:24problem. And I'm like fix that before
31:26you you go wider like you're you're just
31:28saying what everyone else says.
31:29Something interesting that popped up
31:31when you were saying that is I think
31:32there's a tension.
31:34>> We've never I've never said this before.
31:37Here we go.
31:37>> There is a tension between people's
31:39desired outcome and the TAM. There is a
31:42tension between the desired outcome they
31:44have and the group they're serving. So
31:46when we hear people say things like
31:48>> the the niche I'm serving, the group of
31:50people I'm serving isn't enough. There's
31:52not enough people. What that really is
31:55describing to me is you have a much
31:57bigger desired outcome than what your
32:01abilities or credibility are able to
32:03execute right now. Meaning maybe you
32:07have ambitions of building a $250
32:10million business and that's your real
32:12desired outcome. That's a big outcome
32:14and I I applaud you for that and I'm all
32:16for it. I love the big ambitions. So
32:18let's just go with that example. But you
32:21starting off are going to make content
32:24for people who own businesses building
32:27their personal brand in the educational
32:28space like we're doing, right?
32:30>> Uh I do not have ambitions of building a
32:31$250 million company for example or for
32:34u
32:35>> context here. But we'll use me as an
32:37example here.
32:38>> My TAM would not be able to support that
32:40outcome right now. And so I think what a
32:44lot of people need to realize is sure
32:47maybe you do have I'm not saying
32:49anything is too niche, but some things
32:51are so niche that it is a smaller group,
32:54right? There are less business owners
32:56than there are women who wear makeup.
32:59>> That is just a fact, right? There are
33:01less business owners than there are men
33:04who want to get a six-pack by summer,
33:06right? There are different niches and
33:08TAMs that have wider or more people
33:12within it. Just because your desired
33:14outcome maps towards having a really
33:16wide TAM does not mean that when you are
33:18starting off, you can compete in the
33:20wide TAM pond. And so you need to pick
33:22the pond that you have the credibility
33:24to compete in and then pond your way up
33:28to that eventual spot, right? Like Gary
33:32Vee was never going to buy the Jets just
33:35off of Wine Library,
33:37>> the business, the wine business that he
33:39uh started running with his father,
33:41right? And then when he started talking
33:44more about marketing and the early days
33:46of Vayner Media and speaking, that
33:48wasn't going to buy him the Jets. Then
33:49he started do and the business grew and
33:52what he talked about grew and expanded
33:54over time. Now he talks about personal
33:55development which has led to V friends.
33:58so many other things in that obviously
34:00in that train and everything like that.
34:02But I think a lot of people need to be
34:06able to separate you figure out what
34:08your desired outcome is
34:10>> and then [clears throat] are you at a
34:11point where you can direct line to that?
34:14Most people can't. Do you see what I'm
34:16saying here? Like I think there's an
34:17interesting little disconnect that a lot
34:19of people have that they're mislabeling
34:21something.
34:22>> Yeah. We're we're we're verbally
34:24processing right now. I think this might
34:25be actually cool for people to see of
34:27like we're uncovering this thing. Maybe
34:29we'll make a video about it. It goes
34:30back to I think what you just put words
34:33to what I was describing a little bit
34:34earlier. Not to take credit or anything,
34:37but like you're you're you're processing
34:39this better than I am, which is uh once
34:41you have trust with a core group, it's
34:43easier to establish trust with others
34:46because I think everything, especially
34:48online, all these niches, all these
34:51these ponds are connected in some way by
34:54some sort of we're going to go with the
34:56analogy here, there's some sort of
34:57waterway connecting all these ponds. And
35:00so the reason I think to your point that
35:03musicians start consuming the personal
35:05brand course, the free course that we
35:07put out is we made it for this core
35:09group, this TAM, this this thing that we
35:12could we think we can own right now, but
35:15people see the success in that pond.
35:18They're sharing this thing on their
35:20stories. They're sharing this thing
35:21everywhere they are. And this business
35:23owner runs an offer for serving
35:26musicians, right? them sharing that gets
35:30all of the musicians to this thing and
35:32then they start, you know, and so that's
35:34how the web starts expanding
35:37slowly over time. And so that's I'm
35:41curious if you think but that's probably
35:43the way that you ponder over time.
35:46>> So would you say that this is the
35:47strategy to fast track your personal
35:50brand growth
35:50>> is is what is
35:52>> is starting narrow and going really
35:55deep. Do you think like people can
35:57expect that they'll blow up in 2 months?
35:59>> Oh, I understand what you're saying. No,
36:00no, not at all. Because that happened so
36:03slowly over time for us. I'm shocked it
36:06happened as quickly as it did. I mean,
36:08it took, you know, a year, 18 months,
36:10and we're now the course is over like a
36:12million views and and I would say we're
36:13just now starting to expand that niche
36:16to nichewide um a little bit more. But
36:19again, still 70% of our content is deep.
36:21But no, it's not something that happens
36:23overnight. It's not something that
36:25happens in two, three months. It happens
36:28very slowly over time. And I would argue
36:31that the people it happens to insanely
36:33quickly cuz there are cases, right,
36:36where you make a very viral piece of
36:39content, especially on short form, not
36:40as much long form, I would argue, but
36:42short form especially, you can make a
36:44piece that then just goes absolutely
36:46insane. And I would argue for the vast
36:48majority of those creators, it's a
36:50detriment to their long-term personal
36:52brand instead of a like it's nice and at
36:55that time and 6 12 months, 3 years
36:58later, it's a detriment because they no
37:01longer have that sustained attention,
37:03that sustained audience um because they
37:06didn't build that core audience. They
37:08just started reaching everyone. And so
37:10this is where like we talk about like
37:12when you start with that depth. If I
37:14logged in and deleted your YouTube
37:15channel tomorrow, your Instagram would
37:18be like, "Where the hell is your YouTube
37:20channel?" And everyone, you would have
37:22thousands of messages of people being
37:24like, "What's happening? Where are you?"
37:26Like, "What happened?" You only get that
37:27with starting with depth in my
37:29>> That might be a fun little
37:32YouTube channel.
37:32>> Maybe not delete, but [laughter] maybe I
37:34don't know. That may be kind of fun to
37:35>> unlist them all.
37:36>> Yeah. Like like unlist them for like a
37:38month or something like that. Like go
37:39dark in December or something like that.
37:41>> We're going to test this. So, we're
37:42going to unlist everything tomorrow.
