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212- The Power of Presentation: Trial Lessons From Robert Clifford — Transcript

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0:00Today on Trial Lawyer Nation, I am so
0:02excited because we have a legend. We
0:04have someone I've wanted to have on the
0:06podcast since 2018 when we started. And
0:09uh ironically, he reached out to us and
0:12I'm so happy to have Bob Clifford. He is
0:14an incredible lawyer out of Chicago.
0:16Bob, thank you for joining us today.
0:19>> Michael, pleasure to be with you, man.
0:20Nice to meet you.
0:22>> For the few people that haven't heard of
0:23you, tell us a little bit about
0:24yourself. Well, uh, Clifford Law is a
0:28Chicago based plaintiff's personal
0:29injury firm. Uh, we, uh, do a lot of,
0:34uh, different kind of injury litigation
0:37that ranges the entire, you know,
0:39spectrum of, uh, whether it's an
0:41automobile case all the way to the most
0:43complicated of a aviation disasters. Uh,
0:47I have represented families in every
0:50domestic commercial aviation crash since
0:531979.
0:55uh DC10 that was on takeoff here in
0:58Chicago that lost its engine and uh
1:01crashed in a local community sadly
1:03killing everyone on board. That similar
1:06case just occurred about a year or so
1:08ago in Louisville, Kentucky.
1:10>> Yeah. with a UPS cargo craft that had
1:14three pilots and when it crashed on
1:17takeoff, engine falling off um killing
1:20another dozen people on on the ground
1:22and causing massive damages and injuries
1:24below. We currently represent many
1:27families in that disaster. And then I'm
1:30also currently involved in uh the DC uh
1:36litigation, the Washington DC litigation
1:38of an American Airlines from your home
1:40state of Texas uh on its way landing in
1:43uh at Reagan National that was uh hit by
1:46a US Army Sorski helicopter uh killing
1:5060 passengers, four crew and uh sadly
1:53the three US Army officers on the
1:55helicopter. So, we do a lot of uh
1:58aviation litigation. I'm just ending up
2:00as lead counsel for all of the families
2:03against Boeing
2:05uh for the 737 disasters that occurred
2:08in Indonesia and in uh Adisaba,
2:13Ethiopia. Uh and on that plane, there
2:15were families from 35 uh nations around
2:19the country, around the world. U and so
2:22this business has taken me around the
2:24world. Uh it's I'm very excited about
2:26it. We uh work very hard to get it the
2:30right way. We're not lawyers uh uh who
2:34uh are easy to settle cases. We we I
2:38just soon try a case as opposed to
2:40settle it. And um I' I've learned in my
2:43practice that having an aggressive
2:45approach to settlement negotiations has
2:48benefited my my clients greatly. uh you
2:51know, but that means you're in for a
2:53fight and and that's okay. Uh you know,
2:55if you come to Chicago, uh the the
2:58Chicago's split up into in sectors. The
3:00southside Chicagoans we think we're the
3:03toughest. The west side uh Chicagoans,
3:06they think they're the smartest and and
3:08the north side uh Chicagoans, they they
3:11think that they're above it all and
3:12they're the hoy of our community. So,
3:14you know, that's kind of how it goes
3:15with the legal community here in
3:16Chicago. But
3:17>> And where are you from? I I'm a
3:19southside guy.
3:20>> Yeah, I had a feeling
3:21>> that makes me a White Sox fan, Michael,
3:23that you know, if you're from Chicago
3:25and you were born on the Southside,
3:26you're a White Sox fan. If you're born
3:28on the north side, you're a Cubs fan.
3:30So, there you go. And the Southside, we
3:32we think we're tougher than the
3:34Northsiders.
3:36>> So, I want to start with your
3:38background. So, obviously, you would not
3:39be lead counsel on all these mega cases
3:42had you not proven it uh in the
3:45courtroom over the years. So, how did
3:47you learn how to work up a case and how
3:50to try a case?
3:51>> You know, I was blessed. I when I
3:54attended the Depal University College of
3:57Law and I one day a man showed up and
4:03lectured at my class on civil
4:05procedures. His name was Philip Corboy.
4:08And Mr. Corboy
4:10at that time was the dean of the
4:12plaintiffs bar here in Chicago. had a
4:14national reputation for excellence in
4:17preparation and his trial lawyer skills.
4:20You know, he was the son of a police
4:21officer himself
4:23and he uh I was smitten with the guy and
4:26I said to my professor after class, I
4:28said, "Geez, how do you get a job with a
4:30guy like that?" Because I was, you know,
4:32I I just wanted I wanted to know more
4:34about this man. And he says, "Oh, he's a
4:36Loyola University guy. He does not hire
4:38people from Depal." uh that you know
4:41Depal is the largest Catholic university
4:43in in uh America and and Loyola is the
4:47other Catholic university here in
4:48Chicago and but Phil had said that he
4:51was going back to his office. So I went
4:53down to the fourth floor cafeteria where
4:55we had the row of telephones and I
4:57pulled out the yellow pages. I've heard
4:58those for those of you who remember what
5:00the yellow pages might have been that's
5:02the Google of today and I looked him up.
5:04He said he was going to his office. I
5:06got his office address and I walked over
5:08to the office and I knocked on the door,
5:10saw the receptionist. I said, "I was
5:11just at a class that Mr. Corvoy taught
5:13and I have one more question. There's a
5:15kid out here got a question. You know, I
5:17let him in." So, I came in and I said,
5:18"How do I get a job with a guy like
5:19you?" And he said, "Well, if you have
5:21courage enough to come in here and ask
5:23me that question, he used another word.
5:25Uh, and uh, I'm going to call your dean.
5:28If your dean likes you, I'm going to
5:29give you a job." Well, the dean didn't
5:31did know me and did like me and I got a
5:33job.
5:34>> That's awesome. And and I've talked to
5:35and I've thought about that when I go
5:37over my career because what if I had not
5:39shown up at class that day or what if I
5:41had not gone to you know his office that
5:43day? I mean how would my life be
5:45different? But I took an immediate
5:48liking to to the number one that fact
5:53that we as pliff lawyers are helping
5:56families who can't help themselves, who
6:00are in such a state of distress
6:03or grief
6:05uh and and or injury that they don't
6:08think clearly. They aren't on the right
6:10tracks. Their lives have been
6:12disruptive.
