YT YouTube2Text

YouTube2Text → Transcripts → 2026 08 November Congregational Meeting

2026 08 November Congregational Meeting — Transcript

by Abbotsford Presbyterian Church · 10,414 words · 1,799 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

Open in transcriber Summarize with AI Download SRT/VTT

Full transcript

0:00We thank you again that we are more than
0:02conquerors because of the Lord Jesus.
0:06over all things. We pray for your wisdom
0:10as and insight. We pray for unity as we
0:13discuss and we pray for a good manner in
0:17which we discuss and share our thoughts.
0:19But go before us as we start this
0:22conversation about the prospect of the
0:24possibility next door. So we pray and
0:27commit this meeting in your hand. In
0:29Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
0:33Um this can I just say when time for
0:35questions,
0:37we will
0:39I want I want the handheld mic to be
0:42used. Just to give you a heads up as
0:44well. I've got actually got Samuel to
0:46actually record the congregational
0:48meeting so that for those who can't make
0:50it, they'll be able to find here some of
0:54the things that
0:55especially what Justin will share as
0:57well as what everyone else will. Okay,
0:59Justin over to you.
1:01>> Good morning everyone and thanks for
1:02your time and for turning up. 449 Great
1:05North Road is the property next door.
1:06Came onto the market in late August with
1:09an asking price of 2.055 million. That's
1:12the same price the current owner paid
1:14for it during COVID in May 2021.
1:17The property is a shop top comprising
1:19two residential units and Daryl's told
1:20us about what that looks like.
1:22Abbotsford also owns unit 644 St. Albans
1:25Street which is a four-bedroom unit and
1:27again, Daryl's already told us what that
1:29looks like so I won't go through that.
1:31Other than to say since it's purchase,
1:33all assistant ministers have chosen to
1:35take a rental allowance and live
1:37elsewhere rather than at St. Albans.
1:40It's currently leased and provides net
1:41rental income of around $31,000.
1:45Committee and session are considering
1:46selling
1:47St. Albans and purchasing next door.
1:50In selling St. Albans and purchasing
1:52next door, this would replace one income
1:54generating asset with another.
1:56But crucially,
1:58provide strategic real optionality for
2:01the church site in the future by
2:03acquiring adjoining real estate.
2:06In order for the church to sell and
2:07acquire next door, there is a funding
2:09gap of approximately 1.1 million.
2:13That gap can be closed through
2:15Presbyterian trustee loans, pledging
2:18from the church, or combination of both.
2:21Furthermore, it is the view of committee
2:23and session
2:24that purchasing next door should not
2:27impact our church operating budget.
2:29St. Albans currently contributes 31,000
2:32to the church budget, so purchasing next
2:34door must also contribute at least
2:3631,000 to the operating budget.
2:39Our current funded operating ministries
2:41should be no worse off.
2:45In order for the funded ministries of
2:46the church to be no worse off and to
2:48achieve property contributions
2:50of 31,000, APC would need to raise
2:53around 500,000 in pledges and borrow
2:57around 600,000 from the trustees to
2:59close the 1.1 million funding gap.
3:02Lastly, and for broader context, the
3:05current paid ministry full-time
3:06equivalent staff is 2.5 FTE.
3:10Session would like to increase to this
3:13to three FTE in 14 months time
3:17in calendar year 2028.
3:19This would require approximately an
3:21extra 50,000 in annual giving to the
3:24operating budget.
3:26But today is not about the 2028
3:27operating budget.
3:29Uh today is not a vote.
3:31The purpose of today is to present to
3:33the congregation the opportunity to
3:34consider purchasing next door, provide a
3:36high-level overview of some key facts,
3:39talk through the numbers, outline the
3:40risks and the process from here.
3:43Why purchase next door?
3:45Purchasing next door, at its least,
3:47represents a replacement of one
3:49investment asset for another,
3:51not without its risks,
3:53but also not without its rewards.
3:57At its best, it represents the
3:58opportunity to one day in the future use
4:01the property to build, for example, a
4:03mixed-use ministry center, expanding
4:05church halls, youth group facilities,
4:08Bible study rooms, church offices,
4:10whilst retaining commercial and or
4:12residential rents to support other
4:14operating ministries, and whilst
4:15expanding church frontage
4:18and welcoming onto the high street
4:20and directly opposite the school on the
4:22crossing.
4:23This would all be subject to FEOs and
4:25DAs. The point, however, right now is
4:28not to be certain as to what it might
4:29look like in the future, but to give
4:31ourselves the flexibility and the
4:33opportunity and optionality to do
4:35something in the future in order to
4:37support the growth of God's kingdom.
4:41So, the numbers.
4:43In order to purchase next door, the
4:44total funding required will be just shy
4:46of approximately two and a half million
4:48dollars.
4:49How do we get there?
4:502.055 million vendor asking price,
4:5495,000 in stamp duty, 33,000 estimated
4:57selling costs to sell St Albans, 22,000
5:00estimated six-month bridge loan costs
5:03uh net of rent uh to bridge loan St
5:06Albans.
5:07Some legal fees, contingency,
5:10and a 275,000 funded cash reserve,
5:13including 250,000
5:15repairs and maintenance budget, which
5:17I'll talk to in a moment.
5:19Deduct the estimated sale proceeds of St
5:21Albans of 1.365 million,
5:24and that leaves the 1.1 million funding
5:26gap.
5:28So, where does the illustrative 500,000
5:30base case
5:32pledge number come from?
5:34Well, in order to size the pledge, we're
5:37actually targeting the size of the debt,
5:39such that the cash flow contributions of
5:41next door after debt repayment are no
5:44less than 31,000 dollars to keep the
5:46operating ministries funded.
5:49The net rent of next door after
5:52operating costs and allowing for vacancy
5:54is approximately 83,000 dollars.
5:58That's on a debt-free basis.
6:00The Presbyterian trustees will advance a
6:02loan to APC on repayment terms which
6:05would see the debt cleared in 20 years.
6:08On a debt amount of 625,000,
6:10that equates to approximately 50,000 per
6:12annum in interest and debt repayment. On
6:15that basis, the cash contribution to the
6:17operating budget would be $33,000,
6:19slightly higher than St. Albans $31,000.
6:23Please note that loan terms are not yet
6:24agreed and remain to be negotiated and
6:26these numbers are therefore
6:27illustrative.
6:28Uh we are currently working with the
6:30Presbyterians on those loan terms.
6:34What happens if we raise less or if we
6:36raise more?
6:38If for example, we raised 400,000 in a
6:41pledge, in that scenario B,
6:44the debt requirement would be 725,000
6:47and the cash contribution after debt
6:48repayment would be 24,000. That's less
6:51than the 31,000 that St. Albans
6:53contributes.
6:54And it would not be met.
6:56However, in this situation, we would
6:58still look to put an opportunistic offer
6:59to the seller at $100,000 less or 1.955
7:03million.
7:04As this would lower the debt requirement
7:06back to 625 and meet the 31,000
7:08benchmark.
7:09If the church in fact raised the full
7:11funding gap of 1.1 million up front in
7:14upfront pledges, no loan would be
7:16required at all.
7:18In this instance, Next Door would
7:19contribute 83,000 to the operating
7:21budget as there would be no debt
7:22repayment. This would represent an
7:25increase of over $50,000 to our
7:27operating budget. This amount,
7:28incidentally, is approximately the same
7:30amount required to increase paid staff
7:32FTE from 2 and 1/2 to 3. That's just
7:35incidental.
7:37So, what is up with the 250,000
7:39maintenance and repair budget reserve?
7:42The committee organized a visual
7:43building inspection and timber
7:44inspection report prepared by Global
7:46Building Inspections in September.
7:48The report found evidence of serious
7:50safety hazards, major defects, and
7:53evidence of minor defects.
7:54Serious safety hazards include, for
7:56example, window safety locks not fitted,
7:58damaged power outlets, defective
8:00balustrades, exposed electrical wires.