37:44>> So, what I always like to say just to
37:46kind of sum up this this section here is
37:50>> you should start deep. Uh I'm not a
37:54construction expert, but I know the
37:56basics, which is when people are
37:58constructing a building, you build a
38:01foundation by going down,
38:04>> not wide. You don't build the foundation
38:06on width first. You go deep into the
38:09ground first. And so we always encourage
38:11people to do the same. Start with the
38:12deep foundation, the stuff that most
38:14people won't see. Most people don't see
38:17the house foundation. Most people see
38:18the stuff on top, the bedrooms and the
38:20living room and all of that [ __ ] But
38:22start with the foundation and then
38:25everything on top will actually be
38:27strong and can withstand the and as
38:31cheesy as this will sound, every
38:33personal brand goes through their own
38:34version of storms. There's different
38:37things. a clip that you post gets taken
38:40out of context or misunderstood or
38:42whatever, these things happen. And so a
38:44strong foundation can help you weather
38:47those storms. Part of that is that
38:49strong foundation is the strong audience
38:52that you build a connection with. And so
38:54if somebody misunderstands something in
38:56your comment section before you can even
38:58go in and correct it, you have people
39:00that are in your audience doing that on
39:02your behalf.
39:03>> But the key here, expectations are
39:05really important. and I say something
39:08and I've been saying this probably since
39:11uh since I was working for Gary on team
39:13Gary and I would meet with people and
39:15give them advice that you know would
39:17come through wanting content strategy
39:19and stuff. I've been saying this forever
39:21and it used to be really well accepted.
39:23Now people hate when I say it because we
39:25are just not patient anymore. But I
39:27always tell people build this and put
39:29massive amounts of effort and expect
39:31nothing good for 36 months.
39:33>> That's 3 years. But if you do that, I
39:37believe you have the right attitude to
39:39be able to actually provide value
39:41without needing to see an immediate
39:43return. Because where people get this
39:45wrong is they pour so much effort into
39:48it like we're saying and they [snorts]
39:50don't understand that it's not like your
39:52third, fourth, or fifth video is going
39:54to hit.
39:56>> That happens, but that is an exception.
39:58That is not the majority. And so if you
40:00go in with the expectation that it's
40:02going to take me 3 years to get any sort
40:04of meaningful outcome [clears throat]
40:05and you get it within 8 months or 18
40:08months, then you're
40:11surprised in a positive direction, not
40:13surprised in like a oh my god, I've put
40:15all this effort in and gotten nothing in
40:16return. And so I think another missing
40:19element here that people need to round
40:21this all out everything that we've been
40:23saying you need to be doing this and
40:24then you need to start with the
40:26expectation that you can go for 3 years
40:28without this leading to any sort of
40:30meaningful outcomes. I've seen it happen
40:32way sooner happened way sooner for us
40:33but I didn't go into it with the
40:35expectation like you saw I never could
40:38have imagined that we would ever hit
40:40100,000 subscribers let alone in our
40:42first 18 months. M I think I was saying,
40:45man, if we could get to 10,000 in the
40:46first year, that'd be [ __ ] crazy.
40:4810,000 people that want to watch another
40:50video about personal branding from me,
40:52my god. Right. But going in with those
40:54expectations allowed us to have more
40:57reinforcement rather than less.
41:00>> And that's where I think a lot of people
41:01end up giving up way too early or giving
41:03up before they actually see the the
41:05point where they tip over the edge and
41:07start going downhill instead of just
41:08running uphill. to wrap this up my my
41:12kind of question to loop back around to
41:13our promise that we that we kind of like
41:15were talking about here in the beginning
41:17which is determining their ratio. Mhm.
41:19>> So somebody determine their ratio. Is it
41:22a time thing? Is it a like is it in
41:25relation to the amount of time they you
41:28know you know what I'm saying here? Like
41:30>> we have a ratio that we typically
41:31recommend which is 7525.
41:3475% is deep, 20% is nichewide and 5% is
41:38actually personal. What's funny about
41:41the ratio is it gets misunderstood as
41:43like if I have 10 posts then seven and a
41:46half of them need to be deep. uh two of
41:48them need to be nichewide and then half
41:51of them needs to be a personal post. And
41:55what that actually looks like is more of
41:57a ratio of how your content as a whole
41:59plays out. That 5% personal doesn't need
42:02to be its own individual piece. I want
42:04people to sprinkle that 5% throughout
42:07the other 95% of their content. as in,
42:11you know, I'm constantly referencing my
42:13Harley-Davidsons or going to a metal
42:16show and getting punched in the face.
42:17Like, I haven't been to one in, you
42:18know, like probably 7 months now and I
42:20need to go. I'm always referencing these
42:22things which is integrating right my
42:25personal elements into the deep content
42:27that we make
42:28>> not just like individualized posts.
42:30>> I would roughly have it be 75% of your
42:33content should be niche content that is
42:35serving only written only written and
42:39packaged for your ideal customer. Now uh
42:43I'm not saying that you should sandbag
42:44your packaging. You need to get really
42:46good at how you package for that ideal
42:48customer because just because you make
42:50it plain and simple doesn't mean that
42:52it's going to all of a sudden magically
42:53reach them. That's a whole different
42:55conversation. But you need to do that.
42:57And then 25% of your content should be
42:59that nichewide. It's written to serve
43:01your ideal customer, but it also serves
43:03a greater group as a whole.
43:05>> An example of this, I'm not saying we're
43:06going to do this, but an example could
43:07be a video that is written for the
43:10business owner, but also directly
43:13applies to musicians. Yeah,
43:15>> that would be our version of a nichewide
43:17video as another example here.
43:19>> Uh, in the beginning as a correct in the
43:23beginning. And if you're if you're not
43:25finding traction after 6 months, I would
43:27say 50/50.
43:28>> Yeah. Oh, interesting.
43:30>> Would you agree with that?
43:31>> I would say the advice I usually give is
43:34opening it up slowly that in 5 to 10%
43:38increments. Yes. As in like so uh 6
43:41months in if you're not getting any
43:43traction. whatsoever. Again, look at
43:46your content strategy. How are your
43:47hooks? Like, do they suck? Are you just
43:49in your brand positioning? Are you
43:51ripping off everyone? Okay. Like, and
43:53just regurgitating advice. But if it's
43:56truly like you're just struggling with
43:57traction there, I typically like, okay,
43:59for the next month, open it up 10%. Go
44:0235%
44:03uh nichewide and 65, I believe that's
44:06math, uh 65%
44:08deep. Now, let's move to call outs. And
44:11by the way, call outs are not
44:12necessarily just hooks in short form. It
44:13can be titles on YouTube videos, right?
44:15So, let's start by can you define what a
44:18call out is?
