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23 Years For a Murder He Didn't Commit with Derrick Hamilton Ep 075 — Transcript

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0:39now if you're just listening to the
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2:11reach out to one of their experts today
2:13or reach out to me tell them two cops
2:15one donut sent you
2:17coming up next not two cops one donut I
2:20was wrong
2:21if we can murder
2:22I served over two decades
2:24prisons
2:26uh in 2015 I was exonerated by the Kings
2:29County District Attorney's office at the
2:32Olympian investigation they found that
2:34the evidence that sent me to prison was
2:35unreliable uh and the exaggerated me but
2:38I spent over two decades in prison for
2:40Crime I did not commitment
2:43gotcha so on top of that
2:46um it isn't just the fact that you were
2:48exonerated for a crime you didn't commit
2:50that there maybe was some corruption
2:53along the way uh on the police side well
2:56the detective that convicted me has been
2:58over 20 convictions uh between
3:00exonerations has to say uh and people he
3:03got wrongfully convicted uh he worked
3:05over 200 homicide cases all of them on
3:08Investigation
3:09um and so far 20 people has been
3:11exonerated we're working on a few more
3:13ourselves so he was a a road cop in a
3:16big city
3:17um and just you know got carried away
3:19and just start locking up a lot of
3:21people on faulty evidence unreliable
3:23evidence he was just about closing cases
3:27um didn't care whether he was the right
3:28person or not
3:28[Music]
3:44all right welcome back to Cops one donut
3:46I am your host Eric Levine and today I
3:49got with me uh a guest I can't believe I
3:52even was able to get you sir Mr Derek
3:55Hamilton how you doing brother all right
3:57yourself man thanks for having me hey
3:59I'm just glad that you took the time
4:00dude you've been on Joe Rogan so like I
4:03was like you know what I just listened
4:05to this whole thing this guy's story
4:06moved me I'm just gonna reach out if it
4:09works it works if not
4:10[ __ ] it you know I tried all right but
4:14you did you reached back um I tried to
4:16be as like hey dude I'm a cop your story
4:19like I'm trying to like let you know
4:21like right up front like other cops need
4:24to hear your story so one we can avoid
4:26the mistakes that happen to you too you
4:29can kind of tell us like some of the
4:30stuff you saw come down the line and all
4:33that but before we get into that
4:35um listen anybody listen to the podcast
4:37Derek's told his story a million times
4:40already
4:41um and I don't want to waste everybody
4:43else's time with him repeating this long
4:47beautiful story you know for the ending
4:50I'm glad the ending came out the way it
4:51did but Derek just give us a quick
4:53synopsis of basically what happened to
4:55you
4:56I was wrongfully convicted for murder I
4:59served over two decades in New York
5:01prisons uh in 2015 I was exonerated by
5:05the Kings County District Attorney's
5:07office at the Olympian investigation
5:09they found that the evidence that sent
5:11me to prison was unreliable uh and the
5:13exaggerated me but I spent over two
5:15decades in prison for Crime I did not
5:17commitment
5:19gotcha so on top of that
5:22um it isn't just the fact that you were
5:25exonerated for a crime you didn't commit
5:27there maybe was some corruption along
5:29the way uh on the police side well the
5:32detective that convicted me there has
5:34been over 20 convictions uh twins
5:37honorations has to say uh and people he
5:40got wrongfully convicted uh he worked
5:42over 200 homicide cases all of them on
5:44Investigation
5:46um and so far 20 people has been a
5:47salary we're working on a few more
5:49ourselves so he was a a road cop in a
5:52big city
5:53um and just you know got carried away
5:55and just started locking up a lot of
5:57people on fought the evidence unreliable
5:59evidence he was just about closing cases
6:03um didn't care whether he was the right
6:04person or not damn damn I I've told you
6:07you and I talked on the phone a little
6:09bit and this is you know I I wanted to
6:12get right into the to the good part of
6:15this this topic and for me that is what
6:19we do what do we do right what are we
6:20doing wrong how do we fix this stuff
6:23um obviously one of the things that
6:26you're pointing out without pointing it
6:27out is how are we evaluated as officers
6:31how are we evaluated as detectives what
6:33makes us look good on paper for some
6:36places it's numbers
6:37right how many convictions do you get
6:40how many people are you locking away
6:41right
6:49right to get carried away uh but
6:52ultimately uh sometimes you get tunnel
6:54vision sometimes you get bad information
6:56from informants
6:58um you know sometimes you believe
6:59information that you receive and you
7:02just go with it without actually uh
7:05dotting your t's and crossing your eyes
7:06and you know look human nature uh gets
7:10us sometime we'll be so far gone and we
7:12got so much evidence and gathered so
7:14much stuff around one suspect that we
7:17forget to look at others but we should
7:18get to say hold on a minute you know in
7:20this case uh we had a female named
7:22Teresa Gomez who identified six
7:25different people in six homicides in six
7:27months
7:29um six different murders she identified
7:31people in in a six month period so you
7:34know this cop should have told Theresa
7:36come on Teresa like who sees six murders
7:38in six months one of the cases said she
7:41looked through a peephole and sort of
7:43murder there was no people on the door
7:44so you know some things just just it's
7:47just too
7:48like it's too untrue to believe and this
7:51was an informant saying that she saw six
7:53Martyrs she
7:56according to him she wasn't even in the
7:58foreman she was just a civilian who
8:00happened to see all these murders and he
8:02believed that of whatever reason or
8:04another he still today say he feels he
8:06was credible
8:07um but you know I think that you know as
8:10human beings right whether you're a
8:12detective or no matter what you are
8:13you're human being first and I think you
8:16should evaluate things by saying is this
8:18the type of evidence I would want to
8:20send me away the person you can start
8:22with that right yeah but I want this
8:25person to be deemed reliable when
8:28there's inconsistencies when there's you
8:31know when this object lying going on so
8:33I think what we need to do is watch the
8:35tunnel vision uh don't be too too eager
8:38to arrest somebody because you got to
8:40remember even if you get the right guy
8:42right and your paperwork is wrong right
8:45even if you get the right guy and you
8:46lock them up and you don't do it by the
8:48book you opening the door for him to get
8:50out right so if the objective is to get
8:52the right guy then you should crush your
8:54teeth and Dot your eyes to make sure
8:56you're doing everything about the book
8:58right you shouldn't do suggestive
9:00identification procedures while you may
9:02think showing a single photograph is a
9:04thing to do there's a lot of law that
9:05says it is wrong right you make sure
9:07your photo Ray is right you should make
9:09sure there's no suggestive evidence
9:10whatsoever so that you have to worry
9:12about some Court coming along later and
9:14saying hey man you should listen to this
9:16guy whatever so let's explain that to
9:18people that that don't because one thing
9:21that you guys don't know maybe about
9:23Derek is he got himself out of prison he
9:26became a jailhouse lawyer in a sense and
9:28educated himself on the law to the point
9:30where he won his own
9:33exoneration is that how that went Derek
9:35absolutely I mean that so if you're
9:38hearing them and you're like why the
9:39[ __ ] he know like that's how he knows
9:41because he took the time in these 23
9:44years that he was in to study the law
9:46educate himself and and basically help
9:49win his own freedom I mean if you're not
9:51gonna do who else is
9:53absolutely you know I work for
9:56I was involved in a lot of generations
9:57over the years so you know one of the
10:00best practices uh they talk about
10:02identifications and one of the major uh
10:06uh issues and wrongful convictions is
10:08mistaken identification procedures and
10:10what they have identified experts have
10:12identified that there's many different
10:15ways to suggest to a witness that the
10:19person they identifying is a person who
10:21committed a crime right there's a lot of
10:23different ways so for witness first says
10:25I can't identify the person who
10:28committed this crime right the witness
10:30has told you directly I don't know who
10:32did it so it's almost impossible to make
10:36this person recollect or to identify
10:39somebody without
10:40some form or suggested us right so
10:43that's the first thing you got to watch
10:44out for right if a person says they
10:46didn't are they unable
10:49um to identify a suspect and you show
10:52them a single photograph say take a look
10:54at this guy right take a good look at
10:56him you show us not this guy you showed
10:58us not the guy you saw right and then
11:01you take this same guy and put him in a
11:03photo array now let's say you put the
11:05same individual in a photo array with
11:07five other pictures
11:09so now when this person looking at the
11:11photo array the memory right is going to
11:13say oh it's this guy because now they
11:15just seen this guy a single photograph
11:16they see him now in the photo array now
11:19they're 100 sure
11:21that this is the guy this is the guy
11:22that did it right I know it's him how do
11:24you know it's him I'm 100 sure right
11:27that's the guy I've seen committed
11:28robbery because the way that the mind
11:30works
11:31um you subliminally suggest it to this
11:33guy by showing them a single photograph
11:34and then showing them again in the photo
11:37array that this is the person that
11:39committed a crime however I'm not lying
11:41they're not lying they think they think
11:43that is what it is and they're so Derek
11:47the the major reason I wanted you on
11:49here so we can educate cops citizens
11:52everybody all around so one of the
11:54things that uh I do where I'm at one of
11:57the in-house rules for us is one anytime
11:59we show what we call a six-pack it's a
12:02photo lineup of six people your suspect
12:04may or may not be in there but one it's
12:07a computer-generated Randomness so you
12:09have no control of the order
12:11um and two everybody has to be similarly
12:15looking and there can not be any
12:17distinctive like if your suspect has
12:20reported a scar down the right side of
12:22his face all of your people need to have
12:24a scar down the right side of their face
12:25so these are some of the steps we do to
12:28avoid what he's talking about and this
12:30isn't a common practice I mean let me
12:32step back this isn't a standardized
12:35practice I should say across the board
12:37so this is something we need to do we
12:39need to standard guys this style of
12:42identification and another thing that we
12:44do is like if it's my case I'm not
12:46allowed to show Witnesses
12:48right it has to be a it has to be an
12:50unrelated detective that comes in you
12:53just give them your stuff he goes in you
12:55and that's it
12:57so
12:58um I want I want to learn
13:01right that's a great practice I've got
13:04uh in New York it was they didn't have
13:07it they try to be Governor now they got
13:09some of it going on now but that prevent
13:11a lot of wrongful convictions so I
13:13commend I commend the commissioner there
13:15or the sheriff dead is doing that
13:17because that's very very important uh
13:20another thing I would say is that we got
13:21to be careful with television
13:24um television we all have it as human
13:26beings We Come Away with perceptions all
13:29the time right so let's say I get a tip
13:32somebody called me and said the guy you
13:34looking for is Derek Hamilton
13:36right this is the guy that committed the
13:37crime automatically my mind is saying I
13:40gotta tell right this can be the guy
13:43right so we gotta watch
13:47um building evidence around the
13:49individual that the tip came in on you
13:52got to be objective you got to find out
13:54is there evidence this guy came into
13:55crime or not right A lot of times God's
13:59backgrounds God might have been arrested
14:01for a similar crime previously right he
14:03may have a shady background so we may
14:06tend to say you know what I think this
14:07guy did this is him all right this is
14:09what this guy do like this is what he
14:11does like why would he do this one he
14:12did four or five other ones but hey you
14:14know that's how my mind works sometimes
14:17I'm like all right everything's fitting
14:19all right let me keep going
14:22all about mine worked out that way and
14:24then if you get a call or some evidence
14:26later show that they might be another
14:28suspect you may be far gone this
14:30investigation on this guy you may have
14:31got witnesses but whatever and you may
14:34not feel like going down another rabbit
14:35hole you know why would I go look and
14:37see if it's this other guy when all of
14:39the patents and evidence fit my suspect
14:41right here right so we closed the case
14:44base without investigation I think we
14:46need to be careful with that a lot of
14:48different reasons even if you got the
14:49right guy
14:50if some good defense lawyer you come
14:52over later and see there was another
14:54suspect and you never turned it over or
14:56did you never investigate it right and
14:59they go out and that's again the guy
15:01even if he's lying and if he says oh no
15:03I did commit this crime it was seven
15:05years later the statute of limitations
15:07is gone there's nothing could happen to
15:08him he might say anything
15:10so now you gave a guy get out of jail
15:11free cards because you didn't do that
15:13other investigation so I think we can we
15:16should make sure we you know cross all
15:18our T's and got our eyes and investigate
15:20all of the evidence don't leave any
15:22stone unturned because you open up the
15:25door uh for the fence Council or this
15:27guy may actually be innocent this other
15:29guy may have committed a crime somebody
15:31may have lied when they said it did my
15:32perception can be wrong so those are
15:35things you're going to be very careful
15:36about
15:37um because it's about getting the right