6:14And and you know, some of us, we all
6:16have our various skills, right? I mean,
6:19I I love golf. I'm a terrible golfer,
6:21but I see these golfers, you know, they
6:23have a a wedge and they're bouncing the
6:25ball up in their hands and they're
6:26throwing it in the air and they're
6:28flipping it around. I can't do any of
6:29that, right? But when when I lament that
6:31I can't do any of that, I say, "Well,
6:33but but can Tiger Woods pick a jury?"
6:35And and and so I just it it works for
6:38me. It has always worked for me. I I
6:41teach my young lawyers that they are the
6:43eye of a hurricane. They're the eye of
6:45the storm. That someone has to be the
6:48adult in the room and and and I'm I'm
6:51calm in that respect and I think that's
6:53one of the skill sets that I I bring to
6:55the table. I always love the rules of
6:58evidence. U and as you know uh that's so
7:02essential to what we do in terms of uh
7:04the courtroom. If you know the rules of
7:06you know it's like a golfer if he knows
7:08the rules of the game it might help him
7:09a lot. you know the rules of evidence,
7:11it helps you a lot, right? U I was on
7:13the law review and and uh I en so I'm a
7:16good writer. I enjoy to this day I enjoy
7:18writing. I I write a lot of my own
7:20material and I edit a lot of material
7:21that that goes out here and and so you
7:25know it was just a body of I've never
7:28regretted for one day doing the work
7:31that I do. And I and as you know over
7:34the years a lot of injury lawyers are
7:36assailed they they they badmouththed.
7:39They get assailed for you know being
7:40ambulance chasers and being bad guys you
7:44know that and that's true. There are a
7:46lot of lawyers as you know as well as I
7:48do that do bad things and and they are
7:51not ethical and they are not you know
7:54their scruples are are off. I I you
7:57that's not you and it's not me and I'm
7:59very proud of what I do and I know that
8:01the the first time something goes wrong
8:03for some of the very people who
8:05criticize the that kind of conduct I'm
8:07one of the first people they call uh so
8:11so your reputation matters your
8:12integrity matters your reputation in the
8:15courthouse matters and uh you know I've
8:18been president of the Chicago Bar
8:19Association and and uh head of the
8:22sectional litigation of the American Bar
8:24the largest in in the ABA's
8:26book of sections and I'm I'm very proud
8:29of that because I'm proud to be a lawyer
8:30and uh I think that what we do uh helps
8:34and and traveling around the world you
8:36will see that the law the rule of law
8:39that we in America embrace and enjoy is
8:43such a positive thing for us as
8:45Americans versus what you might see if
8:47you go to you know some of the foreign
8:49nations that that we travel. Um so you
8:52know it just takes and and I always took
8:55to I take the medicine you know I've
8:57done a lot of medical malpractice work
8:59in my life and you know I've I have been
9:02through all the tort reform battles you
9:05know start hell in 1978
9:08I remember seeing something about a
9:09thing called tort reform and I had to go
9:11look it up I didn't know what it was
9:13>> well you know this fancy word of reform
9:15is really a euphemism for taking
9:17people's rights away and uh so I you
9:20know in Illinois. We've had massive
9:22battles here in Illinois uh on the tort
9:25reform front as you have had in Texas. I
9:28think we probably have had more success
9:29here in Illinois than you've had in
9:32Texas to protect rights
9:34>> and and you know I was in the middle of
9:36that and and proudly so because uh it
9:40just a passion comes to me naturally
9:42that uh it's just not right that these
9:45people you know can can take away uh the
9:49you know the rights of individuals and
9:51it's it's not because they're making the
9:54community better. They're just saving
9:55money for themselves. It's like I'm
9:57involved in all this aviation
9:59litigation, right? And I'm a a severe
10:01critic of the FAA. Uh you've seen I I
10:05assume it's on the news in in Texas that
10:08all these tire blowouts uh on airplanes
10:11landing American Airlines and United.
10:13Okay. Well, well, that's just bad
10:15maintenance. That's somebody who either
10:17A isn't doing their job on properly
10:19inflating tires or B, and I think it's
10:21the latter, b that they are trying to
10:24get more life out of these tires. to
10:26see. Well, if we get more life out of a
10:29product that keeps our costs down. All
10:31right. And yet, you'll hear, you know,
10:33the president of the company will get on
10:36the air afterwards and they'll say, "Oh,
10:38we're the safety of our customers is our
10:41first job one, right?" Well, then, but
10:43how about we go to the federal
10:44courthouse where I'm dealing with them
10:47uh here in Chicago a lot. And what
10:48they're saying is, uh, judge, throw this
10:51case out because it's a a forum
10:53non-convenience or apply some law that
10:56restricts damages, judge. Let's get into
10:58a choice of law fight and and go and
11:01focus on a law that caps damages. So,
11:04you know, what they do in the open in
11:06the public is entirely different than
11:08you and I see in the courtroom. And that
11:10kind of stuff revs me up and gives me a
11:14moral authority to say to the our
11:16clients and to the public, look at the
11:18facts of what they're really doing.
11:19They're lying to you. And it's it's easy
11:22to get worked up about that stuff for
11:24me. And I love it.
11:26>> You talked about, you know, when you're
11:28in trial, you need to be calm. You need
11:30to be like the eye of the hurricane.
11:32Everything is going crazy around you,
11:33but you are. And and I've been working
11:35on that really hard. I've, you know,
11:37gotten better at it, but I want to I
11:38want to get even better. How do you stay
11:41calm? How do you stay calm when things
11:43because there's always unexpected
11:44things, people trying to pull things on
11:46you, you know, how do you stay calm in
11:48trial,
11:48>> you know? I think it I think it just it
11:50comes with uh the experience and the
11:53passage of time. I I don't think I was
11:54always that way. I you know I don't know
11:57if this has happened to you in your life
11:58but one of my best friends in life has
12:00become uh a lawyer who was my biggest
12:04adversary uh in the early years of my
12:06practice
12:07>> and and a guy uh his name is C Barry
12:10Montgomery. He was at the when I first
12:13met him he was regarded as the best
12:16defense trial lawyer in town. And the
12:19first case that I tried against him he
12:21pulled he absolutely pulled my pants
12:23down. I got rattled. I got nervous. I
12:26got all sorts of bad things. And thank
12:28God uh the verdict came in at the exact
12:32offer that we had turned down. Okay. So,
12:35you know, as opposed to getting a goose
12:36egg or something, right? And uh uh but
12:39over time, I I you can practice. I talk
12:43I teach my young lawyers about putting
12:45fans in their hands. You ever meet a guy
12:48and you shake his hand and it's all wet
12:50and clammy and all that? And and I tell
12:52my young lawyers, take your mind to a
12:55place where you're trying to control
12:58your heartbeat and your and your blood
13:00pressure and just pretend you got a fan
13:02in your hands and that's calming you
13:05down. And and so that's part one of
13:08that. Part two of that once again is is
13:11preparation. I
13:14here even to this day, Michael, if I
13:16were to be trying a case next week, I I
13:18have a a case book that I study on the
13:21objections.
