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201: Jodi Arias (Pt. 2) & Clarence Elkins — Transcript

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0:00one semester of law school one semester
0:03of Criminal Justice two experts I'm
0:07Kristen kuso I'm Brandy Egan let's go to
0:10court on this episode I'll be talking
0:12about an eyewitness and I'll be talking
0:15about the trial of jod Aras here we go
0:19here we go hey you're not even looking
0:22and I'm shaking my tit see you shaking
0:25them how could you not I did I'm so
0:27excited for the dramatic conclusion
0:30yeah there was not enough ninja talk in
0:33our last episode and I'm ready for there
0:34to be a lot more ninjas okay all the
0:39ninjas should we talk about that this
0:41isn't let's go to court after dark well
0:44but it's not okay it is technically
0:47after dark but it's not for like the fun
0:48reasons no it's cuz there's a snowstorm
0:51headed this way we're trying to record
0:52ahead of it everyone storms are
0:56Brewing they're saying anywhere from 6
0:58to 10 in 6 to 14 in oh well that sounds
1:03[Laughter]
1:06stupid well anyway we're just trying to
1:09be prepared like little girl scouts you
1:11know that's right we're like yeah we're
1:13bluebirds what are the bluebirds I think
1:16that was like isn't that brownies that's
1:17the thought bluebirds are like the adult
1:19like that's when you've like maxed out
1:22that's the Girl Scout maxi pad so that's
1:24like Eagle Scouts and you got bluebirds
1:27I think flying the CP I could have just
1:30made that whole thing
1:31up well mhm anyway you want to hear
1:35about Jody we got to like this thing's
1:37going to be there's a lot of material to
1:40cover here so I think we better snap to
1:42it oh no you know what we got to talk
1:44about first oh okay are you ready no you
1:48are just like no oh you want to talk
1:50about our patreon yeah you're like a
1:51little I'm super excited to like I can
1:54get into this hold up wait a minute
1:57ain't number Tutti frutty Jo our patreon
2:00if you got that booty oh that was also
2:03join if you don't have the booty it's
2:04fine I don't have booty all booty sizes
2:06allowed even if you if your ass was
2:09chopped off in some kind of
2:11horrible tractor accident we'd love to
2:15have you at the $5 level on patreon you
2:17get bonus episodes every month why
2:19wouldn't you want more of us yeah you're
2:22thinking to yourself um you can pay more
2:25that's right at the $7 level you get
2:28inducted on this podcast and you get
2:31monthly Zoom calls and a sticker and our
2:35autographs and at the $10 level you get
2:38all that plus add free episodes and you
2:42get them a day early what more do you
2:45[ __ ]
2:46want join our patreon okay or you know
2:49if you're not feeling it that's cool too
2:51[Laughter]
2:54no all right tell us about oh am I
2:56allowed to tell my case now oh oh yes
3:00you are okay major shout out same
3:03sources in general as the as the part
3:06one but super duper special shout out to
3:10David lore for The Huffington Post he
3:13did like a super indepth dayby day trial
3:17coverage which was quite helpful super
3:21helpful so shout out to him shout out to
3:24snapped just because I love them to God
3:27yeah family are you going to do like a
3:30Rocky and Bullwinkle recap of on last
3:33week's episode when we left off last
3:37week hell yeah jod Aras had just been
3:40charged with the murder of Travis
3:42Alexander and she was super innocent as
3:44I no Travis Jody's ex-boyfriend was
3:47found brutally murdered in the bathroom
3:49of his home he'd been stabbed at least
3:5127 times his throat was slit from ear to
3:54ear and he'd been shot in the
3:57head he'd then been shoved in the shower
3:59stall in his bathroom I will say you
4:01seem too excited I know I to like trying
4:05to like calm it down a little bit I
4:09apologize all right weirdo just slow
4:11down then he'd been shoved into the
4:13shower stall in his bathroom and left
4:16there for several days until concerned
4:18friends came looking for him and made
4:21the grizzly Discovery at the scene
4:24detectives had located several pieces of
4:26evidence including long dark hairs a
4:28bloody handprint
4:30and a camera with freshly deleted
4:32pictures that were extremely graphic in
4:35nature sex pck that's right immediately
4:39those close to Travis had given
4:41investigators jod aras's name as suspect
4:44number one and after comparing the DNA
4:47that was left at the scene with the
4:49samples that jod Aras voluntarily gave
4:52them it was a match Jody's hair blood
4:56and naked pictures were found at the
4:59murder
5:01seen despite the mountain of evidence
5:04against her jod claimed that she hadn't
5:06seen Travis in several months even when
5:09lead detective eston Flores confronted
5:12her with naked pictures of herself in
5:15Travis's bed on the day he was murdered
5:19she stuck to her story I mean it did
5:22look like her does look like
5:27me but finally after
5:30some interrogation room karaoke and a
5:33couple of
5:34handstands jod was ready to tell the
5:37truth she's saying that
5:40dildo yeah I'm sure DA's never heard
5:43that one before
5:45Christian hey dildo I love your music
5:49you know a guy has yelled that at her oh
5:54constantly no I'm the first comedic
5:57genius to think of it I get a button in
5:59my whole I don't even know where I am
6:01yeah dildo really threw you off I was
6:03thrown off by a
6:06dildo you ever seen that hilarious video
6:09of where someone at a high school gym
6:12has stuck a suction cup J giant dildo
6:16above the door don't look at me like
6:18you're bored with me
6:20already I showed you that
6:23video well thank you my friend you're
6:27welcome finally Jo was ready to tell the
6:31truth she told detective Flores that she
6:35had been present when Travis was
6:38murdered but that she wasn't the one who
6:41had killed him he had been attacked by
6:44two masked Intruders a man and a woman
6:49and she'd run away and never looked
6:52back and this was the story jod would
6:55stick to for quite some time in
6:58September of 20 8 after entering her not
7:01guilty plea Jody gave a jailhouse
7:04interview to Inside
7:07Edition this was kind of the Inside
7:09Edition yes Inside Edition now be I'm
7:13going to go into this interview but
7:15before we do my sincerest apologies to
7:18Inside Edition because I watched this
7:21clip many times I read a whole story
7:24about this
7:26interview I can find nowhere that the
7:29inter interviewer's name is mentioned so
7:31he's a very nice gentleman dark hair
7:33wore a nice suit I don't have a [ __ ]
7:36clue what his name is and I apologize Mr
7:39Inside Edition that man
7:42was Mario
7:44Lopez if it was AC Slater I'd [ __ ]
7:47know
7:49it so she gives this interview with
7:53Inside Edition and this was kind of the
7:55first time that this story entered the
7:58mainstream media
8:00in the clip the interviewer asks her
8:02straight up did you kill Travis
8:06Alexander and jod responds I absolutely
8:10did not kill Travis
8:13Alexander I had nothing to do with his
8:17murder I did not harm him in any way H
8:21mhm did she look sincere she sure did
8:25wow that's spooky mhm jod then shared
8:30the story that to this point she'd only
8:32shared with detectives she told Inside
8:36Edition I witness Travis being attacked
8:40by two other
8:42individuals when asked who she
8:45responded I don't know who they were I
8:48couldn't pick them out of a police
8:50lineup the interviewer then asked her
8:54what happened and she
8:55said they came into his home and
8:58attacked us both
9:01she explained that the two masked
9:03Intruders had attacked Travis that day
9:07and that she'd fled but was too scared
9:10to call the
9:12police she
9:15said I'm not proud that I just left my
9:18friend there to be slaughtered at the
9:21hands of two other people I'm not proud
9:25of that at
9:27all but the interview you were pushed
9:30back he
9:32said you understand that you look guilty
9:37here
9:39mhm but jod was ready she
9:43replied I understand that the evidence
9:46against me is
9:51compelling compelling compelling it's
9:55compelling it tells the whole damn story
9:58the whole damn story
10:00yes from there the interview
10:03continued Insight Edition what really
10:07happened in
10:09there
10:11Jodie in a nutshell two individuals took
10:15Travis's life two
10:18Monsters Inside
10:21addition you did not shoot
10:24Travis
10:26Jody no I've never even shot a real
10:30gun have you shot a
10:32fake that's a weird clarification okay
10:36Inside
10:37Edition you did not stab him 27
10:42times Jodie I could I would never that's
10:50heinous Inside
10:53Edition or slit his throat from ear to
10:56ear who Jody
11:00I can't imagine slitting anyone's
11:04throat no matter how she was pressed jod
11:08had her story and she was sticking to
11:13it she told the
11:16interviewer no jury is going to convict
11:21me and when he asked why not she
11:26said because I'm innocent
11:30and you can mark my words on
11:32that no jury will convict
11:36me wow that's really bold oh it sure
11:39[ __ ] is and then she went on to
11:42say I know I am
11:46innocent God knows I am
11:50innocent Travis knows I am
11:56innocent oh that's [ __ ] up yeah it's
11:58super [ __ ] [ __ ]
12:02up around this same time Jody gave
12:06several interviews with local media and
12:08eventually she gave one to 48 Hours um
12:12each time the story evolved a little bit
12:15there were just a few more details here
12:17and here here and here here and here and
12:23there it was June of 2009 when jod sat
12:27down with 48 hours and by now
12:29her Ninja Story had really grown legs
12:33hold on you told me last time that they
12:36didn't become ninjas until the 48 Hours
12:38interview it turns out that jod never
12:42calls them ninjas it's the media that
12:44labels them ninjas she only refers to
12:48them as masked Intruders dressed in all
12:52black and the media is the one who's
12:54like she's telling a crazy story about
12:56ninjas which
12:59well I
13:02mean how dare you take quack like a
13:06duck what's that saying if it looks like
13:10a duck and it quacks like a duck it's a
13:12duck that's
13:15right so she kind of expanded on her
13:20story a bit on that episode of 48 hours
13:23or that interview with 48 hours and she
13:26you know admitted that she was present
13:28when Travis was murdered but she said
13:31you know stuck to that story about how
13:33it had occurred during a home
13:35invasion and this is how this is how she
13:39laid it out in that interview she said
13:41she and Travis were having fun playing
13:44with his new camera he was in the shower
13:46taking she was taking pictures and then
13:50things took a sudden
13:52turn she said I heard a really loud pop
13:56and the next thing I remember I was
13:58laying next to the bathtub and Travis
14:01was screaming at that point I was just
14:04sort of trying to come around and kind
14:06of orientate
14:12myself as to what was going
14:14on and I looked up and I just I saw two
14:18other individuals in the bathroom and
14:21they were both coming toward us were
14:24they masked they were okay mhm um they
14:29were masked they were dressed in all
14:31black it was clear that there was a man
14:33and a woman and one had a knife and one
14:35had a
14:36gun she said at one point the man
14:40pointed the gun at her but she was
14:45spared it was a
14:47miracle she said in this 48 Hours
14:51interview he pulled the trigger and
14:55nothing happened with the gun and so I
14:57just I just grabbed my purse which was
15:00on the floor at that point and I ran
15:02down the stairs and out of there and I
15:05left Travis there I pushed past the man
15:08and his gun and I just didn't look back
15:11wait I thought last time the story was
15:13that they intentionally spared her M mhm
15:16that was the initial story yes that's
15:18the story she initially told
15:19investigators so now it's a bad TV movie
15:22yeah they tried to kill her but spared
15:27was standing with their
15:30knife poking themselves in the butt or
15:32something I don't know busy at that
15:34moment that's right that's right that's
15:36lucky so she just kept on driving and
15:40she was just too scared to call the
15:42police sure she said it was I was
15:47terrified and I was scared for my life
15:49and I think there was this naive belief
15:52that I could pretend like it didn't
15:55really happen
15:59you
15:59know well yeah I mean when I make stuff
16:02up in my head too I'm often like you
16:04know what that didn't
16:07happen obviously as Jody did more of
16:10these interviews public interest in the
16:12case began to grow but it wasn't
16:14actually until the actual
16:18trial that what seemed like the entire
16:21country would become enamored by this
16:23case it had
16:26everything hot people mhm sex oh yeah
16:31religion in that thing where a woman
16:34brutally murders her ex-boyfriend and
16:35then says that ninjas did
16:38it we call that
16:43the oh my God but as I've said before
16:47the wheels of Justice turn slowly and
16:50this was a death penalty case so
16:53whatever the opposite of double time is
16:55that's what this case was moving in
16:59and of course there were motions
17:02including one where Jody's public
17:03defender asked to be removed from the
17:05case really more on that later mhm but
17:09that's all pretty boring so I'm going to
17:11look myself in the mirror right now that
17:13doesn't sound boring I'm really excited
17:15about it oh I'll get to that part but
17:16the tions are all pretty boring all
17:18right all right I'll look myself in the
17:19mirror and say let's go to court and
17:23we're going to fast forward this thing
17:25just a couple of quick notes of interest
17:27on the pre-trial motions along the way
17:30in August of
17:322011 jod Aras told the judge that she
17:36wanted to represent herself oh my God
17:39yes and Jody's request was granted but
17:43her public defenders were required to
17:45stay on as an advisory counsil oh my God
17:48can you imagine can't I can't as it
17:51turns out though her time of
17:55self-representation would be limited
17:58because just about a week later trouble
18:00arose during a pre-trial hearing did it
18:03turn out that it kind of sucks to not
18:05have a law
18:06degree so it was August 26th 2011 and
18:10jod had submitted a motion to get some
18:13letters um admitted as evidence she
18:17claimed that Travis had sent them to her
18:19prior to his death and in the letters
18:23Travis Alexander admitted to being a
18:27pedophile oh my my God come
18:31onh so they did some investigating of
18:35these letters and it turns out um that
18:38they were proven to be
18:40forgeries Jody's cell was searched and
18:44they found note cards and a pen hidden
18:47inside a shampoo bottle where she'd been
18:50practicing Travis's
18:52handwriting oh my God
18:55mhm yeah so that motion was
19:00denied and after that ruling Jody told
19:04the judge that she thought she might be
19:07in over her head yeah I think
19:10so and then the judge reinstated the
19:13public
19:15defenders that's amazing you're going to
19:18murder a man and then frame him as a
19:22pedophile yep
19:25mhm so this motion did give a glimpse of
19:29Jody's new defense strategy and now her
19:32third account of Travis's
19:38death um so this was detailed in these
19:40court documents that became public after
19:42this hearing and it seemed that that was
19:46the way she was going to go that this
19:48was self-defense and that Travis was
19:50abusive and that Travis was a
19:55pedophile even though these were proven
19:58to be for that she's sticking to that
20:00story
20:02yep she sure
20:08is yeah
20:10mhm who did he
20:13abuse her no but if he's a pedophile who
20:18oh we'll see we'll get into that okay
20:20I'm getting ahead of myself
20:22MH yeah so that's the strategy moving
20:27toward trial and is what she would stick
20:31to okay yep mhm so finally it was
20:35January 2nd 2013 and the stage was set
20:39for the trial of the Year mhm decade
20:44Century no not they always say Century
20:48they're always wrong anyway it was a big
20:49damn deal okay the trial took place in
20:53Maricopa County before judge Sher
20:55Stevens and the prosecution was led by
20:58Juan
21:00Martinez and the defense was led by Kirk
21:02nury and Jennifer Wilmont Kirk Nery cute
21:09okay a Nery it sounds like a I don't
21:12know like a Muppet character
21:14exactly and Jennifer Wilmont would serve
21:17as the death penalty qualified defense
21:23attorney in his opening statement Juan
21:26Martinez told the jury
21:29this is not a case a who done
21:33it who done it is sitting here in this
21:37courtroom today M it's the
21:42defendant Jodie an
21:45Aras he then went on to use Jody's own
21:49words against her he offered a quote
21:52from Jodie where she called Travis a
21:53good man and then said as his reward for
21:58being a good man she slid his throat
22:02oh
22:04mhm he then told the jury that she had
22:07referred to him as a blessing in her
22:12life and he then said in terms of
22:17blessings well she knocked the blessings
22:19right out of him by putting a bullet in
22:21his head okay well that's too much it's
22:24a lot yeah yet Mr Juan Martinez is a lot
22:29he's
22:30sure what button am I
22:33hitting you ever used a computer before
22:36my first
22:37time back to the lab
22:41again
22:42oops there goes gravity stop
22:47it the prosecution then went on to show
22:49the jury gruesome pictures of the crime
22:51scene and Travis's body right there in
22:54the opening
22:55arguments and PR told them that they
22:59were going to hear the defense say that
23:01jod did this in
23:03self-defense but Juan Martinez pointed
23:06out that that was her third version of
23:08the story initially she'd claimed to
23:12know nothing about his murder she wasn't
23:15there she hadn't seen him in months then
23:19there were the masked Intruders she'd
23:21been forced to flee and now finally
23:25there was her self-defense claim
23:29that wasn't the truth any more than
23:31either of the other versions Juan told
23:34the I'm sorry probably shouldn't call
23:35him Juan we're not buddies I call
23:38everyone by their first name Juan Martin
23:40it's because I know everyone
23:42personally her selfdefense claim wasn't
23:45any more the truth than any of her other
23:47versions had been it was just another
23:50lie to cover up the heinous and brutal
23:53murder of Travis Alexander
23:58then Juan Martinez offered up the
24:00prosecutions theory of what really
24:03happened they believed that Jody Aras
24:07had planned to murder Travis she had
24:10driven to Mesa that day armed with a gun
24:12and a knife she had dyed her hair brown
24:16so that she wasn't easily
24:18recognizable she'd rented a car so she
24:21wouldn't be spotted and when the rental
24:24place tried to give her a red car she'd
24:26asked for one in a different color
24:28citing some statistics she'd read about
24:31how red cars are more likely to be
24:33pulled over H she had then borrowed and
24:37purchased plastic gas cans filled them
24:40and then put them in the trunk so that
24:43she could drive to and from Mesa without
24:46having to purchase
24:48gas she didn't want to be caught on gas
24:51station surveillance cameras there would
24:53be no record of her ever being in
24:57Arizona
24:59those days in
25:00June okay I hate to say it but that gas
25:03can stuff is not bad yeah that's kind of
25:07the equivalent of space diapers right
25:09there it really is it really
25:13is why had she done
25:16it she was obsessed she was angry she
25:20was supposed to go on that trip to
25:22Cancun with Travis he had invited her
25:26earlier in the year
25:29but as the trip
25:31neared Travis let her know that he was
25:33going to take someone else a friend or a
25:37woman he'd started seeing Mimi
25:41Hall so she'd gone to his house arrived
25:44in the middle of the night slept with
25:47him taken pictures with him and then
25:51when she had him in a vulnerable state
25:54naked in the shower she had attacked him
26:01Juan Martinez concluded his opening
26:03statement by playing for the jury the
26:05Inside Edition interview where Jody said
26:09mark my words no jury will convict
26:13me and Martinez asked the jury to Mark
26:17Jody's
26:20words was pretty good that really is
26:23it's pretty good that's a double doged
26:26area it is and you can't say no to a
26:29double dug D everybody knows that
26:34yep during the defenses opening argument
26:37Jennifer Wilmont acknowledged that jod
26:40had killed Travis
26:41Alexander but said that the key question
26:44in this case was what motivated her to
26:48do that she then told the jury that Jody
26:51had acted in self-defense she said
26:55Travis Alexander lunged at jod and in
26:59Anger Jody's life was in danger he
27:03knocked her to the ground in the
27:04bathroom and there was a struggle if she
27:08did not have to defend
27:10herself she wouldn't be
27:17here I don't think it's very I don't
27:20think it's very good no
27:23yeah I don't think it's a strong
27:25argument I don't I don't know
27:28the defense went on to say that Travis
27:31had pressured jod into
27:35having what vaginal anal and oral sex
27:40with
27:40him that night or in general in general
27:44wasn't he the Mormon guy who had to be
27:46like convinced just you wait just you
27:49wait you know you're telling me that a
27:50lot to hear and I about how Travis
27:54Alexander was a sex fiend
27:57[Music]
28:02she told the jury that they plan to call
28:04to the stand an expert who would testify
28:07about how jod and Travis's relationship
28:12fit the mold of domestic violence yeah
28:15it absolutely did because she murdered
28:18him
28:19mhm
28:21mhm
28:22mhm after opening arguments the
28:25prosecution called their first witness
28:27Mimi
28:29mihal she testified that she knew Travis
28:31Alexander through church and that she'd
28:33gone on a few dates with him she said