8:03This would all need to be fixed on or
8:05before acquiring the property.
8:08Major defects included remedial
8:10restraint fixings to the wall, cracking
8:12to the brickwork, inadequate masonry
8:14piers under the subfloor, as well as
8:16previous subfloor structural remedial
8:18works, cracking to subfloor masonry
8:20wall, and subfloor soil cracking.
8:23There were 18 minor defects, which I
8:25won't run through.
8:28We have completed a limited desktop
8:31analysis on an itemized basis to cost
8:33these works. I stress this analysis is
8:36and it's desktop at this point.
8:39We've come to an estimated 163,000
8:42repair and investigation cost.
8:44Allowed for a further 20% contingency,
8:46which is 28,000, and a further 14,000 in
8:48potential lost rent during works.
8:51That's an estimate of 206,000.
8:54We've provided 250,000, however, in the
8:57budget and the model.
8:59Subject Subject to obtaining more
9:01detailed reports on the major defects
9:03from relevant qualified engineers
9:06uh on both a cost estimate of works
9:08basis and a timing estimate of works
9:11basis. Some of those repairs, if they
9:13need to go ahead, may not need to go
9:14ahead for several years.
9:17Other considerations.
9:19The proposal includes professional
9:20property management to take on the
9:22administrative load.
9:24A subcommittee of suitably qualified
9:26volunteers to report to COM to implement
9:28initial repairs and maintenance program,
9:31and to limit the leadership workload and
9:33ministry distraction.
9:35Stewardship.
9:37The yield on St Alban's currently is
9:38around 2.3%,
9:40whereas the real the yield on next door
9:43is around 3.8 to 4% on a debt-free
9:46basis.
9:47Dollar for dollar
9:49dollar for dollar next door is a much
9:51higher income generating asset, in part
9:53because of its commercial rents, but
9:55also because of what appears to be a
9:57good entry price
9:59being the same price paid by the vendor
10:01in 2021.
10:04So, what's the process from here?
10:06We are asking members to take their
10:07time,
10:08read the preliminary IM,
10:10and prayerfully consider pledging.
10:13To have conditional pledges returned in
10:152 and 1/2 weeks' time by Tuesday, the
10:1724th of November, in order to have a
10:19congregational vote in 3 weeks' time, on
10:22the 29th of November.
10:25Subject to approval from the
10:26congregation, we will ask all those who
10:28have conditionally pledged to confirm
10:30their pledges,
10:32noting that the information that has
10:33come out in the preliminary IM this week
10:35may change over the course of the next 3
10:37weeks, subject to certain numbers
10:40firming up.
10:44The other consideration is the
10:46Presbyterian Trustees have their last
10:47meeting this year on Monday, the 7th of
10:49Dec- December.
10:51This is a required approval, which we're
10:53currently progressing in parallel.
10:55Should the proposal proceed, we would
10:57look to submit an offer
11:00around the 8th of December, and exchange
11:02prior to Christmas.
11:03We would then settle in 2027.
11:06We would be seeking a long-dated
11:08settlement if possible, and the basis
11:09for that is to raise more time uh to get
11:12the pledges in,
11:14and to bridge or not have to bridge and
11:16sell St. Albans.
11:18It's a compressed time frame. We
11:20understand that this is a compressed
11:21time frame, due in part to the time of
11:23year, noting we have Christmas at
11:24Abbotsford the following Sunday, the 6th
11:26of December, and putting the vote after
11:28that into the 13th of December would see
11:29some, if not many in the congregation,
11:31away on holidays.
11:33There's a commercial imperative.
11:35The property is on the open market. We
11:37do not have exclusivity.
11:40Delaying the process past Christmas
11:42would likely put us into late January,
11:43early February,
11:45uh just to get approvals, and risk
11:47missing the opportunity.
11:50What will the recommended approval
11:52conditions look like from session and
11:54the committee?
11:56First year contributions exceeding St.
11:58Albans. That's around 31,000 after
12:01property expenses and debt repayments.
12:04No impact to existing funded ministries.
12:07Sufficient pledges are funded.
12:11Satisfactory due diligence and required
12:14property trust approvals, qualified
12:16repairs and maintenance subcommittee
12:18reporting to the com established. And
12:212/3
12:22and this is very important, a 2/3
12:24congregational majority in favor
12:26um for for the motion. That's
12:29communicant and adherent members voting
12:31and that means if you're on the church
12:32directory or phone book.
12:36How does pledging work?
12:41A pledge is a prayerfully considered
12:43commitment before God to contribute
12:44towards APC's proposed purchase of next
12:46door over and above regular giving.
12:51We are asking members to pledge
12:52thoughtfully and in good faith with a
12:55firm intention and reasonable
12:56expectation of fulfilling their
12:58commitment.
12:59Pledging is not legally enforceable.
13:02However, the church will rely on the
13:03amount and the timing of these
13:05commitments when assessing affordability
13:08and preparing its recommendation to the
13:09congregation.
13:11It is additional, it is in addition to
13:14regular giving.
13:15Property contributions are over and
13:17above normal church giving so ongoing
13:19ministries can be supported.
13:22Pledging is voluntary.
13:26The pledge is conditional on the
13:28purchase of the property.
13:30If we are not successful in purchasing
13:31the property, we won't be asking for
13:34your money.
13:35Pledging is confidential. Our treasurer
13:38Frikkie Theron is the nominated
13:39confidential recipient. No member of
13:42staff, elders or anyone in the church
13:44other than our treasurer will see the
13:46figures.
13:49We are asking that the form be completed
13:51with pledges across four contribution
13:53periods. Firstly, prior to settlement
13:55with an estimated settlement at its
13:57earliest of late January.
13:59Then year one, year two and year three.
14:02You may also indicate if you are in a
14:04position to provide a stretch or
14:06additional amount up front or in year
14:08one.
14:10We fully recognize that interest rates
14:12have risen five times in the last 12
14:14months.
14:15That inflation is very high and cost of
14:17living is up.
14:18If you are not in a position to pledge,
14:20then please do not and please do not
14:22feel any compulsion or pressure to.
14:25Otherwise, for those that are in a
14:26healthy financial position, this is an
14:28opportunity to be generous and
14:31contribute towards God's growing kingdom
14:33both financially but also strategically.
14:38In summary, we have the opportunity to
14:40acquire next door and replace one
14:42investment asset with another.
14:44However, this asset provides strategic
14:46optionality for real on the ground
14:48ministries in the future.
14:51The funding gap is 1.1 million and in
14:53order to bridge that, we'll likely need
14:54to raise at least 500,000 in pledges
14:57with the remainder to be funded via a
14:58loan from Presbyterian Trustees to be
15:01repaid over time, 20 years.
15:03The property is not without its risks,
15:05including capital expenditure spend. We
15:08are working to better understand costs
15:09and timing and have provided for a
15:11275,000 cash reserve which includes 250
15:14for upfront and early repairs and
15:16maintenance.
15:17Lastly, this presents an opportunity to
15:19give
15:20and give generously
15:21to the existing and future kingdom work
15:23of the Lord.
15:25I just want to finish with Psalm 127,
15:29verse 1.
15:31Unless the Lord builds the house,
15:34the builders labor in vain.
15:38And uh what I mean by that is uh if you
15:41do want to give, um please give uh
15:44prayerfully, considerately, uh seeking
15:47the Lord's blessing upon this. This is
15:49not about giving the most money.
15:51Uh don't let pride get into your heart,
15:54um but put it all before God.
15:57Um
15:58Amen to that. We will now have um Q&A.
16:07>> I thank you, Justin. Okay, um time for
16:10questions and then there'll be time for
16:11people to to speak and have comments.