13:23>> You got to refresh your memory
13:25>> on the rules, all right, of engagement
13:27and the rules of the of objection and
13:30the rules of of And then finally, I do a
13:33lot of uh my trial stuff and focus group
13:36stuff. And what I've learned by that is
13:39if you come into the courtroom and you
13:43have done all this preparation, you know
13:45your file that then then you just have
13:49to do. You don't have to think.
13:51>> Yeah.
13:52>> As much and that gives you a resolve
13:54that gives you to me it gives me a
13:56calmness. Uh and uh and you know just
14:00try not to overreact because the one
14:02thing you know this as well as anyone
14:04when you're in front of a jury somebody
14:06is always watching you. There are 12
14:08people in the box maybe 14 if you have
14:10the alternates or 16 okay there is
14:13always one person watching you and and
14:16you can't just you know take it for
14:18granted that uh you know when you're
14:20picking your nose or doing whatever the
14:22heck you're doing or you know nowadays
14:24it's terrible. you see these young
14:26lawyers sitting at council table and
14:28they're doing they're using their uh
14:29they're they're sending text messages
14:30out. Okay, you have to stay focused on
14:34the task at hand and not be distracted
14:37by anything. But but the one word I I go
14:40back to all the time, if I learned
14:42anything from Phil Cory, it was that
14:45preparation was the byword of what
14:47you're doing when you're in that uh
14:49courtroom. If you're not prepared, then
14:51you're you're doing a disservice to your
14:53client.
14:55And how did you take advantage of
14:57working for [snorts] Phil Cory to you
14:58know another legendary lawyer to really
15:01hone your skills?
15:02>> Well, he you know I was incredibly
15:05fortunate that that uh you know he kind
15:08of like adopted me. I mean I in the last
15:10year of law school like I never went to
15:12class and my grades got better. Okay.
15:14I'd show up for the I would I would show
15:16up for the exams and I'd take the test
15:18or I'd show up for an occasional class
15:21and they call on me and I'd have the
15:22answer. But one thing hanging around
15:25with Phil, I also hung around with a lot
15:27of other lawyers, you know. Uh, how
15:29about the the name Joe Jal? You remember
15:31that name?
15:32>> Absolutely.
15:33>> I I drank I Well, I kind of was the
15:36designated driver while Phil and Joe
15:37[laughter] J were pounding them down
15:39here in a bar in Chicago.
15:40>> Well, that had to be so fun. And so the
15:42point being that I was exposed through
15:45him to a lot of the great legendary
15:48lawyers from around the country and and
15:51they they they had they they have
15:53something common about them and and and
15:56it's a confidence and it's a confidence
15:59that comes from being prepared and and
16:02to being a aware and to there's a level
16:05of focus uh on the tasks at hand that
16:10that I think breeds, you know, you are
16:13what you think about most. Uh and and
16:16and that was one I think that's a common
16:18thing that you find among the greatest
16:21lawyers in in the country. And you know,
16:24I'm a member of this group, the inner
16:25circle of advocates. Heaven forbid we
16:27call oursel the outer circle of
16:29advocates. Uh but if you look at all
16:32there's a hundred of the best trial
16:33lawyers in the country and and you look
16:35at those lawyers, they they work hard.
16:38uh they they they are tireless in their
16:41uh preparation. They're not afraid to
16:44say that they don't know something and
16:46and they call a col a colleague and and
16:48kick things around. They're not afraid
16:50to say they don't know given thing and
16:52research it. Uh they don't pretend to
16:54know everything. Uh you know, you get
16:56over yourself. Yeah, you got this great
16:58reputation, but that's yesterday's
17:00business. Now you got a task at hand on
17:02a new matter for a new client and they
17:04need you and they need you to be focused
17:05and they need you to earn that
17:07reputation not just you know bring it to
17:09the table. You got to earn it.
17:13>> Have you thought about writing a book or
17:14have you written a book yet?
17:15>> I have direct I have not written the
17:17book and I thought about writing it and
17:19I'm not I'm not sure what I would say
17:22and I'm not sure who the heck would read
17:24it. I've been encouraged to I have two
17:26lovely grandsons and I've been
17:29encouraged to write a book so that they
17:31could read it. Uh that's a possibility,
17:34but if you know I don't know it's maybe
17:37down maybe it's on the table down the
17:39line. Right now I'm working too much.
17:41>> I I get it. You know I' I've written one
17:43on well real like I've written some
17:45small stuff we published ourselves but
17:46I've written one published by trial
17:48guides on trucking and
17:50>> really yeah
17:50>> because I spent a lot of time
17:52practicing. It took me five years to
17:54write a book. It should have taken me
17:55about a year to work on. Uh,
17:57>> that's the problem. I mean, that's the
17:58problem. Plus, I'm at least I I try I
18:01don't know here. You never know what
18:03other people say about you, but I I
18:05don't cons I'll answer a question, but I
18:08I don't consider myself a braggard and
18:11and that and and you know, so I'm not
18:14out to
18:14>> Yeah. I don't
18:15>> I'm not out to tell war stories. I'm not
18:17out to embarrass somebody by having, you
18:19know, taking I mean, I've won cases that
18:22I shouldn't have won because I out
18:23lawyered somebody, right? Do I really
18:25want to say that?
18:27>> Well, I think you could if you really
18:28dug into and I mean, as good as you are,
18:31when I I found when I dug in and really
18:33had to analyze like, okay, what am I
18:35doing instinctively? How do I put that
18:36into steps? And then doing the research
18:38to like realize I do have gaps in my
18:40knowledge I didn't know I had. It was
18:42really u a really good experience. And
18:45then you know then you're able to you
18:47know one of the joys I get is you know I
18:49get an email from a lawyer that I've
18:51never met in another part of the country
18:53said I use this part of your book and I
18:55got this verdict and it feels really
18:56good. You know I don't make any money
18:58off that but
18:59>> it feels really good and I I would
19:00encourage you to uh to do a book on with
19:04either on trials or building a law firm
19:06or something because you've got so much
19:07success built up over the years uh and
19:10then you know you could share it to a
19:12much bigger more enduring audience. Uh
19:14but it is a pain in the butt. It is a
19:15lot of work.