28:36that she always felt safe with Travis
28:39never saw any sign of a
28:44temper and that was
28:47that she also testified I believe about
28:49how she was one of the people that were
28:51there the night that his body was found
28:54oh gosh
28:58next prosecutors called one of the first
29:00responding officers to the scene and he
29:02described for the jury what what a
29:05gruesome scene it was the worst he'd
29:07ever worked in his
29:10career next to the stand was detective
29:13estaban Flores I just love his name I
29:17know it's so good so he's the homicide
29:20detective who led the case and he talked
29:23about you know the different facets of
29:25the investigation and then he kind of
29:27zero wrote in on a phone call that he'd
29:30had with jod arus we talked about this
29:32call last time where he was like getting
29:34ready to call her and then she called
29:37him and was like Hey you know have you
29:40heard anything like do you need any help
29:41whatever and so they played this
29:43recorded call yeah in court and in it
29:47jod talked about how she was a good
29:48friend of Travis's and how she wanted to
29:51help the police and any way she possibly
29:53could she told detective Flores that
29:55she'd heard that Travis had passed away
29:57and that there was a lot of blood at the
29:59crime scene H I think it's a really
30:02weird thing to bring up yeah mhm she
30:05asked what type of weapon had been used
30:08she asked if it had been recovered at
30:10the scene and detective Flores on the
30:13call was like yeah I'm sorry that's not
30:15information we can
30:18discuss yeah that's that's a lot to ask
30:21super sus uhhuh
30:24yeah and then he went on and you know to
30:27discuss the nature of her relationship
30:29with Travis and she said oh you know we
30:32dated for about five months and then we
30:36broke up and we just really like
30:37distanced ourselves we stayed friends
30:40but um we're just like
30:42buddies we're like real good buddies mhm
30:46we did remain like intimate but I
30:50wouldn't say it was like
30:52romantic on the call detective Flores
30:55asked jod about the nature of the
30:58breakup how had it gone was everything
31:00you know was it contentious you know how
31:03how' that how'd that all play out and
31:05jod said that she had a suspicion that
31:08Travis was cheating on her and she said
31:11that she just felt like she couldn't
31:12trust him anymore so she broke up with
31:15him so this is interesting because in
31:18other interviews she always says that
31:21the breakup was Mutual uhhuh which it
31:24never
31:25is so you already know that's a l
31:30as this phone call goes on detective
31:33Flores has heard talking to Jody about
31:35how several of Travis's friends have
31:38mentioned that you know there was some
31:40Disturbing Behavior on her part that
31:41maybe she hacked into Travis's email
31:44maybe she'd you know been showing up at
31:46his house Uninvited maybe she snuck
31:49through the doggy door she totally
31:52brushed this off and when she did
31:55detective Flores is like well people
31:57felt like maybe you were taking
31:58advantage of him or maybe hanging out
32:02when you weren't wanted mhm and again
32:06Jody completely dismissed this on this
32:09on this tape and she said you know I'm
32:13sure that's just stuff people say
32:14afterwards cuz I'm the
32:16ex-girlfriend no that's not that's not
32:19that
32:21works and so again detective Flores
32:24pushed her he pushed her pressed her he
32:28said we need to know if someone had some
32:30type of beef with him or why someone
32:33would want to do this to him this was an
32:36angry situation Somebody went in there
32:39to hurt him and they did they hurt him
32:42really
32:45bad and Jody was like I don't even
32:49understand how someone could do that he
32:50was so strong how could someone
32:52overpower
32:54him but then she said you know I I did
32:57always tell him I was concerned about
32:59him because he never locked his
33:01doors like some
33:03stranger broke in and stabbed him 27
33:06times cuz that happens real often no
33:09we've all seen Law and Order this is
33:13personal also this really doesn't make
33:16sense with her later Story I mean
33:19yeah why not bring up the ninjas now
33:22yeah exactly you know you're safe from
33:24the ninjas yeah mhm
33:28unless you haven't brainstormed them yet
33:31exactly so following the the conclusion
33:35of this
33:36recording the witness was turned over to
33:39the defense for cross-examination and
33:41Kirk nury asked detective Flor as if
33:44he'd ever seen a picture of uh the
33:46French maid outfit that Travis Alexander
33:49wanted jod to wear when she would clean
33:51his
33:52house
33:53oo and detective Flores is like no oh I
33:58mean Jody did mention that she had
34:01cleaned Travis Alexander's house but
34:03I've never seen a picture of the French
34:07made
34:09outfit not had the pleasure
34:13uhhuh and
34:14then Kirk nury asked detective Flores if
34:18he had seen the emails that Travis
34:22Alexander had sent jod Aras and Flores
34:25is like yeah I mean there were some
34:28there were lots of emails back and forth
34:30between them like 82,000
34:32exactly and Kirk nury was like well did
34:35you see the ones where Travis Alexander
34:37called Jody a bunch of names like [ __ ]
34:40and
34:41[ __ ] and at that point the prosecution
34:43objected and the judge allowed the
34:48question MH and detective Flores said
34:51yeah I saw those names mentioned in a
34:55few
34:56emails and that was the end of his
34:59testimony what's the point you're making
35:03there that Travis was the abusive
35:06one
35:10okay what I don't know I don't think
35:13that makes a real strong point well they
35:15don't have a strong point there's no
35:17context to
35:21that well what if they're sending dirty
35:23emails back and
35:26forth yeah
35:29hm then you wouldn't want to go into the
35:31context yeah that's true but yeah it is
35:35interesting because if it was a really
35:36damning email wouldn't you want it read
35:38aloud yeah rather than just highlighting
35:42a couple of
35:44[Music]
35:48words a couple of medical examiners
35:51testified a couple of crimes the an
35:53investigators testified and just talked
35:54about the state of Travis's body the
35:57medical examiner talked about
35:58specifically how it was impossible to
36:00know what order the attack took place in
36:04because of the state of his body when he
36:06was discovered it was impossible to know
36:08if he was shot first stabbed first
36:10throat slit first yeah but that it
36:13wasn't really that important because any
36:16one of those could have been the Fatal
36:18blow right the medical examiner did
36:22specify that the stab wounds to Travis
36:26were inflicted with with Major Force and
36:29were very deep so this kind of aligns
36:35with the story that this was like a
36:36personal attack like this was very
36:38personal there was a lot of feeling
36:40behind
36:43this was there a big size difference
36:45between jod and Travis I mean yeah
36:49considerable difference but I guess if
36:51he's naked in the shower he's in a
36:53pretty vulnerable state so yeah yeah I
36:55think it's not an accident that that's
36:57where the attack took place well I mean
37:01it kind of is though because those
37:02Intruders came in they didn't know he
37:04was going to be in the shower that was
37:06more lucky on their part yeah
37:09absolutely um I'm a big Judy arot
37:12Defender
37:14yes a forensic Firearms examiner
37:18testified that there was a 25 caliber
37:20shell casing found at the scene there
37:22was a bullet found inside Travis
37:25Alexander's cheek but she wasn't able to
37:28match them up ballistically because no
37:31gun had ever been found but it was a 25
37:34caliber bullet and a 25 caliber shell
37:37casing the next to testify was Ryan
37:42Burns Ryan Burns we mentioned briefly on
37:45the previous episode as Jody's budding
37:49love interest so remember she was like
37:53oh I couldn't have possibly been the one
37:54to kill Travis because I never wasn't
37:56even seeing Travis I I have a new guy
37:59his name you know he lives in Utah and
38:01he works for PPL too and yeah so he got
38:06on the stand and he talked about how he
38:08was you know he had a brief
38:11relationship with with Jody and that she
38:14had come to visit him the day after
38:18Travis Alexander was murdered and that
38:20they'd had a steamy make out
38:23sesh the trip was planned she was
38:25supposed to come see him but she'd shown
38:26up like
38:28hours late like almost a whole day late
38:32yeah uhhuh weird and she had a couple of
38:36small cuts on her hand I bet she did mhm
38:40and that they hung out like on a big
38:43bean
38:44bag like one of those ones that I want
38:47yeah and they cuddled and he said we
38:49were talking and then we we'd kiss a
38:51little bit and every time we started to
38:54kiss it got a little more escal
38:58ated wow I mean things were really
39:00getting steamy on the stand
39:02mhm he did say that the couple never
39:05removed their clothing and he never
39:07touched her breasts or
39:12anything there's a limit to what you can
39:14do in a bean bag that's right that's
39:17right so this trip was planned he
39:20testified that jod had showed up hours
39:23late and she told him that she'd gotten
39:25lost and then had had to stop to
39:28rest H and when he asked her about the
39:31cut she had on her hand she said that
39:34she had cut them working at
39:38Margaritaville in
39:41wika only there was no
39:45Margaritaville in
39:47WIA she couldn't name like any F food
39:51place nothing yeah or even just the I
39:53was chopping veggies at home yeah no and
39:57he also did note that she'd previously
40:00been a blonde and had suddenly dyed her
40:02hair dark and he noted that she looked
40:05much much better yeah because she had
40:07brassy Roots um clearly an at home die
40:10job that's right brassy as [ __ ] that's
40:13what he said on the stand the
40:14prosecution also questioned Ryan Burns
40:18about is that his
40:20name yeah also if you're messing up
40:22someone's name that's my thing you can't
40:24take that they specifically question
40:26Ryan about about Jody's
40:29strength and he
40:31said she had a tight Bud ooh she was fit
40:36mhm she had a six-pack did she really
40:38yeah and he said she's a lot stronger
40:42than she
40:45looks whoa
40:47mhm
40:49mhm that's right uh so the next day they
40:53called this detective from the wika
40:56Police Department to the stand basically
40:58just to say there's no Margarita Ville
41:06in they're like can you please tell us
41:08where the margarit Ville is located in
41:10WKA and he's like yeah there isn't one
41:12no it was a dramatic courtroom moment I
41:15wish I could we wanted a margarita vill
41:18and wika for
41:22years next they called a police officer
41:24with the WIA Police Department who had
41:27investigated whether there was a
41:29margarita no a robbery call at Jody
41:33aras's house and he said he thought the
41:35whole thing was super weird cuz just
41:37like four things had been taken and he
41:39was like there was all kinds of stuff
41:42still in that house there was a bunch of
41:44other guns the gun was stolen from a gun
41:47cabinet where other guns were still
41:49there and then the other thing that was
41:50stolen was like a cup of quarters well
41:53you know you don't want to get greedy
41:54that's the
41:55thing he said on the stand I believed it
41:59was unusual that small items worth money
42:02for instance the change was not taken so
42:04like a little coup of quarters of
42:05missing but then there was like a giant
42:07thing of change that wasn't
42:09taken to me it's weirder with the guns
42:12you've got a whole guns safe you're not
42:14going to take all the guns he went on to
42:16say I also felt it was strange that only
42:17one of the Firearms was taken from the
42:20cabinet mhm
42:25yeah following his testimony the
42:27prosecution played jod AR's
42:30interrogation oh boy for the jury you
42:32know the one where
42:34she did handstands and sang the dildo
42:38song and do not make that joke
42:42again do you think you've got you've
42:44probably got to have pretty good core
42:45strength to do a headstand yeah yeah she
42:49had a six-pack Ryan burn said I was G to
42:52ask if you'd seen it well I did see the
42:55naked pictures but she wasn't like
42:57flexing flexing yeah she looked fit I
43:02bet she did yeah she had her hair in two
43:06braids uhhuh and then they censored her
43:08nips and her
43:10crotch so
43:15sorry how did you feel about her hair I
43:19didn't care for it at all
43:23uhhuh
43:25specifically the portion of the
43:28interrogation tape they played was part
43:30where jod said I would never want to
43:33hurt him if I did that I'd be fully
43:37ready to face the consequences I am all
43:41for the Ten Commandments thou shal not
43:47kill that strikes me as so weird yeah
43:50it's really [ __ ]
43:53weird I but I always think it's weird
43:55when people do the I didn't do it but if
43:57I did it blah blah blah yeah mhm I would
44:00think you would just end at I I didn't
44:02do it I didn't do it
44:06also if you're trying to think of a
44:08hairstyle that ensures that you don't
44:11leave behind a bunch of loose hairs at
44:13the scene wouldn't two braid two braids
44:15would be a way to do it that's a tip for
44:17all you criminals out
44:20there next to the stand was a man named
44:25Michael galletti
44:27huh mhm okay he ran the Budget car
44:31rental location in Reading California
44:34where Jody Aras rented that vehicle she
44:37rented it on June 2nd 2008 and she
44:41returned it after putting like 2500
44:45miles on it and the floor mats were
44:48missing H and there were red stains all
44:52over the seats oh [ __ ] he assumed it was
44:56Kool-Aid
44:58and just cleaned
45:00it
45:05no
45:07no mhm the floor mats are
45:12missing and what's what are all these
45:14red stains must be
45:19Kool-Aid she had to have played a part
45:22in that
45:23right like been like oh my gosh
45:27something happened and there's like some
45:29stains on there I think there are a lot
45:32of people who are just like none of my
45:34business not getting involved oh that's
45:36that's very possible I think that's that
45:39yeah
45:41yeah on January 17th 2013 the
45:45prosecution arrested their case they
45:48bleeded out all the parts were
45:52there following that though the the
45:54defense filed a motion asking for a
45:57dismissal specifically of the
46:00premeditation charge they said uh-uh the
46:03prosecution has failed to present
46:06evidence of premeditation what about
46:08those ugly braids that's premeditation
46:10right there Juan Martinez was like what
46:12the [ __ ] are you talking about I showed
46:14all kinds of stuff about premeditation
46:16the burglary of her home the dying of
46:19her hair the the rental car the gas cans
46:23in the back of the car his voice got
46:26higher each
46:27poor
46:29one and the judge said that she would
46:31review the motion and like I think like
46:33for like 12 days the court was in recess
46:37while really
46:40yes that judge was taking a spa day or
46:43something that's not that big a thinker
46:45ultimately the motion was
46:47denied
46:50yes and when the trial resumed the
46:52defense started their case by calling
46:55Jody's ex-boy friend Daryl Brewer to the
47:00stand Daryl was a 52-year-old
47:03deor oh my mhm with a teenage son he
47:08testified that he met Jodie in 2001 when
47:11she was about 22 years old and they
47:14dated for about four years he testified
47:17that they were in love Chris with your
47:21face is beautiful is that what you're
47:24going to say
47:27get out of here yeah I mean he would
47:29have been not that
47:32old right how old would he have been um
47:37now now I got to do some math if he's 52
47:40he would have
47:42been 39 and she was 20 yeah that's too
47:44old that's too old too old get out of
47:50here so the defense talked about their
47:53relationship a little bit and you know I
47:56you know normal and loving and
47:58everything it was and then on
48:00cross-examination uh Juan Martinez asked
48:03Daryl Brewer if he recalled when he told
48:05investigators that Jody was pretty
48:08aggressive during
48:11sex and he said he didn't recall that
48:14statement I say it to so many people but
48:17he did acknowledge that he and Jody had
48:21anal sex what does that have to do with
48:24I don't know it comes up so many times
48:27times the idea is
48:29that Jody talks about how she was forced
48:33to do things that she didn't really want
48:35to
48:36do sexually okay with Travis Alexander
48:40that he pressured her to try things she
48:42didn't really want to try but she
48:44thought that she had to do them to be
48:46with him and so the idea is that
48:49by this ex saying oh yeah we had anal
48:52sex like Travis wasn't the first person
48:55to bring it up to you
48:58yeah I don't really love that you can do
49:01something with one person and not want
49:02to do it with the next one
49:04absolutely during his testimony Brewer
49:06said that he and Jody had been together
49:09for about 5 years they purchased a house
49:11together in 2005 in Palm Desert
49:14California they had discussed marriage
49:17at one point but Daryl said he wasn't
49:21ready he recently divorced time to
49:25mature he was was ready to get into
49:27another marriage following his
49:30divorce there was also a line of
49:32questioning about how jod Aras got
49:34breast implants while they were together
49:37and that she had done it to fit in with
49:39his group of friends did his group of
49:42friends all have breast implants I don't
49:44know I only hang out with women with
49:47breast
49:49implants again what does it have to do
49:51with anything I don't know is the point
49:54just she's a big [ __ ] [ __ ] [ __ ] point is
49:57that she changes herself to fit in with
49:59different
49:59groups like so she got a breast implants
50:02for this guy she became a Mormon for
50:05Travis okay so he wasn't really
50:07pressuring her so much as this is just
50:08how yes this is how she does it yes
50:11exactly she gets big fat
50:14titties yeah exactly um he oh now she's
50:18a [ __ ] he also testified that he never
50:21really knew her to have a temper but
50:24what he did say was that she done some
50:27kind of creepy things like what um he
50:31she had taken photos of him without his
50:34consent while he was nude while he was
50:38sleeping while he was in the shower no
50:41what
50:43yeah
50:45mhm why exactly Jody you big
50:49creep
50:53mhm he said that the couple's
50:55relationship deteriorated in the fall of
50:582006 when they stopped having sex
51:01because jod decided that she was saving
51:03herself for marriage I do like
51:13that
51:15okay
51:17they their house was
51:19foreclosed on in 2007 Jody moved out the
51:24couple remained in contact as friends
51:27for some time and in May of 2008 she
51:31called him
51:32and asked if she could borrow some gas
51:35cans cuz she was taking a road trip are
51:37you kidding mhm I'm not
51:41kidding and he testified that he loaned
51:44her those gas cans on June 3rd
51:512008 yep and he said he never got them
51:55back
51:58mhm so that's the real crime here
52:01yes the defense centered their
52:03questioning of darl Brewer around his
52:05sex life with jod this is someone she
52:07had been in a long-term relationship
52:09with they' bought a house together Kirk
52:11nury asked Brewer did your sex life
52:15involve her wearing little boys
52:16underwear wearing pigtails and school
52:19girl outfits bending her over a desk
52:23ejaculating on her face calling her a
52:26[ __ ] a [ __ ] or a three hold Wonder
52:30oh this is on an actual Court transcript
52:34she's got more holes than that I'm just
52:35telling you
52:38Jesus so all of these were in reference
52:41to behavior they claimed Travis had used
52:44to degrade Jody yeah I think we got ity
52:47I mean it would be really weird if it
52:49wasn't and uh Daryl Brewer
52:52said
52:54no next to testify was Gus cersi he
52:58testified for the defense and he said he
52:59was a friend and mentor of jodies while
53:01they were working together at PPL and he
53:04testified that jod always dressed
53:06feminine but conservative and she was
53:08never sexually inappropriate with
53:11him I mean tell you the truth I wish she
53:14had been she didn't make eyes at me
53:21once so they then tried to kind of
53:24attack the character of Travis Alexander
53:27by calling his ex-girlfriend Lisa
53:30Andrews
53:31diodon she testified that she felt
53:35cheated and lied to in her relationship
53:38with Travis she said she met Travis at a
53:41church function and they dated on and
53:43off beginning in July of 2007 she was 18
53:48and Travis was 29
53:52ew she said she broke up with him after
53:55she became suspicious that he was
53:57cheating on her with jod Aras [ __ ]
54:04yeah after they broke up though Travis
54:06continued to call and email her and
54:09eventually when she felt she could trust
54:11him again they got back together but
54:14Lisa said she felt pressured by
54:17Travis to get
54:19married and that was something she
54:21didn't feel ready for so she broke up
54:23with him yeah cuz she was a teenager
54:25yeah
54:27mhm the dein then questioned Lisa
54:30specifically about an email she sent to
54:32Travis on September 23rd
54:342007 in the email Lisa told Travis that
54:37she didn't want him to text her or email
54:40her
54:43anymore she said in the email that when
54:46they were together they would make out
54:47for too long and that Lisa felt Travis
54:50only wanted her for her
54:53body she told Travis that
54:56she felt like he had a lot of sexual
54:58tension which made her feel used and
55:03dirty and she wrote that she had asked
55:06Travis repeatedly not to grab her butt
55:09in public but she didn't feel like he
55:11was listening to her yeah that's super
