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23/04/2024: Thaçi et al, Trial hearing (reclassified) — Transcript

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0:10all rise.
0:23>> The customer specialist chambers is now
0:25in session.
0:26>> Be seated.
0:49Madam court officer, please call the
0:51case.
0:53Good morning, your honors. This is the
0:54file number KCBC 20206. The specialist
0:57prosecutor versus Hashimi Kaji Rejimi
1:01and Jakob Castiki. Thank you.
1:06Well, as usual, we have a preliminary
1:08matter to deal with this morning
1:11before we begin.
1:14Uh on April 4th at transcript page 14398
1:19line 17 to page 14400 line two, the
1:23panel ordered that waiverss filed with a
1:25request from an accused be sent or or
1:29a request from an accused to be absent
1:31from the courtroom during trial be
1:33communicated to the panel no less than
1:3624 hours before the relevant court
1:38session unless circumstances do not
1:40allow.
1:41It has been brought to the panel's
1:43attention that a 24-hour notice has
1:45considerable logistical and financial
1:47consequences. Such consequences can be
1:50avoided if the waivers are communicated
1:5248 hours before the relevant court
1:55session. For this this reason, the panel
1:57envisages amending the dead deadline to
2:00submit waivers to 48 hours. Of course,
2:04we can't cover all kind of contingencies
2:06in an emergency. We are certainly
2:08willing to consider the request and its
2:12necessity
2:13uh but uh on a regular basis we would
2:16like to use the 48 hour uh
2:22notice. Uh would anyone like to be heard
2:25on this request?
2:28We can all live with the 48 hours. I I
2:31realize that's an imposition of some
2:33planning, but uh I hope it'll work.
2:37Since there's no submission, the panel
2:38amends its April 4 order and orders that
2:41waivers filed with a request for an an
2:43accused to be absent from the courtroom
2:45during trial shall, unless circumstances
2:48do not allow, be committed or be
2:50communicated to the panel no later than
2:52two business days, 48 hours before the
2:55relevant court session. For example,
2:57when an accused seeks to be absent from
2:59the courtroom on a Monday, the waiver
3:01shall be communicated to the panel the
3:03preceding Thursday morning. I realize
3:06that's more days, but that allows the
3:08notice to be given to the transport
3:10company prior to the close of business
3:13on Friday. Lastly, the panel recalls
3:16that waivers shall sufficiently state
3:18the reason for the requested absence so
3:21as to provide good cause. The panel will
3:24decide to allow or disallow the request
3:26based on such waiver. This concludes the
3:29panel's oral order.
3:32We'll now continue the hearing of the
3:34evidence of prosecution witness for
3:36W04741.
3:38Madam court officer,
3:40>> before the witness is brought in, can I
3:42just raise one matter? Um, it is with
3:45regard to the excerpt of Mr.
3:47Yakrasnich's book, The Great Turning
3:50Point. I just wanted to confirm that it
3:52is the SPO's preference that the uh
3:54excerpt standard yesterday be added to
3:57P189
3:59which was omitted through Bartable
4:00decision uh F596
4:04and which is the exhibit that currently
4:07contains the higher number of pages from
4:09that book as well as the cover page.
4:12Madame court officer pointed out to the
4:14fact that exhibit P729 contains three
4:18pages from the uh pastric zone section.
4:22However, uh one of those pages is
4:25reducted at the end that does not
4:26contain the excerpts that I uh put to
4:28the witness yesterday. And that's why I
4:31would reiterate that the pages tendered
4:34into evidence uh U0015849
4:39to 8853 for the pastric zone se section
4:44together with the uh U0015
4:488869
4:49to 8873 from the neodyma section be
4:53added to that excerpt that excerpt sorry
4:57that P number that P number P18 89 also
5:00contains the pages immediately after
5:03those that I tendered starting from 88
5:07874 and so for that reason two is a
5:10better choice as an exhibit to contain
5:13the bulk of the excerpts from uh the
5:15book. Thank you.
5:16>> Thank you. I just asked the court
5:18officer is that appropriate and can
5:21handle can be taken care of. All right.
5:22Thank you. So ordered.
5:24>> Thank you your honors.
5:25>> So ordered.
5:31Now, madame court officer or court
5:33usher, please bring the witness in.
5:37We will be in public session. We will
5:39break at 10:00
5:45for just 10 minutes.
6:48Welcome back, witness.
6:52>> Thank you for having me.
6:55>> I remind you to please try to answer the
6:57questions clearly with short sentences.
7:00If you don't understand a question, feel
7:02free to ask council to repeat the
7:03question uh or tell them you don't
7:06understand and they will attempt to
7:07clarify. Also, please remember to try to
7:10indicate the basis of your knowledge of
7:12the facts and circumstances upon which
7:15you will be questioned.
7:18I also remind you that you are still
7:19under an obligation to tell the truth as
7:22stated by you in your solemn
7:23declaration. Please also remember to
7:26speak into the microphone and to wait
7:28five seconds before answering a question
7:32and speak at a slow pace for the
7:34interpreters to catch up. If you feel
7:36the need that need to take a break at
7:38any time, please let us know.
7:41We begin where we continue with the
7:43questions from the prosecution. Madame
7:45prosecutor, you may continue.
7:47>> Thank you, your honors. Good morning,
7:50uh, witnesses.
7:53>> Good morning.
7:56Before uh we continue with today's
7:58questions, there is a date from uh
8:00yesterday's transcript that I would like
8:03to reflect fully on the record. The last
8:07document we discussed was a travel
8:09permit signed by commander colleague. Do
8:12you remember that shukri buua?
8:18>> Oh yes I do.
8:20Now in evidence SP120
8:25with regard to the date uh or the period
8:28of the document you were asked to
8:30clarify you know when that would have
8:33been from and you said that this was at
8:35line 137 uh uh sorry page 137 line 22 of
8:41yesterday provisional transcripts you
8:43said sometime in May. Now, just to
8:46clarify, you meant to refer uh to 1998,
8:49right?
8:52>> Paul,
8:53>> yes.
8:55>> Year as well on the record.
8:58So, now uh witness, I would like to show
9:01you another travel permit. Uh can I
9:03please call up ERN it 03 66 P171
9:11NPU 171A. Uh, and if I can have them
9:16both next to each other on the screen.
9:48Can you now see the document on the
9:51computer? Mr. Cherich.
9:56>> Yes.
9:58>> You were shown this document last week
10:00during the preparation session and you
10:03said you had not seen it before.
10:04Correct.
10:09Second,
10:10>> I have not.
10:12>> That's right. I have not seen it. You
10:15>> were familiar with travel permits for
10:18example in 1998 as you did provide one
10:22yourself to uh to the court from your
10:25battalions. Correct. Your battalions
10:28archives.
10:34Yes, that's correct. I think this is
10:36from the third battalion.
10:39>> So the other says Kosovo liberation army
10:42operational unit Celiku. It is dated the
10:468th of July 1998
10:50and uh there is uh signed by commander
10:54Tigri plus uh signature.
10:59The document gives authorization to
11:00travel along uh the route Kletchka and
11:04back. There's also a first word before
11:07Kletchka that is rendered is translated
11:10as illegible in the uh in the English.
11:15Now with regard to Celico unit uh you
11:18gave evidence that u those units were
11:21under the command of uh Fatmu under
11:24Calico Celico correct and uh okay the
11:27reference is P114.1
11:31page 3572
11:40>> yes
11:41>> with the name or nickname Tigri.
11:48Oh,
11:49>> yes I am.
11:51>> Yes, I knew him.
11:54No, I meant Scander.
11:57>> And he was the commander
12:01>> the commander of the third battalion.
12:05>> The fourth, I'm sorry, the fourth
12:08battalion. I meant to say
12:11>> that is reflected in your evidence. he
12:13was the commander of the fourth
12:14battalion. Um and also you marked the
12:17areas of responsibility of the four
12:20battalions of brigade one to one on a
12:23map which is now at page 20 of the
12:26associated exhibit P 111 uh six. Um now
12:31looking at this document are you may be
12:32able to read the original uh
12:37and have a look at the name that is
12:39indicated. This is the second line where
12:41he says relin
12:43before Klka. You may be able to read
12:47what that point is, what that location
12:49is.
12:54>> I think you might have read it earlier.
13:01>> Can you see what he says in the
13:07victim?
13:15I I can't really see. I can seek
13:19but I can't really make out the other
13:21word
13:23>> to to read the handwriting. Okay. No, no
13:26problem. Um can you tell us where the
13:30where basic Celiku was? This is like at
13:33the bottom line before the date and the
13:37um signature of commander Tigri
13:42Celico where was that
13:46>> inkla
13:50>> does this document reflect your evidence
13:53uh again for reference P 1115.2 two
13:56pages 3537
13:59that soldiers needed permission to move
14:02around, for example, to move from the
14:04area of battalion 4 to the area of
14:06another battalion.
14:13>> Oh,
14:14>> yes.
14:16Your honor, the SPenders, this document
14:18into evidence as a public exhibit.
14:24>> No objection.
14:28You we will object but on the basis the
14:30witness had never seen this before. He
14:31hasn't authenticated it and asking a
14:33series of leading questions. Just
14:36inviting the witness to read off the
14:37document doesn't do anything to
14:38authenticate it.
14:40>> Exhibit will be admitted
14:43satisfies the parameters of rule 138.
14:51Your honor, the RNN it-3-66171
14:57will be assigned exhibit number P121.
15:03Thank you, honor.
15:09>> Yes, thank you.
15:10>> If I may, my apologies. The
15:11classification is public in the legal.
15:14>> Yes, it is. Thank
15:21Witness, we were talking about the
15:23Celico unit uh and we have from your
15:26statement in evidence that Isakmus Leu
15:28was part of those units under the
15:31command of Fatmir Limai. Uh you and Isak
15:35Muslu became friends in Germany and
15:37traveled together to Kosovo, right? This
15:39is also in your evidence.
15:47Oh
15:47>> yes. Yes.
15:50>> Also testify that isakmus got his
15:54nickname churchy uh P 11114.2
15:58page 3657
16:01because he had a beard and resembled the
16:03Albania Albanian hero and Gerelia
16:06fighter um Churchuli. Right.
16:15Oh yes,
16:17>> collapn
16:19it 0366,
16:22P23 and P23A.
16:26And again, if I can have them uh one
16:28next to the other.
16:34You can call up first the first page.
16:45Goodness. What I'm going to show you now
16:48is a diary that was also shown to you
16:50during um your prepar the preparation
16:53session last week. Um, if we go to the
16:56next page in the uh Albanian,
17:07I believe you said you did not recognize
17:09the handwriting. U right?
17:16>> That's correct.
17:18you commented about some portions of
17:20this notebook, this diary that mention
17:23your name and describe uh events uh
17:26related to um to you.
17:31Um this was a public prosecution exhibit
17:34in the ICT while in my case where Isak
17:36Muslio was um co-acused. Now can we move
17:40to page 11 of the original document? The
17:43RAN is U003
17:472630 and to page 4 of the English
17:52translation
17:57when as you see already on your screen
18:00that portion of the notebook the heading
18:03on top says a delayed diary.
18:07Now I understand the handwriting is not
18:11uh very easy to read. However, if you
18:14try to follow on the original while I
18:18read uh the excerpt from the English,
18:21you will also receive interpretation and
18:23that will facilitate your uh
18:25understanding.
18:29So, I will start reading from
18:33uh this was page four of the English
18:35translation. if it can be um if you can
18:39court officer can please scroll down the
18:41English document so that the the portion
18:43a delayed diary is visible fully. Okay.
18:45Thank you. Yes. Um witness listen to uh
18:49the part that I'll read as I will have
18:51some questions for you.
18:54Having penetrated in the territory of
18:56the Kosu Okosovo from Albania somewhere
19:00near the heels of Konushe village, three
19:04UK members came in order to take us in
19:07their responsibility.
19:10A person nicknamed Ocha
19:13was leading the way to Danita.
19:16We turned illegible above illegible on
19:21the right side and in the evening we
19:23came down the hill and reached the
19:26drainy bridge.
19:28We proceeded towards the asphalt road
19:31leading to
19:33uh Chamanica.
19:36Having passed one
19:39an illegible word where the Serb police
19:41checkpoint was located just behind again
19:45illegible. We proceeded with the journey
19:48and arrived near a workshop where
19:53illegible were working.
19:56We asked for food and we drank some
19:58water. We then asked the owner to help
20:01us find the means of transport.
20:04We took allegible to Costtov and
20:07proceeded towards Kishan. We were
20:10heading in the direction of Liots
20:13near a station on the greeny bridge.
20:18Afett twisted his leg and we had to take
20:21him to the doctor once we arrived in
20:24Liot.
20:32>> Yes, correct. I remember
20:36>> remember
20:41>> he has described the route we used to
20:44get toots and I remember our fat hurt
20:46his leg and that there was a house where
20:51there were doctors and uh they looked
20:53after him.
20:55So let me summarize. Does this reflect
20:58how your trip to Likovs um once you
21:02enter Kosovo from Albania was?
21:05>> Yes.
21:07>> Well, yes.
21:09>> March and the beginning of April 1998.
21:11Is that correct?
21:15>> That's correct.
21:18>> Now, if I remember correctly, you also
21:20gave evidence that the guy named Oja was
21:23escorting you.
21:25Correct.
21:27>> Yes.
21:34>> His name is not the was not his surname
21:38by the way.
21:40>> Absolutely. Uh can we please move to the
21:43next page only for the English
21:44translation and if we can remain on the
21:47same page for the uh Albanian.
21:51So, witness, I'll continue reading.
21:54The doctor uh put his leg, Afett's leg.
21:59We were talking about Afett being
22:01injured uh in plaster. Until then, we
22:06used to call him with the nickname
22:08Castriot. But from that moment, comrades
22:11change it and started calling him with
22:14the nickname Chopo.
22:19>> Correct.
22:21consistent with your recollection and
22:24>> yes
22:26>> this nickname or got his nickname.
22:32>> Oh yes it is.
22:35>> What was Afett's full name?
22:40>> A bilal.
22:41>> A bilal.
22:47Can we please move to the next page uh
22:50of the original document page 12 marked
22:53with the RNAU 0032631.
22:57I'll continue from the same page in the
22:59English page five.
23:05The following day we went out in the
23:08terrain and the psychological, physical
23:11and tactical training started right
23:13away.
23:15Only a few days later, about three or
23:18four days later, myself and Ramse Aka um
23:22Luan got designated tasks in the area of
23:27Silak and
23:30then something illeible.
23:33On that night,
23:35the so-called commander Telu Fatmir Limi
23:39came and picked us up. Together with
23:42Chelu, we went to Kletchka where we came
23:46across six or seven young men with masks
23:49who were uh Yuchik members.
23:52They greeted us and when they found out
23:55who we were, they took off their masks
23:58and continued the journey uh with us.
24:06Is this part also consistent with your
24:09recollection of those day days?
24:14>> Yes, it is because we took this journey
24:18together as it is. I cannot remember the
24:21ones we met but the journey was like
24:24this with Fatmir.
24:27>> And who else was with you uh on that
24:29journey?
24:33There was also a soldier Sadik Sh and he
24:38was with Fat Lima.
24:40>> And is this describing the journey
24:42together with Fatm Limal that you took
24:45with Isak Musl?
24:49>> Yes.
24:51>> Um I'll read a couple more lines. We
24:54entered and this is kind of the middle
24:56of the page in the English. We entered
25:00and there for the first time I met with
25:02commander Ismat Jas Jashari Kumanova. He
25:06was illegible because he was wounded on
25:10both his legs.
25:12Do you remember on that journey meeting
25:15um his met Jashari
25:19>> po?
25:20>> Yes I do. I remember that he had been
25:22wounded in one leg I thought rather than
25:25two but yes I do remember. Okay, I will
25:29now skip some lines and continue reading
25:31from a few lines down the page. And for
25:35the original, if we can uh move to the
25:38next page, uh page 13.
25:47So in the English, I'll continue. Yes.
25:52one
25:55one or two days later, myself and
25:59Commander Luan Rameitz Cherichi were
26:01assigned
26:03designated tasks
26:07in the village of um Stemier
26:11Municipality.
26:13It's when I went home for the first time
26:16after two years.
26:18It is worth mentioning the fact that
26:20when we met with Ismmetari,
26:23he addressed me with the following
26:25words. This nickname illegible which I
26:28had been called by my friends for almost
26:31two years and which Luan gave me is not
26:35for you. Congratulations on your or new
26:39on your new nickname Church because you
26:42look like Churches Topuli anyways. I
26:46smiled and said, "Thank you. I can carry
26:50it, but I fear this name is too big for
26:53me."
26:57>> Witness, is this consistent with your
26:59recollection of how is Muslim?
27:03>> Yes.
27:06>> Oh, propos.
27:08>> Yes. The proposal came from Miss Matia.
27:12Uh I didn't hear any other words or at
27:14least I do not recall that but I
27:16remember that uh ismat put forward this
27:19proposal that he should have um his
27:22nickname as churches.
27:25Okay.
27:30Now can we please move um well I I'll
27:33read the very first line in the English.
27:34We set off from Kretchka and arrived in
27:37Gunkat. And can we now move to the next
27:40p page in the English? Thank you.
27:43uh in Gungat village in the evening. We
27:46arrived in Farat's house. He was Luan's
27:50brother-in-law. They received us well. A
27:54night later, we wanted to penetrate into
27:56Chaffi Dules in the direction of Grace
28:00village. We arrived in Blat village and
28:04stayed at Ferrat's brother-in-law for
28:07several hours.
28:10When we wanted to set off for DULE, as
28:12soon as we came out in the yard, firing
28:16from different weapons began. It was
28:19coming from DLE.
28:21We did not know what to do since we had
28:23no idea was firing and what was going
28:26on. We then decided to go to Luan's
28:29house.
28:34Again, is this consistent with your
28:35recollection?
28:38shot. So this is Dhal the village where
28:42there was firing it's called Dhal
28:45whereas the village we stayed in and in
28:48Farad's place
28:50so my sister was there so um his she's
28:55married to him but u basically we were
28:57at my sister's he was my brother-in-law
29:00but the firing took place in Dhul and
29:02then we continued our journey to Greal
29:06to where my village where I
29:09That's correct. Basically,
29:12>> who was um what was far's last name? You
29:14said already who was
29:16>> Farah
29:20position in the K at that time.
29:24>> Yeah. No.
29:29>> After you decided to go to your house,
29:36>> we went to my house and then we went to
29:39Isak's home just as it's been written
29:42there as you can see.
29:44>> Okay. Can we now go back to page one of
29:46the English and uh page three of the
29:49original which is marked with the RN
29:52U0032622
30:00uh witness. You see there are here on
30:02this page the uh two entries which are
30:04dated.
30:06The first is 26 February 1999. The
30:10second five March 1999. Now if we can go
30:15uh all the way down to the uh original
30:18and also the uh yes also the English
30:22witness. Can you please look at the last
30:25two lines of the page of the original
30:28document?
30:30The very last two lines.
30:51I can't make it out
30:55>> the original
31:00all the way down.
31:09something about the brigade the base but
31:11I'm unable to read it
31:16>> read is that um
31:20>> there was there the name churches
31:22appeared
31:25and I just wanted to confirm with you
31:26that that's still is
31:33>> May I ask council to point out in the
31:36English where where chips cheese appears
31:38Yes. Um, so,
31:42so that would be page one of the
31:44English.
31:50If we go
31:53up,
32:06there was
32:08If we can scroll down
32:20maybe the next page I just don't find it
32:24on the screen. Yes. So the um on page
32:29two of the English the line at the end
32:32of the first paragraph and then it says
32:34churches a couple of times
32:37line five
32:39line eight as for me churches this is
32:42abnormal. Now this should be uh in the
32:46in page five of the original U0032624
32:53the next page please.
32:57And at the very bottom
33:03if you can scroll it all the way down
33:05but it is visible already. Yes. So
33:08witness if you look at you know in
33:10correspondence of the time 19 hours and
33:14a half you do you see the name tesy
33:28the English translation says as for me
33:31churches this is abnormal which is that
33:33last Fine.
33:37>> I just wanted to confirm that church is
33:39is is
33:47>> cooked up.
33:48>> This here
33:50at the end the one before los you mean?
33:55>> Yes.
34:01It shows the time when he has written
34:04that
34:10I don't know
34:14>> it is churches. Yes.
34:19>> The SP turners this diary into evidence
34:22as a public exhibit.
34:31Uh yes your honor
34:34>> microphone please.
34:36>> Yes your honor. The um the objection
34:38from us is not to the pages uh headed a
34:40delayed diary which were gone through
34:42with the witness but to all the other
34:44pages which um appear to relate to an
34:46entirely different point in time between
34:48February and June of 1999.
34:51um and which this witness has not been
34:52asked to comment on in any way um other
34:55than to try and read one word uh on one
34:58of the pages. Um prosecution can't just
35:01dump pages from 1999 into a series of
35:04questions about uh an entirely different
35:06time period.
35:08>> Thank you. Anybody else?
35:09>> We join that objection.
35:12Um yes I think I'm saying the same thing
35:15which is that the entire document can't
35:18go in on the basis of an excerpt which
35:21has been verified by the witness. The
35:23excerpt can go in but not the entire
35:26document or any other narrative it may
35:28contain.
35:33>> I need to join your honor.
35:35>> Um your honor the um the total amount of
35:38pages is nine in the English. The diary
35:41is actually full of a lot of blank pages
35:44and the documents relevance of four
35:48pages out of those nine and the
35:50connection to the witness evident has
35:51been shown. So that's sufficient.
35:54>> Council the question is why do we need
35:55the other pages that haven't been
35:56mentioned?
35:57>> The other pages are also relevant. If
36:00your honor's wishes, I can um list why
36:03the rest of the notebook is relevant and
36:06the assessment on those pages and the
36:09weight will be attributed to that can be
36:11explored in cross- examination and
36:12exactly it's a matter of weight to be
36:14assessed at the end of the um um at the
36:17end of the trial but uh they are
36:19relevant for the prosecution case. And
36:22since the witness has contextualized and
36:24given evidence on a substantial portion
36:26of the notebook, uh we submit that the
36:29requirements from Primma admissibility
36:31have been met.
36:59What is the relevance of these other
37:00pages? How do they relate to the charges
37:03in this case?
37:04>> Yes. The um for example, on page one,
37:06there is information related to the
37:08narrow operational zone and it staff.
37:11page uh three uh information relevant to
37:14the functioning of the military police
37:15including by way of relevance to the KA
37:18rules of procedure. Um then there are
37:20the portions corroborating the witness
37:22evidence. Page six reference to the KA
37:26general staff task for soldiers not to
37:28move around etc. And then the last pages
37:32list the various activities of the
37:34military police in the narrone in 1999.
37:40Yes, Mr.
37:42That short category uh exemplifies
37:46precisely why this is the wrong
37:48approach. Um it's using a witness who
37:52can speak to the accuracy of a portion
37:55of the document as a Trojan horse to
37:57smuggle in uncorroborated, unverified
38:00direct testimony in the form of a
38:02witness document which the prosecution
38:05then intends to rely on for other parts
38:07of its case. This is the very very
38:09concern uh that we've been identifying
38:12all the way through. Although in this
38:15instance um prosecution council has been
38:17kind enough to openly indicate uh that
38:20the witness is being used as a Trojan
38:22horse in that way.
38:26>> Thank you.
38:28And mark it for identification.
38:30>> Yes.
38:32>> Go ahead. Your honors, the ERN IT-03-66
38:39P23 will be Marcus identification
38:44P 01122.
38:47>> Thank you,
38:48>> Mr. President. If I may just uh add one
38:51additional point on this.
38:53>> I'm sorry. Go ahead.