16:14But then we'll have I'm going to pause
16:15Of course, you have any questions
16:17regarding uh anything in the uh
16:20in Justin's presentation or in the
16:22information memorandum. Or in the
16:24information memorandum, there was also
16:26the financials. If you had any questions
16:28about the current financials, our
16:30treasurer Ricky is here to
16:32answer some of those. But again, if
16:34they're not burning questions, we do
16:35have the budget congregation meeting to
16:37talk about the APC current financial
16:40position. But um just on that,
16:43any questions?
16:45I didn't have any questions. Derek, you
16:47have a question?
16:48Okay.
16:52>> Have you considered the
16:54Have you considered the many reasons why
16:56you shouldn't be buying that property
16:57from an asset management point of view?
17:00>> Um do you hear the question Derek
17:03Justin regarding
17:05Uh
17:06>> Did Did we consider the many reasons why
17:08we shouldn't purchase it from an asset
17:09management point of view?
17:12Absolutely.
17:13So, why shouldn't we purchase this
17:15property?
17:16Number one, could be a lemon.
17:19That's a very real risk. Uh and the
17:21building and inspection report shows
17:23those risks.
17:25And uh we are currently doing more work
17:28to firm up
17:30what
17:31the repairs need to be, the costs, and
17:33the timing.
17:35Uh
17:36Number two,
17:37um
17:38is
17:40uh
17:40distraction.
17:42Distraction. So, let's let's assume it's
17:44not a lemon.
17:45But we still got to implement these
17:47repairs, budgets, co- um
17:50that's going to take time.
17:52Uh people need to do the work, whether
17:54that be um
17:56getting structural engineers in, um
17:58liaising with tenants,
18:00uh
18:01getting the building remediated. That
18:03takes time and and someone's got to do
18:04that.
18:05Um
18:07To that end,
18:08we want to have a suitably qualified
18:11subcommittee to report to
18:13com
18:14uh to take that workload on.
18:16Um that's probably going to look like
18:18people who know a little bit about
18:19property,
18:21A little bit more certainly than I do.
18:23Um and have time and capacity.
18:27Thirdly, is just asset management
18:30itself.
18:31We have included in the budget a 4% of
18:33rent cost for property management. Um
18:36we've spoken to a number of property
18:37managers in the area.
18:40When it comes to just sort of basic
18:42everyday property management, we've got
18:43two residential units and we've got the
18:44shop top. Shop top is probably the one
18:47that might take more asset management
18:50time
18:51at a renewal of lease stage. Um
18:54The lease has 6 months to run with an
18:56option for a further 2 years. We think
18:59the tenant will exercise the option that
19:01takes her to 2029 on the basis that she
19:04spent a fair bit of money on a fit out.
19:06Uh the plumbing and the floor.
19:09Um and you can see a shop right there,
19:11Hair by Eva.
19:13Um
19:14In terms of
19:16releasing risk, uh Joe Rizzo who's who's
19:19selling, he's the selling agent so note
19:21that he's conflicted, but he reckons
19:23it'll take 3 weeks to release that
19:25property,
19:26uh the shop top, noting that it's it's
19:28it's a great
19:29uh it's it's on the high street, it's
19:31right there on the crossing. You get a
19:33lot of passing traffic as you know
19:35through Great North Road, it's the only
19:36sort of road into Abbotsford. He reckons
19:383 weeks. The notice period just on the
19:40option
19:42is 4 to 6 months before expiry.
19:44And obviously
19:45there's a similar notice period if
19:48if non-renewing at the end of the lease.
19:51Obviously with the residential tenants,
19:54residential tenancies are highly highly
19:56in demand in Sydney. Domain estimates a
19:581.2% vacancy rate at the moment. The
20:01rents are at market, we've got that
20:02verified by two agents as to what the
20:04market rents are. Um there are risks,
20:07absolutely.
20:08Done our homework we think. Um
20:11Just on that budget and repairs piece as
20:13well, $250,000.
20:15It may be less than that, it may be more
20:17than that. We're trying to get to the
20:18bottom of that number over the next two
20:20or three weeks and we'll present that
20:21update at the congressional meeting
20:24in 2 weeks time.
20:26>> Thanks Justin. Did anyone else have any
20:28questions at this point in time too? Ah,
20:31Helene.
20:34>> I just wanted to ask about that you
20:35maybe you mentioned it but the St.
20:37Albans property that you'd sell, how
20:39much needs to be budgeted to get that
20:42ready for selling?
20:44>> Yep.
20:45So,
20:46the estimated sales price
20:48given to us by McGrath agents was
20:51anywhere between 1.3 and 1.42.
20:53We've put in the model the midpoint
20:551.365.
20:57So, obviously
20:59if we achieve more than that, we'll have
21:01a bit more cash. If we achieve less than
21:03that, we'll have a bit less.
21:05Um
21:06and hence there's some buffers in those
21:08cash reserves.
21:09Um how much will it take us to get ready
21:12to sell it? Um
21:14I have put in the model the agent fees.
21:18Uh
21:19selling fees of 20,000 marketing fees of
21:22about 10,000.
21:24Um
21:25I'm not aware and and maybe someone on
21:27the committee can correct me that if if
21:29there needs to be any repairs and
21:30maintenance to get it onto market.
21:36>> Now, I might get you to speak on behalf
21:37of the committee with regarding that
21:39last bit of the question.
21:41>> Sure. Um so,
21:43St. Albans is not an easy property to
21:46rent or to sell.
21:47Yeah, um
21:49Daryl mentioned it's four bedrooms but
21:51what he didn't mention is one bathroom.
21:54So,
21:55which is the reason why the rental
21:56return has been lower than, you know,
22:00average four bedroom units in this area.
22:02Um the unit is tired but I think that
22:06the price of the plan to sell it for 1.3
22:09to 1.4 is based on the unit at its
22:12current condition. The plan at this
22:14moment is not to do any major repair
22:17repair or renovation before we put it on
22:19the market. It would just be as Daryl
22:22Justin has mentioned like the standard
22:24marketing stuff, dress it up and that
22:25kind of stuff.
22:27>> Can
22:28>> Can I just add to that? The budget
22:30budget's for a 6-month bridge period. Um
22:33i.e. if we purchase this property and we
22:35sell that property
22:37um Presbyterian Trustees will basically
22:39fund 90% of that property. Um
22:42and the budget has assumed a 6-month
22:44period in terms of interest costs for
22:47that um and a 6-month period in terms of
22:50additional rental income.
22:53>> Okay, Rowan has a question.
22:59>> Thanks, Daryl. And um thanks, Justin.
23:01This is uh certainly an impressive piece
23:03of work um you put together. Um I've
23:07actually got two questions. One sort of
23:09um on that same property is
23:11the Presumably it's tenanted at the
23:14moment.
23:15>> It's in Auburn.
23:15>> Yeah.
23:16Or is it vacant?
23:18It's tenanted, yeah. So, like what sort
23:20of time period we would need to have the
23:24place vacated before a marketing
23:26campaign or
23:27or whether the assumption is we would
23:28just try and sell it
23:31tenanted.
23:32>> That's a good question. Um
23:34Jill, you
23:43>> He'd have to be given 3 months notice
23:45legally.
23:51>> You've got another question, Rowan.
23:55>> Uh yes, so that was just a context of
23:57sort of how long it might take. Um
24:00Do Do you mention I can't remember the
24:02name of the organization, but someone
24:03who might provide funding?
24:06Is there the rate that they would lend
24:08money to the church
24:10sort of different to a normal commercial
24:12rate?
24:13>> Okay, so
24:14um I'll just take a step back to answer
24:16that question. All the property is owned
24:18by the Presbyterian New South Wales
24:19Trustees.
24:20Jordan is Jordan, who comes to our
24:22church, is the CFO. Yeah.
24:24Um we actually don't get uh legally we
24:28don't get a commercial loan. Legally,
24:30what happens is the trustees purchase
24:32the property.
24:34They own this property. They'll own that
24:36property. Um how we would think of it is
24:39when they purchase the property, they
24:41loan us money and we repay it back.