15:39guy it's about making sure when you get
15:41the right guy he stays in and one of the
15:43major things I want to say happens when
15:45you get the wrong guy in a lot of these
15:47cases the right guy continues to go out
15:50and commit more crimes so that's a
15:52public safety problem too so it's our
15:54job to make sure we get the right guy uh
15:56get him off the street and do it in the
15:58right way
16:00um one of the things tell me if you've
16:01noticed this that I have noticed
16:03in the criminal justice system is we
16:06find a guy to not be the person like
16:10let's say it is a person that's wrongly
16:11wrongfully convicted or we got him
16:14sitting in jail and he hasn't had the
16:16trial yet and then we we find out that
16:18it isn't the person that we're looking
16:20for and then what does the prosecutor do
16:23they figure out other charges for
16:26something else or a warrant like a lame
16:29ass warrant or something like that and
16:32I'm sitting there and I'm like
16:33we I always say we because it starts
16:37it's it's the criminal justice system
16:39and I unfortunately for police we're the
16:42we're the front line and we're always
16:44going to be to blame to start and I get
16:46that and I don't want to throw any more
16:48shade at us than necessary but
16:50um I'll see prosecutors that are holding
16:52on to some sort of charge that they can
16:54find even though this person's it's like
16:57this they gotta make up for [ __ ] up
16:59they're like oh well we screwed up this
17:01but he still did this so and in my mind
17:04I'm like no you screwed up let that guy
17:06like you're talking about a petty
17:08offense and now you're trying to you're
17:10trying to just save face
17:14the power oh yeah the the detective in
17:18my case Lewis Godzilla he says that
17:20every day
17:21he says I bought the case to the
17:24prosecutor and it was the prosecutor who
17:26prosecutor right they had the right to
17:28say no that I'm not going to believe
17:30this evidence right I don't prostitute
17:32cases I bring the case to the prosecutor
17:35um and he's right about that because he
17:37had an obligation to investigate get an
17:38obligation to make sure that the
17:40evidence he booked in was reliable but
17:42yet and still nobody talks about the
17:44prosecutor they get away uh Scott clean
17:47in this thing but you're right
17:49um prosecutors want to convict people
17:52um even when they get evidence that it's
17:54not the person they don't care they're
17:56too far gone they want to win a case
17:58um and they will prosecute almost
18:00anything
18:01um because they win they got a good
18:03conviction rate
18:04um they know that nine times out of ten
18:07they can make a jury to convict somebody
18:09on a scintilla level it's a little bit
18:12of evidence uh they've done it over and
18:13over again but I think one of the major
18:16things to learn uh in this criminal
18:18justice Forum that we're in right now is
18:21that we are all in it together right and
18:24we remember that right when I say we all
18:26in together I mean from the moment that
18:28somebody's arrested right there is a
18:31basic fundamental reason uh an
18:33interrogation right we we shouldn't just
18:36go in interrogation we're going to get a
18:38confession out of this guy right we
18:40shouldn't go in there with you know my
18:42job is to see if this guy confronts we
18:45should ask sensible questions right and
18:47if a guy says Hey I want a lawyer give
18:49him a lawyer don't push it oh yeah I
18:51said you know don't she she a lot of
18:53times we can't feed to somebody a story
18:57right because a lot of time I tell you
18:59in the New York City what happens with
19:00cops a lot right because the United
19:03States Supreme Court says they can lie
19:05and I give you names of cases where this
19:07is happening they changed by the name of
19:09Marty tanklin the 17 year old kid in
19:11Long Island
19:12who's been exonerated now white guy on
19:14Long Island his father and mother was
19:16brutally killed uh the police go there
19:19and they question Marty and they tell
19:22Marty that on this dying dead his father
19:24said Marty killed me Marty did this to
19:28me like Marty was the one that disorders
19:30and when the detectives wouldn't
19:32question Marty they said to Marty your
19:35father told us on his dying day that you
19:38was the one that did this now Marty says
19:41if my father told you that then it must
19:44be true I must have blanked out
19:47right my father wouldn't lie
19:49right he knows his father this is a
19:51young white 17 year old kid
19:53and he said my father wouldn't lie my
19:56father told you that then he go on to
19:58making confession and said that he made
20:00it blanked out and killed his father he
20:02did 17 years in prison on this
20:04confession
20:0517 years so I mean again then we found
20:08out later that Marty didn't commit the
20:10crime that it was for all the business
20:11partner uh you know who actually
20:13murdered him but you have to be careful
20:16because it's easy to influence and
20:18manipulate young kids
20:20to admit the things after being in the
20:23Precinct 12 and 14 hours tired just want
20:26to get out
20:28um you know we got cases where
20:30um every other detective and a priest
20:32and said that God said he had out about
20:33what detective come in Scottsdale and
20:35says that God confesses
20:37and he gets convicted on a confession
20:39things like that [ __ ] happen right it
20:42shouldn't happen because every other
20:44detective said hey this guy said he had
20:46Alabama to detectives and they wouldn't
20:48verify the Alabama came back uh we got a
20:50case with
20:52a police officer witnessed the murder
20:55he arrested the guy with the gun in his
20:58head
20:59turn them over to this detective who
21:02lets the guy convince him that his
21:04fellow officer is lying
21:06that he didn't do it that somebody else
21:09did it Nelson Cruz's name in that case
21:10in New York city so you know I think you
21:13know what we can't say that there's all
21:14bad offices
21:16um scottsella is one of a kind right
21:18when I say one of a kind I mean that
21:20look
21:2120 cases you know 20 cases 20 homicide
21:25cases and looking at 150 it's unheard of
21:28uh you know but in big cities like
21:31Chicago New York City and stuff like
21:33that it happens because there's so many
21:35murders but but I think the main thing
21:37to learn is that if you really believe
21:40somebody committed a crime is legal in
21:43lawful ways to investigate
21:45is legal in love with ways to catch this
21:48guy if he did it a good police work you
21:51know there's no way to get shortcuts
21:52right you just gotta dig in you got to
21:54dig in there's no shortcuts because you
21:57want to make people Chicago if you did
21:58it for a very long time yeah can you
22:00tell your camera down just a little bit
22:02it keeps cutting off your mouth there we
22:04go I just want to see there you go okay
22:07yeah yeah but um Okay so
22:12it's funny
22:14the differences like the stuff I hear
22:16you talking about is stuff that you know
22:18I I studied throughout my education
22:21through being a cop and pursuing you
22:23know degrees and stuff like that and
22:27this is like these people you tend to be
22:29helping you're all in this big era is is
22:33basically what I want to call it you're
22:35like all in this era 2017 15 years ago
22:38somewhere in these chunks or even longer
22:40but the practices have been changing for
22:46the better from what I see but like I
22:49said it's not a standardized practice
22:51like what we do for six packs and stuff
22:54like that I I'm sure there's departments
22:57that don't and and until they face the
23:01dire consequences of what happened to
23:03you or what happens to other people a
23:05lot of times that stuff goes unchecked
23:08because you don't know what you don't
23:10know
23:11yeah and it's about unions too you know
23:14if you get big police unions like New
23:16York City a lot of times they fight
23:18stuff right they don't want the best
23:20practices coming in they're used to
23:22doing things for so long a certain way
23:24um and it's a lot more difficult to get
23:27laws passed
23:28when you got big lobbyists and and
23:31you'll even say no we don't want to pass
23:32them because again they vote as well so
23:35they can sit too much as well so I mean
23:37I'm glad that Texas got it where you at
23:38and I think the best practice is to be
23:41Universal should be standardized
23:43um because it's the better of everybody
23:45um it wouldn't stop you from the rest
23:47arrest somebody that they committed a
23:49crime like there's no real hindrance and
23:52using the best practice the best
23:54practices for everybody
23:55is to protect cops just protect
23:57civilians uh is to protect the criminal
24:00justice system uh to make sure that you
24:03get the guilty person let the innocent
24:04people go free so I mean I'm happy that
24:07uh you know it's being instituted there
24:12um and I hope that a lot of different
24:14municipalities or counties and States
24:17I'm following you out of practice I
24:19think it should be definitely definitely
24:20everywhere because it will look when you
24:24look at you know that the prison
24:26industrial complex uh there's a lot of
24:28systemic racism in it
24:30um other people want to believe it or
24:31not but in some places and in some
24:34neighborhoods the police police more
24:36didn't do others because there's more
24:38violence in those neighborhoods than
24:39others and this may be justified in some
24:41in some degrees
24:43but if I'm a guy that's knowing about
24:45community
24:46and the crime happens in my community
24:48I'm automatically a suspect because of
24:51my reputation because of the fact that
24:54I'm known to have committed these type
24:56of crimes
24:57so
24:59um you know a lot of times you get
25:00people that say
25:01show my picture show this guy photograph
25:03even if they put it in a six-pack
25:06um the matter in which
25:08they communicate I've seen six packs
25:12with
25:13they have offices in them right in the
25:17hospitals on each side of the suspect
25:20and you're holding they caught pointing
25:23this way one on the other side pointing
25:25this way right so it's not just he's in
25:29the middle and you know you got two
25:30offices one point there's one point that
25:31way so there's a lot of different ways
25:33to suggest
25:35um and and you know it would seem as
25:37those instances I'm giving you is
25:38deliberate so double blind lineups is
25:41good
25:43is not involved
25:46um outside people come in and do them or
25:48they do the six-pack
25:50um you don't have to worry about it it's
25:51Human Nature uh for us to want to win us
25:56to want to get the bad guy off the
25:57street
25:58uh but we got to make sure we get the
26:00right one yeah I think one of the things
26:02that we really should focus on I mean
26:04from what you keep what you're talking
26:06about what I'm talking about is
26:09um is the reward system what is the
26:11reward system are cops are detectives
26:13like me like um
26:16even where I'm at like the office or the
26:20detective that writes a lot of warrants
26:21like he looks he's looked at as a badass
26:24detective like that dude oh man he
26:26killed it this month he wrote 30
26:27warrants
26:29okay I don't disagree that that's a a
26:32cool gauge of showing productivity it's
26:35better than the detective that sits over
26:36there on his ass and doesn't do [ __ ] he
26:39wrote one warrant and then you go look
26:40at his cases and you're like dude you
26:42had enough here to write two or three
26:44more warrants why didn't you why are you
26:45being lazy so
26:47how
26:49how what's another Matrix that we could
26:51have to and I'm just talking about the
26:54police level to to show good
26:57productivity because I don't think going
26:59out there and stroking a bunch of
27:00tickets necessarily that's going to
27:02cause a problem obviously now we can't
27:04have ticket quotas I think that got
27:05mixed in the 70s so how do you how do
27:09you quantify how do you measure a cop's
27:12success because to me I know an input I
27:16don't know if you have them there we
27:17call them neighborhood Patrol officers I
27:19love the officer the neighborhood patrol
27:20officer that gets out there and I ask
27:22them like who's the man hey folks Eric
27:24Levine from two cops one donut want
27:26something better than ring Arlo bring or
27:28any of the other quick launch home
27:30security systems I've been having
27:31trouble with my ring products they don't
27:33read license plates on moving Vehicles
27:35the link doesn't connect fast enough to
27:37my phone and I'm tired of getting
27:39notifications only to see like a glimpse
27:41of something that set it off I was
27:43reached by a veteran-owned business
27:45called agent security the owner the
27:48staff all veterans or former cops
27:50they're kind of like the Chick-fil-A of
27:52customer service when it comes to
27:54security they have a system that does
27:55everything companies like ring do and
27:57more they have pivoting cameras that
28:00track day or night they can also read
28:02license plates and catch high definition
28:03details that will lead police more
28:06effectively to catching the offender
28:07their mission is providing the best home
28:09security systems to their customers all
28:11you have to do is start the conversation
28:12to protect our most valuable assets our
28:15families they listen to your needs and
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28:18Solutions to protect what matters to you
28:20most you can contact them by phone at
28:25713-962-3558 or email info
28:28agentsecurity.com or visit their website
28:30agentsecurity.com that's a g e i n t s e
28:35c u r i t y.com they serve the Greater
28:39Houston area north Texas and more be
28:41sure to tell them that Eric Levine from
28:43two cops one bedroom at this store oh
28:44that's Frank he still does this you know
28:46his wife works over here I like that I
28:48like that an officer took the time to go
28:51out like that's not a quantifiable
28:52measure but that guy knows his area and
28:56he knows all his people that's awesome
28:59but that cop made me look down at
29:01certain departments because he doesn't
29:03write two tickets a week or a day and he
29:05doesn't you know make so many stops in a
29:07day like
29:09it's hard I I don't know another way and
29:13we're talking about prosecutors there is
29:15this what conviction rate and I don't