19:16>> May maybe you'll have to be my editor.
19:19>> Uh uh then it would take 10 years
19:21[laughter] because but I do recommend
19:23like Trial Guys has great editors and
19:25they walk you through it and everything.
19:27You know, another I mean it could be
19:29because I do enjoy I must say one of the
19:31things that I go out of my way to do
19:32around here is spend time with the
19:35younger lawyers and I I do enjoy the
19:38mentoring part of
19:40>> you know passing on what I know because
19:43I that helps to shorten the learning
19:45curve for them.
19:47>> [snorts]
19:47>> uh you know I just this morning one of
19:50my young lawyers told me about an
19:51inspection uh that's going to take place
19:54on a a site of a of a products case and
19:58um I you know gave her some ideas about
20:01well did you do do you know line up
20:03these four things and uh I like doing
20:06things like that that's you know way of
20:08passing it on
20:10>> absolutely now even with all your
20:13experience I mean it seems like you
20:14would have faced most situations by now
20:17You still do mock trials and folks
20:18groups. I do.
20:19>> Why it's why is that? Is it just the
20:21preparation or is it more than that?
20:22>> No. Well, I it's two parts. One, it's
20:25the preparation. I mean, that's largely
20:28that on the on on the case. U you know,
20:31there people can can really
20:34get hung up on obscure facts that affect
20:39their decision making that you don't
20:41even think about. And I've got one
20:42example of mine I'll come back to. But
20:44but so I I mean so on a very percase
20:48basis I think you learn things and if
20:51you don't know how people are thinking,
20:52how are you going to make them listen?
20:54That's that's the overall premise. Okay,
20:57that's part one. Part two is uh it's
21:00it's really a preparation thing. I mean,
21:03if you do mock trials the way we do
21:05them, uh, it's it's, you know, the
21:08actual opening statement, it's like, you
21:10know, uh, this is finally just a dress
21:13rehearsal because I've done this so many
21:14times before. I mean, we've in in the
21:17here, they're expensive, so it's got to
21:18be the right case, right? But I mean,
21:20I've had it to where I've had um uh I've
21:24picked a jury and I've had a 100 people
21:26in the wings at a center
21:29uh waiting to hear me that night make
21:33the opening statement, but we picked a
21:34hundred people so that that are
21:36demographically
21:38identical or as near identical as you
21:39can get to the jury that we impanled.
21:42Then the following morning, I'm looking
21:44at the real jury and they look like the
21:46people I spoke with the night before.
21:48That's awesome.
21:49>> I mean, that's good stuff. Okay. And and
21:52that's how that's winning stuff. And
21:53when you're talking about, you know,
21:56asking somebody for tens of millions of
21:59dollars, this is serious work. No. You
22:02know,
22:03>> that's the thing I tell my lawyers is
22:05like when I was in elementary school and
22:08my parents sent me to like a summer
22:10community theater program that we were
22:11doing a play that only our parents and
22:13grandparents would ever watch,
22:14>> right? We spent weeks rehearsing, but
22:17then people want to go try multi-million
22:19dollar cases and just wing it. It's
22:20crazy.
22:21>> Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy. And then, you
22:22know, I have to tell you, you I I said
22:24I'd come back to this one point. One of
22:26the things that convinced me of this
22:28early on, I I represented a case where
22:31uh it was a car crash case and it was a
22:34a very goodnatured man, a boy scout
22:37troop leader picked up two uh inner city
22:41kids from here in Chicago and was taking
22:43them to a a weekend at a boy scout
22:46retreat. All wonderful spirited things.
22:49And he had the two boys in the front
22:51seat of the car and they were belted.
22:54They're each belted and he makes a
22:56left-hand turn in front of an oncoming
22:58vehicle. There's a collision. The boy at
23:00the door dies. The driver dies and they
23:03find this other little boy under the
23:05dash with a terrible brain injury. Okay.
23:08And so now we go to it's a trial of the
23:13injured boy and there's a big fight
23:14about the money. Uh and it was really a
23:17big fight about aortionment of
23:19percentage liability that mattered here
23:21for us on joint and several liability.
23:24>> Yeah.
23:24>> And but we did a number of mock trials
23:26and it and the mock trials were this was
23:28on the front end of I mean this how long
23:31ago this was this is many decades ago
23:33and I kept trying to raise the number of
23:35how much I could credibly ask for.
23:39Okay. And uh without blinking all right
23:43that was the goal. But one something
23:45that came out that fascinated me and
23:47that was on a percentage of who was
23:50responsible. The jurors kept coming back
23:52to the idea that the guy had both boys
23:55in the front seat of the car. You they
23:58kept saying why aren't why weren't those
23:59two kids in the backseat of the car?
24:00They should have been in the backseat of
24:01the car. Okay. And that to them was
24:04decisive about who was responsible on a
24:07percentage basis for their deaths. Now,
24:09you know, you know as well as I do that
24:11probably didn't matter, right? in terms
24:12of Okay. So, sure enough, during the
24:15actual trial,
24:16>> every time I could get it in credibly, I
24:19would say to the witness, uh, you know,
24:21like the EMT, I'd say, "Oh, one more
24:23thing. Do you know why the two boys were
24:24in the front seat of the car?" No, I
24:26have no idea. No, no, no objection.
24:28Comes along, the copper, same thing.
24:30Comes along, a nurse, same thing. So,
24:32now finally, closing argument, we get
24:34the great result. The percentage is how
24:36we wanted in terms of responsibility.
24:38And I could not contain myself. I
24:40typically don't talk to jurors
24:41afterwards, but I did this time. I said,
24:43"Hey, by the way, what did you think
24:45about the fact that the two kids were
24:47not were in the front seat of the car
24:48instead of the back?" They erupted. So,
24:51my point to you is, okay, you're going
24:53to learn things in these mock trials
24:55that are issues in the case that maybe
24:57you that aren't on the face of it, and
24:59these are decisive to maybe the decision
25:02making of the actual jury. And that's
25:04one of the reasons why you do it, you
25:06know. Now fast forward to nowadays.
25:08We're doing AI research in uh we're
25:11doing internetbased stuff. It's
25:13remarkable the new stuff that's these
25:15new tools that are coming along.
25:17>> Do you all have your own in-house
25:19capacity to set up your own mock trials
25:21and focus groups or do you use
25:22consultants or some kind of mix?