24:44Um
24:45we we can't go to any other financiers,
24:48as far as I'm aware. Um
24:50now now when when they lend us the
24:53money, cuz remember they actually own
24:54the property and they've bought it, so
24:56they're not actually lending us the
24:57money, but when they lend us the money,
24:59um we become the beneficiaries in terms
25:01of entitlements to use the property and
25:03responsibilities to to maintain it, etc.
25:06They'll they'll take on some of those
25:07responsibilities. For example, they'll
25:08pay for the insurance across their their
25:11insurance portfolio.
25:13Um
25:14uh
25:15the terms the terms so they they will
25:18always require repayment to nil over
25:20time. So, unlike a commercial loan, you
25:23might be able to buy that on interest
25:24only
25:25for perpetuity, uh we must repay.
25:28Uh that's a that's a conservative uh
25:31prudent form of lending that most
25:34churches require. Um
25:37uh my conversations with Jordan is that
25:38we must repay uh over 20 years.
25:41Um
25:4320 years to nil.
25:44Um and the interest rates uh I've used
25:47commercial interest rates. I'm still
25:49trying to find out what the actual
25:50interest rates are. So, I've used in my
25:52model 4.85%, which is the cash rate plus
25:54a 2% margin on top.
25:57Um I believe we can get it cheaper than
25:59that. Certainly, uh what he has told us
26:02is
26:03money borrowed less than 250,000
26:06is ex- extremely cheap. Daryl, do you
26:08remember what the rate was?
26:09>> I can't remember, but it was really
26:11really cheap.
26:12>> I I think it was about 1%.
26:13>> Yeah, something like that.
26:15>> Uh sorry, what was that?
26:16>> 1.5
26:17>> 1 1.1.5
26:18>> 1.5% for a 250,000 dollar loan.
26:20>> Yeah. Yeah. So, the model assumes 6.85
26:24through 20 years to nil.
26:28In practice, in practice, what churches
26:31typically do when they take out a loan
26:33is they look to prepay that loan
26:36well ahead of time. So, if it's a
26:3820-year loan,
26:40um what churches and and what lenders,
26:41what banks, what I've seen in banks
26:43often see is that loan would be repaid
26:45within, say, 7 years.
26:47Um obviously, for a pledging campaign,
26:49we're not looking at 20 years. We're not
26:50asking people for that. That's
26:52impossible. But, we are asking for
26:53people to consider what they might be
26:55able to give over and above regular
26:56giving over the next 4 years. Um but,
26:59what happens often in practice,
27:01within 7 years, you'll see people they
27:04might put in a chunk of money. Uh
27:06they've received a chunk of money. They
27:07want to pay down some debt, uh some
27:09church debt. And so, typically, it would
27:11be repaid
27:12uh a lot quicker than the required 20
27:14years to nil.
27:16Okay.
27:17>> Thanks, Justin. Jason has a question.
27:20Thanks, Justin. And uh reiterate uh
27:24a lot of work and thought has been put
27:25into this. Uh you mentioned one of the
27:27risks was uh that the property might uh
27:30be a distraction.
27:32Um
27:33uh
27:33I'm not in the weeds with the current
27:36finances of the church.
27:38Um but, on a short-to-medium-term basis,
27:41say, the next 12 to 18 months,
27:43obviously, we're having the discussion
27:44now
27:45um about the property in isolation.
27:48But, uh
27:49what
27:52where does this fall in terms of
27:53priorities for the church
27:56from a financial perspective in the next
27:5712 to 18 months? Uh I know you mentioned
28:00uh the FTEs moving from 2.5 to 3. Are
28:04there any other considerations
28:06like we need to consider in terms of
28:08how big this distraction might be uh
28:11when it comes to the church's priorities
28:14or mission and growing the church at its
28:16footprint and beyond?
28:19>> Do you want to go first, Justin, and
28:20I'll and then I'll might answer that,
28:22too.
28:23>> Yeah, sure. So, it's a really good
28:24question. Um
28:25and it's it's important It's very
28:28important and our reiterate session um
28:31have have that
28:32uh from an operating budget perspective,
28:34they do want to grow the FTE from 2 and
28:361/2 to 3.
28:38Um that's a decision to be made in
28:40around November next year uh when the
28:43budget for 2028 uh comes out. Um but
28:48what we have is an illustrative budget,
28:50which is based on this year's budget
28:51plus inflation, and the gap's $50,000.
28:54So, session have said that.
28:56Um one of the things that we've tried to
28:58make sure that we do is
29:01is to look at this transaction somewhat
29:04in isolation and to say
29:06um St. Albans
29:08or next door.
29:10Um St. Albans contributes 31,000. Can we
29:13achieve a purchase next door that
29:15contributes the same?
29:16In many ways, that sort of negates
29:19um having to look at this additional
29:2250,000 because either way
29:25in 12 months' time, we've got at least
29:2731,000 from the investment asset.
29:30Now, in some ways it doesn't because if
29:32you're going to pledge uh capital, that
29:34might impact your operating your your
29:37your your ability to just give you on
29:39your weekly, monthly donations.
29:42Some people think about um pools of
29:44capital and and where they where they
29:47give from. So, um
29:49it it might be for some people that
29:51their regular weekly giving comes out of
29:54their regular monthly wages, and it's a
29:56proportion of that. Um and with an
29:59opportunity like this, they might have
30:01um capital somewhere, savings, gifts,
30:04what what it might look like, I'm not
30:05sure.
30:06Um
30:07And for that opportunity uh which is
30:10outside of the regular operating budget
30:12of the church, uh they might say, "Yes,
30:15I'm going to keep keep giving what I
30:16regularly give, but I do I do want to
30:18give $20,000 a year for the next 4 years
30:21as a contribution to that." Um
30:24Some people might be in the position
30:27where they've recently inherited or I
30:29don't know, they've got some parents or
30:30some trust fees or
30:32I don't No one No one in the eldership
30:34knows, and so what we want to do, and no
30:37one in the com knows, we just we want to
30:39put it out there as an opportunity to
30:41consider giving. And we've tried to do
30:44that in a way that protects the
30:45operating budget.
30:47Um flagging
30:49the FTE increase in 14 months time. Um
30:53and and you know, maybe
30:56get get people also in this process
30:58thinking about their own giving and
31:00giving between property and capital
31:02versus operations and you know,
31:04immediate sort of stuff.
31:07>> I might just add this for emphasis.
31:10Going back to the priority part of
31:11Jason's question, uh the elders have
31:14worked out cuz there's a number of
31:15things that we have to prioritize.
31:18Part of our a larger thing is the elders
31:20will be revisiting reviewing our vision
31:23and overall ministry priorities, but one
31:26thing in light of this decision is
31:28where what is the key part, the
31:31immediate step in growing ministries
31:33here, and when we go back to the there's
31:36a time where we'll need to grow ministry
31:38staff or look to if as I said in the
31:40talk, where God will if God continues to
31:42grow us. And so, seeing this property as
31:45part of that means to help us grow
31:48ministry staff in the short term is
31:51something that helps our immediate
31:53priorities, but down the track as I said
31:55there was
31:56other priorities which is not immediate,
31:58medium, and long term. But this property
32:00does both. But we're mindful of the
32:02first step is and we have to work that
32:04decision. Do we want to grow the staff
32:07team down the track? And
32:10that's what the session has said that is
32:11going to be a cemented priority. Hence,
32:13that's why it's been built in the 2028
32:16budget.
32:18Whether we need it or not, we want to
32:19prepare for that scenario. And hopefully
32:22what the building if we if it's still
32:24there available to purchase if we have
32:25the funds to, will be that step to help
32:27us do that.
32:30These are great questions. Are there any
32:32other questions? Yes, Ashish has his
32:34hand up. Thanks, Ashish.
32:37>> Just a clarification question. On the
32:38pledges. It said on the
32:41thing inside over four years. Is that
32:43the 500k over four years
32:46or just up front and then to pay down
32:48debt over time?