44:20>> First and foremost, it's a mechanism to
44:21drive curiosity in the specific person
44:23that you want to reach. And typically
44:25what that looks like, the the best
44:28version of a call out is typically
44:30calling out where a person where the
44:33specific person you want to reach is,
44:36has been, or wants to be. Um, and you
44:38typically do that through uh accessing
44:41their pain or the outcome of their pain.
44:44And so I I did a lot of layers there,
44:46but essentially a call out is it's you
44:48want to speak to the pain of where they
44:50have been, where they are, or where they
44:51want to be. Uh, to kind of like wrap up
44:54in general, a call out could be a few
44:56other things, but I believe the most
44:57effective version is that pain or an
45:00outcome of the pain. you give this
45:03really great example of if you hear a
45:06hook that is like are you tired of being
45:08bald all the time you're like eh
45:10>> first and foremost again to the point of
45:12like some people might not actually know
45:14that like that's their problem or a
45:15problem that they I don't actually know
45:17if I was tired of being bald um but if
45:19you speak to the outcome of that pain or
45:21the consequence of that pain which is
45:23like are you tired of wearing a hat all
45:25the time is the example you use that's
45:27an interesting one
45:28>> or another one like are you tired of
45:30being embarrassed at the pool taking
45:31your shirt off Yeah. Yeah. Like rather
45:33than are you trying to lose 20 lb? It's
45:35like no that like maybe I'm not willing
45:38to say that
45:39>> but damn I know every time that I've
45:42been at the pool I'm a little insecure
45:45about taking my shirt off and that hits.
45:47>> Are you tired of people judging you?
45:48Yeah. Like like those are the
45:50consequences of the pain and so but that
45:52>> are you tired of saying that man these
45:54jeans are so tight because I just washed
45:56them even though they've not been washed
45:58in weeks. Right. Yes. I I agree. It's a
46:00cop I believe it comes back to a
46:02copyrightiting uh principle. I would
46:04describe that as a call out, right? It's
46:06it's typically a mechanism to drive
46:07curiosity in the people that you want to
46:09reach and typically it's it's accessing
46:11pain or consequences of pain.
46:13>> And so why are they effective? Why do
46:16they work so well even to this day?
46:18Because this has been a thing since like
46:20the dawn of advertising
46:22>> to put it in very plain language. you
46:24immediately access like you immediately
46:27access the person you are trying to
46:29reach by calling them out very
46:30specifically and if you do it in the
46:33right way you actually reach them versus
46:35if you do it in the wrong way you
46:37typically sound like an ad where it
46:38sounds like a like a an infomercial of
46:42like are you bored and at home and want
46:44to go like whatever it is let's use a
46:47really wide example here for a second
46:49let's use tide pens like an ad on TV
46:52with a tide pen
46:54showing a kid running in from the front
46:58yard with a green stain on their white
47:00shirt. Like, is that even a call out?
47:04>> Yeah, I think a call out could be
47:06visual.
47:06>> Okay.
47:07>> Um, it just has to be very obvious and
47:09very plain. In the context of like
47:11organic YouTube content, a lot of times
47:13I would say it's verbal, especially in
47:15personal branding, but I think it could
47:17be visual.
47:18>> We know they're important. We know what
47:19they are. How are people misusing them?
47:23Because I think you get a lot of
47:26examples. You you know, you have a lot
47:28of examples of when it's done correctly,
47:30but I'd be curious to hear how have you
47:33been seeing people do this incorrectly.
47:35Let's give let's go through a specific
47:37example. Do you want to use, you know,
47:39maybe uh busy executives wanting to get
47:41in shape?
47:42>> Yeah. Oh, uh we have a Rson Slack member
47:45that submitted a a clip recently. Um,
47:48and their call out specifically was, um,
47:52>> and to be very clear, Andrew is a
47:53gangster. We love Andrew. He's got the
47:55coolest accent in the world.
47:57>> Scottish, right? What a badass Scottish
47:59accent.
47:59>> Yes, I believe it is.
48:00>> Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I'm actually
48:02just going to pull the clip up right
48:03here.
48:03>> If you're 45 to 65 and obese, I don't
48:06know what to tell you, but you just
48:07don't need a complex plan to lose that
48:10first 30 lbs.
48:11>> Yeah. It's typically just a question
48:13base. It's It's typically like, are you
48:16blank? are you this specific? What
48:18they're doing is they're wrapping in
48:20that demographic uh into their hook and
48:23just you forming formulating it as a
48:25question which is are you blank? And and
48:28it works, right? It works. It's a it's a
48:30call out. It does uh speak occasionally
48:34uh to some things, but I believe if you
48:38do that, it's just not an interesting
48:40way to drive curiosity actually is
48:42probably the the most basic way that I
48:44can put it is I am not inherently
48:47interested in that if I hear that as a
48:49hook. See, I think it's a lack of
48:51novelty because so many people have done
48:53it now. I think it worked at the very
48:55beginning of social media. People were
48:56like scrolling, they're like, "Oh my
48:58god, I am between 35 and 45." and trying
49:01to lose stubborn belly fat.
49:03>> I think it's actually missing more than
49:04components of just novelty. Zooming out
49:07for a second here, I believe that there
49:09are four things that need to be present
49:11in order to invoke curiosity in someone,
49:13but a lot of people tell you to create
49:15curiosity in content. Um, and and I love
49:18that advice. It's great. It's also, in
49:20my opinion, a little bit [ __ ] And
49:23the the reason why I don't think that's
49:24good advice is because it just blanket
49:26like they're just blanket telling you to
49:28like just create it like it's something
49:30out of thin air. You can't do curiosity.
49:32You can't say curiosity. You can only
49:35control inputs and then curiosity
49:37potentially happens to the right person.
49:39And so I believe there are four
49:41components that drive curiosity or that
49:44need to be present in order to invoke a
49:46curiosity response in somebody because
49:48it is an emotional response. The first
49:49one being a knowledge gap. A lot of
49:51people talk about this. There's studies
49:53done on this curiosity knowledge gaps
49:55create a gap between uh what somebody
49:59currently knows and what they could know
50:00or something like that right and I would
50:02argue that those hooks are you 45 to 65
50:06and trying to lose belly fat I don't
50:09know it's not a very obvious knowledge
50:11gap is what it is
50:12>> there you might just answer it yes
50:15>> there is no there is no gap point
50:17>> it's not an obvious and it might be
50:19implied and there might be like maybe
50:20the next line has the knowledge gap but
50:22you didn't capture it in the f in the
50:24beginning. So I I would believe that the
50:27next thing that I believe needs to be
50:28present in order for somebody to
50:30potentially be curious is is a belief
50:34that that knowledge gap will be filled.