55:14disrespectful [ __ ]
55:16absolutely she also said that she had
55:19asked him not to talk about sex so much
55:21it wasn't something she wanted to talk
55:22about she felt dirty doing that and he
55:25continued to do do it anyway and she
55:28said she didn't feel like he cared how
55:31she
55:32felt yeah in the email she went on to
55:36say that she felt like Travis was
55:37constantly asking her for compliments
55:40but that she didn't feel like he shared
55:43the same values that she embraced she
55:45was very into her faith very into the
55:47idea of Chastity until marriage and she
55:50felt like he was just constantly wanting
55:51to make out and while they they never
55:54had like a physical relationship Beyond
55:56making out but she felt like very
55:58pressured that that's where he wanted to
56:00go
56:03yeah she testified that after she sent
56:07that email that they discussed it at
56:10length and Travis said that he wanted to
56:13show her that he cared about her and he
56:16wanted to address all of those issues in
56:19the
56:21email and she testified that she had
56:24written the email in anger and that once
56:27they talked she felt like the issues
56:30were resolved and they got back together
56:35again this time they didn't stay
56:37together for very long they had uh they
56:40broke up for good in February of 2008
56:43and she stopped communicating with him
56:46after
56:47that on the stand Jennifer Wilmont asked
56:51Lisa if she was shocked to discover
56:54after Travis Alexander's death that he
56:57was not a virgin and she said yes she
57:01was very surprised to learn
57:04that my take on this is that like yeah
57:07it's not great Behavior but if you're
57:09trying to destroy somebody's character
57:11like I
57:12don't I don't know that this goes that
57:14far to do
57:17that I don't know I think you know
57:21if if the picture you're trying to paint
57:24is this guy didn't respect sexual
57:27boundaries yeah this guy was
57:30disrespectful yeah I think this is a
57:33pretty good way to do it
57:36yeah because it sounds like he was
57:38disrespectful I I do I think it's at a
57:40different level than what jod Aras is
57:43claiming well yeah he's not climbing in
57:44a dog door and everything yeah yeah it's
57:48not
57:49great
57:51yeah a couple more friends of Travis's
57:54were called to the stand to testify
57:56about a trip Jody and Travis had taken
57:59with friends to the Grand Canyon so on
58:00the day that they were all supposed to
58:02leave they were like standing around and
58:04like Travis's living room and Travis
58:06apparently went to pick up Jody's
58:07backpack and he was like he was mad that
58:11she'd packed too much stuff he raised
58:14his voice and he told her that she'd
58:15packed too much stuff and jod began to
58:17cry and she ran
58:20upstairs Travis followed her and it was
58:23clear to everybody who was still in the
58:24living room that they were upstairs
58:26fighting finally they came downstairs
58:28and when the group got in the car to
58:29leave jod and Travis were not speaking
58:32to each
58:33other and it was real awkward for
58:36everybody else in the car but like after
58:3730 minutes it seemed that all had been
58:39forgotten and everyone had a great time
58:41on the trip that's so weird you ever had
58:43a couple fight right in front of you nor
58:46I just called you
58:48nor no I've never had a super
58:53awkward never that's great uh-huh that's
58:56good that you've never had that
58:57experience I bet it'd be weird if you
58:59did it would be it'd be real weird I
59:03don't know again this is supposed to
59:04surely has like some great temper like I
59:06feel like every couple's had that
59:07argument right yeah
59:10absolutely why'd you pack so much stuff
59:14oh my God stop yelling at
59:16me yeah I mean it sucks that it happened
59:18in front of people but I don't know that
59:21it's like some huge thing yeah I agree
59:25and they had a shitty
59:27exact on top finally we've come to the
59:32moment you've all been waiting for jod
59:36takes the stand in her own defense yes
59:38on February 4th 2013 the 13th day of her
59:42murder
59:43trial coincidence I think not jod Aries
59:47took the stand in her own defense and
59:49she would remain there for the next 18
59:54days in his first question Kirk nury
59:58asked Jody if she had killed Travis
1:00:03Alexander and Jody
1:00:05said yes I did shut up she
1:00:09did she he said did you kill Travis
1:00:13Alexander and she said yes I
1:00:17did what
1:00:20yeah and then Kirk nury asked her why
1:00:25and jod said
1:00:26the simple answer is that he attacked me
1:00:31and I had to defend myself oh my god oh
1:00:34yeah the [ __ ] world went
1:00:38crazy oh my God by this point this case
1:00:42is insane like HLN is set up out they've
1:00:46got TV set up outside the courtroom cuz
1:00:49crowds have gathered every day to watch
1:00:51the trial and you know only a handful of
1:00:53people can get into the courtroom so
1:00:55there's just crowds outside they've got
1:00:56projector set up so everybody can see it
1:00:59every night they're doing a recap on HLN
1:01:01of all the juicy testimony of that day
1:01:04also by this point jod Aras had
1:01:06undergone quite a make under okay so we
1:01:10already know you know she's dyed her
1:01:11hair brown she stays with the brown
1:01:13right but she gets you know a real
1:01:14plasticky pair of glasses she starts
1:01:17wearing real frumpy clothes as the trial
1:01:20went on her clothes got frumer and
1:01:23frumer and she started SP sporting these
1:01:26like little bangs like these little
1:01:27wispy bangs by the time she took the
1:01:31stand she was sporting wispy bangs and a
1:01:34little half pony that stuck out the side
1:01:37of her head what
1:01:41yes to make her look like a toddler
1:01:45[Music]
1:01:48yes
1:01:51oh this is amazing I mean clearly I did
1:01:54not follow this story yes
1:01:55[Music]
1:01:57okay so I read something this is the
1:01:59first time I had read this that the
1:02:01reason for her baggy clothes cuz all of
1:02:04her clothes were super baggy and all of
1:02:05the pictures of her she wears these
1:02:06tight clothes to show off her hot little
1:02:08bod right sure okay so the reason she
1:02:11wore baggy clothes is because obviously
1:02:14as a defendant you don't want the jury
1:02:16to view you as guilty right but she's in
1:02:19custody and so they can't have visible
1:02:21Shackles on her so they had thigh
1:02:25restraints on her oh and they also had a
1:02:29stun belt on
1:02:31her cuz they were that worried that yeah
1:02:35wow a stun belt that at the Press of a
1:02:38button would send like 50,000 volts
1:02:40through her
1:02:41body whoa
1:02:45yeah I learned that for the very first
1:02:47time researching this episode was very
1:02:51exciting for
1:02:52me how would you dress for a trial
1:02:56I mean I'd probably play it up too she
1:02:58looked like a full-on school M with a
1:02:59half pony I don't think you would I
1:03:02probably wouldn't you be like I know
1:03:05what I like she even like ditched the
1:03:07makeup which was
1:03:10like I mean they really probably had to
1:03:12convince her on that her defense may I
1:03:14look yeah yeah look her up jod Aries on
1:03:18the
1:03:21stand Jody Aries on the stand okay and
1:03:25Imes please oh yeah oh man look at that
1:03:30little pony y just sticking out the side
1:03:33of her head come on
1:03:37Jody it's so
1:03:40funny it's such a dramatic make under no
1:03:44I'm not a sex pot she doesn't look like
1:03:48a sex pot she looks like the most boring
1:03:51fourth grade
1:03:54teacher wow
1:03:58wow sorry now I'm going to look up jod
1:04:01here is just regular yeah look at her
1:04:03when she's a blonde and she's
1:04:08like I want your B I want your bad hot
1:04:13Bud yeah I've got to admit if I look
1:04:16this hot it'd be really hard for me to
1:04:18do a make under of course it would I'd
1:04:21get up there looking like that fourth
1:04:22grade school teacher but I'd turn to the
1:04:24jury be like just so you know I'm really
1:04:25hot
1:04:27yeah okay I've got to stop looking at oh
1:04:30did you see this one where she's hugging
1:04:32a tree
1:04:33all oh yeah I think we all have that
1:04:36picture where we're hugging a tree H
1:04:38tree of course okay so the big bomb is
1:04:42dropped did you kill him yes I did in a
1:04:44nutshell it was to defend myself okay oh
1:04:47the simp or sorry the simple answer is
1:04:49that I had to defend
1:04:50myself no nutshells were no
1:04:54nutshells so that was kind of the end of
1:04:57that line of questioning for the moment
1:04:58from there they went and talked about
1:05:00her childhood she talked about how she
1:05:02like until the age of seven she had a
1:05:03pretty good childhood and then at the
1:05:05age of seven I don't know something
1:05:06happened and all of a sudden she started
1:05:08being regularly abused by her parents
1:05:11she testified that from the age of seven
1:05:15until she like moved out when she was
1:05:16like 14 the beatings became more and
1:05:19more intense and that her mother
1:05:22actually would carry a wooden spoon in
1:05:24her purse so that she could beat her
1:05:26with it whenever she wanted
1:05:29to did jod have siblings she did she had
1:05:33like two half sisters and a brother or
1:05:36something like that yeah she's three
1:05:38siblings did any of them testify about
1:05:41mm no okay no and her mom was there for
1:05:45her trial she came every day of her
1:05:47trial and supported her
1:05:50daughter from there her line of
1:05:52testimony turned to specifically the
1:05:55lies that she told following her arrest
1:05:58and leading up to trial specifically she
1:06:01said of the no jury will ever convict me
1:06:05ly that she meant it not because she was
1:06:08innocent but because she had plans to
1:06:11die by
1:06:13Suicide mhm she said I was extremely
1:06:17confident that no jury would convict me
1:06:19because I didn't expect any of you to be
1:06:22here I planned to be dead
1:06:28but she did say no jury would convict
1:06:30her because she was innocent if you roll
1:06:33the tape on the Inside Edition let's not
1:06:35roll the tape let's just listen to
1:06:36whatever [ __ ] she has to
1:06:39say on February 5th Jody's testimony
1:06:42centered on her relationship with Travis
1:06:44she described how they met at the PPL
1:06:46conference and how she was very
1:06:48attracted to him but she had a boyfriend
1:06:51the 52-year-old who she lived with in
1:06:54Palm Desert and so following the
1:06:56conference she went home and broke up
1:06:58with her boyfriend and started
1:07:01communicating with Travis that same week
1:07:04she said she went and stayed with Travis
1:07:06and some of his friends for a few days
1:07:09she testified while she was there that
1:07:11Travis came into the bedroom that she
1:07:13was staying at and that like kind of
1:07:15everyone went to their rooms at the same
1:07:18time and she went to her room and then
1:07:19Travis came in and they were talking and
1:07:23she said like they started kissing at at
1:07:25this point and then like at some point
1:07:28they were like laying down and kissing
1:07:31and Travis started taking her clothes
1:07:33off and she said she didn't stop him she
1:07:37said I didn't want to tell him no so I
1:07:40just kept going with
1:07:42it she said that at that point Travis
1:07:45took all of her clothes off and he
1:07:46performed oral sex on her and she
1:07:49performed oral sex on him after that
1:07:52they fell asleep together And she said
1:07:55that she was bothered by this experience
1:07:58she said it felt like too much too soon
1:08:01and it made her
1:08:03uncomfortable she said that after that
1:08:05first sexual encounter with Travis I'm
1:08:08sorry that they went to church together
1:08:11like that next morning and then they
1:08:13went their separate ways she didn't see
1:08:15him again in person until September and
1:08:18then I so I mean a couple weeks maybe
1:08:21uhhuh and at that time they met in
1:08:23California at a coffee shop and during
1:08:26that meeting they left the coffee shop
1:08:28and went out to her car and started
1:08:29making out and Travis told her that he
1:08:32was horny and that he wanted her to
1:08:36perform oral sex on him in the parking
1:08:39lot coffee shop in the parking lot of
1:08:41the coffee shop and she said I felt an
1:08:43attraction to him and the feeling was
1:08:45mutual and I wanted to I just wanted to
1:08:47I don't know I wanted to do what he
1:08:49wanted to do and so she performed oral
1:08:54sex on him and in the car and
1:08:58afterwards he pulled up his pants and
1:09:00they left like he got out of the car and
1:09:04she stayed in the car and left she said
1:09:06he refused to kiss me goodbye because he
1:09:08said it was gross maybe because I had
1:09:10been performing oral sex but he just
1:09:13kissed me on the cheek and then left
1:09:16well I don't like that at all I know I
1:09:17don't like that either also was it a
1:09:19Starbucks uh I don't know Brandy what
1:09:23the hell oh it all she said in her
1:09:26testimony was that they met at a
1:09:27California Coffee
1:09:31Shop she said after Travis left he left
1:09:34her a voicemail and in it he expressed
1:09:39displeasure with himself over the
1:09:42encounter why was he upset with himself
1:09:45because he shouldn't have done it
1:09:50because he was a good Mormon
1:09:53boy God religion really [ __ ] with
1:09:55does it
1:09:58ites cuz his big mistake was no you
1:10:01can't kiss me yeah
1:10:04exactly uh jod testified that despite
1:10:07this feeling that things were going too
1:10:09fast for her her relationship with
1:10:11Travis continued to develop and her
1:10:14feelings for him continued to grow okay
1:10:17so during the third day of her testimony
1:10:21so by this time the courtroom packed
1:10:23right cuz she's talking about all this
1:10:24sexy stuff what whatever so she told a
1:10:26packed courtroom about kind of this
1:10:29evolution of their sexual relationship
1:10:32she talked about how Travis had this
1:10:34view of sex that she likened to uh Bill
1:10:36Clinton's view of sex that only actual
1:10:39like penis in vagina mhm counts as sex
1:10:43oral sex doesn't count anal sex doesn't
1:10:45count because that's that's so weird
1:10:49yeah but I mean there are people who
1:10:51think that yeah yeah mhm that's right
1:10:54and so
1:10:55like he was all for doing any of that um
1:11:00she talked about how they would do
1:11:02things like grinding or what they called
1:11:04the Provo
1:11:08push it did take me a second all right
1:11:11proo youah okay and that they regularly
1:11:15engaged in oral sex they in fact met at
1:11:18a hotel once very early into their
1:11:22relationship they were not together at
1:11:23this point yet they this is when they
1:11:24just started Ed having a physical
1:11:26relationship and that they'd met at a
1:11:28hotel somewhere in Arizona
1:11:33and that they had engaged in oral sex
1:11:36and she testified that she felt like a
1:11:38prostitute after that hotel encounter
1:11:41she said I felt a little bit used but I
1:11:44knew I had gone there on my own
1:11:48willingly she said that for a few days
1:11:51after that Meetup at the hotel that
1:11:53Travis did not return her calls she said
1:11:56she felt bummed out and she felt stupid
1:12:00and then a week later he finally called
1:12:03her and then a couple days after that he
1:12:06sent her a
1:12:10dickpick
1:12:12yeah on February 11th of 2013 jod
1:12:15testified that one night in May of 2007
1:12:18she spent the night at Travis's house
1:12:21and that she woke up to find Travis
1:12:23having sex with her
1:12:25oh wow
1:12:27mhm Kirk nury asked her did you want him
1:12:31to penetrate your vagina with his penis
1:12:34while you were
1:12:36sleeping and jod replied it was nothing
1:12:39I had thought about she went on to say
1:12:42that she was uncomfortable but did not
1:12:44tell Travis to stop she said I felt like
1:12:47I was partially responsible because I
1:12:48went to sleep next to him I was wearing
1:12:51a t-shirt and cute shorts
1:12:58what do you think I don't
1:13:00know oh yeah it's I don't know because
1:13:05I she's not credible is the problem that
1:13:08yeah
1:13:10yeah she's not credible and she's never
1:13:12told these stories before and there's no
1:13:15proof to back these stories up which I
1:13:17know like that sucks it sucks that I'm
1:13:19like questioning her version of events
1:13:25H
1:13:28yeah what do you think I don't know I
1:13:31think I'm dealing with the same things
1:13:32you are like every other thing she's
1:13:35said Is A Lie yeah
1:13:38but I think coupled with the 18-year-old
1:13:42stories about sexual pressure yeah
1:13:46[Music]
1:13:48um now this is obviously a huge
1:13:50escalation over that but yeah but yeah
1:13:54yeah
1:13:56I think part of it is it's not in my
1:13:57nature to like hear a woman tell a story
1:14:00like that and be like you're F [ __ ]
1:14:02totally agree and so there's kind of a I
1:14:04think the thing that I have in my head
1:14:06is that essentially those two things the
1:14:10pressuring of the 18-year-old with the
1:14:13grabbing her butt and kissing her for
1:14:15too long is overlapping with this this
1:14:19would be the same time period so is he
1:14:20really like
1:14:23having sex with this other woman and
1:14:27then like the most pressure he's giving
1:14:29this other girl is that he's kissing her
1:14:30too long and he's grabbing her butt
1:14:32possibly yeah I mean I it it is possible
1:14:35and again I'm I'm thinking of it through
1:14:37the lens of like really religious stuff
1:14:40of like you see the Madonna and the
1:14:42[ __ ] yeah you're going to maybe treat
1:14:45them differently right yeah and he had
1:14:48at this point already like labeled jod
1:14:52as not marriage material and MH but at
1:14:55the same time he's telling his friends
1:14:57that Jody's a
1:14:58Nyo and she's sending him dirty text
1:15:02messages so maybe she deserves it no
1:15:04that's not what I'm saying that's not
1:15:06what I'm saying what I'm saying is no
1:15:08that's what I'm saying is that could be
1:15:11his mind absolutely it could be it
1:15:14you're absolutely right it's very
1:15:16complicated ew I hate it I
1:15:19no all right well let's see what you
1:15:21think about this next part okay one of
1:15:24the most memorable moments from The
1:15:26Trial came later that same day when jod
1:15:30testified about a day in January 2008
1:15:34when she walked in on Travis
1:15:37masturbating to the image of a young boy
1:15:40in his underwear she said I walked in
1:15:43and Travis was on the bed masturbating
1:15:45and I got really embarrassed he started
1:15:47grabbing something on the bed and I
1:15:49realized they were papers and one fell
1:15:51and kind of floated and landed face up
1:15:55in front of me near my feet and it was a
1:15:58photograph it was a picture of a little
1:16:02boy she said I didn't know how to react
1:16:05I ran I got in my car and I started
1:16:07driving home but she said she returned
1:16:10to the to Travis's house later that
1:16:12night and asked him to explain what she
1:16:15had
1:16:16seen she testified that Travis told her
1:16:19that he had a sexual interest in
1:16:21children but that he preferred sex with
1:16:23women because it made him feel more
1:16:27normal and she went on to say that he
1:16:29seemed very ashamed of
1:16:32himself I'll be honest I'd forgotten
1:16:35about where she wrote those fake letters
1:16:38and I now I'm back to thinking she's
1:16:40totally full of [ __ ] there's something
1:16:43about the way the the photo
1:16:45floats and then like the plastic bag in
1:16:48American Beauty most beautiful thing
1:16:50I've ever seen and then it's a little
1:16:51boy in his underwear
1:16:55we've all been there I think this never
1:16:57happened yeah I don't think so
1:17:02yep following that story jod then
1:17:05testified about the abuse she claimed to
1:17:07have suffered at Travis's hand in
1:17:10October of 2007 she said she and Travis
1:17:12got into some kind of argument and
1:17:14Travis had pushed her down he called her
1:17:16brother a homosexual slur and she
1:17:19testified that he then kicked her in the
1:17:21ribs and he attempted to kick her again
1:17:23but she blocked it with her hand hand
1:17:26and when she blocked it with her hand
1:17:27and he he like kicked her and the
1:17:31blow broke her
1:17:33finger and to this day her finger is
1:17:37still crooked and she held that crooked
1:17:41finger up to show the
1:17:44Cherry okay
1:17:47yeah I don't know don't no man
1:17:51[Laughter]
1:17:55the next day jod testified about the
1:17:57final hours leading up to Travis's
1:18:01death jod said that she had been
1:18:03planning a trip to Utah in June to meet
1:18:06to go see that her new boyfriend Ryan
1:18:08Burns or whatever and that she'd told
1:18:10Travis and Travis was like come see me
1:18:12don't go see him and she said Travis was
1:18:14being very sweet he wanted me to come
1:18:17see him and so I said all right I'm
1:18:20going she said she left Pasadena
1:18:23California on June 3rd and drove to
1:18:26Travis's house in Mesa and arrived there
1:18:29on June 4th sometime between 3:00 and
1:18:314:00 a.m. she said it was still dark but
1:18:34it was early morning I parked in the
1:18:35same spot I always Park in when I'm at
1:18:37his house which was the center spot on
1:18:39the driveway she said she went in and
1:18:42they watched dumb videos on his laptop
1:18:45and he showed her this new punching bag
1:18:48that he'd recently purchased she said he
1:18:50was really proud of it he was showing
1:18:51how he was punching it and he was
1:18:53showing off and then the two went to
1:18:55sleep in his bed she said she woke up
1:18:58about 12:30 p.m. on June
1:19:014th and Travis woke up about 30 minutes
1:19:04later and they engaged in a little light
1:19:07bondage