29:17even know that if that's still a true
29:19measure for them but conviction rates
29:21got to be important
29:23and I would rather them if you if you
29:25ever watched the movie Law Abiding
29:26Citizen you ever heard of that one no I
29:28never heard
29:29it out okay so I'll give you the quick
29:31premise of it
29:32um a husband father his wife and
29:35daughter are killed in front of them the
29:37wife is raped in front of him
29:38um and
29:40he's he's looking at the prosecutor he's
29:43hoping the prosecutor gets you know gets
29:45he knows who the guys are he IDs them
29:46these are the guys
29:47in the prosecutor um
29:50he goes on a technical he's like look I
29:53know that you say this as a guy but it's
29:55not what you know it's what you can
29:57prove
29:58and he's like we don't have enough to
30:01get these guys for the capital offense
30:03so why I'm gonna plea down
30:05and this guy goes on a [ __ ] Revenge
30:07Rampage you need to watch this movie if
30:09you haven't seen it
30:10um it's great Gerard Butler I mean Jamie
30:13Foxx two of my favorite actors but
30:14anyway
30:16um
30:16the basic premise and moral of the story
30:19was he didn't give a [ __ ] if he just
30:22wanted that prosecutor to try because it
30:24was what was right
30:26go after him because it's what's right I
30:28don't win lose you did what was right
30:30and you tried but you wanted to plea out
30:32to keep your conviction rate high
30:35so I don't know if that's still a
30:38measure I've had a couple prosecutors on
30:40they couldn't answer that question so
30:43um I I would love to know
30:46I think the measure look first of all
30:48the prosecutor works for the public
30:49right in New York when we asked for a
30:51plea for certain people
30:54um one of the things the prosecutors say
30:55most of the time is we're going to speak
30:57to the victims and see if they're okay
30:59with that right I say okay right that's
31:02what they do in New York City a lot
31:04um is they okay with the sentence that
31:05we give it to them if not and then say
31:07go ask the judge right the judge can
31:10give it to you but we are not going to
31:11give it to you because we have to
31:12protect the victim right as well if the
31:15victim want to go to travel this case
31:16but he feels like that's not enough time
31:18then we have to go to the victim but
31:21um you know I think the measures should
31:22be Justice right I think the real
31:25message should be whether or not you
31:27arrest someone first of all cops have
31:29discretion and I'm saying that they
31:31should use it you should make serious
31:33arrests no matter what right you should
31:35because violent crimes or crimes against
31:38public safety sometimes you got a recipe
31:40right but
31:42just because you have the power to rest
31:44doesn't mean that every arrest is good
31:47right I agree 100 you know what picture
31:50[ __ ] right you know
31:52you got a big gun you got a big gun
31:55problem right so I says what's the
31:57problem
31:58if I know I stop you illegally and I
32:00took a cut off for you I got a gun off
32:02the street right whatever is to me if I
32:05said get the [ __ ] out of here excuse my
32:06binocular take the gun to the precinct
32:08and say look I stopped this guy
32:10well here's a gun I got up
32:12the street right I know I stopped
32:16I know this guy right he didn't do
32:19anything wrong but I know him I know he
32:20had a gun in that damn car because I'm
32:22you know neighborhood I know what this
32:24guy does
32:25right but you don't need to lie in your
32:27word
32:28because this guy believe me you gonna
32:30catch him again legally with a gun
32:32because if he's that stupid and you know
32:34I mean this is what he does you're gonna
32:36be able to get him but you know
32:37sometimes we just get overzealous as
32:39human beings and we alive and we say hey
32:42what was in playing view or you know you
32:45make a story and sometimes justifiably
32:49to you is right because you figured this
32:51guy's an [ __ ] right but what happens
32:54is you continue that pattern right the
32:57pattern continues because if you get
32:59away with it once you set yourself with
33:01them there's another guy that's an
33:02[ __ ] because you're going to steep
33:04running the [ __ ] right now this is
33:06your pattern
33:08good lawyers see that pattern and they
33:10say hola you stop Five Guys in the same
33:13way
33:13right you stop seven guys in the same
33:15way you know so I think what we need to
33:18do is use this question right you stop
33:23that guy and you know that you stopped
33:24him illegal and you got that gun up the
33:26street I think you did a great job right
33:28but I think that lawfully
33:31you got to be able to City yourself if
33:33your department permits it is exactly
33:36what I just said look I stopped this guy
33:37I know God I know I stopped him wrong
33:40but we can send them to the Protestant
33:41we can decide if they want to decline to
33:43prosecute or we can let it go ahead
33:46but you let your sergeant know you let
33:48your Superior know exactly what happened
33:51I got a slight problem with that
33:55um I get what you're saying but my old
33:58school philosophy is you alluded to it a
34:01second ago is you know
34:04Tweedledum out there he [ __ ] up he's
34:06gonna we're gonna get him
34:08right today's not the day right that's
34:10the way I look at it today's not the day
34:12um I'm not going to I'm not gonna I'm
34:15not going to illegally stop him take the
34:17gun and then and then wash my hands with
34:19it but I will say you know what today's
34:21not today we ain't got we can't find
34:23anything on them today don't manufacture
34:25[ __ ] oh man don't lie we especially in
34:28today with body cameras and everything
34:30that's one of my favorite tools keeps
34:32everybody honest it's a you know a great
34:34checks and balances
34:36um I think in in the big picture of
34:38things it shows cops are primarily doing
34:40the right thing
34:41um and and follow you know going against
34:43the grain that the media likes to push
34:47um but I love also acknowledging the
34:51fact that there are [ __ ] up cops we
34:53have had them and I will get flat just
34:56for having this episode I'm telling you
34:57right now just for having you on I got
34:59Flack for having Aaron Dyson on and
35:01Shout Out Aaron I told him I was going
35:03to mention him with you on here
35:05um yeah I was like dude he's like he was
35:08on Joe Rogan I was like yeah he was a
35:09Rogan dude I was like I listened to the
35:11episode I was like I'm in the truck
35:12crying I'm a baby by the way I'm an
35:14emotional dude so uh here in your store
35:17I get choked up and then um so I tell
35:19him I'm like yeah dude he's like oh my
35:21God that's amazing I was like so I was
35:23like yeah I was like he's like he's in
35:25the business of exactly what happened to
35:27you man so I was like when I'm done I'll
35:30get him your information so um
35:34them out he sees this he'll see this
35:35episode and he's gonna know like I told
35:38you personally so he can't say oh you
35:40never said anything man so I got you
35:42Aaron
35:43um anyway uh
35:45it's it's that checks and balances and
35:48the ability like even with you you got
35:51on here and you didn't just sit there
35:53and claim you know that all these cops
35:56are foul all these prosecutors if I you
35:58said hey there's people that need to be
36:00arrested there's a ton of good cops out
36:01there most of them are doing the job
36:04it's just there's these outliers in in a
36:06place like New York 35 well shoot I
36:09think they're at 40 000 cops there's a
36:11you know a couple grains of sand are
36:13going to fall through for sure for sure
36:16so
36:17um I'm with you on that um I am not with
36:20you uh using discretion that way because
36:22our rights violation is a rights
36:24violation I'm not trying to break
36:25anybody's civil rights to get a gun off
36:27the street I'm I hear you I know I just
36:30[Music]
36:40I mean right and I'm saying is that I
36:43don't know how you stopped it right I
36:45give you a promise Apple the Federal
36:47Court ruled uh a couple years ago that
36:50the cops in New York City was using
36:52stopping the fritz illegally they banned
36:55a unit that was doing it right we get a
36:58black man that everybody loved Eric
36:59Adams he comes in he put the unit back
37:02he was a former cop wasn't he
37:06comes back he puts this unit right back
37:09in same thing is happening today so look
37:12I get it I understand it's a gun problem
37:15I know that it's going to be
37:17how do you get cops right to get these
37:21guns off the street in New York City
37:23which is a very big city
37:26um you know if there isn't some
37:29stops it may not be by the book you're
37:32gonna have them right unfortunately this
37:36big city you're gonna happen right this
37:38is something that we live with but you
37:40know what I'm saying is that discretion
37:43can be uh used in a way where you know
37:47if I know that I violated somebody
37:49rights questions in the jail right I
37:52should in turn lock them up throw them
37:55in jail knowing that my conscience
37:57shouldn't allow me you know if you're
37:59objectively get the gun and you got to
38:01get it but please you know use your
38:03discretion and keeping guys okay I see
38:07what you're saying now I get okay I
38:09misunderstood what you meant okay I see
38:11what you're saying all right
38:16all right they got a big thing now with
38:17cabs now it's it's stopping Ubers and
38:20saying the safety check you know it's
38:21the reason when it gets stopped now and
38:24it's just you know the search guys it's
38:26just to see if God's got weapons and you
38:28know again it violates civil rights
38:31um but
38:32to the powers of being in New York City
38:35you think it's Justified right rules
38:38it's Unwritten laws
38:40um when you know 11 year old kids or
38:43one-year-old kids getting shot by
38:45innocent bullets
38:47um young 15 to 16 year old kids went
38:49around shooting rapidly
38:51um you know cops see young kids riding
38:53around the car they look aggressively
38:55right wrong but you know it's just I
38:58mean you know Chicago same way New York
39:01City is the same way it's really really
39:02violent and it's something has to be
39:04done yeah we just had a five-year-old
39:07and a 17 year old killed in a drive-by
39:09wow yeah
39:11um it actually where I'm at this was a
39:14bad weekend it it's we're not on New
39:17York or Chicago's level by any means but
39:19it it was a violent it was a violent
39:22weekend for us and
39:23we are fortunate enough that we are not
39:26so big that things can get lost in the
39:28sauce the way they can in Chicago and
39:29New York we can address these issues and
39:31we can we can go after them
39:33intelligently
39:35technology-led you know
39:38um big stuff like that and that's one of
39:40the things that if you ever come back
39:42down here I would love to show you our
39:45technology our real-time crime Center
39:47and show you these new ways that we're
39:51going after old school crimes I mean the
39:53same stuff you know violent Corners
39:55where dopes being dealt and people are
39:57caring there's a lot of money involved
39:58and stuff like that we've changed the
40:01the game has evolved for cops press that
40:05to to a level that you you probably
40:07haven't seen yet
40:09and I had a cop tell me you know
40:10recently he said look man you know I
40:12know you're about wrong for conviction
40:13getting these guys out but my last 15
40:15homicides is on video you know what I
40:18mean like these guys are hopeful so I
40:20mean there's definitely technology I
40:22mean a lot of it and I think it should
40:24be utilized it should be you know drones
40:26everything should be utilized you know
40:28you get information
40:29yeah I love it and I tell people like my
40:32job as a cop when I see us
40:35um starting to use this technology you
40:37know is to make sure that we don't cross
40:42the line we're not looking in your
40:43backyard without a warrant we're not big
40:45brothering things cameras are great in
40:48public places that's what I say cameras
40:50are a public place facility like that's
40:52perfect but if you're going to start
40:55looking into someone's house into
40:56somebody's car in somebody's backyard
40:58take the extra day write the warrant get
41:01the judge to approve it you know if he
41:04doesn't think you have it yet figure out
41:06what you need that's one of the beauties
41:07of being a cop we're talking a little
41:09bit about the gray area you said you
41:11know you know the guy's got a gun you
41:13can't got nothing on but you stop him
41:14anyway you get that gun off of them hey
41:16kick rocks we know we'll get you again
41:19but I got you again you know
41:24so good police work is generally there's
41:27this gray area that we have to it's
41:29constantly if you ain't cheating you
41:30ain't trying if it's not necessarily
41:32against the rule yet we're going to try
41:34to use that and exploit that loophole
41:36that we have until somebody says no
41:38that's not right or they say you know
41:40what yeah this is a good tool good job
41:42you know you you guys came up with a
41:45unique method of fighting crime and we
41:47we agree with it so it just depends
41:49that's the beauty of laws it's based on
41:52public opinion so uh what was good in
41:55the 70s and 80s is not good now what's
41:58you know kind of like stop and frisk
42:01Ebbs and flows it just depends on the
42:03public perception
42:08and again technology gives you a better
42:11chance to do things different
42:13um you know look fingerprints look at
42:15that I mean we would think yeah I heard
42:16you talking about Prince on Rogan man
42:18difference was 100 reliable at one time
42:21you know who wouldn't
42:23say I got a friend to you he did it he
42:25had to do it you know there's ever right
42:27now in fingerprints so you got to
42:28consider that just because you got to
42:30got fingerprints up it looked like that
42:32maybe is you got to consider error right
42:34now right you gotta say okay is this
42:37really this guy's if it's 40 30 let's
42:40get something else let's see if we can
42:42find something else you know it makes
42:43you work a little harder but but you
42:46know a little extra work will definitely
42:48prove that there's been Justice Done
42:50Right that we got the right guy that
42:53only got his fingerprints but we found
42:55some DNA over here or his phone uh put