50:36And this is one that a lot of people
50:37miss. This is in the credibility which
50:39is like if somebody watches a clip but
50:42they believe that they're going to be
50:43faked out or they don't believe that you
50:45can actually tell them what this is like
50:47what is this millionaire going to like
50:49in shades going to tell me about my
50:51relationship right if there's not a
50:53belief that the knowledge gap will be
50:55filled by this thing they're probably
50:57going to lose curiosity right the next
51:00thing that I believe needs to be present
51:03is novelty like you just like you were
51:05talking about which is if are you 45 to
51:0865. That is not novel. That is not
51:10different than baseline. How I describe
51:11novelty is something that is different
51:13than baseline. If you walk down, if you
51:16go to work every day and you walk down
51:17the same hallway or you drive down the
51:20same road and it's always the same, it
51:23looks the in town, but one day there's a
51:26new shop to your right that is different
51:28than baseline and you immediately your
51:30attention is drawn to that. And so
51:33that's what I believe novelty is
51:34fundamentally is like it is just
51:36different than what you typically see or
51:37different than baseline. And and I would
51:39argue that hook does not do that. Uh so
51:41we're verbally processing our way to why
51:43these these these don't work. And then
51:45the last one is relevance. I do believe
51:48that probably hits relevance. Relevance.
51:50It's the thing that determines whether
51:52whether somebody a specific person is
51:55curious and another person is not. If I
51:57have a clip and I am laughing about this
52:00or I'm super curious about this clip and
52:01I show my girlfriend who is not
52:03interested in the nerdy things sometimes
52:05that I am of like Elder Scrolls and I
52:07show her a clip about Elder Scrolls,
52:09she's going to roll her eyes at me
52:11because she how is she she's not curious
52:14but I am curious which means that there
52:16is an element there that needs to be
52:18pulled that is not pulled for her. So
52:20you can only control inputs of that. I
52:22would argue the only thing that a hook
52:24like that actually covers or actually
52:27hits is relevance. I wasn't actually
52:29planning on bringing curiosity into
52:30that, but that is the reason. That is
52:32the reason why those hooks don't work.
52:33It it doesn't actually invoke a
52:35curiosity response in the person that
52:36you want it to.
52:37>> And if you're at this point in the
52:39podcast, it's our hope that we've
52:42delivered a lot of value. We've been
52:44giving, giving, giving, giving. And so
52:45if you're at this point, you're in deep.
52:48And so what we just described of how
52:50we're trying to arm you with the the
52:52tools, the mechanisms, the principles,
52:53the tactics to help you develop your own
52:55playbook and uh game plan for building
52:58your personal brand. One that leads to
52:59the outcomes you want, not just gets
53:01random views from random people and
53:04brings random people into your life.
53:06Well, we did a little bit of what we do
53:08in Rson Select in this whole entire
53:11podcast. Our whole thing with Rston
53:13Select is designed around arming you
53:15with those tools to be able to build
53:17your system. It's not a carbon copy
53:20system. And so what I will say is it
53:23does require work. It's not like you're
53:24just literally carbon copy. You need to
53:26learn these principles, these tactics,
53:28and how you apply them to your personal
53:30brand. But that's what we do in Rston
53:32Select. If you're at this point, I think
53:33maybe trust is on the higher end with
53:36us. And so if you trust that we can help
53:40you go further than just what we can do
53:42in the free content, and I'm talking
53:44like literally Trevor doing what he did
53:45on that short form clip with your
53:47content, breaking it down and giving you
53:49direct feedback and generalizing to
53:51everybody else on the call. That's what
53:52we do in Rston Select. If you want more
53:54information, you can go to caleb
53:55rston.com/
53:58select and you can join the wait list.
54:01We only open enrollment I think like one
54:04week every quarter and so there is your
54:07urgency there. You can join the wait
54:09list and when it opens you can join the
54:11group and potentially get your content
54:13graded by Mr. Trevor Odum.
54:15>> There's also other fun things you know
54:17Caleb
54:18>> I also do a Q&A in there. It's honestly
54:21the best thing I think that we have
54:22built uh yet. And we've put out some
54:25really gangster [ __ ] that I think a lot
54:26of people have gotten value out of on
54:27YouTube, but there's nothing quite like
54:29what we have done in Rollston Select.
54:31You can play this clip over and over.
54:34Let's come up with a better hook.
54:36>> How would you create curiosity with this
54:40specific clip?
54:41>> The first thing that I want to do is
54:43make the knowledge gap more obvious. So,
54:45breaking down the components, right? uh
54:47knowledge gap, belief of the knowledge
54:49gap can be filled, uh novelty and
54:52relevance. We already hit relevance on
54:54this. And so what are the how can we
54:56include the other three elements within
54:58this to make this a a good hook. The
55:01first thing that I want to attack is the
55:02knowledge gap itself, which is I want to
55:04make that a lot more obvious. And so I
55:06would probably for a clip like this, um,
55:09I would probably create an actual like
55:12verbal like if you're here and want to
55:14be here, if you look like this and you
55:17want to like and I would probably even
55:19visually pop up an image of a
55:21middle-aged man. So that to your point,
55:23visually I'm I'm calling out like a
55:25middle-aged person rather than like a
55:28young person.
55:29>> Does this need to be somebody that he's
55:31worked with? Would that maybe help with
55:34people's believability that he can close
55:35the gap? Like if he were to say, "Do you
55:37want to look like this? Go from this to
55:39this." And then maybe he ended his hook
55:41by saying, "I actually took this person
55:43from here to here."
55:44>> Yeah. Yeah. That's a way that you can
55:46add that.
55:46>> Okay.
55:47>> There's a lot of ways that you can
55:49incorporate these elements. That's what
55:50I'm trying to reach here is like the way
55:52I would immediately attack it is like I
55:54want to include a knowledge gap first
55:55and then like tackle the other
55:57components. Belief needs to be in there
55:59somewhere. I think belief doesn't
56:01necessarily need to uh belief can also
56:05be inherent which is like if I hear that
56:07hook if you're here if you look like
56:09this and you want to look like this by
56:11by summer 2026 you know or by you know
56:14or have a a Euro summer body like this I
56:18don't know just a fun way to kind of
56:19kind of play with the language there
56:21there is a belief in that know like that
56:23knowledge gap itself when I'm pointing
56:25those things out of like there's a
56:26belief that this is going somewhere and
56:28then you can hit that credibility
56:29statement
56:30of like,
56:31>> well, this is one of my clients and
56:32here's exactly how I did it. Or, uh, I
56:35worked with Dave here and this is
56:36exactly how he did it in 3 weeks, so he
56:38was ready for his summer vacation, you
56:40know, like something like that. That's
56:42probably not the exact language that I
56:43would do. I would probably immediately
56:45take it from like, if you want to go
56:46from here to here, I do that visually so
56:48that there's an element of novelty in
56:50there of like this is different than
56:52what you typically see. I'm not just
56:53talking about this thing. I'm like, if
56:54you want to go from this to this, uh,
56:56I'd include a time element in there. uh
56:59because I just think that inherently
57:00makes something more interesting and
57:02typically appeals to it appeals to a
57:05desire.