38:54>> We've been uh the prosecution's position
38:56is we can explore it in
38:57cross-examination these pages. Um, the
39:00fact of the matter is it deals with the
39:02Naredem zone, which is not this
39:04witness's zone. 1999, he was outside of
39:06Kosovo for much of that period. Um, and
39:09it talks about the general staff, which
39:11the witness says he doesn't know
39:12anything about. So, I don't know how we
39:13could explore these pages in
39:14cross-examination.
39:16>> Thank you.
39:19>> Yes, sir. It's not necessarily only with
39:21this witness that those pages could be
39:23explored. the witness was not there um
39:26in the in Kosovo in 1999 and he has been
39:30put to him the pages and the portions of
39:32the diary which are relevant to his
39:34evidence and that he can speak to. And
39:36as for the rest of the uh document
39:40the you know the requirement for a
39:42missisibility have been met and the rest
39:44uh the assessment of the uh portions in
39:461998. It's a matter of wait and that can
39:49be explored throughout the rest of the
39:51uh case.
39:54Sorry. Thank you. We'll make a
39:55determination. Do you have any other
39:57questions?
39:59>> Yes, your honors.
40:01>> Witness, I just want to move now to a
40:04different topic. Can we have on the
40:06screens P8 in both languages, please?
40:16witness the document that will appear be
40:18appearing on the screen is the ka
40:20provisional rules uh of organizing
40:22internal army life from 1998. You
40:26discussed this document both during your
40:28ICTY testimony and the uh SPO interview
40:34and you said you received this document
40:36in June 1998. You distributed it to your
40:39soldiers. Do you remember that? This is
40:42also in P 11114.1
40:44page 3604
40:49you remember that
40:53>> yes
40:54>> we move to page 15 in both languages
40:57please witness I would like to I would
40:59like you to have a look at chapter eight
41:02which is military police and its duties
41:05and again while yes now we have it on
41:07the screen for the English you we can
41:10look um you can look up the uh Albanian
41:12portions. Uh now in various parts of
41:15your statements you discussed the role
41:17of uh the military police um for example
41:21P114.1
41:23page 3611 you testified about your
41:26knowledge of the duties of the military
41:28police saying um that they were to look
41:32after the soldiers to check them check
41:34their behavior helped the civilian with
41:37the civilian population etc.
41:40Uh later in the SPO interview P1115.2
41:44page 39 and 40 you stated that the
41:47military police would check travel
41:49permits vet people coming and going they
41:52could give warnings the merit arrest
41:56even arrest you and take soldiers to the
41:58brigade. You remember your evidence?
42:06>> Yes.
42:08are familiar with this document. You
42:09received it. You distribute it. I'm not
42:11going to go through all of the uh duties
42:14listed here. Um I just wanted to confirm
42:17with you that uh these provisions
42:19related to the duties of the military
42:21police reflect how the military police
42:24functioned during your time as a
42:26battalion commander in Brigade One.
42:39the there was a a team of police
42:45attached to our battalion. They lived
42:48there,
42:51but his command was at the brigade.
42:56They reported to the brigade.
43:02My next question like first um I had
43:05asked you uh whether you were um whether
43:11these provisions reflected your evidence
43:13about how the military police functioned
43:16during your time as battalion commander
43:19in brigade 121. That's Can you answer
43:22that question first and then we move on?
43:30>> How it functioned?
43:32I think I said it.
43:34>> Yes, exactly. So my question was does do
43:38these rules reflect your evidence
43:40reflect the way you said the military
43:42police functioned?
43:45>> They do. Yes. Yes.
43:49>> Police in your battalion. Correct.
43:55>> Yes.
43:58>> How many and starting from when?
44:05>> Initially they were four and then they
44:07became seven
44:12>> right from the outside that is from May
44:15beginning of May.
44:20Uh we are talking about 98
44:22>> of you are talking over each other.
44:25Please wait for her question and madam
44:27prosecutor wait for his answer before
44:29you start your next question.
44:31>> Yes your honor apologies.
44:39>> Okay. So we said that that was from u
44:42May 1998.
44:44Where were they stationed?
44:48in Crimeir.
44:49>> In Crimeir.
44:52>> And was there um a squad commander,
44:55military police squad commander within
44:57your battalion?
45:02>> Oh, new.
45:03>> Yes. Initially it was yet Hassani. He
45:07was killed and then Mr. Kuzi. I didn't
45:11catch the name. Sorry.
45:14The name of the person who succeeded to
45:17Ayat Assani.
45:26It may be May, beginning of June when
45:31they were either end of May or beginning
45:35of June. Alvas Corpusi was the deputy of
45:40yet.
45:45And they started their operation end of
45:48May, beginning of June.
45:51>> Name was
45:53Ivas Corpusi, not Garfuzi as reflected
45:58in the transcript currently.
46:01>> Yes,
46:03Coruzi.
46:08>> Okay.
46:11Now, yes, these two soldiers, Yetani and
46:14Ivas Corpus, are also listed in the
46:17document you provided to the SPO listing
46:19all of the members of your battalion.
46:22Correct. This is P116
46:26on page 061318.
46:31>> Paul,
46:31>> yes.
46:34Now in summer 1998
46:36and until he was appointed brigade
46:39commander, Aji Shala was the military
46:42police commander at the brigade level.
46:45Correct.
46:48>> Oh yes.
46:51Um the references to um uh P uh 1115.7
46:59page 23 that is uh nickname was Topi
47:03correct
47:06>> yes
47:08to
47:09>> show you a document um can I please call
47:12up RN
47:14U001
47:169725
47:18to U001
47:219732
47:22and uh it's uh English translation and
47:25if uh this can please be um not
47:30broadcast
47:46>> um we can stay with this first page of
47:48it's a notebook uh while the English is
47:51being brought up. You see at the very
47:53end, okay, the text is a bit faded and
47:57he says, uh, Sadik Shala Burgia
48:00battalion. What battalion was that?
48:05>> Bia
48:08pronunciation. What battalion was that?
48:12>> Battalion.
48:14>> Third battalion.
48:16>> Brigade one to one. Correct.
48:19Oh yes.
48:21>> If we move to the next page, please in
48:24both languages marked with the RN U001
48:299726.
48:31It's an entry uh dated the 12th of
48:35August 1998. If we can scroll, zoom out
48:39a little bit so that more of the
48:41Albanian pages visible including the
48:44bottom part with the signature please.
48:49Do you recognize the block signature at
48:53the end? The witness
48:55in the unwritten document.
48:59>> Yes. Topi.
49:06the police commander Shala
49:10>> at that time to have handwritten notes
49:14of this type to record meetings and so
49:17on
49:22>> normal. Yes, it was.
49:27>> Did you do that yourself?
49:30>> Oh, yes I did.
49:33Now this entry lists the military police
49:37rules for the uh Sadi Shala battalion
49:41the third battalion of brigade uh one to
49:44one.
49:46You can have a look at the list of uh
49:49the rules.
49:52I can read a couple for you. military
49:54police has the right in given situation
49:58to execute, arrest also battalion
50:00commanders in cases of violation of the
50:02rules. You gave us this evidence
50:05already. Uh you confirmed that, right?
50:11>> Oh
50:11>> yes.
50:13This is what they said then.
50:18>> Soldiers who are not in possession of
50:19travel authorization shall be disarmed.
50:26Yes, that's how it was.
50:29>> Permission of the military police is
50:31required.
50:35>> It was their duty, not ours,
50:39>> not go through the old list, but do
50:42these rules reflect how the military
50:45police function operated again during
50:48your time as battalion commander in
50:49Brigade 121?
50:55Yes.
50:57>> Please move to page five in both
50:59languages, please.
51:06Uh, witness, I want to uh ask you some
51:09questions on the first two entries.
51:11There are two entries dated the 15th of
51:15uh August 1998.
51:18Now in the first one the entry says it
51:22was decided to speak with the soldiers
51:24of the Rachi company today to inform all
51:28of them about the military police rules.
51:32The second entry says today we spoke
51:35with the soldiers based in the forers's
51:38house and the military police rules were
51:41read out to them.
51:46Can we now move to page seven in both
51:48languages and then I will ask you a
51:49question about these entries as they are
51:52similar in content
51:56and I'm referring now uh to the entry of
51:5819 August. So if the Albanian can scroll
52:01be scrolled down a little bit. Thank
52:02you. Uh now uh it's a report uh report
52:07on Wednesday says and um the entry reads
52:11we were out in the field today. I'll
52:14skip to the end. We conveyed the p the
52:17military police rules for the battalion
52:20and some clarifications through uh some
52:23comrades.
52:25Now my questions on these three entries,
52:28the two ones of 15 August and these of
52:33uh 19 August uh is the following.
52:37Did the same happen in your battalion in
52:40summer 1998?
52:42And what I mean is where the military
52:45police rules conveyed to your soldiers
52:49as well.
52:54>> Hope I
52:55>> Yes. But it was a special meeting with
52:59with the police without my presence.
53:04>> Whom if you remember who held the
53:07meeting?
53:09>> Yes. the one that has written down
53:13Shalah
53:16>> question on this document. Uh if we can
53:18move to page eight of both versions. The
53:22RN is U000019732.
53:28This is an entry from the 13th of
53:31August.
53:33Um so the two questions the two portions
53:36I'm interested into are the one on 13
53:40August um 1998 if we can scroll down a
53:44little bit in the Albanian
53:48it says on um
53:5213 August
53:57someone I'm not reading the name was um
54:02intercepted without a weapon and without
54:04the travel authorization.
54:08Now, does this reflect your evidence
54:10that the um military police, for
54:13example, would check travel
54:14authorizations, travel permits, and vet
54:17people coming and going.
54:23>> So, correct.
54:26>> And then the other entry uh is a little
54:29bit up from the one that I just read.
54:31I'm not reading the name but the entry
54:34says name of the person and then we were
54:37informed orally that he is a suspicious
54:40person. And in relation to this entry uh
54:44my question is does this entry reflect
54:47your evidence that suspicious cases
54:50would be reported to uh the military
54:52police? You gave us some examples of
54:55these yourself in your evidence.
54:58Um yeah,
55:02>> is correct.
55:07>> Okay, that's enough. Um your honor, the
55:10SPO enters this document into evidence
55:13as a confidential uh exhibit because of
55:15the nature of certain information.
55:18>> Your honor, the objections follow a
55:20similar pattern.
55:22um all of the probitative and relevant
55:24evidence that this witness has given he
55:26gave before being shown that document
55:30and what council has done is to gone is
55:32to go through a document of which he is
55:34not the author. I'm so sorry. What
55:37council has done is to go through a
55:39document of which he is not the author,
55:42pick out particular instances which he
55:45invites the witness to confirm are
55:48confirmatory of the testimony he himself
55:51has already given. Now even allowing for
55:55the fact that that is probitative in
55:56itself which in our submission it is not
56:00a probitative exercise
56:03uh because of course it's not the same
56:05instance the witness has testified from
56:07his own experience. There's nothing in
56:09this document that adds anything, but it
56:13falls foul of all of the same principles
56:16of first of all um uh it being material
56:19which which um doesn't provide any
56:22independent assistance to the panel and
56:24probative value is something obviously
56:26that has to be assessed in all of these
56:29materials. But secondly, yet again, by
56:32finding points of coincidence or points
56:35that council leads the witness into
56:37saying, um, does this reflect the sort
56:40of thing that you've already told us
56:42about? Um, it's being used once again,
56:45as is, I'm afraid
56:48all too frequent, as a means of getting
56:50in large amounts of entirely
56:52inadmissible mater.
56:54>> Thank you. This will be marked for
56:56identification as well, but anybody else
56:58want to make a record? Um, we join the
57:00objection, your honor, as do we.
57:03>> Time your
57:06>> uh your honors, just to respond briefly.
57:08Thank you. Uh, well, the the the witness
57:10has uh recognized the documents,
57:13recognized Commander Topy's signature.
57:15He has been placed in time. He has
57:17connected to the evidence that he gave.
57:20He has underlined that the same happened
57:23in his battalion, the same events that
57:25are described in relation to another
57:27battalion. So therefore um the the
57:30document the the the primaache uh
57:33admissibility requirement relevance um
57:37authentification etc are met and the
57:39documents for omission
57:43>> I just want to clarify our position we
57:45don't object to the portions that were
57:47shown to the to the witness it's the
57:49extra pages that weren't shown that we
57:50object to admitting
57:53almost all pages were shown to the
57:54witness
57:56>> almost all pages were shown on to the
57:58witness. It's very little that is left
58:00out.
58:01>> Thank you.
58:04Continue your direct examination.
58:07>> If I may, your honor, uh the ERN 011 0
58:11U001
58:139725 to U001 to 9732
58:18will be marked for identification as P
58:2101123.
58:23Thank you, honest. And it's classified
58:25as confidential. Thank you. I see that
58:27it's uh nearly 10:00. We'll take a
58:2910-minute break at this point. U
58:32witness, we'll take a 10-minute break
58:34and then we'll be back in the courtroom.
58:36Please go with the uh court usher.
58:52So, we are adjourned for 10 minutes. All
58:55rise.
59:21All right.
59:33Are you seated?
59:51Sorry for the short delay. I probably
59:54ought to hold myself in contempt of
59:56court.
59:58We'll go on with the process. Madame
1:00:00court usher, please bring the witness
1:00:01in.
1:00:50All right, witness, welcome back.
1:00:53The prosecution has some more questions
1:00:55for you. Go ahead.
1:00:58Thank you, honors.
1:01:00Uh, witness, moving to a different
1:01:02topic. Uh, did you participate to the
1:01:0528th November 1998 Flag Day celebrations
1:01:09in the Beria Hills?
1:01:16Oh
1:01:17>> yes, I did
1:01:19>> share an article about um those um those
1:01:22celebrations. Um the Iran is SPOE
1:01:27400000012
1:01:32uh and uh it's English translation. And
1:01:35if I can please have both on the
1:01:37screens.
1:01:45witness. The um the document that will
1:01:47appear is a Zer Kosovo article from uh
1:01:52December 1998 reporting about the flag
1:01:56day celebrations of the 28th of November
1:01:591998. The article will appear. Yes. Now
1:02:03we have it on your screens. At least you
1:02:04can see the uh original. Do you see
1:02:07that? and is authored by Nuiuchi.
1:02:12If we can zoom out a little bit from the
1:02:14Albanian, please.
1:02:16And as well as the English
1:02:21witness, do you remember that day?
1:02:28>> I do not remember the article, but I do
1:02:32remember taking part in this festive
1:02:34day.
1:02:36present in relation to the article. I
1:02:38understand you might have not um read
1:02:40this one specifically. Um I will um so I
1:02:45can read from the beginning uh after the
1:02:49um part in bold
1:02:52if the English can be scrolled down a
1:02:55little bit where it starts with a we had
1:02:57set off.
1:03:00Thank you. Um we had set off on that
1:03:03cold uh November day to take part in the
1:03:06celebrations of 28th uh November. You
1:03:10remember the day weatherwise, right? I
1:03:13think you told us. So
1:03:15>> yes,
1:03:17>> the main commemoration ceremonies of the
1:03:20soldiers and officers of the Kosovo
1:03:23Liberation Army on the occasion of 28th
1:03:26November, I'll skip some lines was held
1:03:30in the Berisha Hills which were clocked
1:03:33in white
1:03:35and I think you confirm the weather
1:03:37conditions.
1:03:40The organizers of this ceremonial
1:03:42organization uh were the members of the
1:03:44past zone. Correct.
1:03:48>> Oh yes.
1:03:51>> The uh article then speaks about uh Mr.
1:03:55Chevchet Buchai who opened the ceremony
1:03:58and Mr. Yakub Krasnichi who spoke uh for
1:04:02the general staff. Uh do you remember um
1:04:05those speakers?
1:04:09>> Yes.
1:04:11Now in the English if we can please move
1:04:13to page three
1:04:15while uh witness for the uh Albanian I
1:04:19will be uh looking at a quote uh from
1:04:23the third column. Yes, a little bit uh
1:04:26perfect. Thank you. Uh from uh Mr.
1:04:29Shabandra
1:04:31whom uh you mentioned in your evidence
1:04:34uh was the chief of operations for
1:04:36brigade one to one. Correct.
1:04:43Yes.
1:04:45>> Quote from um from um him from Mr.
1:04:50Dragai is quoting as saying
1:04:54in the KLA
1:04:57there exist uh a unified command
1:05:03a chain of command which is respected
1:05:06from a squad level up to the general
1:05:09staff.
1:05:10There are no narrow groupings or
1:05:13interests but unity and the
1:05:16determination to fight to the end to
1:05:19remove the Serbian forces from Kosovo.
1:05:23Those are the factors which dominate.
1:05:28So the first question I have is
1:05:32you heard uh what is attributed to Mr.
1:05:35the drag guy.
1:05:38In in your experience, do those word
1:05:41reflect how uh how you also experienced
1:05:45the organization and structure of the KA
1:05:48during your time as battalion commander
1:05:51and brigade onetoone with references of
1:05:54course to 1998 to 1999.
1:06:02the battalion.
1:06:04>> Yes, in the battalion. Yes, I can only
1:06:07answer about the battalion. So, yes, it
1:06:10was precisely as it's been put there.
1:06:12>> Yes. Uh in the battalion we as a place
1:06:16of course within the structure of the
1:06:18brigade and of the past zone. I um I
1:06:22would put it I would I would put to you
1:06:26>> yes correct.
1:06:28Um Ayet Castraati is also in the same
1:06:33third column uh is also mentioned uh uh
1:06:36in here. Uh can you tell us again which
1:06:40battalion was the commander
1:06:47>> for a brief time in the third battalion
1:06:52>> after the fall of Kumanov?
1:06:55>> Yes. after Kumanava was killed in August
1:06:571998. Correct.
1:07:01>> Yes.
1:07:10>> Okay. Um for the sake of time um your
1:07:13I'll tender this document into evidence
1:07:15as a public exhibit.
1:07:22>> Sorry. No objection.
1:07:24No,
1:07:27>> SPOE
1:07:29400000012
1:07:32is admitted and will be assigned an
1:07:34exhibit number
1:07:36>> and we reassign assigned the exhibit
1:07:38number P01124.
1:07:41I think your honor and it's classified
1:07:43as public
1:07:48witness. I'll move now to a different
1:07:50topic. Um you discussed in your uh
1:07:54statements a team of doctors and nurses,
1:07:58a team of 17 people who uh would go
1:08:01where needed. Uh and you make references
1:08:05to doctors in Cromier mentioning
1:08:08specifically Dr. Yakupi and Dr. Nazir.
1:08:12The references are to the um ICTY
1:08:15testimony P114.2
1:08:18which is 36813.
1:08:21That's Naseri.
1:08:23>> Dr. Naseri. Yes.
1:08:31>> I want to ask for your comments on a
1:08:33document marked with SPOE 00232831
1:08:41to SPOE 00232833
1:08:46and the U related ET please. Then again
1:08:49if it can be put on the split screen.
1:08:52Thanks.
1:09:06Now, witness um I I quote from your
1:09:10evidence uh the SPO interview um P
1:09:1411115.3
1:09:16uh page two lines one to three that you
1:09:18said um referring to 1998 when people
1:09:23understood that we had we as the KA had
1:09:27taken up positions there and established
1:09:30um a presence,
1:09:33they began to bring us aid, bring us
1:09:37food stuff.
1:09:39Do you remember the provision of aid
1:09:41that you mentioned in your evidence?
1:09:49>> Yes.
1:09:50But um they were delivered directly to
1:09:53the doctors. They came from Mother
1:09:55Teresa order. uh they came from various
1:09:59volunteers who had the means the
1:10:02possibility to do so.
1:10:04>> Understand the donations included also
1:10:07the donations that you received in
1:10:09Cormier included also medical aid.
1:10:11Correct.
1:10:13>> Paul.
1:10:14>> Yes.
1:10:16>> Ambulatory in Cormier
1:10:21>> Paul.
1:10:22>> Yes.
1:10:24What we're looking at is a KA general
1:10:26staff register of donors who helped the
1:10:30Ka with uh material goods. And I want to
1:10:34uh draw your attention to a couple of uh
1:10:36entries.
1:10:37So for example, if you look at entry
1:10:39number one, this is dated uh June 1998.
1:10:45uh here refers to lab laboratory
1:10:48material and the um the delivery the
1:10:53material was delivered to ambulatory in
1:10:56crime.
1:10:59Oh
1:11:00>> yes,
1:11:04>> I didn't know exactly what we received,
1:11:07but the ambulatory facilities were there
1:11:10and of course they had the right to
1:11:12accept all of the the donations that
1:11:14were given by the donors.
1:11:18>> Also looking at entries number uh 8 to
1:11:2210. This concerned uh medication of uh
1:11:27the various values uh again delivered to
1:11:31the ambulatory in Crimeir uh in June
1:11:36sorry uh July and August uh 1998.
1:11:42So does that reflect how um
1:11:46how things functioning? I mean what do
1:11:48you saw uh happening at the ambulatory
1:11:50crime in those uh uh in the summer 1990?
1:12:00>> Yes,
1:12:03the clinic was actually uh completed
1:12:06with all of the equipment that were
1:12:08required for both the residents of the
1:12:10area as well as the soldiers.
1:12:13Um Yonos this document was seized from
1:12:16the residence of Mr. Jakob Nishin
1:12:19Christina and we're tendering now into
1:12:23uh evidence as a public exhibit.
1:12:28Y we object um first place the standing
1:12:31objection to the search but particularly
1:12:32in relation to this document. Um the
1:12:35witness hasn't confirmed he ever saw
1:12:37this document before. uh he hasn't
1:12:40confirmed any of the specific entries in
1:12:42this document um saying he didn't know
1:12:44specifically what was received um and in
1:12:47those circumstances uh
1:12:51all the witness has confirmed is that in
1:12:53general terms the ka received donations
1:12:55from the people which is not a matter in
1:12:58dispute in in in in the proceedings
1:13:01so so there is no there is no need to
1:13:04admit this there is no relevance it's
1:13:06not been authenticated
1:13:08by the court not to admit
1:13:13SPOE 00232831
1:13:17to 23 2833 is admitted satisfies the
1:13:23primapacia standards for admission under
1:13:25rule 138
1:13:27>> and it will be assigned
1:13:28>> please give it a a number. Yes, your
1:13:31honor. It will be assigned exhibit
1:13:32number P01125
1:13:36classified as confidential.
1:13:43>> Thank you.
1:13:44>> And we will be uh providing in a
1:13:47separate filing all of the uh
1:13:49information that you separately
1:13:51requested in relation to seize item. Uh
1:13:53I'm referring to your directions of 15th
1:13:56January.
1:13:59Um, can I now
1:14:00>> can I now have uh ERN spoe uh 0022
1:14:065149
1:14:07and the uh English translation please
1:14:25also in relation to the previous
1:14:27document I um attend the SPO attended it
1:14:31as a public exhibit.
1:14:44>> Uh witness while we're waiting for the
1:14:47document to be uh brought up uh I wanted
1:14:50to uh bring you back to um an a person
1:14:54that you uh spoke about Dr. Fitim Selimi
1:14:59operating in the area of Sidlar shal
1:15:02under the first battalion. Do you
1:15:03remember that?
1:15:07>> Oh
1:15:08>> yes I do.
1:15:10>> Now we have a report um if we can uh go
1:15:14all the way down so that the witness can
1:15:16see um who signed the report.
1:15:24Do you see the uh signature at the end
1:15:26of this document? Witness
1:15:30>> Paul.
1:15:31>> Yes, I do.
1:15:33To my knowledge, he worked in the
1:15:36village of Charin, the ambulatory
1:15:38services there. Dr. Fitim that is. So,
1:15:41he was in charge of the doctors there.
1:15:45I've never seen his signature. I do not
1:15:47know his signature, but he was there as
1:15:50a doctor.