42:58them in in the area at the time the
43:00crime happened or you know whatever it
43:01may be you know go a little further and
43:03step further and see if you can get
43:05something else the corroborate I'm
43:07thinking because we know that it's not
43:09as reliable as it once was so you know
43:11we just got a little extra work on all
43:14of our parts you know and and perception
43:16of telling you perception television is
43:20the biggest problem for us as human
43:22beings
43:23um you know look
43:25me I think that I'm a goddess that's as
43:28Fair as ever right I found myself
43:31watching the news uh the crime happened
43:34and I said oh man a cops got to get
43:36these [ __ ] man just throw it
43:38out of the street
43:41and then they arrest these guys you say
43:43good they got them this guy was dirty
43:45they should have did it but then you
43:47find out that it wasn't as the victim
43:50said it was
43:51right this is the story the cops is live
43:54the media was live too everybody was
43:56lied to resistance you know what I mean
43:58so I mean what do you say in situations
44:01like that you know everybody had
44:03television that's what happens and this
44:05is why you know as police officers you
44:08are entrusted you are entrusted with a
44:11lot right because you're the greatest
44:14guy in the world as soon as you make a
44:16mistake you know what I mean as soon as
44:17you can do something wrong and
44:18crucifying and that's the whole
44:19department yeah not just you all of you
44:22not me so you gotta be careful man
44:25because you know it's not just you uh
44:28the impropriety then parents of
44:29impropriate you only have to be in
44:30propriety just the impairment that you
44:33doing something wrong uh goes on the
44:35whole department
44:36um and prosecutors the same way right
44:39because the prosecutors is the arm of
44:41law enforcement when they do something
44:43wrong you guys get that
44:45right you guys get that too because no
44:48one sees them
44:49nobody sees them nobody follows through
44:52nobody looks and sees what the results
44:54were and what the findings are on a Case
44:57all they hear is this guy got loose or
45:00this guy got convicted and then we find
45:01out that you know the cop [ __ ] up
45:03somewhere and or you don't the
45:06prosecutors they I don't see any end you
45:10never see you never hear of anything at
45:12the end with with the prosecutor with
45:14the judge with uh
45:16um I well the defense attorneys I never
45:19hear anything about them I guess the
45:21court system in itself is an enigma you
45:23never hear anything about the court
45:25system
45:26um very rarely the only time that I can
45:29recall hearing anything about courts was
45:31Private jails being in cohort with uh
45:34with judges right and I think that was
45:36in Pennsylvania or something like that
45:40so that [ __ ] like I'm and don't get me
45:43started with private jails I'm prisons
45:46I'm not I'm totally against that
45:49um that's just opening the door for
45:50corruption all right money money money
45:52yeah yeah exactly yeah
45:55um and that's
45:57even if it's not even if they're being a
46:00hundred percent you know up front and
46:03everything's legit it's just too
46:05tempting it's too easy to switch over
46:07it's and it's and it's hard to catch you
46:10know and one of our most unprotected
46:13areas is prisons I mean it's it's more
46:18bars more walls tired you know they like
46:21that's kind of the premise and I am of
46:24the opinion of yes bad people do bad
46:26things they deserve punishment all that
46:28stuff however at the same time I'm also
46:32the person who's like if they got a
46:34chance of getting out
46:36how do I prevent them from going back I
46:38don't want recidivism I don't want them
46:40to go back I want them to come back and
46:42kick ass and one of my biggest pet
46:46peeves is the the term felon
46:50[ __ ] just did 15 years for a
46:52crime he paid for it and he gets out and
46:56he's got the tag felon
46:57all this training and stuff that we
46:59allowed him to get that we paid for
47:01while he was rehabilitating
47:04he can't use it he can't even be a
47:06goddamn Barber when they get out yeah
47:09like
47:10that makes no sense that drives me nuts
47:13like that's one of the first things you
47:14know if you give me presidential Powers
47:16today is that tag like I want I want
47:21them to be successful let's get them out
47:23of jail yes they they [ __ ] up they and
47:26a lot of like Aaron I love Aaron's story
47:28because Aaron's one of the first guys to
47:30tell you yeah I screwed up I was 16. I
47:31was a dumb kid I did something stupid
47:34but what they convicted me for I didn't
47:36do and I wasn't guilty of and that's
47:38[ __ ] and the guy that killed his
47:40cousin that he retaliated on
47:43got 12 years wow Aaron was in jail for
47:4726. Wow and he didn't kill anybody
47:50and then the guy that killed his cousin
47:53was advocating for him to get out of
47:55jail crazy right so
47:58um in that you know I'm like that really
48:01opened my eyes like I I this is a blind
48:04spot for cops maybe this can be
48:05something else you advocate for
48:07we don't really see much after we put
48:11our case into court like if I like me
48:13I'm I'm pretty good at writing reports I
48:15rarely have to go to the court I don't
48:18go to court that often because my
48:19reports are rock solid and just like you
48:22say I don't I don't put all my eggs in
48:23one basket I don't rely just on Prince
48:26um and and maybe that's the the best
48:29practices that I was given through the
48:30people that trained me
48:32um
48:32in in the stuff that you you're talking
48:35about like man I just keep I want Derek
48:38you got to come down and see see what
48:40I'm seeing here maybe it'll help you
48:42because people are going to listen to
48:43your message man like especially now
48:46that you've been on Rogan well
48:47especially now that you've been two cops
48:48one donut you're gonna blow up son like
48:50tens of tens of people are gonna come
48:52check you out uh but no man I I
48:56now that you're out and that you are
48:59such a voice for you know like I don't
49:02if you're not with the Innocence Project
49:04are you I'm working with them on
49:06legislation okay Jack and Rebecca proud
49:10and all those people
49:11um we definitely worked with them all
49:13the time on changing legislation around
49:15the country uh we go out and we speak to
49:18legislators about changing
49:19identification proceeds they'll be
49:21talking about uh changing professions
49:23I'm changing the way that uh you know
49:26police are monitored uh we do the same
49:28thing about prosecutors running on some
49:30of them accountable
49:31um we just want to make sure that the
49:33best practices that you know and I know
49:35are simply implemented in every state so
49:38we go around the country and doing some
49:39of that stuff but I work with them a lot
49:41in New York we've changed a lot of laws
49:44there
49:45um shout out to Innocence Project
49:46Rebecca Brown uh but uh me and Josh
49:49Dubin is is is working on something now
49:52should be announced in another month
49:55um a very big project uh that's going to
49:58be something like the end of this
49:59project
50:00um we intend to to get a lot of people
50:02out of prison don't belong there all
50:04right let me let me just tell you this
50:06episode won't air for at least another
50:09seven weeks gotcha because I'm that far
50:12ahead so if you want to announce it now
50:14it won't get out until then
50:17I'll tell you you might be a
50:19I'm under you know obligation not to say
50:22now because they haven't launched it yet
50:24okay but I can say that it's going to be
50:27with a major Law School uh it's gonna be
50:30uh very very big
50:33um it's gonna help a lot of people and
50:35we're gonna not only just be uh working
50:38on wrongly convicted cases but we're
50:40also going to be educating uh judges you
50:44know he has to take lawyers and
50:45prosecutors on drug science right we're
50:48going to be educating yeah like blood
50:50splatter and [ __ ] like that
50:54yeah so
50:55this is something to consider okay
50:59I would love for you like we're talking
51:02about best practices it would be great
51:04if you had it in Your Arsenal hey do
51:06like X department does like this is a
51:09standard practice that we agree with
51:11this is good do what this Department's
51:13doing here when it comes to
51:14interrogation and this department for
51:16six packs and stuff like that man if you
51:19had just a a pamphlet hey look these are
51:22the best practices we've seen so far
51:24because like for me I'm always trying to
51:26improve if you've seen something at
51:28Chicago PD that I never heard of I'd be
51:31like damn like this is what I need to
51:33know because this guy is out here trying
51:35to get people out of jail that I may be
51:38trying to put in and like maybe he's
51:39seeing something I don't want to screw
51:40up if I can do it better let me do it
51:42better like I said I'm a rock solid like
51:45when I put a case together good luck
51:47like there ain't much to fight
51:50um so but that's that's the standard
51:54practice where I'm at and I had really
51:55good mentors when it comes to detective
51:58work so we often say a guy that I work
52:02with two by the name is Justin bonus we
52:05often say that in some Southern States
52:07uh people would be surprised on how more
52:10transparent and fair they are right than
52:13New York
52:14um in New York I'll give you an example
52:17when you get into recent I've been in
52:20your state when the suspect is arrested
52:22the moment he comes in the precinct he's
52:24on video
52:26and to the moment he leaves he's on
52:29video in New York City it's not like
52:31that right a guy was being police
52:33custody for a very long time and the
52:36only time he's on video was when he's
52:37taking confessing was when he's making a
52:40statement everything up to the video you
52:43don't know what happened right you don't
52:46know so you know these are things that
52:47the union fight uh because they don't
52:50want it they don't want the best
52:51practices
52:52um and they're so used to doing things
52:54the way that they've been doing it they
52:57look at it as if well why would I want
52:59to be on video
53:00a lot of video watch me all day in the
53:02preset right but if you're doing nothing
53:04wrong what are you worrying about right
53:05and it is good for society you know that
53:08you above reproach that you're doing
53:10everything with Integrity right and and
53:13you should do everything so now those
53:15you know look different states uh
53:17different police departments do things
53:19different
53:20um I believe that the best practice
53:22should be that you're on video from the
53:25moment that you have stopped camcorder
53:27outside in the Precision video and a lot
53:31of different reasons because if
53:33I confess and I see the cop beat me up
53:36slap me he made me confess you know you
53:39got a video that should have never
53:40happened in protection as a police
53:43officer protection this guy's a liar
53:45look at the video he came in there was
53:47nothing wrong when he left there was
53:48nothing wrong with him for the moment he
53:49came in he was on video so I don't see
53:51why he would fight that I think that
53:53Jesus things that
53:54transparency need to be right everybody
53:57need to see what the truth is
54:00um and again it helps because now if
54:02this guy came in and started confessing
54:04just start running his mouth you
54:06memorandize him said man you gotta write
54:08your main salad he wanted to talk he can
54:10no longer fight that there's no reason
54:12for a court giving him a hundred because
54:14you got the video hey look at the video
54:16and it's safe tax payers money right it
54:19saves a lot of back and forth right he
54:22says a lot of allegations against police
54:24officers that may not be true because
54:25this guy said you beat him up and you
54:28didn't do it right it has to bother you
54:30somehow right it has to put a stain on
54:33your record if he writes it up and make
54:34the complaint now he's spending time
54:36defending against it when it could have
54:38been resolved by you know should be
54:40having a video and I think every state
54:42should happen I don't see one reason it
54:44doesn't cost that much you know I know
54:45you can put video present any day or
54:49bare minimum
54:50if like for us because there are some
54:54places that we just don't have cameras
54:57um inside the building that doesn't
54:59matter if a suspect comes in somebody
55:01with a body camera has to stay with them
55:03there should be no lapse in time until
55:05that person is in a place where he could
55:07be recorded so that's one of the cheap
55:10ways we get around you know outfitting
55:13an old ass building with camera systems
55:15is we just if if you're bringing
55:18somebody in well guess what you need to
55:19be recording on your personal body
55:21camera somebody stays with them and then
55:23as soon as you get in get them into a
55:25interview room the interview room's all
55:27mic'd up and recording yeah and then you
55:30put them in there but until till then if
55:31he has to sit down in a chair we'll
55:33guess who's sitting next to him the
55:35officer with a body Cam and that's just
55:37the way it is
55:38so I'm with you on that brother
55:41um
55:42okay I kind of want to switch gears
55:44because you've got a view on the side of
55:46the house that I have zero experience
55:48with okay and that's the prison side
55:50um Aaron when he was on uh talked about
55:53some disturbing stuff with Corrections
55:56Officers and and uh possible corruption
55:59and stuff like that now you're the
56:01second person that I've had on that not
56:04only one one you were found innocent
56:06okay you didn't commit murder you were
56:08in prison that long so you going into
56:10that house is a totally different type
56:13of
56:14um perspective versus a guy that know he
56:16killed somebody and now he's inside and
56:18like that's different that that's just
56:21different so
56:23um regardless if you had committed any
56:25you know crimes before that I don't give
56:27a [ __ ] I don't care because I'm only
56:30talking about the reason you were put in
56:32prison in the first place you didn't do
56:33it so in that effect like what was the
56:37what was it like what year did you go in
56:40I wanted a 1991 last time I went in
56:441991.