57:06>> Yeah.
57:06>> When you're calling somebody out or
57:08calling a specific person out in your
57:10content, often times the thing is not
57:12enough. It's the how they get the thing
57:14that needs to be the mechanism, right?
57:17If do you want to lose weight? Sure, I
57:20get like yeah, I want to lose weight.
57:22Everybody wants to lose weight. Like
57:23everybody in their 30s or 40s are like,
57:25"Yeah, I could lose a few pounds." But
57:27there's a reason they haven't done it.
57:29So, can you appeal to the reason why
57:30they haven't done it? Uh, I would argue
57:33it's effort or it's time or it's like,
57:35you know what? So, you need to
57:36incorporate an element of that to that
57:39makes it people a lot of people call
57:42like these like super hooks. These like
57:44strategists talk about like super hooks
57:45that I would argue would make it a a
57:48mega hook in my opinion. It would be
57:49like can you appeal to the desire
57:51underneath? The reason why they haven't
57:53done it for especially for this type of
57:55niche. Um, so I'd incorporate a time
57:57element or effortlessly or like if it's
58:00February or or March or April and you're
58:02like and you want to hit this body by
58:04summer, right? So I'd include some sort
58:05of element in there to why they haven't
58:07done it. That visual element I would yes
58:09I would have it as a client of theirs so
58:11that you can hit that second line. Um,
58:14and it's just easier to like if this is
58:15a middle-aged man if for cuz he calls
58:18out 45 to 65 in here. Having that that
58:21image often times means that you might
58:23not need to say it. you might not need
58:24to inherently call that out potentially.
58:27That's probably I believe that hits
58:29novelty uh that hits a knowledge gap
58:32that hits belief of the knowledge gap um
58:34and that hits relevance all of them and
58:37which I would say we improve that hook.
58:39Let's write it out. And real quick while
58:41you're doing this, Andrew, you are an
58:43absolute champ. We appreciate you being
58:45down with us uh utilizing your clip as
58:50an example. We also hope that you make
58:54this as a hook for one of your videos
58:58because we believe it will do well.
58:59>> If you want to go from looking like this
59:01to looking like this with less than two
59:03hours of effort every week, I got you.
59:06>> That'd be a hook. Like just like that.
59:09>> That is how I would probably improve
59:10that hook. And I would argue that hits
59:12all four elements or four components of
59:15curiosity.
59:16>> We just talked about short form there.
59:18That was a short form clip. Obviously,
59:20that applies to long form as well. But
59:22let's move to the debate between short
59:24form versus long form because if I'm a
59:25solo creator and I'm starting out or I
59:29have gotten to a sticking point and I
59:32feel like basically I'm kind of just
59:33starting over, starting from scratch,
59:35uh, after watching this, I'm going to
59:36make a lot of different changes to my
59:39personal brand strategy.
59:41Where should I start? Short form or long
59:43form? Let's first actually before we
59:45answer that question, what is the value
59:47of short form? And what is the value of
59:49long form in your eyes?
59:52>> The value is honestly based on what you
59:54want to have happen more than anything.
59:57Um, I think you can accomplish similar
1:00:00things with both. I think that in
1:00:03general, the way people typically think
1:00:06about it is short form you get facial
1:00:09recognition, right? You get um more
1:00:11eyeballs faster potentially. And then
1:00:13long form you can go deeper. It's like
1:00:15you can uh instead of chatting online,
1:00:18right, you can go you can invite them
1:00:19into your house is kind of the analogy
1:00:21that I would put it with your long form.
1:00:23And yes, I would I would agree with
1:00:24that. But at the highest level,
1:00:27attacking the question of where do you
1:00:29want to start? I believe you need to
1:00:30answer two questions or a couple
1:00:32questions before that, which is a what
1:00:36do what medium do you perform best at?
1:00:38Right.
1:00:39>> Yeah.
1:00:39>> What do you uh what are you good at? Are
1:00:41you verbose? Are you very like are you
1:00:44long-winded in your answers and stuff
1:00:46like that? I would argue that you might
1:00:48want to uh stick with a podcast format
1:00:50or a long form type of format there. Um
1:00:53so like you need to you need to reverse
1:00:55engineer you as the person and then the
1:00:58second thing is just what do you want to
1:00:59have happen? And I believe that that
1:01:02then you could answer short form or long
1:01:04form and the answer becomes pretty
1:01:05obvious.
1:01:06>> Is there a bigger barrier to entry
1:01:08though for short form versus long form?
1:01:10like if I'm just starting off, uh is is
1:01:13there a little bit of the answer is
1:01:16based on like what is easiest?
1:01:19>> I think as a rule of thumb, it has been
1:01:23easier in the past to establish
1:01:26traction. this thing traction that we've
1:01:28been talking about uh with short form
1:01:31content.
1:01:32I would generally agree with that for
1:01:35the mass majority of people is it's been
1:01:38easier to gain traction, eyeballs,
1:01:40attention with the people that you want
1:01:42to reach in general in short form
1:01:44content rather than long form content
1:01:46and it does gear you up to like to then
1:01:49make um make that long form. But like we
1:01:53started with long form so there are also
1:01:55other cases.
1:01:56>> It's not really a rule but more just
1:01:58like an observation you had.
1:01:59>> Yeah. It's an observation that I've had
1:02:01and I would argue uh actually funny
1:02:04enough this is actually like just a a a
1:02:06deep thing that we we've actually been
1:02:07recently talking about in the car I
1:02:09think when we were on a shoot here is
1:02:10like I actually think in the past 6 to
1:02:1212 months YouTube has been like a a wide
1:02:15maybe two years maybe one to two years
1:02:17like YouTube has been a very wide open
1:02:19like the people who have in like very
1:02:22deep expertise and actually know what
1:02:24they're talking about I actually argue
1:02:27in the last 18 months there's been a
1:02:29bigger window on long form for the
1:02:31experts than in short form because of
1:02:34such a crowded marketplace in short form
1:02:36and so much noise there. I would say
1:02:38that gap is closing
1:02:41>> and has like has been closing for 6 to
1:02:4312 months as in like a lot of people are
1:02:46jumping over. It's there was this like
1:02:47metricool analysis that was like I
1:02:49believe YouTube was the only platform
1:02:52that was up maybe Facebook might have
1:02:55been too um but it was like the only
1:02:57platform that was up in overall
1:02:59impressions and I like so the only one
1:03:02Instagram was down uh Tik Tok was down
1:03:05because it was it's it's become so
1:03:07crowded and so there's been this weird
1:03:09thing but I believe that window is
1:03:10closing but I would say yes in general
1:03:12as an observation short form has a lower
1:03:16barrier to entry than long form content,
1:03:19but it's not a necessarily like inherent
1:03:21rule.