1:19:09play she said that Travis tied her up
1:19:13with a decorative rope and that he cut
1:19:17the rope with a knife that he retrieved
1:19:21from the kitchen oh so he brought the
1:19:23murder weapon into the the room mhm did
1:19:26he also get the gun for the light
1:19:27bondage play mhm yeah no rope was ever
1:19:30found just for the record okay
1:19:34[Music]
1:19:36mhm Kirk Nery asked jod if she wanted to
1:19:39be tied up and she said it's not my
1:19:41favorite thing to do but it's not
1:19:44unbearable she said that she was naked
1:19:47when Travis tighter up but that Travis
1:19:49was dressed in his LDS temple garments
1:19:55she said that Travis performed oral sex
1:19:58on her and that she asked him to stop
1:20:00because he hadn't shaved and his face
1:20:02was
1:20:06scratchy after a short bondage session
1:20:10Jodie said that they had sex took some
1:20:14videos took some photos and then they
1:20:17deleted all of
1:20:19it she said she then took a shower and
1:20:24got dressed and was going to leave to go
1:20:26on her road trip to Utah and she gave
1:20:31Travis some
1:20:33ceds that had some photos on them from
1:20:36some trips that they had taken
1:20:38previously and Travis went to like look
1:20:41at the CDs and they were scratched and
1:20:44they wouldn't work and he got really
1:20:47mad so he flung one at her
1:20:52head we all love to look at get vacation
1:20:56piics and when we can't do that we lose
1:20:59our ever loving [ __ ] that's right maybe
1:21:01he didn't intend to throw it at her head
1:21:04maybe he was throwing it at the wall and
1:21:06it ricocheted off and hit her in the
1:21:07head mhm either way she testified I
1:21:09thought i' had done something stupid
1:21:11again and he was getting angry she said
1:21:14he seemed very pissed off he grabbed her
1:21:17by her arms smacked her in the face and
1:21:20spun her around and then he bent her
1:21:24over the bed
1:21:25and they had sex
1:21:28again she
1:21:30said he ejaculated on her back and then
1:21:33told her to go wash up and she said I
1:21:37felt used when he said go wash up mhm
1:21:41after cleaning herself up jod testified
1:21:43that she went back to Travis's bedroom
1:21:46and they took more photos of each other
1:21:49and she said that Travis had really been
1:21:51working out and he was really proud of
1:21:53his body and so he was open to taking
1:21:59pictures of
1:22:01himself that was kind of the end of the
1:22:04testimony that day it would pick up the
1:22:05next day kind of in the same spot and
1:22:07talked more about what happened
1:22:09following that so she testified pretty
1:22:13calmly during this part she cried a
1:22:15couple times but she
1:22:18said the photo sesh eventually moved
1:22:23into the bathroom room he was in the
1:22:25shower posing for pictures and at one
1:22:27point she dropped his camera and Travis
1:22:31became so
1:22:32enraged that he lunged at her and body
1:22:36slammed her to the
1:22:38floor she said it was like Mortal Terror
1:22:42I pissed him off the worst I'd ever seen
1:22:44him pissed off she said she ran to his
1:22:47closet we talked about this a little bit
1:22:48on the on the previous episode from the
1:22:50bathroom you could either go down like a
1:22:52hallway or around into the prim Mary
1:22:54bedroom closet and so she said I ran
1:22:58from him to the nearby closet to escape
1:23:01him she said I was scared he was
1:23:02freaking out I was freaking out I could
1:23:05hear his footsteps chasing me I didn't
1:23:07want him to grab me again she said at
1:23:09that time she remembered that Travis had
1:23:11a gun in his
1:23:14closet and so she grabbed it to protect
1:23:17herself she said he ran chasing me I
1:23:20turned around and I pointed the gun at
1:23:22him so he would stop chasing me she said
1:23:26I thought pointing the gun at him would
1:23:28stop him but he grabbed my waist and the
1:23:31gun went off I didn't mean to shoot him
1:23:33or anything I didn't even know I shot
1:23:39him she said the next thing I remembered
1:23:42I was in the bathroom I remember
1:23:43dropping the knife and it clinked to the
1:23:45tile and it made a big noise and I just
1:23:47remember screaming I don't remember
1:23:49anything after that she said she might
1:23:52have put the knife in the dishwasher
1:23:54after she'd stabbed Travis Alexander she
1:23:57said she then fled his home and drove
1:24:00into the desert where she disposed of
1:24:02the
1:24:03handgun she said I was scared and I
1:24:06couldn't imagine calling 911 and telling
1:24:08them what I'd just done I was scared of
1:24:11what would happen to
1:24:13me following her arrest jod said that
1:24:16she didn't know what to say to police so
1:24:18she just denied it she said I guess I
1:24:20didn't understand that I could be quiet
1:24:22and not say anything at all
1:24:25she then went on to talk about the
1:24:27interviews she gave with media and how
1:24:29she had planned to commit suicide but
1:24:31she didn't talk any further about the
1:24:34murder
1:24:35itself and following that line of
1:24:38questioning Kurt NY announced that he
1:24:39was done with his direct
1:24:45examination on Cross examination Jody's
1:24:48attitude seemed to change a lot she was
1:24:51kind of this Meek little thing who' been
1:24:54pressured into this deviant sexual
1:24:56relationship about which she remembered
1:24:59every single detail mhm but suddenly
1:25:02when she faced off with Juan Martinez
1:25:04she got snippy and almost snarky and
1:25:08lots of people speculated that this was
1:25:10the real Jodie coming out jod couldn't
1:25:14seem to remember many details when being
1:25:17asked questions by the prosecution and
1:25:19Juan Martinez pressed her about this he
1:25:21said you have a lot of memory for a lot
1:25:24lot of events involving sexual instances
1:25:26with Mr Alexander but you seem to be
1:25:29having problems with your memory here
1:25:31today
1:25:35mm and he went on to say what factors
1:25:38influence you having a memory
1:25:40problem and Jody said usually when men
1:25:44like you are screaming at me or grilling
1:25:47me or men like Travis doing the
1:25:51same mm
1:25:55this cross-examination would go on for
1:25:57like six hours and Jody did not come off
1:26:00great yeah I bet the prosecution was
1:26:03just loving it oh yeah oh
1:26:06yeah
1:26:08yeah and comparing the prosecutor to the
1:26:11guy who evidently deserved to be
1:26:14murdered yeah putting them on the same
1:26:16level it really shows the jury well I
1:26:18don't think this guy's that bad maybe
1:26:20the other guy isn't bad either yeah yes
1:26:23EX
1:26:26exactly at the end of this day's cross
1:26:28examination so like 6 hours had gone on
1:26:30where he's just like grilling her and
1:26:32she can't remember anything and she's
1:26:33talking about how she didn't even
1:26:34realize like she goes through he has her
1:26:36go through like the murder again and she
1:26:37can't remember anything and then she all
1:26:39she remembers is she came to like she
1:26:41blacked out and she came to and she was
1:26:43in the middle of the desert her hands
1:26:44were covered in blood MH and then she
1:26:47had she wasn't even sure what she had
1:26:49done
1:26:51yeah so at the end of this Juan Martin
1:26:54has actually changed the questioning to
1:26:58these
1:26:59magazines that jod Aras had tried to
1:27:03smuggle out of prison or out of jail to
1:27:07a friend who was visiting her in August
1:27:09of 2011 okay so this friend had come in
1:27:12and she tried to like get her the sneak
1:27:15her these magazines well the friend had
1:27:16been caught leaving with these magazines
1:27:19and jod had written secret messages
1:27:22inside like the The Binding of the
1:27:25magazine
1:27:27uhhuh and one of them it
1:27:30read you [ __ ] up what you told my
1:27:33attorney directly contradicts what I've
1:27:35been saying for over a year get down
1:27:38here ASAP and see me before you talk to
1:27:40them again and before you testify so we
1:27:43can fix
1:27:44this oh wow yeah that's not
1:27:48good and again you're seeing the real
1:27:51her yes this is the real Jody
1:27:56oh [ __ ] mhm
1:27:59mhm so that was the end of that day the
1:28:02cross-examination continued the next I
1:28:04me it continued for several days and
1:28:06like Juan Martinez did not let up on her
1:28:10a lot of people thought that he went too
1:28:11hard on her and he probably did and he
1:28:14didn't need to yeah the case was great
1:28:17he didn't need to do this but like he
1:28:19needed to do this for who he was I was
1:28:22going to say he was probably so sick of
1:28:23her [ __ ] can you imagine he was and also
1:28:26he was loving the attention the dude was
1:28:27signing autographs outside the
1:28:29courthouse every day I think that's so
1:28:32gross he's not he's not a great dude I'm
1:28:34just spoiler alert like all right all
1:28:37right he was loving every minute of it
1:28:39and like anytime he was sitting at the
1:28:41prosecution table he had a little smirk
1:28:43on his face and just like I remember at
1:28:46the time being like Oh yeah get him one
1:28:49or get her one and then like when I
1:28:51re-watched this footage I was like oh my
1:28:53go
1:28:54this is terrible yeah yeah anyway so
1:28:58like the next day he presents her with
1:29:01some images of Travis's dead body and
1:29:05she cries and whatever and he's like
1:29:07what are you crying for and she's like I
1:29:10don't know you know whatever and he's
1:29:12like were you crying when you were
1:29:13shooting
1:29:15him and she said I don't
1:29:18remember and he said were you crying
1:29:20when you were stabbing
1:29:22him and she said I don't
1:29:25remember and she said how about when you
1:29:28cut his throat were you crying
1:29:30then and she said I don't
1:29:35know and then Juan Martinez said the
1:29:38last memory you have of him is after you
1:29:40shot him
1:29:41right and jod said yes and he said you
1:29:45say you went into a fog you know you
1:29:48tell us that you went out into the
1:29:49desert you were in a fog and you needed
1:29:51to get rid of the gun
1:29:55and he said wouldn't you agree that if
1:29:57you didn't know what you were doing in
1:29:59the desert then there'd be no need for
1:30:01you to get rid of the gun mhm and she
1:30:04said I would not agree with
1:30:08that and he said why would you even
1:30:10think of taking the gun unless you
1:30:12really knew what was going on and she
1:30:14said I can only speculate because I
1:30:16don't remember taking the gun
1:30:20okay she said the next thing she
1:30:22remembers is that she was about hour
1:30:24from the Hoover Dam she had all the
1:30:26blood all over she washed it off with
1:30:28bottled water and then she left Travis
1:30:31Alexander a voicemail checking up on
1:30:35him
1:30:37mhm Lord Almighty and Juan Martinez said
1:30:41that fog is not so deep that it stops
1:30:43you from attempting to fabricate
1:30:45evidence is
1:30:47it oh he's good he is he's good and she
1:30:50said that would be correct oh [ __ ] mhm
1:30:57mhm I bet she hated that oh yeah and
1:31:00then he said all of these lies are meant
1:31:02for your benefit so that you can escape
1:31:05responsibility right and she said yeah
1:31:08so I could Escape whatever for the time
1:31:14being and then he played for her the 48
1:31:17Hours interview where she went on to
1:31:20talk about you know she wouldn't be
1:31:21convicted no jury would convict her she
1:31:23said that on both the Inside Edition
1:31:26interview and the 48 Hours interview and
1:31:28he
1:31:29said you believe you're going to be
1:31:31acquitted because you came in and told
1:31:33these stories don't
1:31:36you and jod
1:31:39said I can't predict the
1:31:44future following the end of her
1:31:47questioning so this kind of wrapped up
1:31:48her questioning jod fielded questions
1:31:50from the jury I mentioned this last
1:31:51episode like Arizona is one of only two
1:31:53states that allows the jury to submit
1:31:56questions to a witness who testifies at
1:31:59the end of their testimony so these the
1:32:00jury submits the questions the judge
1:32:02reads through them and eliminates ones
1:32:04that are not pertinent or not
1:32:06appropriate they had like I don't know
1:32:09like 160 questions oh W for
1:32:12Jody and most of them hinted at the fact
1:32:15that they didn't believe her or didn't
1:32:17find her credible yeah here's just like
1:32:19a sampling of them after you always
1:32:22lying yeah after you shot him why not
1:32:25run out of the house and she responded
1:32:27after the gun went off he lunged at me
1:32:29it's hard to describe fear I really
1:32:31thought he had intentions to kill me I
1:32:33don't remember any specifics of what
1:32:35happened after that
1:32:37point another question was did you try
1:32:39to clean up the scene and she said based
1:32:41on evidence I believe I did another
1:32:44question was why delete photos off the
1:32:46camera after you killed Travis she said
1:32:48I don't have a specific memory of
1:32:51that that's convenient why did you put
1:32:54the camera in the washing machine I
1:32:55don't have a memory of that why did you
1:32:58take the rope and gun with you I knew
1:33:00that something bad had happened and I
1:33:02felt I had done something wrong she's
1:33:04contradicting
1:33:06herself yeah uh what happened to the
1:33:09knife I don't know it didn't go to the
1:33:12car with
1:33:15me why do you have no memory of killing
1:33:18Travis I can't explain why my mind did
1:33:21what it did I really don't know
1:33:25how is it that you remember so many
1:33:26details of your sexual encounters
1:33:28including your ex-boyfriends but you do
1:33:30not remember stabbing Travis and
1:33:32dragging his
1:33:35body yeah so these questions really like
1:33:38gave a view of how the jury was seeing
1:33:40jod Aras and you think not good that's
1:33:44correct that's correct so following her
1:33:47questioning the defense put a
1:33:49psychologist on the stand Richard
1:33:51Samuels who testified for like 6 days
1:33:54and he said that jod had likely been
1:33:57suffering from acute stress at the time
1:34:00of the murder and that it had sent her
1:34:02body into fight or flight mode to defend
1:34:04herself and this caused her to stop
1:34:09retaining
1:34:11memory that explains the whole
1:34:16thing and then he diagnosed her with
1:34:18PTSD
1:34:24um so on cross-examination Juan Martinez
1:34:27tried to tear down this guy's
1:34:29credibility and he accused him of bias
1:34:31because he had previously testified that
1:34:33he felt compassion for jod Aras and so
1:34:37they like they talked about that a
1:34:39little bit and then he also questioned
1:34:41how it is that this Richard Samuels
1:34:45reached a PTSD diagnosis and so this is
1:34:48what Juan Martinez says so he Juan
1:34:50Martinez her first scores on the
1:34:52post-traumatic stress disorder scale
1:34:54confirmed the presence of PTSD right Dr
1:34:57Richard Samuels
1:34:59yes and then Samuels concluded that Aras
1:35:02suffered from Amnesia from the trauma of
1:35:04the attack Dr Richard Samuel said it's
1:35:06clear from the research a large
1:35:08percentage of individuals who are in
1:35:10such settings do not remember or have
1:35:11cloudy and foggy memories of what has
1:35:14transpired uh Juan Martinez went on to
1:35:17say how many hours did you spend with
1:35:18her and Dr Richard Samuel said between
1:35:2020 and 30 hours
1:35:24and then Juan Martinez
1:35:26said now you confirmed the presence of
1:35:31PTSD based on the
1:35:36story of The
1:35:38Intruders oh you spent 25 to 30 hours
1:35:42with her when she was still telling the
1:35:43Intruder
1:35:44story so even though you know now that
1:35:49that story was a lie can you still
1:35:51confirm the presence of PTS D and Dr
1:35:55Samuel said perhaps I should have
1:35:57readministered the
1:35:59test wow
1:36:02yeah
1:36:05mhm the next expert the defense put on
1:36:08the stand was an expert in domestic
1:36:11violence her name was Alice
1:36:14laviolet and she testified for several
1:36:16days Jennifer Wilmont questioned her on
1:36:19direct examination she said do you
1:36:21believe in your expert opinion that jod
1:36:22was a battered woman or is a battered
1:36:24woman and lolette said yes I do and
1:36:28Jennifer Wilmont said how would you
1:36:29characterize their relationship at this
1:36:31point in time given your expertise in
1:36:34the area and she said I would call it a
1:36:36domestically abusive relationship and
1:36:39Jennifer Wilmont said does he call her
1:36:40names like [ __ ] and lolet said yes and
1:36:44does he call her [ __ ] and laet said yes
1:36:47he's grabbed her by the shoulders he's
1:36:49thrown her to the ground um and told her
1:36:51she wasn't going to leave he's all of
1:36:54these things that are domestic
1:36:56violence on cross-
1:36:58examination Juan Martinez this woman and
1:37:02Juan Martinez sparred verbally like they
1:37:04went at it Juan Martinez
1:37:07said uh you are uh in fact biased in
1:37:11favor of the defendant aren't you
1:37:15oh and Lavalette said I don't believe
1:37:19I'm biased you're mischaracterizing what
1:37:21I do Mr Martinez M and he said one of
1:37:25the questions here is why you felt the
1:37:27need to coddle her and lelet responded
1:37:31Mr Martinez are you angry with
1:37:33[Music]
1:37:34me and he said ma'am is that relevant to
1:37:38you is that important to you does that
1:37:39make any difference to your evaluation
1:37:41whether or not the prosecutor is
1:37:45angry and Lavette said if you were in my
1:37:48group I would ask you to take a timeout
1:37:51Mr Martinez
1:37:56oh so after several days of kind of this
1:38:00sparring back and forth the prosecution
1:38:02was able to get her to admit that Travis
1:38:05Alexander was actually extremely afraid
1:38:07of jod Aras mhm Juan Martinez said isn't
1:38:11it true that Mr Alexander was extremely
1:38:14afraid of the defendant based on her
1:38:15stalking
1:38:17behavior and Lavalette responded he was
1:38:20afraid of her yes
1:38:23and Martinez asked her if that was
1:38:25because of her stalking behavior and La
1:38:27Violet responded that's
1:38:29correct So based on her expert analysis
1:38:32of their Communications and their
1:38:34relationship she believed
1:38:37that Travis Alexander was afraid of jod
1:38:40Aras
1:38:42yeah the jury asked dozens of questions
1:38:46of this expert like more than they asked
1:38:48Jody oh I didn't realize so I thought
1:38:51that the jury could just ask questions
1:38:53of the defendant anyone who testified
1:38:55wow so they had more questions for her
1:38:58than they had for jod and these
1:39:02questions showed that they were super
1:39:04skeptical of Her diagnosis that Jody had
1:39:08been abused by Travis one juror asked
1:39:12her why she often looked at Jodie across
1:39:15the courtroom and
1:39:17smiled and she responded I've actually
1:39:21tried to avoid looking at Miss arel
1:39:25I think that's a really weird
1:39:29response I don't know I don't know I
1:39:32don't know how to respond to that see
1:39:34this is making me kind of understand why
1:39:35Jory shouldn't ask that's such a stupid
1:39:39question so the most telling question
1:39:42asked of this expert witness was if a
1:39:46female could abuse batter and terrorize
1:39:50a man to the point of killing him
1:39:53mhm and La Violet responded Yes women
1:39:57can be
1:40:00perpetrators the defense then rested
1:40:02their case and the prosecution began
1:40:04their rebuttal phase so they put a
1:40:06clinical psychologist on the stand who
1:40:08testified um that she had found no no
1:40:12evidence that Travis Alexander had ever
1:40:14abused jod Aras and there was no
1:40:17evidence to her of PTSD or Amnesia in
1:40:20jod Aras she testified that the long
1:40:24stretches of time that jod claimed to
1:40:26have experienced were actually
1:40:28inconsistent with traumatic Amnesia
1:40:31associated with PTSD she said that
1:40:34manifests typically in shorter gaps in
1:40:37your memory H
1:40:41okay she actually went on to say that it
1:40:43was her belief that jod suffered from
1:40:45borderline personality
1:40:48disorder and that she showed signs of
1:40:50immaturity and an unstable sense of of
1:40:56identity she said people who suffer from
1:40:59such often have a terrified feeling of
1:41:02being abandoned by
1:41:09others that would certainly line up it
1:41:12sure
1:41:13would in closing arguments on May 4th
1:41:16Jody's defense argued that the
1:41:18premeditation theory just didn't make
1:41:21sense well yes it did no what happened
1:41:25in that moment in time that relationship
1:41:27it was a relationship of chaos and it
1:41:29ended in chaos there's nothing about
1:41:32what happened on June 4th in that
1:41:33bathroom that looks planned what about
1:41:37the gun no what about gas can no no
1:41:43no here's what happened Jody simply
1:41:47snapped oh so at this point they've
1:41:51basically given up the self-defense
1:41:53claim and they're like she snapped and
1:41:56she's uh guilty of manslaughter and
1:41:58nothing
1:42:01more and then Kirk nury went on to do
1:42:05the thing that I love he's like you know
1:42:07what this case is not about whether or
1:42:09not you like jod Aras oh yeah you know
1:42:12what nine days out of 10 I don't like
1:42:15jod Aras mhm thanks she's the biggest
1:42:18piece of [ __ ] I've ever seen that's
1:42:21right uh the prosecution's closing
1:42:24argument you know they talked about
1:42:26their Theory blah BL and then Juan
1:42:29Martinez described to like the extent
1:42:33and the variety of Travis Alexander's
1:42:35wom this is his final thing before the
1:42:38the jury was handed the case to
1:42:40deliberate he said there is no evidence
1:42:43that Travis ever laid a hand on her ever
1:42:47nothing indicates that this is anything
1:42:50less than a Slaughter there was no way
1:42:53to appease this woman who just wouldn't
1:42:57leave him