1:15:53you mentioned in preparation session you
1:15:55did not see this document before correct
1:15:57it was shown when you saw it in the
1:15:59preparation session it was the first
1:16:01time you saw it correct
1:16:04>> that's correct yes yes I had not seen it
1:16:08before I couldn't
1:16:14>> if you were not in a position um that
1:16:17would require you sitting in it correct
1:16:25No, I was a battalion commander. I
1:16:28couldn't really see a document like
1:16:30this.
1:16:32>> Questions about this about the content
1:16:34of the document. If we go up to um the
1:16:37first part of the report also in English
1:16:40please. Yeah. So um Mr. um
1:16:44uh Mr. Selimi Fitim Salimi is reporting
1:16:48about uh the uh healthc care situation
1:16:51in the territory and says the healthcare
1:16:54through the above mentioned territory is
1:16:57being offered in the following locations
1:17:00Cromier Shala Neovs Kishar Nugatina
1:17:06etc. you can see all of the uh locations
1:17:09and then it speaks about the number of
1:17:11health workers and the typologies of uh
1:17:15their um their professionalities, their
1:17:17specialties. Um now is that uh
1:17:21consistent with your knowledge of where
1:17:23health care was provided at the time in
1:17:26the area uh that you operated within
1:17:33Paul?
1:17:34>> Yes.
1:17:36go down to um
1:17:41the fourth paragraph. It says the
1:17:44equipment and material is supplied
1:17:46mainly by humanitarian sources and
1:17:48voluntary donors. Uh the funding the
1:17:52service gets from the army fund is
1:17:53small.
1:17:58Again, does this information reflect
1:18:00what you saw at the time?
1:18:02>> It's accurate.
1:18:05That's correct.
1:18:09>> Okay. Um, your honors, also this
1:18:11document was seized from the residence
1:18:12of Mr. Jakob Kasnichi and the SPO would
1:18:15tender it into evidence at this point as
1:18:17a public exhibit.
1:18:20>> Yes, we we object again your honors. Um,
1:18:22standing objection to the search, but
1:18:24also the witness has expressly cons
1:18:26confirmed that he did not uh see this
1:18:28document before uh and he did not see
1:18:30this signature before, so he can't
1:18:32authenticate it.
1:18:35And you also I would reply that as with
1:18:37the document before this document is B
1:18:39table allegible. The fact that the
1:18:41witness has been able to speak to it and
1:18:43to confirm some content of it is
1:18:45sufficient for the purposes of
1:18:47admissibility pursuant to rule 13.
1:18:52>> SPOE 00225149
1:18:55is admitted under uh rule 138. Thank
1:19:00you. Go ahead. and we'll be assigned the
1:19:03exhibit number P01126
1:19:07classified as public. Thank you.
1:19:14>> With us, do you know who Cher Kin Doli
1:19:16was?
1:19:22>> Kachin Brig.
1:19:24>> He held a position in the brigade as in
1:19:27personnel in the brigade.
1:19:31Okay. uh in the uh list of members of
1:19:34your battalion that you provided to the
1:19:37SPO and that I mentioned before that was
1:19:41exhibit P116
1:19:45uh page 45
1:19:47uh page er page 061318
1:19:51you listed among the um uh military
1:19:54police uh of your battalion uh Ivascusi
1:19:59whom you also mention as a deputy
1:20:05Do you remember that?
1:20:11>> Do you?
1:20:12>> Yes.
1:20:14>> Yes.
1:20:16disciplinary action taken against any of
1:20:20these policemen and if yes when
1:20:30>> I wasn't uh there at the time it was the
1:20:33beginning of 1999 I have been told but
1:20:36wasn't there
1:20:37>> and yes I understand I was asking about
1:20:40your knowledge of it and uh do you
1:20:43remember the names of the policemen who
1:20:46were um who were involved in those
1:20:51disciplinary uh cases or measures
1:20:59>> as I said and I will say it again I
1:21:02wasn't there I was preparing for uh the
1:21:05fight in Koshar but this is in the
1:21:08entire medical team they had a problem
1:21:13with the command the brigade
1:21:16um interviewed them.
1:21:18So whoever was in Cro and this is what I
1:21:21was told after I returned
1:21:25>> because they misbehaved somewhere with
1:21:29somebody member of the public. But again
1:21:33this is what they told me.
1:21:36>> Understand? I was more interested into
1:21:38whether you remember the names of the
1:21:40specific military policemen. For
1:21:42example,
1:21:43>> Agaroni. Yes. A
1:21:47then
1:21:48aam.
1:21:51Yes, it was them at the time.
1:21:54>> The entire team they were there and the
1:21:58entire team of policemen.
1:22:02>> Uh now
1:22:05um
1:22:09I'm moving to the uh last uh set of
1:22:12questions. Witness.
1:22:50Witness, you're aware from your uh
1:22:53previous interviews
1:22:56uh since uh that information was put to
1:22:59you in details in those interviews that
1:23:01there are allegations that you took part
1:23:04in arrests, interrogations and
1:23:07mistreatment of civilian. You're aware
1:23:09of those allegations, right?
1:23:18>> I have never been involved
1:23:22in any of such things. I have told you
1:23:27about everything I know.
1:23:32So I understand it is uh still your
1:23:34evidence that you were not involved in
1:23:37any arrests in any interrogations any
1:23:40>> never
1:23:43>> never
1:23:44>> people were later transported to or
1:23:47ended up in the Laushnik detention
1:23:50facilities
1:23:55>> nuclear m
1:23:57>> no I was not involved
1:23:59>> okay Mr. I will put to you um a
1:24:02proposition and I'll ask you for your um
1:24:06comment to that taking into account what
1:24:08you right now already told us.
1:24:14The SPO um proposition is that you were
1:24:18more involved than you actually uh feel
1:24:22comfortable to admit in those
1:24:25allegations that you ordered uh and or
1:24:29participated to arrest of civilians who
1:24:32ended up in detention in La Pushnik
1:24:36that you participated to their
1:24:38mistreatment or order that
1:24:41and ordered your soldiers also to
1:24:44mistreat civilians during interrogations
1:24:48and that proposition is that also you
1:24:50knew that was wrong and that is why
1:24:52you're denying your involvement and I
1:24:55would like to hear again your answer to
1:24:57that
1:25:07>> I have never been involved my tasks were
1:25:10at the front line
1:25:13That's where I was. I was not part of
1:25:14these things.
1:25:18>> Okay, I understand. Uh, your honors,
1:25:20those were my questions. Thank you.
1:25:23>> Thank you, Mr. Roberts.
1:25:30>> Thank you, your honor, if you just give
1:25:31me one minute just to get myself ready,
1:25:33but I'll I'll obviously start now and
1:25:34knock out 15 minutes. Thanks.
1:25:37>> Thank you.
1:25:37>> For planning purposes, and whilst Mr.
1:25:40Roberts is doing that. Um, I indicated
1:25:42earlier on that I thought my estimate
1:25:45was very considerably longer than I
1:25:48would actually require. As matters
1:25:50currently stand, I I wouldn't expect to
1:25:53ask any questions at all or or or if I
1:25:56do, they would be very very limited.
1:25:58>> Thank you very much for that update.
1:26:01Anybody else wish to uh state your your
1:26:06minutes?
1:26:08Not hours, minutes.
1:26:12>> It's about 45 pages, judge. So,
1:26:14>> okay.
1:26:14>> I'm staying with my estimate.
1:26:16>> I'll call that an hour.
1:26:21>> Yes, Mr. Ellis.
1:26:22>> Um, I'm also staying with my estimate,
1:26:24your honor.
1:26:25>> All right. Go ahead.
1:26:28>> Thank you, your honor. Uh, good morning,
1:26:30witness. Uh, we just have about 10
1:26:32minutes now before the break, so I'll
1:26:35just get started with some questions and
1:26:36then continue afterwards.
1:26:38Um, I just want to start off with your
1:26:41arrival into Kosovo in what I believe is
1:26:44April 1998.
1:26:47Now, you told the SPO
1:26:51uh in relation to this this arrival that
1:26:54you entered into Kosovo and went to Lots
1:26:57in a group of nine or 10 people after
1:27:00having met Azimula in Tana. Is that
1:27:03correct?
1:27:08you.
1:27:09>> I'm sorry. You represent whom?
1:27:14>> So, you're the defense of uh
1:27:19>> You didn't introduce yourself, Mr.
1:27:20>> My apologies, your honor. I thought you
1:27:22did that for me. Sometimes you do. I
1:27:24must have uh missed out on that one. So,
1:27:26yeah. Yes. I'm I'm council for Mr. Reep
1:27:28Selimi. Sorry.
1:27:30So, I'll just I'll just go back to
1:27:32repeating that question. Uh so you told
1:27:35the SPO that when you first entered
1:27:36Kosovo you came from Tana to Liot
1:27:41uh and you went to Liots in a group of
1:27:42nine or 10 people uh having met Azam
1:27:45Zula in Tana. Is that right?
1:27:51>> Correct.
1:27:53>> You didn't know Reep Salimi personally
1:27:56before you entered Kosovo, did you?
1:27:57You'd never met him.
1:28:04I never met him before.
1:28:08>> Given for him this the nicknames. So
1:28:11Agron or number 10. These weren't
1:28:13nicknames that you knew personally.
1:28:15These were told to you by people before
1:28:18you went in to Kosovo.
1:28:22Is that right?
1:28:24>> Yes.
1:28:26not persons but it was Aamsula in fact.
1:28:32Now when you arrived you told the SPO
1:28:35that you took a letter to uh Agron or
1:28:38number 10 and told him who you were and
1:28:41where you came from but you hadn't read
1:28:44the letter before you arrived. Is that
1:28:46correct?
1:28:51>> That's correct.
1:28:53actually saw at any point the content of
1:28:56that letter, that piece of paper that
1:28:57you gave to him. Is that correct?
1:28:59Because it was sealed. I believe
1:29:09>> it was um um it was wrapped in a
1:29:13ordinary piece of uh paper really and it
1:29:18also it was um wrapped in such a way
1:29:21that one couldn't open it but also so
1:29:24that it would be waterproof.
1:29:29actually written on that letter. Is that
1:29:31right?
1:29:32>> Even after you arrived into Liots.
1:29:39>> No, I did not.
1:29:43>> You sealed and then he opened it and
1:29:46then read it in your presence. Is that
1:29:48right?
1:29:51Oh,
1:29:52>> yes.
1:29:54Actually, I can't remember exactly, but
1:29:55yes, I think that's it is that's what it
1:29:57is.
1:30:00actually in Liots or was it outside
1:30:02somewhere or was it in the where exactly
1:30:05did you meet him?
1:30:10Leovs.
1:30:11>> So
1:30:13when I was in Lovs and I was never after
1:30:16the war so I was there twice. So I said
1:30:20Lovs and I was told it was Lovs. So I
1:30:23thought it was Lovs and I knew it to be
1:30:25Lovs
1:30:28of Lots or was it outside one of the
1:30:30villages around or or you don't know
1:30:32specifically
1:30:36>> the
1:30:38>> to be honest I never went back there
1:30:42again. I know it was a village. It was
1:30:45the ambulatory facilities I told you
1:30:47about. There was some homes where we
1:30:50stayed overnight in those villages. So
1:30:52that was it really
1:30:56>> because you didn't see it. You don't
1:30:58know if it was directly addressed to Mr.
1:31:00Selimi
1:31:02>> from Mr. Zula.
1:31:08>> Uh you
1:31:12please if I may. Azamsa
1:31:15told me that if you lose this letter,
1:31:22it will only be for you to pass the
1:31:26letter on and to go to the Dita part and
1:31:29if you lose uh this letter um but I do
1:31:33not know what the contents of the letter
1:31:35were because I did not see it. Now, in
1:31:38your ICTY trial testimony, and I believe
1:31:41that's uh P114,
1:31:45you explained that Mr. Zula had written
1:31:47where you were supposed to go and what
1:31:49were your tasks and duties, although you
1:31:52were told about that orally by by Mr.
1:31:54Selimi. Is that correct?
1:31:58That's transcript page 3563 from P114
1:32:02for the record.
1:32:02>> Kush Makon,
1:32:03>> who gave that to me? I'm sorry.
1:32:06>> That Mr. Zula had written down where you
1:32:09were supposed to go and what were your
1:32:10tasks and duties, but you were given
1:32:13that information orally by Mr. Selimi
1:32:15when you arrived.
1:32:18Is that correct?
1:32:24I I can read out the the quote from your
1:32:26testimony if that makes it easier.
1:32:29>> Yes, sir. Sir,
1:32:31>> um that's correct. That's correct. Yes,
1:32:34it's what I've said back then. Nothing's
1:32:36changed.
1:32:37>> So what Mr. Simi was effectively doing
1:32:40in your evidence is reading out what Mr.
1:32:42Zula had written in that piece of paper
1:32:45as in where to go and what your tasks
1:32:47and duties were. Is is that a correct
1:32:50understanding?
1:32:56>> There was no need for him to read it out
1:32:58loud because we trusted one another and
1:33:01whatever tasks and duties were assigned
1:33:04to us then we would do that. I didn't
1:33:05decide where I was to go. Others decided
1:33:08that for me.
1:33:10>> Yes. I I think the the question I'm
1:33:12trying to ask is that it was Mr. Selimi
1:33:15reading out what Mr. Zula had written
1:33:17down. It was Mr. Zula who had decided or
1:33:20suggested that you go to Cromir.
1:33:24Is that correct?
1:33:32>> Of course, Mr.
1:33:34and
1:33:37well I cannot know accurately precisely
1:33:39who decided but I came from that place.
1:33:43I had friends who had already been
1:33:45organized in the fight and when I made
1:33:48the request in Argita
1:33:52and that is why they sent me there.
1:33:56>> So you were the one who told Mr. Zula
1:33:59that you could go to Cromier. Is that
1:34:01right?
1:34:03because you had friends there. So it
1:34:05would be a logical place for you to go.
1:34:11>> Nor normally
1:34:13>> yes
1:34:15>> the SPO that's P115.1
1:34:19page 32
1:34:21that you didn't actually need to be
1:34:23instructed about where to go.
1:34:31See,
1:34:32>> I'm sorry
1:34:35>> that you didn't need to be instructed
1:34:36about where to go. And I presume that's
1:34:39because you felt that it would be
1:34:40logical and normal for you to go to
1:34:42Cromier, which is where you were from.
1:34:46Is that fair?
1:34:53>> Okay. So, a lot of time has passed, but
1:34:56I was assigned to that area. Um I was
1:35:00asked where it would be easier for me to
1:35:02be assigned to and act and I said here
1:35:05and the people who were responsible in
1:35:07charge um gave me that task and that's
1:35:10what I did
1:35:12was this interaction with with with Mr.
1:35:14Selimi to your recollection.
1:35:19assume it was very brief based on the
1:35:21nature of your testimony, but can you
1:35:24just clarify?
1:35:29>> It was brief. I cannot remember exactly
1:35:31how long it lasted.
1:35:33>> Well, it was brief as you put it.
1:35:38>> And you also explained that to your
1:35:39knowledge, no one else who you were with
1:35:43uh received any similar instructions. Is
1:35:46that correct?
1:35:49about where to go from Mr. Zulu. Sorry
1:35:58atmas
1:35:59>> once again please.
1:36:01>> In your SPO interview, so that's part
1:36:03one, page 31,
1:36:06you were asked by the SPO, were you the
1:36:08only person who received an order from
1:36:10Azam Zulu? And your answer was it's
1:36:12possible that he may have given them
1:36:13given one to them that I wasn't aware of
1:36:16but I doubt it.
1:36:21>> So to your knowledge you were the only
1:36:22one who received something.
1:36:30>> I think he instructed me alone. I was in
1:36:33charge of that group. But when we
1:36:36arrived in Lovs then we were deployed.
1:36:40So
1:36:41it's not like the entire group followed
1:36:44me in Klesk in Crimeir. Some stayed
1:36:47there like for instance Shabban Mohammed
1:36:50stayed in Lov Sabir somebody else went
1:36:54elsewhere which was the area he came
1:36:57from. So it's not like we all went to
1:36:59Cleka or Crimeir.
1:37:02>> So Mr. Silly me in in this interaction
1:37:05merely directed you on to Crimeir in
1:37:08implementation of what Mr. Zula had
1:37:11written.
1:37:13Could you have gone anywhere else?
1:37:22>> Yes. If I had been told to go elsewhere,
1:37:24of course I'd have to.
1:37:26>> I think it's a good time now if that's
1:37:28convenient.
1:37:31We will take a half hour break. Witness,
1:37:35uh, please do not speak about your
1:37:37testimony in outside of the courtroom
1:37:40and you may go with the court usher at
1:37:43this time.
1:37:45>> Yeah,
1:37:47>> I'm sorry. I will learn there. So, I
1:37:49don't think there's anybody else that I
1:37:51could talk to.
1:38:08All right.
1:38:36All right.
1:38:50Be seated, please.
1:38:57Please bring the witness in. Adam
1:40:06All right, witness. We will continue
1:40:07with the cross- examination with Mr.
1:40:09Roberts.
1:40:12>> Thank you, your honor. Hello again,
1:40:14witness. Uh, so we were talking about
1:40:17the interaction you had with Mr. Selimi
1:40:20when you first arrived in uh to Kosovo.
1:40:23Just to be clear, he didn't appoint you
1:40:25to any specific position at all, did he?
1:40:27At that stage,
1:40:30he merely directed you over towards
1:40:32Crimeir.
1:40:39>> We met with Fatm Limite there. It was an
1:40:43accidental meeting
1:40:46and I went there together with Fatmir.
1:40:53point you to any position. He just
1:40:56merely, as we discussed earlier, read
1:40:59out what was in the letter
1:41:01and directed you over towards Croy, but
1:41:05there was no official appointment that
1:41:07he implemented at that stage, was there?
1:41:10>> Not not
1:41:12at the time.
1:41:17But I went there together with Fatmir
1:41:19Lim to get me
1:41:25interview with the SPO. You weren't
1:41:27actually formally appointed to a
1:41:29position until August. I think it was
1:41:31August the 16th and that was by Fatmir
1:41:34Limi, wasn't it?
1:41:38You
1:41:39>> please from the day I went to Cromir
1:41:44together with Li
1:41:46I reported to him from the very start
1:41:54on paper it was when you said
1:41:59but earlier not I reported to Fatmir as
1:42:04to who Fatmir reported to this I don't
1:42:07know but from the very start
1:42:11I assumed you know duties and everything
1:42:13from Fatmir Limai
1:42:20So, it's just a question of the
1:42:21appointment that I was interested in at
1:42:23that stage. Um, if we could just
1:42:25actually go now to a document that you
1:42:27were shown this morning, which is this
1:42:30um supposed diary. It's P1122
1:42:35and the RN is IT0366.
1:42:41If we could just put that up on screen.
1:42:42you remember this that you were taken
1:42:44through in in some detail by by council
1:42:46for the prosecution. Um, and if we could
1:42:49go to the same page that she showed you
1:42:53uh entitled a delayed diary.
1:42:56So that was page four of the English. Do
1:43:00you remember having this discussion
1:43:01about your entry into uh into Kosovo and
1:43:05where you went?
1:43:10And if we could just get the the
1:43:12Albanian as well.
1:43:20Now, just to be clear, and we don't need
1:43:21to go through this in any detail, but
1:43:24that doesn't mention Mr. Selimi or Agron
1:43:26at all, does it? And and please feel
1:43:29free to check that section
1:43:32because this is talking about your your
1:43:34entry into Kosovo. It doesn't make any
1:43:36reference to Mr.
1:43:38or Agron or 10.
1:43:44>> This is a diary of churches.
1:43:48It shows that we came to the
1:43:54I said what I had to say. He wrote it in
1:43:58his diary. It's very true that we came
1:44:01together with churches.
1:44:06I can't even read it now
1:44:10or it seemed to be read to you. Um, my
1:44:14understanding, please correct me if I'm
1:44:15wrong.
1:44:18>> In that extract at all,
1:44:25>> no, there isn't.
1:44:29I don't know where you are getting at.
1:44:34in your evidence, he was the one that
1:44:36directed you to Cromier. Uh, and we'll
1:44:39talk in a minute about what you
1:44:40considered the implication of that. Uh,
1:44:44and yet he's not mentioned at all in
1:44:46relation to your this description of
1:44:48your trip from uh, Liots to Crimeir.
1:44:56>> Who is not mentioned?
1:44:58the person who you described having the
1:45:00interaction with earlier and about who
1:45:02directed you supposedly over towards
1:45:05>> Crimeir
1:45:12Mr. didn't come with us. I said I went
1:45:16with Liu Klesk
1:45:22disputing that. It's merely that there's
1:45:23no reference at all to him having
1:45:25directed you along that journey in this
1:45:27extract, is there? And I think we can
1:45:30move on because you're not disputing
1:45:32that.
1:45:33>> Um, but you told the SPO on the basis of
1:45:36your brief interaction with Mr. Seli.
1:45:41know what I said then I abide by it now.
1:45:48This is a diary of someone else of
1:45:50churches.
1:45:52I am Ramise
1:45:55and I spoke about what was the reality
1:46:01then.
1:46:07But just to be very clear, you're not
1:46:08contesting that he's you're not saying
1:46:09that he is mentioned in that diary. I
1:46:11think we're very clear on that.
1:46:12>> Past an answer.
1:46:18>> You may answer
1:46:26>> perhaps repeat the question again, Mr.
1:46:27Roberts.
1:46:28>> Thank you, your honor. Uh yes, just to
1:46:30be very clear for the record, you're not
1:46:32saying that he is mentioned in that
1:46:34extract of the diary, are you? Mr.
1:46:43>> He should Why should he be mentioned? It
1:46:47was me who had that letter that gave to
1:46:49Mr. Salimi.
1:46:51>> Answer yes or no to a question asking
1:46:53for a yes or no answer.
1:47:02>> How can I say? Can you repeat once again
1:47:04so that I can say yes or no?
1:47:08>> Ma'am,
1:47:09>> this person is hasn't mentioned him. I
1:47:12mentioned him.
1:47:16>> Um, now you told the SPO on the basis of
1:47:19your what you described as as a brief
1:47:22interaction with Mr. Selimi that he was
1:47:25the main guy in Lots
1:47:28and that's uh part one. So P115
1:47:3311115.1
1:47:36uh page 32.
1:47:39Now to be clear
1:47:41is your evidence that this was your
1:47:43impression of Mr. Selimi based on that
1:47:48solely on that brief interaction with
1:47:50him in Liots in April 1998.
1:47:55>> Yeah. No,
1:47:58since you are putting me the question in
1:48:00that way, it was Amula that sent me to
1:48:06Salimi. He was the higher up person if
1:48:09you are asking me that.
1:48:12>> My question or my what I'm interested in
1:48:16is
1:48:18is your understanding that Mr. Selimi
1:48:20was the main guy in Liots
1:48:23based on the fact that Mr. Sula sent you
1:48:27to him?
1:48:36>> Yes.
1:48:39>> The fact that he sent me to Rajimi to
1:48:42give that letter to him,
1:48:46it was clear that he was a main guy,
1:48:49that he was responsible there.
1:48:52basis for your understanding of this.
1:48:59>> Not only that, I went there, stayed
1:49:03there and they instructed me to go to
1:49:06Glimmer.
1:49:08So, it was very well organized. It was
1:49:11not that like you can go anywhere you
1:49:14like. You couldn't go anywhere. You
1:49:16couldn't enter anywhere. It was
1:49:18everything was well organized from the
1:49:20beginning.
1:49:21And he never told you he was the main
1:49:23guy in Lots in this brief interaction,
1:49:25did he?
1:49:28>> When I say he, I mean Mr.
1:49:33>> He didn't need to tell me that because I
1:49:37went to him.
1:49:40Somebody else sent me to him. I already
1:49:43mentioned that earlier. I don't know why
1:49:46you are dwelling on that.
1:49:48>> If Mr. had sent you to anyone else,
1:49:50would you have believed that they were
1:49:52the main guy?