25:24>> We use we use consultants. Uh one of my
25:27young guys likes he teaches at at a
25:30local law school. He likes bringing in a
25:32bunch of the students and he pays he
25:34pays them pizza and 10 bucks or
25:36something and makes them sign a
25:38confidentiality agreement. He runs the
25:39facts by them. But uh I by and large I I
25:42I pay the piper and I hire Magna
25:45Services or some of the other Robert
25:47there's a guy in Texas, Robert Hershorn.
25:49>> Yeah, he's great.
25:50>> Yeah, Robert's great. He's a dear friend
25:52and uh I'll hire somebody like Robert
25:54and Robert's got a new AI product out
25:56there. I think he calls it Verdict Hub.
25:58That's pretty good.
25:59>> He's been on the podcast and talked
26:01about it. I haven't used it yet. I mean,
26:03I'm
26:03>> You should try it.
26:05>> Yeah,
26:05>> we like it.
26:06>> We like it. Okay. I've always been a
26:08little skeptical on the AI thing. I
26:10mean, we use AI a lot in the practice.
26:11I've always been a little skeptical in
26:12the jury research, but I do I need to go
26:14try it where I do like a I really want
26:16to get a case where I have the ver the
26:18budget to do the verdict hub
26:20>> and the big data with the Campbell with
26:22real people and like the in person and
26:24just to see what kind of correlation.
26:26>> Yeah, John Campbell's pretty good and
26:28and uh uh Chris Denovi out of LA. If you
26:32don't know Chris, send me a note. I'll
26:33I'll introduce you information.
26:37uh you know nowadays more and more
26:39lawyers are advised uh and I keep going
26:42back and forth on this myself to
26:43specialize in one area like you know I
26:46do you know probably 80% of my my case
26:48my case load is uh commercial trucking
26:52you know my my good friend Joe Freed is
26:54you know known as a trucking lawyer and
26:55just specialized in trucking but then
26:57when you look at the greats I mean you
26:59Jo Jerry Spence you all tried like every
27:02kind of case and you in talking to you I
27:04mean you've done of Of course, aviation
27:05you're known for, but you don't just do
27:07aviation. You've done car crashes,
27:08you've done medical malpractice, you've
27:10done product liability, you know, just
27:13the whole gamut of cases. You're doing
27:15some RICO whistleblower type stuff. How
27:18do you
27:20learn all these different areas at a
27:22high level to handle these big cases?
27:24>> Well, it's called the bathtub theory of
27:26law, right? You you fill up that bathtub
27:29with all the technical knowledge and
27:31information that you uh need on a given
27:34case. And when that case is over, you
27:35pull the plug and let it drain out. No,
27:38I I'm I mean, I've used that. I mean,
27:39especially in the medical malpractice
27:41area where there was a time when I think
27:43I knew more about nefrology than any of
27:45the experts that I was dealing with.
27:47Right. And but you've the but the short
27:49answer is you need to surround yourself
27:52with the technical experts. Like just
27:55yesterday,
27:56an issue came up in the UPS uh case
28:00where the engine fell off of the MD11.
28:03And it's a an issue about it's
28:05aeronautical engineering and metallurgy
28:08and the lawyers around here trying to
28:09figure out well what do should we do
28:10this or should we do that? It pertains
28:12to whether we keep a defendant in or
28:14not. There's
28:17the defendant wants to get out. They
28:18want to enter into a towing agreement.
28:20They say, "Hey, the NTSB gave us a pass.
28:22You should too." And I said to my people
28:24who are on point, I say, "Well, what
28:27good does it do?" You know, I'm not an a
28:29metallergist. I'm not a an aeronautical
28:32engineer. Neither are any of you. What
28:34are our consultants advising you? What
28:37issues are they raising for you? And
28:39they didn't have, frankly, they had
28:41meetings scheduled, but they had yet to
28:43have those conversations. I said, "Well,
28:44I don't think you can decide this
28:46without that kind of input." And the
28:48point being, I think a good trial lawyer
28:50can try any kind of case. Okay? Any kind
28:53of case. You just got to learn the
28:56underlying uh uh technical issue that's,
28:59you know, before the jury and is the
29:01controversy in the case. I mean, uh and
29:04and so I mean, heck, this morning uh
29:07before our conversation today, I was
29:09giving one of my friends who's a local
29:11business owner ad advice with his
29:14commercial lawyers on a dissolution of a
29:16of a big restaurant chain here in
29:18Chicago. What the hell's that got to do
29:20with PI law or airplane crashes? Right.
29:23nothing. But in the course of the
29:25conversation, I was talking about
29:27mediation. I'm talking about judges. I'm
29:30talking about what a jury trial is going
29:31to look like here. I'm talking about the
29:32preparation that they need to engage in.
29:34All those things that we've been talking
29:35about this morning, they're at play.
29:38Same thing is true for what you're
29:39doing. I mean, you you have a trucking
29:41case, but I'll bet you if I sent you a
29:42medical malpractice case, you could get
29:44boned up on it. You would know the local
29:46jury. You would know the the judiciary.
29:49You know, all those things. You But you
29:50got to spend the time, Michael.
29:52>> Yeah. I actually enjoyed I I I tried
29:54some medical practice cases before 2003
29:57when they uh changed the law in Texas to
30:00try to make it unprofitable and I got
30:02the hint and uh
30:03>> well I think I probably make more money
30:05not doing them just because the you know
30:07the you spend so much money screening
30:08them u
30:09>> well%
30:11we've got uh we're probably well if not
30:14the largest certainly one of the largest
30:16top five medical malpractice firms in
30:19Chicago and in Illinois and and we've
30:22have a very elaborate uh screening
30:24process. Uh but it's it's a good book of
30:28business here, though. I mean, we don't
30:29have the the they were unsuccessful in
30:32trying to uh cut out people's rights
30:35here in Illinois. So, we don't have
30:36caps. Uh we have free judgment
30:39interests, which is a big deal in terms
30:41of forcing them to be realistic. And but
30:43but we do spend I mean, we probably
30:46reject 19 out of 20 inquiries. uh and
30:49and of the one that we one out of 20
30:51that we take, we probably ultimately
30:52reject some of those as well. And and uh
30:55which because you'd be crazy as a law
30:57firm to find, you know, this this whole
31:00idea of frivolous lawsuits is is is
31:03ridiculous because what lawyer in his
31:05right mind is going to spend a fortune
31:08prosecuting a case that's frivolous,
31:09right? [clears throat] In their view, if
31:11you lose a case, then therefore it was
31:13frivolous. Well, that's not the law and
31:15that's not the reality of life. But uh
31:18uh we have an elaborate we've got three
31:21full-time uh intake uh nursing people
31:24who were in risk management uh at
31:26hospitals before. We've got one
31:28full-time doctor, lawyer um and then so
31:31that's how we do the initial screening
31:33and then once we decide to go deeper
31:35that's when we bring in the outside
31:36consultants and uh that we regularly you
31:39know go to whether it's for general
31:41surgery or you know OBGYn or
31:44orthopedics.