56:45um and look Rikers Island this is the
56:49worst of the worst
56:52um it's the it's a well at that time I
56:55think it was 38 000 inmates or something
56:58like that holy [ __ ] from different
57:01buildings and it's just
57:04you know it's just overcrowded very
57:07valid very very wrong place and you talk
57:09about balance stuff about balance on
57:11behalf of staff and the uh detainees as
57:16well
57:17um and it's just this is just the worst
57:20uh imaginable
57:23um 24 hours a day
57:25for any human being because you uh
57:28degraded you are treated less than a
57:31human being
57:32um you are forced to be in a toxic
57:35atmosphere 24 hours a day
57:39um and you can die in there I mean
57:40people have died in it uh it's violent
57:43there's a lot of knives and weapons and
57:46drugs and and and abuse and you know
57:50it's it's look today it's all over the
57:53news today about
57:55um you know how the prison guards don't
57:58want to work there anymore and they're
57:59being mandated so now he says the the
58:02detainees are running the houses they
58:04supervising themselves because
58:06correction officers are banging in and
58:08not coming to work
58:09are they under staff
58:11um that's how abusive it is and and it
58:13has gotten worse and worse and worse
58:16because
58:18it just mismanaged like when he's it's a
58:21big mismanagement from the top down
58:23right and you know you and again you got
58:26detaine these guys are not convicted of
58:28anything they're just accused of crimes
58:30uh and you have to give them certain
58:33minimum standards but if you treat
58:35people like animals they tend to start
58:38acting like animals and I say that uh
58:41from the way that it's dirty
58:44um you know it's not clean
58:46um this episode of the podcast is
58:48brought to you by impact tactical mpac
58:50is a tactical outfitter for the men and
58:52women of our military police fire
58:55departments and other Public Safety
58:56around the country mpac's core beliefs
58:58is that Fearless men and women protect
59:00our freedom and safety should have
59:02access to the best tactical performance
59:04apparel equipment and tools on the
59:06market and they shouldn't have to go
59:07broke to get it I've used impact for
59:09about 11 years and I can attest that
59:11they do live up to their core values so
59:13you get a personal recommendation from
59:15me you can find them at impact
59:16tactical.com that's end
59:19paktactical.com and be sure to tell them
59:22that two cops one donut sent you
59:30despicable I think if people was to see
59:34and I think you get some of it now I
59:36think about 20 people died in the last
59:38few years
59:40um and I think you get a lot of outcryl
59:41and close down Rikers Island now because
59:43they figure they can't fix it so they're
59:46saying it's going so rapid that it's
59:48impossible to fix so we need to close it
59:51down start somewhere else so for me the
59:54records on the Spurs was terrible
59:57um I was a a bigger got an average
1:00:00um but I spent most of my weekend hours
1:00:02in the law library so I would get out of
1:00:04the housing area where all the nonsense
1:00:06goes on most of the times and I would go
1:00:08to law library and spend a lot of hours
1:00:10there when I get back in the shower and
1:00:13a little time I spent on the gallery
1:00:14would be uh minor and then most people
1:00:19would be coming asking questions because
1:00:20they too was fighting cases they too
1:00:23were trying to learn something to figure
1:00:25out what to tell a lawyer when they go
1:00:26back to court or whatever the
1:00:28circumstances were so you know I think
1:00:30for me
1:00:32um having a purpose right knowing that I
1:00:35wanted to get out of here like I didn't
1:00:37want to be the cool guy in the block
1:00:39hanging out
1:00:40um just to say I'm cool
1:00:43um you know I wanted to fight decision
1:00:44to get that out of here so it protected
1:00:47me a lot
1:00:48um it kept me away from a lot of
1:00:50nonsense
1:00:51um but you know you see it all you see
1:00:53guys getting stabbed over telephones she
1:00:55guys getting robbed and commissary took
1:00:57um you know you see uh correctional
1:00:59officers that want to be down uh they
1:01:02might come in and you know want to fight
1:01:04a God just to get a rep right so it goes
1:01:07both ways uh you see prisoners facing
1:01:10life that might want to start a
1:01:11correction officer and say you're able
1:01:13to bring me this [ __ ] in tomorrow or I'm
1:01:15gonna kill you if you got 80 inmates to
1:01:17one correction officer and this guy is
1:01:20steady to this one Gallery he has no
1:01:22control
1:01:23make no mistake about it it should never
1:01:25be that way but it is right you may have
1:01:28160 inmates or detainees I should say to
1:01:32two correction officers or three
1:01:34correction officers one on the bridge
1:01:35one on each side of the gallery how can
1:01:38he really supervise how can he really
1:01:40stop something from happening right and
1:01:43reality is in his mind he said all I
1:01:46want to do is eat eight hours or 12
1:01:47whatever I gotta do and get the hell
1:01:48onto my family because any given moment
1:01:51you know one of these guys could decide
1:01:53I'm not making it home and I'm not
1:01:56making it home so you know it's it's a
1:01:58real
1:01:59uh you know violent atmosphere it's
1:02:01intimidating
1:02:02uh for both uh young officers and young
1:02:07amazing officers alike and you know I
1:02:11always say that it's a thin line because
1:02:14human beings are human beings right well
1:02:17I'm a correctional officer detainee if
1:02:19I'm in the prison the most fundamental
1:02:22thing to me is safety right don't get
1:02:25hurt right so if a guy's attacking me
1:02:27I'm trying to defend myself you know if
1:02:30I'm a correctional officer I'm not
1:02:31worried about what they taught me in the
1:02:33academy right I'm trying to bust his ass
1:02:36right so I can get going to my family
1:02:38right but then again you being penalized
1:02:42for that right you're being penalized
1:02:44for that so now you get other officers
1:02:46to say yo I'm not coming to work you
1:02:48know this guy punched me in my face and
1:02:50he want to beat me up but I got to raise
1:02:52my hand and he raised his hand I mean I
1:02:54can't hit him back right I'm gonna get
1:02:56punched in my face every day
1:02:58but the way these guys operate right so
1:03:02you know there's systems man that need
1:03:05to be changed and when I say change it's
1:03:08both ways right it's just not one way
1:03:10right I mean it should be and I'll give
1:03:13you another one I say unsanitary right
1:03:15they rely on the prisoners to clean up
1:03:19right you rely on the prisoners to clean
1:03:22up
1:03:23the showers the facilities and
1:03:25everything but you pay them
1:03:27a minuscule amount of money right they
1:03:31don't get minimum wage right they get
1:03:33nowhere near minimum wage but you we
1:03:35expect them to really you know you got
1:03:37something called House Gang in New York
1:03:39City guys might get seven dollars a week
1:03:41and you want them to scrub the whole
1:03:43it's not gonna happen
1:03:45right these guys are going to give you a
1:03:46[ __ ] job right keep it moving right
1:03:49and then what happens Mo black mold
1:03:52starts developing the shower area and
1:03:54you know it it really to me
1:03:58it undermines
1:04:00uh giving people
1:04:02what they call Rehabilitation
1:04:04right because if you take this same trip
1:04:07Upstate New York right facilities ran by
1:04:10the state
1:04:12the guy that comes out to clean up the
1:04:13supervised right and they're going to
1:04:15make sure he does a good job
1:04:17right you're gonna make sure that he
1:04:19learns how to be a good portal so he can
1:04:22take this with him to janitorial
1:04:24services to the outside
1:04:25right so you know if you're going to
1:04:27give guys tags to do I think first you
1:04:31should pay them second you should train
1:04:32them third you should make sure they're
1:04:34doing it correctly as soon they leave at
1:04:36least they can have this skill to go
1:04:38home with right and it takes away from
1:04:40civilism but uh you know Rikers Island
1:04:43you don't have it uh and when you go
1:04:45upstate it's a different environment in
1:04:47New York because it's more organized
1:04:50right there was programs right there and
1:04:53determined stuff that you have to do
1:04:55right in order to better yourself
1:04:58right you just can't sit down all day
1:05:00and play cards right you can't because
1:05:03you know you know you got to do
1:05:04something productive
1:05:05I think that changes the way people mind
1:05:08work right social stimuli helps some
1:05:11individuals if you don't got social
1:05:13stimuli you got nothing
1:05:15right so you know up there at least you
1:05:17get some social stuff like you get group
1:05:18settings get out you do things that's
1:05:20productive and help you be able to be uh
1:05:23you know brought back to society with
1:05:25skills but with something that you can
1:05:27fall back on but prisons that don't give
1:05:30you that prisons that just house you
1:05:33Warehouse you and don't give you his
1:05:35social stimuli is doing a disservice to
1:05:38you it's destroying you right it's
1:05:40making you angry and then when you get
1:05:42out they expect you to be
1:05:44you know expect you to be saved like a
1:05:47lot of times in prison
1:05:49Mental Health
1:05:51is never addressed right for a lot of
1:05:54different reasons the number one reason
1:05:55is that there's too many prisoners in
1:05:58most facilities
1:05:59the mental health staff can't add up
1:06:01right the reality is just too many
1:06:03prisoners that's part of the reason a
1:06:06lot of people go in anyway right mental
1:06:08health issues
1:06:10so when you go in you don't get
1:06:11addressed in New York City you got guys
1:06:13getting out
1:06:14they're homeless so where are they going
1:06:16in the subway stations so you got a lot
1:06:18of crimes now in the subway stations and
1:06:21they said why is the subway station so
1:06:22violent these guys are coming straight
1:06:24out of prison with mental health records
1:06:26and they're homeless and they're going
1:06:27to the subway because they got nowhere
1:06:28to go
1:06:29so now when you see stabbers shootings
1:06:32guys throwing feces on people that never
1:06:34heard of before right this is prison
1:06:36stuff they bring it to society now so I
1:06:38think as a whole
1:06:40um we have to make sure that the prisons
1:06:43operate in a manner
1:06:45in which we know that these guys are
1:06:47getting out one day the majority of them
1:06:52right and we want to make sure that when
1:06:54they're in there that one they have
1:06:57incentives to get out right and what I
1:06:59say is this if you got if you know a guy
1:07:01who's getting 20 years and he on his
1:07:03first year he got nothing to look
1:07:05forward to
1:07:06right you're not promising them good
1:07:08time you're not saying hey man for every
1:07:10month you stay out we give you three
1:07:12days every month you stay out we give
1:07:14you five days stay out of trouble I mean
1:07:17every month you stay out of trouble we
1:07:19give you a few days right years ago they
1:07:22used to be incentivized to keep guys out
1:07:24of trouble uh with a crime bill that
1:07:27died in Clinton in the past they took
1:07:29away good time and everything 85 percent
1:07:32so what did I do it made guys figure
1:07:35like what the hell I got to be good for
1:07:36right so it creates more violent
1:07:40environment for correctional officers
1:07:42and prisoners alike uh they create
1:07:44situations in New York City where people
1:07:46really just don't want to be
1:07:47correctional officers they really don't
1:07:49want to be one down there so yeah I mean
1:07:51when you talk about Federal uh it's a
1:07:53whole different can of worms uh each
1:07:56state as you know got different
1:07:58facilities and do things different so