1:49:58>> Wherever he would have sent me,
1:50:02I would have gone wherever Aamsura sent
1:50:05me. It was a military rule
1:50:11to give that letter to, you would have
1:50:13believed they were the main guy because
1:50:15you were being told to give that letter
1:50:17to them. Is is that right?
1:50:23>> Not my
1:50:24>> Yes. Yes.
1:50:26>> And you never saw Mr. Selimi again after
1:50:28that interaction. Is that right?
1:50:33>> No.
1:50:33>> Never.
1:50:36>> For sure that he was a member of the
1:50:38general staff at any point.
1:50:40That's what you told the SPO. Is that
1:50:43correct?
1:50:48That's right.
1:50:51From that time on, I had to deal with
1:50:53Fat Lima with the brigade.
1:50:57I was organized in the bat and I didn't
1:51:01know anything about the general stuff.
1:51:04That's correct.
1:51:23Um,
1:51:30okay. Now, Lots was quite important as a
1:51:33as a location, wasn't it? It's the first
1:51:35port of call that many people from
1:51:38Albania would stop at on the way in.
1:51:41from Kosovo.
1:51:50>> Yes, that's what they said.
1:51:53I stayed for a very brief time in Liots.
1:51:58That was how it was at the beginning.
1:52:02>> And how long did you actually stay
1:52:03there? Was it one night?
1:52:07>> Yeah.
1:52:09Mushroom? No, I think about two weeks
1:52:16I took them soldiers and went to sketch
1:52:19crime
1:52:24>> some two weeks. I think this process
1:52:26lasted.
1:52:30Now
1:52:32on the basis of this interaction,
1:52:35you told the SPO that you and I I'll
1:52:38quote the question and answer considered
1:52:41that Reep Selimi was in charge for the
1:52:43KA in Kosovo at that time.
1:52:47Is that still your evidence?
1:52:54Yes, that's how I thought then.
1:52:58>> Never obviously told or had any direct
1:53:02information that that was the case. This
1:53:03is based on your impression after being
1:53:06sent to him by Azimula.
1:53:09Is that correct?
1:53:16>> That was the rule then. I said already
1:53:19you couldn't go as you liked. You had to
1:53:22go through the representatives.
1:53:27I had to write an application in Argal
1:53:31to enter Kosovo and to join the war. My
1:53:34application was accepted. I came to
1:53:37Tyrana. From Tyrana to Likos, from Liot
1:53:41to Glattier.
1:53:45That's how it happened.
1:53:48It was not like everybody could come at
1:53:52their relation. There were rules.
1:53:55>> Yes, I understand there were rules.
1:53:59>> But my question was
1:54:02whether your assertion or your uh
1:54:05deduction or assumption that he was in
1:54:08charge for the KA in Kosovo was based
1:54:11purely just on that short interaction.
1:54:16again. Yes or no if you can.
1:54:23>> Yes, of course.
1:54:27>> I came with a letter with a document
1:54:32of what else you were aware of in uh
1:54:36Kosovo at the time.
1:54:39You didn't visit the other zones, did
1:54:41you? At that stage, the Dukajin zone,
1:54:45lap zone, anywhere else, if there were
1:54:47indeed zones at that point.
1:54:51>> Yo, no.
1:54:54>> No, never.
1:54:56>> Or have any other knowledge of of other
1:55:00potential Kosovo leaders at that point
1:55:02in any of those zones either? Did
1:55:04>> you?
1:55:11>> No, I didn't.
1:55:13I already told you. I served at Bri the
1:55:18brigade. That's where I reported. Not
1:55:20higher up. Never.
1:55:24>> Is is that you don't understand or have
1:55:26any knowledge? Sorry, not understand.
1:55:28You don't have any evidence in relation
1:55:30to Mr. Selimi's authority or
1:55:32relationship with anyone else outside of
1:55:36Lots based on that very brief
1:55:38interaction you had with him there
1:55:43not come
1:55:44>> at that time. No.
1:55:54So I would suggest to you on the basis
1:55:57of that that you were not justified in
1:56:02any way in suggesting that he was the
1:56:04leader of the KLA throughout Kosovo.
1:56:07Would you accept that?
1:56:13you.
1:56:16>> I said that at the beginning when I came
1:56:22and for that I am responsible
1:56:26later on. I had no information. I never
1:56:30met him. What can I say more
1:56:34about other things? There are other
1:56:36people that can speak.
1:56:40Finish up on this. Had you heard of him
1:56:42before you entered Kosovo
1:56:44at all based on his relationship with
1:56:48Adam Yashari or any other factors? Had
1:56:50you heard the name Rebeli in in the in
1:56:53the press?
1:56:59>> I didn't read a lot the press. I there
1:57:03is nothing I can say. I have no answer
1:57:06for that.
1:57:07>> Heard of him? You didn't know he'd been
1:57:09indicted already or was already well
1:57:12known within Kosovo?
1:57:19>> I don't remember. A long time has
1:57:22passed. I don't remember to have heard
1:57:24anything about him.
1:57:27If there was something in relation to
1:57:29him, you can read that in newspapers.
1:57:32>> Okay. Um, now your evidence is that you
1:57:37moved on with Mr. Limi
1:57:40over to Kletchka
1:57:43and then and then down to Cromier.
1:57:46>> Yes.
1:57:49>> Now, your evidence to the SPO was that
1:57:51Mr. Selimi told you that you're to
1:57:54report your work to me. You're to come
1:57:56and tell me how many soldiers you have
1:57:58and what they're doing.
1:58:06It is very true. I remember but I never
1:58:09did report to him because we agreed with
1:58:12Fatmir that I should report to him to
1:58:15Fatmir. Namely, Fatmir should report to
1:58:18Reabel. Whether he did that or not, I
1:58:21don't know. But from the beginning, we
1:58:24reported how many soldiers were there,
1:58:29what their health was like, and so on.
1:58:33But not to sali to Fatmir Limi. I abide
1:58:36by the same things I said earlier.
1:58:40>> Never actually reported to Rajep Salimi
1:58:43and and you have no idea if Fatir Limi
1:58:45at any point ever did report anything
1:58:48that you told him to reepsimi.
1:58:50>> It sucked.
1:58:51>> Correct.
1:58:53>> Long way away from Liots, is it not? How
1:58:57long would it take you to walk from one
1:58:59to the other or how long did your
1:59:00journey take you actually to go from
1:59:02Liots all the way to Cromier?
1:59:07>> I don't remember but it is far very far
1:59:11>> way reasonable or possible for miss for
1:59:14you to have reported directly to Mr.
1:59:16at all. Would it not? Would it?
1:59:23>> I said to you, I never reported to him
1:59:25that I did report to Fatmir Limi and I
1:59:29never saw Reel me ever after.
1:59:33>> I was merely asking it would not have
1:59:35been easy or logical for you to have
1:59:38reported to him given that distance,
1:59:40would it?
1:59:40>> Not it would wouldn't be logical
1:59:44at the beginning. I reported also to
1:59:47Shukri Buouya at the very start
1:59:51and he to Fatmir. So I was mostly
1:59:55engaged with the digging of trenches and
1:59:57preparations for war.
2:00:01>> It was impossible for me to
2:00:06Fatmir was at a higher position. So
2:00:10whether he did report or not this I
2:00:12don't know and I'm not interested in
2:00:15that.
2:00:18>> You didn't have a satellite phone at all
2:00:22at that stage either did you a
2:00:24telephone?
2:00:25>> No neither phone nor any radio nothing.
2:00:31>> Sorry.
2:00:35Do you want to complete your answer or
2:00:37have you finished?
2:00:41I finished
2:00:43>> possible for you to have reported to him
2:00:45even had you wanted to when I said to
2:00:47him to Mr.
2:00:48in
2:00:54>> I already said and I don't think we need
2:00:57to dwell on that. I never reported to
2:00:59him and I could not report to him and I
2:01:02was not in a position to report to
2:01:09>> agreed with Mr. uh Limi that you would
2:01:12report to him. You didn't obviously
2:01:15check with Mr. telling me that this was
2:01:17fine, was it? Did you?
2:01:21>> Yeah.
2:01:22>> No. No.
2:01:26>> Ignoring or changing what had been told
2:01:29to you by Mr.
2:01:30>> Selini,
2:01:38>> I listen.
2:01:40I knew that Fatmir is at a higher
2:01:44position and he said to me I have to
2:01:47deal with he told me you don't have
2:01:50anything to do with that and so after
2:01:53that I reported to him I believed that
2:01:56he was on higher position and that he to
2:01:59report dutifully where he should
2:02:03at the time was was in charge of units
2:02:09down in Klitschka.
2:02:11Uh Paul,
2:02:13>> yes.
2:02:15>> For changing this supposed instruction
2:02:19that you'd been given by the most uh
2:02:23powerful KLA person in Kosovo. Is that
2:02:25right?
2:02:30>> I'm not saying that he changed that. I
2:02:33don't know. I know only that I reported
2:02:36to him.
2:02:51Now, you did mention reporting to Mr.
2:02:55Limi when you were down in Crimeir
2:03:00and
2:03:04to both.
2:03:07>> Now, in these meetings, these supposed
2:03:11regular meetings, you were very clear
2:03:13with the SPO that there was never any
2:03:16mention of any prison in Kletchka at any
2:03:20of these meetings. Is that right,
2:03:25>> never? Never.
2:03:29>> And you only found out about this well
2:03:32after the war. Is that right?
2:03:37>> Yes. Correct.
2:03:40>> Entire time that you were visiting
2:03:42Kletchkar on a regular basis, you you
2:03:44never saw a prison there or had any
2:03:46knowledge that there was a prison in
2:03:48that location.
2:03:55I went to for the weekly meetings
2:04:01and nobody mentioned any prison only
2:04:04after the war.
2:04:11>> What prison are you talking about?
2:04:16>> Knew about one. I just want to be clear.
2:04:18When you were going to Kletchkar on a
2:04:20regular basis, you never saw one a
2:04:22prison yourself there, did you?
2:04:31>> I went there, as I said, once a week and
2:04:33I never saw a prison.
2:04:36I heard about the prisoning after the
2:04:39war
2:04:41>> and we have nothing to do with that
2:04:44supposed prison.
2:04:48I want to ask you some questions about
2:04:49your knowledge or relationship with the
2:04:51general staff. Um,
2:04:57you told the SPBO you didn't know what
2:04:59the difference was between the central
2:05:01or the general staff, did you?
2:05:11>> It's a mistake. Are you wrong?
2:05:16Is it
2:05:16>> initially we thought it was called
2:05:19central staff and then general staff
2:05:22that's where you are wrong.
2:05:25>> Well, you told the SPO and this is part
2:05:278 page 4. So that's uh P115.8
2:05:34uh question. What's the difference
2:05:36between the central staff and the
2:05:37general staff? Your answer was I don't
2:05:39know.
2:05:40>> Look at
2:05:41>> I don't know. I never knew it.
2:05:46You were never informed who was in the
2:05:48general staff, were you?
2:05:53>> Yeah.
2:05:54>> No.
2:05:56>> Meeting with the general staff
2:05:59and you weren't a member of the general
2:06:00staff as you told the SPO.
2:06:03>> Those are two questions.
2:06:04>> I will break them down, your honor.
2:06:06Thank you. Uh,
2:06:09well, I was actually, to be honest,
2:06:10quoting the two questions that were
2:06:11given by the prosecution in in in the
2:06:13interview. So maybe I'll read that out.
2:06:16So in your SPO interview, uh so that's
2:06:20P115.2
2:06:23page 12.
2:06:26Uh question, did you ever attend
2:06:28briefings or orders that were given by
2:06:30the general staff in Lots?
2:06:32Uh answer, no, I was never in a meeting
2:06:35with the general staff. I wasn't a
2:06:37member of the staff. And that's correct,
2:06:39isn't it?
2:06:44Yes.
2:06:47>> Whatever is written there is accurate. I
2:06:51do not contest that
2:06:53>> you weren't in touch with the staff and
2:06:55you only visited a couple of times when
2:06:58it moved to Diviak which would have been
2:07:00towards the end of 1998.
2:07:08>> Correct.
2:07:10close to but separate from Klitschka
2:07:17>> near Kletchan adjacent to it.
2:07:21>> It's a separate location is it not
2:07:28>> normal?
2:07:29>> Yes.
2:07:31On one side was a general staff, on the
2:07:34other side was a brigade.
2:07:37As you told the SPO, up until the end of
2:07:391998, it was very difficult to
2:07:41communicate with the general staff and
2:07:44this only improved when they went to
2:07:46Dyak.
2:07:49>> Do you recall telling the SPA that
2:07:56>> I may have said that I don't remember,
2:07:59but if it's written there, then I have
2:08:01said it.
2:08:02>> This was around about the time you went
2:08:04to Albania, wasn't it? He left in early
2:08:08to mid January I think isn't it? Is that
2:08:11correct
2:08:14me?
2:08:15>> Yeah. At the middle of January
2:08:20>> staff would have been when you were
2:08:22mostly not there in Kosovo anymore
2:08:25because you'd been to Albania
2:08:32once again please. What did you mean by
2:08:34communications?
2:08:36asked by the SPO about communications
2:08:40with the SPO, sorry, communications with
2:08:42the general staff. And in your
2:08:44interview,
2:08:46so this is uh 111 P115.3
2:08:50page 13,
2:08:52you stated there in the end of 1998 when
2:08:55they moved to Diviak, they were much
2:08:57more easy to communicate with.
2:09:02Now
2:09:04my suggestion is that any improvements
2:09:06in communication with the general staff
2:09:08that happened at that stage were when
2:09:10you were going to Albania.
2:09:13Is that fair?
2:09:17>> So I was given permission by Zer to
2:09:21travel to Albania.
2:09:23So it was an order by Muslim Zabi, the
2:09:26chief of the general staff and Haj, the
2:09:29brigade commander, and I set off to
2:09:31Albania. And as I said earlier, there
2:09:35was no reason for me to communicate with
2:09:38the general staff when I was battalion
2:09:40commander. It was only when I received
2:09:42the instruction to go to Albania and I
2:09:45received it from them. Other than that,
2:09:48I I do not know.
2:09:52of whether those communications did
2:09:54improve because you didn't need to
2:09:55communicate after that point. Is that
2:09:57right
2:10:00with the general staff?
2:10:04Do you thought this
2:10:05>> I am telling you for quite a few uh
2:10:09times that I didn't have any possibility
2:10:12to speak or communicate with the general
2:10:15staff. I had no knowledge of that
2:10:18>> that the communications improved. That's
2:10:19something of which you didn't have
2:10:21direct knowledge. That's the point I'm
2:10:22trying to get to.
2:10:25Just trying to understand the basis of
2:10:26your assertion that the communication's
2:10:29improved.
2:10:36>> I never communicated with them. I do not
2:10:39know how that word communication has
2:10:43come about or has been left there. I did
2:10:45not communicate with them. Neither did I
2:10:48know all of the members of their general
2:10:50staff or the positions they held. We
2:10:52knew that Aamsula was the commander
2:10:55general and that was it.
2:11:01>> Supposed orders given in the name of the
2:11:03general staff. Uh you told the SPO that
2:11:07that Mr. Limi gave orders in the name of
2:11:10the general staff when he was the
2:11:12brigade commander but you weren't able
2:11:15to remember any special or significant
2:11:17ones
2:11:22>> and you only received sorry do you
2:11:24recall telling the SBI that
2:11:26>> for
2:11:28>> yes I have said that so in the meetings
2:11:31you would say it's in the name of the
2:11:33general staff and then of course what
2:11:37did we know whether it was on his own
2:11:40relation or indeed in the name of the
2:11:42general staff. But what I've said there
2:11:44is what I've said
2:11:47in you only received orders or or or
2:11:51directions or instructions from the
2:11:53brigade command and not directly from
2:11:55the general staff. So you had no way of
2:11:57knowing if they did come from the
2:11:58general staff or not.
2:12:06Yes, sir.
2:12:08>> Correct.
2:12:10>> Saw Mr. Limai communicating with the
2:12:12general staff. So, you don't have any
2:12:14personal knowledge of whether these
2:12:16orders did in fact come from the general
2:12:18staff. That's what you told the SPO.
2:12:22Um,
2:12:27>> well, I couldn't one couldn't see it.
2:12:29Could could one I mean it was wartime
2:12:33but yes, it's what have said earlier.
2:12:39Now, saying that orders came from the
2:12:41general staff would be one way uh would
2:12:44it not of making them seem more
2:12:46important, giving them greater
2:12:48authority.
2:12:59>> Um, yes, of course.
2:13:04told the SPO that you thought Mr. Limi
2:13:06was using the name of the general staff
2:13:08to make his orders or his instructions
2:13:11seem more important.
2:13:17Is that fair?
2:13:22>> Yes. With more authority. It was my
2:13:24view. This is what I thought
2:13:28to Shukri Buouya, didn't you? when he uh
2:13:31gave you an order at the end of July to
2:13:34withdraw troops to Linay.
2:13:37I apologize for my pronunciation
2:13:51>> from Yes. The order was to withdraw the
2:13:56battalion fighters to withdraw from the
2:13:58areas.
2:14:00>> That was an order from the general
2:14:02staff.
2:14:07>> After the withdrawal, when I met him and
2:14:10I asked him who gave the order, he said
2:14:13I was only enforcing the order that came
2:14:15from the general staff. This is what he
2:14:18said to me in front of the soldiers back
2:14:20then.
2:14:21So, but I don't think it was the general
2:14:24staff who gave that order.
2:14:29>> Yes, I think that's what you told the
2:14:30ICTY that you didn't think he received
2:14:32the order from the general staff.
2:14:38>> And I think when you uh later on were
2:14:43told by the general staff that they
2:14:45hadn't given the order. Is that right?
2:14:56After a meeting when they came to us
2:14:59they said we didn't do this or well it's
2:15:03not like they would account to me but we
2:15:06realized that it was Shukri Buouya who
2:15:08had acted on his own
2:15:12>> still felt even though you were told it
2:15:13was an order from the general staff you
2:15:15still felt that you were able to ignore
2:15:18this order from Shikuya
2:15:27y.
2:15:28>> No,
2:15:30there was nowhere for us to go because
2:15:33we were armed.
2:15:36Where could we go?
2:15:39So after the withdrawal, we all got
2:15:42together, the soldiers
2:15:46and then we went to the positions
2:15:50>> because we didn't have anywhere to go.
2:15:54You were right or or wrong in in how you
2:15:58responded to that.
2:16:00But my point is that Shukuya gave you an
2:16:03order supposedly in the name of the
2:16:06general staff and and you as a battalion
2:16:08commander felt that you were able not to
2:16:11follow that.
2:16:12>> Please
2:16:18>> please you are wrong. Your question is
2:16:21wrong. So he told the soldiers on the
2:16:24front line withdraw.
2:16:27So withdraw no longer the KLA. So then
2:16:31we the soldiers got together
2:16:34and we decided
2:16:36not to leave but it was just a moment we
2:16:40were there on the front line when he
2:16:43came over that I asked him who gave the
2:16:45order. He said, "I enforce the order of
2:16:48the general staff."
2:16:51And he walked off and we were stuck
2:16:54there in We didn't have anywhere to go.
2:16:58This wasn't about an order. It was
2:17:00wartime. You probably can't understand
2:17:03what being there in wartime is like. We
2:17:05were there on our own. And then very
2:17:07briefly, quite quickly, I would say, um,
2:17:10other people came over. We had a
2:17:13meeting. They said, "Carry on with the
2:17:15war. everything is fine because of
2:17:18course I had to enforce the order but it
2:17:22was wartime and we were all over the
2:17:24place
2:17:26so yes
2:17:28>> describe blame to you it's just to try
2:17:30and understand exactly the sequence of
2:17:32events
2:17:34um and so he did tell you at the time
2:17:37Shukri Buuy that it was an order from
2:17:40the general staff but you carried on not
2:17:44completing it at the at that stage.
2:17:46That's right, isn't it?
2:17:47>> And not just you. I mean you
2:17:49collectively, you and your soldiers.
2:17:51>> No, no, please. It's not that way. We
2:17:55were there in the middle of nowhere as
2:17:58it were. Like we didn't have a command.
2:18:01We didn't have anywhere to go. Like
2:18:03where would we go for a certain amount
2:18:06of time? We were just there. Although
2:18:08briefly they did come over and we all
2:18:11got together again. So we were just
2:18:13stuck there. If you see I think about a
2:18:16week um we had no command. There was no
2:18:19command over us. We were just um there
2:18:23uh stranded just like you know chicks
2:18:25with um no chicken or mother to u be
2:18:29there for them. And it's basically what
2:18:32happens to the chicks when mother
2:18:35chicken is no longer there. That's what
2:18:37we were like stranded.
2:18:41Is that what you're saying? Above you,
2:18:44if you were stranded, there was no
2:18:46command structure at this stage.
2:18:49>> The
2:18:51do for about two weeks we were there. We
2:18:55were all over the place. We were on on
2:18:57our own. Shukri was somewhere else. Fir
2:19:00elsewhere. I and some other soldiers
2:19:02were there. And then we got together
2:19:04again. We joined forces. This is what
2:19:07I'm saying. And this sort of things
2:19:08happens in wartime.
2:19:12Do you believe there are other orders
2:19:14that you were issued or given by Fat
2:19:17Limi or or Shuku Bouya or directions
2:19:21that were also not from the general
2:19:24staff
2:19:25but were told to you were in the name of
2:19:27the general staff?
2:19:36There weren't what I mentioned already
2:19:38like sometimes in in meetings like if
2:19:42they wanted to ascribe more authority
2:19:45sometimes would mention them of course
2:19:48for it to carry more weight for us for
2:19:50it to be more credible I don't know what
2:19:52can I say but it's his opinion you could
2:19:55ask him yourself
2:19:58but otherwise the hierarchy was quite
2:20:00fine battalion brigade
2:20:03>> well let's go to your battalion because
2:20:04I think you're very clear and I think
2:20:06this is important in relation to a
2:20:09question you were asked by the
2:20:10prosecution. You are only able to talk
2:20:13about your battalion. You're you're you
2:20:15accept that don't you
2:20:17>> in terms of any
2:20:18>> Yes.
2:20:20>> Yes. Yes.
2:20:22>> battalion. And and how many people were
2:20:25there in your battalion
2:20:27>> in in May, June or later, if it was
2:20:31indeed a battalion at that point?
2:20:40Everything has been written down
2:20:42actually it's it was part of the
2:20:45process.
2:20:48I do not wish to make any mistakes
2:20:53because so much time has passed since
2:20:55then but my statement is has been
2:20:58written down so it's there to be read.
2:21:02>> Yeah. So my witness statements have
2:21:04already been given.
2:21:06>> So we can understand exactly the limits
2:21:09and the scope of your statement. When
2:21:12you talk about things like your permits
2:21:15that you issued or the regulations of
2:21:20the organization of the army's internal
2:21:22life, for example, you're talking about
2:21:24how you understood that to operate
2:21:27within your battalion
2:21:29or within your unit.
2:21:32Is that fair? And you don't want to
2:21:34speculate beyond that?
2:21:44>> Whatever happened with us happened
2:21:46elsewhere. We were no different to any
2:21:48others.
2:21:51What happened in our battalion happened
2:21:54in other battalions like the permit for
2:21:56instance for a soldier to go to the
2:21:59brigade. So they needed a travel permit.
2:22:03So for instance for 4 hours. So they
2:22:06would have to travel during that uh
2:22:08timeline those 4 hours. So our movements
2:22:11were um controlled and it wasn't just
2:22:14with us. The four battalions were going
2:22:16through the same oceans.
2:22:18But of course I spoke in terms of what
2:22:21happened to our battalion and my work.
2:22:23only have personal knowledge of what
2:22:25happened in your battalion
2:22:29and you you assume the same thing
2:22:31happened in other battalions but you
2:22:33don't directly have knowledge of that.
2:22:35Is that fair?