32:49>> Great question. So,
32:52from what everyone's heard, I hope
32:53everyone can can picture that there's a
32:55lot of moving parts.
32:57And
32:59for the purposes of simplifying this
33:01presentation and the financial model at
33:04this stage,
33:07I have I've just explained it as 500,000
33:10up front.
33:12But what we've asked for is
33:13pledges over the next four years.
33:17So,
33:19if we can see the pledges over the next
33:21four years provide the necessary cash
33:24flow
33:25to acquire the property
33:27and pay
33:29for an appropriately an appropriate
33:31amount of of repairs and maintenance,
33:34we can obviously then get less up front
33:39and and spread that out over time.
33:41Um,
33:42in actual fact, just just to buy it up
33:44front, just to buy it up front, we don't
33:46need 2.5 million, we need 2.25 2.25.
33:50Um,
33:51now we're a church, we're a conservative
33:55organization and we think it is very
33:57prudent to fund a repairs and
34:00maintenance reserve off the back of
34:02receiving that pest inspection report.
34:04Um,
34:06if if we could fund that up front, that
34:08would be ideal. Um,
34:10if we can if it turns out that those
34:12repairs and maintenance partic- so the
34:14the big ones
34:16the safety hazards aren't aren't
34:17expensive. Get an electrician out, fix
34:19it. Balustrades, there's three broken
34:21balustrades, I've I've seen them. Um,
34:24the the the major the major structural
34:26defects are the ones that we want to
34:28know about.
34:30When you go out to the car park, have a
34:31look at that wall, you'll see the metal
34:32bolts coming through the brick wall.
34:35That's remediation work.
34:37Now that remediation work may be
34:39satisfactory. I'm I'm not an engineer, I
34:41don't know. It may not be satisfactory.
34:43It may be that it's satisfactory for the
34:44next 10 years and that we actually don't
34:46need to raise that additional amount of
34:48money
34:49until over a period of time.
34:52But we are a church and it is prudent to
34:55fund this stuff up front to the extent
34:57we can.
34:58Um we don't want to miss out on the
35:00opportunity. It'd be
35:02Um so so trying to balance out a number
35:04of things there and therefore asking um
35:08Yeah, asking the congregation whether
35:10they can consider this the pledging as
35:12much up front as possible but over over
35:15four years.
35:16Um we'll we'll consider what that looks
35:18like um when we assess the numbers.
35:21Um I'll look at the numbers on an
35:23anonymized basis. Um if there's any kind
35:26of big one-off
35:28contributions that are very substantial,
35:30we really want to understand
35:32um we'll want to talk to the person and
35:34get a view from them how confident they
35:36are in providing that number. Um if it's
35:38a nice big spread,
35:40um we might be able to discount the
35:41numbers particularly out further further
35:43years and and still have confidence.
35:46So there's a there's a bit of bit more
35:47work to do and um ask asking for the
35:50information from the congregation to try
35:51and assess that.
35:53>> Okay, thanks Justin. Any last minute
35:55questions? Uh Rachel before I'll give a
35:58ti- short time for comments uh before we
36:01finish the meeting. Thanks Rachel.
36:03>> Look, thanks Justin. There is a mammoth
36:05amount of work here. I've read through
36:07it during the week uh right through it
36:09and I really appreciated it cuz it
36:10helped me as a non-financial person to
36:12understand where you're coming from. Can
36:14I just double-check something really
36:15quickly? We are eating into our cash
36:17reserves, which is fine. Seems stupid to
36:19me have money sitting in the bank but
36:20that's what this this what this table
36:23says.
36:24>> Okay, that's a really good question. The
36:25answer to that is no.
36:27So so
36:29um in the preliminary IM, we actually
36:31have
36:32we we we have a I'll I'll explain that.
36:35It is
36:36kind of go two ways but in terms of
36:38current cash that the that the church
36:40has,
36:41um
36:43if someone Does anyone have an IM there
36:45that I could just refer to? Yeah.
36:49>> Page 22.
36:50>> No, get it. I was happy to hand one to
36:56>> Okay, so page 37, the cash position of
36:58the church as at August 2026, 202,000
37:01cash on hand.
37:03Um
37:05About 77,000 of that is restricted,
37:07i.e., it's earmarked for specific
37:10um funds.
37:12And unrestricted is one 125,000 dollars.
37:16If we purchase next door,
37:19um the the proposal is we do not touch a
37:22single dollar of this. We open another
37:24bank account. We put in
37:26we put in the money into that bank
37:28account. 250,000 dollars of that cash
37:31represents a funded reserve
37:34um for maintenance and repairs. Another
37:3625,000 just for operating cover, i.e.,
37:39vacancies, um
37:42foregone rent. That's the 275. So So, if
37:45we raise 2 and 1/2 million dollars, we
37:47don't touch this cash. The The this
37:49proposal has a very high bar, and that
37:51high bar is that the ministries in this
37:53church continue to proceed without being
37:56affected by purchasing next door. In
37:58order to achieve that high bar, it's
38:00around a 500,000 dollar pledge.
38:03>> Thank you. And what I've really
38:05appreciated is what you said about I
38:07really appreciated your page about the
38:08pastoral like the pastoral risks and the
38:12So, I thought that was fantastic that
38:13you thought that through. So, I guess my
38:15comment would be um
38:17just
38:18that would be my concern if it took up
38:21Daryl's time. Like, we just did the
38:23building next door, and that took a
38:25stupid amount of time
38:26for Daryl, which is why you set up a
38:28separate committee, I think. I just
38:30think we probably need to think over and
38:32above how much time that takes. Um and I
38:36would if help me I understand if we
38:39bought the building next door
38:40and then in 5 years' time we were
38:43running short on cash,
38:46we we're responsible for the building,
38:48so our third person goes. I think that's
38:50probably my concern in a choice between
38:53pastoral staff member and a building.
38:56I'd be sad if we lost a pastoral staff
38:58member because we're committed to the
39:00building and the bank.
39:01Um
39:02But like you have gone through the
39:04risks, you've thought that through. I
39:06think that's great. I just That would be
39:08my concern. As a church, we've been
39:10talking about like trying to increase
39:12our serving culture.
39:13And if we we became financially
39:16pressured so that people are struggling
39:18to keep giving
39:19and therefore can't serve as much, I'd
39:21be sad.
39:22>> So So one of the open questions I have
39:24out to Presbyterian Trustees, and Darrel
39:27and I trying to set up a meeting this
39:28week or the following week to talk about
39:30the loan terms, is um so those
39:33repayments consist of interest and debt
39:35repayment. And is to see in an in an
39:38instance where um for example,
39:42that property has extended vacancy, um
39:45doesn't have the cash flow to service
39:47the debt, whether we can have a
39:48repayment holiday for that period. Um
39:51These are all things that I'm trying to
39:52work through. Um if it comes to a
39:54reduction in
39:56the
39:57uh operating
39:59it just just the general giving of the
40:00church of the church budget, um
40:04I suppose what I would what I would say
40:05to that is is whether we buy next door
40:07or not, we'll we'll be in that position.
40:10Uh the proposal really is trying to
40:11isolate um the factors so that it can be
40:14assessed.
40:15Um
40:17So it So it can be really just assessed
40:18on that $31,000 number.
40:20Yep.
40:21>> Okay. Thanks. Uh Rowan, you got another
40:23question?
40:26Uh last one for me. Um
40:29I'm just going to flip this around the
40:30other way cuz I'm trying to get my head
40:32around these Presbyterian Trustees. If
40:34we were paying down this and they needed
40:36money back,
40:38is it possible
40:40for them to determine that the property
40:42goes up for sale?
40:46>> Um
40:47So you So you've asked some questions
40:49that I'm not across.
40:50Um
40:52>> Yeah. Um I I can answer that one. Yeah,
40:55yeah. So, flip side can
40:57Rowan's asking can the denomination say,
40:59"Hey, we're short of cash. Can we grab
41:00that grab that property?"