1:03:22>> Would you say that's why you see so many
1:03:24creators that have like I mean cuz we
1:03:27see it all the time. People that have
1:03:29hundreds of thousands, millions of
1:03:31followers on Instagram or Tik Tok,
1:03:34>> yet have and there's nothing I'm not
1:03:36like making a value claim on this, but
1:03:38they have less than 10,000 on YouTube
1:03:42>> and they're not gaining much traction
1:03:44there. I've seen millions. Yeah, I've
1:03:46seen I saw an account the other day that
1:03:48had like three or four million followers
1:03:50um and had 26,000 subscribers on
1:03:54YouTube. Um so it happens and it's
1:03:57definitely like that was the format that
1:03:58worked well for them that they are that
1:04:00they can execute very like super well.
1:04:03They can reach their ideal customer and
1:04:04that's where like things are happening.
1:04:07they're trying to expand over to long
1:04:09form and they are experiencing obvious
1:04:11it looks like they're experiencing like
1:04:12the gap between what is short form and
1:04:14long form content. Um but they're
1:04:16cracking it and it happens over time. So
1:04:19my advice typically is whichever one uh
1:04:23once you answer those questions and you
1:04:25determine whichever one that you start
1:04:27on, I always like to we always talk
1:04:30about a secondary platform or a
1:04:31secondary like when you are trying to
1:04:34cut in or trying to expand into if you
1:04:38start with long form and go into short
1:04:39form or if you start with short form and
1:04:41go into long form the most basic advice
1:04:43that I have for people is just take your
1:04:44top performers that you've had and just
1:04:46expand on them deeply. with your content
1:04:49>> or like chunk them down to like a
1:04:51>> or yes. Chunk them down if it's going
1:04:54from long form to short form or Yes.
1:04:55>> And we've had success with that after
1:04:57filming like a you know 7h hour course
1:04:59or whatever a 12-h hour film day we film
1:05:02like a 5 minute to 10 minute
1:05:04>> like recap.
1:05:04>> Yeah. Recap and they've actually done
1:05:06really well for us on Instagram. Like as
1:05:07a little side note
1:05:08>> that's for everyone like watching that's
1:05:10the most basic way. You've talked about
1:05:12this in the past and I would love for
1:05:13you to touch on this of like if you are
1:05:16only on one platform even if you're like
1:05:18you could be on multiple different
1:05:20shorts platforms if you're on one short
1:05:21platform only like you have a lot you're
1:05:23sitting on a lot of risk remember when
1:05:25Tik Tok was about to be banned and all
1:05:27these like UGC creators and everyone was
1:05:29like oh [ __ ] I'm about to lose all my
1:05:31income uh that could have been prevented
1:05:33had we thought about that and maybe you
1:05:35don't have necessarily like the
1:05:36bandwidth or anything but once you do
1:05:38starting to expand that over I think
1:05:40that there is a ton value in being a
1:05:42multi-dimensional or multi- uh
1:05:45multimedium creator.
1:05:46>> Um, and I believe that should be your
1:05:49goal over time uh with regardless of
1:05:52whichever one that you start on. It's
1:05:54funny, very early on in my career, I was
1:05:57friends with a uh a Tik Tocker um who
1:06:01did it was like a he he cleaned crime
1:06:03scenes.
1:06:04>> Wild.
1:06:05>> Yeah. It was like and he made really
1:06:07cool content. And the first thing that
1:06:09we had a call and I was like, I love
1:06:11what you're doing and like I know that
1:06:12you're just he's having fun. Like it's
1:06:14not even like a business thing yet, but
1:06:16like he's just having fun. And the first
1:06:17thing that I told him was like, I would
1:06:19keep making on TikTok. Tomorrow I want
1:06:22you to make a like a YouTube video. And
1:06:24I I believe he got over like a million
1:06:25subscribers on YouTube um and like
1:06:27completely blew up. And his account on
1:06:29Tik Tok, as a lot of Tik Tok accounts
1:06:32have done in the last 5 years, is is
1:06:34pretty much dead. but he has that core
1:06:36audience on YouTube or like for us we've
1:06:39established a newsletter an email
1:06:41audience of over like 70,000 people that
1:06:43we can completely control. I saw this
1:06:45thing the other day that was like email
1:06:46is the only platform that you control
1:06:49like you know and your audience on which
1:06:52I don't know if that's true or not but
1:06:54that's an an interesting thing and so
1:06:56expanding that is that like once you
1:06:58establish have a have a have clear
1:07:00systems have clear uh things that you
1:07:04have done on one medium expanding that
1:07:06is a a core thing that you need to be
1:07:10thinking of within 6 to 12 months. love.
1:07:13I completely agree. Let's talk through
1:07:15prioritizing it because there's a couple
1:07:17of things that I think we can speak to
1:07:19that is useful for the audience on
1:07:22figuring out do I prioritize short form
1:07:24in the beginning or long form. And one
1:07:26thing that I'll speak to which I did not
1:07:29have this lens before I started making
1:07:31my own content
1:07:34which is I actually think that if you
1:07:37are a wildly deep expert who has been
1:07:41doing the thing that you do for a very
1:07:43long time, you are actually going to
1:07:46find short form more difficult.
1:07:49>> And I agree that for the masses, short
1:07:52form has a lower barrier to entry. We
1:07:55know this to be true. You just whip your
1:07:57phone out, record a quick clip, and post
1:07:59on Instagram. I found for me it was very
1:08:02difficult to get the nuance of the
1:08:04information I wanted to share across in
1:08:06a short form clip. And so I have found
1:08:09for myself and a lot of the clients that
1:08:11we work one-on-one with, they don't love
1:08:15sessions where they're filming shorts
1:08:18because they find it very difficult to
1:08:20communicate a valuable a truly useful
1:08:23valuable nugget in such a short amount
1:08:25of time. Now, it's not that it's
1:08:26impossible. It's that
1:08:29we have not trained ourselves or a lot
1:08:32of people have not trained themselves to
1:08:33be able to do that. And so, actually, I
1:08:35found YouTube to be a lot easier to make
1:08:37content that I was proud of because I
1:08:39was able to cover all the little caveats
1:08:42and nuances that I add to the points
1:08:44that I share. If you're a really really
1:08:47deep expert that's been doing the damn
1:08:48thing for like 5 10 15 plus years, I
1:08:52think you may actually
1:08:55find it to be easier to start with long-
1:08:59form content and learn how to structure
1:09:02that appropriately to get people to
1:09:04continue watching. In the beginning,
1:09:05you're just going to be like, you know,
1:09:06word vomiting and brain dumping and
1:09:08stuff, but over time, you can start to
1:09:10refine that structure.