2:22:38>> Not much is
2:22:39>> well yeah obviously
2:22:43>> yes I don't have knowledge of
2:22:47>> Sorry I cut you off. Yes. Yes I don't
2:22:49have knowledge of Can you just complete
2:22:52your answer? That was my fault.
2:22:56>> Scamper.
2:22:57>> Well, I don't have knowledge of other
2:22:59battalions
2:23:02>> or any further up supposedly in the
2:23:05chain, other brigades and certainly not
2:23:08other zones.
2:23:11You accept that, don't you?
2:23:17>> I don't have knowledge. No.
2:23:23Um, and indeed even on the the permits,
2:23:26I think you said that you as a battalion
2:23:28commander had a a more strict
2:23:32um idea of not allowing people to travel
2:23:35in and out at night.
2:23:38Do you recall that
2:23:49>> because of security reasons? So yes,
2:23:53that's true. So the idea was
2:23:58that uh at night security checks would
2:24:01be different so that nobody would be
2:24:05able to come in.
2:24:07the enemy or somebody else to the
2:24:11particular zone that we uh controlled
2:24:14where the battalion was. So yes, it's
2:24:16correct indeed
2:24:20>> because uh we needed to be able to know
2:24:23that we kept uh the movements of people
2:24:26under tracks and so on
2:24:31>> and and I believe you said that Mr. Limi
2:24:34criticized you for this rule, but he
2:24:36didn't order you to stop it or change
2:24:39it, did he?
2:24:40>> Uh,
2:24:44yo. Uh,
2:24:46>> no.
2:24:50Fatimir
2:24:52was prone to
2:24:55seeming seemingly be uh more
2:24:58interesting, more important in meetings
2:25:00that he indeed was somebody important
2:25:02and that of course I had to enforce his
2:25:05orders.
2:25:09>> Well, you say you have to enforce his
2:25:10orders, but you did tell the SPO
2:25:12specifically
2:25:14about an order from Mr. Limi um that you
2:25:18ignored.
2:25:23which one for instance uh I can take you
2:25:26to your SPO interview. So that's um
2:25:29P1115.2
2:25:32page 44 and I'll just read out the
2:25:35exchange
2:25:37uh question from the SPO in relation to
2:25:40Mr. Limi. So, did he was that an order
2:25:44that he gave you to go to hide your
2:25:46uniforms and weapons?
2:25:49Um, answer. He gave that order to the
2:25:51first battalion and I opposed that order
2:25:53and I told him I told them put your
2:25:56uniforms back on and pick up your
2:25:58weapons and I and in our battalion we
2:26:01violated that order. Just wait till I
2:26:04finish, please. We never hid our weapons
2:26:07or uniforms.
2:26:09Uh, question. Was that a uniform? Was
2:26:12that an order that had Was that an order
2:26:15that applied to your battalion as well?
2:26:19Answer, of course. Yeah, because he was
2:26:22the brigade commander. So, in this
2:26:24situation, you're describing a specific
2:26:27order from Mr. Limi that you as a
2:26:29battalion commander decided to ignore.
2:26:34Is that correct?
2:26:38Yeah. Uh
2:26:40>> well listen this was the second
2:26:43offensive
2:26:46when in zone in first the first company
2:26:49in Shah Fatmir Limi had told them and it
2:26:54was the soldiers who reported this. I
2:26:56didn't actually hear this myself. Fatmir
2:26:59Limai had asked them had told them
2:27:00rather to hide the uniforms and weapons
2:27:03because the Red Cross is waiting for us.
2:27:05Surrender yourselves.
2:27:07And then
2:27:10I asked the soldiers, what do you mean
2:27:12surrender? It's the only case. When I
2:27:15said we have to fight to the end
2:27:18until death. So
2:27:24even though I wasn't told this by him
2:27:26directly, I told the soldiers that we
2:27:30are fighting to the end as if this order
2:27:34hadn't actually come in.
2:27:38And then it was two weeks or a month
2:27:40later that
2:27:43Fatmir came over again
2:27:46as a brigade commander yet again and we
2:27:49continued doing what we were doing and
2:27:52again we had to listen to him, respect
2:27:54him and this is it. So I do not know why
2:27:58you need this particular case somehow
2:28:00you mention it but this was at war time
2:28:02and it's like you're telling me to bang
2:28:04my head against the wall and you won't
2:28:07listen to them will you so it was just
2:28:09like that hide your weapons and your
2:28:12uniforms so it's the only case really so
2:28:15I do not know why this
2:28:21>> shria as well that we discussed earlier
2:28:23but the point I'm making is that it was
2:28:25an order that was clearly supposed to be
2:28:28followed. And for legitimate reasons,
2:28:30please wait till I finish the question.
2:28:32For entirely legitimate reasons, you
2:28:35didn't feel that you needed to follow
2:28:37that order.
2:28:39A simple yes or a no. I understand the
2:28:42explanation, but you didn't feel you
2:28:44needed to follow the order to put down
2:28:46your weapons. That's right, isn't it?
2:28:48>> Uh, Nam,
2:28:50>> listen.
2:28:56That order first of all had perhaps to
2:28:59have been sent to us in writing and we
2:29:01were at the front line and as I already
2:29:04mentioned it isn't about a yes or no. I
2:29:07have to explain that we were stranded
2:29:10there on the front line in the forest as
2:29:12it happens and we had to fight. You
2:29:14can't you couldn't really enforce that
2:29:16order and then where where did you go?
2:29:18Where would you go? It's like a a bit of
2:29:20a silly question you're asking me really
2:29:23because because it's it's never been the
2:29:28case that I haven't enforced their order
2:29:33>> order. So that's the case, isn't it? In
2:29:35that situation, there was no ability to
2:29:37enforce orders from a brigade commander
2:29:40down to a battalion commander such as
2:29:42yourself.
2:29:42>> Please, please just wait. Sorry. Please
2:29:44just wait a short amount of time after
2:29:47my question so your answer can be
2:29:49recorded. Now you said you couldn't
2:29:52really enforce that order and that was
2:29:54the situation, wasn't it? An order from
2:29:56a brigade commander from Mr. Limi
2:29:59couldn't be enforced at that stage. You
2:30:01accept that, don't you?
2:30:09>> This was because of the time we were at.
2:30:13We couldn't enforce it. We were in
2:30:15wartime. Otherwise,
2:30:18um we always enforced orders. This was
2:30:20the only case. Not that we didn't want
2:30:22to, but we couldn't because
2:30:26what happens? What? We would just go to
2:30:28the Serbian forces. So, this was what it
2:30:31was about. We couldn't enforce it. Not
2:30:33that we didn't want to enforce it.
2:30:38Now
2:30:41even within your battalion
2:30:44I think you accepted
2:30:47that only around 80% of your soldiers
2:30:50reported to you. So this is your SPO
2:30:54interview.
2:30:55So that's P1115.7
2:30:59page 7.
2:31:01Um I'll just read out what you said
2:31:05>> so you're clear. I couldn't be
2:31:07everywhere, but the places I wasn't, I
2:31:09would get a report from the people who
2:31:11were there. Maybe not everybody reported
2:31:13all the time to me, but I got lots of
2:31:15reports. Maybe 80% of the soldiers
2:31:19reported to me and then I reported to
2:31:22the brigade. So, you're accepting that
2:31:24even within your own battalion, which
2:31:26you've considered to be very, please
2:31:28wait. which you considered to be very
2:31:31organized.
2:31:3320% of your soldiers were not reporting
2:31:35to you and were not following what you
2:31:37were directing them to do. Is that fair?
2:31:47>> I said that approximately 80% could be
2:31:51kept under tabs, but 20% could be sort
2:31:55of even hiding and not reporting.
2:31:58Not that they wouldn't report,
2:32:01but you couldn't keep everybody under
2:32:04tabs if you understand me correctly.
2:32:07>> Didn't have the ability to exercise
2:32:09control over people within your
2:32:10battalion.
2:32:13>> Is that is that fair?
2:32:16>> Well, not everyone. So 80% you could,
2:32:19but 20% no. It was wartime. And even if
2:32:23it wasn't wartime in a a given state,
2:32:27you can't keep tabs under every under
2:32:30everyone even in liberty and freedom
2:32:35>> earlier than I had planned. But I think
2:32:36that's the end of my questions now.
2:32:38Thank you.
2:32:39>> Thank you.
2:32:39>> Thank you, witness,
2:32:41>> Mr. Mr. Titch.
2:32:50>> Thank you, Mr. President.
2:32:52Witness, good afternoon. My name is Luca
2:32:54Mishitich. I am counsel for M.
2:32:57>> Good afternoon.
2:32:58>> Questions for you.
2:33:01>> Um, witness, you in your evidence recall
2:33:06having uh or meeting with Mr. Tachi on
2:33:09three instances and two of those were
2:33:12when you say you saw him in Cromier. Is
2:33:14that correct,
2:33:18Paul?
2:33:18>> Yes.
2:33:22When you would visit the KLA
2:33:24headquarters in Diviak, you do not
2:33:26recall seeing Mr. Thachi there. Correct.
2:33:33>> I don't remember. It could have been
2:33:35that I've seen him, but I don't recall
2:33:36having seen him.
2:33:39And I didn't go often to Dark. I only
2:33:43went there for the permit.
2:33:46>> Um, you say you met with Mr. That in kum
2:33:50before entering Kosovo is that correct?
2:33:55>> Oh
2:33:55>> yes it is.
2:33:58>> Did you know who Mr. Thachi was?
2:34:03>> You
2:34:03>> no I didn't
2:34:07>> and
2:34:11how was Mr. thought she introduced to
2:34:14you
2:34:20>> when do you mean
2:34:25>> in K
2:34:28as not having a position as such? I
2:34:31don't know of any positions he held
2:34:35>> that you saw.
2:34:42We were going in at the time we were
2:34:45preparing to go in with Aamsula
2:34:50and that's where we met
2:34:53and uh we understood it was Hashim I
2:34:56don't know how to explain it really
2:34:59there was nothing special about about
2:35:02him he was just like the rest of us
2:35:04soldiers fighters
2:35:09>> how did you come to understand that it
2:35:10was Hashimi
2:35:16Oh, it's a long time. I don't know how
2:35:18to explain it to be honest. I don't know
2:35:20how to explain it. Maybe somebody said
2:35:24whether it was or somebody else who said
2:35:26that, but I can't remember anything
2:35:29special about that moment.
2:35:32>> Um,
2:35:35now you also say that you encountered
2:35:37Mr. Achi once
2:35:40during a visit of the general staff to
2:35:42Cromier in relation to Shukri Buouya's
2:35:45decision to withdraw troops during the
2:35:46battle of La Pushnik. Correct.
2:35:59>> So after Shukri issued the order then
2:36:03they came to Crimeir. Yes, it was
2:36:05afterwards
2:36:07>> then uh in the beginning of August 1998.
2:36:15>> Yes. Uh something like that. I couldn't
2:36:17possibly tell you the date exactly.
2:36:20>> Interview with the SPO you say uh and
2:36:23this is at P115.4
2:36:27page 8 uh sorry page 10 in the English
2:36:30line 16 to 25. You say it was in Cromier
2:36:35for sure. It would have been in August,
2:36:36the beginning of August.
2:36:39Question of 98. Answer. Yes.
2:36:44>> Yes. 1998.
2:36:46>> Stand by the evidence that is for sure
2:36:48was in the beginning of August.
2:36:58I cannot remember the exact date but it
2:37:02was round that time but I cannot tell
2:37:05you the exact date. I did not take note
2:37:07of it but they came over and that's the
2:37:11truth in terms of a date. I cannot
2:37:14provide you a date.
2:37:17>> Paul that the situation in Cromier at
2:37:19the time was a bad situation because the
2:37:22Serbs were shelling
2:37:25around that time.
2:37:26>> Po. Yes. Yes.
2:37:31>> Yes.
2:37:36>> At this encounter with u members of the
2:37:39general staff including Mr. Thachi,
2:37:41neither Mr. Shukri Buouya nor Mr. Fatmir
2:37:45Limi were present when they had a
2:37:47discussion with you. Correct?
2:37:50>> No.
2:37:52>> Neither.
2:37:54>> No. if in fact they had come to Croy and
2:37:58were simply passing through Cromier
2:38:03in relation to what was happening
2:38:04concerning the offensive.
2:38:15Let let me ask a different question.
2:38:18Did you receive a an invitation or a
2:38:21summon or something to come meet with
2:38:22the general staff or was it just um it
2:38:26happened that you encountered them in
2:38:28Cromia?
2:38:32>> No, it happened. They came there. I
2:38:35didn't go to them. I didn't receive any
2:38:39invitation. They came to the battalion
2:38:42that is to the village where our
2:38:44headquarters was.
2:38:55I understand there's a an issue with the
2:38:58interpretation of of the witness's
2:39:00answer. Witness, let me let me ask you
2:39:04again. I understand that in Albanian you
2:39:06said that they accidentally
2:39:10arrived. Is that what you said?
2:39:16I didn't say accidentally. I said I
2:39:18don't know why they came. But after they
2:39:21came,
2:39:23I can tell you what we discussed.
2:39:28>> That there was no
2:39:32>> you can ask me whatever I know. I will
2:39:34answer.
2:39:35>> And my point was you didn't have a prior
2:39:37expectation. You weren't told in advance
2:39:40that you members of the general staff
2:39:42were coming to meet with you.
2:39:46No, no, no.
2:39:54And I believe you said that during this
2:39:56visit you seem to recall that Azamsula
2:39:59was the main person from the KA at the
2:40:01time. Is that correct,
2:40:07>> Paul?
2:40:08>> Yes.
2:40:10>> This is what they said.
2:40:13time is uh an encounter where you say
2:40:17that Mr. Thi you and Mr. Thachi met with
2:40:19a New York Times reporter named Mike
2:40:21Okconor. Is that correct?
2:40:28>> Michael Michael Connor.
2:40:30>> Mike O' Conor. Yes.
2:40:34I I'm not sure whether I met him before
2:40:37or after this meeting and we gave an
2:40:40interview.
2:40:42It's published in the newspaper. Even
2:40:44though I couldn't find it,
2:40:48the interview was given in my room where
2:40:51the command was stationed.
2:40:53>> Say, I'm not sure if I met him before or
2:40:56after this meeting. Who Who are you
2:40:57talking about? You're not sure who you
2:40:59met?
2:41:05>> I mean, Mr. Hashimi,
2:41:09>> Mr.
2:41:10before the meeting with Michael Connor.
2:41:15>> No, no, no. It's wrong. It's wrong.
2:41:18You've gotten it wrong. I don't know
2:41:22whether this meeting was before when
2:41:26they came
2:41:28or later. This is what I wanted to say.
2:41:34>> Meeting with M. Mike O' Conor. Was it
2:41:37your understanding that Mr. Tachi was
2:41:40the person in the KLA dealing with media
2:41:42at the time.
2:41:49>> Y
2:41:51>> no no
2:41:54why did I say that?
2:41:58>> Have an understanding that Mr.'s
2:42:00>> role in the KA was to deal with media
2:42:04such as the New York Times
2:42:07>> the
2:42:13To be honest, I didn't know what
2:42:16position Hashim had at the time. I knew
2:42:20only that he was at a higher position
2:42:23compared to me.
2:42:27But I didn't know anything that he was
2:42:28responsible for the media. I didn't know
2:42:31what his position was either.
2:42:35You were told by the SPO in your
2:42:37interview that there doesn't seem to be
2:42:39a
2:42:41a record of you being interviewed by the
2:42:44New York Times. And I'm wondering, did
2:42:47you go back since your SPO interview to
2:42:49check to see if you have a copy of this
2:42:51interview?
2:43:03I have seen it somewhere. Somebody told
2:43:06me he could find it. It was on the
2:43:10newspaper, but for the moment I don't
2:43:13have it, but you can find it.
2:43:18>> I don't know whether it was published on
2:43:21or I don't know.
2:43:23Um,
2:43:32now you said that this meeting in your
2:43:34SPO interview uh also took place at some
2:43:37point in August during the Serb
2:43:40offensive. Correct.
2:43:49>> It may be also after August. after
2:43:51August.
2:43:54>> Yes, it was an offensive. We were in a
2:43:58crisis. Then
2:44:02>> um witness, turning to a different
2:44:03topic, you are somewhat insistent in
2:44:07your testimony that the KA was very
2:44:09organized and had a military hierarchy.
2:44:12Correct.
2:44:20I'm saying from the battalion to the
2:44:23brigades. I can't say this for other
2:44:27structures. I have no information. I
2:44:30don't have the right to say anything.
2:44:35>> Discipline in your battalion.
2:44:46because I reported on a daily basis
2:44:52to the brigade on the work we did and
2:44:56once a week I participated in a meeting.
2:44:59I don't know what else you want me to
2:45:01say. Every day I reported on the work I
2:45:05did
2:45:07and in addition to that I went to the
2:45:10meeting of the brigade every week.
2:45:15Let's say a soldier in your battalion
2:45:19gets into a fight with another soldier
2:45:20in your battalion.
2:45:23>> How do you discipline the two soldiers?
2:45:31I believe you have been present here
2:45:34when we discussed earlier that this was
2:45:38the responsibility of the military
2:45:41police because we had the
2:45:45police unit and it was a brigade
2:45:49commander that dealt with that not we we
2:45:51were doing with oper operative tasks.
2:45:54The prosecutor asked me questions about
2:45:57that. You have the my answers. So it was
2:46:00the work of the military police under
2:46:03the brigade command.
2:46:07I am here under oath.
2:46:10But even
2:46:13when I came here, the battalion soldiers
2:46:16told me, "Please tell the truth and
2:46:20protect, defend the just cause of the Ka
2:46:25the war." So once again I'm repeating
2:46:30for what you asked me when we had a
2:46:33problem that was dealt with by the
2:46:35military police which was under the
2:46:39command of the uh commander of the
2:46:42brigade.
2:46:44>> Did you understand me?
2:46:47>> Battalion commander
2:46:48>> had no independent ability to enforce
2:46:52discipline in your battalion.
2:46:55>> Correct.
2:46:55>> Yeah. Yeah.
2:46:56>> No, never.
2:47:05>> Your part of your basis for saying that
2:47:08it was organized is that um when you
2:47:11entered Kosovo in 1998,
2:47:14um you received travel money from Yashar
2:47:17Salihu. Is that correct?
2:47:21>> P.
2:47:22>> Yes.
2:47:24logistical organization.
2:47:27Correct.
2:47:33>> No, the money were given in Switzerland
2:47:36for our trip. When we came to Tyrana, it
2:47:40is written there very clearly. In
2:47:43Tyrana, Aamula gave us the uniforms and
2:47:47accompanied us to Kum where we were
2:47:50given weapons and then in an organiz
2:47:52organized way we entered.
2:47:57>> Okay. And what kind of training did you
2:47:59receive before you entered? Military
2:48:02training.
2:48:08exercises, military exercises
2:48:15>> to keep in shape, tactical, physical
2:48:18exercises, training
2:48:23>> the type of of uh military training you
2:48:26did was in Germany and it was included
2:48:29things like playing soccer, basketball
2:48:32to stay in shape.
2:48:37Uh, sorry I hurried up. This is what I
2:48:40mean to keep in shape, to keep to have
2:48:43good physical body.
2:48:46We played football, basketball,
2:48:49basketball
2:48:51to keep up in shape. I said conditional
2:48:57preparation
2:48:59>> before entering Kosovo was playing
2:49:01basketball soccer in the evenings in
2:49:04Germany. Correct.
2:49:14>> Yes. We say preparation of your physical
2:49:17condition. That's true.
2:49:20Um,
2:49:24did you ever serve in the Yugoslav Army?
2:49:29>> P.
2:49:30>> Yes.
2:49:33>> Enter the Yugoslav Army. What type of
2:49:35military training did you receive?
2:49:42I was in the light artillery
2:49:48>> mandatory service.
2:49:50>> They put you through some basic
2:49:52training. Correct.
2:49:58>> You sent me back to 83.
2:50:01I have forgotten.
2:50:04like in every other army like you may
2:50:06have done military exercises training
2:50:10that's the same thing
2:50:14>> but you know what basic training is
2:50:15correct
2:50:20>> yes I do
2:50:22>> training by the ka before you entered
2:50:24Kosovo
2:50:26correct
2:50:30>> can po
2:50:31>> we did
2:50:33The basic training
2:50:39>> I explained to you how to use the weapon
2:50:45>> tactical exercises
2:50:49>> exercises because that's not in your SPO
2:50:51interview
2:50:56>> in Albania.
2:50:58What else?
2:51:02Before
2:51:05we joined the war,
2:51:10we were trained in my village how to use
2:51:13the weapons in the forest there
2:51:22>> before we joined the war in your
2:51:24village. You're talking about
2:51:30Yes. Before
2:51:32you entered Kosovo, after you came down
2:51:35from Germany, did you receive basic
2:51:37training?
2:51:39by the KLA.
2:51:47>> We were told
2:51:50after we entered
2:51:55in before we entered in Kroom we were
2:51:58prepared physically prepared that is
2:52:00trained.
2:52:05>> Describe the training.
2:52:11We ran
2:52:14to take our positions.
2:52:19>> Who led the training?
2:52:24>> Mr.
2:52:25>> We trained ourselves
2:52:28as a group.
2:52:30There were also some persons whom I
2:52:33don't remember now in Kum.
2:52:42I don't know who those persons were. And
2:52:45we went up a hill and we fired our
2:52:47weapons there.
2:52:50Entered Kosovo.
2:52:52You went from Likach to Kletchka and
2:52:55were told to establish a base in
2:52:57Cromier,
2:52:59but you did not have a written
2:53:01appointment decision. Correct.
2:53:09Correct. It was only or an oral order
2:53:21and you received instructions from
2:53:23Fatmir Limi to uh then go to Cromier to
2:53:27establish a KLA in your area of
2:53:29responsibility. Correct.
2:53:43When we came from Leovs
2:53:47to be very frank with you,
2:53:50Fatmir had the base in Kletchk
2:53:56and
2:53:57they told me to go to Crimeir
2:54:02Fatmir gave me the tasks I was to
2:54:04perform
2:54:07to invite other people whoever had
2:54:11weapons to join us to write their names
2:54:15and to tell him who the soldiers were
2:54:18names and last names and to send them to
2:54:22Kletchk the number of the soldiers and
2:54:24this is how it began that's the only the
2:54:27beginning
2:54:30that's how it happened and we continued
2:54:32like that up to the end
2:54:36>> and you began to recruit people who were
2:54:38already there.
2:54:39>> Correct.
2:54:42>> Yes. I called on the com there
2:54:47>> began to form these these uh Kla the Ka
2:54:51presence in Crimeir. Correct.
2:54:58>> Correct.
2:54:59So on a voluntary basis correct?
2:55:05>> Yes. Everybody was a volunteer.
2:55:09>> Accepted.
2:55:12Correct.
2:55:14>> Yes.
2:55:16Often these people came with their own
2:55:17weapons and uniforms.
2:55:20Correct.
2:55:24>> With weapons. The uniforms were pre sold
2:55:28there.
2:55:34They brought their own weapons
2:55:40and you told the SPO that to the extent
2:55:43that anybody who had been with the Serb
2:55:45police wanted to join, they were able to
2:55:47join. Is that correct?
2:55:54>> Yeah.
2:55:57I didn't say that
2:56:01those who were with the Serbian police
2:56:03didn't come to us. They stay there.
2:56:08Okay. Um,
2:56:21now you say that your brigade had a
2:56:24military police
2:56:27u unit attached to it. Is that correct?
2:56:30>> Battalion.
2:56:32>> The battalion.
2:56:34Yes.
2:56:37They were under the command not of you
2:56:39but of the brigade command. Is that
2:56:41correct?
2:56:46>> P.
2:56:46>> Yes.
2:56:49>> And your your testimony is that the
2:56:51brigade commander at the time was who?