1:43:02alone the jury deliberated for 15 hours
1:43:06and they
1:43:08found jod guilty of first-degree murder
1:43:12she cried when she was found
1:43:15guilty so following the
1:43:19conviction also like the crowds outside
1:43:22the
1:43:23Courthouse went nuts like the whole
1:43:25world went crazy you went nuts I sure
1:43:28did I remember when the verdict when it
1:43:30was announced at the jury um had come
1:43:32back with a verdict I went home so I
1:43:34could watch it live on T I was at
1:43:37work I was like I got to see this
1:43:39emergency it's an emergency at
1:43:42home so the next step would be an
1:43:45aggravation phase so this is where the
1:43:48prosecution is like hey these are the
1:43:50aggravating circumstances this is why we
1:43:52feel this this case requires the death
1:43:55penalty and so then the jury has to be
1:43:57like oh yeah we totally agree or no we
1:43:59don't in order to seek the death penalty
1:44:01and so they did this
1:44:03and basically the only evidence they put
1:44:06forward was the evidence of a medical
1:44:07examiner who talked about how brutal
1:44:09Travis Alexander's death was Juan
1:44:12Martinez showed photos of Travis
1:44:14Alexander's body to the jury and
1:44:18pictures of the crime scene and then he
1:44:20took a 2minute moment of silence to
1:44:23illustrate how long it would have taken
1:44:25Travis Alexander to die
1:44:28oh
1:44:30yeah and um after 3 hours of
1:44:33deliberation the jury determined that
1:44:35jod Aras would be eligible for the death
1:44:38penalty so then came the penalty phase
1:44:41and the prosecution called Travis
1:44:44Alexander's family members to give
1:44:46Victim Impact statements and it was
1:44:49super emotional his sisters testified
1:44:51about you know what
1:44:54what this meant for them and how he
1:44:56missed out on having a life and how he
1:44:59wouldn't have children and he wouldn't
1:45:00be a part of their children's lives and
1:45:03yeah super super emotional and then Jody
1:45:06Aras offered her
1:45:09allocution so this is where she talks
1:45:11about basically why she should get a
1:45:15life sentence rather than a death
1:45:17sentence so following her conviction she
1:45:20had actually done like an interview
1:45:23with [ __ ] local media and was like
1:45:26actually I would just prefer it if they
1:45:28put me to death because I believe death
1:45:30is the final freedom and I'd just rather
1:45:33have my freedom as soon as possible sure
1:45:36Jan MH and so then during her allocution
1:45:39allocution she got up and she was like I
1:45:42know that you guys have heard me say
1:45:45previously that I would prefer the death
1:45:46penalty but I can't stand here before
1:45:49you and say that I mean that I would ask
1:45:52you to give me life because there are
1:45:55things that I can do with my life in
1:45:58prison and she said as a survivor of
1:46:01domestic violence and she paused and
1:46:05said I know many of you don't believe
1:46:07that I'm a Survivor of domestic violence
1:46:09but I am and I can start programs in
1:46:12prison to help other survivors and then
1:46:14she like unfolded this t-shirt that she'
1:46:17made that said Survivor on it and she's
1:46:19like I could make these t-shirts and I
1:46:21could sell them proceeds could go
1:46:25to victims of domestic abuse it was so
1:46:28[ __ ] weird the jury has already told
1:46:30you they don't believe your story like
1:46:31that's what your conviction means but
1:46:33what about those t-shirts h no she's
1:46:35going to raise money for victims of
1:46:37domestic
1:46:39violence I mean sadly I think there
1:46:41would be a really big market for
1:46:44domestic violence Survivor t-shirts made
1:46:47by jod Aras yeah oh for sure her art was
1:46:50selling online by this point her prison
1:46:52art good God do you want to know her
1:46:54next thing that she would do in prison
1:46:56yes please she would grow her hair out
1:46:59and donate it to Locks of
1:47:03Love You know what honestly she would
1:47:05have been better off with reverse
1:47:07psychology I think yeah put me to death
1:47:09it's what I want yeah yeah I agree rumor
1:47:13has it you don't have the nuts to put me
1:47:15to death yeah
1:47:18yep yeah so the jury deliver liberated
1:47:24and
1:47:25deliberated and
1:47:27deliberated and
1:47:29deliberated and finally they told the
1:47:32judge that they were
1:47:34deadlocked they couldn't reach a
1:47:36decision wow and so the judge declared a
1:47:40mistrial only of the penalty phase okay
1:47:44but the jury was
1:47:46devastated they didn't know that's what
1:47:49would happen if they what they think
1:47:51would happen I don't know like all right
1:47:53you I'll take over from here yeah so
1:47:55they said they didn't understand that a
1:47:57mistrial would be declared if they if
1:48:00they remained deadlock so they were
1:48:01split 8 to four in favor of the death
1:48:04penalty so a mistrial was declared and
1:48:09so then a new jury was seated and a new
1:48:13penalty phase was done this took a
1:48:15couple of years before they got like a
1:48:17year and a half until they got to that
1:48:19same you know same story same exact
1:48:23process whatever like hear it all again
1:48:24no um and this time the jury
1:48:28deliberated and
1:48:30deliberated and
1:48:32deliberated and they were deadlock
1:48:36too this time they split 11 to one oh in
1:48:40favor of the death penalty and these
1:48:43jurors were pissed they said the hold
1:48:46out had an
1:48:47agenda to not murder somebody yeah
1:48:50exactly I mean and so in Arizona you got
1:48:53two chances to go for the death penalty
1:48:55and if it doesn't happen it gets taken
1:48:57off the table and so finally in April of
1:49:002015 judge Sher Stevens sentenced jod
1:49:04Aras to life in prison without the
1:49:07possibility of
1:49:10parole so Jodie has appealed her
1:49:13sentence and her conviction claiming
1:49:16prosecutorial misconduct because Juan
1:49:20Martinez was really aggressive Rive and
1:49:24had some kind of unique ways of arguing
1:49:26things so an appeals court looked over
1:49:29this in October of 2019 and in March of
1:49:322020 they upheld her conviction and
1:49:36sentence however they did agree there
1:49:40was prosecutorial misconduct but instead
1:49:43they said it didn't impact the outcome
1:49:46of the case oh the the evidence is there
1:49:50the proof is there it wouldn't have
1:49:52changed outcome so your conviction
1:49:53stands your sentence stands however we
1:49:57are turning those concerns over to the
1:50:00bar oh [ __ ] of
1:50:06Arizona so the these complaints were s
1:50:09sent down to the Arizona Bar
1:50:14Association and in 2020 did he get
1:50:17disbar Juan Martinez was disbarred so
1:50:20not directly not only because of this
1:50:22were also some sexual misconduct
1:50:24allegations against him some sexual
1:50:26harassment allegations against him from
1:50:28the from the prosecutor's office there
1:50:30was all kinds of stuff and they were
1:50:32like you know what why don't you just
1:50:34give us that license
1:50:37yeah okay our other main player in this
1:50:39case Kirk
1:50:41nury he says this case ruined his life
1:50:46really yes so he as if you'll recall
1:50:50early on he asked to be taken off this
1:50:53case he did not Vibe with Jody Aras
1:50:56right he actually quit the public
1:50:58defender office because he thought that
1:51:01would bolster his request to get taken
1:51:04off the case it did not Jody Aras
1:51:07specifically wrote to the judge and is
1:51:09like I need Kirk nury and no one else
1:51:12and this is what I want and he was
1:51:15required to stay on against his
1:51:19will he said the public
1:51:23um perception of him following this
1:51:25trial he became like the most hated man
1:51:28in America because it seemed like he
1:51:30believed Jody's claims that Travis was a
1:51:35pedophile and abusive while no one else
1:51:38believed those claims and there was no
1:51:40proof of them and he said he didn't
1:51:43believe them he actually tried to
1:51:45disprove them so that he wouldn't have
1:51:48to support that defense but he was
1:51:50unable to and so ethically he had to to
1:51:55support the defense that his client
1:51:57wanted to put
1:52:00forward he said he was manipulated by
1:52:03jod the entire time she was impossible
1:52:05to work
1:52:08with and he wrote a book about all of
1:52:12this after and he too has been disbarred
1:52:15because of his tellall
1:52:18book so he was actually just going to
1:52:21get his license according to his he was
1:52:23actually just going to get his his law
1:52:25license suspended for 3 years and he
1:52:27said you know what you take it I have no
1:52:30interest in
1:52:32ever working with the law ever again she
1:52:35has taken the love of it from me okay he
1:52:39actually got cancer during the course of
1:52:41the trial and he said it was his he
1:52:43believes it was his body's physical
1:52:46response to all of the stress that he
1:52:48went
1:52:49through defending jod Aras
1:52:57yeah and that's the story of the trial
1:53:01of jod Aras and I'm [ __ ] done with
1:53:03this case and I'm never reading about it
1:53:05ever
1:53:07again what if she does something
1:53:10new what if she makes that donation to
1:53:13lots of lots of
1:53:16love what if some kid gets that horribly
1:53:20bleached hair
1:53:23that's been so
1:53:25damaged oh [ __ ] my I have I have
1:53:28summited
1:53:29Everest Brandy well done holy [ __ ] very
1:53:34well done thank you Brandy this might be
1:53:37the meest one we've ever done oh my gosh
1:53:40that trial was real long sure
1:53:45was woo are you ready do you know
1:53:48anything about my case no okay
1:53:54do I know anything about an eyewitness
1:53:55no I called dibs on it or yeah I didn't
1:53:58know that name oh you didn't pay any
1:54:00damn attention to me I didn't did you
1:54:02like the sexy pick I sent
1:54:07you
1:54:10everyone if you're boring and a friend
1:54:12does you a favor you say thank
1:54:15you if you're cool you take a super up
1:54:20close pick of the crack between your two
1:54:23fingers and you you and you tell him
1:54:26it's a
1:54:27sexy you didn't know mm- you were like
1:54:30is that top of the butt crack no I knew
1:54:34immediately top of the
1:54:36vine you had no
1:54:38idea anyway thank you to Fierce Mama
1:54:41Lama in the Discord for suggesting this
1:54:43case and giving me all the sources
1:54:46wonderful shout outs to an episode of
1:54:48American
1:54:50Justice uh an episode of d line which I
1:54:53read but did not watch oh pulled a real
1:54:55Brandy did you also that crime watch
1:54:58show with Chris Hansen yhm also Crime
1:55:01Library yeah library
1:55:04libr and uh yeah basically are you even
1:55:07a true crime show if you haven't covered
1:55:09this case you're not cuz there was a 48
1:55:11Hours episode I just ignored it oh wow
1:55:13okay that's right gave it the cold
1:55:16shoulder picture it the year is 1963 and
1:55:20we're in a cinder block building in
1:55:22mcville Georgia a woman is delivering a
1:55:26baby with the help from the town's only
1:55:28doctor Dr Thomas Hicks a wonderful man
1:55:32who was truly doing the lurds work
1:55:35absolutely and since I've seen labor
1:55:38depicted on TV I know that there's some
1:55:40screaming and grunting and sweat and
1:55:42it's all over in about 2 minutes Randy
1:55:45can you confirm it's incorrect four
1:55:48minutes my
1:55:50mistake as soon as the baby was born the
1:55:52doctor took the baby out back where a
1:55:54couple from Ohio was waiting eagerly in
1:55:57the parking lot car still running they
1:56:00were so excited they're about to have a
1:56:02baby they handed Dr Hicks $1,000 and he
1:56:06handed them a little girl who they named
1:56:08Melinda and Dr Hicks gave them a birth
1:56:11certificate with both of them listed as
1:56:13the baby's parents don't make faces I'm
1:56:16telling you a heartwarming T no this is
1:56:18somebody else's baby there are you not
1:56:21familiar with how adoption works it's
1:56:23not how adoption works there was no
1:56:26record of the baby's birth parents
1:56:27because paperwork is
1:56:29boring uh and so the couple drove home
1:56:32to Ohio where they welcomed the baby
1:56:34girl into their home oh
1:56:36Jesus everyone
1:56:39on on the bonus episode which you can
1:56:42access on patreon at the $5
1:56:44level I teas Brandy I told her she
1:56:48always says that they welcome the baby
1:56:50into the home she CL claims M that she
1:56:53doesn't say the in the home part yeah
1:56:56she is full of [ __ ] please come forward
1:56:59everyone people have weighed in on this
1:57:01they say it's the Mandela effect no one
1:57:05person has come forward and agreed with
1:57:07me and I'm that's why I'm saying this on
1:57:08the regular
1:57:10feed
1:57:12okay Brandy this may surprise you but
1:57:14this is not how adoption is supposed to
1:57:19work but you know Dr Hicks wasn't your
1:57:22standard doctor he liked to think
1:57:24outside the bun oh like Taco Bell that's
1:57:28right mhm bun and box I mean it just
1:57:30sounds anyway in fact for years from the
1:57:341940s through the 1960s Dr Hicks sold
1:57:38approximately 200 babies to couples who
1:57:41didn't want to mess with interviews uh
1:57:44background checks okay but where are the
1:57:46babies coming from is she stealing
1:57:48people's
1:57:50babies good good question okay and
1:57:54you're being kind of nosy okay he's a
1:57:56doctor so please don't he telling people
1:57:57their babies died and then oh boy you
1:58:01you've got a real dark imagination don't
1:58:04you here's how he did it mm Dr Hicks put
1:58:08up ads for illegal abortion services and
1:58:10like phone booths under bridges in bus
1:58:14stations and so desperate women would
1:58:16come to him for an abortion and he did
1:58:18provide
1:58:20abortions sometimes MH other times if
1:58:23the woman was really desperate he would
1:58:25talk her into carrying the pregnancy to
1:58:27term and he was like so sweet about the
1:58:29whole thing cuz there was nothing in
1:58:31this for him he would just pay for the
1:58:34women to stay at a nearby hotel and in
1:58:36the meantime he'd focus on finding
1:58:38someone anyone really who wanted to
1:58:42adopt a baby he charged anywhere from
1:58:45$200 to $10,000 for the service Jesus
1:58:49it's a little like we're expected to get
1:58:51six to 14 in of snow tomorrow the price
1:58:55really depended on what he thought the
1:58:56couple could
1:58:58afford sometimes the pregnant women knew
1:59:01what they were getting into they knew
1:59:03there were they were placing their
1:59:05babies for adoption and there wouldn't
1:59:06be any kind of paper trail and you know
1:59:08maybe that's what some of them wanted MH
1:59:11um other times they gave birth and Dr
1:59:14Hicks left the room with the newborn and
1:59:16then he came back and was like bad news
1:59:18your baby
1:59:19died uhhuh so just as I see you
1:59:22suspected mhm oh my gosh Dr Hicks did
1:59:27this for decades and his little human
1:59:30trafficking ring stayed a secret for
1:59:33decades but in the '90s that secret
1:59:36began to
1:59:37unravel some of the children who'd been
1:59:39adopted from the Hicks Clinic I mean I'm
1:59:42putting that in quotation marks this oh
1:59:45I'm sorry am I boring you I know it's
1:59:47just I'm sorry I just talked for 3 hours
1:59:51and it's getting quite late oh my God
1:59:53it's almost 11 yeah Brandy I apologize
1:59:55for my yawn it's not in regards to your
1:59:57story I promise listen if I have to sex
2:00:01it up I will I'll take one tit
2:00:03out but I won't do the second one well
2:00:07exactly you're not going to yawn when I
2:00:08and it's so warm in here it is warm in
2:00:10here I mean I could fall asleep right
2:00:12now it's really nice we got that candle
2:00:14going mhm it's kind of romantic with the
2:00:17you got one tit out
2:00:20candles what more do you want
2:00:22what meanwhile you're not showing me
2:00:25[ __ ] this stolen baby talk getting me
2:00:27all hot and
2:00:29bothered so some of these children who'd
2:00:32been adopted from the clinic were told
2:00:34by their adopted parents hey just so you
2:00:36know you aren't our biological child we
2:00:38adopted you and that's exactly what
2:00:40happened with baby Melinda when she was
2:00:43like 10 years old her mother Judy told
2:00:45Melinda that she was adopted and that
2:00:47her adoption had been
2:00:49unusual and Melinda was curious person
2:00:53and as she grew up she became even more
2:00:55Curious she wanted to know more about
2:00:57her birth parents and whether she had
2:00:59any biological
2:01:01siblings she also wanted to know more
2:01:03about her adoption
2:01:06process Melinda didn't yet know it but
2:01:09she was what is commonly referred to now
2:01:12as a Hicks baby mhm um probably a better
2:01:16term is a Hicks Survivor but yeah tomato
2:01:18tomato yeah so in 1997 a woman woman
2:01:22named Jane Blasio wrote A Memoir called
2:01:25taken at Birth colon stolen babies
2:01:28hidden lies in my journey to finding
2:01:31home it was about her experience as a
2:01:33Hicks baby and her investigation into Dr
2:01:35Hicks the story became big news by this
2:01:39point Dr Hicks was dead in fact he lost
2:01:42his medical license in 1964 because he'd
2:01:45been caught performing illegal
2:01:48abortions yeah mhm
2:01:53and he died in 1972 when he was 83 oh my
2:01:59gosh he still doing abortions like 10
2:02:02years before that I know it's you know
2:02:06almost admirable right oh my
2:02:09gosh into knew his
2:02:1270s I'd be pretty scared I mean it's
2:02:15scary enough to get an illegal abortion
2:02:17I'm sure let alone
2:02:20exactly a geriatric
2:02:24man so Jane and a few of the other Hicks
2:02:27babies including Melinda became focused
2:02:29on getting the truth out about what Dr
2:02:31Hicks had done and also wondering what
2:02:34role DNA might play in finding their
2:02:36birth families
2:02:40yeah Brandy is also curious I am so as
2:02:44Melinda became an adult she eventually
2:02:47became a wife and a mother and she
2:02:48wanted desperately to find her birth
2:02:50parents by this point Melinda had been
2:02:52married to her husband Clarence for 17
2:02:55years they'd been high school
2:02:56sweethearts they'd gotten married at 18
2:02:59and now they had two boys whom they'd
2:03:01welcomed into the
2:03:04home mhm okay they welcomed the first
2:03:07one they were dicks to the second
2:03:10one her desire to meet her birth parents
2:03:14had nothing to do with her feelings
2:03:15about her adopted family she loved her
2:03:17family she had a sister April who she
2:03:19was very close to she had an Ador
2:03:22six-year-old niece named Brooke and
2:03:24Melinda was super close with her mom
2:03:27Judy and Judy was fully supportive of
2:03:30Melinda's quest to find her birth
2:03:32parents they did media interviews
2:03:34together and in 1998 they went on the
2:03:36myy PO show together you are not her
2:03:41mother is that what he said cuz that'd
2:03:43be pretty rude and she's like okay
2:03:45adopted parents are I am her mother I am
2:03:49her
2:03:50mother more learned a lot that day uhhuh
2:03:53it was a very special
2:03:55episode for the taping Melinda wore a
2:03:58leopard print skirt with a black blazer
2:04:02featuring what's this a leopard print
2:04:05collar I love I Lov the '90s they were
2:04:08full of those little matching little
2:04:10matchy matches uh Judy wore all black
2:04:14snoozefest okay sounds hot to
2:04:17me you're wearing gray today which I was
2:04:20like oh my you said I'm sh anything
2:04:23bry's
2:04:24really everyone she has one tit
2:04:29out we just frankly what you owe me I
2:04:32have one hot shoulder
2:04:35exposed seems inappropriate we should
2:04:38really have a dress code for this
2:04:40podcast oh yeah you could have your tit
2:04:42out but my tiny exposed shoulder is
2:04:47inappropriate it's a matter of taste
2:04:49Brandy
2:04:51it's a very classy tit and a very [ __ ]
2:04:54shoulder classy tit it has a top hat
2:05:01on what if you
2:05:03had top hats covering both nips top no a
2:05:07top hat and then mon googly
2:05:12eyes a lot of great
2:05:17ideas the Mory show hadn't aired yet but
2:05:20Melinda and Judy were excited for it to
2:05:22come out are you still
2:05:26laughing you're googly I did I
2:05:29am Melinda kind of needed a win you know
2:05:34she and her husband Clarence had been
2:05:35having some problems over the years it
2:05:38wasn't uncommon for them to separate for
2:05:40a while usually like once a year Melinda
2:05:43would be like that's it I'm going to
2:05:44stay with my mom for a few days and she
2:05:47would she'd go to her mom's house for a
2:05:49few days and tell her mom what was going
2:05:50on but Melinda and Clarence always
2:05:55reconciled but the relationship between
2:05:57Judy and Clarence was kind of
2:06:00tense and when the arguments between
2:06:02Clarence and Melinda became physical
2:06:05that was the final straw Judy was like
2:06:07[ __ ] this guy except she for sure didn't
2:06:10say [ __ ] this
2:06:11guy send this gentleman straight to
2:06:17Hades but
2:06:20Melinda yeah I'm not I'm not playing in
2:06:23that sandbox with
2:06:27you but Melinda and Clarence stayed
2:06:30together then came June 6th
2:06:341998 the Mory Show featuring Melinda and
2:06:37Judy still hadn't aired yet and one of
2:06:39the boys was sick so Melinda was taking
2:06:41care of him and meanwhile Clarence was
2:06:44drinking beer and doing chores no
2:06:47helpful mhm Clarence drank eight or 10
2:06:51beers over the course of the day as he
2:06:52did his
2:06:54chores yep a lot of beers yeah I don't
2:06:58know how good a job he was doing on
2:07:00those chores if you're 10 beers deep hey
2:07:04eight or 10 eight or 10 I'm my mistake
2:07:07and then that night he went out to a
2:07:09bunch of different bars
2:07:12what he'd only had eight or 10
2:07:17beers he stayed out until like 2:30 a.m.