31:46Now, I'm I'm going to ask you another
31:48selfish question because I'm I I spent
31:51the first 25 years of my practice really
31:53working on trying to be a better lawyer,
31:55and I'm still trying to be a better
31:56lawyer. But then the last six years,
31:59I've really been working on trying to
32:01build a better law firm, which means not
32:03just developing myself, but learning to
32:05develop the other people around me and
32:07and and giving them the the tools and
32:11space to reach their potential. I mean
32:13you can't do the work for them but you
32:14can create an environment where they
32:16can. What have been you know what have
32:18you learned about developing lawyers
32:19because obviously you couldn't do
32:20everything you you're doing unless you
32:22had a team of good competent people.
32:24>> Well you've got to empower them to make
32:26decisions and you got to accept that
32:28that empowerment is going to come back
32:30and you're going to get some bad
32:31decisions that you wouldn't have made
32:33and and you can't go ballistics about
32:35that. Right. Um, so you you have to
32:38learn how to delegate and and uh you ha
32:41you have to let go a bit. I mean, I'm in
32:44the aviation space in particular, I'm
32:47trying to develop uh some of the young
32:49lawyers uh uh to take over that that
32:53practice uh because ultimately, you
32:56know, I know that I'm not going to be
32:58able to do it forever. Um, and so it's
33:01just showing people that you have
33:03confidence in them, but also pushing
33:06them. Uh, you know, I I told you about
33:08that conversation a moment ago about the
33:10metal energy aeronautical engineering.
33:12Well, this is what some of those people
33:13and I I one of the things I said in that
33:16meeting, you know, I'm actually kind of
33:17disappointed that I'm having to remind
33:19you of this, that this is how you have
33:21to go do this, right? So you you can you
33:24can delegate uh but you got to keep your
33:28eye on the ball and and so you know
33:31don't take it for granted that they know
33:32what you're doing and you know it
33:35doesn't bother me if they say well I
33:36already know that and okay well good I'm
33:38glad you do. Thank you very much for
33:39telling me. Okay I'm glad but because
33:42what if you didn't all right and um you
33:44just got to work with them and and have
33:46confidence that you've made good
33:47decisions about the people who are
33:48around you. The hardest part for me is
33:51if you have a lawyer that you've brought
33:52on who is not doing the job and you've
33:55come to believe that they cannot do the
33:57job. You know, I'm not good at letting
33:59people go. And that's a problem.
34:02>> Yeah. I've had to learn the hard way
34:04that you just you're just you're not
34:06doing any good for them, are you? when
34:07they're in when they're not the right
34:09>> for anyone, especially and especially
34:11when you you're in a fiduciary position
34:13and they're handling, you know, client
34:15matters where maybe they're making
34:16decisions that are bad decisions and you
34:19don't know about them. That's that's
34:20part of the problem when you get a knock
34:21on your door saying, "Oh, by the way, I
34:23got a problem here." And and it was
34:25something that could have been avoided
34:27had they even come and asked questions.
34:29I mean, we have regular lawyer meetings
34:32and we share our experiences. So, for an
34:36example, tomorrow, if you were to come
34:37to my office tomorrow morning, 7:30
34:39a.m., uh, I have a uh, every Wednesday
34:42morning meeting, 7:30. It it lasts uh,
34:45it's supposed to have a hard uh, last
34:48only one hour, but it has an absolute
34:50hard stop uh, at 9:00 and and uh, we
34:53talk about our our weeks and we talk
34:55about our learning experiences. And I
34:57just yesterday, one of the guys said,
34:58"Hey, I want to I want to present
35:00something tomorrow about, you know,
35:02something I've learned." I mean, that's
35:03the environment that you try to foster.
35:06>> Absolutely.
35:07>> Yeah.
35:08>> And as far as identifying lawyers, I
35:10mean,
35:12in my limited experience, I mean, I've
35:14not done it as long as you have, and I
35:15don't have your level success yet, but
35:16I'm I'm on my way hopefully. Uh, I found
35:20that there's it's one thing to identify
35:22talent, and talent seems a little easier
35:24to identify because you can see what
35:26they've done before. Do they have trial
35:28results? What were their grades like?
35:29you know, whatever markers there may be
35:32for talent, but then there's a a drive.
35:35And I found that there are some people
35:36that they kind of have a a number in
35:38their head and they can make that
35:39number. They kind of like once they've
35:41hit that number, they don't have a lot
35:42of drive like, well, we'll save we'll
35:44save those cases for next year so I can
35:45make that number again next year. And
35:46then others, I've got a partner, I mean,
35:48she's already brought in eight figures
35:50in fees this year, and she's hungry for
35:51more. She's I, you know, she no, I don't
35:53want to take any more time off. I'm I'm
35:54on a roll. I want to keep going. Uh, and
35:56you know, how do you how do you identify
35:58the hunger there that's mixed with the
36:01talent?
36:01>> I don't know. When you figure that one
36:02out, ask me. I mean, it I I think you I
36:05think you start to see it, right? I
36:07think you But but I don't know that you
36:09can identify that upfront.
36:11>> Okay.
36:12>> I I think you can see it as it's
36:14evolving and and like you are with that
36:16young lady. And the same, it's funny you
36:18mentioned because I've got one lady,
36:20same thing. Okay. She's hard charging.
36:22She's willing to work. She's tireless.
36:24She's she's uh you know here I I have
36:27two daughters, one of whom's a a partner
36:29in the firm. Uh uh she's a a lawyer of
36:33course, but she's also a masters in
36:35behavioral psychology and she's teaches
36:38wellness in the workplace. So uh she's
36:40the one that everybody goes cries to
36:42after I yell at them, right? And uh but
36:46that that said, I think this is a tough
36:47business for women because of the uh
36:50obligations that they choose to, you
36:53know, deal with in terms of uh being
36:55wives, being homemakers, being mothers,
36:58especially being mothers. And it's it's
37:00hard. And so we we really try to
37:03accommodate that. And uh you know, co
37:05taught co taught me that I could
37:08actually be pretty effective working
37:09remotely at times. I mean, you still
37:12have to be in the office. I think it
37:13it's important for the guy whose name is
37:16on the door to walk around and let
37:17people make sure that they you know
37:18there's leadership in the house but but
37:21uh I get a lot done working remotely and
37:23and so long as you you know you have
37:26people who are being upfront and getting
37:28their work done and they're working
37:29remotely and you're making a good
37:30environment here. Look, I have employees
37:32who have worked for me. I started my own
37:34practice. I became a lawyer in ' 76. I
37:36started my law firm in ' 84 and I have
37:38employees who've been with me since '
37:4084. Okay. Wow. It's it's not just about
37:43money. It's about how you treat people.