2:56:58not go and film
2:57:00>> at the time was initially li at the end
2:57:04of 98
2:57:07Shala the former police commander
2:57:10at the end of 98.
2:57:16>> Okay.
2:57:18Um,
2:57:27now you told the SPO that up to the time
2:57:30that you were you received a decision in
2:57:33August of 1998
2:57:35appointing you as a battalion commander,
2:57:37you did not go to any meetings in
2:57:39Klitschka or know anything about other
2:57:41structures. Is that correct?
2:57:45>> Can I have a quote for that, your
2:57:46honors? P
2:57:50>> I didn't say that.
2:57:53>> Let me turn to P114.3.
2:57:56If we can put it on the screen, please
2:58:00page
2:58:03>> I didn't say that.
2:58:06>> 3692 lines 7-6.
2:58:09Sorry, this is your ICTY interview. I
2:58:11may have said SPO. It's your ICTY
2:58:13interview
2:58:16in Albanian P114.3
2:58:20at page seven lines 1 to 10.
2:58:29>> May I reply?
2:58:34>> You might want to rephrase your question
2:58:35also to include the ICTY instead of SPO
2:58:39>> and also
2:58:40>> just so he's clear for the record. Yes,
2:58:42ma'am.
2:58:43>> Yes, there's been a clarification to
2:58:45this point in prep not one.
2:58:48>> I understand he's made changed his
2:58:50testimony, but I'm going to the original
2:58:52testimony.
2:59:01This is the And just to correct the
2:59:04record, just to correct the record,
2:59:06witness, um this is your ICTY testimony.
2:59:09You gave sworn testimony under oath at
2:59:12the ICTY and I'm going to show you the
2:59:13pages now
2:59:14>> of your the question and your answer.
2:59:22>> So
2:59:24beginning at line seven in the English,
2:59:28sorry, beginning at line seven in the
2:59:29English and line
2:59:34seven in the Albanian as well.
2:59:38Sorry, line one in the Albanian
2:59:41um it says I mentioned it earlier that
2:59:43up to the offensive up to the end of May
2:59:47number one was Shukri Buouya and I was
2:59:50his deputy number two. After the
2:59:53offensive the bea the battalion and the
2:59:55brigade was formed and the decision was
2:59:58taken, the decision that I brought here
3:00:00according to which I was appointed
3:00:02battalion commander. For the period
3:00:05prior to this, I said that I rarely went
3:00:07to Kletchka and I'm not able to know
3:00:09whether there was a brigade or not.
3:00:11Mabri Shook Shukri might know this. It
3:00:15is true that and the reason why I
3:00:17brought that document is that I became a
3:00:19commander, battalion commander after the
3:00:21offensive and from that time from my
3:00:24appointment I became an official leader
3:00:26of the staff in Cromier.
3:00:28>> Do you see that?
3:00:31>> Now you were appointed in in August.
3:00:37in letter I was appointed in August.
3:00:41It's very true. Earlier I was there very
3:00:45rarely
3:00:50but the organization was the same as in
3:00:54the battalion.
3:00:57Even earlier
3:00:59it was called battalion as such. Even
3:01:02earlier
3:01:05I want to be very honest to depict the
3:01:08reality. It is true that I took part
3:01:11very rarely in the meetings because I
3:01:14reported to Shukri Shukri to Fatmir and
3:01:17so I participated more rarely.
3:01:21I changed a little here. I said I went
3:01:25there less often.
3:01:29So on paper that was when I was
3:01:32appointed com battalion commander but we
3:01:36had the same structures.
3:01:41It was the same number also of uh
3:01:44soldiers or structures like before.
3:01:49Even before we reported to brigade in
3:01:53Kletchka,
3:01:55nothing changed.
3:01:59>> We go to weekly meetings at Fatmir
3:02:02Levi's command.
3:02:06>> When did you go regularly?
3:02:10I went even earlier.
3:02:14But after I was appointed on paper
3:02:20as a battalion commander, my
3:02:22responsibilities grew. But even before I
3:02:26went and reported to Fatmir, both Shukri
3:02:29and myself, sometimes we were together
3:02:32present in the meetings. Did you
3:02:34understand me? Because I my question is
3:02:38when did you start to go on a weekly
3:02:40basis regularly to Fatmir Limi's
3:02:43command?
3:02:47>> Every week
3:02:50I went after the decision was issued
3:02:57to make me commander. Earlier before
3:03:00that time I went less often. Sometimes
3:03:02it was Shukri, sometimes myself because
3:03:06I reported to Shukri and there was no
3:03:09need for me to go there.
3:03:11After the decision was made, of course,
3:03:14I had to go there every week. I was
3:03:16supposed to pledge to go there.
3:03:20>> Clear. You say after you were appointed,
3:03:22you're talking about after August of
3:03:241998, correct? After August 16, 1998.
3:03:28After
3:03:34I was appointed on paper, after I
3:03:37received the decision, before I didn't
3:03:40know that it was necessary to have a
3:03:43decision,
3:03:46even before I reported as a battalion
3:03:50commander, but there was not a proper
3:03:53decision
3:03:56on my appointment
3:03:58>> testimony to be and you correct you
3:04:00either confirm or correct me. It was not
3:04:03until you received your written
3:04:05appointment in mid August 1998 that you
3:04:08began to attend weekly meetings at
3:04:10Fatmir Limi's command. Is that accurate?
3:04:21Yes, but even before I went but not as
3:04:25regularly
3:04:31>> so that you properly understand
3:04:35when I didn't go it was shukri who went
3:04:38the hierarchy was the same even before
3:04:41there was no change after my appointment
3:04:45>> those meetings that you attended at
3:04:47fatmir lei's command
3:04:54He did, but he didn't report.
3:05:01>> I'm going to assume he didn't report.
3:05:03>> Sometimes he too participated,
3:05:07but not to report anything.
3:05:13I'm going to I'm going to take a guess
3:05:16that anybody who was with the military
3:05:18police, you were never present when they
3:05:20reported on anything. Would that be
3:05:22correct?
3:05:35>> That would be correct.
3:05:37I wasn't present.
3:06:02Now your the decision to appoint you as
3:06:05battalion commander.
3:06:08Um it was only at that time that formal
3:06:11brigades and battalions began to be
3:06:13formed
3:06:16in the postric zone. Correct.
3:06:26>> They were even before please
3:06:30>> known as brigades. Did they have numbers
3:06:34battalions?
3:06:36>> Is it my head?
3:06:37>> Even earlier,
3:06:39even before the decision, my written
3:06:42decision, there were battalions, there
3:06:44were brigades.
3:06:54So, you're changing your testimony of
3:06:56what you said at the ICTY,
3:06:58correct?
3:07:04What am I changing?
3:07:06>> Me tell you and we can put this on the
3:07:09screen as well. This is P1114.3
3:07:13page 3713
3:07:15beginning at line three.
3:07:18And the same document in Albanian
3:07:23at page 29 beginning at line 10.
3:07:56Now, starting at 910 witness. This was
3:07:58your answer under oath.
3:08:01The question was, and what began to
3:08:03happen in August with the decision of
3:08:05your appointment on the 16th of August
3:08:08was that the volunteer army in various
3:08:10areas of Kosovo had to be organized and
3:08:13formalized into something more
3:08:16resembling an army that might be
3:08:18recognized in the rest of Europe. Do you
3:08:20follow the point I'm making? Answer:
3:08:23Yes. Yes, I follow it. But
3:08:25>> question question and do you agree?
3:08:28Answer yes I agree. There were many
3:08:31internationals at the time who came and
3:08:32conducted negotiations and things like
3:08:34that but I was on a lower rank so I
3:08:38didn't take part in these negotiations
3:08:39and talks.
3:08:42Do you agree with what you said at the
3:08:43ICTY?
3:08:48>> I don't think so. At that time
3:08:52it will we made a restructuring.
3:08:56So there was an restructuring I don't
3:08:59know if I'm making myself clear
3:09:02that happened at that time
3:09:06and I have put it very well here.
3:09:09It was at this time that we officers
3:09:13started to join. This is what I wanted
3:09:17or I meant to say. That was the time
3:09:19when Albania, some Albanian officers
3:09:23came and so there was a restructuring
3:09:26carried out of the forces.
3:09:35So things started to change in terms of
3:09:37organization.
3:09:40>> What's Well, it's time for the break. So
3:09:42uh
3:09:44>> thank you Mr. Mr. Witness, we'll break
3:09:47for lunch now. Uh we will be uh at lunch
3:09:51from now until 2:30 and then we will
3:09:55begin again. You may leave the room now
3:09:57with the the court usher. Thank you.
3:10:01Please do not discuss this matter with
3:10:02anybody outside the room.
3:10:08>> I said I am alone there.
3:10:25All right, we're adjourned until 2:30.
3:10:27>> All right.
3:10:59be seated.
3:11:14And your honors before the witness is
3:11:16brought in I would have a brief matter.
3:11:19Yes, sure.
3:11:31Yes. Now I also have my headphones on.
3:11:34Um before the witness is brought in,
3:11:36there is a brief matter I would like to
3:11:37discuss in private session. Please.
3:11:40>> Into private session, please.
3:11:56Your honors, we're in private session.
3:11:57Thank you.
3:12:00>> Yes. Thank you, your honors. Um, since
3:12:01there are uh ICTY and SPO statements in
3:12:04the presentation cues of the defense,
3:12:07particularly um Mr. Touch's defense, um
3:12:10we agreed with Mr. missitage that since
3:12:13the names of the people and the facts
3:12:15that he intend to put to the witness are
3:12:17material uh to the propositions that he
3:12:20wants to put um the SPO has no um has no
3:12:24issues with those names being put to the
3:12:27witness. However, without identifying
3:12:30them as witnesses either at the ICTY or
3:12:33NDS at the SPO and of course this would
3:12:36be uh pursuant and in accordance with
3:12:38your honor's order of uh 12 May 2013.
3:12:43Uh so the related transcripts or
3:12:45statements would not be called up or
3:12:47brought onto the screens.
3:12:50>> The uh related uh statements and
3:12:52transcript will not be uh brought up
3:12:55called up uh on the screens. so that the
3:12:58witnesses are not identified as
3:13:01witnesses for the SPO or the ICTY.
3:13:03>> So they're going to re you're going to
3:13:05refer to them by name but not by the
3:13:07fact that they are a witness or in what
3:13:09court? Is that
3:13:10>> that's correct?
3:13:10>> Okay.
3:13:11>> Um
3:13:12>> how will he know what what is the the
3:13:16where they were testified?
3:13:17>> So this is where I I wanted to step up
3:13:19now. Um, all of the statements I intend
3:13:22to use have numbers that won't reveal
3:13:24either that they're SPO or ICTY
3:13:26witnesses. So, you'll be able to pull
3:13:28them up. I'll call out the the document,
3:13:30but I won't call it up on the screen.
3:13:32>> Okay.
3:13:32>> So, that the witness can't see.
3:13:33>> You two are satisfied with that. Anybody
3:13:35else have a problem with that?
3:13:36>> If I may just
3:13:37>> Yeah, just Okay, go ahead.
3:13:39>> Sorry. Um, I just wanted to call out one
3:13:42number which does reveal that it's ICTY
3:13:44testimony. So, you have it now and
3:13:45you'll know what I'm referring to later.
3:13:47And that's um I intend to use IT0366
3:13:51T768
3:13:53to T857
3:13:56at pages 776
3:13:58line 8 to 779 line 25.
3:14:04Thank you.
3:14:34All right, madam court usher, please
3:14:37bring the witness in
3:14:39>> and I think we can be back in public
3:14:40session, Mr. President.
3:14:45>> And please take us to public session.
3:15:10Your honor to be in public session.
3:15:12Thank you.
3:15:12>> Thank you.
3:15:24And we will break for 10 minutes at
3:15:263:30.
3:15:46Where are you on your 43 pages?
3:15:54>> Mr. Roberts actually took up a lot of
3:15:55it. So, um it's 2:35. So, around the uh
3:16:01first break. Okay. So, hopefully a
3:16:03little before a little after 3:30.
3:16:05>> Okay. But
3:16:08>> thank you.
3:16:09>> Thank you.
3:16:26All right, witness. We will continue now
3:16:28with the questions from the Tachi
3:16:29defense.
3:16:35>> Thank you, Mr. President.
3:16:36>> Go ahead.
3:16:37>> Good afternoon, witness.
3:16:41My first question to you is um in terms
3:16:43of the structure of the KA, what units
3:16:47form, what um formations existed below
3:16:52the level of battalion in the KLA in
3:16:54your uh area
3:16:59after August 16th.
3:17:07>> So battalion company
3:17:10um squad platoon squad.
3:17:13>> So you these formations existed as of
3:17:16when
3:17:18>> did they exist before August 16th
3:17:23>> Paul?
3:17:24>> Yes.
3:17:26>> Let me take you first to a document that
3:17:29was um discussed on with the prosecutor
3:17:32and that's exhibit P8. Please.
3:18:13Now witness um I just had a couple of
3:18:16questions on this document. First the
3:18:18the title of the document is provisional
3:18:21rules of organizing internal army life.
3:18:24Do you know why the rules were
3:18:25provisional?
3:18:36Well, the word itself means temporary,
3:18:38provisional. So, it may have changed
3:18:40later, but it means for a certain amount
3:18:42of time, for a period of time, I guess
3:18:48rules. Is that your understanding?
3:18:54>> I think so.
3:18:57>> Because the word itself means precisely
3:18:59that, temporary.
3:19:01Um you've testified in your SPO
3:19:05interview that um you are not familiar
3:19:07with how other zones operated. Correct.
3:19:15>> It sucked.
3:19:16>> Correct.
3:19:19>> If we could turn the page in this
3:19:21document, please.
3:19:33And if we look at um
3:19:39first of all the the the title is again
3:19:43a provisional regul regulation.
3:19:46Did you see this regulation in May or
3:19:49June 1998?
3:19:59I might not be accurate here, but when I
3:20:02received it, I think it was about the
3:20:04then time. So, yes, I think I saw it.
3:20:08>> Um, let's look at at it. And and
3:20:12section two on this page is the content
3:20:14of the military oath.
3:20:18And if you look at
3:20:20point five, it says, "At a set time,
3:20:24when a representative of a higher
3:20:26command arrives, the unit commander
3:20:28gives the following order. Attention to
3:20:31the front,
3:20:34left, right, salute, present arms." Then
3:20:37he reports, "General, the company, the
3:20:40infantry company, first or second, is
3:20:43lined up for the oath taking ceremony.
3:20:46Company Commander, Colonel Cheliku.
3:20:50You see that?
3:20:55>> Huh?
3:20:56>> Yes.
3:20:58>> Who it be?
3:21:02>> Fat Lima.
3:21:02>> Fatm Lima.
3:21:06>> Um, didn't hear him being called, just
3:21:09commander back then. But you don't know
3:21:13of any other um or are you aware of any
3:21:16other officer
3:21:19in the KLA that used the code name
3:21:22Chaliku?
3:21:28>> Yeah.
3:21:28>> No.
3:21:30>> Regulations seem to be specific to
3:21:35to Fatner Limi zone,
3:21:39don't they? I mean they they have a
3:21:41provision of saluting Colonel Chaliku.
3:21:57>> I never thought before that Jelico would
3:22:00have done this. We had a regulation as I
3:22:04mentioned earlier
3:22:07up until level of brigade.
3:22:10We reported but not higher than that.
3:22:15So it could have been but I have no
3:22:18knowledge of that. I do not know why it
3:22:20writes that there. Well, if it was a
3:22:23general um
3:22:26gen if there if there were rules of
3:22:28organizing internal army life that that
3:22:31applied throughout Kosovo,
3:22:33you wouldn't expect it to have an oath
3:22:35that salutes
3:22:37Colonel Chaliku, would you?
3:22:47>> I'm just analyzing it now. So yes, we
3:22:51did have this regulation.
3:22:57>> I don't have anything else to say. No
3:23:00comment.
3:23:04>> I shouldn't think did this on his own,
3:23:08but he might have.
3:23:10But the most important thing is that we
3:23:12would take it from the brigade.
3:23:15>> At another document um that was shown to
3:23:18you. This is P01121.
3:23:22It's the travel permit.
3:23:53Now you you dis you you recall
3:23:55discussing this permit with the
3:23:56prosecutor this morning.
3:24:03>> Yes.
3:24:05>> Or it purports to have been issued on or
3:24:06around the 8th of July 1998. Do you see
3:24:09that?
3:24:16Paul.
3:24:16>> Yes.
3:24:18>> Would you agree with me that in the
3:24:20upper leftand corner
3:24:22it does not identify any particular
3:24:24brigade or battalion.
3:24:27It just says operational unit Chiliku is
3:24:30issuing the permit. Is that correct?
3:24:37>> I can't really see it. Could you put it
3:24:38to the other side? Yes. Yes, I can see
3:24:40it now.
3:24:44>> It just says Kosovo Liberation Army
3:24:46Operational Unit Chaliku.
3:24:50You agree?
3:24:53>> Yes, one can see that. Yes.
3:24:57>> Formations by battalion or brigade or
3:25:00anything of the sort does it?
3:25:07>> Not on this permit. There's nothing
3:25:09there but at that time there was a
3:25:11brigade
3:25:14>> block. The commander doesn't identify
3:25:16himself as a commander of any particular
3:25:18formation does he? Other than
3:25:21operational unit chiliku.
3:25:31>> Yes that's the way has gone about it.
3:25:35If we turn now to exhibit P9, please
3:25:44>> may I say something?
3:25:47Why was I shown
3:25:50this? When are why are you asking me
3:25:53this question when this isn't something
3:25:54I have issued?
3:25:59>> I'm asking you because you provided
3:26:00answers to the prosecutor and I just
3:26:02have some follow-up questions on the
3:26:03document. If
3:26:07>> we can put up P9, please.
3:26:09>> Okay.
3:26:31Um, you were asked some questions about
3:26:33this document, the military police
3:26:36rules,
3:26:38and I just draw your attention to point
3:26:41four. It says the military police organs
3:26:44are subordinate to the military police
3:26:46directorate.
3:26:48Now, what is your understanding of when
3:26:50the military police directorate was
3:26:52established,
3:26:55if you have any understanding at all?
3:27:00I do not know when it was established.
3:27:03I do not know when the military police
3:27:06directorate was established because as I
3:27:08said we were only aware of the military
3:27:10police of the brigade.
3:27:13If we turn to the next page, please.
3:27:23And if we look at the signature block
3:27:33at the bottom, further down in the
3:27:35Albanian. Yes. Um, it purports to have
3:27:39been signed by the chief of the military
3:27:41police director at Fatmir Limi. Do you
3:27:44see that?
3:27:48>> Did you have an understanding of when
3:27:50Fatmir Limi became the chief of the
3:27:52military police directorate?
3:28:01>> You scum.
3:28:02>> No, I have no knowledge of that.
3:28:07You've told the SPO that you were the
3:28:09one who selected the military police
3:28:12members in your battalion. Is that
3:28:14correct?
3:28:19>> Paul.
3:28:20>> Yes.
3:28:22>> Going to put to you that Fatmir Limi did
3:28:24not become the chief of the military
3:28:25police director. Vak,
3:28:28>> uh, one thing if I may,
3:28:34>> just a second, please. So, yes, I
3:28:36selected them. I would send off their
3:28:38names and then they would approve them.
3:28:41So, they didn't have to approve them.
3:28:43They could say so and so, it's not going
3:28:45to go through, but basically, they were
3:28:47the ones to decide.
3:28:50So I'm I'm putting to you that Fatmir
3:28:52Limi did not become chief of the
3:28:54military police director before November
3:28:56of 1998.
3:28:59And so my question to you is at the time
3:29:01you selected people to be military
3:29:03policemen in the battalion, what rules
3:29:07were they supposed to follow or whose
3:29:09rules?
3:29:15>> Please. Back then, Haj Shala was the
3:29:17commander of the military police of the
3:29:20brigade. Fatmir back then was a brigade
3:29:23commander and Shala was the commander of
3:29:26the military police. So, he decided not
3:29:29Fatmir.
3:29:30>> I'm ask I'm asking you a different
3:29:32question. How did the military policeman
3:29:35you selected know
3:29:36>> different
3:29:39policeman you selected know what their
3:29:41job was?
3:29:46what their duties were.
3:29:51>> They would be given the duties by the
3:29:53brigade commander
3:29:56>> basis.
3:30:00>> No,
3:30:02they would have meetings of course
3:30:05even though
3:30:09I wouldn't need to discuss those. They
3:30:11weren't for me. So they just uh worked
3:30:15themselves,
3:30:17>> selected them, but then you had no idea
3:30:20what their job was or what their duties
3:30:22were.
3:30:24>> Nothing.
3:30:24>> Yeah.
3:30:25>> So what criteria?
3:30:26>> No.
3:30:28>> Excuse me.
3:30:29>> Correct.
3:30:32>> To use to select people for a job that
3:30:34you didn't know what the tasks were
3:30:35going to be.
3:30:41uh you
3:30:43>> uh please
3:30:45we would put them forward. I would
3:30:48propose the names and I thought they
3:30:51were perhaps the best um the most the
3:30:55well behaved and then they would decide
3:30:57and then we wouldn't need to deal with
3:30:59that any longer. Um duters were quite
3:31:02clear who was going to deal with the
3:31:04operational matters or the police. As I
3:31:06said we would put them forward and
3:31:08nothing else their names. So we didn't
3:31:11deal with them afterwards. We're all
3:31:13delved into that work afterwards.
3:31:16>> You by the prosecutor this morning, she
3:31:19asked you whether the tasks here were
3:31:21consistent with your understanding of
3:31:22the duties of the military police. Then
3:31:24what was your basis of agreeing with her
3:31:27this morning? If you have no knowledge,
3:31:32why did you say this document was
3:31:33consistent with the duties of the
3:31:35military police if you don't know what
3:31:36the military police duties were?
3:31:41Objection that that misrepresents the
3:31:44evidence. The witness has given ample
3:31:46evidence about the duties of the
3:31:47military police.
3:31:48>> Overruled. Go ahead.
3:31:51>> You may answer. CeCead
3:31:53>> once again, please.
3:31:56>> I'm sorry.
3:31:58>> How you told the prosecutor that you
3:32:02agree that this document reflects the
3:32:04duties of the military police. And now
3:32:07in answers to my questions, you say you
3:32:09don't know what the duties were. That
3:32:11that was an issue for the brigade.
3:32:12>> Mafal,
3:32:14>> sorry,
3:32:18it was another document that I saw on
3:32:20the screen.
3:32:22It was another document to my knowledge.
3:32:24It is when I think there was a meeting
3:32:28by the police commander and it was on
3:32:31that document that I expressed myself
3:32:34saying that it was the military polices
3:32:36and it could so be that we misunderstand
3:32:39each other. So I proposed the
3:32:43individuals put them forward and then
3:32:45they would deal with a matter. I don't
3:32:47know to what extent you can understand
3:32:50me. Whereas earlier the prosecutor
3:32:53provided me with another document when
3:32:56in the third battalion the police
3:32:58commander organized a meeting. I think
3:33:00you're referring to that one instead.
3:33:16Yeah. Witness, this is the document you
3:33:18were shown this morning.
3:33:20>> Your honor, it is not. I showed the
3:33:23duties from chapter 8 of P8.
3:33:27>> Okay, let's put that one on the screen
3:33:28then. P8, please.
3:34:17I know. Council, do you have the
3:34:18>> Yes, I think it was page 15 of both
3:34:20versions. Yes. Thank you.
3:34:23>> U00 09363.
3:34:49I think it's the previous page for the
3:34:51court office.
3:35:22Do you recall this document this
3:35:24morning?
3:35:26>> Do you recall seeing this document this
3:35:27morning?
3:35:42Yes, I saw this document.
3:35:44>> Okay. And
3:35:47how did you
3:35:51were these the duties of the military
3:35:52police in the summer of 1998?