41:02Um
41:03knowing just the denomination here in
41:06New South Wales, uh they are all four
41:08congregations. My
41:10my gut feel as fully informed and I
41:13uh is cuz I used to be a trustee,
41:15uh that would be the very very last
41:17thing they would do. The other thing
41:18just to let us as a church family know,
41:21uh our denomination here in New South
41:23Wales is in a pretty strong financial
41:25position and I don't
41:27I I don't think that scenario would
41:28happen. Having said that, other states
41:31that's not New South Wales, that
41:32actually has happened. But, what I don't
41:35think it will happen here in New South
41:36Wales because of our strong financial
41:37position.
41:38They I think they could buy it, but it'd
41:40be the very very last thing they can do
41:42because they've got other assets as well
41:43they can do that, too.
41:45>> That's a great question. We'll raise
41:47>> Yeah, but we will raise that.
41:49Uh she should go on ask question.
41:52>> What do you mean by Yeah, I don't I
41:53don't envy you with all the accountants
41:54in the room. Um
41:56the the biggest two numbers here are
41:58more the
41:59purchase price and the sale price of St.
42:02Albans.
42:03What like how wedded are we as a church
42:05that we have to pay the asking price cuz
42:06then we got wiggle room on reducing that
42:09price and then in this market how
42:11confident are we of selling St. Albans
42:13at at that price in say 6 months time?
42:16>> Yep. Okay, I'll start with St. Albans.
42:18Um
42:20we've got an appraisal from McGrath's.
42:22Um it
42:24Like it's
42:25I I completely agree with you.
42:27Auction rates have dropped. Um
42:30you know, serviceability is higher, 10%
42:33thresholds by banks. It's hard to get
42:34properties away. Um properties are still
42:37selling and they're selling at a price.
42:38Um we got we got the appraisal at at 1.3
42:42to 1.42
42:44uh with a midpoint of 1.365.
42:46Um I I think it's it's a case of saying
42:50if it's not getting away, we're probably
42:51going to have to lower the price if
42:53we've already purchased next door. So So
42:55that's that's the first thing. I mean,
42:56it is it is a residential unit. There's
42:58still a deep market
43:00notwithstanding it's slowed down.
43:03In terms of next door,
43:05let's just say if if this had come on
43:07the market 2 years ago, I would not have
43:09done this I am. I would not have spent
43:10the amount of time I've done doing it
43:12because the market was very very hot and
43:14property was going. And but as you know,
43:17the church, the Presbyterian church, we
43:18move quite slowly. So
43:21you know, the view would have been it's
43:22going to go. It's going to go. The
43:24opportunity for us is actually that the
43:26market is slow.
43:28That's given us the time to look into
43:30it, to do the due diligence, to do the
43:32research. The background here is the
43:33person that owns it also owns the shop
43:35top two down on the corner.
43:38Both are on the market.
43:40The selling agent is Joe Rizzo.
43:42He knows that it makes sense for us to
43:44buy next door. He's selling He's showing
43:47everyone that's interested in the other
43:48property so he can get two sales away.
43:51That works in our favor. Christmas
43:54and January not great for us. Equally
43:56probably not great for everyone else.
43:59Fundamentally, someone could walk in
44:01there today,
44:02look at it,
44:03they're well funded,
44:05they could buy it.
44:06But what we have seen is it's been on
44:08the market for 3 months and
44:11there's not a lot of inquiry. So So we
44:13want to press ahead.
44:14Should we make a lower offer?
44:16Absolutely.
44:17Absolutely we should.
44:20We've already We've already told the
44:22agent that the price is a bit too hot.
44:24That we've got a massive reserve that we
44:25need to fund for.
44:27No No money's been spent on the property
44:28as far as we can see in the last 6
44:30years.
44:32So So that that's kind of the background
44:34there.
44:34I just want to add one more piece of
44:36background. This is more for interest
44:37sake.
44:38The property in the middle is also for
44:40sale, the residential property for sale.
44:42We've reached out to the trustees and
44:44we've said, "Hey you guys,
44:47have a look at these other two
44:48properties. This is what we're doing. We
44:50need to talk to you about buying next
44:52door. If you've got surplus money and
44:54you're interested in buying strategic
44:56assets, not just investments, these
44:58would also represent strategic assets.
45:00It's something they do for the schools.
45:01It might be something they're interested
45:02in doing for us.
45:04If we can be super opportunistic, we
45:06might be able to get all three and get
45:07all three at a discount. Um
45:09in terms of the local congregation,
45:11we're we're just buying next door. But
45:13again,
45:15the 20-30 year outlook on that could be
45:17extraordinary. And so so we we are
45:19pushing and talking to other people on
45:22on that as well.
45:24>> Thank you, Wilson. I don't think I've
45:26had anything to add to that.
45:28Last minute questions, there may be some
45:30comments that people have to say, but
45:31mindful of the time and be good. But
45:32there'll be time for questions and
45:34comments as we continue the next few
45:36weeks. Hi Jason. We'll make this your
45:38last question.
45:40>> Last question. Uh it's interesting you
45:42you you uh pitched the other two
45:44properties to Presbytery saying it could
45:46be a strategic decision.
45:49What What's different? Uh
45:51isn't the property that we are
45:53considering also a strategic decision?
45:56Could Presbytery also partake in that?
45:58Um and how is
46:00How How does this process work in terms
46:02of what Presbytery sees as a strategic
46:05decision versus our church
46:07decision?
46:09>> Yeah, we
46:10>> I can answer some of that, but did you
46:11want to go first, Jason?
46:12>> Yeah, we're definitely getting well
46:13ahead of ourselves, but what what I
46:15envision What I envision is um
46:17potentially a a joint ministry of of
46:21sorts and and maybe a ministry center,
46:23which in the future, obviously, there's
46:25a portion of it that that is a APC's and
46:29there's a portion of it that is the
46:31Presbyterian churches. Um
46:33and I I don't know what that looks like.
46:35It could It could involve
46:37Yeah, as I said, it could just be a much
46:39bigger ministry center. It could be
46:40shops. It could be a development.
46:42Probably the key thing is when you have
46:44that much square meters, you can do a
46:46much more powerful development.
46:54>> The church is a strategic decision for
46:56our church,
46:57not the Presbytery. Like I'm just trying
46:59to understand
47:01uh
47:01like the land title and how it works
47:03like
47:04>> Yep.
47:04>> between us. Like obviously the
47:06Presbytery, if you saw it as a strategic
47:09asset, it'd just buy it.
47:11If it saw value.
47:13And that would help our church in some
47:16way. I'm trying to understand like
47:19we sit on a church that is owned by
47:22Presbytery.
47:24Uh if we were to buy the adjacent
47:26property,
47:28it would belong to Presbytery.
47:30Uh
47:32but then we're also like funding for it
47:34when Presbytery can also fund it if they
47:36see it's strategic value. I'm just
47:37trying to get my head around that.
47:39>> Yes.
47:41Um let me uh say a couple of things.
47:45Um
47:46yes, while the denomination owns
47:48property, when it comes to this
47:50particular property, it is held in trust
47:53for us to use. And so the full benefits
47:56will be as in
47:58uh
47:59the Presbytery the the denomination
48:00allows us to enjoy and uh benefit from
48:04this property. And if we were to in our
48:08with our own resources buy next door,
48:10again all the benefits will be for this
48:13uh congregation.
48:15Well, just as we talked to the
48:16denomination and they are actually kind
48:18of exploring that. They are trying to
48:20work out what how much cash they can do,
48:22but what they would if they they did
48:24have the cash, if they were to purchase
48:26that, the benefits initially would not
48:28be for us, but for the wider
48:30denomination.
48:32How that process of granting that
48:35uh asset, say say the middle one or the
48:38one on the corner, to us, there is a
48:40process. It's not a very straightforward
48:42process cuz there is is a very black
48:44dark line. What is for the congregation,
48:46what is for the denomination.