1:08:00it's not like you know it's a one-state
1:08:01fix-all
1:08:03um but but you know New York is terrible
1:08:05okay
1:08:07so
1:08:08I'm I'm exploring your your Solutions
1:08:12okay so
1:08:14um the idea of paying the inmates
1:08:16incentivizing them and training them in
1:08:18in
1:08:19you know more than just having some
1:08:22you know I guarantee probably most of
1:08:24them are all buds anyway so they
1:08:26probably [ __ ] the whole time while
1:08:28they're trying to sanitize your
1:08:29washrooms and whatnot but pay them
1:08:33look yeah look
1:08:34guys
1:08:36doing industry work
1:08:37and prison industry work may be making
1:08:40lockets making shares making core crap
1:08:44or the uniforms that they wear right
1:08:46they may be making license plates right
1:08:49because you know that in every state
1:08:52that's a place they're made in prison
1:08:53right DMV DMV is one of the corporations
1:08:57but
1:08:58you got guys that do this for 20 25
1:09:00years
1:09:01when they get out
1:09:03they don't get a job in DMV if they
1:09:06apply they told they can't work there
1:09:07right so so you know my thing is that
1:09:10you have to treat people like human
1:09:13beings
1:09:14right you have to give them something
1:09:16right then you put away some of the
1:09:19money they earn
1:09:20so they can't use it all while they're
1:09:22in there so when they get out they have
1:09:24something to look forward to to be able
1:09:26to you know help take care of the family
1:09:28so or get an apartment or whatever it
1:09:30may be but you have to treat them like
1:09:33human beings right you can't treat them
1:09:35like slaves and then expect them to
1:09:38um you know get out and and you have
1:09:41equal footing because when they get out
1:09:43they discriminated against most of the
1:09:44time right because they can't get jobs
1:09:48that they want they got that tag
1:09:50they got that
1:09:52they got that tag and this is what
1:09:54drives me [ __ ] insane is like what is
1:09:57your goal what is your goal when you
1:09:59send them to jail is it just punishment
1:10:00if it's just punishment okay I can't
1:10:03argue that but that's not how our
1:10:05system's set up our system's set up for
1:10:07justice is set up for rehabilitation and
1:10:11um and and
1:10:12foreign
1:10:15pillars like there's there's three
1:10:17different things yes there has to be
1:10:18some sort of punitive thing there has to
1:10:20be Rehabilitation and Justice I mean I
1:10:22get all of that
1:10:24so if that is the if that's the big
1:10:27thing we got to start setting these
1:10:29people up for Success when they get out
1:10:32because if you don't and I and I I
1:10:35understand the the mindset of you know
1:10:38that guy you know he robbed three stores
1:10:41he he beat the [ __ ] out of you know four
1:10:43different people and left some guy you
1:10:46know crippled okay
1:10:49tell me what his time is
1:10:51and during that time let him develop a
1:10:54skill when he gets out because once he
1:10:57gets out he's done the time you said he
1:11:00needed to do you can't keep punishing
1:11:02him for life
1:11:03because if that's the case give his ass
1:11:05life and leave him in there
1:11:11yeah
1:11:12let's figure out like you know what
1:11:14happened yeah what happened generations
1:11:17of families without fathers I mean
1:11:19there's just so many different oh my God
1:11:22we could do a whole another episode on
1:11:24this sir
1:11:25what happened what is the cause that
1:11:27created that
1:11:28um you know one of the things I say in
1:11:30the city a lot
1:11:31is that
1:11:32look you don't get Anger Management
1:11:34Programs until you go to jail
1:11:37uh most of the guys in my neighborhood
1:11:38never had one until it's too late right
1:11:41yeah I mean like these things should be
1:11:43you know in a neighborhood where the
1:11:45violence was crazy
1:11:46junior high schools
1:11:51I know about short-term long-term
1:11:53consequences until I was in prison right
1:11:56I didn't know about reduces and how to
1:11:59walk away right because it's the first
1:12:01thing you say when you're a young guy
1:12:02you know when somebody Shrine you what
1:12:04does God think I'm soft I think I'm
1:12:06gonna Punk or something you start
1:12:07telling yourself this negative
1:12:08self-taught right that make you react a
1:12:11certain way right so when you learn that
1:12:14nah the god might not think any of that
1:12:22right because I know that if I do this
1:12:25there's going to be a consequence right
1:12:27it's going to be a short-term
1:12:28consequence and it might be a long
1:12:30triple right so now you're thinking
1:12:32before you react right he's thinking
1:12:35when you're young it's just react react
1:12:37react react because you're not taught
1:12:39the thinking part before you react or
1:12:42the fact that Joe if you do this right
1:12:45you're gonna go to jail for five years
1:12:47you don't lose your mother you know
1:12:49you're not gonna be around yourself like
1:12:50is it really worth it right because you
1:12:52think this guy thinking yourself he even
1:12:55say yourself it's all in your own mind
1:12:57that you put yourself that you don't
1:12:59know what the triggers are right you
1:13:02don't know what triggered you to respond
1:13:04a certain way until you understand what
1:13:06a trigger when you're that young you
1:13:08never even know where the trigger is
1:13:09period so I think that we need to invest
1:13:11more and educate youth especially in
1:13:14areas where violence and gains is at a
1:13:17high level because to me a lot of people
1:13:19getting games because they want to deal
1:13:21with violence
1:13:22right they want to see you know what
1:13:23these guys are templing me or better
1:13:25than me I'm gonna deal with them I can't
1:13:27beat him I join them
1:13:28right because they don't have the tools
1:13:30to be taught how to avoid them right or
1:13:34how to not be a part of them by being
1:13:36proactive right because you teach these
1:13:39guys that look it ain't about anger it's
1:13:42not about violence right you can
1:13:45actually prevent Violence by a lot of
1:13:48different ways a lot of different ways
1:13:50right but if you you know if you forced
1:13:52to defend yourself that's one thing but
1:13:54but you just don't because the guy bump
1:13:56you you know or God curse you out or God
1:13:59talks [ __ ] to you right think it's right
1:14:02to go pick up a weapon or or take it to
1:14:04the streams
1:14:05and and one of the things the Supreme
1:14:07Court has taught us uh since Robert
1:14:09versus Simmons was that
1:14:12is a brain
1:14:14a part of adolescent brains that don't
1:14:16develop until they're 25. yeah the
1:14:19brains develop until you're 25 years old
1:14:21and he says that part of the brain is
1:14:23the part that teaches you consequences
1:14:26right you don't really get it until you
1:14:2825. so we know that a lot of adolescents
1:14:31do dumb [ __ ] we know that like this is
1:14:33just known
1:14:36on that
1:14:37so why don't we knowing that
1:14:41um teach them all let them understand
1:14:43and look man like this is what
1:14:45statistics show science fools so let me
1:14:49help you understand what your brain
1:14:50hasn't developed yet
1:14:52right let me help you try to get it to
1:14:54save you
1:14:55from sitting in that prison cell or to
1:14:58save you from going out there and
1:14:59committing the dumb crime to save you
1:15:01from thinking it's cool to be amongst
1:15:04what you consider to be Pez right that's
1:15:06doing dumb stuff right let me help you
1:15:08let me facilitate you through this to
1:15:10give you a better life and I think if we
1:15:13start doing that work towards prevention
1:15:17we work towards prevention
1:15:19right as opposed to just building the
1:15:22prison industrial complex because of our
1:15:24goal is Public Safety right
1:15:26then why not catch kids when they're
1:15:28young right and give it at the roots
1:15:31yeah
1:15:38[Music]
1:15:41you might be working towards that as a
1:15:42society right Society you know and I
1:15:46think it's gonna happen eventually but
1:15:48you know how a bureaucracy does it takes
1:15:49time yeah we've um where I'm at
1:15:52personally we've got a program we've got
1:15:54several programs I'm actually very proud
1:15:56of but um one is pal which is a boxing
1:16:00thing
1:16:01um you know and we don't just close it
1:16:03off to to only like the most severe
1:16:06troubled use we we can't allow anybody
1:16:10um which is great but um we try to focus
1:16:12the officers we try to get them to
1:16:14recommend like hey this is this is a we
1:16:18need to get him in otherwise he's too
1:16:20far gone we got a program with the NFL
1:16:22and I cannot oh I cannot remember the
1:16:24name of it off top of my head
1:16:26um I was actually a part of this one
1:16:28where
1:16:30um a bunch of uh
1:16:32cops we come in dressed plain like just
1:16:35like I would I'm a Star Wars nerd if you
1:16:37can't tell
1:16:38um so I had all my Star Wars stuff on uh
1:16:41just being a dork you know like I am
1:16:43anyway and uh we go there and we we sit
1:16:47with these high school kids
1:16:49um some freshmen some seniors are just
1:16:51kind of sprinkled in there and the first
1:16:54day is just
1:16:56meeting them talking to them they have
1:16:58no idea We're Cops
1:17:00but they do know that this has something
1:17:02to do with the NFL and so they're
1:17:04they're into it and they're enjoying it
1:17:06they're they're guards down and we find
1:17:09ways to connect like you know like me I
1:17:11grew up in Flint Michigan so
1:17:13um grew up you know my mom and dad
1:17:16didn't marry you know I kind of grew up
1:17:18in that type of neighborhood
1:17:20um Flint is rough I don't know if you've
1:17:22heard of Flint at all but Flint a little
1:17:24rough area in Michigan uh don't drink
1:17:26the water guys so
1:17:29um
1:17:29you know it I had a rough go a little
1:17:32bit but I made it and uh so we connected
1:17:35you know connected and um
1:17:37then the next day we come in same thing
1:17:39first half of the day we're playing
1:17:42games and and getting to know each other
1:17:44and you know I I'm a like I will roast
1:17:47you like that's my thing I roast
1:17:49everybody like you better be quick
1:17:51because when I was I was a little kid so
1:17:55I I was like Kevin Hart I had to know
1:17:57how to use my mouth and run those are
1:17:59the only two things I had so
1:18:01um
1:18:02I get you know we get going and then
1:18:04it's time for the big reveal these NFL
1:18:06players come in and they talk and
1:18:08they're like you know you know telling
1:18:10them how to
1:18:11behave and follow Sports and and and
1:18:14follow the right path stay out away from
1:18:16some of this [ __ ] that you've seen
1:18:18in the streets and then
1:18:20um they're like we got some guys for you
1:18:21to talk to about it and then we all come
1:18:23in that they've been working with the
1:18:25last two days
1:18:27um and uh Dr Harper shout out to you uh
1:18:30he we all come in and we're in uniform
1:18:31full uniform and you just see their jaws
1:18:34drop like I've been hanging out and
1:18:36thinking that this cop was cool and I'm
1:18:39sitting there and I like you know as
1:18:40soon as I walk up I'm hey I'm off to
1:18:42Levine you know I work here I've done
1:18:44this I've done that and uh and I look at
1:18:46my group of boys that I was hanging with
1:18:49and I'm like and you know I was like and
1:18:51still your mama like you know I like
1:18:52stuff it's still ragging on them so
1:18:54they're like oh my God like so it kind
1:18:56of opens their eyes to see you know cops
1:18:59are are people and and I can relate like
1:19:02they understood like I opened up to them
1:19:05I was honest told them the whole truth
1:19:07about my upbringing and they like it it
1:19:10helped win them over or with police and
1:19:14because there is a distrust in in these
1:19:17you know social economic deprived places
1:19:21that that the police like you said the