1:09:12And I find that is a lot easier. If you
1:09:15are more of a student, you're not the
1:09:17expert, then I think that short form is
1:09:20a much easier way for you to start
1:09:21because you get to take people on the
1:09:23journey and it can be like a series that
1:09:24you do day one of learning how to vibe
1:09:27code with Claude or whatever, right? And
1:09:30that becomes a very interesting thing.
1:09:33And because you're a student and maybe
1:09:35don't have as much to speak about, it
1:09:37might be a little harder to actually
1:09:39maintain any sort of depth in a long
1:09:42form video.
1:09:43>> And so maybe that's a good frame right
1:09:46there. There's a lot of nuance that we
1:09:47could go into, but I think that's one of
1:09:50the first layers that you look at is
1:09:51like, you know, do you got the gift of
1:09:54gab like I do? Maybe short form isn't
1:09:57the way to start, you know, and maybe
1:09:59what you do is you accept the fact
1:10:02because to your point, I don't want
1:10:03people to be on just one platform. Even
1:10:04if you're a solo creator, you need a
1:10:06primary and a secondary. And so if you
1:10:08are that solo creator that has the
1:10:10primary as long form YouTube content,
1:10:13cool. You accept the fact that your
1:10:15short form is not going to potentially
1:10:17do as well because all you're doing is
1:10:18just repurposing and mining from your
1:10:21long form.
1:10:22>> Yeah. Yeah, to your point of like I mean
1:10:23it all comes back to like knowing what
1:10:25you are comfortable with and what you
1:10:27like yes that I think the other thing
1:10:29there is especially for our core
1:10:32audience of like entrepreneurs and and
1:10:34and people like that um they expect a
1:10:37certain amount of ROI for like leverage
1:10:40uh getting a lot out for what you put in
1:10:43and I would argue again long form
1:10:45content for those types of people is
1:10:47going to be a way that you can put um
1:10:50you do. This is where you like you do
1:10:53have to put more effort into a long form
1:10:55piece usually than a short form piece in
1:10:58general. Again, I've seen people spend
1:11:00days writing shorts and they blow up and
1:11:02and that's a thing that they do. But you
1:11:04in general, as a rule, basic, you know,
1:11:07my basic observation is yes, you've put
1:11:09more effort into this, but you get a lot
1:11:11more out because then you can repurpose
1:11:12that. I know a lot of people are going
1:11:14to comment like repurposing is dead or
1:11:17it's not useful. Yes, but for somebody
1:11:19who is who is maximizing their time, for
1:11:22somebody who what they want to have
1:11:24happen is leverage, is getting a lot out
1:11:26for what they put in,
1:11:27>> aka every solo creator.
1:11:29>> Yeah. [laughter] Every solo creator,
1:11:30every entrepreneur, right? Um, every
1:11:33business owner, well, they do want to,
1:11:35it was actually a question from a select
1:11:37member who was like, why is it that I
1:11:40see all these big entrepreneur like
1:11:42characters
1:11:44doing repurposed, loweffort, repurposed
1:11:46content versus they're filming with
1:11:50their iPhone and they're like setting it
1:11:51up and doing it all themselves. And I
1:11:52was like, well, what what do we think
1:11:54that we're they're maximizing for?
1:11:56Right. Their strategy is built around
1:11:57their time constraint.
1:11:59>> Yes. And so those those constraints also
1:12:01have to be factored into the platform or
1:12:03the thing that you're choosing.
1:12:05>> Big point to all the content strategists
1:12:07that like to pick apart the big dogs and
1:12:09what they're doing, but they don't
1:12:10realize that their whole strategy is
1:12:12built around the fact that some of these
1:12:13characters have less than 4 hours like a
1:12:17week or really more like less than two
1:12:19hours a week that they can dedicate to
1:12:21content. And so yes, that is also an
1:12:23incredibly important point here is
1:12:25knowing your schedule
1:12:27>> and [clears throat] knowing what time
1:12:28you can actually consistently not for
1:12:31one week, two weeks, 3 weeks, 3 months
1:12:33definitely,
1:12:33>> but yes, consistently
1:12:36>> uh and there can be es and flows, you
1:12:37can dial back, you can increase, but
1:12:39what can you consistently do?
1:12:42>> Cuz that's the most important part here.
1:12:44Now, one interesting thing that I will
1:12:47throw out here that counters what I just
1:12:50said is also people who are deep experts
1:12:53on what they do. They're the expert.
1:12:56They also typically have a bias towards
1:12:58data. And if you're doing long form
1:13:00content,
1:13:01>> not always, but if you do long form
1:13:03content, sometimes if you're like me and
1:13:06you only do one a month, you get less of
1:13:10a or it's a longer feedback loop versus
1:13:12if you do shorts, loweffort shorts,
1:13:16could you post five a week and get more
1:13:18data on what topics, what hooks, what
1:13:22pain points that you speak to are
1:13:24resonating with your audience faster,
1:13:26right? And so you start understanding
1:13:28what your audience is [ __ ] with and
1:13:29you can double down on that quicker than
1:13:31let's say if you were doing a YouTube
1:13:33video every two weeks or once a month.
1:13:35>> Yeah. Because because counter to the
1:13:37point that we were making with like a a
1:13:38long form yes does have more leverage.
1:13:41The other thing that especially for solo
1:13:43creators they have the advantage of to
1:13:45your point is a strategy that I
1:13:47recommend to a lot of people is cool
1:13:50start on Instagram if that's what you're
1:13:51hot on. that's what fits you, that's
1:13:53what fits your med like that that medium
1:13:55fits you. Get a lot of data very
1:13:58quickly. Use that as a testing ground to
1:14:00then like I was talking about when
1:14:02you're expanding to a the other medium,
1:14:05which in this case is long form, then
1:14:07you can just take your top performers
1:14:08and make go deeper on those top
1:14:10performers in that case. And so there is
1:14:13a point to be said where like it really
1:14:16just comes down to your bandwidth, who
1:14:18you are, how you roll, your bandwidth,
1:14:21your constraints, and forming forming a
1:14:24strategy around those things, right, are
1:14:27the biggest things that you need to
1:14:28think about when starting out.