48:49We're letting the denomination know cuz
48:50they do see it strategic from their
48:52point of view. So for example, what with
48:54those two properties, if they were to
48:56purchase it, they they purchase it for
48:59uh a development that would actually aid
49:01the denomination, but because it's next
49:03to a Presbyterian church, there'll be
49:05crossover with two ministries that are
49:08sit under the same umbrella, as opposed
49:10to one ministry that sits over the one
49:13umbrella. So, for example,
49:16um
49:16and I've said this to them, and they
49:18were
49:19the cogs were ticking.
49:21If they purchase two properties for aged
49:23care, providing those low help um uh
49:28uh housing for people not high care, low
49:31care uh for aged facility, that's
49:33something that would aid the
49:35denomination from a different ministry,
49:37but because it's next door to a
49:38Presbyterian church, the crossover would
49:41be, oh, that a Presbyterian church like
49:43us could do ministry with aged care
49:46residents. So, notice the two-pronged
49:49approach, but it's not one but it's
49:50under the one umbrella, but not the
49:52overall umbrella, not the little one for
49:54just the church family.
49:57Things will still have to benefit the
49:59denomination in that way, and but that's
50:01why it would be strategic for them, and
50:03they have done that in the past where
50:04they have purchased aged care facilities
50:06that's of no of low risk adjacent or
50:09close to a Presbyterian church, so that
50:12that kind of cross ministry can happen.
50:15Yeah.
50:15>> I just want to add one thing. I'm I'm
50:17glad Daryl explained that, which is
50:18there is potential synergy,
50:21financial synergy by having adjacent
50:23properties, which means that any such
50:26future often the future uh development
50:29that may envision like that is going to
50:32have a greater floor space. By having a
50:34greater floor space, you can provide
50:35more ministries, and that that's purely
50:37just because you're adjacent.
50:39>> Yes.
50:40Okay, Karen, that's your Is that a hand
50:42up?
50:42>> Yes.
50:43>> Yes, there's a hand up. Okay.
50:45Karen Young.
50:49>> I feel like um
50:51very financially savvy people have asked
50:54a lot of questions, and I My question is
50:57what happens in 5 years? Do we
51:01Like I've read this, but does that mean
51:03is the plan it's just paid for in 5
51:05years or is there another process of
51:07pledges and things that happen at that
51:09point?
51:13>> Yeah, it's a good question. Um the
51:1583,000 net rent, effectively 50,000 of
51:18that is earmarked to repay the the loan.
51:22Uh and if if no additional
51:26pledges or prepayments came in above
51:27that 500,000 number,
51:29that loan would be be repaid in about 20
51:32years.
51:34Um
51:36did does that answer your question?
51:38Who's
51:39Yeah.
51:40>> But I mean,
51:40except for
51:41if that
51:42money is then paying for the loan
51:50If that money is then paying for the
51:52loan, does that mean it affects the
51:54ability for us to pay a third minister?
51:56Cuz you said that 50,000 was earmarked
51:59for the potential
52:01payment for a third minister.
52:04>> So So that money's not earmarked. It's
52:06it's incidentally the same number.
52:08Incidentally the same number.
52:10The point there is if we happen to raise
52:111.1 million in pledges between now and
52:14January,
52:16there's there's $50,000 in addition to
52:19the operating budget.
52:20Um
52:21there's decisions that are beyond us and
52:24really these are all decisions that are
52:25well beyond us. Um the opportunity now
52:28is to acquire the property, get the
52:30property, have the real options
52:32available to us, and then in several
52:35years' time come back together and
52:37reconsider
52:38do we take that money and spend it on
52:40additional ministers? Do we take one of
52:43the properties and use it for church
52:45ministry? Um
52:47it's all about optionality, not about
52:50actually saying what we will do at this
52:52point.
52:53>> Okay.
52:55>> I'm going to deem the point of questions
52:57to be over, but again, if you got more
53:00questions, we've got a couple of weeks
53:01where we can keep talking as a church
53:04family and we'll come back together on
53:06the 29th of November. Um I'm going to
53:09just ask for small uh
53:11options for speeches. It just so happens
53:14someone to say a Derek has asked if you
53:16could speak and I'm giving him the
53:18opportunity to speak uh cuz he just
53:20wants to share some comments. Thanks,
53:22Derek.
53:31Um if there's any others while Derek's
53:32making his way up, if there's any other
53:34short speeches or speeches you think
53:36would be helpful at this congregational
53:38meeting, uh please uh signal that, too.
53:41Uh thanks, Derek.
53:45>> I'm going to be the devil's advocate
53:47here because I don't believe the church
53:49should be buying this building.
53:52And um I'm going to give my reasons why
53:55now.
53:58And I've had to write them down, I
53:59apologize, so I'm going to have to read
54:00from here.
54:02The current owner has been trying to
54:04sell this building almost since the
54:06first day he bought it.
54:09His first asking price was a few hundred
54:11thousand dollars more than he paid for
54:14it.
54:16Then he dropped his price to what he
54:18paid for it.
54:20And there's still no takers for it.
54:24Now he's offering it
54:26um to the church and anyone else who
54:28wants to buy it
54:30for the price he paid for it.
54:33Despite the price of real estate
54:35collapsing as we speak.
54:39Why does he appear desperate to offload
54:42it?
54:44I have a Master of Housing Studies from
54:47the University of Sydney and I majored
54:49in asset management.
54:51And I've been buying and selling
54:53properties for over 30 years for major
54:56developers.
55:00When buying properties for investment,
55:02it is a no-no to buy anything that is
55:05painted
55:07unless you are going to pull it down,
55:11why?
55:14Because you do not know what the paint
55:15is covering up.
55:17Also, the painting itself
55:20requires regular and costly maintenance.
55:26In this particular instance, the paint
55:28used on the exterior of this building
55:31is industrial lead paint.
55:35Now, that paint is banned today.
55:38You're not allowed to use it
55:41because it's an environmental hazard
55:44that requires special
55:46and very special treatment.
55:50Should anyone try to patch or repaint
55:53it,
55:54which you will have to do over time,
56:00it is a very expensive process which I
56:02will not go into now.
56:06Also, the inside of the building will be
56:09covered in domestic lead paint
56:12that is also banned today
56:16as that is what was used in the days
56:18that this building was built.
56:21And until not so many years ago,
56:24repainting any side anything inside or
56:27out will have the same expensive
56:30environmental issues.
56:32It's not just getting a painter.
56:34They need masks.
56:36If they have to rub it down, they can't
56:39do it. They've got to water it down.
56:44This particular building, give or take a
56:46few years, will be 100 years old if not
56:50more.
56:52That makes it a speedily deteriorating
56:55asset.
56:57And as far as maintenance costs are
56:59concerned,
57:02it will be a bottomless pit
57:05of exceedingly costly and never-ending
57:08repairs.
57:10Which also which you will need somebody
57:13to professionally manage.
57:17In the era when this building was built,
57:20bricklayers used lime mortar,
57:24which expands and contracts
57:27depending on the weather.
57:30And as such is not waterproof.
57:35It also deteriorates and flakes out.
57:39That is why a lot of older buildings
57:42have severe dampness.
57:45Today, bricklayers use sand and cement,
57:48which is waterproof, which is stable.
57:54That is why I believe
57:56only one of the reasons
57:59why the building was painted in the
58:01first place.
58:05Looking at the building from either
58:06side, you will notice
58:09metal braces.
58:12They are connected to steel poles that
58:15go under the floor,
58:17and they're on every floor of that
58:18building.
58:23They put those steel poles through and
58:26they heat them so they expand.
58:28Then they put the brackets on the end so
58:30they contract and pull in the walls.
58:34They are there to hold the walls
58:37and prevent walls from further bulging
58:40out
58:41and collapsing.
58:44Because sometimes in its life,
58:46this building had major structural
58:49issues
58:50that needed to be expensively addressed.