1:19:23police presence is heavier why is it
1:19:25heavier well because that's where the
1:19:26crimes are we follow where the crime
1:19:28goes there's a rich white neighborhood
1:19:30there's not a lot of crime going on so
1:19:32you're not going to see as many cops
1:19:34um so it's just and you try to now now
1:19:38you've got common ground and you can so
1:19:40it's a really good program so that's
1:19:42kind of the point I was getting to is
1:19:43these programs out there other officers
1:19:45if you're listening to this like 90 of
1:19:47my audience is First Responders so I
1:19:50want them to hear if you've never heard
1:19:51of pal and you've never look into the
1:19:53NFL
1:19:54um Community program I cannot think I
1:19:56think it's called score
1:19:58I think I can't remember but um look
1:20:01into those types of things and then
1:20:02obviously what Derek what you got going
1:20:04on man I mean with with Innocence
1:20:08Project
1:20:09um with I'm excited for this big release
1:20:11thing that you got going on I kind of
1:20:13want it when you do that will you at
1:20:14least let me know and I can put
1:20:16something out about it yeah
1:20:22oh yeah let me show that off I'm glad
1:20:24you brought that up
1:20:33very good work three years in the last
1:20:36year
1:20:38um you have over 100 cases really
1:20:42so I mean you know we work we work just
1:20:45the case I was talking about announcing
1:20:47Crews uh with a cop
1:20:49uh witness the murder and and the rest
1:20:52of the right guy
1:20:53and some of those improvements became
1:20:55the wrong guy locked up Vincent Simmons
1:20:57is a guy who lives actually in Texas
1:21:00Texas now we got him out uh Valentine's
1:21:04Day
1:21:05um he did 44 years uh in Louisiana
1:21:09uh we got a massage and he lives in
1:21:12Houston now are you getting these guys
1:21:14paid too not just getting them out but
1:21:15getting them paid
1:21:21Vincent Simmons we definitely we
1:21:22definitely sue the hell out of the
1:21:23states that we're all being convicted
1:21:25why why does it take a lawsuit
1:21:29you know I would think that there would
1:21:30be an automatic oh [ __ ] he was just
1:21:33exonerated we [ __ ] up
1:21:35at least here's this and then if a
1:21:38lawsuit needs to be done after because
1:21:40it's not enough okay I get that but
1:21:43you're the hardest part is that you got
1:21:45to go to another trial like these guys
1:21:47was tried and convicted and later on
1:21:51when it was found innocent
1:21:53you got to take these guys to another
1:21:55trial with a different set of city
1:21:58county or state officials is Santa
1:22:01they're guilty again right so the
1:22:04traumatic effect of that right it's just
1:22:07it's just it's just insane I agree with
1:22:09you they should be immediate
1:22:11conversation
1:22:16um they should really really
1:22:18um just give them something
1:22:20so they can get his life back together
1:22:22so we got a new website coming up soon
1:22:24we're not we're not yeah your website uh
1:22:29yeah okay I'm a pretty honest guy he
1:22:31could it could use a facelift oh
1:22:34it's a little old school
1:22:40that's good
1:22:41um yeah because I and we talked about
1:22:43this right at the beginning like part of
1:22:46the problem with the system is when we
1:22:48[ __ ] up we still got that we're dragging
1:22:52our feet like
1:22:54exonerated that is a different story
1:22:56guys if you're not like educate yourself
1:22:59on the difference between a technicality
1:23:01and exoneration there is a big
1:23:03difference okay we're talking about
1:23:05somebody that was found innocent based
1:23:07on some like DNA evidence that's a big
1:23:10one that we're getting a lot of things
1:23:12overturned like this person was found
1:23:14not only that they weren't the person
1:23:16that the DNA evidence show it was this
1:23:19other person
1:23:20that's a huge one so
1:23:23um if you are just listening to the
1:23:26podcast I am showing uh it's called
1:23:28wrongly wrongfully convicted dot info
1:23:31that's the website we're talking about
1:23:33so we're just kind of looking over it
1:23:35um and uh Derek's a part of that
1:23:38um and I haven't mentioned it yet but
1:23:40Derek's Instagram is top-notch illegal
1:23:42so check him out on Instagram at Top
1:23:44Notch legal
1:23:46and um what else is that all I got for
1:23:49you there yeah okay that's all I got for
1:23:50you
1:23:51um and then yeah obviously Derek's whole
1:23:54story but um yeah sir I'm glad we showed
1:23:57that um there are several articles now
1:23:59that I'm thinking about it uh
1:24:02of Derek Derek's I got his um linked
1:24:05tree up here I think that's what it's
1:24:07called right yeah
1:24:10I got his link tree up on the side of
1:24:12the thing here um his it's at Derek
1:24:14Hamilton that's his link tree
1:24:16so you can check that out
1:24:19um what else have we got oh and then his
1:24:21New York Times uh article so that's the
1:24:24next part I want to get to Derek so you
1:24:25do this time you you get yourself out of
1:24:29prison which is phenomenal and just the
1:24:32fact that and this is why I'm so uh
1:24:35in awe of Aaron Aaron got can be 53-year
1:24:39sentence and the kid he
1:24:42um exhausted all his Appeals and then
1:24:46his attorney recommended to him to write
1:24:50up something
1:24:51and send it to the the district attorney
1:24:54the one that was and it's not even the
1:24:57same district attorney that he had dealt
1:24:58with so he sent it and it was basically
1:25:01an appeal in itself and he that's how he
1:25:04won he he got himself out so um but
1:25:08Derek that's what you did you you got
1:25:10your yourself out I would like to come
1:25:13in there for that because a lot of times
1:25:15you know
1:25:16people the fact that he was able to
1:25:18Offerly write something uh that the
1:25:20prosecutor would accept and agree to
1:25:23um is really astonishing uh in my
1:25:26situation
1:25:28um there was no laws in New York state
1:25:30that recognized the innocent person
1:25:32right to file post-conviction motions
1:25:35and because they didn't have that
1:25:39uh what happened was I had to create it
1:25:43um so after all my appeals was exhausted
1:25:45and several post-conviction motions was
1:25:47denied I wrote a new post-conviction
1:25:50motion and I argued that reasonable
1:25:54people conscious would be shocked to
1:25:56learn
1:25:57that the system would treat me this way
1:25:59despite all this evidence that I had
1:26:01that I was innocent that they was just
1:26:03stronger than the garbage because of
1:26:05procedure reasons because there was no
1:26:07mechanism in New York state that
1:26:10mandated the court to recognize
1:26:12innocence claims and to give innocent
1:26:14people herons
1:26:15uh luckily for me
1:26:18um
1:26:18the parole board
1:26:20not the courts the parole board looked
1:26:23at the evidence
1:26:25um and they said look young man we do
1:26:26agree with you that there's a lot of
1:26:29evidence here that establish that you're
1:26:31innocent but we can't determine the
1:26:34Innocence only we can determine should
1:26:36you be paroled or not then based on that
1:26:38evidence of Innocence we're going to
1:26:40parole you uh and we're going to wish
1:26:42you luck
1:26:43in going out there and and
1:26:46um
1:26:47proven your innocence so I was paroding
1:26:50in 2011.
1:26:52um and while I was paroled
1:26:54my litigations from the Motions Pro say
1:26:57that I had made was pendant
1:26:59that I had road to the attorney by the
1:27:01name of Edelstein Grossman Jonathan
1:27:03Miller Senior Bobby Grossman and I said
1:27:05look man all I got is I think 3 500 or
1:27:081500 whatever I had in my conversation
1:27:11I was like look man I'll give you guys
1:27:13this money if you just represent me on
1:27:17this motion
1:27:19and John wrote back and he said look I
1:27:21can't take your emotion your money that
1:27:23your motion was done great that you
1:27:25argued everything you're supposed to
1:27:27argue what I will do
1:27:28because I write a Friends of the Court
1:27:30brief but I miss Curry brief to the
1:27:32courts and tell them that they should
1:27:34give you a hearing what is it called
1:27:36it's the Amish Curry brief in Latin
1:27:38terms in English is called the Friend of
1:27:40the Court so he wrote as a lawyer and a
1:27:45Friend of the Court he told the court
1:27:47that the law mandated that they give me
1:27:50a hearing well that was evidence that I
1:27:52had that I was innocent uh when the
1:27:54court denied it he said you know what
1:27:57I will take your case to the Appellate
1:27:59Division for free
1:28:00that you don't have to pay me you did
1:28:02all the work that you had to do
1:28:04and luckily for us we won the appeal uh
1:28:08and your television rule for the first
1:28:09time in New York history
1:28:11the innocent people had to have a
1:28:13hearing and the court must hear all the
1:28:15evidence once and for all and make a
1:28:18determination and if you find that the
1:28:21evidence proves the innocent you can't
1:28:23reach out
1:28:24because no jury can convict an innocent
1:28:26person
1:28:27so I mean that changed a little New York
1:28:29state it opened the door for so many
1:28:31people people versus Hamilton in the
1:28:34citation of my case and and it got me
1:28:36exonerated because once the state court
1:28:39knew that they had to hear all the
1:28:41evidence and all the evidence proved
1:28:44that I was innocent uh the ballistics
1:28:46evidence group I was innocent
1:28:47eyewitnesses prove I was innocent all
1:28:49the stuff that driven in here detective
1:28:50testimony uh all this stuff uh
1:28:53eyewitness was police officers who was
1:28:55present with me in New Haven Connecticut
1:28:57when the murder happened
1:28:58uh never testified before the court so I
1:29:01mean
1:29:02they changed the Dynamics of everything
1:29:04but
1:29:06it was only because I would file motion
1:29:09after motion Pro Se motion after motion
1:29:11because I know I was right uh the courts
1:29:15was making decisions I was wrong it was
1:29:17my obligation to set the record straight
1:29:19because if I didn't then the record
1:29:21would be left off as the courts left
1:29:24which was totally an awful and accurate
1:29:26uh so for me it was just making sure
1:29:29that I got the last word and that the
1:29:33last word was the truth right I couldn't
1:29:35let them distort the truth because in
1:29:38order to keep you in prison if you're
1:29:39innocent they have to distort the truth
1:29:41right they tell the truth you get out
1:29:44so you have to be persistent
1:29:47um despite what the the law says
1:29:49sometimes you have to create new law
1:29:51sometimes you have to say the Lord as it
1:29:53now is this is unconstitutional and I
1:29:56did that a lot but I went to the parole
1:29:58board I argued with them for two years I
1:30:00said because your parole board is
1:30:02designed to deal with guilty people
1:30:05how about
1:30:06all these Innocence Project cases where
1:30:09guys is being exonerated every day right
1:30:12so we know that there's innocent people
1:30:13in prison that don't have DNA right if
1:30:16you've got all these innocent people how
1:30:18many people that don't have it what I
1:30:20want they don't have DNA in my case and
1:30:22I'm innocent so I had to make them you
1:30:25know first believe
1:30:26that there's innocent people in prison
1:30:28and second look at the evidence because
1:30:31for two years they didn't want to hit
1:30:32evidence that I was
1:30:38and I'm saying well you want me to admit
1:30:41did I killed somebody you want me to
1:30:44show remarks for something I didn't do
1:30:46right you putting the burden on me that
1:30:49shouldn't be here because I didn't do
1:30:50this
1:30:51so you have the power I had to tell them
1:30:54with a power line I had to thank the
1:30:55Lord to them let's get this this
1:30:56particular statue gives you the power to
1:30:59do this and then I have to compel a
1:31:01filing civil rights complaints and stuff