2:07:21drinking
2:07:22drinking having a good time if I had
2:07:24eight or 10 beers I wouldn't be making
2:07:27it to
2:07:30a you sound like a real loser brand you
2:07:34seem like the kind of girl who has a
2:07:36little bit of Fireball and puked in her
2:07:38front
2:07:39yard okay Clarance was a champion all
2:07:42right okay so you know he's drinking
2:07:45drinking having a good time and then he
2:07:47came
2:07:48home Melinda was up when he came home
2:07:51she was still taking care of their sick
2:07:53child yeah and you're like you [ __ ]
2:07:55you've been out at the bar and I'm here
2:07:56taking care of our sick kid yep I'm
2:07:59going to my mother's as Clarence
2:08:02stumbled off to bed at around 3:15
2:08:04Melinda said hey thanks for all your
2:08:06help today she didn't really that's just
2:08:09the kind of [ __ ] that I would
2:08:11say oh my gosh I was like good for
2:08:16her you ever pull that passive
2:08:18aggressive [ __ ] hey hey yeah really
2:08:21appreciate
2:08:23that oh I I wrote on your to-do list to
2:08:25drink 10 beers today and you did it to
2:08:29check that one good job
2:08:32thanks really went above and beyond when
2:08:34you went to all those
2:08:36bars so you know Melinda stayed up for
2:08:38the rest of of the night with their son
2:08:40yeah she maybe dozed off for a few
2:08:43minutes but other than that she was
2:08:44awake all
2:08:46night and the next morning police showed
2:08:49up at their
2:08:50home why
2:08:52I'm not going to say no tell
2:08:56us did you color your eyebrows I did can
2:08:59you tell it looks so good thank you okay
2:09:02so last time when I colored them with my
2:09:05you know online kit uh I went too hard
2:09:10looked a little like Bert uh I I scaled
2:09:12it back a bit it looks they look amazing
2:09:15thank you are you going to seeing lone
2:09:17Stars amazed to me now no because of my
2:09:21glorious one tit out and my wonderful
2:09:24eyebrows I'm amazed by your googly
2:09:28tit baby when those googly eyes
2:09:32meet feeling inside
2:09:36me Bry we have no time okay we have no
2:09:40time I like how you said I'm sorry when
2:09:43I was the one who
2:09:49was so the police showed up at their
2:09:51home
2:09:52and the police arrested 15-year-old
2:09:54Clarence Jr for the murder of his
2:09:57grandmother Judy
2:09:59Johnson and then they were like oh wait
2:10:03hold on your Clarence Jr and then they
2:10:06were like my gosh wrong one we have fun
2:10:11don't we they weren't really laughing
2:10:20Brandy and and they took the Cuffs off
2:10:22of him and arrested Clarence Elin senior
2:10:25for the murder of his mother-in-law oh
2:10:27my gosh and that was how Melinda found
2:10:30out that her mother had been
2:10:32murdered holy [ __ ]
2:10:37mhm and as she later found out her mom
2:10:40hadn't just been murdered she'd been
2:10:44beaten with a blunt object she'd been
2:10:47raped sodomized and strangled her jaw
2:10:51nose skull and collar bone were all
2:10:55broken oh my gosh yeah it had been
2:10:59terrible and the eyewitness to the crime
2:11:03six-year-old Brooke Melinda's niece had
2:11:07already told investigators that Uncle
2:11:09Clarence did
2:11:12it Melinda was devasted yeah and so
2:11:19confused Clarence told the police hey
2:11:22hey I'll help in any way I can and they
2:11:24were
2:11:25like we don't need
2:11:28help investigators were pretty pleased
2:11:30with themselves Clarence had committed a
2:11:32terrible crime and boom like a few hours
2:11:34later they'd caught
2:11:38him nothing like the feeling of getting
2:11:40a bad guy off the streets oh
2:11:45no they were right to feel relieved what
2:11:48had happened at Judy Johnson's home the
2:11:50night before had been
2:11:52horrific this is this is rough um Judy's
2:11:56six-year-old granddaughter Brooke had
2:11:58always spent just a ton of time with
2:11:59Judy she called her Mayma and Judy
2:12:02babysat Brooke after school and Brooke
2:12:04slep slept over at her house a lot
2:12:07Brooke loved spending time with her
2:12:10grandma they like to play dice together
2:12:13and watch TV and she was even friends
2:12:17with some of the kids in her Grandma's
2:12:19neighborhood so on June 6th the night
2:12:22before the crime Brooke and Judy went to
2:12:24a birthday party together and afterward
2:12:26they decided that Brooke should stay
2:12:28over so they went back to Judy's house
2:12:31they watched Judy's favorite TV show I
2:12:33don't know what it was kills me that I
2:12:35don't know yeah and they went to bed did
2:12:37you even do any
2:12:42research I'll be honest I'm phoning this
2:12:44whole
2:12:48thing so Judy fell asleep on the living
2:12:50room couch and she gave broke her
2:12:55bed and sometime between 2:30 and 5:30
2:13:00a.m. someone got into the home and
2:13:03attacked and killed
2:13:04Judy Brooke had been sleeping in her
2:13:07Grandma's bed as I said and she woke up
2:13:09to the sounds of a struggle she got up
2:13:12and went to the kitchen and saw a man in
2:13:14there attacking her grandma she was
2:13:18scared so she ran back into the bedroom
2:13:20pulled the covers up over her and
2:13:22pretended to be
2:13:24asleep presumably after the attacker
2:13:27killed Judy he came into the room where
2:13:30Brooke was sleeping and he hit her in
2:13:31the
2:13:32face the blow knocked her
2:13:35unconscious and then he raped Brooke
2:13:37with a blunt object and strangled her
2:13:41and left her for dead oh my
2:13:45God but Brooke didn't die she regained
2:13:49Consciousness a few hours later
2:13:51she woke up covered in blood found her
2:13:54grandmother dead in the living room and
2:13:56as soon as she was able broke called a
2:13:58family friend I'm sorry I've got
2:13:59goosebumps this is just such a horrible
2:14:01story oh my
2:14:03gosh she got the woman's answering
2:14:05machine and here's the message that she
2:14:09left June I'm sorry to tell you this but
2:14:13my grandma died and I need somebody to
2:14:15get my mom for me I'm all alone somebody
2:14:18killed my grandma now please would you
2:14:20get a hold of me as soon as as you can
2:14:22bye oh my gosh it is heartbreaking
2:14:27yeah and
2:14:29also I mean kind of impressive that this
2:14:33little six-year-old girl she picks up
2:14:35the phone she knows she needs to get
2:14:36help yes after she left that message she
2:14:40went to a neighbor's house still in her
2:14:42night gown covered head to toe in blood
2:14:46she had a huge bruise on her face she
2:14:49told the neighbor Tanya Brazil that
2:14:52someone had killed her
2:14:54grandma Tanya
2:14:56Newbrook her three daughters played with
2:14:59broke quite a bit and so Tanya was like
2:15:01okay just wait on the porch I'm cooking
2:15:03breakfast for my kids and 45 minutes
2:15:06later when Tanya was finished cooking
2:15:08breakfast she came back out on the porch
2:15:10and drove Brooke home are you kidding me
2:15:14what she didn't get the police
2:15:17immediately she was in the middle of
2:15:19cooking breakfast for her kids m no I
2:15:21don't [ __ ] care there's a bloody
2:15:24six-year-old on your porch and she said
2:15:26her grandmother's been murdered what the
2:15:28[ __ ] are you doing cooking breakfast for
2:15:31no okay you don't just interrupt Meal
2:15:33Time yes you do for a bloody
2:15:36six-year-old who just says her
2:15:37grandmother was murdered yeah do you
2:15:39maybe invite her in too yeah or do you
2:15:42keep the bloody six-year-old on your
2:15:44front porch for 45
2:15:48minutes yeah
2:15:52oh my gosh
2:15:58mhm Tanya asked Brooke some questions
2:16:01about what happened and Brooke told her
2:16:03that the man who attacked her and her
2:16:04grandma looked like her uncle
2:16:08Clarence so they got to Brook's house
2:16:10and April Sutton Brook's mom answered
2:16:12the door and was horrified there stood
2:16:16her little daughter wearing her mother's
2:16:18blood soaked night gown and Brook said
2:16:20Mayma is dead oh my gosh April asked her
2:16:24who did it and Brook said someone April
2:16:28asked who and Brook said
2:16:33Clarence April was shocked she couldn't
2:16:35believe it her husband went to his
2:16:38mother-in-law's house and he called 911
2:16:40from the house crying he told the
2:16:43dispatcher my mother-in-law has been
2:16:45stabbed my little girl spent the night
2:16:47here and the neighbor just brought her
2:16:48home and said that my mother-in-law was
2:16:50laying on the floor dead and I come up
2:16:52here and she's laying on the
2:16:54floor so police arrived on the scene
2:16:57they took Brooke in for medical
2:16:59treatment and at that time they asked
2:17:01her who'd done
2:17:03this she said she didn't see but later
2:17:07said Uncle
2:17:08Clarence they asked how do you know it
2:17:11was your uncle and she said it looked
2:17:14like
2:17:16him so with Clarence under
2:17:19arrest and Judy dead and poor Brooke
2:17:21trying to recover Melinda called her
2:17:24sister April and was like what is
2:17:26happening Clarence was home with
2:17:29me you know Clarence you know he
2:17:32wouldn't do
2:17:35this April was in a horrible position it
2:17:38was very hard to imagine that Clarence
2:17:40could do this but she said being a
2:17:43mother you have to believe your children
2:17:45mhm 5 days later at Judy's funeral the
2:17:48Two Sisters sat together and held hands
2:17:51and afterward they said
2:17:53goodbye they didn't speak for the next
2:17:55three and a half years oh my
2:17:58gosh Melinda was standing by her husband
2:18:00and April was standing by her child
2:18:04yeah tell me about this
2:18:07neighbor she got a
2:18:09husband no
2:18:13okay all right continue on she's got a
2:18:16common law husband
2:18:19oh see look a little bit like
2:18:23Clarence I mean some could say that [ __ ]
2:18:26okay
2:18:27continue so funny that that's where you
2:18:31went so
2:18:34funny so investigators collected more
2:18:37than a hundred items from the crime
2:18:39scene blood samples hair samples I mean
2:18:41it was a terrible scene there was a lot
2:18:43there MH and uh none of it matched
2:18:48Clarence the kind of limited rud DNA
2:18:51testing they had at the time couldn't
2:18:53link Clarence to the crime
2:18:56scene they searched the elin's
2:18:59home H didn't find anything
2:19:02incriminating there either but whatever
2:19:05they had Brook's
2:19:06statement that would have to be enough
2:19:09so Clarence was charged with aggravated
2:19:11murder and rape and prosecutor Michael
2:19:14Carol decided to seek the death
2:19:17penalty clarence's trial began on May
2:19:2020th 1999 in acan Ohio you look no I
2:19:25hate it horrified uh the prosecution
2:19:27contended that Clarence raped and
2:19:29murdered his mother-in-law because he
2:19:31wanted her to stay out of his
2:19:33marriage you know how that is no
2:19:38what we've all been there oh my
2:19:42gosh in-laws getting nosy the only thing
2:19:46you can do rape and murder I wish there
2:19:49was a better way there just not oh my
2:19:54gosh yeah so on the night of the crime
2:19:56Clarence drove in a drunken rage to his
2:19:59mother-in-law's house he didn't expect
2:20:01the child to be there he's probably
2:20:03surprised by her but you know he raped
2:20:04her and beat her up
2:20:07too no this is
2:20:10terrible yeah it's terrible he did this
2:20:12no this is a terrible case like
2:20:16this okay you heard the motive solid
2:20:19solid like a
2:20:21Rock the prosecution called some of
2:20:24Judy's friends to the stand who were
2:20:25like yeah Judy and Clarence you know
2:20:27they didn't always like each
2:20:29other Tanya testified about Brooke
2:20:32coming to her porch and identifying
2:20:34Uncle Clarence as the killer did she
2:20:36mention how she made her stand out there
2:20:37for 45 minutes and then didn't call the
2:20:40police like just drove her home kind of
2:20:42asked her some questions on the way home
2:20:44maybe mentioned that the attacker looked
2:20:47like her uncle Clarence maybe she fed
2:20:50her that information
2:20:51information you know people react
2:20:54differently in times of
2:20:56shock and you know maybe Tanya is rude
2:20:59okay maybe you would bring the
2:21:02traumatized six-year-old into your home
2:21:04maybe you'd welcome her into the
2:21:06home maybe you'd call
2:21:10911 um not Tanya uhuh rude
2:21:15uhuh or an accessory
2:21:21well I don't know where you're getting
2:21:26that they called Brook to the stand and
2:21:29Brooke testified that her uncle killed
2:21:30her grandma and that he punched her in
2:21:32the
2:21:33cheek but the defense pointed out that
2:21:35it was kind of weird that in her first
2:21:38time speaking about the crime you know
2:21:40they had that voicemail message yeah
2:21:42Brooke didn't say it was her uncle who
2:21:44killed her grandma she said someone
2:21:45killed my grandma Yeah information was
2:21:48fed to her and the defense claimed that
2:21:50this was because Brooke didn't know who
2:21:53the murderer was correct it wasn't until
2:21:56later that she became certain that her
2:21:58uncle had done this yeah cuz the
2:22:02neighbor was like oh your uncle Clarence
2:22:08huh the prosecution was like
2:22:11redirect and they asked
2:22:13Brooke are you sure was are you sure it
2:22:15was your uncle Clarence and she said yes
2:22:19and they asked how how do you know and
2:22:21she said because of his
2:22:24face which is how I know that you're
2:22:26[Laughter]
2:22:29you [ __ ] okay once she finished her
2:22:33testimony the prosecution rested the
2:22:35defense which was led by Lawrence
2:22:37Whitney made the point that the only
2:22:40evidence against Clarence was the word
2:22:42of a traumatized six-year-old
2:22:45yeah there was no physical evidence
2:22:48tying Clarence to this murder we're fine
2:22:51with that we're just going to give him
2:22:52the death
2:22:54penalty it had been so brutal there had
2:22:57been blood everywhere and yet there
2:22:59wasn't any blood in his car nothing in
2:23:01his home it's totally cool we got to get
2:23:03this guy off the
2:23:04[Laughter]
2:23:06streets this guy seems like the kind of
2:23:09guy who drinks eight or 10 beers and
2:23:10claims he's doing chores all day we got
2:23:12to get this guy off the street streats I
2:23:15hate this hair tests and DNA tests
2:23:19showed that none of the evidence match
2:23:22clearance also that's fine too also the
2:23:26timeline didn't really make sense you
2:23:28know friends testified that they'd been
2:23:30with Clarence drinking until like 2:30
2:23:32a.m. Melinda knew he came home around
2:23:352:30 a.m. and he didn't leave the house
2:23:38afterward they had these like I guess
2:23:40kind of yippy dogs and she was like you
2:23:42know if anyone would have been coming or
2:23:44going those dogs would
2:23:47have yeah that's my impression of a dog
2:23:50yeah very good thank you you know what
2:23:52your impression of a dog says I know
2:23:57dogs you know what my tan says I go
2:24:01outside uh plus they lived like an hour
2:24:04away from Judy it would have taken a lot
2:24:07of time for him to drive there commit
2:24:10this horrible crime and drive back
2:24:14undetected the JY we're cool with that
2:24:17too we're just going to go ahead and
2:24:18find him guilty and sentence him to
2:24:20death death I'm like a bird I fly to the
2:24:23crime
2:24:25sea completely
2:24:27unded oh so
2:24:30good I've had like 10
2:24:34beers the jury deliberated for like 14
2:24:38hours the crowd in the courthouse that
2:24:41day was very divided so when the jury
2:24:44found Clarence not guilty of aggravated
2:24:47murder some members of the crowd cheered
2:24:51Bry I wish I wish everyone could see
2:24:53your face it's like those it's like the
2:24:57comedy and drama Mas you're
2:25:02like what's G to happen
2:25:05now then the jury found Clarence guilty
2:25:08of murder and those same people who
2:25:11cheered began to scream the jury had
2:25:19compromised I'm one of those people in
2:25:21the courtroom screaming
2:25:25yeah before he was taken away Clarence
2:25:28turned to Melinda and said I love you
2:25:31and she said I love you this isn't
2:25:36over oh my gosh two weeks later Clarence
2:25:40was sentenced to life in prison okay
2:25:42well at least they didn't give him the
2:25:43[ __ ] death penalty well yeah they
2:25:45couldn't cuz they found him not guilty
2:25:46on the first one but don't worry he'd be
2:25:48eligible for parole in 205 for
2:25:52Jesus that time's going to fly no he was
2:25:56going to grow out his hair he was going
2:25:57to make
2:25:59t-shir to
2:26:03Lo and the J was like we can't put this
2:26:06guy to death he's got such a good head
2:26:10hair oh my
2:26:13gosh Melinda was like hell no she knew
2:26:16he hadn't done this this wasn't Justice
2:26:19this wasn't Justice for for Clarence not
2:26:21for Brooke not for Judy so Melinda
2:26:24decided to
2:26:27fight but she didn't have many resources
2:26:30the trial had nearly bankrupted her I'm
2:26:33sure she'd lost her job lost her house
2:26:35she was in debt also I mean she had no
2:26:39training yeah zero investigative
2:26:42experience she'd graduated high school
2:26:45and that was the extent of her education
2:26:47what was a gal to do she needed to learn
2:26:49about crime scenes and she needed to
2:26:52learn from the best so she ordered a
2:26:55textbook from my favorite textbook
2:26:58author too expensive okay what's cheaper
2:27:02um the
2:27:03library she watched a [ __ ] ton of
2:27:07Forensic Files oh episode after episode
2:27:11after episode and she began to learn
2:27:13stuff well yeah she started looking into
2:27:16people her mom's house hadn't been
2:27:19broken into so her killer had to have
2:27:21been someone her mom kind of knew like
2:27:23her neighbor so Melinda made a list of
2:27:26everyone her mom knew like the neighbor
2:27:29she talked to everyone did she talk to
2:27:31the neighbor she became an expert at
2:27:34handling DNA samples she became an
2:27:36expert in
2:27:40Neighbors she would meet up with guys at
2:27:42bars people she thought might have
2:27:45killed her mom and she'd flirt with them
2:27:47buy them a drink make conversation and
2:27:49the second they walked back to the
2:27:51bathroom she'd take their glass or she'd
2:27:54take a cigarette butt or she'd take a
2:27:56used
2:27:58Kleenex I knew you would have a
2:28:01strong like look I'm willing to do some
2:28:04stuff that's too farun i' rather take
2:28:06your used condom than your used cleanex
2:28:09really
2:28:16yeah
2:28:18why I don't know
2:28:23you act like I shouldn't even ask you
2:28:25that question like someone else is going
2:28:27to know the answer to that that's the
2:28:29way my brain
2:28:31works she was constantly just collecting
2:28:34samples sample sample
2:28:35sample it got to the point that her
2:28:37freezer started to look like you know
2:28:39Crim lab freezer there was no room for
2:28:43frozen pizzas which is a real shame I
2:28:46know because Frozen pieces are delicious
2:28:48in a you know in a pin
2:28:51or not in a pinch just you know a Friday
2:28:53night every now and then Norman I like
2:28:56so uh we we've got to H
2:29:00Pizza be ashamed if someone heated that
2:29:03thing right
2:29:05up we are we currently have a lasagna in
2:29:08our freezer so don't brag there are
2:29:11people with used kleenexes in their
2:29:15freezer but Melinda ran into a problem
2:29:18she had all these samples with no going
2:29:20to test him well no she wasn't going to
2:29:23test him herself she figured out that it
2:29:26cost like thousands of dollars just to
2:29:28test one sample yeah she didn't have
2:29:31that kind of money Forensic Files had
2:29:34been quite helpful but she knew she now
2:29:37needed an expert on her side so she
2:29:40hired Martin yant who is a private
2:29:43investigator who specializ who
2:29:45specializes in wrongful convictions does
2:29:48he wear a dick gun
2:29:50how dare you
2:29:54Brandy only
2:29:56Ken puts his gun right above his dick
2:30:01okay like I don't give a [ __ ] if I blow
2:30:04my own dick off if that's how it goes
2:30:09that's how it
2:30:14goes something's going to blow my dick
2:30:17off at one point or another
2:30:21it might as well be my own service
2:30:24weapon um do you want to open that door
2:30:26so I get some air yeah I'm so
2:30:30hoto I think it's those curtain bags I
2:30:34think it is
2:30:35too thank you ma'am oh my God don't be
2:30:39bragging
2:30:40about how cold you are oh my
2:30:45gosh I almost wore a really thick chunky
2:30:48sweater but I remembered how hot it gets
2:30:51in here you know we run our mouths
2:30:55for upwards of three hours well I'm I'm
2:30:58very entertaining and I'm to the point
2:30:59you on the other hand
2:31:02you you start bringing up songs like
2:31:05Amazed by Lone Star and I'm like can we
2:31:08stick to the
2:31:10stories you know I come here for the
2:31:12stories that's right mhm
2:31:15mhm and for the one tit
2:31:18out oh okay back to
2:31:23this okay so she's got Martin yant on
2:31:26her side yeah and there's nothing he
2:31:29yant to do oh man I was trying to think
2:31:31of something stupid like
2:31:35that I'm so sad that you came up with it
2:31:39before me I even said his name again
2:31:42hoping it would like trigger something
2:31:43real
2:31:44fast nope don't have it okay anyway at
2:31:48this point Melinda was pretty sure she
2:31:49knew who'd actually killed her
2:31:52mom it was
2:31:5427-year-old Riley
2:31:56Rush Riley Rush
2:32:00yes is that not the worst name it's not
2:32:03a great name
2:32:06Riley okay I hate it in the same way
2:32:10that I hate the name
2:32:13Kyler mhm I should do that case yeah you
2:32:17should do that case do you have the nuts
2:32:19you talked last week about your big old
2:32:22balls I think my balls are shriveled up
2:32:24now after these two
2:32:29weeks well maybe they'll get replenished
2:32:32at some point they're like little tiny
2:32:37raisins Riley lived near Judy and he had
2:32:41a crush on
2:32:42her and he what how old is he he's 27
2:32:48she's 58 welcome to Cougar
2:32:51Town it's adjacent to flavored
2:32:56Town also riy looked like a magician did
2:33:00he have a mustache no here's here's what
2:33:03he
2:33:05had magician you're thinking of like old
2:33:09timey magician I mean like the douchy
2:33:11new kind of magician like a like a Chris
2:33:13Angel type of guy so he had dark hair
2:33:16very carefully sculpted facial hair he
2:33:18like to wear a vest over button down and
2:33:21you know several top buttons undone for
2:33:26pleasure and no offense to Clarance but
2:33:29R kind of looked like
2:33:30Clarence he did I mean kind of yeah
2:33:34Clarence doesn't look like a magician
2:33:36okay
2:33:40but I'm just saying you did always wear
2:33:43a top hat was just on had a dead duve in
2:33:49it
2:33:55Riley looked like a working
2:33:58magician wasn't out of work
2:34:04magician by this point at the private
2:34:06investigators urging Melinda had
2:34:08reconciled with her sister April
2:34:11Melinda sorry what I don't know you gave
2:34:14me a look you know what the problem is
2:34:16right now we're getting that like it's
2:34:18like we're it's loopy it's like slumber
2:34:20party Vibes it's like Okay it's 3 a.m.