58:54And I believe will still be a threat to
58:57it today.
59:00Possibly caused by the weakness of the
59:02lime mortar that I previously mentioned.
59:08The exterior paint would not only have
59:09to be used to The exterior paint would
59:12not only have been used to cover cracks
59:14in the brickwork created by the
59:16expanding and cracking lime mortar,
59:20but also would have been used to prevent
59:22the lime mortar from drying and flaking
59:25out.
59:27As its life expectancy is nothing like
59:30today's sand and cements,
59:33100 years is a very long time for lime
59:36mortar.
59:38Also, as I have mentioned,
59:41lime mortar is not waterproof.
59:44So, the exterior paint also keeps out
59:47the penetrating rain and damp,
59:50but only while the paint lasts.
59:53Paint
59:54does deteriorate.
59:57The lime mortar underneath the paint
59:58would also not have stopped
1:00:01deteriorating.
1:00:05Now,
1:00:07that's just the asset management point
1:00:09of view from the
1:00:11from the from the building.
1:00:13Now, also,
1:00:15from an investment point of view,
1:00:18all of you walked past that that shop
1:00:21many, many times,
1:00:23and I've seen you've seen how often it's
1:00:25been vacant.
1:00:27There is no passing trade. It is not an
1:00:30attractive
1:00:32asset for a trader to take a lease on.
1:00:37And the development Looking at the
1:00:39development prospects, I've looked at
1:00:40the development prospects of that,
1:00:43and I did it for many, many years on
1:00:44many, many buildings.
1:00:47There is a two-story limit on that
1:00:50building,
1:00:51and on the building on the corner.
1:00:54All you can build is what is there now.
1:00:59And I mentioned earlier, if you were to
1:01:00pull that down,
1:01:02it would be an environmental hazard. It
1:01:04would cost you a lot of money because
1:01:06you would need to take precautions
1:01:08because of the lead paint.
1:01:15You know, I believe that the church
1:01:17cannot afford to buy this property. If
1:01:18you do,
1:01:20it will be a continuing
1:01:22and very expensive drag to your back.
1:01:26It will soak up whatever money you have
1:01:27in maintenance and possibly more.
1:01:32And also,
1:01:34you will possibly never be able to sell
1:01:36it because anyone who knows what they're
1:01:38doing
1:01:40will request an environmental report and
1:01:42a structural report. And I've just told
1:01:45you why those two reports would be
1:01:47damning.
1:01:49You would never be able to sell it.
1:01:52I'll end there.
1:01:54Any questions on that? Sorry. Any
1:01:57questions?
1:01:58>> I'll take if there's any questions to
1:02:00what Derek said.
1:02:02If not, thank you, Derek, cuz you've
1:02:04given us things to think about and be
1:02:06things for us to explore further.
1:02:10Okay.
1:02:11Can I check if there were any other
1:02:13comments, speeches?
1:02:15Uh before Justin and you might have any
1:02:17closing remarks. I've got some closing
1:02:18remarks and then I'll pray.
1:02:22Does anyone else have anything else to
1:02:23say?
1:02:24Uh Feki, you want to say something?
1:02:28Oh, okay. Feki's got a question.
1:02:31>> So, today we are only talking We're only
1:02:33talking about buying that property or
1:02:35not buying that property. We're not
1:02:37talking about other cash flow.
1:02:42>> That's right. Only today is this
1:02:44discussing. There's no There's no vote.
1:02:46There's no motion today. It's just
1:02:48information gathering. We're not talking
1:02:50about any other cash flow matters. It's
1:02:52just about the proposal of the building.
1:02:56Um if there's no other things, I'm going
1:02:58to allow you, Justin, to close and then
1:02:59I'm going to and then I'll actually add
1:03:01some last remarks before I pray.
1:03:03>> Yep. Derek, I certainly appreciate
1:03:05everything that you've said. Um
1:03:08I think one of the strengths of the
1:03:09Presbyterian Church is the ability to
1:03:12get up and hear different viewpoints.
1:03:14And they're certainly viewpoints that I
1:03:16was not aware of.
1:03:18And
1:03:19we need we need to
1:03:21get the environmental report. We need to
1:03:23get the structural report. I think
1:03:25everything you've said
1:03:27I agree with. We do not want to buy a
1:03:29lemon. Absolutely not. And so um
1:03:34we'll we'll we'll do that and and we
1:03:35absolutely we value everything you've
1:03:38said and your experience and your
1:03:40expertise in this area. So thank you for
1:03:41getting up and saying that. So um no one
1:03:44wants to push push down a path to
1:03:46acquire property
1:03:47that turns out to be a rod for our own
1:03:49back. Yeah.
1:03:51>> Thanks, Justin.
1:03:53Just want to say again, thank you,
1:03:55Justin, for your hard work in just
1:03:57helping us think through
1:03:59this matter. As you said, Justin, I
1:04:01actually think it's very interesting
1:04:03that God has given us the time. And
1:04:05again, as Justin said, someone could
1:04:07come over tomorrow and buy that and God
1:04:10has made that clear.
1:04:12We are on a journey to actually for us
1:04:13to continue to assess. Again, I want to
1:04:15say thank you, Dirk. There are some
1:04:16extra things that we need to take into
1:04:18account. I think at the very least if we
1:04:20have to factor that in, that means the
1:04:23asking price of the owner at the very
1:04:25least cannot be the asking price given
1:04:28what you just said, given there's more
1:04:29homework for us to do.
1:04:31But before I do anything, it's actually
1:04:32again want to remind you
1:04:34that God's hands are really are really
1:04:36really big. And we need to continue to
1:04:39rest, trust him, pray, and continue to
1:04:42rely on him. We need wisdom and we've
1:04:45got a process before us. And so on that
1:04:48note, I'm going to pray in light of that
1:04:50and and then I'll let us go for lunch.
1:04:53But how about I pray now?
1:04:56Heavenly Father, we thank you for our
1:04:58church family and the fact that we can
1:05:00have this discussion and in means in
1:05:03which we can have this discus this
1:05:05discussion. We thank you for
1:05:08how you include us in your plans. And
1:05:10again, we want to pray for your wisdom,
1:05:13your insight, and your help as we
1:05:15deliberate this to see if this is your
1:05:18will and exactly the logistics and the
1:05:20details of what
1:05:22if there is going to be offered there
1:05:24isn't about how we can be involved in
1:05:26that. So, we pray that you'll be at work
1:05:29in each one of us as we think through
1:05:32this matter. We pray ultimately that
1:05:34you'll use this discussion, use all the
1:05:37our conversations that at the end of the
1:05:39day that you'll be glorified and that
1:05:41your kingdom will continue to keep
1:05:43growing so that more and more people can
1:05:45know and trust in the Lord Jesus. We
1:05:48pray in the might in his mighty name all
1:05:50these things. Amen.
1:05:54Everyone, can I say thank you again for
1:05:55being here today and for being part of
1:05:57this conversation. And let's continue to
1:05:59have conversations over these next few
1:06:02weeks. Our thanks again everyone for
1:06:04being here.

About this transcript

This page contains the full transcript of 2026 08 November Congregational Meeting by Abbotsford Presbyterian Church, generated from the public captions YouTube serves with the video. The transcript has 10,414 words across 1,799 segments, with the original timestamps preserved so you can click any line to jump to that moment in the embedded player.

What you can do with it

Use the transcript to take notes, quote the speaker, build a study guide, generate a summary with ChatGPT or Claude via the YouTube Summary tool, or export it as a timed subtitle file with YouTube to SRT. You can also re-open it in the transcriber to choose a caption track available on the video.

Free YouTube transcript tool

YouTube2Text is a free YouTube transcript generator — no signup, no daily limit. Paste any YouTube link and get the full transcript instantly, with timestamps, click-to-jump, caption language selection, AI prompts for ChatGPT, Claude, and Gemini, and exports to TXT, SRT, VTT, or Markdown.