3:36:04They must have been, but I wasn't in the
3:36:06military police. So, it's quite possible
3:36:08that they were. I wasn't a member of the
3:36:11military police, but they must have been
3:36:14because I think based on what it says
3:36:16here, I think they were the task like of
3:36:20uh to take your task at the high
3:36:22responsibility, that sort of thing. Yes.
3:36:24Yes. That's the one.
3:36:31Yes, indeed.
3:36:42>> Okay. So, you're saying you have no
3:36:43personal knowledge of this? You're just
3:36:45assuming that these were the tasks?
3:36:52>> Paul?
3:36:52>> Yes.
3:36:54seen this document before it was shown
3:36:56to you by the prosecution.
3:37:05>> If this is indeed part of the
3:37:08regulation, I mean it's such a long time
3:37:11and I haven't dealt with these issues
3:37:13for about 25 years. Could this be part
3:37:17of the regulation, the provisional one
3:37:18of the KA? Yes.
3:37:27Yes, it is.
3:37:28>> He said he said yes. Maybe he didn't
3:37:30hear him.
3:37:32>> That's what I said. It could well be.
3:37:33Yes.
3:37:35>> All seeing this document before it was
3:37:38shown to you by the prosecution. Is your
3:37:39answer? Yes. You saw it.
3:37:47>> Please, sir.
3:37:49this
3:37:50regulation or rather I had mine my
3:37:53personal one back then not of course I
3:37:56saw that one but what I said is that
3:37:59it's now 25 years later and one could
3:38:03forget about things
3:38:07>> and whether it was part of that
3:38:08regulation and if it was yes then I
3:38:11would have seen it if it was part of it
3:38:13then I would have seen it
3:38:16Now,
3:38:19who determined that this would be these
3:38:21would be the duties of the military
3:38:23police? To your knowledge,
3:38:29this is the document I showed you that
3:38:31as a salute to Colonel Chaliku
3:38:35on the first page
3:38:38who determined that these would be the
3:38:40rules in that document for the military
3:38:42police.
3:38:52Well, you might know even better than me
3:38:55who determined these rules. I can only
3:38:58guess. Suppose I cannot possibly know
3:39:00exactly who did that.
3:39:03>> Okay. Scum. Scum.
3:39:05>> I don't really have anything to say. I
3:39:07don't have an idea on this.
3:39:16witness. Let me change topics briefly.
3:39:20Um, Tahir Sanani,
3:39:23do you know who he is?
3:39:27>> Welcome. You have
3:39:29>> Yes, I knew him. I got to know him at
3:39:32the end of 1988.
3:39:35>> Tahir Sanani was a professional military
3:39:37officer before he joined the KLA.
3:39:47Look at this.
3:39:48>> I do not know because I didn't know him
3:39:50earlier.
3:40:00Now, I want to follow up on something
3:40:01that uh Mr. Roberts put to you this
3:40:03morning, and I want to just put the
3:40:06transcript of your SPO interview on the
3:40:08screen. And if we could please have
3:40:09exhibit P115.2,
3:40:13page 44, beginning at line 16,
3:40:17and in Albanian at page 36,
3:40:21beginning at line 22.
3:40:23And witness, I'm going to just read what
3:40:25you said to the SPO and then ask you if
3:40:27you still stand by that testimony.
3:41:10Now, witness beginning at line 16 in the
3:41:14English. This relates now to the um what
3:41:17Mr. Roberts discussed with you about uh
3:41:20Fatmir Limi giving you an order to hide
3:41:23your weapons and uniforms because the
3:41:25KLA no longer exists and you opposing
3:41:28that order. And so, uh this is what was
3:41:31asked and how you answered
3:41:34question. So, did he meaning Mr. for
3:41:36Limi. Was that an order that he gave you
3:41:38to go hide your weapons and uniform?
3:41:40Your answer was he gave that order to
3:41:42the first battalion and I opposed that
3:41:45order. And I told them, put your
3:41:47uniforms back on and pick up your
3:41:49weapons and in our battalion we violated
3:41:52that order. We never hid our weapons or
3:41:54uniforms.
3:41:56Was that question was that a uniform was
3:41:59that an order that had was that order
3:42:01that applied to your battalion as well?
3:42:03your answer. Of course, yeah, because he
3:42:05was the brigade commander. Do you stand
3:42:08by that testimony?
3:42:11>> I already told you.
3:42:15>> I wanted to be very honest. I told you
3:42:17what really happened.
3:42:22If we had received that order, then
3:42:27we had to go
3:42:31where he said the only order we didn't
3:42:35obey was that that we kept our weapons.
3:42:40He didn't tell that to me. Told that to
3:42:42the soldiers in Charlotte Valley. And
3:42:45the soldiers were bewildered. They
3:42:48didn't know what to do
3:42:51then. The fact being that we were kind
3:42:53of isolated there. There was nowhere we
3:42:56could go.
3:42:59We stood there. We had the choice was to
3:43:02go and surrender to the Serb forces and
3:43:06get killed. So we remained there where
3:43:10we were. That was what happened.
3:43:15It was not that there was a meeting and
3:43:18an order given. It was an extraordinary
3:43:21circumstance if you understand me.
3:43:26>> Question.
3:43:28>> Do you stand by this test? Excuse me.
3:43:30>> Excuse me.
3:43:32>> Do you stand by the testimony you gave
3:43:34to the SPO and that you swore under oath
3:43:37this morning was true and accurate to
3:43:38the best of your knowledge and belief?
3:43:41>> Is it yes or no? Yes or no?
3:43:44>> It's in it's it's in the right button.
3:43:46>> Yes. Only for that particular
3:43:48circumstance and moment. And if you
3:43:51allow me, I can tell you something else.
3:43:54When I gave this interview in 2005
3:43:59when I returned to Kosovo,
3:44:02I don't know if you have talked this
3:44:04issue with your client. All these
3:44:06persons who are here thanked me for
3:44:08speaking the truth. I don't know if you
3:44:11have discussed this with a client you
3:44:14represent.
3:44:15They called me and they invited me to a
3:44:18coffee and they tell you have done very
3:44:20well. You have stood up and protected
3:44:22the war. I
3:44:26just wanted to give you an answer.
3:44:30>> Yes,
3:44:32you stand by this. So
3:44:36the second sent the second question
3:44:38there you confirmed for the SPO that
3:44:40that order by Fatmir Limi applied to you
3:44:43and your battalion as well and you
3:44:46according to your language you oppose
3:44:48that order and violated that order and
3:44:51my question to you is did anything
3:44:54happen to you or your battalion for
3:44:56violating Fatmir Limi's order? Were you
3:44:59punished in any way?
3:45:07No,
3:45:09because Fatmir was hidden somewhere for
3:45:12a time. We were alone.
3:45:17Some weeks passed, I don't know how
3:45:20many. Then he returned and he felt that
3:45:22he had made a mistake. He returned and
3:45:25continued his work in the brigade
3:45:29because at the time there was nobody
3:45:32that could punish you. We were
3:45:34scattered. We were in groups where we
3:45:37were not, you know, in a unit. Let's say
3:45:43>> Refi Mazu,
3:45:46he was appointed as one of your platoon
3:45:49commanders. Is that correct?
3:45:54Refi was uh appointed
3:45:59by the brigade commander then
3:46:02he stayed for some two weeks in platon
3:46:06in bri
3:46:09in in
3:46:11I couldn't catch the name of the place
3:46:16>> is a platoon commander in what place
3:46:21>> in blini Okay.
3:46:24>> By someone with a nickname Scorpion. Is
3:46:26that correct?
3:46:29>> P. Yes.
3:46:32>> Name was
3:46:34>> Yeah. Cor.
3:46:36>> No, I never knew name.
3:46:38>> Now they were appointed to positions
3:46:42as platoon commanders which
3:46:43formationally was subordinate to you as
3:46:46the battalion commander. Correct.
3:46:48Formationally.
3:46:54P.
3:46:55>> Yes. Yes.
3:46:58>> Fatmir Limi appointed them directly
3:47:02bypassing you. Correct.
3:47:05>> P.
3:47:06>> Yes.
3:47:08>> Him.
3:47:11>> We can report to not.
3:47:12>> Yes. At the time. Yes. Um
3:47:19are you aware that there are accusations
3:47:21against Mazu
3:47:24concerning commission of crimes?
3:47:30>> I don't know.
3:47:33>> That's not the reason why you're saying
3:47:34that
3:47:35>> um he bypassed
3:47:37>> I don't know
3:47:39Limi and was outside of your chain of
3:47:42command.
3:47:45Yeah.
3:47:46>> No, no, that's not the reason why.
3:47:56>> Let's turn to Shukri Buouya.
3:47:59Um,
3:48:04Shukri Buouya visited
3:48:07Kuimir in May of 1998. Correct.
3:48:15You're car.
3:48:16>> No, in April. He came in April. April or
3:48:20May?
3:48:26>> Note with the prosecution.
3:48:32Sorry. Yeah. In in the SPO interview,
3:48:35you said it was May of 98. Then in your
3:48:37preparation note with the prosecution
3:48:39last week, you said that should be
3:48:40corrected to April of 98.
3:48:44So which one is it?
3:48:46>> April until July.
3:48:51>> I'm talking about when he first visited
3:48:52was it April or May visited
3:48:55>> in April?
3:48:57>> And he introduced himself as the
3:48:59commander of the entire region between
3:49:01La Pushnik and Kachanik. Correct.
3:49:06Galik
3:49:07>> from Laik to
3:49:15according to what you said to the SPO,
3:49:17you were asked, did you accept his
3:49:18command? Your answer was, so I said,
3:49:21okay. Well, I'm organizing things here
3:49:23in Cromier. You're not getting in the
3:49:25way of my organization if that's okay.
3:49:28And I began organizations and stuff, but
3:49:31when fighting started, he was never to
3:49:33be found. Do you stand by that
3:49:35testimony?
3:49:42Yes.
3:49:44When there was fighting, he withdrew. I
3:49:48said he wasn't present there.
3:49:50>> You also told them that he wasn't going
3:49:52to get in the way of your organization
3:49:53of the Ka and Crimeir. Correct.
3:50:01>> Cannab. I said he did not get in our way
3:50:07to prepare for war. That was the idea.
3:50:13>> appointed him to his position. Correct.
3:50:20>> No. No.
3:50:23>> To correct.
3:50:29He never said
3:50:37>> and you didn't report to Shukri Buya in
3:50:39this period correct from April to
3:50:43August.
3:50:44>> Yeah.
3:50:45>> Let's say sorry from May to July you
3:50:47didn't report to Shukri Buya.
3:50:53No, I reported to him
3:50:57>> do what you told the SPO P115.4
3:51:00four at page three, line 18 in the
3:51:03English
3:51:05and page three, line 10 in the Albanian.
3:51:42something if I may
3:51:44>> pose the question please.
3:51:50So if you look in Albanian beginning at
3:51:51line 10,
3:51:54sorry, page three in the Albanian line
3:51:5610,
3:51:58page three in the English line 10,
3:52:05sorry, uh, sorry, page three in the
3:52:07English line 18. Yeah. So the question
3:52:11was asked of you, did you report to
3:52:13Shukri Buouya in this period? Your
3:52:15answer was, why should I report to him
3:52:17if he wasn't around?
3:52:19The next question, excuse me.
3:52:21>> Then the next question is, so who did
3:52:23you report to in this period from May to
3:52:25end of July? Answer to the brigade to
3:52:28Fatmir.
3:52:32>> Do you recall that?
3:52:34>> Shir.
3:52:35>> Yes.
3:52:39I had to report also to Shukri.
3:52:44But when I didn't find him, I reported
3:52:47to Fatmir. That's correct.
3:52:53Why should I report to him if he wasn't
3:52:55around?
3:53:00>> Of course, if you don't find someone,
3:53:02you cannot report to him. That was the
3:53:05idea. And then I went to report to
3:53:08Fatmir.
3:53:11because he covered a very wide zone from
3:53:16he was always on the move.
3:53:23>> This is how it is as I said it here.
3:53:26>> Okay. And then Mr. Mr. Roberts took you
3:53:30through the issue of um
3:53:34what happened when and if I could just
3:53:37find that a second.
3:53:46Just one moment, Mr. President.
3:54:34We'll get back to that point in a
3:54:36moment. Um, you also criticized Fatmir
3:54:40Limi during meetings that you attended
3:54:42at Fatmir Limi's command.
3:54:44Correct?
3:54:50Ber
3:54:51>> yes several times
3:54:56in I criticized him for organization
3:55:01matters
3:55:05>> where there is work there is there are
3:55:07also criticisms
3:55:09>> in front of other people in the command
3:55:12correct
3:55:17>> at the meetings. Yes. No repercussion to
3:55:21you, no discipline to you for
3:55:22criticizing a superior. Correct.
3:55:31>> No, I think you have misunderstood it.
3:55:36I didn't level personal criticisms at
3:55:40him. It was only for work. I didn't
3:55:43speak ill to him. I don't know how you
3:55:47have misunderstood.
3:55:50I raised you know issues that needed to
3:55:54be criticized for the sake of work. I
3:55:58presented my ideas.
3:56:02We didn't
3:56:04we didn't have any kind of clashes
3:56:07there.
3:56:08>> When you first joined and established
3:56:10your batta battalion in Cromier, Fatmir
3:56:13Limi was your superior. Is that correct?
3:56:21>> I already told you
3:56:24that
3:56:25initially I had to report to Fatmir
3:56:29from the very first moment I arrived in
3:56:31Crimeir. I reported to Fatmir.
3:56:36I was under him. He was my superior.
3:56:41>> Left for Albania in January. Your
3:56:43understanding was that Fatmir Limi was
3:56:46still your superior. Correct?
3:56:51>> Y you do them.
3:56:52>> No, please. You have the papers there.
3:56:55You can read them. Fatmir was a brigade
3:56:58commander until end of 98. until then at
3:57:04the end of 98 Hajes Shala was appointed
3:57:08brigade commander
3:57:10and Fatmir went I don't know somewhere
3:57:13higher
3:57:16by the end of 98
3:57:19it was Shalah not Fatim
3:57:24>> in your SPO interview at part nine page
3:57:2713 you're asked
3:57:31you say but all or under the command of
3:57:33Fatmir. The question then is, and how
3:57:35long did this position in La Pushnik
3:57:37stay under the command of Fatmir Limi?
3:57:40Answer: Up until the end. Up to the end.
3:57:43Question. And what do you mean the end?
3:57:45The end of the end of the war. Answer.
3:57:47So I was commander of the second
3:57:49battalion. Both the first and second
3:57:51battalions were under the command of the
3:57:52brigade and the third and the fourth
3:57:54battalions were under the brigade
3:57:55command. So you're saying that it wasn't
3:57:58Fatmir until the end. It was the end of
3:58:0198.
3:58:03Is that correct?
3:58:18>> By the end of 98. I don't see anything
3:58:20wrong there. By the end of 98.
3:58:25Until end of 98.
3:58:28I didn't mention any name months but I
3:58:31said at the end of 98 then it was
3:58:36Shalah who was
3:58:38appointed as commander and I stand by
3:58:41what I said
3:58:45when they sent me to Koshar
3:58:50the order if you like came from the
3:58:53chief of staff Zurapi and the brigade
3:58:57commander
3:58:59This is what I said.
3:59:02>> Okay. Um
3:59:09in
3:59:12in June and July of 1999,
3:59:19>> you did not take
3:59:20>> I returned.
3:59:23>> I returned.
3:59:26>> My mistake. In June or July of 1998, you
3:59:30did not take any orders from Fatmir
3:59:32Limi. Is that correct or assignments?
3:59:40>> What do you think?
3:59:42What do you mean by no orders?
3:59:49>> We had work meetings. We worked at that
3:59:53time and reported on the work we did.
3:59:57And you can see it also in the meetings
4:00:00where we report on the health
4:00:02conditions, the number of the soldiers,
4:00:05the positions, the movements of the Serb
4:00:08forces. We have reported all these to
4:00:10the brigade.
4:00:12There was there were no other orders we
4:00:15could receive from Fatmir other than
4:00:17work related ones.
4:00:19>> What you said to the SPO P114.1
4:00:26Page 3579
4:00:29line one
4:00:37in Albanian is part two
4:00:41T R A T page 13
4:00:47line 24
4:00:50to 14 line five and I'm going to correct
4:00:52that this is what you said to the ICTI
4:01:18And if we go to um page 3589, and line
4:01:24four in English.
4:01:30Oh, sorry. 3579.
4:01:50It should be line 24 in the English.
4:01:54Okay. And in the Albanian
4:02:01page 13 line 24.
4:02:07Okay. And the question is in June and
4:02:11July did you ever meet with Fatmir Limi
4:02:14in Klitschka? Did you ever see him
4:02:16there? And your answer was I have
4:02:19>> I met excuse me I met him when the
4:02:22fighting was going on. Otherwise at this
4:02:24time I met him but I didn't take any
4:02:27orders or any assignments from him
4:02:29because I was no longer the first person
4:02:31in charge. I was the second one in
4:02:33Cromier.
4:02:38Was that your evidence?
4:02:42>> Yes. This is when Shukri Buouya came on
4:02:47the 9th of May. We had some fighting in
4:02:49Laushnik. After this fighting, Shukri
4:02:53Buya came and I reported to him. This is
4:02:56a time when I said that I started to
4:02:59report to Shukri Buya.
4:03:02Someone had to report either Shukri or
4:03:05myself.
4:03:07So it's the same as I said earlier
4:03:12>> that whenever there was fighting Shukri
4:03:14Buya wasn't around
4:03:19>> I said after the fighting
4:03:22maybe I don't know how they are
4:03:24translating it to you I said after the
4:03:27fighting
4:03:29of the 9th of May
4:03:31Shukri came and introduced himself as a
4:03:35commander At that time I had to report
4:03:39either to Shugri or to Fatmir. So at
4:03:42that time I did not report to Fatmir but
4:03:45to Shugri. I'm saying it quite
4:03:47correctly.
4:03:49>> You what you said about Shukri Buya
4:03:52P115.3
4:03:54page 33 in English and page 27
4:03:59in the Albanian beginning at line seven.
4:04:55Okay. And
4:05:00at line eight in the English,
4:05:06the question was, "Yeah, but you
4:05:08probably knew at the time if he,"
4:05:09meaning Shukri Buouya, had any military
4:05:11background. And your answer was was
4:05:14whenever we were fighting he wasn't
4:05:15around.
4:05:18>> Do you see that?
4:05:21>> Yes, that's correct.
4:05:24>> June and July,
4:05:26Shukri Buuya wasn't around because there
4:05:28was fighting and he was never around
4:05:29when there was fighting. Correct.
4:05:36>> Yes. But we didn't have fighting all the
4:05:40time. He was there but only when there
4:05:44was fighting. You have to emphasize that
4:05:47he wasn't there. We didn't fight every
4:05:50day. We had one fighting every two weeks
4:05:54or one month. The other days he was
4:05:57there
4:05:59in July when there's fighting. You're
4:06:01not taking orders from Fatmir Limi and
4:06:03instructions and Shukri Buouya isn't
4:06:05around.
4:06:07>> Right.
4:06:11I just took you through your testimony.
4:06:12You said in June you said in June and
4:06:14July you didn't take orders or
4:06:16instructions from Fatmir Limi and when
4:06:19there was fighting you didn't take you
4:06:21didn't see Shukri Buouya around. So
4:06:24who's who's in charge of you in those
4:06:26periods in June and July when there's
4:06:28fighting?
4:06:34Please let me explain it very well
4:06:38because I think you don't want to
4:06:40understand me.
4:06:42During the entire month of June, we
4:06:45fought only on the 14th of June. So on
4:06:49the 14th of June, he wasn't there.
4:06:52During the other days, he was there.
4:06:56I am repeating. I said that on the day
4:06:59of the fighting he wasn't there during
4:07:03the entire June on with the exception of
4:07:06the 14th and 17th of June he wasn't
4:07:09there when we had fighting but during
4:07:12the other days he was there so please
4:07:14don't distort what I'm saying only when
4:07:17there was fighting he wasn't there and
4:07:21those who are here present know it very
4:07:23well and my friends there know
4:07:27So again only when we had fighting he
4:07:32wasn't there
4:07:34that is how it was
4:07:37>> witness
4:07:37>> I stand by this.
4:07:39>> Okay. Um witness before we break you
4:07:43were told by the um at your SPO
4:07:46interview when it started that you were
4:07:49considered a suspect by the SPO. Is that
4:07:52correct?
4:08:00Yes. Yes.
4:08:02>> Right to remain silent.
4:08:07>> Why keep silence?
4:08:10Don't want to keep silent.
4:08:13>> Informed that you had the right to
4:08:14remain silent. Correct.
4:08:22>> Yes, I was informed.
4:08:24right to a lawyer.
4:08:25>> Correct.
4:08:28>> Huh?
4:08:29>> Yes.
4:08:31>> ICTY at the HEG tribunal also informed
4:08:34you of those rights before they
4:08:35interviewed you. Correct.
4:08:41>> Yes.
4:08:43>> Time that you were giving your evidence
4:08:45to the ICTY and to the SPO, you were
4:08:48aware that they considered you to be a
4:08:50suspect in certain crimes. Correct.
4:09:00Paul.
4:09:00>> Yes.
4:09:02>> Time for break.
4:09:04>> We'll take a short break. Witness.
4:09:08You may join the court.
4:09:11>> Pass it.
4:09:12>> We're going to take a short break. 10
4:09:14minutes.
4:09:28We're adjourned for 10 minutes. All
4:09:30rise.
4:09:53All rise
4:10:06be seated please.
4:10:10Madam user, please bring the witness in.
4:10:21Mr. President, I apologize for going
4:10:23over, but I hope to finish by 4:00.
4:10:26>> What?
4:10:26>> I hope to finish by 4:00.
4:10:29>> Okay.
4:10:32>> As they say, the road to hell is paved
4:10:33with good intentions.
4:10:34>> I'm sorry.
4:10:35>> I said the road to hell is paid with
4:10:36good intentions. So, I I'm sorry.
4:10:40You sound like my grandmother talking.
4:11:09All right, witness, we will continue
4:11:11with the cross- examination by the Dachi
4:11:13Defense.
4:11:14>> Thank you, Mr. President. Um, witness, I
4:11:16I do want to follow up again on uh an
4:11:18issue that Mr. Roberts brought up with
4:11:20you, and I just want to take you to your
4:11:21SPO interview, which is P115.4,
4:11:26page one in the English,
4:11:29beginning at line 20,
4:11:32and page one in the Albanian as well.
4:12:06So, witness, you're asked um beginning
4:12:11at line 20 in the English
4:12:15And
4:12:20believe it's line 19.
4:12:31It's a sentence that starts, "What was
4:12:33the conflict you had with Shukri Buouya?
4:12:35If you can tell us more about that."
4:12:39And your answer is, "Everything that I
4:12:41told you already is all there was to it.
4:12:44I don't have anything else. So the end
4:12:46of it was when he spoke with soldiers
4:12:49who came from La Pushnik after that
4:12:52battle. The next page please and said
4:12:56you guys can go wherever you want. It's
4:12:58over.
4:13:00But I turned the soldiers back to tell
4:13:02them go back to the front. Then he left
4:13:06and we never had any further
4:13:07cooperation.
4:13:10Do you stand by that testimony you gave
4:13:12to the SPL?
4:13:19This was on the 26th of July
4:13:24>> when the Lushnik battle happened and
4:13:27after the fall of Lushnik there was
4:13:29sports and yes after this time Shukri
4:13:33and I we saw each other but he went to
4:13:37Nerodyimma zone
4:13:40>> is more with um what actually happened
4:13:43there. He came and and spoke with the
4:13:46soldiers and told them to go wherever
4:13:49they want. It's over.
4:13:52>> You then responded and told the soldiers
4:13:54to stay and go back to the front.
4:13:57And then he left. Correct.