2:34:23now everything's
2:34:25funny so Melinda Melinda showed up at
2:34:28April's house after 3 and A2 years of
2:34:30not speaking and April opened the door
2:34:33and at first she turned away but then
2:34:35she turned back around sobbing and
2:34:38hugged molinda because Melinda said turn
2:34:43around every
2:34:46now you know my HS in
2:34:56you I can't decide if it's too stupid to
2:35:00be offensive or just offensive and
2:35:03stupid and stupid I think so they
2:35:06started talking and it was like those
2:35:07three and a half years hadn't happened
2:35:10Brooke walked into the room and she kind
2:35:11of hesitated but then she went over and
2:35:14hugged Melinda Melinda could barely
2:35:17speak all she did was tell her I love
2:35:20you
2:35:22mhm and then Brooke told Melinda
2:35:24something that shocked her she said she
2:35:28was no longer certain that it had been
2:35:31Uncle
2:35:32Clarence and you know Melinda about
2:35:34crapped herself because now she really
2:35:37wondered how Brooke would react to
2:35:39seeing a photo of riy
2:35:44Rush she about crapped herself that's
2:35:46what they said in crime watch Da
2:35:50or maybe that was dayline yeah it sounds
2:35:53like dayline Keith Morrison she about
2:35:55crapped
2:35:56[Laughter]
2:36:00herself later April took Brooke aside
2:36:03and showed her a photo of Riyal rush and
2:36:06Brook burst into tears she screamed I'll
2:36:10never forget those
2:36:12eyes because she had previously told her
2:36:15mom the guy who did this had brown eyes
2:36:19uhuh
2:36:20but Clarence had blue
2:36:21eyes
2:36:24[ __ ] and that's how in January of 2002
2:36:27Brooke recanted her testimony she was 10
2:36:31now the new defense team had Brooke come
2:36:33in for a tape deposition and here's how
2:36:36the questioning went
2:36:39defense why if you even know why did you
2:36:43say it was Uncle
2:36:44Clarence Brooke because it looked like
2:36:48him defense
2:36:51it looked like him but do you think it
2:36:53was Uncle
2:36:54Clarence Brooke at first
2:36:58yeah defense at first yeah but do you
2:37:02think so
2:37:04today Brooke
2:37:08no a few months later the defense argued
2:37:11for a new trial yeah but they've already
2:37:13[ __ ] got
2:37:17him the soul wit winess had recanted her
2:37:21statement and they had a more viable
2:37:23suspect in mind because nobody likes a
2:37:28magician but the prosecution was like no
2:37:31this recantation is super sus this child
2:37:34is being pressured she's being coerced
2:37:37by her family also the family had had
2:37:39her undergo hypnosis and the prosecution
2:37:42was like that's a bunch of hoo-ha we
2:37:43already have somebody in jail and that's
2:37:45all that we care about so please get the
2:37:48[ __ ] out mhm do you know day sir
2:37:51anything about our Criminal Justice
2:37:53System once we got you we want to keep
2:37:57you and the judge sided with the
2:37:59prosecution of course evidentiary
2:38:02hearing denied
2:38:05mhm I wonder if people people can you
2:38:08hear Kiki eating food Kiki needs to eat
2:38:11she's
2:38:12fine that food smells
2:38:16terrible smells like BV
2:38:20tell me it doesn't I got the seafood
2:38:21medley cuz I was like I bet the cats
2:38:23would like that man you open those cans
2:38:28up sorry Kiki just looked that that's
2:38:30rude I'm talking about what you're
2:38:32eating all right but Melinda was
2:38:35undeterred she fired that defense team
2:38:38and hired a new defense team this time
2:38:40she hired Janna
2:38:43Deo she's got one of those fancy last
2:38:45names it's like capital D lowercase e
2:38:48capital l you know you know I think
2:38:50that's so fancy it is fancy do you want
2:38:53to be Christen to
2:38:56pits how dare you class it up a
2:39:00bit I mean anything would class it up
2:39:03wouldn't
2:39:04it Melinda also got the help of a new
2:39:06legal clinic at the University of
2:39:08Cincinnati law school it was
2:39:12called the Innocence Project oh [ __ ] oh
2:39:15ever heard of it yeah thought so oh
2:39:18that's kind of that the Ohio Innocence
2:39:20Project brings to Alles absolutely real
2:39:24big dick
2:39:26energy bde if you will uhhuh so the new
2:39:30team began looking into this case and
2:39:32although Court had traditionally not
2:39:33gone the elins way they did get one
2:39:36small victory they were granted access
2:39:39to DNA that had been taken from the
2:39:40crime scene
2:39:42yay but they'd have to be the ones to
2:39:45pay for all the testing oh [ __ ] who's
2:39:47paying for that yeah well Melinda didn't
2:39:50have money but that didn't stop her she
2:39:52talked to Media Outlets she held rallies
2:39:54she held fundraising efforts and she
2:39:57raised quite a bit of money for DNA
2:39:59testing which is good because it's like
2:40:00crazy expensive and then two months
2:40:04later something kind of weird
2:40:07happened the prosecution called up the
2:40:09defense and they were
2:40:12like what you
2:40:15doing would you like to run a DNA sample
2:40:18from Riyal r
2:40:20just to see if he's the one who did
2:40:22it and the defense was
2:40:25like okay
2:40:28sure riyle gave his sample willingly he
2:40:31was like it wasn't me here's some spit
2:40:33you're welcome now watch me pull a
2:40:35rabbit out of my
2:40:37hat but this which is weird because he
2:40:39wasn't wearing a hat so he had to then
2:40:41like pull a hat out of his ass and then
2:40:43pull a rabbit out of the hat and people
2:40:44were impressed yeah they were like this
2:40:47is why you are aan Ohio's best
2:40:51magician also we should talk about how
2:40:54it's pronounced a is it
2:41:02really my
2:41:05apologies Kiki are you supposed to eat
2:41:07that bowl too isn't that booze Bowl
2:41:11wow I mean it
2:41:13[Laughter]
2:41:16is I started to feel a little
2:41:19like every like I mean this this never
2:41:23happens but like once every 5 years
2:41:26Norm's like are you eating that like
2:41:29didn't you already and it's
2:41:32like that's how I feel about you talking
2:41:35my cat that way I'm not fat shaming your
2:41:37cat I'm concerned that boo won't have
2:41:39enough food oh boo will be fine look
2:41:43Kiki's going back to the other I'm sorry
2:41:45this is not interesting to the listeners
2:41:47at allal [ __ ] people are like hm
2:41:50interesting do I care about this murder
2:41:52no no let's hear what
2:41:57eating by this point technology had
2:42:01Advanced and now Labs could run a male
2:42:04specific test one that only examines
2:42:07male
2:42:08DNA this test was considered super
2:42:10helpful in cases where there would be a
2:42:12ton of female DNA present that you
2:42:14didn't need to test so they ran the
2:42:16tests against Riley's DNA and against
2:42:18Clarence
2:42:19DNA they couldn't afford to test all of
2:42:22the crime scene evidence that would have
2:42:24been nuts so they took the pieces of
2:42:26evidence that they thought would be the
2:42:28most damning Brooks underwear and
2:42:30samples from Judy's body
2:42:33MH guess what it didn't match either of
2:42:37them none of it matched
2:42:40Clarence and none of it matched riyle
2:42:46yeah and it didn't matter because he had
2:42:48disappeared
2:42:50sorry I'm so
2:42:53sorry
2:42:55Jes he been cut in
2:43:01half so they had to decide are we really
2:43:04G to lock up half a
2:43:07man if we can't find and then which half
2:43:11do you lock up they couldn't find the
2:43:14other
2:43:16half some beautiful lady had come him
2:43:20open she wasn't
2:43:22talking okay anyway
2:43:28anyway so that last part was kind of
2:43:30shocking both the magic trick and the
2:43:32fact that riy didn't match uh clarence's
2:43:34supporters had been so sure riyle had
2:43:37done this yeah but Clarence didn't match
2:43:39either exactly that's what defense
2:43:40attorney Janice said with her fancy last
2:43:43name she was like Hey we've got
2:43:44something here we just ran this crime
2:43:46scene through more rigorous DNA tests
2:43:48and it shows that clarence's DNA wasn't
2:43:51there so maybe this is the first step
2:43:53toward exoneration so they petitioned
2:43:56the court for a chance to show off their
2:43:57hot new findings yeah and the cour was
2:44:00like nah uh except for the judge said
2:44:03yes oh good you can do that on December
2:44:051st 2004 come on in don't listen to
2:44:08Brandy
2:44:09Egan she's a freaking high school
2:44:13student actually no you weren't this gr
2:44:16I already graduated in your face
2:44:23at the hearing Janice showed the testing
2:44:25they' done was new and relevant and
2:44:27therefore a real game
2:44:29changer
2:44:33Transformers
2:44:35me thank you yeah I like how you gave me
2:44:37a look like you weren't going to
2:44:38participate and then you couldn't resist
2:44:41prosecutor Michael Carroll AKA that same
2:44:44old [ __ ] from the first trial was like
2:44:46um
2:44:47judge none of this
2:44:50matters Clarence wasn't convicted on
2:44:53forensic evidence we never had any
2:44:56forensic evidence on Clarence Clarence
2:44:58was convicted based on the statement of
2:45:00an eyewitness who has recanted their
2:45:03testimony thank you for bringing that up
2:45:05prosecutor Michael the [ __ ] or whatever
2:45:07your name is no that wasn't allowed
2:45:10remember that had been you know you know
2:45:14disallowed uhhuh yep not allowed so this
2:45:18DNA stuff was was a bunch of
2:45:20hoey Judge Judy Hunter asked the
2:45:23prosecutor about the testing from The
2:45:24Trial
2:45:25saying what were those precise results
2:45:28at
2:45:29trial and he
2:45:31said I'll give you the bottom line all
2:45:33the testing nothing included Clarence
2:45:36alkins the physical evidence the
2:45:38forensic evidence did not include him
2:45:40but this is not a case based on the
2:45:42forensics okay it's a case based on the
2:45:45child
2:45:47victim how can you say this is not based
2:45:50on Forensic you've got forensic evidence
2:45:52there you've run the new DNA test he
2:45:55does not match the male DNA at the scene
2:46:00yeah Clarence was sitting at the hearing
2:46:02listening to all this and he was kind of
2:46:04like not quite smiling but definitely
2:46:06nodding like yeah none of the physical
2:46:09evidence linked to me none of the
2:46:11forensic evidence linkeds to me is
2:46:14everyone seeing this are you all
2:46:15listening to this but prosecutor Michael
2:46:18had no no shortage of [ __ ] to spew
2:46:20that day he was like look the only
2:46:23reason these new tests were even
2:46:25conducted was to figure out if Riyal
2:46:27Rush was the one who did this and we
2:46:29figured out that he
2:46:30didn't the fact that those same tests
2:46:33also rule out Clarence alkins is
2:46:34irrelevant it's not though yeah
2:46:38that's it's not irrelevant oh that makes
2:46:41me want to scream
2:46:44yeah how can it not be relevant when it
2:46:47just got another guy off
2:46:50yeah the judge asked is it not
2:46:54significant that no comparison to RI
2:46:57Rush was made and no comparison to this
2:47:00defendant and Michael said no it's
2:47:03significant that no comparison was made
2:47:05to Riyal rush but the evidence at the
2:47:07trial did not make a comparison to this
2:47:12man there's footage of clarence's
2:47:14friends and family laughing and shaking
2:47:16their heads during this during this
2:47:18hearing because it was so
2:47:20ridiculous defense attorney Jana stood
2:47:23up and said your honor I believe totally
2:47:25that we've met our burden the evidence
2:47:28that identified the rapist of Judith
2:47:29Johnson was not detectable at the time
2:47:32of trial they're a dog with a bone and
2:47:35they don't want to let it go we have an
2:47:37innocent man sitting here in this chair
2:47:39he's been in prison for 6 and a half
2:47:42years and it's wrong they need to give
2:47:44it up yes
2:47:49Michael the prosecutor later told the
2:47:51media the whole point of this exercise
2:47:54was to show that Riyal Rush did this and
2:47:57they couldn't do it so now they want to
2:47:59take the results and use them for
2:48:01something
2:48:02else no no they're showing that the
2:48:05wrong person is in
2:48:07prison and you don't give a [ __ ] because
2:48:10you don't give a [ __ ] about Justice oh
2:48:12my
2:48:14God 27 days later the judge handed down
2:48:17her ruling she cited with Clarence he
2:48:20could have an evidentiary an evidentiary
2:48:23hearing
2:48:26eviden so now it's March of 2005 and
2:48:29once again we're in the courtroom of
2:48:31Judge Judith Shiner uh Judith
2:48:35hter they've taken it they started with
2:48:38Mor and they end it with Judge Judy
2:48:40we're going to all the
2:48:43greats the defense now had to prove that
2:48:45if this new evidence had been presented
2:48:47at trial it could have created
2:48:48Reasonable Doubt you know blah blah new
2:48:51trial time you know how that works yeah
2:48:55Mark Gody a defense attorney with the
2:48:57Ohio Innocence Project talked about the
2:48:59DNA testing he said that male DNA was
2:49:02was found at the crime scene and it did
2:49:04not match Clarence alins can we say it
2:49:07again for the people back he said this
2:49:09trial was all based on the eyewitness
2:49:11testimony of a of a traumatized
2:49:14six-year-old I'm sorry I need
2:49:17chapstick l move up your anus
2:49:21Brandy you think that just cuz I showed
2:49:23you one tit I'm going to show you my
2:49:25butthole
2:49:26too Lo Lady it's not your lucky day got
2:49:29googly eyes on it
2:49:34too fart that thing off into
2:49:38Oblivion be a waste of a perfectly good
2:49:40googly
2:49:43eye but you know what prosecutor Michael
2:49:46said DNA shme yeah he said working that
2:49:50into every episode I love
2:49:53it he said we had to stick to Brook's
2:49:55original testimony which was that one
2:49:57person committed this crime and that
2:49:59person was Uncle Clarence no why do we
2:50:01need to stick to that you don't need to
2:50:04stick to that he's
2:50:07been the DNA shows it's not him and
2:50:10Brooke is saying I was six then I'm I I
2:50:14I wasn't
2:50:16sure yeah so that's the thing is
2:50:19eyewitness testimony is notoriously
2:50:22faulty yeah also this happened in the
2:50:25dark yeah she was 6 years
2:50:28old and she was knocked
2:50:31unconscious oh my gosh this so
2:50:34infuriating it's going to get worse you
2:50:36ready oh
2:50:38no Michael did acknowledge that there
2:50:40was male DNA on the evidence that had
2:50:44been collected from the crime scene but
2:50:46it was not connected to this crime
2:50:51that's where the [ __ ] did that male DNA
2:50:53come from
2:50:54then the male DNA found in Brooks
2:50:57underwear and inside Judith's body was
2:51:00not connected to this crime
2:51:03okay well
2:51:05that's we're getting there we're getting
2:51:09there the defense called forensic an
2:51:11forensic analyst Cassie Johnson are you
2:51:14going to be okay no and in her testimony
2:51:17she explained the testing procedure she
2:51:19said you know what's already been said a
2:51:20thousand times Clarence DNA was not
2:51:22president did not match the male DNA
2:51:24founded the scene blah blah blah okay
2:51:26prosecutor Michael he's in a tough spot
2:51:28now right it looked like a bit of
2:51:30Justice might be happening and no one
2:51:33wants that so he argued that perhaps
2:51:36this evidence had been
2:51:39contaminated that's how it's not
2:51:41relevant it's been
2:51:42contaminated he had okay this next part
2:51:46is nuts I'm going to need you to buckle
2:51:48up
2:51:49click he had a piece of the evidence in
2:51:51a brown bag and he asked Cassie about
2:51:54the state of the bag when she received
2:51:55it and she was like yeah it was folded
2:51:57and you know whatever and so they're
2:51:59going along and then he said and
2:52:02contained in the brown paper the pink
2:52:05panties and as he's talking he's
2:52:08unwrapping the paper and he grabs the
2:52:10underwear and lifts it with his bare
2:52:14hands and Cassie goes I'd request that
2:52:18gloves be put on when handling the
2:52:21evidence and he says I'll take my
2:52:23chances oh my gosh it's not for you you
2:52:27[ __ ]
2:52:29exactly no one is oh my God no one's
2:52:33worried about you dude I'll take my
2:52:36chances so then there's this commotion
2:52:37in the court and people are like what
2:52:39the [ __ ] and you can hear a woman say
2:52:41sir sir and he go and he tries to keep
2:52:44going he's like these are the pink
2:52:46panties and the defense objected and the
2:52:48judge said I object too would you put
2:52:51those back down and if we're going to
2:52:53handle evidence we're going to do it
2:52:55with gloves
2:52:56on oh my
2:52:59gosh so then Michael who did look
2:53:02embarrassed I mean has can you [ __ ]
2:53:05imagine I can't imagine he turned back
2:53:07to Cassie and was like well were you
2:53:09aware that at trial these items were
2:53:11handled and Cassie was like look man I
2:53:14don't know what happened to these items
2:53:16before I got them at my lab I just know
2:53:19you need to get your grubby mitts off of
2:53:20them you [ __ ] weirdo [ __ ] also don't
2:53:23say panties it's gross say
2:53:26Underpants that's and that's what she
2:53:28said at yeah this
2:53:31hearing so then the defense called the
2:53:33DNA lab director and he told the court
2:53:36that another bag of evidence which
2:53:38contained Judy Johnson's fingernails
2:53:40arrived at the lab sealed from the day
2:53:42of the murder so that kind of flies in
2:53:43the face of this idea that like oh it
2:53:45had all been opened and tampered with
2:53:49and he also said that Clarence alkins
2:53:51was excluded from every piece of
2:53:53evidence that they tested I don't know
2:53:55how many times a person can say how many
2:53:57times does it need to be said in his
2:54:00closing argument Pro I don't know that
2:54:02they call these closing arguments but
2:54:03you know whatever you know whatever
2:54:04prosecutor Michael reiterated that this
2:54:06whole thing was irrelevant because the
2:54:08DNA that was found at the crime scene
2:54:11wasn't related to the crime
2:54:13somehow months passed and finally the
2:54:17judge made her
2:54:20decision she denied clarence's motion
2:54:23for a new trial are you [ __ ] kidding
2:54:26I am not see this is
2:54:30where it gets me
2:54:32because this stuff is all about
2:54:35technicalities and it's like okay
2:54:37technically it all came down to at trial
2:54:40this eyewitness testimony so the fact
2:54:43that we now know he is innocent is not a
2:54:46reason to overturn the ver that do
2:54:48matter you're you could only be have
2:54:50this overturn for errors at trial but
2:54:53that's [ __ ] ridiculous
2:54:55yes if new testing comes along and shows
2:54:59that you absolutely didn't do
2:55:01it then let the guy go oh my gosh this
2:55:05is
2:55:07infuriating Melinda said I just couldn't
2:55:10believe it my thought was what is it
2:55:12going to take they want me to hand this
2:55:15murderer on a silver platter to them
2:55:17well by damn that's what I'm going to do
2:55:20go Melinda so she went back to trying to
2:55:22find her mother's killer she reviewed
2:55:24all her past research and one day an
2:55:26article in the local newspaper caught
2:55:28her
2:55:29eye it mentioned Tanya Brazil I was
2:55:33going to say was it about the neighbor
2:55:35da you may remember had been her mom's
2:55:38neighbor uhhuh she'd been the woman who
2:55:41when Brooke was bloody and traumatized
2:55:43stand outside for 45 minutes we remember
2:55:46Brandy remembers and pepp Farm
2:55:50remembers Melinda always thought that it
2:55:52was super weird that Tanya did that why
2:55:54not call 911 DK you well the newspaper
2:55:59article said that Tanya's common law
2:56:01husband Earl man had recently been
2:56:04charged with three counts of rape of
2:56:06children under the age of 10 uh yeah
2:56:09let's let's get a DNA sample from Earl
2:56:13man um Tanya had also been charged with
2:56:16child endangerment
2:56:18if you can believe it I can believe
2:56:21it so Melinda began looking into this
2:56:24guy he had a long tracker
2:56:28track that's a track record it's cuz
2:56:30it's late we've been we're over three
2:56:34hours say track and record we have to
2:56:38combine
2:56:41words we have no
2:56:46choice listen on the bonus episodes
2:56:48we'll say all the words every bit of
2:56:50every word but on you know in this
2:56:52situation we just can't what time is it
2:56:54hang on I'm checking oh my God it's
2:56:56almost midnight almost midnight Brandy
2:56:59okay so he had a long tracker of violent
2:57:03sexual
2:57:05crimes and get a l of this he'd been LED
2:57:08out of prison two days before the murder
2:57:11Oh weird so Melinda was like well [ __ ]
2:57:13I've got to get this guy's DNA but how
2:57:15do I do it he's in prison she decided
2:57:19that her best bet was to catfish him so
2:57:21she started writing him letters trying
2:57:23to get him to respond oh my gosh and
2:57:25thinking may maybe he'll lick the
2:57:27envelope
2:57:31panties and that lovely prosecutor will
2:57:34come over and be like I'll take my
2:57:36chances yeah yeah thanks dude no she was
2:57:40perhaps thinking that he would lick the
2:57:42envelope yeah I got
2:57:44yeah she wrote him 18 letters
2:57:49but Earl didn't respond to any of
2:57:51them but then Earl was transferred to a
2:57:54new
2:57:56prison the same place where Clarence was
2:57:59imprisoned and holy [ __ ] Earl got
2:58:01transferred to clarence's same cell
2:58:04block shut up at this point defense
2:58:07attorney Jana was in the loop ready to
2:58:09help and in a meeting with Clarence she
2:58:11said hey does Earl
2:58:14smoke and Clarence said yes and she said
2:58:17that that's it get a cigarette
2:58:20butt but that wasn't easy Clarence was
2:58:24trying to secretly get a DNA sample from
2:58:26a violent offender and then smuggle the
2:58:29sample out of prison out of prison
2:58:32yeah he worked at this for five months I
2:58:35say why don't you just head to the Moon
2:58:37while you're at it
2:58:39like but he did it he saw Earl smoking
2:58:44and when no one was looking he picked
2:58:46the cigarette butt out of the ashtray he
2:58:48went back to his cell with it and stuck
2:58:50the cigarette butt in his Bible and a
2:58:53few days later Earl man got transferred
2:58:55to another prison oh my gosh I know I
2:58:59know [ __ ] two weeks after that Clarence
2:59:03got his hands on a clean Ziploc bag so
2:59:06he used that to smuggle the cigarette
2:59:08butt out of the prison in a letter to
2:59:10Jana in a Jana to
2:59:14letter in a jedar to l
2:59:19oh