37:45It's about recognizing that they're
37:46human beings and that they have lives
37:48and that you care about them. If you
37:49treat people like you want to be
37:50treated, it usually works out pretty
37:52well for you.
37:54>> Now, one thing that's I think almost
37:57unique with you, you've got 30 lawyers,
38:00but you don't have any billboards, you
38:02don't have any TV commercials, you're
38:04not a big advertiser. How do you get
38:06work
38:07>> for uh well, do good deeds, word of
38:09mouth. Um we we we probably one thing
38:12you let out we probably try more cases
38:15in Chicago than any other plaintiff firm
38:18here. Okay. And that's not an accident.
38:21I am big on pushing trials and and and
38:26people notice that. Uh and uh we are you
38:31know you don't here people recognize
38:34quality and they recognize talent and
38:37and you know if you are out there in the
38:40community lecturing you're out there in
38:42the community trying cases you're out
38:44there in the community doing good things
38:46people will notice and and it's a
38:48network that you develop. It's all it's
38:51all about the networking as I uh and I
38:54encourage my lawyers to be very active
38:55in the bar associations. I encourage my
38:58lawyers to be very active in their own
38:59communities. Uh every single lawyer in
39:02my office, if you were to walk up to
39:04them right now and say, "Could you give
39:05me your business card?" They will they
39:07will have one in their pocket. There are
39:08a lot of lawyers that say, "Oh, no.
39:09Here, let me tap your phone and here's
39:11my contact." No, no, no, no, no, no.
39:13Here's my business card and it's got my
39:16cell phone on it and you can reach me
39:1724/7. I mean, that's the message that we
39:20send and it works.
39:22>> A lot of our listeners are what I
39:24consider younger lawyers, lawyers under
39:2540, up and coming.
39:28If they want to build a practice and
39:29they don't want to do the billboard and
39:31TV thing, what would you what advice
39:33would you give them to start building
39:34their own practice?
39:35>> It's really about it's networking. It's
39:37um it's it's letting people know that
39:40you're I mean there number of elements
39:42to this, but number one is networking in
39:44terms of the business. Number two is a
39:47commitment a personal commitment to
39:50quality and and and self-improvement. I
39:53mean I I regularly read newly reported
39:55cases. is I regularly read, you know,
39:58relevant law review articles. Um, you
40:00know, in the aviation space, this
40:02conflict of law issues is a big deal and
40:05it's hard to understand and I regularly,
40:07you know, receive uh memos about that
40:10that uh uh so I'm still a student of the
40:14law, I suppose, is the answer to to
40:16that. Uh I I when I'm getting ready for
40:19trial, it's uh it's preparation. I I
40:22don't I I mean I really do what I said
40:25in terms of studying the rules of
40:26evidence again just to refresh my memory
40:28about them. I I get out in the community
40:31and and I'm engaged and uh uh you know
40:35I'm active politically. Uh you know that
40:39that's a good news bad news thing. I
40:40mean there isn't a day that goes by in
40:42my life where I'm not asked for a
40:44donation of some kind. Uh but uh I'm
40:48active politically. I'm active
40:49charitably.
40:51uh and uh you you just got to spread the
40:53word and about who you are and and be
40:56proud of what you do. Uh and you know,
40:59one thing that you you mentioned, some
41:01lawyers have become so specialized. I
41:03mean, we do have a very eclectic
41:04practice. I think, you know, if you
41:06called me up and said, "Hey, I've got
41:08this great, you know, uh case that that
41:12uh happened to, you know, me and and my
41:14family and uh and we take the case, do a
41:17good job." And then you call me and say,
41:18"My next door neighbor has this problem
41:20and and needs some help. Could you at
41:22least talk to them?" And it wouldn't do
41:23any any good for me to say, "Well, I
41:25don't really handle that kind of stuff."
41:26>> Right?
41:27>> I mean, you know, so we at least bring
41:29the people in, we we find out what the
41:31situation is and then we maybe triage
41:33them to somebody else, but we're doing a
41:36good service. You know, just the other
41:38day, this past weekend, I got a I got a
41:40call from a lo a local fellow here, lay
41:43person who's a member of a club I belong
41:45to. his good buddy's brother in LA was
41:48involved in a terrible crash, a truck
41:51versus pedestrian. Uh they needed a
41:54lawyer in LA. I sent him to uh uh our
41:58dear my dear friend Brian Panish and his
42:00partner Raul. Uh they're taking care of
42:03him, but in the meantime, I sent a text
42:05to him just yesterday saying, "Is
42:07everything okay?" That you know, and he
42:09he responded, "I really appreciate your
42:11followup." He'll tell people about that,
42:13right? He'll tell his buddy from here
42:15who who now the buddy will say, "God, my
42:17buddy Clifford took good care of my
42:19friend." Okay. As opposed to, "Oh, my
42:21buddy Clifford said that was a
42:23California case. He couldn't do anything
42:24about it to help me." You got to do
42:27those things.
42:28>> One other piece of, you know, I think
42:29one of the things you said is trying
42:30cases brings good things. I mean, you
42:33get one, it's fun, but two, you also get
42:37uh more notoriety. You get more cases
42:39when you go out and try cases.
42:40>> That's right. Uh, and you know, I've
42:43heard all these people complain, "Oh,
42:44you can't get to Tron anymore." That's
42:45not been my experience.
42:47>> That's not mine either.
42:48>> So, what advice would you give to upand
42:50cominging lawyers that want to get
42:52better at trying cases?