4:14:02>> Yes. Correct. Indeed. So he told the
4:14:05soldiers to go because there is no K any
4:14:08longer.
4:14:10And then we returned to the front again
4:14:14and of course we got together. I mean
4:14:16where else could we go? Yes, absolutely
4:14:17correct.
4:14:19And we continued to fight and he went
4:14:22elsewhere.
4:14:23>> This is another example of you
4:14:25overruling
4:14:27um
4:14:29a decision by
4:14:31Shukri Buya. Correct. you loot him,
4:14:35>> please. Uh, it's just this one. No
4:14:38others. But I think you're just
4:14:39repeating it. And I'm really sorry to
4:14:41hear that you're repeating it time after
4:14:43time. It is just this one. Um, and it
4:14:47was about the front. We didn't have
4:14:49anywhere else to go. How would we
4:14:51enforce that order at the time? Where
4:14:54would we go? This is it. There's nothing
4:14:56else.
4:14:58There's only one and it's this one. But
4:15:01you're mentioning it a lot as if there
4:15:04were different things but it's only this
4:15:06one and this happened during the war at
4:15:09the front.
4:15:12>> I'm going to turn now to a different
4:15:13topic which is a topic that was raised
4:15:16uh by the prosecutor with you at the end
4:15:18of her cross-examination and these are
4:15:21I'm going to give you an opportunity to
4:15:23comment on the specific allegations that
4:15:25have been made against you with respect
4:15:27to detentions.
4:15:30Um, and if we could, Mr. President, in
4:15:33order to protect um
4:15:35persons, if we could go into private
4:15:37session, please.
4:15:40Into private session, please, to protect
4:15:43the witness
4:15:45or other witnesses.
4:16:05You're honor private session. Thank you.
4:16:07>> Go ahead, Mr. Mr. Ditch.
4:16:08>> Thank you, Mr. President. Witness, U. Do
4:16:11you know?
4:19:01by the military police.
4:19:06>> I do not know whether the military
4:19:08police took him there, but I know I met
4:19:11him later, had a coffee, and he told me
4:19:14that the military police took him that
4:19:16day. And like you said, he said that
4:19:19he'd had a conflict with them.
4:19:28>> And he also says that uh you
4:19:30interrogated him with some soldiers.
4:19:36>> Is that correct?
4:19:39>> That's not correct. It's not true.
4:19:44You say you saw his car by some Serbian
4:19:46police. Is that correct? Did I
4:19:48understand you correctly?
4:19:52>> B.
4:19:55>> Well, I suspected it was his car.
4:19:58Whether it was or not, I don't know, but
4:20:00I suspected it was his car that was at
4:20:03the Serbian police officers, and he came
4:20:05over and brought us some beers.
4:20:09So on the front um not where the police
4:20:14uh took him perhaps the school as it
4:20:16says there. That's it.
4:20:19>> You're saying you're saying that he was
4:20:20standing with some Serbian police
4:20:22officers
4:20:23>> and then walked across to you and handed
4:20:26you some beers
4:20:29>> for
4:20:29>> Yes.
4:20:31I thought I suspected it was his car.
4:20:35So I said, "Did you handed them some
4:20:38beers as well or just us?" And he said,
4:20:40"No, I didn't." And then the soldiers
4:20:43accompanied him to the military police
4:20:47because neither the soldiers nor I had
4:20:49the right to interrogate him. After the
4:20:52war though, when I met him, he told me
4:20:55or he said allegedly the military police
4:20:58had beaten him up like you said what you
4:21:01said. But after the war, I had coffee
4:21:03with him and this is what he said.
4:21:06actually that when he came over with the
4:21:08beers, you told the military police,
4:21:11"You deal with this guy, see what he
4:21:13wants." Is that correct?
4:21:20>> The soldiers that were close to him, I
4:21:22said, "Well, you take him because no, it
4:21:24wasn't my task to deal with him." Yes,
4:21:26that's true. That's quite true indeed. I
4:21:29I wasn't going to deal with him. Didn't
4:21:31have to deal with him.
4:21:32>> Police to take him.
4:21:38not to take him to take notes and ask
4:21:42whether he was over by the Serbs or not.
4:21:46One had the right to ask somebody else
4:21:48whether they were by the Serbs or not.
4:21:50Nothing more, nothing less.
4:21:53>> Be some reason you turn to the military
4:21:55police. A man comes with beers handing
4:21:56you a beer and you think it's
4:21:59suspicious. Obviously, that's why you
4:22:01turn to the military police.
4:22:08I wasn't there alone. They were there
4:22:11too. I mean the soldiers. I wasn't there
4:22:13on my own.
4:22:16So it was um we had to take note and it
4:22:21was quite the darn thing. There was
4:22:24nothing sinister about it. So he had
4:22:27come over as a guest and whoever came
4:22:30into the war area there were people
4:22:33there who would ask what they were doing
4:22:35there even if they not seen them with
4:22:37the police but when somebody new would
4:22:39come along we would ask them about their
4:22:42name surname where he was going I mean
4:22:45it was a war zone and it was wartime so
4:22:48there's nothing sinister about it
4:22:50>> after what happened when you told the
4:22:52police to deal with him what happened to
4:22:59I do not know what happened to him.
4:23:01Please
4:23:03excuse me.
4:23:06>> He was there with them. He was
4:23:09conversing with them
4:23:12and then he must have told them they
4:23:15probably took him to the school and then
4:23:17released him. I'm sure because there was
4:23:19no reason why they would detain him. No
4:23:21reason why to detain him. I do not know
4:23:24why the conflict happened. Who knows?
4:23:25Maybe it happened on the way. What he
4:23:28told me when I met him later is that
4:23:30this conflict happened on the way.
4:23:33That's when the conflict happened.
4:23:35Another person.
4:32:05And I think whatever it is that you'd
4:32:08like to say, perhaps it's best for them
4:32:10to be said in public rather than in
4:32:12private.
4:32:14>> Public session. Thank you.
4:32:15>> Thank you,
4:32:16>> witness. We are in public session.
4:32:19>> Thank you, Mr. President. Um, witness,
4:32:21you still understand as you give
4:32:23evidence here today that you are a
4:32:24suspect,
4:32:26>> correct?
4:32:30I am not a suspect. I am a witness. I am
4:32:33not a suspect.
4:32:35>> Told you that you are no longer a
4:32:37suspect.
4:32:43>> I haven't asked whether I'm a suspect.
4:32:45They haven't told me that. But I
4:32:49understood it to be that I am a witness,
4:32:52not a suspect. and I feel like one as a
4:32:56witness and that is why I didn't want a
4:32:59lawyer because these comrades here
4:33:03and they said you could even remain
4:33:05silent but I didn't want to stay silent
4:33:08and I didn't want a lawyer because then
4:33:11you'd need a lawyer speak to the lawyer
4:33:13and the lawyer then speaks to you here
4:33:15but I am innocent so I didn't need a
4:33:18lawyer and didn't hire one but I don't
4:33:22understand what you want of me. I know
4:33:26your council of
4:33:30>> of these people and both them and I are
4:33:34former members of the KLA. So I do not
4:33:36know what you are after.
4:33:39>> What I'm after, you just have to answer
4:33:40the questions truthfully.
4:33:43>> Okay.
4:33:45>> So
4:33:48that is exactly what I'm doing.
4:33:49Answering truthfully.
4:33:56No, I'm fine. I'm not worrying at all.
4:33:59>> Um, these incidents that I took you
4:34:02through, the witnesses say they all took
4:34:03place in June or July of 1998.
4:34:07So, I'm I'm giving you that information.
4:34:09And this is the period of time when
4:34:11according to your own evidence um you
4:34:15were not taking orders from Fatmir Limi
4:34:18and you were uh
4:34:22>> I'm sorry. I really am.
4:34:26>> Okay. So, uh people didn't know back
4:34:29then, but they do know now.
4:34:31>> Okay. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
4:34:34The point now I'm trying to make to you
4:34:35is on your testimony you've said that in
4:34:39this time period you were not taking
4:34:41orders or instructions from Fatmir Limi.
4:34:44We've seen where you've said you've
4:34:46pushed back and told Shukri Buouya, I'll
4:34:50be the one organizing in Croy,
4:34:54right? I took you through all of that
4:34:55stuff and I'm putting to you that at
4:34:58this time period when this is happening,
4:35:00you were the highest authority in
4:35:02Cromier.
4:35:04What is your response to that?
4:35:09uh in their
4:35:13>> sir council the time you are referring
4:35:15to
4:35:18>> I mentioned only about the fighting when
4:35:23shukri was not there but I reported
4:35:27otherwise I reported to him and to
4:35:29fatimai in my territory where I operated
4:35:33there was no prison then later on it was
4:35:37proven that These prisons existed
4:35:40somewhere else where they were existed.
4:35:42I don't know why you are fighting me
4:35:46just because I'm telling the truth about
4:35:48the KLA.
4:35:50There were no prisons in the terrain in
4:35:53the in the territory where I operated.
4:36:01>> I didn't ask anything about prisons. So
4:36:04let me take you to the next question I
4:36:06have which is
4:36:07>> um you understand
4:36:10as someone who is a suspect
4:36:13>> that it's in your interest to create an
4:36:15organization of the KLA that circumvents
4:36:18you
4:36:21right so you've given evidence for
4:36:23example that you had nothing to do with
4:36:24the military police
4:36:27that assists you in your defense against
4:36:29any potential accusation that you were
4:36:31involved in detentions
4:36:33doesn't it? It's self- serving.
4:36:38>> You lut them. Uh
4:36:42>> there are evidence
4:36:46that the military
4:36:48police were separate.
4:36:52The SPO has read it. I have written
4:36:56evidence
4:36:59that military police was separate and
4:37:02didn't ask me for anything. I have a
4:37:05document
4:37:07where I was asked by the military police
4:37:10to cooperate with them. It's the case of
4:37:14a co- villager Nazir Uluri.
4:37:18when the military police took his
4:37:21passport
4:37:24and said when you bring 2,000 Deutsch
4:37:27mark we will give back your passport.
4:37:30Then I sent
4:37:32uh a letter to the brigade
4:37:35asking them to cooperate with me and not
4:37:38have things happen like in the case of
4:37:41this person whom they took the passport
4:37:44and asked money to return it. So the
4:37:47military police did not cooperate.
4:37:51I have asked for their cooperation and I
4:37:54think the document to that effect is
4:37:57found here in the court. I would kindly
4:38:00ask you to produce the document so that
4:38:03you can see for yourself what I wrote. I
4:38:06would kindly ask the prosecutor if she
4:38:09has it to produce it.
4:38:12document that shows that the military
4:38:15police took away the passport from my co
4:38:17villager and asked him to bring them
4:38:202000. Your honor, can you bring that
4:38:23document here?
4:38:29>> Yeah. Thank you. No witness.
4:38:31>> That's not what we're doing at this
4:38:32time. We're just dealing with your
4:38:34questions and answers.
4:38:35>> Yes. So, let me just put put it to you
4:38:40that much of your evidence about not
4:38:42having any ability to control the
4:38:45military police in your own battalion,
4:38:48for example, or um the fact that you say
4:38:51that Fatmir Limi appointed platoon
4:38:54commanders by circumventing you and they
4:38:57reported around you and went straight to
4:38:59Fatmir Limi. Um,
4:39:04these are all this is all testimony
4:39:06designed to create the impression that
4:39:08other people if there did if something
4:39:10did go wrong it was the responsibility
4:39:12of other people above you.
4:39:14Do you have a response to that?
4:39:20>> What you are putting to me is not true.
4:39:22I already told the truth of what really
4:39:26happened when I took the oath. I said
4:39:30that I want I will tell only the truth
4:39:33and what I said is the truth. I also
4:39:37told my war comrades that I will always
4:39:41tell the truth not only before this
4:39:43court.
4:39:46International criminal tribunal for the
4:39:47former Yugoslavia in the Limi case heard
4:39:52your evidence and concluded that because
4:39:54of your denials of involvement in some
4:39:57of these crimes, you are a witness of
4:39:59diminished credibility. And I'll give
4:40:01you an opportunity to tell the court
4:40:03whether you accept the conclusion of the
4:40:05trial chamber in the Limi case that you
4:40:07are a witness of diminished credibility.
4:40:20>> You are wrong in what you are saying.
4:40:24I have only spoken the truth
4:40:27and I have not he kept anything secret.
4:40:30I'm sorry but you are wrong.
4:40:37I regret to say but I don't know what
4:40:41you are saying
4:40:45question.
4:40:52>> No questions.
4:40:53>> Thank you.
4:40:56Uh
4:40:57>> yes I do have questions your honor. If I
4:40:59could have a moment,
4:41:17just a kind reminder, if you're going to
4:41:19tender some item in evidence, please do
4:41:22it at the time you finished quest your
4:41:24questions concerning that item rather
4:41:26than waiting to the end. Thank you,
4:41:28honor. I'm grateful.
4:41:34>> Good afternoon, witness. Um, my name is
4:41:36Aiden Ellis and I represent Mr.
4:41:38Jakobnichi.
4:41:41>> Good afternoon.
4:41:44>> Remains today and and then into tomorrow
4:41:46morning as well.
4:41:49Uh, and I want to start please with uh
4:41:51the point where you get to Cromier uh in
4:41:55April of 1998
4:41:57uh and when you're starting to set up
4:41:59the KA there. Um it it's right, isn't
4:42:03it, that at that point of time uh you
4:42:06and other people in the KA were using
4:42:08pseudonyms uh in order to keep your
4:42:10identity hidden from the Serbian regime.
4:42:13Yes.
4:42:18We use the pseudonyms
4:42:20to protect our families
4:42:30because we are not so as prepared as the
4:42:33Serbs. Technically they were more
4:42:36prepared so to protect our families
4:42:39rather than ourselves. I think
4:42:43>> because you knew at the time that the
4:42:45Serb if the Serbian regime knew that you
4:42:47were against them, they would take it
4:42:49out on your families. Correct.
4:42:55>> Yes. Correct.
4:43:02Uh and so to organize in your local
4:43:05area, you you had to start slowly by
4:43:08contacting people that you knew uh in
4:43:11secret. Correct.
4:43:17>> Sucked.
4:43:17>> Correct.
4:43:20>> Early task was to dig trenches. Correct.
4:43:27>> P.
4:43:28>> Yes.
4:43:31Uh, and you did that in order to set up
4:43:33positions that you could try to defend.
4:43:35Correct.
4:43:38>> Paul.
4:43:39>> Yes.
4:43:45>> Volunteers were coming to you to join,
4:43:48weren't they?
4:43:53>> Yes.
4:43:56New volunteers who had their own weapons
4:43:58could join you straight away, while
4:44:00those without weapons had to wait for a
4:44:02weapon to be found for them. Correct.
4:44:09>> Yes. Yes.
4:44:16>> And in relation to uniforms, witness
4:44:19volunteers in in your area would buy
4:44:21clothes at the local market, wouldn't
4:44:23they?
4:44:27Yeah, you can keep.
4:44:28>> No, they bought
4:44:33the clothes on the market and there was
4:44:38a lady a dress maker that saw them
4:44:44>> were homemade uniforms effectively,
4:44:46weren't they?
4:44:49>> Yes.
4:44:53And
4:44:55uh at times when there was fighting,
4:44:58civilians who had a weapon would would
4:45:00simply join your ranks to help you with
4:45:01that particular fight. That that's
4:45:03right, isn't it?
4:45:09>> Poor.
4:45:10>> Yes, there were some instances too.
4:45:14>> You the local civilian population were
4:45:17supporting you uh when they could,
4:45:19weren't they?
4:45:22Poor.
4:45:23>> Yes. Always
4:45:25>> they donated money to you, didn't they?
4:45:29>> Poor.
4:45:30>> Yes.
4:45:32>> When they could, didn't they?
4:45:36>> Yes. Food, money, everything. But it was
4:45:40the duty of the logistics to deal with
4:45:42that.
4:45:44>> Quite. But in general terms, anything
4:45:46the civilians could spare, they were
4:45:48supporting the KA with. Correct.
4:45:52Well,
4:45:53>> yes.
4:45:56>> Your unit al you sometimes also receive
4:45:58donations from people living in the
4:45:59diaspora. Correct. Living abroad.
4:46:08>> Yes.
4:46:09But I never received anything because I
4:46:13was working in another sector. But the
4:46:16logistics people did.
4:46:19the person who was responsible for the
4:46:21logistics.
4:46:24When they brought these donations to us
4:46:27at the battalion, we had to take them to
4:46:30the brigade and then they divided among
4:46:34everyone.
4:46:36>> Your interview with the prosecution, you
4:46:38gave the example uh of a Mercedes car
4:46:42that you received. Do you recall that
4:46:45example, sir?
4:46:47Paul.
4:46:48>> Yes.
4:46:51It was someone from SEA that gave the
4:46:53car to me.
4:46:56Now he is a retiree. He used to work in
4:46:59Germany.
4:47:03>> The general staff, didn't you?
4:47:07>> For
4:47:08>> Yes.
4:47:11>> I had to give it to them.
4:47:15>> That was voluntarily done, wasn't it?
4:47:24There was nothing personal even though
4:47:26it was given to me. It gave it he gave
4:47:29it for the ka it was not a personal
4:47:32gift.
4:47:34So I there was not for me to decide.
4:47:40interview with the prosecution was you
4:47:41were asked why did you give it to the
4:47:44general staff and your response was
4:47:46because they were going on TV and if the
4:47:49whole world was going to see them the
4:47:51world should see them in a good car
4:47:52>> do do you remember saying that sir
4:47:55>> Paul
4:47:56>> yes that's right
4:48:00so you you understood it was important
4:48:02for the image for of the ka for people
4:48:05to be seen in a good car it's as simple
4:48:07as that isn't
4:48:10is
4:48:14>> because the reality at the time was that
4:48:16the ka on the ground were traveling in
4:48:18in whatever they could using old
4:48:20vehicles, tractors, mules. Correct.
4:48:27>> Oh,
4:48:28>> yes. Yes. Walking on foot.
4:48:32>> That was safer. Correct.
4:48:36>> Yes.
4:48:43Can I show you then a map please which
4:48:45is DJK 00776
4:49:15And whilst that's coming up, witness, I
4:49:17apologize that it's a modern map, so it
4:49:19has uh, for example, an auto route that
4:49:21wasn't there at the time, but I I hope
4:49:23it will serve to show the the key
4:49:25locations.
4:49:39Are we able to zoom in a little towards
4:49:41the middle of that page? I think it's
4:49:43probably too faint to read at the
4:49:45moment. Is it witness?
4:49:49>> Yeah, but it's carried.
4:49:53>> Here it is on on on that map. Witness.
4:49:56>> Yes. Yes.
4:50:04And am I seeing correctly that below
4:50:08Cromier is another uh village mentioned
4:50:10in your evidence Peter Stitcher, forgive
4:50:13the pronunciation.
4:50:15>> Yes, Petitz.
4:50:18>> Thank you. Uh and then closer to the
4:50:21main road, Sarva. Is that right?
4:50:25>> Yes.
4:50:28Uh and then
4:50:31if we look to the left of Cromier uh to
4:50:37the west you you should see Kletchka
4:50:39there is do do you see that?
4:50:44>> Well
4:50:47between uh Crimeir and Klitschka
4:50:53>> I can't be accurate. It's not that far.
4:51:00>> Are you able to help with approximately
4:51:01how how far or perhaps how long it would
4:51:03take you to go from one to the other at
4:51:05that time? Of course.
4:51:11>> I wouldn't be able to say
4:51:17c
4:51:17>> can you help me with this? that at the
4:51:19time the road between uh or the way way
4:51:22to get between Cromier and Kletchka
4:51:24would have been on an unmade road.
4:51:26Correct?
4:51:30>> Unmade. Yes, it was.
4:51:33>> Um and what perhaps doesn't appear fully
4:51:35on the map is that the this is Kletchka
4:51:37is is part of the Berisha Mountains.
4:51:39Correct.
4:51:42>> Yes.
4:51:44This unmade road went over uh was
4:51:46mountainous, wasn't it?
4:51:49>> Huh?
4:51:49>> Yes.
4:52:00Now,
4:52:02can I deal then? I'm thinking still at
4:52:06this point about the relatively early
4:52:09period in your your your evidence May
4:52:111998 w with where Serbian forces were
4:52:15were positioned. Um
4:52:18am I right sir that the towns of and
4:52:21Lipan were controlled by Serbian forces?
4:52:28>> Yes.
4:52:30And the road that we see between Lipan,
4:52:34uh, that's a part of a main road that
4:52:36runs between Pristina and Prisan, isn't
4:52:39it?
4:52:43>> Yes.
4:52:46>> Nashville Vault Road. Correct.
4:52:50>> Yes. Correct.
4:52:53>> Controlled by Serbian forces, wasn't it?
4:53:03They moved. What time period are you
4:53:07asking me?
4:53:10>> 98, sir.
4:53:14>> Yes. Yes. The Serbs moved along that
4:53:19road. Uh, and was there a checkpoint on
4:53:22that road, a Serbian checkpoint on that
4:53:24road at Doula
4:53:27>> Paul?
4:53:28>> Yes.
4:53:30>> Uh, a mobile Serbian checkpoint at Sarva
4:53:38>> Capo.
4:53:39>> Yes, there were. Yes.
4:53:42>> If if I've understood correctly, your
4:53:43positions at Sarah Lever would have been
4:53:46up in the hill or mountain side
4:53:48overlooking the main road. Correct.
4:53:52>> Yes.
4:53:54>> Yes.
4:53:56>> It It wasn't safe for you to use the
4:53:58main road, was it?
4:54:04>> Correct.
4:54:14Uh
4:54:17on the map in the north
4:54:20uh east I think we see an airport marked
4:54:24uh that also was uh
4:54:27Serbian controlled and used by the Serb
4:54:29military. Correct.
4:54:38>> P.
4:54:39>> Yes.
4:54:41Is it is it right that there was a major
4:54:43Serbian army base and ammunition depot
4:54:45near to the airport in the mountains of
4:54:47Galesh?
4:54:57>> I heard that that was the case. Yes.
4:55:01>> Um and these bases were used by the
4:55:03Serbian army to to shell the British
4:55:05mountains, weren't they?
4:55:09>> Norm. Yes, they shelf from all
4:55:13directions.
4:55:20Uh, and do you see also on the map the
4:55:22other main road in the area which is
4:55:24part of the road from Pristina to PA and
4:55:27runs through the Pushnik?
4:55:37I can't say it, but yes, I know of it.
4:55:43And on that road on to the east of La
4:55:48Pushnik, there was a major Serbian base
4:55:50at Karan. Correct.
4:55:56>> Po.
4:55:58>> Yes.
4:56:01Uh and on the other side of La Pushnik,
4:56:03it moves through Mchan and Kieva.
4:56:07And those were also Serbian controlled,
4:56:09weren't they?
4:56:14>> And they said this.
4:56:15>> I don't know, but I think so. Yes.
4:56:40Um, your honors, that might be a good
4:56:42point to break for the day if it's
4:56:44convenient.
4:56:47>> Thank you, Mr. Ellis. Witness, we we're
4:56:50finished for today. You will have to
4:56:51come back tomorrow morning. Hopefully we
4:56:54will be finished with you in the morning
4:56:56of tomorrow. Uh please do not discuss
4:56:59your testimony with anybody outside of
4:57:01the courtroom and you may join the court
4:57:05usher to leave the room
4:57:18>> something Mr. Ellis
4:57:20>> uh only for the purposes of timing. I I
4:57:22I hope 45 minutes uh in the morning will
4:57:24suffice.
4:57:35>> Not yet, your honor. Although I uh uh I
4:57:38I'm going to have some further questions
4:57:39that the map may help with.
4:57:40>> That's fine. No problem. Thank you.
4:57:54So, we are adjourned until 9:00 a.m.
4:57:56tomorrow.
4:57:57>> All right.

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