1:31:03like that against the robot to compel
1:31:06and to enjoying them and do acts uh join
1:31:08the problem by law so you know for
1:31:11the average Layman or an uneducated
1:31:14person this is the task that can't be
1:31:16done
1:31:17I mean I mean this is a task and here's
1:31:20if you I don't know if you're watching
1:31:21but this is what school is about this is
1:31:23what you know my biggest weapon was the
1:31:26fact that I went to public school to
1:31:27have a good reading comprehension right
1:31:30in prison I was it was bigger than any
1:31:32physical component I ever had
1:31:36that I can think you know and that's why
1:31:38uh on the position I met
1:31:41dude how how in 20 plus years like
1:31:47like that's the hardest part for me to
1:31:49wrap my mind is this is where I get
1:31:50choked up is I'm just sitting there
1:31:51thinking like I would have gave up after
1:31:53five years like I don't even know what
1:31:55the number is but
1:31:57when I know everybody this episode of
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1:32:16equipment this veteran owned business is
1:32:18located at 5025 Saunders Suite 103 Fort
1:32:21Worth Texas 76119 you can call them at
1:32:26682-304-0363 and you can find them
1:32:28online at
1:32:29www.hrh combatarms.com that's
1:32:32www.hrh combatarms.com it has a
1:32:36opportunity to help me is looking at me
1:32:40as a guilty person
1:32:42how do you keep the mentality to keep
1:32:46pushing like I would get I I I'm maybe
1:32:50I'm maybe I'm not giving myself enough
1:32:52credit because I'm not in your position
1:32:54I can never actually comprehend it
1:32:57but how do you keep the mindset that
1:33:00[ __ ] you guys I'm innocent and this is
1:33:03it
1:33:04what do you know it's all about going
1:33:05how you raise
1:33:07uh you know culturally for me
1:33:09um you know I was raised in the
1:33:11environment that always push you to
1:33:13fight back and no matter what situation
1:33:15he was in and spiritually uh believing
1:33:18in something hiding you you know bigger
1:33:21than you crashing home and holding on to
1:33:22that when everything else goes
1:33:25um but
1:33:27therapeutic for me in Reading law books
1:33:29right and knowing that I was right and
1:33:32knowing that when I go before the court
1:33:34the judge even said I was right right
1:33:36for a whole year he said I can't get
1:33:38this goddamn job let alone 15 or 25
1:33:41years and throughout the whole
1:33:42post-conviction process he would yell at
1:33:45the prosecutor scream at the prosecutor
1:33:47and say I can let this guy go right now
1:33:49and you can do nothing about it we all
1:33:51know that this witness never saw the
1:33:53crime so it's it's those moments in
1:33:56which you almost out I mean what you got
1:33:58to judge yelling and screaming and you
1:34:01know that you was almost out
1:34:04um and you keep fighting because you
1:34:05know that you know you're hoping or
1:34:07you're praying uh that there'd be
1:34:09somebody to listen the judge said that
1:34:12oh throughout this is why the parole
1:34:14board let me go I showed them all the
1:34:16instances in which the judge admitted
1:34:18that I was innocent it was the Judgment
1:34:20that the soul witness against me lied
1:34:22was the judge admitted that had the jury
1:34:23heard that evidence I've been acquitted
1:34:25this is what was able to look at and see
1:34:28and say you know crazy how did this
1:34:31happen you know how did the system keep
1:34:33this guy in here 27 years and that's
1:34:36going to be court record yeah right and
1:34:38that's what I use I gave them all the
1:34:40court records I said these evidence
1:34:42proves that I didn't commit this murder
1:34:44this evidence proved that they got it
1:34:46wrong yet and still I'm here because the
1:34:48judge just didn't have the balls to let
1:34:50me go
1:34:51um and that was a problem so you know
1:34:53and we talk about
1:34:55um judges we talked about that earlier
1:34:57all right I mean
1:34:59and and in Vincent Simmons case another
1:35:01one 44 years the judge admitted that
1:35:05Vincent's constitutional rights was
1:35:07violated we have to compel the judge to
1:35:09let Vincent God we had to go to CBS and
1:35:11put him on TV and embarrass them and you
1:35:14know and this is the things you have to
1:35:16do sometimes because of the political
1:35:18system the way it is you know it's
1:35:20designed to be you know everybody know
1:35:22each other the good old boy system if
1:35:24they tell a judge you a bad person
1:35:26if they tell the judge judge I don't
1:35:28think you should do that
1:35:30I don't think you should let this guy go
1:35:31he's going home to kill somebody's judge
1:35:34I'm telling you that judge is listening
1:35:36to a prosecutor
1:35:37you know he listened why would the
1:35:39prosecutor lie why are they coming in
1:35:41and make this up you know in my case the
1:35:44first thing I did
1:35:45when we was talking to prosecutors I
1:35:48said look
1:35:49before we start negotiating
1:35:52on my innocence
1:35:53I want y'all to First admit to July
1:35:56when you said I had a large-scale drug
1:35:58organization that did all these violent
1:36:00things in my community and they admitted
1:36:02it they said we lied
1:36:04we did lie to the judge and so that was
1:36:07the
1:36:07starting point of good negotiation
1:36:10because they refused that I was walking
1:36:12out of the room and I told him about it
1:36:13you gotta you know we gonna do right you
1:36:16got to start out there being honest and
1:36:18admitting that you made a mistake and
1:36:19they did that so you know it's just
1:36:22system is perfect we're not perfect but
1:36:25as we continue to work on making it
1:36:27better and making ourselves better
1:36:30um you know I think that that we can
1:36:32make a better system for me
1:36:34studying law
1:36:36therapeutic right it was really
1:36:39therapeutic New York has little
1:36:40libraries a lot of states don't I was
1:36:43able to get legal books every single day
1:36:45I was able to study I was able to make
1:36:48sure that whenever I went to court that
1:36:50I was the smartest person in that room
1:36:53that I knew my case better than anybody
1:36:54else I know the procedures that related
1:36:56to my case better than anybody else and
1:36:59no matter what they did I wanted to make
1:37:01sure that transcript
1:37:03that record indicated that I was being
1:37:06railroad right I had to come out that
1:37:08way because that's what was going on
1:37:11every single time
1:37:13man that dude I I just I can't I I'm
1:37:18hoping this is what I would like to see
1:37:20in the future I'm still in the system
1:37:23you know I'm still a part of the system
1:37:25so for me
1:37:27um I'm also an instructor like I'm a
1:37:29Texas certified instructor you know I
1:37:31teach I do all that stuff
1:37:33and I would love to just uh stay in
1:37:37contact with you
1:37:39um and you can keep pointing things out
1:37:42to me because I'm in the I'm in the
1:37:45Wheelhouse man and if if there's stuff
1:37:47that can be cut off at the pass I'd love
1:37:50to cut it off now like if there's
1:37:52something you know that develops because
1:37:53policing is always changing
1:37:55um and you know we got body cameras now
1:37:58I'm sure something's going to develop
1:37:59where a rule needs to be changed or
1:38:01altered or whatever it is but
1:38:03um somebody like you that's advocating
1:38:05for the other side if somebody like me
1:38:07who's advocating for the side that's
1:38:09trying to put people away
1:38:11um you know uh if we can work together
1:38:14like that's the whole point of my
1:38:15podcast is like I'm trying to bridge
1:38:17these gaps there's no reason it's not US
1:38:19versus them it's not Derek versus Levine
1:38:22like we need to work together to to
1:38:24improve things and that's like like you
1:38:26said it's a team effort all around well
1:38:29I'll tell you something that that's
1:38:30being developed I think California is
1:38:32the first
1:38:36appreciate me on
1:38:37a month ago
1:38:39got some law in California with some
1:38:43pilot program and we're still licensing
1:38:46police officers right so that you get a
1:38:50license as you would get in any other
1:38:52field of work
1:38:54and if you do some things uh it violates
1:38:59the rules they take your license away
1:39:02right and I don't know how long it will
1:39:04but Barry was giving me a little bit of
1:39:07background on it and he was like look
1:39:08this is where we headed at in this
1:39:11country right I don't know how far it's
1:39:13going to go but the pilot program out
1:39:15there and
1:39:17to me
1:39:18right it makes sense right it makes
1:39:21sense because everything in this look
1:39:23you take off so what's the difference if
1:39:25you take it over from your license but I
1:39:27think they regulated more uh by the
1:39:31license they got databases now a lot of
1:39:33these big cities that if you put a cop
1:39:35name in it shows how many times he was
1:39:38sold how many times he disciplined how
1:39:41many times he was accused of this and
1:39:43the lawyers is sharing it how many times
1:39:45he's supposed to behind the court or
1:39:46whatever it may be
1:39:47but they're saying I have the database
1:39:50and have no ability to discipline means
1:39:54nothing
1:39:55so California going a step further and
1:39:58creating licenses and they said if you
1:40:00get any of these offenses we can pull
1:40:02your license into you okay so it may be
1:40:04get therapy or you get counseling or you
1:40:07get reprimanded or you get suspended it
1:40:09doesn't mean you lose your actual job it
1:40:12just means your license may be suspended
1:40:14the same way they do lawyers
1:40:16right and we see with how far that goes
1:40:19but I know there's some type of pilot
1:40:21program they're doing in California
1:40:23Barry was telling me
1:40:25um but again
1:40:27you know we talking about cops
1:40:30how about prosecutors about prosecutors
1:40:33right you make the cop before God right
1:40:37let's just look at it so if you're gonna
1:40:38license them and you're gonna pull their
1:40:40license they say well you know we could
1:40:42we could pull a prosecutor license but
1:40:44when you do it
1:40:45right you can but when is it done never
1:40:48seen it whatever is it done so thank you
1:40:51for having me um I definitely look
1:40:53forward to to joining you anytime you
1:40:56want me I will come back I want to make
1:40:58announce uh the law school we're going
1:41:01to be at and see if Josh would join me
1:41:03to give you some of his wisdom a very
1:41:05smart guy
1:41:06but um and I would thank uh you know law
1:41:09enforcement man in Texas man all you
1:41:11guys that work with you in law
1:41:12enforcement around the country that's
1:41:14doing the right thing man I want you
1:41:16guys to know that I support you all the
1:41:18First Responders I want you guys know
1:41:20that I support you that when we was
1:41:22having cold for New York City I was out
1:41:24feeding First Responders and that's on
1:41:26our website too when you look at it uh
1:41:29I'm definitely supportive of all you
1:41:30guys I'm not anti police I'm not an
1:41:34anti-prosecutor anti-judges or
1:41:36anti-first responders we're all human
1:41:38beings we on this fight to make America
1:41:40great let's do what we got to do Amen
1:41:43brother amen well I appreciate you being
1:41:46on man and uh like I said I just I'm so
1:41:49excited for the next chapter in your
1:41:51life uh I don't want to dwell on
1:41:54obviously the bad parts in the in the
1:41:56past but hell you're doing the damn
1:41:58thing now you're doing good stuff
1:42:00um you're helping out other people that
1:42:02were in your shoes and uh I love it man
1:42:04I'm just glad I'm glad you agreed to be
1:42:06on here and share your message
1:42:09and uh until you gotta reach out man I
1:42:11don't want to help him on that
1:42:12conviction I got you [ __ ] yourself bro
1:42:14[Music]
1:42:18all right

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