1:14:30>> So Trevor, are you basically saying that
1:14:32there is no one-sizefits-all playbook
1:14:33that everybody carbon copies?
1:14:35>> Unfortunately, no. And so really what
1:14:38this is about is we're trying to arm you
1:14:40with the tools and information
1:14:43to be able to determine your own
1:14:46strategy because the majority of people
1:14:48in our space have one playbook that they
1:14:51recommend everybody runs. And I love the
1:14:55simplicity in that.
1:14:57>> I love the intention behind it. The
1:15:00problem is that is not how humans work.
1:15:04It's like uh you know personal trainers
1:15:06at the highest level know that like
1:15:08there is no one diet or one workout
1:15:11program for everybody because we're all
1:15:13different humans and have different
1:15:14variables. And so the best personal
1:15:16trainers, the best nutritionists
1:15:18understand the context of the
1:15:20individual, right? Like I remember this
1:15:22is again another Gary example, but you
1:15:25know I worked for a man who had a
1:15:26personal trainer travel with him 24/7.
1:15:28Like we'd be like filming a meeting that
1:15:30he's having and all of a sudden Mike or
1:15:32Jordan walks in with a protein shake is
1:15:34like, "All right, drink this G." Right?
1:15:36And was that necessarily the program
1:15:39they designed the most optimized? No. It
1:15:43was the most optimized for a man who
1:15:46literally would never have a break from
1:15:48the moment he started working to the
1:15:49moment he ended. The only breaks were to
1:15:51take a piss. Like that's it, right? And
1:15:53so you have to come up with a completely
1:15:56different strategy. Using that example,
1:15:58if an entrepreneur is willing to
1:15:59dedicate because there's some online
1:16:01right now that are crushing it and
1:16:02they're dedicating 25 to 40 hours a week
1:16:04to their content and then you have other
1:16:06characters like Gary who's still posting
1:16:08a,000 posts a day right now. He's
1:16:11probably dedicating what? Less than 20
1:16:13minutes a day. I don't know what it
1:16:15currently is, but I know that's what it
1:16:16was when I was on the team. It was like
1:16:18less than 5 minutes a day was dedicated
1:16:19towards content. If I could get him to
1:16:21summarize a daily V at the end of the
1:16:23day in 60 seconds, that was like game
1:16:25changer, right? what I'm giving is kind
1:16:27of the wide end of the spectrum. We've
1:16:30worked with people who dedicate, you
1:16:32know, almost like the majority of their
1:16:34week to making content. I've also worked
1:16:37with people or worked for people that
1:16:39dedicate less than 5 minutes a week. And
1:16:41so what we're giving is we understand
1:16:44there is a wider spectrum here. And what
1:16:47we're trying to arm people with is some
1:16:50of the tools and tactics and principles
1:16:53they can use to help develop their own
1:16:55strategy, their own playbook.
1:16:57>> Yeah. I think to like tie this up in a
1:16:59in a neat little bow, knowing what not
1:17:01to do is a lot of times more useful,
1:17:03especially for beginners, than knowing
1:17:05what to do. It's why you see a lot of
1:17:07people going like avoid this and do
1:17:08don't do this, right? It works. The
1:17:10thing not to do here is look at creators
1:17:13that are established
1:17:15and both in like the mediums that
1:17:18they're choosing and their overall
1:17:19content strategy and being like, how can
1:17:22I do that or why are they like picking
1:17:24that apart? Cuz like to your point, why
1:17:27does Gary not do direct to camera
1:17:30YouTube videos? There's a very specific
1:17:33reason for that and it's in like how he
1:17:35rolls, right? That's and then the
1:17:36strategy is then built around that and
1:17:38then the medium that they chose in the
1:17:40beginning is built around those things.
1:17:41So the thing not to do is look at where
1:17:45somebody is a creator that you like to
1:17:47follow and then ask how can you emulate
1:17:49that strategy. It's [snorts] to you need
1:17:52to hold up a mirror to yourself and be
1:17:55like what is going to be useful for me
1:17:56and then knowing that you can expand
1:17:59over time all these creators that you
1:18:00follow a lot of them like didn't Gary
1:18:03start on Twitter? Yeah.
1:18:05>> Gary didn't start on YouTube. Gary
1:18:06didn't like
1:18:07>> Twitter and YouTube. Yeah. Back in the
1:18:08day. But on YouTube,
1:18:11it was a different video platform before
1:18:12YouTube, right?
1:18:13>> He did YouTube and then he made that
1:18:14that funny uh Vidler uh little escapade
1:18:18for a couple years.
1:18:19>> But but like these creators that you
1:18:21follow when they're established on a
1:18:23platform, a lot of times they started on
1:18:24a completely different one and you
1:18:26wouldn't even know that cuz you hopped
1:18:27on the bandwagon later on. But like you
1:18:29can expand up similar to the pawns that
1:18:32we were talking about with your TAM,
1:18:34right? With your total address
1:18:35addressable market, with the people that
1:18:37you're trying to reach. You can also
1:18:39chunk up. You can also platform up,
1:18:41medium up over time. Uh you just need to
1:18:44pick the thing that's right for you in
1:18:45the beginning. But the real real here,
1:18:47we've talked a lot about different
1:18:49principles and tactics that people can
1:18:50use. But the most important thing when
1:18:53starting out, especially as a solo
1:18:54creator, when you're in the beginning,
1:18:56is to not overthink and to have a bias
1:18:59towards action. It's not debating, it's
1:19:03doing. Okay? You're going to get far
1:19:04more value and you're going to get a lot
1:19:06more learnings and traction off of doing
1:19:09versus debating. So if there is two
1:19:11routes that we gave you in this podcast
1:19:14that you are debating over right now, I
1:19:16want you to stop debating, make a
1:19:18decision, go down that path, and then
1:19:20you can pivot. Doing and pivoting is far
1:19:23faster and far better for your personal
1:19:26brand than spending that same amount of
1:19:28time just debating and not having actual
1:19:30data to make your decisions off of. Now,
1:19:32if you've gotten to this point, uh you
1:19:34are probably very serious about building
1:19:36your personal brand. And so [snorts]
1:19:38what might be really cool is to actually
1:19:40watch an episode between Trevor and I
1:19:42where we go through what we focused on
1:19:44month by month in the first 12 months of
1:19:47building my personal brand to over
1:19:49250,000 followers uh by just posting
1:19:52once a month on YouTube. It was [ __ ]
1:19:53crazy. You can click here to watch

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