42:54>> Well, well, it's
42:58so when I was a firstyear lawyer, so
43:01this goes back. So, I became a lawyer in
43:03October of 1976. So, in the spring of
43:0777,
43:08I was over in the daily center, which
43:10I'm actually looking at over the top of
43:12my computer here because our office is
43:14right across the street from the
43:15courthouse. Uh, and I bumped into a
43:19lawyer, uh, who I knew, uh, plaintiff's
43:22lawyer, older guy, and and he said, "Uh,
43:25what are you doing?" I said, "Well, I'm
43:27I just settled a case. I'm going back to
43:29the office." He said, "Well, you don't
43:30look very happy about it." And he said,
43:32"Tell me about the case." And I told him
43:33about the case. And he said, "Well,
43:35that's a pretty good result." And I
43:36said, "Well, yeah, but I wanted to try
43:38the case." He and he says, "Well, don't
43:40you know, dummy, the the way you get
43:42more trials is you got to raise your
43:44demands." So, I went back to my office
43:46and I literally doubled every demand
43:48that I had. I got a lot of trials. And
43:51my my point is that you should go, let's
43:56go back to this focus group stuff and
43:58this jury research, okay? Uh that I told
44:01you that anecdote about the two kids in
44:03the front seat versus the back seat, but
44:05the real reason for that was at that
44:08time I was trying to get comfortable
44:11with asking for $64 million. I couldn't
44:16get above $64 million
44:19without cracking a smile because I
44:21didn't believe it. Okay. And the point
44:25being that nowadays you you you these
44:29lawyers are a lot of times you're afraid
44:31to go to trial. Everybody's about
44:33mediation which is a euphemism for
44:35taking less money. Okay. If you but but
44:38how are you going to know if your uh
44:41demand is correct or not unless you do
44:44some extrinsic research to test what you
44:47think the value of the case is. And
44:49that's one of the reasons why we do so
44:50much about it. I mean, you mentioned a
44:52moment ago the cost of doing the the
44:55research. Okay. Well, the the the Hersan
44:58model is only $3 to $5,000, I think. Um,
45:01same thing for, you know, some of the
45:03stuff that John Campbell and Kristen
45:04Novi are doing. It's the real mock
45:07trials where you're, you know, hiring a
45:09facility and you've got uh uh actors
45:13coming in maybe and you've got jury, you
45:15know, you're bringing in 25 30 people to
45:18sit down. I mean, that feeding them all.
45:20I mean that here I think the last mark
45:22trial I did in the Boeing case cost me
45:24$65,000.
45:26Okay. And and so but you don't have to
45:28be that expensive but but find a way to
45:32test what you think the value of the
45:33case is and and push those numbers. And
45:36there's a client control issue. Okay.
45:39When you go to a client and say there's
45:41a million dollar offer and this poor
45:43carpenter has never seen a million
45:44dollars in his entire life and yet the
45:46case is worth 10. Okay. You've got to
45:49get get your client to have some
45:51confidence in you and you got to sell
45:52them on and you know sticking it out. We
45:56practice may leave you with this. We
45:57practice 27 and 10. I invented this at
46:00the beginning of my career. Here's what
46:02I mean by 27 and 10. You and I agree
46:04that the value of this case is worth 10
46:06units. Whatever a unit is, okay? Million
46:09dollars, whatever. Now, they come in,
46:11they offer us two. Well, what are you
46:13going to do? You We want 10. They're
46:15offering us two. We got a trial on our
46:16hands. What do you do when they offer
46:18you a seven? Are you so right about the
46:2010 that you turn down the seven to fight
46:22about the three? If you're not in that
46:25situation, that case ought to be going
46:27to verdict. And that's what you got to
46:28sell your client on.
46:31>> Okay.
46:31>> Yeah. And I I have found that, you know,
46:32when you're turning down big, you know,
46:34you can't get into the the multiple
46:37eight figures if you don't turn down
46:38seven figures and single eight figures,
46:40but having that big data or that other
46:42research and showing your client like,
46:44look, we're probably going to get this.
46:46Hold on. Let's
46:47>> Yeah. Last last year I turned up $200
46:49million on a case and that caught my
46:50attention.
46:51>> I still turned it down and we still did
46:53better.
46:54>> That's awesome. And so kind of to wrap
46:56it up, I've got one last question.
46:58>> Yeah.
46:59>> My impression is you don't need the
47:01money anymore. Uh you've done pretty
47:03well in your career. What drives you to
47:05keep working as hard as you work?
47:08>> I don't know. I I got to tell you, I
47:11wake up in the morning Well, number one,
47:12I'm I'm a bad golfer. Uh I have uh I'm
47:16an annuity to orthopedic surgeons. I
47:19have two artificial knees and two
47:20artificial shoulders. Uh in the last 5
47:23years I have posted fewer rounds of golf
47:26per year than golf clubs I belong to. Uh
47:28which is a really bad statistic. So if I
47:31retired, quote unquote retired and
47:33didn't show up, what would I be doing
47:34today? And and but I I I'm excited about
47:39my work. It keeps my mind fresh. I mean,
47:42I see a lot of older guys and I think
47:45their minds go to mush when they quit
47:47being as stimulated as we are by the
47:50law. Uh, you know, I mean, I think
47:53that's really important.
47:56So, as I age, uh, as I get older, I'm
47:59trying to balance physicality and making
48:01sure I try to stay healthy with work.
48:04Okay. Uh it's only when I'm on trial
48:06that that you're 247 kind of thing and
48:09are full weekends and and so uh you know
48:12I'm I'm just excited about I'm I've been
48:15lucky to be able to invol be involved in
48:18you know things that are stimulating and
48:19they're intellectually instimulating to
48:21me and that's important and then but I'm
48:24still you know grandpa at 2:30 this
48:25afternoon I'm going to pick my
48:277-year-old grandson up from school and
48:29we have a 4:00 chess lesson. That's the
48:32exact life I want to have when uh in 20
48:36years, you know, when I'm 76. I don't
48:38know how old you are, but I mean, it's
48:39uh you know, my people ask, "What do you
48:42want to retire?" I'm like, "I don't
48:43>> I'm 75 and I'm not I'm not going
48:45anywhere."
48:46>> Yeah. You know, I'm only 56. I've got
48:48I've still got a kid at home, but I'
48:49i've got a ways to go, but I mean, I
48:50don't ever want to quit. This is fun.
48:52You know, I think I think you love it.
48:53And I think that's probably why you if
48:55it brings you joy,
48:57>> and I think that helps me be good at it.
48:59>> Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.
49:01>> Well, thank you so much. I I got another
49:03call in a minute. I wish I could talk to
49:05you forever. Uh
49:06>> well, then be in touch next time you're
49:08in Chicago.
49:09>> I will. Great. I really appreciate it.
49:10And thank you so much. And thank you
49:11everyone for joining us today on Trial
49:13Learn Nation.

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