2:59:20no Jana immediately took it in for
2:59:23testing and it was a match yeah they'd
2:59:27found the real rapist SL murderer well
2:59:29they should have talked to me this okay
2:59:32so this is what is so funny is
2:59:36like it's so obvious
2:59:40obvious so obvious right
2:59:44yeah you're going to be shocked by how
2:59:47much more obvious it it's about to
2:59:48become uhuh okay so Melinda was thrilled
2:59:51oh my
2:59:52God Melinda was thrilled but clarence's
2:59:56defense team wasn't confident they were
2:59:58confident in their evidence they were
3:00:00confident that Earl was the murderer but
3:00:01prosecutor Michael had proven himself to
3:00:03be a total [ __ ] and the other people
3:00:06in the Local District Attorney's Office
3:00:07were equally dip shitty yes so instead
3:00:10of going to them clarence's defense team
3:00:13went to the State Attorney General Jim
3:00:15petro and Jim a Lo of this he was one of
3:00:19these real wild people who like believes
3:00:22in DNA evidence and so he did a six-
3:00:25week investigation and during that
3:00:27investigation Earl admitted to being in
3:00:31Judy's home on the night of the murder
3:00:34uh he hadn't committed the crime though
3:00:36when he left everything was fine okay
3:00:39yeah so his DNA matches yeah and he
3:00:42admits to being there the night she was
3:00:44murdered yeah come the [ __ ] on at this
3:00:48point Jim was like uh okay we've got a
3:00:50DNA match he's putting himself at the
3:00:52crime
3:00:53scene this is like brandy and her ho
3:00:56face too
3:01:01easy but Jim didn't have any direct
3:01:03authority over this case so instead he
3:01:06made the unusual and deliciously [ __ ]
3:01:09decision to call a press conference and
3:01:11put pressure on the local da to
3:01:13exonerate
3:01:15Clarence and the DA's office was like
3:01:21no yeah can you believe this no so the
3:01:26defense team is like fine you know what
3:01:29we're we're going to gather even more
3:01:31evidence we're going to make this
3:01:33embarrassing for you yeah they knew they
3:01:36had a pubic hair from the crime scene so
3:01:38in December of 2005 they tested the
3:01:40pubic hair against Earl's DNA and it was
3:01:43a perfect match of course it was so they
3:01:46had Earl by the short and curly as they
3:01:48say but now they had to get the local
3:01:51DA's office by the short and curries as
3:01:54they say yeah you know
3:01:56M they knew just how to do it set up a
3:01:59waxing stand outside of the courthouse
3:02:02Jesus offer free Brazilians to anyone in
3:02:05a power suit boom
3:02:08done why Melinda and the defense team
3:02:11didn't do this we will never know
3:02:13instead they called a press conference
3:02:15lame super lame but just a few minutes
3:02:19before the press conference began
3:02:20Melinda got a phone call the prosecution
3:02:23was dropping all charges they were
3:02:26letting Clarence go
3:02:28yeah so on December 15th
3:02:312005 Clarence Elkins finally walked out
3:02:34of prison he'd been locked up for 7 and
3:02:36a half years oh my gosh he got to have
3:02:39Christmas with his family for the first
3:02:40time in 8 years
3:02:43oh but he still had a lot to unpack
3:02:45emotionally he said I'm I'm angry at
3:02:48everyone that had a part in arresting me
3:02:50and Prosecuting me I still am very very
3:02:54angry I put the anger behind me in the
3:02:56back of my head for all those years but
3:02:58it comes out at times and it's not easy
3:03:00to deal
3:03:01with he clarified that he has never felt
3:03:04any anger for Brooke he said I knew she
3:03:07was making a mistake from the get-go I
3:03:09never once held it against her at all
3:03:12and I don't
3:03:14today but Brook still struggles with
3:03:16guilt she said I still feel guilty even
3:03:20though they tell me it's not my fault
3:03:22because I put him in there it was
3:03:26me okay no it wasn't no it wasn't no it
3:03:29wasn't
3:03:34nope investigators need to do their
3:03:37[ __ ] jobs yeah prosecutors need to do
3:03:40their [ __ ] jobs
3:03:45absolutely around this time Brooke was
3:03:47also interviewed on Larry King and she
3:03:49talked more about how the false
3:03:51identification occurred yeah because she
3:03:55was coached by the
3:03:58neighbor well okay let me read you what
3:04:00she says okay she goes well the morning
3:04:02I found I woke up and I found my grandma
3:04:04dead I went to a Nextdoor neighbor's
3:04:06house and I told her that it looked like
3:04:08my uncle Clarence and it sounded like
3:04:10him so she took me home and she told my
3:04:13mom that what I told her and then
3:04:15everyone just started freaking out and
3:04:17then my mom and dad called the police
3:04:19and my mom and dad told the police that
3:04:21it was my uncle Clarence who did it well
3:04:24I told people that it looked like him
3:04:27and they just went like it was him they
3:04:29didn't even listen to what I was
3:04:35saying I think Tanya know knew exactly
3:04:38what she was doing I 100% think Tanya
3:04:41knew what she was doing mhm yeah
3:04:43Clarence and Melinda divorced not long
3:04:46after his release but they remained
3:04:47friends Melinda said it was hard because
3:04:50you know everyone wanted this like
3:04:51Hollywood ending for them but it just
3:04:53wasn't in the
3:04:55cards and this wasn't over because even
3:04:57though they'd let Clarance go the powers
3:04:59of Beast still hadn't charged Earl man
3:05:01with anything oh my gosh and they really
3:05:04should have in fact they should have
3:05:05done a lot of things because around this
3:05:07time a police officer came forward and
3:05:10was like Hey I have this Memo from
3:05:121999 get a load of this 4 months before
3:05:16clarence's trial at police police
3:05:17officer arrested Earl man for robbery
3:05:20Earl was drunk he was belligerent and he
3:05:24asked the officer why he hadn't been
3:05:26arrested for the murder of Judy
3:05:29Johnson holy [ __ ] that officer wrote
3:05:33that down and sent it to the detectives
3:05:35who were working Judy's
3:05:37murder and they never did anything with
3:05:40it yeah and somehow Clarence elin's
3:05:43defense team never found out about this
3:05:48wow Tanya did eventually tell her side
3:05:50of the story she said that in the early
3:05:53morning hours of the murder Earl came
3:05:55home with big
3:05:57scratches and when she asked him about
3:05:59them he said he'd been with a wild
3:06:02woman and later when Brooke knocked on
3:06:05the door he told Tanya not to let Brooke
3:06:07in and not to call the police mhm so
3:06:11yeah give me a [ __ ] break she knew
3:06:13exactly what she was doing
3:06:15ex finally in 2008 Earl man got a plea
3:06:19agreement if he admitted to aggravated
3:06:21rape of brooken Judy and the aggravated
3:06:24murder of Judy Johnson he'd be spared
3:06:26the death
3:06:27penalty he was sentenced to 55 years to
3:06:30life in prison he'll be eligible for
3:06:33parole when he's 92
3:06:35okay um there are two major civil suits
3:06:37that came from this case Clarence
3:06:39settled with the state of Ohio for 1.75
3:06:42million and he also sued the police
3:06:45department because he was like yeah um
3:06:48my defense team should have known yeah
3:06:51about that whole thing and they were
3:06:52like no we shouldn't have the police
3:06:56department's legal team tried to get
3:06:57this thrown out of court and the judge
3:06:58was like H nice try now we're going to
3:07:00keep it we're going to keep it right
3:07:01here and eventually they settled for
3:07:045.25
3:07:09million um
3:07:11what I I have a question but it might be
3:07:14a shitty question no that's okay do
3:07:16Melinda get any of that money I sure as
3:07:18[ __ ] hope so I really hope so yeah cuz
3:07:23he would not be out
3:07:27without yeah I really hope she gets some
3:07:29of
3:07:31that Clarence and Melinda have both
3:07:34remarried Clarence interestingly he
3:07:36ended up marrying a lady who worked for
3:07:39um the Attorney General's office and who
3:07:41had been like reading up on his case and
3:07:43stuff mhm they're still involved in
3:07:46exonerations and you know yeah blah blah
3:07:49blah I've been talking for a long time
3:07:50so you know they're just they're
3:07:51involved and after all of this horrible
3:07:54mess was somewhat behind them Melinda
3:07:56got back to what she'd been searching
3:07:58for be find
3:08:00her she renewed her search for her birth
3:08:04family she went to Hicks bab reunions
3:08:07and she uploaded her DNA to
3:08:10ancestry.com and that's how she found
3:08:12her brother Terry Griffith he' uploaded
3:08:16his DNA to answer cry.com after he
3:08:18learned that his mom had placed his
3:08:20sister for adoption years
3:08:23ago so he lived in Nashville she went
3:08:26out to meet him oh they look so much
3:08:29alike it's amazing unfortunately um
3:08:32their biological parents had died by
3:08:34this point but Melinda was so excited to
3:08:38meet her brother she said I never gave
3:08:41up I knew that if I just kept chipping
3:08:43away that it would eventually happen my
3:08:46mom would be so happy
3:08:49oh and that's the story of the murder of
3:08:52Judith
3:08:53Johnson oh my gosh that was
3:08:56infuriating I have to admit something
3:08:59what I kind of was hoping that you would
3:09:04assume that the Hicks baby stuff was
3:09:07related to the murder
3:09:08[Laughter]
3:09:13stuff you know some of those True Crime
3:09:15shows do the thing that I hate of like
3:09:18they don't mention that Tanya was a big
3:09:22[ __ ] weirdo yeah and let this
3:09:24six-year-old sit out on her front porch
3:09:26for 45 minutes
3:09:28yeah which yeah really does make it seem
3:09:31a little more mysterious it would
3:09:34yeah but
3:09:36that how the [ __ ] do you not make that
3:09:39connection yeah oh
3:09:43anyway that's my story oh my gosh that
3:09:46was so good
3:09:48oh my gosh let's take some questions
3:09:50from our Discord and you have to be the
3:09:52one to tell them how to get in there
3:09:53okay uh to get in our Discord all you
3:09:55have to do is join our patreon at the $5
3:09:57level or higher and then you get into
3:10:00this like little chat room thing to
3:10:01chitty chat the day
3:10:04away oh Nat likes cats wants to know
3:10:06what are your feelings on Valentine's
3:10:08Day any great or terrible Valentine's
3:10:11Day stick out over the years G Brandy
3:10:14what you got let me think I filed for
3:10:18divorce on Valentine's Day so that would
3:10:22be a negative memory but you know what I
3:10:26did the very next Valentine's Day got
3:10:29your ass
3:10:30blessed sorry I'm so sorry no Kristen in
3:10:35fact I found out that the baby I was
3:10:38carrying in my w was a beautiful baby
3:10:42girl I'm so sorry
3:10:47and then I got my ass
3:10:56blasted um I'll tell you what we did
3:10:58last Valentine's Day so oh gosh this is
3:11:02actually the one year anniversary of
3:11:04peanut dying oh yeah so she died
3:11:07February 1st last year and cuz I cannot
3:11:10live without a dog we got doy on
3:11:13February 11th yeah and so and she was
3:11:16like such anxious dog and she
3:11:20like didn't like to be left alone didn't
3:11:23like to be off of the living room couch
3:11:25that was like her was her safe zone so
3:11:29for Valentine's Day we decided and I
3:11:31remember it was like snowing out we
3:11:32decided Well we won't leave doy for long
3:11:35we'll just go grab pizza and we thought
3:11:37it'll be good we're going to be gone for
3:11:39like 10 minutes picking up this pizza
3:11:42it'll be a good just little experiment
3:11:44for her to just be you know we'll
3:11:46confine her to the kit kitchen yeah 10
3:11:48minutes
3:11:50okay we went we got a heart-shaped Pizza
3:11:54I don't mean to brag to you and also a
3:11:56bouquet of buffalo wings
3:11:58yes
3:12:00romance so I blasted my own
3:12:04ass we got back we had put up a pet gate
3:12:09and we'd blocked the kitchen door with
3:12:11two chairs doy had like free willed over
3:12:15that whole thing and she had taken a
3:12:18dump in the living room on Valentine's
3:12:22Day well you know she'd been we'd be got
3:12:2510 minutes she got her ass blessed
3:12:31that so that's our romantic Valentine's
3:12:34Day memory I love
3:12:36it my uncle was
3:12:39SK was
3:12:44what my uncle was SC
3:12:48with
3:12:52skin wants to know have you watched
3:12:55Yellow Jackets David and I binged it
3:12:58this week I have no idea what that
3:13:01is oh my God are you
3:13:05okay Kristen yes Yellow Jackets is the
3:13:09heroing tail of a high school soccer
3:13:13team who is flying to the the
3:13:17championship game oh no does the plane
3:13:20go the plane goes down it's a girls
3:13:22soccer team isn't it yes oh I've been
3:13:24wanting to see that it's so [ __ ] good
3:13:27what's it on it's on Showtime oh that's
3:13:29why I haven't seen it yet I don't have
3:13:31Showtime well you got to get Showtime
3:13:33fine watch yellow David and I watched it
3:13:36in three days okay it's only one season
3:13:39so far 10
3:13:40episodes oh my God it was so good yeah
3:13:42I've heard very good things all right
3:13:45watch it oh carmx wants to know what's
3:13:48your worst snow story do you have a bad
3:13:50snow story no I love snow I do too yeah
3:13:54I got nothing I got nothing against Snow
3:13:57Norm gets so upset about snow well yeah
3:14:00he's a southern boy well yeah but we
3:14:02stay indoors we're indoor
3:14:05cats we get to just look out at how
3:14:07pretty it is yes it's
3:14:10beautiful oh we have to talk about this
3:14:12because you and I had a conversation
3:14:14about this well last week and I was
3:14:17anyway okay tus and potatoes wants to
3:14:19know have you watched cheer season two
3:14:22oh okay so we talked about this when I
3:14:25was doing your hair last week right I
3:14:27thought that I had finished the season
3:14:30what I had not finished the season and
3:14:32you asked me a question that I'm not
3:14:34going to reveal to the listeners because
3:14:36I don't want to spoil anything but I was
3:14:38like yeah and I was like did that happen
3:14:41I don't remember that happening okay I'm
3:14:43glad you brought this up cuz I was like
3:14:45she is terrible And discussing this I
3:14:48like I know I'm very passionate about
3:14:50this show but she's really not bringing
3:14:52the good the last two episodes I never
3:14:55finished it oh my gosh so when you said
3:15:00that I went back and I was like well no
3:15:02[ __ ] wonder I didn't know what she
3:15:03was talking about oh my gosh I was
3:15:06talking to you about who won
3:15:09Daytona and you were like Derpy Derpy
3:15:15derp yes so in conclusion we have
3:15:18watched it we enjoyed it very
3:15:20much love
3:15:23cheer guc Comm liner wants to know what
3:15:26podcasts are you listening to right
3:15:29now um okay so I just caught up on
3:15:32maintenance phase I was way behind yeah
3:15:35and Have you listened to this week's
3:15:37episode [ __ ] yeah I have I listened to
3:15:40those the day they Dro well it came out
3:15:43today yeah I know and I listened to it
3:15:46today I listened to it today too also of
3:15:50course my trivia podcast that I love
3:15:52triviality they also come out on Tuesday
3:15:54so I also listen to that episode
3:15:56today okay the only thing that was a
3:15:58little Bittersweet for me about the
3:16:00episode that they dropped today on
3:16:02maintenance phase which was about I
3:16:03think her name's Belle Gibson the
3:16:05Australian um health nut who claimed to
3:16:08have you know really CED herself of
3:16:10cancer with just healthy eating that's
3:16:13right that's not a dangerous message to
3:16:15spread I had kind of wanted to cover her
3:16:17for the podcast I had like I I had
3:16:20watched that 60 Minutes uh thing no
3:16:23Michael did a great job you know yeah
3:16:25I'm not going to I'm not going to it was
3:16:27very good except there wasn't a single
3:16:30Mel Gibson reference in that whole
3:16:32episode real missed opportunity it is
3:16:35her name was Belle
3:16:38Gibson I just
3:16:41SP everywhere
3:16:47everyone's GNA hear that be like yeah
3:16:49it's probably good that you two didn't
3:16:50cover
3:16:56that yeah they really missed that
3:17:00one I can't believe you're not talking
3:17:02about your new favorite podcast though
3:17:05what's my new favorite podcast you just
3:17:06told me Joe Rogan you
3:17:10[ __ ] everybody Brandy loves Joe Rogan
3:17:13she goes to him for all her medical
3:17:15advice
3:17:20Great Expectations when snow Brandy we
3:17:22just started watching Yellowstone what
3:17:24are your favorite and least favorite
3:17:26characters okay favorite
3:17:29character
3:17:31Jimmy Jimmy is a new Cowboy my God just
3:17:37learning the
3:17:38ropes I love Jimmy so much also
3:17:41obviously big fan of rip everybody is
3:17:44least favorite character J
3:17:47[Applause]
3:17:49Amy you know what enough said okay so
3:17:53you had said you love Yellowstone yeah
3:17:55and i' been like I should you know I
3:17:57should watch that yeah did you hear what
3:17:59Norman said to me that made me not want
3:18:01to watch it white people love
3:18:03Yellowstone he like I feel so
3:18:07manipulated he's the Jodie areas of this
3:18:10relationship cuz he'd been like H I
3:18:13don't know and then finally he's like
3:18:15yeah white people love that show I was
3:18:16like oh
3:18:19pass scharles Barkley says after dark
3:18:23please tell me there are adult beverages
3:18:25involved um no we didn't drink while we
3:18:27were recording yeah we did have one
3:18:30Margarita each at dinner and I think it
3:18:35showed I did have two well no just one
3:18:39refill on my trusty water bot your water
3:18:42yeah we both hit the water real hard
3:18:44during this recording well that's cuz we
3:18:46went we had the chips you know it got
3:18:49all salty
3:18:50and oh my God we we're working on three
3:18:55hours and 39 minutes this is real long
3:18:57good God Almighty crisp Graham wants to
3:19:00know are either of you
3:19:02left-handed I can't believe you asked
3:19:04that
3:19:06question listen I don't mean to roast
3:19:08you crisp CR I think that's kind of a
3:19:10lame question but yeah I am left yes
3:19:13Kristen is leftand
3:19:20[Laughter]
3:19:23all right let's wrap this up and head on
3:19:25over to our Supreme Court
3:19:28inductions which I have not pulled up
3:19:32look at me ready to
3:19:35go I already had mine pulled
3:19:39up wow is this like a sassy March
3:19:47my name is Brandy and I'm here to
3:19:50say I've got my inductions up and I'm
3:19:56okay oh boom there goes the boom Ready
3:19:59or Not yeah here I am
3:20:03[ __ ] all right everybody at the $7
3:20:05level you get inducted onto our podcast
3:20:08at the Supreme oh God just words are
3:20:11coming out don't know I got we've been
3:20:13recording for 3 hours and 42 minutes
3:20:15currently we got listen we got to wrap
3:20:17it up it's it's currently 12:23 a.m. we
3:20:20are reading your favorite cookies Katie
3:20:23ikenberg Casey's General Store caramel
3:20:26chocolate chip oh I've never had the
3:20:28pleasure I never heard it Jesus words
3:20:32are hard now I've never heard anybody
3:20:34call it Casey's General Store you
3:20:37haven't it's on I know that's I know
3:20:39that's the official name but doesn't
3:20:41everybody just call it Casey's Katie is
3:20:43obviously a very formal
3:20:45gal Jos
3:20:47those pink and white circus animal
3:20:49cookies with the sprinkles know exactly
3:20:51what you're talking about Jocelyn yep
3:20:52Ida chocolate chip with macadamia nut
3:20:55Andrea Bell thumb print shortbread
3:20:58cookies with cream cheese filling bry's
3:21:01making judgmental faces she doesn't want
3:21:04your thumbs anywhere near her cookies
3:21:06Christa sandstad Danish wedding cookies
3:21:10Amy Barker Wagon Wheels Ivy Martini
3:21:14chocolate and macadamia nutc cookie
3:21:17Caitlyn a white chocolate macademia Tom
3:21:21G garage cookies any homemade cookies
3:21:24from the freezer in the garage oh okay
3:21:26all right Victoria Scott chips aoy
3:21:30thins Amanda Ball P and sandies Elliot
3:21:35peroti Anderson Swedish how
3:21:40grer says says raspberry caves in
3:21:43parentheses that does that doesn't
3:21:46clarify buy
3:21:47anything what a raspberry cave don't you
3:21:50wax that every now and then
3:21:53Jesus Christy croll High School giant
3:21:57underbaked chocolate chip oh yes yep
3:21:59absolutely Ivy O'Neal classic frosted
3:22:03sugar cookie Amber Johnson chocolate
3:22:05chip Claudia my friend's mom's recipe
3:22:08for the best chocolate chip cookies ever
3:22:10sorry Brandy oh in your face Brandy you
3:22:13[ __ ]
3:22:14face Hattie take that in your raspberry
3:22:18cap
3:22:20Jesus dark chocolate digestive dipped in
3:22:23English breakfast tea guess where I'm
3:22:25from
3:22:29Minnesota Jen murlock my awardwinning
3:22:33white chocolate chip cranberry oatmeal
3:22:35cookies Jen that's a lot going on in a
3:22:38cookie wow food reviewer food food
3:22:42reviewer Jerica oatmeal cookies casy k
3:22:47frozen thin mints oh welcome to the
3:22:52Supreme
3:22:54cour Lord Almighty holy [ __ ] balls this
3:22:58was a long one thank you for all of your
3:23:00support if you've made it to the end of
3:23:02this
3:23:03congratulations we tip our hats to
3:23:07you if you're looking for other ways to
3:23:10support us please find us on social
3:23:11media or on Facebook Twitter Instagram
3:23:13Reddit patreon please remember to
3:23:14subscribe to the podcast wherever you
3:23:16listen and then head on over to Apple
3:23:17podcast leave us a festar rating and
3:23:20review and then be sure to join us next
3:23:23week when we be experts on two whole new
3:23:26topics podcast adjourned and now for a
3:23:30note about our process I read a bunch of
3:23:32stuff then regurgitate it all back up in
3:23:34my very limited vocabulary and I copy
3:23:37and paste from the best sources on the
3:23:38web and sometimes Wikipedia so we owe a
3:23:41huge thank you to the real experts I got
3:23:44my info from an episode of American
3:23:46Injustice an episode of dat line an
3:23:48episode of crime watch Daily with Chris
3:23:50Hansen and the Crime Library also
3:23:52Wikipedia I got my info from an article
3:23:54for The Huffington Post by David lore
3:23:56snapped the Phoenix New Times
3:23:59Murderpedia Wikipedia and AZ Central for
3:24:02a full list of our sources visit lgtc
3:24:04podcast.com any errors are of course
3:24:07ours but please don't take our word for
3:24:09it go read their stuff
3:24:13[Music]

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